View Full Version : RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback


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TC01
Jan 14, 2010, 01:56 PM
Also, I'd like to see who you all think will be getting this tag. We have pretty firm plans already (and those of you who know, not a word! :lol:), but sometimes we get good ideas from all of you so I want to see what you come up with. ;)

I guess it's always possible that the Industrious trait will be given this ability and all leaders with it will be able to do this.

If this will be a new trait (or added to the civ traits of some civs), then one civ that definitely won't get it is the Kahdi, since I remember you said you were going to get rid of them. (At least, I think that's what you said). Probably not the Frozen, Infernals, or Mercurians either. I doubt it was the Clan of Embers, since you said you picked the civ pretty much at random and you probably wouldn't pick a civ that would really be getting this mechanic. I know there was an overhaul of the D'Teshi recently, so I'm guessing it's not them.

I tend to doubt that any of the barbarian civs or arcane civs or civs like the Dural (culture-focused civs) would get it. That would seem to rule out the Archos, Chislev, Amurites, Sheaim, Sidar, Dural, and Doviello, and maybe others.

The idea behind it seems to be mass production, or at least heavily-Industrious. So the two civs that come to mind are the Khazad and the Mechanos. Maybe the Luchuirp as well, if it's the golems doing the production.

So those are my three potential guesses: Khazad, Mechanos, Luchuirp. Of course, those are lore-focused guesses. Should I be guessing based on which civs don't have any special mechanics instead?

Sephi
Jan 14, 2010, 02:16 PM
One more request: in some mod for vanilla, I've seen specialist pitures stacking (5 priests were replaced by a pic of priest with a tick, 10 priests - by a pic of priest with two ticks, etc), which made city interface much neater (when I went for Luonnotar Victory, I had about 15 priests in single city). Is it possible to implement this feature?

That's part of the BUG mod (or any mod that includes it)

blade117
Jan 14, 2010, 02:19 PM
Well, the trait info says somethin about +3 max cities, and only one civ has city limits (I think) but lore-wise, it makes no sense for them to have the multiproduction, so yeah....

TC01
Jan 14, 2010, 02:26 PM
Well, the trait info says somethin about +3 max cities, and only one civ has city limits (I think) but lore-wise, it makes no sense for them to have the multiproduction, so yeah....

He said he randomly selected the trait and civ- so Sprawling was copied because it was a convenient trait, not because it would be the Kuriotates.

Actually, that might be a reason for it to not be the Kuriotates, for the same reason I doubt it's the Clan of Embers.

Viatos
Jan 14, 2010, 04:31 PM
Kuriotates, Bezeri, Clan of Embers, and Jotnar would be my guesses. The name makes it hard because if the trait name is something like Slaver or Egalitarian you can instantly narrow down who's likely to get it by matching the adjective/noun against the lore. The +:) is a little helpful, which I am using to rule out Legion of D'tesh (anyone evil, for that matter, but D'tesh sprang to mind right away).

Swinkscalibur
Jan 14, 2010, 04:35 PM
What about that long intended Mechanos leader? He was supposed to gain fallow at some point, the production fits the Mechanos, he was going to have some other mechanic though, so maybe not him.

Valkrionn
Jan 14, 2010, 05:18 PM
As I said in the first post, the +Happiness and City Limit tags in the trait are artifacts. Didn't remove them when I cloned the trait from Sprawling, which I used because the tag itself (just the trait work, the rest was a mod by Denev) was cloned from Sprawling. :lol:

I will say this: Of the guesses, two are partially correct. Which posts, or which parts of the posts, I won't specify. :mischief:

Edit: And yes, Kahdi will be 'gone' as soon as Grey Fox is done with Field Marshals. Kahd himself will remain as an Amurite-specific event, one option of which makes him a Field Marshal for your civ. This is the only option in which he will be able to have something like the 'redemption' spells.

TC01
Jan 14, 2010, 05:46 PM
So out of the list below, two items are partially correct? Or are you counting all of my guesses as to who won't get the trait as well?


Industrious Trait
Khazad
Mechanos (one of their leaders, evidently)
Luchuirp
Kuriotates
Bezeri
Clan of Embers
Jotnar


I think the Mechanos are probably one, specifically the leader Swinkscalibur talked about.

Valkrionn
Jan 14, 2010, 05:59 PM
I'm counting every one of the guesses. ;)

sylvain5477
Jan 15, 2010, 11:31 AM
I think Valkrionn is very clever :)

Valkrionn
Jan 15, 2010, 11:37 AM
I think Valkrionn is very clever :)


Flattery will get you no where. :lol:

Actually, question for you: You wanted the 'Monstrous' tag moved to traits, not civ, correct? Can do that easily if you'd still prefer that. ;)

Gladi
Jan 16, 2010, 01:22 PM
Bright day
I just finished a MP RifE game as Malakim. I lost rather badly to my brother's Jotuns as there were peaks near most of my cities and he parked his invading armies on top of them spamming me with fireballs and then wooping down for the kill with his 20+ strength giants.

And I have no idea what I could have done differently. I could have forced him to battle by marching against his cities, but I was bleeding units right and left, so I have come off from the game that allowing movement on peaks for Giants is rather... strong.

Valkrionn
Jan 16, 2010, 01:25 PM
Actually, YOU could have been walking on peaks as well. Check out the 'Mountaineer' promotion. ;)

Khazad/Jotnar start with that ability, but everyone is able to get it. Promotion requires either: Guerrilla 2 (RoK) or Guerrilla 1 and another promo... Not sure which off the top of my head.

Gladi
Jan 16, 2010, 01:40 PM
Actually, YOU could have been walking on peaks as well. Check out the 'Mountaineer' promotion. ;)

Khazad/Jotnar start with that ability, but everyone is able to get it. Promotion requires either: Guerrilla 2 (RoK) or Guerrilla 1 and another promo... Not sure which off the top of my head.

Guerilla 1 and Drill 3. So unless I am RoK it is level 6 at the earliest, which may be problem to obtain in large quantities. With RoK it is level 4 unit, which can be massproduced given a large amount of time. Seeing as the late Jotun unitx can have up to 30 points of defense you need both a mass of artillery- to bring the giants to the point where you have a chance- and mass of mountaineers as odds will still favour the giants.

Valkrionn
Jan 16, 2010, 01:46 PM
Yes, it's difficult, but it IS there. Just a single version ago it wouldn't have been possible. ;)

Cyrusfan
Jan 16, 2010, 02:03 PM
If we're only talking about the multiple production mod (which I found was a blast in RoM/AND), the question is who gets a ridiculous amount of production in their cities (either Elves with FoL, Khazad, Kuriotates, any fallow) and who benefits from mass producing cheap units (D'Tesh no xp Death affinity warriors seem to stand out, though there could be others)?

Valkrionn
Jan 16, 2010, 02:06 PM
You neglect the fact that any civ using it could easily be tweaked around it; Cheaper UU's, units that don't Obsolete, and so on.

To be clear... The D'tesh will NEVER get the ability, nor will the Frozen or Infernals. The Elves won't either, as it doesn't fit their flavor. Won't say one way or the other for any other civ, as there could be future leaders with it. ;)

Cyrusfan
Jan 16, 2010, 02:56 PM
Not D'Tesh, Frozen, or Infernals or Elves. That's something to go on. But if you're leaving the door open to completely changing how a civ plays as part of adding this trait, we don't really have a fair chance of guessing, right?

ExMachina
Jan 16, 2010, 07:22 PM
Can we get a game option to disable the White Hand religion (like the other disable religion options)? That would be hot.

Not that I have anything against the White Hand, I just don't necessarily want it in ALL my games.

Valkrionn
Jan 16, 2010, 07:25 PM
If I get around to it sure. I just personally don't use those options, main reason I hid all of them. ;)

Pakhawaj
Jan 17, 2010, 02:52 AM
Is there a reason that the Dural have no specific buildings or units to accommodate the new White Hand religion? They also have no buildings or units for the other new religion (if it is adoptable, I don't switch the Mechanos "on").
Are there any plans to expand on the "Fall From Heaven - Concepts" page? This mod has added many new concepts and sometimes it can be tiresome switching out of the game to search these forums for explanations.
Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather not make a new one for such a minor problem- how does one rid of the "unready" promotion? The civilopedia entry states that it will wear off under certain conditions, but it does not mention what these are.

Sarisin
Jan 17, 2010, 08:42 AM
Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather not make a new one for such a minor problem- how does one rid of the "unready" promotion? The civilopedia entry states that it will wear off under certain conditions, but it does not mention what these are.

I think there are a number of 'promotions' tied to wearing off after a random number of turns that are broken in RiFE - maybe it is a FFH thing though.

For example, I've noted units that get the Terrified promotion and it sticks with them the whole game. Estranged is another one that doesn't seem to work. I find even though the chances are in favor of it wearing off, it seems to be reversed during gameplay. My Estranged unit always seems to go barb before it wears off.

I'm still not sure how you get these promotions and there is no documentation explaining them. I think Estranged comes randomly from Haunted Lands (they take their toll too often IMO) and Terrified from nasty beasts like Thunder Lizards ?

Valkrionn
Jan 17, 2010, 10:07 AM
Is there a reason that the Dural have no specific buildings or units to accommodate the new White Hand religion? They also have no buildings or units for the other new religion (if it is adoptable, I don't switch the Mechanos "on").
Are there any plans to expand on the "Fall From Heaven - Concepts" page? This mod has added many new concepts and sometimes it can be tiresome switching out of the game to search these forums for explanations.
Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather not make a new one for such a minor problem- how does one rid of the "unready" promotion? The civilopedia entry states that it will wear off under certain conditions, but it does not mention what these are.

The Dural not having UU/UBs for the new religions is an oversight that is planned to be fixed. Same thing with the Jotnar being unable to spread them.

There ARE plans to expand it. Eventually I'd like something like the Malakim+ or Doviello+ concept sections for every new civ, it just takes a long time to write them out like that.

Unready (assuming I remember correctly; You're playing as Tya of the Amurites, correct?) is lost immediately upon upgrading to a Mage. It's replaced by a hidden promotion; You also gain twincast from it. So if you can hold on to the adepts long enough, you'll get a very strong Mage. ;)

Schwarzbart
Jan 17, 2010, 11:53 PM
Verminicous have you found a way to prefent Wild Troll (scout Replacement of the Jotnar) to be able to upgrade to a other Hunter Typ or is this some strange bug I encounter because of the Modules I use?
If this prefenetion is from you then finaly Archmage and other limited units can prefented from having full Jotnar + full normal Unit limit.

Sadly it looks like it some kind of strange Bug because I could Upgrade my Troll Goblincatcher to a Ranger.

Idea: How about giving Master Buildings a addetional Equipment Option if there is a Spider Pen in the City. I allways find the Spider Pen a bit lacking compared to other Animal Buildings.

odalrick
Jan 18, 2010, 02:32 AM
I allways find the Spider Pen a bit lacking compared to other Animal Buildings.

Really? I find it the best animal building in the game.

Pakhawaj
Jan 18, 2010, 09:57 AM
-
Thank you for replying. It's good to know that there are plans for an expanded concept page! This sort of thing is usually disregarded I find. :)
I am playing Tya as the Amurites, I'm glad some good will come of battling this 8% to barbarian promotion!
I'm currently in a hotseat game, will my friend have any problems adopting the White Hand as the Dural or will it be as if she were playing any other civilisation?

Valkrionn
Jan 18, 2010, 11:14 AM
Will act as with all other civs, they aren't blocked from the White Hand religious units.

War Chicken
Jan 19, 2010, 05:58 AM
Since this is a feedback thread as well, I'll put my feedback here.

I like the lot of diversity you bring into the wilderness with this ModMod.
But: This Diversity needs to be seriously balanced.
An Ice Scorpion having Strength 4+4(Ice)+4(poison)=12 and movement 2 is something really really nasty that will be beatable during endgame only. I'm glad that beast can not enter my borders.

But the wild boar can, which is strange, 'cos all other animals can't. Also it can (and does) attack my cities. Strangely if I subdue one with a ranger, I can't attack with it anymore - just like an Elephant can't attack. This seems to be buggy.

Speaking of elephants - I like the idea that elephants are able to work. But instead of using War Elephants as workers I'd consider an alternative upgrade from the Elephant. So you can choose between getting a quite strong fighting unit (The War Elefant like in FF), or a gaining a very powerful worker unit (I'd suggest 200 or more work rate) that is capable of defending itself (but no attack ability) - Labour Elephant or something like that.

Another problem are the Barbarian spawns. Stacks of Minotaurs (6/4-2) and Cyclopses (5-2) of 3 to 5 Monsters per stack are a lot of bad luck that happens quite often in very early stages of the game where the player hasn't even archers.
I started a game yesterday with 8 AI-Opponents. Within 50 turns only 3 were left, after another 50 turns I had only 2 opponents left. Being able to explore the map later on I looked on my remaining opponents. They had a maximum of 3 citys struggeling for survival against the wildlands. The AI can not coup with that many and that strong barbarians AND strong animals.
Since you made thge barbarians more of a threat by increasing their unit strength, I'd suggest to reduce spawning stacks back to one or rarely 2 Units to help this.

Again an Animal thing. Spiders, Scorpions and Raptors reproduce sometimes when defeating an enemy. While Spiders spawn Baby-Spiders that are very weak, Raptors and Scorpions spawn fully grown counterparts. You can easily build a formidable Raptor/Scorpion-Army as soon as you get one of them to a good promotion level. Please consider to either lower the spawnrate of raptors and scorpions after successful combat a lot or Insert a Baby-phase for them as well.

The new colored Spiders look great. But if a spider develops into a spider swarm after having gained a special spider rank that colors them, the spider swarm is plain black again. I know this is a minor thing, but it would be nice to make them keep their "color code".

I have another Problem with the Jontar. In the description it says they only use one plotring (like in FF) but strangely in my games they don't use one not two but three plotrings, like the Kuriotates do - and my cities grow till I can't feed 'em anymore - No limitation. Ok, bigger people might work a bigger area, but I actually liked the "Small but More" Idea of their cities.
As I read here this might be a problem with my install - if so, what do I need to change to get it to work the way it should?

One more thing: Even I've downloaded the Mod from the Link to 1.20 at ModDB the game states it's 1.10 in the Info when I mouseover my Flag. Have you forgotten to update this or is the link pointing to the wrong file?

I hope I could help you guys a little with my descriptions and opinions.

Valkrionn
Jan 19, 2010, 06:44 AM
Since this is a feedback thread as well, I'll put my feedback here.

I like the lot of diversity you bring into the wilderness with this ModMod.
But: This Diversity needs to be seriously balanced.
An Ice Scorpion having Strength 4+4(Ice)+4(poison)=12 and movement 2 is something really really nasty that will be beatable during endgame only. I'm glad that beast can not enter my borders.

But the wild boar can, which is strange, 'cos all other animals can't. Also it can (and does) attack my cities. Strangely if I subdue one with a ranger, I can't attack with it anymore - just like an Elephant can't attack. This seems to be buggy.

Speaking of elephants - I like the idea that elephants are able to work. But instead of using War Elephants as workers I'd consider an alternative upgrade from the Elephant. So you can choose between getting a quite strong fighting unit (The War Elefant like in FF), or a gaining a very powerful worker unit (I'd suggest 200 or more work rate) that is capable of defending itself (but no attack ability) - Labour Elephant or something like that.

Another problem are the Barbarian spawns. Stacks of Minotaurs (6/4-2) and Cyclopses (5-2) of 3 to 5 Monsters per stack are a lot of bad luck that happens quite often in very early stages of the game where the player hasn't even archers.
I started a game yesterday with 8 AI-Opponents. Within 50 turns only 3 were left, after another 50 turns I had only 2 opponents left. Being able to explore the map later on I looked on my remaining opponents. They had a maximum of 3 citys struggeling for survival against the wildlands. The AI can not coup with that many and that strong barbarians AND strong animals.
Since you made thge barbarians more of a threat by increasing their unit strength, I'd suggest to reduce spawning stacks back to one or rarely 2 Units to help this.

Again an Animal thing. Spiders, Scorpions and Raptors reproduce sometimes when defeating an enemy. While Spiders spawn Baby-Spiders that are very weak, Raptors and Scorpions spawn fully grown counterparts. You can easily build a formidable Raptor/Scorpion-Army as soon as you get one of them to a good promotion level. Please consider to either lower the spawnrate of raptors and scorpions after successful combat a lot or Insert a Baby-phase for them as well.

The new colored Spiders look great. But if a spider develops into a spider swarm after having gained a special spider rank that colors them, the spider swarm is plain black again. I know this is a minor thing, but it would be nice to make them keep their "color code".

I have another Problem with the Jontar. In the description it says they only use one plotring (like in FF) but strangely in my games they don't use one not two but three plotrings, like the Kuriotates do - and my cities grow till I can't feed 'em anymore - No limitation. Ok, bigger people might work a bigger area, but I actually liked the "Small but More" Idea of their cities.
As I read here this might be a problem with my install - if so, what do I need to change to get it to work the way it should?

One more thing: Even I've downloaded the Mod from the Link to 1.20 at ModDB the game states it's 1.10 in the Info when I mouseover my Flag. Have you forgotten to update this or is the link pointing to the wrong file?

I hope I could help you guys a little with my descriptions and opinions.

Glad to get some feedback, I'll try to answer each point. ;)


Animals are being nerfed a bit. ;)
All animals can enter your borders eventually (Unless you turn off Animal Invastion, or next version turn on Timid Animals), they just need the 'ExploreRivalTerritory' tag. Which they gain after they've been alive for a while, as well as becoming a beast.
That may be a better way to do it. Call it a 'Mahout' if we can't think of anything else. ;)
Minotaurs and Cyclopses are being nerfed hard already. ;)
I believe that's a bug, don't think anyone but spiders are meant to reproduce at this point.
Bug, I need to add artstyles for the new spider levels (As well as allow them to take the promotions)
That's working as (re)designed, the help text just hasn't been updated. They require more food to grow, but don't have a size limit. The small city concept doesn't fit Giants well in our opinions, but it IS being used elsewhere.
Neglected to update all the version textkeys. I tend to do that.... :lol:

War Chicken
Jan 19, 2010, 07:40 AM
Glad to get some feedback, I'll try to answer each point. ;)


Animals are being nerfed a bit. ;)
All animals can enter your borders eventually (Unless you turn off Animal Invastion, or next version turn on Timid Animals), they just need the 'ExploreRivalTerritory' tag. Which they gain after they've been alive for a while, as well as becoming a beast.
That may be a better way to do it. Call it a 'Mahout' if we can't think of anything else. ;)
Minotaurs and Cyclopses are being nerfed hard already. ;)
I believe that's a bug, don't think anyone but spiders are meant to reproduce at this point.
Bug, I need to add artstyles for the new spider levels (As well as allow them to take the promotions)
That's working as (re)designed, the help text just hasn't been updated. They require more food to grow, but don't have a size limit. The small city concept doesn't fit Giants well in our opinions, but it IS being used elsewhere.
Neglected to update all the version textkeys. I tend to do that.... :lol:


Good to read, that the wildlands are going to calm down somewhat in the next version.

