A message from the Senate

As anyone reading the judiciary thread is now PAINFULLY aware, the Code of Laws prohibits the Governor from having a depudy. If I may say, before entering into reasoned debate, that this is a downright stupid law.

We have seen through history that Governors are just as likely to go AWOL as any other official, in fact often more so. The fact that there is no ready backup to assume command has meant that build queues have often gone untended for long periods of time. This is both unacceptable and unnessisary. There is no need to continue the distinction between department leaders and governors on this issue.

In addition to the obvious benefits, there are a number of other positives. First, it would get more people involved in government. It would also mean that running for governor was not an all or nothing affair. The Province would also have a chat rep on hand.

As you may know, I am currently attempting to appoint an Acting Governor in Waiting that can be redily appointed by myself to replace me if I take a notified absence. For some reason this is coming under attack, though I am not sure how I am supposed to appoint an acting governor (waiting) exept when I am still here.

It is clear that we need a change of law. As I was not present when the original law was passed, I have no conception of why this is even in our law. However, regardless of what misguided resoning lay behind it, there is no reason to continue this 'tradition'.

As the Governor of Bohemia, and a gov of some experience, I would call upon all Fanatikans to speak on this pressing issue.

Hear, hear! Give governors some real backup!

I am 100% behind a deputy governor position (and have been for quite a long time).

Just to preadress the most common naysayers' arguments:

There aren't enough people for all of the positions. If we make another government position our talent pool will be even further diluted.
Hogwash. If there aren't enough people for the positions the deputy positions are going to be the ones to go unfilled. Allowing deputy governors will not dilute the talent pool one iota.

Deputy governors aren't really needed. The Domestic Leader can take over governor duties if the governor disappears. As we saw over and over again in the first game and in the beginning of this one, this is not an ideal situation and does not work at all well. What WILL work is a deputy governor position.

I voice my support too! :D Redoing build queues for 30+ cities isn't exactly the most fun thing in the world. ;)

I give my unqualified support to the introduction of Deputy Governors. :)

I'd like to see this happen as well.

Clearly there is a need, and the precedent is already set in the other leadership departments. Let's bring in Deputy Governors!

(although, I would prefer to avoid "depudy" governors myself. ;-)

As I have stated before in other posts, I too support this measure. Although I would prefer that the "deputy" positions were appointed by the Governors soon after the election, not given to the second place candidate.

I support the idea of a Deputy Govenor.

orriginaly posted by Stuck_as_a_mac
(although, I would prefer to avoid "depudy" governors myself. ;-)

We can call them Lt. Govenors insted ;).

I shall follow suite, and support deputy governors. We had a lot of trouble with absent governors last game.

Give me some time, and I'll draft an offical proposal to amend the CoL.

The only problem we will have: if all provinces have a deputy, we will soon run out of governors and deputies.

My proposal:
A pool of deputies under the reign of the domestic department. They could help out with other work in more than one province, but are on "standby" if a governor is absent.
The number could be defined by the number of provinces, for example #provinces/3, so for every 3 provinces we get an additional deputy. with 5 provinces we would have 2.

(in the original sense, with 5 provinces we would have 5 deputies, together with 5 governors, 6 executives, 3 judges and 2 main leaders we would need 21 officials. not counted all those chat representatives. given that the officials can only run for 1 position in the elections, it would propably get hard to fill all those).

I think it would work better if each gov had a deputy.

This is what the law against deputy governors says.
Section D.1.B of the CoL
Governors do not have Deputies but may appoint an Acting Governor when unable to fulfil their duties. The Acting Governor has all powers and responsibilities of the Governor but is a temporary position and must surrender their acting status upon the request of the governor.

I propose:
Section D.1.B
Deputy Governors

1. Each governor will have a deputy. The deputy governor assumes all powers and responsibilities of the province during the absence of the governor.

There are a few more things we'ed need to change to allow the governor to appoint a deputy.

Section H.4 currently tells how an acting gov may be appointed. We need to change it to:

4. Deputy Governor
a. Appointed by Provincial Governor if there isn't one already.
b. Confirmed by a poll of the citizenry. Simple majority required.

One last change is necesary to the CoS.

