Ah, that did the trick rather nicely. Thanks Randomness.

How about the ability to build watchtowers? It would be buildable just like a fort, needs a certain tech (Optics?) and increases the visibility range of the units stationed.

I think it would be a great tool to spot enemy attacks earlier. Another prerequisite could be that they're only buildable on hills.

Actually had a plan for those. :lol: One of the modcomps I want to merge includes code to allow a different version of upgradeable improvement... Improvements you have to build on top of other improvements. Watchtowers will require hills and a fort... Except for recon civs, who will be able to skip the fort.

Also, anyone have opinions one way or the other about the Pristinus Pass idea I posted?

@Valkrionn. I love the idea of an epic fort with the items and the trade off.

I like the Pristinus idea well enough, but still have the notion that whatever happens (whether various items, a cool fort commander, whatever), some small "bonus" ought be available especially for Luchiurp, or I suppose anyone who controls some golems (like Decius the Conqueror of Luchiurp cities, same would go for Father Kashghenal (sp?)). Don't know what the special effect might be, could be that the Golem race's "no XP" penalty is removed for that golem, dunno.

What is the Prerequ for Trygyvvi (sp)? I can't seem to ever get them.

I wonder if Valkiron has seen this yet...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330830&highlight=Yokaido

Probobly not as he hasn't stolen, I mean, borrowed it with premission and credit to the original creator:rolleyes:...

Actually, I have one of the first posts on that thread. :lol:

That said... There are quite a few civs I haven't included. Mimic's Jernoran (Halfling) civ, quite a few of Cyther's from Rise of Darkness, and the newer ones for FF... Although I'm planning on including the Tears, and at least WANT to include the Hamstalfar... Only haven't because it has almost nothing to it... Would have to basically make the civ. :lol:

Mostly, I want to be able to play a civ before I include it, and can't ATM. I really don't want anymore 'cookie-cutter' civs, with just one or two UU's and a new name.... Which means I doubt I'd include the Jernoran, but might include the Yokaido... At the least I like the idea. :goodjob:

Edit: Forgot to say... The Luchuirp will have a better Fort Commander in the Pristinus Pass then others.

Cookie cutter? Nice :D

I was thinking... how about a 'researcher guild'? Out of all the great persons, the great sages are my least favorite. Sure, the research academy which gives +50% :science: is nice, but it's really only useful for your 1-3 biggest cities with lots of science.

And since AV is the religion you rather avoid than found, his special building is rather useless too.
Sages are not bad, they just pale in comparison with the other great persons.

So how about another new guild which work just like the Masquerade/Stonefire etc...? Some kind of researcher guild that gives :science: and :gold:? The bonus could be increased by collecting rare resources like copper, iron, mushrooms, pearls, Scion artifacts, fruit of Ygdrassil (sp?)...

What is the Prerequ for Trygyvvi (sp)? I can't seem to ever get them.


DO you have a Master Siegesmith? That would probably be what is hanging you up.

I was thinking... how about a 'researcher guild'? Out of all the great persons, the great sages are my least favorite. Sure, the research academy which gives +50% :science: is nice, but it's really only useful for your 1-3 biggest cities with lots of science.

And since AV is the religion you rather avoid than found, his special building is rather useless too.
Sages are not bad, they just pale in comparison with the other great persons.

So how about another new guild which work just like the Masquerade/Stonefire etc...? Some kind of researcher guild that gives :science: and :gold:? The bonus could be increased by collecting rare resources like copper, iron, mushrooms, pearls, Scion artifacts, fruit of Ygdrassil (sp?)...

That's actually a good idea IMHO, I've felt too the limited usefulness of GS in the mid-late game (compared to other Gps, obviously...).
But actually I'd prefer something along the line of a new "Master building". Since we have one for each unitclass, how about a true magic items shop?
It would boost research and gold income, and allow you to buy things like healing salves (maybe only the minor version) ,all those nifty items that you only get once every 100 games (like the ring that allows to ignore terrains cost and such)... and maybe new toys, like recall amulet that allows a single use of dimensional 1 (escape), magicl statues that allows a single use of a summon and so on......

Just my two cents here!

That's actually a good idea IMHO, I've felt too the limited usefulness of GS in the mid-late game (compared to other Gps, obviously...).
But actually I'd prefer something along the line of a new "Master building". Since we have one for each unitclass, how about a true magic items shop?
It would boost research and gold income, and allow you to buy things like healing salves (maybe only the minor version) ,all those nifty items that you only get once every 100 games (like the ring that allows to ignore terrains cost and such)... and maybe new toys, like recall amulet that allows a single use of dimensional 1 (escape), magicl statues that allows a single use of a summon and so on......

Just my two cents here!

Thank you for reminding me about that! I had a similar idea a while ago, but I had forgotten all about it. Now that I'm learning modules, I will go cook something up. Allowing the purchase of some magic items is a good idea, I will use it.

Thank you for reminding me about that! I had a similar idea a while ago, but I had forgotten all about it. Now that I'm learning modules, I will go cook something up. Allowing the purchase of some magic items is a good idea, I will use it.

:)
Whenever you feel like starting a "More magical Items Brainstorming" thread I'll be there throwing around some of my crappy ideas...

DO you have a Master Siegesmith? That would probably be what is hanging you up.

I have one.

I have one.

How about the Blasting Powder and Machinery techs? Is the deadeye you are upgrading level 6?

How about the Blasting Powder and Machinery techs? Is the deadeye you are upgrading level 6?

The civilopedia shows Tryggvi as "cannot be built by any civilization". That might be the problem.

im not shure this is intended or not, but i have been playing the mechanos alot, and i have found that because all their mana is turned into refined mana that, especially in big games, the mana affinity becomes pretty beefy. last game i had so much refined mana that i pushed about 1800+ beakers of reasearch and had some pretty scary units.

im thinking that for next game i will increase the difficulty, that should help alot, but i just thought i would mention incase it was not intended

also, orthos axe + the werewolf hero = LOL

check it out

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=226495&stc=1&d=1251747020

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=226496&stc=1&d=1251747020

this was my last lan game with my friend

How about the Blasting Powder and Machinery techs? Is the deadeye you are upgrading level 6?

...Oh. I didn't see it anywhere that the Unit needed to be level 6. Also, the Deadeye entry shows it upgrading to nothing.

I like a 'Master Enchanter' building, myself... Have it require Enchantment mana, and then have different items/promotions you can buy based on what mana you have.

As for the Mechanos... Yeah, have plans to tone it down. Until Xienwolf upgrades the affinity code, I think I'll have a promotion applied to all units that currently have the Refined Mana affinity. It will run a bit of python each turn, adding some ranged attack to the unit... exactamount will vary based on number of mana, and what I feel is balanced. :lol:

Maybe .25-.5 ranged attack per mana, with the first granting 2?

I like the idea of a Master Enchanter too! However, would you sacrifice someone to get it? None of the Great People necessarily fit. Sacrificing an Archmage with Enchantment III would be kind of sad. However, maybe if an Archmage with Enchantment III could sit in a city, cast "Enchanter's Forge" or something similar to have a fake building that vanishes if he leaves the city, could be cool. Pump out some odds and ends items, like weapons and/or armor with mana affinities, potions, whatever you care to blow gold on. They appear on whichever unit you selected to do the spending on, but can be dropped like an Orthus Axe maybe?

Anyhow, I know I commented on a variation of this topic way earlier in this thread, I just feel that a Spellstaff is such a boring pinnacle for the third tier of Enchantment. Give me something that resembles an event reward, dungeon reward, portable wonder like a Lyre etc., much more fun.

Edit: Y'know the Silver Circle and how the "Enchanter's Enclave" building can be built by the wandering guys? Maybe have those capable of creating some weak items like Healing Salves or something on a trial basis?

I like a 'Master Enchanter' building, myself... Have it require Enchantment mana, and then have different items/promotions you can buy based on what mana you have.


Mmh I cannot avoid thinking about my Amurites, wich usually end up with all the different mana (Thanks Wild Mana!!!), and what would the menu of a unit buying something in a city look like (cluttered!)
Maybe giving option based on the PALACE mana would be a better choice, it would also provide a distinguishing feature among civs...

About stationing an Archamage... I would never do that sincerely, the whole Idea started as a way to have some use for Great Sages in the endgame, but that's just an opinion, obviously :)

Sorry for any grammar mistake I made, I just woke up!

...Oh. I didn't see it anywhere that the Unit needed to be level 6. Also, the Deadeye entry shows it upgrading to nothing.


Sounds like a bug. I will fix.

It would require sacrificing an Archmage.

Hmm... Could maybe open an event window to prevent it being too cluttered... Might be a good way to do the other buildings too.

I like the idea of a Master Enchanter too! However, would you sacrifice someone to get it? None of the Great People necessarily fit. Sacrificing an Archmage with Enchantment III would be kind of sad. However, maybe if an Archmage with Enchantment III could sit in a city, cast "Enchanter's Forge" or something similar to have a fake building that vanishes if he leaves the city, could be cool. Pump out some odds and ends items, like weapons and/or armor with mana affinities, potions, whatever you care to blow gold on. They appear on whichever unit you selected to do the spending on, but can be dropped like an Orthus Axe maybe?

Anyhow, I know I commented on a variation of this topic way earlier in this thread, I just feel that a Spellstaff is such a boring pinnacle for the third tier of Enchantment. Give me something that resembles an event reward, dungeon reward, portable wonder like a Lyre etc., much more fun.

Edit: Y'know the Silver Circle and how the "Enchanter's Enclave" building can be built by the wandering guys? Maybe have those capable of creating some weak items like Healing Salves or something on a trial basis?

Mmh I cannot avoid thinking about my Amurites, wich usually end up with all the different mana (Thanks Wild Mana!!!), and what would the menu of a unit buying something in a city look like (cluttered!)
Maybe giving option based on the PALACE mana would be a better choice, it would also provide a distinguishing feature among civs...

About stationing an Archamage... I would never do that sincerely, the whole Idea started as a way to have some use for Great Sages in the endgame, but that's just an opinion, obviously :)

Sorry for any grammar mistake I made, I just woke up!
Just to clarify: the module I'm working on (should finish it today unless something goes wrong) is intended specifically to use Great Sages. I'm giving them several buildings, one of which will let you purchase (at really high prices) magic items that you might find in dungeons.
Mana will not be involved, but if I make new items there might be civ-specific ones. I'm specifically not touching actual magic because I'm still working on a separate overhaul of it (although an idea remarkably similar to the Enchanter's Forge is a part of it).

Tangential to the Enchanter conversation...now that Great Commanders are units that stick around and do interesting stuff after they build their special building it might be fun to do the same thing with the other Great Persons. Great Bard could be much weaker version of Pelemoc (boost friendly city or annoy enemy cities), Great Prophet could be a disciple unit, Great Sage could be an arcane unit, Great engineer could be a super-worker, Great Merchant could be a recon unit that explores enemy territory. Perhaps the Great Merchant could create a route as he moves...establishing trade routes.

Just to clarify: the module I'm working on (should finish it today unless something goes wrong) is intended specifically to use Great Sages. I'm giving them several buildings, one of which will let you purchase (at really high prices) magic items that you might find in dungeons.
Mana will not be involved, but if I make new items there might be civ-specific ones. I'm specifically not touching actual magic because I'm still working on a separate overhaul of it (although an idea remarkably similar to the Enchanter's Forge is a part of it).

Oh, but that's really what I had in mind plus several building!
What a nice clarification :) , would you mind some spoilers for the other building, or is asking too much...?

Oh, but that's really what I had in mind plus several building!
What a nice clarification :) , would you mind some spoilers for the other building, or is asking too much...?
The plan is:
Martyr's Ward - Provides some minor magical defenses.
Controlled Rift - Requires Pass Through the Ether, allows continual dungeon exploration.
Djinni Bazaar - Allows the purchase of magic items.
Maybe one more if I come up with a good idea before I finish.

@Vermicious - Sounds fine to me, with one point: Unlike the commanders, other GPs have useful city abilities. I'd make them choose... Say, allow them to upgrade? The upgrade will have some city affects, or be a mage, or whatever.

As for the master enchanter... Generic items wouldn't require a mana type. Poisoned weapons should need nature mana though, and so should other enhancements like it. Fire with fire, ice with ice, and so on.

How about this: After building the master enchanter, your units in the city can cast an 'Enchantment' spell. This opens up an event window, populated by those upgrades you qualify for. Some will be cheap, some expensive, and the best will be both expensive and require a wait time (apply temp hold promo). Some could even be one of a kind items, as doing it via event lets me use python... And could let me check all sorts of thimgs. Maybe apply a promo to a unit that kills a hero, allowing them a non-tradeable item...

Edit: Better example of python reqs. Could allow items for having killed a specific civ (Something allowing you to command undead for killimg D'tesh?) or for owning a UF. Or virtually anything else. :lol:

The More Great Sage Buildings module is complete:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333863

Has anyone else been having issues with Worker AI? I've tried games both with and without the Expanded Improvements module, and automated workers seem very confused. They pick 2-3 plots per city and work them almost exclusively, putting down one improvement and then almost immediately replacing it with something else. If there's a tundra resource, they will loop between Camp & Yaranga; another frequent loop is cottage/workshop. This is especially annoying since WS is very slow to build in the early game. I've also seen them take the most productive non-resource plot in a BFC, and decide to drop a fort on it (wiping out the improvement that made it so productive).

As a quick fix, I would suggest that workers prioritize unimproved plots, so that they're at least adding new improvements instead of spending all their time on already functioning plots. After that, we can sit them down for some therapy, and discover why they love workshops and lumbermills so much in the early game.

