Ideology Civics (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12838)


I felt that Rise of Mankind lacked ways to express a government's ideology. There were some civics, such as "Liberal" and "Socialized" but they represented largely different concepts than what I sought. So I made my own; the full list of civics is below. Ideology civics will differ from other civics in that players will begin with no ideology available or selected, and have to research the appropriate techs to unlock them.

Ideology Civics:


Objectivism (No Upkeep)
+2 unhealthiness
+2 Unhappiness in largest cities
-30% city maintenance
-30% corporation costs
+10 free military units
Corporation Buildings give +2 happy each
+2 Trade routes
Requires Communism


Individualism (Low Upkeep)
+1 Unhealthiness
+1 Unhappiness in largest cities
-20% city maintenance
+5 free military units
-20% corporation costs
Corporation Buildings give +1 happy each
+1 Trade route
Requires Constitution


Capitalism (Low Upkeep)
-10% city maintenance
-10% corporation costs
Requires Currency


Centrism (Medium Upkeep)
+3 happiness in largest cities
Requires Political Philosophy


Egalitarianism (Medium Upkeep)
+10% culture
+10% city maintenance
+10% corporation maintenance
+1 Happiness in largest cities
+1 Free Specialist
Requires Currency


Progressivism (High Upkeep)
+1 Healthiness
+2 Happiness in largest cities
+20% Culture
+1 gold military unit support cost
+20% city maintenance
+20% corporation maintenance
Broadcast Tower give +1 happiness
+2 Free Specialist
Requires Constitution


Socialism (Astronomical* Upkeep)
+30% culture
+1 Happiness in largest cities
+1 military unit support cost
+30% city maintenance
+30% corporation maintenance
+2 healthiness
Hospitals provide extra 1 unhappiness, extra 2 healthiness
Broadcast Tower give +2 happiness
Corporation Buildings give +1 unhappy each
+3 Free Specialist
Specialists generate one extra culture
Can Draft
Requires Communism



* I added Astronomical upkeep to balance Socialism; it's a step up from high.


Version History: 1.01

Download Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12838)

Good Idea, but by now it's not balanced. The conservative civics have more good modifiers than the social-liberal do. All this +maintance and +war wariness etc, not to talk about the -gold and -espionage of the social side isn't met by the +science and the +health/hapiness IMHO.

Btw. There are some conservative dumbnuts who feel even happy under Bush, so a little disturbing "argument": why not give ultra-conservatism more happy faces...? ;-)

As the modifiers are now they simply are not balanced out fair, I think and I wouldn't use them.

I think you should give liberal good espionage points too because of their science leadership.

The conservatives tend to look over their shoulders as opposed to liberals. that is a correct political science statement, though overgeneralizing. I should know because I'm a history major and took soc sci 101 and 102.

You can try to code Anarchy thing to be easier for liberals (shorter) and harder for conservatives (longer) as well.

Okay, how do they look now? Ultra conserv gives +5 unhealthy instead of 4, and +2 happy. Conservative gives +1 happy. All the liberals get a culture boost. Also, I mentioned the broadcast tower in liberal and ultra liberal.

My rational for conservative espionage bonus is that ultra conservatives (like Sean Hannity) have no qualms with waterboarding to "retrieve" information, whereas liberals would.

I meant easier anarchy if it goes forward and for greater humanity "good".

Also, I protest that liberals can be fascists. They can not. They can be totalitarians, not fascists. These terms mean two different things :).

My rational for conservative espionage bonus is that ultra conservatives (like Sean Hannity) have no qualms with waterboarding to "retrieve" information, whereas liberals would.

Put this way, agreed! *shudder at Bush's years of torture*

Any other changes? I want the civics to be as fair as possible.

My only problem is that in my form of English conservative = liberal that is the conservative party is the liberal party ie right wing. This is one of the things which has always confused me about that country in the northern hemisphere between Canada and Mexico.

My only problem is that in my form of English conservative = liberal that is the conservative party is the liberal party ie right wing. This is one of the things which has always confused me about that country in the northern hemisphere between Canada and Mexico.

The current names are mostly placeholders, until I come up with better ones. I hope to avoid this problem.

