So, I'm planning on introducing the White Hand religion. Quite a bit of argument going on in the FFPlus thread about how to do it, so I'm starting this new one to see how other people feel about it..... The basic plan is to have the Illians found it when they build the White Hand ritual. It will have a low spread, and very low adoption rates... It's basically an anti-AV religion. If Hell is spreading through your lands, following the White Hand will help save you. Mostly inspired by KillerClowns 'Paradise' story...

I'm thinking that adopting it will at the least cause AI civs to become vassals to Auric. Human players as well, if I can get it working correctly... Leaving the religion will cause you to break free. Going to quote all the opinions here. :lol:


Everything was destroyed. Johnathon's home city had been turned to ash by a single, terrible man who dressed as a king and warped minds with words. His family was dead. The Bannor empire was crumbling, and he knew it. The Hell they had escaped those many years ago had come for them, and this time, it was succeeding. But Johnathon had escaped, and fled to seek the single glimmer of hope that shined in the black night of the living hell Erebus had become.

He and a ragged band of survivors were seeking something that was only spoken of in whispers and rumors: the Paradise. A land untouched by Hell, if only they could slip unnoticed through Balseraph territory. It was probably a rumor, a fool's dream, if not an outright trap. But what else was there? Foolish dreams, at least, were better than despair. Those who died did so believing that their children, brethren, or friends might make it to Paradise instead.

Nobody prayed. Junil had failed. Lugus had forsaken them. Kilmorph gave nothing. Some had even turned in desperation to the Overlords, but they had also given up Erebus to the might of Agares. But it was said that even Agares himself could not touch Paradise.

To pass the time, the survivors swapped stories of woe; there were no other kinds. An elderly man, among the oldest of the group but still relatively healthy, said, “I hear the Doviello fell. Utterly destroyed. Never thought I'd be so sad to hear that news.” There were nods of agreement; the beastmen had been as fierce and unforgiving as animals, but at least they were better than the Infernals.

There was a time of silence, then another piped in. “They say there's a fourth horseman. It's only a guess... something has been leaving a trail of devastation worse than the other three. No prisoners, no survivors, villages just... disappear.” Things were getting worse and worse.

Said yet another, “can't be any nastier than the third. Disease and death followed him everywhere... I've only heard, people who actually see him tend to die horrible deaths from the diseases... provided he doesn't kill them first.”

A younger man put in what he'd heard: “they say the first horseman, the King, tried to invade Paradise.” Gasps and murmurs of horror. “But they killed him! Yeah, they killed him and took his crown! Been getting ready to do the same to the other two... three now, I guess.” Most wanted the tale to be true, but doubted it. Could the Horsemen be slain at all?

Said another, “even if so, what about the Balseraphs? They're near as bad as the Infernals. Think it's all just some grand game, love nothing more than torturing people. Break their souls, make them worship Agares so they can turn them into demons. But not before breaking their bodies and minds... entertainment, they reckon it is. Horrifying. Every Balseraph is just a demon in a human-shaped egg, says I.” Nods of agreement.

They'd encountered Balseraphs before, a few times, and each had been a desperate fight. The survivors couldn't afford to take prisoners or leave any Balseraphs to report their existence, and they dare not be captured alive themselves, so each encounter was a savage struggle to the death. After the first encounter, cannibalism had also become accepted policy; they couldn't afford to waste food or leave bodies.

There was a change in the plains of ash ahead. The eldest of the group smiled from ear to ear. “Come on!” he yelled as he ran, with suprising speed, towards what seemed to be another ashen plain. The rest of the group, inspired if somewhat confused, tried to keep pace.

When the old man reached the change in ash, he scooped the new stuff up. Except it wasn't ash. It was a strange, pure white powder, which the old man clumped into a ball and, grinning like a child, threw at Johnathon. It was cold, and upon touching Johnathon, began to turn into water. “Snow!” the old man yelled. “It's snow! It's been too long since I've seen snow!” He laughed and danced. “This is it! We've made it! The Illian Empire! Hell has no power here! Paradise!”

The air grew cold surprisingly fast as the group dragged itself towards the promised land. A rabbit, white as the snow around it, examined them. It was the first non-demonic animal they had seen for months, sometimes years. The youngest Bannor stared, half expecting it to bare razor sharp teeth, spit fire at them, or roar. But it seemed as frightened of them as they were of it.

A hunter, previously invisible, swathed in furs, appeared and speared the creature. He grabbed his catch, then noticed the ragged band approaching. “More refugees? By Auric... luckily for you, I've been told we need all the hands we can get, but first things first. Listen up, and listen well. I am to have you take the Oath.” The group stopped, and listened. “Do you agree to abandon your old gods?” The survivors nodded. One said, “they abandoned us first!” “So they did,” said the hunter. “Do you agree to serve Auric, in this world and the next?” Again, they gave their consent. “Do you agree to abide by the laws and customs of the Illian people?” And again, they agreed. “Then I welcome you...” the hunter couldn't even finish his sentence before the group cheered.



Why isent that already implemented? The WH would make a nice religion for anyone to adopt.

I would love to see a scenarion where AV has ruined the world and thretenes to destroy all and only the ultimate force of the White Hand and winter can stop it.

Esentialy, using one great evil power to fight the other.

I don't think that auto vasalisation would be a good thing for the white hand.
The way I see it, who ever follows it, means that the said leader is competing for the place as the rightful heir of Mulcan.

Technically, the religion should focus on freezing the world to return to the "Good old days".
Maybe as a neat alternative to the hot and flaming hell poping up all round us.

It should have a completely different meaning to normal civs than it has to the Ilians.

Alternatively, as someone said on the Assimilating Erebus thread:
"The ice queen will have peace! Even if it means freezing the world to do it."

I see it more as people coming to the Illians as beggars, hoping they can save their empire from Hell. That's entirely from KillerClown's amazing story though. :lol:

Er... I can not imagine empires coming to beg one evil against the other.
Why not just call the Bannor? They will do the job cleaner and without asking for anything in return.

What if there is no Bannor? What if Bannor is the one begging the White Hand for salvation? If the only remaining faction able to save Erebus from the hellfire of the Armageddon is the White Hand, what leader would not make that choice to save their people?

You should read KillerClown's story. It paints a wonderful picture.

Personally, I think that if I had a choice between Auric, and Hell, I'd go with Auric...... The Bannor can collapse because of hell terrain spread as easily as any other empire. Only the Illians are impervious...... and those who follow the White Hand.


The thing is that I can never realize that someone would bow to Auric as his master.
Even with the Infernals you do not bow down to them and submit, but you sign a pact of non aggression, friendship or what ever.

You are suggesting outright vasalisation.


By following the White Hand, you'd essentially be worshiping Auric. I think becoming his vassal emulates that nicely.


You could argue the same about AV and the infernal. But that sounds truly and apsolutely lame.
Would it not be more logical to have worshiping the White Hand be like saying:
"I am the one who should ascend into the new frost god! Not that wolf pelt clad frost boy."

Sounds a lot more well normal.

Auric is currently the only one capable of ascending, as far as I am aware. He was basically chosen by the sphere of Ice. Only way someone else could ascend, would be to kill him. And that's not the way I want to go with the religion at all.

The same way as only that H. guy can really win in a AV scenario.
But people still compete with him, not for his favor.

Plus that I think that vasalisation would be a bad way to go as no human would willingly adopt the religion and the potential for the AI to cluster up in 1 block would be massive.


Regarding the discussion of the White Hand and vassals:
1 - As I understand it, Auric is already being possessed by the divine spark, so it's him as the new god of winter or nothing. You can't throw your hat into the ring.
2 - If you do vassalization, the AI should be blocked from demanding resources from a human. I foresee many potential errors if you refuse and the game tries to break a vassalization that is coded in. An alliance would work a lot better and make more sense, but I'm not sure there's a way to undo that if you decide to change religions later on.

White Hand seems like it shouldn't be a religion you 'want', but a 3rd alternative to AV or death. It would be silly to see an entire continent go WH just because it got there first. Vassalization sortof reflects that. Plus that seems like something Auric would do.

I envision there being alot of issues though, vasalization is buggy even without a human being a vassal.

Kael has stated that Auric is not the literal reincarnation of Mulcarn, and does not possess the same divine spark. He was however touched by birth by the leaderless precept of ice and chosen to be its new leader. I suspect that the sphere would seek a new god once he dies. The only real remnant of Mulcarn was the divine breath that dwells in Barnaxus and gives the golem life beyond that possible for a mere enchantment machine. It is however possible that this breath was transferred entirely to Auric and that it might be a necessary part of the ascension process, so maybe after Beneath the Heel Auric is the only one who can become the new God of Winter.



I think that forcing anyone following The White Hand religion to be a vassal to Auric once they meet him makes sense. Or, if you wanted to make it even stronger, you could make it impossible for anyone following this religion to deny any demand from Auric whatsoever (or at least not be able to keep the religion otherwise)




Agares and Mulcarn/Auric have rather different governing philosophies. Agares prefers that those loyal to him compete for his affections so he never enforces a hierarchy and doesn't really care if those loyal to him are loyal to his lieutenants. Agares is unable to enter Creation directly and his servants often have ulterior motives, so followers of the Veil could easily rationalize that the particular demons with whom they deal don't have any real authority from their god. Most of those following the veil don't even seem to know about Agares though, so I'd guess only the high priests need concern themselves with such questions. Mulcarn/Auric on the other hand, prefer an order as harsh and stagnant as Junil's. Auric is present in Creation, so their is little excuse for creative interpretations of his wishes. Followers of The Hand had better do exactly what he tells them to do.

I'd like to see other civs able to adopt it in games where the Illians aren't in play.


Doviello, for example. Amurites for a crazier alternate reality. Etc...


Maybe have the Illians found it with their first city...but also allow it to be founded later if the Illians ain't in the game?

With this, and the story as inspiration, you should also make it to were diplomacy with the infernals is a lot harder, and the only way that you'd not be attacked by them is by the wonder. Also give them a higher bonus in hell terrain, and allow it to spread in good lands at 80 or 90 AC. That'd make this more fesable, and do some much needed changes to the hell system. Also allow the white hand to be founded at a late tech, possibly strength of will for when the Illidans aren't in play. Something like the only way the Amurites could see to stop hell is to dig deeper into magic, and within that, they find Mulcran (or something like that), and he makes them his new high priests.

The way I see it, Ice would be a alternate hellish scenarion, not a salvation...

awesome... I've been wanting this for a while :D

With this, and the story as inspiration, you should also make it to were diplomacy with the infernals is a lot harder, and the only way that you'd not be attacked by them is by the wonder. Also give them a higher bonus in hell terrain, and allow it to spread in good lands at 80 or 90 AC. That'd make this more fesable, and do some much needed changes to the hell system. Also allow the white hand to be founded at a late tech, possibly strength of will for when the Illidans aren't in play. Something like the only way the Amurites could see to stop hell is to dig deeper into magic, and within that, they find Mulcran (or something like that), and he makes them his new high priests.

