Round 0: A Lonely Continent (4000 B.C.)
Round 1: Aztecs are Indians, too! (4000 B.C. - 2075 B.C.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8090088#post8090088)
Round 2: Gambit! (2075 B.C. - 1025 B.C.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8120306#post8120306)
Round 3: Conquest of the New World (1025 B.C. - 10 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8129250#post8129250)
Round 4: Sneaking Bull (10 A.D. - 625 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8142732#post8142732)
Round 5: Meet the Neighbors (625 A.D. - 860 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8154254#post8154254)
Round 6: Wheelin' and Dealin' Bull (860 A.D. - 1130 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8158020#post8158020)
Round 7: The Liberalism Race (1130 A.D. - 1240 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8167520#8167520)
Round 8: Party? Started. (1240 A.D. - 1415 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8181463#8181463)
Round 9: Prelude to Showdown (1415 A.D. - 1490 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8188010#8188010)
Round 10: Flippin' (1490 A.D. - 1590 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8209723#8209723)
Round 11: Siege and Breakout (1590 A.D. - 1695 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8230955#8230955)
Round 12: Fall of the House of Khmer (1695 A.D. - 1736 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8242152#8242152)
Round 13: The Tipping Point (1736 A.D. - 1786 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8260952#8260952)
Roud 14: Can't Make an Omelette... (1786 A.D. - 1812 A.D.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8269885#8269885)

Hello, all!

As you probably know by now, the King of the World series focuses on Earth maps, placing Civs in their historical locations, in contention with their historical rivals. Here, in King of the World 12, I'm stealing an idea from Churchill's Hat (say hello, CH!) and playing on a map that utilizes ONLY those Civs that didn't make it into Vanilla Civ IV. So we're looking at 16 BtS and Warlords Civilizations!

For our leader, we're going to be taking on the taciturn Sitting Bull:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

And unlike all of our other Americas games to date, our intention isn't to turtle up and reach for the stars. We're gonna be belligerent jerks, sailing the high seas for European plunder and booty! Yep, we're finally gonna see some "Reverse Colonization," as I like to call it.

To make things somewhat more interesting, we're not going to smash our only neighbor Pacal's face in for a while (Even though he won't trade any techs with us until Optics). Heck, we even gave him a way into South America:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

I didn't open up the Inca highlands, but that's marginal terrain, anyway. I also spread Hunting and Archery around to the AIs, though I didn't replace starting units with Archers. We're not going to be rushing anyone, anyway, so I think it's a moot point.

Also, after a particularly heated argument broke out in the pre-game thread, I decided that Europe was a little too crowded, and central Asia was... well, empty. So I decided to airlift the Ottomans from Ankara and deposit them in the middle of the arid Turanian Plain:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

That's pretty crappy land, but Suleiman can Settler-spam all the live-long day before he has to worry about neighbors and, with the Immortal bonuses, I'm pretty sure he'll be fine. Or maybe he won't. One thing's for sure, he wasn't going to be a factor at all in Turkey. This also opens things up a little for Justinian and the gang.

So... enough about the rest of the world. Where do we start?

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

Right off the bat, I don't see any reason not to move 1N to grab the Deer and get the Plains Hill bonus. But, of course, the "where do we settle" question is always one of the most talked about, so have at it. Also, what should our early Builds/Tech path be? Should we go straight for Mysticism and Stonehenge? Or should we go for Hunting to get those Deer online and pump Settlers? Maybe go the Bronze Working route to get that Gold mined?

Again, things are kind of crazy for me until the end of May, so I don't know how regularly I'll be posting until then, but I figured I'd put up the start. Here's the save, for anyone who wants to play a shadow game:

Is it worth taking two turns and moving between the 2 corn tiles on the lake? I have had a city there when playing America and it is a nice site, plus Bully starts with Agriculture (IIRC) so you can go straight for more useful techs.

The second city can then go where the green cursor is on the coast, another great cottage city (if that is what floats you boat).

I'd move 2E 1SE; you lose two turns, but gain a killer bureau capital with tons of food, marble, and lots of riverside. It's short on production, but for getting some settlers/workers going it's great. Second city 1N of the starting position for some unit pumping. You could do it the other way around, but then you'll be moving your capital at some point anyway.

Is it worth taking two turns and moving between the 2 corn tiles on the lake? I have had a city there when playing America and it is a nice site, plus Bully starts with Agriculture (IIRC) so you can go straight for more useful techs.

The second city can then go where the green cursor is on the coast, another great cottage city (if that is what floats you boat).

Wouldn't it take 3 turns to settle the site you mention? I think one turn 1N is fine.

Its almost worth making a city 1SE of Andrew's spot to make a GP farm (and to leverage SB's traits) - that city doesn't pick up the aluminum in Upper Michigan though.

As for starting position, I think Neal hit it on the head, 1N makes a good starting point. I would attempt to get a city founded in Mexico as soon as possible though to keep Pacal out of North America. Taking the stone could work but would it be too late for Stonehenge? Though a SH city there would keep Mutal choked and force Pacal south.

Other city spots, Houston and Mexico City are solid early game cities, as is Boston & "Washington". Those are all second phase though after blocking off Mexico and confining Maya to, well, Maya.

Thanks for throwing us a bone, Neal. We'll be chewing on the start site arguments all month!

I'm voting 1N to settle. Barbs will come early on immortal and there will be a freakin' continent-full of 'em. Don't need hunting to start, if the intention is to grab stonehenge for free totem poles it will be a while before you run low on food.

Tech: Mining>Mystic>Bronzeworking>hunting>fishing>pottery
Build: Worker>stonehenge>Dogs(whipped into henge)>settler
worker actions: farm corn>mine gold>chop forests>mine hills

Dog soldiers don't require copper, so you want to hit BW early. Once stonehenge is out, you just need one settler to send to the 2 corn site and that will become your settler pump, while the capital focuses on pumping dogs out to deal with the barbs.

In the medium term, maybe that 1N site isn't so bad as a bureaucracy capital? I count 8 riverside plains and enough food to cottage most of them. They may not be as nice as grass but with bureau at least you get 1.5 hammers from each in addition to the river commerce. You can wait to move the capital to louisiana in the midevil era once that city has worked up some towns.

I'd be tempted to settle 1SE of the deer. You would only lose 1 turn (same as 1N), and you'd have some grassland that you can farm. Keeps the gold, corn, deer, and adds iron to the mix. Bit lower production maybe, but no peaks. More forests to chop here as well if you'd like.


You do lose the marble, but you can make a second city to the SE to grab corn(s) and the marble there in time to make use of them for the marble wonders.

Either settle on place, or 1 N.

Settling on place allows for more city placing in general (other city can take the deer + iron in the north.

Settling 1N will allow for 4 usefull spots for your capital. I strongly urge you to not settle to the east. That spot is perfect for a second city, no need to place your capital there. Capital can be great prod city, east can be perfect gp city (second)

Wouldn't it take 3 turns to settle the site you mention? I think one turn 1N is fine.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, 2 extra turns :)

My concern with 1N is it is a good enough city but doesn't look adequate for a capital.

2E looks good enough for me.

And this 3 weeks were quite short, right, mr Neal ? ;)

It's a waste of capital to settle all those corns. While you're philosophical and setting up a GP farm is key for any game, the capital would still not be the best choice for that. Settle 1N, it's good for production and has sufficient food and can easily support your early expansion and production needs.

Second city should go to where Mexico City is to block off Pacal and claim what's one of the best production sites on the continent and then your third city between the two corns for all your GP farming needs (though it can support cottages on the side as well).

I still say settling 1N is problematic, but perhaps I'm missing something. Is the plains corn and plain/forest deer going to really give enough food to make that site workable? Every other tile is either food-neutral (plains after irrigating) or food-negative.

I'd still like to pitch my spot 1SE of the deer. Still get the deer and the corn for food and the gold, but there are also 4 grassland tiles you can irrigate right away. You'll have 3 hills and eventually iron for production as well. There would be 2 additional forests involved as well compared to the spot 1N.

That iron may be useful pretty quickly once the barbs start to settle cities. Your archers can certainly protect you, but having melee units will be preferred for attacking of course.

Dogs don't require Iron nor Copper for that matter so IW is not a priority at all.

1N is a 2 hammer capital spot. Imagining a size 5 capital it'll work the Corn and the Deer for 5 :food:, 1 :hammers: and 4 :food:, 2 :hammers:, respectively and have a surplus of 5 food. Those 5 food will be used to work the Gold, the Marble and possibly the plains forest for a total of 15 (if I counted right) :hammers: per turn which in my book makes it a good city. Sure, it'll be a marginal city until Biology but it'll be able to crank out settlers and units at a good rate, while supporting the expansion with the gold.

Unless if you move to Chicago, every city in this spot will be pretty crappy. But it'll get some hammers. 1N seems fine. Then go settle Mexico, then Chicago, then fill up the rest as needed.

Let Pacal do nothing, maybe chop some jungles in S. America, and then invade at some point (probably rifles/cannons). Then go invade Europe and/or Asia with marines.

Dogs don't require Iron nor Copper for that matter so IW is not a priority at all.

1N is a 2 hammer capital spot. Imagining a size 5 capital it'll work the Corn and the Deer for 5 :food:, 1 :hammers: and 4 :food:, 2 :hammers:, respectively and have a surplus of 5 food. Those 5 food will be used to work the Gold, the Marble and possibly the plains forest for a total of 15 (if I counted right) :hammers: per turn which in my book makes it a good city. Sure, it'll be a marginal city until Biology but it'll be able to crank out settlers and units at a good rate, while supporting the expansion with the gold.

Points taken. I always forget the Dog is resource-less and of course without jungle to get to quickly IW is a lower priority. Also can see where the hammers come in at size 5 with the extra hammers by settling on the hill and from the marble. It's also a bit more central of a capital I guess.

However, with my suggestion we would still get the same corn, the same deer and the same gold, but from there I think we would have more flexibility. With 4 grass tiles we can irrigate before CS, that's 8 more surplus food. The spot might be lower on hammers at size 5, but that extra food could mean the possibility to whip, perhaps a cottage or two for some extra early income, could run some early specialists, and later maybe some workshops as we're likely to utilize caste being philo. There is also still two plains hills that can be mined for good hammer production as well.

Eventually we will surely get IW, and that grassland iron will be a nice boost as well.

I'd vote 1N. It isn't as amazing a capitol as some other spots, but all the other spots lack severely in hammers.

I like 1N. You get the Plains / Hills Production bonus and you get gold, corn, marble and deer - among other resources. I will bring up more suggestions later, but I have to run shortly.

I have an idea to run by everybody and see who likes it:

Since Neal is playing Sitting Bull, the Native Americans, how about naming the cities after tribes who lived near the area? So the 1N crew is calling for a capital city named Crow or Blackfoot.

re: Multicorn- I think, with the Immortal happiness limits, combined with the paucity of :) resources in the Americas and the likelihood that won't see a religion before Confucianism, that a capital that ropes in more than one Corn at the expense of production would be wasteful. This isn't to say that a food rich "St. Louis" isn't in the cards (get it? St. Louis? Cards? Never mind), but it should wait until we have an empire capable of supporting it. Then again, those tiles would be awfully useful for a pure Settler/Worker pump.

re: Stonehenge- Well, we're not likely to get a religion, and Totem Poles give us a significant military advantage on top of their Cultural benefits, but would spending that many hammers that early in the game really work to our advantage? We'd almost have to wait until after Stonehenge to get a second city out, f'r instance...

re: The hiatus- I'm still kinda-sorta on it. The big thing is that I'll be out of the country from the 19th to the 26th, so there'll definitely be no posting then. I'm debating whether I want to squeeze Round 1 in before I take off...

re: Mexico City- Could we really beat Pacal to that? I would imagine that would be the Maya's primo #2 city spot... We definitely couldn't do it and Stonehenge.

re: 1 SE of Deer- It's a decent spot. My only problem with it is that that takes us even farther away from Pacal, and if we're gonna hem him in and force him to tackle the Amazon, we should be thinking south, not north.

One side, MAJOR production.

The other side, MAJOR food.

:crazyeye:

Your gonna hate this game Neal!

Maybe tighten your cities in the plains and mountains as much as possible...?

Either way:

I say 2N 2E. 2 Corn, Iron, Deer, Aluminum (like that matters :lol:). There are also riverside plains and grasslands, great for food or production (farms or windmills). The major thing though is the balance of production and food (at least in the early game which matters the most). Food, no explanation necessary! :D Production might need some though. Granted there are no hills, there is iron and tons of forests. In the later game, you can windmill the riversides and workshop the plains.

I think you're going to have a hard time keeping Pacal out of Mexico on second thought.

Edit: Yeah, forget Mexico. There's no way you're going to beat him to it. However, you can settle Houston/NO if you want to block, or Chicago to pump settlers. There are always dogs you can call on to take Mexico City if you really must have it. :D

Without being industrious, having stone or being able to chop without researching BW, Stonehenge is out.

I would REX and allow Pacal to settle Mexico city for you-then take it away with Dogs to seal off N America from Pacal. Dogs > Holkans.

r_rolo's suggestion of 2E would make a good settler pump/whip capital for the loss of a single turn. The gold can be mined after the 2nd border pop. By that time you should have researched BW to allow you to clear the forest on the gold/marble squares to the W of your settler's position.

No-one's mentioned barbarians yet which could be a significant issue. Protective archers will of course beat up most barbs but its a question of how many will be needed and also whether you go for fogbusting north america or wait for them to come to you.

I'd vote for a more unorthodox start: Wander your way to Monty's starting area and build henge there, then start settler-worker pumping like crazy :D

@duck

that is like starting with mali to take over egypt. I think SB should be played as SB, taking the midwestern plains and the east coast and turtling until astronomy...

Do we really have to wait until astronomy to get to the 'New' world? I think with the proper city placement in alaska or newfoundland you can use border pops and galleys to make it over. What's the fun of reverse colonization if we have to wait half the game for it?

It is impossible to go from newfoundland to Europe, due to the ice placing, but technically it is possible to pass the Bering strait....

No, it's not. The scenario has the entire Bering strait ocean tiles as opposed to coastal tiles. Maybe if China settled Siberia extensively, but probably not.

