I'm making a mod that switches around some of the civs to make it less Eurocentric and have some less common but not less important in it. I ran into a problem though: should there be New Guinea or Israel in my mod? New Guinea would be a very interesting choice, because of their unique culture (independent agriculture in 7000 BC) and incredible diversity (1/6 of the world's languages are in New Guinea). Israel, however, is a more traditional choice, and gave the world Judaism and Christianity, as well as influencing Islam and other religions. So, CFC, which civ should be in it: Israel or New Guinea?

I would vote for Israel, as they (As you noted) gave the world Judaism and Christianity. New Guinea would be an interesting choice, but there are no leaderheads for them and chances are, they will just overrun Australia as soon as they get Map Making.

There isn't an Australia. And I would use (probably) the Koori LH by R8XFT.

I have voted for Israel because I see your question through Modders Eyes. Just think of the good amount of Israelian Units that have been already made. Than think of the amount of New Guinea Units. You have to improvise all of the time. So that it would give you an unbelievable Civ in the end. At least it is much more difficult to make the New Guinea Civ in a reasonable way.

Bye
General 666

New Guinea, imho. Very unique and interesting, not done before.

There is no Israel before 1947, and before that there is no independent Jewish state after 587 BC (with the exception of 100 years of maccabean rule). So there are no historical units for 2000 years.

If you want to do a fictional mod though, go ahead. :)

I have seen in the television a documentation that 3/4 of the New Guinea population still having a spear in their hands. That will give you no need for an upgrade path for 5.500 or even 6.000 years.:lol

Sorry for this double post !
Huayna ,if you go for NG than I could try me out making 2 or 3 recolors of existing units ,if you like.
Just give me the unitmaker name and the name of the unit ,OK ?

I would suggest Sandris Gallic Pack ,because of the taatooed warriors in it. I could try to make them brown with white paintings on them.

But I will remind you that the `NG Army` even today uses Shamans to curse and how they believe even kill enemys. (I`m some kind of familiar with the worldwide Shamanism and have read two books about the New Guinea Shamanism). That leaves you more room in a fictional Mod.

Oh, I just need one unit for the UU :) Thanks for the offer. I sure one of the Aboriginal units may do :)

Okay , If you are going to change your mind ,you`ll know where to find me.
(Maybe I will doing them anyway)

I'm making a mod that switches around some of the civs to make it less Eurocentric and have some less common but not less important in it.
Israel, however, is a more traditional choice, and gave the world Judaism and Christianity, as well as influencing Islam and other religions.

Do you not see the contradiction here? :lol:

New Guinea
the imagination can run free

;)

Wotan49
:coffee:

I agree with Wotan49 and Ares, do a New Guinea. Isreal has been done before, and historically New Guinea and Isreal being in the game makes as much sense as America being in the game, because Isreal only recently regained statehood, and New Guinea even more recently.

Given that they both have little historical reason to be in a game starting in the stone age and ending in the modern age, I'd say go with the one that hasn't been done before! :)

Indonesia? Interesting nation, that represents many many things, and housed countless influential empires in the East :D

I agree with Wotan49 and Ares, do a New Guinea. Isreal has been done before, and historically New Guinea and Isreal being in the game makes as much sense as America being in the game, because Isreal only recently regained statehood, and New Guinea even more recently.

Given that they both have little historical reason to be in a game starting in the stone age and ending in the modern age, I'd say go with the one that hasn't been done before! :)

I think you're forgetting the Biblical Kingdom of Israel.

No, he isn't. Look at what he wrote:


Given that they both have little historical reason to be in a game starting in the stone age and ending in the modern age, I'd say go with the one that hasn't been done before! :)

There is no Israel after the 6th century BC until the 20th century AD.

I think you're forgetting the Biblical Kingdom of Israel.

Certainly I'm not, what I meant was that Isreal did not exist as a continuous "Civilization" like we see in the context of this game (Along with many other Civs that are in the game :D).

My main point, is that Israel has been done, and given that New Guinea and Israel are both states with short histories (as far as actual existance as a state) anyway, he should go for the civ that hasn't been done before (New Guinea). ^_^

There is no Israel after the 6th century BC until the 20th century AD.

Not only that but "Israel" has never been an expansionist state (on the scale of a global Civ map); about one tile is all it would historically enter into the works.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works, I've been toying with the idea of a Polynesian Civ. They would start with perhaps three rafts, widely spaced apart and away from land. Their rafts would be unsinkable in Ocean/Sea and each carry a Settler and a Warrior; Gov would be "communal" to obviate the potentially far distances between even their ~3 initial cities. Other details if anybody's curious.