I think there are too many modifiers full stop.

The current civic screen already takes me a few minutes to work out whether to change civic or not, as there are 5-6 lines per civic of changes, which I think keep in my head while I look at what I'm thinking about changing too.

It makes the information a player needs to comprehend to make a meaningful choice too much.

If you add this additional civic as well, the choices must be:

a) Simple to comprehend
b) On a clear scale from one end to another.

See if you can limit yourself to 3 positives and 3 costs for each civic. Thus a total of 6 lines of text to comprehend per civic.

As a philosophical note - values relating to personal freedom and values relating to big government or small government are not at all aligned in my experience.

The governments who have the most "hands off, fend for yourself" attitude to healthcare, social provision and government regulation are often also the ones who have the most intrusive attitude to personal liberty.

As such, it might be wiser to reform the government civics into TWO ideological sliders, rather than simply adding another to the existing one.

It's a minefield!

The current civic screen already takes me a few minutes to work out whether to change civic or not, as there are 5-6 lines per civic of changes,
Many of the other civics have many many items, but mainly because of building modifiers. I'll see what I can do.

As a philosophical note - values relating to personal freedom and values relating to big government or small government are not at all aligned in my experience.

The governments who have the most "hands off, fend for yourself" attitude to healthcare, social provision and government regulation are often also the ones who have the most intrusive attitude to personal liberty.

There's not a really good way to show personal freedom. I'm not going to make civics for freedom either, because it isn't (as) important to how the government operates. Plus, If I go about weakening one side more than the other, no one will ever use it. See? We're all biased.



As such, it might be wiser to reform the government civics into TWO ideological sliders, rather than simply adding another to the existing one.

This might be cool, but not at all realistic. I'm not going to mess with the existing civics, cause that's Zappara's domain.

Whoah whoah whoah, liberals ideology more scientific than conservative? That's kinda offensive, you should really think about removing the science slider because the only difference between the ideologies science wise in general is conservatives generally are religous, and liberals generally are less inclined to be so. Liberals are generally believing in the theory of evelolution, conservatives do not.

The gold, culture and espionage sliders however do represent the parties well. But, there is another problem, while it is true in this country liberals are much more against wars than conservatives generally, the +100% and -100% war weariness at the extreme sides is WAY to much, like WAY to much. It sends the message that all the conservatives want is war and all the liberals want to sit back and get destroyed. Europe is very socialist and yet, look at all the wars over there in the past several hundred years that had the peoples support. Honestly the war weariness slider should just be removed, the +10 free units and draft does a good job at showing how conservatives are more accepting of a war should it be neccissary, I would also reccomend removing the + unit support cost for liberals.

What the heck is the +5 unhealthiness for conservatives and +4 health for liberals in here for? Because the fact that the liberal ideology is pro green, add like .3 health to forrest improvements. Conservatives should get more money on there mining and oil improvements, and thats it, whats the unhealth from? Corporations? Pfft...


Lol okay, just want to say if you found my comment to be rude, I seriously wasn't. Awesome idea Afforess, if I find anything else that I think should be changed or have more ideas I will be sure to post them here.

I like what you are trying to do, but I think some adjustments are needed since you are basing it on current american concepts which are driven by politics not policy

1. No war weariness adjustment liberal democracies as well as regimes have started and fought more wars in the 20th century than anyone else ie. USSR, french and US in vietnam, balkans under Clinton, Chinese involvement in Korea etc. the public in general usually supports wars in general as long as they believe you are winning ie vietnam US support for the war was 80% until images from the tet offensive changed public opinion.

2. I disagree with the health modifiers liberals have been green for less than two decades, conservatives have usually done more history to preserve forests and wetlands as well as curb industry growth usually because they were not aligned with them ie Teddy Roosvelt national park system and Nixon EPA and Clean air act. Conservatives have broken up more monopolies than liberals while liberalism Nationalizes them.

