*** WARNING ***
Finding and locating BUGs in 2.7 is hard enough for Zappara without all the modmods.
Adding 4 or 5 modmods will make it nearly impossible. If you want to add this mod,
please do so at your own "risk". I'll try to help at the best of my abillity, but please
remember that I'm no Zappara ;)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=218903&d=1245902420

Updated to v1.1 (BtS 3.19 RoM 2.7) (Fusion Sub)

First of all thanks to Grand Seeker for the amazing idea.

Being a professional diver I have great interest for especially WWII subs and the role they played in both the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans. Their part in the war cribbled both the american/british atlantic supply routes (German Uboats) and the Japanese supply/resource retrivement in the south east asia (American Submarines), and lead to new scientific breakthrus to try to counter them. This mod will try to simulate the primary role of the submarines : Sink Cargo/Supply ships and the importent role of the destroyer : Convoy Escort.

It adds a feature to Submarine/Attack Submarine/Nuclear Submarine/Stealth Submarine, so they'll target transports first in a convoy.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=218656&d=1245734488

It also adds a feature to Modern Destroyers/AEGIS Cruisers/Stealth Destroyers/Fusion Destroyers to defend first from sub attacks.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=218657&d=1245734488

All in a respective way. A modern destroyer cannot defend the attack from a nuclear sub. For that you'll ned at an AEGIS or better.

What it does :

Sub attacks : Galleon/Fluyt/Transport/Landing Ship
Attack Sub attacks : Galleon/Fluyt/Transport/Landing Ship
Nuclear Sub attacks : Galleon/Fluyt/Transport/Landing Ship
Stealth Sub attacks : Galleon/Fluyt/Transport/Landing Ship/Fusion Transport
Fusion Sub attacks : Galleon/Fluyt/Transport/Landing Ship/Fusion Transport

Modern destroyer defends : Sub, AttSub
AEGIS cruiser defends : Sub, AttSub, NucSub
Stealth destroyer defends : Sub, AttSub, NucSub, SteSub
Fusion destroyer defends : Sub, AttSub, NucSub, SteSub, FuSub


Download moved to Vincentz Mods (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326447)

How is "defends first" handled? Let me quote my post from the question thread (I may be wrong so correct me ASAP):
Doesn't "defending first" for destroyers make them to defend first from other ships too?

Isn't it easier to make the destroyers in the list of "targets first" of submarine, thus (because the destroyer has more strength than transports) the destroyer will counter submarines while being the "normal" ship by other means.

Or is "defends first" working for a certain type of unit? Clarify please. I believe in your right, I just want to make sure :).

deleted....

Wait, I've asked, is "defends first" for Destroyers applied against submarines only, or in general?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8196488&postcount=8

Yeah, I see now.

<UnitClassDefenders>
<UnitClassDefender>
<UnitClassDefenderType>UNITCLASS_SUBMARINE</UnitClassDefenderType>
<bUnitClassDefender>1</bUnitClassDefender>
</UnitClassDefender>
<UnitClassDefender>
<UnitClassDefenderType>UNITCLASS_ATTACK_SUBMARINE</UnitClassDefenderType>
<bUnitClassDefender>1</bUnitClassDefender>
</UnitClassDefender>
</UnitClassDefenders>

I just haven't used this option myself so wondered about it. Great mini mod, it really adds some important strategy to submarines and anti-submarine ships. I am going to play my first 272test version now and so far I use all of your modmods.

Wait, I've asked, is "defends first" for Destroyers applied against submarines only, or in general?

Auch! I just looked at my cartoon post again, and what was supposed to be a joke, is .... not funny at all, and could be very misunderstood, therefore removing it.

:goodjob: This sounds like a neat idea. Why not make it available as a general mod(comp)? Would be great for any WW II mods, methinks.

:goodjob: This sounds like a neat idea. Why not make it available as a general mod(comp)? Would be great for any WW II mods, methinks.

