View Full Version : Water instead of Food


Deliverator
Jun 28, 2009, 03:49 PM
I really like the idea of replacing Food with Water. It seems to make perfect sense for a Dune mod. So instead of Food, Water provides population growth and be necessary to sustain the population. Instead of Granaries you could have Reservoirs, and windtraps can now yield Water. I think this change would really help model life on Arrakis.

I have done a little graphical test. The water drop icon needs some improvement - darker edge, etc - and I still have a few more bread icons to hunt down, but you get the general idea.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219336&stc=1&d=1246222163

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219337&stc=1&d=1246222166

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219338&stc=1&d=1246222166

Apparently this has been discussed before so if there are points made in prior posts we can link them in.

So what are people's views?

The_J
Jun 28, 2009, 03:59 PM
Graphical it looks very good and fitting :goodjob:.

keldath
Jun 28, 2009, 03:59 PM
looks nice buddy - but - wont it contradict the water resource and fresh water?

Deliverator
Jun 29, 2009, 04:15 AM
So let's try and list some pros and cons of the idea:

Pros
1. Allows us to model water-rich and water-poor areas in a simple and natural way. (Cephalo is working on an Arrakis mapscript where the central regions are more water rich.)
2. Thematically, it helps communicate the importance of water on Dune.

Cons
1. Will require existing water resource/mechanics to be updated to produce more water (aka food).

cephalo
Jun 29, 2009, 08:30 AM
So let's try and list some pros and cons of the idea:

Pros
1. Allows us to model water-rich and water-poor areas in a simple and natural way. (Cephalo is working on an Arrakis mapscript where the central regions are more water rich.)
2. Thematically, it helps communicate the importance of water on Dune.

Cons
1. Will require existing water resource/mechanics to be updated to produce more water (aka food).

I think it makes perfect sense. I find these pros much weightier than the item in the con.

keldath
Jun 29, 2009, 10:31 AM
well...i go with the flow people...

whatever you think is right is fine with me...


i cant wait to get to the weekend so i can have a stable version for you guys to work on.

deadliver
Jun 29, 2009, 03:09 PM
I really like this idea! Clever.

davidlallen
Jun 29, 2009, 03:30 PM
If we can work this out, it will definitely fit the dune theme. But so far the idea seems "narrow" to me. If we remove the idea of growing things that produce food, we also have to remove the related concept of growing things with a health or happiness bonus. Then, the only bonuses on the map will be mineral ones. What would produce water besides a windtrap? That is one improvement. All the other ones related to growing need to be removed.

What map bonuses will produce water, what improvements will be related to water? If we cannot come up with a list almost as long as the list of food related bonuses and improvements in vanilla, the amount of decision-making will be greatly reduced.

BTW, as most people know there were at least two or three other threads about a Dune game which never got as far as releasing something. I have read over those in the past (not recently). I recall that all of them mentioned this idea, but nobody ever proposed a system which would replace food completely. It is possible that researching those threads may find something.

Another approach, rather than replacing food with water, may be to make the effects of water more severe. I may have made this worse in 1.1.4/1.2 rather than better, by removing the irrigation bonus of drip farms. Maybe instead, we could make this stronger, and set up the soil enricher, complex, drip farm, growth facility and greenhouse so that they *only* give bonuses if they have fresh water. In vanilla you can put a farm on a corn even if there is no fresh water, and get the health bonus. Maybe we can prevent that unless there is irrigation. We might need an improvement which is cheap, and *only* carries irrigation.

Ahriman
Jun 29, 2009, 03:48 PM
Agree with david here.

You could also increase the base level of unhealth, and increase the level of health provided to a city by having fresh water access, so cities are really not going to grow much unless they have fresh water.

koma13
Jun 29, 2009, 04:23 PM
I want to have water instead of food too. :cry: :)

We could finally make an immigration mod, removing the need of growth by water/food (or at least make it less important). Health could be managed by buildings. I also would not have a problem with reducing amount of bonus types, Arrakis is no Garden of Eden after all.

And if we really add this water concept I promise to make a nice cistern graphic inside city screen that fills up with water showing growth progress (instead of having that boring stack bar). :)

Deliverator
Jun 29, 2009, 04:32 PM
What map bonuses will produce water, what improvements will be related to water? If we cannot come up with a list almost as long as the list of food related bonuses and improvements in vanilla, the amount of decision-making will be greatly reduced.

This is a good objection, but I think with some imagination it may well be possible to come up with the necessary list of water producing bonuses and improvements. And I see no reason why we can't have water producing bonuses also adding health or happiness.

The Fremen make use of anything that contains water, even retrieving water from the bodies of their dead, it is fair to assume that any water containing plants such as cacti would be similarly exploited.

Also, I think we could use the mysticism of Dune as an excuse to have a variety of different water producing springs that also have magical qualities (health and happiness). So the bonuses could be different sorts of water spring-shrines almost.

Even if we fail, it would be fun to try and come up with a list of water bonuses and improvements. It just needs us to get into different mindset...

I am not dead opposed to the current system, but there is a lack of transparency with it. It is something that could be tricky for newcomers perhaps.

davidlallen
Jun 29, 2009, 04:33 PM
With a little juggling of the improvementinfos and bonusinfos file, it may be possible to make fresh water a much stronger requirement. There is an optional improvement field IrrigatedYieldChange. We could set the actual food benefit of the bonus and the improvement to zero, make the improvement only buildable on bonuses, and give it a large IrrigatedYieldChange.

If you consider a plot with a food bonus which is 2 squares away from your city, you would have to go through several steps to realize the increased yield. First, you need a windtrap on a hill or a city windtrap; second, you need to conduct the fresh water to the plot. This would probably require a new improvement whose only function is to carry irrigation.

We could construct this system. It is possible the AI could recognize the second step of building the irrigation improvement. I know that with the current windtrap implementation, the AI does not recognize that windtraps provide fresh water. The AI builds windtraps today because the improvement has a high food value and the building has a high AIWeight. So the AI builds it without really knowing why.

A clever player would search out food bonus plots with a hill nearby, to put a windtrap on the hill without requiring additional irrigation. The AI would never realize that.

As always, one challenge of designing any system is to make sure the AI has a reasonable chance of using it, or fake the AI into using it with AIWeight or other bonuses. Changing the core AI algorithm to actually consider this stuff requires a lot more understanding of the existing AI code.

Ahriman
Jun 29, 2009, 04:35 PM
This would basically mean that cities can only be constructed around bonus food resources. Is that really what you want?
I'd tend towards being able to still get +1 food with improvements and fresh water access.

If you wanted to do it how you describe though, change the improvements from being drip irrigation farms and soil enrichment, and make them irrigation pipeline and use modified road/magtube graphics.

Deliverator
Jun 29, 2009, 06:02 PM
The AI might be another good reason to simplify things.

Since the water-for-food idea seems to have some support, I think it is at least worth exploring. We can try to make bonuses, improvements and fresh water/irrigation all work sensibly within the idea.

Lord Tirian
Jun 29, 2009, 06:12 PM
I want to have water instead of food too.I'm throwing in a "Ditto" - I love mods most when they put an flavourful spin on main Civ concepts without changing gameplay too much. Water for food fits this criterion. It's still intuitive, but is an unique take on it, helping you to distinguish it from main Civ more (Spice does that as well, but it's more of an extra layer of stuff instead of "nice, elegant, own spin").

Cheers, LT.

TC01
Jun 29, 2009, 08:15 PM
I agree, I like when mods change things like this to make them more "unique."

What about doing something like in Mars, Now, where water is required to build cities?

Deliverator
Jun 30, 2009, 04:47 AM
If we cannot come up with a list almost as long as the list of food related bonuses and improvements in vanilla, the amount of decision-making will be greatly reduced.

This seems to be the key objection so here's my best stab at fleshing out the proposal.

Here's the list of food bonuses, improvements and buildings from vanilla:
Food Resources

Banana: +1 food
Improvement: Plantation (+2 food, +1 health)

Clam: +1 food
Improvement: Fishing Boats (+2 food, +1 health)

Corn: +1 food
Improvement: Farm (+2 food, +1 health)

Cow: +1 food
Improvement: Pasture (+1 food, +2 hammers, +1 health)

Crab: +1 food
Improvement: Fishing Boats (+2 food, +1 health)

Deer: +1 food
Improvement: Camp (+2 food, +1 health)

Fish: +1 food
Improvement: Fishing Boats (+3 food, +1 health)

Pig: +1 food
Improvement: Pasture (+3 food, +1 health)

Rice: +1 food
Improvement: Farm (+1 food, +1 health)

Sheep: +1 food
Improvement: Pasture (+2 food, +1 commerce, +1 health)

Wheat: +1 food
Improvement: Farm (+2 food, +1 health)

Luxury Resources producing Food

Spices: +1 commerce
Improvement: Plantation (+1 food, +2 commerce, +1 happiness)

Sugar: +1 food
Improvement: Plantation (+1 food, +1 commerce, +1 happiness)

Whale: +1 food
Improvement: Whaling Boats (+1 hammer, +2 commerce, +1 happiness)

Wine: +1 commerce
Improvement: Winery (+1 food, +2 commerce, +1 happiness)

List of Improvements
Farm
Pasture
Fishing Boats
Camp
Plantation
Whaling Boats
Winery

Food Related Buildings

Granary: Stores 50% of food after growth; +1 health from Corn, Rice, Wheat;
Lighthouse: +1 food on water tiles;
And here's a list I've come up with using water instead of food.
Water Resources

Lesser Spring: +1 water
Improvement: Garden (+1 water , +1 health, +1 happiness)

Spring: +1 water
Improvement: Garden (+2 water , +1 health, +1 happiness)

Abundant Spring: +1 water
Improvement: Garden (+3 water , +1 health, +1 happiness)

Underground Stream: +1 water
Improvement: Well (+1 water, +1 health)

Underground River: +1 water
Improvement: Well (+2 water, +1 health)

Underground Lake: +1 water
Improvement: Well (+3 water, +1 health)

Desert Grasses: +1 water
Improvement: Dew Collectors (+1 water, +1 health)

Desert Shrubs: +1 water
Improvement: Dew Collectors (+2 water, +1 health)

Atmospheric Moisture: +1 water
Improvement: Windtrap (+2 water, +1 health)

Luxury Resources producing Water

Prophecy Spring: +1 water
Improvement: Water Shrine (+1 water, +1 happiness)

Ancient Spring: +1 water
Improvement: Water Shrine (+1 water, +1 happiness)

Healing Spring: +1 water
Improvement: Water Shrine (+1 water, +1 health, +1 happiness)

Water of Life: +1 water
Improvement: Blessing/Transumutation (+1 water, +1 happiness)
(Can be a requirement for certain units)

List of Improvements
Well
Garden
Windtrap
Dew Collectors
Water Shrine
Blessing/Transumutation

Water Buildings
Catchbasin: Stores 50% of water after growth;
Qanat Network: +1 water from all tiles
General notes:
1) In vanilla, you build agricultural improvements on tiles that already produce food. The idea for Dune is that you build improvements that both extract or retain more water from tiles that already produce water. So building a Garden on a Spring for example, increases water retention and therefore increase the water yield.
2) I am leveraging the mysticism of Dune to have some water resources also providing happiness. That said I think we should make the spice have a happiness effect as well as a commercial one.
3) Can we make all water producing bonuses also sources of fresh water, so that irrigation can be spread from them to tiles with no water? Irrigated tiles then produce +1 water. We might have to make irrigation harder/slower.
4) I think it is OK if the list of bonuses and improvements is not quite as long as vanilla. It is sort of appropriate in a way since water is meant to be scarce. We can adjust the prevalence of resources as necessary to ensure that civs grow at a decent rate.
5) Don't worry about representing these things graphically. I'm sure we can come up with something that looks good in each case.

davidlallen
Jun 30, 2009, 09:42 AM
We could finally make an immigration mod, removing the need of growth by water/food (or at least make it less important).

