im playing on noble, and im having a terrible time trying to just survive!

im just having the worst time figuring things out.

one problem i am having is how do i get industrial citys to grow? i cant get my industrial city past level 5

most of my citys wont grow at all!

another problem i am having is keeping nearby civs friendly

some time into the middle of the game, my research speed just fell, and couldent recover, and my citys are starving!

i have a saved game here, that i was loosing, if anyone has any tips i would greatly appreciate.

screenshots

me staging a counter attack, but while this was happening a second army is on top of me, :(
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/adecoy95/one.jpg
my industrial city
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/adecoy95/two.jpg

http://www.whiterose.org/danil/civ4/posts/adecoy95.jpg

First key point - I've drawn a shape around Amsterdam. That's the "fat cross" - the total circle of tiles that citizens of amsterdam can work. That nice rice farm, for example, can't be worked by any of the citizens in that city.

In fact, you've got four very nice tiles (marked in red and orange) that none of your cities are using. if you were to put a new city on the red and orange square, and replace the fort on the wheat with a farm, you would have almost instantly a very nice production city.


The reasons that your cities aren't growing is that too many tiles that have good food don't have any improvements on them. "Food is life" - as a rule, you normally want to improve green tiles before brown ones. Sometimes, the green tiles are hiding under jungles (which can be cut down once you have discovered Iron Working), but if you were to put cottages on those tiles, your cities could grow again.


The other thing to notice is that you have a lot of very nice land, both inside your borders and just outside it, that you aren't taking advantage of at all. Settlers and Workers are urgent; you can easily settle another 7-10 cities.

Claim the easy land, become the biggest baddest bully on the block, THEN worry about attacking people 25 turns away.

i dident realize jungles hid treasures, on the thing it only says it produces one food : /

try taking the notes from the last post and replaying from the beginning. I think you will find it be easier if the replay the same game. You do have too many tiles that are unimproved, "food is life." Always remember that fact, because without food, you cannot grow (just like in real life;))

I had a quick look at your save. Huge map, 5 or 6 cities at 1500AD, 5 workers, poor city placement (which VOU pointed out). If you are new to the game, it is advisable to play standard size maps, as they play very differently. AIs are closer, and you learn to expand quicker.

At 1500AD on a huge map, you should have 15 good cities at least. Also when choosing city sites, at least one high yield food tile should be in the BFC (which VOU highlighted on Amsterdam), preferably two.

You are at war, and you have very, VERY low unit count. Cathy will probably kill you anyway. In this game, get peace, and start building workers and settlers, and expand. One city should constantly build units, as you are lagging in power to all bar Wan Kon (who is always a weakling). Your stack is a little small too, it looks like the puny thing an ai comes up with in an intercontinental invasion.

I never checked civics, are you using slavery? Use two pop whips to finish buildings and units, then grow to happy cap, and whip when the anger wears off. This is only good with a good food surplus.

You need about 15 worker more, and 10 cities more. Also some cities are not connected, and others are working too many unimproved tiles.

Finally, check the War Academy for strategy articles and drop into Noble's Club XXVIII Gandhi (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=323315) (shameless plug:p) where you can join in, post checkpoints and get advice on what to do. Or just read others games. A good way to learn is to do so with your peers;)

Edit: Use ctrl+R to show resource bubbles, it makes it much easier to see resources

i dident realize jungles hid treasures,

The hidden treasure is a tile that doesn't suck (or at least sucks less).

Civ4 is actually very hard. Each single difficulty level upwards can be a long progressive journey for a lot of us (let's say 20+ games). So if you ARE new do have some fun with the lower difficulty first.

Yep, and chop off the jungles to give yourself more useful tiles. Building farms next to a river is good. (For 1 reason, that is the only place you can build a farm until you get civil service.)

windmills and water wheels seem to add +1 of two resources, if i build a windmill on a tile instead of a farm, is it a better investment? they both say they add +1 food, but windmill usually adds a hammer or a gold

Yes, for now, so it's probably a good idea. I think windmill can only go on hills though. Farms will have other benefits later on. But we don't have to worry about it for now.

Looks like the main issue in this game is drastic under-expansion. You should aim to have at least five cities built before 1 AD on all except the smallest map sizes (and definitely on the larger ones). Past 1500 AD, you should really be looking at 15-20 cities minimum - especially on a map like the one you've chosen, with so much available land!