(apologies if this has already been addressed, or if it's a base FF issue - I play FFP more or less exclusively these days)

I think that the few regular (non-hero units) that gain hero-like levels should be able to premote to battle hardend (the promo used on Lucian that gives free xp to 50). I don't know which level it should be avalible at, but it would be cool if my level 6 archer (level put out of thin air, I don't know what level 50 xp is...) could get a boost for the next couple of levels. It wouldn't really be OP, because it wouldn't give you that many levels, and you would have to spend a promo on it. Just an idea to make your already super units, a little more heroic...

Has anyone else been having issues with Worker AI? I've tried games both with and without the Expanded Improvements module, and automated workers seem very confused. They pick 2-3 plots per city and work them almost exclusively, putting down one improvement and then almost immediately replacing it with something else. If there's a tundra resource, they will loop between Camp & Yaranga; another frequent loop is cottage/workshop. This is especially annoying since WS is very slow to build in the early game. I've also seen them take the most productive non-resource plot in a BFC, and decide to drop a fort on it (wiping out the improvement that made it so productive).

As a quick fix, I would suggest that workers prioritize unimproved plots, so that they're at least adding new improvements instead of spending all their time on already functioning plots. After that, we can sit them down for some therapy, and discover why they love workshops and lumbermills so much in the early game.

(apologies if this has already been addressed, or if it's a base FF issue - I play FFP more or less exclusively these days)

you should always play with "workers leave old improvements" on imho.

As well as the option that makes them not clear forests.

Bah! Forests. Burn them for the pyres, or clear them and build massive crypts. And if there are elves on the plot allready.... bonus. :D

Gekko;8420872']you should always play with "workers leave old improvements" on imho.

Yikes.. don't know how I failed to notice that getting turned off, but it made the difference. Well played, message board, well played.

After making a few tweaks to the AI tech paths I started to notice that the Khazad were consistently tech leaders, then I encountered this on Monarch difficulty:

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4791/stackofhax.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/i/stackofhax.jpg/)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6686/fortsftw.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/fortsftw.jpg/)

It seems that with the Khazad having almost no limit to where they can build forts, they are cramming them on every square and getting ridiculous yields from most tiles (5/5/5 on average). Its become so common that I am limited to leaving them out of my games completely. I suggest some sort of spacing limit somewhat like pirate coves, that would be more balanced imo.

The images are too small to make out on an iPhone, but I assume you mean the Dwarven Forts? They are SUPPOSED to be limited like Pirate Coves.... Was working last version. Anyone else having this issue?

Just to be clear, they have a large enough distance req that you can fit 4 in your cross... But it normally works out to three because of nearby cities or a mountain.

i just gave it a quick check and i couldent build them everywhere, could it be that one of the "no building requirements for ai" things is doing it?

No, it's run via python, with no check for human or AI. Should work for both... Confused as to why it failed there.

Where is the Python for that check? Maybe I can take a look and see if anything is amiss.

CanBuild, I believe... Whichever one that handles where an improvement can be built.

Ok, well the code looks fine but I just loaded up as Khazad and could build them anywhere I wanted. Im going to make another fresh installation of FFPlus to make sure the problem isnt there.

Request - please merge Civ Style Mod!

I'll be merging a few of them at least, if not all. ;)

Ideas -

The Dragon Bones... if someone strolled along with Life III or Death III and cast a particular spell on that spot, "something interesting could happen", though I bet there's a big dependency upon art. Basically thinking in terms of a poor man's living dragon hero (possibly with some problems like weakness, that it gets dazed and nonresponsive from time to time) or something like a dracolich if going down an undead path, but again, with some possible weaknesses due to the thing basically being salvage with maybe missing parts. If art makes it easier, recoloring a skin of an existing dragon to ugly mossy tones of some sort and saying "hey it's a zombie" would work out I guess.

Thought simply crossed my mind when I had Sphener and his Life III, and thought "my hero isn't likely to die anytime soon, and there's no graveyards anymore."

I'm already planning for the Bezeri to have a distinct FoL leaning... In that vein, I'd been thinking about what FoL Kelp should do. I'm thinking an upgrade to a Kelp Forest should be okay. :lol:

Using this graphic: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4291

So, apparently the animations needed to have birds flying around do indeed exist. Should I add hawks to the Animal civ? If so, what stats? Should I add several progressions?

So, apparently the animations needed to have birds flying around do indeed exist. Should I add hawks to the Animal civ? If so, what stats? Should I add several progressions?


Oh hell yeah. :goodjob:


We need a Roc unit, badly. :D


A simple hawk wouldn't be much of a threat...the progression should probably go from Giant Eagle>Flock of Giant Eagles>Roc.


...and now I'm imagining a Jotnar Roc Rider.

The Frozen have a giant eagle, the Aquilan, as one of their UU's... a Knight.

The thing has 7 :strength:, 5 Defensive :strength:, 3 :move:, 2 Lightning :strength: and 2 Ice :strength:. As well as Channeling 1 + 2, and starting with Ice 1. :eek:

I like the Roc idea though. :lol:

I'd leave the poor thing alone as far as the Jotnar are concerned though... Unless you want a team of Rocs, holding up a gondola. That way you could transport several giants, rather than one.... :evil:

The Frozen have a giant eagle, the Aquilan, as one of their UU's... a Knight.

The thing has 7 :strength:, 5 Defensive :strength:, 3 :move:, 2 Lightning :strength: and 2 Ice :strength:. As well as Channeling 1 + 2, and starting with Ice 1. :eek:

I like the Roc idea though. :lol:

I'd leave the poor thing alone as far as the Jotnar are concerned though... Unless you want a team of Rocs, holding up a gondola. That way you could transport several giants, rather than one.... :evil:


Ouch. That is brutal. I like it. :D


Yeah...the mounted line idea we discussed will be the final major Jotnar addition. It won't involves Gondolas...unless someone makes the art and twists my arm.

I think I prefer the original idea anyway. :lol:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, so I'll mention it anyway.

I love the Doviello I think that they are now very flavourful and enjoyable in their own right. One thing however, that I think affects the Illians to an extent also, is the Yaranga improvement. Dont get me wrong, I have long thought that there should have been an improvement best suited to ice for those civs who prefer to dwell there. In its current implementation though it is a little unrefined imo.

I play using end of winter meaning that due to the Yaranga being buildable in forests, it is clearly the improvement of choice on icy forested tiles. However as the world defrosts you will find you are running out of time before you cant put any more down, this also makes them uniquely valuable if the tile has defrosted as they cannot be replaced and the only other option, in forests, is a lumbermill which require a later technology to build in a reasonable time.

So my suggestion would be to make them buildable anywhere, but reduce the bonus for non ice/tundra tiles.

If this has been covered in the new optional improvements module I apologise for this wall of text.

Actually... Going a different route with that. Let's just say, it should satisfy any complaints and will be available in the next version. :lol:

I normally play at Noble difficulty (and reload constantly)

I am playing a new game of the Jotnar. I chose Emperor and have MINIMIZED my reloads, only twice thus far and one of those was due to a misclick by me.

I am by far 1st on the leader board and the tech leader as well as doing very well on the military front. The only thing holding me back from word domination right now is lack of gold to upgrade most of my citizens to combat units.

I don't think I could do this with any other race. I want to say the jotnar are over powered but it MIGHT be that they simply fit my style. I hate sacrificing units. I keep every unit alive as long as possible which seems to fit this race.

Not a complaint, just feedback

They're being tweaked a bit more soon... Some nerf, some not. :lol:

I normally play at Noble difficulty (and reload constantly)

I am playing a new game of the Jotnar. I chose Emperor and have MINIMIZED my reloads, only twice thus far and one of those was due to a misclick by me.

I am by far 1st on the leader board and the tech leader as well as doing very well on the military front. The only thing holding me back from word domination right now is lack of gold to upgrade most of my citizens to combat units.

I don't think I could do this with any other race. I want to say the jotnar are over powered but it MIGHT be that they simply fit my style. I hate sacrificing units. I keep every unit alive as long as possible which seems to fit this race.

Not a complaint, just feedback


A couple of things will be changing that should help with making them more challenging to play. Spamming cities will be MUCH more difficult, for one. I'm playing a test game at Diety...and I'm running 3rd.

Is there any area where you feel like you are particularly strong? Any units seem overpowered?

Every Hurler gets Stormkin - I LOVE the +1 range but it may be a bit much
Every 4th or so melee gets stonekin - and gaurdian... good for defense
Every other unit gets Firekin - lots of fireballs
Every Troll but 1 gets Forestkin - strong and stealthy
That other troll gets Seakin - builds sea farms and roads in EVERY water tile in my culture.
Every city seems to have 3 or 4 citizens sitting in them gaining exp and adding hammers.


A couple of these I mentioned before so I apologize for repetition.

I have
- 24 citizens
- 3 Troll hunters
- 7 Hurlers
- 2 Homesteaders (forts that I am just waiting for to upgrade to towns)
- 1 Deadeye
- 2 hill giants (Larry and Moe... R.I.P. Curly) No Iron... yet
- 1 Huscarl
- 3 mouth of the divine (one is The Founder World Unit)
- 1 voice of the divine
- 1 Slogerkkerr (ack god help anyone that gets that in a spelling contest)
- 15 or so captured units from command and using 1 great commander to recruit in a city once wont do that again. I really don't use these units for squat. THESE are my suicide units.


7 cities - Built 3 with settlers, 2 with forts (so far) and took 2 via conquest. To me that doesn't feel like I am spamming them.

To me, the reason I feel powerful is large units, but lots of them.

Founder is 10/12 He will be 12/14 once upgraded from Mouth of Divine to Voice of Divine
Hurlers are 7/12
Deadeye is 10/15 - Currently he is at Max Range damage of 85% but I will get Archery 3 soon and it will be 95%

Once I get Iron The melee line get a big bump.

I don't mind the powerful units but I don't feel bad if I lose one other than extra exp/gold loss. There are PLENTY of Citizens waiting in the wings to take their spot all gaining age and exp so when they step up it isn't TOO big of loss. (please dont read that as I want citizens not to age or gain exp as neither is TOO fast or powerful, but it does currently soften the loss of using one to replace a combat loss)

MY suggestions (Sorry for repeats from before)
- Make Citizens spawn Percentage chance lower. 1/2 the current after you have 2 citizens per city.
- Make Trolls and Troll Hunters count against the limit.
- Limit Sea farms. Either ONLY in BFC or can't put next to another, like baby pirate coves.
- Make Kinships not give all their abilities at purchase. Give all most of the stat changes but make the Spell like abilities a promo that has a prereq of that Kinship and has to be purchased at level up.

Fireball = 1 promo From Firekin
Soak and submerge = 1 promo From Seakin
+1 range = 1 Promo from stormkin
Poison blade and bloom = 1 Promo from Forrestkin
Create hill = 1 Promo from Stonekin
Summon Lightening Elementals and Windtalkers = 1 Promo from Stormkin


Basically it would mean to get full advantage of the kinship they would have to spend 1 or 2 promos in addition to the gold. Would still allow them to be powerful but require more investment by the effective loss of a level to flush the kinship out.

I think the simple reduction of Citizens by making trolls count, slower spawn rate, and bigger investment in kinships would all make a good dent in feeling each unit was more valuable.

Put off work on the Better Pedia for a bit, and worked on the Mechanos Affinity.

Mechanics: All units that currently have a refined mana affinity, now have a pyperturn tag that checks the number of Refined mana you have, and then applies a stackable promo for each one. This promo adds one ranged attack, and 5% ranged combat limit... Thinking of upping that to 10. All units affected gain one range, and an initial 10% combat limit.

Had to jump through hoops to get the stack promotions removed each turn.... Got it working in the end. Had to be removed in order to prevent the promo from stacking higher each turn, or causing issues with gaining/losing manas. Hoping for a more elegant solution than the way I did it, but it works for now.

Probably going to do something similiar with the D'tesh. ;)

Mechanics: All units that currently have a refined mana affinity, now have a pyperturn tag that checks the number of Refined mana you have, and then applies a stackable promo for each one. This promo adds one ranged attack, and 5% ranged combat limit... Thinking of upping that to 10. All units affected gain one range, and an initial 10% combat limit.

Had to jump through hoops to get the stack promotions removed each turn.... Got it working in the end. Had to be removed in order to prevent the promo from stacking higher each turn, or causing issues with gaining/losing manas. Hoping for a more elegant solution than the way I did it, but it works for now.

If that causes slowdowns there is another obvious way to do it. Binary.

Create four (or more) promotions, "Refined mana 1", "Refined mana 2", "Refined mana 4" and "Refined mana 8". Then at the start of each turn, calculate the appropriate combintion of promotions and apply it to all units.

Psuedo code:

iMaxMana = 10 # Or some other max, just as long as there are sufficient promotions.
iRefinedMana = max( getNumRefinedMana(), iMaxMana )
grantPromotions = [ ( bool( iRefinedMana & ( 2**power ) ), gc.getInfoForString( 'PROMOTION_REFINED_MANA%i' % 2**power ) ) for power in xrange( math.ceil( math.log(iMaxMana +1,2)) ) ]
for unit in affectedUnits:
for hasPromotion, promotion in grantPromotions:
unit.setHasPromotion( promotion, hasPromotion )

Every Hurler gets Stormkin - I LOVE the +1 range but it may be a bit much
Every 4th or so melee gets stonekin - and gaurdian... good for defense
Every other unit gets Firekin - lots of fireballs
Every Troll but 1 gets Forestkin - strong and stealthy
That other troll gets Seakin - builds sea farms and roads in EVERY water tile in my culture.
Every city seems to have 3 or 4 citizens sitting in them gaining exp and adding hammers.


A couple of these I mentioned before so I apologize for repetition.

