Here are some ideas I've been piecing together about adding a little more flavor, balancing civ strengths and adding alternatives to weaknesses. I deliberately tried adding more stuff since, after all, these are mostly ideas. I gave some though to balancing but I haven't played nearly enough Planetfall to be able to tell how it will play in an actual game.

Lord's Believers

Civilization Trait: Fundamentalist

Bases store 10% of :food: after growth
Bases have +50% defense against :espionage:

UB: Believer Headquarters (Headquarters)

+1 :)
-1 Planet Attitude

UU: Shaper (Former)

Cost: 45:hammers: (instead of 60)
+20% work rate
-50% upkeep for damaged units
cannot be captured


Miriam

Charismatic
Strong

Morgan Industries

Civilization Trait: Corporate

+1 :traderoute:
+100% :traderoute: yield
+20% maintenance

UB: Corporate Headquarters (Headquarters)

+10% energy

UU: Industry Scout (Scout Patrol)

Better results from unity pods


Morgan

Efficient
Industrious

Gaia's Stepdaughters

Civilization Trait: Ecologist

Bases have +2 Planet Attitude

UB: Gaian Roots (Headquarters)

+10% to production of Colony Pod and Sea Colony Pod

UU: Planeteer (Invitro)

Cost: 70:hammers: (instead of 60)
+50% attack in Xenofungus
+50% attack in Hybrid Forest
+25% defense in Xenofungus
+25% defense in Hybrid Forest

UU: Crafter (Former)

-20% work rate

UU: Aquacrafter (Aquaformer)

-20% work rate


Dierdre

Efficient
Defensive

The Human Hive

Civilization Trait: Despotism

+10% :hammers:
+20% defense against :espionage:
-10% :gp:

UB: Hive Headquarters (Headquarters)

-50% war :mad:

UU: Sentinal (Chopper)

Unit starts with +1 free special ability slot


Yang

Disciplined
Prepared

U.N. Peacekeeping Forces

Civilization Trait: Humanitarian

-10% maintenance in all bases
+20% war :mad:
+10% non-military production

UB: U.N. Headquarters (Headquarters)

+10% secret project production
-10% military production

UU: Peacekeeper (Infantry)

+10% base defense
Garrisoned base 20% less likely to revolt
This unit cannot be upgraded and is never obsolete


Lal

Charismatic
Defensive

Spartan Federation

Civilization Trait: Survivalist

Garrisoned units have +15% PSI defense
Garrisoned units provide +1 :)

UB: Base Headquarters (Headquarters)

+50% defense

UU: Scout Rover (Rover)

+10% chance to withdraw from combat
This unit does not count for maintenance purposes


Santiago

Disciplined
Strong

University of Planet

Civilization Trait: Scientist

+10% :science:
-20% :espionage:

UB: University Headquarters (Headquarters)

+1 :traderoute:
+10% :science:
+20% :espionage:

UU: Science Team (Probe Team)

Double movement in Flat Arid
Double movement in Flat Moist
Double movement in Flat Rainy


Zakharov

Industrious
Prepared

Here are the explanations of the leader traits.

Charismatic

+1 :) in each city
Food riots and revolts 20% less likely
+25% production of Recreation Commons

Defensive

All units start with the Defensive promotion

+15% combat while inside cultural borders
-10% attack while outside cultural borders

+25% production of Perimeter Defense

Disciplined

All units start with the Disciplined promotion
-10% war :mad: in all cities
+25% production of Punishment Sphere and Bioenhancement Center

Efficient

+1:commerce: on all plots with at least 4:commerce:
-50% Ultraponics maintenance
+25% production of Recycling Tanks

Industrious

-40% cost of upgrading a unit
+40 to starting energy
+25% production of Maintenance Bay and Assembly Hall

Prepared

-1 xp/level needed for promotion
+25% production of Command Center

Strong

+25% :culture: in all bases
+10% military production


I've also been playing around with bad leader traits for minor leaders or to mix up gameplay a bit. All leaders can start with two civ traits and a randomly selected bad one.

