I am just going to throw this idea out to see if anyone else is interested. What if simply all of the default ethnic art, unique buildings, and unique units were detached from civilizations, and was used as unique advancements. Like a gigantic tech tree. For example samurais being an upgrade for a swordsman. For example an Incan samurai.

Simply everything in game removed from the civs. Hence the name "Uncivilized". The whole point being the civilizations really mean very little compared to other things. City sets used for different situations and etc.

I am thinking an entirely based mod on creating civilizations as you go. Not beginning with them, and everything unique is an advancement from the previous version but may lead to dead end techs in the tree.

For example the advance sword making technique of Japanese meaning very little compared to a modern gun, but still have a little more use at the first beginning use of the gun. And any civilization would of use this advancement to crush it's neighbors if it was known. But it really does not help in learning another tech.

So Civ 4 BTS without the fluff. I hope some people will be interested in the idea.

I think that's a great idea. Traits and UUs and UBs seem to be such useless background. Games are about earning things, not about being given them, about getting experience points not rolling up your character, as it were. But youi're saying even assign Artstyles based on tech choices? Wow. Long ago I did a little mod, don't remember if it was Civ3 or Civ4, where each UU was available to all civs (ie like had its own UnitClass) and you only got the base unit for the base tech but had to research an additional tech to get the UU. So, for example, Ironworking gets you the basic Swordsman, but there are additional techs that require Iron working and cost about half as much to research that don't do anything but authorize additional UUs. You could research Legions or Jaguars or even both and get the UU. You could do the same with UBs. I might do something like that for the future past of my future mod. But you are suggesting so much more.

Another thing that might be cool would be to even have techs that obviate other techs, so that once you go down path A you're committed and you can't go down path B. For example, there are both science and magic tech trees after a common initial era, and any research of science techs has a chance of blocking you from some random tech on the magic tree, while any research of magic techs has a chance of blocking you from some random tech on the science tree. Though that's unrelated to the main thrust of what you are talking about.

Well all of the ideas are good suggestions.

I am trying to keep it simple. I am thinking more eras. So more artstyles because one being different for each era. When I say more eras I mean for example.

When Arabic Caliphate was at its peak there were many new discoveries that are simply not in Civ. The Chinese of course as well. But all of these technologies are pushed into a later era past medieval is how Civ handles it. I want to have the European later changes as their era after what was created from the others.

So maybe there will be pauses where a civ just goes stupid. Like a doomsday clock that kicks in every so often. Where a civ falls into destability. Some effect that will show like the middle ages in Europe or even a possible future fall.

The artstyles I am thinking recycling them into pieces for the eras I mean. So other than that I am not sure. I am just stating I don't care about preserving them at this point. I want to use everything to create your own civ is the idea.

I already began on a tech tree a long time ago but need to revisit it. I took a break from modding and came back. I am now revisiting the idea more or less.

Anyway I hoping to recruit people with similar ideas to build on the tech tree.

Here is the original layout. But I may split the eras into something more artstyle specific so that are used. I just began to think about them. And would be better to have some unique art style for each era, but not laid in stone yet.

Stone Era
Neolithic Revolution 10700 BC
Copper Age 7500 BC
Ancient Era
Bronze Age 4300 BC
Iron Age 2700 BC
Classical Era
Archaic Age 1100 BC
Age of Antiquity 300 BC
Medieval Era
Dark Ages 500 AD
Middle Ages 900 AD
Renaissance Era
Age of Rebirth 1300 AD
Age of Discovery 1500 AD
Industrial Era
Age of Enlightment 1700 AD
Industrial Revolution 1800 AD
Modern Era
Machine Age 1900 AD
Atomic Age 1950 AD
Information Era
Globalization Age 2000 AD
Apocalyptic Age 2025 AD
Genetic Era
Millennial Age 2050 AD???
Space Age 2063 AD???
Future Era

What will be the purpose of this new mod ?

Will Rapture be included in your new mod ?

Will we have a complete mod without building it module by module ?

Because i understand nothing to concept of modules...
It seems very very complex...

I hope this mod will be really new by comparison for previous mod :goodjob:

The purpose of the mod will be more options and more realism as in how history actually progressed. Less stereotypes. Not focused on units as in super combat changes to the SDK . I mean in having the actual technological advancements made outside of Europe. I am looking into a ton of more techs. I have at least 150 or so techs added now in the Rapture SVN.

It is the tech tree I had started in Rapture. I plan to have Rapture working as a module for it.

Modules are not complex. They are actually simple once you get past understanding the initial changes. But it will be simple what is in modules in this mod. This will not have the entire WoC is why.

Techs can me made in the XML folder because the entire tree is being overwritten. Everything that is change in the default game has to be changed in the XML folder.