Section G.9.A.1, dealing with elections
current:
9. Election polls
A. The candidate with the highest votes wins the elected position.
1. For departments and the Presidency, the candidate with the second highest votes wins the Deputy position.

Sub-Item one would need to be changed to:
1. For provinces, departments and the Presidency, the candidate with the second highest votes wins the Deputy position.



That's a mouthful...

Originally posted by disorganizer
The only problem we will have: if all provinces have a deputy, we will soon run out of governors and deputies...

(in the original sense, with 5 provinces we would have 5 deputies, together with 5 governors, 6 executives, 3 judges and 2 main leaders we would need 21 officials. not counted all those chat representatives. given that the officials can only run for 1 position in the elections, it would propably get hard to fill all those).

Not really dis since leaders can also be deputies.

I support this idea. I also support the idea that the deputy or lt. gov (or whatever) be appointed by the governor. This will help alleviate the problems dis pointed out about running in only one election.

I am willing to foot the bill for legal fees ti have AP&N write up the proposal (since Shaitan has offered me a discount). :)

i am fully behind this proposal. It makes no sense to put the weight of an entire city on one man. My only request is that they are appropiatly called depudy, not deputy.

The Great Iguanaman

@donsig - AP&N accepts. I'll have a proposal in detail tomorrow.

Does anyone not notice my fully detailed proposal above? Sheesh... Sometimes I think this RPG think strecthes too far. I did that for free, before we go throwing out our money, let's look at what's already on the table.

I noticed it, Octavian. I'm planing on plagarizing it. ;)

What donsig is paying for is shepherding. It's active direction of the entire process through the final acceptance of the changes. It's much more than just the proposal.

So, are we going with deputies that are runners up in the election or appointed by the governor?

as the person at the epicenter of this controversy so to speak, i would like to add my support for this idea. in the event of a governor going awol the people need an able champion, whose occupation of the subsidiary position has given them credible experience, who is able to step in immediately. i wholeheartedly support octavian xs proposal, but humbly request that the term deputy governor be changed to lt. governor, in accordance with civgenerals inspired suggestion. thank you

Deputies would work well as the second place position, since that's how all of our deputies work, including the Vice Presidentship.

@Shaitan: I expect a small fee:D j/k

The deputy governor should be the runer-up of the election, just like the Executive branch deputies. In the event of an uncontested election the gov will be able to appoint a deputy, same as the exec leaders.

Sounds like a good plan Shaitan. If there are two canidate govenors for a provance, one of them becomes a deputy govenor. If there is only one govenor canidate for a provance then he/she can have an option of appointing one.

I prefer the idea of Dep. Govs being appointed by the Governor rather than being the runner up in the election. Unlike the executive branch deputies, a Dep. Gov would have the power to effect radical deviations from the policies of the Governor, so it makes more sense for the Gov to be able to choose a deputy whose inclinations match their own.

To give an example: In a governorship election, Neutral Leader gets the job and I wind up as his deputy. NL sets build queues brimming with cultural, scientific and economic city improvements and then goes AWOL for a few days. In NL's absence I assume control of the province, and change all his peacenik queues into stacks-of-doom in waiting. A turn-chat passes and then NL returns. NL sees what has happened while he was away and goes ballistic.

If the deputy position is given to a 2nd place candidate whose playing style is in opposition to the governor, this situation will always be a distinct possibility.

Eklektikos, that's the situation for all leaders. The deputy is expected to follow the organized plans of their Leader. There's no difference here between a governor or an executive leader.

And they're both supposed to adhere to the will of the people!

Would it delay things too much to poll on the question of appointment versus runner-up? I'm thinking we want this change made in time for the term two elections.

Proposed Poll

Question/Options
Assuming Governors will be given Deputies, should the deputies be elected or appointed?
Elected - second place finish in gubernatorial elections.
Appointed by governor
Abstain
First Post
This issue of deputies for governors is currently being discussed in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32131). One point that needs resolution is whether deputy governors should be appointed by the winning governor or if the second place finisher in the governor elections should automatically become deputy governor.

This poll will remain open for 48 hours.

So we are actually not sure if deputy governors should be elected? Seems like a no-brainer to me. If they function in the same way as other deputies, they should be chosen in the same way.