Subordinate

-5% :science: :gold: :espionage: in all bases

Stubborn

Double the number of turns between civic changes
-10% production

Inept

+1 :mad: in all cities

Corrupt

+10% maintenance in all bases
+100% Ultraponics maintenance
Production does not overflow

Indecisive

+100% anarchy duration
+100% chance for a food riot or base revolt

Beaurocratic

+25% maintenance for number of bases
-10% production of special projects

Pacifist

All infantry units start with the Pacifist promotion

-1 attack strength

+20% war :mad:

As you read in the other thread, there's no need to think in the vanilla mindset of "1 civ = 2 leader trait, one UU, one UB".

Generally speaking, all your suggestions are good to keep in mind, but they all kinda fall in the category of minor mathematical boni. None strike me as stuff that would significantly affect how a faction's playstyle feels like.

Many nice ideas and IMO, even numerical (dis)advantages can affect your playstyle a lot...however, there is one thing I would really dislike to have:

Corrupt
* +10% maintenance in all bases
* +100% Ultraponics maintenance
* Production does not overflow

That would kill one of the best MM-reducing improvements Civ4 brought compared to Civ3...the no longer need to MM tiles to avoid waste when completing something...

Many nice ideas and IMO, even numerical (dis)advantages can affect your playstyle a lot...

I certainly agree.
An idea: instance of immediately suggesting concrete faction benefits, how about we try to define how we want a game with a faction to feel like? We can then try to translate that general feeling into game concepts.

Anyway, here's some stuff I've thought of in the meanwhile:

For the Spartans: they should have a quality army, and should be able to operate well in small battle groups. So instead of their current Combat I promotion, I figured they could get:
+1 first strike (from other thread)
+5% bombard damage
+10% healing speed in neutral and enemy territory
+10% withdrawal chance

That way they don't need lots of support units to succesfully invade someone (every unit can reduce base defenses), and the healing bonus will also help both in invasions and exploration. Each unit is a self-sufficient battle unit.


For the Hive:

+1:hammers: in squares with 4:hammers: (advanced heavy industry)
+1 mineral from every Drone and Labourer

+:hammers: for every Labourer means all new bases would start with an extra mineral for free though. I don't want ICS to always be the best strategy for the Hive, so I'd compensate this benefit by increasing their colony pod cost by 40, to 160.

Some ideas to create large armies of weak units:

Orc Warrens: for every infantry built, you get a copy for free, but it doesn't have any XP or special ability slots.

Every infantry unit starts with a promotion that gives it -20% strength.

The Hive's 'Chichen Itza' bonus gets further increased. Because infantry units are the only ones who can profit well from plot defense, infantry would still be the best choice for base defense. For offensive actions the Hive would need to rely on bombardment units to soften the enemy before the infantry moves on.

Boreholes, greenhouses and mines in Hive territory can only be pillaged by psi units (because these improvements are underground). This further allows the Hive to concentrate on static defense without much harm as a consequence.

Sorry, I just noticed this thread, my recent post in the V8 feedback should be here instead.

Boreholes, greenhouses and mines in Hive territory can only be pillaged by psi units (because these improvements are underground). This further allows the Hive to concentrate on static defense without much harm as a consequence.

Greenhouses wouldn't work well underground :p (Even with piped in sunlight via fiber optic cable, you couldn't get anywhere near as much light as a greenhouse on the surface).

Your other ideas are very interesting though.

I figured their greenhouse algae would use other energy sources, geothermal for instance.

How about some terrain-specific faction differences:

Due to requiring extensive bedrock, Hive can found bases built into Ridge tiles (with all the benefits of terrain defense and a difficult tactical approach), but not in Flat Moist or Flat Rainy terrain.

(In the Warhammer mod Subterranean races can only found cities in Hills, this didn't turn out nearly as painful as I expected :p)

For the Believers, I see their mindset as "We've found the paradise that God intended for us and we will make it that way". With such a mindset, they should be the premier terraforming faction and benefit the most from terraforming.