It is possible because you can always have access to tiles in your cultural borders, including ocean pre-Astro . The issue is that borders only go until two tiles on water :p This means you can have ships in the shores of Asia, but you can't unload them, because all the acessible tiles would be mountains :D

That is why I said it was technically possible to go to the shores of Asia. Not that you would win much with it :p

Settle 1 north, make your capital a production powerhouse and expand like mad. Totempole & barracks powered archers should keep your cities and workers more than save. Dogsoldiers will just be the icing on the cake :)

Can't wait till you start this one!

I started this scenario a couple times and once I was able to get monty's start, the 2nd time I wasn't able to make it down in time. You'll have to really rush to choke him off there, but it's worth it. That city is nice and it totally cuts Pacal off. Settler first, religion, maybe?

Ok, I vote Neal plays with WB to open up a route east. I want to see some dogsoldiers pillaging the english countryside!:lol:

At least getting a ship to Asia and meeting people and trade techs.

If you want to do settler first, working the plains hill marble forest would be a nice square to rush that along.

Maybe settler first, rush to Mexico, and see if you can get Stonehenge there? That'd certainly give you the culture needed to fight him off...

Ohhhh, Rubbaduck beat me to it. Remain a migrant tribe for another 200 years and mosey on down to Mexico. Maybe settle one tile SE of the silver...

I think that would be well worth the 5 turn wait, and it would make it less tempting to release the hounds on Pacal


...Also, what patches are being used here, I wasn't able to play the save

Tenically, that is what the Aztecs did: They started in South Dekoda and moseyd all the way south.

Obligatory subscription post. Oh, and I'd vote for 4E, if it wasn't for a waste of 2 turns. I suppose either 3E would be pretty good, too, though.

It is possible because you can always have access to tiles in your cultural borders, including ocean pre-Astro . The issue is that borders only go until two tiles on water :p This means you can have ships in the shores of Asia, but you can't unload them, because all the acessible tiles would be mountains :D

That is why I said it was technically possible to go to the shores of Asia. Not that you would win much with it :p
hehe, i once found this out the hard way...playing the ottomans, i planned on a late medieval invasion (with jannisarys/trebs/knights) on Catherina...
I totally assumed i could invade her, she was on another island, because she had invaded me a couple of times earlier (unsuccesfully though ;) ).
I DOWed here, when i had a big force ready, but...i couldnt invade her...ocean squares...first i thought this had to be some lame AI bonus because of difficulty level (emperor), but then i read about the culture stuff ;)

Well...i worldbuilded a coastal square.. :$ and won the game ;) its cheating: yes...but "wasting" a couple of hours of play (marathon) only to lose because of a stupid mistake like that...naah ;)

anyway...on topic: i think it'll be pretty interesting. Pascal is no problem, i even wonder if he can get reasonably big, he has access to huge lands, but he doesnt have a decent start to get him going. Going south is a no go, to much jungle for an AI to handle well (he could, but not if its the start of his empire, with barbarians and stuff messing up whatever he tries etc..), and mexico..well...i suppose neal wants mexico as well ;)
So basically, Neal is on his own, techwise, until contact with eurasia...My personal experience: getting a little behind can be cought up, by beelining and getting a "local" techlead, and trading to fill everything outside that lead), but getting far behind cant be compensated in time to make a true difference...so it'll be hard!
I think prios are to close in pascal, settle all those juicy river/grassland America has (nice combo: starting location + mexico = hammers, rest is cottage + GPF), and get a caraval ASAP to contact other civs...from thereon...astronomy, invade england (to get a foothold), or spain, or whatever, build up a decent force...and take on the world :D
good luck! im looking forward to it

Right now, my biggest concern is that I'm Philosophical, which (obviously) suggests a Specialist Economy. Now, I'm more of a Cottage guy, myself (fewer fiddly bits to mess with), so I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics, but isn't an SE built to bulb monopoly techs and then trade'em around? Without willing neighbors, aren't I doubly screwed?

Maybe I should spend some free time reading up on the Lonely Hearts games...

Yes, SE is definitly not at best when isolated, but you could always bulb carefully your way to Optics (for trading) then Astro (for invading).

Yeah I think your best bet is using Philosophical to quickly generate the GPs you want to bulb optics. America has some great cottage land (Chicago, New Orleans specifically, and there's a good cottage site near the northern Rockies north of your current location).

I'd give some thought to people's ideas about settling in Mexico City. Its the only way you can block off Pacal and you might be able to snag the stone in time for Stonehenge. Its a killer production city too (as you well know). It is a long trek though.

The way I won as Bull: build GL/NE in the double corn site, cottage it, run specialists, build academy, settle all scientists there. Move cap there if you like for extra bonuses later. Get to Edu/Oxford as soon as you can. No need to fall behind the new world.

Right now, my biggest concern is that I'm Philosophical, which (obviously) suggests a Specialist Economy. Now, I'm more of a Cottage guy, myself (fewer fiddly bits to mess with), so I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics, but isn't an SE built to bulb monopoly techs and then trade'em around? Without willing neighbors, aren't I doubly screwed?

Maybe I should spend some free time reading up on the Lonely Hearts games...

If your going to do a SE, you need a source of income if your not going to use Merchants. A shrine is possible, thus founding a religion all the more useful.

Edit: Also, you'll need the Pyramids.

All right, I've got an early North America dotmap:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/SBDotMap.jpg

This is based on a 3E capital setup, which makes more sense than I first credited it with. With this, we can whip all the live long day, and pump out Workers and Settlers whenever we need to stall growth. There is something to be said for a trek to Mexico, but gambits like that have always struck me as kind of cheaty.

The city to the south, netting the Deer and the Fish, would probably be our second city and, for the most part, should confine Pacal to South America, Mexico, and the American Southwest. That 1N site (Tan) would likely steal the Plains Corn most of the time and would be our early-game production center, spamming Dog Soldiers and Archers.

Our cities on the Atlantic seaboard will be our mid- and late- game juggernauts (except maybe Miami, which could still be decent with the Moai Statues), prime for Cottaging and with some powerful production capacity, to boot. The Pacific coast will never be great, but it's not chopped liver, either, and will definitely add to the empire (Seattle more than L.A., of course).

Our Rocky Mountain city will never quite work, though with Windmills it'll at least be close. And our Canadian cities are all kind of crappy, so I look forward to your ideas.

Canada won't be that bad, those lake tiles are like FPs.
Your IW city will probably be orange, GP farm could be a lot of choices( North America is quite food rich in some places) but I like white, nice fish, quite a lot of grassland and just enough hills. As for commerce, well SE will be great. Block off Pacal and viola! There you go!

blech... so many peaks.

Consider me subscribed though :) Looking forward to it... the reverse colonization has been a long time coming.

Completely farm up that double corn site(Or make a mad dash for the triple corn+deer in mexico) and cottage the rest of your grasslands sites. An ordinary GP farm is good enough use of philo.

I am confused about the "choice" of 3E for Capital vs 1N.

Early on... I see the production much more valuable with enough food 1 corn and 1 deer over the 2/3 corn of the 3E site. As a GP farm 3E works. As I shadow the game and know the map, there is a "best" GP farm in the south of South America I plan to make my final GP site.

I would also scrap the black city on the west coast and instead move the beige/pink city (1S 2W from your spot now) to pick up the deer and a grassland making it viable and able to grab the gold and silvers long term.

One minor spoiler

I was able as a 2nd city to pick up Mexico City. I think that is fair, but agree placing your first city capital in Mexico is a wee bit outside the spirit of fairness

@ Neal

I don't know if you need to settle the Pink Dot/Rocky Mountain city. You can get the 2 silver from the 2nd border pop of Purple Dot and the stone from the 2nd border pop of Black Dot. Pink doesn't have the food to work the silver mines.

@ Stewie0416

Why do you say most of the Canadian lakes will be like FPs? Other than teal (directly on Uranium) the other canadian cities are all non-coastal (no Lighthouse) which means the lakes will be 2 :food: 2 :commerce:.

@ Neal

I don't know if you need to settle the Pink Dot/Rocky Mountain city. You can get the 2 silver from the 2nd border pop of Purple Dot and the stone from the 2nd border pop of Black Dot. Pink doesn't have the food to work the silver mines.

Extra resources are always better.

I really think you (Neal) should colonize on the other continent or at least race for the Mexico City (3 corn are you kidding me?!?!?!).

Extra resources are always better.


The resources can be mined/quarried/fortified and accessed when they are in SB's cultural boundaries without building Pink Dot and paying the extra maintenance cost for an unproductive city.

Just go hybrid at it - run a scientist or two in a few cities to get you the necessary bulbs and academies. Later on, get yourself a proper GP pump :) one bonus from the forest infested tundra is that you can get a nice national park city up there :p

I think settling the capital at 3 E rather than 1 N is a mistake. The math for producing workers and settlers isn't really much better. You've got 2 grassland corn tiles, and third plains corn (that will later be taken away), for 6 f+h each. But beyond that there are no tiles with better yield than 3 f+h. So you sit at pop 3, with (3+6+6+6) - 6 = 15 f+h going to worker/settler production? Or grow/whip without a granary (pottery can't be a priority that early, as you need hunting, archery, mining, bw)?

Settling 1N, at pop 3, you have two 6-value tiles and two 4-value tiles, for a total of 14 f+h. But your growth prospects are much better at pop 4 or 5, with plains hill mines, a gold mine, and a plains hill quarry as options. Say you grow to pop 4, working the corn, deer, gold, and (still forested plains hill marble -- a 4h tile with no improvements). You will equal the settler/worker production of a pop 3 city @3E with 15f+h, have 12 hammers for very fast archers, and have 5 more commerce than 3E -- crucial for getting all the techs you need for expansion. Yes, it's short on food in the longer-term and it's not going to do better than plains farms for a long stretch, but even those will stack for decent production (and they're all riverside, so this will actually be a quite decent capital after levees and biology or SP+watermills) -- I'm counting 27 base hammers at size 16.

Yeah, I ended up putting Ironworks in my capital 1N, production is good enough. Keep yourself from chopping the plains forests and lumbermills look like a really good addition. And its not hard to keep from chopping early - its a very good city even at size 6-8.

Settle 1 N, you can and SHOULD move your capital LATER ON!!! The early stages are about pumping out workers/settlers for new cities. 1 Military city, pumping out City Garrison 3 Archers (Barracks/Monument) will suffice, 2nd city pumping out setters/workers. You can settle North America at your leisure. Pacal can be taken with Dog Soldiers (100% v's Melee) Tech is your biggest Problem.

Do you go the Cottage route for familiarity, or the Specialist routes for Philosophical Trait?.

Early hammers that can't be pillaged, last all game long, and are boosted by forge+ Factory for 1 extra hammer (50% or 2 is 1 hammer) 3 base Hammer city, can't argue with that.

2nd city should be dual corn on river, from there, spam the North America's and build the Native American Federation (N.A.F.)

I've been doing a shadow game on Noble using Neal's city spots, and overall I feel they're very good spots. I was able to settler-worker spam very easily with that starting capitol in order to get the good spots. Instead of womping Pacal I became friends with him and he voluntarily vassaled to me, and now I'm merely preparing my fleet of Galleons to take my army across and begin my colonization. I think I'll start with Ragnar and take the British Isles..

I've been trying a shadow on immortal, got up to 1ad.
Settled one north and built Gwall first, completed in 2600bc (Stonehenge went in 2800bc). There were a lot of barbs at one time and Pacal managed to lose a city to them.Tried spamming and got up to six cities but even working two gold and two silver the economy slowed down very quickly. Glib got build in a distant land 50bc. Not looking good.
While I'm sure that Neal is a better player than me and will have the benefit of advice I suspect that this game is going to be tough and victory shouldn't be taken for granted.

^&^^ Guys, those are spoilers!

^&^^ Guys, those are spoilers!

Not really...those were all played from the starting save, which is something Neal can comfortably experiment with in order to determine the best tech/build/settle orders.

What Rolo and I do is spoiling: leaking critical information in the later-game saves (excl. the stuff Neal could find out on the turn of the save without changing the game at all).

They are spoilers.

I'd put city #1 1N of the spices and city #2 1S of the Mexican gold for a leisurely block with strong tile yields and two happy resources. Mining -> Wheel -> Mysticism -> BW.

Later I'd be looking at the Great Library, Taoism, and Liberalism to Astronomy. It's easy to get the bulbs and there's no need to attack Europe until you've settled out your own land.

Don't worry about any of that specialist economy business. Do designate a couple cities for specialists and run them there.

CHZ is back, minus undue spam. Dotmap looks good Neal- I say run with it.

In the beginning, all was barren. Wild corn rustled in the breeze, skittish deer paced about the forests, and brilliant metals glinted in the hills, but there was no shelter from the wind and rain, and vicious Bears and Wolves roamed the fields. The nomadic life had served the Native American people well for millenia, but, well, it got old after a while. The medicine men had visions of vast steel islands carrying braves who harnessed the very power of the storm across the open oceans, and of the untold riches of a thousand empires falling into their hands. Sitting Bull looked north, to Cahokia hill, and saw the high place from which he would conquer:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

(Yeah, I decided to go with 1N. In the medium-term, it'll serve us better as a Bureaucracy capital, and long-term, we can move the Palace anyway.)

The almost magical shimmering rocks in the western mountains called to Sitting Bull- He would extract them from the earth and use them to beautify his empire. His wise men studied Mining techniques, and the Warriors, ever cautious around potential enemy tribes, gave the village to the south a wide berth.

As the Native American peoples grew bolder, they set out to claim lands farther afield from Cahokia. They hunted the deer of the forest, and conquered the nearby peaks. In addition, the southern village was subsumed into Sitting Bull's empire. Realizing that they were beaten, they sent wise men to teach the Native Americans the ways of the wind and forest:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

(SCORE! I had basically punted on any shot at grabbing Stonehenge. But now, maybe, just maybe, it could be within our grasp! And even if it wasn't, we'd be needing Totem Poles, anyway)

After sending out a band of Farmers to tame the wild lands around his Palace, Sitting Bull realized that his empire would have to stretch beyond the borders of one single city. Having met the wild-eyed Mayans in the rich, rocky Mexican hillside, he knew that the race was on. The people of Cahokia wished to grow prosperous and multiply, working the fields and the new Mines that were springing up. But Sitting Bull was, as always, resolute. The people worked endlessly in the Corn Farm, and every spare ounce of grain was set aside so as to start a new colony in the far south.

In 2900 B.C., that race was won:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

(It was a gamble, going Worker-Settler without allowing any population growth for a city I wasn't even assured of getting, but it paid off. I didn't mouse over it in the screenshot, but there's a Settler hanging out there in the Mayan capital!)

