RifE 1.20 Download and Changelog [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

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Valkrionn

Jun 29, 2009, 12:34 AM

Rise from Erebus 1.23

Installation

Rise from Erebus contains all files necessary to run; No other mod is needed in any way.

To install, follow these simple steps:

Install the Rise from Erebus version and patch (if any) from the links below.
Extract the Hot Fix (if any) to your RifE folder.
Extract any Addons you wish to use to your RifE folder.

Main Download Here - Version 1.20

Mirror - WePlayCiv

Hotfix

Patches
248400

New in 1.23:

Decimal Trade is fixed

Very simple fix; Just forgot to change one function call from the standard to the Times100 version.
Decimal trade does NOT grant decimal yields for single trade routes. That would be a far larger change. It DOES allow multiple trade routes to add their decimal values together. This means that if you have 4 trade routes, at 1.25:commerce: each, you now get 5:commerce: instead of 4.
Should be very useful for cities with many trade routes, or for Malakim/Mazatl/Trader leaders.

Climate system updated, should run better and cause fewer issues.

Version 2.56 of Erebus Continent.
Contains the Hotfix
Disables most of FlavorMod's features while running ErebusContinent.
Recolored Kelp Forest.
VSPavlov's Specialist icons; Covers the Dwarves, Elves, Lizards, Infernals, D'tesh, and Humans.
VSPavlov's Civ Banners for the pedia screen
Bug fixes from Ornedan; Should hopefully fix many of the crashes, including the terraform crash.
Assorted other C++ bug fixes; Stability should be improved.
Animal Invasion game option is now called Timid Animals; Functionality reversed.

Rather than allow animals to enter culture when on (And be on by default), it BLOCKS animals from entering when on, and is off by default.
1.22.1 - Fixes the description of this option.

Range limited improvements (such as Dwarven Mines) will have build progress wiped when a different improvement is built on the plot; Prevents builds from being blocked unnecessarily.
Barbarian Minotaur and Cyklop nerfed; This is a temporary change, and will not remain once the new system is in place.
Features added for ErebusContinent; Deep Ocean will always appear (completely cosmetic), others have options controlling them.

New Reef feature: +1:hammers:, damages units on tile, increases movement cost, spawns in Coast/Ocean.

Reef/Kelp/Haunted Lands will be placed if the 'Advanced Terrain' map option is left on, which is default.

New Deep Ocean terrain: Same as Ocean, just graphical difference. Looks good, basically. :p
New Ancient Ruins improvement; City Ruins, cannot be sanctified.

Ancient Ruins will be placed if the 'Ancient Ruins' map option is on; On by default.

Installation Order - Several of our addons need new python functions. Unfortunately, python is not modular... As a result, changes made in earlier modules must be carried into later ones to maintain compatibility. When downloading, any module marked with [PY] requires all previous modules carrying that tag.

RifE Addons
None atm.
Unofficial Addons

Normal Units as Commanders[Should be Compatible, may need to update]

Allows normal units access to commander promotions, and allows Great Commanders to function like Adventurers.

Flat XP [Should be Compatible, may need to update]

Eliminates the diminishing returns formula for training/arcane XP and replaces it with a constant per turn gain of XP.

Luchuirp Fort Commander UU [Should be Compatible, may need to update]

Adds the 'Sculptor' Fort Commander for the Luchuirp, able to sculpt Golems.
Adds the 'Scorpion Clan Fort Commander' for the Clan, can hire units.
Adds the 'Gypsey Clan' Fort Commander for the Balseraph.

Mana Flares (andstuff) [COMPATIBLE]

Adds Mana Flare events, Imperial Roads, and a few other events.

Reformed Liches [Should be Compatible, may need to update]

Better dying through unholy rituals.

Populated Cottages[Should be Compatible, may need to update]

Allows the cottage line to add specialists to nearby cities with Education, while reducing their use for commerce.

Scions Healthcare[Should be Compatible, may need to update]

Gives the Scions many UB's for various Health buildings.

Fall Under [COMPATIBLE]

Modifies the Amurites heavily, but changes quite a few other things; Check the thread for more info.

Tarquelne's Modules converted for RifE [Should be Compatible, may need to update]

Converts several modules made by Tarquelne to a form compatible with RifE.

RifE Source Files

Included in the download.

Valkrionn

Jun 29, 2009, 12:36 AM

Rise from Erebus 1.20
Sadly, this is not a complete changelog; Neglected to keep track this time. :mischief:

Added the Lawful-Chaotic alignment axis

Not fully integrated into Broader Alignments as yet; No buildings/events/civics will modify the new axis

Added Jean Elcard's Climate System

Adds temperature/humidity to plots, and uses that to calculate the plot's climate. Each climate has a base TerrainClass, which has a normal terrain and a hellish variant defined.
Some civilizations/religions are able to modify this climate. If so, any tile within it's borders will slowly transition to the new climate, with Religious climate taking precedence over Civilization climate. In all cases, if control over the plot is lost it will revert to it's original climate over time.
Civs with a Climateform set:

Malakim - Desert.

Forests/Jungles will become scrub unless on a river, rivers gain floodplains.When transitioning away from desert, scrubs become new forest and floodplains are lost.

D'tesh - Wasteland.

On the climate chart, it is well past desert... Can take 80-100 turns for it to appear. When it does, however, all scrub/forests/jungle will become Haunted Lands. Well worth the wait. When transitioning away, Haunted Lands become New Forest.

Cualli/Mazatl - Wetlands.

Features become Jungle. Again, features will convert when the terrain converts back.

Illian/Frozen - Snow.

As a result of this system, Illians do not spawn Blizzards anymore. Frozen still do, but the blizzards have an extra chance to decay when outside of their borders.

Religions:

White Hand - Glacier.

New terrain type. Same art as Snow, 1 :food:, 75% build penalty. Gains Crystal Plains along rivers, new Feature type. 1:food:, 1:commerce:.
Illians/Doviello/Jotnar gain bonus yields for Glacial terrain, equal to their snow bonus.
This is another SLOW conversion. Meaning around 10-20 turns after adoption, your empire will be Snow... And won't be Glacier for another 60-80.

Added the White Hand religion.

Full details, and changes to the Illians to compensate, are available here.
One thing not explicitly stated in that post: PROTECT the new Auric unit. If he is dead, Ascension may not be built; If he dies during the project, you will NOT receive an Auric Ascended unit. However, if he survives AA will keep all of his old promotions.

Several new features merged in from Orbis.

Mountaineer Mod

Essentially, peaks are no longer grouped with all other impassable objects. They are instead completely seperate, and the <bMountaineer> tag enables access to mountains. This will be added to most <MoveImpassable> units. Flying also naturally allows access. To go with this, peaks can now be assigned yields. In and of themselves, they grant nothing more than a high movement penalty and a high defensive boost... However, we can assign civ-specific yields for Mountains. ;)
Civ Yields: +2:hammers: for Khazad, +1:hammers: for Luchuirp and Jotnar.
Dwarven and Giant/Trollkin inherently allow access to mountains. For others, there is the Mountaineer promotion, with two paths to get it.

The promotion can be taken after Guerrilla 2, which requires RoK.
The promotion can be taken after Guerrilla 1 and Drill 3.

RoutePillage

New mission available for units. Can pillage any route on the tile. Made separate as you may not want to remove the improvement... Just removing the route can help with raiders like the Hippus.

Aqueducts now spread fresh water... This can be used to irrigate plots with the appropriate technology.
Units may now only withdraw once per turn; The Winded promotion is automatically applied, removing all withdrawal rate for the remainder of the turn. Withdrawal now also gives xp to both units involved.
Several other new features which are not used as yet; Mostly new trait capabilities.

Added a new player option to block automated construction of forts.

PLAYER option. Works just like 'Leave old improvements'. Please, no bug reports about it not being available in the Custom Games screen. :p

Several civs have been tweaked... Here's a (basic) list, leaving out the Illians/Frozen (Addressed in the White Hand changelog)

D'tesh:

D'tesh (the Hero) is more expensive. In return, he gains the Opalus Mortis equipment.

+4 Death Combat
+1 Death Affinity
Grants Death Affinity to summoned units.
Grants access to the Command Undead spell, a Dominate variant. Scions gain extra protection, but are not immune.

Thanatos gains the Fallen Angel racial, a variant of the Angel bonuses.

Immune to Death, Poison, Fear.
50% immunity to Unholy, Holy.
Not alive.

New Commander UU, Dullahan.

Fallen Angel of Death. Can command more units than the standard commander, and gains the Recon invisibility. In return, it is unable to cast Recruit or construct an Outpost.
Starts with the Fallen Angel racial.

New Salthouse UB, Morgue

Grants Melee and Archer units extra defense.

Scions

Small flavour bonus for Desert. We decided to create some rivals for the Malakim. ;)
This includes a flavorstart bonus, and the addition of a civ-yield: Scions gain 1:hammers: from desert.

Khazad

Peaks are now workable, 2 :hammers:.
The Dwarven Mine line will be allowed on peaks, some art issues to resolve first, however... Currently improvements sit on top of the mountain. :lol:

Clan (Quite a few changes here by Vermicious, I apologize if I miss some.)

Goblins removed entirely.
New Scout UU, the Boss. Depending on how he works out, the concept may be expanded to the entire Recon line, removing the Lizards.

Commander unitcombat.
2 :strength:
Able to hire various units each turn

New mounted line

Horseman - Orcish Wolf rider
Horse Archer - Orcish Warg rider
Knight - Ogre Boar rider (Tum Tum art)

New Fort Commander, the Overlord.

Able to hire an unlimited amount of various units each turn, if you can afford it.

The standard Hire spells have been removed; Only the Boss and the Overlord can use them.

This does not nerf non-Clan Barbarian leaders: There AREN'T ANY. Archos and Doviello are Feral, Hyborem is at peace with Demons. Haven't been any but the Clan for quite a while. ;)

Clan gains easy access to the Blaze spell, simply requiring the Orc racial.
Clan gains the Waagh! spell. Adds first strikes, reduces defense.

Lanun

Merged Riot_Starter's Lanun Workboat mod.

Most bugs in the bugthread have been fixed; Some (those requiring DLL work) have not.
Lair spawns have been redone... Thank Vermicious when you see them. ;)

No more Bears spawning from random dungeons, for one. :p

Rise from Erebus 1.12

Fixed Salt graphic
Fixed an issue with the Master of Ice passive effect.

Version 1.10 (Link)

Rise from Erebus 1.00

This is NOT a complete changelog by any means, but rather the parts I caught as I compiled the installer. :lol: Will be keeping a closer eye on changes from here on in, in order to provide a more complete changelog.

Base Code Added

JRouteNative - UnitInfos - Originally by Jeckel

RouteNative - Limits a unit to moving on just those routes listed. (See Mobile Fortress for an example)
RouteImpassable - Prevents a unit from moving onto a tile containing one of the listed routes.
RouteIgnore - Ignores all benefits from those listed routes.
RouteSubstitute - Substitutes the movement bonuses of one route for those of another.

SpreadRand - ImprovementInfos - Originally by Opera

SpreadRand - Works like DiscoverRand, but will only function if you already have at least one of the resource.

ImprovementsMods - ImprovementInfos - Originally by Jeckel, adapted by Ahwaric

MinimumDistance - Prevents the improvement from being built within this distance from improvements of the same type. Look at Forts/Bedouin Sits for an example.
CultureRange - The range of culture an improvement can control. Setting this to -1 with a positive ControlStrength will result in the improvement being named, but not producing culture. (See Cottages)
CultureControlStrength - The strength with which an improvement projects it's culture. This is always overwritten by city culture, unless the improvement has the bOutsideBorders tag, in which case it will remain in control of it's own tile.
CultureCenterBonus - Additional strength bonus for the tile the improvement is on.

CityPopCap - TraitInfos, TechInfos, BuildingInfos - Originally by Opera - Not currently used

Sets a population cap for a city. Can be affected by technologies and buildings.

UniqueLeader - LeaderInfos - Originally by Opera

Allows you to set leaders as unique, allowing only one to spawn in a game. See the two Ophelias.

LeaderRelations - LeaderInfos - Merged by Opera

Unique relations between different leaders

BonusAttitudes - LeaderInfos - Originally by Opera

Allows you to set diplobonuses/penalties for any resource

AlignmentStructs - LeaderInfos - Originally by Opera

Allows you to set diplobonuses/penalties for leaders of different alignments individually, and can be changed based on the alignment of the original leader.

HatedCivic - LeaderInfos - Originally by Opera

Allows you to set a leaders Hated Civic, in parallel to the Favourite Civic.

UniqueCult - TraitInfos - Originally by Opera

Allows you to set a leader as following a unique cult, granting the same diplopenalties/bonuses as if you were following a religion.

LeaderStatus - LeaderInfos - Originally by Valkrionn (:lol:)

Sets a leader as Major, Emergent, or Minor. Displayed in the pedia under alignment, displayed next to alignment in the scoreboard. Minor becomes Major upon settling/conquering a fourth city, Emergent becomes Major after gaining a trait.

Units

Orthus gains Raider and Berserker promotions
New Barb hero, Zarcaz the Long-Sighted, of the Muris clan goblins.

Ranged hero, drops a bow item.

Commanders gain 1 movement
Animals Overhauled

All animals gain expanded territories to spawn in, extra movement, new abilities.
Many new animals added.
Wild Pegasi added - Can only defend, 100% withdrawal. If you can manage to capture one, you can mount it, as the Austrin can.
In compensation, Austrin can summon Pegasi earlier, and more often.

Mazatl Workers lose Sun 1, gain a spell that can remove Marsh.
Mazatl Workers can gain the Deep Worker promotion, allowing them to actively spread Jungle.
All workers gain Tool promotions, equivalent to weapons. Stone -> Obsidian -> Masterwork
Mechanos gain a new Affinity System

All units with the 'Mechanos Affinity' promotion gain 1 Ranged Attack and 10% Ranged Combat Limit for each Refined Mana you posses.

Amurites gain new UUs, from RLD

Bladedancer - Axeman
Spellsword - Champion
Apprentice - Adept

Sidar gain the Trackless scout, from RLD
Many new Fort Commanders added. All civs listed below have either a UU, or gain a unique ability.

Khazad
Jotnar
D'teshi
Amurites
Austrin
Archos
Ljosalfar
Chislev
Kuriotates
Sheaim
Bannor
Calabim
Dural
Grigori
Hippus
Mechanos

Promotions

Zarcaz's Bow

+1 Air Combat/Range, +1 Poison Damage

Guardians of Pristin Pass

Each Guardian will now drop a unique piece of equipment. While very nice individually, if you place all the artifacts on one unit and take him back to the Guardian something nice may happen...

Dragon Slaying

Grants a +85% vs Monstrous Creatures rather than 40% vs Dragons

Jotnar Changes

Egrass gains all Kindred Promotions, moved to KotE. Can use all Weapons and Tools.
Trolls are now freely buildable.
Cyklop removed, replaced by Gothi. More in line with it's upgrades.
Most units gain extra support cost.
Jotnar can no longer build or upgrade Workers, instead rely on Adults for the main workforce. All units Adults upgrade to are able to serve as workers if needed.
New Warrior UU, Thrall Militia. Captured Goblins, uses Gretchin artwork.
Packmaster system added
A new promotion can be purchased for each animal pen in a city.

Jotnar spells fixed; No longer block normal spells. (Maelstrom, etc)

Moved from 1-tier cities to 3, ala Kurios. Higher food/pop requirement will combine with this to limit city spam.
Palace manas are now Body, Chaos, Enchantment

Features

Kelp and Kelp Forest added. Require FlavourMod to be enabled in order to spawn.

Improvements

Bair of Lacuna, Tower of Eyes, and Rinwell Isle UFs added
Guardian changed, see Shards promotions.
Bedouin Improvements now require one tile between all other Bedouin Improvements to be built.
Forts now require one tile between all other forts to be built.
Pirate Coves moved to a standard build order, requires same spacing it always has.

