this was my probably best rush when it comes to speed and cost effectiveness :D

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Gorbag/?action=view&current=poorfrederick.jpg

poor frederick, gg to him :goodjob:

but seriously, my axe rushes aren't very effective most of the time, or probably not as effective as they could be, I've tried chopping my armies and so on, but most of the time my axerushes bog down to archer defenses. :(

Naturally I could play romans but praets are kind of boring, and youre screwed if you dont get iron. Or even persia, immortals pwn archers and pretty much require bronzeworking and connected bronze to get a counter unit...But I dont like playing as persia, their colours are ugly.

I guess I should focus on maintenance reducing/ economy boosting techs after the rush, since if it works, youre gonna have lots of disconnected cities?

My teching strategies probably suck as well, not strictly related to rushing but still.

Do you build enough axes?

Personally, I seem to have more success warring late with a large stack of axes, than very early with a small one. When you attack with a small number of units you are really at the mercy of the RNG. With a larger number of units it doesn't matter whether the AI has iron/copper/horse connected, when 20+ axes land on their doorstep, it should be lights out if you aren't playing Deity. If you have built more units than you need, you can split them into groups and mop up the remaining cities quicker. The biggest danger is if the AI gets LBs early via a late Oracle-Feudalism slingshot. If LBs enter the picture, you want siege. So there is a fair argument for neglecting an early axe rush in favour of early construction.

Unless you have a neighbour who is very near, and you can't realistically expand peacefully, I think axe rushes are generally dubious at higher levels though.

Try playing as Cyrus. His immortals wtfpwn archers. Immortals are cheaper than axes. Immortals move faster. If you tech HBR without even taking archery build stables and you can have F2 to soften the first archer and C2 to finish the wounded faster.

Understanding my advice is from a Marathon player, but I have gotten this to work on standard speed (I just get bored with the games).

1) Try an agressive leader. That combat I bonus is not trivial to axe rushes. Also the cheap barracks helps.

2) Focus your build int eh capital to a barracks, early defenders, a worker, a settler (to claim the copper), then spam axes. Forget the granery/wall/library until after the rush.

3) Drag a Spear along. Sometimes an archer also to defend the new city.

4) Do not neglect early food. Researching a needed food tech before mining/BW will speed things along faster.

5) Chop/whip you force real fast.

6) I bring about 6-12 units depending on the target, my speed in building the army, distance, culture defense (did the target found a religion or are they creative).

7) I beeline the capitals generally, even if I need to bypass a closer city.

8) Chariots also make great early rushes, espeically if you get horse in the BFC. No need to have a UU type unit like teh Egyptians or Persians.

Also starting techs help, such as mining and the wheel. Also food. Some rgeat early rushers

Both Khans
Stalin
Germany
England
France
Sitting Bull
Shaka

I am sure there are others

I suggest reviewing Sisiutil's Early Rush guide, then asking specific questions about areas that still give you trouble.

Don't forget you can rush with chariots too. They are weaker, but faster.

So, say you have cow in your capital BFC, so you research AH. You see horses, claim with your first settler and spam away.

You can hit the first city on the turn of DoW if you line things up right, or the capital on the second, so there is very little time for your victim to whip up a defence.

Some qualifiers.

1. I do this on monarch, Normal speed, not sure about higher difficulties.
2. I do build barracks in both cities to get experienced chariots.
3. Mansa on a hill sucks :(
4. You don't have to wait until close to happy cap to build your first settler, cos its the only one you will need for a while anyway. You can get it out at pop3, or sooner with imperialist. The grow to happy cap method gives the fastest multiple settler builds, but you're only going to build one - same for workers, most of your workers will be "volunteers" from your victim.
5. Six attackers seems a bit low to me, although I'm sure mad knows his context. I prefer 10-12 attackers, which includes stack protectors if I'm using them.

Don't forget you can rush with chariots too. They are weaker, but faster.

So, say you have cow in your capital BFC, so you research AH. You see horses, claim with your first settler and spam away.

You can hit the first city on the turn of DoW if you line things up right, or the capital on the second, so there is very little time for your victim to whip up a defence.

Some qualifiers.

1. I do this on monarch, Normal speed, not sure about higher difficulties.
2. I do build barracks in both cities to get experienced chariots.
3. Mansa on a hill sucks :(

I'd think anyone on a hill would suck. What promos do you give them? Flanking?

IMHO Chariots are easier to rush with than axes ... i feel axes is being to slow :p

Mansa Musa is potentially one of the fastest axe rushers. He also has a resourceless UU that is semi decent for rushing if you don't have copper.