Mahout is a way better name. I'm looking forward to that change :)

Yeah, I see what you mean about the Giants - Huge people tiny Cities is a strange mix.
I'll be on the lookout in which civilization I can find the small City mechanic then.

Good to know, that my Version is up to date then. I'll get some more Impressions tonight when I get home from Work.

darkedone02
Jan 19, 2010, 09:26 PM
It will be nice if there was more of that terrain climate changing that you added for Illians, d'tesh, Malakim, and the other races. I also wish you can add it to both the Hyborim and the Mecarians (sp?). What I want to experiance when I play as the Hyborim, I want to see the land slowly corrupting into the evil-ish lands, deserts becomes burning sands, grasslands becomes broken lands, and whatnot. I wish there was some more terrains where each turn, you see a change, but that might cost some performance and alot of modelling to create something of a realistic climate change as well.

Not only that, I also wish there was some more terrain to see. as Hyborim, when the terrains become corrupted around a river, the river becomes magma rivers, Mountains become volcanoes, and lakes nearby transform into magma lakes.

Now besides the graphic looks of hell that we mostly look at, I wish there was a beautification for the good side, Grasslands become holy fields covered with special flowers that could weaken demonic powers, and not only that give out a nice commerce bonus and +1 on health and happiness due to the herbs that grow there and the beautiful lands.

Illians should have also the ability to turn lakes into frozen lakes, and the rivers to frozen rivers as well.

War Chicken
Jan 20, 2010, 09:46 AM
I just develloped my first Thunderlizard...

... ... Oh My God!

darkedone02
Jan 20, 2010, 09:25 PM
I prefer that the animals stay on my base, I have enough barbarians attacking my cities, hell most of my games, I see a civ already been annihilated in around 20 turns in a normal game launch (non-custom game). Yeah, I recommend that the barbarians are nerfed and the animals as well. I've make sure my animal invasion is always turned off!

Vorpal+5
Jan 21, 2010, 03:51 AM
Hi,

I'm curious how to change the sound made when a bounty hunter promoted units kill an enemy? I searched in xml and pythons files without luck.

Also, how can I reduce the duration of some diplomatic penalties? I had the bad idea of trading ONE tech to the Orcs, while I only knew them, and now the Elohim that I just discovered suffer a -4 because I traded with their worst enemy. And I know it will last the whole game almost, how can I tune that? I'm unsure of the meanings of <ContactRand>, <ContactDelay>, <MemoryDecay>, <iMemoryAttitudePercent> ...

I would say that

<MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_REFUSED_HELP</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>

means that every 100 turns there is one point of penalty removed?

Sarisin
Jan 21, 2010, 07:37 AM
I just develloped my first Thunderlizard...

... ... Oh My God!

I had the same feeling the first time I got one. It ranks up there with the great moments in Civ4/FFH/RiFE

Since then I've found it really isn't so hard to get them IF you have a good number of Lizards on the map. Catching a few with your Scout is rather easy, and then, you just have to make sure you use your Lizards for combat. They upgrade to Lizard Pack, Giant Lizard, Giant Lizard Pack, and then the Big Guy himself.

The Lightning Breath (love that name!) can be devastating, but the spell is often resisted.

The only limitation, of course, is your Lizards, etc. being unable to move on to Ice or Tundra tiles. I am at war with the Frozen in my current game rendering my Lizard tough guys useless.

PS. How to replace the Santa smilies?:);):(:D:p:blush::rolleyes::mad:

Pakhawaj
Jan 21, 2010, 09:15 AM
I recently triggered the event where you acquire a disciple of a religion from a dungeon, I wonder if these have been updated so you can get a disciple of the new two religions? (Sorry I keep banging on about these, they must be on my mind!)
You should create more events, there doesn't seem to be so many and I'm sure some civilisations or religions are lacking in interesting flavourful options.

Valkrionn
Jan 21, 2010, 09:17 AM
No, those haven't been updated. :lol: Should really do that....

adecoy95
Jan 21, 2010, 05:25 PM
perhaps i am missing something, but i just tried the white hand religion in a game recently as cabalim, holy crap, it totally crippled me. is this religion only supposed to be used with the illians?

Valkrionn
Jan 21, 2010, 06:20 PM
Give it a little time; After around 30 turns, Snow becomes Glacier, and rivers gain Crystal Plains. Still not great, but seeing as Hell Terrain won't hurt you, and the religion grants hammers in your cities, it should be a viable option.

Civs built entirely around food (Calabim) would dislike it, though. Oddly, the Khazad with their massive production from little population could be one of the best suited for it....

Sarisin
Jan 22, 2010, 10:54 AM
I thought the Frozen had been tweaked so they would no longer run up the score and have those humungous pop cities?

They entered my game, as they do EVERY game if you don't shut off Liberation, and within 100 turns had the highest game score.

Also, their capital city grew to a pop of 86 in that short of a time period.

Standard map/Normal game speed.

Also, it seems their $#@! blizzards, snow, ice, whatever cold crap lasts around a long time really creating a fun micromanaging job for Scorching Adepts. :crazyeye:

War Chicken
Jan 22, 2010, 11:22 AM
In my Game I am leader of the food chain (scoreboard) even the Frozen have rediculous City sizes:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=240798&stc=1&d=1264184359

Note that the cities aren't size 22 and 55 but 122 and 155!
Someone's crying for a nerf over there :lol:


Next thing is a minor bug - when the Mercurians pop into existence there is a little error:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=240799&stc=1&d=1264184359

This is also displayed at the top of the screen with the other "news".

EDIT: Oh, I misposted that one - it was meant to go to the Bugreport thread. Sorry for that.

Niveras
Jan 22, 2010, 11:38 AM
I had an idea about salvaging the uber-strength animals, in an attempt to keep the 'world's a dangerous place feel' and maybe bring back some of what Kael's talking about in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=350770). Specifically:

Wilderness Areas: Areas that have to be conquered before they are available to settlement. You may need to clear out the monsters, defeat a boss monster, or whatever. They should be formed by natural borders (such as rivers, mountain ranges and forests) and we would have a few different types with different properties. Some may require units to be a certain level before they can enter them. This idea became explorable lairs, which is a much more realistic vision of it. Though I still dream about the origional idea (i know a lot of the team really liked it).

What about, instead of having the powerful creatures free to rampage around the map as they please, you turn their lairs into cultural zones like forts, and the powerful creatures are only able to move around in their cultural zones/territory? Weaker units, under the guise of having to "go out to find territory" would be the only ones free to leave the borders. If a weak animal unit somehow survives long enough, maybe to the point of becoming a beast (or later still if balance requires it), the unit forms a lair and a new territory region for that creature is spawned.

Inside these territory regions would roam either packs or strong (e.g. the currently bugged out strength, maybe a little weaker) single units to simulate these areas being extremely savage and requiring an organized effort to clear and make safe. These territory regions should also take precedence over your cultural borders, showing that it takes an organized effort to make the region safe (and to prevent potential bugs like creatures getting pushed into your territory, then free to run about as they please, when they should not be able to). Owing to this, lairs should probably not spawn for the first couple of turns, and they should not spawn within several tiles of cultural borders either, though the intent is to make it feel like these lairs and regions have been around for centuries, before civilizations begin to re-emerge.

This might also be applied to barb units, although I guess cities work fine there. (On the flip side, if barbs only use forts, you can allow players to populate the fort after conquering it, turning it into a city, maybe with some initial defensive buildings.) In this case, though the barb population is very dense in their "cultural" radius or territory (simulating a very barbaric region that needs to be pacified), they send out raiding parties whose strength is based on the world's tech level. Depending on how much lag it induces the units inside the territory should fight themselves and (very) slowly gain in strength, as you'd imagine barbarians would do when they're not out raiding. The raiding parties would be independent and would be more akin to the current flavor of barbs who venture out and invade your territory.

This allows you to keep some of the stronger units around, like minotaur and hill giants (or sabertooth tigers or giant scorpions), but they are limited to their territories. Weaker units would be pushed out, the ones who need to establish their own territory, and they are the ones you need to defend against.

From what little I know of such things, I suspect it would be difficult to use map-generated features (like mountains and rivers, as Kael mentions) to limit territories, but that would be a neat addition if it is possible.

Valkrionn
Jan 22, 2010, 11:45 AM
Hmm... That's a very intriguing idea. :goodjob:

While doing it exactly as you describe would be a bit complex (Would need to use the leash mechanic, so either lots of python or lots of DLL work moving it into XML), it would probably be quite simple to add a new tag to units/promotions which forces a unit to remain in it's civ's territory, and enabling lairs as 'forts'. We could then have strong animals wandering the 'Wilderness', but they'd be able to wander the full extent of the 'wilderness' instead of just that around their own lair. ;)

arcticnightwolf
Jan 22, 2010, 12:08 PM
nice idea ... :) ... looking forward to see this implemented :D

Valkrionn
Jan 22, 2010, 12:12 PM
Doubt it'll be in the upcoming patch (unless I slip it in while the testers have it.... :mischief:), but I'll probably do it, yes. Maybe as a little module at first. ;)

Would probably make a good 'Challenge' game option, even if we don't use it as a base mechanic.

KillerClowns
Jan 22, 2010, 08:41 PM
Sorry if I'm singing a familiar song, but the Legion of D'tesh seriously needs something to keep it from oblivion in the early game.
They start the match with 2:strength: warriors, which is a painful beginning. Except they're actually 1:strength: against the undead, demonic and angelic entities that roam Erebus. And it takes a while before the player can get anything, anything better. By which time you are likely to have been annihilated already. Something should be done to change the Legion's early-game survival odds from "LOL" to "rough start, but if you make it..." I'd suggest a unique archer unit, a la Lucian, for the start of the game to guard their initial city, which can't gain XP, but can keep you from being exterminated.

Valkrionn
Jan 22, 2010, 09:13 PM
Sorry if I'm singing a familiar song, but the Legion of D'tesh seriously needs something to keep it from oblivion in the early game.
They start the match with 2:strength: warriors, which is a painful beginning. Except they're actually 1:strength: against the undead, demonic and angelic entities that roam Erebus. And it takes a while before the player can get anything, anything better. By which time you are likely to have been annihilated already. Something should be done to change the Legion's early-game survival odds from "LOL" to "rough start, but if you make it..." I'd suggest a unique archer unit, a la Lucian, for the start of the game to guard their initial city, which can't gain XP, but can keep you from being exterminated.

I've been thinking about starting them with a Dullahan unit.

I'm also thinking of tweaking the way different units work for the leaders... For one thing, under BOTH leaders, recon units lose the permanent invisibility for a turn after attacking. Under D'tesh alone, recon units would be unable to kill enemy units, like Haunts or Illusions. Under Thanatos, Arcane units would be weakened in some way (not sure how yet). In compensation, some other line (Likely Archery, as they're the only other one able to gain xp) will be enhanced in some way, made the 'neutral' unit. Defensive, of course. One easy thing to do would be to make a weak, tier 1 archery unit, and start them with one of those instead of warriors. ;)

Also thinking of making some more building replacements like the Morgue... Need ideas there, though.

I'm considering limiting the number of cities they can settle; Not sure how many, and not sure if I can do this without allowing settlements. Which would be bad, as I want to merge the Orbis settlement code. :lol:

Improvements have already been changed. The D'tesh only get 5 improvements (7, counting upgrades), and all have unique art:


Pyre - Only valid on organic resources. I've made sure that ALL non-seafood organic resources are valid here. Converts them to Ash, which increases research for every ash you possess (+1%, so 5 give you +5%)
Crypt - Buildable on any flat terrain. Now acts as a Quarry with respect to resources.
Catacombs - Mine replacement. Same yields as mine (aside from the removal of mushrooms), mostly an art replacement.
Corrupted Pasture - Converts any Bison, Camel, Cow, Horse into Nightmares. It also massively increases the plotcounter for this tile... Be careful with it, or hell will spread through your territory (terrain won't change, but if it gets OUT of your territory demons will spawn)
Mausoleum (Lesser/Greater) - Fort replacement. Entirely graphical. Lesser Mausoleum -> Mausoleum -> Greater Mausoleum


Probably quite a bit else that could be done, but I spend an inordinate amount of time on them as is... Quite honestly, they are my favorite (existing) civ.

Korias
Jan 22, 2010, 11:41 PM
D'Teshi Improvements

This makes me very happy: In many games, the D'teshi quickly become a province/vassal (assuming they survive until Feudalism) an in many cases are overrun by their next door neighbor in an early war.

Why not give them an ability similar to the Clan's "Hire Goblin" that can be cast on Burrows or City Ruins that gives them skeletons or wraiths? Perhaps that would make the D'teshi a bit stronger early on while Burrows are still in play.

Valkrionn
Jan 22, 2010, 11:52 PM
I'd rather not, as they aren't recruiting so much as dominating... And that's the province of D'tesh himself. :lol:

I may think more on it later, but I don't want to spend too much more time on them than I do on others. :lol: Grigori are in need of some attention now... Just need to make up some worker promotions first.

In other news, two things:

Mazatl/Cualli worker UU's combined into one 'Lizard Worker' able to build Routes. Can't get routes to function with PromotionBuilds, so this is a short term fix... Same stats as a worker, just builds Trails. Differentiated via promotion.

Mazatl workers don't have Spring. Instead, they have a dedicated 'Create Swamp' spell. Python for the 'Clear Swamp', 'Shape Jungle', and 'Deepen Forest' spells fixed, all functioning.
Malakim workers are no longer UU's, even though we can't affect routes... I CAN use python in the canBuild check, so when in desert terrain Malakim workers can not build roads. Desert People allows them to trade in desert.

Just finished setting up an SVN repository for the mod, which testers/people with Team Forum access will have download access to. Makes it easier for the team, as we (read: I) don't need to merge lots of files anymore. ;)

Schwarzbart
Jan 23, 2010, 12:43 AM
Niveras Idea soulds like it could be done as seperat Animal Civ with
- a Hold Boss monster in the main city
- a high starting Culture Radius
- Unability to build new Citys and to build tile improvments (this might be a probleme)
- Spreading Ancient Woods within Culture Radius so it get the "Natural Border"
- City keeps on 1 so as soon all city defender fall the city is destroyed and cant captured by tolerenat civs
- Peace with Animals
- Get huge boost to Unit combat stats withing border but weak outside it
- Build only animals

This is just a Idea that came to me reading Niveras Post

Edit: Idea for Worker is that they can only build Animal Dens and the City get bonis from them.
Sadly I have to vew time and are to less of a coder to bring this idea into a module.

Valkrionn
Jan 23, 2010, 01:43 AM
Why not simply allow lairs to produce culture? I see no benefit from adding a new civ specifically for this.

Also, no barb civs other than Orcs can control cities. Causes issues (graphical, but a blank city bar is a large issue IMO) otherwise.

sylvain5477
Jan 23, 2010, 02:03 PM
I think for this we would have to make fort culture able to compete with city culture. (which would be good :))

Valkrionn
Jan 23, 2010, 02:09 PM
Yeah, I'd have to look into that. Should be possible (via a new tag), just haven't looked at it yet. ;)

Wodan
Jan 24, 2010, 04:38 AM
What about barb undead are to DTeshi as barb orcs are to Clan? A minor help but a help.

ExMachina
Jan 24, 2010, 10:54 AM
Shouldn't Loki have a tech requirement? In one of my games, the Balseraphs built him in the early game and ended up taking over my 3rd (or perhaps 4th) city before I could build a monument. I ended up just restarting (with the Balseraphs disabled) because it screwed me over so badly.

Another thing I've noticed: the "culture" produced by forts doesn't seem to compete with cities at all. Culture produced by a city simply overrides the cultural control produced by the fort, which kinda makes the fort pointless.

Valkrionn
Jan 24, 2010, 11:48 AM
What about barb undead are to DTeshi as barb orcs are to Clan? A minor help but a help.

Problem with that is they are part of the Demon civ - If it was just skeletons I'd do it, but with all the other demons as well it would be too much. D'tesh is trying to take over all of Erebus, so he's at odds with demons trying to do the same.

Shouldn't Loki have a tech requirement? In one of my games, the Balseraphs built him in the early game and ended up taking over my 3rd (or perhaps 4th) city before I could build a monument. I ended up just restarting (with the Balseraphs disabled) because it screwed me over so badly.

Another thing I've noticed: the "culture" produced by forts doesn't seem to compete with cities at all. Culture produced by a city simply overrides the cultural control produced by the fort, which kinda makes the fort pointless.

Loki has never had a tech requirement... And honestly, I see no reason to change it. The AI using him effectively is not a reason to nerf him. :p

And fort culture DOES compete, but only the actual tile the fort is on. I plan to change that (the original mod doesn't allow them to compete at all, Ahwaric added the fort thing), but haven't gotten to it yet.

Swinkscalibur
Jan 24, 2010, 04:03 PM
If forts actually competed with cities for culture, the d'tesh being limited to a small number of civs without settlements isn't a problem. Their forts, could gain culture over time as cities with a unique tag. This solves the terrain and bonus control issues of limited cities and ensures the d'tesh cannot simply be culture pushed off of all their territory.

Niveras
Jan 27, 2010, 11:04 AM
I think part of the extreme-early-game vulnerability of the D'tesh is the plains->desert climate version on the way to wasteland. This causes a huge hit in hammer production in your first city, when you need all the hammers you can get to build defenders in your capital city. That their weak warriors also cannot level up from experience similarly feeds this weakness. (Where the occasionally victorious warrior multiplies its strength significantly, you need that many more warriors to cover what a promoted one could handle alone.)

Though this might be a less urgent issue once the special barbarians units are toned down and D'tesh given a defender in their capital city, as you mentioned in another thread. Also, it could intended that players survive the extremely luck-based early game in order to have such a powerful late-game civ.

Randomness
Jan 27, 2010, 12:50 PM
I think an archery UU for the warior would be good. That way it gains xp, but cannot be used to mass produce 2+12death str units.

Valkrionn
Jan 27, 2010, 01:16 PM
I think part of the extreme-early-game vulnerability of the D'tesh is the plains->desert climate version on the way to wasteland. This causes a huge hit in hammer production in your first city, when you need all the hammers you can get to build defenders in your capital city. That their weak warriors also cannot level up from experience similarly feeds this weakness. (Where the occasionally victorious warrior multiplies its strength significantly, you need that many more warriors to cover what a promoted one could handle alone.)