You mentioned this a while back, and I did not quite understand then either. What do you mean by immigration here? Moving population from one city to another does not seem to be what you mean. What is the mechanic for getting a new population point in your city? Spending 100 gold?

Here's the list of food bonuses, improvements and buildings from vanilla:[...] And here's a list I've come up with using water instead of food.

This sounds reasonable; it is a "reskin" of bonuses, if you want. I can throw together the xml for this in the next day or two. There are no appropriate bonus graphics or improvement graphics. Since this would be highly experimental, it is probably not worth making them yet. But it means that I would use existing plant bonus graphics, and you will have to mouse-over the bonuses to see what they are. That may be OK for local experimentation.

One minor point, I don't think "Water of Life" should come from a map improvement. At some point we should add the sandworm ecological cycle of little makers. Water of life is created by drowning a little maker, and you need it to "build" a Reverend Mother. This is probably worth a thread on its own, but I don't have a proposal to start it out with.

Deliverator
Jun 30, 2009, 10:05 AM
This sounds reasonable; it is a "reskin" of bonuses, if you want. I can throw together the xml for this in the next day or two. There are no appropriate bonus graphics or improvement graphics. Since this would be highly experimental, it is probably not worth making them yet. But it means that I would use existing plant bonus graphics, and you will have to mouse-over the bonuses to see what they are. That may be OK for local experimentation.


The whole thing is, in effect, a reskin of the food yield as water, and more cosmetic than functional at this stage. That said, I think it could take us in some interesting directions as we play with it. Placeholder graphics are fine for now, we can make or adapt some proper stuff if we decide to take the idea forward. I can give you the water drop graphics I've done which can also be improved later.

One minor point, I don't think "Water of Life" should come from a map improvement. At some point we should add the sandworm ecological cycle of little makers. Water of life is created by drowning a little maker, and you need it to "build" a Reverend Mother. This is probably worth a thread on its own, but I don't have a proposal to start it out with.

You're right, I was stretching a bit with that one. The Water of Life is normally poisonous so it is not really appropriate to have it yield +1 water unimproved. The worm cycle is worth a thread, but I would like to discuss Civs, Leaders and the possibility of some Dune Wars specific traits first.

Ahriman
Jun 30, 2009, 10:09 AM
I think the existing plant resources have way more flavor than just 10 different variations on "spring". These resources sound do-able, but not very interesting.

Also, gardens really don't produce more water; they suck them away.
One of the classic lines in Dune is about the townspeople looking at the date palms, and realizing that they each took up as much water as 20 men, and hoping that they would at least produce some fruit, but how this was in vain since they were out of season.
And there is other stuff about the massive luxury of the garden in the Governor's palace, and the popular resentment of it.

I would suggest; rather than making vanilla Food into water, make City Health into water.

So the limits to city growth are determined by both its food supply and its water supply. I think this makes a lot of sense; even without a big local water supply, you can substitute food for water by cutting back on city growth by using what water you have for people rather than agrictulture.
(Currently in developed countries, ~60% of water is used for agriculture, 35% for industry and only 5% by households - and most of that is for washing, and a little for cooking, not personal consumption. In developing countries I think its even higher for agriculture, and also higher for households)

Some ideas for this:
a) Take away the health bonuses from the various granary type buildings. Condense these buildings; there are too many of these anyway. Retool some of the other buildings that already give health so that it makes sense with them providing water. Many of them already make sense; you already have an aqueduct type building that gives a health bonus.
Don't have too many of these; currently health isn't often a binding constraint; food is much harder to come by.
b) Keep the current food resources, they have great flavor, but they just provide bonus tile yields (as some of them do already). You build a drip farm (or its upgrades)/soil enricher/complex on them.
These substitute for farm/pasture/plantation.
Drip farms and their upgrades are buildable anywhere. They provide 0 food on a normal tile, +1 with fresh water access, and a further +1 on a bonus resource.
Soil enricher and complex are buildable only on bonus resources, and also get a bonus +1 food for fresh water access.
c) Add in a few water resources from your list above that need to have a well or deep well built on top of them, that then provide a health resource to all your cities in the same way that rice/corn/etc. do in addition to improving tile yields.
You could replace some of the current health buildings with things like water-sellers market that gives a bonus health from these resources.
Deep well could be an improvement over normal wells with higher tech requirements that gives an extra tile output bonus, and/or also provides a local health bonus like forests do in vanilla.
I like the idea you have of multiple improvements that are better than previous ones; this gives workers something to do late game by rebuilding resources, rather than instantly getting an empire-wide uprgade from discovering a tech that gives +1 food to farms like in vanilla.
d) Have the windtrap tile improvement provide health to the nearby city in the same way that forests do +1 health per , in addition to a +2 food tile yield (improved by techs) and providing fresh water.
e) Various factories and such create unhealth because they require water to run, or because they pollute local water supplies.
You could also have Garden buildings that add happiness or commerce but provide negative health.
f) Then substitute Water (and the cool water drop icon you have above) everywhere that I said health.

Deliverator
Jun 30, 2009, 10:40 AM
I think this Water for Health alternative could be a really good way forward, provided we can give it enough teeth. Thirsty replaces unhealthy. There are a lot of good ideas here.

Minor points
1. I think fresh water should come from the wells and not just windtraps.
2. Could we keep the Desert Grass and Dew Collectors? That is one of my favourites.

Ahriman
Jun 30, 2009, 10:47 AM
Minor points
1. I think fresh water should come from the wells and not just windtraps.
2. Could we keep the Desert Grass and Dew Collectors? That is one of my favourites.

1. Sounds doable.
In this case, you might want to remove the fresh-water-everywhere from the city windtrap (and just make it a health provider and maybe +1 gold), to make fresh water a bit rarer.
Either that, or make the city windtrap, the windtrap improvement, and the well all provide fresh water in adjacent tiles, but do NOT allow drip irrigation/soil enrichment etc. to spread fresh water.
So you can only get a food bonus from a non-bonus resource if it is in adjacent tile to a water supplier.

2. I like both of these, they have great flavor.

davidlallen
Jun 30, 2009, 12:02 PM
I would suggest; rather than making vanilla Food into water, make City Health into water.

Cool! This has a big impact on the system. But it "feels" very do-able. If there are any Fury Road players out there, we "reskinned" culture as safety. For a post-apocalyptic world with very dangerous terrain, the cultural borders represent how far away you can keep your population safe. That fit very well into the theme. I think reskinning health as water should work.

We have to think out the implications from the design standpoint a little more. For example, one key source of health in vanilla is bonuses, and then buildings which amplify the benefit. Like banana -> plantation -> grocer. If we use water as health, it seems that plant bonuses should *cost* water.

So far everything sounds like an xml/graphics change, which is good, but we need to keep in mind whether the AI will understand how to use these things.

Ahriman
Jun 30, 2009, 12:42 PM
Yes, this has a big impact.

The main impact is in changing buildings that give health or unhealth bonuses, either directly or through resources.
Many existing buildings give health bonuses that could be perceived as providing water (like the Quanat or whatever), but many others (hospitals, Suk doctors, etc.) currently give health. These buildings would need to be cut or amended.

We have to think out the implications from the design standpoint a little more. For example, one key source of health in vanilla is bonuses, and then buildings which amplify the benefit. Like banana -> plantation -> grocer. If we use water as health, it seems that plant bonuses should *cost* water.

I'm not sure about this.
I'd think of it this way; a food bonus resource basically represents a naturally occurring area of some crop, with its own water supply. Its perfectly possible that you could harvest the crop without needing to irrigate it more, or even to tap into their water supply for your own uses. Basically a bonus food resource represents a water supply; think about oases in deserts, plants grow there because there happens to be a natural water supply, like a spring or aquifer. So the bonus food growth at that oasis really represents the water supply, not that some random plants happen to be there; the better agriculture is possible BECAUSE of the water supply.
Or imagine a bunch of cacti growing in the desert; if you set up an operation to harvest them, you could eat them, or you could extract water out of them, or both.
So its perfectly possible that some food resources could still provide positive health (ie water) from a building, or at least do no harm, because they're using their own water source.

Definitely though you could make the highest level farm improvements require water:
So you have drip farms (0 food, +1 with fresh water, +1 with bonus resource)
Growth complex (1 food, +1 with fresh water, +1 with bonus resource)
And Mark III farm (don't know what name) that gives 2 food +1 with fresh water, +1 with bonus resource, but also gives +1 unhealth to the nearby city, because it takes some water to irrigate intensive agrictulture.
Or you could make the mark 2 farms give +1 unhealth and the mark 3 farm give +2 unhealth.

But I WOULD make city improvements that require lots of water have unhealth penalties.
This could include gardens, urban plantations, industrial plants, spice factories and refining plants, etc.

As far as the AI goes, I think it would mostly handle it.
The AI will still build windtraps whenever possible because of their tile yields, even though it didn't understand how they provided fresh water.
It would still build wells because these, like pastures/plantations, activate the bonus resource, and will give tile yields.
It will still build buildings that give health bonuses if its city is low on health.
It will still build farms where these give positive food bonuses (ie where they have fresh water).

Some of these changes would even improve the relative performance of the AI; the AI only really chooses improvements based on the tile yields of particular tiles (and I think to some extent of the needs of the nearby city that uses them). Its never really been any good at understanding how long chains of irrigation can work; in vanilla civ the AI often does badly on maps that have few sources of fresh water, because it doesn't understand how to build long chains of farms out to other cities so that farms can be built there too.
This problem goes away if drip farms etc. do not in fact spread fresh water. The AI will build wells and windtraps because of their tile bonuses, and then build farms on the tiles around them where a farm has a positive yield, and then build cottages and turbines on the other tiles.
(This will be even better if you require drip farms to require fresh water access in order to be built; so you can build them only on a fresh water resource, or adjacent to a windtrap or well.)
The one thing the AI won't understand is that it should choose to place its windtraps adjacent to bonus resources that get farms built on them, but this is probably managable.

You could also make the city windtraps give some other bonus or make sure they have a sufficiently high AI weighting so that the AI always builds them.

koma13
Jun 30, 2009, 09:09 PM
You mentioned this a while back, and I did not quite understand then either. What do you mean by immigration here? Moving population from one city to another does not seem to be what you mean. What is the mechanic for getting a new population point in your city? Spending 100 gold?