I have
- 24 citizens
- 3 Troll hunters
- 7 Hurlers
- 2 Homesteaders (forts that I am just waiting for to upgrade to towns)
- 1 Deadeye
- 2 hill giants (Larry and Moe... R.I.P. Curly) No Iron... yet
- 1 Huscarl
- 3 mouth of the divine (one is The Founder World Unit)
- 1 voice of the divine
- 1 Slogerkkerr (ack god help anyone that gets that in a spelling contest)
- 15 or so captured units from command and using 1 great commander to recruit in a city once wont do that again. I really don't use these units for squat. THESE are my suicide units.


7 cities - Built 3 with settlers, 2 with forts (so far) and took 2 via conquest. To me that doesn't feel like I am spamming them.

To me, the reason I feel powerful is large units, but lots of them.

Founder is 10/12 He will be 12/14 once upgraded from Mouth of Divine to Voice of Divine
Hurlers are 7/12
Deadeye is 10/15 - Currently he is at Max Range damage of 85% but I will get Archery 3 soon and it will be 95%

Once I get Iron The melee line get a big bump.

I don't mind the powerful units but I don't feel bad if I lose one other than extra exp/gold loss. There are PLENTY of Citizens waiting in the wings to take their spot all gaining age and exp so when they step up it isn't TOO big of loss. (please dont read that as I want citizens not to age or gain exp as neither is TOO fast or powerful, but it does currently soften the loss of using one to replace a combat loss)

MY suggestions (Sorry for repeats from before)
- Make Citizens spawn Percentage chance lower. 1/2 the current after you have 2 citizens per city.
- Make Trolls and Troll Hunters count against the limit.
- Limit Sea farms. Either ONLY in BFC or can't put next to another, like baby pirate coves.
- Make Kinships not give all their abilities at purchase. Give all most of the stat changes but make the Spell like abilities a promo that has a prereq of that Kinship and has to be purchased at level up.

Fireball = 1 promo From Firekin
Soak and submerge = 1 promo From Seakin
+1 range = 1 Promo from stormkin
Poison blade and bloom = 1 Promo from Forrestkin
Create hill = 1 Promo from Stonekin
Summon Lightening Elementals and Windtalkers = 1 Promo from Stormkin


Basically it would mean to get full advantage of the kinship they would have to spend 1 or 2 promos in addition to the gold. Would still allow them to be powerful but require more investment by the effective loss of a level to flush the kinship out.

I think the simple reduction of Citizens by making trolls count, slower spawn rate, and bigger investment in kinships would all make a good dent in feeling each unit was more valuable.

Hmmm. Doable. I could just create one promo (Elemental Magic?) that is an additional requirement for all of those spells. Set Elementalism as the req for the promo.

Additional range for stormkin...may be broken, but I'm keeping it. :D

Trolls DO count, so far as I know. The equation just counts units with Jot Giantkin. In any case the spawn rate is definitely reduced in the next version.

Sea farms are going to be slower to build and won't bump commerce. Once we incorporate Opera's new tags they won't pop resources either...they'll just be eligible for spread.

You are also going to notice in the next version that their population grows slower...3 food per population. There is another balance change that goes with it...I'll leave it as a surprise. :mischief:

Maintenance for number of cities will be jacked WAY up as well...right now I'm testing it at 400%. :crazyeye:

If that causes slowdowns there is another obvious way to do it. Binary.

Create four (or more) promotions, "Refined mana 1", "Refined mana 2", "Refined mana 4" and "Refined mana 8". Then at the start of each turn, calculate the appropriate combintion of promotions and apply it to all units.

Psuedo code:

iMaxMana = 10 # Or some other max, just as long as there are sufficient promotions.
iRefinedMana = max( getNumRefinedMana(), iMaxMana )
grantPromotions = [ ( bool( iRefinedMana & ( 2**power ) ), gc.getInfoForString( 'PROMOTION_REFINED_MANA%i' % 2**power ) ) for power in xrange( math.ceil( math.log(iMaxMana +1,2)) ) ]
for unit in affectedUnits:
for hasPromotion, promotion in grantPromotions:
unit.setHasPromotion( promotion, hasPromotion )


Actually, it doesn't slow the game at all. Most of the affected units are limited, after all. It counts every mana you get too. :lol:

My only complaint is the method I had to use of dropping the promotions... Causes issues with equipment.

Hmmm. Doable. I could just create one promo (Elemental Magic?) that is an additional requirement for all of those spells. Set Elementalism as the req for the promo.

Additional range for stormkin...may be broken, but I'm keeping it. :D
Oh I love it, I would just move it to requiring an extra promo, maybe a prereq of Archery (what ever level)

Trolls DO count, so far as I know. The equation just counts units with Jot Giantkin. In any case the spawn rate is definitely reduced in the next version.

I swear I read that Jotnar specific thread they didn't but I jsut went and reread it and I was wrong. It clearly says they do. Sorry. What is the limit again? 4/city +4? 5/city +4? By my count I have 40 + 3 heros (that shouldn't count) That woudl be 5/city +5.

Sea farms are going to be slower to build and won't bump commerce. Once we incorporate Opera's new tags they won't pop resources either...they'll just be eligible for spread.

I think the 1st 2 items there are good. I don't understand the pop vs spread. It can only gain the resource of an adjacent resource so if it isn't near one it can't get anything? Not too bad a trade off. Currently my capital has 4 water tiles, lighthouse, and Herons Throne. All 4 have popped resources of various kinds. My capital is size 16 and climbing.

You are also going to notice in the next version that their population grows slower...3 food per population. There is another balance change that goes with it...I'll leave it as a surprise. :mischief:

ewww That I will not be looking forward too. The cities are pretty gimp as is, with the increased maintenance and lower income from sea farms they will get gimpier. Will have to see how that plays out.

Maintenance for number of cities will be jacked WAY up as well...right now I'm testing it at 400%. :crazyeye:

I actually think that will be doable with their various Palaces.

One other thing you MIGHT conciser is doing something with Happiness and Healthiness. I am not sure how or what, but Happiness and Healthiness are NEVER an issue for me. 32 :) 15:( etc. Is there anyway to add 2 :( and 2 :yuck: per tile range to the next city less than 5? If it were per city that was too close it could really add up, sure there is a buffer but could make some of the buildings more worthwhile. Would encourage more spaced out cities and thus less spam.

Pop vs spread means that it won't find resources you don't have... Rather, it will spread resources you DO have. If you don't have a source of crabs you won't find any... But you will be able to spread your fish if you already have some.

Trust me, the cities will not be gimped. ;) Of course, I already know the surprise. :lol:

Put off work on the Better Pedia for a bit, and worked on the Mechanos Affinity.

Mechanics: All units that currently have a refined mana affinity, now have a pyperturn tag that checks the number of Refined mana you have, and then applies a stackable promo for each one. This promo adds one ranged attack, and 5% ranged combat limit... Thinking of upping that to 10. All units affected gain one range, and an initial 10% combat limit.

Had to jump through hoops to get the stack promotions removed each turn.... Got it working in the end. Had to be removed in order to prevent the promo from stacking higher each turn, or causing issues with gaining/losing manas. Hoping for a more elegant solution than the way I did it, but it works for now.

Probably going to do something similiar with the D'tesh. ;)

So, I was right. Xienwolf DID put in a method to remove all of a stacked promotion via python, so the 'hoop jumping' was apparently for nothing. :lol: At the least, no more having to make a new unit and copy over all stats but the stack promo... Which means no issue with equipment. :goodjob:

Never mind, had to revert to my original system. Apparently there's an issue with removing the stack promos... Technically, the unit has the correct amount, but the stats don't go down on removal.

Also, decided to cut some content from the better pedia merge until I have more time to rewrite it. No dll work, so the build popup will not be affected... Only the pedia.

I'm also upgrading the way Grey Fox divided some sections... For example, rather than Civ Hero, Religious Hero, and Other, I'm adding Lesser and Barbarian. In spells, I'll add Divine if it's not already there, and add a division for Mechanos 'spells'.

You might divide spells and abilities too.

Never mind, had to revert to my original system. Apparently there's an issue with removing the stack promos...

Vindication for the binary system!

Vindication for the binary system!

:lol: To be honest, at first I wasn't quite sure of what you had meant with the last post... 1,2,4, and 8? :lol: Went back and reread it, realized you meant to factor it. :blush: Would have to learn the python, but yes, that's the way I'm going to go for now. To be honest, the only language I have actual training in is Visual Basic 6. Picking up the others as I go. :lol:

@Opera: Not a bad idea, actually. Will do it.

Pop vs spread means that it won't find resources you don't have... Rather, it will spread resources you DO have. If you don't have a source of crabs you won't find any... But you will be able to spread your fish if you already have some.

Ahh that makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Will that apply to your Improvement mod changes? Will building a farm only pop corn/wheat/rice you already have? What about Mining? It has never worked that way. Does that mean making mines on every hill outside any city BFC will not ever get me the chance at a new mining resource I don't have? (admittedly it rarely does as is)

Mines and other mineral improvements will function as they do now. Still need the tech to discover an appropriate resource, but no other limits. All food improvements will switch to the new system. Makes more sense for them, I believe.

sounds great

Yeah, you can breed cattle, but when can breed copper, somethings wrong.;)

While on the subject of improvements. Something that has always bothered me is the Gunpowder resource, it just doesnt make much sense mining refined explosive powder straight out of the ground.

Maybe that has already been considered so ill reserve my suggestions for alternatives.

I found a modcomp that lets buildings 'consume' a resource to put a different resource out. Could you use that? Using unrefined gunpowder, than building something that takes your unrefined and changes it to the current resource.

If you want, I cold post the link, if not, It's in the Fallen Ages thread, just after the middle.

x

While on the subject of improvements. Something that has always bothered me is the Gunpowder resource, it just doesnt make much sense mining refined explosive powder straight out of the ground.

None of the resources represent mining the finished product straight from the ground. If it did, there wouldn't be any tech requirement.

Iron resources, for instance, are rich deposits of iron ore that is refined with some technique that becomes common knowledge with Smelting. The Mines of Galdur probably represent a huge natural deposit of pure iron, maybe an iron meterorite.

Bronze undergoes even more implicit treatment, being an alloy of copper and tin. The mine provides copper ore, which is refined and combined with commonly available tin and made into weapons and tools.

Even wheat requires knowledge before a single farm can provide enough to help an entire empire.

That said Gunpowder could do with a renaming. I think Brimstone would be a good name.

how do i change the traits a leader has? like if i want egalitarian on a cabalim leader or something

also, the tyrant promotion for that cabalim leader is really neat, but it currently does not work very well, since it removes all unhappyness it also makes their citys loose the hammer bonus they would normally get, is it possible to make it so that they dont gain penaltys for unhappyness instead of no unhappyness at all? i think there is a wonder or something that does something similar, but only for one city

:eek: Seems rather OP. But fun. :lol:

To change traits, go to Assets/XML/Civilizations/LeaderHeadInfos.xml. Search for the name of the leader you want, and scroll down to where it lists the traits... Then change/add one for Egalitarian.

also, the tyrant promotion for that cabalim leader is really neat, but it currently does not work very well, since it removes all unhappyness it also makes their citys loose the hammer bonus they would normally get, is it possible to make it so that they dont gain penaltys for unhappyness instead of no unhappyness at all? i think there is a wonder or something that does something similar, but only for one city
The only way I know of to do that is to make it apply an absurd number of happiness to the city instead of removing unhappiness.

Actually, the loss of the hammer bonus is intended. It's a balancing factor... Yes, you can get absurdly large cities for feeding, but you lose out on production.

DO you plan to merge Freya's excellent City Style Modmods? :)

Not immediately. For some reason I'm not aware of, FF changed the artstyle names... Or failed to update the names when FfH changed them.

Basically, it is such a massive amount of work to get it merged in that I've put it off for now. :lol:

I'll have a look-see if I can merge them myself :)

:lol: Enjoy. That is all I will say. ;)

Is the first post still fairly up to date? It says its up to date as of the 207th post. This is now post 335. Just curious.

Some has been added, but I need to go through it all again... So not really.

been playing FF+ for the last 3 days - my first time with it (also havent played base Fall Further either before, pretty much been playing Orbis exclusivly before ).

i must say i really, really enjoy it in general and think it may become my favourite mod ( if i can sort out whats causing my crashes ^^)

played a game of bannor until turn 250ish but that got ended by a CTD and loading early saves didnt help it. really liked their "chain of command" though some things wouldnt work:

-the formation promotions that are supposed to give 30% vs either archers, mounted or melee dont do anything. the commander gets them but not the troops.

-arent commander promotions supposed to "trickle" down ? when i had a captain with battle command III all the troops following him would get battle command III.
however as i had a unit following a sergeant ... who was following the captain .... the unit following the sergeant did NOT get battle command III. this isnt intented, is it ?

otherwise really fun though. liked the cleric UU as well. i forgot checking what berserker is used for the bannor ( i m guessing the standard viking looking placeholders ) and if thats the case, consider getting the cool flagellants from orbis.

played a game of austrin until turn 250ish and that one ended not with a CTD but with the good old problem that you end the turn and the waiting for the comp turns into waiting for hell to freeze ;) again loading earlier games helped but by exactly turn 250 the waiting error would occur again. i ve had this occur to me a few times in orbis too though.

interesting new civ, fun to play, probably a bit OP in the early game but cool concept and nice art. normally not a fan of adding new civs but austrin are the 2nd besides Scions that i like. one thing i noticed, since i chose to follow council of esus:
apparently commanders dont get the stealth effect from nox noctis. i think they had the promotion (not 100% sure on that) and the ability to unstealth (pretty sure on this) but enemies would still target them (and only them).

currently playing my old favourite, amurites. fooled around a bit in the worldbuilder and noticed 2 things: their archmage UU (battlemage) used the standard blue robed mage placeholder graphic. why not use the amurite archmage graphic instead ? looks much better fitting - i m guessing this is a bug / oversight.
same for amurite berserkers - they use the viking placeholder art but i remember from orbis (should be in base FFH too though i think) that they normally do have unique art that looks amuritish.

anyhow, great mod thus far - hope the CTD/waiting issues were just bad luck to happen in the first 2 games and i ll be luckier from now on.