Buildings

Khazad gain the Slave Market building. Requires Evil, allows you to sell slaves without requiring the Undercouncil resolution.
Tower of Eyes is now Cathedral of Tali, grants free lighthouses.
School of Govannon merged from RLD

Leaders

Naxus - Amurites - Emergent
Xivan - Amurites, Calabim, Scions, Sidar - Minor
Corane - Archos - Emergent
Angaad - Bannor - Emergent
Ophelia - Bannor, Dural, Sheaim
Ophelia2 - Scions - Emergent
Cuai Ixl - Cualli - Emergent
Mihuatl - Cualli - Emergent
Jivorn - Svartalfar - Emergent
Emma - Removed
Sauros - Removed
All Minor Sheaim but Malchavic - Removed
All Minor Illians - Removed
All Minor Infernals - Removed
All Minor Mercurians - Removed
Malchavic - Gains Nightmarish trait, becomes Emergent

Traits

Merchant now grants +30% Food from trade routes
Mechanic now grants Mechanos Affinity to all siege units, rather than Mechanical.
Pretender grants Weak, rather than Estranged
Emperor's Cult - Granted to Agnostic Scion leaders, sets the leader as following a cult.
Necromancer - From Iceciro's MoarLeaders
Death Touched - From Iceciro's MoarLeaders
Controlling - From Iceciro's FlatLead
Usurper - From Iceciro's FlatLead
Strategist - Grants Tactics1 to all units
Nightmarish - Grants Fear/Vile Touch to Arcane/Discipe units, all cities gain 1 Unhappiness and 1 Science
Spiderkin - +20% upkeep costs, 10% less xp needed to level up, -10% GP birth, increases spider spawn rate. At nestsize 10, spiders spawn with the Spiderkin promo. At nest size 15, all units are created with the Spiderkin promo.

Spiderkin - +1 Poison Damage, passes on Poisoned to units in combat

GameOptions

Well-Known Faces - Limits random leaders to Major Status
The Acknowledgement - Limits random leaders to Minor/Emergent status

Routes

Railroad added - Requires Iron, Refined Mana, Engineering. Movement uses 1/6 movement point. Available to all civs, if you can get the requirements.

Techs

Masonry/Calendar have a new PrereqOR tech, Traditions. This means the Jotnar can now research them without needing the normal prereqs... Tech moved to reflect it's status.
Traditions now allows you to work water tiles.
Frozen technology added, from the Frozen mod.

Resources - All from RLD

Marble now requires Masonry to reveal, is a luxury.
Stone added, replaces Marble as a standard production resource. Increases build speed on many buildings, allows Stone Tools.
Obsidian added, only spawned via Volcano Eruption. Luxury, allows Obsidian Tools.

Interface

Many sorts/filters added to the pedia
Civilization screen massively reworked, courtesy Grey Fox. Added Blocked Units/Buildings sections myself, by Opera's request.
Production Popup MASSIVELY improved, courtesy Grey Fox.

This can be turned off by opening GlobalDefinesAlt, and setting USE_BETTER_POPUPS to 0.

LeaderStatus displayed below alignment in the Leader Screen, the Dawn of Man popup, and in the scoreboard.

Merged Mods

All RifE modules merged in.
Improved FFPlus AI
Spiders

Changes unitart for spiders who take the specialty promotions

Frozen

Adds the Frozen civilization, a summonable civ. In game documentation provided.

Blizzards

Allows Blizards to be created/move/die randomly. Can create temporary/permanent ice on land or water, and can make resources temporarily dissapear.

KillerClowns

Jun 29, 2009, 12:39 PM

Perhaps you should put a link to FfH's Patch A somewhere up there, just in case someone needs it?

kenken244

Jun 29, 2009, 01:38 PM

The download link leads to regular Fall Further, not Fall Further Plus.

Valkrionn

Jun 29, 2009, 04:11 PM

Perhaps you should put a link to FfH's Patch A somewhere up there, just in case someone needs it?

I'll grab the links I had already posted, but patch A isn't strictly neccessary. Hell, B would work, so long as you just copy the artpak over into the FFPlus Assets directory... Can't patch to 3.19 though.

The download link leads to regular Fall Further, not Fall Further Plus.

Woops. My bad, stole the layout from the FF threads for now... Using a phone, so it's rather hard to edit. :lol: Fixed.

Andvare

Jun 30, 2009, 06:39 AM

I couldn't download patch D. FileFront said the page was removed?

Haerzog

Jun 30, 2009, 09:33 AM

where is the art pack?

Valkrionn

Jun 30, 2009, 11:04 AM

I couldn't download patch D. FileFront said the page was removed?

Apparently the link got corrupted during the move... It's fixed.

where is the art pack?

If you mean for FfH, the artpak is pak0.fpk in the FfH/Assets directory. Move it over to the FFPlus/assets directory and you should have what you need. If you mean the FFPlus artpak, there isn't one, unless you count the MinorLeaders pak but it's just a few leaderheads. :lol:

Karuku

Jun 30, 2009, 07:07 PM

Okay, forgive me for being stupid if that's how I come off...But... Does one need patches A through D, or is D a summary of all the patches?

UNIT 666

Jun 30, 2009, 09:01 PM

It's not a stupid question. :\

Patch D includes all previous patches. (Patch C, Patch B, Patch A).

This is true for all patches in FFH, FF, and FF+ unless otherwise specified (such as a version change, i.e. from FFH 0.40 to 0.41; in that case, 0.41 includes all of 0.40's patches. 0.41 will have its own line of patches which function how I described above).

At least, that's how I've observed things.

Valkrionn

Jun 30, 2009, 10:07 PM

Unit 666 is correct.

Haerzog

Jun 30, 2009, 11:00 PM

Somehow, the file hosted at filefront is not what they say it is. When i redownloaded the file, it is still only downloading a 10mg file.

Edit: doh, wrong thread. Shifting to the other thread

WarKirby

Jul 01, 2009, 06:25 AM

I'm going to have to upgrade to 3.19 to work with FF's internal verson, so i won't be able to play FFPlus anymore until we release. :/

Valkrionn

Jul 04, 2009, 02:14 PM

Alright, got an updated link now. Thank you Vermicious. :goodjob:

Grimz101

Jul 10, 2009, 04:42 PM

Honor's Arcane Mastery mod merged in.
Sounds excellent, i look forward to playing with this :).

Valkrionn

Jul 15, 2009, 01:41 AM

Updated the changelog for patch E... Should detail most of Vermicious's Jotnar changes. Haven't had a chance to play with them myself yet, but I like them and he's been playtesting pretty exhaustively.

Darksaber1

Jul 15, 2009, 10:03 AM

Breez

Jul 15, 2009, 10:27 AM

Keep in mind with the reduced Water/Wind mills and increased food useage it won't be real easy to get that big. But I like that it is possible.

I love the Jontar changes for Mounted/Archery those make good sense.

Darksaber1

Jul 15, 2009, 10:31 AM

Well, the thing is that they can try to get more great merchants, and between a few more merchants and the food guilds they should reach size 15 or so without to much difficulty.

WarKirby

Jul 15, 2009, 10:36 AM

Vermicious Knid

Jul 15, 2009, 11:32 AM

Vermicious Knid

Jul 15, 2009, 11:38 AM

I agree with all of these, except Juggernaut. I think that's a fine name,

Also for Stormkin, how about Stormlord instead of Thunder for a promotion name. Thunder really sounds more like a spell in any case.

But some of these do look overpowered. Just like everything you make at first. :lol:
Valkrionn has no sense of balance.

I still remember running around with str7 hunters.
Oh, and str16 airships as the mechanos.
And a magic-immune, heals-while-moving War Machine as the doviello.

I'd advise thinking over that Tryggvi a bit. Speaking from experience, 6 first strikes with Gilden Silveric makes you almost invincible. 9 is only going to be moreso, and with ranged str12, that seems to take a lot of focus off the melee line, which doesn't seem to suit jotnar.

Why restrict Troll hunters to Tracking? Animal handling is only 1 tech beyond that, so you wouldn't get to play with them very long, most likely.

Some of the naval things you're doing also seem to encroash on the lanun quite a bit. Why give them seafaring? And better ocean tile yields in general?

In general, a lot of these changes sound fun, most of them sound varying degrees of overpowered, and a few are a bit too much change for my liking.

I always assume the happy medium is somewhere between your taste and my taste in terms of balance. I'm certainly open to playtesting feedback...won't break my heart to dial things back as needed. Hopefully a few of y'all will find the bits that are truly broken for me. :lol:

Seafaring does two things for them. It allows them to immediately work water tiles...which is needed because I changed their flavourstart. It also allows Pearls...which isn't a very big deal. They don't have any Domain_Water units, so they never get the +1 move.

The sea buffs are because they have a HUGE disadvantage using water tiles...the reduced city radius. Very hard for them to utilize coastal cities unless you buff their water tile production...and I want them to play like huge Vikings.

Troll hunters are moved up because an auto-acquire effect promo creates an intermediate recon unit at Hunting. :)

Valkrionn

Jul 15, 2009, 02:10 PM

I like the Kindred promotions-their so overpowered that I guess they make up for the small exonomic weakness, however I don't like the names Mulcarn's chosen and Efreet. For one thing, efreet are Arab Djinn. How about Hrimbursar (Frost giant) for Mulcarn's Chosen and Eldjotnar (fire giant) for Efreet? Juggernaut could possible be replaced with Bergrisar (mountain Giant), but that dosn't fit quite as well.
Also, if cities can grow above size 8, that help balance the exonomy, since they can get plenty of specialis.

I like those names too. :goodjob:

Keep in mind with the reduced Water/Wind mills and increased food useage it won't be real easy to get that big. But I like that it is possible.

I love the Jontar changes for Mounted/Archery those make good sense.

Well, the thing is that they can try to get more great merchants, and between a few more merchants and the food guilds they should reach size 15 or so without to much difficulty.

Yeah, food will need to be tweaked, they may even end up as high as 3 food per. Just because it's POSSIBLE doesn't mean it should be EASY. ;)

I agree with all of these, except Juggernaut. I think that's a fine name,

Also for Stormkin, how about Stormlord instead of Thunder for a promotion name. Thunder really sounds more like a spell in any case.

I like Stormlord better, too. :lol:

But some of these do look overpowered. Just like everything you make at first. :lol:
Valkrionn has no sense of balance.

I still remember running around with str7 hunters.
Oh, and str16 airships as the mechanos.
And a magic-immune, heals-while-moving War Machine as the doviello.

Lies and Slander! :p
Yeah, I tend to overpower things and have to tone them down.... But in this case, I had no part in it yet. I blame Vermicious. :lol:

I'd advise thinking over that Tryggvi a bit. Speaking from experience, 6 first strikes with Gilden Silveric makes you almost invincible. 9 is only going to be moreso, and with ranged str12, that seems to take a lot of focus off the melee line, which doesn't seem to suit jotnar.

Hmm... It takes quite a bit of money to get that unit, but yeah, that might be a bit much seeing as you can still get drill.

Why restrict Troll hunters to Tracking? Animal handling is only 1 tech beyond that, so you wouldn't get to play with them very long, most likely.

Some of the naval things you're doing also seem to encroash on the lanun quite a bit. Why give them seafaring? And better ocean tile yields in general?

In general, a lot of these changes sound fun, most of them sound varying degrees of overpowered, and a few are a bit too much change for my liking.

Verm already answered those questions pretty well, I think... With one tier, you need GOOD tiles to make a coastal settlement worthwhile.

WarKirby

Jul 15, 2009, 02:29 PM

Hmm... It takes quite a bit of money to get that unit, but yeah, that might be a bit much seeing as you can still get drill.

That's BEFORE Drill?

Dear science are you insane :eek:

I get 6-7 first strikes on Gilden WITH drill IV.

Valkrionn

Jul 15, 2009, 02:34 PM

Like I said, not my handiwork yet. :lol:

I think that lowering, or even removing, the first strikes from the Archery promotions should be fine. Normal archers don't have more than 2 built in, so forcing Jotnar 'archers' to go for drill is fine imo.

Valkrionn

Jul 15, 2009, 02:39 PM

Hurler:

Requires Archery. -2/+2 Combat/Defense. 2 Ranged Strength, 1 range, 15% limit. Bonus to city and hill defense. +1 first strike. Costs 50 gold, requires archery range, available to melee. Changes unitcombat to archer (which is needed for the subsequent promotions)

Strong Arm:

Requires Bowyers, Fletcher, 50 gold. +2 ranged combat, +15% limit, +1 first strike.

Deadeye:

Requires Bowyers, Age 100, Bowyer, 50 gold. +2 ranged combat, +15% limit, increases range to 2.

Tryggvi.

Actual unique unit, upgrades from Wielder. With all the archery promos (it only comes with the first one...but buying the rest is a no-brainer) it is a 10/18, ranged strength 9 (70% limit, range 3), collateral damage, marksman, 2-4 first strikes.

This should work a bit better, I think?

Vermicious Knid

Jul 15, 2009, 03:06 PM

Yeah, I don't recall giving any units 9 first strikes without promotions...that would be pretty overpowered.

Yeah, looking at it. It gets up to 6-9 after taking all of the archery promos for a total bill of 600+. Easy to adjust that downward as needed though. I honestly mean it to be sorta ridiculous...it is a tier 4 national unit that requires a number of otherwise useless techs.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 15, 2009, 03:13 PM

Valkrionn

Jul 15, 2009, 03:17 PM

Hmm... Maybe leave ranged strength at 3 per lvl, but drop attack another point for each level?

So +3 Ranged, -1 Attack.

armyofwhispers

Jul 15, 2009, 03:24 PM

Besides, anything that actually gets close enough to attack them is going to be heavily damaged by the 3 range that they have to shoot at them.

WarKirby

Jul 15, 2009, 03:27 PM

Vermicious Knid

Jul 15, 2009, 03:38 PM

I think it ought to be able to achieve 100% range damage limit. I believe other T4 archery units can with the Archery Promo line.

But 18 defence strength seems a bit much, on top of those first strikes.

Also, how about making him UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE. Mainly so that Cover doesn't affect him. Presumably he'd be tossing things large enough that any tree you hide behind would be crushed,

Well....UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE would be interesting. I've avoided it because I blocked siege workshop/master siegesmith and i didn't want to rework a bunch of promotions.

I think he can achieve 100% if he takes all the basic archery promos. I'll make sure he can in the final product.

18 is high...but a crossbowman has 13. Bearing in mind that a Tryggvi can't benefit from defensive bonuses, the crossbowman is actually tougher to root out.

I'd like to see some playtest feedback before making any drastic changes, but I can see...

1. Reducing first strikes to whatever level we decide is reasonable, OR
2. Decreasing defensive strength and allowing defensive bonuses, OR
3. Making the unit more expensive.

EDIT: Too bad a unit can't have two unitcombats. Archery/Siege would be perfect here.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 15, 2009, 03:53 PM

And another thought...I coudl rework the whole "Archery line" as the "Siege line". That might actually be better...I'll give that a quick look tonight.

WarKirby

Jul 15, 2009, 04:16 PM

I think option 2 is good. Allowing defensive bonuses would make him unique among the jotnar,

Breez

Jul 15, 2009, 05:13 PM

And another thought...I coudl rework the whole "Archery line" as the "Siege line". That might actually be better...I'll give that a quick look tonight.

In light of we are talking Giants throwing boulders that makes the most sense to me.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 15, 2009, 05:19 PM

In light of we are talking Giants throwing boulders that makes the most sense to me.

The promotions make more sense as well, particularly Valk's nasty ammo promos.

Valkrionn

Jul 15, 2009, 08:34 PM

I like the siege idea there too... :goodjob:

far_wanderer

Jul 15, 2009, 09:08 PM

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 10:54 AM

A few minor points:
1 - Do Titan's still get Blood of the Phoenix, or have you made them actually immortal?
2 - From my previous experience with Goliath, remember that the Siege unitcombat has a lot of other baggage attached to it - like not being able to pick up equipment or explore lairs, for starters.
3 - The effect promotion for Wild Trolls at Hunting could use a boost. Unless you changed something else that I'm not seeing, that puts them at equal to normal hunters but much more expensive, harder to replace, and with the added penalty of Estranged. Especially with the addition of an early melee unit, that will make the recon line a lot less attractive.
4 - For militia, one way to do it would be to give them a chance to revolt if no giants are in their square.
5 - Hope was pretty key, and I notice you've removed both Spirit mana from their palace and the spell from Divine units. Any particular reason for the sudden prevalence of Mind instead? It seems like a strange switch, especially if you want them to be more Viking-like.
6 - Does Artisan stack with itself?
7 - Kindred promotions are mutually exclusive, right?

