As you may or may not know I am trying my hand at modding the basic game. I have the traits down (including 2 new ones) and I am starting to look at the UUs. Sure we love to complain about some, but how would you improve some. Basically I would like to up them to be closer to Prats but not surpass them (Rome has the best UU and they should in my opinion), although I am not talking about attacking only (Skirmishers are an awesome defender)

There are some that I consider DON't nee dchanging

Prats (2 strength more but they lose the +10% city attack and cost more)
Immortals (Great as they are)
War Chariots (5 strength chariot is pretty damned strong)
Janissaries 9Overpowering against earlier stuff and no improvements over gunpowder, nice)
Oromoes (Love all those drill and firsts trikes)
Berserkers (love these guys as is!)
Keshiks (Don't DARE suggest a change!)
RedCoats (fine as they are
Cossacks (Fine as they are)
Navy Seals (fine)
Cataphacts (close to Prats in my opinion)
Fast Worker
Landsteiners (Charle's UU)
Cho-Nuk
Samuri
Skirmisher
Quechua

OK, what TO change

Panzers
Ballista's
Phalynx
Bowmen (maybe)
Dog Soldiers (maybe)
Musketeers
Jaguar
Hwachis
Impi
Holkans
Conquistadors
Curracks
East Indianman
Gallics
Camel archers

Two I am pretty sure I know what to do

Panzer: change movement from 2 to 3 to represent the Blitzing abilities of the unit. I am undecided if keeping the bonus versus armor is overpowering or not.

Phalynx: Simple, return it to be a 5 strength spear like BTS

I am open for all suggestions!

Phalanx is a str5 axeman with bonus def vs chariot (it;s counter unit)
Personally, I'd change phalanx to be a spearman with 50% bonus vs mellee units as well. It makes more sense..

The Mayan UU is the Holkan, right?

I like the proposition for the Panzer. I am not too sure about messing with the UU's... It may prove to be a more dramatic impact than you had anticipated. What is it that you want to shoot for in your mod, rather than being different?

The Mayan UU is the Holkan, right?

I like the proposition for the Panzer. I am not too sure about messing with the UU's... It may prove to be a more dramatic impact than you had anticipated. What is it that you want to shoot for in your mod, rather than being different?

Um, being different! :D

I guess I am looking for more use from certain UUs. In my mind they should give a clear edge to their timeframe without ridiculously changing the game (Prats do not change the game in my opinion).

And thanks for the Holkan, I will chaneg teh OP!

Phalanx is a str5 axeman with bonus def vs chariot (it;s counter unit)
Personally, I'd change phalanx to be a spearman with 50% bonus vs mellee units as well. It makes more sense..

Before BTS it used to be a SPearman that was strength 5. Not sure about the Spearman strength 4 with 50% versus melle, is that getting them anything?? They still are vulnerable to axes. A strength Phalyx stood up to knights and that was great!

OK, what TO change

Panzers
Ballista's
Phalynx
Bowmen (maybe)
Dog Soldiers (maybe)
Musketeers
Jaguar
Hwachis
Impi
Holkans
Conquistadors
Curracks
East Indianman
Gallics
Camel archers

Two I am pretty sure I know what to do

Panzer: change movement from 2 to 3 to represent the Blitzing abilities of the unit. I am undecided if keeping the bonus versus armor is overpowering or not.

Phalynx: Simple, return it to be a 5 strength spear like BTS

Are all these too weak?
Maybe depends too much on setting (both difficulty and landscape).
While I've had nice Gallic Warriors I'd say the jaguars need +1str (also both really need to get exp'd to guerilla/woodsman 3 before they actually shine).
East indiaman sounds good but I've yet to try it.
I like the Ballista Elephant but Ivory is scarce, I still like the idea of units demanding resources so I'd rather give the unit a boost than for example remove the Ivory req.

East Indiamen are decent enough. 50% stronger than the vanilla unit, can carry 1 extra unit, can enter territory without declaring war. You can rule the high seas until someone gets to frigates. The problem is that naval dominance isn't all that in civ VI.

Panzers - 3 move, 1 first strike, remove the vs tank bonus
Ballista Elephant - causes collateral damage, +50% vs mounted, remove the targets mounted units first bonus
Phalanx - change to spearman, +1 strength
Bowmen - can't think of how to change them
Dog Soldier - is fine as is. Bull is supposed to turtle.
Musketeer - 10 strength, 2 moves
Jaguar - 5 strength, starts with woodsman 1, immune to first strikes
Hwacha - no ideas
Impi - is fine as is
Holkan - is also fine as is. If you want flavor, have them start with Cover, so you'll have immune to fs cover spears for great city raiding justice.
Conquistador - +25% vs Melee, Archery. Receives defensive bonuses.
Carrack - is fine as is and works for Joao
East Indianman - is also fine as is, even if it's uses are marginal.
Gallic Warrior - Dunno, 2 moves in addition to the G1? With 2 moves and G3 they'd be like Horse Archers :D
Camel archers - +50% vs Pikeman, 20% chance to retreat. If they're archers, why should they go to pike range in the first place.

Panzers

Your idea is good but you dont should not remove the 50% against armor.

Ballista's

Meybe give them 50% bonus against melee units when attacking?

Bowmen (maybe)

Fine I think

Dog Soldiers (maybe)

I have no idea

Musketeers

Change their strenght to 10 (since they were kings elite guards) or add something cool to them. (make them flank siege since they are as fast as tanks and cavalry? :crazyeye: )

Jaguar

Turn strenght back to 6.

Impi

Turn strenght into 5? Or give bonuses against melee?

Conquistadors

Not rly a good idea but you could make them need no resources.

Curracks

They are fine and work as intended in sea maps.

East Indianman

Also fine and work as intended in sea maps.

Gallics

Give them mobility? (like impis)

Camel archers

Bonus against melee? or ranged?

Conquistadors are strong enough. Getting defensive bonuses means they're tough to budge, and can act as city defenders. And they get a bonus against their main counter (meaning they tear up pikemen). The only thing I'd do is fix them to make them immune to FS, like a normal cuirassier.

