Minor Leaders [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Valkrionn

May 30, 2009, 05:28 AM

Emergent Leaders

Leaders for a new era, these leaders will have powerful traits designed to reflect the nature of their civilization, or some aspect of it. They will be the weakest leaders, and yet the most powerful if used properly.

There are a few exceptions, but as a rule, they should have one trait, plus Emergent. The trait should be unique, or at least uncommon, and should emphasize certain playstyles over others. Again, the Khazad are a prime example... In one leader, you see a conquest-oriented leader, designed for a gold-starved civilization, and in the other you have a powerful builder.

Amurites -

Tya Kiri - Reckless/Emergent - Neutral

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8235987&postcount=13

Lorelei - Hydromancer/Emergent - Neutral

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8239515&postcount=17
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/lorelei.png

Archos -

Austrin -

Balseraphs -

Nojah - Arcane/Illusionist/Emergent - Neutral

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/nojah.png

Bannor -

Tethira - Instructor/Emergent - Good

Calabim -

Mahon the Butcher - Tyrant/Emergent - Evil
Elijah Arnauld - Dominant/Emergent - Evil

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/elijah.png

Chislev -

Clan of Embers -

Hafgan the Purger - Scorched Earth/Barbarian/Emergent - Evil

Cualli -

Doviello -

Baron Duin Halfmorn - Agnostic/Lycanthropic/Emergent - Evil

Dural -

Elohim -

Grigori -

Prime Minister Esirce - Philosophical/Tolerant/Emergent - Neutral

When I came into the chamber, Prime Minister Esirce was sitting at the head of the table, surrounded by his various sycophants and false friends. "Let me guess," he said when he saw me. "The Calabim again?" I nodded. He said, "they are a necessary evil. Tell me what they did this time." "Well, some of them are beginning to demand a return to the Old Ways..." "yes, yes, yes, fine, whatever. Does that mean following their religion?" It didn't, of course. The only time Lord Esirce could be expected to grow a spine was if religion was involved. "No," I said, "just their... hunting celebration." "We need the Calabim," Esirce said, putting on his Brilliant Overlord tone.

"Yes, of course we do," Minister Alyeris said, smiling her false smile. Anybody with an ounce of sense knew that woman was loyal to either Faeryl Viconia or none but herself. It didn't matter, her effect on the empire was the same. She was presently bedding someone in the Calabim empire, I reckoned. Esirce was the only person on Erebus unaware of Alyeris' many, many questionable lovers. The debacle with the centaur was, of course, merely the most often joked about and satirized, but the list of confirmed partners ran on impressively, and was likely a fraction of the total. "You see," Alyeris continued, "the Calabim have many... unique skills that could serve our needs... wonderfully. As a matter of fact, I was speaking with Lady Tepes..." I grinned at my fellow clerk, Anna. "See," I said to her, "I told you, she likes women to." She silently handed over the coins we'd wagered as Alyeris continued gushing over the wonderful things the Calabim, especially the beautiful Lady Tepes, had to offer. Several other ministers went red, snickered, or showed sudden interest as they figured out the subtext. Esirce was completely blind to it all.

Ragas the Lone interrupted Alyeris' ramblings, to the relief of some and annoyance of others. Doviello were assumed to be big, brutish, and stupid. Ragas was definitely big, but while his methods were brutal, they were also surprisingly creative, and Ragas was far from stupid. He had an incredible animal cunning, and adapted just enough to Grigori culture to be tolerated, while still being seen as a fool. "My pack is interested in these gifts," he said. "Will the People of the Bat offer it to us, if we will provide them with much Prey?" Alyreis considered, but before she could respond, Ragas continued. "To speak of Prey, my assistant read me Words from Front." Another farce; Ragas' broken Grigori and illiteracy were both lies. He'd made mistakes that had revealed both; pass him a document, and he'd sometimes read it over before remembering to ask someone to do it for him, and he sometimes soliloquized in flawless Grigori when discussing his latest schemes with his allies. "People of the Dog," that was the Bannor, "will not kneel. I demand money given that I may make them heel." Esirce nodded. "You! Boy!" That meant me. "My name is Remus," I reminded him quietly. "Yes, yes," he said with a dismissive wave. "Make sure Minister Ragas gets the money he needs." His allies would be drinking well tonight. So be it. I made a note to do it later, and he quickly forgot me.

Esirce then spoke to his fellow ministers. "Now, what shall we do about the economic crisis? My trusted assistant, Lord Wordsworth, has told me he has a solution to our problems. Care to tell the council?" Wordsworth grinned. "I have a proposal that would significantly increase our wealth through wise investing..." Anna was a merchant baron's daughter and heir apparent, and as Wordsworth explained in his double-talk, she translated. "He's proposing they invest in a bank owned by a man who, he failed to mention, is his brother-in-law. The interest rate is..." she quickly calculated, "less than half that offered by the Khazad banking establishments. He'll accuse the dwarves of being gold-hungry subhumans in... five, four, three, two... yep, there he goes. More racist ranting. If you start believing any of this nonsense, please tell me so I can hit you in the... ah, he's done. Now we get all sorts of words that don't have any meaning but sound really good, more, blah blah, yak yak, oh, looks like his bank is invested in only a few industries, none of them especially stable and... yeah, that's a pyramid scheme right there, with him and his political allies on top. And people ask me why I invest so heavily in foreign companies..."

The meeting finally ended. The ministers all shuffled out, while Esirce stayed behind. He beckoned for me and Anna to come. "Ah, Romulus! And your girlfriend!" I didn't even bother correcting him on either. "See, what you saw there was politics at its finest! Did you not see how I played each and every one of my ministers for their strengths, while minimizing their weaknesses! How I kept their various little schemes and ambitions in my pocket, and force them to use their skills for the good of the Grigori empire! Watch me, and you may learn something!" He sounded so certain I almost believed him. Until he added, "I do wish Alyeris would find a husband, though. Why a woman of her beauty remains single is beyond me, especially considering how many excellent bachelors she knows."
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/esirce.png

Hippus -

Jotnar -

Hephaestus - Blacksmith/Veinhunter/Emergent - Neutral

http://th09.deviantart.com/fs16/300W/f/2007/134/b/6/Hephaestus_by_TaekwondoNJ.jpg

Kahdi -

Khazad -

Athel Revus - Slaver/Emergent - Evil

The dwarf looked down on a ghost town. Ten days ago there had been a thriving village at the mouth of the valley, built along the banks of a rocky stream. It had boasted a tavern and a trading-post for the furriers and shepherds who made their living in the high peaks of the area. Indeed, the dwarf had sat in that tavern drinking beer he'd paid for with money made by trading tools to the villagers. Now the buildings were empty, some with doors or windows broken but most intact. The trading post still smoldered where the fires had reduced it to an ash-heap. Here and there a discarded bucket or jug attested to efforts to stop the fire, and a strange smell hung in the air, but there was no other sign of the inhabitants. "So," the dwarf called over his shoulder, "I see things went about as expected." Behind him another dwarf, barely visible in the twilight, nodded agreement. "The booze you sold them put most of the men out," he stated flatly, "and when we fired the post the rest came running. We rounded them up with no trouble." The first dwarf chuckled and rubbed his hands together. "Good. If the lads hurry them along we'll have them on the block in Hexam before the week is out. I appreciate your taking care of this for me. I had a few other ventures that needed my personal attention in the last few days."

"I hope one of them was getting rid of those papers. The Stewards don't like knowing someone's got their names in a file, and neither do I."

"Of course you don't. Then again," the merchant snarled, "I don't like being told I'll be 'donating' triple this month if I want my spices to make it back to the Underhome. Do you have any idea what the horselords charge me for those damned roots? You're the ones who lit the fuse on this charge, not me. I admit, though, that I'm sorry I had to get you involved. Blame your cousin for letting on while we were out drinking. That's something you might want to look into when you get back to Halowell."

The assassin spat, then melted away into the shadows, leaving Athel Revus to contemplate just what he was going to do with his new herd of sheep... and how long it would be before the cousin, who'd been undercutting him on provisions sales, would be out of the way.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/athel.png

Reorx Veinhunter - Veinhunter/Emergent - Neutral

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8235987&postcount=13
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/reorx.png

Kuriotates -

Yakut - Egalitarian/Emergent - Good

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/yakut.png

Lanun -

Mordmorgan - Virtuous Pirate/Emergent - Good

Pedia Entry by Far_Wanderer: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8130746&postcount=43
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/mordmorgan.png

Captain Blackheart - Swashbuckler/Emergent - Evil

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/blackheart.png

Ljosalfar -

Luchuirp -

Gimil - Craftmaster/Emergent - Good

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/gimil.png

Malakim -

Mazatl -

Mechanos -

Scions of Patria -

Sheaim -

Sidar -

Svartalfar -

Utiruso - Defender/Emergent - Evil

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/utiruso.png

The Legion of D'tesh -

Thanatos - Agnostic/Treacherous/Emergent - Evil

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/Dtesh1.png

New/Changed Traits

Emergent - Allows you to gain a trait based on gameplay decisions
Minor- +5% Maintenance, +25% Distance to Capital Maintenance.

Trait is removed upon construction of your fourth city.

Blacksmith - Allows Worker/Melee/Adept/Disciple/Recon units access to all weapon promotions.
Craftmaster - Grants Mobility 1 to all Golem units.
Defender - Grants City Garrison 1 to all Archery units.
Dominant - Grants Command 1 to all Melee units.
Egalitarian - +3 happiness, +1 food on tiles with 3 or more food, -10% commerce.
Hydromancer - Grants Water 1, Water Mastery to all Adept units.
New Promotion: Water Mastery - No penalty for attacking from sea/river. +50% Coast/Ocean attack/defense. +1 movement. Water Walking. Passes Water Mastery to summoned units.
Illusionist - Grants Illusion to all Arcane units, passing on to all Summoned units.
Instructor - Grants one free promotion to all built units.
Opportunistic - Grants Bounty Hunter to all Recon units, -10% civic upkeep.
Reckless - Grants Channeling 2, Unready to all Adept units.
New Promotion: Unready - +1 xp per turn, to a limit of 15xp. 8% chance to become a Barbarian unit each turn.
New Promotion: Unready Block (Effect Promo) - Removes Unready, grants Twincast. Requires tier 3+.
Slaver - Grants Slaver to all units. +10% Commerce. Conquered cities lose half of their population, but spawn one slave for every two pop lost.
New Promotion: Slaver - Grants a 15% chance to capture slaves from combat.
Summoner - Grants Summoner to all Arcane units.
New Promotion: Summoner - Requires Hero, Combat 5. Grants Combat 1 to all summoned units.
Swashbuckler - Grants Amphibious, Drill 1 to all Melee units.
Tolerant - As in FfH.
Treacherous - Grants Treacherous to all Recon units.
New Promotion: Treacherous - Poisoned Blade clone. Allows you access to both this way. Also removes Estranged... This is important for the Jotnar.
Tyrant - +5 Unhealth per city, creates the 'Monument to Tyranny' building in all cities.
New Building: Monument to Tyranny - Removes all unhappiness from the city.
Veinhunter - +1 production on tiles with 2 or more production.
Virtuous Pirate - Grants Hidden Nationality, 2 defensive strength, and 20% withdrawal to all Naval units.

Valkrionn

May 30, 2009, 05:29 AM

Minor Leaders

These are your 'standard' Minor leaders. They will offer new trait combinations for the civilization, but nothing radically new... A midground between the Major and Emergent leaders.

They should have two standard traits, plus Minor. Certain traits, however, should be paired with another weak trait... These are, off the top of my head, Industrious, Ingenuity, Magic Defense, Barbarian, Feral, and possibly Summoner. Using any of these traits is perfectly fine, so long as two are used for each normal trait they replace. Agg/Ind/Ing is fine; Agg/Ind is not in most cases. ;)

Some of these leaders have traits that are not finalized, and many will gain second traits as we transition from the original setup. Any new/uncertain traits will be in BOLD.

Amurites -

Archos -

Corane - Aggressive/Raider/Minor - Cypher132

Corane's birth was no different from the others. No physical mutations, nothing irregular with the boy. Most children learned to respect and revere the spiders that routinely wandered through the streets, catching what small animals they could and bringing them to Mother or the village market. Corane was different. When he saw one of this spiders he would kill it. Crush it with whatever was nearby then pick it up carefully, so as not to damage the body. The Elders were appalled and his parents scolded and beat him mercilessly, but he continued to collect these dead spiders, keeping them in a small box. He would carefully pull off their legs and make designs with them. Several contained all eight legs, some did not. He seperated the fangs and poison sacks from their bodies and kept them in a special jar as he studied what remained the carcasses.
His village was soon attacked by Barbarian Orcs, intent on pillaging and plundering whatever they could find. They had burst into Corane's house, expecting easy prey and much loot to be taken. However, in the center of the room stood Corane, holding what seemed to be piece of metal with the fangs of spiders carefully tied i with the poison sacks tied in the same caring manner. The Orcs assaulted him, but one-by-one fell to the still poisonous fangs attached to his new weapon. The Orcs were eventually driven off and the villagers accepted Corane as a hero in the batte.
As the years passed, he became a general in the army of the Archos. He commanded his troops be immunized to the poison of the spiders through experiments that would be considered illegal under most governments. When he was finished, he stood before a massive army, ready to give their lives to protect the Archos and to do the bidding of Mother. Following Daracaat's orders, he led this men to a small valley, the Valley of Spiders, and began build his own empire, keen on the destruction of all other civilizations around him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Corane paced back and forth in front of the prisoner. He looked the man over and was disgusted by what he saw. His hair was dirty and knotted. His clothes looked like patchwork and his skin was dirty enough to make even slaves cringe. The man was caught sneaking through the fortress walls with bundles of military papers. He was beaten and promptly brought to Corane for questioning. "You've come all this way. Traveled the great mountains. Gone through the haunted forest. All to try to spy on us. Tell me. What is it that you have come for?"
The prisoner merely looked down, staunchly remaining quiet. "Very well, then. Agnir, show him what happens when prisoners do not comply." A rather gruff looking Archosian nodded and grabbed one of the prisoner's hands. He held it to the ground and pulled out a wicked-looking knife. The prisoner screamed as his fingers were sliced through with the knife. He fell to the ground, clutching his now fingerless hand, sobbing and crying to Junil. "Now. Will you tell me why you have come all this way?"
The prisoner merely spat on Corane's shoes and cursed Mother. "You dare insult Mother, you ingrate!?" Corane smacked the prisoner across the face. "Nobody, and I repeat, nobody insults Mother. Cut off his other fingers." The prisoner screamed and protested as the guards held his other hand to the ground. He screamed even louder as Agnir sliced the fingers off his hand. Corane grabbed the prisoner by the hair and held him up to look him in the eye. "Now tell me! Who are you!? Where did you come from!? Why are you here?"
The prisoner sobbed slightly and held his now mangled hands close to his chest. "I...I was sent to spy on you. Learn your tactics, but that's all I know." Corane nodded silently then kicked the prisoner in the stomach. "Tell me all of it! All the truth!" The prisoner began openly sobbing and crying hysterically. "I was to learn your military formations and your resources! I was to learn your plans and report them to my master! I was to find weaknesses in your defenses! I swear that's all I know!" As he finished yelling he curled up on the stone floor, which was slowly becoming stained with his blood.
Corane held his hands behind his back and bent over to speak to the prisoner. "And who, might I ask, is your master? Or must we sever..Other things?" The prisoner screamed at this and yelled "Capria! Capria! It was Capria, I swear!" Corane stood up looking satisfied and turned to Agnir. "Have our scribes recorded this session?" Agnir nodded and grabbed a chart from a nearby Archosian. "The whole thing. The questioning, commission of guilt, everything." Agnir looked up at Corane. "What shall we put as his sentence, milord?"
Corane looked at the whimpering man before him. "Throw him to the spiders. I am sure Mother is hungry and wishes for a more..Exotic meal." With that, Corane strode into his throne room and closed the doors behind him. Agnir and some fellow soldiers lifted the sobbing wreck and threw him into a dark hole. Amongst the screams of agony, you could hear the hissing of creatures and the sound of their many legs converging on their screaming meal.
http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/costas_haritoss_portfolio/images/21812/382x425.aspx
Ashen Veil: Hates it
Council of Esus: Very fond of it
Fellowship of Leaves: Rather fond of it
Runes of Kilmorph: Rather fond of it
Order: Hates it
Empyrean: Hates it
Octopus Overlords: Indifferent
He's not very religious-based. He's not too keen on Armageddon so he has a slightly more intense hatred for the Ashen Veil so he's more likely to attack a civ that follows it. He doesn't like having close borders with people and will generally pick the weakest civ or the one with a resource he needs. He plays nice with other civs, but it constantly planning behind their backs just in case something needs to be done, which is why the Council fits him. If the Bannor attacked him, he'd be surprised momentarily and then would already have a counterattack plan in place.

AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DECLARE_WAR
#Mother desires war with your people. There will be war.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_VASSAL
#Listen, [leadername], I hereby renounce your pathetic protection
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_OFFER_VASSAL
#The Archosian have been sieged. We are weak, in need of assisstance. It shames me, but will you assist us?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_FIRST_CONTACT
#Ah, what's this? A new nation? Yes, they will be fun for the spiders....
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_REFUSE_TO_TALK
#Unless you wish to feed the next generation of spiders, I suggest you leave.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_PEACE
#Sometimes peace is necesarry, if only to rebuild your army for another war.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_PEACE
#Ha! You still believe you can defeat us in war? Wait until the spiders swarm upon your cities.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Friendly)
#Greetings, [leadername]! Have you tried the Spiderwine?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Pleased)
#Go, [leadername], speak up! Tell me your plans.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Cautious)
# Speak up, [leadername]! I have things to kill.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Annoyed)
# Speak up, [leadername]. The spiders are hungry and are seeking a meal.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Furious)
#[leadername], welcome. We were just wondering what to feed the spiders.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_ACCEPT (Friendly)
#Yes, this is a good idea. You had a good head on your shoulders.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_ACCEPT (Furious)
#If Mother smiled upon us, you'd be dead right now. But we must accept.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_REJECT (Friendly)
#Sorry, friend. That just won't do.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_REJECT (Furious)
#Just because I keep the company of spiders does not mean I don't know when I'm being deceived. Give me a better deal or I'll throw you to the spiders!
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GLAD (Friendly)
#I'm sure this will benefit us. Both of us.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GLAD (Pleased-Annoyed)
#I suppose we could do that.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GLAD (Furious)
#Ha! Just because I keep the company of spiders does not mean I don't know a good deal. I accept.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_SORRY (Friendly)
#I apologize, [leadername]. We have other matters to attend to.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_SORRY (Pleased-Annoyed)
#I apologize, [leadername]. We have other matters to attend to.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_SORRY (Furious)
#You expect help from us after the way you've treated us? Get out, you dog, before you become spider food!
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_TRY_THIS_DEAL
#Here. Give this some thought.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_OFFER_PEACE
#Enough blood has been spilt to please mother. Sign this and let's be done with it.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_JOIN_WAR
#We need a little help [leadername]. [civilization] has wronged Erebus and we need your help to make it right.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_JOIN_WAR_DENIED
#I know you were a coward. If you lived in the Archosian society, you'd be dead.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_DEAL (Friendly)
# I apologize, [leadername]. We don't deal with spider food.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_DEAL (Furious)
# We will give you nothing. You will take the venom of our spiders before you get what you want.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_THANKS
#Thank you. Care for some Spiderwine?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_TRIBUTE (Stronger)
#Listen, [leadername]. I'm a leader of a nation that has integrated with spiders. We could crush you within a moment. Maybe something might deter us...
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_TRIBUTE (Equal)
#Listen, [leadername]. We're in need of something to continue the Archosian race and you have it. What do you say?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_TRIBUTE (Weaker)
#We need some help. Mind helping us out, friend?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_REJECTED (Stronger)
#You think that we couldn't hunt you down and kill you? We know every crack of your palace, every flaw in your walls, we can kill with you just one order. No, your demand is rejected, peasant.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_REJECTED (Equal)
#Oh, yeah. Take what you can while our elder spiders die. We'll have revenge.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_REJECTED (Weaker)
#What are you gonna do? Spit on Mother? Have sex with my family? Slaughter my men? You can have it this time, but don't expect reprisal.

When killed:
Alas, this is Mother's will. Hopefully, the spiders Mother spawns will seek their way to your throats.