Well, I would like to have an ingame representation of immigration/emigration to/from outside of Arrakis (remember that scene, where Duke Leto asked Gurney to convince emigrants that worked for the Harkonnen to stay on Arrakis?).

We could create a counter (similar to the great person/general counter) that if full, grants you some population (or an addition military unit). The counter could be increased maybe by culture, unworked tiles or financial situation. When conditions in you empire are bad (famine, unsuccessful wars, high revolution index) , that counter would go backwards and if empty would lead to emigration. To get immigration in a city you would need to have enough food to support an additional population point. There also can be some coincidence involved. Civics could increase or decrease (slavery) that too. We could also make an event that occurs when you conquer a foreign city.
In general that could give us an additional way to alter/increase population not 100% related to terrain values.

Ahriman
Jul 01, 2009, 07:12 AM
While I realize my opinion doesn't matter much, I'd vote against such a system.
It seems needlessly frustrating and confusing for not much gain.

The biggest argument I would make against it is the lack of transparency (particularly if it involves randomness). It is likely to be very frustrating to just randomly lose population points from your cities.

And in most societies, migrant workers are a pretty small proportion of the total population/workforce (rare exceptions; some of the middle east oil states, with large numbers of expats), so its not really important to keep track of.

I also think the cost of harsh societies losing workforce and benevolent societies gaining them is much more easily handled with the existing happiness system.
If you whip your people to death through slavery (which isn't worth it atm given how hard it is to get food), then you potentially lose even more workers from the long-term unhappiness. If you build what could be a Harkonnen UB, it provides extra unhappiness. If you act benololent and build your people lots of happiness infrastructure, or are just a nice charasmatic Atreides, then you don't suffer from unhappiness and have a larger effective workforce.
One thing the mod needs is to make happiness a little more difficult to acquire; get rid of a lot of happiness inducing buildings, happiness never seems to really be a binding constraint.

cephalo
Jul 01, 2009, 08:19 AM
You know, I never liked the health system in Civ4. If your city lacked health, you just keep playing and the problem will eventually go away. It was rarely the limiting factor.

I think it's simpler and easier to just get rid of health and maybe even happiness, and just replace food with water. Dune is not a place where people go for happiness or to develop their culture. It's a place of war. Everyone wants to control the spice, because nobody can be trusted to share. This isn't about finding happiness on Dune, and if anything it's more risky to ones health.

I'm thinking that a unit of population is on a different scale than in a game about human history on Earth. Food is something you bring with you. You aren't sowing fields with grain to support huge cities.

davidlallen
Jul 01, 2009, 08:53 AM
I'm thinking that a unit of population is on a different scale than in a game about human history on Earth. Food is something you bring with you. You aren't sowing fields with grain to support huge cities.

I had thought of that also, especially if we make a map which only covers the polar region. My math says the 60 degree polar cap is 1/16 the area of the whole planet. So if a normal civ map covers the whole planet, the polar map you have made is sixteen times smaller.

We could divide all the statistic reports such as population, number of soldiers, tons of food etc by 10. I'm not sure how that actually affects gameplay; maybe it doesn't.

BTW, looking forward to another rev of your mapscript... ?

Ahriman
Jul 01, 2009, 09:14 AM
I think in the Dune world an awful lot of the food *is* still produced locally. Interstellar shipping is immensely expensive, planets still have to be mostly self-sufficient.

If you could import food, why not drinking water? If you didn't need the water for agriculture or industry and were only using it for human consumption, then the daily mass of food a person eats per day is similar to the daily mass of water they drink; and the water waste can be recycled more easily than the food waste output can.
But definitely the fluff tells us that mass-importing drinking water would be infeasible.

Removing health and happiness would be pretty boring really, and health is a logical mechanic for constraining city growth.

cephalo
Jul 01, 2009, 11:59 AM
I think in the Dune world an awful lot of the food *is* still produced locally. Interstellar shipping is immensely expensive, planets still have to be mostly self-sufficient.

If you could import food, why not drinking water? If you didn't need the water for agriculture or industry and were only using it for human consumption, then the daily mass of food a person eats per day is similar to the daily mass of water they drink; and the water waste can be recycled more easily than the food waste output can.

Removing health and happiness would be pretty boring really, and health is a logical mechanic for constraining city growth.

Do the books ever talk about how people feed themselves on Dune? They talk alot about water, but one would imagine that food would be every bit as scarce.

Civ4 uses water in a very indirect way, I think just to make things simpler. I'm thinking that since water is the fictional issue on Dune, then it makes sense to reverse that aspect of abstraction. I'm not sure you want to keep track of two items of produce unless you can really tie it to the Dune universe.

Health shouldn't come up in my opinion since these are times of advanced technology and low population density. On ancient Earth people didn't know about the importance of hygene and so health was a major issue.

Happiness also doesn't make much sense here. People come for jobs either spice mining or soldiering. Although, you could call happiness 'morale', and then you are talking about making life on Dune bearable, rather than 'happy'. Changing 'happiness' to 'morale' might be more appropriate.

Ahriman
Jul 01, 2009, 12:17 PM
I don't think the books ever really talk about the food of the local populace.

Definitely the Fremen aren't importing massive amounts of food from off-world, and I don't think anyone else is really either (otherwise why can't they import drinking water?).

I'm fine for no "health" in the sense of hospitals and such, but the mechanic (having to get water resources and build structures to prevent growth from being choked off) works fine.

I see no problem with having water modeled twice, one in fresh water access for farms, and another as having enough water to allow for population growth.
If you wanted to make water even more important, then increase the basic unhealth/thirst of each citizen to 1.25 per population point, rather than the base +1.
Water discipline civic could also reduce the unhealthiness (ie thirst) of each citizen, so you didn't need as much water to keep people alive.

And whether you call it happiness or morale, its still the same mechanic; people are happier and potentially more productive under Atreides rule than under Harkonnen rule for example.
You can think of the production penalty from having "unhappy citizens" who don't work as basically just being the productivity toll from ill-treatment, and for not providing enough creature comforts.
Though Harkonnen are probably better at whipping people than other factions; they could arguably have a structure that gave a hammer bonus from unhappy citizens (like the genejack factory in the Planetfall mod, or some of the Calabim stuff in FFH?).
But the mechanic still works; importing luxuries or investing resources in building up better amenities for civilian workers will improve their productivity.

Another thought; Atreides should get a penalty to espionage point production, which would have the added effect of making them more vulnerable to espionage.

zup
Jul 02, 2009, 05:20 AM
Can you live food alone, but change health into 'water'? Then remove health boni from food resources. Increase unhealth from population. Many buildings that logically use up water will give high health penalties. Make unhealth a real issue, something that will collapse your economy unless you do something about it. Keep/make a water resource that gives health, a deposit of ground water or something, which has a cumulative bonus (like life mana in Fall from Heaven). A windtrap improvement could add some health to a city, as well as providing farms with much needed irrigation. Farm type improvements are pretty much worthless without irrigation (maybe just +1 food with a food resource such as sword grass). Irrigation makes them a worthwhile investment.

Also, maybe rather than building more advanced improvements (drip farming obsoleted by growth facilities) they could grow like cottages over time. Mines are dug deeper, farming operations expanded and such. Admitted, it leaves you very vulnerable to pillaging as improvements are more difficult to replace but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Deliverator
Jul 02, 2009, 06:16 AM
This is exactly what Ahriman has suggested if you read above.

At the moment I think Water for Health could be the best way forward. Both food and water are necessary for growth. People are a bit prejudiced against health because it has never really had any teeth compared with happiness - but we can change that. This way we keep the flavourful food boni we already have, plus we can add water producing boni/improvements from my suggestion list such as Underground River/Well and Desert Grass/Dew Collectors. We can use the nice water drop graphic instead of the health red cross (we'd need a thirst icon to replace unhealth).

Ahriman has posted lots of good ideas here that could work really well. Perhaps we can put together a patch to test rebranding health as water and see if we can rework the boni, improvements and buildings in such a way as to make water a real necessity in city expansion. It would be good to try removing a few superfluous buildings at the same time.

davidlallen
Jul 02, 2009, 09:08 AM
I started writing the xml for "water as health" and immediately ran into a problem. When you build an improvement on a bonus it gives a benefit such as happiness or health. At *every connected city*. So that one spring you discover when you have 6 cities, would immediately give a water benefit at every city. That does not seem right. I can modify the buildings to give and take water, which makes sense. We can have wonders and civics that adjust water by continent or globally which also seems fine.

But I cannot think of any way to make improvements give water only locally, instead of globally. What do you think, is there a way around this or is this not really a problem?

Deliverator, could you post the icon you have anyway, in case we find a workable system?

cephalo
Jul 02, 2009, 09:37 AM
I started writing the xml for "water as health" and immediately ran into a problem. When you build an improvement on a bonus it gives a benefit such as happiness or health. At *every connected city*. So that one spring you discover when you have 6 cities, would immediately give a water benefit at every city. That does not seem right. I can modify the buildings to give and take water, which makes sense. We can have wonders and civics that adjust water by continent or globally which also seems fine.

But I cannot think of any way to make improvements give water only locally, instead of globally. What do you think, is there a way around this or is this not really a problem?

Deliverator, could you post the icon you have anyway, in case we find a workable system?

Can you tune the game so that it's ok that it spreads to every connected city? That doesn't seem like it needs to be so bad. It mimics the health mechanic which makes it easy to understand.

Ahriman
Jul 02, 2009, 09:54 AM
I would say 3 things.

a) There should be a handful of resources like water springs that do in fact give +1 health in every city you control.
But many fewer than there are in vanilla. So instead of rice/wheat/corn/pig/cow/sheep/banana/fish/crab/clam etc. you could have maybe 4 global health resources: spring, aquifer, desert grass, and one other.
So spring requires a Well improvement, aquifer (or Deep Spring) requires a Deep Well improvement (with a higher tech), desert grass requires a dew collector (with a desert survival tech
Make the resources fairly common, so its not that hard to get 1 of each for even a medium-sized empire (so there aren't too many bonuses to being big - being big should be its own bonus) but you don't keep getting more and more bonuses from expanding further.
[In contrast; in vanilla civ a small empire might have 3-4 health resources, but a large one might have 6-7 food resources; the more variety of resources are, the bigger are the total bonuses you get, and you get a slippery slope reward for expansion; bigger empires have more health and happiness resources and so get bigger cities, so can expand even more.]