3. What I was trying to say health, trade, and happiness modifiers needed to have adjustments based on other civic choices ie; Ultra liberal with Intolerant Civ should have -4 happiness, Consertaive health bonus with private, liberal high health bonus with Socialized(universal) health like +4, +2 with socialized

4. Ideology dictates civics which permits them to thrive or fail

5. Moderate should be by far the safest to play with, the farther you wish to play on the ideological spectrum the more thought that is required but if you if are good the bonuses are worth it.

6. Espionage has nothing to do with ideology history has shown us that both liberal and conservative ideologies can use it effectively it depends more on your foriegn policy objectives
and how much you willing to invest in it. If you look at the best intelligence networks in history they run the political spectrum. Remember Civ takes in to account 8000 years of history.

7. Science modifiers need to be adjusted Hitler's Germany would be considered Ultra-conservative but their respect was amazing they held tech advantage throughout the whole war until they were overwhelmed by a much larger force and mother nature. Aggresive conservative leaders have usually embraced science for its advantages on the battlefield. In the west it has usually been the driving force behind scientific achievement, that and profit.

Tell me what you think

Thanks for the many suggestions. I have taken them into consideration, and made changes accordingly. I personally like the idea of certain ideologies having synergestic or negative effects with other civics; I'm just not sure if that's possible without SDK changes.

I apologize for the brief post, I'm without a computer for the next 5 days. (mobile phone browsers are terrible.) please continue to critique.

By the way, I think currently maximum amount of civic categories in RoM is set to 9 (RoM has 7). It's defined in Global defines somewhere. In most cases if things go over the defines in global defines the game will get CTDs - so if you are adding several categories, you might have to increase this define, though I can up it by few in next RoM patch as well, since it looks like people are making all kinds of modmods for RoM now :)

By the way, I think currently maximum amount of civic categories in RoM is set to 9 (RoM has 7). It's defined in Global defines somewhere. In most cases if things go over the defines in global defines the game will get CTDs - so if you are adding several categories, you might have to increase this define, though I can up it by few in next RoM patch as well, since it looks like people are making all kinds of modmods for RoM now :)

Thanks, zappara. 13 should probably be enough, as I have no further civic ideas after this, but I wouldn't want to stifle others. A side question, is it possible to rearrange the order civics appear modularly, it bugs me that my military civics come after the futuristic ones. If not, it's not a big issue.

Updated. Beta is available for playtesting. Feedback is appreciated.

I think that there should be ideologies that affect diplomacy. Rightwing ideologies get +1 diplomacy points (could depend for something too) for every civ that has the same ideology, and -1 diplomacy points for every civ that has the leftwing ideology.

Same as with religions, there should be more diplomacy hits (like if you have two holy cities, religion A and B, and your state religion is A and your neighbour have B. But if you are running intolerant, and killing the religion B citizens the minuspoints should grow. And for the leftwing ideologies, they often neglect the religion. Good idea though.

I think that there should be ideologies that affect diplomacy. Rightwing ideologies get +1 diplomacy points (could depend for something too) for every civ that has the same ideology

Jooyo already made that, but it requires SDK changes. The other half of your suggestion would require extensive modding, and I'm not good at anything other than XML. :sad:

Thanks, zappara. 13 should probably be enough, as I have no further civic ideas after this, but I wouldn't want to stifle others. A side question, is it possible to rearrange the order civics appear modularly, it bugs me that my military civics come after the futuristic ones. If not, it's not a big issue.
Probably not possible, the game loads first the basic mod files and then adds all modular stuff after them.

Currently, none of them require any technology prerequisites, contrary to all other civics. I may change that, but am open to suggestions.


Yes, they all need prerequisites, I think.
Maybe always a right and a left wing ideology available with same tech (or closely to tech after another).


Also, I personally feel that the left/liberal side is underpowered and the right/conservative side is overpowered; convince me that I'm right or wrong.

Absolutely right!
As it is now, I almost always use the right wing-ideologies, whereas I really would like to be able to chose the "left" side of the spectrum equally (that's what it is about anyway: equality) - as it suits my personal political views much better. Now I almost feel guilty when playing civ - and it's your fault!!! :D



Use at your own risk.


Damn, you ensured yourself already! :crazyeye:

I did some major revamping, as I didn't like the way they were. Hopefully they are almost done.

