*** WARNING ***
Finding and locating BUGs in 2.7 is hard enough for Zappara without all the modmods.
Adding 4 or 5 modmods will make it nearly impossible. If you want to add this mod,
please do so at your own "risk". I'll try to help at the best of my abillity, but please
remember that I'm no Zappara ;)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=218900&d=1245902394

First of all : Big Thanks to Jooyo for helping put pollution on the industry. Couldnt have done it without him. :goodjob:

Updated to BtS 3.19 RoM 2.7
Changelog 1.2 :
Put pollution on industry :)
Scaled buildings a bit (smaller)

What is does :

This mod adds a new improvement to the industrial age, simular to the cottage/hamlet/village/town. It adds a new build option for workers called Industry. This will cost a little and be weaker than the workshop, but will soon grow big and strong. (Faster than the cottage/hamlet.... as it is a relatively late improvement and has more levels)
It can only be placed on flat lands with either grass/plain/tundra, and will remove the forrest/jungle on the plot.

From the industry is first placed it will take around 40 turns on epic before it is fully developed. (If plot is being used at all time)

The levels are as follows:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217575&stc=1&d=1245894773


Industry (Sparse) Can be build with Assemply line, cost 10, upgrade 5 turns
+3 :hammers: +1 :commerce:

Industry (Light) Can be build with Industrialism, cost 25, upgrade 10 turns
+4 :hammers: +1 :commerce: +1 :yuck:

Industry (Medium) Can be build with Manufacturing, cost 50, upgrade 10 turns
-1 :food: +5 :hammers: +2 :commerce: +1 :yuck:

Industry (Heavy) Can only develop, upgrade 15 turns
-1 :food: +6 :hammers: +2 :commerce: +2 :yuck:

Industry (Dense) Can only develop
-1 :food: +7 :hammers: +3 :commerce: +2 :yuck: +1 :mad:

All the above gets the following bonuses :
Road/Paved Road : +1 :commerce:
Modern Road and later +1 :hammers: +1 :commerce:


Note : Pollution requires Jooyo's Core.dll 1.10 (http://www.sendspace.com/file/98ji70) or later. Thread here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314346)

File moved to Vincentz Mods (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326447)

Simple as that!

Looks good - I'll give these a try. :)

One query; shouldn't these improvements create pollution? It doesn't seem realistic that large scale manufacturing causes no pollution whatsoever, especially considering that several of these are representing early, inefficient plants with belching chimneys etc. :nuke:

hehe, I couldnt agree more. I REALLY wanted an ihealthpercent or an ihealth working on the improvementinfos.xml, unfortunately that is hardcoded into the gamecore.dll.
I tried to mess with it, but man! its not that easy to compile a .dll. And with the new patch 3.19 I think that most .dll modders have their hands full.
I actually prepared the mod with an ihealthpercent (as in features like jungle and peat bog), but right now it just sits there doing nothing....

Dont know whats going on here, but i haven't even gotten Slavery yet, and a "Heavy" Building is placed already????

Does this get +1 Food w/ state property?

Dont know whats going on here, but i haven't even gotten Slavery yet, and a "Heavy" Building is placed already????

Do you have 2.7test1 or 2.7test2 (WoC) installed?

It only works for 2.7test2 as the WoC standard made it possible to make upgradeable improvements without having to put all vanilla rom improvements in the mod. (If you look at my early Upgradeable Industry Improvement for 2.63, all improvements had to be defined in Improvementinfos.xml to work.)
The reason why I called it 2.7 was that its actually a bit early realeased as 2.7 isnt really out yet. I think Zappara's next step will be to make a 2.7beta before posting a "real" 2.7 and with the new 3.19patch released that might take a while.

When that said, I will rush to the first post and put a >2.7test2 only<

If you have 2.7test2 installed then my best guess would be that you had a visit from outer space, granting you alien technology :scan:

If thats the case, could you post which modmods you've installed so I can make a list of incompatible mods.

Does this get +1 Food w/ state property?

