OK, onto the next World Wonder, the Oracle.

Not really the next that's a vailable but pretty cheap to build and has good synergy with Stonehenge, so we will discuss this next

The Oracle's use is simple, you get a Free Tech and what's not to like about that! It requires the knowledge priesthood, so the techpath is a little more difficult at higher levels. It get's a 100% production bonus with marble.

Comments to start

1) Since it requires the mysticism/meditation or polytheism/priesthood line it's not the easiest early tech to get from an AI. But if you found an early religion, your far along.

2) Hyuna Capac has a special advantage here as he's the only IND leader to start with mysticism!

3) As with Stonehenge it provides Greaterson Points, thus if you manage both you can get Prophets alot faster! Even if there is no steonhenge the chances of getting a shrined religion are pretty high (see below on techs).

4) But the real la Creme is your free tech! Now of course some people get outrageous things (someone nailed education once :eek:) so I am going to list the most common choices, at least what I have managed (all proven in at least one RPC game of mine)

A) Metal Casting: Usully the most expensive (pottery/Bronze Working) and the one you want if IND for the fast and early forges. It also allows first crack at the Colossus which is almost impossible to lose.

B) Code of Laws: To found a religion (to shrine with your prophet), access Caste for an early SE, and courthouses for the economy! If you go this route there is also good synergy with the pyramids by adopting caste and representation very early.

C) Monarchy: Simple yet eliminates alot of unhappiness by adopting Heritary Rule and opens up a powerful defensive tech in Fuedalism. Beware of Sitting Bull if he ever get's this combo.

D) Theology: Founding another religion (and again a possible shrined one). You also get first crack at building the AP for diplomacy and production bonus to temples/monestaries, plus you open the door for theocracy and some powerful early promoted units. Religion, war, diplomacy, production, take your pick!

E) Fuedalism: Very tricky but doable (see my Isabella RPC for a good illustration). You need both writing and Monarchy, with Monarchy being a rather difficult tech to get early enough!. Still getting Vassalage and Longbows so early can be a game altering event!

Now there are other goos techs to get such as Currency, Math, Alphabet, Aesthetics etc... But these are the 5 I get the most.

5) Finally, this wonder becomes obsolete as soon as it's built! This and The Taj Majal are the most worthless wonders to ever capture from an AI as they have no uses after the immediate benefit.

OK, let's here everyone's opion!

Do you still go after the Oracle?

What techs do you take?

Civil service should also be mentioned. It is gotten frequently on all sorts of very fast play (or just starts with gems and/or gold in the bfc). It is probably doable up to emperor even without mining resources (though it might require an early academy). Up to monarch it is possible to get education pretty consistently with a philo leader with 2+ mining resources in the bfc (not something that happens a lot). It is also possible to get construction/currency/alpha/machinery with oracle all having some merit or other.

I love settling a city on marble then chopping out the oracle there, but most often it just gets built in the capital as it normally goes very early.

Most often the sacrefices in terms of early development you have to go through to get oracle are too great to consider it. Sometimes it is a great build and it is important to identify in what cases that is.

Construction is a simple tech (requires math only) and I will add. Likewise I guess Calandar if you have alot of plantation resources.

Civil Service is still doable in BTS but was nerfed starting in warlords since. I think we now need Math and CoL????

Machinery would require a Great Merchant to bulb Metal Casting, right???

Education requires theology or Civil Service, alphabet, and Paper first. A few Great Scienitsts and some timely trades are required, seams difficult without losing it to the AI.

I agree on the sacrifices required and it is definitely situational. If you have no close neighbors it may be worth diverting a little expnasion and military for a plum tech. Other times it can save a game (again the Isabella RPC was saved by getting Fuedalism for free).

Very strong wonder indeed . The "Miracle" :D
only thing is this wonder is on AI's priority list so it is hard to get if you have no Marble and not Ind (on Emperor + obviously)

I almost never go for it anymore unless I have Marble nearby.
When I do get it I usually go for Metal Casting. Or monarchy for that quick boost in Happiness.
I think I've gotten Machinery via the bulb of Metal Casting before, or something like that...

I know I got to Gunpowder really quickly (as Ottomans) with a Great Engineer/Merchant bulb strat, not sure if I built the Oracle for Metal Casting that time.

Education doesn't require alphabet... Most of the time I just research it the hard way through math -> col -> CS -> paper (often skip BW and wheel/pottery for this for example, most usable in occ). If that is doable, Machinery is obviously way easier as it just require BW pottery and MC. CS does require col and math, but if you have gems or gold and a library (and maybe an academy if you are philo) it doesn't take that long to get.

OK, I think I'll split the main article into techs "usually" obtainable for free (i will include the math based techs of currency/construction/calandar here); then those that are more difficult to get but doable such as Civil Service, machinery, Fuedalism; and then heroic efforts which includes techs others have claimed to get such as education. It's a strategy article so I want it to be realistic, yet include those lofty goals for the truely insane to try!