Though this might be a less urgent issue once the special barbarians units are toned down and D'tesh given a defender in their capital city, as you mentioned in another thread. Also, it could intended that players survive the extremely luck-based early game in order to have such a powerful late-game civ.

What I'm planning on doing is only allowing climates to revert if you select a game option (EZMode option, as with No Barbs, or any others). This would let me bring down the time it takes to get Wasteland.... It's only so high atm because that way it takes a while to revert, as well. Spring can remove it already, so it's not hard to remove; Just wouldn't be automatic.

I think an archery UU for the warior would be good. That way it gains xp, but cannot be used to mass produce 2+12death str units.

Yeah, I like the idea too. :goodjob:

adecoy95
Jan 27, 2010, 01:36 PM
is it intended for the archos to have strength 12 spider swarms by turn 20?

Sarisin
Jan 27, 2010, 02:13 PM
I'm also seeing some bizarre things like this. The Svartalfar with Rangers before Turn 100. The Mechanos with Hand Gunners around Turn 75. Champions and iron weapons appearing in games before Turn 100. The Illians built Wilboman exactly on Turn 67. These really shocked me especially since they always build that stupid Samhain from the get-go. :D

I am playing at Normal speed and I just don't get these early stronger units UNLESS the AI is very lucky popping goody huts or something. I play at Emperor and I know the goody huts I hit for tech usually give me only 40 beakers or thereabouts. I had one the other day that gave me 1 beaker!:crazyeye:

Maybe they are beelining certain techs to get these early stronger units and maybe that helps keep them in the game against uber-animal units. But, still, I rarely get units like this until much later in the game.

This is one reason I like being able to capture animals to compete with the AI stronger units showing up very quickly.

And, I am always mystified when you see something like Arthuras Thorne founding ROK on Turn 62. :confused:

adecoy95
Jan 27, 2010, 03:48 PM
its probably because of your difficulty settinng, what im referring to is from player control

the archos is a pretty cool faction, but they should not have a 10% chance after every combat to have the spiders turned into a spider swarm, couldent it be tied to a tech, like the other animal factions animals?

Valkrionn
Jan 27, 2010, 04:44 PM
They no longer do. Looking at Vermicious's updated files now; No animals (but Hamsters, apparently. :mischief:) have the ability to upgrade post combat. Instead, all upgrades are done via spell, and only when the animal has aged enough (rely on age promotions like Jotnar; 100, 150, 200, 300).

Lots of other changes in store as well.

odalrick
Jan 27, 2010, 05:47 PM
Instead, all upgrades are done via spell

Why by spell rather than automatic?

Valkrionn
Jan 27, 2010, 05:55 PM
Why by spell rather than automatic?

How exactly would it be done automatically? The animals do not have cities where they can upgrade normally. Upgrading via combat doesn't work, as it leads to strong animals too early. Any other option?

Vermicious Knid
Jan 27, 2010, 05:57 PM
Why by spell rather than automatic?


The spell is a convenience that allows me to do it all in XML. Human players will never see or use the spell.

What you will see is animals that have been allowed to survive and wander transform to bigger, nastier versions. The current rate at which that will happen is a first draft...I will probably adjust based on tester feedback.

Sarisin
Jan 27, 2010, 06:15 PM
I'm anxious to see how this will work. Are you saying that these aged, bigger and nastier animals will still be capturable?

If so, I think this will be a lot of fun. Again, the strategy (as it is now with Animals, Orthus, etc.) would be to use lesser units to weaken the 'beast' and then, capture/kill it. Now, you wouldn't go and give them all cannibalize would you.

I agree that often animals get promoted to a more powerful version too easily. However, I currently have a strength 3 Lizard with more than 100 XP -figure that one out! I'd still like to see a CHANCE of a surprise upgrade based on combat. Oh, make it 1% or something. :)

Vermicious Knid
Jan 27, 2010, 06:17 PM
I'm anxious to see how this will work. Are you saying that these aged, bigger and nastier animals will still be capturable?

If so, I think this will be a lot of fun. Again, the strategy (as it is now with Animals, Orthus, etc.) would be to use lesser units to weaken the 'beast' and then, capture/kill it. Now, you wouldn't go and give them all cannibalize would you.

I agree that often animals get promoted to a more powerful version too easily. However, I currently have a strength 3 Lizard with more than 100 XP -figure that one out! I'd still like to see a CHANCE of a surprise upgrade based on combat. Oh, make it 1% or something. :)


They will eventually become beasts, but it takes a very long time. So...always capturable, but more difficult as time goes on.

adecoy95
Jan 27, 2010, 06:21 PM
will they age after they have been captured?

Vermicious Knid
Jan 27, 2010, 06:24 PM
will they age after they have been captured?


Yes...but you won't be able to do anything triggered on age. All of that is limited to the animal civ.


There are more animal changes that Valk hasn't touched on. Suffice it to say that strategies based on animal capture will require some adjustment. :mischief:

Valkrionn
Jan 27, 2010, 06:49 PM
Yeah, gonna keep the rest as a surprise. Testers will be getting the files soon. ;)

adecoy95
Jan 27, 2010, 09:03 PM
well as long as i can play with the archos without feeling like im cheating, i will be happy :D

odalrick
Jan 28, 2010, 05:34 AM
How exactly would it be done automatically? The animals do not have cities where they can upgrade normally. Upgrading via combat doesn't work, as it leads to strong animals too early. Any other option?

The way I do it is place an upgrade effect in the PyPerTurn of a promotion that is acquired when the unit should upgrade.

Excerpt from Golem Workshops:

PromotionInfos:<PromotionInfo> <!-- Turn Back to Wood Golem -->
<Type>PROMOTION_TURN_BACK_TO_WOOD_GOLEM</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_TURN_BACK_TO_WOOD_GOLEM</Description>
<PromotionPrereqOr1>PROMOTION_WORKSHOP_WOOD_GOLEM</PromotionPrereqOr1>
<PromotionPrereq>PROMOTION_WORKSHOP_CONTRACT_ENDED</PromotionPrereq>
<bEffectProm>1</bEffectProm>
<bAutoAcquire>1</bAutoAcquire>
<bMustMaintain>1</bMustMaintain>
<bNoXP>1</bNoXP>
<PrereqbAllowNULLUnitCombat>1</PrereqbAllowNULLUnitCombat>
<PrereqUnits>
<PrereqUnit>UNIT_WORKSHOP_GOLEM</PrereqUnit>
</PrereqUnits>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Modules\NormalModules\Golem_Workshops\art\golem_wo rkshops.dds</Button>
<PyPerTurn>pCaster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_BECOME _WOOD_GOLEM'))</PyPerTurn>
</PromotionInfo>


SpellInfos:<SpellInfo> <!-- Become Wood Golem -->
<Type>SPELL_BECOME_WOOD_GOLEM</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BECOME_WOOD_GOLEM</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BECOME_WOOD_GOLEM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_NEVER</TechPrereq>
<bDisplayWhenDisabled>0</bDisplayWhenDisabled>
<ConvertUnitType>UNIT_WOOD_GOLEM</ConvertUnitType>
<AddPromotionType1>PROMOTION_CLEAR_WORKSHOP_CONTRACT</AddPromotionType1>
<bBuffCasterOnly>1</bBuffCasterOnly>
<PyRequirement>False</PyRequirement>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Units/Wood Golem.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>


The spell is a convenience that allows me to do it all in XML. Human players will never see or use the spell.

If upgrading animals become an Animal civ only thing, it doesn't matter that they have to cast a spell. Only if humans could chose not to upgrade would it be weird.

It does beg the question of what will happen to Archos Baby Spiders, though.

Valkrionn
Jan 28, 2010, 05:39 AM
Baby spiders have a promotion which is similar to what you displayed; Involves python as it's a rand, but they've had it for a LONG time. Going to try to set it up so that HN units with the bAnimal tag display the animal flag; Archos will get HN UU's of the spiders, able to upgrade. Not sure if it will be normally or via combat.

xienwolf
Jan 28, 2010, 09:01 AM
Easier than making the HN animals show animal flag would be to have the flag just fail to show at all for HN units, and remove the Leader Name from their mouseover text.

Valkrionn
Jan 28, 2010, 09:12 AM
Easier than making the HN animals show animal flag would be to have the flag just fail to show at all for HN units, and remove the Leader Name from their mouseover text.

What would I modify for that?

Though then again, the whole point of HN is for it to look like it could be a barb; Removing the flag means you know for SURE it's not a barb. :lol:

Valkrionn
Jan 28, 2010, 09:57 PM
I had an idea about salvaging the uber-strength animals, in an attempt to keep the 'world's a dangerous place feel' and maybe bring back some of what Kael's talking about in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=350770). Specifically:



What about, instead of having the powerful creatures free to rampage around the map as they please, you turn their lairs into cultural zones like forts, and the powerful creatures are only able to move around in their cultural zones/territory? Weaker units, under the guise of having to "go out to find territory" would be the only ones free to leave the borders. If a weak animal unit somehow survives long enough, maybe to the point of becoming a beast (or later still if balance requires it), the unit forms a lair and a new territory region for that creature is spawned.

Inside these territory regions would roam either packs or strong (e.g. the currently bugged out strength, maybe a little weaker) single units to simulate these areas being extremely savage and requiring an organized effort to clear and make safe. These territory regions should also take precedence over your cultural borders, showing that it takes an organized effort to make the region safe (and to prevent potential bugs like creatures getting pushed into your territory, then free to run about as they please, when they should not be able to). Owing to this, lairs should probably not spawn for the first couple of turns, and they should not spawn within several tiles of cultural borders either, though the intent is to make it feel like these lairs and regions have been around for centuries, before civilizations begin to re-emerge.

This might also be applied to barb units, although I guess cities work fine there. (On the flip side, if barbs only use forts, you can allow players to populate the fort after conquering it, turning it into a city, maybe with some initial defensive buildings.) In this case, though the barb population is very dense in their "cultural" radius or territory (simulating a very barbaric region that needs to be pacified), they send out raiding parties whose strength is based on the world's tech level. Depending on how much lag it induces the units inside the territory should fight themselves and (very) slowly gain in strength, as you'd imagine barbarians would do when they're not out raiding. The raiding parties would be independent and would be more akin to the current flavor of barbs who venture out and invade your territory.

This allows you to keep some of the stronger units around, like minotaur and hill giants (or sabertooth tigers or giant scorpions), but they are limited to their territories. Weaker units would be pushed out, the ones who need to establish their own territory, and they are the ones you need to defend against.

From what little I know of such things, I suspect it would be difficult to use map-generated features (like mountains and rivers, as Kael mentions) to limit territories, but that would be a neat addition if it is possible.

Hmm... That's a very intriguing idea. :goodjob:

While doing it exactly as you describe would be a bit complex (Would need to use the leash mechanic, so either lots of python or lots of DLL work moving it into XML), it would probably be quite simple to add a new tag to units/promotions which forces a unit to remain in it's civ's territory, and enabling lairs as 'forts'. We could then have strong animals wandering the 'Wilderness', but they'd be able to wander the full extent of the 'wilderness' instead of just that around their own lair. ;)

This post had nothing to do with my moving the Leash mechanic into XML. Nothing at all. Honest. :mischief:

Palius84
Jan 29, 2010, 05:16 AM
The Great Generals as captains is a great addition to any mod. I would just wish that someone would take is a step further and try to be do what the people in The History of Three Kingdoms Mod did! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7610520) They added an interface for choosing which units to add to the leaders. Quite a few other things. I wish this mod would be able to include some of those wonderful things. This modmod is a wonderful addition to the already great parent mods.

xienwolf
Jan 29, 2010, 08:04 AM
To remove the flags and leader names, you would search the DLL for VisualOwner. That shouldn't get you too many other results than those which are important. And I am relatively certain I remembered the function name properly :)

Yes, no flag means you know it isn't a barbarian unit, unless barbarians semi-frequently also have HN status, which would be the case for most HN animal types.

I suppose that since the barbarians are unable to spawn anything which isn't specifically listed as a valid unit for them, you could fairly easily check which barbarian civ would possibly spawn the HN unit, and show the appropriate civ as the visible owner. Or just a unitinfos tag which states who they should appear to belong to if ever HN for a simple solution.

Randomness
Jan 31, 2010, 12:43 PM
I've had an idea for a Malkim leader Semerkhet.

I thought it would be cool if there was a leader that followed "the old ways". This leader would be agnostic, and would have several UU (egypitan mythology based) that are linked to agnostic. He would be an emergent leader, and his starting trait would either be Spititual or Agressive. His alignment would be Nutral Lawful (0 to -50 Nutral).

Valkrionn
Jan 31, 2010, 01:17 PM
Find a good pic and I'll likely put him in. ;)

KillerClowns
Jan 31, 2010, 01:39 PM
I've had an idea for a Malkim leader Semerkhet.

I thought it would be cool if there was a leader that followed "the old ways". This leader would be agnostic, and would have several UU (egypitan mythology based) that are linked to agnostic. He would be an emergent leader, and his starting trait would either be Spititual or Agressive. His alignment would be Nutral Lawful (0 to -50 Nutral).

Nice idea. That reminds me, though, I've been thinking of the Malakim leaders, and what each brings to the table. The Malakim have two main advantages; Deserts and Disciples.
Decius: As we know and love him; Decius is Decius.
Varn Gosam: As we know and love him. Disciples focused.
Kane: I see him as leading the Malakim too fiercely independent to kneel before a "weakling" religion like the Empyrean. He could work for a Desert focused leader. As such, I have some suggestions: Make him prefer the Runes of Kilmorph or the Order, and switch him to Expansive/Organized to allow for a large, sprawling empire in the desert, at the cost of the awesomeness of Adaptive and the synergy Varn has with the Malakim's disciple focus and his spiritual trait. The Expansive will make Flood Plains even less of a worry than before, and help him get settlers aplenty out, while the Organized, combined with either of his preferred religions will help him keep a massive empire in order; he doesn't have any directly warlike traits, but with the empire he'll be able to build, he may not need them to be a deadly opponent.
Semerkhet: I like the idea, an Emergent leader (although now built as per the Ominous Mysterious Project) to blur the line between Disciple focus and Desert focus. Should have a trait akin to Agnostic/Emperor's Cult that allows him to train a special disciple line and temples for his pagan religion. He'd need a modified version of Religious Fervor, though, being unable to adopt a state religion. We have enough religions as it is, though, and I can't see old-fashioned Malakim bothering to spread their old ways like the other religions spread their beliefs.

Randomness
Jan 31, 2010, 02:31 PM
One of these pics might be alright. Overall I think the second would work best, possible the third.


The first one is a little to warlordish.

The second one is my favorite.

The third is okay, but he does have a cross... I guess it could be cropped out

The last image is a little old, and has goggles...

Valkrionn
Jan 31, 2010, 02:37 PM
Hmm... Honestly, I don't like any of them. They don't 'fit' with the rest of the leader art, basically.

Randomness
Jan 31, 2010, 02:37 PM
I know, it's so hard to find good art...

Valkrionn
Jan 31, 2010, 02:41 PM
Hehe, I know. That's why I didn't want to do it. :lol:

adecoy95
Feb 01, 2010, 11:08 AM
whats the difference between a :gold: and a :commerce:

Milaga
Feb 01, 2010, 02:47 PM
Haven't had much time to play FfH because of various real life issues, holidays and whatnot. But having just got a new computer I decided to see how it runs Civ. Already downloaded Rife/Rise/Valkrionn+ so gonna try a game or two with the Clan to see how these changes play out. Despite being so nicely warmongering they always seemed so bland.

whats the difference between a :gold: and a :commerce:

:gold: is gold. Money.

:commerce: is commerce. Depending on how you have your research and cultural sliders it will turn into some combination of :gold:, :culture: and :science:.

Valkrionn
Feb 01, 2010, 02:50 PM
Haven't had much time to play FfH because of various real life issues, holidays and whatnot. But having just got a new computer I decided to see how it runs Civ. Already downloaded Rife/Rise/Valkrionn+ so gonna try a game or two with the Clan to see how these changes play out. Despite being so nicely warmongering they always seemed so bland.



:gold: is gold. Money.

:commerce: is commerce. Depending on how you have your research and cultural sliders it will turn into some combination of :gold:, :culture: and :science:.

The Clan don't have many changes in the current version. More coming in the next, of course. :lol:

Milaga
Feb 01, 2010, 07:22 PM
The Clan don't have many changes in the current version. More coming in the next, of course. :lol:

Maybe not, but the small changes that are in plus the RiFE changes make it play very differently than it does in vanilla FfH! I already played two quick games and abandoned both.

First one was Jonas Endain. I waited until I found my first opponent before popping For the Horde. The barbarians I got set to plundering their lair and before long I had just shy of 500 gold and the new found goodie huts gave me a nice bump in techs. I declared war on the Elohim and rushed him with the new barbarians, taking out all the defenders outside the city. I sat my boss outside the Elohim capital, hired then enlisted two archers and started peppering the Elohim with arrows while turn after turn the boss kept hiring warriors. Once I had about twice as many warriors as the Elohim. Waaargh! The capital fell and it had an amazing starting plot. It was about turn 50. By Turn 70 there were so many barbarian cities from the forts I had captured and Acheron spawned. By turn 100 the barbarians had killed two more civs, leaving only three opponents for me. I had built all the early wonders and had a massive tech lead, so I called it a win and decided to try again.

My game with the Hafgan the Purger was far different. My starting plot was amazing, four riverside mushrooms! There was a lot more thick forest and I lost a lot of Bosses to Treants. I finally found the Grigori on the other side of a large mountain range, I DoW'd and hit For the Horde. This time I had a lot worse luck with the lairs. There were dread hampsters everywhere. And since goblins don't get defense bonuses anymore they were getting mauled by the wildlife, who were getting nice promotions. My attack on the Grigori stalled because of a pack of scorpions (8 strength.) Once the scorpioins took the chokepoint, my army was cut off and was dismantled by Hippogriffs, Scorpions and Treants.

There's now Malaevolent Flora (or the ocean) isolating me from the rest of the civs. Both of my workers were just killed, one by a baby spider and the other by a fully promoted S6 M4 flock of Hippogriffs that invaded my borders! I called it quits on turn 75. I had just built up a substantial warparty, killed the Hippogriffs and broke their eggs. As soon as the warparty steps outside our borders they are mauled run screaming in terror from a Pack of Cave Bears.