1) Know when to rush and when not to rush; sometimes it is better to wait til catapults or later
2) Bring enough units to get the job done; protective opponents require more units
3) Don't keep cities that will just be a drain on your post-war economy

IMHO Chariots are easier to rush with than axes ... i feel axes is being to slow

Good advice.

When I know I want to rush, I usually DON'T build a barracks. My rushes, be it axe or chariot, are usually successful so that isn't a problem. But I'm wondering-is it perhaps more optimal to build a barracks? I always feel like more units>promoted units that early in the game, but am I wrong in this assessment?

When I know I want to rush, I usually DON'T build a barracks. My rushes, be it axe or chariot, are usually successful so that isn't a problem. But I'm wondering-is it perhaps more optimal to build a barracks? I always feel like more units>promoted units that early in the game, but am I wrong in this assessment?

AGG leaders certainly make a good case for a barracks, especially for axes!

Try Egypt. Double speed axemen ftw, 1 tech away.

The lone warrior assault is pretty handy if you manage to pull it off early in the game (well, really if you get lucky), but it doesn't work on higher difficulties. I'd say the most effective early rush is with Quechas, as they get decent odds against archers and you can build them from turn 1. The AI starts with bonus units AND Archery on higher difficulties to help prevent rushing players from obtaining two capitals and running away with the game.

Also effective before the age of Axemen are the War Chariot or Immortal rush, provided you have access to horses. Withdraw chance lets you survive failed attacks letting you get more bang for your hammers, sometimes you even get to kill two civs in one rush stage due to higher unit survival rate and more movement speed.

As far as axe rushes go, they were made a lot more difficult in BTS. Personally I wait until swordsmen/catas nowadays unless I have a really easy target scouted out early on. On rax v.s. no rax, I prefer rax as it will only really cost you one unit in the initial rush and gives all of your units a higher chance to survive, which saves you hammers.

Yes, Egypt! If the map falls just right Ramsy has one of the strongest potential openings in the entire game. I call it the sneaky SH -> Oracle -> CoL -> run 4 merchants and bulb MC -> Pyramids -> run a crap load of scientist to get Monarchy - All this is accomplished with 5 cities before 1000 BC and COL, MC, and Monarchy by 850ish BC!

Fun slingshots!

Yes, Egypt! If the map falls just right Ramsy has one of the strongest potential openings in the entire game. I call it the sneaky SH -> Oracle -> CoL -> run 4 merchants and bulb MC -> Pyramids -> run a crap load of scientist to get Monarchy - All this is accomplished with 5 cities before 1000 BC and COL, MC, and Monarchy by 850ish BC!

Fun slingshots!

You'd have to be pretty lucky to pop that Engineer, no? :p

I had among the worst boxed in bad land starts ever on immortal this last game. Since I'm Far too lazy to regenerate and noticed there were lots of trees and a single Ivory resource amidst plains and riverless deserts I knew something was possible. Luckily after I researched BW I noticed that the BFC of my capital was touching the border of the creative capitol and that I lacked any resource useful for making ancient units.
The only salvation came from being Mansa Musa. Sure war chariots and archers fortified on hills with cultural bonuses are stronger, but I made MORE skirmishers than I ever thought possible very quickly through chopping and whipping and scourged the land. 18 skirmishers does the job quite well. Despite a strike at around 1800 BC I have pretty much won the game. Just short of a domination and up by a little land with 7 vassals, and a massive power lead.

I'd think anyone on a hill would suck. What promos do you give them? Flanking?

I promote them in the field as required, if the target is tough I'll put a few on flanking to try and reduce casualties, them maybe go in with Combat 1 with some more. Don't forget to promote a medic chariot or your next attack will be slower than necessary.

IMHO Chariots are easier to rush with than axes ... i feel axes is being to slow

Each rusher has its own strength & weaknesses, my point was you rush with what's available. If you have cow, research AH and find horse, you're good to go with chariot. If you start in forest wonderland and have to research BW to chop out of it, you can spot bronze, grab it and go.

Either way, you have the start on a viable rush (depending on who's nearby and what resources they have).

You play the map, as the big cheeses on the forum would say ....

Also with chariots, it's a lot easier to disconnect their copper if they have it. But that should be done regardless. Above all else, in any successful rush, you need to have good recon and see if they have metal hooked up or about to be hooked up. Even if it means waiting a few turns, the metal needs to be take out. Nothing worse then a freshly whipped spear to ruin your day.