No, I didnt want to mess with the civics (yet), though being an upgradeable improvement it will automaticly get the 10% speed upgrade from church welfare, the 25% speed upgrade from liberal and the 50% speed upgrade form Nationalist which fits ok (well maybe not the church, but in that era (industrial) you've propably not choose church welfare anyway)

Later I might give it bonuses from civics like : corporatist (+1 :commerce:), communism (+1 :hammers: -1 :commerce:) and green (+1 :mad:)

I never really understood the +1 :food: from state property. When I look back at the eastern europian/soviet state owned businesses, food was actually lacking and people would qeue up for miles just to get a fresh piece of meat or a lumb of bread. Russia was actually the only I-country to have a negative population growth and would make "Dollar-shops" where you could buy food with foreign currency only.

Well, maybe I was just indoctrinated by western propaganda :crazyeye:

I never really understood the +1 :food: from state property. When I look back at the eastern europian/soviet state owned businesses, food was actually lacking and people would qeue up for miles just to get a fresh piece of meat or a lumb of bread. Russia was actually the only I-country to have a negative population growth and would make "Dollar-shops" where you could buy food with foreign currency only.

Well, maybe I was just indoctrinated by western propaganda :crazyeye:

Yeah interesting question, I've been thinking about it as well - although I came to the conclusion that the bonus is eligible.
I guess you could explain it that way that by socializing the land all the small farmers and low paid workers now possesed a more equal share of the production, in relation to the once mighty owners of very large estates (and production sites).
So, as the wages were averaged out, the "white" counter-revolutionaries were beaten, Stalin had done his cossack clearings etc. and WW2 was over, they were able to buy a little more food than before the revolution, after having worked the same - or even shorter - as the working conditions improved as well.

I don't know if you know the story of Manchester capitalism, but shortly it goes like this:

A factory owner says to the starving masses in front of his factory: who wants to work the day for a piece of bread? The masses mumble but the hungriest of them step forward.
The factory owner says: there is not enough work for all of you - I need only half of you.
So, one man steps forward and says, he would be willing to work for half a bread, if he only was taken...

The morale of this story is, that without the working classes organization, like in the czars empire, where serfdom and repression went hand in hand for a long time, while capitalistic industrialisation went all along, workers have very little food, even if there might be a surplus in the state (which is in many cases exported, like it's still seen nowadays in third-world-countries).

So, yeah you were right - a little indoctrination can be diagnosed. ;)

At least the crisis is good for one thing: it opens the eyes to anachronistic structures in economy, and exculpates the marxistic analysis from the dirt that has been thrown at it by neoliberal think-tanks for a long time now. They demasked themselves, using regulation if they need it for themselves... Socialism for the rich as it also can be called.

One thing shall nevertheless be not forgotten: there hasn't been real socialism yet, grassroots democracy socialism without functionary elites that just replace the bourgouise as a societies power center... and after all, the sowjet unions economy was mainly state capitalism, as it had to compete with those states that had a capitalistic economy, and with their currencies etc.

Yeah interesting question, I've thinking about it as well - although I came to the conclusion that the bonus is eligible.
I guess you could explain it that way that by socializing the land all the small farmers and low paid workers now possesed a more equal share of the production, in relation to the once mighty owners of very large estates (and production sites).
So, as the wages were averaged out, the "white" counter-revolutionaries were beaten, Stalin had done his cossack clearings etc. and WW2 was over, they were able to buy a little more food than before the revolution, after having worked the same - or even shorter - as the working conditions improved as well.

I don't know if you know the story of Manchester capitalism, but shortly it goes like this:

A factory owner says to the starving masses in front of his factory: who wants to work the day for a piece of bread? The masses mumble but the hungriest of them step forward.
The factory owner says: there is not enough work for all of you - I need only half of you.
So, one man steps forward and says, he would be willing to work for half a bread, if he only was taken...

The morale of this story is, that without the working classes organization, like in the czars empire, where serfdom and repression went hand in hand for a long time, while capitalistic industrialisation went all along, workers have very little food, even if there might be a surplus in the state (which is in many cases exported, like it's still seen nowadays in third-world-countries).