Yeah, I'll end up making hell changes. Possibly make the changes Magister talks about for the Infernals... Massively stronger, unable to enter non-hell terrain, hell spread to good civs at AC 90, some units able to actively spread hell, etc. Having it foundable at a late tech could work..... Just have to decide WHAT tech. The way you described wouldn't work, as Mulcarn is 100% dead. Can't empower a priest in that manner, it would have to be the same way Auric was empowered.

Hmm..... Maybe a religious tech, available with Divination/Alteration (To divine Mulcarn's successor, and to begin transforming the land to ice) that can found the religion if the Illians are not in game, and opens a membership civic that increases Ice yields slightly, just enough to live on. Possibly have it be an entirely new council, and council head is automatically whoever controls the Holy City?

The way I see it, Ice would be a alternate hellish scenarion, not a salvation...

Ice IS a bad thing, but it's the lesser evil. People can survive it, albeit not in a way they'd prefer. Hell, on the other hand, is hell. The Bannor survived it, yes, but they also had the leadership of an Angel.

I'd like to see other civs able to adopt it in games where the Illians aren't in play.


Doviello, for example. Amurites for a crazier alternate reality. Etc...


Maybe have the Illians found it with their first city...but also allow it to be founded later if the Illians ain't in the game?

I have to strongly disagree here. No.

It makes no sense at all if the illians are not there This should be foundable by the illians, and only the illians. And having them in the game should be a requirement.

I love the lore, by the way. I really love this idea. As long as you're working on this, I'd suggest as a first port of call, making Priests of Winter available to buiild at priesthood. Requiring a temple of the hand. Reduce their strength to 5 to match up with other priests.

What other things are planned for the White Hand religion? i'd personally suggest making Drifa a White Hand religious hero, instead of an illian civ hero. The illians are still pretty likely to get her, but not certain. Vassalisation to the illians for adopting it sounds good also, for both humans and AI.

Serving auric should bring some incentive to help the illians in their mission too. So perhaps any civ following the White Hand should get +1 food from snow, and possibly +1 :hammers: too. That would make snow as good as plains for non-illian White Hand civs. not quite as good as the +2 :food: that illians get, but it makes snow useable.

I'd advise against new civics personally. The civic screen is getting a bit cluttered as is, and I think the last thing we need is even more "options" that are in fact very restricted to a select group. Unless you could do dll work to not show invalid civics in that menu. (ie, not seeing lost lands unless you play mazatl)

I'd also suggest making it possible for that to stack with the Doviello's natural +1 food from snow, so that if the doviello adopt the White hand, they get on an equal footing with the illians in terms of snow output. Since they're both northern races, this seems fair.

And I think the White Hand needs a disciple unit too, to spread it. Buildable at Mysticism.

Thought;

Vassalization should perhaps come at Auric's ascension, not before.

He's not god /yet/, after all.

That would actualy make sense.
Once he starts the ritual, all non WH civs declare war on him and all WH civs become his vasals or beter yet, perma allies.

Thought;

Vassalization should perhaps come at Auric's ascension, not before.

He's not god /yet/, after all.

I disagree. The white hand is essentially worshipping the illian leader. he may not technically be a god yet, but he;s a powerful mage and is treated like a god. Vassalage indicates the proper respect, and also ties you together with the illians. It's only right that you would have to help in their wars. An enemy of the illians is an enemy of winter, and must be exterminated. If not a vassal, then at least something like a permanant alliance.

The vassal status would also make you exept from being declared war on when The Draw is used

The real issue is making sure the dumb AIs accept the White Hand as a religion of last resort,(except perhaps the Doviello) with much of the world burning, not just because the Illians say so while there are other viable religions out there.

The entire concept sounds to me as all Flavour and no reguard to gameplay, balance or god forbit the AI.

I think the vassalization may be going too far but I like the idea of using the White Hand to counter the world going to a fiery hell. However I think that perhaps this should either be expressed through a scenario or a game option.

The real issue is making sure the dumb AIs accept the White Hand as a religion of last resort,(except perhaps the Doviello) with much of the world burning, not just because the Illians say so while there are other viable religions out there.

Trust me, I will not release it unless I can get the AI to use it correctly. :lol:

The entire concept sounds to me as all Flavour and no regard to gameplay.

I have to completely disagree. Yes, I'm trying to make gameplay correspond to the pre-existing Flavour, but ONLY because I see a need for it. Right now, the only options with Hell are A) Build massive armies and station them on your borders, along with Sanctity adepts, B) Convert to AV and build Pax Diabolis, which the AI can't do effectively, or C) Play as Sheiam or Infernal. This will add a D) Adopt the White Hand. The Hand will hurt your empire, but not nearly as much as hell terrain, or having demons destroy your empire.

The illian AI should pursue a strategy of aggressively expanding and conquering, but should seek only to vassalize, not destroy. Also, remove that stupid requirement for summoning drifa, of having completely destroyed a Civ. I really don't like that.

Simply make it so that when a civ capitulates to the illians, they automatically adopt white hand. It is forced upon them as their state religion, and becomes present in their capital. Possibly, it would be nice if it could even be forced upon agnostic civs. As opposed to religion as he is, I think Cassiel would probably still rather his people serve auric, than agares, if forced to make that choice. Because when the enemy you fight comes from hell, death is not an escape. So it's not even a choice of religion or die, because to die is to go into infernal service.

As long as a civ is under illian rule, they can't change their state religion to anything else. And if they manage to break free from vassalization, they are automatically kicked out of WH and free to choose a religion again.

More white hand can only help the game. Divination as a prereq for the founding tech sounds fine.

I'm assuming the shrine will provide Ice mana? :lol:

Other WH ideas/questions:

1. Somebody (warkirby?) proposed adding a 4th barbarian faction for the Frostlings, which would start at peace with the Illians. I think that would be killer. Non-Illian WH should be able to have peace with them through a ritual. Frostling forts/igloos as a spawning lair?

2. Religious heroes: Drifa or Wilboman would be logical, obviously. Perhaps Mokka as well?

3. For heaven's sake, give Mokka his cauldron as a piece of equipment. Not sure exactly what it does in the lore...but maybe have it spawn frozen zombies or some such after combat?

4. Frostlings as religious UU? Frost Giants? (yes, I know they are technically extinct). Winter wolves?

The illian AI should pursue a strategy of aggressively expanding and conquering, but should seek only to vassalize, not destroy. Also, remove that stupid requirement for summoning drifa, of having completely destroyed a Civ. I really don't like that.

Simply make it so that when a civ capitulates to the illians, they automatically adopt white hand. It is forced upon them as their state religion, and becomes present in their capital. Possibly, it would be nice if it could even be forced upon agnostic civs. As opposed to religion as he is, I think Cassiel would probably still rather his people serve auric, than agares, if forced to make that choice. Because when the enemy you fight comes from hell, death is not an escape. So it's not even a choice of religion or die, because to die is to go into infernal service.

As long as a civ is under illian rule, they can't change their state religion to anything else. And if they manage to break free from vassalization, they are automatically kicked out of WH and free to choose a religion again.

If Cassiel were willing to adopt the religion of a jackass God to save his people from hell, he would not be Agnostic. His stance is that people shouldn't be puppets of the gods period, I thought. Not "People shouldn't be puppets of the Gods, unless that just happens to be how I keep them safe from one God."

Granted, Agn. usually really means "Homegrown cultural religion", not /actually/ denying the current religions.

The reason I said "No vassalization til Ascension" is that there are reasons to have the facade of worship without actual worship :P

Can Auric's demands be done like the UN? Just "Yes" or "NEVER!", to get the :E penalty from denying it.

Yeah I think Cassiel would avoid the White Hand as much as any other religion. After all he could join Order for the good alignment benefit if he were willing to use religion to protect against hell. Seeing as he does not, the same holds true for White Hand simple as that.

Guess what, that means Auric would get pissed and have to convert by the sword one of the few leaders not willing to bow down and acknowledge/respect him as a god (not THE God, but a god).

If Cassiel were willing to adopt the religion of a jackass God to save his people from hell, he would not be Agnostic. His stance is that people shouldn't be puppets of the gods period, I thought. Not "People shouldn't be puppets of the Gods, unless that just happens to be how I keep them safe from one God."

Granted, Agn. usually really means "Homegrown cultural religion", not /actually/ denying the current religions.


It's not about being willing, though. If demons are invading his land, his people WILL serve one god or another. It's a case of choosing between them. Dying isn't an option. Don't nonbelievers go to hell anyway?


Another point. Even if cassiel isn't willing to choose, isn't it likely that people would rise up and overthrow him? As far as I'm aware, the grigori trust cassiel for his wise advice. If his advice is just to face certain death, I'm inclined to think they'd ignore it. And if he tries to force them to remain godless, remember that the grigori have a ton of superpowered heroes, and cassiel, though powerful, is not invincible. I think Os-Gabella is the only leader who is actually invincible. The heroes serve the people, not the angels (of which cassiel is one) so I can see Cabal Tenhare striking Cassiel down if he tries to doom his people.

After all, unswerving obedience is one thing cassiel deliberately avoids instilling in his people, encouraging them to think for themselves instead. Violent revolution seems more likely among the grigori than any other race I can think of.

Also, Cassiel may be a highly principled person, but the common man is not. And would gladly worship an evil god to save their own skin. Even if it means abandoning the grigori entirely, and going to the illians as a refugee.

It's not about being willing, though. If demons are invading his land, his people WILL serve one god or another. It's a case of choosing between them. Dying isn't an option. Don't nonbelievers go to hell anyway?


Another point. Even if cassiel isn't willing to choose, isn't it likely that people would rise up and overthrow him? As far as I'm aware, the grigori trust cassiel for his wise advice. If his advice is just to face certain death, I'm inclined to think they'd ignore it. And if he tries to force them to remain godless, remember that the grigori have a ton of superpowered heroes, and cassiel, though powerful, is not invincible. I think Os-Gabella is the only leader who is actually invincible. The heroes serve the people, not the angels (of which cassiel is one) so I can see Cabal Tenhare striking Cassiel down if he tries to doom his people.

Also, Cassiel may be a highly principled person, but the common man is not. And would gladly worship an evil god to save their own skin. Even if it means abandoning the grigori entirely, and going to the illians as a refugee.


Using that rationale Cassiel should lose population from his cities as people flee to the Illians in such a scenario rather than suddenly compromise one of the civ's basic flavours (or lack of flavour). As I mentioned before why shouldn't he suddenly choose another religion such as one of the ones that would grant his civ good alignment (which is protection enough for now until the AC is changed)

Using that rationale Cassiel should lose population from his cities as people flee to the Illians in such a scenario rather than suddenly compromise one of the civ's basic flavours (or lack of flavour). As I mentioned before why shouldn't he suddenly choose another religion such as one of the ones that would grant his civ good alignment (which is protection enough for now until the AC is changed)

Because going Order might keep hell out of his territory, but it's not going to kill the hordes of demons that simply walk over his borders. Those Demon-slaying crusaders might seem nice, but Combat IV manticores will eat them for breakfast. Hyborem doesn't care what religion you are when he comes for you. Only if you have a big enough army to oppose him, which is often not the case. In a recent game I played, AV was founded early, and hyborem appeared in a vast uncolonised area to the south of the main continent. He had a continent spanning empire and crushed everything around him. Only my Vast tech lead and (probably overpowered) doviello army allowed me to stand against the 40-champion stacks of doom hyborem was sending at me. Every AI between me and him was annhilated quickly.