Best,

Oz

Not only that but "Israel" has never been an expansionist state (on the scale of a global Civ map); about one tile is all it would historically enter into the works.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works, I've been toying with the idea of a Polynesian Civ. They would start with perhaps three rafts, widely spaced apart and away from land. Their rafts would be unsinkable in Ocean/Sea and each carry a Settler and a Warrior; Gov would be "communal" to obviate the potentially far distances between even their ~3 initial cities. Other details if anybody's curious.

Best,

Oz

Very interesting, I like this idea a lot, I'd love to see it in a mod. I don't recall seeing any polynesian units, land or sea...Unit request? :)

@Oz: One problem I foresee with your idea is that you can't start with land units pre-placed on naval units :(

Certainly I'm not, what I meant was that Isreal did not exist as a continuous "Civilization" like we see in the context of this game (Along with many other Civs that are in the game :D).

My main point, is that Israel has been done, and given that New Guinea and Israel are both states with short histories (as far as actual existance as a state) anyway, he should go for the civ that hasn't been done before (New Guinea). ^_^

New Guinea hasn't ever been a civ, but the people with the first boats ever settled it in 40,000 BC, invented agriculture independently in 7000 BC based on taro, bananas, and sugar cane, and have 1,000 of the world's 6,000 languages.

So it has a looooooong history.

I voted for Israel, just because they've had a huge influence on the world. Sure, they haven't been around for ever, but they were (And some might argue, are now) a major world player. Just like how America, which has been around for about 250 years, is a Super-Power. Don't judge a nation by it's age! :D

I think Israel has had by-far a bigger impact on the world, and it was a shame that it was left off the original Civ III game! You can also finally use the 'treasure' unit in Conquests for a king or something. ;) And technically, New Guinea isn't even a country anymore!

Either way, though, I think both could be fun and enjoyable!

Cheers!

I voted for Guinea. Any civ in proximity of Mediterranean sea is eurocentric.

@Oz: One problem I foresee with your idea is that you can't start with land units pre-placed on naval units :(

Really? - Damn. OK: solution: there are enough small islands in the Pacific that you chose 3, well enough away from any land mass, make them a terrain type that cities can't be built on; stick the land units there and the rafts adjacent. :cooool:

@da3dalus - There are indeed several Polynesian units, including an ocean-going raft (I'd list the rest, but I haven't done a complete inventory, although a Samoan Clubman and IIRC a Settler come to mind ... :) )

Best,

Oz

I'd throw my vote for an Indonesia civ as well. Or more specifically, Java. There's already a Hayam Wuruk leaderhead for Majapahit.

Another agricultural civ to play against sadly though but luckily not expansionist. Make em build settlers often but never naval unit :p

Another agricultural civ to play against sadly though but luckily not expansionist. Make em build settlers often but never naval unit :p

You can make them "Austronesian" which includes Indonesian & Polynesian.

-Oz

Indeed, in my Mod the Indonesian civ is the representative of the austronesian peoples too. I've yet to do some tinkering to get them to play well enough on a real-world map :D

Indeed, in my Mod the Indonesian civ is the representative of the austronesian peoples too. I've yet to do some tinkering to get them to play well enough on a real-world map :D

I give them Polynesian rafts which don't sink at Ocean/Sea and allow for a fairly rapid expansion.

Best,

Oz

I already have Polynesia in my mod.

I already have Polynesia in my mod.

OK, I'm wandering a bit O/T, but did you do anything out of the ordinary to implement them?

Best,

Oz

No, it's just as if it was a usual civ. But I might use your ideas.

Neither actualy... Israel basicaly dissapeared as a civ for a mere 2000 years and New Guinea... well... I remember the Europeans wanted to colonize it since it was rather empty a place in the 17th century...

I got alternative, all cobbled together, non-European civs in my epic game such as

- Australasia (basicaly Indonesia, Malaya and the Phillipines),
- Cambodia (Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Birma, Bangladesh)
- Nubia (Sudan and Ethiopia; aka. Kush and Punt in ancient times)
- Mesoamerica (Aztecs and Maya)
- Tupí (Brazil)
- Guaraní (Argentina + Chile + Paraguay + Uruguay + Bolivia)
- Arawak (Venezuela + Colombia + Guayana/Suriname)
- Anasazi (Pueblo + Apache, etc)

... also did I similary merge the Netherlands with Germany (Germania), Portugal with Spain (Iberia), the Celts with Britain and France, Skandinavia between Germany and Russia, Korea with Japan (Nippon), as well as getting rid of Hittites and Asyrians and merging those with Babylon to get some space for further civs.