It is not only truly insane. It is useful for hof style min/max play. Not for everyone. But when you want to see how far you can push it, it can be fun.

Oh and another thing about oracle. In mp with tech trading on it might be possible to share the burden through alphabet to get to tech goals faster. That way CS/feud is way easier to obtain than is otherwise possible (though you'll share the spoils as well). In opposition to henge oracle's value go down when you are in teams as the tech rate is way faster hence the individual tech is worth less, also gpp points are worth less in teams (but that goes for any wonder).

I know this should probably go in the stonehenge thread but i can't be bothered to make another post. Stonehenge is very useful when you are going for very fast domination as it allows you to get those borderpops so much faster. Without henge those BC's dom victories would be a lot harder. Of course it is captured just as often as it is built.

It's not worth going for education from the Oracle on lower levels, you should get civil service from it to run bureaucracy sooner.

Civil service is definitely doable at monarch with a one city challenge.

Sure it is worth it, at least if philo. I calced on it once and in that situation I saved beakers worth roughly half of education. Of course that isn't always true. If you are fin but not phi and you have cottages as well as gold/gems CS might just be better...

True, it's not insane! So for this wonder I will catagorize techs into

Easy (MC, Mon, CoL, Alphabet, Aestheics, Theology, Math) requires early worker based techs
Moderate (Currency, Construction, Calendar) requires 1 minor early tech
Difficult (Machinery, Fuedalism, Civil Service) 1 major or 2 minor techs
Heroic (Education) Numerous advanced techs

Just a start here though.

For OCCs I will leave comments on this page but feel free to still comment on it.

As far as multi-player I rely on everyone elses comments here as I have not played them.

Regarding SH I will add the war-mongering comment on the main start guide.



I have my own opions but the purpose is a general community strategy article on wonders so I will defer the actualt article to what we agree upon.

Philosophy should go in the moderate difficulty too.

In MP, even the moderate difficulty techs are often rather hard to get.

If you capture the Oracle you still get +2 great prophet points, but that is all.

I played a HoF time victory game recently at warlord level BtS where I built all the wonders (except Mausoleum, captured from Ragnar). I took civil service from oracle in that game.

I find the Oracle most useful in conjunction with GP bulbing. Bulbing or Oracling techs to open up better ones for the other such as;

-GE or Oracle going for MC and the other getting Machinery, might be doable with a fast Forge Engineer specialist, but mostly mids specific.
-Oracling CoL to remove the most expensive requirement for the Philosophy bulb and acting as tradebait to get Alpha and Maths
-Prophet bulbing Theology to open Paper for the Oracle, I've only ever done this with Egypt but it works well if your building a lot of religious buildings where the UoS and AP become very appealing.
-Prophet bulb to Monarchy (before Writing), getting Writing and Oracling Feudalism. Again I have only gone for this as Egypt as early GP will reduce the delay in getting Writing and Priest slots mean Scientists are not quite so immediately necessary.

I got Divine Right once in a Monarch tiny map game, playing as RamsesII. It was impressive in terms of the research cost, but it was absolutely no help to my game at that point or better said as .. I wouldn't have known how to use it to an advantage.

This and The Taj Majal are the most worthless wonders to ever capture from an AI as they have no uses after the immediate benefit.

This is not entirely correct. They still contribute gpts when captured. And it's less that your opponents get, as well as less culture.

I only build Oracle if I can grab advanced flight with it.

Seriously though, some things relevant to actually building this wonder and not insane best-case scenarios:
1) Only on low difficulty levels should marble be considered when deciding whether to build Oracle. Building the quarry typically requires teching masonry and wheel, as well as 6 worker turns for the quarry, and 2+ for the necessary roads. I don't know the proper cut-off but I would estimate that above Monarch (at least) marble should be ignored.
2) Unlike most wonders, assuming you have at least a few forests, the actual build cost is less important than tech rate. You will need to be able to unlock something worth grabbing with the oracle. MC requires wheel, pottery, BW; CoL requires writing; etc. It is not uncommon to find yourself holding up the Oracle with 1 turn left so you can get the necessary techs.

I only build Oracle if I can grab advanced flight with it.

Seriously though, some things relevant to actually building this wonder and not insane best-case scenarios:
1) Only on low difficulty levels should marble be considered when deciding whether to build Oracle. Building the quarry typically requires teching masonry and wheel, as well as 6 worker turns for the quarry, and 2+ for the necessary roads. I don't know the proper cut-off but I would estimate that above Monarch (at least) marble should be ignored.
2) Unlike most wonders, assuming you have at least a few forests, the actual build cost is less important than tech rate. You will need to be able to unlock something worth grabbing with the oracle. MC requires wheel, pottery, BW; CoL requires writing; etc. It is not uncommon to find yourself holding up the Oracle with 1 turn left so you can get the necessary techs.