Adopting white hand is more than just taking on a religion. It's also taking on the protection of the illians. It's relying on Auric Ascended to stand against the forces of hell. No other religion offers a literal god to fight on your side. It's not a "good" option at all. It's choosing the lesser of two evils. It's the last hope when the bannor are crushed, the holy city of Order lies in ruins, when sphener and valin phanuel have been annhilated.

For the case of this to happen in game, the illians are going to have to be powerful enough to vassalise others. As far as I'm aware, AI civs tend to surrender to whoever they feel is most likely to be able to protect them, strongest civ generally. So it would work perfectly in a case where the illians and infernals are the two largest civs, and the infernals are on a warpath (as they frequently do)

It's not about being willing, though. If demons are invading his land, his people WILL serve one god or another. It's a case of choosing between them. Dying isn't an option. Don't nonbelievers go to hell anyway?
Nonbelievers go to Arawn's vault, I'm pretty sure. And the whole point of the Grigori is to say "My Sword is the Sword that will slash the heavens!" You beat Hell down with pure human will.

Another point. Even if cassiel isn't willing to choose, isn't it likely that people would rise up and overthrow him? As far as I'm aware, the grigori trust cassiel for his wise advice. If his advice is just to face certain death, I'm inclined to think they'd ignore it. And if he tries to force them to remain godless, remember that the grigori have a ton of superpowered heroes, and cassiel, though powerful, is not invincible. I think Os-Gabella is the only leader who is actually invincible. The heroes serve the people, not the angels (of which cassiel is one) so I can see Cabal Tenhare striking Cassiel down if he tries to doom his people.
If it gets to the point where it's certain death, he's simple to conquer anyway. Just kill him off.

After all, unswerving obedience is one thing cassiel deliberately avoids instilling in his people, encouraging them to think for themselves instead. Violent revolution seems more likely among the grigori than any other race I can think of.
More likely then among the civs that outright prize violence? Really?

Also, Cassiel may be a highly principled person, but the common man is not. And would gladly worship an evil god to save their own skin. Even if it means abandoning the grigori entirely, and going to the illians as a refugee.
That's not really vassalizing, though.

Because going Order might keep hell out of his territory, but it's not going to kill the hordes of demons that simply walk over his borders. Those Demon-slaying crusaders might seem nice, but Combat IV manticores will eat them for breakfast. Hyborem doesn't care what religion you are when he comes for you. Only if you have a big enough army to oppose him, which is often not the case. In a recent game I played, AV was founded early, and hyborem appeared in a vast uncolonised area to the south of the main continent. He had a continent spanning empire and crushed everything around him. Only my Vast tech lead and (probably overpowered) doviello army allowed me to stand against the 40-champion stacks of doom hyborem was sending at me. Every AI between me and him was annhilated quickly.
I thought you were a better player then me. Even I can take down the hordes of hell.

I have to completely disagree. Yes, I'm trying to make gameplay correspond to the pre-existing Flavour, but ONLY because I see a need for it. Right now, the only options with Hell are A) Build massive armies and station them on your borders, along with Sanctity adepts, B) Convert to AV and build Pax Diabolis, which the AI can't do effectively, or C) Play as Sheiam or Infernal. This will add a D) Adopt the White Hand. The Hand will hurt your empire, but not nearly as much as hell terrain, or having demons destroy your empire.
You forgot option E: play as the Elohim. Also, I thought I remembered Ancient Forests being hellproof, that might be an option F. Assuming this religion thing continues to take off and we get to the Scions, Haunted Lands should be made to offer yet another alternative.
Using that rationale Cassiel should lose population from his cities as people flee to the Illians in such a scenario rather than suddenly compromise one of the civ's basic flavours (or lack of flavour). As I mentioned before why shouldn't he suddenly choose another religion such as one of the ones that would grant his civ good alignment (which is protection enough for now until the AC is changed)
You already lose population, it's called having your cities razed :). And if that isn't happening, you're probably doing a pretty good job of holding hell at bay.

Cassiel will never be allowed to adopt a religion. That's one thing I'm not going to change. ;)

Do the Elohim get special protection from Hell? If so, I was unaware of it... The Cult of the Emperor and the Lizard religions will probably be done via corporations. I don't see many people worshiping the Emperor unless they've been given the gift....

Ancient forests are not hellproof

Cassiel will never be allowed to adopt a religion. That's one thing I'm not going to change. ;)

Do the Elohim get special protection from Hell? If so, I was unaware of it... The Cult of the Emperor and the Lizard religions will probably be done via corporations. I don't see many people worshiping the Emperor unless they've been given the gift....

Devouts start with Life 1, and can upgrade into Paladins, Priests, and Shadows. It makes a HUGE difference when your entire army is auto-sanctifying everywhere. Also, Shadows whose entire purpose is to sneak behind enemy lines and remove hell always amuses me. Sanctuary is also a really good spell for when the horsemen start to show up.

When it comes time for the Lizard religions, I'd suggest something a lot like what Orbis has: give them the normal religions but with unique units and buildings. They're technically worshiping the same gods, just under different names.

The Cult of the Emperor, whether as a religion or a corporation, is not something I see anyone wanting to adopt. It would mainly be an internal thing and an offensive tool, something that you can spread to mess with your opponents.

That's what I have planned for the cult. The lizards, I'm leaving Agnostic..... when they were rebalanced so they were no longer agnostic too much had to be removed, and I don't like the loss of flavour there.

Cassiel, like other agnostic leaders, should be a pain in your arse when it comes to religion.

In many games (mostly evil...wait that includes Auric!) I have spread religion in his cities as a prelude to conquering his arse.

Even the mighty WarKirby has done the same. Guess what... Cassiel is a stubborn leader who refuses to adopt a religion regardless of the consequences.

The Consequences=I invade and completely obliterate you because you refuse to adopt a religion (MINE).

If you do something with the Cult of the Emperor, I suggest adding Agnostic to Korinna too. I mean really, she's got to be at least as devoted to THE EMPRAH as THE EMPRAH himself. No sense in /not/ doing so.

I did that for Fall Flat and people jumped down my throat. I'm not sure you can push a agnostic Korinna down the throats of the masses ;-)

Yeah, that's one thing I won't change. It's an essential part of the civ, that one is agnostic and another is not.

I disagree. The white hand is essentially worshipping the illian leader. he may not technically be a god yet, but he;s a powerful mage


I honestly never thought of Auric as a mage. His leaderhead totally does not resemble one.

Suggestions for replacement:

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens1556468module8803444photo_1224579084ice_ wizard_fantasy_art.gif (too old)
http://www.lauragivens-artist.com/images/snow-wizard-ice-dragon-s_gibt.gif (meh.. kinda stupid... but he does have a white dragon.
http://diablo3x.com/wp-content/gallery/wizard/ss72-hires.jpg (pretty cool!)

Eh. I like what he has..... I've always seen him as a mage, but that's because I read through the pedia. :lol: Have to be a powerful mage to pull sun magic into the shadowed vale, after all.....

A suggestion to go along with my donation to this whole thing. A ritual, fairly expensive and only available at exceedingly high AC, that pushes Auric up to neutral and gives him a hefty diplo bonus with non-AV civs, to deal with Hell Terrain and lessen the worry of a Gone To Hell victory. As a name, I suggest "Desperate Hope." If you want to force the AI to use the White Hand as a religion of last resort, you could make the Illians completing Desperate Hope be required for anyone other than the Illians and Doviello to adopt the White Hand (with the same alignment effects as the OO or CoE).
As for following the White Hand and relations with Illians: if it is to be adoptable by anyone at any time, than so long as Auric is mortal, other civs should be able to decide that Auric is just a pretender who will be swept aside when Mulcarn returns. They should suffer penalties for outright war (e.g. unhappiness, bad events), though. Once Auric at least completes the Draw, however, forcing all White Hand civs to either become vassals or lose their religion (and join in the war against him) makes sense.
EDIT: Personally, I like Auric's leaderhead the way it is. It's more of a Fighter/Mage than flat out Mage, but that's how I've always seen Auric anyways, especially as the Illians would be wary of a squishy wizard who couldn't at least hold his own in a fight.

Mages don't always have to fit our stereotype of mages. Some, like Auric, can be warriors who just happen to have a natural skill for sorcery as well. Auric has immense natural talent for Ice magic, but most of his fighting is done the old fashioned way, with a bloody sword. He wears battle armor, not the scholarly robes of an archmage who rarely leaves his ivory tower.


Auric isn't really a mage in the usual since, as he was never recruited by a Mage guild or mane into an apprentice of a real mage of archmage. He was a bit of an outcast as a child who happened to be a very thoughtful young boy who taught himself all manner of lore, especially herb lore. He is a magical prodigy like Perpentach or Laroth who probably began using his powers long before he came to understand them, but unlike those masters of the Age of Magic he did not receive extensive training at the hands of a master like Kyloin. He may have gotten his hands on a few books of magic and trained himself in their use (in fact, his leaderhead pic and his unit graphics show him carrying such a book in one hand), but I believe the only "formal training" he received was from Talia Gossam (who was a witch as well as a druidess, but probably not a particularly powerful sorceress as her powers don't seem to have been much use the the Malakim or to herself when attacked by vampires) while imprisoned in the Shadowed Vale. This probably only lasted a couple weeks at most and might have only been a couple hours.




Auric was a teenager when Talia taught him magic, but it was probably years later when he came near to godhood. I'm not really sure how long a time frame the scenarios are supposed to cover, but I'd guess that he would be in his early to mid 20s when he finds the Illians and mid to late 30s when he falls to the Netherblade, even though his spirit appears to be a very old man when Ethne meets him in the Underworld. The sphere of Ice is all about nostalgia and wishing things would return to how they used to be, so the stress of bearing the sphere would prematurely turn him into a curmudgeon. I'm not sure whether this would apply only to the manifestation of his spirit or to his physical form as well, but if the later then there is no problem with the age of the first pic. The second two don't seem right for him all all imho, especially the last one. We know that when he was younger his hair was much shorter than that, was a lighter brown, and could not be made to lie down like that. He had a lot of cowlicks, and his hair was quite frizzy.

I don't see a problem with his current pic.