I like the new tweaks very much. Now its all about culture/happy/healthy vs gold/science/army boost...
Guess the latter one will provide the majority most of the time - as well as usually seen in history... :(
I will need to work out a strategy to counter that! :D

One last thing to tweak the the progressive side could be the conscription/draft ability, if they have researched the tech "grand war", simulating creation of a type of french revolutionary army (Progressivism gets possibilty for 2 drafts/turn) or early red army (Socialism gets possibilty for 5 drafts/turn) and such defensive effects of ideology/military - as allready included in right wing civics as +XY free units/turn -

Downloaded and about to try. I am pretty sure that you can put the game text XML in your module rather than in the base XML folder keeping the whole thing more modular.

Downloaded and about to try. I am pretty sure that you can put the game text XML in your module rather than in the base XML folder keeping the whole thing more modular.

Usually, you can. Apparently, with civics, you can't. I tried it that way originally, and all I got was a ton of TXT_KEY_CIVIC_OPTION...

I learn something new every day :)

Updated. Ideology Civics is out of testing and ready for gameplay.

Updated for Rise of Mankind 2.71. Please re-download.

I personally think that civics like egalitarianism and Progressivism increase city maintenance too much. They already have higher upkeep and later in the game a couple happieness or healthieness bonuses or a specialist or two don't really make up for the costs. On the other hand things like capitalism and individualism cost a lot less and still give nearly as good benefits. If by capitalism you refer to pure capitalism rather than what most civilizations have now then it should add significantly more unhealthiness and unhappieness considering the miserable conditions ordinary people lived in during those times.

one question, does this modmod and your realistic diplomacy mod work for the newest version of rise of mankind?

I personally think that civics like egalitarianism and Progressivism increase city maintenance too much.


Historically, their costs have been high. I feel that the bonuses are fairly equal. In a large empire, 10% increase in maintenance is equal to approx 15 gold/turn. That seems fair for 1 free specialist in EVERY city. Heck, 7 or 8 merchants could outweigh the costs easily. That doesn't even account for the culture and health bonuses.


If by capitalism you refer to pure capitalism rather than what most civilizations have now then it should add significantly more unhealthiness and unhappieness considering the miserable conditions ordinary people lived in during those times.


Most countries have mixed capitalist systems. Very very few have ever been "Pure" capitalist. Regardless, I'm not here to force a political philosophy on someone. Just because you seem to favor liberalism doesn't mean I can weaken conservatism, just because you disagree with it. I had long discussions earlier about this issue, where I believe we resolved the civics pretty nicely. I don't mean to ignore you, I just disagree with you.


one question, does this modmod and your realistic diplomacy mod work for the newest version of rise of mankind?

ALL of my modules are compatible with one another.

Most countries have mixed capitalist systems. Very very few have ever been "Pure" capitalist. Regardless, I'm not here to force a political philosophy on someone. Just because you seem to favor liberalism doesn't mean I can weaken conservatism, just because you disagree with it. I had long discussions earlier about this issue, where I believe we resolved the civics pretty nicely. I don't mean to ignore you, I just disagree with you.


This is absolutly not a political debate. There is absolutly no one who can argue that pure capitalism, as you civic suggests, caused no change in happieness or unhealthieness. Child Labour, extremly low wage, and more all exist in pure capitalist nations and all cause unhappieness. To argue that its a political debate to argue that those two, specifically, cause unhappieness is rediculous.

As for my other question, I think you have a good point.

This is absolutly not a political debate. There is absolutly no one who can argue that pure capitalism...

Would you prefer I call it "Free Enterprise" then?


Child Labour, extremly low wage, and more all exist in pure capitalist nations and all cause unhappieness.


My Civics do reflect that, see for yourself.


Individualism
+1 Unhappiness in largest cities



Objectivism
+2 Unhappiness in largest cities

Europe is very socialist and yet, look at all the wars over there in the past several hundred years that had the peoples support. um... You and me have different meanings of peoples support in mind... I hope.

The whole idea is grat.