Panzers - 3 moves are good. They were 3 move units in Civ 3, and absolutely dominated the field (since cities often are 3 squares apart).
Ballista's - I like the idea of them causing collateral instead of targeting mounted units. Makes them a strong attacker. Maybe give a first strike as well.
Phalynx - Cheap spears are good. Especially if you don't make them obsolete by pikemen, you give Greece a really cheap unit that's still useful late. If not, then keep them as an axeman with 75% bonus vs chariots, and starts with formation (which would carry over to giving them strong macemen too, but oh well). Or one time I know people have discussed whether giving them march (either the promotion, or just the ability, so that it doesn't carry forward) was a good idea or not. It'd be kind of cool to keep them how they are now, but have them heal while moving.
Bowmen (maybe) - give them shock to start with? Or maybe at least have them start with C1. That'd at least make it so you can attack an axeman in the open field with them and win.
Dog Soldiers (maybe) - people on higher levels like them. If you gave them 2 moves, would they be too strong?
Musketeers - I like bumping their strength to 10, at least make them even with a knight.
Jaguar - Either bump them back to strength 6, or maybe give them like an inherrent 25% city attack instead of the default 10%
Hwachis - let them be able to kill units
Impi - +500% against riflemen (hehe). No, but seriously, are they resourceless now? If not, make them so. Maybe give them a first strike as well?
Holkans - Not sure.
Conquistadors - mentioned above
Carracks - sort of neat as they are. Bump to strength 4? Give them an extra move?
East Indianman - sort of neat. Make them not obsolete, and the dutch have no need to build transports late-game
Gallics - not sure, will think of later
Camel archers - not sure as well.

I think with Camel Archers many will think that the +15% withdraw isn't enough and want it boosted.
My thoughts to improve it would be free Flanking 1, it boosts its starting withdraw rate and allows for some interesting promotion gambits like Mobility Camel Archers at 5XP.
I'd definately be more likely to use it, but not greatly so as this still won't solve the tech line issues....

Conquistadors are already very strong and Gallics are fine IMO
Jaguars would greatly benefit from the same 6 base strength that swords get (Maybe too much?).

Carracks and the East Indiaman are difficult, they are both fantastic UUs IF the map allows them to be. Being naval units there isn't much you can change to make them useful on land heavy maps without making them far too strong on watery ones.

I would either give defensive bonuses(could only work if it pnly applied to hills and fortify not cities/forest etc) to Panzers to make them more useful at breakthroughs while reducing the 50% vs armour bonus to free Ambush and possibly a +25% Attack against Gunpowder.
Or maybe drop all bonuses and raise base strength a little or better yet, can a general attack bonus be applied? Maybe +20% attack?
Maybe even Flank attacks? Theres a lot that can be done for Panzers, but it'll be hard to not utterly screw it up.

Make Ballista Elephants resourceless.

Impis and Holkans would be difficult to change without screwing up if they keep the current bonuses.

Gallic Warrior - Dunno, 2 moves in addition to the G1? With 2 moves and G3 they'd be like Horse Archers
At G3 they're already a bit better than HAs, 2 moves across hills, +50% defense on hills, 50% withdraw, 10% city attack and 25% hill attack, get the normal defense bonuses plus they're cheaper!
With 2 moves on flat land too, they'd likely be more dangerous than Praets :eek:

Some good ideas.

Panzers: I think we all agree to up the movement. I like the +50% versus armor so they can keep up with Modern armor but perhaps that's overpowered. (In real life the Panzers met their demise to T-34s).

Muskateers: I like the 10 strength musket!

Impi: I like the resourcelessness (The Zulu Impi rush, love it!) but I need to adjust Holkan's somehow (2 resoruceless spear units are too much).

Bowmen: An inherant added +25% versus melee and free Shock. Like it as it upgrades with Longbows/crossbows. In my Mod Hammurabi is no longer agressive (he is secrative) so he could use more help ealrier.

Jags: We all agree to up the strength back to 6. Perhaps make it need copper but starts with woodsman I.

Two I forgot

Vulture (Good as it is??)
Numidian Cavalry: Up it to 6 strength, decrease melee bonus to 25%, keep free flanking.

I think I agree with everyone on Carracks/Indianmen, Dog soldiers. Just was not sure about those.

Gallic you could always give them +25% hills attack off the bat, so with G3, they treat archers in hills the same as archers on flat lands.

Maybe for camels, give them something weird like +50% strength in desert. Or if you make them 10 or 20 hammers cheaper, that might balance it out.

Make Ballista Elephants resourceless.






I thought of this but it seams dumb to have a resourceless Jumbo unit. Camel archers are one thing as they were unique to Arabia, plus horses are needed for Sal to get chariots/HAs/Cavalry.

Collateral seams like a very overpowering addition, but due to the low frequency of teh unit... Perhaps it's OK.

Numidian are pretty damn imba the way they are. No need to change
I disagree with marching phalanx, it is not even historically acurate.. Alex;s march to the indias was not famous for it's speed...
Musketeer str10 + 2movement? Or skip their movement bonus?
People really underestimate how powerfull musketeers can be.. Have you ever tried Woodsman 3 or Guerilla 3 Musketeers? That is a 4 movement unit if you plan your moves right... it's the fastest unit available in the whole game.
I agree with the cheaper camel knights.

East Indiamen are decent enough. 50% stronger than the vanilla unit, can carry 1 extra unit, can enter territory without declaring war. You can rule the high seas until someone gets to frigates. The problem is that naval dominance isn't all that in civ VI.Indeed. Too bad that on normal the East Indiaman becomes obsolete before it even has the chance to sail around a bit.

Civ VI. :scan:

@Madscientist

Ok, I'm gonna address all of the UU's. I agree with your "no change list" except HRE Landsknecht and Russian Cossacks. Those really don't bring much (hybrid between X-bow and Pike) and are far from impressive as they are easily countered by X-bows and suck against Archery units. They are certainly one of the weakest UU's, especially since Charlie is Protective and the advantage of having these special pikes for defense is marginal. The Cossacks is one of the weakest UU's. Maybe +20% vs. Gunpowder.

Panzers - agree with your suggestion; keep the +50% armor bonus
Ballista's - make them not require Ivory - just being guaranteed to always get them is enough to make them fairly strong
Phalanx - don't change to a str5 spear!! It's pretty historically inaccurate since Phalanx were good against both melee and mounted. I would not touch this unit in any way. Increasing its strength or bonuses would likely make it totally imbalanced. Not many people appreciate how strong and unstoppable an attack of Alex's Phalanges is... I say give them +25% inherent defense against mounted and a free formation promo (another 25% vs. mounted that also works when attacking and remains when the unit is promoted)
Bowmen - they need a boost.. maybe +50% against Archery units?
Dog Soldiers - these are fine as is imo; maybe 5h cheaper...
Musketeers - maybe +25% vs. melee or free combat I
Jaguar - fine as is; improving it would make it really unbalanced in MP
Hwachis - make them str6
Impi - fine as is
Holkans - fine; maybe 5h cheaper...
Conquistadors - fine as they are
Curracks - available at Compass to give Portugal a wider window of sea supermacy
East Indianman - maybe decrease hammer cost
Gallics - good as is; Boudica's Gallics are truly scary - you can easily get to GIII
Camel archers - decrease cost by 10h

EDIT: I just saw that you forgot two:
Vulture - fine as is
Numidian Cavalry - str6, but +25% vs. melee

No change to preatorians? Are you out of your mind? :( Those guys can tacke unpromoted rifles with good promotions as they are.....