A suggestion to go along with my donation to this whole thing. A ritual, fairly expensive and only available at exceedingly high AC, that pushes Auric up to neutral and gives him a hefty diplo bonus with non-AV civs, to deal with Hell Terrain and lessen the worry of a Gone To Hell victory. As a name, I suggest "Desperate Hope." If you want to force the AI to use the White Hand as a religion of last resort, you could make the Illians completing Desperate Hope be required for anyone other than the Illians and Doviello to adopt the White Hand (with the same alignment effects as the OO or CoE).
As for following the White Hand and relations with Illians: if it is to be adoptable by anyone at any time, than so long as Auric is mortal, other civs should be able to decide that Auric is just a pretender who will be swept aside when Mulcarn returns. They should suffer penalties for outright war (e.g. unhappiness, bad events), though. Once Auric at least completes the Draw, however, forcing all White Hand civs to either become vassals or lose their religion (and join in the war against him) makes sense.
EDIT: Personally, I like Auric's leaderhead the way it is. It's more of a Fighter/Mage than flat out Mage, but that's how I've always seen Auric anyways, especially as the Illians would be wary of a squishy wizard who couldn't at least hold his own in a fight.

I like that..... Was actually planning on having it make people Evil, but reduce the AC at the same time.

I love the idea and story behind it, hadn't heard it before, but very good by KillerClowns. It also seems to really add to the Illian civ as a whole, given that they don't have a unique victory condition with Ascension, and that there is the "Gone to Hell" victory, this adds an interesting new element. ( I haven't tried Monstrous Creatures yet, but this seems fine with or without).

About agnostic civs - I don't really know the best solution for the Grigori, the first thing I thought was that it's not just Cassiel though. Certainly a civ like the Cualli would end up rather screwed if they couldn't adopt the White Hand and no other religion either.

I honestly never thought of Auric as a mage. His leaderhead totally does not resemble one.

Suggestions for replacement:

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens1556468module8803444photo_1224579084ice_ wizard_fantasy_art.gif (too old)
http://www.lauragivens-artist.com/images/snow-wizard-ice-dragon-s_gibt.gif (meh.. kinda stupid... but he does have a white dragon.
http://diablo3x.com/wp-content/gallery/wizard/ss72-hires.jpg (pretty cool!)

What is it with bare chested ice dwellers? His current pic looks fine. I think the book adds to it.

While for most people being scantily clad out on the ice would not be comfortable, when Auric was possessed by the precept of Ice and on his way towards godhood he felt no ill effects of the cold despite wearing very little clothing. In fact, he seems to have found frozen tundras too warm for his tastes during much of the campaign.

Lol, presumably he found arrows slicing throw his bare rib cage even more uncomfortable.

As an aside, I suppose if you can manage it, running around in Svartalfar levels of clothing in places where most people consider two layers of fur barely sufficient is a great way to remind people that you are, in fact, not to be trifled with. I still favor the current pic, though, although in it Auric seems to be dressed more for autumn than winter.

As an aside, I suppose if you can manage it, running around in Svartalfar levels of clothing in places where most people consider two layers of fur barely sufficient is a great way to remind people that you are, in fact, not to be trifled with. I still favor the current pic, though, although in it Auric seems to be dressed more for autumn than winter.Wait, do you mean that all Svartalfar are indecent elves? Have you seen those skimpy Ljosalfar? Watch your words! :p

A suggestion to go along with my donation to this whole thing. A ritual, fairly expensive and only available at exceedingly high AC, that pushes Auric up to neutral and gives him a hefty diplo bonus with non-AV civs, to deal with Hell Terrain and lessen the worry of a Gone To Hell victory. As a name, I suggest "Desperate Hope." If you want to force the AI to use the White Hand as a religion of last resort, you could make the Illians completing Desperate Hope be required for anyone other than the Illians and Doviello to adopt the White Hand (with the same alignment effects as the OO or CoE).

First off, let me say I love the idea of adding the White Hand; really looking forward to it.

However, I don't like the idea of Desperate Hope at all. Mulcarn may be the least evil god, but he is certainly still evil. I don't think that just because you oppose the forces of Agares, you become neutral. Mulcarn is a viable alternative to Hyborem, but he's still recreating the death and suffering of the Age of Ice.

Which isn't to say that I don't think he should oppose the AV. I personally think it's a more interesting story if you have evil splitting between the Ashen Veil and White Hand. In Desperate Hope, you've got the White Hand joining with neutral and good to oppose evil. If you don't add it, you get AV fighting an alliance of good and neutral nations, with the White Hand being even more united/organized and fighting both of them.*

*If I remember correctly, there is no hell version of snow/tundra. I'm not sure if it can still count towards that 90% hell-spread AV needs, though. If it doesn't, then you have an automatic conflict between AV and snow-spreading White Hand (who'd be making it much harder for AV to get their 90% hell coverage). On the other hand, neutral and good won't like 'em cause they're evil. Also, the whole breaking-the-compact-again thing probably won't sit well with anyone, but that's more lore and less game-mechanics.

I agree about the neutrality. It should be good-neutral vs evil vs evil, like you said. :lol: Right now, ice will still count as hell terrain for the victory..... Planning on leaving that, but setting it up so any ice in White Hand territory is unable to become hell, so basically like good civs now, but relying on one specific terrain rather than just your borders.

First off, let me say I love the idea of adding the White Hand; really looking forward to it.

However, I don't like the idea of Desperate Hope at all. Mulcarn may be the least evil god, but he is certainly still evil. I don't think that just because you oppose the forces of Agares, you become neutral. Mulcarn is a viable alternative to Hyborem, but he's still recreating the death and suffering of the Age of Ice.

Which isn't to say that I don't think he should oppose the AV. I personally think it's a more interesting story if you have evil splitting between the Ashen Veil and White Hand. In Desperate Hope, you've got the White Hand joining with neutral and good to oppose evil. If you don't add it, you get AV fighting an alliance of good and neutral nations, with the White Hand being even more united/organized and fighting both of them.*

*If I remember correctly, there is no hell version of snow/tundra. I'm not sure if it can still count towards that 90% hell-spread AV needs, though. If it doesn't, then you have an automatic conflict between AV and snow-spreading White Hand (who'd be making it much harder for AV to get their 90% hell coverage). On the other hand, neutral and good won't like 'em cause they're evil. Also, the whole breaking-the-compact-again thing probably won't sit well with anyone, but that's more lore and less game-mechanics.

I realize that in terms of lore, the Auric becoming neutral thing isn't perfect. It's more to prevent Hell Terrain spread and let the Illians in the Overcouncil if they so choose (strange bedfellows and all). Hell Terrain does spread in tundra and ice; it isn't visible, and has no effect on the cities harvesting the land, but the terrain becomes "Hellish {terrain type}" and still counts towards a Gone To Hell victory. The only problem making Auric neutral, in-game, would be that he'd get access to druids (who the Illians wouldn't accept). But outright banning the Illians from training druids, and giving them an alignment-free Eidolon UU (with some unholy strength replaced with ice, perhaps), seems like a way to deal with that.
EDIT: Oh, you're planning on making White Hand ice hell-proof? That works perfectly as well, and I suppose Auric never getting into the Overcouncil is reasonable; upon thought, I don't think he'd join if they let him.

Right now, ice will still count as hell terrain for the victory.....

Why?

I think it would be better iuf it didn't. Although it may be hell 2under the hood", it's still visually and functionally ice, so I don't think it should count. Agares should have to go in there andget rid of the ice to spread hell.

Of course, for this to work, there would have to be some natural way of gettinf rid of ice. Maybe hell terrain should conflicvt with it, and slowly replace ice with fields of perdition

By right now, I meant before introducing the White Hand. :lol: I think Hell WILL replace ice, in non-White Hand lands.

Personally, I think it would make sense if Auric started out Neutral but became more and more Evil with each ritual on the way to godhood (probably just becoming Evil for the first ritual when Broader Alignments is off). By the time he could provide a refuge from hell, he would be quite evil and his alignment should be shown as such.


Mulcarn may have been the least Evil of the Evil gods, but I think that Auric had surpassed Mulcarn's level of Evil by the time he murdered Cassiel.



The Illians definitely shouldn't get Druids, as the Priest of Mulcarn's old enemy would not be welcome. What if we made it so that (High?) Priests of Winter were actually alignment-independent Druid UUs?



In my version I added a hell version of Tundra and Snow specifically so that the Infernals' top demons wouldn't get stuck there, but I guess that is not what you'd want for this as protection from the demons is the main reason to take the religion. One problem with your approach is of course that Hyborem tends to spawn on such terrain since the more productive lands are usually already occupied. If you make units like Hyborem unable to enter non-hell terrain and don't make a hell version of the winter terrain where they can go then I think you'll really have to edit the code that picks the tile where Hyborem enters the world.

To clarify what I'm planning: There WILL be a hell terrain version of Snow and Tundra, but any Snow in White Hand controlled land will NEVER convert. So it's like with Good Civs now, but only as far as their snow terrain. Anything else can and will be converted quickly, because you'd be made evil by the religion... Giving a reason to spread snow throughout the empire. Hopefully Jean Elcard's new Temperature code will be included in FF by the time I start working on this... Got some plans for it. :lol:

I like the idea of him starting Neutral, though. Seems to fit more than him becoming Neutral towards the end, when he should be evil.

To clarify what I'm planning: There WILL be a hell terrain version of Snow and Tundra, but any Snow in White Hand controlled land will NEVER convert. So it's like with Good Civs now, but only as far as their snow terrain. Anything else can and will be converted quickly, because you'd be made evil by the religion... Giving a reason to spread snow throughout the empire. Hopefully Jean Elcard's new Temperature code will be included in FF by the time I start working on this... Got some plans for it. :lol:

I like the idea of him starting Neutral, though. Seems to fit more than him becoming Neutral towards the end, when he should be evil.

Peaks should be added to that terrain list, or at least make them convert to underlying ice in White Hand territory.

Yeah, that's one thing I won't change. It's an essential part of the civ, that one is agnostic and another is not.
..How? Why? I don't understand this. Every quote from or regarding Korinna seems to show that she clearly views the Emprah as her personal God-King. Why are people so ANGRIOUS about her being Agnostic? :confused:

For me, this is a matter of gameplay trumping flavour. The Emperor and Korinna play completely different, thanks to her lacking agnostocism.

To clarify what I'm planning: There WILL be a hell terrain version of Snow and Tundra, but any Snow in White Hand controlled land will NEVER convert.

I think a better solution though, rather than having hell terrain versions of those. Make it possible for hell to REMOVE snow entirely, and turn it into some other mundane kind of hell terrain. Like fields of perdition. Actually, I think a hellish version of tundra would be cool, but NOT snow. And have hell spread turn snow tiles into hellish tundra.. Also, call it Frozen Wasteland.

so that you could use snowfall spells and such to make a snow barrier, which would slow the spread of hell. Obviously, snow within WH lands would never be removed.


Oh, also, semi related, but regardless of the above, Priests of Winter (the first level ones) need a way to spread snow. Maybe a "Minor Snowfall" spell, whereby the only effect it has is spreading snow on the tile you're standing on.

I was planning on a 'freeze' type spell. Scorch can now get snow all the way to plains... Need a way to replace what others scorch away. I like you suggestion for the hell terrain versions, as well... :lol:

While you're implementing the frozen wasteland, make sure to add appropriate combat bonuses there for battlemasters, drifa, wilboman, frostlings, and the Winterborn promo.