Very true on both counts. Getting marble hooked up for the Oracle is akin to getting stone for Stonehenge; i.e., overkill and hard to manage before the AI beats you to the wonder. Re: your other point, I have accidentally completed the Oracle too soon and ended up having to take something silly (Iron Working, etc.) with it. IMO, the cheapest tech worth taking with the Oracle is Monarchy. Having huge cities early would be a meaningful advantage from the Oracle.

I would also add that you can pop Theology with Oracle if you have researched Writing and Monotheism first. Thus you would have the choice of either CoL or Theology (since CoL just requires Writing and Priesthood), allowing you to pick your preferred civic and/or founded religion. Some people prefer to use a great prophet to lightbulb Theology, but the Oracle method allows you to skip some of the filler religious techs that need to be eliminated for lightbulbing.

Since I regularly started playing at Emperor, I rarely am in an early game position to get Priesthood. I am frankly too damned busy learning military and worker techs to expand and deal with barbarians. However, if you can snag the Great Wall and keep the AI off your back, the Oracle is feasible if you are pursuing a wonder-based strategy. Like Stonehenge, at higher difficulty levels it may be better to build the Oracle in a second or third city (with a lot of lumber) so that your capital is free to pump out units.

i can't say i often build it... normally i go for BW and alphabet/mathematics instead of the religious branch. apart from mysticism i pretty much forgo that area completely.

when i do build it, i like CoL (or currency if possible). the early courthouses and caste system are very beneficial.

I just find it funny when everyone so anal to win the Liberism race to get a free tech but too few love for the Oracle . The free tech in this early stages is so huge , it usually take you 20-30 turn to research them

I just find it funny when everyone so anal to win the Liberism race to get a free tech but too few love for the Oracle . The free tech in this early stages is so huge , it usually take you 20-30 turn to research them

The prerequisite techs needed to build the Oracle neither feed nor defend your people. Those may be more important considerations at such an early stage of the game and a lot of players don't want to take the risk.

The prerequisite techs needed to build the Oracle neither feed nor defend your people. Those may be more important considerations at such an early stage of the game and a lot of players don't want to take the risk.
It's a gamble , what about those tech Masonary and build the Mids , they still alive didnt they ? That separate good player from the bad one :lol:

I just find it funny when everyone so anal to win the Liberism race to get a free tech but too few love for the Oracle . The free tech in this early stages is so huge , it usually take you 20-30 turn to research them

Liberalism is a much more useful tech path to follow, even on the odd occasion when you don't win the race. Getting the Oracle is a much iffier proposition and the opportunity cost is much higher than with the Lib race, as you have to follow a much less useful tech path, and spend a lot of hammers which could have been turned into an earlier city in a superior location than what you wind up with even if you do manage to complete the Oracle.

I agree that when you get it it is one of the stronger wonders; however, if you fail in the attempt, the small slug of gold you get does not compensate you for the weak tech path that you had to follow in order to set up the attempt.

The Oracle's use is simple, you get a Free Tech and what's not to like about that! It requires the knowledge priesthood, so the techpath is a little more difficult at higher levels. It get's a 100% production bonus with marble.

Overall a great wonder and much more valuable than SH. At higher levels the tech path shouldn't be a problem. Simply back fill with with MC/COL, pick up Monarchy while your there then progress up Aesth/Lit > Lib beeline.

The only real issue is close neighbors and a loss of good potential city sites. Otherwise, their are too many ways to utilize The Oracle to make it quite handy.

At higher levels the tech path shouldn't be a problem. Simply back fill with with MC/COL, pick up Monarchy while your there then progress up Aesth/Lit > Lib beeline.

On deity, it is extremely hard to nab a MC slingshot unless you have a good set up for techs and plenty of chop potential. With the AI having two cities from the start it starts wonders far ealier and has such massive tech advantages that even the CoL slingshot can be a gamble, particularly if you have hunting/wheel or some other horrid starting techs. Also on deity you can run into major problems with barbs if you don't spend a good bit of early effort on either fogbusting, getting axes/chariots/archers, or taking the GW. A few of the AIs seem to beeline it so hard that even with a dedicated push, the Oracle isn't garunteed with giving up multiple expansion locations.

Backfill trading is dependant upon good trading partners, getting Shaka and Toko as your neighbors kinda nerfs the backfilling.

Still easily the third most powerful wonder of the ancient era and extremely powerful.

On deity, it is extremely hard to nab a MC slingshot unless you have a good set up for techs and plenty of chop potential. With the AI having two cities from the start it starts wonders far ealier and has such massive tech advantages that even the CoL slingshot can be a gamble, particularly if you have hunting/wheel or some other horrid starting techs.

i don't think many people play deity so that isnt much of an issue. on the other levels it can lead to a strong opening and you also have to factor in ai denial.

the Oracle isn't garunteed with giving up multiple expansion locations.

thats exaggerated. the oracle doesnt cost 200 hammers and if your industrious you can always chop it out at a new city location and put some culture in a neighbors face blocking off good land.