That or atleast give us str 40 marines or 50 str panzers :p

Cossacks weak? In what world? Have you not played this game? The AI loves cavalry to no end and Cossacks are the perfect counter for that. This is a point I got to prove in a recent deity game where Cossacks were key to defeating large AI stacks comprised mostly of Cavalry.

As for the Landsknecht, a lot of people consider them to be fine as is. They're good stack defenders because no-one ever attacks with archery units and they have reasonable odds against everything else.

Even though I have no objections towards the Landsknecht I'd like to see them replaced by "Teutonic Knight", which would be one of the following:

Teutonic Knight (replaces Knight)
10 :strength:
10% Withdrawal chance
Immune to First Strikes
Starts with Medic I, March

Teutonic Knight (replaces Maceman)
9 :strength:
+25% vs Melee Units
Starts with Medic I, March

That's off topic but I'd like to see an order of Knights featured as the Holy Roman UU - it'd fit their theme perfectly.

Cossacks weak? In what world? Have you not played this game? The AI loves cavalry to no end and Cossacks are the perfect counter for that. This is a point I got to prove in a recent deity game where Cossacks were key to defeating large AI stacks comprised mostly of Cavalry.

As for the Landsknecht, a lot of people consider them to be fine as is. They're good stack defenders because no-one ever attacks with archery units and they have reasonable odds against everything else.

Even though I have no objections towards the Landsknecht I'd like to see them replaced by "Teutonic Knight", which would be one of the following:

Teutonic Knight (replaces Knight)
10 :strength:
10% Withdrawal chance
Immune to First Strikes
Starts with Medic I, March

Teutonic Knight (replaces Maceman)
9 :strength:
+25% vs Melee Units
Starts with Medic I, March

That's off topic but I'd like to see an order of Knights featured as the Holy Roman UU - it'd fit their theme perfectly.

OMG :eek:

like Medic I and March is not enough and you add aditional str. These guys will definitely dominate the world.

Don't worry, they won't be implemented anywhere else but my head. :D

I fully realize their overpoweredness but what the hey!

Panzer - A 3-move Pazer is overpowering IMHO. It would be the only natural 3 move unit in the game (I'd be OK with it if Mech Inf & Modern Armor got 3 moves as well). Give Panzers Mobility.

Jaguar - Geurilla x 2

Hwachi - Add first strike, its historically acurrate.

The UUs are mostly balanced - the problem is the AI. If every AI didnt have feudalism in the BC's, the mace and catapult UUs might be useful. Program the AI to sometimes shoot for liberalism, and camel archers would be a whole lot better. And try using quechas against a human... All the AI use virtually the same tech path and strategy every game; fix that and this list will look a whole lot different

Infact, the only UU's I really have a problem with are the boats and the cho-ku-nu, because no one builds boats, and why you would want to attack with crossbowmen is still beyond me...

CKNs are a good UU with collateral and 2 1st strikes without any promotions-but they are not designed to be the do-all unit. They have to be complemented with units with CR to be able to take cities (cats/swords/mace) and protected with anti-mounted units.

CKN is okay, but the problem lies in the Chinese. They have weak leader traits (assume no protective wall abuse) and a useless UB that is marginally useful for a cultural victory.

Panzers - I like the 3 moves. Keep the armor bonus. This is the game's latest UU - it SHOULD be good.

Ballistas - IMO, give them first strikes. The BALLISTA and whatnot.
Phalynx - Good as is, probably better as the spear.
Bowmen (maybe) - They do need a look. Interesting abilities would be available with hunting only, first strikes, higher base str, or starts with a promotion (something, not all).
Dog Soldiers - The game's best early anti-melee is resourceless, comes with a typical tech, and grants barb immunity and supreme choking. Don't touch it.
Musketeers - Allow them to start with combat I or drill I in addition to the 2 moves, and you have a good unit.
Jaguar - It's pretty awkward, but IMO has the potential to serve a number of roles. Easy woods III is the top one...IMO it's fine.
Hwachis - Catapults with melee bonuses ARE strong.
Impi - +50% against melee.
Holkans - First strikes?
Conquistadors - They're already pretty good. I don't know what you want from a unit that has 0 counters for some time after discovery.
Curracks - Improved movement, or free combat? It's a good naval unit.
East Indianman - Really shouldn't be touched. Maybe another approach is a completely different UU?
Gallics - Swords as a unit are underrated. Easier, more likely access to more versatile swords, which are sometimes AGG swords? If you want to see something funny, start them with guerilla II also.
Camel archers - First strikes. It's an archer unit supposedly, so why not?

Edit:

Panzer - A 3-move Pazer is overpowering IMHO. It would be the only natural 3 move unit in the game (I'd be OK with it if Mech Inf & Modern Armor got 3 moves as well). Give Panzers Mobility.

Gunships, which happen to be HARD COUNTERS to panzers, get 4 movement points. Any 2 move unit can outpace a panzer on defense. Overpowering? Nay. Only with a substantial tech lead so that you don't walk into CG II fortified infantry and anti-tanks, which forces you to come up with collateral or bombers...

The UUs are mostly balanced - the problem is the AI. If every AI didnt have feudalism in the BC's, the mace and catapult UUs might be useful. Program the AI to sometimes shoot for liberalism, and camel archers would be a whole lot better. And try using quechas against a human... All the AI use virtually the same tech path and strategy every game; fix that and this list will look a whole lot different

Agreed. The AI tech path is stale, I'd like to see more variety. Hell, even somewhat haphazard variety in tech path choices would be more interesting.

CKNs are a good UU with collateral and 2 1st strikes without any promotions-but they are not designed to be the do-all unit. They have to be complemented with units with CR to be able to take cities (cats/swords/mace) and protected with anti-mounted units.

Pro sucks but actually does enhance the chinese UU. You can put cover on them, and they'll be attacking cities more effectively than anything but well-promoted or AGG swords. Melee won't defend well at all (especially with the collateral) and archery units won't do especially well either. The two first strikes are material.

CKN is okay, but the problem lies in the Chinese. They have weak leader traits (assume no protective wall abuse) and a useless UB that is marginally useful for a cultural victory.

EXP is a pretty solid trait, and IND is useful if you're willing to play for power wonders OR failure cash (even on national wonders). Assuming the wall "abuse" away does weaken PRO somewhat (I have major issues with people complaining about using wallchops when the favorite civic blocking all civic switches and "self-closeness" bugs, not to mention worst enemy map hack detection exist. If you argue these things that still exist in 3.17 were intended, you have no argument against wallchop at all. It's different if you just want a challenge, so don't so it, though). But let's pretend you can't wallchop.

Even then, china's starting techs virtually guarantee a good start. You can hit both bronzeworking and writing with 3 techs, and most land-locked starts allow it. Good culture-press, fast early great person, and an excellent chance of defending yourself. There are very few civ/leader combos in the game where everything is good (Rome has great leaders/UU, just-ok UB...ottomans are actually solid all around...persia is pretty good...but basically after the TOP TIER civ/leaders china fits in with any other).