Capitalism (Low Upkeep)
-10% city maintenance
-10% corporation costs

I don't see any unhappieness or unhealthieness in there

Capitalism (Low Upkeep)
-10% city maintenance
-10% corporation costs

I don't see any unhappieness or unhealthieness in there

I didn't feel that Capitalism needed weakening, since Egalitarianism was already good. If you really care, it isn't hard to open up the Ideology_Civ4CivicInfos.xml and tweak the <ihealth> and <ihappiness> tags from 0 to -1 or whatever you desire. That's the whole point of modding... Changing the game to fit your will.

I can imagine that this is a difficult mod to make without favoring certain ideologies but I believe that you have done a good job despite the favoritism towards socialism.

However, my game begins with Banditry selected as my placeholder for the ideology. Perhaps you should create a "None" ideology or something to replace it. btw, I am using your civics multi-pack.

I can imagine that this is a difficult mod to make without favoring certain ideologies but I believe that you have done a good job despite the favoritism towards socialism.


Dang, I was hoping that its "Astronomical" Upkeep would balance it.


However, my game begins with Banditry selected as my placeholder for the ideology. Perhaps you should create a "None" ideology or something to replace it. btw, I am using your civics multi-pack.

I have fixed it. Please re-download my pack.

Okay, how do they look now? Ultra conserv gives +5 unhealthy instead of 4, and +2 happy. Conservative gives +1 happy. All the liberals get a culture boost. Also, I mentioned the broadcast tower in liberal and ultra liberal.

My rational for conservative espionage bonus is that ultra conservatives (like Sean Hannity) have no qualms with waterboarding to "retrieve" information, whereas liberals would.
therein lies the issue, waterboarding has yielded 0 extra information than could be obtained by means within the Geneva Conventions and some believe it has hardened the enemy against us leading to less info... also from observing history conservative and xenophobic nationalism walk hand in hand, so there should be a penalty by having a culture exceed say 10% of a city, each 5% above that yields an extra unhappiness

Whoa whoa whoa, liberals ideology more scientific than conservative? That's kinda offensive, you should really think about removing the science slider because the only difference between the ideologies science wise in general is conservatives generally are religious, and liberals generally are less inclined to be so. Liberals are generally believing in the theory of evolution, conservatives do not.

The gold, culture and espionage sliders however do represent the parties well. But, there is another problem, while it is true in this country liberals are much more against wars than conservatives generally, the +100% and -100% war weariness at the extreme sides is WAY to much, like WAY to much. It sends the message that all the conservatives want is war and all the liberals want to sit back and get destroyed. Europe is very socialist and yet, look at all the wars over there in the past several hundred years that had the peoples support. Honestly the war weariness slider should just be removed, the +10 free units and draft does a good job at showing how conservatives are more accepting of a war should it be necessary, I would also reccomend removing the + unit support cost for liberals.

What the heck is the +5 unhealthiness for conservatives and +4 health for liberals in here for? Because the fact that the liberal ideology is pro green, add like .3 health to forrest improvements. Conservatives should get more money on there mining and oil improvements, and thats it, whats the unhealth from? Corporations? Pfft...


Lol okay, just want to say if you found my comment to be rude, I seriously wasn't. Awesome idea Afforess, if I find anything else that I think should be changed or have more ideas I will be sure to post them here.
[indent] FYI in the USA conservatives repeatedly take a hatchet to education and non-DARPA science, how is that aiding science? while on the opposite side of the spectrum you have them pumping tons of funding into science and education, in fact that is a key part of Democrat ideology, additionally you have a high number of liberals coming out of college (because a close-minded perspective is debilitating in such a learning focused environment).
[indent] Also the Gold slider should favor the conservatives (pro-business), and the Culture slider should favor the Liberals *cough*Liberal Arts*cough*, while the Espionage slider should favor no one or perhaps lean slightly liberal (spying is easier with cutting edge gear). I concur that the war-weariness fact is WAY out of whack, but most of Europe wasn't Democratic even 100 years ago, heck Europe had Monarchs during WWII

I can imagine that this is a difficult mod to make without favoring certain ideologies but I believe that you have done a good job despite the favoritism towards socialism.

However, my game begins with Banditry selected as my placeholder for the ideology. Perhaps you should create a "None" ideology or something to replace it. btw, I am using your civics multi-pack.