Backfill trading is dependant upon good trading partners, getting Shaka and Toko as your neighbors kinda nerfs the backfilling.

that happens less often than people who will trade.

Still easily the third most powerful wonder of the ancient era and extremely powerful.

this actually makes sense.

Liberalism is a much more useful tech path to follow, even on the odd occasion when you don't win the race. Getting the Oracle is a much iffier proposition and the opportunity cost is much higher than with the Lib race, as you have to follow a much less useful tech path, and spend a lot of hammers which could have been turned into an earlier city in a superior location than what you wind up with even if you do manage to complete the Oracle.

I agree that when you get it it is one of the stronger wonders; however, if you fail in the attempt, the small slug of gold you get does not compensate you for the weak tech path that you had to follow in order to set up the attempt.

Your allegation of " spending the hammer for a settler " is funny. Every wonder cost hammer, so every wonder is bad ?? Obviously if you build a wonder, you cant expand as fast, but the benefit of the wonder give you other advantage
about the tech path, not that bad. Open Mornachy and COL. Not worse than Mansonary for the mids for sure :lol:

I usually tend to go the MC route with the free tech because it leads into Machinery, giving me Crossbowmen and eventually Macemen.

Your allegation of " spending the hammer for a settler " is funny. Every wonder cost hammer, so every wonder is bad ?? Obviously if you build a wonder, you cant expand as fast, but the benefit of the wonder give you other advantage
about the tech path, not that bad. Open Mornachy and COL. Not worse than Mansonary for the mids for sure :lol:

I don't think Strategery Bush mentioned spending hammers for settlers.

Even if it cost you a full settler the Oracle is strong. On normal MC is over 700 :science: and as others have mentioned, it opens up good trade value. Also, it's not like you get an extra settler because you don't. If I make the Oracle I plan to keep expanding too. The only difference is you will settle your next city 7-8 turns sooner, nothing more. Eventually both people will hit the wall and be unable to expand further due to maintenance. Now if your playing on a tiny pangea map you could run into the issue of permanent loss of land but most people don't play those types of settings.

So which is better. Building the Oracle and receiving over 700 :science: from a free tech plus another 1,500-2,500 beakers from trade or settling one of your cities 7 turns later.

he said the hammer can turn in an early city :D

Your allegation of " spending the hammer for a settler " is funny. Every wonder cost hammer, so every wonder is bad ?? Obviously if you build a wonder, you cant expand as fast, but the benefit of the wonder give you other advantage
about the tech path, not that bad. Open Mornachy and COL. Not worse than Mansonary for the mids for sure :lol:

Every build in the game comes with an opportunity cost. What else could you have done with the hammers? Trying to build the Taj Mahal is not likely to cost you a prime city location.

The Priesthood tech path is not necessarily a bad one; however, in order to reliably get the Oracle you have to go down that path quicker, and skip some other potentially quite useful early techs.

I am not saying that you should never build the Oracle, and I don't think that my post could be construed to say that. In my current game I started with gold and a whole bunch of forest and it was an easy decision to go for the Oracle, even without Marble or Industrious. There is a huge upside, but there can be significant risk to the attempt as well.

None of the downside matters if your reaction to the AI beating you to the Oracle by one turn is to reload an autosave and whip the thing a couple of turns sooner, or if you just give up and start a new game since you only have 30 minutes invested, but if you are going to play it out, it can be a tough setback to recover from.

I used to beeline oracle when i was a noble player.

Now i ignore it 9/10 times and I play emperor.

:shrug:

Every build in the game comes with an opportunity cost. What else could you have done with the hammers? Trying to build the Taj Mahal is not likely to cost you a prime city location.

yes but it'll cost you 10+ Maceman which could be upgrade to Rifleman dozen turn later :lol:

Even if it cost you a full settler the Oracle is strong. On normal MC is over 700 :science: and as others have mentioned, it opens up good trade value. Also, it's not like you get an extra settler because you don't. If I make the Oracle I plan to keep expanding too. The only difference is you will settle your next city 7-8 turns sooner, nothing more. Eventually both people will hit the wall and be unable to expand further due to maintenance. Now if your playing on a tiny pangea map you could run into the issue of permanent loss of land but most people don't play those types of settings.

So which is better. Building the Oracle and receiving over 700 :science: from a free tech plus another 1,500-2,500 beakers from trade or settling one of your cities 7 turns later.

You have to read the situation appropriately based on difficulty. The oracle IS strong but it isn't always worth the risk.

You can get a good idea based on your start (commerce or not?) and when stonehenge/judaism are taken. Those AIs favor that path and will get oracle much sooner than otherwise.