EDIT: maybe a bit early for suggestions not understanding all mechanics yet but here goes:

commanders should be able to get the Commando Promotion so they can later on keep up speed with their troops. also there should maybe be someway to get mounted commanders for your cavallery troops. in orbis you can make your paladins/eidolons mounted - so maybe something like this.

EDIT II: doh, i just noticed almost all the things i mentioned are already in the FF bug report thread for fixing, sorry :p

been playing FF+ for the last 3 days - my first time with it (also havent played base Fall Further either before, pretty much been playing Orbis exclusivly before ).

i must say i really, really enjoy it in general and think it may become my favourite mod ( if i can sort out whats causing my crashes ^^)

played a game of bannor until turn 250ish but that got ended by a CTD and loading early saves didnt help it. really liked their "chain of command" though some things wouldnt work:

-the formation promotions that are supposed to give 30% vs either archers, mounted or melee dont do anything. the commander gets them but not the troops.

-arent commander promotions supposed to "trickle" down ? when i had a captain with battle command III all the troops following him would get battle command III.
however as i had a unit following a sergeant ... who was following the captain .... the unit following the sergeant did NOT get battle command III. this isnt intented, is it ?

otherwise really fun though. liked the cleric UU as well. i forgot checking what berserker is used for the bannor ( i m guessing the standard viking looking placeholders ) and if thats the case, consider getting the cool flagellants from orbis.

played a game of austrin until turn 250ish and that one ended not with a CTD but with the good old problem that you end the turn and the waiting for the comp turns into waiting for hell to freeze ;) again loading earlier games helped but by exactly turn 250 the waiting error would occur again. i ve had this occur to me a few times in orbis too though.

interesting new civ, fun to play, probably a bit OP in the early game but cool concept and nice art. normally not a fan of adding new civs but austrin are the 2nd besides Scions that i like. one thing i noticed, since i chose to follow council of esus:
apparently commanders dont get the stealth effect from nox noctis. i think they had the promotion (not 100% sure on that) and the ability to unstealth (pretty sure on this) but enemies would still target them (and only them).

currently playing my old favourite, amurites. fooled around a bit in the worldbuilder and noticed 2 things: their archmage UU (battlemage) used the standard blue robed mage placeholder graphic. why not use the amurite archmage graphic instead ? looks much better fitting - i m guessing this is a bug / oversight.
same for amurite berserkers - they use the viking placeholder art but i remember from orbis (should be in base FFH too though i think) that they normally do have unique art that looks amuritish.

anyhow, great mod thus far - hope the CTD/waiting issues were just bad luck to happen in the first 2 games and i ll be luckier from now on.

EDIT: maybe a bit early for suggestions not understanding all mechanics yet but here goes:

commanders should be able to get the Commando Promotion so they can later on keep up speed with their troops. also there should maybe be someway to get mounted commanders for your cavallery troops. in orbis you can make your paladins/eidolons mounted - so maybe something like this.

EDIT II: doh, i just noticed almost all the things i mentioned are already in the FF bug report thread for fixing, sorry :p

Yeah, these are FF things. ;) As for the Amurites, I actually have that fixed already for the next version... The Battlemage graphic bugged me too. :goodjob:

The formation promos not working is an easy fix. Can't remember exactly what I did, but they work in my internal version...and thus will work in the next release. :)

Commander not being able to hide is something I just noticed in my test game, actually. Should be a way to hide the commander whenever one of his attached units is hidden...

That's half of the reason I'm waiting for the new FF patch to release, even though I'm mostly done with my work.

Commanders authorised for hundreds of promotions and spell effects.

That, and the fix for stackable promotions, so I can include the new Mechanos 'Affinity'.

Is there a difference between Commander and General? Can the Commander also disappear and become a promotion ala Great Gen? Never did try these new toys...

BTW Been looking at DLL Modding and I'm going crazy...

Yes. I don't think Generals are actually in game at all anymore, whereas Commanders can not only gain xp from followers, they have a whole selection of promotions to take.

I think a fitting icon for the desktop shortcut of FF+ would be a Hamstalfar image, like your avatar, Valkrionn. :l

...The sad thing is, I've actually already attempted to find a decent icon program to do just that... :lol:

If someone knows of one, or would be willing to make it, I'd be more than happy to use it. ;)

Swear fealty to GIMP (http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/).

:eekdance:

I only use gimp to convert off-sized images to DDS.. as in, popups for leaders/heroes. :lol: Didn't know it could do icons as well....

Thank you! :lol:

Edit: Does anyone else love the new :eekdance: smiley as much I do? ;)

i thought i would post this picture for a possible new leader, its pretty cool imo. thought you would like it, got it from deviant art. artists name is in the jpg name

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229523&stc=1&d=1254278448

Could you expose the current mod directory to python?

There is currently no good way to get it. Renaming the mod directory (for instance to mod the mod of a modmod...) causes issues if one needs to load stuff in python.

Not quite sure what you mean here, actually. :blush:

About the image... I like it, but there are two issues. One, it would only fit for the Balseraphs... Who already have 6 leaders. Two, it's rather too realistically done to fit with the rest of the art in the game... Neither is much of a problem by themselves, but taken together, I don't think I'll use it.

Not quite sure what you mean here, actually. :blush:


Well, mods are installed in a subdir of Civilization, for instance:

Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall Further Plus or
Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall Further 051

Obviously the dll must know where to load art, xml and stuff, so it must know where all that stuff is located. There is no way to get that path in python though, so one has to rely on hackish methods of looking for marker files, hard coding the moddir in python or creating a replay and extract the information from that.

If you could create a function, for example in CvPythonExtensions.CyGlobalContext that returns this very important information one could load information, configuration for instance, in python without having to worry about the user renaming the directory the mod is located in.

The important part is what subdir of Mods the mod is located in, Fall Further Plus and Fall Further 051 in the examples, Everything else is static and can be added as needed. Obviously an absolute path would work just as well.

(Though I just had an idea about where such information could be hiding right now. I'll check.)

Not sure where to start with that, honestly. I'll try eventually, but at the moment I'm just starting out with C++. Comfortable enough merging files, not quite there with writing them... Which is why I'll be devoting myself to the Bezeri. They'll need a lot of it, so it's a good chance to learn. ;)

Not quite sure what you mean here, actually. :blush:

About the image... I like it, but there are two issues. One, it would only fit for the Balseraphs... Who already have 6 leaders. Two, it's rather too realistically done to fit with the rest of the art in the game... Neither is much of a problem by themselves, but taken together, I don't think I'll use it.



The QoH art could work as a great person... Sage maybe?

Hmm... I could see that, yeah. Not as jarring if it's a GP rather than a leader.

Not quite sure what you mean here, actually. :blush:

About the image... I like it, but there are two issues. One, it would only fit for the Balseraphs... Who already have 6 leaders. Two, it's rather too realistically done to fit with the rest of the art in the game... Neither is much of a problem by themselves, but taken together, I don't think I'll use it.

ah ok, makes sense ;)

When will the armored trait work for the fire giant guy?

What do you mean? It works already. The promotion the trait grants is an Effect, and so doesn't show up on the unit, but they DO gain the weapon promotions... Which is the intended effect.

I've already made it a normal promo rather than effect for the next version though. No promotions granted by traits should be effects in the next release. ;)

What do you mean? It works already. The promotion the trait grants is an Effect, and so doesn't show up on the unit, but they DO gain the weapon promotions... Which is the intended effect.

I've already made it a normal promo rather than effect for the next version though. No promotions granted by traits should be effects in the next release. ;)

:goodjob:

I think Effect promotions suck a bit. I mean, it's nice but it's somehow hiding informations from the player... :(

As for the picture, I know how to use it :) Thanks!

Sometimes they're incredibly useful. For example, when you run out of 'PrereqPromotion' space, you can toss in an effect promo that requires two or three of the prereqs, and use the Effect promo as the new prereq. ;)

Yeah, but here it really is a good-used effect prom. I personally don't like effect prom actually affect my units without me being able to check it quickly... Because I don't know all the stats of each unit :)

I was just just reading this thread and noticed Opera's sig and the ElohimGuardians mod for Orbis. Have you considered the possibility of merging this mod in. I read it and it sounds fantastic. I would love to try it. (I don't know if the author wants it to stay Orbis only).

The other thought I had was possibly tying this different play style to one (new or old) leader only. That would probably require a decent amount of reworking, but the monk unit and unique tech could be tied to a trait could they not? It seems like it would be fun to combine this into a new minor leader for the Elohim.

Personally, I don't much like the mechanic as he implemented it.

For one thing, FF already reworked the Elohim rather extensively to favor UF's, without limiting their empire... They get traits from visiting the features, and a few other bonuses. Monks get much stronger as they level up if you have the appropriate buildings (Up to two spirit mana affinity).

For another, I really dislike the promotion line names for the Monks. The Elohim are based off of European monks, artstyle-wise and building-wise, so why the eastern naming?

One thing I AM doing, however, is adopting his 'Super-Tolerant' effect into the tolerant trait, to differentiate it from Conqueror. Build a city close enough to a foreign city, and you will get an event popup allowing you to make it a city of that nationality... As long as your alignments are compatible (Good can work with Good or Neutral, not Evil. Neutral is all three, Evil is reverse of Good.), and they aren't a summoned/fallow civ. I won't be implementing this until Opera is done merging/rewriting Influence Driven War... Conqueror will be getting a bonus with that once I merge it.


So essentially, Tolerant will function as it does in Pazyryk's mod, allowing you foreign cities without war. Conqueror will gain bonuses for IDW, enabling you to take more territory via war.

And the Elohim Minor leader already has Tolerant. ;)

I figured there was a good reason. Sounds fair to me. I didn't pay to much mind to the names of the promotions. On a second read through, I agree there is a bit of a funny feel IMHO.

Would you consider expanding the effects they get from visiting unique features?

By that i mean adding effects to Unique Features that currently don't do anything for the Elohim.

They could be minor, +50:science: toward current tech, or +25 :commerce:, or pop a scout or a supply wagon. Adding more traits could get over powered fast but small effects would be neat. I always get disappointed when I visit the Ice Mana feature thingie that other races get something from but I don't :(

I figured there was a good reason. Sounds fair to me. I didn't pay to much mind to the names of the promotions. On a second read through, I agree there is a bit of a funny feel IMHO.

Really, that's a minor reason. I just prefer the way FF did it, honestly. The promotions by themselves would just get renamed.

Would you consider expanding the effects they get from visiting unique features?

By that i mean adding effects to Unique Features that currently don't do anything for the Elohim.

They could be minor, +50:science: toward current tech, or +25 :commerce:, or pop a scout or a supply wagon. Adding more traits could get over powered fast but small effects would be neat. I always get disappointed when I visit the Ice Mana feature thingie that other races get something from but I don't :(

That I would consider, yes. Could even allow some (Or all, really) to be 'claimed' by the Elohim, functioning as forts. Would be very simple to do now.

Hmmm them acting as forts for the Elohim, with a defender and a small bit culture could prove interesting.

I like that idea too. I'll be honest I haven't played the Elohim since I first downloaded FfH and I have been hoping to be drawn at some point. Sounds fun.

Hmmm them acting as forts for the Elohim, with a defender and a small bit culture could prove interesting.

Since V mentioned that some of the monk promos in that Orbis modmod sounded Eastern... well, they're simple lifts of feats and other special/supernatural abilities high level monks get in D&D. D&D's fairly noncommittal about how a monk has to act, they get their powers whether you're into roleplaying some beer-brewing guy from a Belgian monastery (who mysteriously is really good fighting with his hands and falling great distances), or Kwai Chang Kane clones from the Shaolin temple. *shrugs*

Anyhow, I really do like that Pazyryk mod, but the Elohim in FF already have their own "twist"... in FF, you visit certain UFs, think of them as pilgramages, any single unit will do, and sometimes get a one-time special like a free trait. In Pazyryk's mod, the benefits are for keeping control of those UFs within your cultural borders, though I think after finding (and holding) five or six of them you end up with the Spiritual trait or something, I forget. Certain civic choices are granted such that you have a very scattered empire around these UFs with no distance penalties between them, but each of those spots better be an amazing stronghold, since there isn't any cavalry going to come and save you if someone else decides its time to capture a strategic UF.

