Some time ago I saw TMIT state that some people manage to choose Medicine from Lib.

Now there are two things that I wanted to ask about this subject after I had a recent game with a VERY good GP farm.

1. How exactly do you do this?
2. Is it worth it.

Ok, on the how to do this subject.

Lets say you have got a VERY good GP farm.
You got a tech advantage and you went aesthetics/Literature/Lib beeline and you traded CoL somewhere along the roads.
Now fastest way to go to medicine is (correct me if I am mistaken)
Astronomy --> Sci Met ---> Physics ----> Bio.

Sci Met is bulbable with 2 GS. Physics need a couple of turns max researching plus 2 GS.
Optics plus Compass must be either traded or selfresearched.
Now the key I guess is having an Edu monopoly.
You want to trade Edu for Astronomy.
Which means you either have to have a spare tech (unlikely) or you have to put a couple of turns into researching Ast.
You also want to have almost researched Lib yourself.

Total of GS needed 7.
1 Philo, 2 Edu, 2 sci met, 2 physics.

Thoughts?

Biology needs chemistry.

you go education, gunpowder, bulb printing press, bulb chemistry, bulb scientific method, tech biology - liberialsim.

You also want Alphabet and machinery for printing press and engineering for chemistry..thats about it....peace of cake :)

You're confusing 2 strategies.

1. Use scientists to bulb Liberalism ASAP, even if Nationalism is the best tech you can get for free. A good strategy when the AIs research faster than you.

2. Use a strong research base to beeline down the tech tree, holding off on Liberalism until you are at risk of losing it. Scientists should be settled or used for academies. A good strategy when you research faster than the AIs.

@Indiansmoke
Blegh I should have checked the Civ-base to crosscheck.
It is doable to get 9 GS, but getting gunpowder and engineering seems very tricky, maybe trade Edu for it if possible?

@Dave.
I get my lib races 99% of the time, but in general I always end up with steel or Astronomy at best.
The thing is if I want to go a peacefull route, Biology most often is extremely good.
Especially since I loose TGL and Parthenon with Sci Met
Settled GS, you do that on deity?

Scientists should be settled or used for academies. A good strategy when you research faster than the AIs.

Settled GS, you do that on deity?

Deity OCC is about the only time both of those are true. Yes, I will settle GS in that case.

2. Use a strong research base to beeline down the tech tree, holding off on Liberalism until you are at risk of losing it. Scientists should be settled or used for academies. A good strategy when you research faster than the AIs.

Having enough spy points to see what your opponents are researching is a godsend for this. Knowing that you can research Liberalism in 3 turns and that your opponent has just started researching it with 5 turns to go means you can get it first. An early settled Great Spy is quite handy for that.

Only finding out that your opponent started researching Liberalism with 5 turns to go 6 turns after he starts means you won't get the free tech. :)

Like Dave said, you are confusing two strategies (although I think significant bulbing is still viable for say, a steel or astro slingshot). The whole Medicine slingshot idea can only be viable on low levels. In most of my recent Deity games Lib is gone in the 600-700 AD range, though I have seen it as late as 1000AD-ish. Either way, you are not getting Medicine.

Like Dave said, you are confusing two strategies (although I think significant bulbing is still viable for say, a steel or astro slingshot). The whole Medicine slingshot idea can only be viable on low levels. In most of my recent Deity games Lib is gone in the 600-700 AD range, though I have seen it as late as 1000AD-ish. Either way, you are not getting Medicine.

Since he mentioned me and biology in other parts of this thread, I'm assuming he meant biology rather than medicine.

I know people have done it at all levels, although I'm not sure how consistently even the best could get it on deity.

I meant Biology :).

The prob is not getting 9 GS before 1000 AD (some games on immortal Lib is not discovered around 1200), it is getting gunpowder (music for a GA) and Engi on time.

Sounds like a challenge :P

Research gunpowder before engineering...the AIs tend to tech engineering earlier and you are more likely to be able to trade it. Sci method might be a little tricky too though. You can bulb both chemistry and scientific method, but that isn't cheap...! If you have the scientists you can bulb straight through chem/sci meth after trading for engineering though...AIs usually get engineering much much sooner than lib. Usually.

Besides from libbing biology, how does everyone manage to lib steel? Even with a huge lead, researching both gunpowder and chemistry seems to take too long to be comfortable with nabbing liberalism.

Besides from libbing biology, how does everyone manage to lib steel? Even with a huge lead, researching both gunpowder and chemistry seems to take too long to be comfortable with nabbing liberalism.

You can bulb chemistry with scientists, reducing the time it takes to get there greatly.

I've seen the option a few times, I just always seem to get printing press->scientific method as my options to bulb. What techs do I have to avoid? Are there certain techs I need (Engineering)?

I've seen the option a few times, I just always seem to get printing press->scientific method as my options to bulb. What techs do I have to avoid? Are there certain techs I need (Engineering)?