Two very different experiences, both interesting games. I'm going to play with Sheelba next to see if I can split the difference. :)

A bit o' feedback:
* Turn 75 on standard speed, a Combat 3 Strength 18 animal unit that causes fear? Is that normal?
* Animals, of course, shouldn't come into my cultural borders and kill my workers. It appears there's a bug (prolly in the FF code for the animal civ) code. Animals that are already in cultural borders (even Barbarian) can move freely within the borders at will. Animals can get placed into cultural borders when the borders expand. I saw this happen once in my first game. I had a Treant pinned between peaks and my borders. When my borders expanded it went on a rampage. In the second game I never even saw the Hippogriff Flight, probably because it was in the borders of a barbarian fort that was touching my border.
* The animals seem to really, really hate the Clan. Or are they just even more dangerous in RiFE than they were in FF+?
* The behavior with regards to forts and the clan is somewhat confusing and inconsistent. Forts/Castles/Citadels discovered in the wild can be claimed, placing an Overlord in power. This overlord will eventually revolt, turning it to a barbarian owned fort. Some goblin forts, once looted, turn into cities the next turn. Others turn into forts, with an Overlord, who revolts, returning it to the barbarians. Bosses can create a fort, but they do not have Overlords, only simple fort commanders. It also seems a little powerful that from turn 1 the Clan can build very cheap units that can put forts wherever they want in only 3 turns. The Clan needed this kinda boost, and I don't see it being that overpowered in the later game (which I haven't got to yet.)
* I like the bosses. Somehow I wish that units that didn't have a leader were penalized, or that having a leader would remove the negative aspects of being "undisciplined." Perhaps having a Boss as leader would lower the chance of For The Horde units reverting to barbarians. I imagine they are complete assassin fodder. I don't see them as being useful for anything but absorbing assassin attacks.

Valkrionn
Feb 01, 2010, 07:59 PM
Maybe not, but the small changes that are in plus the RiFE changes make it play very differently than it does in vanilla FfH! I already played two quick games and abandoned both.

First one was Jonas Endain. I waited until I found my first opponent before popping For the Horde. The barbarians I got set to plundering their lair and before long I had just shy of 500 gold and the new found goodie huts gave me a nice bump in techs. I declared war on the Elohim and rushed him with the new barbarians, taking out all the defenders outside the city. I sat my boss outside the Elohim capital, hired then enlisted two archers and started peppering the Elohim with arrows while turn after turn the boss kept hiring warriors. Once I had about twice as many warriors as the Elohim. Waaargh! The capital fell and it had an amazing starting plot. It was about turn 50. By Turn 70 there were so many barbarian cities from the forts I had captured and Acheron spawned. By turn 100 the barbarians had killed two more civs, leaving only three opponents for me. I had built all the early wonders and had a massive tech lead, so I called it a win and decided to try again.

My game with the Hafgan the Purger was far different. My starting plot was amazing, four riverside mushrooms! There was a lot more thick forest and I lost a lot of Bosses to Treants. I finally found the Grigori on the other side of a large mountain range, I DoW'd and hit For the Horde. This time I had a lot worse luck with the lairs. There were dread hampsters everywhere. And since goblins don't get defense bonuses anymore they were getting mauled by the wildlife, who were getting nice promotions. My attack on the Grigori stalled because of a pack of scorpions (8 strength.) Once the scorpioins took the chokepoint, my army was cut off and was dismantled by Hippogriffs, Scorpions and Treants.

There's now Malaevolent Flora (or the ocean) isolating me from the rest of the civs. Both of my workers were just killed, one by a baby spider and the other by a fully promoted S6 M4 flock of Hippogriffs that invaded my borders! I called it quits on turn 75. I had just built up a substantial warparty, killed the Hippogriffs and broke their eggs. As soon as the warparty steps outside our borders they are mauled run screaming in terror from a Pack of Cave Bears.

Two very different experiences, both interesting games. I'm going to play with Sheelba next to see if I can split the difference. :)

A bit o' feedback:
* Turn 75 on standard speed, a Combat 3 Strength 18 animal unit that causes fear? Is that normal?
* Animals, of course, shouldn't come into my cultural borders and kill my workers. It appears there's a bug (prolly in the FF code for the animal civ) code. Animals that are already in cultural borders (even Barbarian) can move freely within the borders at will. Animals can get placed into cultural borders when the borders expand. I saw this happen once in my first game. I had a Treant pinned between peaks and my borders. When my borders expanded it went on a rampage. In the second game I never even saw the Hippogriff Flight, probably because it was in the borders of a barbarian fort that was touching my border.
* The animals seem to really, really hate the Clan. Or are they just even more dangerous in RiFE than they were in FF+?
* The behavior with regards to forts and the clan is somewhat confusing and inconsistent. Forts/Castles/Citadels discovered in the wild can be claimed, placing an Overlord in power. This overlord will eventually revolt, turning it to a barbarian owned fort. Some goblin forts, once looted, turn into cities the next turn. Others turn into forts, with an Overlord, who revolts, returning it to the barbarians. Bosses can create a fort, but they do not have Overlords, only simple fort commanders. It also seems a little powerful that from turn 1 the Clan can build very cheap units that can put forts wherever they want in only 3 turns. The Clan needed this kinda boost, and I don't see it being that overpowered in the later game (which I haven't got to yet.)
* I like the bosses. Somehow I wish that units that didn't have a leader were penalized, or that having a leader would remove the negative aspects of being "undisciplined." Perhaps having a Boss as leader would lower the chance of For The Horde units reverting to barbarians. I imagine they are complete assassin fodder. I don't see them as being useful for anything but absorbing assassin attacks.



No, it's not, and is fixed for the next version. Basically, animals (aside from Hamsters) no longer upgrade after combat. Instead, once they've reached a certain age they gain a spell which allows it. Animals won't upgrade nearly as fast now, but will instead upgrade at appropriate stages. ;)
That's no bug. In FF, animals can move freely in cultural borders, they just can't enter unless at peace (or crossing over from the border of a civ they are at peace with, so sharing borders with the Doviello is dangerous). In RifE, animals with the bExploreRivalTerritory tag are perfectly able to enter cultural territory, so long as the 'Animal Invasion' option is turned on. All animals gain this after they've been alive long enough, as well as becoming beasts... Next patch the option's function is reversed, so when you turn it ON they are unable to enter. Also renamed 'Timid Animals'.
They are far more dangerous than in FF. ;)
Yeah, that's being changed. Basically, fort commanders gain the 'Animosity' promotion, which has a chance to create a barb city... It's also why some cities didn't obey spacing restrictions. I've altered it so that it's Barb only (Clan doesn't have the effect), respects city spacing, and won't happen in owned territory.

On the whole 'Bosses can create a fort' thing... ALL UnitCombat_Commanders are able to do that. The only difference for the Clan is that they can directly build them... Bannor can do it too via the Chain of Command mechanic.

The Boss unit line has been expanded to cover the entire Recon line, but I've also removed the 'Enlist' spell... Clan worldspell was changed, that spell is too strong now. That said, having units lead by a Boss unit would be unable to revert to barb would be a good idea, will think about it.

Milaga
Feb 01, 2010, 10:19 PM
Ah. Now that I think about it, I suppose it makes sense about animals and borders. Animals who live outside of civilization would avoid it. Those use to it would react to threats normally, not scurry away from the loud, noisy orcs.

In my third game I didn't do too well with For the Horde either. In my first game I got a lot of Cyclops and even a Giant. Goblins really don't do very well versus either the animals or demons, and Minotaurs are always enraged. I'm not sure I see it as that overpowered. It certainly is more useful now, since there are a lot more barbarians and lairs.

My starting location was right next to a goblin fort. It turned into a city, which my city overpowered with it's culture and soon I had a double city.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=241697&stc=1&d=1265087339

Yeah, I'm a production powerhouse. :) It's probably good you are changing it.

Valkrionn
Feb 01, 2010, 10:24 PM
Ah. Now that I think about it, I suppose it makes sense about animals and borders. Animals who live outside of civilization would avoid it. Those use to it would react to threats normally, not scurry away from the loud, noisy orcs.

In my third game I didn't do too well with For the Horde either. In my first game I got a lot of Cyclops and even a Giant. Goblins really don't do very well versus either the animals or demons, and Minotaurs are always enraged. I'm not sure I see it as that overpowered. It certainly is more useful now, since there are a lot more barbarians and lairs.

My starting location was right next to a goblin fort. It turned into a city, which my city overpowered with it's culture and soon I had a double city.

Yeah, I'm a production powerhouse. :) It's probably good you are changing it.


Yeah, can't get cities placed next to each other like that anymore. Code checks to see if the plot is within the workable radius for a city (which ignores culture, it's 'is ever workable' not is workable now), if so, can't run. Also means it won't work within 3 tiles of a Kuriotate city.


Main reason FtH has been changed isn't because it's strong, but because it basically revealed the map for the Clan. New version is also strong (Actually, for the first few turns it's far stronger), but can't really explore. ;)

Ahovking
Feb 02, 2010, 04:58 AM
Bigger and better Civic Systems

Brokenbone
Feb 02, 2010, 07:53 AM
The Clan related posts inspired me to check out the changelog and try a Clan game, having fun with the "Boss" scouting around and doing a lot of different things. Maybe it's too early to tell yet, but it seemed he only had eligibility for limited promotions (Woodsman and Guerrilla), after that he could only get the fake levelup ones which heal you. Again, maybe some additional techs later will fix that, but I'd have thought stuff like Combat 1-5 and other "stuff" would be available, or better yet, commander promos to add command ranges and buffs. Maybe too powerful for a cheap Scout replacement though, who can hire all sorts of units, ha ha.

Vermicious Knid
Feb 02, 2010, 11:36 AM
That said, having units lead by a Boss unit would be unable to revert to barb would be a good idea, will think about it.


That is such an awesome idea I went backwards in time and did it before I sent you my latest files. :p

Valkrionn
Feb 02, 2010, 11:39 AM
Wait, we already have that? Didnt' even notice it. :lol:

Milaga
Feb 02, 2010, 01:26 PM
The Clan related posts inspired me to check out the changelog and try a Clan game, having fun with the "Boss" scouting around and doing a lot of different things. Maybe it's too early to tell yet, but it seemed he only had eligibility for limited promotions (Woodsman and Guerrilla), after that he could only get the fake levelup ones which heal you. Again, maybe some additional techs later will fix that, but I'd have thought stuff like Combat 1-5 and other "stuff" would be available, or better yet, commander promos to add command ranges and buffs. Maybe too powerful for a cheap Scout replacement though, who can hire all sorts of units, ha ha.

The boss should have the command promos available to him. At least my bosses do.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if Bosses should be able to hire while in enemy territory. Or if the units that are hired should be allowed to move that turn. A boss standing on an enemy town can pillage it all in one turn and get some units in the bargain.

Jheral
Feb 03, 2010, 03:11 AM
That said, having units lead by a Boss unit would be unable to revert to barb would be a good idea, will think about it.

This gave me a thought, regarding Great Commanders (or just the command system in general, really, since any unit can command), that could unlock a few... interesting possibilities.

Would it be possible to make units (that have been assigned to a commander, obviously) follow their commander, even if it breaks away from it's originating civ? Basically meaning that if a commander is converted (by a unit with Command, for instance), or turns barbarian (for whatever reason), his troops would turn with him, and stay under his command.

Perhaps even go so far as to introduce auto-assigned promotions, tied to age and level, that would add a chance for them to go barbarian?

It would give you another reason to protect your commanders, as well as making it a potential risk to use them too much.

(I'm sorry if this has been suggested before, by the way; I don't remember it being mentioned, but I won't pretend that I actually checked everywhere)

Trappisto
Feb 03, 2010, 03:16 PM
Hi

I played FFH2 loved it, then i found FF and loved it even more. Now i have found this mod Rise from Erebus. Very excited to play it but please can some 1 tell me if this is a Mod of FFH2 or FF? And is it kept in line with new versions of these Mods?

As for some dev suggestion, what about:

1. mimimum lvl req to explore/remove lairs to stop crappy scouts taking all the loot?
2. developements to increase strength of bows (Like copper, iron for mellee) - could be a forestry skill that reveals specific tree types within forest/jungle - e.g. Ash Longbows vs oak.
3. Random events to include quests for heros
4. Triggers to make all Good vs Evil alignments go to war. Perhaps there should be option for good & evil to start at war.

-Trap

Valkrionn
Feb 03, 2010, 03:22 PM
Hi

I played FFH2 loved it, then i found FF and loved it even more. Now i have found this mod Rise from Erebus. Very excited to play it but please can some 1 tell me if this is a Mod of FFH2 or FF? And is it kept in line with new versions of these Mods?

As for some dev suggestion, what about:

1. mimimum lvl req to explore/remove lairs to stop crappy scouts taking all the loot?
2. developements to increase strength of bows (Like copper, iron for mellee) - could be a forestry skill that reveals specific tree types within forest/jungle - e.g. Ash Longbows vs oak.
3. Random events to include quests for heros
4. Triggers to make all Good vs Evil alignments go to war. Perhaps there should be option for good & evil to start at war.

-Trap

Technically, this is an FF modmod. However, it is completely independent and has a standalone installer; No need to have FfH or FF to play it. And no, we don't merge every change from either of those mods. ;)

Making bows better is something I have half-planned, via Ironwood. We'll see. ;)

Beardy Dan
Feb 03, 2010, 08:11 PM
Got a couple of ideas/suggestions:

One thing that has been mildly annoying me for ages is buildings that give a free unique promo to units built in the city. Don't get me wrong, i like the building it just bugs me that for example my Chislev starting warrior that has killed hundreds of orcs can never get the Orc Slaying Promotion.
Playing the Dovilleo it really bugged me as an early slave raid on the dwarves that lived next door got me 3 workers that i upgraded to Son of Aesna that along with my starting beastmen and the Undead-Lizard Son of Aesna cant access them. :(

I would recommend a way of "learning" the promos like with the Mechanos Deamon Hunter.


With the prevalence of high Str & Move 2 critters out there the basic fort commanders seem a little weak, especially compared to some of the uniques.

The Dovilleo could do with a unique Fort commander, or at least different art. Perhaps an old hunter with a small ranged bombard who summons wolves that start with marksman?

For an Illian Unique Fort Commander how about an Ice Golem/Elemental with the Slow Spell?

2 more Spider promotion lines; Snow Spider(Same as Winterborn, requires white hand state religion)> Ice Spider(+1 ice combat, can cast Slow & Call Blizzard) and Fire Spider (+1 Fire combat, requires Ashen Veil state religion) > Deamon Spider (Race set to Deamon & explodes like a Pyre Zombie on death)

Valkrionn
Feb 03, 2010, 08:28 PM
Got a couple of ideas/suggestions:

One thing that has been mildly annoying me for ages is buildings that give a free unique promo to units built in the city. Don't get me wrong, i like the building it just bugs me that for example my Chislev starting warrior that has killed hundreds of orcs can never get the Orc Slaying Promotion.
Playing the Dovilleo it really bugged me as an early slave raid on the dwarves that lived next door got me 3 workers that i upgraded to Son of Aesna that along with my starting beastmen and the Undead-Lizard Son of Aesna cant access them. :(

I would recommend a way of "learning" the promos like with the Mechanos Deamon Hunter.

The issue here is that some of those promotions are quite strong... Shouldn't be granted to any unit who goes there. I'll go through the buildings; Any that can be built anywhere will be changed to work on all units who enter the city as well as those built, any wonders/national wonders/limited buildings will not. If they already work like that I'll leave them alone, of course.


With the prevalence of high Str & Move 2 critters out there the basic fort commanders seem a little weak, especially compared to some of the uniques.

The Dovilleo could do with a unique Fort commander, or at least different art. Perhaps an old hunter with a small ranged bombard who summons wolves that start with marksman?

For an Illian Unique Fort Commander how about an Ice Golem/Elemental with the Slow Spell?

I'll give them a good boost to animals... The real problem is that Fort Commanders don't upgrade, not really. Hard to get them balanced early game and late game.

The Illian fort commander used to get a promotion which freezed territory around it... That's not needed anymore though. Not sure I like the Ice Golem idea, but keep in mind Illian Fort Commanders are still able to freeze their culture; just happens automatically now.

As for Doviello, I like that idea. Will think about it.


2 more Spider promotion lines; Snow Spider(Same as Winterborn, requires white hand state religion)> Ice Spider(+1 ice combat, can cast Slow & Call Blizzard) and Fire Spider (+1 Fire combat, requires Ashen Veil state religion) > Deamon Spider (Race set to Deamon & explodes like a Pyre Zombie on death)

Hmm... Not bad suggestions, but if I added them I'd feel I had to add them for all religions, and I'd prefer not to do that.

Alasyre
Feb 04, 2010, 10:28 AM
The Scions should have a civ-specific religion, I think, or at least a civic that mimics a state religion. Something with a snazzy Latin name, since the civ seems to be one big imperial cult. I mean, theocracy would make sense as a civic for the Scions, maybe more than God-King, but it's useless without a religion. The religious aspect is already integral to the civ, with the unique buildings and all, but missing the actual religion makes it difficult to play the Scions as a religious civ. Know what I mean?

I'm thinking something like the Mechanos civ, in that it is founded at the start of the game.

Has this been discussed before? Seems like something that would have come up. I'm new to Rise from Erebus.

Valkrionn
Feb 04, 2010, 10:40 AM
The Scions should have a civ-specific religion, I think, or at least a civic that mimics a state religion. Something with a snazzy Latin name, since the civ seems to be one big imperial cult. I mean, theocracy would make sense as a civic for the Scions, maybe more than God-King, but it's useless without a religion. The religious aspect is already integral to the civ, with the unique buildings and all, but missing the actual religion makes it difficult to play the Scions as a religious civ. Know what I mean?

I'm thinking something like the Mechanos civ, in that it is founded at the start of the game.

Has this been discussed before? Seems like something that would have come up. I'm new to Rise from Erebus.

Look at the 'Emperor's Cult' trait. ;) Thanks to Opera, it has the same function (diplomacy wise) that religions do.

As for religion effects (Buildings, units, etc), they're all part of the civ already; Noone else would really adopt it.

As for Theocracy being useless... It has a VERY different mechanic in RifE.

Theocracy has been significantly reworked, after an idea by Shatner.

+3 :) with the state religion, +1 :mad: per non-state. +10% :gold:, -25% :science:, as well as applying the Zealotry promotion to all Disciple units.
Zealotry: 1 :gold: extra support cost, heal while moving, 50% upgrade discount, 20% city attack, and allows a 1-turn Inquisition and the Incite Fervor ability.
Incite Fervor - 3 turn casting time, requires the state religion in the city. Reduces pop by 3, causes unhappiness like whipping, and spawns three low-level religious units, depending on your religion. Allowed Scions to spawn their Legate UU, and the Mechanos to spawn their Adeptus UU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatner http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/blackcfc/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8097588#post8097588)
This would allow theocracy civs to rapidly mobilize an army of disciple units at the cost of their population/happiness AND allow those disciple units to become an effective mob. At the very least, it would be different, interesting and solidly change the role of Theocracy.