Thanks for all the advice. I am still toying with these ideas but I made the following changes to my mod

Panzers: Gave them mobility, took away the armor bonus. I may readd the armor though. Mobility makes a little more sense that 3 movement points. The alternative is that Panzers ignore terrain similar to Keshiks.

Ballista: Made them resourcesless, took away the mounted targeting ability. Understand I have tinkered with Khmer quite a bit, they are expansive and Sectrative, thus the UB get's a 100% bonus from Expansive.

Numidian Cavalry: 6 strength, only +25% versus Melee, Kept the free flanking I.

Jags: upped strength to 6, free woodsman, requires copper or iron. In a sense the exact same as Gallics except free Woodsman instead of Guerilla.

Camel Archers: upped withdrawl bonus to 20%. I like the UU and thought a slight boost was required. Also protective leaders in my mod get a 50% boost to great General points within cultural borders, so retreating Camels can help pop out GGs faster for teh Arabs.

Bowman: +25% versus melee, starts with shock. A slight boost in that the shock bonus can upgrade to longbows/crossbows.

Muskateers: Upped strength to 10, movement to 1. I think the French could do with a plain stronger unit givien their history, and dammit Napolean deserves it!

Hwacha: Upped the strength to 6, removed the melee bonus. Perhaps overpowered but they took a very bad nerf in BTS and I have no idea how to revert them to the ability to KILL units (I am only doing XML here). There is a way to change the percentage damage (current 75%), can this be upgraded to 100% (just thought of it now).

I left all the others alone at the moment. I won't change Dogs, I have been convinced they are fine. Somehow I want to flip arround Holkans and Impi's, but not sure where to go there. Phalynx I am undecided about still.

Thanks for the help!

Don't cry if I ask you that :) but......... why are Keshiks so untouchable??? I must have some problems in using them properly...:confused:

Now, my opinions about your choices:

Praets: they stay too powerful even without the +10% against cities. At least you should make them more expensive.
Ballistas: they are the most peculiar units in the game, and I definitely like their bonus effect... You should keep them as they are.
Panzer: it's ok to give mobility instead of extra movements (image THREE attacks each turn!! Could be devastating).
Jags: with your modifications, they'd become a close copy to Gallics; it's better to diversify them; better to be weaker, cheaper, resourceless; give them some hills attack bonus in addition, if you find them underpowered.
Camel archers: agree with you
Bowman: why Shock? they are great as they are, excellent anti-swords and anti-axes!! What else?
Musketeers: agree with you

Extra opinions:
Trebs: increase collateral damage (currently, they inflict less collateral damage than cats)

I would leave Phalanx as they are. Pretty good, well rounded unit. And changing it to spears with bonus against melee certainly makes no sense, historically melee was the reason why phalanx formation declined. It would make more sense to give praetorians +50% against spearmen :)

Panzers: Keshik version. 3 move is nice and fits history well, but it's way too overpowered I'm afraid. On the other hand we have praetorians who just own everything and its OK. We might as well have Panzers who own everything and do it fast.

Musketeer: Do whatever you like but leave movement 2 please! Napoleon was known for his speed. Given the size of French military at the time, maybe you could make them just cheaper? Really cheaper, that is?

Hwacha: It's been a while since I last did modding, but I believe dmg cap is coded in XML. You can just change that value for 0 or 100 % dont remember. But I might be wrong. Ability to actually kill things would be awesome.

Just my thoughts.

Panzers: Gave them mobility, took away the armor bonus. I may readd the armor though. Mobility makes a little more sense that 3 movement points. The alternative is that Panzers ignore terrain similar to Keshiks.

The fact that made the German panzer so good was it's superior durability, at least until they had to decrease the quality of the armament to speed up production (and to use fewer ressources). The original versions (with the original armor quality) was almost unbeatable because it could take a lot of punishment before it broke. Once the Germans had to lower their standards of production their tanks were beaten.

Anyway: I like what you're doing, I just found the thread. Making them ignore terrain is not a good idea in my opinion.

I don't like the resourceless Ballista Elephant. Ballista is a Siege weapon and as such collateral damage makes sense. Either that or a first strike or two.

Ask yourself this;
Is a tank with 3 movements points in stead of 2 a better UU than preatorians? I don't think so. I can't imagine them marching across continents with impunity, like preats.

An alternative would be starting panzers with leadership to reflect the quality of the panzer commanders/crews. In line with your reasoning, Mad, the idea is to make UUs shine in their age. Panzers with mobility would be pretty much like vanilla impi's without the chance to choke with them.

Remember that the UUs are also part of a package. UUs, UBs, leaderheads, and starting techs should balance together.

That said, east indiamen can be pretty good. Willem rocks water maps.

My big beef with dog soldiers is that they preclude a normal axe rush. I wouldn't mind the dog soldier so much if it didn't preclude the option to build regular axes. Is there a way you could make the dog soldier a replacement for the warrior instead that requires copper? (or would that preclude you from building warriors pre BW which wouldn't work?) If you wanted to beef up the dog soldier a bit, maybe you could improve the totem pole? If it were possible, it would be awesome if you could have a regular dog soldier and then if you hook up copper he gets better--strength 5 or else a couple of combat promotions or something.

My beef with Gaellics is the lack of synergy with the dun. If a Gaellic soldier could walk out of a dun/barracks with 2 guerrilla promotions, 3xp, (and C1 for aggressive, and quick subsequent promotions for charismatic), that would certainly make it formidable.

The jaguar has somewhat the same problem as the dog. I like that you can make them w/o resources. But it would be cool if you had the option of building them 5 strength w/o metals or 6 strength w/ iron.

I really like caracks already. If you gave them an extra carrying capacity, that would pretty much double their effectiveness (too good probably).

I wish there were a spy UU. It could have increased movement (mobility?) or visibility (sentry?) Maybe cheaper missions. Maybe reveal enemy spies in it's visible range so other units could kill them (or a better chance of catching spies in your territory).

I like that teutonic knight as a knight. With beelines and slingshots, macemen can show up pretty darn early, and that knight would be overpowered.

Musketeer: Do whatever you like but leave movement 2 please! Napoleon was known for his speed.

The graphics for the Musketeers is from "The Three Musketeers"' time, not from Napoleon's time.

Something that's always irked me on conquistadors.

They don't use guns, yet require gunpowder. Remove the gunpowder tech as a requirement.

My beef with Gaellics is the lack of synergy with the dun. If a Gaellic soldier could walk out of a dun/barracks with 2 guerrilla promotions, 3xp, (and C1 for aggressive, and quick subsequent promotions for charismatic), that would certainly make it formidable.

Free G2 on Gallics would be overpowered, period.
A group of extremly hard to kill Swordsmen, running quickly across hilltops through enemy territory, with 50% withdraw, a bonus against hilltop cities, with fast access to CR promos on top of this AND can all be done as soon as you get Iron Working if you have copper :eek:.