Austrin -

Balseraphs -

Weevil, Pickle, and Hyde - Aggressive/Minor - Evil

Pedia Entry by Jabie- http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7994766&postcount=326

Furia the Mad - Charismatic/Minor - Evil

it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts

Do you think you know fear? Do you think you know pain? Do you think you know anything? They call me mad, but I'm not mad. You are. You must be. If you weren't mad, the pain would make you scream.

The pain. Everything is pain. Pain is everywhere. You can close your eyes and pretend it away. But I can't. I can't make the pain go away.

why why why you must scream you want to scream you cant scream because youve forgotten how doesnt it hurt why arent you screaming dont you feel the pain i'll make you feel the pain pain pain pain

"You look like an angel," they say. I should. Sirona's angels are beautiful. Sirona's angels are merciful. Sirona's angels are kind. Do you know what the Balseraphs do to things that are beautiful, merciful, kind? They defile them.

And so I came to be. My mother tried to stop caring. They'd given up trying to make her suffer directly. No pain could make her scream any more. Except the pain of others.

So when she was with child, they knew what to do. How to make her suffer more than ever before. They hurt me. But I wasn't like her. I hurt back.

yes scream scream scream you fools how do you like it now you taught me well now i teach you yes this is pain pain embrace it beg for mercy does it hurt yes it hurts you must suffer you will suffer scream until your lungs explode pain all your life is pain beg me for death i will not give it slowly slowly make your pain last

I killed my mother first, though. Quickly. It was the kindest thing anyone had done for her since the Balseraphs captured her. Maybe she's with Sirona. Maybe she has become nothing. She's in a better place either way.

But I am her daughter, and yet a Balseraph. I cannot be like the other Balseraphs. I feel the pain of all of Jubilee, of tortured slaves and downtrodden peasants, freaks whipped for the amusement of the masses, gladiators seeking freedom, either in fame or death. I also tried to stop caring. But I succeeded. Every moment of my life is agony. Suffering. PAIN. I don't even notice another screaming voice in the chorus of misery. So I share this pain with anyone fool enough to cross my path.

But sometimes, when I look in the mirror... just for a moment, I see my mother. I see goodness, beauty, hope, peace. I hear a feeble little voice... perhaps my mother, perhaps my conscience, perhaps Sirona herself, begging me to stop, to seek to help those suffering voices that scream in my head every hour of the day. And I hate it. I know its right, so I hate it all the more. I don't care anymore. They all need to die.

Melisandre - Expansive/Minor - Evil

Bannor -

Calabim -

Chislev -

Clan of Embers -

Cualli -

Doviello -

Dural -

Elohim -

Thessalonica - Defender/Tolerant/Minor - Good

Grigori -

Goodreau - Financial/Minor - Good

The ale was bitter.

Goodreau sighed as he the amber liquid sloshed in his mug, the wagon creaking as it passed through the crossroads. The road was desolate, dreary even as he clenched his teeth, a wind peircing through the thin cloak he wore. Raising the mug to his lips again, his face contorted as the pungent aroma of the booze wafted from the porcelain. Juno wasnt far, and from there it would be a two days ride to Midgar.

The ale was sour.

Memories of his past life plauged him as he took up the reins to his wagon, laden with goods as he left the gates of Juno. He remembered what Cassiel had told him in those halls, that day he had renounced his identity as Tamur. He didnt have this mug then.

The ale was spilt.

Goodreau sighed, watching the barmaid wipe up the booze as it soaked into the floorboards. The roadside inn he had stopped at was perpetually caught in this thick haze of smoke, but his own pipe did nothing but add to the smog. Despite this, his thoughts always drifted back to one thing instead of being lost in the smoke of antiquity.

The ale was bittersweet.

He saw the grey haze of smoke part slightly, as the barmaid returned with another ale for him.

Goodreau smiled. He saw Elizabeth in the haze, waiting for him to fufill his dream.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/goodreau.png

Hippus -

Captain Ostanes - Creative/Expansive/Minor - Neutral
Captain Uldanor - Financial/Organized/Minor - Neutral

Jotnar -

Kahdi -

Khazad -

Kuriotates -

Herne - Defender/Expansive/Minor - Good

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/herne.png

Cheron - Raiders/Aggressive/Minor - Neutral

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/cheron.png

Lanun -

Casin Loveless - Financial/Philosophical/Minor - Neutral (Diplo bonus with Males)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/casin.png

Ljosalfar -

Eldaren Alcarin - Spiritual/Arcane/Minor - Good

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/eldarwen.png

Luchuirp -

Letigo - Expansive/Aggressive/Minor - Neutral

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/letigo.png

Malakim -

Kane - Charismatic/Organized/Minor - Neutral

Kane looked upon the spoils of his latest conquest, piled impressively in his throne room. Gold and silver, jewels, and most beautiful of all, weapons and armor... the demon-kings, the wretched Calabim, had started another skirmish with his people, and been beaten back by the might of the Malakim empire. They were arrogant, Alexis and Flauros, even though they continued existing only because Kane whimmed it. They were a useful way to dispose of lesser warlords. But every so often, as now, they tried to attack him. As ever, they failed. Which gave Kane an excuse to send raiding parties of his own, to remind them of their place in the world; his pets, his hounds, nothing more Kane smiled, and thought it good.

But that was not all. A minor tribe of orcs had attempted to defy his glory. Their precious "Bhall" had been deaf to their pleas as Kane's soldiers had slaughtered every man, woman, and child in one of their stinking towns. Kane had sent a few skulls to each and every other orcish tribe, and kept a few for his own; their warlord's in particular would serve as an excellent cup for his collection. It was a waste of lives, and Kane hardly enjoyed such slaughter, but the Orcs would not respect anything but brutality. Suffice it to say, the raids had stopped. Kane smiled, and thought it good.

Meanwhile, Kane suspected the Svartalfar had planted yet another agent in his harem... they seemed to have an unusually large number of pretty women. He'd feed her some minor misinformation, and see if the Svartalfar acted on it. Sadly, after what happened to the first one he'd captured alive, the Svartalfar agents had taken to committing suicide upon discovery, or even suspicion of such. A shame, seeing how much fun he'd had with that first one. Kane was known to be far gentler to his women them most of the Malakim warlords, but when this wench had awoken the beast within him... Kane smiled, and thought it good.

A messenger burst in. "My lord, word from Golden Leane." Kane regretted not burning that place to the ground. Technically, the man should have announced himself, and not charged in as he had, but Kane knew better then to do anything foolish. He waved off his attendants and gestured for the man to continue. "They've revolted. Again. They're lead by... an elf, of all things, name Varn Gosam." "Kill Varn. Is that so hard?" The messenger paused. Kane gussed from the look on the man's face that the answer was "yes." "I'll arrange for one of the elite to deal with this man. Tell me about him." The messenger did... and as he listened to the tales, Kane stopped smiling.

Mazatl -

Mechanos -

Maer - Charismatic/Ingenuity/Magic Defense/Minor - Neutral

Scions of Patria -

Sheaim -

Malchavic - Summoner/Minor - Evil

Sidar -

Mirrough - Charismatic/Minor - Neutral

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/mirrough.png

Shekinah - Philosophical/Minor - Neutral

Svartalfar -

Rivanna the Wraith Lord - Opportunistic/Minor - Evil
Volanna - Treacherous/Minor - Evil

The Legion of D'tesh -

Valkrionn

May 30, 2009, 05:29 AM

Trait Requirements

The Minor trait allows you to gain new traits as you play. The majority of these will also remove Minor, meaning you can generally only grab one. The exceptions are Ingenuity and Magic Defense. In addition, several traits will have a small chance to gain an additional trait. For example, Arcane gives you a 3-5% chance to gain Summoner. All criteria are listed below.

Aggressive
Bronze Working - 3%
Iron Working - 5%
Kill Another Civ - 100%

Arcane
Knowledge of the Ether - 3% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Summoner
Sorcery - 50% - if gained 5% chance to also gain Summoner
Build Arcane Libralus - 100%

Creative
Festivals - 3%
Drama - 20%

Expansive
Sanitation - 10% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Ingenuity
Medicine - 20%
Upon Reaching 8 Cities - 20%

Financial
Trade - 10%
Currency - 20% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Organized
Mathematics - 50% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Philosophical

Industrious
Construction - 3% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Expansive
Smelting - 10% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Aggressive
Engineering - 20% - if gained 5% chance to also gain Expansive

Ingenuity
Start a Golden Age - 50%

Magic Defense
Build 2nd Altar of Luonnotar - 100%

Organized
Code of Laws - 3% - if gained, 5% to also gain Financial
Military Strategy - 20% - if gained, 5% to also gain Aggressive
Build Forbidden Palace - 100%

Philosophical
Writing - 3% - if gained 5% to also gain Creative
Philosophical - 50% - if gained, 5% to also gain Creative
Each Great Person Born - 10%

Raiders
Pillage Improvement - 5%
Raze City - 10%

Spiritual
Priesthood - 3%
Religious Law - 10%
Fanatacism - 20%
Found a Religion - 50%

New Leaders

If you want to contribute a leader of your own, feel free. :p Just a few guidelines:

PLEASE have a leaderhead picked out. It's a pain finding art for someone else's creation, when you aren't sure exactly what they had in mind. :lol: Also, please make sure the image is either not copyrighted, or is allowed for non-profit use under the Creative Commons... Or ask permission of the artist, of course.
For Emergent leaders - Provide a unique trait, but one that plays well with the civ... For example, no Egalitarian for the Calabim or Lanun. :eek:
For Minor leaders - Provide a trait combination not used by that particular civ. It's fine if it uses the same traits as a rival leader, as different civs play completely different.
Provide religious weightings/AI type. If you don't know the code it's fine, just include descriptions of how the leader should feel about each religion and how friendly/warlike they are.
(Optional, but encouraged) Provide a back story, some reason to include the leader. I have a much easier time rationalizing leader bloat when they have good stories behind them.
(Optional) Provide Diplotext for the leader. A template is posted below, from one of icarussc's posts in Opera's thread. :p

AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DECLARE_WAR
#Since there doesn't seem to be any hope that you'll change, we'll do things the hard way.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_VASSAL
#Listen, [leadername], I was leading these people while you were still squalling on your mother's lap. I don't need your help.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_OFFER_VASSAL
#The Grigori need more help than I can give them. You are a wise leader and have led your people with skill through these troubled days. Lead us as well.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_FIRST_CONTACT
#Well, it seems that another tribe is prospering in these dark days. We are the Grigori; we plan to live in freedom; from oppression, fear, from mortals, and from gods.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_REFUSE_TO_TALK
#I'm getting too old to waste my time with a fool like you. Get out.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_PEACE
#That's just fine. If you find yourselves need of the light of truth and knowledge, you know where to find us
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_PEACE
#Well, that's disappointing. In that case, you had best leave; we have preparations to make.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Friendly)
#Well, if it isn't [leadername]! I hope things are progressing as well for you as they are for us. We're learning more every day.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Pleased)
#Speak up, [leadername], speak up! I haven't got all day, you know.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Cautious)
# Speak up, [leadername], speak up! I haven't got all day, you know.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Annoyed)
# Speak up, [leadername], speak up! I haven't got all day, you know.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GREETINGS (Furious)
#This is the life of a leader – I have real work to do, but I have to spend my time listening to the demands of adolescents like you. What do you want?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_ACCEPT (Friendly)
#Yes, not a bad idea. Not a bad idea at all.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_ACCEPT (Furious)
#You'd steal the shawl from my shoulders if you could. But we'll take it.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_REJECT (Friendly)
#No, no. That won't do at all.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_REJECT (Furious)
#Do you think because I'm old, I'm senile? Take your offers to the sewers – it's where they belong!
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GLAD (Friendly)
#Yes, to brighten the light anywhere is to brighten it everywhere. Take it with our good wishes.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GLAD (Pleased-Annoyed)
#That's reasonable, I suppose. Very well. Anything else?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_GLAD (Furious)
#You think you're quite the sharp negotiator, don't you? You don't impress me. We accept because we must.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_SORRY (Friendly)
#I wish we could help, [leadername], but we can't spare the time from our studies. You understand, I'm sure.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_SORRY (Pleased-Annoyed)
#No, I think you have quite enough without taking anything from us.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_SORRY (Furious)
#I certainly feel sorry for your mother. What must she think of you, barging in here and demanding that we give you our hard-won achievements? You won't get any help from us.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_TRY_THIS_DEAL
#Nothing like an exchange of information to benefit everyone.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_OFFER_PEACE
#The truth is, we've both taken more of a beating than we can afford. Shouldn't we put a stop to it?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_JOIN_WAR
#Now tell the truth, [leadername]; you know that the [civilization] was going to have to be dealt with sooner or later. Well, it's sooner. And the quicker we put them in their place, the quicker we can all get back to our real work.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_JOIN_WAR_DENIED
#So you plan on sitting back and letting the old woman do all the work? That's just like you.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_DEAL (Friendly)
# I wish we could help, [leadername], but we can't spare the time from our studies. You understand, I'm sure.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_NO_DEAL (Furious)
# I certainly feel sorry for your mother. What must she think of you, barging in here and demanding that we give you our hard-won achievements? You won't get any help from us.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_THANKS
#We appreciate it. I appreciate it.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_TRIBUTE (Stronger)
#Listen, [leadername]. I've brought you along, helped you out, practically taught you everything you know. Now there's something you've got that we need.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_TRIBUTE (Equal)
#We Grigori pride ourselves on being good neighbors, and that means sharing the wealth that we have. Just like you're going to do with us.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_TRIBUTE (Weaker)
#Listen, neighbor, we need your help. Don't hold out on us.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_REJECTED (Stronger)
#You can't hurt us. You wouldn't slow down our studies, even if you made good on your threats. Now why don't you find some other old ladies to bully?
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_REJECTED (Equal)
#Oh, the big tough, pushing around an old woman. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.
AI_DIPLOCOMMENT_DEMAND_REJECTED (Weaker)
#What next? Knock me down and take my scarf and pipe? That's about your speed. I'll keep the scarf and pipe and everything else, thank you.

When killed:
We placed our trust in knowledge rather than the unfaithful gods, but it seems that knowledge, too, has vanished away. The Grigori go quietly into the long darkness that awaits us – and, without the light of our sciences, awaits you.

Issues
Minister Koun:
Not sure I should allow Koun. He's meant to be playable via an event... As the Grigori already have two other minor leaders, I think I'll just make him unplayable except via event. He'll stay minor.

Balance:
Always an issue. :lol: I'm not too sure about Mirrough (Charismatic Sidar?).

Credits
Notque, of course.
Magister_Cultuum for the Broken Compact code.
25hour for several traits.
Opera for the Mercurian minor leaders.
Killer Clowns for Prime Minister Esirce, Kane, and Furia civilopedia entries
King of Lands for Athel civilopedia entry
Korias for Goodreau civilopedia entry
Jabie for Weevil, Pickle, and Hyde entry.
Far_Wanderer for Mordmorgan's entry.

Guybrush!

May 30, 2009, 05:58 AM

What about Kahd? Do we just make him / her a Kahd worshipper? Kinda the same deal as D'tesh though.

WarKirby

May 30, 2009, 06:18 AM

What exactly are minor leaders? what purpose do they serve?

Opera

May 30, 2009, 07:49 AM

They can gain new traits according to your gameplay (and the AI's). The new trait(s) replaces the Minor trait. Apart from that, they're just new leaders :)

@Valkrionn: you can check mine for Scions and Mechanos, see if you want them ;)

far_wanderer

May 30, 2009, 10:42 AM

Preliminary suggestions:

Austrin - Patrick. A hunter and wartime leader, he harnesses the aggressive aspects of the wind. Raiders/Sinister/Minor.

Cualli - S'Cilnickt, Voice of the End Times. A doomsaying prophet of Armageddon. Cold-blooded/Minor, is at peace with Agares.

Khadi - I suggest none. The Khadi's story is already pretty heavily focused on Khad.

Jotnar - A Triton. Give him/her Minor, Ingenuity, and the Seafaring technology. I'm imagining an ancient giantkin elder who survived the Age of Ice by hiding underwater (Seafaring), and so remembers some of the old lore (Ingenuity).

Scions - Korrina. Switch her to Organized/Minor, or just add minor, but lore-wise she's already mostly a minor leader.

Mechanos - I think Maer already was a minor leader at some point. She could use a third trait anyway since Ingenuity is pretty weak, why not make it minor?

D'tesh - I think you're right about them being exempt, not enough free-willed people in the empire for any of them to be leader-quality.

Vermicious Knid

May 30, 2009, 10:51 AM

An agnostic Titan would be a good minor leader for the Jotnar. Financial?

On a mostly unrelated note, I think the neutral Jot leader should have Conqueror. Fits his description text better.

UNIT 666

May 30, 2009, 11:06 AM

Khadi - I suggest none. The Khadi's story is already pretty heavily focused on Khad.

Fake Kahd? Not sure if that's possible lore-wise, though.

...and I guess that would be an alternate leader, not a minor one.

Edit: Or, more along the lines of Korrina, it could be Dahk, an underling of Khad.

D'tesh - I think you're right about them being exempt, not enough free-willed people in the empire for any of them to be leader-quality.

For the D'Tesh (Who I know almost nothing about) how about a leader made (and maybe controlled) by the ruler -- an undead being that can rule in his stead. Everyone needs vacations, you know!

WarKirby

May 30, 2009, 02:31 PM

I don't really see much need for new leaders, personally. don't we hve plenty as is?

Valkrionn

May 30, 2009, 03:10 PM

What about Kahd? Do we just make him / her a Kahd worshipper? Kinda the same deal as D'tesh though.

Woops, forgot him..... But yes, they're focused on Kahd. Don't know about a minor leader there..... Although the Kuriotates are the same way, so an underling would work fine.

What exactly are minor leaders? what purpose do they serve?

They are essentially customizable leaders, a method of getting trait/civ combination that wouldn't happen otherwise.

They can gain new traits according to your gameplay (and the AI's). The new trait(s) replaces the Minor trait. Apart from that, they're just new leaders :)

@Valkrionn: you can check mine for Scions and Mechanos, see if you want them ;)

I'll probably end up with them. :lol: I tend to steal quite a bit... Although I'm not sure about the Scion leader. I think a Doomgiver would be a better fit.

Preliminary suggestions:

Austrin - Patrick. A hunter and wartime leader, he harnesses the aggressive aspects of the wind. Raiders/Sinister/Minor.

Cualli - S'Cilnickt, Voice of the End Times. A doomsaying prophet of Armageddon. Cold-blooded/Minor, is at peace with Agares.

Khadi - I suggest none. The Khadi's story is already pretty heavily focused on Khad.

Jotnar - A Triton. Give him/her Minor, Ingenuity, and the Seafaring technology. I'm imagining an ancient giantkin elder who survived the Age of Ice by hiding underwater (Seafaring), and so remembers some of the old lore (Ingenuity).

Scions - Korrina. Switch her to Organized/Minor, or just add minor, but lore-wise she's already mostly a minor leader.

Mechanos - I think Maer already was a minor leader at some point. She could use a third trait anyway since Ingenuity is pretty weak, why not make it minor?

D'tesh - I think you're right about them being exempt, not enough free-willed people in the empire for any of them to be leader-quality.

I like your suggestions, aside from Korinna. :lol: And yes, Maer will be a minor leader again. I love the other suggestions though... They'd be VERY different from the other leaders.

Fake Kahd? Not sure if that's possible lore-wise, though.

...and I guess that would be an alternate leader, not a minor one.

Edit: Or, more along the lines of Korrina, it could be Dahk, an underling of Khad.

For the D'Tesh (Who I know almost nothing about) how about a leader made (and maybe controlled) by the ruler -- an undead being that can rule in his stead. Everyone needs vacations, you know!

I don't know about D'tesh... It seems like he wouldn't appoint any underlings, honestly. I like your 'Dahk' suggestion though... Particularly the name. :lol:

I don't really see much need for new leaders, personally. don't we hve plenty as is?

Yes, but none of them are anything like this. :p

cyther

May 30, 2009, 06:00 PM

If D'Tesh were to have underlings it would probably be so sort of creature immune to his control/necromancy such as an Angel/Demon likely affiliated with the Death sphere.

I would think that this creature would have been sent by Laroth as D'Tesh doesn't care about souls and only need bodies. He would probably have no problem with some sort of helper that would aid him in his conquests even if it sent the souls straight to Laroth.

Valkrionn

May 30, 2009, 06:32 PM

Hmm... That's not a bad idea there. Laroth and D'tesh would be able to work together pretty well... Maybe an Angel of Death who's tired of Laroth's lack of worldly intervention, and has aligned himself with Laroth?