I forget offhand whether printing press trumps it (edit: it does, so you'll have to get PP first). To avoid sci meth just avoid astronomy...shouldn't be too hard normally.

Bulbing chem on the way to Libbing Steel is almost never doable in my experience. I am kinda ashamed to answer this question because I have been meaning to write a strategy articel about Libbing steel for some time now. Oh well, I will answer in brief:

Basically you need a lot of GSs and a decent bureaucracy capital. Typical bulbs are: 1 for Philo, 1-2 for Edu. Paper is also possible though rarely advisable because of the waste of beakers. Bulbing Lib itself is possible though it requires avoiding machinery (which will eventually be needed) and teching compass (this is usually more desirable if attempting to Lib astro but may work if you can get compass in trade.) Note: Don't forget the GS for an academy!
Once you are 1 turn away from Lib, switch to Gunpowder. Typically, you can backtrade for machinery and engineering somewhere in here.
Chem will almost always have to be self-researched. This is why I say that a decent economy, usually including a bureaucracy capital, is necessary.

I almost always prefer the steel beeline as opposed to rifling. Cannons devastate the AIs, even when backed up with medieval units. A couple notes:
-Don't forget cannons require iron. Make sure you have a source.
-Backtrade for nationalism and have your GT city set up is possible. Draft muskets to back up your cannons.
-A swap to CS and Pacifism is often helpful in getting all the necessary GSs.
-If possible, a Golden Age is really helpful.
-Watch out for the AI getting curaissiers on higher difficulties. Throw some pikes or phants in for defense.

EDIT: This strategy is executable with reasonable consistency on immortal and below. On Deity, I am happy to get Lib at all.

I've got steel on immortal before from lib.

Rainforest map is ideal for good techs from lib because there is so much food (pigs mainly) and rivers for cottages.

Last time I got biology from lib was a OCC on monarch, that was on inland sea though.

Chem will almost always have to be self-researched. This is why I say that a decent economy, usually including a bureaucracy capital, is necessary.


why so? it does require 3GS more [or 2 if you do not bulb lib itself].

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7983575&postcount=20

on immortal i pulled at 715AD which is not bad date at all. Consequently i did not had much stuff to upgrade or GM on hand...

Bulbing chem on the way to Libbing Steel is almost never doable in my experience. I am kinda ashamed to answer this question because I have been meaning to write a strategy articel about Libbing steel for some time now. Oh well, I will answer in brief:

I find that to be the exception - not being able to do it that is. My norm these days it to bulb Rifles between 900-1100 AD on Immortal. Don't know if its worth mentioning but I also always tech Economics before I get Lib. Steel would be much quicker to get.

My normal time line for GS is something like:

900-1000 BC Academy in Capital
100-200 BC bulb Philo - which is crucial that you get before the AIs so they devalue Liberalism
- I always research Music immediately followed by CS, start a GA and switch civics - HR/BUR/CASTE/PACIFISM
- As I'm in my GA I research Nationalism, followed by MC/MACH (usually traded for at least 1 of em)
100-300 BC bulb Paper
200-500 BC bulb Educ 1X
400-600 BC bulb PP 1X
-trade for Fued
- research/trade Guilds
- research banking
- research Economics + free GM for trade mission
- research GP
- research RP
- research Lib
- Free tech = Rifling

If I went for steel I'd simply skip the other stuff and focus on PP, Engineering, Gunpowder, Bulb Chemistry 1X, Liberalism, Free tech Steel. That means you should realistically be able to bulb steel in the 700-800 (and earlier) range on a consistant basis.

You can't bulb chemistry unless you have printing press. It's impossible.

Chemistry requires engineering, which requires machinery, which along with paper unlocks printing press (might need alphabet too but that would win in the bulb preferences too). You can't skip paper since IIRC that would bulb first too (and then you'd not be able to take steel with lib). Printing press bulbs before chemistry in priority, so unless you have it or trade for it you have to get that first.

Ok.. RAGE!!!!:aargh::gripe:

I tried this out on my next game, used Saladin, got great start. Did everything almost flawless (only missed out on mids by 8 turns). BUT THEN
I missed Biology on 2 turns!
TWO!
Behold, you will see two GS sitting in the background waiting to instabulb Sci met, and I got 1 turn remaining to research lib!
And loosing Lib in 1050 on Immortal is also crappy


http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/403/civ4screenshot0359.jpg (http://img382.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0359.jpg/)


SIGH, he could have gone for astro, he could have gone for gunpowder/chemistry!! :(

If they "can research" lib for more than 3 turns or so, it's probably time to finish your last turn in it and take the best you can get.

No sense letting someone else get it and trade the resulting tech around to civs you don't want advancing. Even if you have to take it just to deny the AI it's better than letting them get it...and that's even more true when planning war and trying to play keep-away in terms of military techs.

Ya ofc, this was just a testrun, and I skipped courthouses so I did not have enough spy points to put on Willem.

Just reload (YES!) bulb chemistry, take lib + steel and teach WIllem some lessons for taking away my pride.