I concur that the war-weariness fact is WAY out of whack, but most of Europe wasn't Democratic even 100 years ago, heck Europe had Monarchs during WWII

A lot of contries in Europe has monarchs even today, but same as during WWII they are/were not in power.
Also its difficult to describe warweariness, cos there are two factors that is not differentiated in CIV4. Was it a declaration of war or did someone declare war upon them. IMO that is a big difference. I usually dont go slapping people (maybe because I'm a liberal) but if someone starts slapping me, then I surely will kick back ;)

therein lies the issue, waterboarding has yielded 0 extra information than could be obtained by means within the Geneva Conventions and some believe it has hardened the enemy against us leading to less info... also from observing history conservative and xenophobic nationalism walk hand in hand, so there should be a penalty by having a culture exceed say 10% of a city, each 5% above that yields an extra unhappiness


[indent] FYI in the USA conservatives repeatedly take a hatchet to education and non-DARPA science, how is that aiding science? while on the opposite side of the spectrum you have them pumping tons of funding into science and education, in fact that is a key part of Democrat ideology, additionally you have a high number of liberals coming out of college (because a close-minded perspective is debilitating in such a learning focused environment).
[indent] Also the Gold slider should favor the conservatives (pro-business), and the Culture slider should favor the Liberals *cough*Liberal Arts*cough*, while the Espionage slider should favor no one or perhaps lean slightly liberal (spying is easier with cutting edge gear). I concur that the war-weariness fact is WAY out of whack, but most of Europe wasn't Democratic even 100 years ago, heck Europe had Monarchs during WWII

Please keep in mind that Ideologies are very hard to do. What I did with these civics was some over-generalization, purposefully. You know the political compass (I assume you do from your sig), I didn't just want to implement the compass into civ, because that would have meant 2 new civic trees instead of one. So, I tried to merge the two spectrums the best I could. I realize that Neoconservatives have caused some harm to education and Libertarians are a recent development. But I really can't dynamically show the two political spectrums well, It is more of a diagonal line, if you will, across the political spectrum, with Objectivism at 10,-10 and Socialism at -10,10. It isn't perfect, but we're playing a fictional game, with arbitrary (and sometimes silly) rules, so I have to compromise. I you really strongly feel my civics are poorly constructed, by all means, create your own. That's why we mod.

To summarize that paragraph, I basically said "I'm not changing anything."

Please keep in mind that Ideologies are very hard to do. What I did with these civics was some over-generalization, purposefully. You know the political compass (I assume you do from your sig), I didn't just want to implement the compass into civ, because that would have meant 2 new civic trees instead of one. So, I tried to merge the two spectrums the best I could. I realize that Neoconservatives have caused some harm to education and Libertarians are a recent development. But I really can't dynamically show the two political spectrums well, It is more of a diagonal line, if you will, across the political spectrum, with Objectivism at 10,-10 and Socialism at -10,10. It isn't perfect, but we're playing a fictional game, with arbitrary (and sometimes silly) rules, so I have to compromise. I you really strongly feel my civics are poorly constructed, by all means, create your own. That's why we mod.

To summarize that paragraph, I basically said "I'm not changing anything."

that makes much more sense, thanks for the explanation :)

Instead of you of minifashions will clash with mod which adds a unique building for each form of government and ideology? With I mean the conflict with Modular Civic Buildings for Rise of Mankind 2.71 by generalstaff.

Instead of you of minifashions will clash with mod which adds a unique building for each form of government and ideology? With I mean the conflict with Modular Civic Buildings for Rise of Mankind 2.71 by generalstaff.


No, my entire goal in modding has been to make everything compatible. I foresee no problems using the two.

Well well, im trying to creat a new Civics board :).
Your Mods have alot of Civics based on Marx's ideal, that inpired me very much. So i thought i can make a Civics board based on Marx's dialectical materialism and historical materialism ^^. I dont think Marxism can fit this game well, but ill try to do the best to make this game more Marxism and deep ^^.

