The past couple games I've played have ended up in a good position to try an axe rush. Copper in my capital BFC with some forests around to assist in chops and nearby neighbors.

However, my two neighbors were Wang Kon and Gilgamesh, both PRO civs. I tried attacking both on different saves with the same results, the archers are just way too strong with the starting promotions for my CR1 axes to handle.

Should I just wait till Construction to get cats or do you really just have to throw 10 axes at each city? It seems like it isnt worth it.

you should rush Wangkon cos Gil has higher culture due to Creative.
how many axe you throw in, at what time ?

In my experience, protective civs are just more trouble than they're worth when it comes to axe-rushing. It seems better to REX out and tech towards cats before taking them on. Although, I hear swords are much better at dealing with archers. Could try a sword rush?

In my current game with William I had Toku next to me, I axe rushed him with 8 CR1 (copper, lots of forests chopped) axes and after the dust settled 1 of his 3 archers was still standing on that hill, bleeding heavily. It was really close, my last attack had just over 50% chance of success, but it failed. PRO civs with archers on hills are tough, but I took him out later with catas and swords, losing 4 catas and 4 out of 6 swords to his 4 heavily barbarian-promoted archers.

With more axes than usual.

Try to avoid it if you can do so.

Yea, you need lots of units. It usually works out something like:

1 non protective archer fortified in a 20% culture city takes 2 Axe to win.
1 protective archer fortified in a 20% culture city takes 3 Axe to win.

1 non protective archer fortified in a 20% culture city on a hill takes 3 Axe to win.
1 protective archer fortified in a 20% culture city on a hill takes 4 Axe to win.

Not 100% accurate but it fits into most situations I have played in.

I'd say it's better to wait until you have catapults, but by then they might be close to Longbows, so, if you're gonna do it use more Axes. Alternatively use Swordsmen/Axes combo. Or use Flanking horses instead.

More axes than usual.

With cats.

With cats.

I'm more of a dog-lover myself.

More axes than usual.
hear hear ! and don't expect to win the whole thing at once - you'll take longer to build up the attack, so they'll have more defence and more to defend. So get an outlying city, then the capital, then maybe think about a truce.

I'm more of a dog-lover myself.

Try Sitting Bull and you can have the best of both worlds. :D

Nah, Sitting Bull is best suited for just expanding right towards the enemy borders and abusing protective. Dogs just don't cut it vs. protective archers.

Nah, Sitting Bull is best suited for just expanding right towards the enemy borders and abusing protective. Dogs just don't cut it vs. protective archers.

I think you are in danger of taking my post a little too seriously. ;)

I only read your post, I didn't read the previous ones.

:crazyeye:

What time did you deliver the blow? Rushing is about speed, not power. To rush optimally, you need to:

1. Do not play a civ with poor starting techs. You want some combination of The Wheel, Agriculture and Mining. Don't bother trying it with Charlemagne, for example.

2. Hit your research targets immediately with no frills.

3. Use slavery efficiently.

I'd probably take a pass unless playing Inca, Persia, or Egypt - all of which have superior early UUs vs archers. You could also go for a pin until you have cats/swords online, as long as only you are able to capitalize on the land they're not claiming while pinned.

If the land you're stuck on has marble, and a high food capital, then I suggest:

-Settle 3-4 cities if possible
-Tech to Aesthetics - Literature
-Chop the Great Libary and National Epic in the capital
-Settle the 1st great scientist
-Tech construction
-Spam catapults and swordsmen.
-While in the war, you can use the second great scientist for a tech, like philosophy, or for another person.

This works even better with a philosophical civ and a capital with several forests so with marble you can chop for quite a bonus.

With enough Axes you can pretty much rush any civ at the start of the game (except Babylon, at least on Monarch). You just have to keep in mind the opportunity cost... I probably wouldn't declare without at least 10 axes ready on any civ. If you need more than that, perhaps it's not worth it.

Hey all,

I just started my first prince game and I have run into the SAME exact problem. I am hemmed in on a peninsula with gigamesh only 10-15 tiles away blocking any expansion. I have room for MAYBE 3-4 cities IF gigamesh doesnt expand my way and thats only if he doesnt. I've tried quencha rushing but if I wait too long he has vultures which I cant break and If i go to soon i can't break his defeneses to crush him. I started with a worker then just have been chopping/slaving quenchas? Any ideas? DMOC advice fits my city perferctly, I might try that but if anyone has any idea's love to hear em.

I see Iron is revealed, this causes some concerns. Why do you only have one city @ Iron working? Looks like you beelined for it. Quechas require neither copper nor iron so why even bother? It is probably too late to Quecha rush at this point. It is probably optimal to start producing the Quechas @ turn1. Those plain forests + hills + the marble would be able to allow you to get them out at a reasonable time... Although I'm no expert.

@Teelman:
When rushing try attacking with a stack all at once instead of just trickling units across the AI's borders. There is a difference between a choke and a rush. When you DoW the AI will go into siege mode and start cranking units for defense. Surprising them with a stack works better if you intend to wipe the AI out.

Second, on Prince a quecha rush is the same as a warrior rush essentially because the AI doesn't start with archery. The bonus is wasted and the protective bonus for Gilgamesh means nothing as well b/c he won't have any archers. That said, there is nothing wrong with warrior rushing on Prince and below. Just build 4 or 5 warriors and go take the AI capital.

You are way too late with whatever you are trying to do in your screenshot. 1800BC is almost time to have a stack of axes ready. Also, there is no reason to build a road to your cows yet, you are way below your health cap. Roading toward Gilga's capital on the other hand could have sped up a late rush.

Try this: Reload the 4000BC save. Open by building 4 quechas while working a forested plains hill. DoW Gilga while right outside his border. Take his capital which will likely be defended by 1, maybe 2, warriors.