Good questions all.

1. Actually Immortal
2. Yeah, I'm aware of the problems here. Not happy about it...but Siege is looking like the best of two imperfect options. I actually switched it from promotion-based upgrades to a more traditional format, reblocked the archery line. Bowyers and Fletchers were pretty silly anyway.
3. They get +1 move, + 1 power, and can benefit from defensive bonuses. The estranged isn't a huge issue...seakin and woodkin both overwrite it. Spamming wild trolls is a bad idea (except for Uxol), but having a few upgraded ones is very useful for all the leaders.
4. I'll look into that. :)
5. The Jotnar economy is dependent on acquiring and controlling large numbers of slaves. Mind helps with that. They aren't "heroic idiot in a horned hat" sorta Vikings. :D
6. Artisan stacks. If you have 5 eligible Jots sitting in a city that is +10 hammers. Of course, it is "must maintain"...so they lose the promo if they move.
7. Yes, absolutely. Jot adults start with an effect promo(two, actually) that is overwritten when a Kindred or Allegiance promo is selected.

Hawkwood

Jul 16, 2009, 11:21 AM

Have you included Vermicious Knid's Chariot changes? Because it's not mentioned in the changelog.

Valkrionn

Jul 16, 2009, 12:50 PM

Actually, it is. :lol: Been up there for a few days.

6. Vermicious' Mounted Revamp is in.

[to_xp]Gekko

Jul 16, 2009, 01:22 PM

care to spare the details about that? :D

Valkrionn

Jul 16, 2009, 01:27 PM

Here you go... Had to find the link.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322725

far_wanderer

Jul 16, 2009, 01:32 PM

Good questions all.

1. Actually Immortal
2. Yeah, I'm aware of the problems here. Not happy about it...but Siege is looking like the best of two imperfect options. I actually switched it from promotion-based upgrades to a more traditional format, reblocked the archery line. Bowyers and Fletchers were pretty silly anyway.
3. They get +1 move, + 1 power, and can benefit from defensive bonuses. The estranged isn't a huge issue...seakin and woodkin both overwrite it. Spamming wild trolls is a bad idea (except for Uxol), but having a few upgraded ones is very useful for all the leaders.
4. I'll look into that. :)
5. The Jotnar economy is dependent on acquiring and controlling large numbers of slaves. Mind helps with that. They aren't "heroic idiot in a horned hat" sorta Vikings. :D
6. Artisan stacks. If you have 5 eligible Jots sitting in a city that is +10 hammers. Of course, it is "must maintain"...so they lose the promo if they move.
7. Yes, absolutely. Jot adults start with an effect promo(two, actually) that is overwritten when a Kindred or Allegiance promo is selected.
1 - Yay!
2 - My point actually wasn't that Siege was a bad idea, but that there were some other things that should be fixed if it gets used. I think that it's just a matter of adding an additional unitcombat to the list of what can cast the relevant spells.
3 - I brought it up because the changes you made severely devalue the early recon line, and I wanted to make sure you intended to do that.
6 - The problem is that workers can be built. The ability to build an infinitely repeatable thing that makes you build stuff faster sets off major exploit warning alarms for me. It sounds awesome for Jotnar adults, though.

Also, I had originally assumed the Kindred promotions were religion based, but I see that's not the case. That makes them a lot more awesome looking.

And on a side note, I think it would be cool at some point to make an actual archery unit for the Jotnar. As in, one that uses a bow.

Hawkwood

Jul 16, 2009, 01:37 PM

Actually, it is. :lol: Been up there for a few days.

6. Vermicious' Mounted Revamp is in.

I could have sworn it wasn't there when I looked for it, but maybe that was because I searched for the word Chariot instead of Mounted.

Valkrionn

Jul 16, 2009, 01:38 PM

2. I wouldn't add all Siege to the list, as most shouldn't have weapons and so on. I'd make specific exceptions, personally. So: If Siege -> If Jotnar -> Allow.
3. Actually, for Uxol the recon are very powerful... Extra strength, unable to go wild. And 2 kindreds block going wild as well.
6. Ooooh... That one DOES sound a bit exploity. Maybe give them a seperate one that doesn't stack?

Breez

Jul 16, 2009, 01:42 PM

Good questions all.
4. I'll look into that. :)

Could I counter suggest Giant OR Giant owned City in same square?

[to_xp]Gekko

Jul 16, 2009, 01:47 PM

thanx Valk. that does sound nice. I'm having doubts about the chariots having cargo capabilities though. the Total Realism mod had jeeps that could quickly carry other units around, but the AI sadly could never get a hang of it, and I think it will be the same here. or am I missing something? :D

Valkrionn

Jul 16, 2009, 02:16 PM

The AI won't really be able to understand it, no, but it's a relatively minor thing so I don't mind in this case.

armyofwhispers

Jul 16, 2009, 02:29 PM

Don't Jot workers need to be upgraded from adults? I thought the only one that could be built for the rediculously expensive settler

Valkrionn

Jul 16, 2009, 02:37 PM

No, workers can be built. Honestly, I'd have no problem completely removing them, and making the Adults full speed workers.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 02:41 PM

1 - Yay!
2 - My point actually wasn't that Siege was a bad idea, but that there were some other things that should be fixed if it gets used. I think that it's just a matter of adding an additional unitcombat to the list of what can cast the relevant spells.
3 - I brought it up because the changes you made severely devalue the early recon line, and I wanted to make sure you intended to do that.
6 - The problem is that workers can be built. The ability to build an infinitely repeatable thing that makes you build stuff faster sets off major exploit warning alarms for me. It sounds awesome for Jotnar adults, though.

Also, I had originally assumed the Kindred promotions were religion based, but I see that's not the case. That makes them a lot more awesome looking.

And on a side note, I think it would be cool at some point to make an actual archery unit for the Jotnar. As in, one that uses a bow.

1. Yeah, true. If you have a wishlist of things you want enabled I will make it so. :)
3. They are actually stronger, believe it or not. Did I mention that the upgrade at Hunting makes them heal on the move even when regeneration isn't active?
6. Not in my version they can't. :D Only Jot Giantkin units that can be flat-out built are Settlers and Egrass.

As for the archery...I don't disagree, really. Would probably need to be a ballista unit...and siege might still be a better category for that.

Valkrionn

Jul 16, 2009, 02:42 PM

Well, I see that's fixed already then. :lol:

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 02:44 PM

No, workers can be built. Honestly, I'd have no problem completely removing them, and making the Adults full speed workers.

Only issue there that I see is UNITCOMBAT_WORKER...if the adult clicks on any of those nifty worker promos he loses them when he upgrades.

I'd be happy to sub the Worker art I'm using for the adult art and delete the worker entirely. Not a huge balance issue that I can see. I'll just leave them with no unitcombat.

Valkrionn

Jul 16, 2009, 02:46 PM

As long as workers can't be built, I think it's fine... You get the normal, slow workers (Adults), and the specialized, high speed workers able to take the promotions.

armyofwhispers

Jul 16, 2009, 03:08 PM

When I played the Jots I was always choked when I lost a worker since they were such a huge investment. Especially when it was one of the original ones that was older than most of my titans... :) I was especially glad to hear that the workers will now be getting access to the Jot age promos.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 03:17 PM

armyofwhispers

Jul 16, 2009, 03:49 PM

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 03:52 PM

It was a while ago, but I think I was playing Hephaestus. By the end game, when hell beasts are spawing and your worker goes to build something over by the edge of your lands, it's taking a very real risk even with the 9 defensive str they mostly had.

They should be able to get up past 15 with metal armor and age promos now. More if you give them a Kindred promo.

Should be sufficient to fend off some bad guys. :D

armyofwhispers

Jul 16, 2009, 04:25 PM

I did play two games as Jot, one as father and one as Haphaestus... perhaps I was thinking of the father game...:confused:

EDIT- Hey will workers have access to the kin promotions?

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 05:47 PM

I did play two games as Jot, one as father and one as Haphaestus... perhaps I was thinking of the father game...:confused:

EDIT- Hey will workers have access to the kin promotions?

They have access to fire, frost, stone, and storm. Wood and sea are reserved for trolls.

armyofwhispers

Jul 16, 2009, 07:00 PM

Considering the new fishing boats are now going to be farms in the ocean, I would argue that they should be granted access to the sea line as well?

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 07:04 PM

Considering the new fishing boats are now going to be farms in the ocean, I would argue that they should be granted access to the sea line as well?

Well...the sea line is composed of Viking raiders and Pirates. Not farmer-types. :)

The sea farms are meant to represent sealife being herded by Seakin trolls. The sea line doesn't have the ability to breathe water...so that isn't really an option for them. :D

EDIT: If you mean allowing seakin for the mounted units...that is possible, I suppose. Begs the question of why they would bother with ships though. :)

armyofwhispers

Jul 16, 2009, 07:11 PM

I meant seakin for the workers actually.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 16, 2009, 07:16 PM

I meant seakin for the workers actually.

Oh....that would be easy. I was keeping the two lines just for trolls, but...I could be swayed for the workers, I suppose. Troll worker art would make it less jarring...

Breez

Jul 19, 2009, 05:12 PM

051 has been avilable for at LEAST 3 min now...

/taps foot impatiently

Grimz101

Jul 19, 2009, 05:16 PM

051 has been avilable for at LEAST 3 min now...

/taps foot impatiently

QFT
10 char

Iceciro

Jul 19, 2009, 05:19 PM

Seriously. How am I supposed to mod without the mod of the mod of the mod I'm playing?

WarKirby

Jul 19, 2009, 05:45 PM

Seriously. How am I supposed to mod without the mod of the mod of the mod I'm playing?

I am completely lost :confused:

how deep does the rabbit hole go, alice ?

Vehem

Jul 19, 2009, 05:51 PM

051 has been avilable for at LEAST 3 min now...

/taps foot impatiently

QFT
10 char

Seriously. How am I supposed to mod without the mod of the mod of the mod I'm playing?

*tag's Valk*

You're it. :D

Valkrionn

Jul 20, 2009, 01:04 AM

:cry: Probably be a few days yet, unfortunately.

Guybrush!

Jul 20, 2009, 01:08 AM

:cry: Probably be a few days yet, unfortunately.
:(. Oh well. Rome was not built in a day.

[to_xp]Gekko

Jul 20, 2009, 01:39 AM

waiting till patch week cools off is usually a smooth move :p

Valkrionn

Jul 20, 2009, 10:06 AM

Well, that and I don't have a computer I can actually play the game on yet. :lol: I COULD merge the new version, and even package it in an installer, but I'd have no SURE knowledge that it worked, and wouldn't be able to update the DLL... No Wildmana options.

[to_xp]Gekko

Jul 20, 2009, 12:51 PM

I wonder why all this cool stuff was not included in 051. wild mana, being a gameoption, would be a perfect addition, as would D'tesh and the Mechanos, Doviello+ and Malakim+ :(

cyther

Jul 21, 2009, 09:06 AM

A small request for the next version. When I import some things from your mod they are not really in good coding. Could you try to not mix up some of your improvements with things from other XML files?

Here is an example from the Improvement Art Defines:
<ImprovementArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_REFINERY</Type>
<bExtraAnimations>0</bExtraAnimations>
<fScale>20</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>1.0</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Civs/Mechanos/Improvements/Refinery/magicorb.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
<Button>, ,Art/Erebus_Atlas.dds,5,4</Button>
</ImprovementArtInfo>
<BuildingArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_DWARVEN_MINE</Type>
<LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x2</LSystem>
<bAnimated>1</bAnimated>
<fScale>10.0</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.5</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Civs/Khazad/Dwarven Mine/gauricentervillage.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
<Button>Art/Civs/Other/FortCommander/FortB.dds</Button>
</BuildingArtInfo>
<BuildingArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_DWARVEN_SETTLEMENT</Type>
<LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x2</LSystem>
<bAnimated>1</bAnimated>
<fScale>12.0</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.5</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Civs/Khazad/Dwarven Mine/gauricentertown.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
<Button>Art/Civs/Other/FortCommander/FortB.dds</Button>
</BuildingArtInfo>
<BuildingArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_DWARVEN_HALL</Type>
<LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x2</LSystem>
<bAnimated>1</bAnimated>
<fScale>14.0</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.5</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Civs/Khazad/Dwarven Mine/gauricentercity.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
<Button>Art/Civs/Other/FortCommander/FortB.dds</Button>
</BuildingArtInfo>
<BuildingArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_DWARVEN_FORTRESS</Type>
<LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x2</LSystem>
<bAnimated>1</bAnimated>
<fScale>17.0</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.5</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Civs/Khazad/Dwarven Mine/gauricentercitadel.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
<Button>Art/Civs/Other/FortCommander/FortB.dds</Button>
</BuildingArtInfo>
<BuildingArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_DTESHI_CRYPT</Type>
<LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x2</LSystem>
<bAnimated>1</bAnimated>
<fScale>10.0</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.5</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Civs/Dtesh/HauntedRuin/hauntedruin.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Improvements/Graveyard.dds</Button>
</BuildingArtInfo>

Xienwolf seems to have coded FF to take almost anything and still work but FfH and Civ4 will cause really odd errors from stuff like this.

Sorry if I came off a bit harsh from this.

WarKirby

Jul 21, 2009, 09:26 AM

Valkrionn

Jul 21, 2009, 02:36 PM

How in the hell did I do THAT? :eep: I tend to copy entries from other entries in the same file, I may have had a bad file open... I'll go through and clean it up. Thanks for pointing it out, it could very well cause problems for some people. :goodjob:

Valkrionn

Jul 21, 2009, 04:34 PM

Haven't added this to the changelog yet, but Vermicious did a bit more to the Jotnar... Here's the post from the private thread.

1. The archery/siege line. Siege was just too wonky. Too many things tied to that unitcombat, with no obvious way to get around it. What I did was create 3 archery units, blocked the archery techs, and have them access to some of the master siegesmith promos. Hurler is 4/6, 3 aircombat (1 range, 25% limit, collateral hit up to 4), 1 first strike, requires Masonry. Deadeye is 8/10, 6 aircombat (1 range, 50%, collateral 6 targets), 2 fitst strikes, requires Engineering + siege workshop). Tryggvi is 12/16, 9 aircombat (1 range, 75%, collateral 8 targets), 3 first strikes, requires Machinery + Blasting powder. Will probably use Handcannon art.

2. To encourage scattered settlement I added a spell that lets a Jot Fort Commander w/expanded influence found a city. Cost 100 gold...might make it cost 200, but the delay is VERY significant.

2a. Reaver line can build forts.

3. Increased work rates. Decreased number of cities = fewer jots = fewer workers. Nothing fun about spending 16 turns building an improvement.

3a. The Jot/city limit may need to be increased. Spawn rates are pretty slow when you only have 3-4 cities (which is where I'm ending up 100 turns in).

4. Added the unique buildings we discussed to replace the Summer/Winter palace...plus a few more. Halls of Summer (fire mana), Autumn (earth), Winter (ice), Spring (Nature), and Years (air + water). All have some other minor effects as well. Cost is 400 for all except Hall of Years...which is 800. Helps with mana availability, which was an also an issue with the small number of cities.

4a. The unique buildings are sufficient. No world spell needed.

5. Leader Traits.
5a. Father: Conqueror, Aggressive, Slaver. Very aggro leader. Optimized for conquering civs and taking loads of slaves.
5b. Mother: Philosophical, Financial. Spiritual. Builder leader.
5c. Uxol: Raiders, Arcane, Treacherous. All about the trolls. With the new build orders Uxol can go almost all troll. Added an effect promo that turns Egrass into an arcane unit for Uxol, gives him heal after combat. He is also able to take Channeling 2 at KotE.
5d. Egrass ends up being very different for the three main leaders...which sorta rocks, IMO.
5e. Hephaustus: Split Blacksmith off as just the Armored promo and make him Blacksmith/Veinhunter/Minor.

6. Minor building changes. Killed the maintenance break from most of the unique buildings. Monument allows 1 priest, House of Ancestors allows one sage and one priest.