I think some of the above may have bonuses in snow, but NOT tundra. In whichcase, they should have tundra bonuses added.

Oh, and while we're on this general topic, could you give the Illians +1 :hammers: from tundra, the same as doviello get?

Doviello don't have it any more. :lol: Rather, I added something that can benefit any civ, but works best for them... Yaranga improvement. Basically, a herder's camp. Chance to find deer, fur, bison, doesn't remove forest. Small yields, boosts for the Doviello. I think it's better than a flat boost, AND gives them another reason to run FoL.

But yes, combat bonuses will be added to all appropriate units.

I was planning on a 'freeze' type spell. Scorch can now get snow all the way to plains... Need a way to replace what others scorch away. I like you suggestion for the hell terrain versions, as well... :lol:

One of the future plans for my attempt to improve the magic system involved that exact spell - Freeze. I worked out a terraforming table that you're welcome to use if you want.

Sc=Scorch, F=Freeze, Sp=Spring, V=Vitalize.

Grassland – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/Marsh, V/Plains
Plains – Sc/Desert, F/Tundra, Sp/Marsh, V/Grassland
Marsh – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/none, V/Grassland
Desert – Sc/none, F/Tundra, Sp/Plains, V/Plains
Ice – Sc/Tundra, F/none, Sp/none, V/Plains
Tundra – Sc/Desert, F/Ice, Sp/none, V/Plains
Adding to that your theme of White Hand vs Hell, Freeze should probably have the added ability to directly convert hell terrain to Ice.

One more thing - What music would be best? Start suggesting now or I'll go with whatever I feel like grabbing. :lol:

One of the future plans for my attempt to improve the magic system involved that exact spell - Freeze. I worked out a terraforming table that you're welcome to use if you want.

Sc=Scorch, F=Freeze, Sp=Spring, V=Vitalize.

Grassland – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/Marsh, V/Plains
Plains – Sc/Desert, F/Tundra, Sp/Marsh, V/Grassland
Marsh – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/none, V/Grassland
Desert – Sc/none, F/Tundra, Sp/Plains, V/Plains
Ice – Sc/Tundra, F/none, Sp/none, V/Plains
Tundra – Sc/Desert, F/Ice, Sp/none, V/Plains
Adding to that your theme of White Hand vs Hell, Freeze should probably have the added ability to directly convert hell terrain to Ice.

I like it. Think I'll wait and see how Jean's code works first, but it'll probably end up something like that.... Seems like Scorch may be better balanced than what it currently is.

And I'll probably have two Freeze spells, one normal, one requiring Divine. Normal will be a reverse scorch, divine will be the freeze+sanctify.

First off, that was a great story by KillerClowns.

Anyhow, as to the post just above about freeze+sanctify, any chance that this means the freeze might have a radius other than "one tile"? Freezing your empire square by square, including freezing impassable terrain like mountains, would seem a PITA. Doing it in little 3x3 swathes isn't a lot more fun, granted, but it's better than nothing.

Additionally I guess "freeze" might be a decent candidate for auto-casting, much like Sanctify, which while I don't see it being that beneficial in your own empire, would maybe make life easier for your stacks marching through other territory... creating a road of ice as they go. This'd benefit the Winterborn sorts in your stack, as well as neutralize any terrain advantages that your enemies might've expected to enjoy, such as demons on hell terrain.

Come to think for a moment regarding Winterborn... I wonder if that's a promo that Temples of the Hand ought start granting (whether 100% chance, or less) even for non Illian / Doviello. That is, you've invited the White Hand into your empire, everything's freezing, and so is your next generation of armies etc., at least if they're trained in a city that's fully embraced the White Hand.

I think that when asension kicks in, all hell should break loos.
Ice would spread across the world (like hell does now), and frost monsters should start spawning.

First off, that was a great story by KillerClowns.

Anyhow, as to the post just above about freeze+sanctify, any chance that this means the freeze might have a radius other than "one tile"? Freezing your empire square by square, including freezing impassable terrain like mountains, would seem a PITA. Doing it in little 3x3 swathes isn't a lot more fun, granted, but it's better than nothing.

Additionally I guess "freeze" might be a decent candidate for auto-casting, much like Sanctify, which while I don't see it being that beneficial in your own empire, would maybe make life easier for your stacks marching through other territory... creating a road of ice as they go. This'd benefit the Winterborn sorts in your stack, as well as neutralize any terrain advantages that your enemies might've expected to enjoy, such as demons on hell terrain.

Come to think for a moment regarding Winterborn... I wonder if that's a promo that Temples of the Hand ought start granting (whether 100% chance, or less) even for non Illian / Doviello. That is, you've invited the White Hand into your empire, everything's freezing, and so is your next generation of armies etc., at least if they're trained in a city that's fully embraced the White Hand.

I kind of assumed Ice would spread automatically when you adopt the White Hand, and Freeze would just be if you wanted to speed up the process. Otherwise, you'll get a situation where people build barrier lines of Ice to stop hell spread, and keep perfectly normal terrain hidden behind it.

Dude, Auric murders Cassiel? That rat bastard!

I'd agree that Auric should start neutral and then turn more evil but what would be the point really? After all he will become evil EVERY game. There is no reason not to try to get Auric Ascended, that is kind of the point of playing the civ.

I kind of assumed Ice would spread automatically when you adopt the White Hand, and Freeze would just be if you wanted to speed up the process. Otherwise, you'll get a situation where people build barrier lines of Ice to stop hell spread, and keep perfectly normal terrain hidden behind it.

A kingdom reluctantly adopting the WH, having to sacrifice a huge perimeter to create a wall of ice... well, might be a decent roleplay choice as well. Then some true Illian priests with whom you have open borders walk a straight line through your kingdom leaving a massive trail of ice behind them, autocasting every step or something, ha ha. Again, might make for some interesting things happening which'd make a tale all their own.

...

Afterthought though was if someone wanted to turn their terrain back to something decent, I wonder if WH religion should bar a civ from its adepts using Scorch? Pay lip service to the return of winter, ice, all that other stuff, yet you're constantly scorching ice fields to try and eke out a little more production or something, that may be blasphemy! Just a thought.

I kind of assumed Ice would spread automatically when you adopt the White Hand, and Freeze would just be if you wanted to speed up the process. Otherwise, you'll get a situation where people build barrier lines of Ice to stop hell spread, and keep perfectly normal terrain hidden behind it.

^This. That's why I want Jean's new code. :lol: He set it up so Illian territory will automatically begin to freeze, but can also revert back to the original when not in Illian hands..... I'll do the same thing for the White Hand. There will be no avoiding the ice.... Which makes Winterborn from Temples a decent idea.

^This. That's why I want Jean's new code. :lol: He set it up so Illian territory will automatically begin to freeze, but can also revert back to the original when not in Illian hands..... I'll do the same thing for the White Hand. There will be no avoiding the ice.... Which makes Winterborn from Temples a decent idea.

Whoa, that sounds cool. You are gonna make Priests of Winter buildable right? Maybe buildable after the White Hand ritual is completed?

Whoa, that sounds cool. You are gonna make Priests of Winter buildable right? Maybe buildable after the White Hand ritual is completed?

Probably, but the initial three will be the best. Mini-heros.

Will Sanctify or Scorch remove Ice? I imagine that could get incredibly annoying.

Scorch already does, so yes.

Is it just me or does anyone else feel that using WH as your state religion should bar you from using Sun mana and Sun spells? And posibly fire.

You're not alone in the thought, PPQ :)

Alternately or additionally, never known how to make mana affect diplomacy (as in "You use Death mana" with Evil liking that, Good disliking that), maybe things like a thumbs up for Ice use or disapproval of Sun use might weave its way into this line of thinking.

While not exactly friends, I don't really know of any great enmity between Mulcarn and Lugus. The first major spell Auric himself used was actually sun magic. I'd think that banning or having a diplomatic modifier against Fire and Nature would make much more sense.

Currently, it is not possible to make certain civs or religions have a diplomatic malus towards the use of specific resources. The diplomatic effect is controlled by the <iBadAttitude> tag in CIV4BonusInfos.xml and the <iAttitudeBadBonus> tag in CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml. In vanilla FfH or FF Death and Entropy mana are the only resources with a non 0 <iBadAttitude> tag, -2 for Entropy and -1 for Death I believe. (In my version, Dimensional also has a -1 and Force has a +1.) These value is multiplied by the leader's <iAttitudeBadBonus> value to determine how having a resource changes his opinion of you. The leader's don't have separate opinions about separate resources.

Opera has agreed to try to create a more versatile system for her Leaders Enhanced modmod for Orbis, where individual leaders and religions can have modifiers for different bonuses, but I doubt she has gotten very far

Opera has agreed to try to create a more versatile system for her Leaders Enhanced modmod for Orbis, where individual leaders and religions can have modifiers for different bonuses, but I doubt she has gotten very farYeah, not very far. In fact, not even started to think about how to do it. I'm busy editing leaders for now. I'll look at it after my first release. That's something really useful and certainly pretty easy to do (just have to recycle the bonus tags from other files and check them for attitude, blahblah).

Yeah, not very far. In fact, not even started to think about how to do it. I'm busy editing leaders for now. I'll look at it after my first release. That's something really useful and certainly pretty easy to do (just have to recycle the bonus tags from other files and check them for attitude, blahblah).

heya, please include a modifier for slavery civic adoption please! Otherwise i'd have to roll over and add it myself.

EDIT: oh right, the thread...woo hoo White Hand! Can't wait for these guys to be expanded upon.

heya, please include a modifier for slavery civic adoption please! Otherwise i'd have to roll over and add it myself.

EDIT: oh right, the thread...woo hoo White Hand! Can't wait for these guys to be expanded upon.What modifier, Mutant Guy? :p

The reason for the hatred of sun magic has nothing to do with lore people.
I am proposing it becouse Scorch can destroy ice and would hence be allowing the player to exploit WH without losing land to permafrost.

I don't know how it's achieved in Orbis, but Illians there seem to have some kind of "ice spread" mechanic I hadn't seen anyplace else, where if you mouseover a tile within their cultural borders, there's a message about it being "Unnaturally Cold" with a number sometimes associated with it, as normal terrain steadily becomes ice terrain. Once you kill off the local Illian culture, a "reversal" taking many turns, think at least 10 turns per "step" of warming, takes place. Like an Ice hill + 10 turns = tundra hill, tundra hill + 10 turns = plains hill.

Anyhow, since I hadn't seen this before, thought it might be worth mentioning if it could somehow relate to some kind of White Hand "consequences" mechanics, where the terrain kind of "wants to be cold" no matter how much micromanagement a bunch of scorchers or whatever might be otherwise meant to achieve.

Note I have no idea when or why the Orbis Illian territory started getting cold, maybe there were Temples of the Hand built, I just knew it was annoying to invade them in Winterborn-friendly turf!

It's from FlavourMod. The freezing starts anytime a plot is controlled by Illians. It's controlled in the XML of Civilizations, where there is a tag named "iTempPerTurnChange" or something. The Illians have -1 I think. Maybe the Malakim have +1 in FlavourMod. Not in Orbis, though.