I'm with Eyrie on this, I think we need to have consistency in the government on the selection process for deputies. If we're going to the trouble of creating a new official position, let's at least do it in way to minimize confusion.

I don't see why we have to take such a good idea as an appointed LT. Governor, and try and bend it into conforming with the standard approach for a position that deals with something totally different. Appointment is appropriate, not having to be saddled with someone you don't want. Had this situation been active when I was Governor of Kashmir, and I had been forced to accept Civanator as my Lt. Governor, I would have been very unhappy, as he would have never been there except to hold the title, so Dis could pay him the money. If only one qualified candidate runs for a Governor slot in an election, you can bet I'll put my name in the running so I can collect the extra dough. You may not see any work produced by me, but I'll sure have my hand out come payday.

Now if it were an appointed position, the Governor would have to take care in their selection, and chose someone who they thought would be best for THEIR Province. Someone they thought they could count on. They may chose the runner-up of the election, who knows - but why saddle them with something they may not be able to appreciate?

You are just going to shoot yourself in the foot again.

So, let's go with the poll then to determine appointed or elected. There are strong feelings both ways. Let a vote decide which system we use.

We'll need to determine this before analyzing the rules for changes or essentially using Octavian's set.

Originally posted by Cyc
I don't see why we have to take such a good idea as an appointed LT. Governor, and try and bend it into conforming with the standard approach for a position that deals with something totally different. Appointment is appropriate, not having to be saddled with someone you don't want. Had this situation been active when I was Governor of Kashmir, and I had been forced to accept Civanator as my Lt. Governor, I would have been very unhappy, as he would have never been there except to hold the title, so Dis could pay him the money. If only one qualified candidate runs for a Governor slot in an election, you can bet I'll put my name in the running so I can collect the extra dough. You may not see any work produced by me, but I'll sure have my hand out come payday.

Now if it were an appointed position, the Governor would have to take care in their selection, and chose someone who they thought would be best for THEIR Province. Someone they thought they could count on. They may chose the runner-up of the election, who knows - but why saddle them with something they may not be able to appreciate?

You are just going to shoot yourself in the foot again.

Well, I got stuck with donsig as my deputy! :lol: And before that, marshalljames (who existed only to troll my ideas). Everyone else should have to deal with deputies who don't agree with them as well.

I agree that runners-up should be deputies. Why do we make exceptions for the same basic office?

The deputy wouldn't exactly obligated by law to follow the governor's policy. There isn't anything that says governors set provincial policy. If we wanted to make sure deputies followed those policies, even more things would need to be added to CoL. Either way, the deputy's instructions may be overridden by the council in favor of the governor's instructions.

Actually, I like to have consistency but I would make all deputies appointed by the respective leader. I've felt that way since term two of game one. ;)
I think the proposed poll is good. Let'd vote on it and go to the next step. I will support the idea of deputy/lt. govs whether they are elected or appointed.
Now that I think of it, why don't we combine the ideas. Let gubernatorial candidates pick their lt. gov. before the election and then we vote for the pair. Maybe this option should be discussed before the poll. (Hope the poll isn't up yet!)

I don't like that options, donsig, as it forces a governor to find a running mate before the elections. It's not required of any other position.

I would have to agree that finding a running mate before the elections would be tedious. Better to select from the list of citizens that did not win an election and have more time to spend on the Province.

And I don't think the poll can be put up for another 4.5 hours from now.

[roleplay arrogance] well, it doesn't matter to me whether it's appointed or elected, no-one would DARE run against ME! *waves club in the air* [/roleplay arrogance]

Actually, I think both camps have valid arguments. However, I do not see the implementation of Depudies as so problematic that we must stick to an established pattern.

I think that the position should be appointed, but for a very different reason to any yet proposed. I think that a Depudy Governor (sticking to my guns on the name) should be a new player, but one who shows potential. It is POINTLESS to have a department leader as a Depudy Gov, as in the case of a governor resigning, taking leave or going AWOL, no department leader would resign to take on a Governorship. This is essentially why Depudy Governors must be appointed, I will explain this better now:

A person may hold a 'leader' position and many depudy positions.
Departmental leader positions (ministers) are mostly considered 'better' positions than a Governorship (obviously not my opinion, I love to Gov)

If: A person holds a ministerial position and a depudy gov position
Then: They are unlikely to give up the ministirial position to become governor.