Merging Korea and Japan together as "Nippon" is quite odd, as is the merging of all of Southeast Asia into "Cambodia."

But then again, I don't usually consider making room for South American civs either.

Merging Korea and Japan together as "Nippon" is quite odd, as is the merging of all of Southeast Asia into "Cambodia."

But then again, I don't usually consider making room for South American civs either.
True... but I had new continents to fill while at the same time I didn't want to fully lose Korea as a civ, so merging it with a larger and influential nearby one seemed one of a mere few solutions-... wish Civ3 allowed more civs :(

With "Cambodia" I felt the need for a strong South-East Asian civ, despite of the fact the many very different civs all had their very own days of supremacy over another in their days. Perhaps a more accurate name would have been "South-East Asia" but that again sounded too unciv-ish :D In the end I'll leave Cambodia as working title- would be happy for suggestions for a better fitting one though.

I got alternative, all cobbled together, non-European civs in my epic game such as- Australasia (basicaly Indonesia, Malaya and the Phillipines),
- Cambodia (Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Birma, Bangladesh)
- Nubia (Sudan and Ethiopia; aka. Kush and Punt in ancient times)
- Mesoamerica (Aztecs and Maya)
- Tupí (Brazil)
- Guaraní (Argentina + Chile + Paraguay + Uruguay + Bolivia)
- Arawak (Venezuela + Colombia + Guayana/Suriname)
- Anasazi (Pueblo + Apache, etc)

What city-list/mil & sci leaders/LHs do you use for those? :confused: :lol:

Goto Search -> Advanced Search |-> Select [x] Search for Titles only; [x] Civilization III; [x] Key Word = "City List"


... then mix 'n match as seen fit (alternatively one may well get an Atlas ;) )

If your mod is going for anything historically accurate in that it features the major players of history, Isreal would be my choice. While Israel may not have been its own country for very long, its people have influenced history in a major way for centuries. New Guinea cannot match the Isreali cultural influences because it has never been that important on the world stage. However, Isreal does tend to be more Euro-centric, but that is only if you take into account the Diaspora, which might not necessarily have to happen in a less accurate scenario.

New Guinea does have an impressively long history, but from what I know of it it's mostly small tribes, nothing on a true Civ scale. I could very easily be wrong. It is also very different from the European countries, so it would introduce some diversity. I would also think that if you already have Polynesia, you could just absorb the New Guinea peoples, as they seem to be similar (probably not, but hey, what do I know?) What really clinches it for me is that the tribes in New Guinea have never technologically advanced past the late Stone Age in 40,000 years.

If it were up to me, I would put some goody huts, barbarians (like those great polynesian village units of Vuldacon's) or both on New Guinea, and add Isreal as a civilization.

On the flip side, you could put a Hebrew or Isreali resource in Isreal for other civs to recruit from and fight over and include New Guinea as a civilization.

The New Guineans had agriculture, so they did get to c. 8000 BC in European technology standards. But I get your point.

EDIT: Actually, a Tupi-Guarani civ isn't such a bad idea. Maybe instead of New Guinea/Israel?

What do y'all think?

EDIT: Actually, a Tupi-Guarani civ isn't such a bad idea. Maybe instead of New Guinea/Israel?

What do y'all think?
Me likes- tho I'll keep my Tupí and Guaraní split. Already have WWII-time unit sets for Brazil and Argentina made for SOE some time back, another good reason (at least for me) for having these civs ;)


S. America = Tupí, Guaraní, Arawak, Inka (4)
N. America = USA, CSA, Iroquois, Mesoamerica (4)
Africa = Carthage, Egypt, Nubia, Zululand (4-5)
Europe = Iberia, Britain, France, Germany, Italia, Hellas (6)
Asia Min. = Arabia, Babylon (2)
Asia Maj. = Rusia, Persia, Turk*, India, Mongolia, China, Cambodia (7)
Asia Pac. = Nippon, Australasia (2)

I might split Nubia into 2 civs (Ethiopia and Sudan) for more realism, or perhaps instead create a Mali civ.... not entirely sure yet.

So I got 29-30 civs with several starting cities in place at the moment with 1-2 spare civs of which I'll definitly use one of as misc., non-expanding, "ancient" civ wherever needed. I.e. a few cities here and there with a unique resource generating certain local units for a while, before they will eventualy be subdued (Great Plains Indians, Moche, Singhalese, Troya, Kanton) by the propper, full civs.


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* split between the Asia Minor and Major due to historical and balancing reasons