Stone Era
Neolithic Revolution 10700 BC
Copper Age 7500 BC
Ancient Era
Bronze Age 4300 BC
Iron Age 2700 BC
Classical Era
Archaic Age 1100 BC
Age of Antiquity 300 BC
Medieval Era
Dark Ages 500 AD
Middle Ages 900 AD
Renaissance Era
Age of Rebirth 1300 AD
Age of Discovery 1500 AD
Industrial Era
Age of Enlightment 1700 AD
Industrial Revolution 1800 AD
Modern Era
Machine Age 1900 AD
Atomic Age 1950 AD
Information Era
Globalization Age 2000 AD
Apocalyptic Age 2025 AD
Genetic Era
Millennial Age 2050 AD???
Space Age 2063 AD???
Future Era

How about:
Paleolithic Age ( Old Stone Age ) ( 500.000-10.000 B.C.
Mesolithic Age ( Middle Stone Age ) (11.000 - 9.000 BC )
Neolithic Age ( New Stone Age ) (8.000 - 5.500 BC )
Chalcolithic ( Copper Stone Age ) ( 5.500-3.000 B.C. )
Bronze Age : 1. Early Bronze Age ( 3,000 - 2,500 BC. )
2. Middle Bronze Age ( 2,500 - 2,000 BC. )
3.Late Bronze Age ( 2,000 - 1,200 BC. )
Iron Age: (1200–1000 BC)
Axial Age 800 BC to 200 BC
Classical antiquity etc:

I failed to mention which probably does not mean much I did study archaeology.

The work Lithic means stone more or less.

Paleolithic Age ( Old Stone Age ) ( 500.000-10.000 B.C.
Mesolithic Age ( Middle Stone Age ) (11.000 - 9.000 BC )
Neolithic Age ( New Stone Age ) (8.000 - 5.500 BC )

All of that is the stone age.

Neolithic is when farming begins. There is nothing really to add before that. Not saying it is not possible. Just think there is not much there to use.

Chalcolithic is copper age and not really in the stone age, but I stretched it as well.

The eras I am thinking in a formula if you notice in the list.

10700 - 7500 = 3200
7500 - 4300 = 3200
4300 - 2700 = 1600
2700- 1100 = 1600

Each era is half the size of the next more or less. And I am planning techs for these exact dates. Not just some logically progression of what we think. Each age is 2 X spaces in my tech tree with every space filled vertically on a 19 ygrid. So 18 techs per age.

For example the Great Wall should be built in the correct time on an average game. So that is about 500 BC. Which puts it built in the Dark Ages. I am guessing about an age before for the tech. So the tech somewhere around Archaic Age ending and Age of Antiquity beginning. If that explains more differently of what I am thinking.

Any tech needs to fall in the correct time period. I want to not let it be up for confusion. I want a clear format where to insert what happened. So anything in the tree needs to correspond with the actual time.

Here is some older screenshots to show some of the techs I had did before. I have a lot more now. This is just to get an idea of what I am talking about. Every space is used now. I have the tree filled to about the beginning of the industrial era in default civ now. Again these screenshots are old.

https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocmodules/Workshop/47ReligionsIntegration/techtree1.jpg
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocmodules/Workshop/47ReligionsIntegration/techtree7.jpg
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocmodules/Workshop/47ReligionsIntegration/techtree2.jpg
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocmodules/Workshop/47ReligionsIntegration/techtree3.jpg
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocmodules/Workshop/47ReligionsIntegration/techtree4.jpg
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocmodules/Workshop/47ReligionsIntegration/techtree5.jpg
https://worldofciv.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wocmodules/Workshop/47ReligionsIntegration/techtree6.jpg

This looks like an excellent idea, like how I thought Civ was going to be like before I bought my first civ game, Civ3 - building a civilization over time.

I think you could also implement how geography could play a role in this, too. For example, a civilization starting out in the steppes may be more inclined, or may find it easier to develop stronger, more effective mounted units, or a civilization in the desert will maybe be able to develop the ability to gain more resources (i.e. food, hammers, gold, whatever) from the desert tiles.

Yes it would be a good idea to implement it. I totally agree. I am really wanting to stick to the idea of exact dates versus logical progression that people believe being the main thing. While I know that means a lot of changes and different balancing I think it is needed.

I am thinking that you begin with possibility of 16 tribes with multiple leaders, but I was going to try that after getting a somewhat arranged tech tree. I am wanting to use Revolution in some way to form more civs as you go. For the 16 tribes I am thinking that they would match my family list from Rapture in a way. For example Nordic people can later turn into Germany or Sweden. As for leaderheads it would be a lot of work but I would like them to match accordingly.

I do not want to turn the mod into just leaders so much. I mean they are not bad. But I want the focus on other things first. If I have to reuse a leaderhead for another civ that may be the case to begin with. There has been so many leaderheads made I think I can find something. I would rather have the leaders as modules. And the WoC can load Civ4DiplomacyInfos from modules.