So, yeah you were right - a little indoctrination can be diagnosed. ;)

At least the crisis is good for one thing: it opens the eyes to anachronistic structures in economy, and exculpates the marxistic analysis from the dirt that has been thrown at it by neoliberal think-tanks for a long time now. They demasked themselves, using regulation if they need it for themselves... Socialism for the rich as it also can be called.

One thing shall nevertheless be not forgotten: there hasn't been real socialism yet, grassroots democracy socialism without functionary elites, that just replace the bourgoise as a societies power center... and after all, the sowjet unions economy was mainly state capitalism, as it had to compete with those states that had a capitalistic economy, and with their currencies etc.

Beautifully put!

Beautifully put!

Thx, comrade! ;)


Btw, just a little disgression regarding the communist civics like state property and marxism and socialized welfare - if you start a industrial age game and you activate all of them the same time you get production bonusses like +70%...

But isn't it like that there is less production but instead more happiness because of more free time, better share of profit and a better chance to self-actualize ones potentials, like the person who would like to invent something, or the one who would like to do science but has to work low minded and low waged jobs just to earn his daily bread?
In a socialist society, where there is a unconditional basic income (due to the socialization of societies production resources - which are more and more mechanized by machines and thus output surplusses that can be shared for this income regularily) the creative processes should enlarge - in contrary to the so called "argument" of capitalists who don't get tired to repeat that communism would get peoples advancement to stagnate and that only in a capitalistic society there could be progress. :crazyeye:

Not to talk about the more love (yes, let's talk about love!!!) the people would have for each other, if they are not oppressed by repressive economic structures. Society would be more laid-back, more diverse and more open-minded - aside of the one-dimensional, delusional cement which the capitalistic labels only have to offer nowadays!

And even the production surplus could be discussed: like if medicine is socialized and all people can get cheap medicine, instead of having to die or stay cronically ill - just because they are not able to pay it as some pharmaceutical brands want to get extra large profits out of it etc.


So I would argue: the communist civics should be tweaked in favour of happiness (exept maybe those few unhappy faces of the 1% of the rich people who would suddenly have to share the 90% which they claimed of the societies total wealth of income...- ha-ha! as Nelson would say!) instead of production and thus towards more cultural benefits as well as perhaps a bit improved scientific output...

Last but not least a little share of music regarding the "little man" topics discussed here... Illwind - Little Man (http://senduit.com/55cbe9) (the whole album (http://huddingehill.blogspot.com/2009/05/illwind-flashes-rare-west-coast-rock-us.html) if you like that kind of music^^)

Hehe, the problem about civ civics is : should they try to reflect the ideology or the practical/actual use in history. The first is probably the best (but more difficult as no real examples can be found) as the second is heavily influenced by culture and ethnicity. Democracy has many faces around the world. So do capitalism and communism. None of them is build on the pure ideology.

Do you have 2.7test1 or 2.7test2 (WoC) installed?

It only works for 2.7test2 as the WoC standard made it possible to make upgradeable improvements without having to put all vanilla rom improvements in the mod. (If you look at my early Upgradeable Industry Improvement for 2.63, all improvements had to be defined in Improvementinfos.xml to work.)
The reason why I called it 2.7 was that its actually a bit early realeased as 2.7 isnt really out yet. I think Zappara's next step will be to make a 2.7beta before posting a "real" 2.7 and with the new 3.19patch released that might take a while.

When that said, I will rush to the first post and put a >2.7test2 only<

If you have 2.7test2 installed then my best guess would be that you had a visit from outer space, granting you alien technology :scan:

If thats the case, could you post which modmods you've installed so I can make a list of incompatible mods.

I can confirm this bug on 2.63, city ruins magically transform into heavy industry. I have two pictures, here (http://files.getdropbox.com/u/49805/City%20Ruins%201.jpg) and here (http://files.getdropbox.com/u/49805/City%20Ruins%202.jpg). I guess I'll live with it, because I don't want to play with a buggy 2.7test2.