I see their bonuses/maluses as:
-1 planet in each base (don't care about getting along with planet)
25% faster at clearing fungus (fungus is a blight)
33% less likely for fungal bloom within their territory (notice the signs and sometimes able to stop an erruption)
+1 mindworm/IOD on each fungal bloom within their territory (offset the above, when planet manages to bloom in their territory it knows it needs to hold it)
+1 :commerce: from settlements
+1 :food: and +2 :commerce: from edens

When running the terraforming civic they can slowly turn their forests into gardens giving +.25 :health: (+.75 :health: total)

Overall they will end up with about 5/6 (2/3 the blooms * 5/4 the native life) the total amount of native life, but the attacks will be about 50% more dangerous since the number of units that stay stationary will remain at 2.

For the Believers, I see their mindset as "We've found the paradise that God intended for us and we will make it that way". With such a mindset, they should be the premier terraforming faction and benefit the most from terraforming.



I'm not sure I see Believers as automatically being Edenists or Anti planet. I think the pro-Planet/Anti-Planet decision should be one that's not automatic for any Factions other than the Gaians. My idea for the Believers would be to give them their religion at the start of the game and have them get benefits from spreading it and, when the AI is controlling them extra hatred of factions with other religions. Also they shouldn't be able to switch religions or use the consensus civic. To deal with other religions, they should have a unique unit of inquisitors to remove other religions.
I know this is very different than the way they are designed now, but I think its more interesting than just having them be the Terraformer faction.

I intend to let the Believers start with the Edenism religion.

Due to requiring extensive bedrock, Hive can found bases built into Ridge tiles (with all the benefits of terrain defense and a difficult tactical approach), but not in Flat Moist or Flat Rainy terrain.

I kinda like the idea, but base graphics don't work on Ridges. That's why I don't allow founding bases there, not for any gameplay reasons.

Regarding more rules in general on base founding, earlier in Planetfall's development, it was not allowed to build bases on Rocky, but I got questions from people why they sometimes couldn't found bases. So too many rules and restrictions seems too confusing.

I intend to let the Believers start with the Edenism religion.


Are you saying you're going to make them start with it, or are you emphasizing that you want them to be tied to terraforming?
How wed are you to the tight connection to the Believer's religion and an emphasis on terraforming? I think it would make more sense for the Lord's Believers to be focused on belief in God, rather than a belief that Planet should be remade in Earth's image. It doesn't eliminate conflicts between religions; the Believers would still have problems with all the other religions. For example, the Believer religion would see the VoP religion as an obvious case of the worship of false idols.

The problem with forcing the Believers to be Terraformers is that they automatically have two enemies: the Gaians (and any other factions that choose Hybrid) and Planet. I've found it almost impossible to play the Believers, and the AI doesn't seem to do much better.

Morganites.
Consider giving them bonus food and hammers from trade routes, as well as big trade route commerce bonuses and bonus trade routes. I agree with your point earlier about encouraging them to try to maintain open borders with as many civs as possible, this is a good way to encourage it.

How wed are you to the tight connection to the Believer's religion and an emphasis on terraforming?

Very.
I can't imagine the University or Hive following a religion centered on a belief in God. I can imagine them being guided by the goal to turn Planet into Earth's image.

Very.
I can't imagine the University or Hive following a religion centered on a belief in God. I can imagine them being guided by the goal to turn Planet into Earth's image.

Are you saying that the Believers wouldn't be able to spread their belief in God, but would be able to spread a belief in reshaping Planet? I think it would still be possible to spread the religion to the populace, but it might end up being a destabilizing influence. Similar to the issues China has with many religious groups today. The unrest it would cause with the populace would be reflected by the existing "We want religious freedom!" unhappiness effects. In fact the penalties for certain religions (perhaps VoP and Belief in God) could be greater for certain Civs (University and Hive).

Are you saying that the Believers wouldn't be able to spread their belief in God, but would be able to spread a belief in reshaping Planet?I think the problem is a bit the name "religion" due to the Believers strong connection of religion. I tend to view Planetfall's religions more as "ideologies" (though that word is also intertwined with the ideologies of the factions) or "value framework". Less dogmatic than the word religion.