Valkrionn

May 30, 2009, 08:30 PM

Well, I've got most of the existing minor leaders worked in... Because of the differences in schema, I'll have to make a new entry for quite a few though. 21, in fact... All the ones that he added himself. :cry: I hate the leaderhead files.... And yet I've been finding myself in there more and more, lately.

Guybrush!

May 30, 2009, 08:43 PM

Dahk is an awesome name, you've gotta use that! :D

Valkrionn

May 30, 2009, 11:39 PM

haha I'm seriously considering it. :p One thing I forgot to mention... My Duin leader for Doviello+ will be a minor leader. Something I always intended, just never got around to merging it. :lol:

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 12:11 AM

WOO! Finished merging. Bout to put up a write-up on what civs get what.

WarKirby

May 31, 2009, 12:29 AM

I've always thought generally, that leader traits were designed to provide an interesting playstyle for the civ. Some civs could be seriously broken if custom traits were alowed. Sidar with Warlord/Charismatic springs to mind.

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 12:34 AM

Only vanilla traits can be gained... One of the Sidar leaders DOES start with Charismatic, but that will probably be changed. Honestly, the main leader I'm worried about balance wise is for the Grigori... Prime Minister Esirce is Tolerant. Should be interesting. :lol:

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 01:42 AM

Finished the list, finally. My apologies for taking so long. :lol:

Edit: Edited it a little, added a post explaining the Broken Compact leaders and any issues I see with the various leaders.

far_wanderer

May 31, 2009, 02:24 AM

You should add the civilopedia descriptions and any other relevant lore if you want us to suggest changes for duplicate traits. Right now all we have to go on are pictures :).
I'm especially curious about Emma Vargamor, and why she's Agnostic.

Only vanilla traits can be gained... One of the Sidar leaders DOES start with Charismatic, but that will probably be changed. Honestly, the main leader I'm worried about balance wise is for the Grigori... Prime Minister Esirce is Tolerant. Should be interesting. :lol:
The potential for Organized Jotnar seems mildly frightening as well.

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 02:29 AM

Haha, I would if they had them. Emma is actually from a werewolf civ mod, but I didn't touch her. So far this is all Notque's work. :lol:

That would be interesting, yes...... Also rather fun. :p

Opera

May 31, 2009, 02:32 AM

Broken Compact:

Random Infernal/Mercurian leaders will enter the game. Currently, the Infernals enter upon completion of the Demonic Pact ritual, which requires the Infernal Pact technology. This ritual can be completed by each civilization only once, and can only be completed 7 times for each of 7 Infernal leaders. The Infernals themselves are blocked from construction.

Eventually, the Mercurians will function in a similar way, with multiple Mercurian Gate wonders.Huh. You beat me on this... You're releasing so fast :lol: Now, everyone would think I stole things from you :p

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 02:51 AM

Haha, you've discovered my evil plan. :satan:

Added the bit of pedia text I have... Credits are on the 4th post.

Killer Clowns for Prime Minister Esirce, Kane, and Furia civilopedia entries
King of Lands for Athel civilopedia entry
Korias for Goodreau civilopedia entry

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 04:07 AM

Ugh. Found a bug already haha. Apparently the different Infernal leaders have their own hyborem clones... Only Hybie starts with the Gela. I was planning on adding that so it's fine, but I couldn't figure out why it kept crashing when the infernals came in. The game was trying to add a non-existent unit. :lol: Planning on changing them to reflect the leader they're supposed to be... Leth should be a succubus, for example.

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 04:42 AM

Fixed, and the minor trait is working as well..... While I was testing I researched optics, got swashbuckling. :goodjob:

Jabie

May 31, 2009, 04:52 AM

Re: Weevil, Pickle and Hyde. Feel free to use the story "Slavery" for their background. You can find it in the stories thread in the Lore forum.

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 04:59 AM

Thanks, putting it in now. :goodjob:

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 08:35 AM

Added Opera's Mercurians. Fixed it so the Mercs will spawn when the Gate is built, one each time to a max of 4. The Mercs are able to summon each other, unlike with the Infernals.

WarKirby

May 31, 2009, 08:47 AM

able to summon each other? what?

I don't understand what you've done here.

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 08:53 AM

The Mecurian Gate can be built up to 4 times, but only once per player. Each time it's built, a new Mercurian leader will spawn. Since each mercurian faction is a new player, they are free to build a new gate once they hit 3 cities, bringing in another Mercurian leader.

Ahwaric

May 31, 2009, 09:06 AM

I agree with opera, you are fast!

For Scions, I think Korinna can be changed to a minor leader. Scions are so centered around the emperor that she would be minor compared to him. But I wonder what Tarqueline would say...

If you like any of my minor leaders, feel free to use them. All are different than Notque's and I have added at least one minor for every civ that had none. I quite like some of them (what else - even, to loosely quote, 'the druidic version of Doviello' ;) )

far_wanderer

May 31, 2009, 09:13 AM

Haha, I would if they had them. Emma is actually from a werewolf civ mod, but I didn't touch her. So far this is all Notque's work. :lol:

That would be interesting, yes...... Also rather fun. :p

I wondered if that was the case with Emma, but she didn't have Lycanthropic, so I was confused.

The pedia text for Prime Minister Esirce is amazing, and will be even more hilarious if he turns out to be the overpowered leader.

How will multiple Mercurians and Infernals deal with souls? As in, if a relevant units dies, and there are three Infernals in the game, who gets a Mane?

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 09:14 AM

Eh, took me nearly 2 weeks to merge in the Mechanos. :lol: Smaller things I merge in pretty quickly, though.

I'd like Tarq's opinion on that as well... Personally I don't think I like the idea much, but you're right, they're centered on the emperor.

I'll probably end up grabbing yours as well. :lol:

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 09:19 AM

I wondered if that was the case with Emma, but she didn't have Lycanthropic, so I was confused.

The pedia text for Prime Minister Esirce is amazing, and will be even more hilarious if he turns out to be the overpowered leader.

How will multiple Mercurians and Infernals deal with souls? As in, if a relevant units dies, and there are three Infernals in the game, who gets a Mane?

At the moment, all of them do. I'm not sure if I want to fix that, or leave it...

Also, the Mercs are officially working. I had an issue where Hyborem was leading them. :lol: Forgot to change the name of the leader added to the list, as well as where it checks if that leader was ever in game.

Emma would have been Lycanthropic, but then she'd just be a Duin clone... so I kept her as Opportunistic.

And Esirce has one of my favorite entries. :lol: I like Furia's as well.....

WarKirby

May 31, 2009, 09:21 AM

Does this mean there could be one massive mercurian faction?

I'd like to know what happens with souls too.

Valkrionn

May 31, 2009, 09:30 AM

WarKirby

May 31, 2009, 09:49 AM

Quetz

May 31, 2009, 11:03 AM

Some pic ideas

Mercurians:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_archont_h.png

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_astraldeva_h.png

Infernal:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_devil_h.png

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_mephisto_h.png

Good elf:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_el_f_14_h.png

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_gn_f_06_h.png

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_el_m_11_h.png

Svarts:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_matmother_h.png
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_nathyrra_h.png
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_el_f_17_h.png

A thoughtful Orc:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_or_m_08_h.png

Amurite or Kahd?

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_halaster_h.png

Balseraph? (this pic was long before Batman XD)

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_jester_h.png

Bannor/Martial elohim/Mercurian female (cute!)

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_queenshao_h.png

Bannor/etc male:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_hu_m_43_h.png

D'tesh?

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_gatekeep_h.png
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_morgh_h.png
Lizards:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_cskikil_h.png
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_oldmage_h.png
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii238/nukularpower/po_oldwar_h.png

Need resized and whatnot but nothing thats a big deal.

Opera

May 31, 2009, 11:15 AM

Pictures below 512*512 (or 410*512) will certainly look weird because they would need to be stretched to 512*512... or so I think. I always choose my pics above 410 for weight (as I stretch them 125% anyway) and above 512 for height.

far_wanderer

May 31, 2009, 12:47 PM

I think it makes them all a bit too powerful.

Personally, I think that when a unit dies, it should have only ONE soul. Either an angel or a mane appropriately. And randomly choosing between when both are valid (like a paladin with death magic)
If you could do it so they get priority on souls sharing their religion and/or team, it would be even better. The reason I like this concept is because it means that if someone is going crazy with Basium because all of your troops are becoming angels, you can summon your own counter-angel to keep your troops from going to the enemy. It always bothered me that Basium got such an incredible advantage from fighting good people.
Yes, yes it does. The Mercs are underpowered compared to the Infernals, so I'm okay with that.

Clearly we play in different ways. In all of my games, the Mercurians slaughter everything. Mercurians get absurd combat bonuses against most evil people, and absurd amounts of troops against good people. All the Infernals really get is immunity to Armageddon.

EDIT: You forgot to remove Barbarian from the Infernal minor leaders. Also, I have an idea for pedia text for Mordmorgan - I'll write and post it after I finish my current game.

far_wanderer

May 31, 2009, 09:57 PM

A suggested story for Mordmorgan:

The Elohim merchant vessel had been almost too easy to capture. The pirate vessel had snuck up on them silently in the mist, wrecking their mast with the first broadside before the merchants even knew they where in danger. Pirates grinned as they drew alongside and readied grappling hooks – the merchant crew screamed and ran into their cabins in senseless terror.
The captain came on board personally with the first wave. A woman had been spotted fleeing into the main cabin, and the captain liked to claim such prizes personally. His crew dispersed below decks to ferret out the fleeing merchant cowards that had abandoned their posts. The captain kicked down the door with a fearsome and bellowing laugh that he reserved for inspire terror in his prisoners. Stretched out on the desk of the main cabin was, indeed, a woman's dress, but it was empty. Just then a call came out from behind him.
“Captain! The mast!”
“What about it?” He bellowed.
“It's armor plated! It only fell over because it's on a hinge!”
The captain's heart fell at those words. Courage turned to fear as he suddenly noticed that none of his men had yet returned from the lower decks. He opened his mouth to call for a retreat, but was silenced by the feel of cold steel against his throat. He turned his head, slowly and carefully, and saw the man who had hidden in the rafters above the door. His hair was long and grey, but he moved with a grace unusual for his age. He spoke with a dignified and cultured accent, gained from the years he had spent as a spice trader on the mainland.
“I am Captain Mordmorgan. Your men appear to be trespassing, a crime that bears serious penalties on the high seas. I do hope you and your crew know how to swim – it is two miles to the nearest island.”

Mordmorgan was a kind man, at least in comparison to others in his chosen profession – he left the pirates with enough barrels to stay afloat until land. He watched them recede into the mist for a moment, then turned to his first mate.
“How many were willing to swear off a life of crime and commit to penance?”
“Only four, captain, this was a rough lot we caught today.”
“All the better that they are off the seas, then. How is my ship?”
“The Stolen Thunder has a few dings on her, but nothing serious. We picked up more than enough scrap to repair her before we scuttled the pirates. That mast plating took a direct hit, but there's nary a scratch on it. How you talked the dwarves out of it I'll never know.”
“Trade secret, my friend, you know that. Were there any serious injuries among the crew?”
“One man took a nasty blow to his arm, but the doctor has him patched up just fine. Everyone else is ready to go.”
“Bring up the Malakim flag next – there's a fleet five days to the north heading for one of their colonies. We'll play the straggler and see who bites.”

The idea for that came to me when I was thinking about what would make a pirate good, since Falamar is already a gentleman pirate and he's only neutral. The answer: be a pirate who hunts down the evil pirates.

25Hour

May 31, 2009, 11:53 PM

If I could chime in... one thing I'd suggest changing from the original minor leaders mod was that they didn't get traits at a constant balance with the "regular" leaders. For example, the minor leaders for the Kuriotates and the Sidar were pretty much equal in strength, despite the fact that Cardith Lorda was Adaptive + 2 traits, and the Sidar normal leader was at roughly 1 trait (Industrious + Defender.) So, the Kuriotates minor leaders effectively started off two traits lower than normal before gaining a trait, while the Sidar minor leaders started off at roughly the same strength as their regular leader before gaining a trait.

It seems like the "normal" situation is for the minor leaders to start off 1 trait weaker than normal leaders, which seems pretty fair. Given this, I think balance could be achieved by, for example, giving the Kuriotates minor leaders 2 traits + Minor (vs. 2 traits + Adaptive), and the Sidar minor leaders 1 trait + Minor + 1 "disadvantage" trait. (so, effectively 0 traits vs. 1 trait.) (For example, you could have a Sidar Charismatic/Minor/Agnostic leader, or a Philosophical/Minor/Reclusive leader-- Reclusive would give -50% settler production, or something similar.)

Anyway, just a thought-- it was beginning to bug me, seeing so many of the leaders just get completely overshadowed by their comrades.

Guybrush!

Jun 01, 2009, 01:12 AM

The Grigori minor leaders are all angonistic, right?

far_wanderer

Jun 01, 2009, 01:16 AM

Valkrionn

Jun 01, 2009, 02:07 AM

I just played through the beginning of a game with Esirce, and I don't think you'll have to worry about him being overpowered. With your changes to the adventurer system that make all cities contribute collectively, Tolerant is quite nicely balanced by the inability to build any adventurer-spawning buildings in your captured cities.

EDIT

Technically, no. Agnostic is a Grigori civilization trait, so they have it no matter who is leading them.

Well, that's good. I was hoping it would work out like that, honestly. I think he'll be rather... interesting to play. :lol:

The Grigori minor leaders are all angonistic, right?

Already answered, but yes. Anyone leading the Grigori is agnostic as a civ trait.

If I could chime in... one thing I'd suggest changing from the original minor leaders mod was that they didn't get traits at a constant balance with the "regular" leaders. For example, the minor leaders for the Kuriotates and the Sidar were pretty much equal in strength, despite the fact that Cardith Lorda was Adaptive + 2 traits, and the Sidar normal leader was at roughly 1 trait (Industrious + Defender.) So, the Kuriotates minor leaders effectively started off two traits lower than normal before gaining a trait, while the Sidar minor leaders started off at roughly the same strength as their regular leader before gaining a trait.

It seems like the "normal" situation is for the minor leaders to start off 1 trait weaker than normal leaders, which seems pretty fair. Given this, I think balance could be achieved by, for example, giving the Kuriotates minor leaders 2 traits + Minor (vs. 2 traits + Adaptive), and the Sidar minor leaders 1 trait + Minor + 1 "disadvantage" trait. (so, effectively 0 traits vs. 1 trait.) (For example, you could have a Sidar Charismatic/Minor/Agnostic leader, or a Philosophical/Minor/Reclusive leader-- Reclusive would give -50% settler production, or something similar.)

Anyway, just a thought-- it was beginning to bug me, seeing so many of the leaders just get completely overshadowed by their comrades.

Hmm... Good point. I'll look at it. Honestly, so far I've done nothing but get it working. Which took hours because of the differences in the leaderheadfiles.... I hate that file. So very much, do I hate that file. :lol:

A suggested story for Mordmorgan:

The Elohim merchant vessel had been almost too easy to capture. The pirate vessel had snuck up on them silently in the mist, wrecking their mast with the first broadside before the merchants even knew they where in danger. Pirates grinned as they drew alongside and readied grappling hooks – the merchant crew screamed and ran into their cabins in senseless terror.
The captain came on board personally with the first wave. A woman had been spotted fleeing into the main cabin, and the captain liked to claim such prizes personally. His crew dispersed below decks to ferret out the fleeing merchant cowards that had abandoned their posts. The captain kicked down the door with a fearsome and bellowing laugh that he reserved for inspire terror in his prisoners. Stretched out on the desk of the main cabin was, indeed, a woman's dress, but it was empty. Just then a call came out from behind him.
“Captain! The mast!”
“What about it?” He bellowed.
“It's armor plated! It only fell over because it's on a hinge!”
The captain's heart fell at those words. Courage turned to fear as he suddenly noticed that none of his men had yet returned from the lower decks. He opened his mouth to call for a retreat, but was silenced by the feel of cold steel against his throat. He turned his head, slowly and carefully, and saw the man who had hidden in the rafters above the door. His hair was long and grey, but he moved with a grace unusual for his age. He spoke with a dignified and cultured accent, gained from the years he had spent as a spice trader on the mainland.
“I am Captain Mordmorgan. Your men appear to be trespassing, a crime that bears serious penalties on the high seas. I do hope you and your crew know how to swim – it is two miles to the nearest island.”

Mordmorgan was a kind man, at least in comparison to others in his chosen profession – he left the pirates with enough barrels to stay afloat until land. He watched them recede into the mist for a moment, then turned to his first mate.
“How many were willing to swear off a life of crime and commit to penance?”
“Only four, captain, this was a rough lot we caught today.”
“All the better that they are off the seas, then. How is my ship?”
“The Stolen Thunder has a few dings on her, but nothing serious. We picked up more than enough scrap to repair her before we scuttled the pirates. That mast plating took a direct hit, but there's nary a scratch on it. How you talked the dwarves out of it I'll never know.”
“Trade secret, my friend, you know that. Were there any serious injuries among the crew?”
“One man took a nasty blow to his arm, but the doctor has him patched up just fine. Everyone else is ready to go.”
“Bring up the Malakim flag next – there's a fleet five days to the north heading for one of their colonies. We'll play the straggler and see who bites.”

The idea for that came to me when I was thinking about what would make a pirate good, since Falamar is already a gentleman pirate and he's only neutral. The answer: be a pirate who hunts down the evil pirates.

That's awesome, it's going in. :goodjob:

If you could do it so they get priority on souls sharing their religion and/or team, it would be even better. The reason I like this concept is because it means that if someone is going crazy with Basium because all of your troops are becoming angels, you can summon your own counter-angel to keep your troops from going to the enemy. It always bothered me that Basium got such an incredible advantage from fighting good people.

Clearly we play in different ways. In all of my games, the Mercurians slaughter everything. Mercurians get absurd combat bonuses against most evil people, and absurd amounts of troops against good people. All the Infernals really get is immunity to Armageddon.

EDIT: You forgot to remove Barbarian from the Infernal minor leaders. Also, I have an idea for pedia text for Mordmorgan - I'll write and post it after I finish my current game.

Pretty much the way I'll do it, I think.With the Mercurians, souls will go to their allies, and for the Infernals, the civs they're at war with will be more likely to spawn manes for them.

My games, Mercurians only do well when I lead them. Otherwise, they stay huddled in their little corner, too afraid to go outside. :lol:

Thanks, I'll fix it.

far_wanderer

Jun 01, 2009, 02:38 AM

That's awesome, it's going in. :goodjob:

Yay! I'll try to write a few more if the inspiration strikes me.

My games, Mercurians only do well when I lead them. Otherwise, they stay huddled in their little corner, too afraid to go outside. :lol:

They do fine for me when I'm not leading them but am still allied with them. The only time I've ever seen an AI build the gate before me they were at peace with everyone, gave the Mercurians a landlocked city, and there was no empty space left on their continent, so it wasn't really a good test case.
I typically use the Mercurians as an end-game force combined with the Nexus. I march through enemy territory with my small elite army, capture a city, turn it over to the Mercurians, heal for a turn while they gate in a garrison, and then move on to the next city. They do pretty well under those circumstances - I typically see at least four angels in every city the turn after I hand it over, and I'm capturing cities about once every three turns by that point, so they do pretty well. One time the Avatar of Wrath spawned in the middle of their territory and then died the next turn, so they clearly are keeping a pretty good patrol force too.

Also, a little theoretical bug-hunting: Just how different are the Mercurian gates? Because it occurred to me that Basium's convert city spell requires a Mercurian gate, so if each Mercurian leader spawns a clone of Basium, like you did with the Infernals, they could potentially run around constantly stealing each others cities.

Valkrionn

Jun 01, 2009, 02:45 AM

Woops, need to make that only allowed once for each leader. :lol: Can do it by tieing the spell to an effect promo, and have casting the spell remove the promo... No more option to cast it.

Valkrionn

Jun 01, 2009, 04:17 AM

Damn lol. Tried to add Mordmorgan's new pedia text to the first post, and it puts me up over the 30000 character limit. :p Can't add to that one any longer.

