On a side, note, I think the search on these forums is not very helpful most of the time.

Anyway, I've been slowly moving up in difficulty in Civ 4, but always seems to struggle at the start no matter the civilization I play. My biggest issue comes from wondering what to build in each city.

When I found my capital, I begin building a warrior first. It essentially goes like this:

Warrior
Worker
Settler
Warrior
Settler

The first settler built, heads out to found a new city with the warrior along for the ride. The first thing I build there is a Worker.

This works for a while, but soon I have buildings that could be built that would be of great help (i.e. granary and library).

So what build orders do you use?

First first build depends on resources, terrain, leader, and starting techs. It is almost always either a worker, workboat, warrior, scout. Note, I play marathon speed so the timing is off a littel from normal.

Workboat: If I start with fishing and have immediate access to seafod, I ALWAYS build this first. I also always work the highest hammer tile, including a forrested plains hill (3 hammers).

Worker: If I start with agriculture, mining, hunting and have an improvable resource. If I have grain or animals I will build a worker if I can research a food tech first.

Warrior/scout: depends if you start with hunting or not. I build this only if I cannot build a workboat or have nothing for a worker to do.

Now regarding the settler, I often wait until my capital grows to the happy cap unless food is poor and it grows very slow. So I generally have 2-6 warriors/scout/archer before I start on a settler.

Almost always worker-worker first growing a bit in between putting hammers in a barracks, seafood is the exception. Depends after.

When I found my capital, I begin building a warrior first. It essentially goes like this:

Warrior
Worker
Settler
Warrior
Settler



I almost always build a Worker first because that's the easiest way to kickstart population growth (if you start with Agriculture), or production (if you start with Mining). If I start with Fishing and have a lot of seafood in my BFC I may do a Workboat either first or second.

Garrisoning your city right away isn't usually necessary. The only real risk that early in the game is that a Warrior will pop a goody hut and get a bunch of hostiles.

I think by building so many Settlers early on you're hurting your early growth. You need population to bring income for research and for producing units/buildings faster. I'd recommend growing your capital at least to pop 3 before cranking out a Settler.

As a rule, I start with a worker. The only exception to this is when I start with Fishing, am coastal and there's a source of seafood.

Starting techs of course factor into this, but your first tech should always be something to improve your capital BFC.

I follow the worker with a warrior or if you built a work boat, with a worker and then a warrior.

Look higher than the "search this thread link".
Look higher than the "search" link.
To the Google search box!

Type in: civ4 build order

It's good to know your orders. I usually don't build a warrior just to garrison the city but to escort my first settler (I don't particularly them being eaten by wandering lions in the frozen tundra!)

What about your second cities? What about there?

I tend to go worker, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior - to happy cap, worker, settler, settler, settler, library + run 2 scientist, worker, worker, worker.

Other cities go warrior, warrior then at 3 population a settler. This gets me 6 cities by 1000 BC at which point I then set up a dedicated unit pump and a dedicated settler/worker pump and a dedicated commerce city. Progression goes alpha, currency, col.

I tend to go worker, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior - to happy cap, worker, settler, settler, settler, library + run 2 scientist, worker, worker, worker.

Other cities go warrior, warrior then at 3 population a settler. This gets me 6 cities by 1000 BC at which point I then set up a dedicated unit pump and a dedicated settler/worker pump and a dedicated commerce city. Progression goes alpha, currency, col.

4 cities and 4 warriors!:eek: Don't barbs give you any trouble?

When I found my capital, I begin building a warrior first. It essentially goes like this:

Warrior
Worker

Most important is to get a worker as quickly as possible, before the warrior, with very few exceptions.
I think the build orders crusher posted are generally optimal. The biggest exception is when you start with mining and a 3 food/1 commerce tile right next to your cap, where it's usually better to grow to size 2 first, and whip the worker. I'd also build 2 workers before the first settler if there's a lot of forest.


On a side, note, I think the search on these forums is not very helpful most of the time.

Yeah, Google could definitely do a better job searching inside forums. I've worked in SEO; the results you get when searching on a site like this are fairly arbitrary and random because their algorithm isn't really designed for it. You'll have to try a lot of different search terms and hope to get lucky.

Almost always worker-worker first growing a bit in between putting hammers in a barracks, seafood is the exception. Depends after.

You regularly build 2 workers before your first settler? I almost never do that, I'll have to try it.