The way its set up now you need to get 1 more XP than the barracks allows for to get G3, altering this would be insane :rolleyes:

I agree they do have *some* anti-synergy with the Dun, but its only because the Geurilla line for melee is unique to the Gallic anyway.
To change this you would need to give the Gallic a different bonus to make up for what would be a significant nerf, other free promotions would make it too overpowered. IMO changing Gallics is un-needed and very dangerous for balance.
They are already a pretty good UU.

The Dun on the other hand..... is not bad and on paper, actually looks pretty good. In practice however, it becomes obsolete before it can do anything much. Unless you attempt some kind of bizzare G3 Longbow/Crossbow attack, or farm AI workers with G2 Archers :lol:. I've never tried the former, but the latter works well if your careful, discovered it while playing Sitting Bull in fact!


Jags: upped strength to 6, free woodsman, requires copper or iron. In a sense the exact same as Gallics except free Woodsman instead of Guerilla.

I'm not convinced on these changes, firstly its almost identical to the Gallic reducing the uniqueness. Secondly as there are more Forests and Jungles during the units era, and the defense bonus for these tiles is higher anyway, its risking making an already hard to counter unit quite ridiculous. Lucky W3 isn't as useful as G3 when attacking cities directly I guess.

First of all, I'm not a fan of giving big bonuses (like +50% vs Something). Extra 10% or 20% is very potent as well, so don't be surprised I'm giving some weird numbers :lol:

Second - I don't agree with some units You want to change, but since You're looking for ideas for those particular ones, I'll try to help anyway :)

EAIW = everything as it was


OK, what TO change

Panzers - No idea tbh. EAIW + flanking against Artillery? Or some extra withdraw chance.
Ballista Elephant - EAIW + give it very slow defense reducing ability (like poor catapult). No collateral ofc on attack. That's what at least am going to implement in my small mod, but I have no time to test it recently. And see the AI behaviour.
Phalanx - I had some very succesful games using this unit, but if you consider it weak, how about extra "Starts with Cover"? Great shields might help fight archers.
Bowmen (maybe) - I'd leave that one as it is. Safe Ancient Era basicaly.
Dog Soldiers (maybe) - EAIW + 20% withdraw chance.
Musketeer - EAIW + extra 20% vs Melee? Good fencers according to popular culture :)
Jaguar - EAIW + extra first strike. Feline soul in a warrior :crazyeye:.
Impi - EAIW and 5 STR instead of 4 STR?
Holkan - It's impressive unit for very early rush. I'd leave it as it is. Or throw extra first strike (or first strike chance) :)
Carrack - I always considered troop transporting Caraveles to be quite strong tbh. Astronomy (Galleons) is very expensive and far away tech.
Gallics - I've given them small 10% vs Melee in my small mod and out of a sudden they became very solid unit. If you need why give that bonus, their weapons are more like axes than swords :p
Camel Archers - I find them ok, but if you need an idea, how about some +25% bonus against Mounted? Horses detest smell of camels.

Panzers: Keshik version. 3 move is nice and fits history well, but it's way too overpowered I'm afraid. On the other hand we have praetorians who just own everything and its OK. We might as well have Panzers who own everything and do it fast.

100% disagree on "overpowered". To make a panzer remotely comparable to the praetorian, you'd have to give it just over 37 strength. Yes, 37 strength, that's right (and also why the prat rapes its era). That's the equivalent over-normal unit for the panzer as a prat is over a sword. Maybe 35 str because after all, the prat does lose the inherent city attack......but one still has to account for how late that UU truly is :/.

Now, the 3 moves. I know mobility has advantages, but 28 str 3 moves is NOT overpowered. The reason is that even a CR II panzer would just be EQUAL to a basic CG II infantry in 40% culture D (although with fortification bonuses the infantry would win...!). It would lose embarrassingly badly to anti-tanks with similar promotions, and both of these units come EARLIER than tanks. Significantly so. For panzers to work, then, you'd need at least spies or bombers (the latter making you wait even LONGER to use them) of else the 3 movement points wouldn't be too useful. Bombers can get intercepted by...anti-tanks, too. And if the city is a hill city or the infantry gets CG III, it's STILL not a gimme that the panzers would win.

Explain to me how that's overpowering then? If you wait TOO much longer to really mass up the panzers, you're going to get picked apart badly by gunships or mech infantry...and none of this factored in enemy rails to move its OWN troops of ANY kind faster, including collateral units, OR air power. A 3 move tank being "overpowered" is a joke. It would be useful, yes, but nowhere NEAR in league with a prat aka 37 strength tank.

Don't cry if I ask you that but......... why are Keshiks so untouchable??? I must have some problems in using them properly...

Keshiks are in a similar class as praetorians, just a little bit weaker (except on the faster speeds). The reason is that they can gain first strike immunity and still have a first strike or become that much more powerful with the bland but good combat line. Ignoring terrain is icing but nice. They also gain promos faster due to the UB, so they tend to hold better promotions than anything they encounter. Combat II shock horse archers with a first strike are bad news even to spears, and keshiks can get there pretty fast...the others just get flanking for 50% withdraw and a near-guarantee to damage the defender (sometimes win), or pure combat to lay hurtings on non-melee (combat III keshiks are pretty formidable vs archers and will tend to even overpower CG and some culture defense). The amount of land you can take with massed keshiks is pretty amazing, actually, although the leaders require tight economy control because their traits don't help you pay for a lot of extra cities directly (you can use barracks whipchop overflow or kublai's cheap libraries, but other than that you're on your own). This is a hidden strength of rome...especially JC ----> the leaders actually have GOOD traits, which is overlooked due to the good UU.

The graphics for the Musketeers is from "The Three Musketeers"' time, not from Napoleon's time.

I know but madscientist wanted improve Musketeers on the grounds of Napoleons conquests. So I used the same point of view. And I agree that Napoleon isn't near as awesome in game as he was historically. Especially in the hands of AI; in human hands he's very good warmonger due to the trait combo. I wish to see France improved :)

I have an Unorthadox change for Preats: Str 7 Swordsmen, No city attack ability, +Drill 1 and access to the drill line: why? They were drilled!

Hi

When people talk about improving unique units or what not I can agree I too have some units I wouldnt mind seeing "impoved". However I like the fact the the unique units for the most part ARE unique and different and seperate that civ from the other civs.

Since this is a game about balancing the strenth and weaknesses of your civ versus the strengths and weaknesses of another and if there ARE going to be differences between civs and between their unique units by definition like traits, and UB's some UU's are going to be stronger than others. So there is always going to be a stronest and a weakest and LOTS of above average and below average. And it means picking one civ means you WILL have an easier or harder time winning depending on the situation as opposed to if you had picked a different civ.

No way to avoid it really unless you wish to go back to days of civ2 where only diff in choosing a civ meant what color scheme you would have.

That said there is also almost always terms like "overpowered" and "underpowered" thrown around.

Because of what I talked about before there is almost no way around there being a strongest and weakest. And to me JUST being the strongest does NOT = overpowered. Thats why I dont consider Prats to be overpowered. Yes they dominate their age and dominate their age more than any other unit dominates any age. But fact is thats as far as it goes. Once any civ goes medieval on them prats go from vastlysuperior swords to slightly inferior maces.

Thats one reason why I didnt mind it when Cossacks and Redcoats got nerfed a bit while Prats escaped it escaped it. Since in my opinion one of my definitions of "overpowered" is a unit that not only is strong in its own age but is STILL strong once its age has past. So to me fact that once Infantry age began cossacks and redcoats where STILL viable made them far more "overpowered" than prats.

Second reson is that as Mad points out UU's dont always JUST have a bonus, in some cases a negative is also added. Bonus tend to be things like raw str bump or a internal bonus like free promotion (like free flanking or free drill) or just some extra internal bonus (like xtra first strikes or bonus against a unit type) And in cases where a UU gets a raw str increase a negaive is usually added (like mad points out prats cost more hammers and lose the native 10% city attack all normal swords get or in case of Vultures they get a hit to their melee bonus or cataphracts losing the built in first strike immunity regular knights recieve.

The two exceptions, redcoats and cossacks, not ONLY got raw str increase WITHOUT losing something or even being required to cost more hammers they also recieved an EXTRA internal bonus. So by taking away their raw str bonus but keeping their xtra internal bonus they are STILL the two strongest units of their age but keep consistent the pattern of if a unit gets a str bump then they LOSE something somewhere else.

By same token "weakest" doesnt = "underpowered" In fact being arguably "weaker" than unit they replace isnt necessarily bad either. In case for jags and doggies--yes their str drop means they not really suited for a "typical" axe (or sword) rush.

My argument here is THAT is the point. They are NOT meant for a typical axe rush. If you wish to do the typical axe rush thing then simply chose a different civ who has a typical axe or if you prefer to try a "superior" axe rush their are civs for that as well wher ebecause of leader traits or their UU's tend to be able to do a stronger axe rush than the average civ.

I think thats a good thing. BUT Doggies and Jags arent JUST weaker at typical axe and sword strats they are SUPERIOR at other tactics and strategies and IF you play to their strengths you can STILL put yourself in a winning position. AND in fact I think being resorceless almost warrants the str drop. Since it just DOESNT mean you dont need to hook up a resource. It means you dont need to network your cities at all to have EVERY city in your empire start pumping em as SOON as tech is discovered. So yeah even if you INSIST or doing typical axe and sword strats with doggies and jags you WILL tend to need more of them but by being resourcellss AND in once case also cheaper you CAN get more of them pretty easy and MUCH faster than normal.And switching them so they play just like any other regular sword or axe I think lessons the fun and variety of the game since frankly if you want a typical axe or sword strat like I said before just pic a civ with "typical" swords or axes.

The 5 str numidian is an excpetion since here I think that DESPITE the str drop they are STILL superior than typical horsearchers in what HA's normally used for but also like the keshiks JUST as good at just spamming ONLY them on going on a HA romp. On short term NOT as strong as Keshiks but it ballances out since much of strength of numidian cav is easy promotions thanks to free flanking and cha trait of hanni that thier main bonuses carry on as they are upgraded while the same is not tru for keshiks so while keshiks stronger in short term I think on average in LONG term by time you get to knights and curriasors and cavalry on average those upgraded units of carthage will be stronger than upgraded units from Mongols.

Now all that said yeah even I have a cpl of units I wouldnt mind seeing changed.

Panzers i agre desrve a bump. For me its just cuz they got an unintended nerf. Before the latest patches Tanks were top units of Indy age and since Panzers were top tank they were THE unit of that age. But then recent patches added anti tank just to keep tanks in general from dominating any civ unlucky enough not to get oil. Thats fine but I think it hit panzers harder than typical tank cuz NOW it can be stopped cold JUST like ANY other tank. And Panzers SHOULDNT be stopped as easily as ANY other tank.

I know most ppl like 3 move idea but it still doesnt adress the it can whip a tank but not a unarmored foot unit with a bazooka dealio.

Now I am one of BIGGEST believers that game play is MORE important than realism. I mean this is game where we use hammers to "build" rock and roll. However that doesnt mean you shouldnt TRY to make it feel realistic as long as you can do so without messing up game play.

If it were up to me I would make a panzer str 30 drop the armor bonus then up the hammer costs BIGTIME like up to 50% more hammers. I think it will turn the panzer into the prat of the indy age which isnt a BAD thing. I mean I think it isnt THAT off to make germany just as scary militarily in the indy age as rome is in classical. This would make an expensive str 30 tank in indy age that is stronger than any other tanks and handles anti tanks better than typical tank BUT once indy age passes and we get to things like gunships and modern armor and mechs at that point age of panzer is over. (other thing I would do is drop the panzer name. cuz come on to me panzer is just a regular german tank and when talking about germany--the tank that makes other tanks quake in their treads and oil themselevs is the Tiger NOT the Panzer :P)

So that would give germany the domiant military potential of the indy age, and that domiance feuled by a VERY strong tank unit albeit one that will be harder to produce in huge numbers as a regular tank is realistic and appropriate but fact that this military dominance loses steam fast once modern age units come on board means it wont be to detriemnt of game play. (also even at str 30 a panzer would STILL have tuff time against anti tanks but by handling em better than regular tanks makes em the STRONGEST of their age, and realistically stronger but not SO strong as to be a vast runaway)

The other unit I wouldnt mind seeing changed is the balista elephant. Just cauz frankly i think its bonus is DUMB DUMB DUMB. And I think it is dumb because there are PLENTY of times when I want my comabat1, shock ellies to be hitting those CR3 maces FIRST and NOT the horse archers and knights. Im saving my spears and pikes for those once the shock ellies clear out the maces. And it is just maddening and plain dumb that game will FORCE an attack order on me at all much less force one that often times can be inferior to regular order. And unlike jags and doggies soldiers Balistas LOSE the advatage of the "typical" unit without offering ANY kind of advantage to go for a more alternative strategy.

My solution would be this-- Let Balistas attack like normal ellies but if they live through battle they will do collateral damage to all mounted units in the stacks a la they way other mounted units do to siege. You can even call it "barage damage" so that like the "flanking damage" it is named after a promotion that not related it to so will be confusing to new ppl :P.

The other unit I would change woule be the hwacha. For same reason as panzer. Cats in general have been nerfed so much that the simple melee bonus of hwacha has lost the punched it once had. My solotion would be, drop the melee bonus, up the hammer costs a bit and make it the ONLY siege weopon STILL able to kill. Not only will it make it a strong but not TOO strong UU it will also just be kinda a nostalgic hold over from previous civ games :)

Finally while this wouldnt be a change I would NORMALLY like to see since thi post started out as a suggestion for a mod by mad Scientist I think Fast Workers HAVE to be given like str 1 and the ability to attack other units because Fast worker combat divisions MUST be in any Mad Mod so he wont have to rant in his basement hehe :) :P

Kaytie

TLDR.
Just kidding :)
Actually I've read THAT.
And, well, MadScientist isn't fond of the gameplay Civ gives him, so he plans to alter the game and root out all those little things that were annoying him.
I've done the same with the game, created very small mod that I am playing alone and that gives me more pleasure than the untouched version did and I fully understand him and his intentions.
He's simply asking for advices and ideas about units he feels that are not ok (compared to other units).

I'd understand people ranting about those changes, if the changes affected them somehow ("From now on, all HAVE to play THIS version of the GAME or they WON'T qualify for THE Hall of Fame").
But these changes won't affect anyone but MadScientist and everyone who will download his mod out of their free will :)

I guess stick to that and give him more ideas :)

KAITE, an excellent post! Particularly the Fast Worker upgrade!

TLDR.
Just kidding :)
Actually I've read THAT.
And, well, MadScientist isn't fond of the gameplay Civ gives him, so he plans to alter the game and root out all those little things that were annoying him.
I've done the same with the game, created very small mod that I am playing alone and that gives me more pleasure than the untouched version did and I fully understand him and his intentions.
He's simply asking for advices and ideas about units he feels that are not ok (compared to other units).

I'd understand people ranting about those changes, if the changes affected them somehow ("From now on, all HAVE to play THIS version of the GAME or they WON'T qualify for THE Hall of Fame").
But these changes won't affect anyone but MadScientist and everyone who will download his mod out of their free will :)

I guess stick to that and give him more ideas :)


You never know, I may have plans to have the mod zapped to everyones computer's without their knowing it! They don't call ne Mad Scientist for nothing!

Now, the 3 moves. I know mobility has advantages, but 28 str 3 moves is NOT overpowered.

Since I have no mathematical calculations which leads to x = overpowered to prove my point, I'm gonna take your word for it :)

I just remember how awesome was Cavalry in Civ3 with 3 move and I think Firaxis removed (almost) all move3 units in civ4 for a good reason.

I still miss Vanilla Cathy.

I still miss Vanilla Cathy.

I don't know, BTS Cathy is great at REX I hear :rolleyes:

You can even call it "barage damage" so that like the "flanking damage" it is named after a promotion that not related it to so will be confusing to new ppl :P.

The rest of the post is quite good and I agree with most of it (other than hwachas, they remain a strong UU). I just feel the need to point out that barrage is ALSO a promotion, and is ALSO tied to collateral damage ;).

I'd almost rather see "flanking damage" changed to "mounted flanking" or "cavalry". Flanking, barrage, and charging damage are all misleading when compared to the promotions (although I doubt people typically use charge, it's there)

Thanks for everyone's input! I have decided to be a little conservative and change those UUs that I generally have had an issue with.

Here were my final changes

Panzer: Movement = 3, eliminate the armored unit bonus.
Ballista: Now Resourceless. Removed the Mounted targeting bonus.
Camel Archer: Bumped withdrawl to 20% from 15%
Bowman: decrease melee bonus to 25%, added free shock bonus.
Hwacha: Can inflcit 100% damage, thus kill a unit (I have to test this out). No melle bonus. back to 5 strength.
Muskateer: Strength 10, speed 1.
Numidean Archer: 6 strength, +25% versus Melee, free flanking I

All others I retained their standard settings. I'll have to test them out!

I like the changes tu Numids and Panzers (Blitzkrieg all the way).
But why nerf Musketeers, they are an interesting unit that can provide defense for knights/cuirassiers on the offense and make good super-medics for the late game.
With your change the AI just gets slightly better city defenders :(

Thanks for everyone's input! I have decided to be a little conservative and change those UUs that I generally have had an issue with.

Here were my final changes

Panzer: Movement = 3, eliminate the armored unit bonus.
Ballista: Now Resourceless. Removed the Mounted targeting bonus.
Camel Archer: Bumped withdrawl to 20% from 15%
Bowman: decrease melee bonus to 25%, added free shock bonus.
Hwacha: Can inflcit 100% damage, thus kill a unit (I have to test this out). No melle bonus. back to 5 strength.
Muskateer: Strength 10, speed 1.
Numidean Archer: 6 strength, +25% versus Melee, free flanking I

All others I retained their standard settings. I'll have to test them out!

I'd still keep the Melee bonus for the Hwacha. Might make it overpowered, but it is historically accurate. Maybe you could change it to 4 strength +100% against Melee units, and have it kill people, so that it's slightly worse in the field, but absolutely slaughters melee units.

I'd still keep the Melee bonus for the Hwacha. Might make it overpowered, but it is historically accurate. Maybe you could change it to 4 strength +100% against Melee units, and have it kill people, so that it's slightly worse in the field, but absolutely slaughters melee units.

I am trying to get away from lowering UU strengths. Right now only Dogs and Jags remain.

Perhaps I will simple split the difference. Either a +25% to melee or a free shock. Still, I thing Korea having teh only seige weapon that can outright kill is pretty powerful as it is.

Good idea to balance the UU's! One idea just come into my mind about the Ballista elephant. My suggestion is to enable them to flank attack cats and trebs. Picking up mounted first, +50% VS mounted and flank attacking VS cats and trebs, would make these elephants excellent counter units against enemy siege weapons. This would be especially helpful if unexpectedly, all of a suddent you see you rivals arriving at your door with stacks of cats or trebs.

why don't you like BE?) they are great for awesome amphibious elephants strategy!

I mean this is game where we use hammers to "build" rock and roll.

Hey that's just how I like my rock. :D

That was a good post Kaytie. I'm not sure I agree with you completely, though, especially with the Prats. The reason Prats are so good are not because they dominate the units of their next age (although they can hold their own) but because they dominate the field at a very crucial time in most games - when your first real wars are occurring. Granted if you are not warring in the Classical Age then their shelf life is the same as any classical unit, as you said, they are inferior maces.

Edit: Mad, are you going to release this mod? And will there be a Fast Worker Armored Division to flank the Zulus?

you said that gaellics need a change and cossacks don't? See...here's the problem:

In a theoretical MP game that went late enough, units like panzers and cossacks would be awesome, because human players spam cavalry and tanks. But against the AI these UUs are useless. A panzer behaves exactly like a tank, there's no difference at all, because it's always fighting infantry, anti-tanks, and SAMs. A cossack has the exact same problem, it never fights cavalry so it has no special ability. See...immortals are great because they actually can fight archers. If a panzer had an advantage against gunpowder units, it might work, ditto for cossacks. I tried playing MP a few times, it's really boring and slow. Designing UUs for MP, imo, was stupid. Stick to the SP game, please. Make these units useful for SP.

Hwacha - Add free Barrage One Promotion, but reduce bombard effectiveness

One thing I hope your changing - Are you making leaders favourate civics accurate? The game has Napolean and both Ceasars as 'Representation'. My friend is a historian and I can post a list later.

Hwacha - Add free Barrage One Promotion, but reduce bombard effectiveness

One thing I hope your changing - Are you making leaders favourate civics accurate? The game has Napolean as 'Representation'. Some are pretty obvious (Bismark = Nationhood). I can post a list if you want.

Thanks, I owuld be interested in that list!

welcome to the Forums!

I'm too late with my list but maybe I will inspire someone for a mod :p

My idea is to get rid of the current bonuses, start form scratch and (almost) give only free promotions. (I know... that means changing the Praetorian... :hammer2: )

ok .. so here is the list :

Ballista Elephant - Barrage I (if it works... if not make like Cho-Ko-Nu)
Berserker - City Raider I
Bowman - Medic I
Camel Archer - Flanking I
Cataphract - Combat I & II
Cho-Ko-Nu - Barrage I (if it works... if not keep the same)
Cossack - Flanking I
Dog Soldier - resourceless
Gallic Warrior - Guerilla I
Holkan - resourceless
Hwacha - Barrage I & II
Immortal - Cover & Shock
Impi - Mobility & Sentry
Jaguar - resourceless
Janissary - Combat I & Drill I
Keshik - Mobility & Flanking I
Landsknecht - Shock & Formation
Navy SEAL- Amphibious & Drill I & II
Musketeer - Flanking I
Numidian Cavalry - Shock
Oromo Warrior - Drill I & II
Phalanx - Cover & Formation
Praetorian - Drill I & Flanking I
Quechua - City Raider I & Cover
Redcoat - Pinch
Samurai - Blitz
Skirmisher - Flanking I & II
Vulture - Combat I & March
War Chariot - Combat I & II

Panzers
Ballista's
Phalynx
Bowmen (maybe)
Dog Soldiers (maybe)
Musketeers
Jaguar
Hwachis
Impi
Holkans
Conquistadors
Curracks
East Indianman
Gallics
Camel archers


Panzers: Go with your suggestion.
Ballista Elephant: +50% attack against Melee Units, +25% attack against Archery Units
Phalanx: Replaces Spearman; +50% attack against Melee Units
Musketeer: 2 Movement, 10 STR (basically, Knights that ignore walls and castles)
Jaguar: Same bonuses, but add an extra 1 STR
Hwacha: Free Barrage I, -10% city bombard damage
Holkan: Require only Hunting
Carrack: Cargo Space of 2, free Flanking I (leads to Navigation, Flanking, Sentry)
Gallic Warrior: +50% attack against Mounted Units (Swordsman with Spearman bonus)
Camel Archers: STR 7, requires Horses, replaces Horse Archer,

Holkan: Require only Hunting
,

Now this I like! Good idea, almost getting to Quechua rushing ability there!

Thanks Mad Scientist for the welcome :) - I really like your RPC series.

Talked to my historian friend and here are the suggestions for the favorite civics. We'll see if its balanced

Elizabeth: Organized Religion. Elizabeth played a major role in organizing the church of england

Frederick - Bureaucracy. I believe he united the various small Germanic states into a single government

Napoleon: Representation works, but Emancipation might be better. He dissambled the serfdoms where ever he went.

Qin Shi Huang: Serfdom. You can see from his bio, he made great improvements to the land.

The Ceasars: While both did give some authority to the senate, they first packed it with their supporters so its hard to call either of them 'Representation'.

Suggestion was to have Augustus as one of: Despot, Vassalage, Free Religion.
Julius: Police State.

Thanks for working on the mod - I was hoping someone would!

Now this I like! Good idea, almost getting to Quechua rushing ability there!

Exactly! Isn't the Holkan good enough already? ;)

One important note to check on... I do not have high confidence that the AI will adjust for movement 3 Panzers. Most likely it will be a game breaking unit for single player against an AI.

I have played previous mods that upped movement and the AI was unable to adjust. If have ever seen AI reactions with regards to terrain effects and various movement speeds you can kind of see what I mean.

[QUOTE=madscientist;8078196]
Jags: upped strength to 6, free woodsman, requires copper or iron. In a sense the exact same as Gallics except free Woodsman instead of Guerilla.
QUOTE]

Histroric Jags made wicked swords by laminating obsidian into wood. Maybe the requirement should be stone. :lol:

Mad: Did you post your mod? Is it a mod of BUG mod?

[QUOTE=madscientist;8078196]
Jags: upped strength to 6, free woodsman, requires copper or iron. In a sense the exact same as Gallics except free Woodsman instead of Guerilla.
QUOTE]

Histroric Jags made wicked swords by laminating obsidian into wood. Maybe the requirement should be stone. :lol:

Mad: Did you post your mod? Is it a mod of BUG mod?

I am still playing some games to test my new rultes (traits and UUs).

Basically the traits all get some additional faster builds, stronger ones get's nerfed abilities while weaker ones get a boost. There are also 2 new ones, Seafaring and Secrative.

Examples
Seafaring:
+50% final trade route yield
free flanking to naval units

Secrative
+1 ep/city
+1 food per 5 food tiles (essentially all high food resources get a boost)

Financial:
+1 commerce per 3 commerce tiles (hence no sea benefit without the Collosus).

Industrious
+1 hammer/4 hammer tile
only +25% World Wonder bonus, no natioanl wonder bonus except ironworks.

Philosophical
only +50% GP bonus but free +2 beakers/city.

etc.........

Once I test it out a bit more I will make another post describing what I have done so far.

The mod's seam to work with the Bug mod I already have.

The UU changes are still as follows

Panzer: Movement = 3, eliminate the armored unit bonus.
Ballista: Now Resourceless. Removed the Mounted targeting bonus.
Camel Archer: Bumped withdrawl to 20% from 15%
Bowman: decrease melee bonus to 25%, added free shock bonus.
Hwacha: Can inflcit 100% damage, thus kill a unit (I have to test this out). No melle bonus. back to 5 strength.
Muskateer: Strength 10, speed 1.
Numidean Archer: 6 strength, +25% versus Melee, free flanking I

I plan no UB changes.

Two test games with the current settings went well until I was attacked, but just figuing the bugs

Gilgamesh (Secrative/creative) worker great until an intercontinental invasion. Secrative was not overpowered although I did have a strong tech game.

Bismark (Expansive/Industrious). Still a massive wonderspammer although again defeated earlier.

My only issue at the moment is the AI tends to build World Wonders slower, but that could be just a game or 2.

I will work on this alot more when the last RPC is done.

Once I have convinced myself this mod works decently I will release it (How does one do this???).