I created 7 Civics group now
Government
Labor
Economic
Society
Education
Religion
Military

and there are civics in groups
Government ==> focus on how you organize the cities and your empire, and its include the political issue.
1 Tribalism
2 Despotism
3 Republic
4 Monarchy
5 Democracy
6 Soviet
7 Facism
8 Socialism

Labor ==> how your empire product all things.
1 Commune
2 Allocated
3 Servitude
4 Land Rent
5 Contraction
6 Emancipation
7 Volunteer
8 Collective

Economic ==> how you can trade and distribute.
1 Self-Supporting
2 Barter
3 Monetary
4 Feudal
5 Mercantilism
6 Free Market
7 Corporation
8 Planned

Society ==> man-man relation.
1 Tribal
2 Caste
3 Slavery
4 Serfdom
5 Bourgeois
6 Proletariat
7 Nationalism
8 Internationalism

Education ==> it will be very fun
1 Ignorance
2 Unpromted
3 Militaristic
4 Apprentice
5 School
6 University
7 State Subsidization
8 Socialize

Religion ==> regilion of course ^^.
1 Paganism
2 Shamanism
3 Organized Religion
4 Theocracy
5 Pacifism
6 Free Religion
7 Secularism
8 Antitheism

Military ==> wavering about it. But it may be important ^^.
1 Chiefdom
2 Recuitment
3 Professional
4 Feudal Lord
5 Imperialism
6 Duty
7 People Army
8 Peace Embracement

Oh, and first, i have some questions, plz help me ^^.
-I want to know how you can decreast cost of buildings with your civics ?? I check the Civic XML many times, but i didnt see any things about it :).

-Can we decreast cost of Units like buildings ?? And can we have some type of Units like caravan, but can hurry production in a city (call them Builders).

-Can each Civics have 1 unique building ? Like Slave market only can build in Slavery ?.

Thx you very much, and srry for my bad English :p.

Well well, im trying to creat a new Civics board :).
Your Mods have alot of Civics based on Marx's ideal, that inpired me very much. So i thought i can make a Civics board based on Marx's dialectical materialism and historical materialism ^^. I dont think Marxism can fit this game well, but ill try to do the best to make this game more Marxism and deep ^^.

I didn't really aim for marxism. I just wanted more realism.

I created 7 Civics group now
Government
Labor
Economic
Society
Education
Religion
Military

and there are civics in groups
Government ==> focus on how you organize the cities and your empire, and its include the political issue.
1 Tribalism
2 Despotism
3 Republic
4 Monarchy
5 Democracy
6 Soviet
7 Facism
8 Socialism

Labor ==> how your empire product all things.
1 Commune
2 Allocated
3 Servitude
4 Land Rent
5 Contraction
6 Emancipation
7 Volunteer
8 Collective

Economic ==> how you can trade and distribute.
1 Self-Supporting
2 Barter
3 Monetary
4 Feudal
5 Mercantilism
6 Free Market
7 Corporation
8 Planned

Society ==> man-man relation.
1 Tribal
2 Caste
3 Slavery
4 Serfdom
5 Bourgeois
6 Proletariat
7 Nationalism
8 Internationalism

Education ==> it will be very fun
1 Ignorance
2 Unpromted
3 Militaristic
4 Apprentice
5 School
6 University
7 State Subsidization
8 Socialize

Religion ==> regilion of course ^^.
1 Paganism
2 Shamanism
3 Organized Religion
4 Theocracy
5 Pacifism
6 Free Religion
7 Secularism
8 Antitheism


Military ==> wavering about it. But it may be important ^^.
1 Chiefdom
2 Recuitment
3 Professional
4 Feudal Lord
5 Imperialism
6 Duty
7 People Army
8 Peace Embracement


Hmm.. Some of those things I forgot about.

I myself had issues with the current civic system. I just don't think they make sense. I month ago, I had plans to completely rewrite Rom's civics, but I could never get attitude modifiers to work, so my plans, although completely written, just kinda got forgotten.

Everyone can see what I was going to do here (http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd7wkht7_107f6cpk3fw). I decided civics were silly, and to rename them Departments or Ministries, depending on your region, and add alot more options, like real countries have.