That would be an excellent idea for the techs to be catered to different geography as well perhaps. Maybe I mean as in the tech gives benefits to more regions in detail so that if you have certain techs you are more likely to become a civ according to your technologies. Well just ideas on that for now.

If anyone wants to help let me know. I am looking for some more help perhaps on my tech tree if someone is interested. But I want to keep dates being the most important decider on the tree. After all is finished we can worry more about balancing things. I will put together the changes if there is interest.

I thought I had some more things changed. It has been a while since I made changes.

Anyway if someone wants to look at this. Text is not there still. Need to still split units. Might be of some use to people. Nowhere near finished.

I looked at the Tech Tree looks ok, but some of the tech are, "what the heck is a Prose?" and alot more of these i have never heard of words, wouldnt it be better with "everyday speech writing" or just "speech writing?"
Ideogram?? HUH?? "wayfinding signs." You get my point.
That way some of the people that are not so inclined with the English language like me can understand what the heck they are.

Then past that was something Wheel near 3/4 way thru needs alot more work, see RoM tech tree. I know you said its nowhere finished, it was just a suggestion.

Ideogram

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideogram

This was some of the first steps in a writing system. What can I say. It was important.

The wheel came around 5000BC at the earliest. Again what I can say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel

Prose is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose

It is important for the founding of poetry and sung music.

I am think they all are needed though, but may change them out later when it looks like another would be more important.

Edit: You mean the potter's wheel very important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter%27s_wheel

It made making pottery much easier and lead to the wheel for transporting things.

And the civlopedia is there to explain when it is finished.

This would be a fantastic implementation, albeit very complicated! The whole UU concept always grated on my nerves a little bit, and to see the - somewhat arbitrary - differentiations and bonuses between civilizations removed looks to be a good idea. After all, the fighting style of the Samurai warriors grew out of much older forms of Japanese swordsmanship, and it was really just chance that the same didn't happen elsewhere.

This is a huge project, though! If you need some copy written, give me a buzz. I'd be happy to help with your Civilopedia entries if you need them.

@Serenity42

Good that some people think the same.

Yes I need a ton of help on xml at least. If you want you can change things around as well. Just work on what I sent up and post it again or PM me.

This is meant to be project that many people can agree on. I do not mean to sound as I am the only one with tech ideas. Just I would like it to stick to dates. If you find something better in the time range then good.

I need to note I have some other ideas with bringing in more features like age effects that have an effect on the entire world. So if a tech is just blank and no better tech in its place just leave it their. Their are couple more things as well perhaps that may be added code wise for the techs, but if needs to be changed change it. I can always go back and rearrange slightly as well.

I am open to suggestions on any of it. If people are helping out I am not against changing things if it seems better by most people.

Just do whatever you guys feel makes sense. The text needs work. And I really do not like the translation machines. I was hoping just to stick to English to begin with. I someone is good in another language and wants to translate then good but machine translation is not really good.

Thanks ahead of time if you do.

This looks very interesting, down loading Tech tree now. There were a couple of mods made early on that may prove useful here one (Resource Tech Research Modifier Mod) reduced the time it took to research a tech based on what resources you had access to so bronze working would be much cheaper if you had access to copper. Such a thing may help the AI specialise. Another one is vicinity bonus which is more for building specialisation.

I am open to any ideas. But yes that is another good idea.

I need whatever help I can get on it. Just so many techs to do. I am trying to finish some work on Rapture and was planning to add this tech tree to it after I get Rapture working better. Main reason being I want a longer time period for aka pagan religions. Not them just thrown together at the same time as the default religions.

My idea in this tech tree is the normal default religions do no begin till 1000 BC. So I was hoping from 10700 BC to 1000 BC will be all pagan religions. Then later if you keep a pagan religion as a state religion it will not disappear , but if you convert to another nonpagan religion the pagan stuff will slowly decay away.

Anyway if anyone does anything on this let me know please.

You can't make civ's technological model historical. You choose what technologies you're going to invest in, which just didn't happen until relatively recently. Technologies were the product of circumstance and necessity, not conscious planning.

Take ironworking. In the game, you go for it so you can get better combat units. In reality, ironworking was developed as a cheap alternative to bronze among groups that could not secure access to precious tin to make the alloy. Early iron tools and weapons were inferior to their bronze counterparts, as the techniques were in their infancy. But iron was cheap and readily available, and better than just plain copper.

Same sort of thing with the samurai and Japanese swordmaking. The Japanese developed very advanced techniques of forging and smithing, because they had low-grade iron ores and they could not really produce consistently good steel like groups on the mainland could - their raw material was too hard or too brittle because they didn't have a technique to ensure the proper carbon content in the iron. So, Japanese smiths, working with these inferior materials, developed techniques to overcome the deficiencies in the metal by pattern-welding their blades. Pattern welding interweaved iron of high carbon content (hard, but too brittle) with iron of low carbon content (soft, but flexible) to produce tools and weapons that were comparable (and, after alot of refinement, eventually superior) to ones made with better materials.