And it isn't a "free" tech. It's the tech at the cost of hammers...usually at a very favorable conversion rate. But sometimes the extra city is actually better. You don't really want to lose something like a triple gem site or a strategic resource to the AI, do you? Besides, rare are maps where maintenance is the problem rather than running out of space, unless you're on huge or something.

I used to beeline oracle when i was a noble player.

Now i ignore it 9/10 times and I play emperor.

:shrug:

With a good bureaucracy capitol snapping something like CoL, teching or trading for monarchy/math, and getting to civil service in the BC's is pretty powerful even on emperor and immortal, and if the start is right it's not a huge gamble.

yes but it'll cost you 10+ Maceman which could be upgrade to Rifleman dozen turn later

People are crazy on these forums man and I been seen crazy stuff everywhere tonight! Say you got marble so Taj only be 350 :hammers: and dat be 5 Mace normal. Say you got 10 cities averaging 6 hammer tiles of some sort per city. With a golded aged that be 600 extra :hammers: and dat before you count in da extra :commerce: and GPP.

People are crazy on these forums man and I been seen crazy stuff everywhere tonight! Say you got marble so Taj only be 350 :hammers: and dat be 5 Mace normal. Say you got 10 cities averaging 6 hammer tiles of some sort per city. With a golded aged that be 600 extra :hammers: and dat before you count in da extra :commerce: and GPP.

No mention of the switch to nationhood to DRAFT the rifles?

People are crazy on these forums man and I been seen crazy stuff everywhere tonight! Say you got marble so Taj only be 350 :hammers: and dat be 5 Mace normal. Say you got 10 cities averaging 6 hammer tiles of some sort per city. With a golded aged that be 600 extra :hammers: and dat before you count in da extra :commerce: and GPP.
So if you dont have marble ? haha, see ?
draft ? I can draft too and you still 10 rifle less :lol:

GAs lead to more gold which can upgrade more units which have been non stop produced from an early HE city. This bypasses dependence, happiness, and loss of commerce from a higher :culture: slider and lower population. Drafting is still one of the most powerful ways to produce units, especially in a farm heavy economy but you'll do far better with the Taj than w/out.

it's good to have , but a lot of time you dont have marble, not Ind , nor a great production city. 750 hammer is a pain in the ass.

i don't think many people play deity so that isnt much of an issue. on the other levels it can lead to a strong opening and you also have to factor in ai denial.



thats exaggerated. the oracle doesnt cost 200 hammers and if your industrious you can always chop it out at a new city location and put some culture in a neighbors face blocking off good land.



that happens less often than people who will trade.



this actually makes sense.


I talked about deity because the post to which I was replying was specifically about higher difficulties. On any level it can lead to a strong opening, but it can be risky, it can come with a high opportunity cost, and is not game breaking.


The lost cities are about AI expansion and blocking out land which you can settle behind. At the timeframe where the AI might build the Oracle a settler not only can claim his own BFC, he normally can block out enough land for a second behind his culture. On the higher difficulties you either culturally fence in some backfill space or you don't tend to get to six decent cities peacefully.

Regarding trade there are several scenarios where backfill trade fails to be a good option. The first is the obvious one where the AIs simply don't trade, like Toko and Shaka under most circumstances. The next is with AIs who just don't like the alphabet path; e.g. hoping to backfill pottery with trades off the aesthetics/lit/lib line may take far too many turns to be worthwhile - you lose more :science: by waiting than self researching and improving your whip efficiency. Another common scenario is when you are alone with an unfriendly AI. Firstly, I'd skip the Oracle on this one in favor of just smacking the guy with axes(/swords) or chariots and enjoying my new large island with two caps on any difficulty but deity (which may or may not preclude getting Oracle). If you don't kill them (say due to a lack of resources) then you still won't be getting backfill trades due AI "monopoly" trading behaviour.

I'm ignoring the case of true isolation as the Oracle becomes incredibly useful for either an easy religion or an early shot at astro.



On the Taj, also don't forget that you might also be getting the OR bonus making the Taj even cheaper and are extremely likely to be getting the B bonus during most of the GA (I like to swap to nat on the last turn of it as drafting during a GA is just so detrimental) which nets you an even better return. (HR/Rep)/B/caste/OR when building the Taj -> (HR/PS)/B/caste/Theo during the GA -> (HR/PS)/Nat/slave/Theo afterwards is extremely powerful at generating huge amounts of units for a major gunpowder push.

Even if it cost you a full settler the Oracle is strong. On normal MC is over 700 and as others have mentioned, it opens up good trade value. Also, it's not like you get an extra settler because you don't. If I make the Oracle I plan to keep expanding too. The only difference is you will settle your next city 7-8 turns sooner, nothing more. Eventually both people will hit the wall and be unable to expand further due to maintenance. Now if your playing on a tiny pangea map you could run into the issue of permanent loss of land but most people don't play those types of settings.