Thinking about making the Hall buildings require you build them in seperate cities, but they make up pretty well for not having a worldspell... Especially if limited that way. Makes you have to pick and choose as you go, and won't let your production city churn them out... Keeps your arcane units from being too strong early too.

Iceciro

Jul 21, 2009, 05:05 PM

I like the idea of forcing them to be in different cities.

WarKirby

Jul 21, 2009, 05:08 PM

I don't think anything could ever make up for not having a worldspell.

Every time I'm playing a game with my cousin, he always asks if the jotnar have a worldspell yet, and when I say no, he refuses to play unless they're blocked from appearing. I share his opinion that without it, they just feel unfinished.

For the record, I really don't agree with the "balance without parallel" philosophy. And especially not in this case. I think every civ needs a worldspell. I think parallels can work well, if they're not just complete mirror images of one another. most world spells are relatively unique in their effects, though they generally share a few common traits (with occasional exceptions):

1. Worldspells become better as the game goes on, encouraging them to be saved until you really need them. Example being the Luchirp spell. The benefit depends on the number of cities you have. Calabim one is similar, as are Khazad, ljosalfar, bannor, well, just about all of them. just about the only exception is the CoE spell, For The Horde, which is best used in the first 50 turns, because the number of barbarians falls as civs expand.

2. Worldspells become available for use fairly early. quite a lot of the FFH civs can use theirs from the start, and most are tied to fairly early techs at most. the Bannor worldspell is about the latest one I can think of. But because of Point 1, using them as soon as you're capable is rarely the best course of action.

3. Worldspells encourage thought on the part of the player, as to when is most tactically beneficial to use them. The Ljosalfar spell, for example, is best used when an enemy SoD is at your gates. It both allows you to annihilate almost any invading army, and launch an instant counterattack, probably taking a city or two. A worldspell that is best to use as soon as you possibly can, is a failure in this regard.

I know I'm not alone in this line of thinking, either.
For the record, I feel that the scion worldspell is a bit underwhelming, and tarq seems to agree. The Mazatl one isn't much better.

I'm still in favour of the "Wisdom of the ancestors" spell, which would increase the unitage of all currently alive giants. It's usefulness would obviously increase as the game goes on, because the number of giants you have gradually increases. The longer you wait, the grester the benefit.

Iceciro

Jul 21, 2009, 05:16 PM

I think that's rather silly. I mean, IMHO, the Scions really don't have much of a Worldspell - the Dark Council isn't awful, but for a worldspell it isn't quite so epic.

I don't see the need for every race to have a preset list of features.

WarKirby

Jul 21, 2009, 05:30 PM

Frankly, the Dark Council is something which could just as easily be implemented as a wonder, with no real loss.

A wonderful suggestion was made at some point that I liked a lot better. A new Scion worldspell, "Heroes of this Age", which would allow you to resurrect and control a hero which has already died.

The Dark council doesn't even really have that much overall effect. I'd personally much rather have Donal or Chalid under my control.
Imagine a Scion worldspell that only works for heroes that have died in the last 5 turns. A ritual which steals a powerful soul away before arawn can claim it. It would require careful timing as to when to use it . Could allow you to get any unit with the Hero promotion (ie, not dragons, or other great beasts, but possibly Orthus) which has died, if you time it right. Offer a dead hero a new eternal unlife, serving you instead.

But my general point is, that the Dark Council has no situational effect. And relatively minor positives. You should build it as soon as you possibly can, because there's no reason not to. But equally, it's not really good enough to justify researching techs you don't much care about to get it. So either way you look at it, it doesn't promote choice or strategy on the part of the player.

The Order of The Wyvern (mazatl) spell is pretty much the same. Build ASAP, if you want to, but no real reason to work towards it except for the hero.

Perhaps I'll do a little work on worldspells someday...

Generally, I see a Worldspell as a Tool. An incredibly valuable tool which can only be used once, representing a great innate power that your chosen race has, and requiring careful tactical thought and planning as for when to use it. I guess, this is one of those areas where I agree with Kael's design philosophies. For The Horde excepted, all the FFH worldspells seem to fit my descriptions pretty well.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 21, 2009, 05:44 PM

xienwolf

Jul 21, 2009, 06:16 PM

Vermicious Knid

Jul 21, 2009, 06:20 PM

Ummm....yeah. I don't think I'll be making any DLL changes. Maybe Valk is feeling like giving it a spin.

WarKirby

Jul 21, 2009, 06:22 PM

You would have to expose the ability to change the creation turn of a unit, wouldn't be too hard to do, but does require DLL support. Shouldn't cause any issues though, as I don't know of ANYTHING that makes use of the creation time of a unit except age.

This seems an odd way to do it.

If for example, the spell added 100 to unitage, then wouldn't this method make the spell impossible to use before turn 100 (without causing crashing issues or somesuch)

xienwolf

Jul 21, 2009, 06:46 PM

That's why I said on the last part that I am pretty sure nothing else makes use of the creation turn. Negative numbers shouldn't actually cause any issue. And it is the only way to do it, short of making age a tracked variable instead of just calculating it from the current game turn and the creation turn.

EDIT: Well, you could make a variable for just Age modifications which is added to those calculations when done I guess. But that'd be a tad wierd I think.

Valkrionn

Jul 21, 2009, 09:03 PM

I really have to disagree with you here Warkirby. A worlspell for the sake of a worldspell is a bad idea, especially if the civ has some other powerfull feature like the halls.

That said, I do like the age idea... Although I think adding a percentage of the unit's actual age would be better than a flat buff.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 21, 2009, 09:05 PM

Maybe we are making this too hard. Python should be able to check promos. If the unit has Jot Giantkin and doesn't have the first age promo, the spells adds that promo. Etc...

EDIT: Alternatively, it could be a flat buff unrelated to age. Not too incredibly strong (don't want to allow an early rush), but significant. Give them Strong, perhaps?

If we want to make it trickier to use we could have it affect ALL giantkin on the board. We should have some Trolls, Hill Giants and Frost Giants wandering around...powering them up could be dangerous.

Valkrionn

Jul 21, 2009, 09:11 PM

Vermicious Knid

Jul 21, 2009, 09:16 PM

Not really a good solution, because then they can't get the next promo until they naturally should. That, or you make a new prom line with a lower req, and switch them all to that when you cast the spell... Easy with an effect promo. Still, that has a static feel... I'd rather reward aged units more.

Well...we could have the spell add an effect promo to all Jot Giantkin. Have a line of auto-acquire promos that have as their prereq that effect promo and the various age-stage promos.

The new promos could be an improved version of the age promos and overwrite them...or they could stack.

Valkrionn

Jul 21, 2009, 10:50 PM

I'd say overwrite. But again, I don't see why a new unit should be helped just as much as one that's been around 500 turns. I'd much rather work out a tiered system... Actually, would be possible without python if you make several clones of the giant promo lines. Or, better yet, remove the age req, add an autoacquire effect promo when it hits a certain age, and have them require THAT... put the standard req in help text. Then, have alternate promos as OR reqs to the first ones, granted at lower ages but requiring promos granted by the spell. Do this for each tier. You end up with more promotions, but make it easier for the user to search in the pedia.

Edit: Hmm... Best would be to have one base promo that does nothing but allow the invisible age promos. The visible one would then, in help text, list the ages at which the unit will improve.

Tiers:
Tier 1: Age 0-50. Grants NO bonus.
Tier 2: Age 51-100. Reduces requirements by 20%.
Tier 3: Age 101-200. Reduces requirements by 40%.
Tier 4: Age 200+. Reduces requirements by 60%, adds an aditional upgrade at age 400. (Equivalent to age 1000)

Gives an early benefit in that your Giants take less time to mature (50 isn't hard to reach), but is vastly more powerful later on as it should
be. Doesn't require DLL work either.

rocklikeafool

Jul 21, 2009, 11:36 PM

Fall Further Plus Version 021 for Fall Further

Installation
1. Install Fall from Heaven 2 and patch A. (Patch B not currently supported.)
2. Install Fall Further and patch.
3. Install the Fall Further Plus version and patch (if any) from the links below.

Main Download Here - Version 021
Patch D

Just a picky little note. FF is now a standalone download, meaning you no longer have to have FfH for it to work. So, you might wanna change this.

Valkrionn

Jul 21, 2009, 11:57 PM

Ah, but we're not compatible with the new version yet. ;)

I'll change it once it is, but as of now, those are still correct.

Vermicious Knid

Jul 22, 2009, 12:13 AM

I'd much rather work out a tiered system...

That is actually what I was suggesting. :lol:

World Spell = All Jots gain promoX
Promox = small benefit
Promox + Seasoned Giant = Autoacquire PromoY, bigger benefit

etc....

Valkrionn

Jul 22, 2009, 12:17 AM

Yes, but not in the way I meant. What you said IS tiered, but will eventually effect them all in the same way... What I suggested effects them differently, based on age at the time you cast it. A Jotnar of age 60 will NEVER get the same bonus of one age 300.

rocklikeafool

Jul 22, 2009, 02:17 AM

I personally like the ideas presented by Warkirby, the 2 worldspells to replace the Jotnar ("Wisdom of the Ancestors") and Scion ("Heroes of this Age") current worldspells.

I like that the Jotnar spell is timing related. The cumalitive benefits sounds good. I would suggest that the benefit be capped to unitage 300, just to keep the spell from being overpowered.

However, for the Scion spell, may I suggest that you can pick which hero to resurrect? And that you don't have the time thing where you can only resurrect heroes which have died in the last 4 turns or so. I'd like to pick between say, a Losha Valas or a Donal Lugh. Either one could be useful depending on the situation you're in atm. Also, lorewise this makes sense, several of the GPs, for example, are resurrected from another age (usually from the 1st age or the Age of Ice). For the AI, I'd add something where the AI just picks the strongest unit by strength. It makes it simpler and won't be as confusing for the dumbass AI "brain".

Iceciro

Jul 22, 2009, 03:39 AM

Valkrionn

Jul 22, 2009, 03:45 AM

As for the Jotnar idea... As Warkirby outlined it, I will never implement it. The Jotnar are all about units gaining str as time goes by... I have EXTREME issues with a spell that actually benefits younger units more. The way the age promotions are spread out, a bonus of 100 turns would grant two promotions to a new unit and only one to an older unit... Won't do it. As for the basic idea though, I like it, and will probably end up doing what I outlined a few posts up.

For the Scions, I honestly don't like that idea. I've been playing them since before Awakened were spawned, back when you had to build them all yourself, and in all that time have not thought of a worldspell that I liked, and was not broken. In this case, I think it's both... I don't like the idea of allowing a civs hero to any civ other than themselves, and think it could lead to some enormously powerful combinations... I don't think I'd ever put it in. I wouldn't remove it if Tarq put it in, but I don't think that will happen either.

Iceciro

Jul 22, 2009, 04:57 AM

I wouldn't remove it if Tarq put it in, but I don't think that will happen either.

{offtopic} That's funny, the first thing I learned to mod for was to remove something (!@%$ Guybrush Threepwood){/offtopic}

Brokenbone

Jul 22, 2009, 08:20 AM

That Scions "grab a dead hero" idea WK mentioned above is really cool. Birthright Regained could mean "grab a second dead hero" I suppose. I further suppose it'd be heroes with the Undead racial type, and therefore access to all the wacky undead type promos, buff magic that helps out the undead, etc.

It would be one of those "strategic" things to save up possibly from the start of the game and either hope you see a popup for an attractive hero being killed, or go actively seek who you want to off, kill them then immediately claim them. This'd probably mean having to somehow block the Resurrection spell for the civ who lost their non-religious hero... or let them cast it and you lose your stolen hero. *shrugs* Again though, you'd virtually be guaranteed SOME hero at some point, it'd be a gamble whether to simply jump at Orthus when his death message pops up, or hope for some better hero later in the game. Neat stuff.

That Dark Council business though is fun, "gotta catch them all", but does seem more like a Ritual or National Wonder type of topic. Maybe you can build it and have it dormant until you catch Alcinus and have him visit the relevant city and high five the other members *shrugs*

rocklikeafool

Jul 22, 2009, 08:53 AM

Thematically and on the cool-scale, I REALLY like Heroes of This Age, but I'm really not sure they NEED it for any reason.

But if we're just adding shinies for the sake of being shiny and putting balance somewhere off in la-la-land it's a stellar idea. (This may come off snarky, I just woke up from a wierd #$@%*&$ dream and haven't had any caffeine.

From the view of "need", none of the civs need a worldspell. It's all bells and whistles, man. (Hell, for the sake of argument, we could say the Scions themselves are a shiny. People like shinies; I'm a fan of em myself, provided its' balanced, not overly balanced though.) It's there cuz it fits the theme, as you said. But I think we need something better than Dark Council.

I think Dark Council could be a wonder a la Thaumaturge's Keep via Alucin. Have it still require the 4 councilors in the same city, of course. Then have the Scion Worldspell be "Heroes of the Age". Make it fit some of what's been suggested above, while, obviously, keeping it from being overpowered. Balance, but not too much balance, as always.

Hmm... Best would be to have one base promo that does nothing but allow the invisible age promos. The visible one would then, in help text, list the ages at which the unit will improve.

Tiers:
Tier 1: Age 0-50. Grants NO bonus.
Tier 2: Age 51-100. Reduces requirements by 20%.
Tier 3: Age 101-200. Reduces requirements by 40%.
Tier 4: Age 200+. Reduces requirements by 60%, adds an aditional upgrade at age 400. (Equivalent to age 1000)

Gives an early benefit in that your Giants take less time to mature (50 isn't hard to reach), but is vastly more powerful later on as it should
be. Doesn't require DLL work either.

Also, I read that quoted section a few posts back, and I've decided that what Valk suggested here sounds good. It has a cap, as I suggested, and gives more bonus to the older units. This balances it I think, cuz some of the Jotnar late units really are powerful enough. They don't need a huge buff that much. Also, I like the additional upgrade at 400. Imho, any upgrades after that would be overpowered and cause an imbalance.

UNIT 666

Jul 23, 2009, 09:49 AM

I'm also in support of the Heroes of the Age worldspell for the Scions! It sounds awesome! I hope it happens.

But, doesn't Patria have heroes of its own that can be enticed to come back? :l

What if their worldspell still built the Dark Council and then, ever afterwards, there is a low chance (based on your current chance to get an awakened) to attract a Patrian Hero to join the Scions of Patria, because the Dark Council is working its magic (advertising the wonderful benefits of being a Scion). Only one can be brought to the Scions - because, this person is a hero for his own pleasure. He's a celebrity! He can't have anyone taking away from his fame. Maybe he can even return (the same as when he died) later on, if he is enticed once again.

So, for example, you have a 10% chance to get an Awakened, which gives you a 0.5% chance (per turn) to attract the Hero of Patria Reborn to the Scions. Once the awakened stop coming, the chance is set to a very low value because the hero is bored of dying, or thinks it isn't fun anymore - but there's still a chance he can be persuaded. It would scale his strength based on how advanced the game is the first time he spawns. So, you can build it as early as possible to get the hero quickly, say a Heroic Axeman sort of guy. Or later on, for a Champion-equivalent hero.

I just suggest a warrior-type because then he can take advantage of metal to boost his strength later. :l

rocklikeafool

Jul 23, 2009, 11:23 AM

I'm also in support of the Heroes of the Age worldspell for the Scions! It sounds awesome! I hope it happens.

But, doesn't Patria have heroes of its own that can be enticed to come back?

I think the idea is that you could use some other civs dead hero against them. What's more awesome than using Donal Lugh against the Holier-than-thou Bannor? Using him as an undead version. Or potentially you could gain Orthus.

Besides lorewise, I think the Scions are in reality the "theives of Patria". Meaning that, yes, all civs did come from Patria (except the Elves and Dwarves), but the Scions have clearly perverted and twisted the original ideal and essence of Patria. As I understand it, the Risen Emperor took the idea of that utopian nation of Patria and used it for his own purposes. So, it wouldn't really fit for the Scions to bring back Patrian heroes.
Those are my thoughts on a potential risen Patrian hero anyway.