Opera

Jun 01, 2009, 04:24 AM

Just add a link to their post :lol:

Vermicious Knid

Jun 01, 2009, 12:42 PM

far_wanderer

Jun 01, 2009, 01:20 PM

Vermicious Knid

Jun 01, 2009, 01:42 PM

I agree, but it's even more complicated that you said, because you also have to figure in synergies between traits and civilizations. For example: financial is better for Lanun leaders than for anyone else because they can work coast tiles from turn 1 without hurting their growth. Charismatic is better for the Sidar because something important happens to them at level 6. Arcane would be almost worthless for a Khazad leader.

Yup.

In a perfect world the minor leaders would all present the option of playing the civ a different way, rather than simply presenting a weakened version of one of their existing leaders. Avoiding a broken civ/trait combo right out of the gate would be good as well...although gaining one of those later with your minor leader seems to be fair play to me. :)

25Hour

Jun 01, 2009, 04:25 PM

I agree...but raw number of traits isn't the best way to balance. Some of the traits are clearly VERY strong (financial), while others are the opposite (ingenuity).

It almost feels like we need a point system to balance it out...although that would be tricky because sometimes the synergy between 2 traits is the problem, not the traits themselves.

Tough one.

Yeah, I guess my analysis was really more for a first approximation of balance-- I totally agree about the strength/synergies of traits being taken into account. :lol: My main point was that there needs to be a constant difference in strength between main leaders and minor leaders, however it's achieved.

And I definitely support giving each minor leader unique traits that show off different aspects of the civilization, like with Opportunistic-- although for now I'm just happy they're being integrated into FF. Many kudos be to Valkrionn! :D

------
EDIT:
Re: Duplicate leaders:
Don't cut them! Most could easily be fixed just by (for example) changing Casin Loveless to Charismatic, rather than Financial. Also, I'm working on a modmod to get as many minor leaders as I can unique traits tailored to their civilization, so the more I can work with, the better. :D

UNIT 666

Jun 01, 2009, 05:50 PM

I just gotta say, the Broken Compact aspect sounds awesome! I completely forgot about the Infernals and Mercurians when thinking about minor leaders, and the possibilities it opens up...

Valkrionn

Jun 01, 2009, 08:51 PM

A modmodmodmod, huh? :lol: Honestly that's my plan too, so feel to post any ideas you've got for it. ;)

And I'm glad you like the broken compact... The Infernals were coded by Notque, and I just adapted that code for the Mercurians. Can't take credit for much here yet :lol:

MagisterCultuum

Jun 02, 2009, 12:16 AM

... The Infernals were coded by Notque...

Actually, I'm pretty sure the code you reference was something I was using in one of the unreleased versions of my modmod for at least a month before posting it for Notque to borrow.

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 12:20 AM

Yes, yes it was... I'd forgotten about that, actually. I guess the mercurian code was adapted from your code then haha.

25Hour

Jun 02, 2009, 02:22 AM

A modmodmodmod, huh? :lol: Honestly that's my plan too, so feel to post any ideas you've got for it. ;)

Don't mind if I do! :lol:

So the first is for Tya Kiri, who seems to me the type to risk her own sanity, and that of others, in search of ever-greater magical prowess. In that spirit, I have made her Reckless-- which gives her Adepts Channeling 2 right out of the gate, but at the cost of a chance each turn that they turn on you. (I'm not actually sure what the exact number should be.) The adepts gain XP faster, however, due to their handling of such advanced rituals-- they gain 1 XP per turn until they reach 15, whereupon you must either give them proper training or else simply wait for them to go mad like any other adept.

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_UNREADY</Tag>
<English>Unready</English>
<French>Unready</French>
<German>Unready</German>
<Italian>Unready</Italian>
<Spanish>Unready</Spanish>
</TEXT>

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS</Tag>
<English>Reckless</English>
<French>Reckless</French>
<German>Reckless</German>
<Italian>Reckless</Italian>
<Spanish>Reckless</Spanish>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS_SHORT</Tag>
<English>Rec</English>
<French>Rec</French>
<German>Rec</German>
<Italian>Rec</Italian>
<Spanish>Rec</Spanish>
</TEXT>

<PromotionInfo> 
<Type>PROMOTION_UNREADY</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_UNREADY</Description>
<bMustMaintain>1</bMustMaintain>
<bNoXP>1</bNoXP>
<fFreeXPCap>15</fFreeXPCap>
<iPower>30</iPower>
<PrereqUnits>
<PrereqUnit>UNIT_ADEPT</PrereqUnit>
</PrereqUnits>
<UnitCombats>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
</UnitCombats>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Hero.dds</Button>
<iBetrayalChance>4</iBetrayalChance>
<iFreeXPPerTurn>1</iFreeXPPerTurn>
</PromotionInfo>
<TraitInfo>
<Type>TRAIT_RECKLESS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_RECKLESS_SHORT</ShortDescription>
<Help/>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
<bInsane>0</bInsane>
<bSelectable>1</bSelectable>
<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
<ExtraYieldThresholds/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges>
</CommerceChanges>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<FreePromotions>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_UNREADY</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_CHANNELING2</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
</FreePromotions>
<FreePromotionUnitCombats>
<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombats>
</TraitInfo>

The second is for Lorelei. Two words: skeleton navy.

<PromotionInfo>
<Type>PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</Description>
<Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
<TechPrereq>TECH_NEVER</TechPrereq>
<bAmphib>1</bAmphib>
<bRiver>1</bRiver>
<iMovesChange>1</iMovesChange>
<TerrainAttacks>
<TerrainAttack>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_OCEAN</TerrainType>
<iTerrainAttack>50</iTerrainAttack>
</TerrainAttack>
<TerrainAttack>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_COAST</TerrainType>
<iTerrainAttack>50</iTerrainAttack>
</TerrainAttack>
</TerrainAttacks>
<TerrainDefenses>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_OCEAN</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>50</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_COAST</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>50</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefenses>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Waterwalking.dds</Button>
<bWaterWalking>1</bWaterWalking>
<PromotionSummonPerk>PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</PromotionSummonPerk>
</PromotionInfo>

<TraitInfo>
<Type>TRAIT_HYDROMANCER</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER_SHORT</ShortDescription>
<Help/>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
<bInsane>0</bInsane>
<bSelectable>1</bSelectable>
<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
<ExtraYieldThresholds/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges>
</CommerceChanges>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<FreePromotions>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_WATER1</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
</FreePromotions>
<FreePromotionUnitCombats>
<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombats>
</TraitInfo>

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER</Tag>
<English>Hydromancer</English>
<French>Hydromancer</French>
<German>Hydromancer</German>
<Italian>Hydromancer</Italian>
<Spanish>Hydromancer</Spanish>
</TEXT>

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_HYDROMANCER_SHORT</Tag>
<English>Hyd</English>
<French>Hyd</French>
<German>Hyd</German>
<Italian>Hyd</Italian>
<Spanish>Hyd</Spanish>
</TEXT>

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_WATER_MASTERY</Tag>
<English>Water Mastery</English>
<French>Water Mastery</French>
<German>Water Mastery</German>
<Italian>Water Mastery</Italian>
<Spanish>Water Mastery</Spanish>
</TEXT>

Note the effective Mobility/Spell extension promotion. I did that for two reasons: mechanically, to give this trait some use starting inland (though the coast is naturally where it shines), and flavor-wise, because it seems to me that mages specializing in water must be tactically fluid and adaptive-- plus, a mage-navy only able to move 1 square per turn would take forever to get anywhere. (My preferred solution was to give them double movement speed on ocean or coast, but for some reason this appeared not to do anything in-game. Although I guess it could be fudged with an autoacquire water-only promotion granting +1 movement...)

This next one is fairly simple-- it's for a Kuriotate leader, and it's a quite powerful economic trait, since Cardith has Adaptive and two others. It's pretty much Financial for food (starting at 3 and working up), with a small gold penalty (due to the quashing of Mammon) and a happiness bonus attached. It pretty much means that you can grow your cities, dare I say it, even more gigantic with the Kuriotates than you can normally. Good times!

<TraitInfo>
<Type>TRAIT_EGALITARIAN</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_EGALITARIAN</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_EGALITARIAN_SHORT</ShortDescription>
<Help/>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>3</iHappiness>
<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
<bInsane>0</bInsane>
<bSelectable>1</bSelectable>
<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
<ExtraYieldThresholds>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>3</iExtraYieldThreshold>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
</ExtraYieldThresholds>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<CommerceModifiers>
<iCommerce>-10</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
</CommerceModifiers>
<FreePromotions/>
<FreePromotionUnitCombats/>
</TraitInfo>

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_EGALITARIAN</Tag>
<English>Egalitarian</English>
<French>Egalitarian</French>
<German>Egalitarian</German>
<Italian>Egalitarian</Italian>
<Spanish>Egalitarian</Spanish>
</TEXT>

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_EGALITARIAN_SHORT</Tag>
<English>Ega</English>
<French>Ega</French>
<German>Ega</German>
<Italian>Ega</Italian>
<Spanish>Ega</Spanish>
</TEXT>

Lastly (for now), the Ljosalfar lass-- can't remember her name-- gets extremely deadly archery units, with Light, Shock, and Woodsman promotions automatically. Because the day I hear the phrase "archers are overpowered in FfH" will be an interesting day indeed.

<TraitInfo>
<Type>TRAIT_AGILE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_AGILE</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_AGILE_SHORT</ShortDescription>
<Help/>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
<bInsane>0</bInsane>
<bSelectable>1</bSelectable>
<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
<ExtraYieldThresholds/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<FreePromotions>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_LIGHT</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_SHOCK1</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_WOODSMAN1</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
</FreePromotions>
<FreePromotionUnitCombats>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombats>
</TraitInfo>

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 02:31 AM

I love the first three... Particularly the second one. That would encourage a VERY different gameplay style. :lol: The fourth one I'm not sure about, although only because of balance reasons... I'll have to think about it. :crazyeye:

25Hour

Jun 02, 2009, 03:23 PM

Glad to hear you liked them! :D Yeah, you could be right about the Agile trait-- I admit that I'm a bit unclear as to how strong Ljosalfar archers actually are, being a mostly Clan/Doviello player, so I could easily have overshot. (See what I did there? Eh? Eh? :cool:).

Anyhow, I'll post more as I finish them!

25Hour

Jun 02, 2009, 03:39 PM

Yes, yes it does. The Mercs are underpowered compared to the Infernals, so I'm okay with that.

And I believe I answered the soul question in the last post... As it currently stands, the Angels will go to ALL mercs, and manes will go to all Infernals. So if there should be 2 manes, but all 7 infernals are in, 14 manes will spawn, 2 for each. Not sure atm whether to leave it, or make them go to a random civ rather than all civs.

Hmm... I rather like the idea of a purely demonic power struggle over the collected souls, so I definitely support choosing a random demonic faction to grant the Mane to (therefore introducing an incentive for Infernal players to go after the "competition.") I also think this will do a lot to diminish the crazy power of Infernals after they've got their first 50 pop city up and running, although this could also be easily done by limiting Infernal cities to a pop of about 25 or so-- big, but not "complete Nature's Revolt in 2 turns" big. But that's a different topic.

As for Mercurians, I definitely feel like you don't want multiple angel spawns per good death-- that'd make for crazy overpoweredness if you had more than one on a team, especially since the Mercurian Gate is pretty easy to build. (Which is to say, if you could build the first one before anyone else, chances are you could build the second and third before others reach the appropriate tech, and so be able to easily overpower other good civs.)

EDIT: Oh god, a triple post. *facepalm* My bad!

25Hour

Jun 02, 2009, 03:41 PM

whoops, double post. :P

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 03:57 PM

Haha, don't worry about it. :lol: I've done it before.

I think that's the way I'm going to go with the Infernals... The Mercs, I've got a few ideas on. I'm going to make the Gate buildable once by each TEAM, rather than player. One thing I've been thinking about it is making it force a team between any preexisting Mercurian factions... So if there's already a Merc team, and someone else summons a new merc, they're all forced onto one team. Could eventually unite all good civs, without making it so the same team is able to summon all of them.

Hawkwood

Jun 02, 2009, 04:14 PM

One thing I've been wondering about: What if you summon the "wrong" leader? What if you summoned Dauvum/Bertus/Ferthegis when you wanted Basium or you summoned Lethe/Ouzza/Meresin/etc. when you wanted Hyborem?

You won't get a second chance, since you can't summon another Infernal/Mercurian with the same civilization. So can you choose which leader you summon, or are you forced to restart/reload?

Opera

Jun 02, 2009, 04:21 PM

Why would you want to summon a particular leader?

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 04:26 PM

Atm it's random. I'm thinking of putting in a choice, but I'm not sure.

Edit @ Opera: Well, one reason would be because the heroes are different. Or at least, will be. :lol:

Hawkwood

Jun 02, 2009, 05:19 PM

There's also the different traits. I may for example decide I want Basium's traits rather than Ferthegis', or I may be interested in Bertus' Charismatic which I can't get otherwise.

Opera

Jun 02, 2009, 05:27 PM

@Valkrionn: You mean there will be a Bertus hero, a Dauvum hero, etc.?

Anyway, you could launch an event that would let you choose the leader you want to summon.

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 05:29 PM

Yes, yes I do. Don't want multiple Basiums. :lol: There already are for the Infernals, although they're clones... I'm about to change them all. Now that I've added the first three of those traits. :goodjob:

And the event is the basic idea if I decide to do it. It'll be interesting to figure out how to limit an option if the leader already exists though.

deadliver

Jun 02, 2009, 05:56 PM

MagisterCultuum

Jun 02, 2009, 05:58 PM

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to consolidate the <PythonPostCombatLost> defines for units' whose death cost you traits, especially if all your new Mercurian/Infernal leaders fall in this category. I've been meaning to change them all to use this in my version for a while, but haven't gotten around to it.

def postCombatLeaderUnit(pCaster, pOpponent, sLeaderName, sTrophyName):
if not pCaster.isImmortal():
iPlayer = pCaster.getOwner()
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
if pPlayer.getLeaderType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString(sLeaderName):
for iTrait in range(gc.getNumTraitInfos()):
if iTrait != gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_FALLOW'):
if pPlayer.hasTrait(iTrait):
CyMessageControl().sendApplyEvent(5013, EventContextTypes.EVENTCONTEXT_ALL, (iPlayer,iTrait,False))
pOppPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pOpponent.getOwner())
if pOppPlayer.isHuman():
if sTrophyName != -1:
if not CyGame().isHasTrophy(t):
CyGame().changeTrophyValue(t, 1)

This could significantly reduce the size of CvSpellInterface.py, and it stops you from loosing your traits if you somehow capture another leader's leader unit and then loose it.

Obviously, this would mean changing <PythonPostCombatLost>postCombatBasium(pCaster,pOpponent)</PythonPostCombatLost> to <PythonPostCombatLost>postCombatBasium(pCaster,pOpponent, 'LEADER_BASIUM',"TROPHY_DEFEATED_BASIUM")</PythonPostCombatLost>, and so on for the other units.

Edit: Oh, I just remembered this is FF so you'll probably want to consolidate them through a <PythonOnDeath> call instead, or maybe consolidate all the trophies into one ,PythonPostCombatLost> call and all the trait losses into one <PythonOnDeath>.

If you move the Infernal/Mercurian spawning to an event, then limiting it based on what leaders are in the game should be easy. Each option would just have a different <PythonCanDo> to check to see if the unit has been in the game, each like this:
def canDoSummonHyborem(argsList):
iEvent = argsList[0]
kTriggeredData = argsList[1]

if CyGame().isLeaderEverActive(gc.getInfoTypeForStrin g('LEADER_HYBOREM')):
return false
return true

The actual creation of the Infernal/Mercurian civ under the right leader summoning would be moved to a <PythonCallback> for each option, with CvEventManager only being used to trigger the event.

xienwolf

Jun 02, 2009, 06:14 PM

Just remember to use (send/on)ModNetMessage if you create an event to govern your choices so you can remain compatible with multiplayer.

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 07:26 PM

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to consolidate the <PythonPostCombatLost> defines for units' whose death cost you traits, especially if all your new Mercurian/Infernal leaders fall in this category. I've been meaning to change them all to use this in my version for a while, but haven't gotten around to it.

def postCombatLeaderUnit(pCaster, pOpponent, sLeaderName, sTrophyName):
if not pCaster.isImmortal():
iPlayer = pCaster.getOwner()
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
if pPlayer.getLeaderType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString(sLeaderName):
for iTrait in range(gc.getNumTraitInfos()):
if iTrait != gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_FALLOW'):
if pPlayer.hasTrait(iTrait):
CyMessageControl().sendApplyEvent(5013, EventContextTypes.EVENTCONTEXT_ALL, (iPlayer,iTrait,False))
pOppPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pOpponent.getOwner())
if pOppPlayer.isHuman():
if sTrophyName != -1:
if not CyGame().isHasTrophy(t):
CyGame().changeTrophyValue(t, 1)

This could significantly reduce the size of CvSpellInterface.py, and it stops you from loosing your traits if you somehow capture another leader's leader unit and then loose it.

Obviously, this would mean changing <PythonPostCombatLost>postCombatBasium(pCaster,pOpponent)</PythonPostCombatLost> to <PythonPostCombatLost>postCombatBasium(pCaster,pOpponent, 'LEADER_BASIUM',"TROPHY_DEFEATED_BASIUM")</PythonPostCombatLost>, and so on for the other units.

Edit: Oh, I just remembered this is FF so you'll probably want to consolidate them through a <PythonOnDeath> call instead, or maybe consolidate all the trophies into one ,PythonPostCombatLost> call and all the trait losses into one <PythonOnDeath>.

Yeah, PythonOnDeath would probably be better. I've already thought about that. :goodjob:

If you move the Infernal/Mercurian spawning to an event, then limiting it based on what leaders are in the game should be easy. Each option would just have a different <PythonCanDo> to check to see if the unit has been in the game, each like this:
def canDoSummonHyborem(argsList):
iEvent = argsList[0]
kTriggeredData = argsList[1]

if CyGame().isLeaderEverActive(gc.getInfoTypeForStrin g('LEADER_HYBOREM')):
return false
return true
The actual creation of the Infernal/Mercurian civ under the right leader summoning would be moved to a <PythonCallback> for each option, with CvEventManager only being used to trigger the event.

And that's about what I thought. I've barely touched events, so I wasn't sure if they had a python callback or not. It'll be easier than I thought, then.

Just remember to use (send/on)ModNetMessage if you create an event to govern your choices so you can remain compatible with multiplayer.

Haha, unfortunately I have no idea what you mean here. Care to elaborate? :p

xienwolf

Jun 02, 2009, 07:37 PM

Unfortunately most people don't understand those functions too well. About the best I can say is to look in python for
sendModNetMessage

, and also look at

def onModNetMessage

It is a function that sends 5 integer values to all other players in an MP game, and the only way to notify them of decisions that you make which aren't part of the normal notification process. Most events are fairly safe, so you can try going without it first as long as you ONLY use the Event system to run the entire selection process. But if you slip in any fancy python work to make life easier on yourself for initial coding, you make it hell for yourself for the sync portion.

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 07:39 PM

I'm assuming that 'fancy python' would include a callback to check a leaders already been in game?

deadliver

Jun 02, 2009, 07:54 PM

Hey so if I get the gist of this thread correctly, these minor leaders may be providing new traits?

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 08:14 PM

What do you mean by providing new traits?

Updated the second post to show the new traits... Hydromancer and Reckless for the Amurites, and Egalitarian for the Kuriotates. The Kurios have a nice range of leaders now... Protector, granting amazing city defenders for all of your settlements, Raiders, which is a very different gameplay style for them, and Egalitarian, letting them grow larger and faster. :goodjob: 25hour did a good job with them. :lol:

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 08:21 PM

Tarquelne

Jun 02, 2009, 09:15 PM

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 09:20 PM

Posting this to get opinions. I haven't actually played the scenarios involving the Infernal leaders, so I'm not sure what type of unit to make them... I'm mostly going with what the leader looks like/what's available.

Working list for the Infernal/Mercurian heroes:

Infernals:

Judecca - Death Knight. Defaulted to this, couldn't think of anything.
Duke Sallos - Balor. He just looks like one to me. :lol:
Ouzza - Ira. Again, looks like one.
Meresin - Lich/Wraith. First thought was a wraith, but a lich is more powerful. Maybe just use the wraith art, but base it off a lich?
Statius - Eater of Dreams? He looks like a caster, and this is the most demonic aside from a lich. All that's left, really. :lol:
Lethe - Succubus. Only female demon, basically.

Mercurians:

Dauvum - Seraph. Seems to match the leader head pretty well.
Bertus - Angel of Death.
Ferthegis - Herald/Ophanim/Valkyrie. Haven't decided.

