Hi folks!

Following a discussion with Ahwaric, I create this thread for us to talk about tweaking the espionage system. Ahwaric brought it back in Orbis but it still feels incomplete, so...

On my part, I have really few ideas. I don't see how espionage could be made interesting right now. I'm sure it's possible, though...

Here's my thoughts off the top of my head:

* Rename Espionage Points to Intrigue Points (Flavour) Give them a random factor each turn and hide the numbers from the player.
* Keep the passive missions as is. No need to reinvent the wheel.
* Active Missions can only be performed by Envoys and Spies. Spies may be upgraded to Assassins (or civ-specific Assassin) units like a normal unit. Spies should remain hidden except via Deis Dei and other Spies. Envoys should be visible to all, but can be used for diplomatic missions.
* Write a bunch of "spells" which replicate the effects of the Espionage missions you want to replicate in the game. E.g. Poison Well, Bribe Guards. For an added bonus, make them unavailable until you research the appropriate tech - No poisoning wells til you have researched Poisons, No Bribes without currency...
* Some missions might only be available to Envoys (e.g. Smooth Relations: +1 Dip bonus for 20 turns), some missions only available to Spies (Destroy Building), some should be available to both (Investigate City)
* Performing a mission costs a fixed amount of Gold multiplied by the percentage ratio (min 25%, max 200%) of your IPs vs your targets IPs.
* Unsure as to how to handle success ratio of mission. Risk ought ot play a factor as should ratio of IPs. Optionally double or treble Gold can be paid to increase chance and "fortifying" the Spy also ought to increase the chances. Crime might be a factor, as might corruption, whereas Courthouses and Dungeons ought to increase defence against hostile missions.
* Some of the events ought to have corresponding real events. Sometimes mining accidents happen, sometimes such tragedies are encouraged... This is more important in the multi-player game than in the single player game.

I've got one idea for a spy only mission, borrowed from the Total War series. If you have a spy in an enemy city, he could have a mission called "Open the gates" which removes the city defence bonus, or lowers it significantly for one turn. This mission should be costly and/or risky, not to make invading cities too easy.

have some promotions just for them to up their effectiveness, I like the Idea of upgrading to shadows, what about shadows getting discounts based on the promotions so you have the first promotion give 5% discount,2=10%,3=20%, each promotion would be devoted to a specific mission, but 2&3 give 5&10 percent bonuses to 2 related missions and have them be able to get overall levels so a promotion that applies to all reducing them by a decent amount

The shadow would get a combat bonus from those, so poisoning a city talents will give poison strength and 3 will give 1 affinity

Merge the Super Spies modcomp!

here is the link to super spies (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=259221) if you didn't want to take the time to search it out. It has some pretty good ideas. I like the idea from Total war mentioned above about opening the gate. Sometimes while playing I keep searching for that option and remember that its not part of civ :(

I think some of the rates of what can be done in spy missions needs to be changed based on how many points are available. With more points I want more options than causing unrest for only one turn and be able to cause multiple turns of unrest. The spy leaves... and one turn of unrest is kind of useless in most cases. same goes for all options, more poison with more E points.

Maybe with a ton of points an impersonate governor ability to have a chance to take a city. If you are spending lots of gold for espionage, you should reap the benefit even if it is taking a city (and more if good ideas are brainstormed).

definitely use super spies with some tweaks...

The one major thing I would change in espionage is the spy returning to the capital after a successful mission. That is really annoying especially if the distance is great. There should be a new way to get rid of spies to boot them out of your land or get caught. Counter espionage should be renamed to double agent - since that is the purpose to send false info (reducing E points) and counter espionage should be a new ability that can be cast in your own territory to have a chance to kick out (or capture) all spies (each in turn) in your territory. Now since the AI is kind of stupid (e.g. not researching poisons when they have lots of spies causing havoc) and would be overpowered for the human, any recon unit should gain a similar counter espionage ability that appears when spies enter their territory with a small chance to kick the spies out but still takes away espionage points. For another change poisons should be renamed to Intrigue in the tech tree since more things are available than just poisons.

Some of the espionage missions should be tied to tech. Having a spy spread culture should require an art tech like drama. To impersonate a governor and take a city should require deception (and a TON of E points and cause a big hit in relations). Bribing a unit should take currency and etcetera...

Other abilities that spies could get to impact units rather than the city could be (which should still cost E points and have a chance to be resisted):
Poison food - causes weakness promotion with a chance to cause withered or rabies.
Damage weapons - move the rust ability to spies and free up a spell.
Set traps - puts units in the cage and can't move until another unit releases them (must be used outside a city)
Rebellion - similar to bribe except the unit turns enraged rather than join the civ.