4 cities and 4 warriors!:eek: Don't barbs give you any trouble?

The cities built by the settlers can produce things, too ;).

Also, he doesn't usually play marathon, which changes priorities a bit.

You regularly build 2 workers before your first settler? I almost never do that, I'll have to try it.Yes, imo working unimproved tiles is bad and warriors are fairly useless and take 15 turns to build anyway on that first tiles. So after the first worker i often put on a second. The first worker improves a food resource and goes on to improve a second resource. I synchronize growing to 2 with the finishing of the second resource so i don't work that second tile while it's unimproved. This way i have my second worker some turns faster meaning i can get up the rest of the resources/mines while the city is growing. I then start chopping and probably have my first settler out as least as fast as when i had put it on earlier working some unimproved tiles.

So basically i convert the excess food to hammers for a worker instead of using them to grow to a second (or third,fourth) unimproved tile. As an extension of this principle i put on a settler if i will grow to 4 and not all tiles will be improved when i get there. I take the settler off queue once it's time to grow.

There are of course numerous exceptions, when there is a race for a very good spot i will put on the settler at size 2 if i have 2 good resources, doesn't take that long in that case.

You regularly build 2 workers before your first settler? I almost never do that, I'll have to try it.

Keep in mind this means you will have slower warriors and therefore fogbusting will suffer tremendously. Definitely only situational and leader/trait dependent. I certainly wouldn't suggest it as an "optimum" build of any sort. Growing to happy Cap with 1 worker then adding one at that Cap is usually far better in the long run - emphasis should be on max growth till happy cap - at which point you then emphasize max production, and since you have reached your happy cap as quick as possible you quickly bypass total production that could have been thought to be gained by other builds.

Keep in mind this means you will have slower warriors and therefore fogbusting will suffer tremendously. Definitely only situational and leader/trait dependent. I certainly wouldn't suggest it as an "optimum" build of any sort. Growing to happy Cap with 1 worker then adding one at that Cap is usually far better in the long run - emphasis should be on max growth till happy cap - at which point you then emphasize max production, and since you have reached your happy cap as quick as possible you quickly bypass total production that could have been thought to be gained by other builds.

That's what I usually do after the initial worker, work highest food-yield tiles until cap unless I have enough food to get there before the first warrior is finished in which case I'll add production as needed to not get angry citizens from lack of MP. After that I usually switch to highest production hammer for units food/hammers for settlers/workers. I usually look to expand uickly though so usually that's a settler. Unless I go for an early wonder in which case I build that before expanding.

But since Dirk is a quality player I'll definitely have to try his strategy.

I use that strategy too, depending on the situation, but since Chopping has been nerfed for a very long time I no longer think the "old skool" theory of worker, worker, settler, or any combination of worker, worker is best in most cases. From my extensive testing is slower in the long run - even if you add in the potential gains made from earlier cities started, etc. If the initial happy cap was 7 or 8 then worker, worker would be better =D.

I rarely get more than 6 or 7 cities in the BC's unless i have great land and no trouble with barbs so i want to try out some of these different openings. One question - i hardly ever use the whip in my capital, when would it be useful?? - as in how much surplus food do i need in my best 4 or 5 tiles there to make it worth it? I always figure if i don't have a high food cap, i don't want to whip, but if i do have a high food cap, that extra food helps produce workers/settlers so i don't whip. So basically i don't whip there, should i be? First whip = library, maybe?

The only time I would even consider whipping the Capital is on the coast with poor hammers and lots of food, otherwise, IMO, it is much much much much much much much much much much much much much much MUCH better to avoid the whip like the plague during settler/worker pumping.

Keep in mind this means you will have slower warriors and therefore fogbusting will suffer tremendously. Definitely only situational and leader/trait dependent. I certainly wouldn't suggest it as an "optimum" build of any sort. Growing to happy Cap with 1 worker then adding one at that Cap is usually far better in the long run - emphasis should be on max growth till happy cap - at which point you then emphasize max production, and since you have reached your happy cap as quick as possible you quickly bypass total production that could have been thought to be gained by other builds. Did you ever do a calculation on hammers gained by working unimproved tiles compared to hammers lost because you were slow getting improvements/chopping up? I don't do that always myself anymore. But in the cases i did calculate it over ~30-40 turns the second worker often came out on top, sometimes with quite a significant margin. A city working 1 resource and 2 grass forests is not that much stronger than a city working only the resource. The food from the unimproved tiles just gets eaten and what remains is at best a third food, at worse a coin. This strat is downright superior btw if you're expansive and have a 3H tile to work.