Oh, and first, i have some questions, plz help me ^^.
-I want to know how you can decreast cost of buildings with your civics ?? I check the Civic XML many times, but i didnt see any things about it :).

-Can we decreast cost of Units like buildings ?? And can we have some type of Units like caravan, but can hurry production in a city (call them Builders).

-Can each Civics have 1 unique building ? Like Slave market only can build in Slavery ?.

Thx you very much, and srry for my bad English :p

That isn't done in the XML, you have to use python for that, but yes, you can do all of that.

wow, but i dont know how to use python :|. Seem i have to leartn somethings first ^^.

I wondered, would blending this in with the Rev Mod (+/- local/national rebelliousness) be to great of an addition? This is already incredible in and of itself, but I thought about whether or not this would complicate or benefit, seeing as how...

Free Enterprise, Egalitarian, Progressive, and Socialist would theoretically decrease rebelliousness to varying degrees while Individuality and Objectivism increase it. Again, this is a just a thought, but any thoughts from you Afforess?

Free Enterprise, Egalitarian, Progressive, and Socialist would theoretically decrease rebelliousness to varying degrees while Individuality and Objectivism increase it. Again, this is a just a thought, but any thoughts from you Afforess?

Nope. I will not add that. Before you get offended, here's why:

If I added that, I would be conclusively stating that Objectivism = Bad, Socialism = Good. But players of all ideologies play, so I'm not going to force a political viewpoint onto them. I did, however, try to make the civics as representative as possible of the options available.

Why can Objectivism draft, shouldn't it be so that Socialism can draft?

Why can Objectivism draft, shouldn't it be so that Socialism can draft?

Hmm. I suppose my reasoning is flawed there. I will update it.

If I added that, I would be conclusively stating that Objectivism = Bad, Socialism = Good. But players of all ideologies play, so I'm not going to force a political viewpoint onto them. I did, however, try to make the civics as representative as possible of the options available.

None taken. I figured it wasn't added by virtue of how ambiguous or complicated it would be to define the degree (or lack) of rebelliousness in terms of politics and all.

This is a little late in the game, but I have a bit of a more theoretical problem with the design then a functional one. The relationship between the state and the individual is already defined "between the lines" by the rest of the expanded Rise of Man civics. Historically, there's a strong argument for the state-populace relationship being a consequence of other structural decisions. Look at comtemporary China - previously considered a totalitarian state, now shifting towards a moderate authoritarian environment. This actually has nothing to do with the population-facing policy, be it the American Constitution or Castro's revolver in your face. It's all about articulating and enabling a different decision - already covered by something like the economy, or Welfare categories, for example.

Instead, have you considered something like Alpha Centauri's "Values" category? Imagine choosing between categories like Power (Military, Espionage, Force Projection), Wealth (Income, Trade, Corporate Advantage), Influence (Culture, Diplomacy, Religion), or Stability (Counter-Revolutionary Factors, Less Distance Penalties). By changing the paradigm of the category, players could choose to specialize towards a specific advantage, or focus on stability and be a generalist. I know this is a departure from what you're shooting for, but it doesn't have a limb in the other civic categories.

As a side-note, I absolutely love the "Department of-" mod idea, and would love to see it implemented.

This is a little late in the game, but I have a bit of a more theoretical problem with the design then a functional one. The relationship between the state and the individual is already defined "between the lines" by the rest of the expanded Rise of Man civics. Historically, there's a strong argument for the state-populace relationship being a consequence of other structural decisions. Look at comtemporary China - previously considered a totalitarian state, now shifting towards a moderate authoritarian environment. This actually has nothing to do with the population-facing policy, be it the American Constitution or Castro's revolver in your face. It's all about articulating and enabling a different decision - already covered by something like the economy, or Welfare categories, for example.

True, very true.

However, these ideologies were made so that players could be that "benevolient dictatorship" that they always wanted to be.

Also, keep in mind that this is one of my older features. Being very old, I haven't revisited and updated it much.



As a side-note, I absolutely love the "Department of-" mod idea, and would love to see it implemented.


Thanks. I might start working on them soon.

Was this updated for 2.81?

Was this updated for 2.81?

Please do not dig up old threads. Check the Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn forum for details.