Besides, we already got the Councilors, who imho should remain, and can be used in some particularly nasty ways. (Polemec, for example, can subvert other civ's citizen to join you as Reborn; just be careful, using that ability could cause a war.) And Korinna, who, if you use her right, can kick some ass. Not to mention the useful priest line. The key to the Scions imho is using the right unit at the right time. In other words, use front line troops as front line troops, fodder as fodder, and your support troops to clean up. They are a full out war civ (if you decided to use em that way and not as a builder civ); using espionage, artrition, conversion, and brutal slaughter to win a war. You have to be creative and use skill with this civ, which I think is the point, from what I've gathered reading Tarq's posts.

BenjaminEmbarec

Jul 24, 2009, 09:58 PM

DELETED! (I'm an idiot. >.<)

EditEdit: When is this going to be 51 compatible? ;3

Webrider

Jul 26, 2009, 10:38 AM

I would suggest making your next patch/version 51 to match ff numbering so you know where we are at. Now that they don't need FFH I wont suggest they match ffh's numbering scheme. Following this mod essentially 3 mods deep into Beyond the Sword has been a challange. I have a friend who is less computer literate. Literate being an operative word since I can't spell worth a crap with out spellchecking. But trying to explain to him what he needs to do to be able to play mulitplayer with the same versions of everything is just amazing. Patch to 3.19 uninstall ffh version x install version x then patch to x+ then uninstall ff and reinstall version x patch to x+ then uninstall ff+ reinstall and patch to ++. and keeping the version number you need is interesting. This is just a suggestion BTW.

Valkrionn

Jul 26, 2009, 09:01 PM

That wouldn't last long, honestly. :lol: I think we'd end up outpacing their patches, and then our version number would be higher than theirs... Same problem as now.

Furien

Jul 28, 2009, 05:31 PM

Would it be possible to download version 50 of FF anymore so that I could use FFP? FFP has a lot of the Orbis features I like but I can't find a compatible version to use it with until patch E arrives.

Valkrionn

Jul 28, 2009, 06:35 PM

I believe all the files you'd need are right here. :goodjob:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8309508&postcount=1275

gunnergoz

Jul 30, 2009, 03:14 AM

DELETED! (I'm an idiot. >.<)

EditEdit: When is this going to be 51 compatible? ;3

Ditto on that question from me too.

Opera

Jul 30, 2009, 11:01 AM

Let Valkrionn some time :lol:
IIRC, he has a bit of issues with his computer right now, even though I may be wrong.

gunnergoz

Jul 30, 2009, 12:38 PM

NP Opera, you know how it is. Once I discovered FFH, it was easy to fall in love with the whole shebang of modmods too. When this one is ready, I'll no doubt enjoy it also. I don't know the folks around here as well as you do and so asked for a status update. I do appreciate that you modders are all volunteers and do things when time and life permits. :)

Valkrionn

Jul 30, 2009, 02:39 PM

Yeah, I have a computer again but the old one destroyed my BTS disk in the process of dying. :wallbash: Working on putting a patch together though.

gunnergoz

Jul 31, 2009, 12:34 PM

Cool, thanks Valkrionn. Too bad about the BTS disk. I hate it when the coffee cup holder on the PC goes haywire like that...

Webrider

Aug 01, 2009, 07:45 AM

a new age of the dog ate my homework.

Valkrionn

Aug 03, 2009, 11:38 AM

Just wanted to say the patch is underway... I can't test myself, but I can put it together and let Vermicious make sure it's working. :lol:

Few new tweaks so far...

1. Crusade moved to Membership
2. Floodplain delay dropped back to 5 turns.

Edit: :eek: Good thing I posted that about Crusade... Changed the XML, forgot to change the python to match. Fixed. :p

Valkrionn

Aug 03, 2009, 11:56 PM

Two additional changes:

1. Council of the Wilds boosts GC emergence by 20%, gives a good reason to use it if you don't want the animals.
2. Decided to put off merging in the Arcane Mastery mod... Need to think of suitable promotions/spells for Ice, Dimensional, Creation, and Force before I can buff the others.

Valkrionn

Aug 04, 2009, 01:18 AM

Right... Angels can now fly at combat 5. Equivalent to Demons with Fear.

Also, some gameoptions are going to be hidden (block religions, acheron, duin, etc). I may even hide FlavourStart, and simply set it on automatically like Orbis does... Not decided yet.

Edit: Changed Game Options: (This only applies in game, can be easily changed via GameOptionInfos.xml.)

Religious Options - Invisible
No Duin/Acheron/Orthus - Invisible
No Worldspell - Invisible
No UFs - Invisible
All UFs - Invisible, always Enabled
Unrestricted Leaders - Invisible
FlavourStart - Invisible, always Enabled

xienwolf

Aug 04, 2009, 01:43 AM

Careful making stuff invisible but still allowing it to be turned back on in XML. It means that people can eventually have them accidentally flagged by playing a different mod before playing yours, then be left confused about odd things happening. The only real safe approaches are to re-write the entire saving of gameoptions to be specific to the mod played (hard), disable saving of gameoptions between loads (sucky, but effective) or force-disable anything you don't want to have be visible (what I chose to do in FF)

Valkrionn

Aug 04, 2009, 01:56 AM

I've always said to start a quickgame before playing, so as long as people stick with that it should be fine... I just think there are too many options visible atm, and most of those are only there for scenarios anyway. The others... Does anyone NOT use flavourstart or all UF's? :lol:

Edit: Thought I'd mention, patch is essentially complete. Need to get some access with Paintshop so I can add in the Machinarum religious icons, but that's it other than testing. Hopefully, it'll be out by Wednesday.

Opera

Aug 04, 2009, 04:32 AM

Good to see you're progressing, Valk :goodjob:

FireBlaze

Aug 04, 2009, 05:34 AM

It'd be nice if 6 and 7 were still made visible

xienwolf

Aug 04, 2009, 09:01 AM

Oops, sorry about the Mechanarium, I thought I had located all extra religions/bonuses/corporations so that nobody would have to deal with the GameFonts who used FF as a base. :(

[to_xp]Gekko

Aug 04, 2009, 09:47 AM

I don't usre all UFs :p

I just think that on a normal sized map or smaller (what I play), they're just too common that way. it's fine on huge maps though.

Breez

Aug 04, 2009, 09:49 AM

I was just reading an old thread and wondered if these were still in concideration

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322754&page=2
Originally Posted by Valkrionn
Originally Posted by Redeyes View Post
Suggestion for "Agrarian":

* +1 food in plot with 2 food
* Doubles production speed for Granary and Market

Markets are fundamental for the farmer, and the way I see it, self-reliant population should be of a benefit everywhere - not just with farms. I think it works on a balance level as well, as food and population is still capped by happiness and health. Perhaps adaptive should be dropped as well now, for gameplay reasons (agrarian + financial) and adaptive doesn't sound like the Cassiel we have looked at in this thread.
That's basically in FFPlus, although I don't have the production bonuses... should add them.

Originally Posted by Rystic View Post
I'm my TweakMod, I gave the Grigori the Diverse trait, that makes units born in their empire have a random race. It also replaces UU's (so you won't get an Orc Hunter, you'll get a Lizardman). It's actually a pretty fun mechanic. I also gave them a Museum (+10% culture, +1 from Marble, +1 Adventurer), and made Dragonslayers able to upgrade to Luonnatar.
And I need to look into that trait...

and

Originally Posted by Valkrionn
Originally Posted by WarKirby View Post
Oh, riiiight. now I remember

I edited that in. I felt it was silly that they can't upgrade to medics.

could you make this change valk?
Didn't know that they couldn't.... That's rather ridiculous. I'm going to change that one.

Breez

Aug 04, 2009, 09:50 AM

Gekko;8331662']I don't usre all UFs :p

I just think that on a normal sized map or smaller (what I play), they're just too common that way. it's fine on huge maps though.

It seems on small you don't actually get ALL of them but more than you would otherwise. (maybe I am wrong but that is how it seems to me anyway)

VSPavlov

Aug 04, 2009, 11:19 AM

Please, excuse me for pressure, or possible inconvenience, but is there any ETA for the next patch? It's just I'd like to know, how much time do I have for HoI 3 :)

Opera

Aug 04, 2009, 11:23 AM

Valkrionn said it should be released on Wednesday :)

VSPavlov

Aug 04, 2009, 12:19 PM

OK, thank you.

far_wanderer

Aug 04, 2009, 12:40 PM

The others... Does anyone NOT use flavourstart or all UF's? :lol:
YES! All Unique features is terrible on Duel and Tiny maps, and still kind of strange on Small. Please leave that one available.

Valkrionn

Aug 04, 2009, 01:42 PM

It'd be nice if 6 and 7 were still made visible

I'll leave Flavourstart and All UF's alone, then... Unrestricted Leaders will remain invisible. I've never liked it for FfH, especially now with leaders gaining bonuses for their civs.

Oops, sorry about the Mechanarium, I thought I had located all extra religions/bonuses/corporations so that nobody would have to deal with the GameFonts who used FF as a base. :(

No problem, it would only take me two or three minutes to do if I could find my damn Photoshop key.... As it is, I just have to bum off a friend of mine later today. :p

I was just reading an old thread and wondered if these were still in concideration

The first one is Egalitarian, for Yakut of the Kuriotates... Egalitarian - +3 happiness, +1 food on tiles with 3 or more food, -10% commerce.
The second one, I don't think I'm going to use.

Please, excuse me for pressure, or possible inconvenience, but is there any ETA for the next patch? It's just I'd like to know, how much time do I have for HoI 3 :)

Hopefully, tomorrow. Depends on if Vermicious finds any bugs or not. :p

Edit: Here are the changed option tweaks.

Game Option tweaks.

Unrestricted Leaders - Invisible
Religious Options - Invisible
No Duin/Acheron/Orthus - Invisible
No Worldspell - Invisible
No UFs - Invisible
FlavourStart - Always Enabled

Valkrionn

Aug 04, 2009, 02:55 PM

Damn. Okay, due to unforeseen difficulties I can't get access to photoshop to do the Font file...

Anyone who knows what they're doing with the Alphalayer want to help out? It's just a straight copy of two icons, from Gamefont to GamefontNEW and Gamefont_75 to GamefontNEW_75. Just need the two Gear icons, after the Esus icons. All files are in the attachment.

Darksaber1

Aug 04, 2009, 03:24 PM

Giving Hephaestus Veinhunter and Blacksmith...won't that mean that tiles with 4 or more :hammers: will get 2 bonus :hammers:?

VSPavlov

Aug 04, 2009, 04:24 PM

I suppose, that should do the trick.

Breez

Aug 04, 2009, 05:37 PM

[/INDENT]The second one, I don't think I'm going to use.

Does that mean no Diverse Trait? :( that sounded neat with little actual gameplay effect.

What about Grigori medics? (3rd one listed above)

xienwolf

Aug 04, 2009, 06:51 PM

Hrm... Do you really want the religion icon to be a box? Personally I kinda hate anything being fully square in the fonts file, so I'd be willing to shrink down something better for you. I've grown fairly adept at resizing things in PS.

At the very least I could make your _75 image be less blurry, but if I do anything I'd rather remake it completely.

FireBlaze

Aug 04, 2009, 06:56 PM

I'll leave Flavourstart and All UF's alone, then... Unrestricted Leaders will remain invisible. I've never liked it for FfH, especially now with leaders gaining bonuses for their civs.

Aw, now I can't be Decius of the Lanun :lol:

Valkrionn

Aug 04, 2009, 11:19 PM

Giving Hephaestus Veinhunter and Blacksmith...won't that mean that tiles with 4 or more :hammers: will get 2 bonus :hammers:?

Nope. Blacksmith doesn't affect hammers anymore, ALL it does is allow the weapon promotions. Really, it could be done easily via a promotion requiring the trait and Jotnar... but less self-explanatory that way.

I suppose, that should do the trick.

That should work perfectly, thank you. :goodjob: Can't test the alphachannel sadly, but I'm hoping you did that part... Otherwise it doesn't show in game. :p

Does that mean no Diverse Trait? :( that sounded neat with little actual gameplay effect.

What about Grigori medics? (3rd one listed above)

It's neat, I just don't know if I like it or not. Not for ordinary troops. Now, for Adventurers... That would be more interesting, and fit better. I think most normal troops would still be Grigori, but adventurers could come from anywhere. Maybe grant a random 'civilization' promotion to adventurers, that determines what it can upgrade to? Say you get Amurite on one... When you upgrade, it'll be the Amurite UU for the unit. Just throwing things out right now though, would have to look at how to determine UU's for a civ before I could do this.

Hrm... Do you really want the religion icon to be a box? Personally I kinda hate anything being fully square in the fonts file, so I'd be willing to shrink down something better for you. I've grown fairly adept at resizing things in PS.

At the very least I could make your _75 image be less blurry, but if I do anything I'd rather remake it completely.

For now, a box works. Eventually I'd like just the gear to be visible, but I can't edit it myself atm so it doesn't really bother me. :p Although if you'd like to, I'd be more than happy to use it. :lol:

Aw, now I can't be Decius of the Lanun :lol:

Sure you can, but you have to turn the option on in xml first. :lol: There are just too many options visible as it is, and Unrestricted Leaders isn't too important when you have a mod that adds 40 leaders, and is going to be adding more. :p

A few more multi-civ leaders will be made as well... Need more than just Decius and Xiven. ;)

xienwolf

Aug 04, 2009, 11:35 PM

Too lazy to download the full mod and sift through for the DDS, but willing to clip down to just the gear for you if you'll post the DDS for the religion next time you get a chance.

Valkrionn

Aug 04, 2009, 11:48 PM

Well, I'll post the original (in an Atlas), and the dds I clipped from it. Either one should work, there was no resizing in between. It's 2nd column, 11th row.

[to_xp]Gekko

Aug 05, 2009, 12:13 AM

I seriously hope that hiding unrestricted leaders is not going to cause that weird bug that causes one of the options to work like unrestricted leaders :p

Valkrionn

Aug 05, 2009, 12:15 AM

Nope, that's only if you remove an option. All I've done is hidden it. :p

readercolin

Aug 05, 2009, 10:08 AM

I'm not sure that I would do no worldspell. I often turn that off in multiplayer (does it still give errors when you restrict a civ?) because I don't want to have to sit through ANOTHER 20 turns of stasis... Singleplayer the option to not allow the AI to be the illians fixes that problem.

-Colin

Opera

Aug 05, 2009, 10:55 AM

I'm more and more thinking about playing without worldspells too. I don't use them that often and they aren't really great either.

Vermicious Knid

Aug 05, 2009, 12:31 PM

I usually turn the Unique features off...adds a little too much random for my taste. I love the concept of super-powerful features randomly distributed...but not the current implementation.

EDIT:

What I mean is that I don't like the extreme difference in power level of the various improvements...and I don't like that some of them are an instant "I lose" for the AI.

What I'd prefer is a number of "power points/sacred sites" distributed around the board that can be developed into a "super-improvement" with a ritual/massive build order/spell/whatever. The super-improvements would be civ-appropriate: Elves would plant a seed of Yggdrassil, COE would erect a Pyre of the Seraphic, etc... I'd probably have the power points start with some hellacious held guardian beast and function as epic dungeons.

Valkrionn

Aug 06, 2009, 03:25 PM

Jotnar Staedding is now added by the palace, rather than python. Python was originally needed for the size cap, but now that it's gone there's no need for it. Should fix the bug allowing all cities to gain the building while Jotnar are in game.

Darksaber1

Aug 06, 2009, 05:36 PM

So, why did you change Skald and Vala to what they know have?

Vermicious Knid

Aug 06, 2009, 05:53 PM

So, why did you change Skald and Vala to what they know have?

Explain your question?

Darksaber1

Aug 06, 2009, 06:07 PM

Skald are know called Speaker, and Vala are know called High Speaker.

Vermicious Knid

Aug 06, 2009, 06:16 PM

Skald are know called Speaker, and Vala are know called High Speaker.

Huh...I don't think I changed their text. They were always UNIT_SPEAKER and UNIT_HIGH_SPEAKER. If I inadvertantly changed their names in-game I'll fix.

BenjaminEmbarec

Aug 07, 2009, 08:31 PM

So.. did you mean last wed, or next wed? :P Dying to try this again...

Valkrionn

Aug 07, 2009, 11:57 PM

Not sure atm actually... :lol: We're having some art issues, which are a pain to fix... Especially when you can't test yourself, and have to relay it to other people.