I don't think those two systems would easily blend in any kind of balanced way, though again, there may be elements of inspiration here and there, an example might be how a Reliquary building, if near a UF, generates a special "Holy Relics" resource... hey, just like the Scions are the only ones who can see Patrian Artifacts, only the Elohim can get all excited about junk they find lying around UFs.

feedback about the XP system (since i didnt play FF/+ before its new to me):

pro:

+ passive training: absolutely love this feature - it finally makes things like recruit (great commanders) usefull as those units start with 0 xp but can at least gain some levels before send on a military campaign.

i like it alot more than in orbis for example where many buildings grant xp bonuses, so mid/late game your unit producing cities (heck i mostly only used 1 because you can settle commanders for an additional +2xp for new units) send out troops with a free drill promotion(from a common building, the citadel) AND 20ish+ XP. makes abilities like recruit completely pointless and feels just wrong having elite troops like that straight outta training.

suggestion: command posts should give passive xp up to 10 for great commanders, so those can catch up with the rest of the troops.

con:

- ranged xp. in orbis this is easily abusable (you get 1 xp for every 10% of damage you deal with ranged strikes - gets a bit hilarious when your flurries earn 10 xp from killing a lowly enemy worker or animal) and therefore too strong for my liking.
in FF(+) however its the total opposite. i had a nightwatch promoted with all kind of promotions enhacing ranged strikes and it dealt 50% damage to an enemy champion ..... and it got something like 0.18 xp :confused: in return.
there has to be some middle-ground between ranged attacks being overpowered like in orbis and completely underpowered in FF(+).....
since defending xp is already heavily gimped compared to attacking xp (btw i ll never get why - a small bonus for attacking would be okay but as it is you get twice or more the xp from it... ) there s no way to get units like archers into high levels unless you re using them just like melee units which IMHO feels just weird.

suggestion: i have no clue how the mechanics behind xp gain really work but i think that if a unit defeating another units gets for example 2.5 xp when it is attacking, it should have gotten 2.0 xp when defending. using ranged strikes in the samel example every 10% damage would translate into 10% of the attacking xp i.e. 0.25 xp for 10% damage - 1.25 xp for 50% damage - 2.5 xp for 100% damage. there s still an advanatge for attacking over defending, just not as much as before.

and ranged xp d also be fine - mind you doing 100% isnt even possible for most ranged units except for highly promoted lategame one. further mind you that unlike orbis this xp gain is already taking into account the enemies strenght, so killing a lowly worker would already only give 1.0 or less xp for the attacker and therefore 100% of that would be just 1.0 or less xp.

ricolikesrice, the point is: ranged damage xp is very abusable. With higher xp for ranged damage you can promote ten archers to tenth level by spending some time with a single elephant or any held monster :)

con:

- ranged xp. in orbis this is easily abusable (you get 1 xp for every 10% of damage you deal with ranged strikes - gets a bit hilarious when your flurries earn 10 xp from killing a lowly enemy worker or animal) and therefore too strong for my liking.
in FF(+) however its the total opposite. i had a nightwatch promoted with all kind of promotions enhacing ranged strikes and it dealt 50% damage to an enemy champion ..... and it got something like 0.18 xp :confused: in return.
there has to be some middle-ground between ranged attacks being overpowered like in orbis and completely underpowered in FF(+).

You dealt 50% damage to a champion and thought you got nothing for it?

You're not supposed to be able to sit outside a city, plinking away at the defenders gaining experience for no risk at all. That was a problem in an earlier version.

Ranged attacks are free, you shouldn't get much for them. They are only supposed to be a prelude to an actual attack. That champion should now be an easy target for your other Nightwatch or a longbowman.

----

I agree that experience for defending and attacking should be much closer. Maybe even defenders should get more than attackers, since defending is more dangerous than attacking.

since defending is more dangerous than attacking.

Why? Defender gains lot of boni (walls, territory, etc), attacker has not.

Why? Defender gains lot of boni (walls, territory, etc), attacker has not.

Short version, attacking is voluntary.

The attacker will always bring overwhelming force, spells, summons, collateral damage et cetera. If he doesn't have those things, he won't attack and thus won't be an attacker. In addition, the attacker never risks anything other than the unit attacking. The defender risks the city, any soft targets it is defending and it's own existence. And the you never chose the defender, unlike attackers.

Any bonuses the defender has are merely mitigating the massive advantage of attackers. In an equal fight, the attacker will win.

Come to think of it, barbarians are an exception to this. They will always attack, with none of the support I mentioned. They should give equal experience for defending and attacking.

New animals are very scary indeed.
Wyrms and White Dragons around my Luchuirp city in first few turns, ouch :(

Still, makes exploration entertaining :goodjob:

Short version, attacking is voluntary.

The attacker will always bring overwhelming force, spells, summons, collateral damage et cetera. If he doesn't have those things, he won't attack and thus won't be an attacker. In addition, the attacker never risks anything other than the unit attacking. The defender risks the city, any soft targets it is defending and it's own existence. And the you never chose the defender, unlike attackers.

Any bonuses the defender has are merely mitigating the massive advantage of attackers. In an equal fight, the attacker will win.

Come to think of it, barbarians are an exception to this. They will always attack, with none of the support I mentioned. They should give equal experience for defending and attacking.

I disagree. "In an equal fight, the attacker will win" statement is incorrect, because you don't determine, what do you consider equal fight. In a really equal fight (warrior vs. warrior without additional bonuses), chances for each side would be 50%.

All that stuff about "attacker will always bring overwhelming force, spells, summons, collateral damage et cetera" is correct, but not in the "always" part. Why should defender receive additional experience, if there were no overwhelming forces, spells and summons et cetera?

Basically, the philosophy is very easy: the less are chances for victory, the more experience you receive. That means, that if the defenders were punched to the state, where their chances are low, they actually _will_ receive more experience. Same with attackers. Game mechanics rewards the ones who are in a more difficult situation, that's inherent.

More experience for attackers is required to stimulate players to attack more, to give the game more dynamics.

I disagree. "In an equal fight, the attacker will win" statement is incorrect, because you don't determine, what do you consider equal fight.

I meant equal empires, I should have said. Give them each a side of a mirror continent and equal cities, tech and units. The attacker will win. Obviously any halfway intelligent defender will quickly counter attack, id est stop being the defender.

In a really equal fight (warrior vs. warrior without additional bonuses), chances for each side would be 50%.

But, and this is important, the attacker chose to attack. For him, a 50% chance to win is good enough. Nobody knows whether the defender would have chosen to defend at 50%, or if he would have preferred to wait a few turns for an archer to defend instead.

Suppose you have a fresh level 1 warrior, poised to attack a severely damaged Sphener. The combat odds read as 50% victory chance for the warrior. Do you really think it is an equal fight?

Or level 1 warrior defending against a level 1 warrior. 50% chance for victory. Only both warriors have a friendly worker on their tile as well. Is that an equal fight? Same :hammers: totals, xp totals, unit totals... And yet the defender stands to lose more than double the :hammers: of the attacker.


All that stuff about "attacker will always bring overwhelming force, spells, summons, collateral damage et cetera" is correct, but not in the "always" part. Why should defender receive additional experience, if there were no overwhelming forces, spells and summons et cetera?

I did mention an exception in barbarians. I can think of no other exceptions, the attacker will only be an attacker if he has an advantage.

There is always an advantage to the attacker, even if it looks like there isn't.


Basically, the philosophy is very easy: the less are chances for victory, the more experience you receive. That means, that if the defenders were punched to the state, where their chances are low, they actually _will_ receive more experience. Same with attackers. Game mechanics rewards the ones who are in a more difficult situation, that's inherent.

But in an equal fight (50% victory), the attacker has the advantage. He can chose not to attack. Thus, in an equal fight, the defender should get more experience.


More experience for attackers is required to stimulate players to attack more, to give the game more dynamics.

So dead enemy units, gold, cities and ultimately victory isn't enough to make players attack? You have to give them extra experience as well, otherwise they'll just sit still and let the computer win. Why not give them ice cream as well? Institute a chess rule, any unit that attacks wins automatically.

But in an equal fight (50% victory), the attacker has the advantage. He can chose not to attack. Thus, in an equal fight, the defender should get more experience.

It's correct. But it's the defender, who takes position and chooses, where the fight will be going on. Attacker if he decides to attack has to fight on the tile, chosen by defender. That's at least as big an advantage.


So dead enemy units, gold, cities and ultimately victory isn't enough to make players attack?

Not all attacks bring you gold and cities, and there're lots of ways to victory besides military. The nature of game is to reward for actions, taking decisions and taking risks, not for passive standing on one place. You're trying to fix a thing, which is not broken.

It's correct. But it's the defender, who takes position and chooses, where the fight will be going on. Attacker if he decides to attack has to fight on the tile, chosen by defender. That's at least as big an advantage.


Nope, again that is the attacker choice. If a target is too hard, move on to the next one, pillaging everything in your path. If it is the last city, siege it, outtech and outproduce the one city with no improvements with your empire.

It is impossible to defend someone to death.

All defenders lose. The difference between a good defender and a bad one is how quickly they lose.

Not all attacks bring you gold and cities, and there're lots of ways to victory besides military. The nature of game is to reward for actions, taking decisions and taking risks, not for passive standing on one place. You're trying to fix a thing, which is not broken.

Why make attacks that don't benefit you? A defender that isn't protecting something important might as well be dead, at least you save upkeep costs.

And, no there are no non-military victory conditions. All victories require a military adequate to secure your empire until you win.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that Ranged XP was too easily exploitable. Once the AI knows better than to try to heal in range of an enemy, I could see upping it a bit again... Until then, not a chance, sorry.

If you ever find a better portrait for Alcinus, give Alcinus' current portrait to Kahd. Kahd's horrifically stretched portrait bothers me. :( And Alcinus' current portrait is awesome.

Can you pleace import the description from Orbis how Minor Leader (in your chase Emergent Leader) can gain the bonus trait?
As fare I found out killing an other Empier gives Aggressive and founding a Religion gives Spirtual so both is the same as in Orbis.

Can you pleace import the description from Orbis how Minor Leader (in your chase Emergent Leader) can gain the bonus trait?
As fare I found out killing an other Empier gives Aggressive and founding a Religion gives Spirtual so both is the same as in Orbis.

All reqs are right here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8125856&postcount=4

I'll put them in a concept section soon, though. Keep forgetting to do it. :lol:

Most requirements will be the same as in Orbis, as both mods got them from the same place: Notque's Minor Leaders mod.

I have made some modifications to the Mechanos that I think make them more flavourful and fun.

I have changed the Handgunner unit from longbow UU to champion UU and changed the building requirement to factory (other than that they are unchaned ex. still archery units). I moved Feris to Blasting Powder, and gave her 2 range 7atk and 10rangedatk. I found it funny that guns required archery techs, so I changed it...

I then replaced axemen with Black Swords( swordsmen without the bounus vs melee, but gaining 20% colateral to 1 unit up to 50%).

I have made some modifications to the Mechanos that I think make them more flavourful and fun.

I have changed the Handgunner unit from longbow UU to champion UU and changed the building requirement to factory (other than that they are unchaned ex. still archery units). I moved Feris to Blasting Powder, and gave her 2 range 7atk and 10rangedatk. I found it funny that guns required archery techs, so I changed it...

I then replaced axemen with Black Swords( swordsmen without the bounus vs melee, but gaining 20% colateral to 1 unit up to 50%).

Well, the gun units technically ARE still ranged units, which is why they required Archery. ;)

That said, I can see the point that metal work should be rather more important for these particular units than bow-making, so I might do the same.

I like your Axeman UU. ;)

Just played a game with Archos. Their fort commander UU's are great, but... as of now the only promos they seem to be able to get are Drill I-IV. They should be able to learn a version of spell extension, as well as regular strength promos.

Also, is it possible to consider a spider pack type unit. Should require a lot of spiders (more than regular animals - maybe 8 to form and the then have the strength limited. I found I had to delete a tonne of spiders to keep my economy going and that just seems unfair. If there was a way to combine some of the extra, non-beast spiders it would make things better.

small idea/suggestion regading the great commander mechanics:

wouldnt it be better if great commanders worked a bit similar to adventurers ? i.e. when they spawn they are just as usual but with the option to upgrade into either the melee (warrior>axemen>champion>phalanx) or mounted line (horsemen>horsearcher>knight) at reduced upgrade costs ? of course no free xp like adventurers however. instead of having a different unit_combat which seems to create a lot of hassle with promotions, spells etc. (even though some of that was already fixed in FF patch c / FF+ 22 ) the special commander promotions would not require this special unit_combat but instead a promotion that only great commanders would have (and some heroes like donal lugh).

that would mean commanders d have access to a lot more promotions but keep in mind that then they d have to decide whether to take promotions that make THEM better at combat or to take promotions that make them better commanders. (most would go for the later anyhow since that is the point of them)

its not a big change concerning balance, i m just thinking it might things easier for you modders instead of having to deal with yet another unit combat when designing spells/effects/promotions etc.

already read people complaing that their hippus commanders still cant keep up speed with their troops etc. etc. - unless i m missing something this (hopefully) simple change could deal with all these issues in one strike, .... or couldnt it ?

Just a thought that occurred over the weekend. Would be interesting if Ancient Towers worked like forts (except they don't upgrade).

small idea/suggestion regading the great commander mechanics:

wouldnt it be better if great commanders worked a bit similar to adventurers ? i.e. when they spawn they are just as usual but with the option to upgrade into either the melee (warrior>axemen>champion>phalanx) or mounted line (horsemen>horsearcher>knight) at reduced upgrade costs ? of course no free xp like adventurers however. instead of having a different unit_combat which seems to create a lot of hassle with promotions, spells etc. (even though some of that was already fixed in FF patch c / FF+ 22 ) the special commander promotions would not require this special unit_combat but instead a promotion that only great commanders would have (and some heroes like donal lugh).

that would mean commanders d have access to a lot more promotions but keep in mind that then they d have to decide whether to take promotions that make THEM better at combat or to take promotions that make them better commanders. (most would go for the later anyhow since that is the point of them)

its not a big change concerning balance, i m just thinking it might things easier for you modders instead of having to deal with yet another unit combat when designing spells/effects/promotions etc.

already read people complaing that their hippus commanders still cant keep up speed with their troops etc. etc. - unless i m missing something this (hopefully) simple change could deal with all these issues in one strike, .... or couldnt it ?
I made a module to do almost exactly that a while ago, the only difference being I had high level units becoming commanders rather than commanders upgrading to regular units.
It was not particularly well received (only 11 downloads, one of which I think was me :)) and I don't really like commanders of any sort anyway, so I didn't revisit it. It's still there, though, if you're interested: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333147
You're also quite welcome to any of the work or ideas there if you want to try making your own version.

The new race the Frozen - Their Wintered Promotion is WAY OP and needs something done about it. (Alternatively I know I will be disabling the race in my games)

A permanent -40% :strength: is too much. (Do I understand that if any unit in the world dies that has the Wintered promotion they gain a Basic unit or a population point? is it a 100% chance?)