The code is surprisingly easy, so feel free to take it and use it any way.
Right now I'm working on another RoM modmod, and since RoM is the only mod I play, I only do modding in RoM (WoC). Otherwise I had to make my mods in 4 or 5 different versions, which would surely make my head explode.

Once again, an excellent little module! Jungle camp was also a brilliant idea, keep up the good work!

The code is surprisingly easy, so feel free to take it and use it any way.
Right now I'm working on another RoM modmod, and since RoM is the only mod I play, I only do modding in RoM (WoC). Otherwise I had to make my mods in 4 or 5 different versions, which would surely make my head explode.

Well, we wouldn't want that... Let's just hope other modmakers pick up on it.;)

Great idea for a mod, now I have a reason to engage in submarine warfare against the AI (I usually engage in naval warfare with Battleship-Carrier fleets with cruisers and destroyers as defense against air and subs). Before, I used submarines only for spy transports.

Now if there was a way to represent unrestricted submarine warfare (submarine privateers that have a chance of giving a diplomatic penalty when used).

Great!

Actually, it was nice that you implemented my ide, such that I didnt have to :)

I haven't had time to try this, but guess it has to be upgraded with fusion subs for version 2.7
of RoM.

Great!

Actually, it was nice that you implemented my ide, such that I didnt have to :)

I haven't had time to try this, but guess it has to be upgraded with fusion subs for version 2.7
of RoM.

Upgrade uploaded : Silent Hunter 1.1.
Added fusion sub attack firsts and fusion destroyer defends first vs fusion sub.

This mod reminds me why I usually adds stuff instead of replace/change. Been looking over the files for a long time to see if Zappara changed/tweaked any of the involved units. Couldnt find any changes from 2.7test2 though. If you find any, let me know.

Hey Vincentz, great idea this. I am going to include this idea in the next version of my Merged Mod. :)

It was actually Grand Seekers idea. I just put it to work ;)
Feel free to use any or part of it :D

A modern destroyer cannot defend the attack from a nuclear sub. For that you'll ned at an AEGIS or better.

Why not? A nuclear sub, in the anti-ship role, is no different from any other type of submarine. In fact, it's not even quite as good in that role as a modern diesel sub, because it's not as quiet. The advantage of going nuclear is that it can be deployed anywhere on the globe and can stay at sea far longer without returning to port or being resupplied, but in the immediate reality of an anti-shipping action, it has no particular advantages over modern diesel subs.

Why not? A nuclear sub, in the anti-ship role, is no different from any other type of submarine. In fact, it's not even quite as good in that role as a modern diesel sub, because it's not as quiet. The advantage of going nuclear is that it can be deployed anywhere on the globe and can stay at sea far longer without returning to port or being resupplied, but in the immediate reality of an anti-shipping action, it has no particular advantages over modern diesel subs.

Points taken ;) The main reason for doing so was mostly the Rock/Paper/Scissor effect, but the Nuclear sub has greater speed, better hull (can go deeper), doesnt have to slow down submerged as a diesel sub, can stay underwater for years instead of a couple of days plus more importenly has an arsenal of ballistic/cruise missiles (Dont know if they even carry torpedoes anymore) So the radar/sonar/detection system plus the destroyers antisub weaponry has to be more advanced (No longer enough dropping a couple of depth charges ;)


Wiki's :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile_submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_missile_submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_submarine

This thread just reminded me of something: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6496153&postcount=385
Don't know if you know of this mod, but Wolf (who's not on this forum anymore) allowed his subs to gain flank attacks on transports. So basically, a sub which attacks and then withdraws gives flanking damage to transports, just like cavalry to cannons etc. I'm not sure if this would overpower subs - I mean, if both your changes and his are combined?