It's a bit situational, if i don't meet no one there's more of a case to have at least some fogbusting going. But you actually need archers or better to really deal with the barb threat in those cases. Also your initial unit can scout enough even if very unlucky (dying on a forest tile) to have the second city site mapped out.

But you actually need archers or better to really deal with the barb threat in those cases

I'm a dedicated TMIT warrior fogbuster now - on Immortal and below as long as you aren't isolated there is no problem.

As far as the other stuff I look at it like this - to max production and max Rexing the goal is to reach the happy cap as quick as possible while working max improvements. In a game with 1 fresh water corn, 1 wheat plains, 2 plain hills, and 1 grass hill if I use my worker, warriors to happy cap i get:

2 pop in 6 turns, 3 pop in 4 more turns, 4 pop in 3 more turns, and 5 pop in 3 more turns for a total of 16 turns. At this point I have 3 improvements with a 4th in the process and 1 worker building which will take 4 turns. When my 2nd worker is finished he goes to the last improvement my 1st worker is on and completes it (2 turns). This gives me a total of around 3 turns of not working 2 improvements and 2 turns of not working 1 improvent for 5 total turns of lost production. Going worker, worker would slow down my growth to size 5 by 8-10 turns in most cases (assuming they are not EXP which changes everything) which is less than ideal.

Now, if someone went worker, worker and didn't grow to happy cap they would be even further behind. Same thing applies with growing to 3 pop then going settler settler. Sure, I do it a lot myself on situation, but it's not the fastest or best way to approach the game in most cases.

Keep in mind this means you will have slower warriors and therefore fogbusting will suffer tremendously. Definitely only situational and leader/trait dependent. I certainly wouldn't suggest it as an "optimum" build of any sort. Growing to happy Cap with 1 worker then adding one at that Cap is usually far better in the long run - emphasis should be on max growth till happy cap - at which point you then emphasize max production, and since you have reached your happy cap as quick as possible you quickly bypass total production that could have been thought to be gained by other builds.

Many of your opinions make me feel strange. Fogbusting with warrior usually does not work in deity. The best defense comes from AIs' wandering archers and this is why in Pangaea map, barb is usually not a problem. Otherwise, even foresthill warrior gets swarmed by barb archers, and barb warrior will go directly to your capital and pillage, don't tell me you dare to attack. Without copper/horse in your capital BFC, archer is a must-go defense. After the 2nd worker, you usually can produce archer at that time.

Two worker opening is often optimal for non-seafood capital, this is especially true when there's worker turn heavy tiles (such as FP tiles) around your capital, and/or you have Wheel early on.


Going worker, worker would slow down my growth to size 5 by 8-10 turns in most cases.


I don't know how did you do the calculation, one irrigated corn + wheat = 11 Food + hammer plus and that's 5~6 turns of finishing the 2nd worker.

Fogbusting with warrior usually does not work in deity

I don't recall any statements supporting that it did and can give you a link to a post I have made in the very recent past disagreeing with using warriors on Deity. How many players play Deity?

hammer plus and that's 5~6 turns of finishing the 2nd worker.

1st worker finishes and moves to the corn and improves it which will take 5 turns - available to work it however, in 4 turns. 15 turns for the 2nd worker - 4 turns = 11 turns to completion. Now take 5-6 turns saved for working the improved tile and you get 11- 5/6 which = 5 or 6 + the 1st 4 normal worker building turns = 9-10. I gave 8 to give the benefit of the doubt.

You are a very accomplished Deity player - I'm surprised you don't grasp the concept.

I don't recall any statements supporting that it did and can give you a link to a post I have made in the very recent past disagreeing with using warriors on Deity. How many players play Deity?



1st worker finishes and moves to the corn and improves it which will take 5 turns - available to work it however, in 4 turns. 15 turns for the 2nd worker - 4 turns = 11 turns to completion. Now take 5-6 turns saved for working the improved tile and you get 11- 5/6 which = 5 or 6 + the 1st 4 normal worker building turns = 9-10. I gave 8 to give the benefit of the doubt.

You are a very accomplished Deity player - I'm surprised you don't grasp the concept.

Grow to size 2 and then 2nd worker, iirc from Dirk's post.