It actually works for the Scions. You're losing population if you summon the religious units, but the Zealotry promotion is quite nice... Particularly if you're going priest heavy to convert units into reborn.

Alasyre
Feb 04, 2010, 10:56 AM
I could be misunderstanding, but how do cities gain happiness from the religion if it doesn't exist as an actual religion? Cities can't have the religion, so how does the game recognize that the citizens should be happier? Comparing the happiness between my capital with theocracy and my capital without theocracy, I found no change.

Like I said, I might be misunderstanding it. The other aspects make sense, though.

Valkrionn
Feb 04, 2010, 11:13 AM
I could be misunderstanding, but how do cities gain happiness from the religion if it doesn't exist as an actual religion? Cities can't have the religion, so how does the game recognize that the citizens should be happier? Comparing the happiness between my capital with theocracy and my capital without theocracy, I found no change.

Like I said, I might be misunderstanding it. The other aspects make sense, though.

They don't. That's why I said the Zealotry effect was good. ;)

I'm not going to make a religion for the Scions, as noone else would use it. As it is, I'm considering removing Machinarum, or at least making it available to everyone; Possibly as an 'Agnostic' religion. Intolerant leaders (like the Emperor) still wouldn't be able to adopt it, while Agnostic could. Not set on that though, not sure how I feel about it.

Swinkscalibur
Feb 04, 2010, 07:23 PM
I like the idea of making Ordo more available. I could see the dwarven races running it easily (I think they already can right?), and certainly any agnostic leader besides the Emperor, Auric and Cassiel. I could also see the Doviello using it as well (since their hero is a man riding a machine anyway, speaking of their hero, it should gain machine spirit if they adopt Ordo). Dural and Austrin come to mind as possible converts as well (though it might look different for them, maybe even a break off of Ordo could be available more wide spread, a touch less screw the Gods, a little more look at what humans can do)

Valkrionn
Feb 04, 2010, 07:27 PM
I like the idea of making Ordo more available. I could see the dwarven races running it easily (I think they already can right?), and certainly any agnostic leader besides the Emperor, Auric and Cassiel. I could also see the Doviello using it as well (since their hero is a man riding a machine anyway, speaking of their hero, it should gain machine spirit if they adopt Ordo). Dural and Austrin come to mind as possible converts as well (though it might look different for them, maybe even a break off of Ordo could be available more wide spread, a touch less screw the Gods, a little more look at what humans can do)

All races can run it, it's just a matter of getting it. Though AI is set to not convert to it unless it's fairly widespread.

And yes, Cassiel is the one holdup I have with making it an Agnostic religion (By which I mean adoptable even by agnostic leaders). Auric is no longer Agnostic, he's 'Ice Touched'... Prevents all but White Hand.

Swinkscalibur
Feb 04, 2010, 07:35 PM
Cassiel could gain a unique trait instead of Agnostic. It seems some of the work by Grey Fox could make for an interesting idea here. I will post it in the testers area.

Edit: Posted in the thread for Grey Fox's work. (Testers only sorry, there is Top Secret info in the idea)

Vorpal+5
Feb 05, 2010, 08:58 AM
Just a note... I played the Austrin during 300 turns in a huge deity game (just my letter of marque to say I know them now :) ).

They have a few cool mechanic (particularly the prep expedition) but they are not very rich in feature compared to the Scions.

So I added something. I allow them to build adventurers (the grigori one), for 350 hammers, max one instance at a time (meaning they can only produce one at a time, as soon as he converts, you can build another)... but here is the trick... The cost of the adventurer increases as the Austrin gain access to resources... Up to triple cost almost (yes, something like 1000 prod).

Here is the rational, if you need one (aside the rubber band effect it provides): The richer the Austrin civilization, the more difficult it is to find bold men and women willing to embark on dangerous adventures (the cozy home effect)... so for example having a gold source increases the cost by +40%, etc.

Just an idea, if you want to flesh the Austrin. They need that to be even more interesting.

Valkrionn
Feb 05, 2010, 10:50 AM
The problem with that is it takes away from the Grigori, who ALSO need more to be interesting; I would honestly never implement something like that.

EDIT: Before it's mentioned... Yes, the Grigori and Austrin (and Dural) could easily be merged. And honestly, may be eventually, though I have no plans to do so currently.

Barak
Feb 05, 2010, 11:29 AM
Question.... what is with all the animals walking around on coast squares? Since my units (hunters really) can't attack them directly, there are tons of bears and wolves walking around that I cant touch.

Valkrionn
Feb 05, 2010, 11:30 AM
Question.... what is with all the animals walking around on coast squares? Since my units (hunters really) can't attack them directly, there are tons of bears and wolves walking around that I cant touch.

They have waterwalking. Being removed next version.

Valkrionn
Feb 05, 2010, 07:17 PM
So, was just in a discussion on #Erebus... Two ideas resulting from it.

The first I already had, just decided after some discussion that it fits and could be a good mechanic; The Machinarum religion will remain afterall, and will become adoptable by Agnostic leaders. Intolerant leaders (Emperor, etc) will be unable to adopt it.

The second is still in the conceptual stages... I like it (quite a bit, honestly :p) but need to think more about it to really make up my mind. Basically, to help distinguish the Dural and Grigori, give the Dural a Greek flavor and the Grigori a Roman (Republic) flavor. Would consider doing it the other way, but the Dural have a big culture/art/philosophy flavor already... Plus, the Roman Republic flavor is PERFECT for a certain Prime Minister Esirce..... ;)

odalrick
Feb 05, 2010, 09:58 PM
So I added something. I allow them to build adventurers (the grigori one), for 350 hammers, max one instance at a time (meaning they can only produce one at a time, as soon as he converts, you can build another)... but here is the trick... The cost of the adventurer increases as the Austrin gain access to resources... Up to triple cost almost (yes, something like 1000 prod).

How do you raise the unit cost?

The only way I know of is using CvGameUtils, have you found another way?

Jheral
Feb 05, 2010, 11:24 PM
Edit: Never mind; I wasn't thinking properly. Feel free to ignore this post.

JonQ
Feb 06, 2010, 07:42 AM
One thing that is a bit annoying with the mod is how every leader is possible to select when picking a civ in custom game.
Hard to remember what leader goes with what civ with so many of them (this is without choosing unrestricted leaders option)

The no terrain movement cost, walk over mountain trolls get a bit silly on large maps. They should be made slower so theres time to see them before they attack.

Actually im not a fan of any of the races getting no terrain movement cost, its kinda overpowered.

Sarisin
Feb 06, 2010, 08:09 AM
One thing that is a bit annoying with the mod is how every leader is possible to select when picking a civ in custom game.
Hard to remember what leader goes with what civ with so many of them (this is without choosing unrestricted leaders option)

The no terrain movement cost, walk over mountain trolls get a bit silly on large maps. They should be made slower so theres time to see them before they attack.

Actually im not a fan of any of the races getting no terrain movement cost, its kinda overpowered.

I agree with your comments on the mountain trolls.

Even worse, IMO are the animal units with three movement points - things like Drakes, Raptors, Stags, etc. With the AI cheat of being able to see the whole map at any time it is ridiculous with these units. They can see you from very far away and get to you in a couple of turns no matter where you are. Once you get one on your tail, you are sunk unless you have 4 movement pts. They will follow you allover the map until they kill you.

I just recommend there be a cap of 2 movement pts. on these guys...or, take away the AI cheat of being able to see the whole map while you cannot. ;)

Jheral
Feb 06, 2010, 12:20 PM
I agree with your comments on the mountain trolls.

Even worse, IMO are the animal units with three movement points - things like Drakes, Raptors, Stags, etc. With the AI cheat of being able to see the whole map at any time it is ridiculous with these units. They can see you from very far away and get to you in a couple of turns no matter where you are. Once you get one on your tail, you are sunk unless you have 4 movement pts. They will follow you allover the map until they kill you.

I just recommend there be a cap of 2 movement pts. on these guys...or, take away the AI cheat of being able to see the whole map while you cannot. ;)

For what it's worth, I would second that recommendation; 3 base movement is much too high. I'm not sure there is much that can done about the AI's omniscience, though.

Valkrionn
Feb 06, 2010, 12:28 PM
Without massively slowing the game, there is nothing to be done about the AI being able to 'see' everything; I believe Xienwolf has explained that before. ;)

Fairly sure those animals were toned down, but need to check to be sure.

blackCat
Feb 06, 2010, 02:15 PM
I don't know if I'm in the good place to say that and I know Val that you are not the

creator of FFH2 but I just wanna say that your modmod is amazing :goodjob:

I like the new leaders and this new icy religion.

Thanks for your job.

You're great ;)

Valkrionn
Feb 06, 2010, 02:22 PM
I don't know if I'm in the good place to say that and I know Val that you are not the

creator of FFH2 but I just wanna say that your modmod is amazing :goodjob:

I like the new leaders and this new icy religion.

Thanks for your job.

You're great ;)

It's not just me, you know. :p

There are actually four of us on the team (listed in order of joining, not precedence; Best way to do it. :lol:)


Myself, obviously.
Vermicious Knid
Grey Fox
KillerClowns

Glad you like it, though. :goodjob: Will be a LOT of new material in the next version, we've been working on renovating the old civs... They take new features into account much better now. For example, the Archos are now able to spawn all spider types.... :mischief:

adecoy95
Feb 06, 2010, 08:57 PM
whats the signifigance of trade, i know this is a pretty basic question, but some races, like the malakim, seem to have attributes that depend on trade, but i cant figure out the significance of it, since it dosent seem to give much money.

any advice would be helpful, thanks

Riot_Starter
Feb 06, 2010, 11:45 PM
whats the signifigance of trade, i know this is a pretty basic question, but some races, like the malakim, seem to have attributes that depend on trade, but i cant figure out the significance of it, since it dosent seem to give much money.

any advice would be helpful, thanks

Right now, trading is currently broken. It shows up on the city screen, but when you add up the sources of commerce, trade income isn't being taken into account. If I remember correctly it happened with the switch to decimal trade. Hopefully, it will be fixed in the next patch since a handful of civs depend on trade a good amount.

Valkrionn
Feb 06, 2010, 11:47 PM
Yes, I'll make sure to get it working. If need be I'll remove the decimal trade, but I'd prefer not to. ;)

blackCat
Feb 07, 2010, 08:45 AM
Glad you like it, though. :goodjob: Will be a LOT of new material in the next version, we've been working on renovating the old civs... They take new features into account much better now. For example, the Archos are now able to spawn all spider types.... :mischief:

Hmm it look like interesting.

Where can I find the thread about the future changings ??

By the way, so thanks for you and the 3 othres. :goodjob:

Riot_Starter
Feb 07, 2010, 09:54 AM
Yes, I'll make sure to get it working. If need be I'll remove the decimal trade, but I'd prefer not to. ;)

Sephi has decimal trade in Wildmana. I haven't played it recently, but I assume his is working.

texdionis
Feb 07, 2010, 10:29 AM
I would like to see some big monster like Godzilla or other kaiju.
You know, we have two big ape monsters like Margalard and Gurid (this one very similar to King Kong), but no lizardlike monsters.
The dragons are ok, but Acheron alone in the Animal Packs is not sufficiently reminiscent imho ;)

Valkrionn
Feb 07, 2010, 12:12 PM
Hmm it look like interesting.

Where can I find the thread about the future changings ??

By the way, so thanks for you and the 3 othres. :goodjob:

You can't yet. We have no firm release date, so we aren't putting up lists. I will say that so far, I've done quite a bit for the Doviello, Archos, and Grigori (on whom work is ongoing), planning work on the Dural and a few others, and then we have Vermicious's work on Animals (extensive), my own work I'm planning for barbs as a whole (will be interesting. :p), and GreyFox's awesome work, of which nothing will be mentioned yet. :lol:

Sephi has decimal trade in Wildmana. I haven't played it recently, but I assume his is working.

Yes, I'll be looking at it soon. Was already planning on it. ;)

I would like to see some big monster like Godzilla or other kaiju.
You know, we have two big ape monsters like Margalard and Gurid (this one very similar to King Kong), but no lizardlike monsters.
The dragons are ok, but Acheron alone in the Animal Packs is not sufficiently reminiscent imho ;)

Wait, we don't have lizard-like monsters? Look up the Thunderlizard. :p

Sarisin
Feb 07, 2010, 09:21 PM
For what it's worth, I would second that recommendation; 3 base movement is much too high. I'm not sure there is much that can done about the AI's omniscience, though.

You're right, nothing will be done about that - let's face it, the AI does need all the help it can get. ;)

However, why not just allow the human player to see the map too? Of course that IS possible if you keep opening/closing the World Builder.;)

Fog of War for both or neither, I say. :D

Sorry, it just ticks me off when all the goody huts are gone when I explore and the epic lairs have been searched by AI Scouts who can beeline right for them....:cry:

And another thing...why does the AI ALWAYS spawn barb groups (like mountain trolls) right next to my healing unit. It's bad enough when every barb unit within 100 tiles comes marching over. :crazyeye:

Actually, if you want to have a little fun next game send out a Scout into the Wilderness and see (a) how long it takes to get a crowd on your tail and (b) how big a crowd you can draw and (c) how many turns you can lead this group around before you die. :yup:

Valkrionn
Feb 07, 2010, 09:39 PM
You're right, nothing will be done about that - let's face it, the AI does need all the help it can get. ;)

However, why not just allow the human player to see the map too? Of course that IS possible if you keep opening/closing the World Builder.;)

Fog of War for both or neither, I say. :D

Sorry, it just ticks me off when all the goody huts are gone when I explore and the epic lairs have been searched by AI Scouts who can beeline right for them....:cry:

And another thing...why does the AI ALWAYS spawn barb groups (like mountain trolls) right next to my healing unit. It's bad enough when every barb unit within 100 tiles comes marching over. :crazyeye:

Actually, if you want to have a little fun next game send out a Scout into the Wilderness and see (a) how long it takes to get a crowd on your tail and (b) how big a crowd you can draw and (c) how many turns you can lead this group around before you die. :yup:

On the fog of war; Keep in mind the AI only really considers plots immediately around it. So it may be able to see the Goody Hut a bit earlier (5 plots away instead of 2), but it's not too much different. Of course, pulling values out of the air here; Not sure on specifics as I haven't looked at it.

With the barbgroups - It is ENTIRELY random. Trust me, I've dug deep into that code; Same basic code that I had to edit for the appearanceprob system used for animals.

Sarisin
Feb 08, 2010, 07:31 AM
On the fog of war; Keep in mind the AI only really considers plots immediately around it. So it may be able to see the Goody Hut a bit earlier (5 plots away instead of 2), but it's not too much different. Of course, pulling values out of the air here; Not sure on specifics as I haven't looked at it.

With the barbgroups - It is ENTIRELY random. Trust me, I've dug deep into that code; Same basic code that I had to edit for the appearanceprob system used for animals.

So how much trouble would it be to level the playing field and allow the human player to see the same as the AI?

I recall xienwolf giving the same explanation as you as to why the AI can do it, but never an answer as to why the human player cannot. Depending on terrain, the human player may only be able to see one tile around his unit. I think being able to see 5 tiles away (regardless of terrain) is significant when it comes to a few of the game features. For the most part, though, the AI is terrible and needs this, I guess.

Still, please consider taking the 3 movement pts away from animals.

I hear what you are saying about random placement of barb groups. However, it just seems like whenever I have a unit out in the wilderness, here come the groups plopping down right next to it. This, with plenty of other wilderness plots available. Maybe it is the combination of barbs 5 (or whatever it is) tiles away and the spawning that makes it seem nasty.

Is the TYPE of barb/group spawned also random? I'm guessing it is, but it just seems like Goblins, Frostlings, or mountain trolls ALWAYS spawn near my Spider and can see it. ;)

Valkrionn
Feb 08, 2010, 08:37 AM
So how much trouble would it be to level the playing field and allow the human player to see the same as the AI?

I recall xienwolf giving the same explanation as you as to why the AI can do it, but never an answer as to why the human player cannot. Depending on terrain, the human player may only be able to see one tile around his unit. I think being able to see 5 tiles away (regardless of terrain) is significant when it comes to a few of the game features. For the most part, though, the AI is terrible and needs this, I guess.

Still, please consider taking the 3 movement pts away from animals.

I hear what you are saying about random placement of barb groups. However, it just seems like whenever I have a unit out in the wilderness, here come the groups plopping down right next to it. This, with plenty of other wilderness plots available. Maybe it is the combination of barbs 5 (or whatever it is) tiles away and the spawning that makes it seem nasty.

Is the TYPE of barb/group spawned also random? I'm guessing it is, but it just seems like Goblins, Frostlings, or mountain trolls ALWAYS spawn near my Spider and can see it. ;)

The plot chosen for barbs to spawn on is random (Amount of plots chosen is not, depends on the number of barbs in the area; But the actual plot is). Once the plot is chosen, the game checks for whichever unit is allowed to spawn there, gives them a random weighting, and at the end of the list of barb units spawns the unit with the highest weighting. I believe the actual number spawned is random, but that system isn't used for animals so I'm not sure.

On Move3 animals, just checked through unitinfos... New version has 1 move 4 (bunyip, ocean creature; Needs it as boats move faster), and 2 types of move3 creatures, the Griffin line and the Stag line. Think I'll remove it from the Stags, Griffins will keep it.

Trust me when I say that the barb experience for the next version will be ENTIRELY different. Came up with a way to add a true 'wildlands' feature... Barbs will inhibit exploration and expansion, but won't be killing off civs. No, I won't be going into detail. :lol:

jeffr23
Feb 08, 2010, 10:05 AM
Hello there; another new-ish user of this mod checking in. I'm about 200 turns into my first 'real' game (having finally decided to let myself WB-zap game-ender barbs in the first few dozen turns), playing the Austrin, and had a couple of notes/questions.

1. How exactly does the 'can train up to' mechanic work? [Really, it ought to have an entry in the RiFE concepts section of the Civilopedia. I've looked around here and can't determine which parent mod it came from and look at the development threads to find out what's going on. Particularly, does it split the exp between each eligible unit or give a fixed amount to each one?]

2. It certainly looks like multiple training building for the same category don't make units gain exp any faster, in which case the Hunter's Hall is completely useless for the Austrin...shouldn't it be either disallowed or replaced with something that does something useful?