So the best advice I can probably offer is to build more Settlers. Also, I suggest you click the sixth button from the left above the minimap (the second button from the right), which makes the positions of resources a lot clearer - as you can see in VoiceOfUnreason's screenshot. Try to settle near as many of these resources as possible! Check the civilopedia (top right button on the game screen) if you're not sure what a particular resource does - I think it'll help a lot in making you realise just how good they can be. :)

Aside from that, I suggest reading a few walkthroughs of Civ4 to give you a better feel for the game. In particular, Sisiutil's Strategy Guide for Beginners (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165632) is an excellent document - well worth the time to check out if you're relatively new to Civ4 (and even if you're not!). :)

1) Growing cities need food!: Food comes from farms which provide +1 food to the underlying terrain. Your production city is not growing because it has no farms. Take your 1 worker, build more, and farm those two jungle tiles ASAP. Switch the citizen off the gold mine to the new farm when built and that will increase food income by +3. You have lots of cottages, which can be good, but you also have very few farms to feed the citizens to work them.

2) You're not building the right things in your cities: Why are you building a capitol in your production city when you have a perfectly good capitol 7 tiles to the south! Plus, you have an unnecessary aquaduct and theatre in your production city, and the only production building, the forge, has not even been built.

3) You need to build settlers and workers STAT!: You have way to few cities and too much unsettled land. There is no need to invade the AI's a long distance away when you have perfectly good unused territory next door. Workers are also very important, you should have at least 1 or as many as two workers per city.

4) Put your limited military to good use: I noticed that Amsterdam has no military unit in it. You need to have at least 1 military unit in every city or you will have additional unhappiness there. Place your military units in your newly settled cities.

NPM

windmills and water wheels seem to add +1 of two resources, if i build a windmill on a tile instead of a farm, is it a better investment? they both say they add +1 food, but windmill usually adds a hammer or a gold

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If your city has food problems, then a farm is the best build. If your city has production problems, then build a watermill or a workshop is best. Windmills can only be built on hills, but most of the time you will want to mine these. Windmills are only really useful to provide more food than mines if you city has few good farm sites.

In general:

Grassland farm: 3:food: (biology adds +1 food to this)
Grassland watermill: 2:food:1:hammers:1:commerce:(RP (replaceable parts) adds +1 hammers, EL (electricity) +2 commerce)
Grassland cottage: 2:food:1:commerce: (this site will increase commerce when used - up to +7 :commerce: with Printing Press and Free Speech)
Grassland workshop: 1:food:1:hammers: (Guilds, Chemistry, and Caste System all add +1 hammer; State Property +1 food)
Grassland hill windmill: 2:food:1:hammers:1:commerce: (RP adds +1 hammer, EL +1 commerce)
Grassland hill mine: 1:food:3:hammers: (RR (railroad) adds +1 hammer)

Plains farm: 2:food:1:hammers: (biology adds +1 food to this)
Plains watermill: 1:food:2:hammers:1:commerce:(RP adds +1 hammer, EL +2 commerce)
Plains cottage: 1:food:1:hammers:1:commerce: (this site will increase commerce when used - up to +7 :commerce: with Printing Press and Free Speech)
Plains workshop: 2:hammers: (Guilds, Chemistry, and Caste System all add +1 hammer; State Property +1 food)
Plains hill windmill: 1:food:2:hammers:1:commerce: (RP adds +1 hammer, EL +1 commerce)
Plains hill mine: 4:hammers: (RR adds +1 hammer)

Tundra and Ice sites are much worse to use unless they have specials on them.

Notice that only the grassland farm adds food to your city, other tiles are food neutral (2 food) or cost food to use (1 food or none). This is because citizens (population in your cities) cost 2 food.

NPM

Also note that :health: is not the same thing as :food:. Adding :health: to a city by building aqueducts, grocers, graneries, etc. can only increase growth if :yuck: is greater than the current :health: of a city. Extra :health: over the :yuck: limit is worthless.

NPM

One very basic thing I noticed... since you said you didn't realize that jungle "hid treasures"...

When you begin a game, hit Ctrl+R. This toggles the resource display, which pops up handy pictures of them wherever they appear. This should help you discern where to place your cities where they can be most advantageous.

These tiles should always be developed by a worker ASAP, and used by your city ASAP. Build more workers!!!

Other than that, everyone has offered great advice so far.

Maybe you should try and play the tutorial.

You might also drop down to an easier level while you learn the game - Noble is playing at an even level with the AI (neither of you get any particular bonuses/penalties), which is a fine starting point once you have a handle on how the game works. What you might also want to do is to play some duel maps (after the tutorial as mentioned), as the much smaller map makes for a fast game where you can learn what works and doesn't relatively quickly. You only have a few cities to deal with, and will soon meet the AI, so if you are making the wrong choices you will quickly find out. Playing Huge maps means that you are mostly playing in a sandbox until the later part of the game, and then suddenly you find you are massively behind in development/tech/military.

The main problem with the gameplay that I can detect is food - his cities don't nearly have enough of it.

I'd say that food is the foremost priority in Civ because food is what gives you pop points, and pop points is your most basic resource.

Concentrate on founding cities that have at least one, preferrably two food resources that the citizens can work. Then improve and work those tiles first.