I can confirm this bug on 2.63, city ruins magically transform into heavy industry. I have two pictures, here (http://files.getdropbox.com/u/49805/City%20Ruins%201.jpg) and here (http://files.getdropbox.com/u/49805/City%20Ruins%202.jpg). I guess I'll live with it, because I don't want to play with a buggy 2.7test2.

I have not seen any major bugs in 2.7test2, the only bugs I have encountered is one graphic one where the city buttons are a bit out of focus and the upgrade path one where you can rebuild things that went obsolete and thus get extra beinfits :). I have only had one CTD in many games and that was because something iPod related wanted to upgrade in background and did not play nicely with the other things already running.

I can confirm this bug on 2.63, city ruins magically transform into heavy industry. I have two pictures, here (http://files.getdropbox.com/u/49805/City%20Ruins%201.jpg) and here (http://files.getdropbox.com/u/49805/City%20Ruins%202.jpg). I guess I'll live with it, because I don't want to play with a buggy 2.7test2.

Is it 2.63 WoC or 2.63 standard?

If its 2.63 standard and you are using the industry 2.7 then (I think) its not only the city ruins that are bugged. As stated before all the improvement definitions had to be in the improvementinfons.xml. If you look in the civilopedia (improvements) the upgrade paths will be bugged for all improvements. I think this can be solved (even in your savegame) by pasting all the existing improvements into the industry_improvementinfos.xml

@ Dancing Hoskuld
I agree. There are some minor stuff that needs fixing, but for me it has been the most stable (not 1 crash so far) and I love the work on the medival era.

Updated to 1.2 (BtS 3.19 RoM 2.7)

Added pollution (Big thanks to Jooyo)
Changed size a bit (smaller)

Vincentz do you know if the AI will build the Industry?

yep, they will. but I dont think they'll spam it. might change if they are severly threatened (like with the workshop being build everywhere when they are invaded.)

Ah that is good to know as I did not want to use it if the AI did not. Great work by the way:goodjob: your mods are great!:)

These values seem very high! They are better than shaft mine on plains hill with forest! I would prefer the same growth path as with cottages. Your thoughts?

Your thoughts?

There you go ;)

These values seem very high!
They start out small (actually they are worse than the workshop when first build) and will then grow over time. So will pollution, and in the end (Dense industry) they'll bring unhappiness. If you look at other improvements in rom (especially the Watermill on forrest) its not that bad. (IMO) It also doesnt get any bonus from civics like the workshop/mine.

They are better than shaft mine on plains hill with forest!
I guess its also a matter of view. What will bring most production output? A densely built area full of industry or a mine in a forrest. IMO its the industry that provides the production and the mine that will provide the resources for it. However, if there is a resource (mine/coal/copper etc) on the mine, I think the mine is more productive.

I would prefer the same growth path as with cottages.
I might have made the upgrade path too short. Have to look at it again. One thing that speaks for it is that its a very late (upgradeable) improvement and its weak in the beginning. But with all the civics that can speed it up, I think I'll make them 25-40% longer.

@Vincentz

I appreciate your willingness to discuss your modmod. I actually love what you want to do. I will probably have to test it out myself, but it just feels really strong. I don't mind the quick upgrade path actually, since the game's timeline gets faster by then and it is a late improvement, etc. as you mentioned. I'm looking at it from the standpoint of having a factory and a manufacturing plant, etc. in the city. Now, coupled with the 3 plot radius and this modmod...Your production will be insane! Your pollution will too though...hmmm...

You have a great point with the workshop though.

I think the penalties should be such that I'd want no more than a few of these per city.

In your experience, would you say you feel alright building 6 of these per city? If so, then the penalties aren't high enough IMO to be balanced. However, it's your mod, and it's an awesome concept to be sure. I've often thought that the current set of plot improvements was lacking, so I'm very open to modmods like yours.

Great work! I don't want to discourage you at all. I just want to evaluate the balance of this before I load it into my games.