Valkrionn
Feb 08, 2010, 11:13 AM
Hello there; another new-ish user of this mod checking in. I'm about 200 turns into my first 'real' game (having finally decided to let myself WB-zap game-ender barbs in the first few dozen turns), playing the Austrin, and had a couple of notes/questions.

1. How exactly does the 'can train up to' mechanic work? [Really, it ought to have an entry in the RiFE concepts section of the Civilopedia. I've looked around here and can't determine which parent mod it came from and look at the development threads to find out what's going on. Particularly, does it split the exp between each eligible unit or give a fixed amount to each one?]

2. It certainly looks like multiple training building for the same category don't make units gain exp any faster, in which case the Hunter's Hall is completely useless for the Austrin...shouldn't it be either disallowed or replaced with something that does something useful?



I'm honestly not sure on the specific formula myself (Developed by FF; RifE, at root, is an FF mod, not an FfH mod), but buildings generally have both a Rate, and a Cap. So 'Can train X per turn, to Y xp' (Not sure on the actual description, that should be close). Any eligible unit will receive that xp each turn, no matter how many are stationed there; It's not split in any way. Since the xp gained does not scale based on how much xp the unit has, levels come slower and slower as you go.
That depends. Some buildings will have a higher cap, while others have a higher rate... I can't remember at the moment if they stack, or if it uses the highest available, however.

odalrick
Feb 08, 2010, 11:03 PM
Since the xp gained does not scale based on how much xp the unit has, levels come slower and slower as you go.

Actually the training does scale base on the current xp. As you get more xp it's slower. Without a cap, a unit can get to level 4 in reasonable time, level 5 takes a long time and level 6 and higher is unreachable. Not actually unreachable, but when you get only .01 xp per turn, going from 17 to 26 xp takes 900 turns.

The rate enhancements could help, but since there is such a huge difference between the low and high level base rates nothing in the game has a high enough rate bonus to make a difference.

I suggest using the FlatXP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=343886) module by Riot_Starter module, it is excellent.

Calavente
Feb 09, 2010, 03:24 AM
question about...
"swamps" !!!
It is surely not a bug but it's bothering me !

those are destroying the city I captured from the cualli.
the jungle/marsh reversed back to forest, but the swamps stayed.
I went in WB and could not find how to add some swamps nor how to remove them.
The only solution I found to remove the swamps through WB is : create ocean, rebuild the tile as before.

Any explanations /ideas ?

GIR
Feb 09, 2010, 04:40 AM
swamps are improvements like farms, mines, tower of eyes... but they cant be destroyed like unique features/improvements.

Calavente
Feb 09, 2010, 05:26 AM
so I can come to those conclusions :
- A land with swamps is forever ruined ?
- I can remove a swamp in WB with the improvement toolbox ?
is that right ?

thks GIR.

Valkrionn
Feb 09, 2010, 06:33 AM
I believe they can be scorched away? May have to be a lizard to do that though.

Calavente
Feb 09, 2010, 06:45 AM
ok, I'll try that... when the amurites' worldspell will cease to be bothersome :D

twinkle
Feb 09, 2010, 07:40 AM
i find enemy civs are dying fast to barbarians and animals. too fast. I like a game to last longer than 100 turns, so i usually have to boost my enemies in WorldBuilder. i give them bonuses and then give them walls and a few archers. Anything less and enemy civs die before the game gets going. I'm playing tiny maps, quick games on only warlord mode. Maybe i need to up the difficulty? would that make them heartier?

Valkrionn
Feb 09, 2010, 07:53 AM
i find enemy civs are dying fast to barbarians and animals. too fast. I like a game to last longer than 100 turns, so i usually have to boost my enemies in WorldBuilder. i give them bonuses and then give them walls and a few archers. Anything less and enemy civs die before the game gets going. I'm playing tiny maps, quick games on only warlord mode. Maybe i need to up the difficulty? would that make them heartier?

Upping the difficulty would get them better boosts against barbs and animals, yes.

Next version will have a redesigned system.... Barbs will inhibit exploration and expansion, but won't be much of a threat to civs until mid-late game.

subanark
Feb 09, 2010, 02:26 PM
I think the morphing terrain for certain civs is currently too powerful. It takes much of the choice of finding the right place to settle down with. I think a simple solution is to limit how much terrain can change based on the controlling civ with technologies/building that increase this. Turning a desert into a frozen wasteland should be very difficult.

Weapons choices -
Instead of simply automatically getting a weapon when your unit visits a city, you should get a choice of which one to pick, with some being good against certain types of opponents. E.g. silver weapons might give a bonus against units with feral promotion (making it a bit more general than just werewolves). Fancy weapons (from gems) could boost xp gains (a good looking weapon instills pride in its user). Obsidian could give magic resistance.

leikk
Feb 09, 2010, 04:20 PM
Choice of weapons might be a pretty awesome addition, if it weren't so hard to balance. I mean a silver weapon would be entirely useless against bronze and iron weapons, not to mention fairly heavy. A gem encrusted weapon would probably be enpar with with other weapons with an added XP bonus. There really doesn't need to be a whole lot of bonus XP, it's pretty easy to reach level 15 without too much hassle...

Vainglory
Feb 09, 2010, 07:51 PM
I have a suggesstion for a new Clan of Embers leader: Neer.

Neer is an emergent male leader with the traits spiritual and defender (and barbarian). He is chaotic neutral and much less aggressive than the other Clan leaders.


Here's an overview of Neer's character; I'll write a real pedia entry if you use him.

Neer is is a seer; he can see the future as well as other locations in the present. Most orcs with such divine capabilities are quickly forced into the service of Bhall. Neer, however, was raised in a minor clan, and therefore his abilities remained unoticed by Bhall's clergy.
Neer's visions are almost always of a shining angelic woman, imprisoned in a circle of lights. This woman is Brigit, archangel of fire. Brigit was, via her own mystical abilities, was able to speak to Neer in his visions; with her advice he rose to power in his Clan, and eventually united many orcs, goblins, and other beasts under his banner. Neer's confederacy is much more peaceful and tolerant than other orcish tribes, though they are still competent warriors and explorers.
Neer's ultimate goal in uniting his tribe is to free Brigit, his mistress. He and she hope that her freedom will cause Bhall to redeem herself, or perhaps even cause Brigit to ascend.

This picture could be used if you crop out the dwarf/humans: http://hedge-maze.deviantart.com/art/Prophet-s-Altar-107558106

Valkrionn
Feb 09, 2010, 08:38 PM
I like the leader idea, but that image doesn't really fit the style of the others... How about one of these?

http://images.epilogue.net/users/santi/Volkek_Oshra_Orc.jpg

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4e/20071112_drfe_1full.jpg

jeffr23
Feb 10, 2010, 01:12 PM
Okay, and I see that the Hunter's Hall is needed for the Master Outfitter anyhow.

A few more notes:

I wasn't aware that ErebusContinent did a "new world" thing, but (default settings all around), it looks like all of the players are one one continent and there's another empty one sitting to my southeast. I guess that could be a freakish coincidence, or there could be someone in the interior of the continent still uncontacted, though. I only know of the coasts, from having traded maps with Lanun. [Even if the Lanun AI can't manage to colonize other islands, shouldn't they at least be a lot more reluctant to give away their maps than non-naval AIs?]. I expect I'll be conquering the place with pegasus-riding Trackers fairly soon...

The Scions have been eliminated, except that they still own a fortress and can be contacted (and are naturally mighty easy to extort...should civs stay around forever in this kind of hopeless condition?

I've been Scorching some of the Tundra in my north, and it's been turning into grassland. The in-game description seems to indicate that it should be turning into plains, instead.

Valkrionn
Feb 10, 2010, 01:55 PM
One ErebusContinent - Freak coincidence. It's actually meant to be just one continent, but sea levels occasionally give you two. Or you can get a large island.

Will add code to kill off fort commanders (and remove their culture) when a civ is defeated.

Will look at Scorch.

Mailbox
Feb 10, 2010, 04:56 PM
Trait Requirements


The Minor trait allows you to gain new traits as you play. The majority of these will also remove Minor, meaning you can generally only grab one. The exceptions are Ingenuity and Magic Defense. In addition, several traits will have a small chance to gain an additional trait. For example, Arcane gives you a 3-5% chance to gain Summoner. All criteria are listed below.


Aggressive
Bronze Working - 3%
Iron Working - 5%
Kill Another Civ - 100%

Arcane
Knowledge of the Ether - 3% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Summoner
Sorcery - 50% - if gained 5% chance to also gain Summoner
Build Arcane Libralus - 100%

Creative
Festivals - 3%
Drama - 20%

Expansive
Sanitation - 10% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Ingenuity
Medicine - 20%
Upon Reaching 8 Cities - 20%

Financial
Trade - 10%
Currency - 20% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Organized
Mathematics - 50% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Philosophical

Industrious
Construction - 3% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Expansive
Smelting - 10% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Aggressive
Engineering - 20% - if gained 5% chance to also gain Expansive

Ingenuity
Start a Golden Age - 50%

Magic Defense
Build 2nd Altar of Luonnotar - 100%

Organized
Code of Laws - 3% - if gained, 5% to also gain Financial
Military Strategy - 20% - if gained, 5% to also gain Aggressive
Build Forbidden Palace - 100%

Philosophical
Writing - 3% - if gained 5% to also gain Creative
Philosophical - 50% - if gained, 5% to also gain Creative
Each Great Person Born - 10%

Raiders
Pillage Improvement - 5%
Raze City - 10%

Spiritual
Priesthood - 3%
Religious Law - 10%
Fanatacism - 20%
Found a Religion - 50%

The team might want to copy and paste this information into the civilopedia under a Minor Leaders section. It's not hard to find using the search feature but it would be even more handy in game.

Valkrionn
Feb 10, 2010, 04:58 PM
The team might want to copy and paste this information into the civilopedia under a Minor Leaders section. It's not hard to find using the search feature but it would be even more handy in game.

I'm planning on it, though that exact information will be outdated next version. :p

blade117
Feb 11, 2010, 05:55 AM
And how great that shall be...

25Hour
Feb 12, 2010, 02:53 AM
Hey, are new Emergent leader traits still being accepted? I've been thinking that Furia the Mad's Civilopedia entry deserves more than just a standard trait, so I figured I'd see what I could come up with.

The one I modded into my own game is called Psychotic, and it enables a national wonder called Furia's Diary. It's more or less a personal Necronomicon (getting gold based on OO spread) that gives Mind mana in place of Water mana and raises the AC by 5 (also not requiring a Holy City/Great Prophet to build.) This makes her much more dependent on religion spread than most leaders, which seems like it could be interesting, forcing her to stay on good terms with others so as to maximize her income.

The trait also gives +2 happiness from Asylums.

It seems like the trait would be strong, but only in the late game when she's got Mind Stapling, which means it's probably not too overpowering. Probably a bit weaker than Financial. Thoughts?

Furia's Diary Pedia Text

This diary follows Furia's journey through the dark corridors of her psyche, and contains detailed records of the hideous truths found lurking within-- among them that her pain is made less intolerable by the madness of others.

Thus, once each year, she reads aloud from her diary to a standing-room-only crowd; and for weeks the streets would throng with beings of all sizes, free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. And once in a while, a particular quote or passage catches on in the population, infecting even the zeitgeists of other nations. It flutters through the ranks of high society, sparks debate amongst wizened sages, and in the end, inevitably leads yet more people into the clutches of the ancient and unknowable Overlords.


Code for the diary BuildingInfo and the trait, plus text keys:

<BuildingInfo> <!-- Furia's Diary -->
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_WONDER1</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_FURIAS_DIARY</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_FURIAS_DIARY</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_FURIAS_DIARY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_RELIGION</Advisor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_THE_NECRONOMICON</ArtDefineTag>
<PrereqTech>TECH_MIND_STAPLING</PrereqTech>
<bTeamShare>1</bTeamShare>
<GlobalReligionCommerce>RELIGION_OCTOPUS_OVERLORDS</GlobalReligionCommerce>
<FreeBonus>BONUS_MANA_MIND</FreeBonus>
<iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses>
<iGreatPeopleRateChange>2</iGreatPeopleRateChange>
<iCost>100</iCost>
<iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
<iAsset>8</iAsset>
<fVisibilityPriority>1</fVisibilityPriority>
<ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>4</iCommerce>
</ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>1000</iCommerce>
</CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<ReligionChanges>
<ReligionChange>
<ReligionType>RELIGION_OCTOPUS_OVERLORDS</ReligionType>
<iReligionChange>1</iReligionChange>
</ReligionChange>
</ReligionChanges>
<SpecialistCounts>
<SpecialistCount>
<SpecialistType>SPECIALIST_SCIENTIST</SpecialistType>
<iSpecialistCount>2</iSpecialistCount>
</SpecialistCount>
</SpecialistCounts>
<CommerceChangeOriginalOwners>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
</CommerceChangeOriginalOwners>
<ConstructSound>AS2D_OVERLORDS_DINK</ConstructSound>
<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>
<PrereqTrait>TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC</PrereqTrait>
<iModifyGlobalCounter>5</iModifyGlobalCounter>
</BuildingInfo>


<TraitInfo>
<Type>TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC_SHORT</ShortDescription>
<Help>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC_HELP</Help>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iMaxAnarchy>-1</iMaxAnarchy>
<iUpkeepModifier>0</iUpkeepModifier>
<iLevelExperienceModifier>0</iLevelExperienceModifier>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier>
<iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>0</iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier>
<bAdaptive>0</bAdaptive>
<bAgnostic>0</bAgnostic>
<bAssimilation>0</bAssimilation>
<bBarbarianAlly>0</bBarbarianAlly>
<bIgnoreFood>0</bIgnoreFood>
<bInsane>0</bInsane>
<bSelectable>1</bSelectable>
<bSprawling>0</bSprawling>
<iFreeXPFromCombat>0</iFreeXPFromCombat>
<iMaxCities>-1</iMaxCities>
<iPillagingGold>0</iPillagingGold>
<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
<iSummonDuration>0</iSummonDuration>
<iUpgradeCostModifier>0</iUpgradeCostModifier>
<ExtraYieldThresholds>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
<iExtraYieldThreshold>0</iExtraYieldThreshold>
</ExtraYieldThresholds>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<CommerceModifiers>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
</CommerceModifiers>
<FreePromotions>
</FreePromotions>
<FreePromotionUnitCombats>
</FreePromotionUnitCombats>
</TraitInfo>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC_SHORT</Tag>
<English>Psy</English>
<French>Psy</French>
<German>Psy</German>
<Italian>Psy</Italian>
<Spanish>Psy</Spanish>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC_HELP</Tag>
<English>[NEWLINE][ICON_BULLET]This leader can build Furia's Diary with Mind Stapling, providing a constant gold income based on the number of cities following the Octopus Overlords.</English>
<French>Psy</French>
<German>Psy</German>
<Italian>Psy</Italian>
<Spanish>Psy</Spanish>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_FURIAS_DIARY_PEDIA</Tag>
<English>This diary follows Furia's journey through the dark corridors of her psyche, and contains detailed records of the hideous truths found lurking within-- among them that her pain is made less intolerable by the madness of others.[PARAGRAPH:2]Thus, once each year, she reads aloud from her diary to a standing-room-only crowd; and for weeks the streets would throng with beings of all sizes, who become free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. And once in a while, a choice quote or passage catches on in the population, infecting even the zeitgeists of other nations. It flutters through the ranks of high society, sparking debate amongst wizened sages, and in the end, inevitably leads yet more people into the clutches of the ancient and unknowable Overlords.</English>
<French>Psy</French>
<German>Psy</German>
<Italian>Psy</Italian>
<Spanish>Psy</Spanish>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_PSYCHOTIC</Tag>
<English>Psychotic</English>
<French>Psychotic</French>
<German>Psychotic</German>
<Italian>Psychotic</Italian>
<Spanish>Psychotic</Spanish>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_FURIAS_DIARY</Tag>
<English>Furia's Diary</English>
<French>Furia's Diary</French>
<German>Furia's Diary</German>
<Italian>Furia's Diary</Italian>
<Spanish>Furia's Diary</Spanish>
</TEXT>

twinkle
Feb 12, 2010, 12:51 PM
hi there. i have an observation about the agnostic civs. I haven't played all of them yet, but i notice that some have various religions grayed out, (or redded-out) on the tech tree. And that makes sense to me. They shouldn't be able to research those techs and/or build the corresponding units.

But some civs can research those techs... it doesn't make sense to me.

The Mechanos for example, while not "agnostic" do have a trait which basically sets them up to be monotheistic with the Ordo Mechawhatsis "religion". Ok, that's fine. They have one faith that is tailored to them. yet... we could still research any of the other religions... potentially even founding them. seems wrong to me. Furthermore, while playing the Mechanos last night, I noticed that I founded the Ordo Machncheese, and then later in the game, the Ordo Macdonalds was still available to research in the tech tree. so i researched it again. spent the time researching it, but it changed nothing. I already had the Ordo... (prolly just a bug)

overall, I guess what i'm saying here is that some civs ought to have less options based on their playstyle/description. i mean, if any civ could essentially be any other civ, why have distinctions? (that's a gross exaggeration, but i'm sure you know what i mean)

Valkrionn
Feb 12, 2010, 01:37 PM
hi there. i have an observation about the agnostic civs. I haven't played all of them yet, but i notice that some have various religions grayed out, (or redded-out) on the tech tree. And that makes sense to me. They shouldn't be able to research those techs and/or build the corresponding units.

But some civs can research those techs... it doesn't make sense to me.

The Mechanos for example, while not "agnostic" do have a trait which basically sets them up to be monotheistic with the Ordo Mechawhatsis "religion". Ok, that's fine. They have one faith that is tailored to them. yet... we could still research any of the other religions... potentially even founding them. seems wrong to me. Furthermore, while playing the Mechanos last night, I noticed that I founded the Ordo Machncheese, and then later in the game, the Ordo Macdonalds was still available to research in the tech tree. so i researched it again. spent the time researching it, but it changed nothing. I already had the Ordo... (prolly just a bug)

overall, I guess what i'm saying here is that some civs ought to have less options based on their playstyle/description. i mean, if any civ could essentially be any other civ, why have distinctions? (that's a gross exaggeration, but i'm sure you know what i mean)

The tech you could research that could found Machinarum is actually essential; Without it, it'll be founded by someone in the first few turns if the Mechanos aren't in the game.

In any case, let me assure you that Machinarum is gone in the next version. Exactly how that occurs I'll keep private for now. ;)

JonQ
Feb 12, 2010, 05:25 PM
is it intended that scorch is able to turn jungle into forrests, the water 1 spell desert into plains, grassland, wetland?