Another thing that would be cool is to gain info on other civs - dont know if this could be done... but an ability to spy on other civs through an ally. So an ability called allied intel - allows you to meet and have relations with civs that have contact with the civ the spy is currently working, and have a map of their territory.

Steal map could be another ability that allows to gain access to the civ's map. Would be useful when the civ hates you or just wont give up their map.

Steal technology (can't remember if that is already in or not) and kidnap great persons should also be available to spies with very very high cost of E points.

Steal ship could be another ability that consumes the spy. - or sabotage ship to destroy it

More ideas:

Hire Mercenary raiders - Choice of different barbarian spawns that pillage and harass the area they are hired. (costs both E points and gold)

Hide Nationality - give spies the ability to grant hidden nationality units at a cost to E points

Set traps - Spawns (str 1) traps that eat up movement and enemy's attack turn - also a useful tool to stop production of a tile until the trap is cleard

Deadly traps - spawns higher str traps

Interrogation - enables viewing of enemy troops for one turn (as opposed to viewing cities)

Safe house - makes units invisible as long as they stay in that tile (could even serve as a defense bonus for fortification)

Propaganda - spread lies about allies - In other words, all civs with friendly relationship get a -1 relations hit

Recruit agent - gain access to the visibility of an enemy unit - so you see what that unit sees like they were your unit

Steal item - takes item from units (like orthus's Axe) >:}

Train Dissidents - Makes an enemy unit go barbarian (chance to be resisted)

Disrupt Trade - Stops trade routes for 1 turn

Impersonate leader - happens for one turn instead of 10 and can be done multiple times if you have the E points for it

Expose Colors - shows nationality of hidden nationality units

Covert War - allows the deceleration of war without the relations penalty to other leaders

False Cause (can't think of a better name) - forces a civ to declare war on you

False Doctrine - spreads cults to city (more cults would need to be created with negative effects for this one :))

Barricade - similar to traps but with strength .01

well there is a few more brainstormed ideas...

Watching the news... the Iranians placed a charity organization front in New York city to gain funds for their activities.

a new spy mission that mimics this

Divert Resources - adds a building in enemy cities that does -2 gold for the enemy civ and +1 gold for the spies civ.

Other negative buildings could also be created if this mechanic is used.

To get rid of those buildings it also takes a spy mission

Disband enemy organizations - rids the city of enemy buildings.

BTW I'm the only one posting here... feels kinda lonely! Doesn't anyone else care about espionage>?

I remember back in Civ 2 spies and diplomats could pay units to desert, disbanding it. This is a pretty useful and balanced ability.

I haven't actually played regular Civ4 in a long, long time. What were the original spy missions?

BTW I'm the only one posting here... feels kinda lonely! Doesn't anyone else care about espionage>?

Sorry for the silence, but I assure you I am reading all you post.
I am going to include superspies mod in 23e and will see what can be implemented. But thanks for all the ideas!

Sorry for the silence, but I assure you I am reading all you post.
I am going to include superspies mod in 23e and will see what can be implemented. But thanks for all the ideas!

As long as you are reading I will keep posting :D

You're welcome... its the little I can do as thanks for your work creating such a great mod! Just wish I could help code :sad: Guess I will keep writing my crazy ideas :crazyeye:

Establish Embassy. (Mission - Diplomats Only) Puts a building (e.g. "Belseraph Embassy") in your capital and recipricating Capital that provides +1 Culture, +1 Science, +1 Espionage and +1 Diplobonus. Automatically destroyed in the event of declaration of war by either party on the other. Automatically built if one party becomes the vassal of another.

Thanks for all the ideas. I really like most of them, but coding is another thing... Will take some time.

For now, the system is as follows:

Ratcatchers are unitcombat_spy (allows special promotions) and are marked as spy units which allows active espionage missions, but causes them to be revealed sometimes.
Xp is granted on successfull espionage mission and for units that discovered a spy
Alchemist I & II - each one enhances poisoning effect by 50% (base is 5 :yuck:, so it is 7 and 10)
Instigiator I & II - same as alchemist, but for unhappy (base is 5 :mad:, too)
Revolutionary - 2 turns of unrest instead of 1 (requires instigiator I)
Escape I, II III +30% (40% for III) to escape chances after mission
Improvise I & II - 20% and 30% reduction in mission cost
Security I II III - +20 % each to finding spies (and allows getting xp from it if unit had no counterspy ability before). It also increases the mission cost (I think ) by 5 times the amoun. Need to test it, and it can be a bit much.
Deception I, II, III - +10, 15 and 20% reduce in chances of being found. Last one requires Esus.
Covert (temporary name, as loyality was already taken) - spy never reveals nationality whan discovered. Requires deception I
Vigilant - empyrean priests, high priests and disciples only, but radiant guards start with it. works as security (and allows this line regardless the unitcombat), 20% bonus

Empyrean disciples/priests/high priests have innate bonuses to catch spies.
Reatcatchers guikld is now builkdable national wonder (cost 240, req poisons). Grants free deception I promotion and some bonuses to espionage gain

Espionage can be produced in a special process, but now city specialists.
I think of adding great spies, but do not want to pollute great people poll, so I thought about an ability to convert high level spies to great spies. So far, no idea what abilities to give them.