Edit: In Immortal and below, you don't need fogbusting, if you pump settler fast enough, you can hook the copper/horse fast enough for better defense.

Link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=319474&page=2

Edit:

Grow to size 2 and then 2nd worker

That has nothing to do with worker, worker, warrior which is what I have been discussing against as can be found in my previous posts.

Edit:

Edit: In Immortal and below, you don't need fogbusting, if you pump settler fast enough, you can hook the copper/horse fast enough for better defense.

I don't like pumping settlers out before happy cap because it stunts long term expansion. Sure I do it myself depending on circumstances but I would rather be able to wait till the happy cap for better long term results. Not only do you lose production and growth from not being at your happy cap you also need to invest more hammers cost wise for chariots/axes. The longer you can use warriors the more settlers and workers you can produce - even greater compounding the advantages already gained by growing to your happy cap. If the rest of my Civ knowledge equaled my early game expertise I would be the best player in the world :).

Link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=319474&page=2

Edit:



That has nothing to do with worker, worker, warrior which is what I have been discussing against as can be found in my previous posts.

Your comments were based on Dirk's post, Obviously my comments followed are made since I agree on Dirk's statement first. Moreover, you don't finish warrior before your 2nd worker.
Edit: I never directly go for 2nd worker at pop1, I usually go for the 2nd worker after working on all the 5~6 yield tiles and Gold and Gem if there is any. So the discussion is actually about whether go for happy cap 1st and then 2nd worker. For all the reasons Dirk mentioned later and my statement, 2nd worker before happy cap is better under the situation I described.

The JBossch's 1st game is a Pangaea map, as I mentioned, it is the only type of map (Edit: or your neighbors are very close) that you can fogbust with warrior since AI's archers defend for you.

A post I previously made in this thread:

I use that strategy too, depending on the situation, but since Chopping has been nerfed for a very long time I no longer think the "old skool" theory of worker, worker, settler, or any combination of worker, worker is best in most cases

Pretty simple. I didn't read all of Dirks post - I only saw worker, worker, not worker, warrior till 2 pop worker which drastically changes growth and production.

edit:

I usually go for the 2nd worker after working on all the 5~6

me too =).

worker->warrior->settler->(whip overflow to)worker.

If I have seafood and Fishing, Workboat almost always first
Otherwise, Worker first unless I have nothing I can improve.
Otherwise, Warrior/Scout

Once at size 2, a Worker, second Worker or second Workboat as applicable. Get all the specials improved fast. Warriors/Scouts until at size 3 at least. Then Settlers.

You regularly build 2 workers before your first settler? I almost never do that, I'll have to try it.

Worker - worker - settler isn't optimal on marathon, and requires you to be able to chop out a settler quickly enough. The other "hidden" downsides are that you no longer have the forests to chop, and at that point in the game you are more likely to have very high food tiles than very high production tiles. It's still a very viable opening, though, and maybe the optimal build order in most games.

The problem with avoiding building two workers and growing to size five before building a settler is that you won't usually have many good tiles to work. So unless you are playing as Egypt or you are able steal at least one worker to give you food and mines to work, I don't think I would bother with that strategy on epic speed, and probably not on normal either. Faster speeds are different, and this might very well be the dominant strategy in multiplayer for all I know.

I think some people might be confusing the issue a bit here. Dirk is not going worker-worker at size 1.
My main point though was about building a second worker before the first settler. So even at cap I'll usually build a settler first. By the time the settler is completed I usually have enough tiles improved by that single worker in the cap that the worker can move with the settler and start out there asap without leaving unimproved tiles as only option. I'll then usually get a second worker so the cap isn't growing.
If I'm working unimproved tiles I'll just whip them away most of the time.

But of course it depends so much on how close AIs are and so forth. The time I most frequently build a second worker before expanding is when I go for an early wonder like GLH or Pyramids (the latter of which I'm often not sure it's really worth it even with time to expand and stone in bfc).
I can see the point about getting 2nd worker earlier as expansive especially, I'm going to do some experiments.

It really depends indeed. Worker first is regular, good see food sources + early access to fishing, can make WB first.

Sometimes you want to pump out mass settlers after reaching pop3, sometimes you want to have your capital on max pop cap before you start out pumping mass settlers + workers.

On very rare occasions I prioritise stonehenge, or GW, before any settlers. But then I want to have BW and at least 3 workers.

