I'm a new monarch player and I find that creative is my favorite trait. Being Hat and Zara have given me easy victories at this level but I have gotten absolutely stomped when not using a CRE leader. Obviously the war chariots help with Egypt but it seems like Creative lets you grab the best land so fast that you snag the early advantage that I find essential in turning into a victory.

Am I the only one that feels this way? I usually play standard sized Pangea so land grabbing becomes more important.

I find creative is better at slower speeds where monuments take longer to build and border pops take longer after they are built. Are you playing marathon by any chance?

I just build a monument working a 2 food tile and whip it when my city gets to size 2 or else chop a forest with a worker at normal speed.

EDIT: And welcome to CFC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I tend to play on Epic but I have started trying Normal speed as well. I honestly don't have the patience for marathon and I think it makes the game a bit easier when the game is set that slow.

I find the main problem with not being creative is having to research mysticism to get a border pop (for 2nd city of course), which is always annoying. But then again, you normally start with a decent worker tech if you haven't got mysticism so you can normally improve your capital quicker.

I do like creative a lot, especially the cheap libraries and later theatres ;)

Financial or philosophical is much better in the long run though. It's no surprise Pericles and Willy are strong leaders to play.

EDIT: OOh didn't realise Zara was cre/org that's a good combo to have. I thought he was cre/exp (that's Sury, another good leader but his UU is very situational).

I'm a huge fan of creative, but it is possible to do well without it. Just be sure to chop/whip monuments in a timely manner. You will also have to think a bit more carefully about city placement for the first couple of cities.

Just play some games without creative to limit your dependence on it.

I think the first 2 games I played at civ I rolled Louis and then Kublai as random leaders. It was a shocker playing the 3rd game ;)

There are only 3 traits I actively dislike... AGG, PRO and CRE.

Discounted libraries are useful in their own right, and discounted, non-essential happiness buildings are a great way to abuse chop/whip overflow... but I don't find adjusting city placements to make do without early border pops to be a huge sacrfice (I favour a tight placement anyway, so often I can work terrain claimed by another city).

Early on it is good though researching mysticism is just silly.

Just use a Library and use the occasion as an excuse to run a pair of scientists. It can be done in any location with a food resource within two tiles distance. The city really only needs to work the scientists for as long as it takes to make the first GS pop.

Welcome to the boards gmilo00! :beer:

CRE is not overpowered at all. Sure it pops those borders sooner, but the alternative for non-CRE leaders is to just settle a resource so that the things you really want are in the first ring. You can rush that way just as well. The real advantage would be that you need no monument and the cheap library and theatre. That is not overpowered at all really.

CRE is just one of those nice traits that is useful in every single game. That however does not make it overpowered. There are more traits that are really useful like organised and spiritual. Those are always good to have too...

I guess any economic trait would be more powerful than CRE. CRE is only extremely useful when you need a very quick border pop to seal of some chokepoint on the map. All other times it is a good trait but nothing more.

Since when I play monarch, my favourite leader is Caty.
You can found a number of cities and prepping for a not too early war (you can call it rush only if lucky enough to have no animal/metal neighbour).
It's easy to get Oracle once you can start specializing almost from the beginning, and yes, economy suffers, but specialists let youir reasearch go without many problems.
Not the same good results with non CRE IMP leaders.
Maybe late game CRE lose his appeal, but then, land is what you need the most.

usually, game won before 1 AD . So CRE is a very strong strait because you have an advantage since the beginning without doing anything.

usually, game won before 1 AD . So CRE is a very strong strait because you have an advantage since the beginning without doing anything.

true, add to that stonehenge and youre set for some super fast REXing. And that nets you the best land, the quickest. Usually. Wars and indeed rushes also tend to be costly in one way or the other, and usually stagnate your research. But military power has its uses though.

Creative just gives a bonus to those neat libraries boosting SE greatly and thus your research. Not bad at all, in fact in my eyes only positive.

financial is strong though. Industrious perhaps not so much. faster forges and factories, if you lose oracle slingshot and don't get that metal casting, meh... Factories also come too late, and most of the useful wonders are buildable with chopping and strategic resources anyways.

But organized isn't that good IMO, generally, unless you're a huge empire and youre at mid/late game and running some sort of serious civics in the mean time while waiting for state property. Generally I've found that organized isn't that useful from the get go.

true, add to that stonehenge and youre set for some super fast REXing. And that nets you the best land, the quickest. Usually. Wars and indeed rushes also tend to be costly in one way or the other, and usually stagnate your research. But military power has its uses though.

Creative just gives a bonus to those neat libraries boosting SE greatly and thus your research. Not bad at all, in fact in my eyes only positive.

financial is strong though. Industrious perhaps not so much. faster forges and factories, if you lose oracle slingshot and don't get that metal casting, meh... Factories also come too late, and most of the useful wonders are buildable with chopping and strategic resources anyways.