If the White Hand could have the same tag, it would be interesting. Would require a bit of work in the DLL in order to paste it from the Civ file, though.

It's from FlavourMod. The freezing starts anytime a plot is controlled by Illians. It's controlled in the XML of Civilizations, where there is a tag named "iTempPerTurnChange" or something. The Illians have -1 I think. Maybe the Malakim have +1 in FlavourMod. Not in Orbis, though.

If the White Hand could have the same tag, it would be interesting. Would require a bit of work in the DLL in order to paste it from the Civ file, though.

That's exactly what I want to do. :lol: I'm waiting for the new FF patch to start, because I'm hoping it will be merged in. :p

What modifier, Mutant Guy? :p

Nevermind I can use compassionlow to simulate the distaste of seeing a diplomat using slaves as a footstool.

Valkrionn. It seems the world is moving toward several major terrain types.

Illians and their bum boys will have ice.
Infernals and their dupes have hell terrain.
Malakim and D'Tesh will have desert (well D'tesh will eventually end up with burning sands out the wazoo).
Lizards have their jungle.

Gonna make for some funky looking maps yo. A little off topic but do you think that D'tesh's map being filled with burning sands will be a little too much for some peoples's gfx cards?

Are you planning on having a council for white hand? If so will the dynamics change once Auric Ascends?

Basically yes. :lol:

About the D'teshi Burning Sands.... Originally they used a unique terrain type, and I may end up bringing that back just to avoid the sand.

I'm not sure yet about the council. If I put one in, yes, once Auric Ascends he'll be in charge of the council.

Prehaps that would be the best option for the WH.
Making a council of civs with Auric as the permanent chairman and able to veto any desision.

Hey so Magister had a good point about simply allowing basic frostlings to upgrade into archers or the wolf riders. Maybe age or level based?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314172

Everyone forgot it, but it seems that someone else had the same idea.

Actually that was the inspiration. ;)

I've been suggesting this idea for a while, but very few people were really interested so I abandoned it. I wanted to put back some AOI things (Fiacra the North Wind, Blizzards everywhere, Mokka and the like). I also wanted Frostlings to be available for everyone - so the race is worth creating.

After reading all the posts here I came up with this idea.

Winterpact
Ritual, requires no state religion, AC 60 (or 70 or 80 or whichever number you see fit) and some late tech.
Spreads the White Hand to your capital.
Makes it impossible to have a state religion other than the White Hand so it’s either the White Hand or nothing (alternatively the White Hand could be a guild for practical purposes only and Winterpact would give you Agnostic trait).
Your land slowly freezes (considerably faster after Ascension) probably some bonus like + 1 :food: from snow, + 1 :hammers: from tundra.
Makes you a permanent ally of all other members of the Pact, or makes you a vassal of the founder of the White Hand (again as you see fit).

The White Hand is founded by Illians from the start or upon completing the White Hand (whichever you see fit) or by the first civilization to complete the Winterpact. Any unit created in city with the White Hand has a chance to start with Winterborn. Its would have its own priests and high priest the three given by the White Hand ritual being their unique better version.

Alternative for permanent alliance and vassalisation would be to make it sign defensive pact with all other members of the Pact and make it impossible to conduct diplomacy with civs that are not in the Pact (that would have no effect on Auric as he would become a member of the Pact by completing the White Hand that would not include the no-diplomacy effect or be its member from the start). Members of the Pact would have their own council whose head would be the founder of the White Hand. A more complex version of this council would be to give it its own menu and make it so that any member may propose a resolution at any time with the head of the council having the right to veto any resolution. To leave the Pact you have to declare war on any of its members. It would reverse all the effect of the ritual and make it impossible to return to the Pact.

Whatever you do to the priests of winter, keep the three uber priests for the Illians the way they are. Any further buildable priests would make good sense to be weaker tho.

They will be. The named ones will basically be minor heroes.

Hey also don't forget it would be nice to be able to upgrade your frostlings. Though as recon units I dig the fact they gain training xp from hunting lodges. In my last game they were my recon force. Had about 50

Valkrionn, what ideas from my thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314172) are you going to pick?

Here's an edited quote of your first post... Bold is yes, italic is maybe, and marked out lines are a no at the moment. ;) Put a comment after most of them, indented.

It would be cool to add the White Hand as a new religion. Iirc, the priests of Mulcarn were everywhere (and not only in the Illians cities), so we can assume the White Hand can be spread everywhere, and some civs can be converted to the Illians' cause. I got some ideas :

- It will be the only religion available to the Illians.

- The White Hand religion spanws Ice terrain everywhere in the empire of the civ, and the Ice provides +1 :food:.

Waiting on Jean Elcard's terrain conversion system for this, it's the whole reason I haven't started yet. It's already doing exactly that for the Illians, shouldn't be too difficult to apply to the religion. Not sure how I'll handle the food, might have to make a new Ice terrain.

- When an ennemy unit enters the land, there is a % chance to spawn a Blizzard which will damage him, just like the Treants mechanic.

Too similar to an existing mechanic.

- Temples of the Hand and Priests of Winter can be built by every WH civ, and the temples protect the civ from hellish terrain.

- When the Illians complete the Draw, the WH civs won't declare war to the Illians (perhaps a diplo penalty)

- The religion itself can be founded by the ritual (so Illians can't rush and start converting everyone to avoid troubles with the Draw), only Illians can found it. It would be illogical to have this religion without Illians.

Not sure on this one yet. I know I'm going to have it be founded by the White Hand ritual, but I'm not sure if I'll allow it without the Illians or not.

- You can build the hero Mokka. If he already exists, it will convert him to your cause. If he died, it will ressurect him. Fiacra the North Wind can be another hero.

Going to make a Frostling faction that comes in to play after the Illians finish their ritual to summon them(forgot the name). Mokka is the hero, and the faction will be at peace with White Hand civs. Won't automatically be at peace with the Illians, they need to establish the religion for the Frostlings to recognize them.

- Spreading this religion will lower the AC or freeze it (it means if there is any change, it will be reduced). Demons don't like to enter a cold world...

- The religion makes anyone Evil. So if you want to change your alignment without triggering the Apocalypse (which is annoying...lol), it's an adequate alternative.

- It will grant a diplo bonus with the Illians. It will grant a diplo penalty with everyone else, but the Doviello.

- Ice mana = Temples of the Hand x% faster, and Blizzards are +x% likely to happen.

- The religion wonder would be a Great Frostling Husbandry. 1 unit out of 2 will start with the Frostling promotion. And there are the standard bonus: Ice mana, +1 :gold: for every city with the religion, etc...

Seems like too much of a buff for a religion guaranteed to be founded by a civ... The wonder should be weak, providing only commerce and mana, possibly some small bonus. Like the Steamworks for the Ordo Machinarum.

- If you have the Barbarian Trait, you will be able to hire a frostling in empty lairs, just like the Clan of Embers in goblin forts.

Frostlings will be their own civ, so that won't work.

- If Auric Ascended is built, the civs with the religion start a Golden Age.

- Entering Letum Frigus will add +1 :) in all of your cities, and a diplo bonus with the Illians - and maybe a smaller one with the Doviello.

Not sure, but I think that's too powerful.

- The civs with WH won't get the Godslayer when AA is built.

- The religion won't bring additional culture, but science instead, just like AV.

Hammers, not culture or science. Just like the inscription event.

And maybe a new civic: Rationality or Cold Blood or whatever.

Here is a list of the possible effects:
- +10% Millitary unit Production with WH cities
- +1 :hammers: in Ice
- 20% chance to convert defeated units (into frostlings)
- Additionnal Diplo Penalty with everyone non-WH.
- +2 :) in all cities.
- -25% :gp: birth rate
- -25% :culture:
- -25% :mad: Weariness. (That's because people with cold blood are never angry...)

Possible. Could make a council civic for them including some of those bonuses.

Going to make a Frostling faction that comes in to play after the Illians finish their ritual to summon them(forgot the name). Mokka is the hero, and the faction will be at peace with White Hand civs. Won't automatically be at peace with the Illians, they need to establish the religion for the Frostlings to recognize them.

Do you mean Illians will be able to switch with this civ when they found the religion? And are you going to resurrect some AOI heroes such as Fiacra the North Wind or Taranis?

And I was thinking about a new type of victory, called "Return of Age of Ice" or "Gone to Ice" or "Frozen" : if more than x% of the map is covered with ice, then the Illians and the most important WH civ win.

Do you mean Illians will be able to switch with this civ when they found the religion? And are you going to resurrect some AOI heroes such as Fiacra the North Wind or Taranis?

And I was thinking about a new type of victory, called "Return of Age of Ice" or "Gone to Ice" or "Frozen" : if more than x% of the map is covered with ice, then the Illians and the most important WH civ win.

Or Mercurian style?

I'd say have the White Hand mostly leave the AC alone or (in the case of the Draw) raise it; you're looking after yourself, first and foremost, and screw the rest of the world. AC lowering explicitly requires acts of goodness, or actively hunting Hell. But so long as Auric Ascended is on the board, the AC should be unable to rise. He is the God of Stasis, after all.

there are alot of opinions on here ... although one thing that stands out are the opinions on Vassalization.

When Auric is Ascended, everyone following the white hand should become his vassal. Until then, no vassalization. Heck, they can fued for all I care. But when Auric takes up the Ice sphere, automatic Vassalize.



The AC should be unallowed to raise or lower as long as Auric Ascended is alive.

Sorry for resurrecting this tread. I was going to write it two weeks ago. I see that decision has already been made on how to include the White Hand but if someone was interested in my idea here is the rest of it.

Every member of the Pact would be able to propose a resolution (no more often than once every ten turns). This would require a button, probably in the foreign advisor menu, “Call the Council”. A menu would pop up with resolutions available.

Declare war on X
Challenge the Head of the Council
Force the White Hand
Possible other resolutions

All leaders would have Defensive Pacts with each other and would be unable to declare war on anyone but other members (which would result in leaving the Pact) they would only be able to declare war on third parties through a resolution.
The council would be able to force all members to adopt the White Hand if some of its members have no state religion.
The Head of the Pact would initially be the founder of the White Hand. He or she could veto any resolution. To replace the Head of the Pact one can challenge him/her. For those looking for lore justification you can think that while the Head was chosen by the aspect of the ice (that is Auric if he is in the game and the first to complete the Pact if he is not present) defeating him/her could cause the aspect to choose someone else. Challenge would cancel Defensive Pacts between members, make the challenger declare war on the Head of the Council and resign Defensive Pacts between every member but the two warring ones (it is supposed to create an effect of internal brawl within the Pact). During the challenge no resolutions can be proposed. It is won by capturing the capital of opposing party which gives winner an option to leave the loser free or make him/her vassal of the new Head of the Council. Additional flavor could be to make it so that the leader of the losing party is executed – loses his traits and ability to Ascend (for Auric).

Well one of the things I love about FFH in general and FF+ in particular is the fact that every civ has it's own different playstyle. The Malakim are the desert people, the jotnar are the few but powerful giants, and the illians are the ice dudes who have their leader become a god.

To make that available to anyone who can conquer the Illian capital would dillute the entire flavor of the illians. What's the point in playing Auric if you can play any other civ and still play aurics role?

The Ljos are the nature people, that doesn't prevent other civs from following the same path as them and researching FoL.

The Ljos are the nature people, that doesn't prevent other civs from following the same path as them and researching FoL.

True, but other races can't improve the terrain around a city without also destroying those precious trees. There is still a massive benefit for being elves with FoL.

I have no problem with the white hand as a religion, in fact I'm quite excited to try it. The problem starts when the white hand religion makes any other civ interchangable with the Illians.

Other races won't get any food bonuses from their newly Iced lands. They'll get access to a few improvements, but that's it... The main benefit will be preventing the spread of Hell. Even good civs will become susceptible to it at AC 90 when I'm done, so the only fool-proof method of preventing it is to either stop the counter from raising, or converting to the White Hand.

Do they have access to priests ef Winter or temples of the Hand?

They'd have nerfed versions of them, yes. Like how civs following the Ordo Machinarum have access to the Adeptus, but the Mechanos have better ones.

Iunno. That seems kinda difficult to pull off to me. Then again, I don't know jack about programming. Good luck, brag :goodjob:

Was this ever implemented?

Not yet. On the table until I find some art... Can probably grab the Illian art, but I have to figure out the file first. :lol: Adding era's is a pain.

I think this sounds like a great idea. ^^ I loved playing the Illians before and kind of wished that they would have had their own religion.

Off topic a little, what exactly do Penguins do when they appear on your land? Is it just a flavor event?

Also, it'd be nice to get an ivory resource in Polar regions from Walruses. (or is it Walri?) That or Muskox.

Anyway, Looking forward to turning the world into one giant ice cube. :D

You gain +1:) in the nearest city for Penguins :)

You gain +1 :) in the nearest city for Penguins :)

Thanks for that. Very cool. ^^

Ivory is already set to spawn in ice/tundra, due to wild Mammoth. ;)

Ivory is already set to spawn in ice/tundra, due to wild Mammoth. ;)

Oh really? That's good then. I have just never seen that resource yet. :(
Maybe I am unlucky like with Gorillas. :P

How about a resource for the sea ice then? Walruses (Walri?) could be on there.

One other thing that has always bothered me. Silk is found in Northern areas frequently. If I had the skills, I wouldn't let it occur there but I'd have some new resource for the Tundra like Muskox. Their fur is quite valuable (Qiviut - ᕿᕕᐅᖅ) http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiviut

Maybe that is already covered under furs already but it would be cool to have Muskox riders. Slow as heck but very tough. :D

Yes, resurrecting an old thread, but I was reading over an older thread, saw a good idea, and didn't want to forget it. :lol:

Basic premise: White Hand is founded upon completion of the White Hand ritual. Makes it available to both the Illians and the Frozen.

The Frozen are completely blocked from any religion but the White Hand. They are demons from that Vault, and are inherently part of the religion. Nothing to change it.

The Illians, on the other hand, have no overriding reason to be forced into that religion, other than Auric. Hence the amazing idea....

[quote]Auric as a unit/trait granter and being forced to follow White Hand until he dies also seems to work. In that way, losing Auric (or rejecting him and deleting the unit) allows for the Illians to explore other options. Lot of work in that to make sure that the Illians still "work" with those changes. [Quote]

Basically, Auric forces the Illians to follow the White Hand. If he's killed, or you kill him, you are able to adopt other religions... But your traits, and access to Auric Ascended, is lost.

To go with this, we can add a new Illian leader (Probably Raitlor from LENA, I like the art) that has access to all religions, but is blocked from the higher level Illian rituals... Basically, everything past the White Hand. If she founds the Hand, and adopts it, she will be able to produce certain rituals, I think everything up to Draw/Ascension (She can't ascend, but you CAN get Drifa or freeze everything). However, if you produce these rituals you are from that point on locked into the White Hand religion.

Could even possibly allow for a leader switch to Raitlor if Auric dies... I think that would make people too willing to loose him though.
So... Thoughts? Opinions? I'm quite fond of the idea. :lol:


Now that I have this idea... It's very possible this religion will be in game soon. :goodjob:

I just thought I'd mention that when Auric was a kid the Illians of his home village of Brigdarrow were worshipers of Danalin. I think This was before the emergence of the Overlords, but I suspect that they quickly gained popularity among followers of Danalin making OO the Ilians second most favored religion. The conservative nature of RoK would probably make it the best 3rd choice.



The 3 Illian minor leaders who are priests of winter should probably also only be able to follow the White Hand.

anyone should be able to adopt the white hand imho... I wanna play white hand doviello :D

I just thought I'd mention that when Auric was a kid the Illians of his home village of Brigdarrow were worshipers of Danalin. I think This was before the emergence of the Overlords, but I suspect that they quickly gained popularity among followers of Danalin making OO the Ilians second most favored religion. The conservative nature of RoK would probably make it the best 3rd choice.



The 3 Illian minor leaders who are priests of winter should probably also only be able to follow the White Hand.

Honestly, I've dropped those three leaders as uninteresting. Can't have them complete Ascension. Raitlor would be different, as she'd be allowed religions... Makes it interesting IMO.

Gekko;8637554']anyone should be able to adopt the white hand imho... I wanna play white hand doviello :D

They can, they just can't FOUND it. ;)

what if the Illians or Frozen aren't in the game? or if they are but, say, get wiped out before they can found it? :p

At the moment, no White Hand for you. :lol:

One thing I'm thinking of doing.... Because of the way the religions work, if it does NOT have a tech set to found it it will pop up in the first few turns of a game. So how about giving it the standard religion treatment, but allowing the Frozen/Illians to found it early?

Would mean it would need at LEAST the requirements for the White Hand ritual, along with a higher tech or two.

Is there any lore on Raitlor, or just a pic?

I'm not sure I like the idea of a female Illian leader. The Illians are a very traditional society with strict gender roles. They do permit and even encourage girls to train as archers, but would not like women leaving the city walls to command forces abroad.

If I were to add a female Illian leader I'd likely choose Auric's childhood friend Kirien. Ashes of Brigdarrow contains plenty of backstory for her (admittedly all from when she was 14 years old), but I'm not supposed to share the draft Kael sent me so I probably shouldn't share it. (She may have decided to live among the elves rather than go find some other Illian village anyway.)


I'm not sure why, but I feel it is important to mention that the Illians (and presumably also the White Hand religion) demand strict monogamy. They are the one civilization that consider marriage truly permanent, living far longer than the individual. Widows and widowers are never permitted to remarry in any circumstances. (I wouldn't be surprised if they took this further and demanded that one only ever mates with his or her first love, as even without the formal vows moving on with one's life is seen as a betrayal of the precept of stasis. That might help explain why the Illians have never had a high birth rate and were the least populous of the Illian factions.)



I tend to think that normally only the Illians should found the White Hand, but that Disciples of the Hand should be added to the disciples that can be rescued from dungeons and so those who rescue one can found the religion even without the Illians.

Is there any lore on Raitlor, or just a pic?

I'm not sure I like the idea of a female Illian leader. The Illians are a very traditional society with strict gender roles. They do permit and even encourage girls to train as archers, but would not like women leaving the city walls to command forces abroad.

If I were to add a female Illian leader I'd likely choose Auric's childhood friend Kirien. Ashes of Brigdarrow contains plenty of backstory for her (admittedly all from when she was 14 years old), but I'm not supposed to share the draft Kael sent me so I probably shouldn't share it. (She may have decided to live among the elves rather than go find some other Illian village anyway.)


I'm not sure why, but I feel it is important to mention that the Illians (and presumably also the White Hand religion) demand strict monogamy. They are the one civilization that consider marriage truly permanent, living far longer than the individual. Widows and widowers are never permitted to remarry in any circumstances. (I wouldn't be surprised if they took this further and demanded that one only ever mates with his or her first love, as even without the formal vows moving on with one's life is seen as a betrayal of the precept of stasis. That might help explain why the Illians have never had a high birth rate and were the least populous of the Illian factions.)



I tend to think that normally only the Illians should found the White Hand, but that Disciples of the Hand should be added to the disciples that can be rescued from dungeons and so those who rescue one can found the religion even without the Illians.

Here's all the 'fluff' from the LENA thread...

After Auric's death, she convinced her people he had in fact ascended to true godhood and was watching upon them. She then succeeded to make peace with the Lanun Alliance through a vassalage. However, due to the neverending winter, the Alliance soon freed the little Illian state. She's the highest religious figure of the state. She lost many of her sisters who were willing to took Garduk but failed and died. She has two sisters left (they were 7).



As for making it a dungeon religion... I can just imagine the complaints already. Either it should be unfoundable by anyone but the Illian/Frozen, or it should be foundable by anyone.

What if it could be founded by the first to discover Letum Frigus?

Honestly, I think that would be a bad idea. Mostly because while it would be interesting, it could also lead to civs founding it immediately.

Honestly, I think that would be a bad idea. Mostly because while it would be interesting, it could also lead to civs founding it immediately.


Could always set a level requirement to enter or give it a horrendous leashed guardian.

I'd rather set it up as a normal religion, honestly. It'll have a useful mechanic, so I'd prefer it available in all games.

White Hand is founded upon completion of the White Hand ritual. Makes it available to both the Illians and the Frozen.

The Frozen are completely blocked from any religion but the White Hand. They are demons from that Vault, and are inherently part of the religion. Nothing to change it.

The Illians, on the other hand, have no overriding reason to be forced into that religion, other than Auric. Hence the amazing idea....

Auric as a unit/trait granter and being forced to follow White Hand until he dies also seems to work. In that way, losing Auric (or rejecting him and deleting the unit) allows for the Illians to explore other options. Lot of work in that to make sure that the Illians still "work" with those changes.

Basically, Auric forces the Illians to follow the White Hand. If he's killed, or you kill him, you are able to adopt other religions... But your traits, and access to Auric Ascended, is lost.

To go with this, we can add a new Illian leader (Probably Raitlor from LENA, I like the art) that has access to all religions, but is blocked from the higher level Illian rituals... Basically, everything past the White Hand. If she founds the Hand, and adopts it, she will be able to produce certain rituals, I think everything up to Draw/Ascension (She can't ascend, but you CAN get Drifa or freeze everything). However, if you produce these rituals you are from that point on locked into the White Hand religion.

Could even possibly allow for a leader switch to Raitlor if Auric dies... I think that would make people too willing to loose him though.

So... Thoughts? Opinions? I'm quite fond of the idea. :lol:


Now that I have this idea... It's very possible this religion will be in game soon. :goodjob:

This all sounds great. I look forward to it. With these changes, I think the Illians will become my favourite civ, dethroning the Archos.

A few questions, though:

Does this mean that the Illians will start with... a Great Commander, or whatever, that's Auric Ulvin?
If they do, what happens if that unit is the first to visit Letum Frigus?
Does he gain Combat 1?
Do the rituals make him stronger and stronger until he finally ascends?
How do these changes affect Ascended Auric?
Will Auric be immune to certain promotions, like Mutate, instant death stuff, Rage (or whatever it's called), as well as the effects of the Apocalypse (living unit death)?