@Gliese, actually i do put on the second worker immediately sometimes. I made an example on both scenarios concluding it's rather close anyway.

A worker = 60 H working an unimproved corn delivers 3F/1H hammers/turn

Example irrigated Corn and for example a gold hill which i obviously must be able to work once it becomes available

-worker, second worker immediately

- 5 turns to get irrigated corn up while building worker = 4 * 5 = 20 H to worker
- 1 turn for first worker to step on the goldhill still building worker = +7 H
- then Grow to 2 in 4 turns timing size 2 with improvement of 2th resource 4 H in barracks

10 turns played:

size 2
27 H to worker
4 H to barracks

grow to size 2, second worker

5 turns on unirrigated corn = 15 F towards size 2
5 H into barracks

Corn up
2 turns ( i believe, if 1 turn this scenario is a bit better) to grow to size 2 another 2H in barracks

3 turns with corn up and for instance working a second grass forest = 8H/turn into worker = 24 H

10 turns played:

size 2
24 H to worker
7 H to barracks

Both scenarios go on to work the mined gold this turn. Extremely close and not really worth MM ing. There are lots of things that can change the equation, if the second resource isn't on a hill for instance you'll have it worked one turn sooner, if there are floodplains it's more lucrative to grow to size 2 earlier for the extra commerceof the second tile. Having made this example now i do think it's often slightly better to grow to 2 first, i underestimated the H regained by using the irricorn for the worker once at size 2.

But if expansive with access to a plain hill or settled on a plain hill the first scenario gains 6 H towards the worker making it rather attractive imo. Also if there's no good second resource it might still be a good idea to just finish the worker since there is no hurry to work a second tile. But this is a new situation/calculation already.

Note that timing is very important, if i keep the worker in Q 1 turn too long in the first scenario i'll miss one turn working the goldmine which is obviously very bad.

Doesn't this entire discussion get thrown out the window if you plan to win by AP Diplomatic Victory? The ultimate goal is to win and these strategies seem geared towards a certain type of victory. For the AP Diplo Win it seems like you're going to want to research beyond Mysticism right from the start - that throws away the whole worker aspect discussed here.

^Even then you need something of an empire i think, i know nothing about AP wins but is it essential to bulb theo so early? Ais often build AP > AD even on deity.

Previous post was about how to build a second worker optimally. Many don't build a worker before having grown to max cap. Indeed it can be overkill and of course i wouldn't build the second worker myself if i can see it won't have anything to do.

But often with 1 worker the city grows faster than you can get mines up and you don't always have slavery to regulate growth, the second worker assures that your growing city will always work improved tiles. If this is not an issue the ability to chop early can be important and roads over crucial tiles so your settlers can get out faster are ok too. Second worker allows me to get a road to the second city often before it is built gaining 2 commerce on traderoutes immed. Barb defense is also easier if you're connected.

From the second scenario i sketched in my previous post it's easy to see how much the second worker delays growth, 8H/turn is put into the worker here so it takes 8 turn to finish it and those turns could have gone to city growth. But this early growth will almost certainly be partly on unimproved tiles .Pros and cons are hard to judge and very map dependent. My general feeling about having the second worker early is that i get my empire going faster.

MadScientist pretty much summed it up in his first post. It all depends on the starting terrain, I'd go with the guidelines he wrote.

Going worker-worker is a bad habit unless you are isolated, imho, as you open yourself up to early AI conquering on higher difficulties.

Although I am curious, usually I'm popping a settler as soon as I have a warrior escort, and a worker built. Is that a mistake?

MadScientist pretty much summed it up in his first post. It all depends on the starting terrain, I'd go with the guidelines he wrote.

Going worker-worker is a bad habit unless you are isolated, imho, as you open yourself up to early AI conquering on higher difficulties.

Although I am curious, usually I'm popping a settler as soon as I have a warrior escort, and a worker built. Is that a mistake?

:confused: Early AI conquering? Do you mean in case strategic resources are delayed? Well if Shaka is already close to sharing an 8-tile border with you then I guess you see your point but I can't imagine it would have a dramatic enough impact otherwise. In fact Dirk clearly states that he's gaining efficiency, not losing it.

About settler and warrior: On deity that would be a very dangerous move on many maps imo you never know how hard you're going to be hit by barbs. Especially if you're not relying on fog/spawnbusting but blindly sending the warrior ahead with settler in tow. It depends though, on a pangaea it's easier to spawnbust

Obviously, from this discussion, the speed of play makes some difference. Many of you are talking about building a farm in 5 turns, which I haven't seen in a LONG time. I prefer to play on Epic speed since Normal seems too quick for my tastes. If playing on Epic, what do you think is the best way then?