But organized isn't that good IMO, generally, unless you're a huge empire and youre at mid/late game and running some sort of serious civics in the mean time while waiting for state property. Generally I've found that organized isn't that useful from the get go.
There is so much that I find confusing in this post... How does CRE boost a specialist economy? The bonus hammers to libraries only help getting them up faster. It does not boost the SE once you have them up. The two or so turns or so that you can get the library up faster is indeed very nice but nothing to get very excited about.

I also fail to see what financial, industrious and organised have to do with anything. All of those are very nice traits btw, ones that can very well compete with CRE in terms of usefulness. It beats me what 'serious civics' are.

There is so much that I find confusing in this post... How does CRE boost a specialist economy? The bonus hammers to libraries only help getting them up faster. It does not boost the SE once you have them up. The two or so turns or so that you can get the library up faster is indeed very nice but nothing to get very excited about.

I also fail to see what financial, industrious and organised have to do with anything. All of those are very nice traits btw, ones that can very well compete with CRE in terms of usefulness. It beats me what 'serious civics' are.


well, which traits classify as "economic traits" then? other than financial. You're the one who's confusing :D

organized only helps by cutting down civic upkeep, right? so why bother being organized if you're running already relatively low upkeep civics like nationhood/state property.

Well okay I admit that switching to police state might be useful since it also cuts down war weariness and gives other nice (good) bonuses...

In my opinion it does help specialist economy that you have libraries faster, can't run the scientists (generally speaking the best specialists) until you get the required building in the first place.

Organised gets better the higher the level you go. Don't discount the half price courthouse which is an expensive building either. You're not going to be running state property for most of the game.

Early on Bureaucracy and Organised Religion, both high cost civics, are excellent.

well, which traits classify as "economic traits" then? other than financial. You're the one who's confusing :D

organized only helps by cutting down civic upkeep, right? so why bother being organized if you're running already relatively low upkeep civics like nationhood/state property.

Well okay I admit that switching to police state might be useful since it also cuts down war weariness and gives other nice (good) bonuses...

In my opinion it does help specialist economy that you have libraries faster, can't run the scientists (generally speaking the best specialists) until you get the required building in the first place.

Organised is the big economic civic. Quick two pop whip of courthouses after one hammer turn. Cheap factories, and halves civic maintenance. As city number and pop goes up, so does the civic cost. ORG can save several hundred gold when you have lots of cities, unless you run the default 4000BC civics, as they are free afaik. Even a low upkeep civic is expensive when you have a large empire.

I often find my civic upkeep to cost 50+ gold as soon as I hit HR/Bureaucracy, saving half that gold, while being able to whip courthouses quickly and cheaply, at that stage of the game where my economy is tanking is better than anything FIN or any other trait can muster. Saving 25+ gold at the early AD mark is extremely valuable. The plus 1 commerce from FIN would not cover that gain. Nor would the cheap library, as that would already be built. CRE is a solid trait, not outstanding like ORG or SPI.

damn didn't remember that courthouse thing. well thanks for the info!

just what are these economic traits other than financial, if industrious is not comparable to lets say creative?

financial is strong though. Industrious perhaps not so much. faster forges and factories, if you lose oracle slingshot and don't get that metal casting, meh... Factories also come too late, and most of the useful wonders are buildable with chopping and strategic resources anyways.

Huh!? :confused:. First thing is that factories get bonus :hammers: with organised not industrious... but how on earth does the ability to chop trees weaken the boost to wonders? The tree :hammers: are boosted by it :p. Resources just add to the bonus and need to be aquired first which is especially difficult for the early wonders (Henge, Mids, Wall), industrious is the only way to give yourself a decent shot at getting certain wonders on higher levels without resource luckiness. Industrious also gives bonuses to national wonders, early Maoi, NE and HE are all very welcome. Cheap forges are very handy for production and sometimes even happiness. Wonder failure gold is nice too :p. While i'm not a fan of industrious leaders I can see it is a strong trait :lol:

But organized isn't that good IMO, generally, unless you're a huge empire and youre at mid/late game and running some sort of serious civics in the mean time while waiting for state property. Generally I've found that organized isn't that useful from the get go.
Organised helps at the start softening the impact of expansion and early wars, it reduces cost of 3 very important buildings (Cheap lighthouses even help getting GLH). It helps both horizontal and vertical growth. Its a trait that gets stronger as the game progresses and is fantastic for an aggresive player warring a lot.

well, which traits classify as "economic traits" then? other than financial. You're the one who's confusing :D

organized only helps by cutting down civic upkeep, right? so why bother being organized if you're running already relatively low upkeep civics like nationhood/state property.

Well okay I admit that switching to police state might be useful since it also cuts down war weariness and gives other nice (good) bonuses...