Generally correct. Their are more relative issues with city location and land availability but even when I play a small map on Immortal I can generally squeeze in 6-8 cities and almost always have enough room to peacefully settle 8+ cities on standard.

On any level it can lead to a strong opening, but it can be risky, it can come with a high opportunity cost, and is not game breaking.

It has the potential to be. In my current Immortal game it helped me quickly get COL and run enough specialist to quickly power tech, found and academy, bulb another expensive and free tech, MC, and helped me start producing GMs for upgrades much faster:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8220350#post8220350

My favorite move on Emperor/Immortal is to use the Oracle to get Monarchy to enable vertical expansion. Unless you have multiple precious metals and/or furs or are making a run for the Pyramids, it's the fastest way to get happiness while still allowing you to research a couple of worker techs first. (OK, it's still faster than the Pyramids, but taking Monarchy from the Oracle when you're also building the Pyramids is pretty dumb, generally.) Less valuable if your CHA, obviously.

My current favorite for Oracle is Alphabet. That gets me tech trading early enough for some good brokering, plus I can usually trade for the prerequisites for Theology which I can then lightbulb when the GP arrives. That gets me the AP + a massive trade tech and usually a lead on Paper and Divine Right which gives me the three religious wonders which is a combination I like very much for spiritual leaders.

My favorite move on Emperor/Immortal is to use the Oracle to get Monarchy

I'm not really fond of that sling shot because the timing seems to be difficult. This early in the game I am still making settlers/workers/libraries/granaries and on higher levels unit maintenance adds up quick. For me, I get much better game flow and fluid transition when I get Monarchy in the Mid BCs. I like to head up to Literature first, then see if Monarchy is available for trade, then research it myself if necessary. MC/COL also offer better trade bait in my experience.

who slingshot Aesthetics ? :D

Generally correct. Their are more relative issues with city location and land availability but even when I play a small map on Immortal I can generally squeeze in 6-8 cities and almost always have enough room to peacefully settle 8+ cities on standard.



It has the potential to be. In my current Immortal game it helped me quickly get COL and run enough specialist to quickly power tech, found and academy, bulb another expensive and free tech, MC, and helped me start producing GMs for upgrades much faster:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8220350#post8220350

I wouldn't say that Oracle was game breaking there; at absolute worst you'd have not been able to afford to kill MM so early and rolled him later. Either with maces and trebs or cannons and whatever you like. Had you failed by one turn on the Oracle you could have gotten CoL pretty quick off the failure cash and been what 15-20 turns behind on your tech rate? I played that one on autopilot and it was an easy win without either MM's land or the Oracle.

who slingshot Aesthetics ? :D

It was actually discussed once which is why I included it. I cannot remember who but it was a regular poster, so I included it as a possible Oracle target.

I played that one on autopilot and it was an easy win without either MM's land or the Oracle.

Be that as it may my launch date will be several hundred years before yours ^^. Results speak louder than words.

Be that as it may my launch date will be several hundred years before yours ^^. Results speak louder than words.

Got a save before you finished the Oracle? The oracle got you 200 :beakers: more than you'd have gotten from failure cash. How many turns of research was that for you? 4? Depending upon your economic setup it would have taken you what 8 -12 turns to leverage all that back out into science? Of course pre-market we are only talking about 162.5 :science:.

You are a good enough player you'd still have won the game handily if you had failed on the Oracle given your overall position. Frankly I doubt that you'd have been unable to roll MM if you failed to slighshot CoL, the failure cash would let you go longer without CHs and once you have all that land with no other decent teching AIs in the game you'd have finished the game likely only 20 turns later.

Actually, I was exaggerating a bit! I don't think my launch would have come until around 1815 - 1820 and if you take the Oracle away, then yes, add some years to it.

I don't have any save actually. Unless I have a reason to hold onto one the board is cleared when I start playing a new game. Now, if someone challenges me to a game like Duckweed did a few weeks ago (that I accepted), then of course, I'll attach a save - or when helping out noobs requesting help ^^.

Anyways, getting side tracked, Why are we even talking about what ifs ^^? I did complete the Oracle and I did use it to propel me quite pleasantly in the direction I had planned.

I also think you're a good player but I also think we think very differently in terms of strategy and styles.

My point is that Oracle is not game breaking, the best reasonable slingshot is out to MC, but even that isn't all that many :science:. Now if your economy is completely tanked (you have writing, not pottery, and can't run specs because of strike), getting CoL off the Oracle can turn a losing position into a winning one, but by and large the Oracle is a gambit of moderate payout. Even the Sitting Bull Fuedalism/Theology double slingshot is not terribly game breaking, in spite of the strength of DIV LBs, and that requires far more gambling than even a MC shot.