Obviously, from this discussion, the speed of play makes some difference. Many of you are talking about building a farm in 5 turns, which I haven't seen in a LONG time. I prefer to play on Epic speed since Normal seems too quick for my tastes. If playing on Epic, what do you think is the best way then?

There's not a big difference, on normal you can plant 2 farms in 10 turns, the equivalent of 15 turns on epic. The epic worker will have done it in 16 turns. Chopping a wood is 5 turns on epic, 3 on normal. So workers are a fact a bit slower on epic speed making a 2nd worker slightly more important overall if you go by time factor alone.

just a thought... considering normal/epic, prince, normal or large map, at least one food resource in the bfc... I've been having a fair bit of success in starting a warrior build, waiting until the pop reaches 2, then switching to worker. Once the worker spawns (quicker than he would in a size 1 city), I usually have BW and whatever other useful worker techs I need, so I'll send him to mine a forest hill nearby (or improve the food resource first if no forest hill available, then start a chop). Finish the first warrior, build a second, then start a settler right around the time the worker is done chopping. Two fast cities usually before the barbs start swarming, and from there on out its cake.

So in no uncertain terms: warrior -> switch to worker when pop=2 -> finish warrior -> warrior -> settler

So in no uncertain terms: warrior -> switch to worker when pop=2 -> finish warrior -> warrior -> settler

Don't like it much. At normal speed, it probably makes more sense to delay the worker a turn by finishing the warrior/scout on turn 9 than it does to wait until the worker is trained. (If you really can wait on the warrior, then maybe the barracks makes more sense?)

If you are going to tech Bronze Working anyway, you also have the option of whipping the worker using the same program.

A pattern like Warrior - Whip Worker - Chop Worker makes a nice accelerant, albeit at the cost of researching BW first.

The timing, of course, changes with game speed.

^if BW is the first tech you research then grow to 2, whip is a nice idea probably gaining compared to other scenarios.Unfortunately BW almost never is the first tech i research, you should have mining AG as starting techs otherwise you miss out on improving the food resource.

@capnvonbaron, the worker indeed spawns quicker in a 2 city then a 1 city, it takes 12 turns to complete now instead of 15. In the meantime you have still delayed your worker significantly so you get the really good stuff up later. I don't know why you chop a forest hill before improving a food resource. It's those 5 and 6 food tiles that really get you going.

@ Wyvernjack, I don't understand the ai conquering argument. I usually play deity so i have reason to be worried about early barbs and early dows. But those turns i delay growing the city by getting the second worker have nothing to do with either of these things since even at the time the barbs come i will have grown to happy cap. I also have 2 workers now instead of 1 and guess what they're doing, chopping archers (which i can build now but couldn't when building the second worker). They also have build roads on precious resources so i can defend there more easily. It would be nice if you supported your opinions a bit.

^if BW is the first tech you research then grow to 2, whip is a nice idea probably gaining compared to other scenarios.Unfortunately BW almost never is the first tech i research, you should have mining AG as starting techs otherwise you miss out on improving the food resource.

=D. The reason why I don't like whipping workers. There's no point in getting it a few turns faster if it still slows down overall growth and loses me more turns in the long run.

I've been using the 2nd worker at 2 pop and I like it a lot - but once again, this method is best by growing to the happy cap or you begin to lose turns.

^The core of our differences seems not to be how to build the second worker but when. This is indeed a matter of opinion/playing style very hard to quantify if the early second worker is worth it. Since i've supported my opinion in the previous posts in some detail i won't go into further detail, we'll just have to agree to disagree. It strikes me btw that you and i don't seem to agree on anything ever :D. Your methods seem to work well for you, Mine work fine for me, just goes to show higher levels are winnable in more than one way.

Noted. I don't claim to be a very learned player quite yet :) I was just going by the reasoning that, since early worker techs sometimes take awhile to research, I sometimes end up with idle workers. I guess it just depends on the terrain start, too. I like to play the starts I get where nearly every tile in the bfc is forest, so sometimes there is no option but to get BW, especially with the civs that start with mining already. And yeah I don't like to whip when the city is that small and that early in the game. Just seems to set the course all wrong :p