Edenism isn't so much a religion, for me, but rather the deep belief that the correct course of action for humanity is adapting the planet to its needs. Believers may interpret this as the conclave biblical holy land, university may see it as "progress is the future", Gaians may even see it as creating a garden to enhance planet's variety (which they can even do, as their positive planet value can lessen the sting of terraforming, as long as you don't overdo it).

Similar for, let's say Voice of the Planet - University may see it as a scientifically motivated grand experiment to study Planet and so forth.

Cheers, LT.

Gaians may even see it as creating a garden to enhance planet's variety (which they can even do, as their positive planet value can lessen the sting of terraforming, as long as you don't overdo it).

Yeah I kinda imagine that before they knew that there existed something called Planetmind, the Gaians would be strong Edenist supporters, and Deirdre would be good buddies with Miriam.

Imagine the story potential! Former friends turn into sworn enemies.

So if you're going to use these ideologies, perhaps the AI shouldn't be programmed to always go to the same ones. This would give games more variety. Also, it would make the game less predictable. As is, Diedre and Miriam tend to go all out for VoP and Edenism, respectively, so I don't go for these ideologies if I'm not playing them.

I think the problem is a bit the name "religion" due to the Believers strong connection of religion. I tend to view Planetfall's religions more as "ideologies" (though that word is also intertwined with the ideologies of the factions) or "value framework". Less dogmatic than the word religion.

Edenism isn't so much a religion, for me, but rather the deep belief that the correct course of action for humanity is adapting the planet to its needs. Believers may interpret this as the conclave biblical holy land, university may see it as "progress is the future", Gaians may even see it as creating a garden to enhance planet's variety (which they can even do, as their positive planet value can lessen the sting of terraforming, as long as you don't overdo it).

Similar for, let's say Voice of the Planet - University may see it as a scientifically motivated grand experiment to study Planet and so forth.

Cheers, LT.

That's the critical point IMO - are we talking of religions or ideologies?

I am still trying to improve this part of the leaderheads (now that I have figured out how the "different religion" modifiers exactly work) and I have some cool ideas...but I always run into that question. Hive or University are the best examples...it does not make sense to let them care about religions at all, but things change if we have ideologies.

That's the critical point IMO - are we talking of religions or ideologies?

It depends on the faction. Gaians or Believers would see stuff in religious terms; the Hive and University in ideological/philosophical terms.

It depends on the faction. Gaians or Believers would see stuff in religious terms; the Hive and University in ideological/philosophical terms.
Perhaps the in-game term should be changed to make that clearer, because right now, it just "feels" wrong to have strongly religious University/Morgan or so - but as ideology/philosophy, it would make perfect sense.

Since ideology is sort of taken by the factions themselves, what about something like "paradigm"? Could fit, as it describes a thought pattern or conceptual framework in general, which fits well.

Cheers, LT.

It depends on the faction. Gaians or Believers would see stuff in religious terms; the Hive and University in ideological/philosophical terms.

Makes sense. However this distinction in view can't be used in the game (at least not with the leaderhead.xml; all you can do is set how big the initial impact is, how big the impact overtime can be and how fast the latter sets it)...so the next question is, if the ideological/phislosophical view would be as fanatic. It would be also possible to create variation by making some leaders especially tolerant (just lower values for different ideology without increasing the positive effect) or ones which don't like you a lot for sharing their view, but hating you for being different.

And if Gaians, Believers, Hive and University care a lot for this things...then I would say the other three shouldn't - I could imagine something along these lines: Morgan wouldn't care either way (same or different religion gives no bonus/malus, he is just interested in making profit), Lal would like you a bit better if you share his religion, but he would be tolerant if you differ (no penalty), while Santiago would mainly feel threatened by a difference (without a lot impact, if you share her view)
I think for Morgan and Lal civics should matter more...and for Santiago... I would love to emphasize her militaristic character even more (e.g. likes you for shared wars).