VSPavlov

Aug 08, 2009, 03:32 AM

Can I help you with Photoshop one more time?

Valkrionn

Aug 08, 2009, 04:27 PM

Sadly, that's not the kind of issue we're having. Some of the artdefs were changed, without me noticing during the merge, so I'm having to hunt through the unitfile to make sure all the artdefs referenced are valid. Found a few errors already... Varulv used GREATER_WEREWOLF instead of WEREWOLF, for example. They're a pain to find though, because there's no error printed. The game just crashes. :wallbash:

That said.... According to Vermicious, I have tracked down the last remaining artrelated bug. All that's left are a few xml issues, which are easily fixed. :goodjob: Patch due out sometime soon.

Opera

Aug 08, 2009, 04:29 PM

Glad to hear that :)

Valkrionn

Aug 08, 2009, 04:33 PM

You know what the error turned out to be?

I removed the minor Infernal/Mercurian leaders, and the artdefs for their leader-specific heroes... But I didn't remove the heroes themselves. :rolleyes: I'm just amazing like that, apparently. :lol:

Opera

Aug 08, 2009, 04:39 PM

This kind of things happens :lol:

VSPavlov

Aug 08, 2009, 04:59 PM

The more complex a system is, the more bugs it causes.

Even Notepad has its bug - and while making a mod-mod-mod for Civ IV, what do you expect to receive? :))

xienwolf

Aug 08, 2009, 05:10 PM

There is something in the utilities thread to automatically find art issues. Not sure how well it works, but couldn't have hurt in your case :) Also if you look in your logs folder there is a file called "resmgr" which announces quite a bit of failed art for you.

Valkrionn

Aug 08, 2009, 06:38 PM

Technically, this is a full download rather than a patch. So many things were changed between FF050 and 051, that a patch simply wasn't feasible, but I didn't want to change the version number just yet. :p

Please, report any and all bugs straight away, in the bug thread... Sooner they're reported, the sooner I can slam out a patch. :lol: I've also started a Jotnar discussion thread, so if you feel any of these changes are unbalancing, or would like some rationale for them, please post there. ;)

One last note: The Jotnar changes listed are NOT complete, and a few are obsolete (Archery, specifically). I will try to add to the list, but that's easier said than done, when you aren't sure what's actually listed already. :rolleyes:

Patch E:

Compatible with FF 051
Vermicious' Jotnar changes (Following list is far from complete, from one of his posts in our group forum)

Civ-Wide Changes:

No city size cap.
Jotnar Staedding added by palace rather than python code.
No link to AC for spawn rate. Too limiting for evil Jotnar.
Kindred Promotions (Woodkin, Seakin, Firekin, Frostkin, Stonekin, and Stormkin)
Palace mana Mind, Creation, and Law. Spirit is pretty useless for them. Life is also a possibility to replace Mind.
Unique monument. Gives +1 gold and +1 culture. Spawns a Jot Adult when built.
Unique barracks. Gives +1 happy, 10% commerce bonus. Requires code of laws. Allows them to build Thrall Axeman (replacing orc conscripts)
Staeding gives +1 food to water tiles. Encourages coastal starts.
Changed flavourstart to weight coastal start, riverside, hills.
Changed starting techs to seafaring and crafting. Allowing them to use water techs immediately is very important, as I changed the flavourmod settings to drop them in coastal starts. They don't have any DOMAIN_WATER units, so essentially all seafaring is doing is letting them work the tiles and use pearls. Crafting lets Hephaustus or Father beeline the metal techs.
Traditions civic loses number of cities maintenance bonus entirely. Gives 25% enslave chance.
Archery techs, Poisons unblocked. Mounted line techs blocked.
Eliminated distance maintenance entirely, +50% number of cities maintenance. The Jots can wander all over the map and settle the nicest spots they find...but if they try to spam cities their economy will tank.
2.25 food per population. Not a huge nerf, but it does noticeably slow early growth.
+100% trade route income. Might dial that back some...but it seems a better solution than adding gold to buildings. Encourages playing them as intended.
Civ bonuses to improvements....gone. +1 :food: on water tiles, improved fishing boat(sea farm). That's it.

Leader Changes:

Mother Enningas:

Spiritual/Financial

Father Kasghenal:

Conqueror/Slaver

Uxol the Half-Breed:

Arcane/Treacherous/Raiders/Pretender

Pretender: Grants Estranged to all Melee and Disciple units.

Egrass becomes an Arcane unit for Uxol, is able to take Channeling 2 at KotE.

Hephaestus:

Blacksmith/Veinhunter/Emergent

Unit Changes:

Thalls:

Slaves receive an effect promo. Changes the name to thrall. Thralls can be used a couple of new ways. "Long Pork" is a heal spell that sacrifices a thrall. "Conscript Thrall" converts a thrall to a Warrior. "Recruit Thrall Guide" converts a thrall to a scout.
Unit_Warrior receives an effect promo that changes their name to Thrall Conscript. More likely to defend the stack, defense only (preventing them from having spirit guide XP land on them), free unit.
Unit_Scout and Unit_Hunter receive an effect promo "Thrall Guide". Defense only, free unit. They can't pop lairs, but they can explore.
At Deception a promo becomes available for Hunters: "Thrall Cultist". Overwrites Thrall Guide, -1 Combat, Invisible_Animal, can pillage, extra first strikes and withdraw, infects culture, can explore rival territory, some other minor stuff. Expendable terrorist units, essentially.
At Code of Laws + Bronze Working barracks can be built, which allows Axemen. Effect promo renames them "Thrall Militia". They can attack. Considering giving them some penalty. Combat % penalty outside borders? Abandon % outside borders?

Jot Citizen:

No big changes here. They can only upgrade directly to bottom-tier units (Cyklops, Wild Troll, Huscarl, Worker, Settler, Jot Adept, Reaver). When in a city they gain a promotion that adds 2 hammers to the city production, "Artisan".

Worker:

Made them eligible for the Age upgrade promotions. Also eligible for "Artisan"

Melee Line

Huscarl:

Available at Mining. 4/6, can use bronze weapons. Eligible for "Artisan". Huscarls were historically laborers when they weren't fighting.

Hill Giant:

Cartography, Bronze. Can use bronze, iron weapons. No building requirement.

Wielder:

No change other than tier from 2 to 3.

Berzerker:

13/8. Fire theme stripped. Randomly go enraged. Immune to and cause fear. Heal after combat, blitz, pillage on move. No national limit.

Jotun:

16/16. Can cast Warsong. Buffs stack w/blitz, pillage on move, march, +1 move. Horribly powerful...but an end-of-line super-expensive unit should be.

Titan:

Currently unchanged.

Archery Line: This is mostly accomplished through promotions rather than unique units...

Hurler:

Requires Archery. -2/+2 Combat/Defense. 3 Ranged Strength, 1 range, 15% limit. Bonus to city and hill defense. +1 first strike. Costs 50 gold, requires archery range, available to melee. Changes unitcombat to archer (which is needed for the subsequent promotions)

Strong Arm:

Requires Bowyers, Fletcher, 50 gold. +3 ranged combat, +15% limit, +1 first strike.

Deadeye:

Requires Bowyers, Age 100, Bowyer, 50 gold. +3 ranged combat, +15% limit, increases range to 2, +1 first strike.

Tryggvi.

Actual unique unit, upgrades from Wielder. With all the archery promos (it only comes with the first one...but buying the rest is a no-brainer) it is a 10/18, ranged strength 12 (70% limit, range 3), collateral damage, marksman, 6-9 first strikes engine of shooty death. Of course, by the time you have it you've sunk about 600 gold into the thing + the cost of all the buildings and tech. National limit 4.

Recon Line:

Wild Troll:

I added Hidden Nationality back...but will probably remove it again. Too big a nerf for Uxol. At Hunting they get an effect promo that allows defensive bonuses, +1 move, +1 defense.

Troll Hunter:

Not available until Tracking. Otherwise similar.

Troll Ranger:

9/8 (9/9 with effect promo), available at Animal Handling. 3 First strikes.

Troll Elder:

No major changes.

Disciple Line:(Need Cyklops art for all disciples, or need to drop the Cyklops entirely.)

Cyklops:

Requires Mysticism, pagan temple, Education. 4/4, starts w/channeling 1, creation 1, medic 1, divine. All jot disciples can use the spread state religion spells.

Mouth:

Requires Priesthood. 6/6. Starts w/channeling 2, medic 2, jot spellcaster, mind 1, law 1. Can only be upgraded from Cyklop.

Voice:

Equivalent of High Priest. Requires Theology. 8/8. Add channeling 3, mind 2, law 2. National limit 4.

Adept Line:

Sloegrrekkr:

Basic adept. Requires KOTE, no building. 4/4. Jot spellcaster, channeling 1, spirit guide.

Speaker:

Unchanged

High Speaker:

Boosted to 8/8.

Naval/Mounted Line: No actual unitcombat Naval units.

Reaver:

5/5, 2 move, unitcombat mounted. Requires Bronze Working and Sailing. Upgrades from Jot Adult. No bad goodies, access to Bronze and Iron weapons, can cast escape (sneak away and return to port).

Freebooter:

10/10, 3 move, air combat 8/range 1/60% cap, collateral 100/60/7, Blitz. Expensive tier 4, upgrades from Reaver.

Reaver(Promotion):

Promotion that Reavers start with. 5 gold earned per successful combat, amphibious/waterwalking/boarding, +50% pillage

Longship(Promotion):

Autoacquire promo, requires reaver. When the unit steps onto a water tile their art changes to lOngship art, +1 visibility, +2 moves, +2 power/defense, +15 withdraw, +3 cargo.

Pirate(Promotion):

Promotion available at Optics. 100 gold cost. Can gain hidden nationality, +2 Combat, +1 move, +100% pillage, pillage on move.

Longship2(Promotion) (needs new name):

Autoacquire effect promo. Requires Astronomy, Pirate. +2 move, +2 combat, +1 visibility, +15% withdraw.

Kindreds:

Woodkin (Troll only):

Available to recon only through spell, requires Hunting, 100 gold. +25 attack/defense% in forest&jungle. Forest stealth (added as prereqOr along w/Forest Stalker).
Woodfather: Requires Woodkin, Age 100. Doubles attack bonus in forest&jungle, Nature affinity 1.
Woodkin spells/prereqs

Bloom: Woodkin
Poison blade : Woodkin + age 50
Mesmerize: Woodkin + age 100
Entangle: Woodfather
Summon Treant: Woodfather

Seakin (Troll only):

Promotion requires 100 gold, Fishing. Must be adjacent to water when transformation spell cast. -25% combat and -1 move on land. +50% combat on water, + 5 move.
Triton: Requires Astronomy and age 100. Gives Water affinity 1, some other stuff.
Seakin spells

Sea farm: Build Order, rather than a spell. Creates an improvement that is essentially a slightly improved fishign boat. Considering a gold cost. Represents Seakin actually herding/farming the sealife. Might disallow workboats for Jots...as sacrificing units doesn't feel right.
Submerge: Spell gives stealth on water. Have it available with just seakin right now...open to increased prereq if needed.
Capsize: 1 turn bonus to first strikes and withdraw, + 50% vs. unitcombat naval. Requires age 50.
Summon Water Elemental: Requires Triton
Tsunami: Requires Triton. Same effect as OO spell.

Frostkin:

Requires Philosophy, 100 gold. -1 Combat, -25% on desert. +2 cold damage, +25% on tundra and snow.
Mulcarn's chosen: Requires Theology, age 100. Ice affinity 1.
Frostkin spells

Freeze: Turns tile to tundra or snow. 2 turn delay.
White Out: Snow Stealth. Requires tracking.
Frozen lands: Same as old version, does a small amount of damage.
Summon Ice Elemental: Yup. Requires Mulcarns Chosen.
Snowfall: Requires Mulcarns chosen.

Firekin:

Requires Warfare, 100 gold. Reverse terrain bonuses of frostkin. -1 Combat, +2 fire damage.
Efreet: Requires Rage, age 100. Fire Affinity 1.
Firekin spells

Scorch: Considering a delay...otherwise the same.
Fireball: Requires age 50.
Ring of flame. Like the AV spell. Requires age 100.
Summon Fire Elemental: Requires Efreet.
Pillar of Flame: Requires Efreet.

Stonekin:

Requires Construction, 100 gold. +2 defense. +25% on hills and peaks, -25% in marsh. Immune to first strikes, +25% workrate.
Juggernaut: Age 100, Blasting powder. Immune to magic, ignore building defense, Earth affinity 1.
Spelunker(Promotion): Hills invisibility. Autoacquire, requires sanitation.
Stonekin Spells

Earth's Boosom: Turns tile into a hill. 2 turn delay.
Earthquake: Requires age 50.
Stoneskin (affects whole stack): Requires age 100
Summon Earth Elemental: Requires Juggernaut
Crush: Requires Juggernaut.

Stormkin:

Requires Trade, 100 gold. Aircombat 2/range 1/15%, +1 first strike, +15% withdraw, Defensive strike 10/5, -3 Strength, +2 Lightning, Immune to Lightning. Allows Hurler, Flying.
Thunder: Requires mercantilism. +3 air combat, +2 moves, +15% withdraw, +10/5 defensive strike, Air affinity 1.
Stormkin spells

Windtalker: Create building in city that gives +1 research/+1 gold, disappears if the caster leaves.
Lightning Bolt: Summon lightning elemental. Requires age 50.
Bellow: Same as Dragon's Roar. Age 100
Summon Air Elemental: requires Tempest
Maelstorm: requires Tempest.

Bug fixes
Tya Kiri's Reckless trait changed. Correctly applies Unready, but now grants Twincast to Mage level units.
Varulv moved to new Werewolf mechanic, gains Pack Leader and 4 minion slots. Maintains status as an improved Duin.
Crusade moved to the Membership category.
Scorch's Floodplains delay reduced back to 5 turns.
Council of the Wilds boosts GC emergence 20%.
Wasteland art switched to Shallows for now.
Corrupted Pasture is guaranteed Hell terrain... Only way to force Nightmares to stay around.
Angels can now take Flying after combat 5.
Scions now start with 3 creepers rather than a scout. Can be used for exploration, or an early seeding of Haunted Lands around your capital.
Game Option tweaks.

Unrestricted Leaders - Invisible
Religious Options - Invisible
No Duin/Acheron/Orthus - Invisible
No Worldspell - Invisible
No UFs - Invisible
FlavourStart - Always Enabled

Darksaber1

Aug 08, 2009, 06:46 PM

Yeah!!!!!

(Five explamation marks: an obvious sign of a desiesed mind
Windle Poons, Reaper Man)

[to_xp]Gekko

Aug 08, 2009, 09:47 PM

nice job Valk :goodjob:

Opera

Aug 09, 2009, 03:48 AM

Nice :)
Many changes to the Jotnar!

Jabie

Aug 09, 2009, 04:22 AM

Can't seem to get it to work. The link points to Patch E, but there's no link to the FF+ source.

Valkrionn

Aug 09, 2009, 04:27 AM

Because Patch E IS the main download. So much changed with FF 050 to 051 that to do otherwise would mean a patch as large as the main download... But I didn't want to append a new version number to it, so we're calling it a 'patch'.

Believe I said that in the post where I announced the download, but forgot to put it in the first post... Will do so now.

Castar

Aug 09, 2009, 06:13 AM

Is there a mirror download somewhere? Filefront download doesn't work :( Keeps downloading to somewhere around 15MB (or less) and then suddenly 'completes', obviously corrupted.

Treason

Aug 09, 2009, 07:54 AM

Is there a mirror download somewhere? Filefront download doesn't work :( Keeps downloading to somewhere around 15MB (or less) and then suddenly 'completes', obviously corrupted.

He's right. File font corrupted the download. I managed to get up to 50% percent when it decided everything was done.

Pohlmann

Aug 09, 2009, 08:23 AM

me 2 :(((

Hawkwood

Aug 09, 2009, 08:23 AM

He's right. File font corrupted the download. I managed to get up to 50% percent when it decided everything was done.
I've been more lucky (or have a better connection), I get to around 40-48.3 MB before Filefront decides the download is finished. Last time I even managed to get to 49.3 MB.

Castar

Aug 09, 2009, 08:26 AM

Seems like filefront server is unstable. If you try to redownload immediately after a "complete" download, you're likely to get an errorscreen because of a failed connection.