Points taken ;) The main reason for doing so was mostly the Rock/Paper/Scissor effect, but the Nuclear sub has greater speed, better hull (can go deeper), doesnt have to slow down submerged as a diesel sub, can stay underwater for years instead of a couple of days plus more importenly has an arsenal of ballistic/cruise missiles (Dont know if they even carry torpedoes anymore)

Like any submarine, they need to be reasonably close to the surface to engage. I suppose they might be more proficient at hit and run, seeing as they can flee to depth. They do have torpedoes, btw ... mostly for engaging other subs. But anti-submarine warfare has gotten alot more involved than just depth charges today. ASROC has been around for a long time now. Depth provides the possibility of evading detection, but it doesn't offer much protection from attack otherwise.

I'm not sure SLBMs can really be used all that well against shipping. Unless they were used to nuke a convoy. The newer SLBMs go orbital and then re-enter; they're strategic weapons, not tactical weapons. The older SLBMs required the sub to surface for launch. Anyway, in the game, SLBMs are represented by cruise missiles and tactical nukes loaded onto a sub.

I must also remind people that many of the modern weapons like nuclear submarine and electric submarine etc. has never been tested in real combat. There has not been a world war III (luckily).
But it is quit clear that modern submarines are a lot better than their WWII counterparts, and I dont think WWII technology can counter a modern submarine.

Also, I have heared about NATO exercises where a single simple small submarine was able to strike down an entire US career (by taking a picture at point blank proving they could have striken it down). The captein of that career got fired, but anyway it is highly reasonable that modern submarines can choose which target it will strike.

Maybe subs can get a bonus on coast? They are far more deadly if it has places to hide?

Idealy, a better model is that there is a chance that the destroyer will negate the subs special ability and a chance that it will not, but that would be a far more difficult model and I dont know if it would
add that muc except for some flavor.



Having the submarines

Flank attack versus transports sounds sensible. It's an existing mechanic, and it suits what they did do during their "hey-day" in WW2...

Flanking it is then. Will be put in next Vincentz Mods update.

No, flanking transporters is useless.

The point with submarines is that you are suppose to be able to DESTROY transports without taking out all the protective ships. If you can find an unprotected transport, well, then your warship will take it out anyway.

Once in a game the AI came towards me (regular BTS) with 20 ships, 10 of them war ships and 10 of them transport types. All wooden ships, while I had destroyers, battleships etc. Geuss what? I could not destroy ANY of the transports because I did not have enough ships.

Submarines should be able to KILL transports without taking out all protective ships, atleast if
the enemy does not have any destroyer present.

No, flanking transporters is useless.

The point with submarines is that you are suppose to be able to DESTROY transports without taking out all the protective ships. If you can find an unprotected transport, well, then your warship will take it out anyway.

Once in a game the AI came towards me (regular BTS) with 20 ships, 10 of them war ships and 10 of them transport types. All wooden ships, while I had destroyers, battleships etc. Geuss what? I could not destroy ANY of the transports because I did not have enough ships.

Submarines should be able to KILL transports without taking out all protective ships, atleast if
the enemy does not have any destroyer present.

It can do both :-)

There's no reason not to have it both do:

a) Attack Transports as priority
b) Flank attack other Transports in the same stack

That's what I meant :-)

Submarines should be able to KILL transports without taking out all protective ships, atleast if the enemy does not have any destroyer present.

try the mod ;) It already does that (taking out transports before other except if there is a capable destroyer type to prevent it. That is the function and reason of the mod (and originally your idea ;))

The flanking was only to expand the mod, and as mentioned, trying to simulate subs in their prime years. Often a captain of a WWII sub would target one cargoship with a couple of tubes and then fire the rest "from the hip" hoping to inflict damage and possible sink multible targets before detection. This would also encourage Wolfpacks which were multible subs coordinating an attack on a convoy to sink more targets than if they were attacking separately.

I have tried the mod, and I like it.

Sorry, but I thought you were going to replace the current version with flanking.
Ofcourse I would not mind having flanking in addision :)