If: A person holds a Governor position and a dupudy minister position
Then: They are likely to give up the governorship to become a minister

Thus the situation of a depudy minister and a depudy governor are different. This is why a dep. Gov MUST be appointed, to ensure it is someone who will actually take over if needs be. Additionally as the actions of Governors are often under less scrutiny, it is important to get a competent, well meaning depudy that can be properly tutored by the Governor in provincial affairs.

If we make Depudy Gov positions runner up style they will become nothing more then an easy way to boost RPG salary. If we make them appointed, they can become central in the induction of new players into the game and the effective functioning of government.

Thankyou and Goodnight.

i agree with aj (obviously). as a relatively new player myself, i think that its important for persons in my position to have an oppurtunity to both learn from the best (read: almightyjosh), and to prove themselves. but i do think the appointment should be ratified by a popular vote.

Either way, I believe it best to go with a runner up as deputy, first to keep the 'consulation' prize.

Second, I don't like the idea of a double standard. The executive branch and Senate should have the same deputy system.

Third, it may be difficult to get the required quroum for an approval poll, thus making the 'deputy-less' period longer.

tell me about not being able to reach quroum!

Poll posted (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32428) for elected vs. appointed.

Discussion seems to have stalled. The general concensus is that deputy governors should be elected as the runner ups in elections. Where do we go from here?

I think we should make the runner-up in the poll the option the choose. :)

I think we're ready to go. Is there anything else to discuss? I will put up a poll proposal later this morning.

i like the ide

Thread title
Change of Code of Laws to allow Deputy Governors

Poll Question and Options
Do you support the change in the Code of Laws noted below?
Yes
No
Abstain

First Post
The changes detailed here will create the position of Deputy Governor for each province.

Proposed COL Sections:
D. The Legislative Branch
1. The Senate (Governors)
b. Each province will have a deputy.
The Deputy Governor assumes all
powers and responsibilities of the
provincial office during the absence
of the governor.

H. Appointed Positions
4. Deputy Governor

Original COL Sections:
D. The Legislative Branch
1. The Senate (Governors)
b. Governors do not have Deputies but
may appoint an Acting Governor when
unable to fulfil their duties. The
Acting Governor has all powers and
responsibilities of the Governor but
is a temporary position and must
surrender their acting status upon
the request of the governor.
H. Appointed Positions
4. Acting Governor

Poll particulars:
This topic was discussed in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32131).

This poll will remain open for a minimum of 48 hours. After 48 hours the poll will close once a quorum has been met.

Aren't the deputies still gonna be elected? If so, a change is needed in the CoS Section G.

COS has to be done by the Council.

Then, could you contact some of the council members to see it one of them can sponser this chage?

BTW: I knew that....

Already in the works, Octavian. ;)

Judge Advocate Opinion
Code of Laws - Section D, Point 1
Code of Laws - Section H, Point 4

Deputy Governors

In accordance with CoL, Section E, Point 2, multiple subsections, this Judge Advocate review of a proposed change to the Code of Laws is submitted.

Finding: This change to the Code of Laws does not conflict the with the Consitution of Fanatika, nor any other law currently in existance. Therefore I cast my vote with allowing the poll to go forward for passage.

Discussion: This office strongly recommends the passage of these changes to the law. Delays in build queues due to absentee Governors can be crippling to our economy and war efforts.

Bill
Judge Advocate

Chief Justice's Review
Deputy Governors

I find that this proposed law does not conflict with any Article, Law, or Standard we have. I vote in favor of this change.

I agree with the Judge Advocate in that this law should be passed as soon as possible.

We need only our Public Defender then...

i would lend my support to this if the document is changed to reflect election of the lt. governors.

That change will be made, neutral leader. It just has to be done by the Council, we can't change it through polling. The Council can't change that until the big laws are changed by this proposal.

Public Defender Position

I concur with the other members of the Judiciary and see no problems with this poll.

Poll Posted (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32954)