And 49.3? Damn that must've been frustrating :D

cyther

Aug 09, 2009, 08:27 AM

I'm getting this too. Only reaches 20 MB. Got 49 of it my first time but after that I rarely get to 20 MB.

VSPavlov

Aug 09, 2009, 08:50 AM

Guys, just download it with Download Master or FlashGet, not by browser.

ori

Aug 09, 2009, 09:00 AM

it took me multiple tries to download a non-corrupted file - but now that I have I uploaded it to rapidshare:

Download it here (http://rapidshare.com/files/265454956/FFPlus_Patch_E.exe.html)

Castar

Aug 09, 2009, 11:17 AM

A hero saves the day! Many thanks :-)

KillerClowns

Aug 09, 2009, 12:10 PM

*Ahem.* Rapidshare download limit reached...
EDIT: Oh, and it's awesome to see it's finally here! I think I might have to try a Jotnar game now...

Nessuno

Aug 09, 2009, 12:54 PM

KillerClowns, here you are:
http://rapidshare.com/files/265525766/FFPlus_Patch_E.exe

Just downloaded the mod and haven't tried it yet, but I bet I'll like it. So thank you Valkrionn and others for your effort. :goodjob:

darkarrow56

Aug 09, 2009, 07:05 PM

YYYYYYEEEEEESSSSSSSSS finally i can stop playing as scions all the time....btw did yall fix the part of scions get +2hammer and gold on city ruins i never understood that thxs
edit ... i downloaded it installed it and corrupted off of rapidshare and its 49.9....

Valkrionn

Aug 09, 2009, 09:06 PM

Ugh. Not using them again. I'm not at my comp just now, but later tonight I'll move it to WePlayCiv.

As for the Scion production buffs, those have always been there. I see no reason to remove them.

Valkrionn

Aug 09, 2009, 11:34 PM

Alright, moved the download to WePlayCiv. Same basic format as CivFanatics, but unlimited upload sizes... Should work nicely.

Went ahead and updated the download to include the quickfix, as well.... If you already have the mod there's nothing new, if you don't there's one less step.

Imrahil66

Aug 10, 2009, 03:14 AM

hello,

is Honors Arcane mastery modmod inside?

Valkrionn

Aug 10, 2009, 03:50 PM

Not yet. I'm going to include it, but first I need to think of ways to include the other manas... Ice, Force, Creation, and Dimensional aren't included in his mod.

Valkrionn

Aug 11, 2009, 11:07 PM

There's a new 'addon' attached to the first post, Vitalize 2.0. Basically, Odalrick's Vitalize code... Vastly improves Vitalize, and makes it desirable even though Spring/Scorch can now essentially upgrade/downgrade all terrain. For full details, go here.

One warning: Not entirely sure it'll work correctly, I just copied/pasted Odalrick's python. There are a few methods he used I'm not too familiar with, so if I have to do anything more I'll have to write it from scratch, or bug him with questions. :p

Expect to see more addons like this... They're a good way test out any future changes, and get them reasonably balanced without annoying those who don't want to be testers. ;) The next ones will most likely be modular, however, so there won't be many downloads... Even python can be done 'modularly'... All you need for that is to get the people in charge of the main mod to include your code, with a check for a spell/building/unit/whatever that you add. Since we're the ones in charge of the code, that's rather easy. :p

odalrick

Aug 12, 2009, 09:34 AM

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 01:25 PM

Ah, I see what you're talking about with PythonExtensions... Like I said, never used that format so I didn't think about it. :lol:

I did change your method a bit... Wasteland 'improves' to Desert first. Have to remove the taint, THEN you can improve the land. :goodjob:

New upload attached to the first post.

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 03:47 PM

A few weeks ago, Vermicious made a large tweak to the improvement system. As much as I liked it, I had decided to hold off on including it until I can play with it myself... But after thinking about it a bit more, I decided it would make perfect module fodder. This way, people who would like to play with it, can, and those who don't want to until it's a finished product, don't have to. Keep in mind, this WILL be a part of FFPlus eventually. It's a module for now due to balance concerns.

The next few posts will have a VERY comprehensive list of what each improvement does now... I can't fit them in one post due to image limits, so please refrain from posting until I'm done. ;)

ALL resources that an improvement grants yields to can, and will, be discovered by that improvement... All have a discoverrand of 2500, which is 4 times the FfH value for mines. This has already been used for the Dwarven Mines/ Jotnar Sea Farms/ Yaranga, so I don't think you'll end up with a resource on every tile. Also, no resource should be discovered on a tile where it could not naturally be found. I *believe* that civ-specific resources won't be discovered by invalid civs, not sure on this part though.

Now, for the list.

Yaranga

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Tech Yield -

Animal Handling -

1 :food:

Bonus Yields -

Bison

2 :food:

Arctic Deer

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Ivory

2 :hammers:

Fur

2 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Ice, Tundra

Special Features

Does not remove Forest.

Fishing Boats

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food:

Tech Yield -

Optics -

1 :commerce:

Bonus Yields -

Fish

2 :food:

Clam

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Crab

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Shrimp

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Whale

2 :hammers:

Pearl

2 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Coast

Whaling Boats

Yields

Base Yield -

2 :food:

Bonus Yields -

Fish

2 :food:

Clam

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Crab

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Shrimp

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Pearl

2 :hammers:

Whale

2 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Ocean

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 03:48 PM

Farm

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food:

Tech Yield -

Sanitation -

1 :food:

Irrigated Yield -

1 :food:

Bonus Yields -

Corn

2 :food:

Rice

2 :food:

Wheat

2 :food:

Requirements

Terrain -

Grass, Plains, Ice, Tundra

Prereq Nature Yields -

1 :food:

Other -

Requires Irrigation
Fresh Water makes valid

Special Features

Carries Irrigation.

Plantation

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :commerce:

Irrigated Yield -

1 :commerce:

Bonus Yields -

Bannana

2 :food:

Gulagarm

2 :food:

Sugar

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Dye

2 :commerce:

Incense

2 :commerce:

Silk

2 :commerce:

Cotton

2 :commerce:

Razorweed

2 :commerce:

Reagents

2 :hammers:

Requirements

Terrain -

Grass, Plains, Ice, Tundra

Other -

Requires Irrigation
Fresh Water makes valid

Special Features

Carries Irrigation.

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 03:49 PM

Pasture

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Bonus Yields -

Pig

2 :food:

Cow

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Bison

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Sheep

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Toad

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Horse

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Camel

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Nightmare

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Grass, Plains, Ice, Tundra

Camp

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food:

Bonus Yields -

Deer

2 :food:

Arctic Deer

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Ivory

2 :hammers:

Fur

2 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Marsh

Features -

Forest, New Forest, Ancient Forest, Jungle

Cottage

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Grass, Plains, Tundra, Ice, Wasteland, Broken Lands, Fields of Perdition
Fresh Water makes valid.

Special Features

Upgrades to Hamlet in 10 turns.

Hamlet

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :hammers: 2 :commerce:

Special Features

Upgrades to Village in 20 turns.

Village

Yields

Base Yield -

2 :hammers: 2 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Taxation -

1 :commerce:

Special Features

Upgrades to Town in 40 turns.

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 03:51 PM

Town

Yields

Base Yield -

2 :hammers: 3 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Taxation -

1 :commerce:

Special Features

Upgrades to Enclave in 60 turns.

Enclave

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food: 2 :hammers: 4 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Taxation -

1 :commerce:

Special Features

Kuriotates Only

Watermill

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food: 1 :hammers:

Tech Yield -

Engineering -

1 :food: 2 :hammers:

Requirements

Riverside makes valid
Requires Flatlands
Requires Riverside

Windmill

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Engineering -

1 :food: 1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Requirements

Hills make valid

Special Features

Carries Irrigation

Winery

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :food: 1 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Engineering -

1 :food: 2 :hammers:

Bonus Yields -

Wine

2 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Grass, Plains

Special Features

Carries Irrigation

Workshop

Yields

Base Yield -

-1 :food:, +3 :hammers:

Tech Yield -

Guilds -

1 :hammers:

Machinery -

1 :hammers:

Requirements

Terrain -

Grass, Plains, Tundra, Ice, Desert, Marsh, Wasteland, Shallows, Fields of Perdition, Broken Lands

Prereq Nature Yields -

1 :food:

Requires Flatlands

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 03:51 PM

Quarry

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Guilds -

1 :hammers:

Construction -

1 :hammers:

Bonus Yields -

Marble

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Sheut Stone

2 :hammers:

Patrian Artifacts

5 :commerce:

Requirements

Terrain -

Grass, Plains, Tundra, Desert, Wasteland, Fields of Perdition, Broken Lands

Hills make valid

Lumbermill

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :hammers:

Riverside Yield -

1 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Optics -

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Construction -

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Requirements

Features -

Forest, New Forest, Ancient Forest, Jungle

Mine

Yields

Base Yield -

2 :hammers:

Tech Yield -

Blasting Powder -

1 :hammers:

Bonus Yields -

Mushrooms

2 :food:

Copper

2 :hammers:

Iron

4 :hammers:

Mithril

5 :hammers:

Gunpowder

2 :hammers: 2 :commerce:

Gems

-2 :hammers:, +6 :commerce:

Gold

-2 :hammers:, +6 :commerce:

Requirements

Hills make valid

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 04:00 PM

Alright, that should be about it... Feel free to post away. :lol: It's attached to the first post now.

As you can see, each improvement should have a different job, and each resource that improvement uses will (for the most part) have different yields.

A few balance concerns -

Civ-specific resources, namely Pearls, Camel, and Patrian Artifacts. I hope they won't spawn for those who can't see them, but somehow I think they will... Not sure what to do there.
Base Resources yields. We may end up having to remove those entirely, and have the entire bonus be attached to the improvement... As you can build them from the start, that's not such a big deal.

Edit: Woops, forgot to mention installation: Extract into the Assets/Modules/NormalModules folder.

Breez

Aug 12, 2009, 04:07 PM

Breez

Aug 12, 2009, 04:12 PM

Lumbermill

Yields

Base Yield -

1 :hammers:

Riverside Yield -

1 :commerce:

Tech Yield -

Optics -

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Construction -

1 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

Requirements

Features -

Forest, New Forest, Ancient Forest, Jungle

I am Reading this right?

Forrest = 1:food: 2:hammers:
Forrest + Lumber Mill = 1:food: 3:hammers:
Forrest + Lumber Mill + Riverside = 1:food: 3:hammers: 1 :commerce:
Forrest + Lumber Mill + Riverside + Construction = 1:food: 4:hammers: 2 :commerce:
Forrest + Lumber Mill + Riverside + Construction + Optics = 1:food: 5:hammers: 3 :commerce:

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 04:16 PM

Call me dense...

But how is this different than normal?

I sure don't have those all memorized but isn't that the same thing we have now?

Or is the change that you can build Pasture on a Plains with no resource and get a chance of Horses popping up or a Farm would have a chance of Corn appearing?

(we SO need a few Wind/Water mill resources!)

The change on a lot of them, is the resources, and the fact that they can be built without the resource. The ones most affected are Fishing Boats/Winery/Plantation/Quarry/Pasture... The ones that used to require a resource to be built. Also, town yields changed considerably. Hammers/Commerce, rather than just Commerce.

The other major change is that they can discover resources, like you said.

I am Reading this right?

Forrest = 1:food: 2:hammers:
Forrest + Lumber Mill = 1:food: 3:hammers:
Forrest + Lumber Mill + Riverside = 1:food: 3:hammers: 1 :commerce:
Forrest + Lumber Mill + Riverside + Construction = 1:food: 4:hammers: 2 :commerce:
Forrest + Lumber Mill + Riverside + Construction + Optics = 1:food: 5:hammers: 3 :commerce:

Yes... Yes you are. Lumbermill/Watermill/Windmill/Workshop are stronger BY THEMSELVES than the other improvements... But the other improvements can find resources.

far_wanderer

Aug 12, 2009, 04:20 PM

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 04:29 PM

I like the looks of the new system a lot, and I really only have a few minor questions:
1 - Everything appears to have been very carefully balanced so that each resource gives the same amount of bonus yields except for Patrian Artifacts and Mines. Why the exception?
2 - Does Earth mana raise the chance of discovering all resources or just mine resources? If it's everything, that might be a better effect for Creation mana.
3 - Is Industry gone?
4 - I'd suggest moving corn to 1 :food: 1 :commerce: just to add a little variety to farms.

Patrian Artifacts already had that yield, as did all the metals attached to the Mines. They may have to be reduced though... It's things like that that made me release it as a module. :p
It should be everything, but I'm not actually sure... I'd have to look at it.
Nope. May end up having to either remove it, reduce it's bonuses, or reduce the yields on the improvements it affects.
I thought that myself actually, but I was trying to decide which one.... All three resources can be fermented, after all. :lol:

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 04:45 PM

Thought I should mention... A txt file containing the list I posted is included in the download. Of course, it's where I wrote up the changes, so it's formatted to produce what you see in those posts. :lol:

Vermicious Knid

Aug 12, 2009, 05:10 PM

Vermicious Knid

Aug 12, 2009, 05:16 PM

Patrian Artifacts already had that yield, as did all the metals attached to the Mines. They may have to be reduced though... It's things like that that made me release it as a module. :p
It should be everything, but I'm not actually sure... I'd have to look at it.
Nope. May end up having to either remove it, reduce it's bonuses, or reduce the yields on the improvements it affects.
I thought that myself actually, but I was trying to decide which one.... All three resources can be fermented, after all. :lol:

To be honest I wasn't sure how to balance the metals, so I didn't touch. Patrian artifacts I left because they are in essence a feature of the Scion civ...they don't need to be balanced with other resources.

Metals...tough. I don't want to nerf them too heavily. I'll look again when I'm back home.

odalrick

Aug 12, 2009, 05:53 PM

Wineries carry irrigation and can be built on hills... Good. I was going to suggest Windmills carries irrigation, just so there is a way to ferry water across those hills. It's strange, you can carry a single freshwater oasis to irrigate an entire continent, but one little molehill and you're stuffed.

One thing I like from normal civ is the way gold and gems completely change the nature of an improvement. So I wouldn't mind a few more resources like that. The only fitting one that comes to mind is Mushrooms, which would sort of make mines a box of chocolates.

The base yield for resources needs to stay. There is room to shave off a little from the improved bonus, after all the improved bonus also provides a nationwide benefit.

Also, please allow us to eat horses. Just a small bonus from the Smoke-house or something.

On a related note, will you be reviewing guilds and buildings as well?

Will mana nodes be getting a similar facelift? They don't need it, but it would be nice.

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 07:08 PM

Civ-specific resources will not spawn except for the proper civs. I've thoroughly verified that.

Base resource yields just need rebalancing. Not too tricky, really.

Well, that's a relief. :lol: I was worried we'd have to make civ-specific improvements there...

Looks to me like resources that are revealed by a tech, require that tech to be discovered. Which should mean Iron and Mithril won't be popping up early on... So the high yields they have should be fine actually.

Wineries carry irrigation and can be built on hills... Good. I was going to suggest Windmills carries irrigation, just so there is a way to ferry water across those hills. It's strange, you can carry a single freshwater oasis to irrigate an entire continent, but one little molehill and you're stuffed.

One thing I like from normal civ is the way gold and gems completely change the nature of an improvement. So I wouldn't mind a few more resources like that. The only fitting one that comes to mind is Mushrooms, which would sort of make mines a box of chocolates.

The base yield for resources needs to stay. There is room to shave off a little from the improved bonus, after all the improved bonus also provides a nationwide benefit.

Also, please allow us to eat horses. Just a small bonus from the Smoke-house or something.

On a related note, will you be reviewing guilds and buildings as well?

Will mana nodes be getting a similar facelift? They don't need it, but it would be nice.

Yeah, irrigation can be carried over hills. With Vermicious's changes, every tile can be improved, and can be done so in many different ways. It's the main reason I like them. :lol:

As for resources changing improvements, whales and reagents do so for Fishing Boats and Plantations, respectively. I wouldn't mind upping the unusual yields, at the cost of the normal yields however. Same way Gold/Gems are setup.