If Wintered were curable by a Priest/The Pool of Tears/Infirmary I would not worry about it so much, but right now every Heroic unit I have (My Race hero, religion hero, and all 3 stooges) Have Wintered and there is no cure. They will be -40% for the rest of the game.

This promo is too much to be permanent, there needs to be a way to remove it from units. If nothing else if some comes up with a modular add on that resolves this I would be REAL interested in hearing about it.

I should mention I am playing against the Frozen, not as them

The new race the Frozen - Their Wintered Promotion is WAY OP and needs something done about it. (Alternatively I know I will be disabling the race in my games)

A permenent -40% :strength:

Yeah, I'll be looking closely at them before release patch A. A few other issues already... Such as their own units generating Frozen Souls on death. :p

BAH sorry I submitted too early and spent too long editing my post.

-40% is really too much, it's like a free disease on diseased corpses which doesn't affect the carrier. Actually, it's stronger, and returns that unit back. What I think is more broken, is that they gain it too, while they should be immune to it (living in the winter and lovin' it, etc.).

Also their palace art is currently infernal. I am ok with shape (it looks like a big icicle) but not with colors.

Here is how it looks now:
http://i35.tinypic.com/s32ctd.jpg

It's totally out-of-place amongst the snow.

Here's a quick recolor:
http://i33.tinypic.com/24bozh5.jpg

Much better In My Opinion.
Textures are in attachment.

-40% is really too much, it's like a free disease on diseased corpses which doesn't affect the carrier. Actually, it's stronger, and returns that unit back. What I think is more broken, is that they gain it too, while they should be immune to it (living in the winter and lovin' it, etc.).

Also their palace art is currently infernal. I am ok with shape (it looks like a big icicle) but not with colors.

Here is how it looks now:
http://i35.tinypic.com/s32ctd.jpg

It's totally out-of-place amongst the snow.

Here's a quick recolor:
http://i33.tinypic.com/24bozh5.jpg

Much better In My Opinion.
Textures are in attachment.

I agree, -40% is too much when it's permanent. If priests can remove it, then I'll leave it as is, however... And Frozen units need to be immune to it regardless.

I love the new palace art! :goodjob: Will DEFINITELY use it.

I agree, -40% is too much when it's permanent. If priests can remove it, then I'll leave it as is, however... And Frozen units need to be immune to it regardless.
Temporary 40% (removed by priests, arthendain, aqua succelus, pool of tears, probably Pyre of Seraphic/fire spell too? :D) is OK. Also it should be Winterborn OR Wintered IMO.

The last question: what's with the "wintered"? What does it mean/correct translation? I am not a native english speaker, but I think that the verb "winter" is not used in such form (at least often).I'd like the promotion to be called "frostbitten"/"chilblain" instead.

Temporary 40% (removed by priests, arthendain, aqua succelus, pool of tears, probably Pyre of Seraphic/fire spell too? :D) is OK. Also it should be Winterborn OR Wintered IMO.

The last question: what's with the "wintered"? What does it mean/correct translation? I am not a native english speaker, but I think that the verb "winter" is not used in such form (at least often).I'd like the promotion to be called "frostbitten"/"chilblain" instead.

Honestly, I thought the same thing when I first read it... It's not used that way at all.

Chilblain sounds good... Think I'll go with that. :goodjob:

I think Wintered ussualy means that some-one/thing thing has survidied a winter, such as a baby.

Generally, it would be used as in 'We wintered in Florida'. The use given to it in the promotion, current rather than past tense, is one I've never seen, personally. Seems wrong to me.

Well, maybe it could be used in that strange way, a "wintered" man... But why not "overwintered" then? :) And just in case, they didn't survive a winter, they've got very bad bruises caused by frost, so "chilblain" seems more fitting :). Anyway, it's just a minor issue.

Design-wise, why should it lower their strength at all? I thought that fire damage could cause severe burns, chaos mana corruption, death man withering etc. in the same way, but it's designed to stay at "strength" value. And suddenly we get this "-40%" huge penalty. It's good by the fact that it allows the unit to join your faction after death, it may cause some problems to balance the fact that EVERY good creature goes to angels, but I'd like it to be something different from simple overpowered "-40% str" :).

P.S> Would it be possible to show the tile the "frostbitten" unit is on instead? Like, until it's cured, your fierce bone-biting cold demons haunt the creature.

I agree, -40% is too much when it's permanent. If priests can remove it, then I'll leave it as is, however... And Frozen units need to be immune to it regardless.

Yeah I don't mind the -40% just that the only cure is death. If it were only -10% then the duration wouldn't matter.

And I agree with Winterborn units being immune.

As for the word, meh I took it to mean you had been hit by a wintery blast or something. Frostbotten DOES sound better tho.

Chilblain sounds too much like Chillax to me :)

An reason why the Jotnar First City is now called Jotunheim? Which, by the way, means "Home(land) of the Giants'?

Just to get more of a Norse feel, I believe.

Maybe you can use the Graphics Rise of Mankind uses for Obsidian instead of the Oil graphics? At last I think this would fit bether.

Just to get more of a Norse feel, I believe.


You are correct sir.


"Homestaed" made me imagine a gigantic Laura Ingalls running around the BFC yelling "Pa! Pa!".

Maybe you can use the Graphics Rise of Mankind uses for Obsidian instead of the Oil graphics? At last I think this would fit bether.

I'm planning on it, yes. Just merged with was in RLD for now... Will grab a couple of resources from RoM.

I was just looking through the XML schemas, trying to see what I can break, and I have a question:

Bonuses can add to the <iDiscoverRand>, through the <iDiscoverRandMultiplier>, but not <iSpreadRand>, as there is no <iSpreadRandModifier>. Any chance of it appearing in future versions (so bonuses could modify spread rate instead of/as well as the discover rate)?

Or did I misunderstand, and iDiscoverRandMultiplier applies to both of them?

I was just looking through the XML schemas, trying to see what I can break, and I have a question:

Bonuses can add to the <iDiscoverRand>, through the <iDiscoverRandMultiplier>, but not <iSpreadRand>, as there is no <iSpreadRandModifier>. Any chance of it appearing in future versions (so bonuses could modify spread rate instead of/as well as the discover rate)?

Or did I misunderstand, and iDiscoverRandMultiplier applies to both of them?

You know, I'm not actually sure if it does or not? Opera needs to pop in and answer this...

If it doesn't, I'll write a iSpreadRandModifier.

I made a module to do almost exactly that a while ago, the only difference being I had high level units becoming commanders rather than commanders upgrading to regular units.
It was not particularly well received (only 11 downloads, one of which I think was me :)) and I don't really like commanders of any sort anyway, so I didn't revisit it. It's still there, though, if you're interested: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333147
You're also quite welcome to any of the work or ideas there if you want to try making your own version.

pretty awesome stuff, the only change i d suggest would be (copied from your thread, my changes in bold)



All Great Commanders start with the "Commander" Promotion .

Gives a command limit of 3 and allows access to Command Limit 1/2/3 and Command Range 1/2/3 and reduces upgrade costs for this unit by 50%.

Great Commanders can now upgrade into Warriors, Archers, Horsemen/Chariot, Scouts or Disciples of your state religion or further upgrades of those units once available by tech/building requirements/etc.

The "Commander" Promotion allows access to the following additional promotions (minion promotions not listed are unchanged):

Melee

* Siege Commander 1 (with City Raider 2)
* Siege Commander 2 (with City Raider 3 and Siege Commander 1)
* Artillery Master (with Siege Commander 2)
* Veteran 1 (with Combat 3). Grants minions Loyalty
* Veteran 2 (with Combat 5 and Veteran 1). Grants minions Valor
* Veteran 3 (with Veteran 2). Grants minions Veteran Training
* (Veteran Training = +1 strength to Adept, Disciple, Melee, Archery, Recon, Mounted)

Recon

* Trailblazer. Grants minions Trailblazed
* (Trailblazed = ignore movement costs to all but Naval)
* Wilderness Expert. (with Woodsman 1 or Guerilla 1). Grants minions Wilderness Training
* (Wilderness Training = can gain defensive bonuses for Mounted and Siege)
* Infiltrator (with Commando). Grants minions Infiltrating
* (Infiltrating = can use enemy roads for all but Naval)
* Tamer 1 (with Subdue Animals). Gives minions Tamed 1
* (Tamed 1 = +20% withdrawal and +1 Strength for Animals and Beasts)
* Tamer 2 (with Subdue Beasts and Tamer 1). Grants minions Tamed 2
* (Tamed 2 = +2 first strikes and +1 movement for Animals and Beasts)

Mounted

* Mount Convoy (with Stirrups). Grants minions Mounted Convoy
* (Mounted Convoy = +2 movement, no defensive bonus for Worker, Adept, Archer, Disciple, Melee, Recon)

Disciple

* Field Medic 1 (with Medic 1)
* Field Medic 2 (with Medic 2)
* Arcane Mentor 1. Grants Arcane Student to Disciple units as well
* Arcane Mentor 2. See above.

Archery

* Garrison Commander 1 (with City Garrison 2). Grants Defensive Station to Melee, Adept, Disciple, Animal, Beast, Mounted, and Recon now
* Garrison Commander 2 (with City Garrison 3). See above
* Archery Commander 1 (with Archery 2)
* Archery Commander 2 (with Archery 3)
* Militia Leader (With City Garrison 1) Grants minions Militia
* (Militia = +3 Strength for Workers (who can now attack))



As for Art i remember from Orbis that there was/is an adventurer promotion which changes the units art to be a single model, i.e. if a warrior got the adventurer promotion, it would from then on display as ONE instead of 3 warriors and therefore make differentiating between your commanders and real units easy enough except for commanders promoted to units that already only have single unit graphics (immortals for instance).

The later isnt a problem however since those units are usually rare national ones and most people would probably not bother upgrading their commanders to national units as those are better used spending their xp on improving their combat strenght than improving the strenght of others.

1 champion "commander" with all kind of command promotions guiding 4 phalanxes with all kind of strenght enhancing promotions > 1 phalanx with all kind of command promotions guiding 3 phalanxes with all kind of strenght promotions afterall.

EDIT: quick list of the pro´s and i think this system would have.

+no more issues with certain spells/promotions/effects not working on commanders as they wouldnt have a different unit_combat anymore (hippus commanders can finally catch up with their armies due to getting horselord, commando and being able to upgrade into mounted units just for example)
+unique commanders for many civs (vampire commanders, mimic commanders, etc. etc. etc.)
+commanders would be able to get "training" xp from buildings in cities, at least up to 10 xp.
+YOU decide whether you want "Warlords" (commanders that are powerful fighters themselves but dont buff their followers that much) or "Tacticans" (commanders that focus exlusively on buffing their followers and dont buy promotions other than for this purpose )

as for cons, i cant think of any - feel free to add them.

I was just looking through the XML schemas, trying to see what I can break, and I have a question:

Bonuses can add to the <iDiscoverRand>, through the <iDiscoverRandMultiplier>, but not <iSpreadRand>, as there is no <iSpreadRandModifier>. Any chance of it appearing in future versions (so bonuses could modify spread rate instead of/as well as the discover rate)?

Or did I misunderstand, and iDiscoverRandMultiplier applies to both of them?As of now, iDiscoverRandMultiplier applies to both of them. Splitting it in two wouldn't be hard... I wasn't sure it was needed.

Are plain XML FF Mods still direct importable into FF+?

pretty awesome stuff, the only change i d suggest would be (copied from your thread, my changes in bold)



As for Art i remember from Orbis that there was/is an adventurer promotion which changes the units art to be a single model, i.e. if a warrior got the adventurer promotion, it would from then on display as ONE instead of 3 warriors and therefore make differentiating between your commanders and real units easy enough except for commanders promoted to units that already only have single unit graphics (immortals for instance).

The later isnt a problem however since those units are usually rare national ones and most people would probably not bother upgrading their commanders to national units as those are better used spending their xp on improving their combat strenght than improving the strenght of others.

1 champion "commander" with all kind of command promotions guiding 4 phalanxes with all kind of strenght enhancing promotions > 1 phalanx with all kind of command promotions guiding 3 phalanxes with all kind of strenght promotions afterall.

EDIT: quick list of the pro´s and i think this system would have.

+no more issues with certain spells/promotions/effects not working on commanders as they wouldnt have a different unit_combat anymore (hippus commanders can finally catch up with their armies due to getting horselord, commando and being able to upgrade into mounted units just for example)
+unique commanders for many civs (vampire commanders, mimic commanders, etc. etc. etc.)
+commanders would be able to get "training" xp from buildings in cities, at least up to 10 xp.
+YOU decide whether you want "Warlords" (commanders that are powerful fighters themselves but dont buff their followers that much) or "Tacticans" (commanders that focus exlusively on buffing their followers and dont buy promotions other than for this purpose )

as for cons, i cant think of any - feel free to add them.

FF has the Adventurer promotion as well... In fact, I believe it originated there. ;)

As for the mod... Personally, I like Commanders as they are now. That said, enough people seem to disagree that it would make a good module, and would involve just XML. If you make it, or get someone to do it, I'd be more than happy to post a link in the Download thread. ;)

As of now, iDiscoverRandMultiplier applies to both of them. Splitting it in two wouldn't be hard... I wasn't sure it was needed.

So long as it does affect it, I don't think it's really needed.... Although, if it was split, you could have Earth affect discovering and (Nature, Life, Creation) affect spreading, whichever would be most lore appropriate/needs the biggest boost. I'd say Creation needs the boost, and I think Fertility is part of that sphere?

Are plain XML FF Mods still direct importable into FF+?

That depends. Generally speaking, no, not without a VERY small bit of work....