In my opinion it does help specialist economy that you have libraries faster, can't run the scientists (generally speaking the best specialists) until you get the required building in the first place.
Most traits can be argued to help "SEs" (The only exception being Fin and maybe someone else can rationalize it :p)... Organised for more cities and earlier cheaper spies, Spiritual for Pacifism and Caste and Priests, Industrious for reinforcing GPP with wonders and cheap NE and cheap Mids, Aggresive for more cities... etc etc

Police state isn't much use till late in the game when armies get big and neither police state or SP are available till the late game (well PS with mids), Bureau and OR are the staple of my empires for most of the game....

just what are these economic traits other than financial, if industrious is not comparable to lets say creative?
Every trait can be considered to have some kind of economic aspect even if it requires war or overflow gold. The traits I find most useful for my 'economy' are Spi, Fin, Phi and Org

well, which traits classify as "economic traits" then? other than financial. You're the one who's confusing :DAh, I had no idea you were actually responding to what I said earlier. Those are the economic traits indeed.

I mentioned the economic traits in this thread because the OP claims CRE is overpowered. I mentioned economic traits are at least on par with CRE so I fail to see how CRE is overpowered.

I particularly like Creative as a boost to early warfare. It helps your second city to start producing weapons earlier (since you don't need a Monument). It lets you get a head start on Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry or Horseback Riding (since you don't need Mysticism). It lets you make more immediate use of conquered cities. It allows you to settle your second city two tiles away from a strategic resource if you don't want to settle right next to it.

I also like that I can rush-buy Theatres for next to nothing in the later game, when Emancipation and war weariness start taking their toll.

CRE is even better in your newly acquired cities:D

Creative saves 140 hammers per city, in early game.

Creative captures resources peacefully (for those who understand culture mechanics).

Overflow tricks.

Creative saves 140 hammers per city, in early game.

Creative captures resources peacefully (for those who understand culture mechanics).

Overflow tricks.

Chop/whip overflows with libraries, not a chance. Those forests can be put to better uses. The only really profitable overflow trick is PRO/with stone walls. Libraries are that little bit too expensive to make that worthwhile. those forests are better used to chop a worker or settler, as that has better long term gains.

Chop/whip overflows with libraries, not a chance. Those forests can be put to better uses. The only really profitable overflow trick is PRO/with stone walls. Libraries are that little bit too expensive to make that worthwhile. those forests are better used to chop a worker or settler, as that has better long term gains.

Whip/chop with CRE/EXP/AGG is superior to any other method available in the early game if you have trees available. The more overflow you get the more settlers you can spam. PRO is not the best choice "as your teching to Currency".

CRE arguably does the most for overflow tricks... PRO with walls and stone is the single most impressive one, but keep in mind that non-PRO walls with stone can be used for this anyway.

Whipping *happiness* buildings for overflow is great because it there is no loss of efficiency to cap trouble.
Whipping a library for overflow is also attractive because the same action that gave you a reserve of gold also gave you a science multiplier, taking advantage of your ability to run science at 100%.

I just tried it out. Creative, build library to 28 :hammers:, then whip 2 pop and chop 2 forests. You get 50 :gold: and 45 :hammers: overflow. Thats a waste of resources.

Protective + stone + walls + 1 pop whip + 2 forests -> 16 :hammers: overflow +185 :gold:

With mathematics it gets a bit better: 90 for library and 245 for walls.

ignoring all the whipping/chopping for a second,

I like CRE because:

- You never have to settle sub-optimally to get a resource faster
- You can settle stronger blocking cities aggressively towards the AI
- You save early hammers/beakers by avoiding myst/monuments
- The +2 :culture: plus 2 cheap culture buildings mean you win border wars, even with AI's that are your friends.

There's nothing I hate more than a neighbor's culture pushing into my lands and stealing resources. This is almost never a problem with CRE.

CRE = early game on steroids.

An interesting rumor, that may be relevant to the discussion....

Based on my readings elsewhere, Creative was originally implemented with cheap libraries. This benefit in the trait was then removed prior to shipping Vanilla 1.0 - the results of the testing lead to the conclusion that the balance was off.

It is decidedly unclear whether the same testing standards were applied when the benefit was restored later.


Obviously, without facts (which I don't have, myself), one can reasonably doubt the above. My own memory (which an enterprising sort could validate using the search function, I suppose) is that prevailing opinion at the end of 2005 was that CRE was already strong trait, and nobody but nobody was promoting the argument that what the trait really needed was a building discount in the ancient era....

I'm a new monarch player and I find that creative is my favorite trait. Being Hat and Zara have given me easy victories at this level but I have gotten absolutely stomped when not using a CRE leader. Obviously the war chariots help with Egypt but it seems like Creative lets you grab the best land so fast that you snag the early advantage that I find essential in turning into a victory.

Am I the only one that feels this way? I usually play standard sized Pangea so land grabbing becomes more important.

It is a very nice trait to have on a Pangea map. If the game didn't have other types of maps, I suppose that creative might actually be considered to be overpowered. Also for me, at Monarch and Emperor the early game land grab is pretty much the whole game. (At least for any map that has two or more civs on the same land mass as me.) Therefore, any trait that makes that part of the game easier certainly seems like a really strong one.

As the game goes on, the cheap libraries are always a good thing, but the extra base culture for my cities becomes almost worthless. At best, I can combine it with the cheap theaters to quickly pop borders in newly captured cities and maybe bring a domination victory to a quicker conclusion.