Should sand trout provide water or food? I forget.
The existing Dune mod resources (burro weed, sand verbena, etc) stay in, but just provide tile food bonuses.

b) Certain terrain improvements, like the windtrap and well, give a localized health bonus in the same way that forests do (maybe +1 health each?). So having a Spring resource near a city gives a small tile food bonus, a small global health bonus, and a localized health bonus for that city.
It still makes sense for tubers (=dune forests) to provide health to their local city.
On earth, deforestation leads to a reduction in rainfall and humidity.
Though you could drop the bonus from +0.5 to +0.4.
My one worry is the AI has a tendency to clear away all forest quickly, whereas it might need to keep some here for the health bonuses.

c) Certain structures provide an intrinsic health bonus (like the city wind trap, quanat, etc.), certain others provide a bonus health from the water resources (maybe the reservoir gives +1 water from the spring and aquifer resources) and maybe some of the food resources (eg a food processing plant could give +1 water from the cactus resource and the phibian root or burro weed resource - you bring back the stuff growing in the wild and extract the water from it).

So water supply for a city depends a tiny bit on global resources, but mostly on local terrain improvement infrastructure and city building infrastructure.
So, you have to invest in workers and city improvements in order to have a large city.

Deliverator
Jul 02, 2009, 11:18 AM
But I cannot think of any way to make improvements give water only locally, instead of globally. What do you think, is there a way around this or is this not really a problem?

Mmmm. I'd really like water to be a local issue.

How about changing Water to Food as originally proposed, but then switch Health/Unhealth for Food/Hunger?

That way water can be a local issue which I feel is appropriate for Dune, and food (or lack of it) is a more abstract restriction on growth, which is also appropriate given that food is not mentioned much in the books.

This would mean that we keep the flavourful food bonuses that Ahriman doesn't want to lose, but we can have the water-rich and water-poor terrains that was one of the original motivations of this idea. I think we can improve/reduce my list of water producing bonuses to avoid the 10 different-sorts-of-spring problem.

Plus it is very natural to have things to have things that are both sources of water and food.

Ahriman
Jul 02, 2009, 12:51 PM
Well, my design above would still make water largely a local concern.

Substituting water for health is a pretty easy change. Making water food and food health is likely to get pretty confusing for normal civ players.
I guess you could do it that way though. Then you'd have to change all the food improvements to be providing water (greenhouses and drip-irrigation farms don't really provide water) and fresh water access on terrain wouldn't really make sense.
But localizing water and making food non-local doesn't really make that much more sense than making food local and non-local water; both would be moveable around a single planet given Dune technology.

And I wouldn't worry too much about things providing both water and food, because food and health are already substitutes. Something that gives more health is the same as something that gives more food if the city is thirsty (ie if unhealth > health).

My idea for this is that health should be nearly *always* a binding constraint; water sources are rare enough that cities will nearly always have unhealth > health.
This also means that food from terrain needs to be widely available.

Deliverator
Jul 02, 2009, 03:00 PM
Making water food and food health is likely to get pretty confusing for normal civ players.

I thought the same, so we could call it Nutrients or Nutrition and have new icon for it. Unhealthy becomes Malnourished. We could use the Planetfall/SMAC Nutrient icon perhaps.

Fresh water can just mean water. It is produced by the water bonuses, and then you can irrigate from there to add +1 water to the surrounding tiles. We might have to make irrigation harder/slower as I've said before. I think that would be simple for people to understand.

With the Water for Health model, I can't see there ever being contention for water resources.

Ahriman
Jul 02, 2009, 03:59 PM
With the Water for Health model, I can't see there ever being contention for water resources.

I can, easily. If at nearly all times your unhealth > your health, then getting more water resources is a crucial way to increase your city size.

If a new water resource boosts growth in your entire empire (because its a health resource), then you should definitely fight for it.

With your way, water resources are just tile improvements. Why would you go to war for just a single food tile increase?

There will be more contention for water if water is health than if water is food.

koma13
Jul 02, 2009, 04:03 PM
When was the last time you went for war in civ4 because of health improving bonus resources? :)

Deliverator
Jul 02, 2009, 04:26 PM
Well, in Civ4 lack of health is never really an issue because health bonuses and buildings are so readily available. Ahriman is proposing we make health much more difficult to come by and then rebrand it water.

Could we tackle the problem david raised with Water for Health at the city connection end? I know we don't want roads, but could we limit the connectedness of cities somehow. Initially only cities on the same rock islands are connected and as you progress up the tech tree, cities on other islands also become connected.

I'd like to understand why more people in this thread seemed to be attracted by the Water for Food idea as originally presented. For example, would the reaction described in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8219869&postcount=15) still happen if we go with Water for Health. The Water for Health option would be more subtle, less immediately obvious.

koma13
Jul 02, 2009, 05:24 PM
Could we tackle the problem david raised with Water for Health at the city connection end? I know we don't want roads, but could we limit the connectedness of cities somehow. Initially only cities on the same rock islands are connected and as you progress up the tech tree, cities on other islands also become connected.


The only other way of making cities connected without serious sdk changes I can think of would be buildings (habour/airport).

I'd like to understand why more people in this thread seemed to be attracted by the Water for Food idea as originally presented. For example, would the reaction described in this post still happen if we go with Water for Health. The Water for Health option would be more subtle, less immediately obvious.

Replacing Water for Food is only a flavor change without the need of relearning the concept. As many have pointed out health in civ4 isn't something you really have to care about. This would change if we implement Ahriman's water for health concept. We all know that many players are lazy when it comes to learn new conecpts (me included). We have to take care that players don't quit playing dune wars because being overwhelmed by new elements. This could be achieved by introducing new concepts step by step or at least making sure that they don't have too much impact on early game play.

Ahriman
Jul 02, 2009, 05:51 PM
I think either water for health or water for food would be pretty easy to understand for a new player.

However, food for health could get confusing.

And I'd say yes you'd go to war for a health resource if that resource effectively meant +2 food per turn in all your cities (+1 base, +1 more from a building, all non-tiny cities have binding health issues). Thats like a free specialist worker.

cephalo
Jul 02, 2009, 10:33 PM
Another reason that I didn't like health in Civ4 is that you have two things kinda doing the same thing. Commerce, food, production and happiness all have their separate functions, but health just kinda piggybacks onto food. I'm kinda glad that you're kindof able to ignore health and still enjoy the game, otherwise I might have been frustrated with managing twp different foods.

Lord Tirian
Jul 03, 2009, 03:39 AM
I'd like to understand why more people in this thread seemed to be attracted by the Water for Food idea as originally presented. For example, would the reaction described in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8219869&postcount=15) still happen if we go with Water for Health. The Water for Health option would be more subtle, less immediately obvious.It's more splashy - you see it immediately and you get these water icons.

Furthermore, health/happiness are restriction mechanics, while they are important, it's harder to really love something that puts a cap on your city size despite having enough food.

Water as food means: "I have to look out for more water to get my empire growing"; water as health means: "I have to look for water bonuses to raise my water cap". The latter is a somehow more powerful idea. Finally, water-for-food hits you in your face, the very first time you open your city screen - you immediately get the fact "I need water!".

This said, I like both ideas, though I'm slightly in favour of water-for-food.

Cheers, LT.

Ahriman
Jul 03, 2009, 09:35 AM
I guess my biggest problem with water for food is that it doesn't make sense for the existing food resources to be providing large amounts of water, and it doesn't make sense for drip farms/greenhouses etc. to provide water, and it doesn't really make sense for the landscape of Dune in general to be providing water from every tile.

Its a desert, with a few underground springs and aquifers in particular places. You can build a few windtraps and get a tiny bit from dew collectors, but wells and such only come from a few tiles. It doesn't make sense to be able to build a water-providing improvement on most flat-land tiles, but the mod really does need to be able to build farm-type improvements on a lot of flatland tiles in order for the AI to get decent city development.

And second, you then lose food entirely, which is weird, or make food for health, which is even more weird.

Deliverator
Jul 03, 2009, 10:06 AM
It doesn't really make sense for the landscape of Dune to be providing food from every tile either. It was one of the first things that irked me about the mod.

I'm going to take all this input and have a second go at respecifying the bonuses in terms of Water for Food. I'm thinking the following:

1) Most terrain tiles produce no water. The water producing bonus tiles produce much more water than before to compensate for the lack of water from non-bonus tiles. Remember we can tune the prevalence of the bonuses in the XML to ensure growth. We can have two (or more) levels of improvement (e.g. Well, Deep Well) on each which scale up the water output of these tiles by a suitably large amount. Improved water tiles can produce 10-15 units of water - whatever level feels right.

2) We can either have a improvement that can be built everywhere that will provide a small amount of water, or use Fresh Water/Irrigation mechanic to add water output to water-less tiles. This can represent the building of qanats from water sources.

3) We can keep the existing food resources as sources of health/happiness and, where appropriate, targets for the Dew Collectors improvement to produce some water.

Since, it will be an XML only change it will easiest enough to try this out and play with the numbers.

cephalo
Jul 03, 2009, 01:11 PM
I think maybe my main objection to food is the 'bread' icon. That implies the sowing of verdant fields. In my research for the map I found somewhere that the Fremen domesticated kangaroo rats for food. Maybe if we made it into a mouselike icon, it might just be revolting enough to emphasize Dune's barreness.

Another thing that might give the mod a different flavor in addition to water for food, is to use smaller numbers of yields. In Civ4, each person eats 2 food and without bonuses yields range from 0 to 3 food, in the early stages. I was wondering if we could set everyone to eat 1 water, and set the yeild ranges from -1 to 2 with improvements. Maybe put some nice resources or high production on the -1 yield.

Deliverator
Jul 03, 2009, 04:12 PM
Well, I'm having some fun playing with the concept. :)

I completely removed water from all base terrain - so the desert planet is now really a desert. Feels right. Then I added in three grades of spring, producing +5, +7, +9 water respectively, and increased the prevalence until most city sites contained 3 or so springs. You can see that it still needs further tuning ... two of the richest springs in my starting square = insane growth. I'm going to play some more, when I get a nice balance I'll post the XML and graphics. (Yes, I'm going to fix the bitten bread icon)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219903&stc=1&d=1246655005

On the plant life, I think all of: Sword Grass, Burro Weed, Barrel Cactus, Creosote and Sand Verbena would be plants that dew could be collected from. I'm thinking these plants can probably a very small amount of water unimproved and then a greater amount with the Dew Collectors improvement. I awould like to replace Inkvine which is native to Geidi Prime with Spiked Paintbush which is plant I noticed yesterday in the novel.

As of now I think the water sources will not provide any health/happiness so these can come from the plants and minerals. I'd still like spice to provide a happiness benefit too.

cephalo
Jul 03, 2009, 04:45 PM
Well, I'm having some fun playing with the concept. :)

I completely removed water from all base terrain - so the desert planet is now really a desert. Feels right. Then I added in three grades of spring, producing +5, +7, +9 water respectively, and increased the prevalence until most city sites contained 3 or so springs. You can see that it still needs further tuning ... two of the richest springs in my starting square = insane growth. I'm going to play some more, when I get a nice balance I'll post the XML and graphics. (Yes, I'm going to fix the bitten bread icon)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219903&stc=1&d=1246655005

On the plant life, I think all of: Sword Grass, Burro Weed, Barrel Cactus, Creosote and Sand Verbena would be plants that dew could be collected from. I'm thinking these plants can probably a very small amount of water unimproved and then a greater amount with the Dew Collectors improvement. I awould like to replace Inkvine which is native to Geidi Prime with Spiked Paintbush which is plant I noticed yesterday in the novel.