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 09:23 PM

For reasons of "story", mechanics, and convenience I think it'd be better to keep Korinna as a Major Leader rather than Minor. No really strong, reason, though.

The GCouncil leaders are Minor leader possibilities.

Alcinus - Reckless. (Insane?) Evil or Neutral. (Maybe change it randomly?)
Themoch - Philosophical?. Neutral.
Pelemoc - Is there a Lying, Manipulative Bastard trait? Neutral, maybe Evil.
Melante - Charismatic, maybe Tolerant. Neutral, maybe Good.

Themoch is a retering sort. It'd be neat-and-tidy to go with Melante as Good, then Pelemoc and Alcinus as Neutral and Evil. Or Evil and Neutral.

Other suggestions:
A "Tolerant" leader representing the Scion's nice side. Good.

There's a Scion military leader who invented Blackblood arrows back before the Age of Ice. Not a nice person. An archer who's into cruelty, killing, torture, etc. The sort who'd be right at home among the Svart. Evil.

A Doomgiver. Neutral.

Main reason I don't want to make her minor, myself. I like the ideas here though... Honestly, I'm aiming to give each leader either a trait that would be interesting for their civ, or a new trait that reflects the civs strong points. So I'd probably add new traits... Although the reckless trait for Tya Kiri would fit Alcinus as well. A tolerant scion leader is rather scary... Might be worth adding. :lol: Do you have any links to where you found the original art for the civ?

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 10:56 PM

Went through all the minor leaders, picked out those that have duplicate traits and came up with a few ideas. This is already in post 5, but unless I put it in a new post noone will notice it. :lol:

Duplicate Leaders/Trait Ideas:

Tethira - Bannor - ?
Mahon the Butcher - Calabim - ?
Hafgan the Purger - Clan - Razed Earth
Thessalonica - Elohim - Demon Slaying for all Melee
Captain Uldanor - Hippus - ? Something to change focus from mounted?
Athel Revas - Khazad - Slaver. +15% chance to capture slaves, captured cities lose extra pop but spawn one slave per 2 pop.
Reorx Veinhunter - Khazad - ?
Casin - Lanun - Lanun - Egalitarian? Rather scary. :eek:
Mordmorgan - Lanun - HN, +2 Defense for all Naval units
Eldarwen - Ljosalfar - ?
Gimil - Luchuirp - ?
Kane - Malakim - ? Desert Stealth?
Malchavic - Sheaim - Prophecy Mark for all units?

Some of these I'm very unsure about (Malchavic, Casin), others just fit, like Mordmorgan's and Athel's. Much easier to do when you have a pedia entry to work from. :lol: For Hafgan, I was thinking a Razed Earth ability... Cannot capture cities, auto-raze improvements, etc, but gain combat 1 and shock. Sounds fun. :p

Korias

Jun 02, 2009, 11:34 PM

Personally, I'd give Eldarwen Alcarin Egalitarian (Hmm... GoN+FoL+Egl=OP?), Tethira could have something to improve her military (I believe that she's a general in the Bannor Army), Casin might be able to have Merchant, and Kane should have a variant of Raiders/Horselord that gives bonus mobility, as from what I've seen in his 'pedia entry. But I'm not exactly sure whether implementing these might make already powerful civs TOO overpowered, as with Ljosalfar Egalitarians, or Casin's financial powerhouse (Massive Trade Route economy).

Valkrionn

Jun 02, 2009, 11:57 PM

That's my main problem finding them traits... They're strong civs, and it's difficult to come up with something that doesn't overpower them.

xienwolf

Jun 03, 2009, 12:25 AM

Do things that are just strange then.

Wanderlust: Whenever a cottage/village/town upgrades, it moves to a random adjacent tile.

Bondsman: Any player currently in a war which you are not involved in can cast a spell which costs them (and gives to you) 50 gold per city you own and forces you to declare war on all their enemies. Any player at war with you can cast a spell which grants you 75 gold per city you own that forces you to declare peace.

Agoraphobia: All of your units auto-acquire a Blindness promotion upon leaving your (or your teamates) territory, except workers.

Hermit: None of your units can share the same tile

Tea Lover: Every 5th turn you are not allowed to do anything at all. Cities are in anarchy condition and units are held. (slightly better would be that the timer is on a per-unit/per-city basis, every 5th turn since created. Then each turn you still get to do something, but on average 20% of your civ is unavailable)

Child-friendly Entertainer: All of your units have a CityBonus type of promotion which grants happiness in nearby cities not under your control, but also reduces diplomatic relations with that civilization.

Eccentric: Every unit you produce has an even chance of being any UU (or the basic unit) of that unitclass instead of what you tried to actually build.

Addled: Every unit you produce has a 10% chance of instead being a chicken.

Instructor: All your units start with 1 free promotion (like Adepts, you can choose 1 promotion, or in the case OF adepts, 1 extra free promotion)

Contractor: 500% bonus to unit production, but all units are created with a 20 turn duration.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 12:39 AM

deadliver

Jun 03, 2009, 12:39 AM

dyx

Jun 03, 2009, 01:55 AM

Going with the name, Reorx Veinhunter could have an increased chance for mines popping resources. Or a commerce bonus for mines or something like that.
I don't like Malchavic's trait, the AC would go up in no time.
Some of these traits actually seem more like half-traits similar to ingenuity. Just giving Thessalonica's units the Demon Slaying promotion is similar to having no trait at all for most of the time. Maybe calling it "holy warriors" or something around these lines and also the ability for units to get +1 holy damage from a certain building (so you wouldn't have overpowered early units).
For Tethira maybe something called "zeal" which gives units the ability to blitz for one movement after they killed an enemy unit.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 02:27 AM

Got Instructor to work... Had to use a bit of python, but a very small bit because the call was already there in onunitbuilt. :goodjob: Tethira now recieves one free promotion per unit, which helps with the general vibe... All though I'm still not sure if Tethira is male or female. I'd think female from the name, but Notque had bfemale set to 0, so I'm not sure. :lol:

far_wanderer

Jun 03, 2009, 02:37 AM

WarKirby

Jun 03, 2009, 02:40 AM

Also, how about this for a D'teshi minor leader? As Cyther suggested, this would be an Angel of Death sent by Laroth to help D'tesh... D'tesh gets the bodies, Laroth gets the souls. :lol:

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Angel_Of_Death_by_aaillustrations.jpg

NO

Not a minor leader.

Use this pic for Dtesh himself. It's perfect.
use the other one you picked for a minor leader, instead.

I was going to mention before you already picked, that a Dtesh picture should show him as the Lich he is. This is perfect.

Please use this as Dtesh's leaderhead.

WarKirby

Jun 03, 2009, 02:44 AM

Alcinus - Reckless. (Insane?) Evil or Neutral. (Maybe change it randomly?)
Themoch - Philosophical?. Neutral.
Pelemoc - Is there a Lying, Manipulative Bastard trait? Neutral, maybe Evil.
Melante - Charismatic, maybe Tolerant. Neutral, maybe Good.

I like this idea.

Alcinus:
Arcane, Summoner, Insane (Neutral)

Themoch:
Expansive, Aggressive ? (Neutral)

Pelemoc:
Financial, Charismatic (Neutral)

Melante:
Organised, Charismatic, Ingenuity (Good)

WarKirby

Jun 03, 2009, 02:46 AM

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 02:50 AM

Some suggestions:
Mahon - Tyrant: No unhappiness, +5 unhealth in all cities. It has the potential for being powerful late-game, balanced by stunted growth in the early game and no production boost from Governor's Mansions.
Kane - Barbarian/Warlord
Gimil - Craftmaster: Golems gain Mobility 1
Reorx Vienhunter - Mining Expert: +1 hammer on all tiles producing 2 or more.
Thessalonica - Begins play with a Great Sage.
Tethria - Extremist: -4 diplomatic penalty with everyone, double Demagog spawn rate.

Mahon - I like it. :goodjob: Could make the farm cities AMAZING if you get the right traits/resources, but at the cost of a slower early game... Very nice.
Kane - Warlord could fit... I've been trying to come up with a trait that would help show that the capital is the only important city but I can't come up with anything. :lol:
Gimil - I was thinking something along those lines, probably have to use python.
Reorx - Perfect. :goodjob:
Thessalonica - This one I don't like... Doesn't really seem to fit with the Elohim.
Tethira - I like it, although I prefer Instructor... Think I'll roll the diplo penalty into it though. Against evil/neutral?

NO

Not a minor leader.

Use this pic for Dtesh himself. It's perfect.
use the other one you picked for a minor leader, instead.

I was going to mention before you already picked, that a Dtesh picture should show him as the Lich he is. This is perfect.

Please use this as Dtesh's leaderhead.

Honestly, I've been thinking the same thing after finding it. :lol:

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 02:52 AM

I like this idea.

Alcinus:
Arcane, Summoner, Insane (Neutral)

Themoch:
Expansive, Aggressive ? (Neutral)

Pelemoc:
Financial, Charismatic (Neutral)

Melante:
Organised, Charismatic, Ingenuity (Good)

Got to limit them to one trait, two tops, with Minor. Supposed to be Minor leaders after all. :lol: All in all though, I like it. Could see all of them as minors.

Some of these would be..... unusual.

I'd say Hermit, Tea Lover, Agoraphobia, and Wanderlust, would all be amusing, but rather crippling in practice. And not good for much more than novelty value. Instructor would be quite a powerful trait though.

Yeah, those four would be very hard to use.

far_wanderer

Jun 03, 2009, 03:18 AM

Mahon - I like it. :goodjob: Could make the farm cities AMAZING if you get the right traits/resources, but at the cost of a slower early game... Very nice.
Kane - Warlord could fit... I've been trying to come up with a trait that would help show that the capital is the only important city but I can't come up with anything. :lol:
Gimil - I was thinking something along those lines, probably have to use python.
Reorx - Perfect. :goodjob:
Thessalonica - This one I don't like... Doesn't really seem to fit with the Elohim.
Tethira - I like it, although I prefer Instructor... Think I'll roll the diplo penalty into it though. Against evil/neutral?
Kane - Hmm, I like that concept of the all-important capitol. I'll brainstorm a bit overnight and see if I can come up with anything.
Reorx - I can't take full credit, I had a vague memory of Orbis doing something like this with Industrious.
Thessalonica - The extent of my knowledge of her is that she is a Great Sage, so I was figuring it might be a good way to represent scholarly enlightenment.
Tethira - Yeah, you made your post about Instructor while I was writing. I like it better, too. Extremist mainly came out of the earlier discussions about the Bannor being intolerant warmongers - I figured if that was an impression people held, it might be good to have a leader that actually supports it. I was actually thinking of the penalty being against everyone, representing people's distrust of your tendency to crusade at the drop of a hat.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 03:25 AM

Kane - Hmm, I like that concept of the all-important capitol. I'll brainstorm a bit overnight and see if I can come up with anything.
Reorx - I can't take full credit, I had a vague memory of Orbis doing something like this with Industrious.
Thessalonica - The extent of my knowledge of her is that she is a Great Sage, so I was figuring it might be a good way to represent scholarly enlightenment.
Tethira - Yeah, you made your post about Instructor while I was writing. I like it better, too. Extremist mainly came out of the earlier discussions about the Bannor being intolerant warmongers - I figured if that was an impression people held, it might be good to have a leader that actually supports it. I was actually thinking of the penalty being against everyone, representing people's distrust of your tendency to crusade at the drop of a hat.

Yeah, the capital thing just seems to fit with Kane's description, and the image I have in my head... I just can't for the life of me think of a way to make it a trait. :lol:

I did not know that Thessalonica, but it's still not something I really like... Seems too weak, and yet too strong all at the same time. :lol:

I'm rolling the diplopenalties into Tethira as a leader... Maybe a penalty towards everyone, but a larger bonus for following the same religion? That way you'd end up with a crusade on your hands unless the two of you are following the same religion, regardless of alignment.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 04:04 AM

Slaver added, and Tethira has been made more... More like Isabella of Spain. :lol:

Opera

Jun 03, 2009, 05:04 AM

Interesting traits idea... I like Instructor and Contractor :)

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 11:14 AM

For Instructor, just put this in def onunitbuilt :goodjob:
if pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_IN STRUCTOR')):
unit.changeFreePromotionPick(iFreeProm + 1)

Opera

Jun 03, 2009, 11:25 AM

What's iFreeProm?

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 11:31 AM

It's a variable that's already defined, or at least is in FF.

iFreeProm = unit.getFreePromotionPick()

Opera

Jun 03, 2009, 11:33 AM

Okay, will check that.
Thank you very much, I wouldn't have known how to do that :D

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 11:35 AM

haha Neither did I. Was amazed when it was as easy as it was. :lol: It will only apply to built units, so your starting units don't get it... But I'm fine with that.

Opera

Jun 03, 2009, 11:45 AM

Yeah, fine with that too. However, I might add a check... Don't if I will let Naval and Siege units have the promo. I know that there is people using these but... I don't know, doesn't feel like they should have it.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 11:49 AM

Probably not a bad idea, there....

MagisterCultuum

Jun 03, 2009, 11:57 AM

Opera

Jun 03, 2009, 11:58 AM

Well, I'm bad-idea-proof.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 12:10 PM

You know, you could put it in def onUnitCreated instead of def onUnitBuilt to make it apply to your initial units (as well as summons, mercenaries, unit you get from events, etc) too if you wish. Naturally, you could add more if to limit it to living units without a duration or something like that if you wish.

I know. Decided not to, because the trait is Instructor. Should require actual training to get the benefit.

Well, I'm bad-idea-proof.

Here's the code with a naval/siege block.

if pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_IN STRUCTOR')):
iSiege = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE')
iNaval = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL')
if unit.getUnitCombatType() != iSiege and unit.getUnitCombatType() != iNaval:
unit.changeFreePromotionPick(iFreeProm + 1)

Opera

Jun 03, 2009, 12:21 PM

Here's the code with a naval/siege block.

if pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_IN STRUCTOR')):
iSiege = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE')
iNaval = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL')
if unit.getUnitCombatType() != iSiege and unit.getUnitCombatType() != iNaval:
unit.changeFreePromotionPick(iFreeProm + 1)Thanks!
(I'm not bad-idea-proof, by the way... wanted to clarify that I was kidding; I'm always unsure, due to me not getting every nuance in English...)

Vermicious Knid

Jun 03, 2009, 02:01 PM

Yeah, the capital thing just seems to fit with Kane's description, and the image I have in my head... I just can't for the life of me think of a way to make it a trait. :lol:

Can you give him a unique version of the palace that is more powerful but creates a free building in every other city that is actually a nuisance?

The other thought would be sticking him with a unique civicoption that accomplishes what you want...or start him in God King and make him unable to change.

Unrelated thought:

How about Archeron and/or Orthus as minor leaders for the Clan? You'd have to block the AI building your leader and you could add the leader as a buildable hero that takes his traits with him if he dies.

Orthus - warlord/barbarian?

Archeron - Financial/barbarian? Spawns held and with horde, just like normal. Have a VERY late spell that breaks the hold.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 02:08 PM

Can you give him a unique version of the palace that is more powerful but creates a free building in every other city that is actually a nuisance?

The other thought would be sticking him with a unique civicoption that accomplishes what you want...or start him in God King and make him unable to change.

Unrelated thought:

How about Archeron and/or Orthus as minor leaders for the Clan? You'd have to block the AI building your leader and you could add the leader as a buildable hero that takes his traits with him if he dies.

Orthus - warlord/barbarian?

Archeron - Financial/barbarian? Spawns held and with horde, just like normal. Have a VERY late spell that breaks the hold.

Buildings are about the only thing I can think of myself... Already had to do something like that for Tyrant, so it can be done pretty simply. I don't want to give him a civic... Seems a bit overboard. :lol:

Acheron and Orthus are barbarians, I don't think they'd lead the Clan.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 03, 2009, 02:14 PM

Buildings are about the only thing I can think of myself... Already had to do something like that for Tyrant, so it can be done pretty simply. I don't want to give him a civic... Seems a bit overboard. :lol:

Acheron and Orthus are barbarians, I don't think they'd lead the Clan.

I dunno...Orthus is just another Orc with a very special axe. :lol:

The Archeron strategy sounded particularly fun to me. Cranking out enchanted weapon orcs from a mostly invulnerable capital...maybe a bit overpowered. Would have to give the big A a negative trait to balance. Greedy? (extra maintenance from distant cities).

far_wanderer

Jun 03, 2009, 02:25 PM

A more extreme idea for Kane: Give him Sprawling, and set the city limit to one (that might involve making a second sprawling trait, I'm not sure). Then make his settlements spawn warriors and scouts occasionally. So you get a single super-capitol, and a bunch of fairly worthless outposts that send a steady stream of recruits to the warlord for his army.

Whichever idea you go with, it might almost be worthwhile to make a new civ for Kane. The Malakim already have a lot that doesn't really fit an evil warlord, like Lightbringers, Teutorix, and their world spell. At the very least, make Lightbringers and Teutorix require Good or Neutral alignment, and create some evil counterparts.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 02:30 PM

I dunno...Orthus is just another Orc with a very special axe. :lol:

The Archeron strategy sounded particularly fun to me. Cranking out enchanted weapon orcs from a mostly invulnerable capital...maybe a bit overpowered. Would have to give the big A a negative trait to balance. Greedy? (extra maintenance from distant cities).

I believe I read somewhere that Orthus was an orc who refused to join the clan... could be mistaken though.

A more extreme idea for Kane: Give him Sprawling, and set the city limit to one (that might involve making a second sprawling trait, I'm not sure). Then make his settlements spawn warriors and scouts occasionally. So you get a single super-capitol, and a bunch of fairly worthless outposts that send a steady stream of recruits to the warlord for his army.

Whichever idea you go with, it might almost be worthwhile to make a new civ for Kane. The Malakim already have a lot that doesn't really fit an evil warlord, like Lightbringers, Teutorix, and their world spell. At the very least, make Lightbringers and Teutorix require Good or Neutral alignment, and create some evil counterparts.

That would be rather interesting, but I think too difficult to play.

I doubt I'll make him a new civ, but I think the Dervish should be tied to alignment, as well as the lightbringer. Teutorix and the worldspell maybe, but that's quite a bit more work. :lol: And Kane is Neutral, so it would be Good for Varn and Neutral for Kane and Decius.

xienwolf

Jun 03, 2009, 02:35 PM

Hrm?....

changeFreePromotionPick would add to what already exists I imagine. Thus as you wrote it one would expect to get 1 more than double the free promotions already available for the unit. Did you test with an adept?

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 02:39 PM

I did not, but I will now haha. If not changeFreePromotionPick, what would I use? setFreePromotionPick? Didn't actually check for anything else after I saw the first tag. :lol:

xienwolf

Jun 03, 2009, 02:42 PM

Just changefreepromotionpick(1) would add 1 to however many they are already allowed.

Tarquelne

Jun 03, 2009, 02:56 PM

Do you have any links to where you found the original art for the civ?

Mostly (maybe wholly) fantasygallery.net and deviantART. (Melante is "Queen of Air and Darkness" from deviantART.)

far_wanderer

Jun 03, 2009, 03:20 PM

I believe I read somewhere that Orthus was an orc who refused to join the clan... could be mistaken though.

There's a hint of it in Rantine's civilopedia entry. Basically, as hard as it seems, Jonas and Rantine are the civilized, honorable, and cultured ones. Orthus just wants to kill things a lot. Although I'm not sure how much the civilopedia should matter in this case, as according to Capria's entry Orthus is already dead :).

I doubt I'll make him a new civ, but I think the Dervish should be tied to alignment, as well as the lightbringer. Teutorix and the worldspell maybe, but that's quite a bit more work. :lol: And Kane is Neutral, so it would be Good for Varn and Neutral for Kane and Decius.
I had not noticed Kane was neutral. That seems a bit odd given his civilopedia entry. I mainly suggested a Teutorix change because Kane doesn't really sound like an Overcouncil kind of guy.

MagisterCultuum

Jun 03, 2009, 04:14 PM

Rantine and Orthus are old rivals who hate each other with a passion. Jonas doesn't really care for either of them, but I think he likes Orthus slightly less.

Orthus's Axe was hafted to what was once the holy scepter of the High Priestess of Bhall, which is why it deals Fire damage. I get the impression that Orthus stole the scepter from its rightful owners, probably killing them in the process. Given his visions from Bhall, I like to think that Rantine is a direct descendant of the high priestly line, and that as a small child he probably saw Orthus massacre his entire family so as to steal that scepter. He has probably spent his entire adult life trying to avenge their deaths and get Orthus's axe so that he can restore the scepter to its rightful place in the hands of the guardians of the eternal flame.