The people of Tenochtitlan, loyal to Sitting Bull but increasingly independent due to their distance from Cahokia, sought to build a Totem Pole to insulate themselves from the rapacious Mayan culture. Years passed before word finally arrived that the people of the homeland were working on a great Wonder that would unite the Native American people and bolster the strength of their culture: The massive Totem Pole known as Stonehenge.

(Yeah, I had Tenochtitlan devote a couple turns to Totem Pole building before I decided to make a real push at Stonehenge. I switched them over to a Worker.)

Once Sitting Bull realized the power of Bronze Working, he saw that the forests scattered across the lands could be harvested to speed production of Stonehenge. In addition, he could peel away the layer of trees that protected the hidden deposits of Gold in the Rockies. Dog Soldiers could be trained, loyal troops much more capable in combat than simple Warriors. And, finally, he realized the most powerful application of all. With Bronze chains, he could bind his people to him forever:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg

(Haven't resorted to the Whip yet, but, well, I figured it would be worth investing the turn of Anarchy now)

In 2475 B.C., as the Workers of Cahokia toiled away at finally claiming the glinting metals to the West, the great Totem rose to dominate the skyline:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg

Many years passed. The people of Cahokia finally managed to settle in and start families during the building of Stonehenge and a subsequent Barracks. Tenochtitlan, braced by the power of Stonehenge, grew in influence to confine the Maya to South America. But Sitting Bull grows impatient. He dreamed of the rest of the world growing together, sharing ideas and becoming impenetrable while the Native American people dithered about, building petty Monuments to nonexistent gods. Yes, more land would need to be conquered. Once again, grain rationing was imposed, and Settlers were trained in Cahokia. In the south, meanwhile, Barracks were being erected, so as to fend off any military ambitions Pacal might harbor. Sitting Bull turned to his Medicine Men: What should his next move be?

Here's a look at the map:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg

Unfortunately, our scouting Wilderness II Warrior was killed by a rabid grizzly, so fogbusting is, at the moment, an inexact science. Which is not a good thing, given that Barbarian Archers are beginning to show up.

Our sciences proper, though, are coming along nicely:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg

I'm researching Masonry to get Walls up and Quarries built. Then it'll be off to Archery to get us some of them supergarrisons.

So, what should city #3 be? Louisiana? The three Corn spot? Something else? I'm off to London, and I'll be back on the 26th or so, so I look forward to the discussions in the meantime.

Here's the save:

GREAT UPDATE Neal! For a variety of reasons:

1. LOVE the writing. Very solemn!

2. You got the city! 3 corn and 1 deer, this has to be your Globe Theatre city.

3. You built the Stonehenge! I didn't expect it! This will not only prove useful to getting cities online quicker, but they are a major boost to archery units!

4. I didn't expect the update! I thought you said 3 weeks!??

GREAT! GREAT! GREAT!

:clap:

I honestly thought that this would be boring having read your monty and inca games and seeing twice the isolated game, but damn I'm enthralled already.

^I thought the same. :D

Well he already said its NOT going to be a space race game. A backwards colonization is doable, though on his difficulty level it'll be tough.


Also, love the roleplaying aspect of yer writing Neal, definitely keep it up. :goodjob:

I say go for the 3 corn city.

Be sure to get your strategic resources hooked up if you haven't done so already.

GREAT UPDATE Neal! For a variety of reasons:

2. You got the city! 3 corn and 1 deer, this has to be your Globe Theatre city.

3. You built the Stonehenge! I didn't expect it! This will not only prove useful to getting cities online quicker, but they are a major boost to archery units!



I used that city site in an Aztec game. It's a great site, having 3 corn, deer, silver, and spices, but it is not a Globe Theatre city. There are lots of Plains Hills to chew up all that food.

I would say the Globe Theatre city is approximately 4NE of Tenochtitlan, close to New Orleans - The one with the deer and the fish and a buncha Grasslands River tiles. That one can get to Size 20 or more.

I used that city site in an Aztec game. It's a great site, having 3 corn, deer, silver, and spices, but it is not a Globe Theatre city. There are lots of Plains Hills to chew up all that food.

I would say the Globe Theatre city is approximately 4NE of Tenochtitlan, close to New Orleans - The one with the deer and the fish and a buncha Grasslands River tiles. That one can get to Size 20 or more.

Really? Okay, well then, maybe that city can be an Ironworks city?

You don't need archery,as super as his archers are, you have bronzeworking for dogs(no resource required) which do fine against barbs, no need to waste beakers on archery, if you go masonry for a quarry you might as well grab the oracle as you have production heavy capital + popped mysticism... I would definitely oracle COL to help you REX out North America ASAP

Usually Des Moines (3 corn) is the GP farm and New Orleans is the super-science city in my experiance on the earth map... have you even looked at the map, Harv? There are 0 plains hills in the BFC of Des Moines. It's mostly grassland with a smidgen of plains flatland.

EDIT: Oh, and wouldn't your dotmap be better if you moved white city 1N and used it as a mid-to-late game production center? With farms, there'll be plenty of food and tons of production. You miss the crabs, but no one wants crabs! (groan)

I should have said the Globe Theatre should be either in New Orleans or Iowa, but not Tenochtitlan.

So you are putting Globe Theatre and National Epic in Iowa as a GP Farm - and Wall Street and Oxford in New Orleans? (Iowa is Red Star and New Olreans is Blue Circle.)

EDIT: I looked at it later and realized that even with all the plains tiles going to Cahokia, the Brown Circle, Iowa still has a food surplus advantage, making it a better place to put the National Epic - which was not being discussed.

Since I do not play too many games to the finish, I might not have a full grasp on how to build a proper specialist economy. I guess I was thinking Globe Theatre and Wall Street in New Orleans because that is where the Great Merchants go and each 3 food supports another Merchant Specialist. Iowa gets the National Epic.

New Orleans only shares one tile with Washingtlan and that is why I suggested it first. I will see how this one plays out - and see how Neal develops a specialist economy.

Ah, the three corn comment threw me off... I thought you two were talking bout Iowa! Anyway, it looks like Mexico City (So much easier to call it that then Tenochitlan) will get the Ironworks and Heroic Epic, as that's one of the best production sites you're gonna get. Des Moines will get the NE and Globe Theater to prevent the happy cap from throwing off growth, because that city will grow like hell. New Orleans gets Oxford OR Wall Street, depending on how it develops. Either Washington or Boston will get the other.

The game going nicely for you Neal.

Ah, Neal, if you want to find out how to take advantage of your Philosophical trait, I'd recommend reading this article:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/gp_focusdist.php

My tech path would be:

Hunting-pottery-writing-alphabet-iron working (For Swords)

I wouldn't worry too much about swords. As long as you have some dog soldiers fortified in Mexico, Pacal is not going anywhere and there are plenty of city cites in NAm. REX north america then take out Pacal with Macemen/cats/trebs(?)

We definitely don't need Swords. We don't want to attack, and we don't need to defend if we already have super-Archers and Dog Soldiers (swords aren't even for defending).

I wouldn't say we need to attack Pacal, and since we've already since the New World conquered by one of the mesoamerican (if that's the right term) civs. I say we have some cross colonization. :thumbsup:

You aren't out of the woods yet - Pacal is likely to settle the west coast aggressively, probably while you're filling out the eastern seaboard.

Am I the only one who's worried about barbs in this game? Protective archers or dog soldiers will beat them 99% of the time but if you've got two archers facing 6 barbs you're going to get pillaged on a regular basis.

Fogbust will deal with Barbs.

Seriously, Sitting Bull is THE best leader to deal with barbs. On top of that, I'm sure Neal's has got tons of experience in dealing with barbs.

Besides, what's one pillaged farm going to do to a 15 city empire?

Barbs will cease to be a problem long before Neal gets to a fifteen city empire. Barbs are likely to be a problem in the next fifty turns considering that Neal has no fogbusters at the moment.

I'm not sure how much experience Neal has with barbs on immortal, the last game he captured Gwall early on and was on a fairly settled continent anyway. Maybe he's had lots of practice in his off-line games.

I'd be quite happy to learn that I'm worrying about nothing.

He only has NA to fogbust. I don't see the immediate problem. The great white north will probably be a horrible mess of barbs, though... Neal definitely should get some fogbuster up there ASAP. At this point, he doesn't really need a military other than the token archer and a barb defense force, so fogbust as much as you can and you'll be okay.

You aren't out of the woods yet - Pacal is likely to settle the west coast aggressively, probably while you're filling out the eastern seaboard.

Not if Neal refuses him open borders. There isn't much point in open borders since Pacal is unlikely to trade anything or be nice to Neal anyways. Due to the "same continent" bug, Pacal won't sail around Neal's borders either... and even if he tried he won't be able to find any coast tiles once Tenochtitlan pops borders a couple of times. The only place he can go is south america and maybe the caribbean islands.

Barbs will cease to be a problem long before Neal gets to a fifteen city empire.

I was exaggerating. My point was that even though razing (I know that's the wrong term but I can't remember the correct one) can be a nuisance, it's definitely not game changing.

I'm pretty sure that that doesn't happen when settling cities. I've seen Spanish settlers reach the west coast of Africa via Gibraltar in my Mali game, and I've seen Inca ships with settlers on them pass through my Panama city in my America game.

They don't use boats to attack the same landmass, but settling it might be different.

They don't use boats to attack the same landmass, but settling it might be different.

No, they don't settle either, see Portugal or Inca on Earth maps.

BakingTheArt, are you playing with BetterAI? Or maybe the examples you remember come from Vanilla/Warlords, where I don't remember, was that bug present or not.

Don't worry so much about barbs right now, what about keeping up in the tech race? No point attacking Europe with Rifles and Galleons when they get Mech Inf and Destroyers.

I play on a mac, so only Warlords. But still. Maybe they only do it when cultural borders are blocking? Because I'm sure I've seen multiple Inca ships loaded with settlers cross through my panama city.

I play on a mac, so only Warlords. But still. Maybe they only do it when cultural borders are blocking? Because I'm sure I've seen multiple Inca ships loaded with settlers cross through my panama city.

They may have been headed toward some island somewhere assuming they got maps off someone. The spanish settling the west coast of africa via boat seems a little more outlandish unless you move their capital to the coast with worldbuilder. In all of Neal's early games where he doesn't move Madrid, Izzy usually OCCs the whole game.

I moved Madrid that game, and she had one other city in Portugal. I didn't focus on settling the very west coast of Africa, and payed for it. I killed Izzy later, but still.

EDIT: I'm not sure about this, but in my Egypt game, Saladin managed to settle South Africa while I had closed borders with him. He controlled Ethiopia, so only the sea route was open. Unless he had a settler wandering around there for hundreds of years, he had to go by sea.

I play on a mac, so only Warlords.

Warlords AI code is different, so it's quite possible that the bug was introduces in BTS with the AI rehaul. In Neal's Vanilla Montezuma game Huayna settled Panama, too.

Welcome to the greatest city in the world, Neal.

So... 26th. Do we expect any colonization of South A? You could truly have the 'native american empire'...

Welcome to the greatest city in the world, Neal.

London? Are you kidding me? Chicago is where it's at, man. Best city ever/ Best food, greenest in the land, home of the 2016 Olympics, and Lake Michigan is insanely awesome.

Ah-HEM! What about the current Olympics???? Stick to the present....

Anyway, I don't want this to be a you're wrong-no you are, so my second question, please.

Fine. Chicago is still amazing, though.

I doubt it, because he doesn't want to war with the Maya, so unless he sends settlers down to Columbia, I doubt it. Of course, he could send settlers down the coast in a boat, but there's no use in that - the potential output of any city the maya wouldn't already have will be a net loss thanks to the maintenance of a city so far away.

Hey, Hey, Hey! Guess what day it is today!

your birthday?

Christmas?

World peace day?

AMICLOSE!?!

No.... NEAL'S UPDATE DAY!!!

Sooner or later.

^^:lol: You didn't know!? I've looking forward to the update. No RPCs, no ALCS, only the KotWs. :sad:

Hey ppl, give neal a rest :p The kind of report he posts is horribly time consuming ... and as far as I know he isn't paid to play civ, so this has to be done in the spare time ;)

Actually, believe it or not (you know it from the ALCs) I'm one of the people who hate other people who nag the person who's hosting a series to post the next update.

I think my post can be interpreted in a way that I didn't mean. I don't want to nag Neal, all I was trying to say is, Neal's KotWs is pretty much one of the few decent things left.

Aye, it certainly is. The effort he puts into his updates is awesome, especially the roleplaying aspects and such.

And I'm back! Sorta. I guess "getting home on the 26th" was a little optimistic. Blargh. I woke up at 5 a.m. London time yesterday, and finally pulled into my driveway at 10 p.m. Eastern. Needless to say, I was eventually seeing things on the roadside and fell asleep before I hit the pillow.

I'm feelin' pretty good today, though. And I've got the day off. Lemme take care of the usual getting-home tripe and I'll try to knock out a round sometime tonight. Tomorrow early afternoon at the latest.

Thanks for the love!

Hey Neal! How was London? Please note if you answer negatively you shall be destroyed.

Cannot wait!!

Cool, we got Neal back and Lord Parkin stepping in on the ALC. Good stuff to read coming!

YAY HE IS BACK! Nice! Your always loyal fan ( from the Toku KotW anyways)

Woof. Jet lag is a crueler mistress than I'd given her credit for. And I think I'm coming down with something nasty, besides. I think I'm gonna want one more night's sleep before tackling Round 2 (especially considering that it's probably gonna be a biggie).

Until then, anyone have any advice on how to keep from becoming a backwater? Or should I just resign myself to it? Isolated starts are rough, and I'm still not entirely comfortable with Immortal yet.

Oh, London was fantastic, by the way :)

Should've gone to Dublin..

Anyways, welcome back Neal!

How not to become backwater with all the land in North America... Now that's a tough one ;).
I'll just say specialize like hell and leave "Cottages!" to someone else.