As of now I think the water sources will not provide any health/happiness so these can come from the plants and minerals. I'd still like spice to provide a happiness benefit too.

I like the direction you're going with this, but I'm thinking that the main source of water ought to come from improvements like windtraps etc. I dunno if there are springs on dune, but that nuclear blue glowing slime stuff's gotta go. :lol:

Ugh, and somebody get rid of those dam mushrooms already!:crazyeye:

Deliverator
Jul 03, 2009, 05:00 PM
Well, I'm thinking of making the richest water source the Aquifer bonus which doesn't produce any water to begin with, but will produce plenty with the Well/Deep Well improvement. But there does have to be some water available from the beginning to get you started while you build a Worker to build Wells/Windtraps/Dew Collectors.

Ignore the art for now. It's a placeholder. :)

davidlallen
Jul 03, 2009, 05:21 PM
Ugh, and somebody get rid of those dam mushrooms already!:crazyeye:

Simply getting rid of the mushrooms is obviously trivial in the xml. But the chop bonus seems pretty important. In the dead dev thread, we thought about using "rocks with lichen" instead. There is a marker stone resource available at the download database I swapped in previously but I didn't like the result much.

Do you have any suggestions?

koma13
Jul 03, 2009, 05:25 PM
Looks great! :goodjob:

But what is about city sieges? You can cripple whole food (water) production with 2-3 units now. We have to make sure AI knows that too.

Deliverator
Jul 03, 2009, 05:32 PM
Defending your water sources will be really important, but that makes things interesting strategically.

Doesn't the AI know to defend things like Iron in vanilla? There is a tag called iAIObjective in the Bonus Infos which sounds interesting. It's not mentioned here (http://civ4.wikidot.com/xml:civ4bonusinfos) which has been enormously helpful on all the other tags.

koma13
Jul 03, 2009, 05:45 PM
You are right, this could be really interesting. Having water located only on a few tiles will also give us more possibilites to increase shield production.

davidlallen
Jul 03, 2009, 06:03 PM
iAIObjective is definitely useful. I used it in Fury Road on all the ruined buildings, and the AI definitely shows an interest in them. There are also some iAIWeights you can set in bonusinfos.xml.

Ahriman
Jul 03, 2009, 07:24 PM
It doesn't really make sense for the landscape of Dune to be providing food from every tile either. It was one of the first things that irked me about the mod.

Well, its possible to set up drip-irrigation farming almost anywhere, but not to get water from almost anywhere.

Your system looks interseting, but I think it will really mess with city growth rates and AI behavior.

In normal civ, you had to work a moderate number of tiles in order to get food excess food to support citizens working on other tiles or become city specialists.
You could have a cottage grassland that would feed itself and grow, or a hills mine that would need another food tile in order to support it.

Here, all your food comes from only like 3 tiles.
So all the food income a city could ever have will come from its first 3 population.

Small cities will grow incredibly fast, but large cities will grow even slower than normal, and the population cap for a city will be determined solely by the distribution of bonus resources, and very little on improvements you build.

City placement (to get as much food in as possible) will be incredibly important. The AI is really bad at city placement as it is, but its also used to the fact that it can build farms to get a reasonable size city almost anywheere.

If the AI can't recognize that a) it won't be able to get more food by building farms on normal land and b) it *will* be able to get extra food by windtrapping hills, then it is likely to choose city spots very badly, and potentially expand even more slowly than now.

I'm not saying it can't work, but it leads to radically different behavior and outcomes, and potentially really dumb AI.

cephalo
Jul 03, 2009, 07:29 PM
Simply getting rid of the mushrooms is obviously trivial in the xml. But the chop bonus seems pretty important. In the dead dev thread, we thought about using "rocks with lichen" instead. There is a marker stone resource available at the download database I swapped in previously but I didn't like the result much.

Do you have any suggestions?

I think that chopping is something talked about by people who enjoy maximizing their Civ4 efficiency to win on Diety or whatever. They do it because the rules allow it, not because there is some need for that in a game like Civ.

I'm no expert Civ player, heck I never play above Noble, but the only time I ever chop is if I want to build something in that forest tile. I'm probably wasting production by not paying attention to my build queue, but I'm quite sure I enjoy Civ every bit as much as the best of them.

I say get rid of the whole chopping thing, and let the maximizers do what they do in other ways.

davidlallen
Jul 03, 2009, 07:55 PM
I also play on Noble. In vanilla, I tend to save chop for when I have a sudden emergency or need a wonder, then I send a few workers to go chop around that city. But the tradeoff is losing some health. So I think it adds a little.

If we delete the mushrooms off the map altogether, will the map be too boring?

Ahriman
Jul 04, 2009, 08:24 AM
I usually play on Emperor, but I agree with cephalo's analysis.

The forest chop mechanic isn't really necessary, and feels out of place in the Dune world.

I also don't think a barren wasteland is necessarily out of place in this mod.

However! Removing the tubers does require some kind of hammer production terrain improvement that can be moved early in the tech tree. Mines in hills alone won't cut it, since half your hills will have windtraps instead.

davidlallen
Jul 04, 2009, 10:23 AM
How about making "surface" mine buildable *anywhere*, but the more advanced ones deep and core mine can only be built on hills. Is that enough of a tradeoff for removing chop?

Looking at a few autoplayed games, the AI seems to heavily favor solar farms with both of the civics that gives +1 hammer on it, resulting in a bunch of solar farms generating 4 hammers each. It's hard to beat that. I haven't worried about that yet, maybe it is too strong.

Deliverator
Jul 04, 2009, 10:43 AM
Well, here's a little test patch over 1.2.2. Not everything I wanted to implement is here yet, but this is what I have done:

+ All terrain produces no water (food) unless it has hills in which case it produces +1 water unimproved. I am just testing this hills change - I'm not sure whether we need it or not yet. An alternate idea to give a little extra push at the beginning to make the city square produce 3 rather than 2 water.

+ Bonus placement seemed to be pretty chaotic with no particular logic to it, so I've started from scratch effectively. I've removed all the random factors for now, and just made all bonus placement amounts be related to the number of squares on the map. Once we get the proportions right, we can introduce a bit of randomness for interest.

Placement order goes like this as of now:
1. Aquifer bonus. This bonus is a replacement for the Water resource and will be where you build Well improvements. At the moment this produces +4 water unimproved, but I'd like to get this down potentially to +2. even zero so it is more realistic. I'm thinking the Well improvement can add +4 to the square perhaps, Deep Well +8. I hoping davidallen can do the Improvements as I don't have experience of adding these. The Aquifer bonus is really common. I would like both Wells and Windtraps to be sources of Fresh Water. I've kept the bright blue water for now as it is helpful while tuning to have it super-obvious.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219970&stc=1&d=1246721619
2. Dew Plants. These are Sword Grass, Burro Weed, Spiked Paintbush, Sand Verbena, Barrel Cactus, Creosote. I have used the grouping stuff in BonusInfos to mean there is a high likelihood these will occur in clumps of two or three. I have produced a nice icon for each of these because I was getting confused. The 3D graphics are unchanged. At the moment, you can build Drip Farms on these to get the water output. Should we have a separate Dew Collector improvement, or just rename Drip Farm to Dew Collectors or what?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219973&d=1246720120
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219972&stc=1&d=1246721780
3. Then everything else, we need to review placement for hammer and commerce producers too once we have balanced this.

+ The existing Windtrap mechanic is unchanged. I like it and think it works well. I'd just like to have the Wells as a second source of Fresh Water.
+ Added the new Windtrap model from Lord Tirian.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219974&stc=1&d=1246720124
+ Improved the Spice eye icon.

@david: Would you be able to add the Well improvements and do some of that lovely autoplay testing? I fully expect to have to rework the BonusInfos numbers several times to get the right distribution of resources.

This is still highly experimental, but I think if we balance the numbers it could be pretty cool. I've checked and the AI seems to grow pretty well - some had a second city down by turn 50 (which doesn't seem that quick admittedly - I think the worm fear theory might be responsible). I'm sure people can pick faults, but let's at least give the idea a fair go. Everything is open to revision and refinement.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219971&stc=1&d=1246721780

davidlallen
Jul 04, 2009, 11:09 AM
Oh boy, too many things to do at once. Today I only have a half day due to RL. I was planning to rework the storm as a map effect, which is a pretty huge rewrite. Then I have to figure out how to treat wormsign as a map effect, out of which a real attacking worm will pop, without scaring the settlers.

What is it about adding improvements which seems confusing? The related files are terrain/improvementinfos and units/buildinfos. If you look in the vanilla files so the names are less confusing, you can see the farm improvement and the build farm action. Each improvement lists the bonuses it can be built upon. Each build order lists the time required.

If I can help you figure it out, please let me know, but I don't think I can help on that part of the project today.

EDIT: I have given several times the instructions for turning off worms and storms, it is a one or two character change in the python. You may wish to do this locally as a short term aid to testing the AI expansion rate.

Ahriman
Jul 04, 2009, 11:18 AM
How about making "surface" mine buildable *anywhere*, but the more advanced ones deep and core mine can only be built on hills. Is that enough of a tradeoff for removing chop?

Sounds feasible. Though; really, what is it about a hill that makes it better for mining? I know we're so used to that cos its been that way since civ1, but the purpose of that was to give hills *some* kind of resource yield, since flat land is better for farming. But now that food comes from hills thanks to windtraps, you don't need hills to be the things that produce production.

I don't mind civics giving big bonuses, because of course part of the opportunity cost of choosing that civic is that you can't get the benefits of other ones.

I would like both Wells and Windtraps to be sources of Fresh Water

What is the purpose of fresh water access in this design? It seems like it does nothing.

I think +1 water on hills is a good idea, if only because it will help the AI prioritize hills as valuable tiles when choosing city spots.
Maybe reduce down the bonus from windtraps by 1 though.

I'd also argue against the +1 water from the city tile. Since all the water is heavily designed to come from only a handful of tiles, initial city growth will be very very fast, as long as you have a worker around to build the appropriate improvement.

I still worry that this design will leave large amounts of the map useless, and lead to bad city placement choice by the AI.
It also means that that the limits to growth of a city are pretty much hard-coded; the food capacity of a city is determined solely by hills and bonus resources. There is none of the strategic decisionmaking in vanilla of trading off food/commerce by choosing whether to build a farm or cottage on a normal tile. In vanilla, you can choose to make a city a commerce haven by building lots of cottages, or run a specialist economy (or just grow very fast) by building lots of farms. There's no scope for that in this design.
Detracts from fun I think, but taking a lot of control out of player hands. Improvement choices are relatively uninteresting; you build as many windtraps as possible, wells and dew collectors on the bonus resources, and then as many cottages/turbines as possible.

Maybe have some city buildings that give a +food bonus, or a +food% bonus? That way, by building city infrastructure you can still somewhat expand the upper limit to your city size, and make it somewhat endogenous.