The Clan of Embers is made of the orcs who have remained wholly devoted to Bhall, while the Barbarian orcs are descended from those who were loyal to Bhall but many of them have lost their faith. I tend to think that Orthus is a non-religious man who frequently blasphemes the name of Bhall.

Capria's entry shows Orthus being stabbed, but it never says he died. Kael has stated that he recovered from these wounds.

If you read his pedia entry, you'll see that Jonas has not always had much respect for Bhall and her preists. He may very well have sided with Orthus in his youth, but after he murdered a priestess of Bhall his goddess awakened and demanded he repent and become her first high priest. I believe that actual priestly roles had been reserved for females, although their male relatives would probably assist in the temple too. It is quite possible that the girl he murdered in this entry was a relative of Rantine, so Rantine has witnessed both Orthus and Jonas slay his family.

I suspect that Rantine is among the very few Orcs who is fluent in the noble ancient orcish tongue known only to the priesthood and a few shamen. This is considered a beautiful language even by humans, not like the cacophony of common orcish. Most orcs probably don't even have vocal chords capable of uttering it. This tongue is probably identical to that which the Bannor priests and nobles spoke before the fall, and more closely related to modern Bannor than to common Orcish. However, the harsh realities of hell made the Bannor tongue become much more terse as it was used mostly for barking orders. Old Orcish/Bannor would be far more poetic, best suited for passionate love songs, epics, and emotionally resonant religious hymns. It may sound different from Orcish lips, but it would surely be comprehensible to the Bannor who emerged from hell and would be useful in diplomacy between the Clan and Bannor.

Once the Bannor had escaped Orthus and reorganized (probably recruiting the aid of lesser human tribes) they became a significant threat to the Clan. Rantine convinced Jonas that they were better off making peace with the Bannor than fighting them, so that they could focus on consolidating power among their fellow orcs. The Bannor agreed to a ceasefire and the Clan sent their emissaries to negotiate, but they were betrayed. Orthus has learned of Rantine's plan and decided to ruin it by stepping up his raids on the Bannor after the ceasefire was announced, and by flying the Clan banner when he did so. He massacred some Bannor settlements, and the Bannor believed that Jonas had betrayed them. As such, they in turn killed all those sent to negotiate the treaty (who were probably notable members of the priestly caste, as Old Orcish would be the best language for this negotiation), and stepped up their war on the Clan to a higher level than before. Jonas was furious at Rantine for Claiming the pink-skins could be trusted, and at him self for agreeing. He banished Rantine, and the more civilized orc did not set foot in Clan lands again until he returned with Sheelba. (Jonas didn't want to accept him back then either, but I believe both Jonas and Rantine has received visions from Bhall that it was her will.)

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 08:30 PM

far_wanderer

Jun 03, 2009, 08:43 PM

Added Thanatos of the D'tesh... Treacherous/Minor. Might change it to be death damage rather than poison, but either way it will be a recon leader rather than arcane. Don't see much point making a new trait either, when this one accomplishes it perfectly. A different name might be nice though.... It's the Greek personification of Death. Kind of like our grim reaper.
I see no problem leaving it as poison - the crippling weakness of the D'Tesh so far is their inability to fight things that are resistant to death damage. On the other hand, Treacherous itself could use a different promotion so that you could stack it with the actual poisoned blade spell.
Now that you have two leaders, you could do something like with the Risen Emperor and Korrina: Allow only Thanatos to build the Lord D'Tesh hero, and make a Thanatos hero for D'Tesh to build.

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 08:47 PM

Yeah, should probably add a separate promotion, if just to make nature 1 useful.

As for the heroes, it would actually be like with the Infernals/Mercurians... Each leader can build himself.

25Hour

Jun 03, 2009, 09:36 PM

A few more ideas! :D

Hmm... for Hafgan, what about instead of granting all units Shock/Combat I, you could make goblins a bit more than a nuisance by allowing them (but not other recon units) to use metal weapons. And then, grant +1 poison strength at the Poisons tech. It'd mean that you'd have pretty much a neverending supply of not-altogether-worthless goblins to hurl at the enemy! Not near so strong as regular orcs, but you can pump them out at a ridiculous rate. Perhaps call it "Horde." Alternatively (or in addition, since Goblins still won't be very strong), give them Financial for hammers, allowing an even greater quantity of units to be brought to bear.

For Kane, I'd think about Decadent-- which would grant +50% (!) gold, but would also grant the Ostentatious promotion to all units, which causes them to give +10 hammers to any unit that kills them (commerce would be better, but I'm not sure it could be done with the current XML setup.) So you'd be more powerful economically, but also a much more tempting target for invaders. (Could be "understood" by the AI just as a diplomatic penalty.)

For Emma, how about Shamanistic? Grants Spirit Guide to all animal units, and maybe turns them into Beasts.

For Mahon the Butcher, give him Bloodthirsty-- grants a building that gives -80% unhappiness from rushing buildings, plus a promotion to all units granting +5 food from each combat. You'd really have no end to potential uses for the surplus population... :devil:

Veinhunter could have a promotion, granted to all units, that gives the ability to Move Impassible. Plus, an Autoacquire/Mustmaintain that grants stealth in mountains. (Call it "underminer." :D)

I was also thinking that Furia the Mad could have Adaptive/Aggressive, but also be Psychotic, which causes non-Hero, non-Arcane units in enemy territory to randomly go Enraged in enemy territory.

Perhaps a trait for Riuros of the Illians, to be combined with Barbarian: Allow him to build Frostling units, but these units would come with a promotion with a 100% betrayal chance (so they'd immediately go barbarian.) An easy way to harass the neighbors! You could sweeten the deal by making the frostlings half-off (or 2/3 off) what a normal unit of that strength would cost.

Omniscient: Allows you to build a building that grants units in the city +9 to sight range; grants all units Sentry.

Anyway, just a few more thoughts. :D

EDIT

Malchavic:
Conjuror: Grants "strength of the void" to all units that come out of Planar Gates; say, +2 unholy strength? Additionally, double planar gate build speed. Makes the PG a really big part of the strategy!

Gosea:
Prophetic: First, +100% to the building of Savants, and Second, allows a semi-clone of the Stigmata on the Unborn (in that it ONLY grants the beakers-per-city, not the mana or AC.) Best spread that AV far and wide!

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 09:46 PM

A few more ideas! :D

Hmm... for Hafgan, what about instead of granting all units Shock/Combat I, you could make goblins a bit more than a nuisance by allowing them (but not other recon units) to use metal weapons. And then, grant +1 poison strength at the Poisons tech. It'd mean that you'd have pretty much a neverending supply of not-altogether-worthless goblins to hurl at the enemy! Not near so strong as regular orcs, but you can pump them out at a ridiculous rate. Perhaps call it "Horde." Alternatively (or in addition, since Goblins still won't be very strong), give them Financial for hammers, allowing an even greater quantity of units to be brought to bear.

Hmm... I like it, but I think I prefer the Scorched Earth idea, given that his name is Hafgan the Purger. Maybe a goblin leader?

For Kane, I'd think about Decadent-- which would grant +50% (!) gold, but would also grant the Ostentatious promotion to all units, which causes them to give +10 hammers to any unit that kills them (commerce would be better, but I'm not sure it could be done with the current XML setup.) So you'd be more powerful economically, but also a much more tempting target for invaders. (Could be "understood" by the AI just as a diplomatic penalty.)

Sounds interesting, might go with it...

For Emma, how about Shamanistic? Grants Spirit Guide to all animal units, and maybe turns them into Beasts.

I like this one. :goodjob:

For Mahon the Butcher, give him Bloodthirsty-- grants a building that gives -80% unhappiness from rushing buildings, plus a promotion to all units granting +5 food from each combat. You'd really have no end to potential uses for the surplus population... :devil:

Mahon is already Tyrant, removing unhappiness entirely but granting a large amount of unhealth.

Veinhunter could have a promotion, granted to all units, that gives the ability to Move Impassible. Plus, an Autoacquire/Mustmaintain that grants stealth in mountains. (Call it "underminer." :D)

Already has Production-Financial. :lol:

I was also thinking that Furia the Mad could have Adaptive/Aggressive, but also be Psychotic, which causes non-Hero, non-Arcane units in enemy territory to randomly go Enraged in enemy territory.[/QUOTE]

That sounds interesting....

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 10:45 PM

Done with the Merc minor heroes, working on the Infernal ones now.

MagisterCultuum

Jun 03, 2009, 11:05 PM

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 11:27 PM

So, how ado they enter the game? Do they just arrive when the Gate is completed, or can they be built if they manage to enter the game at the start or as a liberated colony? Are they the same or seperate unitclasses? Will Resurrection bring back the right hero based on the leader? (Have you thought about making Resurrection maybe bring their traits back?)

They come in upon completion of the gate like Basium. They're all unitclass_basium, so they directly replace him, but I don't think that will cause a problem with spawning them via python. Resurrection will rez the correct hero, mostly because I saw how the Scions did it. :lol: And I don't think I'll allow their traits to return with resurrection... The civ wouldn't have the same confidence in the leader.

I believe that this in def cannotTrain(self,argsList): of CvGameUtils.py successfully blocks non-Auric Illian leaders from building Auric, yet I cannot seem to get the second part to stop people from building Priests of Winter before the ritual is completed. I think that I shouldn't even need to use python to require that because I created a SPECIALUNIT_WINTER allowed by the ritual (the way Nukes worked in vanilla, but not BtS), but that doesn't seem to do anything either.

if eUnit == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_AURIC'):
if pPlayer.getLeaderType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('LEADER_AURIC'):
return True

if eUnit == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PRIEST_OF_WINTER'):
if not CyGame().isProjectMaxedOut('PROJECT_THE_WHITE_HAND '):
return True

That looks like it SHOULD work, but I've never messed with projects so I don't know. :lol:

25Hour

Jun 03, 2009, 11:28 PM

Hmm... I like it, but I think I prefer the Scorched Earth idea, given that his name is Hafgan the Purger. Maybe a goblin leader?

Oh, I was thinking in addition to the whole "autoraze" deal. (Mainly I was just thinking to replace the Combat/Shock troops right out of the gate, because I feel like there'd be no way to defend against that early-midgame. Also, it'd make the Aggressive trait not do anything for you, and you'd almost inevitably get it.)

Come to think, you could also make an additional Warrens-type building that does effectively the same thing, but for Goblins only. (with Smelting, perhaps.) :D That might make them viable late-game...

The other ideas sound pretty neat! Can't wait to try them. :goodjob:

EDIT:'

Oh, also, did you see the Sheiam trait possibilities? (I edited those on to the end just two minutes before you posted.)

Valkrionn

Jun 03, 2009, 11:33 PM

Oh, I was thinking in addition to the whole "autoraze" deal. (Mainly I was just thinking to replace the Combat/Shock troops right out of the gate, because I feel like there'd be no way to defend against that early-midgame. Also, it'd make the Aggressive trait not do anything for you, and you'd almost inevitably get it.)

Come to think, you could also make an additional Warrens-type building that does effectively the same thing, but for Goblins only. (with Smelting, perhaps.) :D That might make them viable late-game...

The other ideas sound pretty neat! Can't wait to try them. :goodjob:

EDIT:'

Oh, also, did you see the Sheiam trait possibilities? (I edited those on to the end just two minutes before you posted.)

I had not, but I like them both. :goodjob:

A second warrens for goblins.... :eek: Dear god, you'd be swimming in a sea of the damn things. :lol: That's just interesting enough that I think I'll have to make a goblin leader.

xienwolf

Jun 03, 2009, 11:51 PM

One problem with your project python might be if you made that a repeatable ritual. Won't max out for long in that case.

MagisterCultuum

Jun 04, 2009, 12:17 AM

No, I had made it repeatable at once point but when I added that code I moved the world limit back to 1. I just decided to give it a team limit of 1 too, but haven't had time to test it since then.

That is a bit off topic though.

Given the last question in the Trivia thread, maybe Sallos should be based on the Angel of Death too.

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 12:21 AM

Given the last question in the Trivia thread, maybe Sallos should be based on the Angel of Death too.

haha Yeah... I was surprised to find that one. :lol:

WarKirby

Jun 04, 2009, 02:38 AM

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 03:36 AM

Finished the minor heroes for the Infernals, and added the Virtuous Pirate trait for Mordmorgan... Grants HN, 2 defensive strength, and 20% withdrawal to naval units. Not as overpowered as it sounds, mainly because the AI rarely uses a strong navy. :lol:

deadliver

Jun 04, 2009, 03:43 AM

I like the idea of Orthus for a Clan of Embers minor leader. Perhaps he could bne unable to build rantine, but would get to fight on the battlefield as a hero himself. With the axe and all.

Acheron, I disagree with though. If anything, I'd prefer to see Acheron as leader of his own civ sometime.

yeah that would be cool. Basically clan of embers with a nasty surprise. Or give him conqueror.

Orthus as leader should follow along the lines of Hyborem, he dies, you lose traits?

dyx

Jun 04, 2009, 04:09 AM

For Kane: Is it possible to have resources from other cities counting like the capital would have it in it's cross? So the capital would have like 10 corn etc. Then make his capital work the third ring and all other cities just the first, like the Jotnar's. So you would have a super capital, but not just a Kuriotates copy and it's in line with his entry.

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 04:18 AM

The resource bit no, but the other part yes. May even end up doing something like that.

As for Orthus as a leader, not going to happen. Sorry, but the lore flat out contradicts that one.

deadliver

Jun 04, 2009, 04:35 AM

That does bring to mind a piece of lore I read somewhere about him...something about him milling around aimlessly and being killed by a loin cloth wielding punk with a club.

dyx

Jun 04, 2009, 05:27 AM

Hrmp, I'd like a feature in line with him sitting on his throne, letting goods being carried to him. Maybe via a unique corporation which consumes every resource and is restricted to the capital?

Vermicious Knid

Jun 04, 2009, 06:13 PM

A second warrens for goblins.... :eek: Dear god, you'd be swimming in a sea of the damn things. :lol: That's just interesting enough that I think I'll have to make a goblin leader.

Happy dance....ENGAGE!

:goodjob:

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 06:16 PM

Just gotta find art for him.... And have to find out exactly how the clan social structure is set up. Is it like with Warhammer, where goblins are actually smarter but small and weak in comparison so relegated to minor jobs, or no?

deadliver

Jun 04, 2009, 06:19 PM

I like what you did with the Slaver trait. I was hoping someone would make a slavery friendly leader (beyond buildings etc).

Vermicious Knid

Jun 04, 2009, 06:20 PM

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 06:20 PM

Honestly, I like it too. It's powerful, but kills new cities at the same time... And it fits his pedia PERFECTLY. :lol:

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 06:24 PM

Time to light the Magister-signal.

haha Already posted in the Lore forum to try to get answers. :lol:

Also, I realized I forgot to describe what Slaver does... 15% chance to capture slaves from combat.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 04, 2009, 06:25 PM

Oh, had an idea for a Jotnar leader...

Hephaestus. Industrious, Ingenuity, Minor.

http://th09.deviantart.com/fs16/300W/f/2007/134/b/6/Hephaestus_by_TaekwondoNJ.jpg

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 06:34 PM

deadliver

Jun 04, 2009, 06:38 PM

Honestly, I like it too. It's powerful, but kills new cities at the same time... And it fits his pedia PERFECTLY. :lol:

Yeah he sure is an evil bastard. He is my favorite leader right now. D'tesh being second, seeing a pattern?

far_wanderer

Jun 04, 2009, 06:44 PM

Oh, had an idea for a Jotnar leader...

Hephaestus. Industrious, Ingenuity, Minor.

I like that... Could you post the original site for the pic? Can get a better quality that way. :lol:

I was thinking a Triton also, like someone suggested earlier on... Would be fun to emphasize coastal cities, rather than landlocked ones.

The Triton suggestion was me.
Hephaestus looks pretty cool, but I'd be wary of giving the Jotnar Ingenuity, even as a possibility later on. Because their entire army comes through upgrades, Ingenuity could, astoundingly enough, be overpowered for them :).

Vermicious Knid

Jun 04, 2009, 07:06 PM

I like that... Could you post the original site for the pic? Can get a better quality that way. :lol:

I was thinking a Triton also, like someone suggested earlier on... Would be fun to emphasize coastal cities, rather than landlocked ones.

http://th09.deviantart.com/fs16/300W/f/2007/134/b/6/Hephaestus_by_TaekwondoNJ.jpg

The Triton suggestion was me.
Hephaestus looks pretty cool, but I'd be wary of giving the Jotnar Ingenuity, even as a possibility later on. Because their entire army comes through upgrades, Ingenuity could, astoundingly enough, be overpowered for them :).

Nah. He doesn't have financial, so it wouldn't be totally awful. Trust me, acquiring financial as a minor is ridiculously hard.

DarkReborn

Jun 04, 2009, 07:58 PM

I'm thinking up on a story for both Bertus (the Merc leader) and Elijah Arnauld (the Calabim leader). Since they both look like, or at least, reference, Castlevania characters (Bertus has that whip, that could be the Belmont's Vampire Killer, and Elijah has that evil aristocrat look, with the glass of blood and everything, just like Dracula in Castlevania), that involves one being the rival of each other, I just need the right inspiration.

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 08:01 PM

I don't know about using Bertus, mostly because he's Opera's creation and I believe there is something planned for him already. Same with the other Mercurian minors... Would have to ask.

25Hour

Jun 04, 2009, 08:12 PM

Actually, I'd kinda like to see a rivalry between two minors of the same civ-- Mahon and Elijah would seem like natural enemies, since they both pretty much embody opposite traits of the Calabim-- you've got sophisticated and subtle on the one side, bloodthirsty and brutal on the other. Could make something out of that, or possibly have something similar between, say, Judecca and Duke Sallos. (That'd especially fit, come to think, since demons aren't exactly well-known for their cooperative tendancies.)

I don't know about a Bertus-Calabim rivalry... I'd figure that the Infernals/Mercurians wouldn't take the native Erebus races seriously enough to actually develop real enmity with any one of them. At best, they're pawns to shift around the board in the cause of defeating their real rivals.

Quetz

Jun 04, 2009, 08:40 PM

Gimil - Luchuirp - Craftmaster: Golems gain Mobility 1

Please, please....

Malchavic - Sheaim - Prophecy Mark for all units?

That would be pretty OP.

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 08:58 PM

The Craftmaster I'm planning on. :lol: Going to have to go into python for it, but it shouldn't be difficult.

I still have no idea for malchavic.

civ_king

Jun 04, 2009, 09:36 PM

The Craftmaster I'm planning on. :lol: Going to have to go into python for it, but it shouldn't be difficult.

I still have no idea for malchavic.

see if you can simply make the golem promotion give +1:move:, if not have it tied with unit creation

far_wanderer

Jun 04, 2009, 09:48 PM

I still have no idea for malchavic.

You could give all of his units the reverse of Prophecy Mark. Because the AC doesn't seem to track numbers below the minimum or above the maximum, this means he could build up a huge army while the AC is at zero, and then on the first major war it would skyrocket as all of the pyre zombies blow up. Be sure to only apply it to built units, though, not gate creatures, so he can field a late game army without having to drop the AC back down again.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 04, 2009, 10:48 PM

So....thinking further about Hephaestus, Industrious isn't the best trait. He is master of the forge, not a master architect. His specialty should be related to metal/mining, particularly weapons.

So...I came up with this.

<TraitInfo>
<Type>TRAIT_BLACKSMITH</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_BLACKSMITH</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_BLACKSMITH_SHORT</ShortDescription>
<Help/>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
<bInsane>0</bInsane>
<bSelectable>0</bSelectable>
<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
<ExtraYieldThresholds>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>3</iExtraYieldThreshold>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
</ExtraYieldThresholds>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<FreePromotions>
<FreePromotion>
<PromotionType>PROMOTION_ARMORED</PromotionType>
<bFreePromotion>1</bFreePromotion>
</FreePromotion>
</FreePromotions>
<FreePromotionUnitCombats>
<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WORKER</UnitCombatType>
<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE</UnitCombatType>
<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<FreePromotionUnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
<bFreePromotionUnitCombat>1</bFreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombat>
</FreePromotionUnitCombats>
</TraitInfo>

<PromotionInfo>
<Type>PROMOTION_ARMORED</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_ARMORED</Description>
<bEffectProm>1</bEffectProm>
<PromotionAllows>
<Promotion>PROMOTION_BRONZE_WEAPONS</Promotion>
<Promotion>PROMOTION_IRON_WEAPONS</Promotion>
<Promotion>PROMOTION_MITHRIL_WEAPONS</Promotion>
</PromotionAllows>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/???.dds</Button>
</PromotionInfo>

Valkrionn

Jun 04, 2009, 10:51 PM

Hmm... Looks like a weaker version of Expert Miner (hammer financial), and a promotion allowing most units access to all the weapon tiers? That could actually be interesting... Those Jotnar Workers would be scary as hell. :lol:

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 01:26 AM

Just realized I forgot to add Agnostic to Thanatos of the Legion of D'tesh.... Not sure if I will or not.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 03:26 PM

So...inspired by WK's cool-ass button art.