Hi Neal,

hope you enjoyed Europe, although UK must seem like Europe-light to an american :-)))

There is IMHO only one way to compete with "the world" from the americas. You need to have, what eurasian Civs already have: Contact! You have space, good land and access to all strategic resources. Now you need a seat on the table for the eurasian tech-trade game. And that means boats. If you can manage to caravel yourself to the Pacific Rim and/or Europe, you will have scientific advantage over your immediate neighbors.
That means, that you can aggro-expand into their territory with more ease and less military expense whenever your economy or startegic interest demands and allows it.
This strategy also fits your reverse colonization agenda.
Go ASAP to caravel (AFAIK the first ship/tech to cross the oceans on that map if you haven't WB modified Greenland or Alaska) and trade goodies, tech etc. Research stuff they don't have and backfill.

That way I was able to succeed with all 3 American Civs on Immortal earth 18 vanilla. (Tho I had to WB open the Andes for HC to win with him:( )

Neal,

I've been reading your KotW threads ... they're a great read, thanks for going to all the effort of posting them. I'm relatively new to Civ IV, and I'm learning a lot from these threads and the forums in general.

Keep up the great work!

All right. Short round, but I'm sick as a Dog Soldier and, besides, I'm at yet another decision point.

Sitting Bull was perturbed. The spirits visited him in his sleep, warning him of the development of far-flung peoples growing in strength and vitality as his own empire stagnated. The citizens of Cahokia and Tenochtitlan enjoyed relative productivity and prosperity, but relative to what? The Maya? Their master doesn't even wear a shirt, for the spirits' sakes! The mysteries of the sea would need to be unlocked, but not until the Native American people could ride the waves from a position of strength.

The spirits knew many secrets. And Sitting Bull knew just the way to make them give them up. All research into Masonry was abandoned. The people were ordered to learn the skill of channeling the gods of wood and sky. As the populations of Cahokia and Tenochtitlan quizzically obeyed their lord's seemingly mad orders, the empire continued to grow, claiming the Gulf of Mexico with the new city of Baton Rouge:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg

This new land showed great promise, and would add much to Sitting Bull's empire.

Once the secrets of Meditation were unlocked, Sitting Bull was determined to develop a mystical elite, who could guide the people in their quests for enlightenment. Many of the king's advisors considered this insane, for he gambled much for seemingly no gain while fields went untilled and hills went unmined. On the eve of the discovery of Priesthood, though, a young medicine man named Chuang-Tzu gained influence in Cahokia, claiming that he would lead his people through the turbulent times ahead:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0001-1.jpg

Sitting Bull was pleased with this development. All was going according to his mad plan.

The people of Tenochtitlan began construction of a vast temple, where Sitting Bull and his Priests might meditate and learn the will of the spirits. Meanwhile, the medicine men back home were instructed to study the secrets of Writing, so that the instructions given might be recorded for all time. In 1150 B.C., with Writing completed, the people of Cahokia were finally allowed to return to their studies of Masonry, and the streets of Tenochtitlan ran red with blood as Sitting Bull threw everything into the construction of his Oracle:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg

Sitting Bull awoke from his trance to the sound of wailing in the streets and the weight of a tablet in his lap. He looked down and saw, written before him, the Way of the Spirits, written down in exquisite detail.

He ran through the streets of Tenochtitlan, holding up the tablets for all to see. His Dog Soldiers struggled to keep up and protect him from those who had lost family members in the construction of the Oracle. Enough people listened, though, that a new religion was born:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

And born in Tenochtitlan, no less! With the force of the Oracle and the fervor of the new religion, together with the far-off influence of Stonehenge, Sitting Bull knew that Tenochtitlan had gained ammunition in its border skirmishes with Mutal. Chuang-Tzu rushed southwards toward the harsh Mexican desert to spread the word of the new faith.

As Sitting Bull reveled in the embrace of the spirits, the more pragmatic elders of Cahokia sent off a new band of Settlers to lay claim to the Atlantic coast:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0004-1.jpg

Savannah was a strong city, bound to be one of the crown jewels of the Americas.

Pacal, despite his jealousy at Sitting Bull's success, saw that his northern neighbor did, indeed, speak the will of the spirits. He converted readily:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0005-1.jpg

This was to both improve relations and fill Sitting Bull's coffers immensely.

Fifty years after Pacal's conversion, Chuang-Tzu finally reached Tenochtitlan and set himself up as prelate of the Way of the Spirit:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

Sitting Bull hated to share power, but the high priest was skilled and loyal, spreading the word and bringing in considerable profit.

In 1025 B.C., Sitting Bull, now adorned with the mantles of the Speaker to the Spirits, stood smugly before his advisors. His gambit had worked. Tenochtitlan was vastly more powerful than it ever could have been before, and the Americas were united in a bond of faith. But there were problems to be addressed. Barbarians were at the gates, burning fields and threatening cities. The quest to claim the continent was going slowly. And Sitting Bull stood at a technological crossroads:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

The madness had passed, and Sitting Bull was once again taciturn and calculating. Pottery seemed, to him, the logical choice. Despite his Philosophical nature, Sitting Bull knew that the wheels of empire were greased with gold, and the precious metals of Cahokia and Tenochtitlan and even the valuable shrine could not support his people forever. And besides, the Granaries that could be built with that knowledge would allow his cities to grow substantially. But there were other options. Monarchy would allow Sitting Bull to make himself King in name as well as fact, and would end his happiness problems forever. Archery would be an easy technology to earn, and would beef up city defenses considerably.

The cities were all fantastic, but Sitting Bull feared they might not be enough:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

More Settlers were needed, but they also needed Dog Soldiers to protect them from the incursions of the Nationless Ones.

Finally, he spread before him a map of the Known World:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0009-1.jpg

The Rockies were largely quiet. Most of the Barbarian incursions were coming from New England and northern Canada.

So, here we are. It was risky, but I now have yet another easy way to provide Culture and Happiness, and fund expansion, to boot! So what should the next move be? Pump Settlers and Dogs, build Cottages, and crash the economy? I, as always, look forward to the input.

Here's the save:

Boats. Ships. Marine Vessels. Kajaks. Kanus. Stuff that stays afloat on Water enough to transport men, goods and news to those unknown civs behind the endless oceans.

Not yet Cowboy, how's he gonna use those boats if he can't get anywhere with them? I personally vote for crashin' the economy.. settlers, cottages, and settlers! Get them up and running asap, keep yer research afloat with scientists, and get yer economy up and running in time to recolonize the old world.

More cities will solve the barb issues :p CoL will help with the expenses, and, having courthouses, you might even suplement the research with some tech theft from Pacal ( you can't trade with him for a while anyway :p )

BTW, pacal has 4 cities.... it seems he's going south. Good boy, kill the barbs for us :D

On teching: definitely pottery + Sailing for now. Alphabet later maybe. You don't really have happiness issues for now, and as soon as you link those gold and silver from the rockies, you will be ok for a while.

If you have OB with Pacal, you should send a unit (even an old warrior) to SAm to scout out how far Pacal has expanded. Also, you may want to leave a scout unit in East Brazil to get early warning for any exploring European civs.

Settle the green parts of North-America first!

Settle/cottages/dog warriors/workers.
Your advantage in this game is land. Land + CoL + cottages = research.

Research means faster optics.

Faster optics means access to Eurasia civs. The only real advantage Eurasia has over you is contacts.

@Gagonite: I understand that he can not get anywhere with sailing. But with optics! And that's why I would beeline there no matter the costs. First, you will get plenty of other techs on the way, since Optics is a far goal. Those can be traded with the american civs. Second, reverse colonization won't happen if Neal is too behind in tech to attack the world. No matter how good he trades with his neighbors, the world will tech away easily. But if he beelines he may be the only one specialized on ships and navy, and therefore he'll have something to backfill-trade. The possibilty to trade with 10 new civs will fuel his tech far more than a slightly faster developed infrastructure.
The basic techs will come from his neighbors anyway - no need to develop them yourself. If he gets Alphabet on the way to Optics (which I think will be the case) he can build his cottages and whatnot a bit later. He already has his sources of income and will get some GPs for help.

@Fluxx: +1

Yeah I think you're going to want to start working some cottages now.

attack.
:nuke:

What, no "You're crazy"s or "You Magnificent Bastard"s for my throwing everything into a late run at the Oracle? :crazyeye:

Pottery cottages.

spam settlers

Once your infrastructure tech needs are met run for optics.

What, no "You're crazy"s or "You Magnificent Bastard"s for my throwing everything into a late run at the Oracle? :crazyeye:

What? ::D. You had marble and you pretty much know Europe is to busy hugging eachother for building the oracle.

In the worst case scenario you would have some chunk cash to fund some more expo :mischief:

No, I think it paid off - until you meet Europe you've given yourself a diplomatic opening with your only contact and a source of happiness and of course the +10% :research: CoL will help you keep your costs under control too since you are going to want to settle and develop North America quickly.

As for city names, I think you should do something a little different - take real world names and make them alternate history versions of themselves. Your capital, for example, could be named much like the US's - after its first leader: Sitting Bull, D.C. (District of Cahkoia), Baton Rogue could be "Red Stick", etc.

Might not be worth the time, but its a thought.

^^Sure, but I mean 1150?! That's extremely late for the Oracle, and Immortal just pushes that. It's ridiculous. :crazyeye:

You had marble

No, he still was researching Masonry.

You're crazy :p The oracle is worth half a settler... you could have one more city now :p
[/sarcasm :D ]

What, no "You're crazy"s or "You Magnificent Bastard"s for my throwing everything into a late run at the Oracle?
Don't think that would've been the chant if you had failed :p

/subscribed

Pottery and settler/cottage spam (NE US/Canada). Archery I wouldn't worry about; Pacal actually has a chance to develop this time IIRC. Get it from him if it's needed that badly.

I'm assuming GLH is built already, otherwise that might not be a bad idea to go for with Sailing.

Otherwise Monarchy is the best choice by far.

Go East, young man.

Well, North-East, anyway. Florida can wait until you have IW, but the Great Lakes and New England need your attention now. There's some great sites to exploit.

Yeah, definitely settle Chicago ASAP. Cottage up the eastern seabord. Getting Oracle and the religion will help. At least it should keep you nice and friendly with Pacal for a good long while.

I agree with the beeline to optics. Trading will be big, and exploring out to seeing how Europe is playing out at least makes it more interesting. But first, expand out like crazy. Rex until you can rex no more.

Oh, yeah. One other question: Should I stick with Slavery or revolt to Caste System? I mean, being Philosophical, the ability to run oodles of Scientists is awfully tempting, but the Whip is just so darn useful! Maybe revolt to CS once we have Monarchy and can also dip into Hereditary Rule...

Oh, yeah. One other question: Should I stick with Slavery or revolt to Caste System? I mean, being Philosophical, the ability to run oodles of Scientists is awfully tempting, but the Whip is just so darn useful! Maybe revolt to CS once we have Monarchy and can also dip into Hereditary Rule...

Stick in Slavery for now, then do a big civics change into HR, Bureau,Caste. By then your cities can really benefit from Caste, you need slavery to whip out a few buildings and Infrastructure first. HR might be a little late so you might want to revolt to HR first and then go Bureau and Caste, but you get my point. I know its hard to give up that whip ( I almost never go into Caste myself :lol: which is the irony of this post) But on immortal those GS are extremely important especially since you're kinda isolated in terms of tech, unless somehow Pacal manages to cottage up everywhere.

Probably go in stages. First off, switch to HR/OR. Then to Caste-Bureaucracy once your cities develop a bit.

Pottery and settler/cottage spam (NE US/Canada). Archery I wouldn't worry about; Pacal actually has a chance to develop this time IIRC. Get it from him if it's needed that badly.


Don't count on it. I've removed that barrier to SA for Pacal in my Earth34 games and he rarely does more than settle a couple of cities in Venezuela and Columbia.

Neal, are you planning on settling South America? It's truly superb late-game production land (watermills and workshops everywhere uner state prop), but it does take some time to clear away all that jungle. :lol:

Neal - First Comment - I loaded the save and noticed that you are not working the gold mine by Cahokia. :hammer2: I think instead you are working an unimproved plains tile for some reason. Just look at it when you load up.

Got a suggestion, since you are playing Sitting Bull and representing the Native Americans:

Cahokia = Blackfoot
Savannah = Cherokee
Baton Rouge = Natchez
Tenochtitlan = Aztec

That is - if you are up for it. I will take a look at your dot map again and edit.

EDIT - I looked at your dotmap:

Red = Sioux = Future Capital
Yellow = Cree
White = Delaware (And a city in Nova Scotia can be Micmac)
Light Blue = Huron
Green = Ojibwa
Pink = Blackfoot
Purple = Chinook
Black = Canalino?
Cyan = Kaska?

I just thought it might be an interesting idea. I got most of the names from an World History Atlas.

Regarding city names, I was actually considering going tongue-in-cheek and naming the cities after Sports mascots, with a preference for Indian-themed ones. Chicago could be Blackhawk, a D.C.-area spot could be Redskin, Kansas City could be Chief... Kinda lame, I know, and kinda limited. Could still be fun, though.

actually that's pretty funny

Regarding city names, I was actually considering going tongue-in-cheek and naming the cities after Sports mascots, with a preference for Indian-themed ones. Chicago could be Blackhawk, a D.C.-area spot could be Redskin, Kansas City could be Chief... Kinda lame, I know, and kinda limited. Could still be fun, though.

I like it.

Another vote here for sticking with slavery for now.

Regarding city names, I was actually considering going tongue-in-cheek and naming the cities after Sports mascots, with a preference for Indian-themed ones. Chicago could be Blackhawk, a D.C.-area spot could be Redskin, Kansas City could be Chief... Kinda lame, I know, and kinda limited. Could still be fun, though.

Either that, or name them after previously-existing Native-American settlements in the area(s). If there wasn't one in the area or anywhere nearby, then make one up or use yer idea.

Doesn't matter a ton though, lol, and it's up to ye.

Don't count on it. I've removed that barrier to SA for Pacal in my Earth34 games and he rarely does more than settle a couple of cities in Venezuela and Columbia.

Gotta love the AI. :confused:

A rax in a low-production / future commerce center like Baton Rouge? :shake:

Regarding city names, I was actually considering going tongue-in-cheek and naming the cities after Sports mascots, with a preference for Indian-themed ones. Chicago could be Blackhawk, a D.C.-area spot could be Redskin, Kansas City could be Chief... Kinda lame, I know, and kinda limited. Could still be fun, though.

Hmm - Maybe you will get the Sports League quest. :lol:

ADDIT: You were asking about how to play a New World Civ and not be a backwater. It looks like you are one of two civs in the New World against 10 civs in the Old World. I expect it to be not quite as bad as 15 civs on the Old World trading with each other - and your tech trading partner is Financial and therefore may be useful.