Deliverator
Jul 04, 2009, 11:25 AM
@david: Well, there is some buzz around this mod it seems. Better to be busy than not... :) I wasn't sure how to specify which technology makes the Well/Deep Well available mostly. I may actually try 3 levels of well. Also not sure how your Windtrap/Fresh Water thing works. I suppose I also thought it might be better for you to integrate seeing as you've done a lot of the improvements work, and are on top of the current growth/economics issues.

@Ahriman:

What is the purpose of fresh water access in this design? It seems like it does nothing.

I was thinking it will be possible to irrigate only those tiles with Fresh Water access. So use Fresh Water to control where improvements can be built. You may be right though - may be it is redundant.

I still worry that this design will leave large amounts of the map useless, and lead to bad city placement choice by the AI.

Part of tuning the Bonuses is making sure that there are few useless areas of the map. The AI we can watch and test. There are various AI weights we can play with.

It also means that that the limits to growth of a city are pretty much hard-coded; the food capacity of a city is determined solely by hills and bonus resources.

Maybe, but you have limits on city growth even with food producing tiles... There has to be some limit.

There is none of the strategic decisionmaking in vanilla of trading off food/commerce by choosing whether to build a farm or cottage on a normal tile. In vanilla, you can choose to make a city a commerce haven by building lots of cottages, or run a specialist economy (or just grow very fast) by building lots of farms. There's no scope for that in this design. Detracts from fun I think, but taking a lot of control out of player hands. Improvement choices are relatively uninteresting; you build as many windtraps as possible, wells and dew collectors on the bonus resources, and then as many cottages/turbines as possible

Having played with this, I really think this is something that will attract people to the mod, but as Kael's article points out you then need the gameplay to keep them. This is not a finished design - It is a starting point which I hope will evolve with playtesting and ideas from people. Fully agree that we want interesting strategic choices, but I think we can work that in. Start simple and then add layers of interest.

Maybe have some city buildings that give a +food bonus, or a +food% bonus? That way, by building city infrastructure you can still somewhat expand the upper limit to your city size, and make it somewhat endogenous.

Certainly water infrastructure buildings are part of the idea.

davidlallen
Jul 04, 2009, 11:38 AM
Among the different big problems with the mod right now, storms/worms scaring settlers is the worst one. Among the people available to work, I think I am the only python expert; so I would like to work on the storms/worms right now.

The windtrap improvement and city windtrap use python to add an invisible feature. You can see this feature in terrain/featureinfos, FEATURE_WINDTRAP. All it does is add fresh water. The actual food/commerce bonus is associated with the improvement, terrain/improvementinfos, IMPROVEMENT_WINDTRAP. I don't know how to change the "radius" of the fresh water, but maybe we don't need to do that.

The key measurement that I make for economy is based on running a huge, noble difficulty, autoplay for 250 turns and then looking at the total commerce of each civ. There is a python function which writes a spreadsheet, but you can just as easily use ctrl-Z and then the economics advisor to see how all the civs did. What I look at is the total commerce displayed on the left. In a vanilla archipelago game, the total commerce of most civs is around 250-350. Today using 1.2.2, settlers are scared off by worms and each spice gives +3 commerce; typical total commerce values are around 100-150. With worms and storms turned off, typical total commerce values are around 200-250.

You can also visually count the number of cities; with worms and storms turned off, the average is around 4-5 cities with an average pop of 10 each. With worms and storms on, the average is around 2-3 cities.

We haven't tracked down the CTD yet, but it usually occurs around turn 300. I have noticed that when I get the total commerce up into the 250-350 range, sometimes the crash moves earlier. I guess this makes sense since whatever tech/unit/etc is causing the crash, can now be built earlier. So if you pump up the economy and start seeing this crash, you cannot get the actual commerce data, but you can assume it is high enough. :-)

EDIT: also you asked how the techs are associated with improvements. This is the PrereqTech field on the build action. I suppose that is a little confusing. So units/buildinfo BUILD_FARM says that the prerequisite tech for farms is agriculture.

Deliverator
Jul 04, 2009, 12:01 PM
How do you set the game up to autoplay? I've never done it...

davidlallen
Jul 04, 2009, 12:10 PM
See dune wars\docs\README\AIAutoPlay Readme.txt for one way.

What I do is based on using the built-in python shell. Press the ~ character (you may have to search on international keyboards). This gives you a python prompt. Type:

CyGame().setAIAutoPlay(250)

I usually alt-tab to minimize the game, and alt-tab back to it every once in a while. Depending on how fast your machine is, you may or may not be able to surf the web, etc while it is running.

koma13
Jul 04, 2009, 12:20 PM
Among the people available to work, I think I am the only python expert

Not true. :) My python skills vastly surpass my knowledge in sdk and xml.

How do you set the game up to autoplay? I've never done it...

Press Ctrl+Shift+X...

davidlallen
Jul 04, 2009, 12:23 PM
Not true. :) My python skills vastly surpass my knowledge in sdk and xml.

Excellent. Have you been able to do much tuning on the early game combat unit selection? Your ideas on that from two weeks ago seem very promising.

Deliverator
Jul 04, 2009, 12:27 PM
Cheers guys. I'm using the Press Ctrl+Shift+X way. Amazingly it only using 50% of my trusty old machine's CPU.

Well, I could learn Python/SDK if I wanted to, but I code for a living so for me doing art is more recreational... it's more a preference thing I guess.

koma13
Jul 04, 2009, 12:38 PM
Excellent. Have you been able to do much tuning on the early game combat unit selection? Your ideas on that from two weeks ago seem very promising.

Yes, I know it's long time overdue. Right now I'm a little stucked with the hover spam. The problem is imho that hovers are the only sea units in early game... on a Archipelago map script... with coastal cities only.
I made an experiment where I changed thopters to a 2nd domain sea unit and ai start spamming thopters... I'm eagerly waiting for cephalo's new map script to see if that is leading to an improvement. Else I would have to look into sdk to reduce that or work with AI_Weight but I would prefer a solution without these arrangements.

I also have the problem that the transition between my new early units and dw's midgame units is still very rough. I want to smooth that out a little bit.

Deliverator
Jul 04, 2009, 12:43 PM
(Shouldn't this discussion be in the unit progression thread ;))

Edit: Also, with these AI Autoplays does setting the difficulty to Noble handicap the AI at all? Why not set it to Deity and let them at each other?

davidlallen
Jul 04, 2009, 12:52 PM
with these AI Autoplays does setting the difficulty to Noble handicap the AI at all? Why not set it to Deity and let them at each other?

I have used noble as a basis for comparison. I am sure that the commerce numbers would vary if the difficulty level varied. So by doing all my runs at noble, I can see how things are progressing over time.

Deliverator
Jul 04, 2009, 05:30 PM
Here were the results from my first autoplay with the water test patch posted above. Noble, Huge map, 250 turns. The screenshot shows the 7 city guy.

Num Cities / Biggest City / Total Commerce / Worked Tiles
5 16 247 79
3 8 110 29
3 12 148 38
7 17 201 56
2 15 112 15
5 11 190 60
4 14 175 37
4 13 186 40
6 15 224 36 * Score Leader
4 18 174 45
2 15 121 20

(Apologies - didn't know how to do a decent looking table.)

Not sure if these numbers are good, average or poor... :dunno:

I'm going to do the following:
+ Reduce Aquifer to +2 unimproved.
+ Add the Well and Deep Well improvements.
+ Reduce Wind Trap to +2 water bonus.

And then see how that affects things...

Ahriman
Jul 04, 2009, 06:08 PM
I'd say poor for turn 250. The variation is also somewhat disturbing, particularly given how far apart all those civs are; it suggests that good/bad start local terrain have a huge impact on outcomes.

The clumped water resources also really don't look great; the food ones are fine, but the adjacent aquifers less so.

The screenshot also suggests another problem; the AI's tendency to build cities close to each other with lots of overlapping fat cross is a big problem when all the food comes from only a few tiles.

The resolution on the screenshots also isn't quite enough; are the cities building windtraps and cottages ok?
Is this with or without tuber forests; it looks like without, which is a problem hammerwise unless you also have something like the proposal for mines buildable anywhere; it means very low hammer output in the early game.

Deliverator
Jul 05, 2009, 02:55 AM
Well, bear in mind this was run with the sandstorms and worms still in play. Tubers are unchanged also. It may be necessary to get a better balance between food, hammer and commerces bonuses. I'll run some normal 1.2.2 games for comparison.

According to david's post above:
Today using 1.2.2, settlers are scared off by worms and each spice gives +3 commerce; typical total commerce values are around 100-150.

In which case these numbers don't seem too bad. If I can find where david describes how to disable storms and worms then I can run that test also.

On resource clumping, there is an iUnique value which will ensure that there is an empty ring of tiles around each instance of this resource. It is simple enough to set it to 1 for Aquifer - the only issue is that it very quickly reduces the number of available tiles for placement. Each Aquifer placed would take up 9 available squares. There is also a hardcoded game rule that no bonus can be adjacent to a bonus of another type. Is it just the graphics that bother you about the clumped water resources or you just don't like them being clumped?

Edit: For comparison here's the same numbers from a normal 1.2.2 game with worms and storms switched on.


Commerce / Worked Tiles / Num Cities / Biggest City
204 44 6 17
217 63 5 15
247 123 7 13
181 54 4 15
226 76 6 14
211 66 5 17
199 58 4 14
139 23 3 12
233 45 7 10
149 31 3 14
115 28 1 15

Deliverator
Jul 05, 2009, 07:50 AM
Normal 1.2.2 vs Water Test 1
Average Commerce: 192.82 vs 171.64
Average Worked Tiles: 55.55 vs 41.36
Average Number of Cities: 4.64 vs 4.09

So I definitely need to boost things for the next test. Still at least I'm not too far off. Perhaps using the AIObjective and AIWeights a bit will help.

davidlallen
Jul 05, 2009, 08:47 AM
These results look very promising. I find it helpful to do one run with the same settings on a vanilla archipelago map and get the same statistics. This gives a "baseline" for any comparison.

If I can find where david describes how to disable storms and worms then I can run that test also.
I should sticky this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8232363&postcount=10) with the instructions.

I have gotten the storm as map-effect working. Naturally, on the *first* turn of the *first* game I tested it on, I put a scout on autoexplore and what did he do? Walk right into a storm and die. Having *some* fear of storms and worms is good. I will ignore this for now; it is more important to get settlers sent off. Losing one or two workers and scouts due to storms they could have avoided is a much smaller problem we can worry about in the future.

I will try to get worms as map-effects working, and put up a patch. I have a bunch of other changes in this patch. We will have a temporary merge problem with your changes, but that is solvable one time.

Ahriman
Jul 05, 2009, 08:55 AM
Is it just the graphics that bother you about the clumped water resources or you just don't like them being clumped?

Mostly the graphic, but it also feels a little weird geology-wise (an aquifer on one tile is really drawing water from a large surrounding area) and also potentially balance-wise; if you can have clusters of water, then those can really become a super-city, while areas without aquifers are useless.
Also, the map looks a bit strange with bright blue aquifers all over the map.