It would be also possible to create variation by making some leaders especially tolerant (just lower values for different ideology without increasing the positive effect) or ones which don't like you a lot for sharing their view, but hating you for being different.

Is this already possible in the XML?

Is this already possible in the XML?

Yes. Another thing I would like to change is how fast the attitude drops or improves - I think the more passionate leaders should react faster (thats also already in the XML, just not used by BtS)

Makes sense. However this distinction in view can't be used in the game (at least not with the leaderhead.xml; all you can do is set how big the initial impact is, how big the impact overtime can be and how fast the latter sets it)...so the next question is, if the ideological/phislosophical view would be as fanatic. It would be also possible to create variation by making some leaders especially tolerant (just lower values for different ideology without increasing the positive effect) or ones which don't like you a lot for sharing their view, but hating you for being different.

And if Gaians, Believers, Hive and University care a lot for this things...then I would say the other three shouldn't - I could imagine something along these lines: Morgan wouldn't care either way (same or different religion gives no bonus/malus, he is just interested in making profit), Lal would like you a bit better if you share his religion, but he would be tolerant if you differ (no penalty), while Santiago would mainly feel threatened by a difference (without a lot impact, if you share her view)
I think for Morgan and Lal civics should matter more...and for Santiago... I would love to emphasize her militaristic character even more (e.g. likes you for shared wars).

Cool ideas! I think the Believers would care the most (the ideology gets incorporated into the religion) if you believe the same or differ. I don't really see the University as being any more ideological than the Morganites. Also, perhaps the unhappiness penalties of multiple ideologies in a city should be larger for factions that care more.

Yes. Another thing I would like to change is how fast the attitude drops or improves - I think the more passionate leaders should react faster (thats also already in the XML, just not used by BtS)

AFAIK the reason why Firaxis added a couple turns before you get the full bonus/penalty for religion sharing/differences, is to discourage frequent religion switching. The more passionate leaders would not look well upon ideological flipfloppers, so I would argue it should take MORE time with them before you reach the maximum positive relationship bonus. That eventual bonus should of course be higher than the leaders who don't care as much.

AFAIK the reason why Firaxis added a couple turns before you get the full bonus/penalty for religion sharing/differences, is to discourage frequent religion switching. The more passionate leaders would not look well upon ideological flipfloppers, so I would argue it should take MORE time with them before you reach the maximum positive relationship bonus. That eventual bonus should of course be higher than the leaders who don't care as much.

I haven't looked at it this way, but what you say makes perfectly sense for the relation bonus. For the malus OTOH, I would prefer to do it the other way - Miriam or Deidre should get quickly mad if you leave "the way".

An idea: instance of immediately suggesting concrete faction benefits, how about we try to define how we want a game with a faction to feel like? We can then try to translate that general feeling into game concepts.

Let me try a stab on the Peacekeepers:

I see this faction as doing well on the life sciences, therefore:
Increased (double?) production time for some of the earlier facilities that give extra health (infirmary, hydro plant, research hospital, and the rec commons too :yup:).
Transport-capable units get a free medic promotion.
Increased healing speed for damaged units in friendly territory.
Increased war-wariness for when going to war with a faction which is using favourite civic(s) of the Peacekeepers.

This way their population could be growing a bit faster, and the medic stuff reflects their humanitarian nature in saving lifes whenever possible by keeping adequate equipment around where-ever there's sufficient cargo space.

The Gaians could take the Planet approach:
Or +1 Planet Value or double Planet Value (that green heart icon) for every building that gives extra Planet Value.
+5% Psi Defense (the thing that Hypnotic Trance promo offers) for all non-mechanical units. That's for bred native life and infantry units thus.
-5% :espionage point cost for probe team actions. Call it a side-effect of empathy. ;)
Centauri Ecology grants +1 :food: to the Fungus plots in base range.

Let me try a stab on the Peacekeepers:
Transport-capable units get a free medic promotion.

Don't most (all?) of them get this already?