Eating Horses, huh... I can do that. :lol: Need to add Bison to those buildings as well, I think... Believe I forgot to. While on this subject, has anyone ever actually ate Horse meat? I've had Buffalo (Almost the same as Bison :lol:), which is amazing, but never Horse... Not sure I could make myself try it either.

Also while on that subject, any other resources need to be added to buildings/guilds?

As for Mana yields... I believe I gave them small yields when I did Wild Mana? Might have removed them since then... If I have, I'll add them back. Mostly 1 yield buffs, but better than nothing.

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 07:13 PM

Actually... We may want to add 'carries irrigation' to windmills as well. Gives you another choice for the job, and afterall, Windmills have been used for that pretty regularly... Just look at the Netherlands.

odalrick

Aug 12, 2009, 07:19 PM

While on this subject, has anyone ever actually ate Horse meat?

Yes. It not very different from pork, but it looks very tasty. It's a dark reddish-brown meat.

Actually... We may want to add 'carries irrigation' to windmills as well. Gives you another choice for the job, and afterall, Windmills have been used for that pretty regularly... Just look at the Netherlands.

The Netherlands aren't very hilly though, are they? More like... flat... with a tendency towards... sea-floorish...

Valkrionn

Aug 12, 2009, 07:50 PM

You are a braver man than I. :lol: I just don't think I could eat a horse... Would be almost like eating a dog. Which yes, is a western attitude... And a hypocritical one at that seeing as I'll eat pork, and they're actually a bit smarter than your average dog.

The Dutch use a system of dikes to block of tracts of land, and pump the water out... Back when they first started they used windmills. They're still all over the place. :lol:

readercolin

Aug 13, 2009, 10:42 AM

Opera

Aug 13, 2009, 10:57 AM

I think Sheep should be 1:food: and 1:commerce: instead of 2:food:. Let the pigs get all the credits for food!

[to_xp]Gekko

Aug 13, 2009, 12:20 PM

am I the only one who considers 2C more or less equal to 1H/F instead of a 1=1 ratio? :D

Valkrionn

Aug 13, 2009, 12:27 PM

interesting changes. I know that at least the farm ones were already in orbis, and it will be nice to improve the rest of the territory however I want. A question though - why the changes to the towns? Was it because adding in the ability to get resources from everything else made them a bit underpowered? And why then did you decide to add hammers instead of commerce?

-Colin

AFAIK, the town changes were a combination of the fact that they have no resources, and that Plantations are a heavy commerce improvement. This way, all improvements are worthwhile.

I think Sheep should be 1:food: and 1:commerce: instead of 2:food:. Let the pigs get all the credits for food!

Hmm... I could see that. Not really interfering with Toads, as they're different terrain sets. I'll make the change.

Gekko;8359618']am I the only one who considers 2C more or less equal to 1H/F instead of a 1=1 ratio? :D

I don't know here... I'd be uncomfortable making that change unless I could actually play it myself. Which should be soon. :lol:

Vermicious Knid

Aug 13, 2009, 12:59 PM

AFAIK, the town changes were a combination of the fact that they have no resources, and that Plantations are a heavy commerce improvement. This way, all improvements are worthwhile.

Bingo. Also, in the scary place we call reality towns are centers of manufacturing and commercial enterprises. :D

jacktannery

Aug 13, 2009, 01:51 PM

Playing Malakim for the first time in a while, and I can't build anything (except caravan trails) on floodplains. Is this an intentional change? I just downloaded the new improvements Mod, so perhaps it was changed with that? Also, the Bedouin improvements aren't listed on your new improvements list - have these been removed?

Edit: did some experimenting, and it is just the Malakim (whether using a bedouin worker or an unconverted worker). Other civs can build improvements on these.

If this is a balance mechanism, it is pretty severe (esp with the new improvement system) if the Malakim start on a flood-plain heavy area, as they tend to.

Valkrionn

Aug 13, 2009, 01:54 PM

Playing Malakim for the first time in a while, and I can't build anything (except caravan trails) on floodplains. Is this an intentional change? I just downloaded the new improvements Mod, so perhaps it was changed with that? Also, the Bedouin improvements aren't listed on your new improvements list - have these been removed?

Second complaint now about that... I have no idea what would cause that change. Floodplains should not affect improvements at all, aside from the Bedouin Sit.

Bedouin improvements weren't listed, because they weren't changed. They're exactly as they have been since Malakim+.

Valkrionn

Aug 13, 2009, 03:59 PM

And, yet another module... Albeit with a rather uninspiring name. :p

KelpModule:

Introduces the aquatic feature, Kelp. It can be found in Coastal tiles, granting 1 :food: at the cost of a movement decrease. Actual stats are as follows:

1 :food:
Double Movement Cost
+10% :health:
+0.5 :) with Guardians of Nature

All aquatic resources have been tweaked to allow them to spawn in Kelp.
I included FFPlusContinent, a tweaked version of Opera's OrbisContient... Which is itself a tweak of ErebusContient. :lol: This mapscript allows both Kelp and Haunted Lands to spawn on the map... This is the only non-Firaxis mapscript that will work with Kelp atm.

One note on installation: You can't simply extract this one into your modules folder. Extract it, and then copy the Kelp folder into your Modules/NormalModules folder, and the Mapscript into whichever map folder you prefer.

I also updated the ImprovementTweak module with two small tweaks:

Windmills carry irrigation.
Sheep provide 1 :food: 1 :commerce: for Pastures, rather than 2 :food:

I updated the Improvement list to contain the new information.

Breez

Aug 13, 2009, 04:30 PM

Nice I been wanting kelp!

Merddyn

Aug 13, 2009, 04:56 PM

Hrm... The list of changes says that Reagents give +2 production, instead of the usual +2 commerce (I'm guessing that's in addition to the +1 for plantations)... However, the yield info display says that a plantation on the reagents will add +1 food, +2 production, and +3 commerce. I think that might be a problem. ^^;;

ori

Aug 13, 2009, 07:52 PM

the Kelp module crashes my game during map creation :sad:
no errors in the logs that I can see - only a windows crash report that says cvgamecoredll.dll crashed...
when I remove it and leave your other modules in there it works...

Valkrionn

Aug 14, 2009, 02:44 AM

Damn, there may be a DLL block against aquatic features... If so, I'll have to pull the module for now. Not set up for the DLL atm.

As for the Reagents thing... I'm tempted to say it's a combination of features. Was it a riverside jungle tile, by any chance? Jungle removes food, so you'd gain one from removing it... And the commerce would be the river and the improvement itself.

Jheral

Aug 14, 2009, 02:53 AM

As for the Reagents thing... I'm tempted to say it's a combination of features. Was it a riverside jungle tile, by any chance? Jungle removes food, so you'd gain one from removing it... And the commerce would be the river and the improvement itself.

Actually, no. Check the civilopedia entry for the plantation; it gets +1/+2/+2 from the reagents, putting the end result at +1:food:/+2:hammers:/+3:commerce: (plus 1:commerce: from irrigation), before terrain and features are added into the mix. Looking at the XML files, it looks as if it combined the yields from the ImprovementTweaks file's entry with the ones in the main file's entry.

EDIT: After some quick tests, I've come to the conclusion that if a value is set to '0' in the module's file, it doesn't use that value, but defaults to the original value set in the main file. Sounds more than a little uncomfortable, that...

Valkrionn

Aug 14, 2009, 03:07 AM

Ah, that's rather bad. I thought the fact that I included the full yield list, with old yields changed to a 0, would remove them... Apparently not. Will try to fix it, may have to give it negative yields to balance it out.

Jheral

Aug 14, 2009, 03:13 AM

That wouldn't help, I'm afraid. Negative values are, unlike 0, still values, and as such would override the default values. My guess is that you are limited to either including the changes in the main mod, or to make duplicates of the improvements and change the build orders to point to them instead.

Valkrionn

Aug 14, 2009, 03:27 AM

Good catch... Looks like I'll just have to make it an addon rather than module then.

[to_xp]Gekko

Aug 14, 2009, 03:38 AM

why not allow windmills to be built on flatlands? I see no reason why this should be impossible :D

Jheral

Aug 14, 2009, 03:49 AM

EDIT: Removed since it's not at all relevant anymore.

Opera

Aug 14, 2009, 04:09 AM

Isn't there a bForceOverwrite tag you could use to force 0 yield?

Jheral

Aug 14, 2009, 04:22 AM

More than I knew. But there is one, and it does work. And now I feel like an idiot. Ah, well...

Anyway, thanks for correcting me, Opera.

Opera

Aug 14, 2009, 04:53 AM

Well, I guess it's not obvious for everyone. There's a thread on how to do modules that explains the use of bForceOverwrite. There (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292532#MAKE_MODULE) it is :)

xienwolf

Aug 14, 2009, 10:13 AM

Yeah, to REMOVE a value you have to use ForceOverwrite and replace the entire set of XML (well, all non-default values).

I'm not sure if there is a DLL block for features on ocean, but I am inclined to say that there is NOT one since you can worldbuilder trees into the ocean.

One thing which you cannot do modularly is art, though I fail to recall precisely at what point a file becomes an art file, I would imagine the entire XML/Art folder, but I swear I saw some people set up ArtDefines for new units in modules, so that can't be 100% correct, I'll have to get into the code next weekend to document the precise limitations. But I would say for the Kelp try defining the art for the feature in the main mod, then actually using the feature only through module. Might work.

Valkrionn

Aug 14, 2009, 03:56 PM

Gekko;8361825']why not allow windmills to be built on flatlands? I see no reason why this should be impossible :D

Because that's what the other mills are for. ;)

Isn't there a bForceOverwrite tag you could use to force 0 yield?

Woops, forgot about that... I feel smart. :p

Yeah, to REMOVE a value you have to use ForceOverwrite and replace the entire set of XML (well, all non-default values).

I'm not sure if there is a DLL block for features on ocean, but I am inclined to say that there is NOT one since you can worldbuilder trees into the ocean.

One thing which you cannot do modularly is art, though I fail to recall precisely at what point a file becomes an art file, I would imagine the entire XML/Art folder, but I swear I saw some people set up ArtDefines for new units in modules, so that can't be 100% correct, I'll have to get into the code next weekend to document the precise limitations. But I would say for the Kelp try defining the art for the feature in the main mod, then actually using the feature only through module. Might work.

Maybe you can't have the artfolder itself in a module anymore? I know you used to be able to...

I'll try moving the art/artdefines out of the module, see if they work. Having them in the main mod won't affect anything afterall.

readercolin

Aug 14, 2009, 10:38 PM

I tried adding the improvements change module (extracted the file within improvement tweaks 1.1 named "Improvement Tweaks" to the normal modules folder - placed it right next to bannor chain of command). However, when I tried adding it, it allowed me to play the game just like normally, but it didn't have the module loaded. I tried uninstalling it and reinstalling it (aka, delete, followed by placing it back in), but it still refused to work for me.

What am I doing wrong?

-Colin

Valkrionn

Aug 15, 2009, 05:01 PM

Updated the improvement tweaks module... All improvements now contain the <bForceOverwrite> tag, so the yields should function correctly.

Valkrionn

Aug 15, 2009, 06:14 PM

Well. I are intelligent. :wallbash:

As usual when I borrow things from Orbis, I copied a pre-existing artdef, and changed it's info to match that of the Kelp feature. In this case, jungle. This time, though, I changed everything..... Except for the NAME of the freaking ArtDef. Had the game actually loaded, your jungle would have appeared to be kelp. :lol:

Uploaded a new version, same installation instructions. Hopefully, this one will work... If not, then there is definitely something wrong with Modular art.

Valkrionn

Aug 15, 2009, 07:12 PM

So... The Hamstalfar.

I'd love to include them in some way, mostly because I find it entertaining... But also because it has some potential. Tarq's background text says they took in a group of Ljos, but I could easily see it being a core of Ljos, with small groups of Svarts... Meaning a combination of the Svartalfar recon, and Ljosalfar archery. With Hamster overlords. :lol:

Anyone have suggestions on how to go about doing it? What units/buildings should be kept? Should they focus on FoL like normal elves, or would Hamsters prefer a different religion? (OO would be funny as hell.... :p).

BenjaminEmbarec

Aug 15, 2009, 10:21 PM

It should be obvious. They worship the Great Fuzzy Elder Lords. :P

Valkrionn

Aug 15, 2009, 11:00 PM

Hmm... Not sure if you mean OO, or agnostic there. :lol:

I could easily see making them agnostic in return for the best of both elven civs.

darkarrow56

Aug 16, 2009, 11:03 AM

umm just a quick question but the mechanos factory when i looked at it in game the factory with power gave 35 yet i had 6 refined mana so it should have gave 60 right ?

Valkrionn

Aug 16, 2009, 11:58 AM

You should have had 60. I may have missed a tag there, looks like it's not counting the extra resources.

Opera

Aug 16, 2009, 12:12 PM

What would you say about bringing Stone resource back? I'm thinking of doing, but I'm unsure. I like it but in the other hand, it's a silly resource.

Sisonpyh

Aug 16, 2009, 12:20 PM

Is the plus modmod save game compatible with fall further games?

odalrick

Aug 16, 2009, 12:25 PM

umm just a quick question but the mechanos factory when i looked at it in game the factory with power gave 35 yet i had 6 refined mana so it should have gave 60 right ?

I think the mana is counted separately. It should say +30% from resources as well.

Tarquelne

Aug 16, 2009, 12:37 PM

Hamsters prefer a different religion? (OO would be funny as hell.... :p).

Most hamsters are Presbyterian. What that would translate to, in game, I don't know.

Valkrionn

Aug 16, 2009, 12:44 PM

What would you say about bringing Stone resource back? I'm thinking of doing, but I'm unsure. I like it but in the other hand, it's a silly resource.

That's one I'd like to add. Mostly as a building resource.

Is the plus modmod save game compatible with fall further games?

Sadly, no. There have been far too many things changed for savegames to work across the two.

I think the mana is counted separately. It should say +30% from resources as well.

The main issue ATM is I don't know if it's a display problem, or an actual problem... Does it still give a 5% bonus to each refined mana?

Valkrionn

Aug 16, 2009, 12:59 PM

Most hamsters are Presbyterian. What that would translate to, in game, I don't know.

Well... That's an interesting fact. I suppose that could translate to the Order... Although OO would still be a decent second. :lol:

2Hydroclopse

Aug 16, 2009, 06:29 PM

"An error occurred while trying to read the source file:
The source file "\Mods\Fall Further 051\*" does not exist.

Click Retry to try again...blahblahblah"

Fall Further is installed. I tried pointing the install setup to install at different locations but each install failed to to this error. Any tips on how to get FF+ working would be thanked most graciously.

Vista64 if that might be related -though Fall Further runs for me peachy-.

Edit: I'm gonna try to install it without the FF base, then drag a copy of the base onto FF+ and tell it to replace none, and see how it works.

Valkrionn

Aug 16, 2009, 06:35 PM

If it's not reading it, copy FF, rename it Fall Further Plus, and then run the installer. When it comes up with the error, tell it to continue the install anyway.

2Hydroclopse

Aug 16, 2009, 06:41 PM

I guess I did it backwards, but other than the desktop shortcut pointing to the wrong place, it launches and so far seems to work -and now I guess I'll test game-play-.

Edit: Flavor start seems to be check-able still as an option at game start -log says it is always on?-

Valkrionn

Aug 16, 2009, 07:43 PM

You can check it off, but when you install it will be on. Was initially going to be invisible, but had some complaints about that.

razzach

Aug 16, 2009, 11:55 PM

Why is the Sidar weakened? When I checked, their Palace gives extra yields only to Engineers, not to Bards, Scientists, etc...

Valkrionn

Aug 17, 2009, 11:50 AM

Why is the Sidar weakened? When I checked, their Palace gives extra yields only to Engineers, not to Bards, Scientists, etc...

I don't believe I changed that... So I don't know. :lol:

Darksaber1

Aug 17, 2009, 01:40 PM

Do the addons break saved games?

Valkrionn

Aug 17, 2009, 02:18 PM

Hmm... I'm not sure. I would expect the Kelp Module to, but other than that I don't think so...

cyther

Aug 17, 2009, 08:55 PM

Do your DLL source hanging around. I thought that I had it in the DLL I made for Fallen Ages but it appears that I don't.

Am I just missing it or was it not included in the newest patch?