Usually I'll go for the Oracle if I have marble in my BFC, or there's plains marble in a good spot that I can settle on. I did that in my most recent game- my capital continued churning our workers and settlers, my first settled city got the Oracle (and I grabbed MC).

Can you imagine what those hammers might have meant if you loose your Spaceship win on 1 turn!

Oh the horror of getting the Oracle ;)

Can you imagine what those hammers might have meant if you loose your Spaceship win on 1 turn!

Oh the horror of getting the Oracle ;)

:clap: :clap:

Can you imagine what those hammers might have meant if you loose your Spaceship win on 1 turn!

Oh the horror of getting the Oracle ;)

If you're going to bring it down to 1 turn, you could easily have lost just because you improved tiles in the wrong order...

The oracle is a strong opening but it isn't an autowin nor is not getting it an autoloss. By definition it isn't game-breaking, but if you can afford getting it of course it helps.

If you're going to bring it down to 1 turn, you could easily have lost just because you improved tiles in the wrong order...

The oracle is a strong opening but it isn't an autowin nor is not getting it an autoloss. By definition it isn't game-breaking, but if you can afford getting it of course it helps.

It was a bad joke TMIT ;)

anyone try slingshot Computer with Oracle ? :D

I suppose I would like to see more discussion of the planning and preparation of an oracle opening.

That is to say, in my mind the right frame of reference for discussing Oracle, and the tech you intend to harvest, is the start of the research climb to Priesthood, and the projected position if you win the race, rather than looking at the end. What are the telltails to watch as you make the decision.

I think they fall into two categories. One collection (alluded to several times, but I think they should be gathered into a convenient section) is the utility of the main research line (Myst-Wildcard-Priesthood) given the local circumstances - are there religions near by to make Temples useful? Do we have militant neighbors? Are we near land hogs? How soon can we trade the tech? Do we have the pieces to leverage the wildcard tech (Meditation needs religions, or gold for Aesthetics->Shadowan, or an early attack on Philo; Poly wants marble/early Literature). Do the GP points fit with our long term prospects.

The second collection would be more tied to the technology you hope to grab, and the prerequisites. So for Metal Casting, we'd be talking about the utility of forges (luxury metals near by), the possibility of the colossus, the implications of the pottery (therefore Wheel) requirement.

One collection (alluded to several times, but I think they should be gathered into a convenient section) is the utility of the main research line (Myst-Wildcard-Priesthood) given the local circumstances - are there religions near by to make Temples useful? Do we have militant neighbors? Are we near land hogs? How soon can we trade the tech? Do we have the pieces to leverage the wildcard tech (Meditation needs religions, or gold for Aesthetics->Shadowan, or an early attack on Philo; Poly wants marble/early Literature). Do the GP points fit with our long term prospects.
To this, I'd say that leaders like Izzy/Wang/Saladin make for a case where it would be silly to forgo the Oracle. Izzy was made to grab an early religion as was Saladin (with the Madrassa) and Wang's FIN trait makes getting the early religion almost guaranteed. With all 3 leaders, the Oracle's Prophet points are synergistic to shrine that early religion. Of course, that's all circumstantial. But I think that generally, when playing as these 3, an Oracle move is a good plan.


The second collection would be more tied to the technology you hope to grab, and the prerequisites. So for Metal Casting, we'd be talking about the utility of forges (luxury metals near by), the possibility of the colossus, the implications of the pottery (therefore Wheel) requirement.
I usually reserve the Colossus rush for a FIN leader and would rather choose either CoL or Currency (depending on which makes more sense for the game at hand). All this being said, the smaller the map, the more likely I am to go for the Oracle (less leaders = less likely to be built quickly).

anyone try slingshot Computer with Oracle ? :D
I recall reading a HOF game summary where Computer was taken as free tech on Settler... oh wait, that's from Liberalism, never mind.

Is there a worthwhile discussion to be had of which tech to self research and which to take from the oracle? Assuming the necessary prerequisites have already been researched, are there ever circumstances where you self research the expensive tech and oracle the cheap one?

Is there a worthwhile discussion to be had of which tech to self research and which to take from the oracle? Assuming the necessary prerequisites have already been researched, are there ever circumstances where you self research the expensive tech and oracle the cheap one?

Taking Monarchy (instead of, say, the more expensive Metal Casting or Code of Laws) is a viable option simply because it delivers a better short term benefit. In most cities, Hereditary Rule will allow you to roughly double your size up to the health cap, assuming you have sufficient food to get there. This essentially doubles your production potential without any increase in maintenance costs.

Your ~doubled production then makes much shorter work of the more expensive techs and makes everything easier.

I suppose I would like to see more discussion of the planning and preparation of an oracle opening.

That is to say, in my mind the right frame of reference for discussing Oracle, and the tech you intend to harvest, is the start of the research climb to Priesthood, and the projected position if you win the race, rather than looking at the end. What are the telltails to watch as you make the decision.