The Schema files are different now between FF and FFPlus. In order to get it to work, simply copy any schemas that are used in the module, rename them to what they are in the module, and overwrite the old version in the module. :lol:

Or let me know which module you want... If it's a quick job, I'll update it and stick it in the Download thread.

The Schema files are different now between FF and FFPlus. In order to get it to work, simply copy any schemas that are used in the module, rename them to what they are in the module, and overwrite the old version in the module. :lol:

Actually I don't think that's necessary. As long as xienwolfs recommendations on the schema files are followed.

Well, to be honest I'm only REALLY familiar with the old system.

What are Xienwolf's recommendations?

Well, to be honest I'm only REALLY familiar with the old system.

What are Xienwolf's recommendations?

Rename the schema file.

I didn't in a few modules and when the schema changed in the last patch, it broke every other xml file.

It seem like the schema is used to verify that the xml is well formed, but then a different set of restrictions is placed on the xml when it is read into the engine. So I don't know what the point of having schema files at all is.

Oh. Only reason I said to rename the file, is if it's already renamed then the modules xml points to the renamed file. Just deleting the old one without renaming the new one would cause issues in that case.

I think I failed to explain.

I made a few modules without renaming the schema file and changing the namespace of the xml. Then the patch came and the old schema from the module overwrote the new one, causing oodles of of xml errors upon loading.

If I had changed the name of the schema file and the namespace of the module xml, as xienwolf recommends, then there wouldn't have been any conflict.

Ultimately, I think that as long as the schema exists and validates the xml of the module, what the schema is doesn't matter. Maybe one could just drop the namespace completely and not have any schema at all...

Ah, so you're saying that as long as the schema files are named differently it will load?

If so, that's from the new system. I know for a fact that the old modular loading setup required you to update the schemas from patch to patch... I haven't tried to maintain a module under the new setup though.

As for dropping it, I really don't know. Would be worth a shot at the least.

Schema in a module doesn't have to match the schema in the main files, and yes, it is only used to verify the XML structure. Once you get into the DLL it doesn't care at all what is in the schema, only what is in the main xml. Schemas are required by the main xml and for the main xml (and are what make the order of the tags matter, DLL doesn't much care what order they are in.

In that case, yes, all FF modules can be loaded with FFPlus. :lol:

Depending on the module's content, of course, they may require some editing... New leaders, for example. Generally speaking though, they should work fine.

Schema in a module doesn't have to match the schema in the main files, and yes, it is only used to verify the XML structure. Once you get into the DLL it doesn't care at all what is in the schema, only what is in the main xml. Schemas are required by the main xml and for the main xml (and are what make the order of the tags matter, DLL doesn't much care what order they are in.

So, paraphrasing, replace all schemas with something that validates all xml and never care about the order of tags again.

Is there anything the schemas do that is worthwhile?

Although, if it was split, you could have Earth affect discovering and (Nature, Life, Creation) affect spreading, whichever would be most lore appropriate/needs the biggest boost. I'd say Creation needs the boost, and I think Fertility is part of that sphere?
This is pretty much the reason I asked, actually. It would make a lot more sense if it worked like that, in my opinion.

Somthing I wondering right now is there is some talking about Jontar can improve Forts to Citys or did I got there something wrong?
All I was able to see so fare is that jontar can Pay 100 Gold to upgrade a Giant Steading to a city but dont have this Spell with Forts or theyr improvments (Castle , Citadel).
(Would have posted in Bugs Thread if I was sure that its a bug and not a feature)

Somthing I wondering right now is there is some talking about Jontar can improve Forts to Citys or did I got there something wrong?
All I was able to see so fare is that jontar can Pay 100 Gold to upgrade a Giant Steading to a city but dont have this Spell with Forts or theyr improvments (Castle , Citadel).

You need Masonry, 100 gold, minimum level 7 and only the fort commander can cast it.

I can't see anything that prevents it from being cast below the minimum range at which you can found cities.

Ups level 7 for the fort commander thats something because my highest one still need 2 lvl ^^. (Already have Citadel there for around 10-15 turns)
For Giant Steading my Troll Hunter could cast the spell so I was wondering.

This is pretty much the reason I asked, actually. It would make a lot more sense if it worked like that, in my opinion.

I believe Opera is working on that, actually. :p If not, I'll do it... For the same reason. It makes more sense, and enables us to buff a weaker mana.

You need Masonry, 100 gold, minimum level 7 and only the fort commander can cast it.

I can't see anything that prevents it from being cast below the minimum range at which you can found cities.

...Should really toss a check in there for nearby cities... :lol:

...Should really toss a check in there for nearby cities... :lol:

I'm not sure it is worth it. Stacking cities on top of each other is such a TERRIBLE idea for the Jotnar I think it is self-limiting.


...unless of course the AI starts doing it.

The AI is the main thing there. ;)

i love fall further plus great job!

i just started playing with the Legion and they are really cool. i have some cosmetic suggestions, i don't know if this has been posted somewhere else i may have missed it, if so sorry!. but you should use the graphic for the Tower of eyes improvement for the capitol in the middle of the city, i think it looks really good and fits well with the Obsidian spire theme.

also the white icon for the infernal ash is probably a place holder. i hope so anyway heh. but i recommend the icon for Firestone from wow http://thottbot.com/s17951

any thoughts on a insect/biological civ. a hive mind thing. capturing slaves and using them as hosts or something like that. just a thought

Under the banner of general "IDEAS", you know how some units now start as "Blind", like Fireballs? It seems to mean they cannot fogbust?

That might be a good effect to add to "Blinding Light", possibly incapable of being resisted, unlike the freezing in place business. I sort of wonder if it'd affect the AI at all (who always seems to know where to go), but it might be something interesting (and scary) to affect a human player. That is, you have no idea if by advancing you're going to stumble into an entrenched archer on a hill who will tear you apart (unless combat odds display on mousing over a "foggy" square), but you can always take the risk if you want, maybe with a summons who is not blind, or with someone blind who you're willing to risk (high withdrawal cavalry of some sort).

FF has the Adventurer promotion as well... In fact, I believe it originated there. ;)

As for the mod... Personally, I like Commanders as they are now. That said, enough people seem to disagree that it would make a good module, and would involve just XML. If you make it, or get someone to do it, I'd be more than happy to post a link in the Download thread. ;)

The current module is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333147
Since there appears to be interest again, I'll go ahead and update it tonight.

You should make Dire Hamsters able to be captured and be added to a carnival as "Hamster Wheel"(+1:hammers:, +1:culture:).

You should make Dire Hamsters able to be captured and be added to a carnival as "Hamster Wheel"(+1:hammers:, +1:culture:).

:lol: That's awesome. I think we'll do that. :goodjob:

Blind makes any unit (even an AI one) unable to enter a tile which you cannot see, and unable to be controlled if caught in a tile which is not visible to you. So if a non-blind unit shares the tile with a blind one, no real effect. But if on their own, potentially they become completely uncontrollable until discovered or cured.

You should make Dire Hamsters able to be captured and be added to a carnival as "Hamster Wheel"(+1:hammers:, +1:culture:).

This begs the question of whether once you get say, five of these things, you can stack them together to give that city Power for the Mechanos....;)

This begs the question of whether once you get say, five of these things, you can stack them together to give that city Power for the Mechanos....;)

Somehow I don't think so... but it DOES give me an interesting idea involving a Mobile Fortress and Hamster Power. :lol:

Feed The Goblins souldent thake the EXP and Promotions from the sacreviced Unit to the new Goblin Unit. I might be no problem from the Gamemechanic or balancing point of view but how in the world did the Thrall Militea get the Promotions and Exp from just eating a Thrall?
A other solution would be Militea Training so that the Thrall also keep his Racial Promotion and the Jontar wouldend look so evil any more.

in my last game i captured a Sea Serpent. this unit can get the Guerilla and Woodsman promotion. could u add a bonus for Kelp and Kelp Forest to the woodsman promotion so it will have at least a little use for see units?

and i captured a hamster - what can i do with him? lol

also i captured an undead Elk. this unit has the Estranged promotion. I didnt found anything in the civilopedia how a unit and what units will get this promotion. can some1 help?

and the Fort Commander on the Rinwell Isle needs a water walking promotion else he will die even if you have a ship with cargo space on the plot...


edit:
ah, and the AI fort commanders dont use promotions - you see the graphic effect for free promotions on all of them but it seems they dont want them :)

Feed The Goblins souldent thake the EXP and Promotions from the sacreviced Unit to the new Goblin Unit. I might be no problem from the Gamemechanic or balancing point of view but how in the world did the Thrall Militea get the Promotions and Exp from just eating a Thrall?
A other solution would be Militea Training so that the Thrall also keep his Racial Promotion and the Jontar wouldend look so evil any more.

So you think that "Feed the Goblins" slaughters the slave and gives the local goblins some high grade beef? In return you get a new Thrall Militia. Possible.

I assumed it mean that the jotnar start feeding the slave a little better food, thereby upgrading the slave to a Thrall Militia. It's called "Feed the Goblins" because the jotnar don't really care about the different varieties of little folk.


also i captured an undead Elk. this unit has the Estranged promotion. I didnt found anything in the civilopedia how a unit and what units will get this promotion. can some1 help?


Haunted Lands. The only new thing is that some spawn at the start.

Haunted Lands. The only new thing is that some spawn at the start.

ahh, thx

and another question:

what does the part with
"2 [icon_star] in own cities throughout the map"
in the Triforce promotion mean?

thx

in my last game i captured a Sea Serpent. this unit can get the Guerilla and Woodsman promotion. could u add a bonus for Kelp and Kelp Forest to the woodsman promotion so it will have at least a little use for see units?

and i captured a hamster - what can i do with him? lol

also i captured an undead Elk. this unit has the Estranged promotion. I didnt found anything in the civilopedia how a unit and what units will get this promotion. can some1 help?

and the Fort Commander on the Rinwell Isle needs a water walking promotion else he will die even if you have a ship with cargo space on the plot...


edit:
ah, and the AI fort commanders dont use promotions - you see the graphic effect for free promotions on all of them but it seems they dont want them :)

Woops, yeah I'll add a bonus there for Kelp.

At the moment, hamsters do nothing for you if you capture them... Soon, they'll be rather more dangerous (Still just as weak, though) and will be able to construct a 'Hamster Wheel' in cities... +1:hammers: and +1:culture:

ahh, thx

and another question:

what does the part with
"2 [icon_star] in own cities throughout the map"
in the Triforce promotion mean?

thx

2 experience to new units built.

I'm rather disappointed noone's really made anything of that name... Although I guess that aspect is a bit bugged right now. :lol:

At the moment, hamsters do nothing for you if you capture them... Soon, they'll be rather more dangerous (Still just as weak, though) and will be able to construct a 'Hamster Wheel' in cities... +1:hammers: and +1:culture:

That's pretty sick :D

Have you thought about how to make tigers and gorillas more common? I'm still not seeing them in my games - I don't know exactly how the spawning mechanic works, but maybe they should be able to pop anywhere in tropical, subtropical, or temperate areas, so long as the terrain's grassland or plains? (with or without forest or jungle)

Feed The Goblins souldent thake the EXP and Promotions from the sacreviced Unit to the new Goblin Unit. I might be no problem from the Gamemechanic or balancing point of view but how in the world did the Thrall Militea get the Promotions and Exp from just eating a Thrall?
A other solution would be Militea Training so that the Thrall also keep his Racial Promotion and the Jontar wouldend look so evil any more.

An excellent point actually. My intent there was to simulate a captured elf/dwarf/whatever slave or worker being chopped up and fed to the goblins, stimulating a little population boom and producing a new thrall unit. I'll remove the promotion transfer.

2 experience to new units built.

I'm rather disappointed noone's really made anything of that name... Although I guess that aspect is a bit bugged right now. :lol:


Yeah, I worldbuildered in the promotions on a unit after discovering the Guardian and killing all the gargoyles. Wasn't able to claim the guardian, wasn't able to make the special item.

Yeah, I worldbuildered in the promotions on a unit after discovering the Guardian and killing all the gargoyles. Wasn't able to claim the guardian, wasn't able to make the special item.

I did the same thing, but I THEN removed those the and added the triforce promos (there is a duck head one too) then I was able to claim the passage as a fort.

The mechanic works just the spells to use it are missing.

I did the same thing, but I THEN removed those the and added the triforce promos (there is a duck head one too) then I was able to claim the passage as a fort.

The mechanic works just the spells to use it are missing.

Yeah, the duck-promo (Invisible, don't worry) should be gained as soon as you have all three shards and are on the Guardian. It enables the spell to gain the triforce.

You might want to put a little warning with the "Gain Triforce" spell. I used one of my well promoted units to cast the triforce spell, not realizing that unit would be permanently stuck as the super-fort commander. If I had known I would have used a more appropriate unit.

ps. I too used the WB to place the promotions on the unit which defeated the gargoyles.

That's pretty sick :D

Have you thought about how to make tigers and gorillas more common? I'm still not seeing them in my games - I don't know exactly how the spawning mechanic works, but maybe they should be able to pop anywhere in tropical, subtropical, or temperate areas, so long as the terrain's grassland or plains? (with or without forest or jungle)


They are there. They have invisible_animal now though...so you probably aren't seeing them. If you check the XML you'll see they spawn on a very wide range of terrains now. :)

Unless of course something else is broken on the map you are using...I can verify they spawn on Erebus and Tectonics.

You might want to put a little warning with the "Gain Triforce" spell. I used one of my well promoted units to cast the triforce spell, not realizing that unit would be permanently stuck as the super-fort commander. If I had known I would have used a more appropriate unit.

ps. I too used the WB to place the promotions on the unit which defeated the gargoyles.