This all sounds great. I look forward to it. With these changes, I think the Illians will become my favourite civ, dethroning the Archos.

A few questions, though:

Does this mean that the Illians will start with... a Great Commander, or whatever, that's Auric Ulvin?
If they do, what happens if that unit is the first to visit Letum Frigus?
Does he gain Combat 1?
Do the rituals make him stronger and stronger until he finally ascends?
How do these changes affect Ascended Auric?
Will Auric be immune to certain promotions, like Mutate, instant death stuff, Rage (or whatever it's called), as well as the effects of the Apocalypse (living unit death)?


I think I'm going to go with Magister's approach here. There's already an Auric unit. I can let them start with him, even make him a commander (fits, I think). On Ascension, he becomes Auric Ascended... Passing on any promotions he has. So while AA still can't get promotions, he can maintain those that he had before ascension.

I don't really think he'd be immune to anything. Would probably only spawn him for the Human player, or maybe if AI have him stay in the city.. Don't want the AI losing him.

Okay, the White Hand is now fully implemented (Barring art and music, get to that later). Going to describe the changes, and any changes to the Illians, in this post. This should be everything... If I miss something, I apologize. :lol:



Founding

The religion may be founded by anyone who researches the 'White Hand' technology, available after Priesthood. This tech works just like other religious techs, unlocking the units/temple.
The Illians/Frozen may found the religion with the White Hand ritual, which is available with Philosophy. This gives them a full two tech head start, but they are still not guaranteed to found it.


Units

Military

Frostling Archer - Stronger than the normal

3:strength:, 4 Defense
1 :move:
1 Range
4 Air Attack
1 First Strike
25% Hill, City Defense
20% Defensive Strike Chance
10% Defensive Strike Damage


Frost Giant - Requires Rage.

7:strength: (+3 Cold), 5 Defense (+3 Cold)
1 :move:
May not enter Desert
+20% attack/defense in Snow, +10% in Tundra
15% Bombard rate
Starts with Sentry, Immune to Cold, Vulnerable to Fire.


Fiacra - Hero

4:strength: (+2 Cold), 5 Defense (+2 Cold)
3 :move:
No Defensive Bonuses
Starts with Channeling 1, Channeling 2, Flying, Ice 1, Blizzard Caller (Allows calling of blizzards, as with Priests of Winter)


Drifa - Hero

Stir from Slumber now only requires Divine Essence, White Hand state religion, and for you to have killed a civ.




Religious Units

Disciple of Winter - Standard disciple, starts with Winterborn and Blizzard Caller.
Priest of Winter - Slightly nerfed, lose 1:strength:. 3 named variants from the ritual gain an extra strength point on creation.
Highpriest of Winter - Same as current




Buildings

Temple of the Hand - All python effects removed.
Citadel of the Hand (Horrible name, feel free to suggest a better one) - Shrine. Provides Ice Mana, +10% :hammers:, +10% :commerce:. Does NOT grant yields for every city with the religion, I decided this was too powerful given which yield the religion grants.


Religious Yields/Effects

Grants +1 :hammers: to the city, +2 :hammers: extra if Holy City.
Using Jean Elcard's ClimateSystem, the White Hand will slowly freeze your empire. Religious Climate overwrites Civ Climate, so even Malakim will have to deal with Ice while following this religion.

Climate becomes Glacial - New terrain type Glacier. Same appearance as Ice, gains +1 :food:. All civ yields on Ice applied to Glacier (+2 Illian, +1 Doviello/Jotnar).
All river glacial tiles gain Crystal Plains - +1:food:, +1:commerce:


Any White Hand civ may complete the Deepening ritual.


Illian/Frozen Changes

Auric and Taranis gain the Ice Touched trait - Grants no anarchy, contains a help key stating the leader may ONLY adopt the White Hand.
If either leader completes Ascension, ALL White Hand civs become vassals. This can lead to a human player being vassalized by an AI - This does NOT cause issues, and the AI seems to handle it quite well (Immediately demanded my Enchantment Mana :lol:). This is a peaceful vassalization, even if you were at war, so it may be revoked after several turns.
Auric (Leader) now gains Auric (Unit) on game start, similar to Korrina.

4:strength:
1 :move:
2 Command Limit
Death will remove all traits from the player.
Can upgrade with Priesthood to Auric Winter (XML name only, name remains Auric... Feel free to suggest a title)

Essentially a Priest of Winter with a command limit.
Gains 1 Cold Damage
Gains the White Hand religion
Gains 2 additional Command Limit, 1 additional Command Range (Total of 3)
Starts with Divine, Channeling 1, Channeling 2, Ice 1, Winterborn, Medic 1, Immune to Cold, Blizzard Caller




New Illian leader from LENA, Raitlor. She represents Auric's successor after the Scenarios, and is able to adopt any religion. She is unable to complete the Draw or Ascension.

Has the Trader trait - +50% :food:, +50% :hammers: from trade. Starts with 50 :gold:
Emergent

Sounds really great! And there's Raitlor <3

But you failed your ":movement:" icons and, for that, you shall be punished with 124 years of emprisonment in my basement with the dreaded Godwynn :D

Hmm... If not for Godwynn that would be interesting, but I refuse to share a basement with him. :lol:

Valkrionn doesn't really mean that. He is just my wing-man. Taking one for the team so Godwynn can live the dream.

Do the Illians need to start with Auric? Let alone one who's effectively a turn-0 axeman with ice spells?

Korinna the Protector, IIRC, starts with only 2 strength, and is bound until Knowledge of the Ether. Auric, on the other hand, has a higher strength than just about any other starting unit bar Lucain, AND seems to start with channeling 1 AND 2, plus some powerful promotions that normally don't come until much later in the game, such as Medic.

Am I misunderstanding that? That's what the Illians would start with on turn 0?

Do the Illians need to start with Auric? Let alone one who's effectively a turn-0 axeman with ice spells?

Korinna the Protector, IIRC, starts with only 2 strength, and is bound until Knowledge of the Ether. Auric, on the other hand, has a higher strength than just about any other starting unit bar Lucain, AND seems to start with channeling 1 AND 2, plus some powerful promotions that normally don't come until much later in the game, such as Medic.

Am I misunderstanding that? That's what the Illians would start with on turn 0?

The Illians lost some exclusive rituals (Deepening and Stir), and Auric's death removes ALL of their traits.

My original intention (And will still be in eventually, just didn't get it working in time for the patch and would prefer not to have any more delays) is for Auric to be locked into the White Hand so long as his unit is alive. If Auric is killed, they could use a different religion... Similarly, if Raitlor completes any ritual past White Hand (Deepening or Stir), she becomes locked into the religion. To do this, I need a 'canDoReligion' callback, but it wasn't working when I tried to add it.



All of that aside, I can easily weaken Auric. I just like the mechanic for them. Also, ALL of the promotions/spells you are talking about require an upgrade at Priesthood; Tehy are NOT available at turn 1. Which is why there's an indent in the unit description; Anything after that is the upgrade, not the original Auric.

How about weakening the starting Auric to be more defensive? Like 2/5 or 3/4, so the Illians don't start with an axemen strength unit, especially since he will be gaining XP from his minions. It would put him more inline with a commander who is 0/5. Also, will he have Hero promotion?

How about weakening the starting Auric to be more defensive? Like 2/5 or 3/4, so the Illians don't start with an axemen strength unit, especially since he will be gaining XP from his minions. It would put him more inline with a commander who is 0/5. Also, will he have Hero promotion?

I can do that, yes. Makes the upgrade better as well... Not just gaining 1:strength: anymore.

He will NOT have the Hero promotion. Any upgrades he gets, he earns. And yes, it IS worth the effort; He becomes Auric Ascended after the ritual is completed. AA is still unable to gain promotions, but he CAN keep those he gets as Auric.... ;)

All of that aside, I can easily weaken Auric. I just like the mechanic for them. Also, ALL of the promotions/spells you are talking about require an upgrade at Priesthood; Tehy are NOT available at turn 1. Which is why there's an indent in the unit description; Anything after that is the upgrade, not the original Auric.Alright. I wasn't sure where the upgrade came in, and what it would consist of, since those looked like base stats.

I can do that, yes. Makes the upgrade better as well... Not just gaining 1:strength: anymore.

He will NOT have the Hero promotion. Any upgrades he gets, he earns. And yes, it IS worth the effort; He becomes Auric Ascended after the ritual is completed. AA is still unable to gain promotions, but he CAN keep those he gets as Auric.... ;)This I can perfectly get behind. Maybe even a 2/4, or 2/3: most of his XP, I would think, should come from his command units/natural XP growth, not his own abilities, and any real combat effectiveness deserves to come with the upgrade.


Will he be a Disciple unit-class unit? With all the pluses/minuses involved?

Alright. I wasn't sure where the upgrade came in, and what it would consist of, since those looked like base stats.

This I can perfectly get behind. Maybe even a 2/4, or 2/3: most of his XP, I would think, should come from his command units/natural XP growth, not his own abilities, and any real combat effectiveness deserves to come with the upgrade.


Will he be a Disciple unit-class unit? With all the pluses/minuses involved?

I think that's what I'm going to do, yes. Setting him up as a weak attacker/strong defender early on seems like a good thing to me. :goodjob:

I originally intended for the upgrade to be a Disciple unit (Starts as melee), but decided to focus on his Commander abilities... He is Commander unitclass, allowing him to gain promotions which benefit his followers (Or himself).

Citadel of the Hand (Horrible name, feel free to suggest a better one) - Shrine. Provides Ice Mana, +10% :hammers:, +10% :commerce:. Does NOT grant yields for every city with the religion, I decided this was too powerful given which yield the religion grants.


I have some name suggestions.

The Frozen Throne
The Ice Palace
The Heart of Winter

ooh, include Utgard as a Unique improvement! It was the fort occupied by Drifa during the age of ice.

Other AoI wonders: Codex Edda, Hermetic Sanctuary, The Great Stag Hide, Trophy Halls.

For the current Citadel of the Hand: call it Frostcrag.

I've got some quick model if you don't have any yet:
http://i46.tinypic.com/2zs1wkx.png
(where you see white cubes there're blue beams of light like from the top of the Frozen palace).

Give it +1% :hammers: +1% :commerce: for each city with the white hand.

For the current Citadel of the Hand: call it Frostcrag.

I've got some quick model if you don't have any yet:
http://i46.tinypic.com/2zs1wkx.png
(where you see white cubes there're blue beams of light like from the top of the Frozen palace).

Give it +1% :hammers: +1% :commerce: for each city with the white hand.

Awesome, we can use that. Currently it's the same as the Temple of the Hand. The name Frostcrag works as well.

For the yields... That's not possible atm. And to add it requires messing with all the other building yield functions (Trust me, I have tried. :lol:), which I REALLY don't want to mess with. Could have some side effects I'm not aware of.