Increased war-wariness for when going to war with a faction which is using favourite civic(s) of the Peacekeepers.

I'd say increased war-weariness period. The word "peace" is in their name after all.

The Gaians could take the Planet approach: +1 Planet Value or double Planet Value (that green heart icon) for every building that gives extra Planet Value.

Having just finished a full game as the Gaians, I can safely say that increasing the Planet friendly bonus in any way would probably be early overkill and late unnecessary. I finished the game with an 8 something Planet rating, which would have been double digits if I hadn't started next to the borehole cluster.

Centauri Ecology grants +1 :food: to the Fungus plots in base range.

Fungus includes Hybrid Forests, right? This would be a welcome addition to anyone playing Hybrid.

I haven't looked at it this way, but what you say makes perfectly sense for the relation bonus. For the malus OTOH, I would prefer to do it the other way - Miriam or Deidre should get quickly mad if you leave "the way".

Yeah I agree.

Increased healing speed for damaged units in friendly territory.

Sounds good. I definitely need to give the Peacekeepers a unique building replacing the Genejack Factory. I could let that building give increased healing.

The Gaians could take the Planet approach:
[LIST] Or +1 Planet Value or double Planet Value (that green heart icon) for every building that gives extra Planet Value.
+5% Psi Defense (the thing that Hypnotic Trance promo offers) for all non-mechanical units. That's for bred native life and infantry units thus.

The same gameplay effect is already reached by their current +2 Planet as far as I can see.

-5% :espionage point cost for probe team actions. Call it a side-effect of empathy. ;)

I was thinking I could add a Psion unit which used your total accumulated Planet (same value which determines if you can capture native life) to perform certain espionage missions.

Centauri Ecology grants +1 :food: to the Fungus plots in base range.[/QUOTE]

That does not fit with the intention to keep Hybrid bases generally at a relatively small size.

Don't most (all?) of them get this already?

I intend to remove that though. :mischief: However while increased healing in their territory fits for the Peacekeepers, also giving them faster healing outside their territory, might make them too good at warfare.

Well, I suppose one out of eight proposed items isn't bad to be included in the mod... :mischief:

It's more than most people get. :mischief:

Great thread title.

Re the earlier discussion, Movements may be a better description than Religions. Some are clearly philosophies, and atheist ones at that (e.g. Homo Superior). None requires belief in a supernatural force. They resemble religions in the sense that they provide followers and factions with a sense of meaning.

I like L T's suggestion of "Paradigm". sounds science-fictiony.

Speaking of the within-territory healing increase, it should also be doable for a faction/building/resource etc to decrease the healing rate of enemy units within their territory (a la FFH Entropy Mana). Anyone think of interesting ways something like this would fit the fluff - perhaps underground Hive resistance menaces supply lines to prevent attackers from healing in the field, or Gaian Hybrid Forest lightly damages invading units?

Here's an idea I think would be worth trying to make faction gameplay really unique :

Faction-dependent bonuses or penalties from running the economy at a certain % of gold/science/influence/espionage.

Morgan would want to take at least some % as profit for capital formation, and not be content with plowing 100% of his revenue into research no matter how many trade routes he has. He can still choose to spend heavily on science/espionage/etc when the situation warrants, but not without some discontent on the Board of Directors..

Miriam would get a bonus (perhaps extra :) in cities) from investing at least a certain % in influence to Spread The Word. Intensive science spending or dividend reinvestment, not as appealing for her.

Contrarily, if Zakharov runs things well enough to afford keeping science spending maxed out, the Faculty is delighted with his leadership and give him a free hand with his policies. If the University budget drops below 50% science to meet near term gold/influence/espionage goals, the Faculty start to bitterly complain about the time and resources being diverted from their true calling.

Its a dramatic enough gameplay tweak (yet achievable and familiar to Civ4, in effect the existing Theater mechanic in vanilla Civ) that it could be worth giving it a try. Perpetually slogging the slider at whatever max % science you can happen to afford has been a no-brainer generic decision for far too long. Whaddaya think?