This was playing as the ljosalfar, kinda makes getting nature III a waste of time.

sylvain5477
Feb 13, 2010, 11:29 AM
Would someone know from a promotion ID (int) how to get the promotion description in python ?

Valkrionn
Feb 13, 2010, 11:39 AM
GC.getInfoTypeForString(PROMOTION).getDescription?

sylvain5477
Feb 13, 2010, 01:23 PM
I used :
gc.getPromotionInfo(effectList[i]).getDescription()

but I get strange result.
I thought getInfoTypeForString returned an int ?

Valkrionn
Feb 13, 2010, 01:50 PM
I meant getPromotionInfo, I wasn't paying much attention. :lol:

I'm going to assume that you've already ran getInfoTypeForString on i? Has to be ran before you can use getPromotionInfo.

sylvain5477
Feb 13, 2010, 03:38 PM
yes I did.
Actually I now see that's it's working but every concerned promos share the same description (copy/paste mistake) :)

Thanks anyway !

Milaga
Feb 13, 2010, 04:44 PM
is it intended that scorch is able to turn jungle into forrests, the water 1 spell desert into plains, grassland, wetland?

This was playing as the ljosalfar, kinda makes getting nature III a waste of time.

I think this was intended. But you are right, Nature III is much less useful with these terraforming spells. Especially since it's harder to use. It terraforms nine squares instead of one, but you can't cast it on grassland. It was funny in a tragic sort of way when I discovered this by turning four of my flood plains into just plain plains. By "vitalizing" the terrain my people were starving to death.

Maybe Nature III should turn a forest into a new forest and spawn a treant. Or an ancient forest into a forest and spawn a super-treant. You probably should only be able to create super-treants in your own borders so you can't use this to pillage features.

You can turn hills into wetlands too, by the way, which gives them a 50% defense modifier (25% for hills, 25% for wetlands) without trees to get in the way of your archers or leave you vulnerable to woodsman promotions and pesky treants. This probably should be changed.

JonQ
Feb 13, 2010, 06:16 PM
I like the idea about spawning treants, in base FFH Yvain and druids already have that spell I think, could be tied to nature 3 instead.
Perhaps make it spawn as many treants as the type of forest the tile has, 1 in new forest, 2 in forest 3 in ancient, leaving a unforrested tile.

Perhaps just druids and Yvain can get all the trees in a tile to wake up (within borders for balance) other nature III just wake up enough to reduce the forrest one lvl.

Sarisin
Feb 13, 2010, 08:10 PM
Using Scorch on a tile with an Ancient Forest guarantees you will get a nasty Treant. I think this used to be a chance, but it is 200% now.

Also, I've seen an occasional Animal spawn (ex. Wolf) or even a Satyr when using Scorch on other terrain tiles with no Ancient Forest. It has a low probability of happening though.

Valkrionn
Feb 13, 2010, 08:31 PM
Using Scorch on a tile with an Ancient Forest guarantees you will get a nasty Treant. I think this used to be a chance, but it is 200% now.

Also, I've seen an occasional Animal spawn (ex. Wolf) or even a Satyr when using Scorch on other terrain tiles with no Ancient Forest. It has a low probability of happening though.

Scorching a forest/jungle/whatever has a chance to spawn a Defender; Forest has a low chance to spawn animals (Wolfs to Satyrs), Jungles have a low chance to spawn barbs (Lizardmen and Goblins), Ancient Forest is guaranteed to spawn a Treant, and Burnt Forest has a good chance to spawn Mistforms.

Milaga
Feb 13, 2010, 11:05 PM
Burnt Forest has a good chance to spawn Mistforms.

Oh man, this brings back some bad memories of testing the D'Tesh. And by bad I mean fun :).

odalrick
Feb 14, 2010, 12:40 AM
I think this was intended. But you are right, Nature III is much less useful with these terraforming spells. Especially since it's harder to use. It terraforms nine squares instead of one, but you can't cast it on grassland. It was funny in a tragic sort of way when I discovered this by turning four of my flood plains into just plain plains. By "vitalizing" the terrain my people were starving to death.


Get Spell Extension I & II and Vitalize will hit an area the size of a kuoriate city. So it can still be useful to terraform new conquests (especially Illian lands) quickly and micromanagement free. Also, it can be cast on Grasslands, sort of. Just cast Drought once.

That said, it hasn't been upgraded lately to work with the terraforming upgrades. It should probably changed to require Sun I, Water I and Channeling II to make it a mage level spell that combines the two earlier in an easier to use package. Maybe drop the range by 1 as well.

Sarisin
Feb 14, 2010, 08:08 AM
I think I read somewhere a complaint about the Grigori being a weak civ to play. It's been awhile since I played them (I let the computer randomly select who I will play), but I drew them in my current game.

I got one of the minor leaders and was surprised to see he had only one trait - Financial. He had Agnostic, too, of course, but IMO that is just a negative that does not contribute much.

I think this is the only leader I have played with one trait. I kept waiting to somehow pick up another trait, but nothing. Is this correct? Only the Financial trait?

I have been getting Adventurers rather quickly - in fact, too quickly as I don't have enough Gold to upgrade them to regular units. I have 5 before Turn 175. Maybe that makes up for the lack of another trait?

Milaga
Feb 14, 2010, 10:12 AM
I haven't played the Grigori yet to see the changes RiFE makes, but it sounded like they will get more adventurers in general. I think that's a civ change and has nothing to do with the leader.

The leader you have is a "Minor Leader." They usually start off with less traits, but they have a chance of being offered a new trait depending on what choices they make. For example, if you found a religion you have a chance of being offered the Spiritual trait, destroying a civ might grant you Aggressive and researching Drama would offer you Creative. If you search on the forums there is a list of everything, but this really needs to go into the Erebupedia as a "Fall From Heaven Concept."

I meant to ask, some leaders are listed as Minor and others as Emergent. What is the difference?

shoggi
Feb 14, 2010, 10:30 AM
Minors are just additional normal leaders that are not the standard ones that are introduced by FFH or Fall Further.
Emergent Leaders are the ones that gain traits.
But that will change next version anyway.
I'm not allowed to say more. :P

Ornedan
Feb 14, 2010, 11:47 AM
Because I got annoyed at the buildings list in city screen not being in alphabetical order, it now is. Attachment is a patch file (unified diff format) with the altered code.
I also cleaned it up a bit while at it - mainly use of the += operator: "foo += expression" instead of "bar = expression; foo = foo + bar".

Milaga
Feb 14, 2010, 12:26 PM
I just played four games this morning as the Elohim. I lost every one in under 60 turns.

The first game I refused to cast sanctuary to protect myself against barbarians. They of course squashed me on turn 20ish.

The second game I was going to cast sanctuary but didn't realize that there were two minotaurs (instead of one) and a giant attacking my city. All three warriors died and my city was captured by Bhall on turn 26. Elohim don't seem to have any penalties on defense, in fact they get +10% in their homeland, but still I don't think I won a single combat in the first two games.

The third game I cast Sanctuary when I got rushed early. As soon as the spell dropped I was gang rushed, but the giants decided to pillage all of my towns. I repelled the first wave, but I was down to a warrior and a scout and I saw another horde coming so I conceded.

The fourth game I cast Sanctuary early again to save myself. Turn 55 Sanctuary came down and I had eight warriors defending the city. Auric Ulvin casts Samhain, Hafgan the Butcher casts For the Horde and immediately DoWs me. In four turns my city falls under the might of Clan cyklops and frostling wolf riders.

They aren't viable with the overpowered barbarians and animals because with their pacifism they aren't really able to strike back to kill a weakened attacker. But I still don't understand why I was getting beaten so badly. Is defender bugged somehow? I really think I was losing more combats than I should have. Frostling wolf riders were crossing a river to attack my city and were still winning every combat. Perhaps it was just an unlucky morning for me.

I wish I could offer more feedback on them but I've yet to make it to Orthus. :/

Valkrionn
Feb 14, 2010, 01:05 PM
I think I read somewhere a complaint about the Grigori being a weak civ to play. It's been awhile since I played them (I let the computer randomly select who I will play), but I drew them in my current game.

I got one of the minor leaders and was surprised to see he had only one trait - Financial. He had Agnostic, too, of course, but IMO that is just a negative that does not contribute much.

I think this is the only leader I have played with one trait. I kept waiting to somehow pick up another trait, but nothing. Is this correct? Only the Financial trait?

I have been getting Adventurers rather quickly - in fact, too quickly as I don't have enough Gold to upgrade them to regular units. I have 5 before Turn 175. Maybe that makes up for the lack of another trait?

Lots of new stuff coming for the Grigori. ;)

As for the leader... That's Goodreau. He'll have an entirely different trait next version, the Financial was really just a placeholder.

I haven't played the Grigori yet to see the changes RifE makes, but it sounded like they will get more adventurers in general. I think that's a civ change and has nothing to do with the leader.

The leader you have is a "Minor Leader." They usually start off with less traits, but they have a chance of being offered a new trait depending on what choices they make. For example, if you found a religion you have a chance of being offered the Spiritual trait, destroying a civ might grant you Aggressive and researching Drama would offer you Creative. If you search on the forums there is a list of everything, but this really needs to go into the Erebupedia as a "Fall From Heaven Concept."

I meant to ask, some leaders are listed as Minor and others as Emergent. What is the difference?

Well, that's debatable. What I added is a new counter variable on the player, which is incremented each turn (The variable is in the DLL, but all use of it is python currently) based on the buildings/civics/specialists (next version, at least) you have. So I moved it from the same
process as GP, to a parallel process. Only real major difference is that they'll only spawn in your capital, which is why we're adding more ways to get points; Before you could have them spawning from all cities. It also means that they can't 'pollute' their Adventurer points now, and can pursue standard GPs; but the next version, they'll have a specialist they really want to use which does not provide GP points, and instead adds to the Adventurer pool. ;)

Hopefully that made sense. ;)

As for the Minor Leader description... That's a valid description, but only of Emergent leaders. Minors don't actually gain traits, and are supposed to have 2 traits but some were neglected. In any case, that entire system will be changed. :p

Minors are just additional normal leaders that are not the standard ones that are introduced by FFH or Fall Further.
Emergent Leaders are the ones that gain traits.
But that will change next version anyway.
I'm not allowed to say more. :P

No, no you are not. :p

Because I got annoyed at the buildings list in city screen not being in alphabetical order, it now is. Attachment is a patch file (unified diff format) with the altered code.
I also cleaned it up a bit while at it - mainly use of the += operator: "foo += expression" instead of "bar = expression; foo = foo + bar".

I will definitely take a look at this; Buildings haven't changed a whole lot so far (think maybe 3 or 4 is it) so it should be an easy merge. I have just one question: Some of the buildings NEED to be out of alphabetical order, so they appear in the city screen below their 'parent' building, nicely indented (done in the textkey). What did you do with them? Talking about the Alcinus Keep addons and the Archos Palace addons, may be more.

I just played four games this morning as the Elohim. I lost every one in under 60 turns.

The first game I refused to cast sanctuary to protect myself against barbarians. They of course squashed me on turn 20ish.

The second game I was going to cast sanctuary but didn't realize that there were two minotaurs (instead of one) and a giant attacking my city. All three warriors died and my city was captured by Bhall on turn 26. Elohim don't seem to have any penalties on defense, in fact they get +10% in their homeland, but still I don't think I won a single combat in the first two games.

The third game I cast Sanctuary when I got rushed early. As soon as the spell dropped I was gang rushed, but the giants decided to pillage all of my towns. I repelled the first wave, but I was down to a warrior and a scout and I saw another horde coming so I conceded.

The fourth game I cast Sanctuary early again to save myself. Turn 55 Sanctuary came down and I had eight warriors defending the city. Auric Ulvin casts Samhain, Hafgan the Butcher casts For the Horde and immediately DoWs me. In four turns my city falls under the might of Clan cyklops and frostling wolf riders.

They aren't viable with the overpowered barbarians and animals because with their pacifism they aren't really able to strike back to kill a weakened attacker. But I still don't understand why I was getting beaten so badly. Is defender bugged somehow? I really think I was losing more combats than I should have. Frostling wolf riders were crossing a river to attack my city and were still winning every combat. Perhaps it was just an unlucky morning for me.

I wish I could offer more feedback on them but I've yet to make it to Orthus. :/

Yeah, Elohim may be a bit weak at the moment. They'll be far better off with the new barb system, though they'll be less able to explore than others. Check the last few posts of the Download thread if you didn't read my description. ;)

Sarisin
Feb 14, 2010, 02:47 PM
Lots of new stuff coming for the Grigori. ;)

As for the leader... That's Goodreau. He'll have an entirely different trait next version, the Financial was really just a placeholder.

Yeah, Elohim may be a bit weak at the moment. They'll be far better off with the new barb system, though they'll be less able to explore than others. Check the last few posts of the Download thread if you didn't read my description. ;)

Soooo, the computer randomly selected a leader for me with only one trait. Grrrr. Guess I'll have to wait for the next version to see how Goodreau is. But, again, no complaints with the number of Adventurers I'm getting, and IMO, the Grigori have one of the best World Spells around.

On the Elohim, I have been following your advice and not attacking when I am exploring as the units can defend better. The only problem there is that you will never capture an Elephant/Mammoth defending. :p

However, I'm not liking your reference to them not being able to explore as well as others in the next version. Unless something has changed, IMO exploration is more vital for the Elohim than any other civ. They need to go around and find all those unique features that give them the extra traits. How will they do this if their exploration 'skills' are nerfed even further? :confused:

Valkrionn
Feb 14, 2010, 03:04 PM
Soooo, the computer randomly selected a leader for me with only one trait. Grrrr. Guess I'll have to wait for the next version to see how Goodreau is. But, again, no complaints with the number of Adventurers I'm getting, and IMO, the Grigori have one of the best World Spells around.

On the Elohim, I have been following your advice and not attacking when I am exploring as the units can defend better. The only problem there is that you will never capture an Elephant/Mammoth defending. :p

However, I'm not liking your reference to them not being able to explore as well as others in the next version. Unless something has changed, IMO exploration is more vital for the Elohim than any other civ. They need to go around and find all those unique features that give them the extra traits. How will they do this if their exploration 'skills' are nerfed even further? :confused:

That was just in reference to the new barb setup; Elohim units will be less likely to get through barb territory because they have -1 Attack. If you keep on the defense, though, you'd be just as able to explore as anyone else.

Edit: Back to the Grigori, the worldspell may or may not change. Haven't decided yet... It's main purpose was to allow for late game Adventurers, but it lost that use when Adventurers stopped being GPs.

Ornedan
Feb 14, 2010, 03:30 PM
I will definitely take a look at this; Buildings haven't changed a whole lot so far (think maybe 3 or 4 is it) so it should be an easy merge. I have just one question: Some of the buildings NEED to be out of alphabetical order, so they appear in the city screen below their 'parent' building, nicely indented (done in the textkey). What did you do with them? Talking about the Alcinus Keep addons and the Archos Palace addons, may be more.I wasn't aware of such and I didn't see anything about such in the existing code, so I presume they have so far been implemented just with XML order (or whatever previously determined the order) and leading spaces in the building name? Regardless, it doesn't handle those yet, but all I need for that is a reliable way of detecting them.

Sarisin
Feb 14, 2010, 03:32 PM
That was just in reference to the new barb setup; Elohim units will be less likely to get through barb territory because they have -1 Attack. If you keep on the defense, though, you'd be just as able to explore as anyone else.

Edit: Back to the Grigori, the worldspell may or may not change. Haven't decided yet... It's main purpose was to allow for late game Adventurers, but it lost that use when Adventurers stopped being GPs.

hahaha, so what if the Shrine of Sirona, Odio's Prison, etc. are IN barb territory? Defense again?

The problem I'm finding is when your unit takes damage (either attacking or defending), you can bet before it can heal more barbs/animals will spawn right next to it. Especially bad is when a unit with 2 or 3 movement pts does this.

Anyway, an example in my next post.

Sarisin
Feb 14, 2010, 03:41 PM
I sent my Grigori Scout out into the Wilderness to capture a Bear. He was attacked and damaged by a group of 3 Trolls that spawned one tile away. He survived, but 5 turns to heal.

What you see in the screenshot is what happened in a few turns. That's 23 barbs, etc. zeroing in on my Hunter/Adventurer. Most of those 23 units have an Age of less than 6.

I know you said it is all random how barbs, etc. spawn, but the map is less than half full and here we have more than 20 barbs spawning very close to my wounded unit. Then, there is the matter of barbs being able to see through the fog of war to join in the fray too. :D

Anyway, after I took the shot, I had another 10-15 barbs appear. With 3 movement pts. I sent my Hunter around the Wilderness as much I could and enjoyed the hilarity of this troop of 40 barb units following. :crazyeye:

Maybe it is all random, but I have been able to repeat this 'feat' often. I think if you try it by sending a lone unit out into the wilderness you will see what I am saying.

Valkrionn
Feb 14, 2010, 03:47 PM
I wasn't aware of such and I didn't see anything about such in the existing code, so I presume they have so far been implemented just with XML order (or whatever previously determined the order) and leading spaces in the building name? Regardless, it doesn't handle those yet, but all I need for that is a reliable way of detecting them.

Right, that's exactly how it's done. The only cases I know of are the Alcinus Keep (BUILDINGCLASS_KEEP_MAIN, which must be followed by all BUILDINGCLASS_KEEP_SECONDARY) and the Archos Nest buildings, all of which have the <!-- Must be after Archos Nest in XML --> comment after the name comment. Should add this to the Alcinus buildings as well.

Edit: After checking again, there is one more place; The Dural Colleges. The religion-specific buildings have the <!-- Must be after School of Theology in XML --> comment.

hahaha, so what if the Shrine of Sirona, Odio's Prison, etc. are IN barb territory? Defense again?

The problem I'm finding is when your unit takes damage (either attacking or defending), you can bet before it can heal more barbs/animals will spawn right next to it. Especially bad is when a unit with 2 or 3 movement pts does this.

Anyway, an example in my next post.

Exactly, defense. Elohim are just as able as anyone else when on the defense, they just don't attack as well. Unless in their own territory.

Valkrionn
Feb 14, 2010, 03:49 PM
I sent my Grigori Scout out into the Wilderness to capture a Bear. He was attacked and damaged by a group of 3 Trolls that spawned one tile away. He survived, but 5 turns to heal.

What you see in the screenshot is what happened in a few turns. That's 23 barbs, etc. zeroing in on my Hunter/Adventurer. Most of those 23 units have an Age of less than 6.