Jotnar minor leader, Aurgelmir. Frost Giant. Trait to be determined, should be something that allows Jots to thrive in Tundra/Ice.

http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/249/b/8/Frost_Giant_by_boudicca.jpg

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 03:32 PM

Hmm... Frost Giants are *supposed* to be all dead, but I like this. Think I'll go with it. :goodjob:

MagisterCultuum

Jun 05, 2009, 03:37 PM

No, there is supposed to be one frost giant left, and Auric believes he can bring the rest back once he ascends. (There are probably still a lot of frost giants wandering Mulcarn's abandoned hell, Wilboman is just the only one left in Erebus.)

Note that Frost Giants are very intelligent (they possess nothing of the mind sphere, but are pure ice), and that Auric is able to control them telepathically. A frost giant Jotnar leader would alwasy make his people be slaves to the White Hand.

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 03:42 PM

Well, obviously besides Wilboman. :lol:

I agree, a frost giant leader should be evil and aligned with the Illians. If I manage to get my hands on Opera's leader-relations code that should be easy enough to do... :p

He could possibly be an alternate method of founding the White Hand if the Illians aren't in game.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 03:47 PM

How easy is it to switch palaces by leader? Seems like ice mana would be a natural here.

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 03:49 PM

Should be easy to switch the INITIAL palace, but I think it might be more complex to switch any you might build later on.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 04:17 PM

Should be easy to switch the INITIAL palace, but I think it might be more complex to switch any you might build later on.

Probably don't want to raise the difficulty factor to 10 on a minor leader. :D

Giving him a strong preference for the WH and a suitable unique trait should work. Although...can you change specific terrain yields with a trait? :confused:

Also, he should have a unique Frost Giant unit (art already available in Age of Ice) and should probably have access to some of the WH religious units once he adopts it.

Is all of this doable without him having his own civ? :confused:

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 04:22 PM

Probably don't want to raise the difficulty factor to 10 on a minor leader. :D

Giving him a strong preference for the WH and a suitable unique trait should work. Although...can you change specific terrain yields with a trait? :confused:

Also, he should have a unique Frost Giant unit (art already available in Age of Ice) and should probably have access to some of the WH religious units once he adopts it.

Is all of this doable without him having his own civ? :confused:

Honestly, I prefer minor leaders. I like growing them. :lol: So I don't mind work.

I don't think you can change yields with traits, but the rest is possible.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 04:35 PM

I don't think you can change yields with traits, but the rest is possible.

Can a building do it? His unique palace could add a building in each city....

far_wanderer

Jun 05, 2009, 04:47 PM

Can a building do it? His unique palace could add a building in each city....

You shouldn't even have to do a building in each city. The Lanun used to do that exact thing with their palace, so it should be possible.

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 04:55 PM

I believe it's only possible for ocean/coastal tiles. Going to do something like that for a triton leader.

Opera

Jun 05, 2009, 04:59 PM

Also possible for rivertiles.

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 05:02 PM

Well, yeah, but that kinda falls under water tiles. :lol: Didn't think to mention it.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 05:14 PM

Also possible for rivertiles.

Hmmmm...there should really be a river-loving Civ. Apart from the Malakim, that is. :D

WarKirby

Jun 05, 2009, 05:23 PM

Hmmmm...there should really be a river-loving Civ. Apart from the Malakim, that is. :D

There is.

Every non-fallow civ in existence.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 05:31 PM

There is.

Every non-fallow civ in existence.

Spoilsport. :D

I was thinking a civ of river gypsies or some such. Their leader could be Johnny Canal...and they could have a spell that creates rivers.

Opera

Jun 05, 2009, 05:47 PM

I think creating rivers would be tricky.

My Orbis civ, the Ngomele, are especially river-fan. They have some bonuses near them. However, sure, there could be a civ with more flavour toward river.

deadliver

Jun 05, 2009, 05:53 PM

I think creating rivers would be tricky.

My Orbis civ, the Ngomele, are especially river-fan. They have some bonuses near them. However, sure, there could be a civ with more flavour toward river.

Hmm, would that require a filter? How about if they could move along rivers faster?

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 06:07 PM

I think creating rivers would be tricky.

My Orbis civ, the Ngomele, are especially river-fan. They have some bonuses near them. However, sure, there could be a civ with more flavour toward river.

Well that works then.

So when is Valkrionn porting the gnolls over? :D

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 06:19 PM

Haha, that would depend on Opera. I'd like to include them eventually though. :p

far_wanderer

Jun 05, 2009, 06:37 PM

There is.

Every non-fallow civ in existence.
Why only non-fallow? Rivers make commerce and cheap trade routes too.
...and they could have a spell that creates rivers.
If you can figure out how, tell me. One of my eventual goals in reworking the spell system is to have every type of terraforming be somehow available. Rivers are the only thing I don't even have the slightest clue how to manage.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 06:39 PM

Hmm, would that require a filter? How about if they could move along rivers faster?

I'm not sure why creating rivers should be impossible if they are listed as a terrain or a feature (can't remember which). Seems like you could just copy the python from scorch or some such.

Of course, I'm probably massively oversimplifying it. :D

Maybe it's the direction of the river that makes things crazy?

Now I have to try...

*grumble*

WarKirby

Jun 05, 2009, 06:50 PM

rivers run along the lines BETWEEN tiles.

They are neither feature, improvement, or terrain. I'm not sure what they are to be honest.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 05, 2009, 06:56 PM

rivers run along the lines BETWEEN tiles.

They are neither feature, improvement, or terrain. I'm not sure what they are to be honest.

Perhaps they are ducks?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

xienwolf

Jun 05, 2009, 09:11 PM

It's even a PITA to make rivers where you want them to be with Worldbuilder. I don't see a spell ever happening.

KillerClowns

Jun 05, 2009, 09:26 PM

far_wanderer

Jun 05, 2009, 09:31 PM

Perhaps they are ducks?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU
So here's a question for you: is it technically possible for a river to sink or float?
It's even a PITA to make rivers where you want them to be with Worldbuilder. I don't see a spell ever happening.
That's pretty much my thinking as well. Because rivers are so good, any spell that created or destroyed them would have to be HUGELY expensive, so having to lay them out like you do in worldbuilder would be a huge penalty to people who actually care about how their empire looks, and don't just want to spam rivers everywhere.

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 09:40 PM

Still have a blank spot for the Austrin leader? Way back in the day, in Notque's thread, I offered up an idea (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7832057&postcount=352), and 25hour gave a possible trait (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7832775&postcount=360) to go with it. Do with both as you will, I live art finding to you.
Also, I'm the wise-guy who came up with the original idea for Esirce, knowing he'd be overpowered. I'd intended he also get a nerfing trait of some sort; you'll notice Esirce is not described the most competent of individuals. Some sort of trait to demonstrate the corruption that consumes his court; perhaps something that increases city maintenance?

That's awesome, going to use it. :goodjob:

Also, Esirce is amazingly well written... Reminds me of Dongalore from Kröd Mändoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire, although you wrote that before the show ever aired. :lol: He's actually almost balanced in FFPlus, too, because he can't build Adventurer spawn buildings in captured cities.

KillerClowns

Jun 05, 2009, 10:11 PM

Something else, now that I think about it. It's from something I'm working on but, on reflection, I'll not be using this particular bit. I see it being used for one Vohu Manah, a Sidar leader with the "cleanser" trait (grants all units Undead Slaying), a good alignment, and more aggression than her kin. The name is that of a Great Merchant; long story.
Mel'ash smelled them before he saw them. The living. But not Austrin. No, no, not Austrin at all. Austrin stank, dirtier than many animals. They stank of toil, of work, of the wilds. But these living... yes, they definitely smelled human. But what sort of human? There were workers and laborers, but they smelled cleaner than any Austrin could hope to. And there were other smells... perfumes, like those the Scions of the false Patria held so dear. But different sorts of perfumes. Foreign perfumes, from somewhere beyond the world known to D'tesh and his Legion.

So Mel'ash went forward, driven by a mixture of curiosity and greed. He's be rewarded well for bringing D'tesh a new supply of slaves. Soft, he reckoned they were from the smell. But they could be made useful in time. When he gazed out towards the newcomers, however, his confidence faltered. They were armed, yes, and armored. Leading them was a woman, a woman who smelled like mist. They were pale, as though dead, but they still smelled living. Slaves they would be. But those weapons... arms and armor Mel'ash had never seen before, in the hands of his kin or the Scions. They were dangerous, so very dangerous... perhaps, Mel'ash thought, he should speak with them. Deception and trickery, after all, where just as good as slaughter, though not half as fun. And Mel'ash could be mistaken for living, well enough anyways.

Mel'ash muttered a spell, to grant him the power of tongues. He then slipped out from his hiding place, approaching the foreigners. He was immediately surrounded by the pale men. Their swords, he noticed, were elegant, nothing like D'tesh's own glorified meat cleavers. An aesthetic people. They had also been placed at his throat, even though he'd been alone a second ago. “Come,” said one of the pale ones. “Vohu will see you.” “Who is this... Vohu?” Mel'ash asked. His captor responded, “Vohu Manah is the leader of the Sidar Expeditionary Force.” The woman who smelled of mist approached. Mal'ash assumed that she was Vohu.

Vohu said, “Explain yourself. Who are you, and who do you serve?” “I am Mel'ash, servant of D'tesh, the eternal lord of this world. We are... willing to live in peace with your people, so long as we come to the... proper... understandings.” “Who is this D'tesh?” “Why, he is the greatest of all wizards, a man who, since the Age of Magic, has been granting eternal life to those... powerful enough, to take it.” Vohu examined Mel'ash. “Eternal life? No, I think your D'tesh offers only undeath. We cannot tolerate such abominations. We will cleanse your kind. Guards, dispose of this corpse!” The Sidar obeyed, rending Mel'ash before he even knew what was happening.

Valkrionn

Jun 05, 2009, 10:46 PM

That would be interesting too.... I like the story. :lol:

Vehem

Jun 06, 2009, 03:08 AM

That's awesome, going to use it. :goodjob:

I've actually added the "Recon Units get Adventurer" trait as a CivTrait for the Austrin, branded "Wanderer". Having Harmatt/Heros start with a one shot immortal still sounds pretty solid for a trait though (given how annoying he is to kill anyway).

WarKirby

Jun 06, 2009, 03:09 AM

With a river creating spell, I'd rather you not have much control over it. Instead, that it would just spring randomly from your current location, trying to flow towards the sea.

Opera

Jun 06, 2009, 04:00 AM

far_wanderer

Jun 06, 2009, 01:10 PM

I just tried a quick game on "random leader" for the first time in a while, and ended up with Sauros. If you plan on making a goblin-centric leader for the Clan, Sauros will need to be moved to the Cualli like you mentioned a while back. Goblins with Poisoned Weapons are amazing. I don't think it would be possible to make a leader that uses them better without making them too good.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 06, 2009, 05:29 PM

It's even a PITA to make rivers where you want them to be with Worldbuilder. I don't see a spell ever happening.

Yeah...I found where rivers are mentioned in the WB python. All looks like gibberish to me. If I'm understanding correctly riverside tiles are defined as being North or West of a river? If I was insane and wanted to define a plot as such by spell, what would the syntax be?

xienwolf

Jun 06, 2009, 06:46 PM

I don't mean so much the targetting or choosing where the river flows to. I mean making it bend and turn in a natural fashion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314321).

Vermicious Knid

Jun 06, 2009, 07:41 PM

I don't mean so much the targetting or choosing where the river flows to. I mean making it bend and turn in a natural fashion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314321).

Oh, I get that it will probably look like crap. :lol:

How would I define the plot in python?

WarKirby

Jun 07, 2009, 08:16 AM

I don't mean so much the targetting or choosing where the river flows to. I mean making it bend and turn in a natural fashion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314321).

It's like solving a puzzle. The interface is horrible,

Valkrionn

Jun 07, 2009, 07:19 PM

Update on Gimil.... Craftmaster is in. Turns out to be easier than I thought.... Didn't realize promotions had a AllowNullCombat tag. Made a mobility clone that Autoacquires if the unit has the Golem promotion, and the leader has the Craftmaster trait. :goodjob:

Valkrionn

Jun 07, 2009, 09:07 PM

So...inspired by WK's cool-ass button art.

Jotnar minor leader, Aurgelmir. Frost Giant. Trait to be determined, should be something that allows Jots to thrive in Tundra/Ice.

Trying to think of what to do here... All I can think, is to make him Barbarian(peace with Frostlings), and have a new trait grant Winterborn. Then have an autoacquire promotion, requiring Winterborn, Jotnar, and Tundra/Ice, granting invisibility. Any better ideas for him?

Vermicious Knid

Jun 07, 2009, 09:13 PM

Since this thread is mostly about traits now....:lol:

The default traits for 2 of the Jotnar leaders need work.

Father Whatever has Aggressive/Financial...but Mother already has Financial. His civ text states "the lesser races can live as they will...so long as they serve us." That seems like a slam-dunk case for Aggressive/Conqueror.

Uxol has Arcane/Barbarian/Raider. Arcane has literally no value for him until he hits Sorcery. Barbarian has negative value once he builds the Jotnar Great Wall. Raider is of little use until he can rush another civ...which given the way Jotnar play is gonna be mid to late game.

Since he unlike the other 2 leaders is half-troll, I suggest a trait that bumps the recon line. I would suggest Treacherous. I would also suggest adding "overwrites Promotion_Estranged" to your Treacherous promotion. That way Uxol can produce loyal nasty trolls, distinguishing him from the non-Troll leaders. I'd swap Treacherous for barbarian and/or Raider.

Valkrionn

Jun 07, 2009, 09:29 PM

Vermicious Knid

Jun 07, 2009, 10:22 PM

I'll go ahead and change Kasghenas to Conquerer... I like it too. :lol:

I love the treacherous idea... I think I'll go with it. Replacing Raider... I'd replace barbarian, but that helps him explore, which will be even better with stronger recon units.

:goodjob:

Now we just need to add Barbarian trolls....

I've tried swapping them for Lizardman in the Hunter slot for Bhall. They show up nice and early with the orc and goblin stacks. They look pretty scary but are actually fairly easy to kill (no defensive bonus). I like them there...helps break the monotony of killing endless waves of early goblinoids. :D

Valkrionn

Jun 07, 2009, 10:37 PM

I like that... Think I'll use it for now.

Valkrionn

Jun 07, 2009, 10:45 PM

Added Hephaestus to the second post, as well as the Gimil changes.

Opera

Jun 08, 2009, 12:11 AM

Valkrionn

Jun 08, 2009, 12:24 AM

I just played a Scions game in my own modmod and... ahem... I noticed I'm unable to have any hero of the civ :lol: It seems you need to be Organized to build the Emperor and I didn't get Korrina at first. How did you handle this? If you didn't yet, how will you?

Edit: I love Slaver! Isn't Tyrant a bit powerful?

I haven't touched them yet, honestly. That's part of the reason... The other is that I haven't found one I like yet. Want the art before I start. :lol: Korrina I know you can handle via python... The Emperor, I'd switch to a python canbuild call, especially now that Republic can grant Organized.

Slaver is awesome, yes... Makes conquest an important strategy, which is rather odd for the Khazad. I like it. :goodjob:

Tyrant is actually not that bad... Gives you unlimited cities, but it SERIOUSLY nerfs the early game with that 5 unhealth. I had to fight just to get above 5 pop.... Almost got bulldozed a few times early on.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 08, 2009, 01:48 AM

Trying to think of what to do here... All I can think, is to make him Barbarian(peace with Frostlings), and have a new trait grant Winterborn. Then have an autoacquire promotion, requiring Winterborn, Jotnar, and Tundra/Ice, granting invisibility. Any better ideas for him?

Sorry, missed this earlier. :)

How about a promotion in addition that requires all of the above and adds +1 cold damage and further increases cold resistance, perhaps at the cost of increased vulnerability to fire? Earned with experience, maybe a minimum level. Could also get crazy with an ice mana-affinity with a very high level requirement.

They aren't going to be very good at subsisting in cold terrain...but I don't see an easy way to fix that with the trait system. There is the option of <CityBonuses> for food with a promotion...maybe giantkin with the free trait promotion standing on a workable tundra/ice tile could add food to the city? Wouldn't be the passive bonus that Illians/Doviello enjoy, but could represent the Giant out hunting.

black_imperator

Jun 08, 2009, 08:06 AM

Some Ideas for the duplicate leaders

* Hafgan the Purger - Clan -
He seems to be a warmonger, so razed earth as you proposed or something which gives +1attack/-1defense to all units ( or at least melee and archery i think ), maybe called Berserk

* Thessalonica - Elohim -
she is a sorceress, in my opinion, so an elohim sorceress, i would say sanctify or wall of stone to all adepts units

* Captain Uldanor - Hippus - ? Tactician, -1Strength +1Move for mounted units, free promo tactics I

* Casin - Lanun - Don't know, maybe something water-related a promo to naval units or a trait that decrease their cost ...

* Eldarwen - Ljosalfar - No idea

* Kane - Malakim - from the pedia, Cruelty: increase ennemy war weariness , halves population in taken cities

* Malchavic - Sheaim - Prophecy Mark for all units ? , not for all units but for adepts and planar gate units i thnik

Opera

Jun 08, 2009, 08:35 AM

A dumb question: what do you all mean by duplicate leaders? Minor leaders which share a trait with a non-minor of the same civ?

Valkrionn

Jun 08, 2009, 08:39 AM

Exactly. Although not necessarily only Minor leaders.... Any minor which shares a trait with a leader of the same civ is a duplicate.

Opera

Jun 08, 2009, 08:46 AM

Okay then. I guess I will take care of that too in my modmod... Will read this thread again to see suggestions :p

Opera

Jun 08, 2009, 08:55 AM

Okay, just checked and, in fact, there is no duplicate leaders in Orbis. Great :)

Have you begun thinking about minor leaders for the FF civs? I have one for the Cualli if you want :)

Valkrionn

Jun 08, 2009, 08:56 AM

Yeah, I've got to do the same myself. :lol: That, and start on the Scorched Earth trait... And think of one for the Frost Giant leader, and come up with leaders for other civs.... :crazyeye:

Edit: I have actually, but I need to find art. That is my issue usually. :lol: If you don't mind sharing, I'm more than willing to take any ideas. :goodjob:

Opera

Jun 08, 2009, 09:05 AM

What is Scorched Earth supposed to do?

Art is not really a problem... It is when I search something very specific. This is why I mostly think after having found art. Because, unless you can do it yourself, you're rarely, very rarely going to find the perfect artwork.

Anyway, I've two pictures for Cualli/Mazatl leaders (as you may know, they're one civ only in Orbis). I only created a "Cualli-er" minor (as a Mazatl-er existed already), Mihuatl, a religious b*sta*d leaning toward AV. One problem is that I don't have the author of the picture... so I will most likely change it. Not really hard to find...

Then, I have another picture that I reserve for a special type of Mazatl leader for Orbis. In fact, you will be able to choose its alignment (but won't be able to choose neutral). No name nor personality yet... When it's done, I'll show you and you could add it to the Mazatl I believe, if you add the other to the Cualli.

As far as other FF civs go, I think you ruled out the Kahdi? I never played them for one good reason: didn't like the leader :lol: I want to slap him in the face every time. Whatever. I did a leader for the Austrin back in my beginner days (:p)... it uses the art of some GP though. She was good and peaceful. I did one for the Archos too but lost it...

So, mostly, I can/will help for the lizards :)

Valkrionn

Jun 08, 2009, 09:09 AM

Scorched Earth will grant a combat bonus to the Clan, at the cost of a commerce hit and auto-razing of cities.