I generally agree with the advice you have been given to get to Caravels and reach Europe (specifically Portugal) and join the party, so to speak.

I will also add that you, as Sitting Bull, are Philisophical. You also have access to both Marble and Stone. What do you think of building a couple or few wonders instead of crashing the economy? What do you think of the Great Library? It will get you 16 Great Scientist Points with no help at all.

Also - If you decide to chase the Great Library, that means you will be pretty close to Music. Do you think chasing the free Great Artist for a Golden Age is worth it?

It looks like you snagged the Oracle and got a Code of Laws / Confucianism Slingshot - Brilliant! It also means you can consider switching from Slavery to Caste System at some point in the future. I think it is too early to switch now because you are still building stuff and Caste System slows that down.

You will be getting tons of Great Scientists and Great Merchants once you make the switch.

You do not really need to Rex in my opinion because you have only one rival for your territory. Smart EXpansion is good.

On the other side - if you build a Hybrid economy, I think you will have difficulty crashing it - especially if you settle the Great Merchants and build Academies.

Disclaimer: I am still at the Wonder-Addiction and Build-Addiction stages of learning the game. So I am not really sure how useful what I have said really is. However, it will be interesting to see how you play this one out.

The Great Library would definitely help in his case, the problem is getting to it first. He was damned lucky to get the Oracle as it is, especially on Immortal and this late into the game. But it might not hurt to go for the GLibrary..

A boring round, but a necessary one.

The elders were relieved. Sitting Bull had fully recovered from his religious mania, and was once again focused on bringing the continent, with all of its savage grandeur, under his control. The first target was the west coast, where the settlers founded the community of Laker:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0000-2.jpg

The people there spoke of contention with the forces of magic in the near future for total supremacy. Sitting Bull's agents considered this a heresy, and a dangerous heresy at that. Those who preached this philosophy were quickly rounded up and worked to death building Clam nets to feed the empire. No more was said of the matter.

In the east, north along the coast from the city of Brave (for that is what Savannah was called in those days), another tribe found a home. This was to be known as the Islander people:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0002-2.jpg

The Islander tribe were a malcontent lot, feeling themselves inferior to the Rangers of the forest and the Devils to the south. Sitting Bull sent Dog Soldiers out in search of these mysterious tribes, but they were nowhere to be found. The stories of the Devils, in particular, though, disturbed him, so he made sure to keep sentries posted at all times in the surrounding hills.

By this time, most of the choicer lands were tamed and settled. The northern tundra still boiled with uncontrolled savagery, but that would not last long. It was time to throw open the borders with the Maya, welcoming their valuable trade goods into the empire:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0003-2.jpg

Pacal was cautioned, though, that any bands of Settlers seen near Tenochtitlan would be dealt with severely.

In 500 B.C., the economic situation was grim. Sitting Bull knew that the new Cottages being built on the Gulf Coast and the Atlantic seaboard would bear fruit in time, and that the new cities would become profitable. But, much like apple tree seedlings, for now they were burdens, leeching the coffers dry. A chance discovery in the Cahokia mines, though, went a long way toward easing this hardship:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0004-2.jpg

While such a boon would be inconsequential in later epochs (which is when I usually get this event), at this point it was sorely needed. The corner of Sitting Bull's mouth lifted in a smile. The spirits smiled upon him yet.

The money funded an expansion northward from Laker, into the rainy northwest, where the tribe of the Seahawk laid down roots:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0005-2.jpg

The Seahawk were a proud people, though many claimed that much of their recent success was due simply to inferior competition.

With the great Totem Stonehenge extending its wings from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and with the Way of the Spirit and places of learning popping up across the empire, the mysterious Gibbon recognized the Native American empire as the most cultured on the globe:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0006-1.jpg

This was no major accomplishment, but it was nevertheless a badge of honor that Sitting Bull would wear proudly in the face of the Empires across the Sea.

In 320 B.C., the noble Maya completed a worthwhile beeline of their own:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0007-1.jpg

Monarchy was a powerful secret. Sitting Bull wished he could convince Pacal to share it. But while Pacal was Pleased with his northern neighbors, he still guarded his knowledge jealously, and there was no way to share the technology even if he were so inclined.

The people of Brave were willing to share their secrets, though:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0008-1.jpg

Sitting Bull thought long and hard, and finally decided to fund the wing. It was a minor benefit, but over the long years to come, and with the future multipliers to be considered, it would be worthwhile. Moreso than an extra turn of research would have been.

Shortly thereafter, a single Archer wandered out of the Florida Everglades:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0009-2.jpg

He was easily dispatched. He was nevertheless honored, as the last element of savagery to come from that fetid swamp. Ever after, the people of Brave, aided by the watchful eyes of the great Stonehenge, kept the peninsula supervised.

In 230 B.C., the city of Hawkeye was finally founded east of Cahokia:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0010-1.jpg

The people of Hawkeye were skilled wrestlers, but lacked competence in any other major sports. This was of no consequence to Sitting Bull, who only wanted them to grow fat and multiply with the help of the abundant local corn. Soon, with a booming population, it would become a major piece of the empire.

Sojourner Truth was born in Tenochtitlan:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0011-1.jpg

He spoke of Golden Ages and the secrets of Polytheism. Sitting Bull considered briefly, then hardened his heart and had him join the priests of the Confucian Shrine, providing Hammers and gathering Gold.

As the time came near for the calendar to turn to the A.D.'s, Sitting Bull founded a final city north of Cahokia:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0013-1.jpg

It was hoped that Blue Bomber would hold back the savage incursions from the Canadian tundra. The people of Blue Bomber were unorthodox, and played by their own decidedly odd set of rules. But they served their purpose, and, with loyal Dog Soldiers roaming the streets, they offered no rebellion.

By 10 A.D., the conquest of the New World was largely complete. The northern tundra still spawned the occasional barbarian, but things were under control. The Old World, though, would be a significantly tougher for to crack:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0015-1.jpg

Philosophy? In 10 A.D.? Sitting Bull knew that he had his work cut out for him.

He laid out his map of the empire:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0016-1.jpg

A band of intrepid Settlers was on its way to Moosonee on the corner of James Bay in Ontario (A town of 3,000- So, no, it doesn't have any sports teams!). Workers were in the process of converting the forests to Villages. Some elders spoke of living with the land, but Sitting Bull dismissed such notions out of hand. The world would need to be conquered, and trees would only help Sitting Bull do that if they were sawed and hammered into ships.

He laid out detailed accounts of the various tribes:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0017-1.jpg

Green Wave, once Baton Rouge, was, until Hawkeye was up and running, a land of Scientists and Hamlets. Cahokia had been kept at a small population, using its few powerful resources to fuel a steady output of Workers and Settlers. Now, though, it was a time for growth.

Finally, Sitting Bull called in his wise men, who outlined the Path of the Seer which would take them over the oceans:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0018.jpg

I figure Metal Casting-Machinery, then a quick dip to grab Archery so as to get some Totem Pole Protective Archers up and running. Then continue on to Compass and Optics, and meet the neighbors. So does that sound like a good plan? Any other cities that should be priorities? Am I doing anything remarkably stupid?

Here's the save:

If Pacal doesn't declare at pleased (which I think he doesnt), archery isn't nessecary. In fact, besides the cheap garrisons for HR, archers would be a waste. There's something to be said of training some archery units before the totem pole is obsolete, but now is too soon.

Your happiness issues are probably better dealt with by forges and securing a source of whales and furs. Trade for some gems with Pacal, and you'll have plenty of room for vertical growth without incurring high maintainance on militairy.

I'd consider grabbing CS first... Bureaucracy will be immensely helpful, otherwise optics beeline sounds reasonable... if you really want protective archers go ahead I guess, but archery seems completely unnecessary.

Forges + HR will help with happiness, I thought AI's traded monarchy + alpha regardless of number of people known... Just wait for Pacal to grab alpha and you can trade for both.

Your choice of city names is pretty funny!

Your Blue Bomber city is closer to Edmonton than to Winnipeg, but the way the earth map is setting up, I would not care to call the city "Oiler." However, the "Eskimos" play the same unorthodox game as the "Blue Bombers."

EDIT: I think your dotmap shows another one pretty far to the NW anyway.

I have to run, but I will open your save shortly.

Sitting Bull sent Dog Soldiers out in search of these mysterious tribes, but they were nowhere to be found. The stories of the Devils, in particular, though, disturbed him, so he made sure to keep sentries posted at all times in the surrounding hills.

Are you from New Jersey or are you just familiar with the legend?

I would only consider archery if you plan on having a lot of gold to mass-upgrade later for the new world reverse conquest. Otherwise Pacal isn't really a threat.

Pacal will trade monarchy even if it's a monopoly tech. Alphabet and monarchy are exceptions to the normal monopoly trade rule.

Pacal likes Hereditary Rule, so with that and religion you will have him at friendly in no time.

He can declare at pleased, but usually doesn't.

Are you from New Jersey or are you just familiar with the legend?

I'm familiar with the legend (and I have some family up there), but that was more a reference to the hockey team :)

you have a lot of sport-referenced city names :)

@pianoman1242

Regarding city names, I was actually considering going tongue-in-cheek and naming the cities after Sports mascots, with a preference for Indian-themed ones. Chicago could be Blackhawk, a D.C.-area spot could be Redskin, Kansas City could be Chief... Kinda lame, I know, and kinda limited. Could still be fun, though.

Neal, once you get Archery and Machinery, why not some uber totem pole / protective buffed Crossbowman to suppliment the defense of your soon-to-be offense? Ya got Iron, and those elite crossbowman will be awesome in defending your stacks from the Europeans.

@nbcman: :blush: oops, totally missed that part; thanks for pointing it out. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong (I know I tend to be, just ask my wife :rolleyes:), but isn't Islander located more or less in Boston? And don't the Islanders play in New York?

If you hate Boston (and I don't have any problems with that) that would explain it too.

Or I'm just missing something.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I know I tend to be, just ask my wife :rolleyes:), but isn't Islander located more or less in Boston? And don't the Islanders play in New York?

If you hate Boston (and I don't have any problems with that) that would explain it too.

Or I'm just missing something.

My thoughts exactly...Besides there are sports teams in NY besides just the islanders you know!

I think skipping archery for now would be fine and just make a mad dash for optics.

My thoughts exactly...Besides there are sports teams in NY besides just the islanders you know!

the teams that matter more, and best in the world. I'm looking at you Yankees! not so much with the Mets. Giants are good, Jets are..like the Mets...who are just like the Nets...who are just mediocre.

Hello! I just subscribed especially so I could reply to this thread. I've been lurking in your Throne Room for some time... Loving your work. Getting Stonehenge was essential, getting the Oracle and Confucianism slingshot was mightily bold - bravo! I think you'll get Monarchy by trade pretty soon, and the Mayans will stay nice and will struggle with jungle while you quickly outpace them in tech.

The problem is definitely making contact with Europe before you're hopelessly behind, so optics is vital right now. I would build forges, then Caste System immediately, Monarchy a.s.a.p. Then see what you find across the Atlantic.

I've been playing a game as Sitting Bull with Maya, Aztecs and Incas all in place and guess what? I have to spend so much effort stopping the stacks of catapults and jaguars with my protective archery units that I'm getting nowhere. Next time, Monty dies before he settles a second city.

re: Islander- My bad on pegging the site as New York rather than Boston. It can be tough to precisely locate real-life analogues on this map. But the reason I went with Islander rather than, say, Giant or Yankee is simply because Islander sounds more like a Native American tribe. The Islanders are even more of a whipping boy than the Mets. Believe me, I know. Hence their inferiority complex :)

re: Monarchy- So that and Alphabet aren't subject to "monopoly laws"? Huh. Good to know.

re: Archery- I dunno, I was thinking that I could do some immediate damage to, say, Portugal or England with a fleet full of super-promoted Crossbows. If that's an impossible dream, then I'll relent. But it would only be a short detour, anyway...

The Dark One- Welcome! Always good to see a new face!

Well at least you didn't call it Dodger.

I like the idea of leveraging your totem poles to build uber x-bow or longbow units. Can you crank out Drill promoted rifles with them?

By the time he has astronomy to get to the Old World, the AI's will likely have knights and such. XBows won't be that useful then and there. But it could be useful against Pacal, say.

re: Islander- My bad on pegging the site as New York rather than Boston. It can be tough to precisely locate real-life analogues on this map. But the reason I went with Islander rather than, say, Giant or Yankee is simply because Islander sounds more like a Native American tribe. The Islanders are even more of a whipping boy than the Mets. Believe me, I know. Hence their inferiority complex :)


Well, as long as it wasn't the Yankees :vomit:or Patriots :espionage:, I'm fine with it...

Great game so far! I'd seriously consider grabbing / trading for anything that will give you some happiness AND see if you can fit in getting Currency somewhere. The traderoutes, marketplaces and the option to build gold are fantastic. The traderoutes will give you a stronger financial backbone, and the marketplaces will make sure you can crank up the slider a bit more. Especially once those happiness resources/buildings kick in you're going to want more traderoutes and marketplaces!

But hey, it's not like you didn't already know that. *poster is a currency fanatic*

I would go alphabet now.....

Mind explaining why he should go alphabet? (Aside the obvious! But I know that a lot of non-emperor players read this too and it might lead them to new insights. Haha, or me!)

Spies + research. I'm not expecting Pacal to trade anything, but, as Neal has CoL and can build courthouses, tech theft on pacal might be a good way of suplement the teching. Research is just a way of being able to lower the slider to a minimum and still having some teching, regardless of hiring specs.

I guess you can't have both. You can either infrastructure up with monarchy, alphabet and whatnot XOR race to optics and contact Eurasia. Time plays against you techwise, if you sit in the americas. Making contact gets you an advance over your american neighbors but the later you arrive and old world, the bigger the tech-gap.
If you still want the game to be reverse-Colonization (which I would enthusiastically support!) then you'll be forced to beeline Navy-Tech. You don't wanna bring your swords to a shoot-out, would you?

Monarchy(Mayans), Currency, COL(he already has) are absolutely necessary, then he can head optics, he needs to grow his cities and get rudimentary stuff up, optics as opposed to lib beeline is fine I guess, but Monarchy + Currency will help his empire grow exponentially in terms of trade routes, building wealth, growing some cottages on his juicy land.

If he researches like Alpha-Currency he can trade for monarchy then head towards optics... Personally I would grab CS too for bureaucracy, but his capital atm isn't very commerce heavy so optics could be a reasonable option.

There are two things you want from optics: A) caravels and B) Trade bait. You are going to be behind in techs when you make contact, so you don't want to show up and find half of your new trading partners have already hit it.

So, beeline optics without delay, even for cheapie techs. And build a scout or missionary on east and west coasts, and maybe even set up some pre-chops for caravels to hit the road running.

Trade navy Techs on the Optics beeline for Monarchy and Currency.
Once you made contact, trade navy techs for Eurasian high-tech. One tech they don't have (and if they don't beeline something like optics, they all won't have it) will give you many techs you lack. <hypnotic glare>believe me!</hypnotic glare>

Currency! it will pay for itself by the time you get to optics!

One other question: I've got a Great Scientist on the way in Green Wave. Academy? Or bulb Mathematics?

I would build the Academy in Green Wave. You only have one trade partner so you will not get much chance to trade for more techs.

One other question: I've got a Great Scientist on the way in Green Wave. Academy? Or bulb Mathematics?

Since the overall goal right now is to contact the Old World ASAP, I was about to suggest saving him and another GS for bulbing Compass & Optics, but I see you got to CoL via Meditation, so you'd have to research Math, Alphabet & Philosophy before you could get to Compass & Optics. Maybe you could save him for Philosophy, swap to Pacifism and then pop out Great Scientists to bulb along the Optics -> Astronomy line, but that would require avoiding CS & Theology.

Am I doing anything remarkably stupid?


Referring to Sojourner Truth as a man strikes me as such:) I guess it's easy to do since they only have one sprite...

Bulb him. Anything that gets you faster to Optics. You will tech up fast, once contact is established. Ignore your neighbors :-)

Don't bulb , atleast now. Bulbing ancient techs is a waste of beakers and you can't broker the tech anyway.

I agree with r_rolo1 - so bulb it later. Although: Since I don't shadowgame Neal atm, I can't really say whether the academy would provide more beakers for the race. But since Optics isnt too far away, I'd guess bilbing speeds you more than the academy.
I know that's not a good long term strat, but I see that game as a tech-race against the clock.

re: Moosonee -- Its close enough, I'd say just call it "Maple Leaf" or "Senator" :D

All right, guys. I'm frustrated. Those who have been poking through the save games and all that, by all means, read on. Those who would prefer to maintain "the purity of the narrative" may want to skip this.
I feel like I've already lost, here. Pacal is running away with the tech race. PACAL! He gets Alphabet a couple of turns after the save, and he's got a ton of techs that we don't. The only thing we've got on him is Code of Laws, which he'll give us Animal Husbandry for. And if I don't make the trade, he just uses a Spy to steal CoL from me! Pacal has won the Theology race to found Christianity AND he's researching Engineering while I'm struggling to reach Metal Casting ON A BEELINE. And if Pacal is leaving me in the dust like that, what in God's name is Eurasia doing?

Basically, am I screwed? I'm getting fed up with things, and I'm almost tempted to backslide a level or two. But if you all say that I'm okay, I'll persevere. Thanks.

@neal
Without looking at the save: I don't think you should be too afraid. You invested your energy in expansion; the quickest way to a [relatievely] early tech lead is building only a couple cities and growing them, rather than colonizing an entire continent. You will overtake pacal once your cities are up and running...

Neal


Is it possible to win with Sitting Bull on Immortal... Yes. I am sure it is. However I think your goal of an agressive SB on Immortal may be a bridge too far.

The amount of tech trading you need to over come in the old world is staggering. Before SB can get going you will be disadvantaged in techs, so old world expansion will be difficult.

In my game which I did not finish, I played a typical new world strategy (isolation and expansion) which I was able to compete with the old world because of the size of my empire.

I would crank it back to Monarch to have a chance at your goal, which world still be very tough.

Good luck!

Neal, in regards to your spoiler...

You're so used to romping over everyone on Earth18 that you've forgotten how it is to struggle, then surge ahead after your empire comes into its own. Don't give up. You may have a fight on your hands, but together we can win! Once all your continent is going you can declare on the stupid AI and eventually win. A reverse colonization may be out, but you can still win this.

Neal, find a good science city, build a library, then put two scientists.
:stupid:

Build Research in all established cities except for Military Pump.

re: Charles Li- See Green Wave. ;)

re: Everyone else- *sigh* All right. Let's do this. New round tomorrow.

21 BASE COMMERANCE NEAL! What did you do? 5 Towns? (Or, more likely, 6 x Hamlets? 1 x Deer?)

And the AI is STILL Out teching you... Wow... Immortal is harder than I thought!

All I can say is that be happy that your capital is in a central location, and that a few whips will finish infranstructure and let you atlantic powerhouses grow.

There's always the Internet and a SS victory

Just remember your MM victory! If you can win after a start like that, you can do just about anything lol.

Focus on defense in your most southern city and pretty much focus solely on commerce/research elsewhere. You got lots of good land, you just need to start leveraging it. In due time you can then take Pacals capitol and some other juicy cities before sailing over the ocean.

.. i hope :D

I say stick with your strategy to get those tech trades. Maybe for the reverse colonization it may be best to hit a weak isolated opponent to get a foothold. England, Japan, South Africa? Anyway we won't know until we get their. I enjoy a well played loss more than an easy victory so dig in and fight.

... Should I build up for war with Pacal? I mean, at this point, hitting him could hardly be considered a rush, and the conflict would provide much-needed plunder and experience...

Or would that just be a waste of time that would delay getting Caravels in the water?

Why not just get FRIENDLY with Pacal, then you can Leech tech's off of him.

Really with your cities, Col's and courthouses going up, your spy points V's Pacal, should enable MANY stealing opportunities.

Let Pacal do your grunt work research. You can just sit back, accumulate spy points, and STEAL what you want.

So he stole Col's, big deal. That would have exhausted his espionage points on you. Whip Courthouses all over the empire, run espionage against Pacal, *Who else :confused:* and steal you way through.



Oh yes, Mr Mayan, will develop some lovely disease, mosquito, swamp infected, slimly, putrid barbarian infested South America for you. :goodjob:

James Bay, a minor arm of Hudson Bay, was a lawless place. It was the source of constant incursions of armed nomads, and was close enough to the Islander-Hawkeye-Cahokia core that those bands could do real damage before being repulsed by loyal Dog Soldiers. Sitting Bull sent the noble Maple Leaf tribe out to settle the area, bringing its bellicose natives under some semblance of control and harvesting the rich furs to satisfy the needs of the Native American elite:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0010-3.jpg

(Okay, okay- So that's not even really close to where Toronto is in real life. Bear with me here, people- Northern Canada is a pretty sparsely populated place to find analogs for!)

Shortly thereafter, diplomatic tensions with our southern neighbors increased over the star-crossed arranged marriage between a Tenochtitlan subchief and his prospective Maya bride:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0011-3.jpg

This was of no great consequence, though, as Pacal and his people were a backwards folk, limited in their toolmaking and knowledge of the...

Oh.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0012-2.jpg

Pacal gloated in his scientific prowess, riding to Tenochtitlan on a tame alpaca as Archers and Catapults filled the sky with pyrotechnic displays. Sitting Bull grumbled, but took solace in his knowledge that land is power. Sneering, Pacal offered to teach Sitting Bull of Animal Husbandry in exchange for the secrets of Code of Laws. The Native American leader harrumphed in reply and sent the Mayan king back to Mutal.

In 160 A.D., a young student named Tycho Brahe rose to prominence amongst the scholars of the Green Wave library. He had, apparently, cracked the Mayan Mathematical code and offered to spread that knowledge throughout the empire:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0013-3.jpg

Despite the temptation of getting more from the forests that covered North America, Sitting Bull opted instead to have the young scientist found Brahe Academy there in Green Wave, thus ensuring technological progress for centuries to come.

These were dark times, known by the tax collectors for the numerous budget shortfalls and by the people for the harshness of the whip as Granaries, Courthouses, and Libraries popped up across the continent. Even Sitting Bull's attempt at the construction of another great totem ended in failure:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0014-2.jpg

The gold gained by smelting the idol was a small consolation.

In 340 A.D., the mysteries of The Compass were solved. Native American scribes began researching the secrets of Machinery, and Mayan officials were contacted to see what they would offer for these new secrets of magnetism. Sitting Bull's envoys were met with a patronizing sneer:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0015-3.jpg

This insult would not be allowed to stand. Plans for Machinery were scrapped, and all research was instead diverted to Alphabet. If Pacal was willing to sully our good relations with the use of Spies, then so was Sitting Bull. And Machinery, one of the Maya's many valued toys, made a perfect target.

The works of Herodotus soothed the bruised ego of the angry Sitting Bull. The Native Americans' technological backwardness had a more than satisfactory explanation:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0016-3.jpg

His empire was the largest in the world, and the puny Maya did not even qualify for the top 8. It would take time, but the vast tracts of land under Sitting Bull's control would soon bear fruit and turn the tables.

With the Native Americans' writing moving from pictographs to an honest Alphabet, Spies were trained across the empire in Maya letters and customs. The scholars of Green Wave studied the income of the shrine at Tenochtitlan, and trade across the known world. Both could be improved immeasurably with Currency. Meanwhile, at said shrine, an old Priest named Zoroaster rose to power, and asked Sitting Bull what must be done:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0017-3.jpg

"Be still and wait," said the taciturn leader. He would need to consult with his advisors before such a question could be answered.

In 625, Sitting Bull monetized trade with a standardized Currency. In addition, it was time to activate the sleeper agents in the Maya capitol:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0018-2.jpg

Success! The Spy returned to Cahokia with a small spinning-toy snatched from a noble child's playroom. It was a mere bauble, but from its intricate inner workings the scholars of Green Wave were able to extrapolate the secrets of Machinery. With both Compass and Machinery in hand, it was time to revolutionize Native American naval technology with Optics (15 turns).

So there we have it. We're behind, but not as badly as I had thought, and we have the land (and, now, the infrastructure) to catch up. Here's a look at North America:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0019-1.jpg

Islander and Green Wave are both suffering from Whip-angst, which should fade on its own.

Here's a peek at the Tech screen:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0021-1.jpg

And what Pacal is willing to give up for Currency:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0020-1.jpg

I'm tempted to do it, since Pacal having more Trade Routes means that more of my Routes will be allowed to connect to Maya cities. And I can always use Zoroaster for a Golden Age to switch off to Hereditary Rule and Caste System.

Finally, a look at the Domestic Advisor:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0022-1.jpg

So, how do we look? Do you think we'll reach Europe before Europe reaches us? Am I doing anything remarkably stupid? Should I use Zoroaster for a Golden Age, or settle him? What trades should I make with Pacal? I look forward to the discussion.

The save:

The way you're beelining optics (no animal husbandry ;) ) I doubt you'll be found before you can find them.

As for Zoroaster, I don't think a golden age is fitting this early in the game. However, with you're massive land holdings it could be worth it to think otherwise. Regardless, settling will not have quite a massive effect at this point..

imho taking the trade, and swapping to CS (if you think you need it now) plus HR seems worth it.
Optics will probably be researched in the same time your GA ends.

If you are immediately going for optics, I would build a trireme on the East and West Coast of NAm (in Brave and Laker) so you can upgrade them to caravels to start exploring ASAP.

Hopefully you will be able to make some trades with the Eurasian/Africa civs with Optics to catch up.

EDIT: Can you find a good Alaska site that would allow you to get trade routes with Asian civs by bridging the ocean tiles with your cultural boundaries? Then you can get non-symmetrical trade routes with those Asian civs to increase your commerce (and hopefully improve your tech rate too!).

One of the caribbean islands has spices, I think? Maybe worth settling to get intercontinental trade routes and a resource. What's going on in South America?

GA+trade for Monarchy+civics switch makes sense to me. You'll get the basic infrastructure up much quicker in the newer cities and recover your economy rapidly. Plus getting to optics faster means more chance to meet eurasian civs before they've discovered it. Once you get to optics and before you meet other civs, I'd consider switching off research and either banking espionage against pacal, or building up wealth to run deficit research later. No point in putting beakers towards easy trade-bait.

Scout Pacal's lands, he might be an easy target, and there's no point in keeping him around after you meet more people to trade with. A GA seems like a decent plan, it's very probable you can get a GS is it if you run enough scientists in Hawkeye with CS and monarchy. You can use the GA to pump out some Xbows and LBs for the happiness cap and sprint to optics.

Also, it seems you are a bit short on workers.

I would say use the GP for a GA whenever you decide that GA is best. I'd also do the trade (perhaps see if a turn of research into animal husbandry will make Pacal willing to switch out the 45 gold for AH).

Take the trade, I would settle the prophet, save a golden age for later.

Agree, make the trade and settle the prophet...

and learn to do BINARY RESEARCH! :please:

Once you get some of the smaller religious techs, the Prophet will be able to bulb Theology. I realize that Pacal has already discovered it, but perhaps some of Eurasia has not and that could allow for more trade bait.... I like to save my one GP golden ages until later in the game, but with Philo and a decent sized empire for the time period one could hardly fault you for a GA now...

With currency on board, I like the idea of settling one of the islands around for the extra bit of trade - and it'd be nice to beat Pacal to them.

Agree with Kev, once Christianism is gone, the AIs are not going for Theocracy too much, but it has a quite good trade value and is not too dangerous to trade (while trading optics is asking for someone to beat you to Astro).

Depending on your EPs, you could try to steal the smaller religious techs from Pacal (to bulb Theo) while researching Optics

The Spy returned to Cahokia with a small spinning-toy snatched from a noble child's playroom. It was a mere bauble, but from its intricate inner workings the scholars of Green Wave were able to extrapolate the secrets of Machinery.

Priceless. :lol:

Anyways, I think you should take the trade, then use a GA to switch civics as needed. You could definitely use the happiness bonuses. Keep it up, land certainly does mean more power in the long run. Besides, with all that production capability you have, you could easily.. 'borrow' some of Pacal's land. :satan:

I vote for trade + GA. Speed up optics and set sail! Your chances of reverse colonization are really going to hinge on 'first impressions': You can count on being backwards in many respects compared to the old world, so you need to show up with something to trade. You are the king of tech brokering, so I am sure as long as you get a foothold in the trading game, you will get like 6 techs for every one you bring to the table.

Along those lines, have a trireme and scout ready on both coasts before you hit optics. Also, take some cash along. Gifting gold on first meeting will often bump AIs from cautious to friendly and increase your trade opportunities.

Pacal's capital... OMG, an espionage heaven! Close by, same religion, trade routes, that can really change things. Take advantage of that city as much as possible.

With Optics for Habours and Currency for trade routes, it would make sense to scout Pacal's lands though right?

Regarding Maple Leaf, beh. Its not the exact location we're dealing with here, its the regional fan base. Really, many of those cities are a tile or two off their IRL marks.

Its really interesting to see you doing none-too-bad in a veeery isolated situation, as I really, really struggle in those situations. I'm definitely learning things. Keep it going!

EDIT: Also, +1 for taking down Pacal, I'd say even before he gets to meet the overseas civs. It seems inevitable anyways, and you don't need him making friends with everyone else beforehand. That's just going to make your whole game needlessly tougher, IMO.

Do the trade, go into a Golden Age and adept the new civics. While it's tempting to go for max commerce during that time, I'd urge you to focus on courthouse and marketplaces in those places that still lack them!

Anyways, things are looking a bit brighter already.

Actually you got very early CoL, means early courthouses means early mass espionage creation.
Just focus mass espionage on pacal all the game, and you can keep milking him for techs if you focus on it.

Killing Pacal gives you ALOT of land, but might drop your general development in the midgame.

It'd be prudent to beat some techs out of Pacal right now, just take a city, take techs for peace, rinse and repeat after 10 turns. Eventually you can vassalize him and let him colonize the rest of south America for you.

I always wondered what the blue "most cultured civs" boxes do. They show you who is closest to a victory? When do they come up?

Sitting Bull could almost taste it. In a matter of mere decades, Native American ships would be plying the waves, scouting out the rest of the world in the name of future conquests. These ships could not leave their coastal harbors, though, without some way of gaining sight of distant shores. Hence, the scientists of Green Wave and Tenochtitlan began work on the invention of the Telescope.

As the development of Optics continued, envoys approached the Palace at Mutal and informed the Maya that Sitting Bull would, indeed, accept Pacal's offer for Currency:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0000-3.jpg

It was not a great deal, but it was acceptable. And the ability to appoint Royal Guards would certainly keep the populace content. Or at least less willing to express their discontentment.

The two American nations also demonstrated their mastery of Currency with what proved to be a lucrative deal for the vast herds of Deer that spread across the northern half of the supercontinent:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0001-2.jpg

The Native American economy was no longer in any real danger of crashing, but any influx of capital, especially on that scale, would be more than welcome.

With the secrets of Monarchy mastered, Sitting Bull sent word to Zoroaster. Major political changes were needed. These changes, if noticed by the rank and file, would cause widespread Anarchy. No, a major festival was needed. As an added bonus, the lightened mood of a proper revel would increase productivity for a short time, likely leading to a quicker pace toward a breakthrough in Optics. Zoroaster kicked out his heels and got the party started:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0002-3.jpg

Vast quantities of Corn, stored dutifully for years in Granaries, were distilled into potent Moonshine utilizing the brewing techniques that were somehow included in the Mayan Monarchy package. The people, as yet ignorant of Music, merely shouted and clapped arrhythmically.

The cacophany was deafening, and somewhat demeaning, but it meant that Sitting Bull could slip his governmental reforms through unnoticed:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0003-3.jpg

When the Native American people woke up, heads aching from bruising hangovers, they found that Sitting Bull had been anointed their King, and that they had been systematically divided into various Castes. Many loggers were removed from their posts in the forests surrounding Hawkeye and sent to work in the overcrowded Library. Tenochtitlan, meanwhile, had all the infrastructure it was likely to need for many years, and the Native American army was sufficient to meet the people's current requirements. So the workers were removed from the Mines that ringed the city and sent to work as Merchants, utilizing the Market to increase their considerable profits.

With Optics researched, much logging was still being done across the empire. Sitting Bull relented and decided that the long-delayed Mathematics was worth researching:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0004-3.jpg

It was, at this point, a fairly trivial thing to research, and it was key to any number of scientific advancements.

Meanwhile, Triremes that had been constructed in Seahawk and Brave were refitted into Caravels, complete with telescopes, and sent out to spot distant shores. It was time to discover this "Old World" that the spirits had spoken of so many millenia ago.

Pacal came by with a rather paltry offer for Optics:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0005-3.jpg

This suggested to the always-suspicious Sitting Bull that the Maya were working furiously to replicate the Native American breakthrough. He was briefly tempted to give in, wanting to get something, at least, for his efforts. But rationality kept him in check. Native American scientists were ordered to study the secrets of Civil Service. With that, the long-in-the-tooth Dog Soldiers could upgrade to fearless, powerful Macemen.

By 860, Native American Explorers had found Gold in the southern tip of Japan:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0007-2.jpg

And had met most of the Civilizations that made up the Old World. The northern Vikings, the African Ethiopians and Zulu, and the central Asian Turks, Babylonians, and Sumerians all remained unknown, but, by and large, the state of the world as a whole could be at least mostly grasped by this point.

So, with that, I decided that it was time to bring you all back in for discussion. We are now firmly on the world stage, and it's time to figure out out where we stand. Here's a look at our Domestic Advisor:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0008-2.jpg

As you can see, Tenochtitlan is about to spawn a Great Person, likely a Merchant, though a Prophet is also a distinct possibility. I figure a Merchant takes the next boat to Eurasia and earns us some money, whereas a Prophet likely gets settled or saved for a second Golden Age. Hawkeye is right behind, though, with what is almost certainly a Scientist, which I'll probably use for Philosophy. I'm seriously considering sending the people of Mexico City back to the Mines and moving the Palace there. It would, of course, be an amazing Bureaucracy capital. Cahokia is, by now, largely a backwater that has served its purpose.

Here is our first look at the new Diplomacy Web:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0010-4.jpg

As you can see, Pacal is still isolated, which is a good thing. Charlemagne doesn't like me, likely due to his being a fanatic, but he is a thrall of Justinian, so there's not much he can do about it. The Dutch are also a wholly owned subsidiary of the Celts. Basically, the Old World is Buddhist. Boudica and her lackey Willem are Jewish, but they nevertheless have fairly cordial relations with their neighbors, with nobody any worse than Cautious. Suryavarman, though, being the lone Hindu zealot, is another story. He seems to be persona non grata in international circles. Wang Kon, too, isn't well liked, which suggests to me that he founded Hinduism (or at least adopted it early on) and is only a recent convert to the Buddhist bloc. Again, it's tough to say anything for sure with six Civs still missing from the puzzle, but I don't think I'm going too far out there so far.

So what do all these relationships mean in terms of raw trading ability?

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0011-4.jpg

:eek: Actually, it's not too bad. Hannibal and Justinian are clear tech leaders, but I think that by spreading Optics and Compass around to the right people I can be right back in this. And Philosophy seems to be pretty rare, too, so that might be some useful trade bait if I can bulb it.

Oh, one other thing. I can steal something cheap from Pacal if I want to...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0013-4.jpg

I don't think it's worth doing, but I figured I'd throw it out there. So should I focus all Espionage on our Mayan neighbors? Or spread it around, get a feel for the world as a whole? How about trades? I'd really appreciate a couple of experts popping open the save and playing with our potential deals. Should I abandon the Way of the Spirits in the name of better relations with the Old World? Anything else I should be doing? It was kind of a short, weak round, but I'd like to know where to go from here.

The save:

You could always steal Animal Husbandry and the benefit that gives you is that the tech screen looks a bit better, so it may help "psychologically." :lol:

Archery strikes me as a good steal, especially with feudalism right around the corner. I'd probably focus espionage on Pacal until you get to know the overseas folks a bit better. May take some time to get some spies over there, and you get the most "bang-for-your-buck" thanks to your proxy and religion-share with Pacal. He is nearly as well equipped techwise as the Old World right now anyways. Trade away compass/optics for what you can and steal everything else you can't get from them off of Pacal.

I can't believe Boudica owns Willem, personally. Its kinda goofed up over there! Looks like many an interesting time to come though. Keep up the solid work :goodjob:

Stealing cheap techs is a good idea. So you don't waste beakers on them and you don't get unnecessary WFYABTA. But you don't care about WFYABTA, neal, do you ;)

getting AH wont be a bad idea, well, do you even have horses etc on your continent?

Trading optics and compass around certainly aint a bad idea. There is little they can gain from it I wager, then the other way around.
4th on the score list, with even some vassals around is good too.
The game will go just fine, but PLAY MORE!!! ;)

Bureau won't give a bonus on gold, only on commerce, so Tenochtitlan isn't a good capital for that, you'll be better of with a city with a ton of cottageable riverside.

Steal the techs you can, it's cheap, and it will allow you to convert some of your accumulated EP to gold by trading for that in stead of second tier techs.

Steal archery so you can crank out some 3 promotion archers. For now they boost your powerrating, later you can upgrade them to nasty rifles :D

Yeah, with stonehenge+totem poles, it's amazing you haven't felt the need for archery yet. I know dogs are good for D, but especially now in HR, you want other cheap HR garrison options. And hey, as mentioned, if you get Theology/Feudalism, you can go Vassalage/Theocracy for some D4 longbows right out the gate.

As for Eps, don't worry about the old world yet. Keep it focused on Pacal, and keep plotting to steal techs. It'd probably be worth it as well to run a few spies in your cities to load up and basically run an espionage economy to catch up to Pacal.

Moving the Cap to Mexico will cheapen your espionage as well.

If you can steal Polytheism, it would open up a number of other techs for possible trade. I'd steal that and see what you can get after that.

Bureau won't give a bonus on gold, only on commerce, so Tenochtitlan isn't a good capital for that, you'll be better of with a city with a ton of cottageable riverside.

Steal the techs you can, it's cheap, and it will allow you to convert some of your accumulated EP to gold by trading for that in stead of second tier techs.

What is the difference between gold and commerce?

What is the difference between gold and commerce?

You get gold from specialists, like priests and merchants, shrines, and corporations. It's depicted like so http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/gold.gif

Commerce is what traderoutes and tiles provide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/commerce.gif), it will be converted into either gold, culture, research or espionage, depending on the slider.

Its interesting trade screen, Judging by that, I'd say that Surry, only just picked up Feudalism in a trade, as HE can't trade it, but others can.

Stating the Obvious, its a Hindu/Buddhist block war going on.

Trade off Compass/Optics for all you can get, Compass, 1 turn trade, then access optics trades.

Strangely there is no "Unable to trade" tech's apart from Surry and the newly acquired Feudalism.

Teching paper and trading world maps, could prove very Lucrative, as would the tech its self. Most don't have Guilds, apart from the Jewish Cadre.

Tech path, Paper, Education, TECH Astronomy, with Great Scientist, Settle, then tech out rest.

Overseas Trade routes, combined with the Observatory, should power you to a pan Euro/Asian colonization.

Steal Polytheism, then Steal Music and broker that over on Europe.

I stand by teching to Astronomy, for the overseas trade routes...(Mucho commerce) and the observatories.

Then head to Education, Universities, Power away with the teching, and colonize Europe.

YOU DID IT!!! Great Job, Neal! See? You lead the game again! I would suggest you now trade away Optics and whatever with ALL of your new partners (except Pacal!!!) (once it's out, they will trade it with each other anyway, so you might wanna profit from it yourself). Even if they are 8 techs away from you: with 8 trades you are on par with them, you have more and better land and your only neighbor will be so far behind you have nothing to fear. Also are your cities now gaining momentum! If you trade with all of em, you come out Number #1.
So what next? Pacal is completely dispensible. He sits on resources and calendar goods, is weak and techno-wise far behind you after you trade with eurasia. Kill him and consolidate the amaricas for yourself. Forget Japan or Australia (I tried that once, costs much and isn't worth the hassle until later as navy/Airforce base). With you owning the Americas and be technologically on par the game is won.
Don't romaticice Pacal as your new world buddy. He is scum and must be treated as such. Once Pacal is finished, take on europe, starting with Ireland, England or Spain. Why? Because it's so beautifully isolated! You basically fight on great land and only in one direction, can't get surrounded and it keeps your naval supply lines clean. I would start that in the Macemen / Muskets Era (which would be REAL reverse colonization!). In the meantime Pacal will be dead, your armies trained and you can trade with everybody all those goods you will have from two continents. If you like, trade for GPT to boost tech if you get a good offer (more than 7 Gold is usually okay at this time).

Grats!

Can you post demographic/victory screens to see land and pop %?

You get gold from specialists, like priests and merchants, shrines, and corporations. It's depicted like so http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/gold.gif

Commerce is what traderoutes and tiles provide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/commerce.gif), it will be converted into either gold, culture, research or espionage, depending on the slider.

So which is generally better?

By the way, but a bit off-topic: I created a slightly modified earth18 scenario with the other (warlords and bts) civs/leaders. The only vanilla civs are England (in Canada) with Vicky as leader and Rome with Augustus as well as the Mongols with Kublai. Positions are not ultra accurate (but understandable from the historicans point of view) and modified for better playability. (Joao in Brazil, etc.). The Andes and Panama are passable on foot and there is an iron and copper exchanged so that my new civs have a chance to build their UUs. It's for those who have played earth18 so much that they can forecast the PC-Civs movements too much and therefore get bored.
It plays quite differently, because of the different characters. If there is interest - i can post it. Your input is very appreciated :-)

P.S.: Damn, now that I read my post: My english got so bad. I shouldn't post from work. :-)

Alrighty. I'm back in my wheelhouse.

Sitting Bull paced about his modest Cahokia Palace. His eyes had been opened to the grandeur of the world, and what he saw was not altogether beautiful. The Peoples From Across The Sea were more sophisticated than the Native Americans or even the haughty Maya. He would need to summon all of his charisma and cunning in order to be accepted amongst the league of nations as an equal.

The round began with a Spy from Tenochtitlan casually swiping a book on the nature of the Gods from the Library in Mutal:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0000-4.jpg

It was a minor victory, but a victory nevertheless. Polytheism would unlock valuable cultural technologies, in addition to opening the doors to a number of complex religious secrets. Animal Husbandry, meanwhile, would be useless until the Native American empire contained large mammals worth domesticating.

Sitting Bull also hit up Joao II, who was the well-liked if somewhat backwards cousin in the Eurasian community, for the completion of Civil Service:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0001-3.jpg

Four turns of research is four turns of research, after all, and Sitting Bull did not have to deal away the comparatively invaluable Optics.