I really appreciate any form of input/critisism as this will hopefully improve my mods. If you use it and find it overpowering, please let me know. I have done some testruns, and the AI kind of like building it, but not spamming it, they would still keep workshops in forrest (the industry will cut down forrests). I think the AI would use it more if the industry was too powerfull, while they might not build it at all if I made it weaker. But one way was to put more unhappiness at the later stages. Another way is to use the civics as a scale.

I don't think it's overpowered, personally.

Maybe a little swift to develop from built -> full.

But, I actually think it arrives too late in the game to make a difference anyway. By the time it arrives, I'm REPLACING improvements, not PLACING improvements, so it's either going on a tile that I've had to leave alone due to limitations - (Peat Marsh Tundra, Drain Marsh, Lay Railroad, Plant Industry Buildings).

I won't replace a Lumbermill or Watermill with it... But I will replace any Workshops that the AI built.

But anything that makes Tundra useful is a HUUUUGE PLUS.

And since it's fun, I'm all for bringing a beginner version of it into earlier game, even if the price is that it takes a lot longer to develop, and starts less hammers... ? Call it "Industry (Cottage)" to imply that people are working on stuff in their own homes?

Additional comments:

1) Can this be built on Desert terrain also?
2) After reading Sarkyn's comments, I agree with him, changing soem of my initial concerns. I put my support behind earlier access to this improvement with a step before the sparse industry.

For my own test, I've set the first industry build at Replaceable Parts, and doubled the base timeline for each step in development, and allowed them to be built on deserts. I've left everything else alone. I'll let you know how it goes. (Replaceable Parts -> Assembly Line -> Industrialism for worker builds of Factory1, 2, 3. Although, I can see a good argument for skipping the Factory2 build and maybe keeping the Factory3 build order for the worker where it was(manufacturing).) Perhaps these worker orders could be more expensive? I'll play around with that too.

Been a while since anyone commented on this thread, but I just wanted to give a bit of feedback. The AI *loves* building industry. This should come as no surprise, given the AI's preference for production over food and commerce. Interestingly, it seems to help the AI keep up with human players that are following a different improvement methodology, like my current preference to spread forests and build lumbermills/watermills where possible. Not sure if it would be just as balanced for the AI if the human were following suit and spamming industry wherever possible, but it does make for an interesting game.

At least until I go in and start pillaging everything. ;)

This is a nice minimod. However, have you considered making industries develop FROM Workshops, instead of making them an entirely new thing? Imagine this:

Workshop > Industry > Heavy Industry > Dense Industry

This is a nice minimod. However, have you considered making industries develop FROM Workshops, instead of making them an entirely new thing? Imagine this:

Workshop > Industry > Heavy Industry > Dense Industry

Yes, I have considered it, and would like it to work that way ;)
Unfortunately the workshop becomes available with metal casting, so its nearly impossible to predict how many turns there is from metalcasting to industrialism, which afaik is the only way to upgrade an improvement (by turns, not techs).

Would be nice start building hamlet,village,town after get some tech... the loss of a pillage town is too high... the damn A.I dont realize that raze a village or town in a city that it plan to capture is stupid.

Would be nice start building hamlet,village,town after get some tech... the loss of a pillage town is too high... the damn A.I dont realize that raze a village or town in a city that it plan to capture is stupid.

Completely agree. Actually it already has build buttons, so its just a minor changes.
Might make a small modmod that also gives them defense bonuses.

Completely agree. Actually it already has build buttons, so its just a minor changes.
Might make a small modmod that also gives them defense bonuses.
the tag <bActsAsCity>1</bActsAsCity> would solve the defense bonus

another think the cottage/hamlet/village/town may need to give more gold because they need to be protected by at least one unit to avoid to be razed.

the tag <bActsAsCity>1</bActsAsCity> would solve the defense bonus

another think the cottage/hamlet/village/town may need to give more gold because they need to be protected by at least one unit to avoid to be razed.

actually its this one ;)

<iDefenseModifier>0</iDefenseModifier>

a heal bonus fit nice too. its easier find a doctor/xaman/nurse in a village

Just had a few questions:

1. Is this mod compatible with the latest version 2.71?
2. What technology enables this improvment? Or are diffrent levels activated at diffrent times?