Floodplains are very food-rich and can count as special resources for this purpose. Once you know how to predict and control city growth blindfolded, you will probably win this level, since everything else seems to be adequate.

The hidden treasure is a tile that doesn't suck (or at least sucks less).

The worst tiles that can possibly be under a jungle is a basic grassland tile. That's a decent tile! Anything else and it's only better.

The drawback is that it takes time/effort to clear jungle.

wow, alot of great replys, thanks for all the advice!

ill try to find time to play a new game today, and i will let everyone know how i did :D

I also noticed the fort on the wheat outside of the cross. This sceams 'automated workers'. As a rule do not ever, ever, ever (unless you're one of the diety level players on the board) automate workers. This is probably why your land is improved so poorly.

I also noticed the fort on the wheat outside of the cross. This sceams 'automated workers'. As a rule do not ever, ever, ever (unless you're one of the diety level players on the board) automate workers. This is probably why your land is improved so poorly.
You can't say "don't automate" unless you provide a guide to improvements that is better than the AI.

Anyway, the AI is smart enough to chop jungle, which proves he didn't automate.

You can't say "don't automate" unless you provide a guide to improvements that is better than the AI.
Wow, dude, crazy ninja post editing there. :lol:

Anyway, there's a great guide to improvements in the game. You just press F12 and navigate to the relevant section. I use it all the time. ;)

i only automated trade routes, i dont really care where idle workers build roads, as long as they get built.... but i dident realize untill late in this game that they were building forts everywhere too

i only automated trade routes, i dont really care where idle workers build roads, as long as they get built.... but i dident realize untill late in this game that they were building forts everywhere too

Build Trade Network is more than just roads and railroads. Workers also build the necessary tile improvement for every resource inside your borders. If that resource happens to be outside of a city's fat cross, then they will build a fort on it.

i had no idea, when you say resources, do you mean like corn/rice etc?

just a quick recap

on another note, i thought i would try out some xfire features, im going to give a new game a try, if you want to join in and see whats going on, im hosting a live broadcast, located here

http://www.xfire.com/live_video/adecoy95/

i should be playing for a few hours before i get sleepy.

stop in :D

i had no idea, when you say resources, do you mean like corn/rice etc?

That is what 'resources' means, yes. Basically, when you press Ctrl+R, every little bubble that comes up is indicating a resource.

This is distinct from 'tile yields', which resource tiles but also most other tiles in the game give.

That is what 'resources' means, yes. Basically, when you press Ctrl+R, every little bubble that comes up is indicating a resource.

This is distinct from 'tile yields', which resource tiles but also most other tiles in the game give.

ah ok, cool.

this is my savegame for now, i think my cities are doing better, i built tons of farms xD

i also disabled tech trading in this game, to try and slow down the ai some

The fat cross is a 5x5 square minus the corners.

You can't say "don't automate" unless you provide a guide to improvements that is better than the AI.

Anyway, the AI is smart enough to chop jungle, which proves he didn't automate.

True I realized I didn't say what I meant which was he used automate build trade network. As for a guide to improvements that is better than the AI; let's see if I can imitate you:

Build farms to get food where you need it. Build cottages to get commerce (science/gold/culture/espionage) when you need it. Build mines and workshops when you need hammers. Build resource specific improvements (farms for agriculuture, pasture for livestock, plantation for calander resources (dye,spices,silk,sugar,etc) when you get the neccesary resource. ((Free of Extranious Information, right? ;) ))

A good distinction is between 'green tiles' and 'brown tiles'. It takes 2 food to keep 1 tile worked (or a specialist if you are running them) so if a tile has 2 food then when you work it the civilian pays for itself foodwise. Beceause of this health and food are the limiting factors for city size. Many of your cities are built with tons of plains which only provide 1 food; and with no corn/rice/pigs/fish/clams etc you don't have the surplus food to run brown tiles. Not that every city has to have the 20 tiles in the BFC (Big Fat Cross, the tiles a city can work) worked; usually you build optimal cities that get anywhere from 16+ tiles worked, then you settle secondary cities to work important tiles that could not fit in your main cities, these will only work from 6-12 tiles usually. There is a good article in the war academy that I basically stole this infromation from. You should check it out.

Link to the article?

Certainly a quick search found what I was looking for.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/gettingthemost.php

i think my cities are doing better, i built tons of farms xD


Just be careful not to overbuild farms. Cottages are useful too. For a beginner, having a 50/50 mix of farms and cottages is a good rule, unless you want a specialized city.