The bigger issue is the variance in tile yields for cities across the map, the weaker the AI tends to be and the bigger the variation in AI performance.
In vanilla, cities with bonus food tiles are good spots for cities and will get settled first, but even locations without any bonus resources can still end up being very respectable cities (especially if they're on rivers).

What do you think about having some buildings that provide +food (ie water), so that the city size and growth of a particular town is not directly hardcapped by the map generation script (since there is no human choice about making the city bigger by building more farms)?

Deliverator
Jul 05, 2009, 09:40 AM
@david: Can you remember what numbers you used with the iAIObjective tag for bonuses - there doesn't seem to be much information around...

davidlallen
Jul 05, 2009, 10:05 AM
I am pretty sure it is a boolean, at least that is how I used it. This link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7217152#post7217152) for some discussion.

Deliverator
Jul 05, 2009, 07:57 PM
So if you pump up the economy and start seeing this crash, you cannot get the actual commerce data, but you can assume it is high enough.

Just had this exact thing happen with my Water for Food v2 release candidate. Some things may need toning down a bit and I'm sure it needs further refinement, but I can let you have it all later today hopefully.

cephalo
Jul 05, 2009, 08:21 PM
I just wanna ask, do we know anything about aquifers on Dune? Whatever we do, it has to be in the books right?

davidlallen
Jul 05, 2009, 08:30 PM
I just wanna ask, do we know anything about aquifers on Dune? Whatever we do, it has to be in the books right?

Not at all. This is a game inspired by the books. Playable and fun is more important than authenticity. Just don't get us started about that Weirding Module from the 1984 movie :-)

Just had this exact thing happen with my Water for Food v2 release candidate. Some things may need toning down a bit and I'm sure it needs further refinement, but I can let you have it all later today hopefully.

Well, the quick solution to that crash is remove the Medium Hover unit and its associated unitclass and reference in civilizationinfos, in case it is getting in your way.

Deliverator
Jul 06, 2009, 03:54 AM
I just wanna ask, do we know anything about aquifers on Dune? Whatever we do, it has to be in the books right?

Well, there's water under the ground for sure, and talk about qanats which are sort of sophisticated well systems. I think it's fair to input of what we know about Earth's deserts. Playing with my changes it feels much more like an alien, desert planet than before...

keldath
Jul 06, 2009, 10:34 AM
hey guys,

ill bring up an idea i had when i started the mod,

i was looking also to make some sort of a water source,

ther is the rivers - currentkly disabled - but imagine this,
instead of rivers on the map,
youll have - water resourviours - or something like this - that wont be placed like a river, and wont be as long - it will be as a round art thingy.

if you gonna use the water resource somehow -
why not turn it nto a featur? instead of the forest/mushrooms?

Ahriman
Jul 06, 2009, 10:49 AM
I think reservoirs should be created by play (probably as city improvements; makes sense as a granary substitute) rather than a map feature; I think reservoir has connotations of an anthropogenic source (unlike aquifer, which is basically a natural underground reservoir), it doesn't make much sense for them to exist naturally.

That boardgame though reminded me of the polar sink though, which I think *does* have real water sources. Is there any way to increase the water resources in polar regions, or create some new terrain type that naturally provides water but only gets created by the map script in polar regions? Basically something like tundra/ice that has a natural +1 water +1 hammer tile yield. Would be cool to encourage settlement in clusters around the poles.

Another point; if you remove water from all non-bonus terrain, then you the grassland replacement provides nothing while the plains replacement provides 1 hammer; why not change the grassland into +1 commerce, to distinguish it from deserts?

Deliverator
Jul 06, 2009, 11:03 AM
One of the original motivations of this Water for Food idea was so that cephalo can model the water rich terrain in the polar region.

Another point; if you remove water from all non-bonus terrain, then you the grassland replacement provides nothing while the plains replacement provides 1 hammer; why not change the grassland into +1 commerce, to distinguish it from deserts?

Good idea. I'll do this.

cephalo
Jul 06, 2009, 12:07 PM
That boardgame though reminded me of the polar sink though, which I think *does* have real water sources. Is there any way to increase the water resources in polar regions, or create some new terrain type that naturally provides water but only gets created by the map script in polar regions? Basically something like tundra/ice that has a natural +1 water +1 hammer tile yield. Would be cool to encourage settlement in clusters around the poles.


I'm working on it! I want to make it look really nice though so I'm playing with some SDK modifications.

keldath
Jul 06, 2009, 12:25 PM
interesting cephalo,

keep up the good work guys.

Deliverator
Jul 06, 2009, 02:32 PM
Water for Food - version 2

Changes from the previous Water for Food test:

+ Renamed Aquifer to Groundwater. This is just to make the grammar make sense, Groundwater works as both the location of the resource and the substance that the resource produces.

+ Groundwater produces no tile yield change unimproved.

+ There are three new improvements that can only be built on Groundwater:
Shallow Well - buildable immediately - +5 water +1 commerce.
Deep Well - available at Climate Control - +8 water +2 commerce
Qanat Network - available at Desert Industry - +11 water +3 commerce
(Names and Techs open to change)

+ The different Well graphics are placeholder - using some Drauga buildings from Walter Hawkwood's Fantasy Pack.

+ Groundwater uses iUnique so that it does not occur on two adjacent tiles - in reality a well would drain water from a large surrounding area of aquifer.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=220238&stc=1&d=1246908370
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=220237&stc=1&d=1246908370

+ Dew Plants - Sand Verbana, Burro Weed, Spiked Paintbush, Sword Grass, Creosote, Barrel Cactus all produce +1 water from dew unimproved.

+ Replaced Enclosure with Dew Collectors improvement, adds +2 water +1 commerce to the Dew Plants. The Dew Plants all produce +1 happy +1 health right now but we can vary this for interest.

+ Wind Trap reduced to +2 water from +3.

+ Made base tile produce +3 water. With it producing +2 water there is no way to get more than +3 water from your initial settlement. This meant the first few turns were a bit slow - if people don't like then we can get rid of it.

+ Arid produces only +1 hammer. Desert Plains produces +1 hammer +1 commerce. This was a late change just to make them different.

+ Bonus placement totally reworked. This will need further tuning no doubt, but the game feels like it is in a playable state now. I think we should probably replace Fogwood and Shigawire which are not native to Arrakis. Also having Burro Bush as well as Burro Weed seems confusing.

+ iAIObjective set to 1 for Groundwater. Definitely seems to make a difference - the AI seems more willing to cross the sand sea and settle islands with this switched on. With the worm fear fix in place it will be really interesting to see what happens.

+ I have tested and if anything I think I may have overcompensated for the previous commerce shortfall. Still it's a nice problem to have if so - we can pick which settings to scale back. The AI does build Deep Wells to replace the Shallow Wells when the relevant tech becomes available.

Probably I've missed some things, but I'm sure someone will notice and feedback. This will need ongoing refinement but hopefully people will like it. :)

If you think there are issues with resource distribution then try to pick out general patterns over a number of games/maps. The random nature of it will still dish out the odd awesome start and crappy start. That has always been Civ though. Even in my straight 1.2.2 test, one civ has 1 city after 250 turns...

Loose Ends

While I hope this change is now good enough to merge back into the main mod there are a couple of loose ends.
+ It would be good if both windtraps and wells can be fresh water sources in a 1 tile radius. Drip farms can then be built on any terrain that has fresh water. This makes it possible to get some water from waterless tiles.
+ I've not renamed all the Food Silo, Food Warehouse buildings to Catchbasin, Reservoir, etc. We should do this.

Future Stuff and Ideas

+ Add some water related city buildings e.g.
- Ornamental Gardens - negative water, positive happiness
- Teachings of Liet (wonder? Sietch Tabr UB?) - some positive water impact
- Power stations/factories cost water

+ Koma said he would do some water related city screen work ;)

+ Maybe link water into the terraforming ideas - I had an idea that when you pass the Three Percent Threshold you start getting Sirocco winds that move around like sandstorms. When these pass over your windtraps you get extra water. Also could you divert some of your water income into a terraforming fund somehow - then collecting water takes you closer to a Terraforming victory.

keldath
Jul 06, 2009, 02:38 PM
ahh great work d!

im working out a new patch with the recent stuff from you and koma on top of patch 1.2.3 by david.

looks great!!!

davidlallen
Jul 06, 2009, 02:52 PM
I need some advice on how many different versions / patches we should have. I have just spent the last two hours undoing the map effect I added. I now have something working which uses koma's "ignore danger" patch but still keeps all the other 1.2.3 changes. I should test that to make sure it is actually working.

In parallel, we have keldath's PM to me that he is working on a new sdk with a couple of unrelated bug fixes, and also we have the water as food stuff.

I can take a few hours to try merging the water as food stuff into my changes and release *that* as 1.2.4. What do you think? It is piling a bunch of big changes together, but maybe it is better to merge immediately.

Keldath, will you have a new dll in a few hours which includes koma's "ignore danger" plus your own stuff? I can drop that into 1.2.4.

Deliverator
Jul 06, 2009, 02:55 PM
I reckon keep copies of all the separate code and then go for the merge. There will inevitably be some teething issues, but the sooner we do it, the sooner we can start refining.

keldath
Jul 06, 2009, 03:05 PM
yes ive been meaning to send you david a pm,

hold on on the merging of yours -

i have built a patch with:

deliverator new atwer code
koma13's new code
my fix+unit addition

ill post in 30 minutes.

deliverator,
id appreciate if you can check out the patch when i upload it - cause you worked on a version previous to patch 1.23 -
so in the bonusinfo - i didnt know which terrain boolians you changed - so i based them on those in patch 1.2.3. and left all the bonus tweaks you made.
in fact it wouldnt heart if you go through the files youve changed compared to my merge.


thanks - great work - i really like this new water system.


im just running a quick ai game to make sure everything is working.
so dar so good,

gimmie 30 minutes

p.s
deliverator - wont removing the rice will cause some python errors?

davidlallen
Jul 06, 2009, 03:05 PM
There are only 8 contradicting files between 1.2.3 and water patch 2. Let me have a go at merging them for two hours. It should be doable. The sooner we get to a single code base, the sooner the pain will be over.

Once the code stabilizes a little, then we can rename everything. Renaming RICE to AQUIFER is one step in the right direction, but it will require a short program which I can write, to mass-rename everything.

keldath
Jul 06, 2009, 03:17 PM
wait for my patch david,
then check out the merged ive done, the patch is stable - uploading now.


pehaps we need a thread for beta versions - so every new work we do we upload there so there will be an order in our multiple uploads :).



yes - renaming is something i wanted for a long time - but its tons of work...


ok - heres the patch this is build on the new patch 1.2.3 availble on the download thread :

http://ul.to/nzp3tq

it includes:

1. koma13 new changes of added sdk code
2. deliverator water system
3. fix from revdcm 2.5 - sdk
4. added unit: battle mech -
a super world unit - that costs money aswell as hammers (using a dorment sdk code i built on revdcm 2.5)
ill add a upkeep value later - i forgot...
5. reduced peak height


***
edit:
damn - i wanted to include a new art set for the to cottage-town... but i forgot...
also i wann replace the green house art - its ugly...:)

have fun,
im going to shower now :)

cephalo
Jul 06, 2009, 03:31 PM
Loose Ends

While I hope this change is now good enough to merge back into the main mod there are a couple of loose ends.
+ It would be good if both windtraps and wells can be fresh water sources in a 1 tile radius. Drip farms can then be built on any terrain that has fresh water. This makes it possible to get some water from waterless tiles.