I think they fall into two categories. One collection (alluded to several times, but I think they should be gathered into a convenient section) is the utility of the main research line (Myst-Wildcard-Priesthood) given the local circumstances - are there religions near by to make Temples useful? Do we have militant neighbors? Are we near land hogs? How soon can we trade the tech? Do we have the pieces to leverage the wildcard tech (Meditation needs religions, or gold for Aesthetics->Shadowan, or an early attack on Philo; Poly wants marble/early Literature). Do the GP points fit with our long term prospects.

The second collection would be more tied to the technology you hope to grab, and the prerequisites. So for Metal Casting, we'd be talking about the utility of forges (luxury metals near by), the possibility of the colossus, the implications of the pottery (therefore Wheel) requirement.

Other than the other "must be prioritized to get" wonder, stonehenge, the oracle is the lowest hammer-sink early wonder, and the returns are pretty good. So when does one go for it? I look at a few things:

1. How strong is the commerce around the capitol. Do I have a river? Seafood? gold/gems/silver? These things make oracle more realistic.

2. Is the BTS forest bug in play? If so we'll want BW. If not, we can actually delay BW (!), going worker techs for the special tiles, mining, then straight to priesthood. Doing this allows one to oracle code of laws around 1800-1600 BC (you can still get a 2nd city out first usually) ---> if you're not on deity, you're very likely to succeed.

3. Now, are we losing land to this? Well, if you meet someone on turn 3-5, it's probably a good bet that you want something other than oracle, or might not want to delay BW (or our rush). City capture gold can allow an oracle-like tech jump anyway :p.

If you get BFC horses after researching AH for livestock, no oracle if you meet someone other than maya. You get to pretend you're persia ;). I've double-rushed (mehmed and cyrus, not super strong or weak targets) with stock chariots on immortal that way, and both had metal...or would have had metal anyway.

Obviously stone makes Gwall and mids more attractive, too. If you have marble aesthetics doesn't seem like a bad draw from oracle since you can get a very early great library/national epic going.

I tend to forgo the oracle. mainly because i'll delay building it to get the prerequisites for some fancy tech, and some crapweasel will beat me to it by one chop.

I got the idea into my head of getting stonehenge and oracle as Sitting Bull, with the free tech being feudalism. lots and lots of chopping. The plan was to create early superpowered Longbows, with extra drill and city garrison given to you by the totem pole xp bonus and the protective trait. Then conquer the world with a longbow/dogsoldier rush. If I got feudalism early enough, i'd be gving some archers severe bow envy.

The nearest I got was 2 turns to go, before someone beat me to it, with the oracle one turn from completion and me waiting on the final tech to come in.

It would be handy if someone had a rough set of times for when you can expect the oracle to be built. You can pretty much guess when someone is going to build a later wonder, as you can figure out who you're up against, in terms of who's got what tech, access to marble, is industrious etc. but with the early one's your just going by the timeframe.

I got the idea into my head of getting stonehenge and oracle as Sitting Bull, with the free tech being feudalism. lots and lots of chopping. The plan was to create early superpowered Longbows, with extra drill and city garrison given to you by the totem pole xp bonus and the protective trait. Then conquer the world with a longbow/dogsoldier rush. If I got feudalism early enough, i'd be gving some archers severe bow envy.
Add a bulb to Theology with the Great Prophet you will get and run Vassalage and Theocracy for CG 1, Drill 4 Longbows :faint:

The feudalism slingshot tends to require a special cap location on immort and up. Gems or gold being very handy for it.

Even with SB, LB rushing is situational. Personally I like to go for a mix of chariots and LBs, flanking chariots to weaken the defenders and Drill Lbs to kill the bastards.

In most cities, Hereditary Rule will allow you to roughly double your size up to the health cap, assuming you have sufficient food to get there. This essentially doubles your production potential without any increase in maintenance costs.

Your ~doubled production then makes much shorter work of the more expensive techs and makes everything easier.

Just a quibble, maintenance increases in relation to the size of the city, so maintenance costs will increase, but higher population can allow you to net out higher by working more commerce so it's generally a good trade off. This is why whipping infrastructure can help you get out of a REX economy crash - less population means less maintenance.

2. Is the BTS forest bug in play? If so we'll want BW. If not, we can actually delay BW (!), going worker techs for the special tiles, mining, then straight to priesthood. Doing this allows one to oracle code of laws around 1800-1600 BC (you can still get a 2nd city out first usually) ---> if you're not on deity, you're very likely to succeed.

You should be able to get 3 settlers out before you start the Oracle - around 1640-1500 BC, then chop chop!

You should be able to get 3 settlers out before you start the Oracle - around 1640-1500 BC, then chop chop!

It depends on the start whether there's time to go that route first, and whether it's worth not going that route first at risk of losing the wonder.