NPM

True I realized I didn't say what I meant which was he used automate build trade network. As for a guide to improvements that is better than the AI; let's see if I can imitate you:

Build farms to get food where you need it. Build cottages to get commerce (science/gold/culture/espionage) when you need it. Build mines and workshops when you need hammers. Build resource specific improvements (farms for agriculuture, pasture for livestock, plantation for calander resources (dye,spices,silk,sugar,etc) when you get the neccesary resource. ((Free of Extranious Information, right? ;) ))


are you sure that the trade network automation only builds roads and railroads? I mean, I think I've had my trade network automated workers also build those forts on aluminium and iron mines for example... Maybe it happens after there's at least a single road/railroad connection between all cities...

that is, no more trade network building is "possible"?

but thanks for the info, I never knew that railroads also give bonus to mines :eek:
But I've built them quite regularly to my lumbermills though.

I don't know why I tend to keep my forests around, especially those that aren't on rivers, I tend to chop only those woods that I can replace in the future with watermills
:blush:

in the very early game plains/forest seems to be better tile than any that would replace it though. unless you're caste society and build grassland/workshops, then it should be the same (with workshop getting bonuses at guilds and somewhere else as well...)

When trade network is automated, workers will improve any resource with the appropriate improvement. If a mine had been built on, say alu, and its outside of any city's BFC, then they will replace that mine with the appropriate improvement, the fort. This is quite useful, as bombing runs and maybe even spies are not as effective at removing them.

you still get the corporation bonuses for example if the mine gets replaced this way?

Laurwin, a fort in BtS does everything a resource-specific improvement does, except it doesn't give you the yield bonus.

Laurwin, a fort in BtS does everything a resource-specific improvement does, except it doesn't give you the yield bonus.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Are you saying that when the AI builds a fort on top of the resource outside your BFCs then you gain access to it as a trade resource? If this were to be true than there would be nothing wrong with auto-roading when you unlock railroads (if your workers have nothing better to do).

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Are you saying that when the AI builds a fort on top of the resource outside your BFCs then you gain access to it as a trade resource? If this were to be true than there would be nothing wrong with auto-roading when you unlock railroads (if your workers have nothing better to do).
I'm not being sarcastic at all. :confused: If the resource is in your borders, then yes, a Fort grants you access to the resource (as in you can trade the resource and you get :)/:health:/:hammers: bonuses from it). The whole reason they build Forts if it's not in a BFC is because if it's outside a BFC then you can't work the tile anyway, so the yield bonus from the resource-specific improvement is wasted; so they might as well put an improvement there that will allow you to defend the resource while still gaining all its bonuses.

I don't even have BtS and I know this.

I still think the auto trade workers make a poor choice in building forts however, as forts take much longer to build than the relevant improvement. Do they build forts over oil before combustion btw?
Shame auto workers don't prebuild forts under existing improvments, that would be a very handy feature!

@Comrade forts in BTS can do a lot of useful things, ranging from connecting resource to acting as ports for overseas trade to working as ship canals. Theres a guide here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308069). The most rare useful job for them in my experience is oddly enough land combat.

I still think the auto trade workers make a poor choice in building forts however, as forts take much longer to build than the relevant improvement. Do they build forts over oil before combustion btw?
Shame auto workers don't prebuild forts under existing improvments, that would be a very handy feature!

@Comrade forts in BTS can do a lot of useful things, ranging from connecting resource to acting as ports for overseas trade to working as ship canals. Theres a guide here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308069). The most rare useful job for them in my experience is oddly enough land combat.

omg, million dollar question, do you need the combustion tech literally for tanks or is it just access to oil resource and industrialism tech? :eek:

okay so I checked civilopedia and it said as requirements only: rifling, industrialism, and oil, wonder if it works though... the fort on oil thing...

omg, million dollar question, do you need the combustion tech literally for tanks or is it just access to oil resource and industrialism tech? :eek:

okay so I checked civilopedia and it said as requirements only: rifling, industrialism, and oil, wonder if it works though... the fort on oil thing...
The fort won't access the oil before combustion anyway, I meant it would be nice for auto workers to slap one on top for access to oil the turn its researched, which I don't think they do... :lol:.
You can make tanks with oil and no combustion, but good luck etting trades that arent vassals. Gotta wonder what makes those tanks go though!

uhm, but oil is revealed by scientific method right? Sure you can research industrialism without combustion?

I still think the auto trade workers make a poor choice in building forts however, as forts take much longer to build than the relevant improvement.
Except Oil wells... they take a comparative amount of time to build to Forts.

uhm, but oil is revealed by scientific method right? Sure you can research industrialism without combustion?
No, Industrialism doesn't require Combustion (it's Plastic that does).

I'm pretty sure your workers DO build forts on top of oil as soon as you discover it.

well I tested it today, the fort on oil trick does save you the worker action for the well that would only be available by combustion, so fort on oil does give you the oil immediately after combustion tech.

well I tested it today, the fort on oil trick does save you the worker action for the well that would only be available by combustion, so fort on oil does give you the oil immediately after combustion tech.
Yep, indeed. It's great for saving time when you urgently need to get out an oil-based navy (or tanks/planes). :)