How important is the 'fresh water' mechanic to this mod?

Lib.Spi't
Jul 06, 2009, 03:56 PM
hi guys sorry if people have already answered or given similar posts I haven't read all the way through but i thought i would give some ideas. feel free to ignore.

sandtrout: sand trouts roll in the ecology of dune is to trap and remove water to protect the worms, sand trouts are earliest stage worms. they can be caught and 'drunk' in emergencies, this is also a fremen childs game. In game terms sand trout could be a bonus that provides small water, very small, but a big bonus could be gained with an improvement such as 'predatory fish pond' (feel free to think of a better name) but fremen seeded predator fish in their water stores to keep the sand trout from massing and removing the water.

Water: In the poles smugglers and others setup ice collecting sites this is then taken to the main city and sold by water merchants. Water was often imported at huge cost from other worlds, and when Paul became emperor he began forcing other worlds to pay water tributes. You could maybe make Smuggler camp/dens as terrain improvements or bonuses with the attached improvement being a smuggler contract. Providing water/food possibly even production as the smugglers import equipment. Even the Fremen dealt with smugglers usually as a connection to supply the Spacing Guild and CHOAM with off the books spice in exchange for secrecy as to their numbers and networks, obtained by the survey satellites in orbit.

Food: the fremen eat massive amounts of spice 'spice cakes' 'spice tea' etc. in fact spice is even used to make rugs and things, they also talk about rock gardens and plantations buried in rocky crevices and inside certain types of rock formations and caves, places where the sand can't get into and destroy. where they cultivate flowers fruits and vegetables. I do think for the other peoples that a huge amount of stuff is imported the only reason anyone, other than fremen, live on dune is because of the necessity of spice and its vast financial rewards even after the costs of water and food imports.

Ahriman
Jul 06, 2009, 04:00 PM
How important is the 'fresh water' mechanic to this mod?

I think its some important.
Though you could remove the ability of drip farms to spread water.

I think its more important to be able to get some water from improvements (+1 water) even without a bonus resource.

I also strongly recommend having 1-2 city buildings that are able to provide some water bonus themselves; eg city windtrap gives +2 water income.

Otherwise, looks fun, eager to playtest.

Deliverator
Jul 06, 2009, 04:02 PM
deliverator - wont removing the rice will cause some python errors?

I manually changed all usages to BONUS_AQUIFER.

so in the bonusinfo - i didnt know which terrain boolians you changed - so i based them on those in patch 1.2.3. and left all the bonus tweaks you made.

You definitely need to take all my Civ4BonusInfos.xml changes in. Everything is rebalanced from scratch and it is as important as the mapscript really in setting the landscape for the game. I've changed every bonus apart from spice I think.

Writing a program to allow us to rename all instances of tag would be handy. Then we can clean up the XML.

The fresh water usage I am not too bothered about - it's just a thought I had about allowing you to irrigate +1 water a ring of tiles around a well/windtrap. As Ahriman says we can remove the ability of drip farms to spread water.

davidlallen
Jul 06, 2009, 04:18 PM
Somehow in attempting to merge deliverator's changes with mine I have completely mangled my mod directory. I was hoping to do some fun coding today like anchor grass and the three percent threshold. Instead I have to throw away my whole mod area and start over. It's my fault due to some operator error, I'm sure.

After I take some time off to let the pain subside, I will start from scratch with the 1.2 release and 1.2.4 patch. In 1.2.3 I took out the worm and storm units and made them map effects; I need to undo that now that koma has added the ignore danger flag. There will certainly be some complaints about the funny looking lightning and rain storm. But hopefully there will also be some constructive feedback on the water mod.

koma13
Jul 06, 2009, 04:19 PM
Teachings of Liet (wonder? Sietch Tabr UB?) - some positive water impact

If we really add this Arrakis terraforming victory, Teachings of Liet could be our Apollo Mission.

+ Koma said he would do some water related city screen work

Exactly. I first want to finish early unit balancing. Then it will be time for some screen magic. :)

davidlallen
Jul 06, 2009, 10:05 PM
I think I recovered my mod area, but it was pretty painful. I have put a new patch 1.2.5 onto the "patch discussion" thread. Any future discussion about merging and scheduling should go there; let's try to keep design/development/feedback on these threads, and merging/scheduling on that thread.

Deliverator, please do carefully verify the files after keldath's merging. I completely failed at merging, twice, which I did not expect. ("This has never happened to me before ..." :-)) I recommend you back up your mod area, delete it, install 1.2, install 1.2.3, install 1.2.4, and install 1.2.5. Once we get everything verified I hope keldath can issue 1.3.

Back to the point of this thread, I have tried out the water mod very briefly. Is it true that the only way to see the critical groundwater resource is with ctrl-R, with the hover icons for resources? This is different from any other mod, where the resources can be seen on the plain map. Perhaps you could take the oasis bonus and make it in several sizes so that there can be something on the map?

Also, perhaps the merging has gone wrong, or perhaps I am misunderstanding the point of your changes. But, when I work an unimproved verbena tile, it generates water. Is that right? With an improvement it would generate more water, which I guess makes sense.

Deliverator
Jul 07, 2009, 01:33 AM
Deliverator, please do carefully verify the files after keldath's merging. I completely failed at merging, twice, which I did not expect. ("This has never happened to me before ..." :-)) I recommend you back up your mod area, delete it, install 1.2, install 1.2.3, install 1.2.4, and install 1.2.5. Once we get everything verified I hope keldath can issue 1.3.

Back to the point of this thread, I have tried out the water mod very briefly. Is it true that the only way to see the critical groundwater resource is with ctrl-R, with the hover icons for resources? This is different from any other mod, where the resources can be seen on the plain map. Perhaps you could take the oasis bonus and make it in several sizes so that there can be something on the map?

I'll review the changes. I need to make sure Civ4BonusInfos.xml is exactly the same as my water patch - otherwise growth is going to be screwed up. I guess I need to apply all the patches incrementally as you say and check.

Yes, I mentioned this point here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8237389&postcount=75) in the Art thread. I will try and come up with an on map visual representation for Groundwater.

Don't worry once the water is bedded in and tuned - I'll go back and focus on Art. Less merge issues.... ;)

Also, perhaps the merging has gone wrong, or perhaps I am misunderstanding the point of your changes. But, when I work an unimproved verbena tile, it generates water. Is that right? With an improvement it would generate more water, which I guess makes sense.

At the beginning the only tiles to generate water are hills (from the slightly higher air moisture) and the dew plants (from dew that gathers most easily on surfaces raised above the desert/rock). The water output of hills is increased by windtraps and the water output of dew plants is increased by dew collectors. And then of course you can build wells to get the groundwater. That's the logic in my thinking...

davidlallen
Jul 07, 2009, 10:20 AM
At the beginning the only tiles to generate water are hills (from the slightly higher air moisture) and the dew plants (from dew that gathers most easily on surfaces raised above the desert/rock). The water output of hills is increased by windtraps and the water output of dew plants is increased by dew collectors. And then of course you can build wells to get the groundwater. That's the logic in my thinking...

OK, that makes sense. You suggested this before, but we need some kind of "user guide" so that people make the connection. I have done this with hints, which should be 1-2 short sentences each. I "hope" everybody knows that the civilopedia has a button to show all the hints. At least the hints get in everybody's face, so it is hard to overlook them. I have also copied the hints into a FAQ post in the welcome thread.

Do you want to write 4-5 hints about how the water system works? Search for "HINT" in xml/text/DuneWarsText.xml and you can see where the text goes; for each hint you also need to add an entry in xml/gameinfo/civ4hints.xml.

Deliverator
Jul 07, 2009, 10:24 AM
Yes, I can write hints. No problemo.

I also think the idea someone raised of having a Dune Concepts pedia section that goes into a bit more detail on certain subjects is not a bad one... you could have an entry on Worms and Storms, Spice, Water, etc.

davidlallen
Jul 07, 2009, 11:18 AM
I also think the idea someone raised of having a Dune Concepts pedia section that goes into a bit more detail on certain subjects is not a bad one... you could have an entry on Worms and Storms, Spice, Water, etc.

Yes, that was suggested, and my reply was that we can achieve the majority of this effect by filling in the standard civilopedia strategy entries for some key resources, improvements and units. Editing xml/text/DuneWarsText.xml is the best way to do this; second best is to just post text here and I can paste it into the file.

davidlallen
Jul 08, 2009, 01:11 PM
One additional challenge to a "reskin" like this is to update the text in the game. Fortunately most places use the icon, so that is already done. In the civilopedia, the resource display spells out the name of the yield so you see the text "+1 Food" followed by the drip icon.

Please add this to the end of xml/text/DuneWarsText.xml:

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_YIELD_FOOD</Tag>
<English>Water</English>
</TEXT>

It is a little hard to find other such text items automatically, but that one is highly visible.

Deliverator
Jul 08, 2009, 01:19 PM
I'll do this in 1.2.8 that I am just putting together.

keldath
Jul 08, 2009, 02:22 PM
hey guys,
i wjen i did autoplay yesterday - i noticed the cities grow up to 40...

i think theres too much food going around/water.

also,
theres alot of income..

Deliverator
Jul 08, 2009, 02:25 PM
Yes, clearly I overcompensated. Still we were afraid of too little growth...

There are plenty of ways to scale it back. I'll have a think what is the best way.

How many turns did you autoplay for?

Deliverator
Jul 08, 2009, 03:35 PM
It's hilarious. After 250 turns, on huge/noble, commerce totals range from 252 to 573 with most above 350. I'm going to scale back a few things and include the changes in 1.2.8. Expansion looks so much better now with the worm fear issue fixed.

Deliverator
Jul 09, 2009, 05:21 AM
The windtrap improvement and city windtrap use python to add an invisible feature. You can see this feature in terrain/featureinfos, FEATURE_WINDTRAP. All it does is add fresh water. The actual food/commerce bonus is associated with the improvement, terrain/improvementinfos, IMPROVEMENT_WINDTRAP. I don't know how to change the "radius" of the fresh water, but maybe we don't need to do that.

David, do you have the time to add the 1-tile-radius fresh water feature to the Well improvements (Shallow Well, Deep Well, Qanat System) just like the Wind Traps? We can then change Drip Farm to be built on any terrain that has Fresh Water irrespective of its current yield. This would mean that you can get +1 water from most squares on the map - whether this is totally desirable I'm not sure yet, but at least it gives you options.

davidlallen
Jul 09, 2009, 12:30 PM
Sure, soon as 1.3 goes up I will give you a locally changed DuneWars.py. I suppose an sdk mod using a new xml flag would be better, but ...