Globe troupe headquaters grants 2 :culture: and 1 :espionage: per every city with a guild. I want to add some bonuses to actor colonies as well.
Also, I thought of making thespians unitcombat_spy, and allowing them a few missions, i.e. insert culture.
Currently ratcatchers and thespians can't look into cities (require passive mission or pelemoc), but I think it should be good to add this ability to at least one of these units.

Also, everything in espionage departament is currently enabled by poisons. It is fine to add some here as the tech fits and was a bit light before, but maybe I should spread it a bit?
I do not want to link too much with deception as not every civ can research it, but I need some ideas for extras that Council of Esus should get. Empyrean got some counterspy abilites already, but some more would be nice, too.

Ok, that is the rough puicture. It will still have to be smoothed and balanced. Most of it will have to wait for the tests after I release 23e, but for now, feel free to comment/suggest changes.

I think this is a great start as espionage is a work in progress :)


I think of adding great spies, but do not want to pollute great people poll, so I thought about an ability to convert high level spies to great spies. So far, no idea what abilities to give them.

As espionage develops and more abilities are coded for spies, some could be restricted to the great spy... but for now, if you wanted to add in a great spy, maybe let them do missions with 1/3 the cost? or... maybe allow the great spy to lead a unit like a great general and give XP, promotions, and hidden nationality

My favorite idea is the ability to "set traps" - because having a hidden nationality permanent summon could be so useful in disruption and combat (and even guard against assassins since they would be so weak). However to code summoning through e points may take time (if possible at all). A way around that for now would be to give all spies the ability to summon up to 5 traps like mages summoning skeletons.

There were traps in AoI, a Set Trap button and a Hamstrung effect in age of Ice. I guess they could potentially be misappropriated.

Escape I, II III +30% (40% for III) to escape chances after mission


maybe give a bonus for Dimentional Mana or just for the Amurites :crazyeye:

maybe give a bonus for Dimentional Mana or just for the Amurites :crazyeye:

Nice idea. I even thought of a special promotion that would give spies paradrop ability (to speed movement and allow droping them on islands without using ships)

And welcome to the Forums :)

Is it possible to have spies go to the nearest city or nearest cultural borders rather than the capital after a completed mission? It is kind difficult to move them halfway around the world to do a small mission time after time.

It's possible, but that would involve running a loop over all plots, rather than checking for a single plot.

It's possible, but that would involve running a loop over all plots, rather than checking for a single plot.

well ... in dll, could it theoretically work?

bool CvUnit::jumpToNearestCity()
{
CvCity* pNearestCity;
pNearestCity = GC.getMapINLINE().findCity(getX_INLINE(), getY_INLINE(), getOwnerINLINE());
if (pNearestCity != NULL)
{
setXY(pNearestCity->getX_INLINE(), pNearestCity->getY_INLINE());
return true;
}
else
{
kill(false);
return false;
}
}
+reference in header
(code inspired by CvUnit::jumpToNearestValidPlot)
I think that should find nearest player's city and move unit there

That would work, yes, but would need DLL... I was going off Python, which is what I tend to use most. :lol:

That would work

Than that would be a good change :D

Hmm... It might be, or it might just overpower the spies. I haven't played with them, but do they have any powerful abilities? Disrupt/Steal production, for example? If so, transporting it to the nearest city (Keep in mind you could settle next to the city you're sabotaging), could be very overpowered. I know with Pelemoc and his population-theft, even a chance for war would not keep it balanced against that.

I agree things always need to be balanced in some way... I think that could be better accomplished by balancing E points rather than distance which can be arbitrary depending on where your enemy is (super far = useless, super close = overpowered). Distance IMO would be the worst way to balance espionage - E points are already setup for that function.

I'm in the middle of a game at the moment, but one thing that occurred to me last night is that you might want to move the process to Deception and keep the slider adjustment at Poisons. In this way, anyone can adjust their sliders, but to build Espionage you're going to have to make a deal with the devil. Sure this is a bit rough on the Grigori, the Mechanos and the Illians, but I don't think it's a major loss and it would keep the icons cleaner on the tech screen.

Hmm... It might be, or it might just overpower the spies. I haven't played with them, but do they have any powerful abilities?

Ratcatchers seem to be able to enter enemy cities and 'steal' workers when at war with that civ... does that count? Or is that a bug? :confused:

-Z

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