I haven't *quite* ruled out the Kahdi, but it's rather hard to picture someone other than Kahd leading them.

Opera

Jun 08, 2009, 09:09 AM

Wait, you mean Scorched Earth will be a CivTrait for the Clan?

WarKirby

Jun 08, 2009, 09:14 AM

Some of these minor leader traits seem really overpowered. looking at the list:

Craftmaster
Blacksmith
Tyrant
Reckless

Faster golems kind of defeats the point of even having golems. They're supposed to be big and slow. I really dislike that trait, period. I think Combat I for golems would be better.

Blacksmith, is just insane. Metal weapons for recon units is really a bad idea. Rangers are already a bit too powerful, I feel. With this, there'd be no point in even building melee units. I think, it should just make metal weapons better for those units that already can use them, not allowing them to new unit classes.

Tyrant likewise, is a bit much. no unhappiness seems a bit unfair. Personally, I do like the idea of it, but I think it would be better as a civic (available to everyone), rather than a trait. And I think a large increase in maintenance would be more fitting than unhealthiness. Also, perhaps. a % penalty to :hammers:. Becuase unhappy people work as slow as they can, slack off whenever the overseer isn't looking, and deliberately sabotage their own work. Soviet russia actually had this problem.

Reckless, I don't know. Seems like it could make for extremely easy early game steamrolling. Rush KoTE and everything dies. Tier 2 spells and summons make mincemeat out of most things. The barbarian chance doesn't really seem much of a balancing factor. For one, the AI is like a monkey with a nuke, when it comes to magic. And with their low combat strength, the occasional adept going rogue is easy to pick off with normal troops.

Also, Protective, is just too much like Defensive for me. I'd rather see the two rolled into one personally. it doesn't seem worth having it as a seperate trait.

Valkrionn

Jun 08, 2009, 09:25 AM

Wait, you mean Scorched Earth will be a CivTrait for the Clan?

No, just for Hafgan the Purger, who happens to be a Clan leader. I just think the idea of it matches the name. :lol:

Some of these minor leader traits seem really overpowered. looking at the list:

Craftmaster
Blacksmith
Tyrant
Reckless

Faster golems kind of defeats the point of even having golems. They're supposed to be big and slow. I really dislike that trait, period. I think Combat I for golems would be better.

Blacksmith, is just insane. Metal weapons for recon units is really a bad idea. Rangers are already a bit too powerful, I feel. With this, there'd be no point in even building melee units. I think, it should just make metal weapons better for those units that already can use them, not allowing them to new unit classes.

Tyrant likewise, is a bit much. no unhappiness seems a bit unfair. Personally, I do like the idea of it, but I think it would be better as a civic (available to everyone), rather than a trait. And I think a large increase in maintenance would be more fitting than unhealthiness.

Reckless, I don't know. Seems like it could make for extremely easy early game steamrolling. Rush KoTE and everything dies. Tier 2 spells and summons make mincemeat out of most things. The barbarian chance doesn't really seem much of a balancing factor. For one, the AI is like a monkey with a nuke, when it comes to magic. And with their low combat strength, the occasional adept going rogue is easy to pick off with normal troops.

Also, Protective, is just too much like Defensive for me. I'd rather see the two rolled into one personally. it doesn't seem worth having it as a seperate trait.

Really, I can change Craftmaster into whatever I like... I never knew there was a allownullcombat tag. Can add literally anything to the Golems... Could even have a series of autoacquire promotions, based on their terrain. On a hill? Gain Guerrilla. Forest? Woodsman. That would actually be interesting.....

With Blacksmith, I don't really see why you'd focus on Recon units... It's for the Jotnar exclusively. Honestly, Treacherous is more powerful for them there, as it prevents the Trolls from going wild. With Blacksmith, I'm more concerned about the Workers... I just put it in as it was handed to me, haven't played a game with it yet to see how it needs to be balanced.

Tyrant I think is balanced quite well by the unhealth. It allows the Calabim unlimited size cities, which they can get a few ways anyway, at the cost of a slow early growth. Maintenance wouldn't slow city growth, which is more important than territorial expansion for the Calabim... Can't feed off small cities.

This one I haven't played with, but I like. It also quite honestly wouldn't come into play for very long... As the Amurites, I generally go for Sorcery ASAP, and this wouldn't change that much.

You have a point on Protective. Would make Defender a more useful trait...

WarKirby

Jun 08, 2009, 10:02 AM

As long as you're buffing the defender trait, how about making Homeland an optional prereq for Guardsman and Defensive. To save having to get a ton of levels to use those.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 08, 2009, 12:05 PM

Blacksmith, is just insane. Metal weapons for recon units is really a bad idea. Rangers are already a bit too powerful, I feel. With this, there'd be no point in even building melee units. I think, it should just make metal weapons better for those units that already can use them, not allowing them to new unit classes.

This one is my baby. :D I agree it would be insane for just about any civ other than Jotnar. For Jotnar it is powerful, but certainly not moreso than financial. Giving Cyklops metal weapons might mean you actually use one once in a blue moon...but I kinda doubt it. :lol: My Jot Workers are already hopeless on attack but usually have Defense 7(hardy2)...boosting them to a 4/9 with iron won't exactly cause havoc. If I can take cities with 4 power units at ironworking I'm playing on the wrong difficulty. :D

far_wanderer

Jun 08, 2009, 01:42 PM

Tyrant likewise, is a bit much. no unhappiness seems a bit unfair. Personally, I do like the idea of it, but I think it would be better as a civic (available to everyone), rather than a trait.
As a civic, it would be overpowered. What's supposed to be the balancing factor right now is that the unhealth penalty cripples your early growth. Make it a civic and people will just wait until health isn't an issue to switch to it.

And I think a large increase in maintenance would be more fitting than unhealthiness. Also, perhaps. a % penalty to :hammers:. Becuase unhappy people work as slow as they can, slack off whenever the overseer isn't looking, and deliberately sabotage their own work. Soviet russia actually had this problem.
That's already exactly what normal unhappiness does. The idea behind Tyrant was that he has the people so completely and utterly terrified that they don't rebel, and the unhealthiness comes from the bodies piling up and the poor living conditions. You might be right about needing more of a balance, but it shouldn't take the form of anything representing disgruntled citizens.

Also, Protective, is just too much like Defensive for me. I'd rather see the two rolled into one personally. it doesn't seem worth having it as a seperate trait.
I agree. Defensive really needs a bit of a boost anyway, and as far as I can tell it's supposed to have the same general effect as Protective.

Valkrionn

Jun 08, 2009, 07:42 PM

Just merged Defender and Protective... Had to use an Autoacquire promotion to prevent City Garrison from going to all the units. Although I might end up switching that back... I don't have a problem with Protective making nearly all your units better defenders.

Vermicious Knid

Jun 08, 2009, 08:48 PM

Hawkwood

Jun 09, 2009, 07:55 AM

Since Homeland can only be gained because of the Defender trait and City Garrison 1 can be gained at at level up, why don't you make Defender give City Garrison to archery units while homeland is automatically acquired by any unit if you have the Defender trait?

deadliver

Jun 09, 2009, 08:04 AM

Hawkwood

Jun 09, 2009, 09:46 AM

Why don't you build some Ghulams using my module? Sorry Valkrionn, I had to do it.
The only way to gain Homeland is to have the Defender trait, starting wit it is a different story (which I assume is why the Ghulams have it?).

deadliver

Jun 11, 2009, 12:35 AM

The only way to gain Homeland is to have the Defender trait, starting wit it is a different story (which I assume is why the Ghulams have it?).

yep, raised from birth to defend the motherland and free men everywhere

civ_king

Jun 11, 2009, 01:29 AM

we need hadoken then...

Quetz

Jun 11, 2009, 10:20 AM

we need hadoken then...

Jotnar vs Amurites... http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/03/20/episode-007-kamehameha-or-something/

(click next at the top for full effect)

Xin

Jun 13, 2009, 09:11 AM

Why has Sauros Hemmah's picture?

DarkReborn

Jun 13, 2009, 08:09 PM

Here's an evil leader for the Mechanos, I've found the prefect pic:

Emperor Hestal
(the pic is too big, so I'm posting the link only) (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=125251)
Evil

Industrious
Tyrant
Minor
(If you see this too imbalanced, just change whatever you want, but I'd recommend to keep the Tyrant trait, so his story and alignment can fit)

The story is that he's the leader of a more radical, oppressive splinter of the Mechanos, the "Mechanos Empire" (I assume here, that the Mechanos are a collection of City States under a more or less decentralized government).
He will not stop until Machines have completely replaced Magic as tool, both for war and peace, and will do anything on his hand to eradicate it from the world, from genocides on cities with an high population of magic users to rounding up all the magic users his troops capture in concentration camps and leave them to starvation, hoping to even maybe defeat the "Gods" (If I've understood well, the Gods of FFH are not immortal gods in the traditional sense, but angels or archangels and can be killed). He's fully adherent of the Ordo Machinarum, a fundamentalist of it. Also, like all power hungry leaders, he aspires to the lame objective of world domination :lol:

His name is a pun to a villain of a well known RPG, that develops in a steam punk world. You might guess which one :lol:

Valkrionn

Jun 13, 2009, 08:57 PM

Why has Sauros Hemmah's picture?

Because Notque couldn't find a better one, and I haven't tried yet.

Here's an evil leader for the Mechanos, I've found the prefect pic:

Emperor Hestal
(the pic is too big, so I'm posting the link only) (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=125251)
Evil

Industrious
Tyrant
Minor
(If you see this too imbalanced, just change whatever you want, but I'd recommend to keep the Tyrant trait, so his story and alignment can fit)

The story is that he's the leader of a more radical, oppressive splinter of the Mechanos, the "Mechanos Empire" (I assume here, that the Mechanos are a collection of City States under a more or less decentralized government).
He will not stop until Machines have completely replaced Magic as tool, both for war and peace, and will do anything on his hand to eradicate it from the world, from genocides on cities with an high population of magic users to rounding up all the magic users his troops capture in concentration camps and leave them to starvation, hoping to even maybe defeat the "Gods" (If I've understood well, the Gods of FFH are not immortal gods in the traditional sense, but angels or archangels and can be killed). He's fully adherent of the Ordo Machinarum, a fundamentalist of it. Also, like all power hungry leaders, he aspires to the lame objective of world domination :lol:

His name is a pun to a villain of a well known RPG, that develops in a steam punk world. You might guess which one :lol:

That's actually VERY close to something I have planned. Won't go into details yet though. ;)

Opera

Jun 14, 2009, 04:22 AM

Because Notque couldn't find a better oneThat's a joke, right? Not like it was very hard to find a picture non used by another thing in the mod :lol:

Valkrionn

Jun 14, 2009, 04:27 AM

Nope. He looked, but couldn't find one he liked better.

Korias

Jun 20, 2009, 08:13 AM

One FF civ that remains with only one leader is the Dural. While browsing the Civilopedia, I noticed that in the Statue of [Insert Virtue here] entries, Dannmos stated "We will benefit from his [the artist's] council." Considering the preceeding paragraph, perhaps the artist of the statues would fit as the minor leader for the Dural, as a Charismatic/Minor leader?

Edit: Massive amounts of google searching has turned up This painting (http://www.davidjnegron.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/impressionist-painting-classical-sculptor.jpg), which may be able to act as a leader head if permission is obtained. Otherwise, I cant find anything.

Quetz

Jun 22, 2009, 12:15 AM

bumping to request a link to this thread from the FFplus thread, just to make it easier to find

Guybrush!

Jun 22, 2009, 01:36 AM

Just a quick note whilst thinking about Kahd : Would the Traits from his Worldspell be the same for his underling? Also, IIRC, the unit of Kahd doesn't have hero, prevents twincast. :mad:

Korias

Jun 22, 2009, 01:53 AM

Just a quick note whilst thinking about Kahd : Would the Traits from his Worldspell be the same for his underling? Also, IIRC, the unit of Kahd doesn't have hero, prevents twincast. :mad:

I'd rather have Khad's minor leaders to have access to only one of the world spells, Either Corruption, for perhaps the original Angel that pushed Khad on his journey, or Enlightenment for a devout follower of Oghma (or even an Angel of Oghma).

Valkrionn

Jun 22, 2009, 10:37 AM

bumping to request a link to this thread from the FFplus thread, just to make it easier to find

Been meaning to do that, put it at the bottom of the first post with the links to the Malakim+ and Doviello+ threads. :goodjob:

About Kahd... Seriously considering not giving him any minor leaders.

xxHammerxx

Jun 22, 2009, 02:08 PM

Could you allow twincast and heroic strength n defense to be allowable by Khad's special promotion?

IIRC its similar to hero but nonetheless is a different promotion.

Darksaber1

Jun 22, 2009, 02:43 PM

Um, one thin with Mahon's Tyrant trait-I think it's actually pretty weak, because you can't get the production bonus from Govaner's manors with no unhappiness. Is it possible to make it so that you don't get unhappy citizen's intsted? Or would that be to hard to code.

Oh, and is their somewhere we could put ideas for civopedia entries for you original minor leaders? I have an idea or Corel, what's her name, the Hydromancer.

xxHammerxx

Jun 22, 2009, 03:32 PM

truly only unhappy citizens should gain production with Governor's manor. Any further production is unintended and a bug.

Valkrionn

Jun 22, 2009, 04:43 PM

Actually, Kael has stated several times that it is intended for all unhappiness to produce hammers so it's not a bug.

As for tyrant, that's one of the reasons I went with it. You can get massive feeding cities, but your production will suffer.

Feel free to post any text here, or in the writing thread... Can't remember it's name atm. People have already posted text there for stuff in my mod haha.

I'm not sure about the balance with Kahd... Never finished a game with them, let alone played a game with their new changes.

Korias

Jun 22, 2009, 10:05 PM

About Kahd... Seriously considering not giving him any minor leaders.

Makes sense- isnt that whole Civ one giant cult of personality?

As far as playing as the Khadi went, They're rather weak actually. Gnoslings and Thades dont do much, and you're forced down three different lines (Melee, Recon/Archery, and Arcane) to get up and running. You need the Melee line for decent attackers, The Recon/Archery line for decent defense, and the arcane line for anything else. Gnoslings dont have the bonus to City defense, and with three strength, they are pratically worthless. Metamagic 1/2 doesnt help either and they suddenly become mooks. Thades, while strength four, are similarly handicaped by a lack of 10% City Attack Bonus that Axemen receive, and their spells are rather useless. Teleport is nifty to get the jump on your opponent, but the Thade is simply not strong enough to stay around without access to Metal Weapons.

As far as the world spell is concerned, Enlightenment gives a bonus to Gate Spawn rates, which means that you get free defensive units, letting you train up Adepts, but that comes in at Strength of Will- If you dont Beeline this (which is easier said than done- Breaking into three lines means that you're stuck trying to get a decent base up before you can even begin to go up the Arcane), then you will be hard pressed to get any expanding or get a decent defense going.

Corruption, on the other hand, gives you the Psions. Which means that your vault spawning is still low, but you do have stronger units. I didnt get to play much with Corruption due to CtD, but they seemed rather good if you chose that path. Otherwise, the Khadi really do struggle in the early and mid game- They struggle with expansion, offense, defense, and economics, until they get to SoW, a late game expensive tech that is hard to reach if you need to tech to get axemen and archers to have any sort of decent power rating, and then tech to get KotE and Vault Gates, and then further along like the Amurites. They really do suffer in similar ways, except the Amurites have access to more versatile units along the way, making Khad worse than Valledia or Dain pre-sorcery.

Edit: Also, Dural Minor leader?

KillerClowns

Jun 22, 2009, 11:51 PM

I think I might have an idea worthy of being made a Kahdi minor leader's background (humor me on this!) and I've an idea I may or may not expand on for the Dural.

Erebus is a world of many histories. What lies beyond the Age of Rebirth? The Age of Despair, a time of desolation and destruction? Or the Age of Enlightenment, where wise kings rule over a world at peace? Or the Age of Ascension, when the One returns to Erebus and undoes the madness his misguided children caused throughout the aeons? These things are to be decided by great men, doing great deeds. Usually. But sometimes, it is the little things that reshape history.

Kahd sat, finishing his wine and contemplating the primitive little tribe that had accepted his as their god-king. They were pleasant enough people. Eager, ambitious, and ever so malleable for his purposes. His servant, Myrana, a nervous young woman once destined to be the primitive tribe's Oracle, instinctively brought him another glass. He'd told himself he'd have no more on this night; he needed to be awake, aware, ever vigilant. But the wine smelled sweet. Down below, the people were celebrating some pagan festival, that had once honored the unusual looking stone in the center of town. Now it honored Kahd. Would any present a threat? He contemplated having just one more glass, unaware his particular choice would be one of history's great changing points.

One more couldn't possible hurt, could it? He'd worked hard, and Oghma knew he deserved a break. It was fine wine as well, the best the village had to offer. He drank, slowly, savoring the complexities of this wonderful drink. Not quite as good as the best the Amurites had, but it was certainly a fine way to pass an evening.

In the shadows, Garth smiled. The pain was going to stop, now. Camulos wanted Kahd dead. Something about a disagreement with Mammon. Garth didn't care. Camulos had given Garth pain, terrible pain, and Garth wanted it gone. He was a hunter, not an assassin, but he had practiced, anything to convince Camulos to make the pain go away. Garth had never known how good it felt to not be in pain. Wonderful, really. Garth notched an arrow, giggling slightly, and got ready to let it fly.

On another Erebus, Kahd just barely heard the giggle. It was enough to make him turn, to see who sought to mock him. He saw the assassin, and with a few words of power, incinerated him. On another Erebus, Garth and Myrana both faded to obscurity, while Kahd made his mark upon all Erebus.

But not in this Erebus. Kahd was a little too drunk, and decided the sound he heard was an oddity of the wind. Really, who among these primitives would dare attack him? They'd have to be completely mad...

The arrow flew, meeting its mark with terrible precision, and Kahd died. Watching from within his own dark realm, Mammon couldn't believe what he saw. One little disagreement, one small argument, and Camulos saw fit to slay Mammon's new favorite toy? That petty idiot. But maybe things could be salvaged. Mammon looked again. There was Camulos' pet lunatic, who'd dropped his bow and stood in the open, laughing. He'd be no use. And there was that girl. Intended to be an oracle, though she'd not received her first vision before Kahd had arrived and the Oracles were deemed unnecessary. Well, she'd get one now.

Myrana stared at Garth. She recognized him; he'd always been staring at her, in the most disturbing way. And now, he'd dared to kill their benefactor, the mighty Kahd, the one who had sworn to lead them to glory. She grabbed her serving plate, more than heavy enough for the task, and charged. Garth was too busy laughing and enjoying the freedom from agony to offer any resistance; the first blow crushed his skull.

When the rest of the Kahdi examined the commotion, Myrana lay writing in the center of the floor. Kahd was dead, slain by a man whose skull had in turn been crushed by the former Oracle. The villagers gave her distance, still respecting the Stone's power. She stopped, and then, slowly, got up. Her nervous tension had been replaced by a new confidence. One of the elders said, “has the Stone given you a vision? Does it grow angered with our refusal to worship it, to kneel before Kahd? What penance must we pay?” Myrana said, “no. The stone is just that; a stone. Kahd is not dead, He has ascended, for the constraints of a mortal shell were not enough to hold Him. He granted me a vision, a true vision, not the drug-induced trances of my predecessors. I shall lead you in His name. We shall do His will. We shall serve His ideals, wisdom and ambition.” The Kahdi had followed the Oracle's guidance for hundreds of years, throughout the Age of Ice, and though none admitted it, many were happy to return to it once again.

I'd say... Intolerant, Ambitious, and Minor. (May change; I have to check Kahd's attributes quick, but I think Kahd is Intolerant, Ambitious, Arcane.) If you go through with adding her as a minor leader, I could dream up alternative texts for the world-spells (Enlightenment and Corruption) and/or generic ones for Unrestricted Leaders... if it's possible (and it may not be) to choose text based on who the leader is.

I've just realized the hero may be a complication, though. A Kahd clone isn't too creative, and I've not written an archmage here anyways. It'll do, but I'd love a better idea for how a pagan Oracle worshiping Mammon or Oghma could be made into a unit, and it'll mean picking up Arcane won't basically mean you might as well have played as Kahd anyways. Perhaps some sort of Oracular Guard, with decent physical stats, Hero, and either a promo granting Mind Mana affinity (Mammon) or support spells, perhaps Enchantment I and II, and Metamagic I, II, III (Oghma)? It's a rough idea.