The very fact that you choose your technological research and it doesn't depend at all on your situation or conditions makes the whole of civ's technological model completely ahistorical.

The very fact that you choose your technological research and it doesn't depend at all on your situation or conditions makes the whole of civ's technological model completely ahistorical.

But you think that makes this worse then the ahistorical default tech tree? I would rather approximate more techs then say hey it is ahistorical because the right conditions are not met. I mean really the techs now would not have the same scrutiny? How many cases could you apply that to the techs now? I mean what is the difference? I am not going to be exact. I am just trying to make it better so in order to approximate times.


The Japanese developed very advanced techniques of forging and smithing, because they had low-grade iron ores and they could not really produce consistently good steel like groups on the mainland could - their raw material was too hard or too brittle because they didn't have a technique to ensure the proper carbon content in the iron. So, Japanese smiths, working with these inferior materials, developed techniques to overcome the deficiencies in the metal by pattern-welding their blades. Pattern welding interweaved iron of high carbon content (hard, but too brittle) with iron of low carbon content (soft, but flexible) to produce tools and weapons that were comparable (and, after alot of refinement, eventually superior) to ones made with better materials.

Yes like you said they developed another technique. Which I call a technology.

But you think that makes this worse then the ahistorical default tech tree?

No, not worse, not better. I'm just saying that things like the samurai were the product of unique conditions/situations particular to that culture. So the civ model isn't really less historical than this idea, in the sense that some things are particular to some cultures. But neither is really historical because these developments aren't tied to circumstance as they were in the real world. If the Japanese culture had developed in India or somewhere like that, under the same conditions that were present in the history of that continent, they never would have produced the samurai. It was a unique product of a particular situation.

If you wanted to make it more historical, you'd have to work out some way of tying technological development and UUs to circumstances and situations rather than cultures. Events, basically - like if you don't have any tin for a certain number of rounds, you get ironworking, or something like that.

Well like you said exactly not disagreeing at all. Just I am trying to a least get the dates about right for conditions since there is no such modifiers to it.

The default tree to me is really bad because flat out the techs do not make sense in the order even. I mean democracy for example. We are really talking universal suffrage but even universal suffrage did not come around until a later date. The Greek Democracy ideal was when?

My main objective is not to make the most awesome tree and claim historical accuracy. But my goal is to give a broader of view of events that were overlooked. And in order to achieve that I need the context of what is being just tossed into the unique thing.

Civ treats these unique ideas as uh whatever the same thing. It is not the same thing in my view. You can not say Greek Democracy is modern American democracy. Nor can you say that shipbuilding proceeded as such and pretend that the Chinese did not have an effect or other areas of the globe.

The tech tree just leaves out many small steps done outside of Europe that later contributed to Western technology as well. That is the main goal. A bigger tech tree to force the game to have things happen at certain time. No matter even if ahistorical. I just think really can not be worse.

I do agree it is far too Eurocentric and that makes it quite boring. Everything's too linear too. And the linear doesn't even make a whole lot of sense sometimes. Code of Laws - the most obvious thing here is Hammurabi, but Code of Laws wants an alphabet and Hammurabi never had one. And monotheism -> theology - > paper. China is the one that developed paper, and it wasn't monotheistic! Nor did theology have anything to do with China's development of paper.

The first step I am making is working out the tree and getting times like I said before about correct when things would of happened.

Afterwards I would like to add more code changes that would effect the techs. I plan to handle things that just died out as dead ends in the tree. There can various branches of dead ends was my idea. Not everything is useful later, but it can give you an advantage if eras were made so you go actually use it more.

Anyway I will need help probably is why I started this thread, but can try it alone when I get the time. I just wanted it out there to here thoughts and give people a chance to help if they want to.

If you wanted to make it more historical, you'd have to work out some way of tying technological development and UUs to circumstances and situations rather than cultures. Events, basically - like if you don't have any tin for a certain number of rounds, you get iron working, or something like that.

This is exactly what the "Resource Tech Research Modifier Mod" attempts to address, by making techs easier to learn if you have access to resources. For example if you have iron but not copper then iron working would be a cheaper tech than bronze working.

@johnny smith, what help are you after. I am OK with XML and learning Python - up to where I can write the code but can't get it to fire in civ :).

@Dancing Hoskuld

I just want to keep working on tech tree xml and art to begin with. I posted it before in this thread. I just want to have the timeline I had in mind mostly. But whatever you want to do really besides that. If there is something I would rather have I can always mess with it again as well. I am just heavily working on Rapture at the moment. If you got any questions along the way just ask.