Yeah, I'll add a warning. :lol: I will say though, that it's probably a good idea to use a strong unit there. The Guardian is generally in a useful pass, and you want to protect that item... It's granted to whoever defeats your unit in combat. Only method of passing it on.

from emergent and minor to major leader trait mechanics needs explanation in Civpedia, I guess.

E.g. I remember vaguely that somehow was it in original "minor leaders mod" possible to acquire two traits instead of one but I have no idea is it possible in FF+, etc.

from emergent and minor to major leader trait mechanics needs explanation in Civpedia, I guess.

E.g. I remember vaguely that somehow was it in original "minor leaders mod" possible to acquire two traits instead of one but I have no idea is it possible in FF+, etc.

It still is, with a few traits... I'll put something in describing it.

This might not even be possible, but just something that might be nice for scenarios and pre-made maps; is is possible to make the starting locations of the Infernals and Frozen non-random. In otherwords, if there can be a unique (possible invisible) feature that they start at if it is present in the game. For some pre-made maps this could prevent them from showing up somwhere totally surrounded.

Since you are adding the Hand Religion, care to bring back Cult of the Dragons (Kuriotate & Sheaim) as cult ala Emperor's Cult religions? I never did understood why it was removed...

Just a little boost to very late game Heroes. :)

This game need some better stability and less lag, i was playing this mod on a top-of-the-line computer, and it crashed on me after half-way of the game, alt-tabbing refresh don't work ( and it is the first time it didn't work). Now it crashed to desktop on me, and that's not pretty good... you need to increase performance on this game, both stability and less lag. Did you intregrate your mod with CAR?

This game need some better stability and less lag, i was playing this mod on a top-of-the-line computer, and it crashed on me after half-way of the game, alt-tabbing refresh don't work ( and it is the first time it didn't work). Now it crashed to desktop on me, and that's not pretty good... you need to increase performance on this game, both stability and less lag. Did you intregrate your mod with CAR?

That's something we are working on atm. It's very hard to diagnose the issue if you do not experience the problem.

Bacause your Mod dont have the 1 Radius Jontar Citys can you set the minimum distance betwean Citys to 3 or even 4 as base?
In my Game the NPCs haved a loot of City with just 2 space distance and I think because of this the NPCs have much problems later.

Bacause your Mod dont have the 1 Radius Jontar Citys can you set the minimum distance betwean Citys to 3 or even 4 as base?
In my Game the NPCs haved a loot of City with just 2 space distance and I think because of this the NPCs have much problems later.

I'd rather teach the AI to settle properly than limit everyone... Besides, there will be two aquatic civs eventually. Second will be limited to coastal areas, but will have one-tier cities. :p

This game need some better stability and less lag, i was playing this mod on a top-of-the-line computer, and it crashed on me after half-way of the game, alt-tabbing refresh don't work ( and it is the first time it didn't work). Now it crashed to desktop on me, and that's not pretty good... you need to increase performance on this game, both stability and less lag. Did you intregrate your mod with CAR?
I'm also experiencing poor performance; whenever I select or move a unit (manually; multi-turn routes and automated workers don't cause problems beyond the first turn) the game chokes.

besides, there will be two aquatic civs eventually. Second will be limited to coastal areas, but will have one-tier cities. :p

two????

Bezeri, and their foil. Can't have just one aquatic civ, they'd be competing against noone.

I AM doing them one at a time though, so I can focus on each one.

I'd rather teach the AI to settle properly than limit everyone... Besides, there will be two aquatic civs eventually. Second will be limited to coastal areas, but will have one-tier cities. :p

:woohoo:

How about changing the Pact of the Nilhorn from a World Wonder to a Ritual/Project like it is now in FFH2 (it was changed in one of the last patches in FFH2)?
I think a Ritual would suits more and Industrious leaders don't get the insane bonus for this early "wonder".

Probably a good idea... Will think about it. ;)

I don't really understand the change to give towns 2 production and lumber mills crazy bonuses. Right now there is no reason to build mines.

Also one thing that has always bothered me is that you can spam arquebus and only build 4 crossbowmen. Fluffwise this seems like the reverse it should be. Blasting power tech already gives enough while machinery rarely come in use. I would just switch their stats and national unit status.

I don't really understand the change to give towns 2 production and lumber mills crazy bonuses. Right now there is no reason to build mines.


Well, lumbermills DO require a more advanced tech, get the total bonus with another tech, and have no chance of discovering precious thing.

No improvement truly REQUIRES a tech, they can be built slowly without them.

That said, Mines and Quarries are the only improvements that can discover a resource without requiring you to first have a sample of that resource. Seeing as quarries only get 3 resources (4 if you're Scions), Mines are quite strong.

Towns got production and lost commerce so that Plantations could be pure Commerce improvements.

Basically, Mine = Production, Plantation = Commerce, Town = Fusion.

Also one thing that has always bothered me is that you can spam arquebus and only build 4 crossbowmen. Fluffwise this seems like the reverse it should be. Blasting power tech already gives enough while machinery rarely come in use. I would just switch their stats and national unit status.

That's also my opinion. This was an issue in an ffh2 thread. I don't like the arquebus unit because they "destroy" my fluffy fantasy feeling when playing ffh. The same goes for canons. This is the reason why I change them to national units (max=8). But maybe I should reduce them to max=4 like u said and change crossbowmen to be a normal unit (with changed stats). That's a good idea, thx.

It's not a bad idea, really. There are only two civs that I'd make exempt (different UnitClass): Malakim, and Mechanos. Mechanos for obvious reasons, Malakim because they have a flavor for it.

As for Crossbowmen, I think that makes sense too... I'll think about it. ;)

I think that crossbows should acually be better than arqubuses, but arqubuses should be alot cheaper, (thus built on mass). Arqubuses should not be super powerfull. Crossbows were superior to early guns (the arqubuse) and had much better acurrecy, but you need training to aim and shoot a crossbow (and even more so for a longbow), whereas you can give an arqubuse to any civilian, tell them how to load, point and shoot, and you have a cheap, effective army.

I'd personally just like to see Gunpowder cut as a resource and Arquebuses become a Crossbowman UU. If only the Khazad, Mechanos, and Malakim (and Luchuirp?) had them, they could actually represent good guns, and we could dispense with historical-accuracy-in-a-fantasy-setting arguments.

Hello Everyone!

This is my first posting here and I'm not quite sure if it's not intended but when I played Amurites, I thought it was strange that their hero Govannon doesn't get the legacy of Kylorin promotion. In fact he was much weaker than the Battlemages(Archmages). I know, he can teach all my units tier 1 magic, but all the closecombat units trained of Spellswords are even capable of tier 2 magic of their own. I think he should at least have the basic stats of a battlemage.

But besides that I'm realy happy...no CTDs, no bugs encountered up to now.

Oh and english is not my native tongue so if I made any grammatical or spelling mistakes just tell me, I'm always glad to learn something.:D

Isnt Blacksmith a more natural Racial Trait for Khazad the Ingenity?

Isnt Blacksmith a more natural Racial Trait for Khazad the Ingenity?

Hmm... I don't think so. Ingenuity is more about invention, which I think fits them. Blacksmith is just creating armor... That fits too, but not as well IMO.

To boost the Strategist trait, making Tactics I a prereqOR for some of the other promotions that are normally reliant on Combat I, such as Shock, Medic, Cover, ect. would help make that promotion line a better choice for doing hit and run / defensive work, especially once you are able to strategize your troops to target specific units. Perhaps also adding in a -10% EXP to Level, Similar to Corane's trait, might also help balance it out against the sheer power of other Auto-Acquired promotions like Aggresive/Combat I or Swashbuckling / Drill 1 + Amphibious.

Along with the Triforce promotion, you could create a "Master Sword" which grants a small strength boost, but also has an AutoAcquired EffectPromotion which is removed at full health.

The effect Promotion blocks (and overwrites) another AutoAcquired promotion which grants the unit with the Master Sword a ranged attack ability :)

A small note about the Rinwell Isle World Improvement:
What's the lore behind that thing? Why does it spawn a Stygian Guard, and most importantly why in blue blazes does it have such a giant culture control radius (7 Plots IIRC?)? I ended up finding this giant spot of Demonic Culture Control and found the isle, and was utterly confused by it.

Along with the Triforce promotion, you could create a "Master Sword" which grants a small strength boost, but also has an AutoAcquired EffectPromotion which is removed at full health.

The effect Promotion blocks (and overwrites) another AutoAcquired promotion which grants the unit with the Master Sword a ranged attack ability :)

:eek::eek::eek:

Dear god... How did I not think of that?

A small note about the Rinwell Isle World Improvement:
What's the lore behind that thing? Why does it spawn a Stygian Guard, and most importantly why in blue blazes does it have such a giant culture control radius (7 Plots IIRC?)? I ended up finding this giant spot of Demonic Culture Control and found the isle, and was utterly confused by it.

It's been in every FfH NES. It's lore has altered in most of them, but it's been in all of them. ;)

As for the Stygs... That's just what spawned in Mazera, which is (IIRC) the most recent place to have it.

The culture will be toned down... Vastly underestimated how much of the ocean it would encompass. :lol:

:eek::eek::eek:

Dear god... How did I not think of that?



If so, is it possible to have the promotion for the Master Sword rename the unit something, eiter through the promotion triggering an event that does something similar to the Heroes of the Sword event?


It's been in every FfH NES. It's lore has altered in most of them, but it's been in all of them. ;)

As for the Stygs... That's just what spawned in Mazera, which is (IIRC) the most recent place to have it.

The culture will be toned down... Vastly underestimated how much of the ocean it would encompass. :lol:
Ahhhh. That makes sense. It might need to stay as is once the Bezeri and their antithesis come into play but for now it might need to be toned down as it serves relatively no purpose that I can find beyond being a naval fortress.

If so, is it possible to have the promotion for the Master Sword rename the unit something, eiter through the promotion triggering an event that does something similar to the Heroes of the Sword event?

Ahhhh. That makes sense. It might need to stay as is once the Bezeri and their antithesis come into play but for now it might need to be toned down as it serves relatively no purpose that I can find beyond being a naval fortress.

Very easily. There's an xml tag that allows promotions to rename a unit. ;)

Well, cultural control DOES prevent barbs from spawning... So no animals/naval vessels will pop up in that ocean. ;)

I hate to ask, but what exactly are the gorillas using for their "ranged attack"?:eek:

I'll leave that to your imagination. :goodjob:

If so, is it possible to have the promotion for the Master Sword rename the unit something, eiter through the promotion triggering an event that does something similar to the Heroes of the Sword event?


I suggest that it forces a quest for the unit to become reincarnated repeatedly while each time fighting the same enemy with a different form and lore. Saving a princess is mandatory, I believe that Keelyn will do good.

I hate to ask, but what exactly are the gorillas using for their "ranged attack"?:eek:

heads of your scouts :groucho:

I suggest that it forces a quest for the unit to become reincarnated repeatedly while each time fighting the same enemy with a different form and lore. Saving a princess is mandatory, I believe that Keelyn will do good.

:lol:

heads of your scouts :groucho:

Somehow I don't think that's it.... :mischief:

Only if their carnivorous gorilla...

City of a Thousand Gardens also for Jotnar? I ask because Jotnar have also 3 City Radius base and so City of a Thousand Slums also dont have a effect for them.

They should probably get it... Not sure how it fits them or not. I'll leave that up to Vermicious.

City of a 1000 Gardens would work for Jots. Although it might be more accurately called the City of 1,000,000 Goblin Gardeners.

NVM. my suggestion was already in :) Sorry!

I hate to ask, but what exactly are the gorillas using for their "ranged attack"?:eek:

I read this and instantly "barrels" popped into my head. Hehe.

-Moosh

......Dear god. How could I have forgotten about Donkey? :lol:

Would it be possible to remove the need to be administrator from the installer? I do not see the use of it, only the limitation :)

Not sure what you mean there. Fairly sure that all exe's carry that need... And AFAIK, there's no way to remove that using Inno, which is the program I use to generate it.

The need to be administrator is a windows thing, not an installer thing. This is part of the "security" of windows - if anything installs, it has to be done either as administrator, or from a user with administrator privileges.

-Colin

Not sure what you mean there. Fairly sure that all exe's carry that need... And AFAIK, there's no way to remove that using Inno, which is the program I use to generate it.

The need to be administrator is a windows thing, not an installer thing. This is part of the "security" of windows - if anything installs, it has to be done either as administrator, or from a user with administrator privileges.

-Colin

Here how I did it with Inno:


[Setup]
AppId={{C7D8C738-A91A-4466-8D98-1CA9E286F48E}
AppName=Tears FF 051c
AppVerName=Tears FF 051c
DefaultDirName={reg:HKLM\SOFTWARE\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4 - Beyond the Sword,INSTALLDIR}\Mods\Tears FF 051c\
OutputBaseFilename=FF051c_Tears.0.2.6
Compression=lzma
SolidCompression=true
DisableProgramGroupPage=true
PrivilegesRequired=none
UsePreviousAppDir=false
AppSupportURL=http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331024
AppUpdatesURL=http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331024

Huh... Didn't know that tag existed. :lol:

Mind posting your whole installer? You might have some other toys worth stealing. ;)

whats with the whole spy stuff that was introduced in BTS - is there a chance we will see this (or a changed and more fitting system) in ff+ / RifE anytime in the future?

I'm not sure. I really didn't care for the system in BtS... So if we reintroduced it it would likely take quite a bit of work for me to be satisfied with it. :lol:

One of the tags I added to our Inno for patch C when I packed it up was:

SetupIconFile=Fallen.ico

Which lets you set the icon for the installer exe :) I am tempted to go and grab some nice font files and whip up some ICOs which state the version/patch right on them :)

The icon file tag I know of... The RifE installer should show you a hamster. :lol: