View Full Version : New Civ Concept


Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 05:36 PM
Now the Luchiurp+ project, looking for help. Design objectives (updated as new ideas come to me/are discussed in the thread):

Putting the focus on the golems. Even though it mostly already is, they should be able to outstrip the dwarven units.

Finding some way to add promotions to Golems since they don't gain XP, through use of their Hero (who already Empowers them) and possibly by either buildings or some way of buying promotions for your Golems with gold. (possibly both - build the building and then pay for the upgrade, Master Smith style, in which case the upgrade would be cheaper than if you can just buy upgrades without buildings)

Creating more arcane synergy with the Golems - Repair is a nice start, but mages at the back of the Golems should represent a serious threat.

A general focus on frontlining Golems and a gradual expanse of Golems as a main force - Where other forces might constantly tech up into new units, I'd like this civ to have fewer, but more customizable units - where others would get completely new units, they'd get bigger and nastier promotions and more ways to turn the units they do have into powerhouses.

Slower advancement through the tiers, but more powerful units - Thanks to promotions being buyable/acquired from buildings, their T1 will be more formidable than other T1s, and likewise for T2 and T3 - so their actual moving up the tiers will be slightly slower, but balanced by the fact that in the meantime, they're acquiring upgrades for their current units that even the odds.

De-emphasizing growth and making them a big hammer/gold rush civ - Hammers for high production (Perhaps even slightly more effective mines with one extra hammer to represent tireless golem workers) and gold to be used to tech up and buy upgrades.

(Possibly) Allow low-level Golems to be summoned onto the field by Adepts for a gold cost, with the type of Golem dependent on the square the Adept is standing on - Wood Golems in forests, Rock Golems on hills, Mud Golems on plains, etc. Even more theoretically, a "Golem Workshop" improvement that constructs a Golem every so often, again dependent on the tile it's built on.

WarKirby
May 20, 2009, 05:46 PM
Personally, I'd advise overhauling luchuirp a bit, instead of making a whole new civ. They're already quite similar to how you describe, but the upgrade mechanic is a barely explored concept as they are now.

Always better to improve an existing race, than add another, I'd say. But it's up to you.

civ_king
May 20, 2009, 05:52 PM
Essentially I'm designing a civ at least concept-wise (and later fancy-XML-and-python-wise). The core concept is something close to the group that focuses on Golems, but with a generally more magical feel and an emphasis on artificially created units: Homunculi, golems, and robots of all kinds. Since many of their units are artificial, I'm thinking UBs would focus on increasing production and providing free promotions (representing "upgrades" to the process or the unit itself). Highly customizable armies (considering allowing them to somehow reset promotions, if there's a way to do so, or just buy promotions with enough gold), an arcane/steampunk flavor, possibly Fallow given they're running mostly mechanical units. If possible, I might even tie population into hammers somehow. (one concept I had was a building that would increase city growth if you had the proper resources - namely various metals, stone, and such). Any ideas/willing helpers/further questions?

growth, take the build wealth, duplicate it and then tweak it to be growth instead,
eliminate unhappy/unhealthy
have animals give extra production (bones/ligaments/)
mega boost mines (because the workers never tire)
have a very basic unit, (a frame) with 1 strength, but you can make pieces like a head, arms, legs, weapons,

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 06:01 PM
I've been considering that too. A sort of Luchuirp+ to go alongside the two previous upgraded civs. It certainly would be easier and probably more effective overall. So, first things first, I suppose the primary things would be:

Putting the focus on the golems. Even though it mostly already is, they should be able to outstrip the dwarven units.

Finding some way to add promotions to Golems since they don't gain XP, through use of their Hero (who already Empowers them) and possibly by either buildings or some way of buying promotions for your Golems with gold. (possibly both - build the building and then pay for the upgrade, Master Smith style, in which case the upgrade would be cheaper than if you can just buy upgrades without buildings)

Creating more arcane synergy with the Golems - Repair is a nice start, but mages at the back of the Golems should represent a serious threat.

A general focus on frontlining Golems and a gradual expanse of Golems as a main force - Where other forces might constantly tech up into new units, I'd like this civ to have fewer, but more customizable units - where others would get completely new units, they'd get bigger and nastier promotions and more ways to turn the units they do have into powerhouses.

Slower advancement through the tiers, but more powerful units - Thanks to promotions being buyable/acquired from buildings, their T1 will be more formidable than other T1s, and likewise for T2 and T3 - so their actual moving up the tiers will be slightly slower, but balanced by the fact that in the meantime, they're acquiring upgrades for their current units that even the odds.

De-emphasizing growth and making them a big hammer/gold rush civ - Hammers for high production (Perhaps even slightly more effective mines with one extra hammer to represent tireless golem workers) and gold to be used to tech up and buy upgrades.

WarKirby
May 20, 2009, 06:07 PM
Finding some way to add promotions to Golems since they don't gain XP, through use of their Hero (who already Empowers them) and possibly by either buildings or some way of buying promotions for your Golems with gold. (possibly both - build the building and then pay for the upgrade, Master Smith style, in which case the upgrade would be cheaper than if you can just buy upgrades without buildings)


For this, autoaqquire promotions would be good. prereqbuildingincity, I think. Would give a golem an automatic upgrade when it enters a city with the right building. Or you could require a gold cost to be paid for each upgrade, similar to master equipment.

Personally, rather than an "Iron Golem", I'd rather see a "Metal Golem", with either "Bronze Body" "Iron Body" or "Mythril Body" appropriately, depending on what you have access to. just a random thought.

deadliver
May 20, 2009, 06:09 PM
Personally, I'd advise overhauling luchuirp a bit...

Heh heh I was going to say the same thing when I first saw this thread!

The Luchuirp heavily rely on golems etc already, there is also a thread in the main forum regarding what ideas could be used to upgrade the various golems. But as was mentioned before, this your baby yo. It may be easier for you to make a second civ using the Luchuirp as a template (units for example).

Are there any living units in the civ?

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 06:11 PM
I'm thinking I'll probably make this a Luchuirp+ sort of thing, in which case I would like some help in general because I'm not always clear on how exactly certain things work (my modding previous to this has mostly been XML tweaks). Also, I like the idea of Metal Golems that get upgrades for Bronze/Iron/Mythril the way other units can use weapons of each type.

WarKirby
May 20, 2009, 06:20 PM
There's an XML tag which allows the unit's artdefine to be changed with a promotion. Ghostwalkers use it.

It could be applied to golems, so that they visibly change when their base metal is changed. There's already an iron golem, and I could do retextures for bronze and mythril, I reckon. wouldn't be hard

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 06:22 PM
That'd be fairly awesome. I think it would add a lot to the flavor of the units if they visually change over promotions, especially given that the primary military trick of the Luchiurp is going to be turning Golems into super-promoted madness.

Also, we should have some unique promotions for the Golems, since it's their primary military focus. Any ideas for promotions that work especially well for golems (stuff that makes sense for artificial units especially). Personally I think one possibility would be adding a Cargo Space promotion - nothing quite like a Mythril Golem suddenly dropping a Repair Adept behind him and then picking him back up when Assassins show up.

WarKirby
May 20, 2009, 06:31 PM
That'd be fairly awesome. I think it would add a lot to the flavor of the units if they visually change over promotions, especially given that the primary military trick of the Luchiurp is going to be turning Golems into super-promoted madness.

A word of caution, there is a limit to the system there.

A unit's art can only be changed entirely. So either most promotions would have to be non visual, or it would take a LOT of work. Basically, a unique model for every possible combination of visible promotions. If it's limited to only the metal bodies, that number is 3. Quite easy. But if you add extra arms, armour plating, or other visible things, the quantity of work grows exponentially.

Sadly, I don't think Civ IV has any kind of support for systematically changing only parts of a model

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 06:35 PM
Yeah, I suspected as much. I think maybe only one or two visual upgrades for each variety - the Metal Golems, as the mainstay force, would have the three bodies. Then there might be one big, noticeable, visual promotion for Nullstone, Clockwork, etc. Wood Golems probably wouldn't have a variant model because they're so early in tech that the number of upgrades then would be limited.

deadliver
May 20, 2009, 06:37 PM
A ranged attack golem would be cool.

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 06:39 PM
Clockwork Golem w/Cannon. Come on! It'd be AWESOME. The only question is, chest cannon or shoulder-mounted?

WarKirby
May 20, 2009, 06:43 PM
I'd say Chest Cannon personally. Though Shoulder Mounted might be easier

although I'm not sure how the art for that would work. always something to learn

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 06:45 PM
Some sort of clockwork-looking barrel I suppose, mounted in classic giant robot style. Classic Shoulder-mounted Cannon (http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/rx-75-4.jpg). For a chest cannon you'd actually need even less - just an open spot in the middle, maybe with some detail, flourish, and if you wanna get real fancy visible gears.

Vermicious Knid
May 20, 2009, 06:50 PM
Anyone ever read Iron Council?


One of the main characters in that was a golem maker...but he could make temporary golems on the fly using whatever materials were available. In FF it would work like a summons spell, basically. You could set terrain-based requirements for a line of summon spells. Bone golem cast on a graveyard, Rock golem cast on a hill, etc.... You could have another line of promotions representing advanced golem-making techniques allowing flying golems, magic-immune golems, etc...


...and now I want to see art for a cow golem. Summon Cow Golem, castable only on a pasture, produces a mooing abomination formed of a pile of innocent cows.

civ_king
May 20, 2009, 06:56 PM
I'm thinking I'll probably make this a Luchuirp+ sort of thing, in which case I would like some help in general because I'm not always clear on how exactly certain things work (my modding previous to this has mostly been XML tweaks). Also, I like the idea of Metal Golems that get upgrades for Bronze/Iron/Mythril the way other units can use weapons of each type.

**** no, completely against lore

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 07:00 PM
**** no, completely against lore

Explain? They clearly have some interaction with Mythril, given one of the Golems is only available AFTER Mythril Weapons tech. What's so terrible about Mythril Golems as an analogue for others having Mythril Weapons? I assume you're considering the Mythril Golem hero, but, well... he's a Hero. If all else fails, we rename him Mythril Titan to differentiate him.

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 07:02 PM
Anyone ever read Iron Council?


One of the main characters in that was a golem maker...but he could make temporary golems on the fly using whatever materials were available. In FF it would work like a summons spell, basically. You could set terrain-based requirements for a line of summon spells. Bone golem cast on a graveyard, Rock golem cast on a hill, etc.... You could have another line of promotions representing advanced golem-making techniques allowing flying golems, magic-immune golems, etc...


...and now I want to see art for a cow golem. Summon Cow Golem, castable only on a pasture, produces a mooing abomination formed of a pile of innocent cows.

Barring the extremely disturbing image of a Cow Golem, being able to summon Golems (who could then be upgraded at cities) is actually a good idea and could create nasty Golem/Adept/Golem synergies, where a Golem with promotions to aid Adepts helps that Adept summon more Golems until you have a stupid-awesome army of doom.

ICanHasName?
May 20, 2009, 09:29 PM
MEAT GOLEM!!!

I'm sure we could think of fun mechanics for that (yes I know thats backwards game design but still...)

Valkrionn
May 20, 2009, 11:06 PM
First, I'd like to say this is an excellent idea... I'm willing to help with whatever you need. :goodjob: Of course, that's partially so I can later steal it... :lol:

Explain? They clearly have some interaction with Mythril, given one of the Golems is only available AFTER Mythril Weapons tech. What's so terrible about Mythril Golems as an analogue for others having Mythril Weapons? I assume you're considering the Mythril Golem hero, but, well... he's a Hero. If all else fails, we rename him Mythril Titan to differentiate him.

The main issue here is that it took direct intervention by Kilmorph to imbue Mithril with the necessary magic... Although you could get around that by saying it's just an Iron Golem, in Mithril armor.

Thuellai
May 20, 2009, 11:08 PM
Well, yeah. That's kind of the idea - the Bronze/Iron/Mythril Body promotions are their version of the Weapons others can get. He's still a base Metal Golem, just with his body sheathed in Mythril to make him more awesome. As opposed to the Mithril Golem Hero, who is a Golem actually made of pure Mythril. And you're definitely someone I'd like helping me on this.

cyther
May 21, 2009, 04:48 PM
I really like the ideas of this mod, they would be great for spicing up the Luchurip. I probably will use whatever is made in Rise of Darkness.

It's sort of sad really. Like fangirls all of the interesting features all flocked to the "bad" civs and left the goody Bannor and others all alone in the cold.

Making golems on terrain or improvements would be interesting too but I truely fear a pigs resource spawning a golem made of porkrinds.

Valkrionn
May 21, 2009, 05:07 PM
It'll make it's way into FFPlus too. :goodjob: I had been thinking about what civ to work on next, but got sidetracked by the Mechanos... You've solved that problem nicely. :lol:

I've noticed that too though.... Most of the civs that are powerful, are evil. We need more strong Good civilizations. :lol:

Vermicious Knid
May 21, 2009, 06:58 PM
It'll make it's way into FFPlus too. :goodjob: I had been thinking about what civ to work on next, but got sidetracked by the Mechanos... You've solved that problem nicely. :lol:

I've noticed that too though.... Most of the civs that are powerful, are evil. We need more strong Good civilizations. :lol:


Llosaljafar, Malakim, and Mazatl are all strong good guys with interesting mechanics. Sounds like the gnomes are on their way to relevance.

Fall Flat had some good stuff for the Amurites. They probably aren't far from viability. Need a cool mechanic of some sort.

Kuriotates would be fun if their weakness wasn't so crippling. Weren't they supposed to get Lamias at some point? They could use a little love in general.

I haven't played the Elohim in Fall Further...so no comment.

Dural are boring as hell, in my opinion.

Ditto for Bannor.

Who else is there?

Opera
May 21, 2009, 07:11 PM
Llosaljafar, Malakim, and Mazatl are all strong good guys with interesting mechanics. Sounds like the gnomes are on their way to relevance.

Fall Flat had some good stuff for the Amurites. They probably aren't far from viability. Need a cool mechanic of some sort.

Kuriotates would be fun if their weakness wasn't so crippling. Weren't they supposed to get Lamias at some point? They could use a little love in general.

I haven't played the Elohim in Fall Further...so no comment.

Dural are boring as hell, in my opinion.

Ditto for Bannor.

Who else is there?Ljosalfar aren't good per se. Arendel is but that's all. I tend to think of them as neutral rather than good. In fact, I actually think the same for the Svartalfar. Faeryl is evil, yes (maybe), but the civilization itself isn't imo. Elves just seem neutrals. End of digression :p

I don't think there is another good civ (but my memory may fail me). There is many more evil civs than good ones.

Vermicious Knid
May 21, 2009, 07:52 PM
What would make Bannor interesting to play?


If I understand correctly, they are a good empire that survived the Age of Ice? Their one and only unique mechanic is a fairly powerful civic option. Assassins are pretty useless against them.

Hmmm. Not much there. Jotnar and Lizards have equally interesting powerful civics. So do the Elves (nobody else can effectively use it).

No other civ has a Knight theme...maybe that? Templars, dismounted super-heavy infantry(champions), halberdiers (axemen), Clerics that can use faith-based stack enhancers. Courage liberally distributed as a free promotion. Perhaps a mechanical representation of their tendency to charge headlong into danger? Quest events?

Another way to take it is make them a good counterpart to the Orcs (who are mutant ex-Bannor if I understand correctly). Throw the orc-slaying promotion around. Put their mounted line on some other animal...there is a giraffe rider in the database, but that doesn't feel right. Lions? At the very least use lions for their hunters and such. Courage as a free promotion. They used to be fans of Bhaal pre-fall, so give their tier 3 and 4 melee/mounted units Strong and Crazed. Maybe a "cleansing fire" theme. Lots of inquisitor ability, extra population loss when conquering cities.

MagisterCultuum
May 21, 2009, 08:09 PM
The Bannor are descended from those followers of Bhall who remained pure but fell with her into hell, thus avoiding the Age of Ice and returning once it was over.

I think that making Courage or Valor the Bannor Racial promotion, or maybe just having it apply to units built in their capital, could be a good idea. I don't like the idea of giving them crazed at all, as they are very orderly and their peculiar form of insanity is not one associated with the uncontrollable rage that Crazed would lead to. Strong would probably be overpowered.


I don't like the way their towns spawn units randomly during a crusade, as it is not good for the economy and it doesn't happen where the troops are really needed. I think it would be better to remove the automatic spawning and give the Bannor a special recruit spell for use in villages/towns.

It could be nice if Bannor forts/villages would spawn their own defenders when encroached upon.

deadliver
May 22, 2009, 12:52 AM
It could be nice if Bannor forts/villages would spawn their own defenders when encroached upon.

Exactly my sentiment, or their villages should provide defensive bonuses considering the pedia does mention that bannor lands are well defended. Either one would be justified I think.

Regarding courage or valor as a promo, I guess Guardsman is okay...in numbers but i could see valor or courage. The Bannor strike me really as a paladin realm, like the Cormyr in Forgotten Realms.

Vermicious Knid
May 22, 2009, 10:33 AM
The Bannor are descended from those followers of Bhall who remained pure but fell with her into hell, thus avoiding the Age of Ice and returning once it was over.

I think that making Courage or Valor the Bannor Racial promotion, or maybe just having it apply to units built in their capital, could be a good idea. I don't like the idea of giving them crazed at all, as they are very orderly and their peculiar form of insanity is not one associated with the uncontrollable rage that Crazed would lead to. Strong would probably be overpowered.


I don't like the way their towns spawn units randomly during a crusade, as it is not good for the economy and it doesn't happen where the troops are really needed. I think it would be better to remove the automatic spawning and give the Bannor a special recruit spell for use in villages/towns.

It could be nice if Bannor forts/villages would spawn their own defenders when encroached upon.

You see, that is an awesome backstory right there. Not boring at all. But that backstory doesn't come across in the game. I had to go delving into the lore forum to find out more...and a race of fanatics that were dragged down to hell and managed to fight there way back out more or less unscathed should be anything but boring to play.

I can see where guardsman came from as a civ trait (a vacation in hell makes you jumpy). That promo isn't really significant until you start facing assassins though...and when it does become useful it isn't terribly flashy.

Perhaps as a first step change the civ trait to something more flavorful/exciting? As a first stab...

Tempered: Free promotion for just about every unit. Immune to Fear, 25% resistance to death/fire/unholy, +25% vs. illusions. Allows guardsman and access to a number of xenophobia-themed promotions (elfslayer, orcslayer, dwarfslayer, giantslayer, etc...).

Represents that they were hardened and tested in their journey out of hell. They are well-equipped to battle demons and undead, and very wary of the "impure".

WarKirby
May 22, 2009, 01:47 PM
Why not go make another thread for bannor discussion. This one is about luchuirp and golems

Brokenbone
May 22, 2009, 01:59 PM
Y'know how the Clan has Warrens which double the production of living units? Something like that for Luchiurp, applicable only to golems, may be interesting. Maybe the second one starts out with a "Spare Parts" promotion which is the equivalent of "Weak" (-1 att/def), maybe blocks any Master equipment promotions if "fancy after market add ons" become part of this Luchiurp rethinking, but to at least give it something that makes it worth its maintenance costs, maybe let it sacrifice itself to cast Repair or a juiced up version of Repair on its stack.

Anyhow, golem factories spitting out not just "perfect" product, but "surplus, scratch and dent stuff" as an afterthought, possibly unreliable through some negative promotions etc. like suggested above, or different handicaps (double terrain cost, susceptibility to additional damage types, weakness, randomly losing all movement points once in awhile, dunno), may be a little something to fool around with. Again, if you're racing against Armageddon, there's certain weapons of war you'll take pride in, but you might have a waste-not / want-not attitude about your cannon fodder or reinforcements for garrisons etc. (picture three dwarven slingers and one half-blind one legged Iron Golem!)