The bad thing about chariots is they die really easily to spears. Axes fair decently against other axes, especially with CR.

I had among the worst boxed in bad land starts ever on immortal this last game. Since I'm Far too lazy to regenerate and noticed there were lots of trees and a single Ivory resource amidst plains and riverless deserts I knew something was possible. Luckily after I researched BW I noticed that the BFC of my capital was touching the border of the creative capitol and that I lacked any resource useful for making ancient units.
The only salvation came from being Mansa Musa. Sure war chariots and archers fortified on hills with cultural bonuses are stronger, but I made MORE skirmishers than I ever thought possible very quickly through chopping and whipping and scourged the land. 18 skirmishers does the job quite well. Despite a strike at around 1800 BC I have pretty much won the game. Just short of a domination and up by a little land with 7 vassals, and a massive power lead.

Skirmishers have just as much of a strength increase (+33%) over their normal unit as praets do but nobody seems to mention that :crazyeye:

man I just finished a great game as persia, it was pangea, noble, epic (or marathon, not sure, everything was very slow, and techs were expensive)

I just chopped a few immortals out and rushed Korea, and Sitting Bull, Korea had one city and Sitting Bull had two, neither had archery however, only warriors defending against the finest fighting force in all Asia, the immortals http://www.super-smileys.com/images/smileys/1068.gif

While my warfare was extremely succesful, I never really fully recovered from it, and my tech rate was kind of crappy. luckily the other A.I. seemed stagnated as well in their research priorities. After rushing Korea and Sitting Bull I figured I should probably at least try to get stonehenge, and I did manage it.

Next one to fall to the immortals was Khmer, which actually had a few spearmen, and I had to withdraw from his capital to raze all his other cities. I also lost a lot of immortals in the final assault on his capital, but I took it nonetheless. I used GG on a previous immortal medic to get him to heal while moving.

I had lots of disconnected cities before getting code of laws and tbh my pop levels were so low that I probably couldnt have whipped any courthouses in any case. :rolleyes: I probably should have razed all Korean and Khmer cities, but I figured that at least the Khmer leader must have some wonders in his capital, I guess not.

Meanwhile, Roosevelt had built at least Pyramids, and was very weak militarily overall speaking, I teched eventually and slowly to guilds and maces, and so I had a counter to spears as well, I also had trebs, and it was roughly the 1300s when I attacked and got rid of Roosevelt. Yea it mustve been marathon speed.

I pretty much owned a huge crescent-shaped half of the pangea continent, with some empty parts still in the west at the equator, where there used to be a few khmer cities,

Korean capital was in the North-West, Roosevelt's was somewhere in the south and Khmer capital was in south west, and Sitting Bull's capital was about 8 squares east from my capital, both being pretty much in the north.

So Isabella was the only nation left standing, and was just about to tech feudalism, which promptly made me declare war pretty much immediately. Her research stagnated and she never got longbows really up in her cities. All the better for my trebs and knights (former elite immortals with LOTS of promotions)

I finished conquest victory around mid 1450s. Roosevelt was vassalized btw, he had 2 cities on a small desert island. I tried insulting and extorting him but he wouldnt break free from the being my vassal, so I remembered that I could edit him from world builder to be and independant state once again, so I proceeded to crush him once and for all.
:D

overall, a very entertaining game which truly showed the effectiveness of the immortals in rushing, and overall in fighting against the numerous axemen that the A.I. tried spamming.

You'd have to be pretty lucky to pop that Engineer, no?

You build everything yourself, no popping, however, you typically need good early commerce via luxuries in order to get the necessary techs, otherwise, the extra 6-8 turns for masonry throws off the timing (stone hooked up of course).

Then all you need is 2 great food cities that immediately run 4 scientist each, 1 great unit pump, 1 great settler pump, and 1 great worker pump. A better way is to actually skip Monarchy and go Asthetics (trade alpha), Literature, Currency(400-500 BC), then turn the slider at zero for a very very very long time while you emphasize max growth/expansion/whip CHs/ then start Vertical. Anyways, if the map is right its pretty strong.

The bad thing about chariots is they die really easily to spears. Axes fair decently against other axes, especially with CR.

Agreed, both axe and chariot rushes can be stopped by the right circumstances (from the AI's point of view), then you are in "partial rush" territory and thats not something I've done well in yet, so can't comment on, except maybe beeline construction and try not to sink your economy because you didn't beeline alphabet....