In 870 A.D., a mister Marco Polo came to prominence in the cutthroat markets of Tenochtitlan:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0002-4.jpg

Sitting Bull was all set to plop his butt on the next Caravel to sail the Pacific, but Marco Polo, whose credentials suggested a great explorer, was apparently terrified of boats. He claimed that he could revolutionize cartography and commerce without ever leaving North America. Intrigued, Sitting Bull let him make his case and eventually relented. Paper, being rare even Across the Sea, would fetch much more than a few paltry thousand gold. And the ability to read the maps of the Eurasians was a priceless bonus.

With both Optics and Paper as bargaining chips, Sitting Bull initiated a massive overseas trading program, bringing him largely to parity with the world and soaring up the Score chart:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0003-4.jpg

Justinian's map, when combined with those of Native American cartographers, proved that the world was round. This information boosted the morale of our sailors, increasing the speed of our Caravels by 33%. Sitting Bull paid dearly for some necessary technologies, but the Eurasians were shrewd negotiators.

Settlers from Cahokia founded the long-delayed city of Hurricane in 890:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0008-3.jpg

Once the Moai Statues were in place, Hurricane would be a valuable addition to the empire. But Sitting Bull was at a loss as to how to complete them in a timely manner. He would just have to wait for a lucky Engineer to show up, or for future technologies to increase the output of the Towns that were to spring up along the Florida peninsula. The Cuban villagers, left alone for millenia, were surprised to find that their island had been annexed a few turns later. They offered 40 gold in tribute, which satisfied Sitting Bull.

Suryavarman II, the dangerous zealot who controlled almost all of southeast Asia and the Pacific rim, came to Sitting Bull and politely requested that the Native American people Organize their worship of the Way of the Spirit:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0009-4.jpg

It seemed to be an innocuous request, but Sitting Bull clearly heard the thinly veiled threat. In addition, he knew only too well the madness lurking behind the Khmer leader's eyes. Telling himself that he wasn't scared, that Organized Religion would benefit his people, the Native American king complied. The Palace courtiers were too expert in their discretion to snigger at their old lord's shaking hands as he made the pronouncement.

In 920 A.D., another religious fanatic, Charlemagne, further codified his faith and declared his intentions to form a worldwide Buddhist government:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0010-5.jpg

A continent away, Sitting Bull was hardly intimidated by this, but it nevertheless merited close monitoring.

As the millenium approached, Islam was founded somewhere in the Old World and a young apprentice Scientist in Hawkeye provided a fairly major breakthrough in the quest for Education:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0012-3.jpg

At this point, with Education in hand, Sitting Bull was ahead in the worldwide race for Liberalism. Any number of kings and petty tyrants offered Philosophy in exchange for Education, but, trusting in the brilliance of his sages and the sheer weight of his innumerable Cottages, he decided instead to research Philosophy on his own. He could only hope that he would get there first.

Back in Mutal, Native American Spies were making mischief in the Library again:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0013-5.jpg

This time, it was a copy of The Count of Maya Cristo, which started a tradition which gave the Liberal Arts majors of Cahokia and Green Wave something to dissect and argue over for centuries to come. Sitting Bull was less than thrilled with this, but it permitted the codification of National and Heroic Epics. So it wasn't all bad.

In Tenochtitlan, meanwhile, the Merchants returned to the Mines, quarrying enough Stone to build a great University where Priests would glean scientific insights from holy scriptures:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0014-3.jpg

With the numerous Temples and Monasteries already dotting the continent, this improved Native American research significantly. As did the Merchants shaking off the dust of the fields and returning to their stalls in the Market.

An updated listing of the World's Most Cultured left Sitting Bull with a sour taste in his mouth:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0015-4.jpg

Fourth? Well, Culture is a fool's game, anyway. Land is power, and songs and paintings can only win you so much of it.

No, most of the world's land is won by Settlement or Conquest:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0016-4.jpg

The arrogant Maya had sullied Central America for long enough. Pacal's Technological advantage had disappeared, and his cities were woefully underdefended. The Maya would learn humility. They were not our equals. They would be our slaves!

Flush with excitement over fighting the first real war in Native American history, the people decided to channel that bloodlust into something that future Corporations could endorse for eons to come:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0018-3.jpg

The Sports League quest is the furthest thing from a priority right now, especially given that the Statue of Zeus is off in the Old World, but it's good to know that it's available. And it's kind of fitting, given our city names. The ragtag band of troops which made up Sitting Bull's offensive force, meanwhile, approached the lightly-garrisoned but heavily-fortified city of Mutal.

A quick sweep eastward across the river, followed by a northward attack as the Spy brought down the City Walls, resulted in an easy victory:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0020-2.jpg

Mutal had finally fallen! The sophisticated urbanites that made up the city's poulation offered little resistance against even the outdated Dog Soldiers that patrolled the streets.

The bulk of Sitting Bull's army, meanwhile, continued eastward to Pacal's Panama, Lakamha:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0022-2.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg

The Maya, mollified by centuries of peace and shared religion, had grown lax along their northern borders and concentrated their forces on pacifying the southern jungles. Now, faced with aggression from Sitting Bull, their cities folded like houses of cards.

Jovial in his defeat, and seeing that his game was lost, anyway, Pacal cheerfully offered to kiss the ring and subject his people as a Vassal State to Sitting Bull:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg

Such submission was shameful, but Sitting Bull accepted Pacal's surrender. Perhaps, upon conquering the Amazon, the Maya would outgrow their servitude and would make a bid for freedom. That suited Sitting Bull just fine. He would simply crush them again, and would take more developed territory along with them.

So, with that, I decided to call the round. Pacal is that precious rarity, a first-turn Friendly Vassal who still has enough land to contribute meaningfully as a sidekick. Needless to say, I stopped dedicating my Espionage Production to him after his Capitulation. I'm nine turns from Liberalism. Assuming I win the race, it's my intention to take Astronomy, to kick my Trade Routes into high gear.

Without further ado, here's a look at the world:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0025.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0026.jpg

Beneath that 1-pop city of Pacal's, it's pretty much all Barbarian darkness, so I zoomed in a little in the Americas. In Eurasia, it would appear that the Ottomans didn't fare so well. And the Khmer and Koreans are real beasts. Maybe, with their paucity of allies, I should go west to Asia instead of East to Europe. Start at the tip of Malaysia and work my way northwards. England is split between the Dutch and the Celts. Babylon, having claimed the traditional lands of Arabia, Persia, and India, will likely be a major late-game threat.

How's the Diplomacy Screen look?

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0027.jpg

We still don't have the Ottomans online, but, again, they're kind of inconsequential on this map. Our trading, along with our refusal to pick sides in Eurasia's brushfire wars, has knocked our sterling reputation down a few pegs, but I think we're still doing all right.

The Tech screen:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0028.jpg

The Byzantines and Babyonians are our major competitors for Liberalism. I'm honestly not counting on winning the race, but Free Speech (and, if I'm willing to jettison the UoS so soon, Free Religion) are worth pursuing, anyway. Other than those two, we're pretty much at a position of parity. Boudica is willing to trade Printing Press, 160 Gold, and Horseback Riding or Drama for the Education/Philosophy package. I'm tempted to take the deal with Horseback Riding. It's not like she can beat everyone to Liberalism at this point, anyway. And Hannibal traded us some Elephants for some Copper. Though the Age of the Jumbo may well have passed...


Finally, a look at Victory Conditions:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/KotW%2012/Civ4ScreenShot0030.jpg

It looks like old Gilgamesh, hemmed in as he is, might be making a push for a Cultural Victory. Of course, that's a ways off, so we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

So, anyway, here we are. I'm starting to build an army in anticipation of some Reverse Colonization, while also pushing for Liberalism. Any advice? Accolades? Boos? The game is finally afoot, so let's hear some ideas.

The save:

You ... traded ... for ... AH :wallbash:

Are you going to pursue your plan of attacking the world world? it is time to think about it. Portugal seems a nice bridgehead for Europe.....

Settling the Buenos Aires spot might be worthwhile as usual btw ;)

Interesting map you have there.

I don't see why you traded for archery, AH and monotheism. YOU CAN STEAL THEM, no problem, and you avoid WFYABTA.

I'm glad you vassalized pacal quickly and didn't go on a big rampage ending with x-times as much land as everyone else...

Nice move bulbing paper and leveraging it for the circumnav bonus! Next step is to sell philo to Wang (and anyone else with cash) so you can crank up to 100% science and improve your chances for winning Lib.

As for invasion, I would start with the Jews in the UK. You will have naval superiority and their reinforcements will be stranded on the wrong side of the channel (or on the bottom of it).

But if you really want to pull a stunt, you can go straight for the Buddist holy city. A real moneymaker. I can't peek at the save, can someone tell me where the AP is?

Booo!!! you Suck Neil...Boooo...STEAL FROM PACAL, don't trade for weak tech's.

Happy now?? ok, nice trading, Merchant for paper..:hmm: not my style, but you got good value for it.

I was thinking of an invasion of the Jewish Cadre. Spam Judaism to Home, assuming the Temple of Davids been built, and use that city as your wall street. From there spam Judaism to Shaka, Ragnar Justinian. Get them to join Judaism with you, and use them as a buffer against Buddhism.

I'd start in Ireland/England, next would be Willhem/Boudica. Then push hard for the Buddhist holy city and the Apostolic palace.

Booo Hiss, Blaaahhhh...No wonder you need help to finish this game.. :lol: ;)

Oh yeah, just to add, Going free Religion, won't take away the +2:science: bonus from religious buildings, and its only for all Confucian buildings

Oh yeah, just to add, Going free Religion, won't take away the +2:science: bonus from religious buildings, and its only for all Confucian buildings

Really? Are you certain about that? ALso is that the case for all the wonder benefits of religious buildings?

If so, I finally got a question answered I was wondering for 3 years now :(

The bonus of the religious wonders SM and USak only apply to the buildings of your state religion. So no, they won't exist if you go to FR.

Some remarks to an essentially good round:

1. IMHO you let Pacal to soon off the hook. You should have taken his two juicy cities on the NE coast of South America. That would have aided your Navy much, plus they will have oil sooner or later (if I remember right). Also, Pacal will never break free from Vassalage himself. There would be a chance if he would colonize Australia (which he did in my games) - but then he would need your naval tech.

2. Yeah, the other posters were right. You should have spent all your accumulated SpyPoints on Pacal and stole AH and Stuff. Trading it was a waste.

3. Where to begin the Invasion: It is tempting to Attack Aachen. HRE has only 3 cities, and juicy ones by the way. Aachen is close to the sea. Aachen has the buddhist shrine. War against HRE could be short, since he ain't big. But you just can't pull that stunt off. Here's why: Even if you *can* conquer Aachen and hold it or even march on to Prague etc. without beeing pushed back by HRE & the merry buddhist block (slim chance): The city will culture-flip like it ain't no thing. Too many other and different and influantial cities push borders against it. It won't work.
What *could* work is Amsterdam. It could be underdefended (maybe away from continental hot-spots), it can be isolated from reinforcements by your landing party, it has a shrine. Only Utrecht really pushes against it with culture and that is irrelevant since it's your enemies city. War can be short with only Utrecht and The Hague to conquer. Your enemy is already divided by water and The Hague could be your base for the Invasion of the British Isles and Ireland.
Divide and Conquer. Chew the jewish block up bite after bite with short, hard wars against the small nations. Use Shrine to let enemies fuel your eco.

So Holland it is I say. Rename city to New Amsterdam :-)

The city will culture-flip like it ain't no thing.

Conquered cities don't flip, although they may revolt and be completely useless.

Conquered cities don't flip, although they may revolt and be completely useless.
Wrong. Conquered cities don't flip ( you have not checked the the box in the options saying otherwise OFC ;) ) to the previous owner .They can, and will, flip to other players if there is enough cultural pressure. And we all know how Europe is in this map in terms of culture :/

My bad.

You have to watch out if you decide to take on Charlie for the Buddhist Holy City. Looks like he's a vassal to Justinian so you'd have to fight with him on the continent as well. He'll surely get Guilds soon and have Cataphracts running around.

Build wealth in enough cities to run at 100% science, then build research in the remaining cities.

Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah :) I'm a little trigger-happy when it comes to tech trades. In my defense, let me just say that on the Earth map, you have so many potential trading partners that one or two of them are bound to be willing to ignore WFYABTA, whether due to Friendliness or simple memory decay. That said, you're right. Kids, don't try this at home. I'm an idiot.

Regarding Pacal, foreign Caravels are starting to do laps in the Caribbean, so Pacal is no longer the delightfully isolated little brother he used to be. And I learned in the Darius game just how much of a mistake going for those last few cities can be. The last thing I needed was for Pacal to vassalize to Hannibal or something like that. So when he was willing to kiss the ring, I let him.

So what should the big picture plan be at this point? I'm thinking we trade for Printing Press from Boudica, then push the economy all-out to grab Liberalism. As the free tech, we take Astronomy, then build Galleons and hit up the Economics line to really kick things into high gear. This naturally leads us to Replacable Parts and Rifling, rather than the Chemistry-Steel line. But that's just as well, as we have a ton and a half of Dog Soldiers and even a few Macemen milling about the empire. We upgrade those to CR Riflemen, load them (along with some Trebuchets) onto our Galleons, and voila! We have a fearsome invasion force ready to put a hurting on... someone. I still haven't figured out who, yet. I'm thinking Joao. We should probably decide that sooner rather than later so that I can focus the Espionage.

So what do you think?

we have a ton and a half of Dog Soldiers and even a few Macemen milling about the empire. We upgrade those to CR Riflemen, load them (along with some Trebuchets) onto our Galleons, and voila!

Ummm... I'd go for a draft army, except for a few CR maces. Dogs > rifles will cost you an arm and a leg. You should be able to trade for nationalism.

We have a fearsome invasion force ready to put a hurting on... someone. I still haven't figured out who, yet. I'm thinking Joao. We should probably decide that sooner rather than later so that I can focus the Espionage.

So what do you think?

Rather than taking on the entire AP Buddhist block which Joao is part of, what about the Jewish Boudica and WvO? You can first invade Ireland and Britain rather than mainland europe. Then do an Overlord invasion to take out the remnants of the Dutch and Celts.

If you want to keep some of those cities, you better research Communism (for the SP civic) ASAP...