Hey all,

I just started my first prince game and I have run into the SAME exact problem. I am hemmed in on a peninsula with gigamesh only 10-15 tiles away blocking any expansion. I have room for MAYBE 3-4 cities IF gigamesh doesnt expand my way and thats only if he doesnt. I've tried quencha rushing but if I wait too long he has vultures which I cant break and If i go to soon i can't break his defeneses to crush him. I started with a worker then just have been chopping/slaving quenchas? Any ideas? DMOC advice fits my city perferctly, I might try that but if anyone has any idea's love to hear em.

Actually, my advice is more like when someone's boxed in by an Emperor or Immortal level AI. On prince, just building up 10 axes should suffice for protiective civs.:goodjob:

JBossch's advice is pretty nice.

Ok I will try that. My only thing is I pretty much always start off with a worker to start. I didnt find Gilgi until maybe 10 turns into the game already. I really try and not to restart unless its utterly hopeless because to me its sorta cheating and ruins the fun of starting a new game. My first try I had a stack of 6-7 quenchas which i built after my first worker and he had 2 archer and 2 warriors and I only killed one unit.

I always try and hook up early resources especially food ones which is why I hooked up the cows since I popped wheel from a hut. Is that not good strategy? Playing as HC should I alwasy be starting with a few quenchas in case someone is close like in this circumstance?

Ok I will try that. My only thing is I pretty much always start off with a worker to start. I didnt find Gilgi until maybe 10 turns into the game already. I really try and not to restart unless its utterly hopeless because to me its sorta cheating and ruins the fun of starting a new game. My first try I had a stack of 6-7 quenchas which i built after my first worker and he had 2 archer and 2 warriors and I only killed one unit.

On Prince you could build a worker and still warrior rush. You should, however, work max hammers to get them built quickly. If Gilga has 2 archers and 2 warriors on prince you are moving too slow.

I always try and hook up early resources especially food ones which is why I hooked up the cows since I popped wheel from a hut. Is that not good strategy?

No, its unnecessary.

Playing as HC should I alwasy be starting with a few quenchas in case someone is close like in this circumstance?

Like I said, on prince quechas are the same as warriors. You only get a bonus against archers and if you attack on time the AI will not have archery yet.

Hey all,

I just started my first prince game and I have run into the SAME exact problem. I am hemmed in on a peninsula with gigamesh only 10-15 tiles away blocking any expansion. ... I've tried quencha rushing...

From what I see, instead of building a worker, build Q's from the start while your city is growing, and declare war when you had 4-6 quechua so you can pillage their resources and prevent them from building axes, while you build more quechua to overpower their warriors/archers (if any) and take the nearby city.

You need to re-examine your tech path for a start. Why did you research Iron Working before Pottery when there's no jungle nearby and you are rushing with Quechuas, not swords? Beyond that, though, you have simply waited too long. If you have two mines and a pasture improved by a single worker before launching your Quechua rush, you have wasted too much time.

The key to rushing is to hit the opponent before they have a chance to build a defense, not to overpower the defenders.

Does the quecha rush lose its effectiveness as you step up in game levels (on prince now).

Does the quecha rush lose its effectiveness as you step up in game levels (on prince now).

Its probably more effective on levels where the AI starts with archery.

Its probably more effective on levels where the AI starts with archery.

Nope, it's still less effective, the dropoff is just far less than that of any other warrior rush. Although better vs archers in cities than warriors in cities, the AI tech rate and bonuses are such that the quecha rush is still going to be easier on prince and below, especially once you add maintenance into the equation. If the archers are on a hill they're still a legit problem, too. And while you can easily rush then below monarch, mali and babylon are both a pain to quecha rush on monarch+.

All that said, quecha rush is still a dominating opening on difficulties above prince, but at some point the AI bonuses actually trump its stupidity in archer spam, so it's doubtful an emp+ quecha rush is actually easier than a prince one.

Welp, this is how I like to generally do my axe-rushes:

Two seperate stacks of 45 Modern Tanks in each, with around 6 choppers in each for added protection. Another 70 units of Mech-inf for Auxilliary controls, and I'll keep my original warriors back in my 6 cities doing police-patrol.

In the event that you can't be bothered with managing large armies with the very slow GUI selection system, I like to crank out an ICBM a turn with the capital, and the rest all falls into place.

Nope, it's still less effective, the dropoff is just far less than that of any other warrior rush. Although better vs archers in cities than warriors in cities, the AI tech rate and bonuses are such that the quecha rush is still going to be easier on prince and below, especially once you add maintenance into the equation. If the archers are on a hill they're still a legit problem, too. And while you can easily rush then below monarch, mali and babylon are both a pain to quecha rush on monarch+.

All that said, quecha rush is still a dominating opening on difficulties above prince, but at some point the AI bonuses actually trump its stupidity in archer spam, so it's doubtful an emp+ quecha rush is actually easier than a prince one.

I guess my point was just that its no different than a warrior rush with an agg civ (Quechas still get Combat1 right? Haven't played Inca in a while). I don't see what AI tech rate has to do with anything on Prince and below. The AI won't have archers when your stack of 4 or 5 warriors (or Quechas, no diff) gets to their door step.

I guess my point was just that its no different than a warrior rush with an agg civ (Quechas still get Combat1 right? Haven't played Inca in a while). I don't see what AI tech rate has to do with anything on Prince and below. The AI won't have archers when your stack of 4 or 5 warriors (or Quechas, no diff) gets to their door step.

The AI gets bonuses to production too. At deity the archer is cheaper for it than a noble warrior, but even before then the :hammers: bonuses from difficulty start closing the effectiveness gap, relatively speaking.

And yes, quechas retain their combat I promotion even now.