I know you said it is all random how barbs, etc. spawn, but the map is less than half full and here we have more than 20 barbs spawning very close to my wounded unit. Then, there is the matter of barbs being able to see through the fog of war to join in the fray too. :D

Anyway, after I took the shot, I had another 10-15 barbs appear. With 3 movement pts. I sent my Hunter around the Wilderness as much I could and enjoyed the hilarity of this troop of 40 barb units following. :crazyeye:

Maybe it is all random, but I have been able to repeat this 'feat' often. I think if you try it by sending a lone unit out into the wilderness you will see what I am saying.

Actually, Orcish barbs (NOT animals) spawn in groups. 5-6 at a time, typically... So that's actually just about 4 spawns, which seems typical.

Ornedan
Feb 14, 2010, 04:44 PM
Right, that's exactly how it's done. The only cases I know of are the Alcinus Keep (BUILDINGCLASS_KEEP_MAIN, which must be followed by all BUILDINGCLASS_KEEP_SECONDARY) and the Archos Nest buildings, all of which have the <!-- Must be after Archos Nest in XML --> comment after the name comment. Should add this to the Alcinus buildings as well.

Edit: After checking again, there is one more place; The Dural Colleges. The religion-specific buildings have the <!-- Must be after School of Theology in XML --> comment.
Altered the code so that it considers any building whose description begins with a whitespace as a "sub-building" and attaches it to the last encountered non-sub-building.
This will not work for the Dural Colleges, as their names do not seem to have the leading whitespace. (It did work properly for Thaumaturge's Keep when I tested my Scions save.)

Sarisin
Feb 14, 2010, 06:06 PM
Actually, Orcish barbs (NOT animals) spawn in groups. 5-6 at a time, typically... So that's actually just about 4 spawns, which seems typical.

The largest group I've seen spawn at one time is 5. Sometimes less. This also includes Frostlings as well as Trolls and the occasional group of Minotaurs and Cyclops. But, you're right, most of the time it is Orcs.

Sarisin
Feb 14, 2010, 06:19 PM
Maybe you can help me understand the following:

My Hunter is on a forest/hill with a 50% bonus for defense. I spot an enemy unit that I can kill. The posted Combat Odds are 99.9%. I decide not to kill the unit...and get killed by it the next turn without moving my unit.

I realize there can be some leeway with defend and attack values, but wouldn't it seem with a 99.9% chance of winning AND a 50% bonus that I should win that fight? This seems to happen more than it should.

Granted the posted odds in the game are wonky at best. There are times I think the game would be better if it just skipped giving you odds for so many aspects of the game - combat, withdrawal/fleeing, resisting magic, getting a certain type of GP, etc.

Over several games just for fun I tracked the GPs I received and compared it with the one the odds said I should have gotten. 15 out of 20 times I did not get the one with the highest % of getting. Sure, there were a few that had close odds, but also many that were 80-90+% vs. 10 or less percent.

Again, you just really have to take the odds given in this game with a grain of salt...or just ignore them completely.;)

Valkrionn
Feb 14, 2010, 06:44 PM
Altered the code so that it considers any building whose description begins with a whitespace as a "sub-building" and attaches it to the last encountered non-sub-building.
This will not work for the Dural Colleges, as their names do not seem to have the leading whitespace. (It did work properly for Thaumaturge's Keep when I tested my Scions save.)

I'll look at it, but from what you said I think it means it adds it to the last building the city gained? That doesn't work for anything but the Thaumaturge's Keep.

I'll honestly likely just keep those buildings out of order; If the mechanic is used more often, then I'll add a tag which sets it as a sub building for whatever building is listed.

The largest group I've seen spawn at one time is 5. Sometimes less. This also includes Frostlings as well as Trolls and the occasional group of Minotaurs and Cyclops. But, you're right, most of the time it is Orcs.

What I meant by Orcish barbs is the 'standard' barb faction; Referred to as Orcs in the code, because the majority of them are. So yes, it includes all the others you listed, just not Demons or Animals.

Maybe you can help me understand the following:

My Hunter is on a forest/hill with a 50% bonus for defense. I spot an enemy unit that I can kill. The posted Combat Odds are 99.9%. I decide not to kill the unit...and get killed by it the next turn without moving my unit.

I realize there can be some leeway with defend and attack values, but wouldn't it seem with a 99.9% chance of winning AND a 50% bonus that I should win that fight? This seems to happen more than it should.

Granted the posted odds in the game are wonky at best. There are times I think the game would be better if it just skipped giving you odds for so many aspects of the game - combat, withdrawal/fleeing, resisting magic, getting a certain type of GP, etc.

Over several games just for fun I tracked the GPs I received and compared it with the one the odds said I should have gotten. 15 out of 20 times I did not get the one with the highest % of getting. Sure, there were a few that had close odds, but also many that were 80-90+% vs. 10 or less percent.

Again, you just really have to take the odds given in this game with a grain of salt...or just ignore them completely.;)

Not sure, but there are any number of things which aren't accounted for very well (and really can't be, because they only affect SOME battles, like First/Defensive Strikes). Like you said, odds need to be taken with a grain of salt.

25Hour
Feb 15, 2010, 01:03 AM
A pet peeve of mine (inherited from base FFH): It seems to me that Bounty Hunter is not a terribly worthwhile promotion, despite its cool flavor and mechanic. +2 gold/combat is peanuts, given that BH almost always has the opportunity cost of a promotion granting +20% strength, which is really quite powerful and very often means the difference between victory and defeat. (Optional thought experiment: How common is it that you would trade 2 gold for an extra 20% strength for a given combat?)

I would suggest that the gold amount per combat be upped to +5 or so, to make the promotion more comparable with Combat promos and such.

Ornedan
Feb 15, 2010, 02:57 AM
I'll look at it, but from what you said I think it means it adds it to the last building the city gained? That doesn't work for anything but the Thaumaturge's Keep.

I'll honestly likely just keep those buildings out of order; If the mechanic is used more often, then I'll add a tag which sets it as a sub building for whatever building is listed.No. All "sub-buildings" are attached to whicher normal building immediately precedes them in building infos XML order. Screenshot of how I have it working now - Keep and Nest.

As I said, the only thing it currently won't work for is the Schools, because they don't have the distinctive leading spaces in their names. Attached is patch for the text XML file to add the spaces.
A tag to explicitly specify sub-building status would certainly be less of an ugly hack way of doing it though :D

Leverkuhn
Feb 15, 2010, 04:01 AM
Two things I'd like to see:

1. An official list of suggested game settings. You could start with simply disclosing what the various mods use when designing/testing. Typical settings for me would be normal game speed, a relatively crowded map (i.e. Erebus Continent small/low sea/11 civs; maps with plenty of room for everybody seem to make it too easy to hammer the AI), flexible difficulty starting at Emperor (will ramp up to deity fairly quickly, but without the possibility of an insane early game invasion), and no animals (just because they're broken this patch; it's not my preference). But there's still a lot of options I haven't tried much, and I may be missing out on a better experience. Certainly, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a mod this big to be optimized for all settings, and it would be useful to know what the mods are designing around.

2. A little rebalancing of the standard traits. One of the things I love about rife is the cool unique traits for the emergent leaders. Work on the vanilla traits, however, has lagged behind. Not only do many lack flavor, being imported from BTS without only minor adjustments, but they're so wildly imbalanced that variety suffers. Even if for example I wanted to play for a cultural victory, I'd be crazy to use a creative leader, which doesn't seem right at all. To me, expansive, organized, and industrious are weak, and arcane and creative absurdly so. And each could be more interesting (-50% building cost effects are pretty bland). In order for the new minor leaders mechanics to really work well, I think this is going to have to be addressed, though it won't necessarily be easy.

twinkle
Feb 15, 2010, 07:26 AM
so um, this was an issue for me in vanilla civ, but has anyone ever figured a way around this? when you're beginning a game and choosing your civ, you have to choose a leader before you can choose your civilization. i always wished the process were reversed. just makes sense to me. i dunno.

1. and a real question: is it gryphons or gryphon flight or what, but there are some units which when they attack, they cause ALL units in the defending stack to move out of their square. there could be 1 gryphon attacking a stack or 10 archers and the result is that ALL archers will leave the plot. when i first encountered this, i was playing as the frozen, so i just figured it was the buggy frozen. but then i encountered the same mechanic while playing the mechanos. it seemed to be the gryphons that were doing it though i need to test it some more to find out.

lemonjelly
Feb 15, 2010, 07:36 AM
so um, this was an issue for me in vanilla civ, but has anyone ever figured a way around this? when you're beginning a game and choosing your civ, you have to choose a leader before you can choose your civilization. i always wished the process were reversed. just makes sense to me. i dunno.

IIRC, this is called in the .exe and can't be changed. Because, I'd like that to be changed as well.

Sarisin
Feb 15, 2010, 08:04 AM
so um, this was an issue for me in vanilla civ, but has anyone ever figured a way around this? when you're beginning a game and choosing your civ, you have to choose a leader before you can choose your civilization. i always wished the process were reversed. just makes sense to me. i dunno.

1. and a real question: is it gryphons or gryphon flight or what, but there are some units which when they attack, they cause ALL units in the defending stack to move out of their square. there could be 1 gryphon attacking a stack or 10 archers and the result is that ALL archers will leave the plot. when i first encountered this, i was playing as the frozen, so i just figured it was the buggy frozen. but then i encountered the same mechanic while playing the mechanos. it seemed to be the gryphons that were doing it though i need to test it some more to find out.

I'm not sure what you are saying in the first. I use the Random leader/civ generator anyway.

On the second, did any of the attacking units have Fear? That could move all the Archers away from the tile. It seems random, though, whether all the units move or some stay behind. I'm not sure if the Gryphons have Fear, but many of the powerful animals and beasts do have that.

Randomness
Feb 15, 2010, 09:57 AM
I've gotten annoyed at the many early AI deaths due to barbs and animals lately. So, I decided to play a game without them. After about 20 turns I realized that the game really needed barbs, so I created several barb cities, raised their pop, gave them some production, and the amount of barbs was managable, but still noticeable. I know this is going to be fixed in the next version, but untill then, this may be a decent way to keep some of the AI alive.

Valkrionn
Feb 15, 2010, 09:57 AM
A pet peeve of mine (inherited from base FFH): It seems to me that Bounty Hunter is not a terribly worthwhile promotion, despite its cool flavor and mechanic. +2 gold/combat is peanuts, given that BH almost always has the opportunity cost of a promotion granting +20% strength, which is really quite powerful and very often means the difference between victory and defeat. (Optional thought experiment: How common is it that you would trade 2 gold for an extra 20% strength for a given combat?)

I would suggest that the gold amount per combat be upped to +5 or so, to make the promotion more comparable with Combat promos and such.

I'll take a look at the promotion... I doubt I'd increase the gold per combat, but how about a postcombat effect that grants a temporary 'Free Upkeep' promotion? Similar to how the Scavenger promotion works for the Doviello.

No. All "sub-buildings" are attached to whicher normal building immediately precedes them in building infos XML order. Screenshot of how I have it working now - Keep and Nest.

As I said, the only thing it currently won't work for is the Schools, because they don't have the distinctive leading spaces in their names. Attached is patch for the text XML file to add the spaces.
A tag to explicitly specify sub-building status would certainly be less of an ugly hack way of doing it though :D

Ah, so you changed the actual python to put them in alphabetical order, rather than xml order? That works then. :goodjob:

Two things I'd like to see:

1. An official list of suggested game settings. You could start with simply disclosing what the various mods use when designing/testing. Typical settings for me would be normal game speed, a relatively crowded map (i.e. Erebus Continent small/low sea/11 civs; maps with plenty of room for everybody seem to make it too easy to hammer the AI), flexible difficulty starting at Emperor (will ramp up to deity fairly quickly, but without the possibility of an insane early game invasion), and no animals (just because they're broken this patch; it's not my preference). But there's still a lot of options I haven't tried much, and I may be missing out on a better experience. Certainly, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a mod this big to be optimized for all settings, and it would be useful to know what the mods are designing around.

2. A little rebalancing of the standard traits. One of the things I love about rife is the cool unique traits for the emergent leaders. Work on the vanilla traits, however, has lagged behind. Not only do many lack flavor, being imported from BTS without only minor adjustments, but they're so wildly imbalanced that variety suffers. Even if for example I wanted to play for a cultural victory, I'd be crazy to use a creative leader, which doesn't seem right at all. To me, expansive, organized, and industrious are weak, and arcane and creative absurdly so. And each could be more interesting (-50% building cost effects are pretty bland). In order for the new minor leaders mechanics to really work well, I think this is going to have to be addressed, though it won't necessarily be easy.

I'll try and answer, but I'm on the laptop, which doesn't have Civ installed; Can't remember specifics. :lol:



My games (when I play to play, not test) are: Erebus Continent (Standard settings, maybe adjust sea level), Normal map, Normal speed, No Tech Brokering, FlavorStart, WildMana/FeralMana/ManaGuardians, Double Bonuses, Double Events, Lock Modified Settings (or whatever it's called; No worldbuilder), All UF's. Can't remember the difficulty name, it's 2 steps below Deity.
This will likely be done... Any suggestions you have, feel free to post. Haven't started it just yet. ;)


so um, this was an issue for me in vanilla civ, but has anyone ever figured a way around this? when you're beginning a game and choosing your civ, you have to choose a leader before you can choose your civilization. i always wished the process were reversed. just makes sense to me. i dunno.

1. and a real question: is it gryphons or gryphon flight or what, but there are some units which when they attack, they cause ALL units in the defending stack to move out of their square. there could be 1 gryphon attacking a stack or 10 archers and the result is that ALL archers will leave the plot. when i first encountered this, i was playing as the frozen, so i just figured it was the buggy frozen. but then i encountered the same mechanic while playing the mechanos. it seemed to be the gryphons that were doing it though i need to test it some more to find out.

I assume you mean when doing a 'Play Now!' game? No, that's in the EXE; Can't be accessed.

As for the other question, Fear. If you're unlucky (Or the unit is much stronger than you), and all your units fail the fear check, they'll all run. Griffons are one of the main animals with Fear.

Sarisin
Feb 15, 2010, 10:16 AM
As for the other question, Fear. If you're unlucky (Or the unit is much stronger than you), and all your units fail the fear check, they'll all run. Griffons are one of the main animals with Fear.

What is the fear check?

Is still the only way to 'defeat' Fear giving your units Courage?

It seems strange how it works. I have a group of identical barb mountain trolls on a tile. My Giant Lizard with Fear attacks and kills one. Sometimes the whole remaining stack will move outside my border (or a tile away if in wilderness), but sometimes one or more will be left behind on the tile. They are the same, and certainly none with Courage.

There is also a unique item you can get from lairs, etc. that allows you to scatter units much like Fear. It does the same as above.

One thing that is a little bizarre is when you have two units both with Fear meet up, for example a Great Spider and Great Lizard. You would think the Fear would cancel out, but it doesn't. :confused:

Valkrionn
Feb 15, 2010, 11:01 AM
What is the fear check?

Is still the only way to 'defeat' Fear giving your units Courage?

It seems strange how it works. I have a group of identical barb mountain trolls on a tile. My Giant Lizard with Fear attacks and kills one. Sometimes the whole remaining stack will move outside my border (or a tile away if in wilderness), but sometimes one or more will be left behind on the tile. They are the same, and certainly none with Courage.

There is also a unique item you can get from lairs, etc. that allows you to scatter units much like Fear. It does the same as above.

One thing that is a little bizarre is when you have two units both with Fear meet up, for example a Great Spider and Great Lizard. You would think the Fear would cancel out, but it doesn't. :confused:

By 'Fear Check' I meant the odds it will affect the unit; The chance the unit will resist, in other words. Believe it's affected by the strength difference between the units as well.

If some units are left, that just means that some units passed it and were unaffected.

Fear doesn't actually have the 'immune to fear' tag... Should add it.

twinkle
Feb 15, 2010, 01:33 PM
i see. so does the fear check run against the entire defending stack? kind of like collateral fear damage?

i can see how it's a good thing, but i'd think it would have diminishing returns for a larger stack. to the point where a huge stack would be nearly un-fear-able. logic being that a lone scout is more likely to get feared by a monster, but what if you have a large, secure army fortified within a city or fort? wouldn't they be less likely to be feared due to... all those factors? i mean, you're an archer in a city. a gryphon approaches and you think, "oh noes, abandon the safe, well-lit city with walls! seek shelter in the exposed, dark, and scary swamp!".

lemonjelly
Feb 15, 2010, 01:34 PM
Is there a Unique Improvement that gives Air Mana?

I can't think of one, and there really should be one.

Obviously, it should have something to do with Air and Tali, but I can't think of any good ideas.

Valkrionn
Feb 15, 2010, 01:46 PM
i see. so does the fear check run against the entire defending stack? kind of like collateral fear damage?

i can see how it's a good thing, but i'd think it would have diminishing returns for a larger stack. to the point where a huge stack would be nearly un-fear-able. logic being that a lone scout is more likely to get feared by a monster, but what if you have a large, secure army fortified within a city or fort? wouldn't they be less likely to be feared due to... all those factors? i mean, you're an archer in a city. a gryphon approaches and you think, "oh noes, abandon the safe, well-lit city with walls! seek shelter in the exposed, dark, and scary swamp!".

It may already, I'm honestly not sure; Haven't checked the formula myself.

Is there a Unique Improvement that gives Air Mana?

I can't think of one, and there really should be one.

Obviously, it should have something to do with Air and Tali, but I can't think of any good ideas.

Not that I can think of. Does Aifon Isle?

lemonjelly
Feb 15, 2010, 01:49 PM
Aifon Isle is water, because the Aifons were the people of Danalin, god of Water :P

Tali is the god of the Hippus and the Austrin and possibly the Lanun. She is playful, and in the story where Mammon falls, she imitates a cloud and annoys him xD

EDIT: 1200th post :D

Valkrionn
Feb 15, 2010, 01:50 PM
Woops, you said Air. I even read Air. Not sure why I switched to Water there. :lol:

lemonjelly
Feb 15, 2010, 01:52 PM
And that even rhymed xD

MagisterCultuum
Feb 15, 2010, 03:39 PM
Aifon Isle is water, because the Aifons were the people of Danalin, god of Water :P

Tali is the god of the Hippus and the Austrin and possibly the Lanun. She is playful, and in the story where Mammon falls, she imitates a cloud and annoys him xD

EDIT: 1200th post :D

Tali is male. Of the 21 deities only Bhall, Ceridwen, Kilmorph, Nantosuelta, and Sirona are female.

Grey Fox
Feb 17, 2010, 08:23 PM
Did the One decide the genders or did they do it themselves? Or did their personalities transform them into the genders?

They were the first thing the One created right?
If he created them with genders, did he mean for them to procreate?

If its the transformation thing, maybe they didn't get genders until they started creating life themselves?

Randomness
Feb 17, 2010, 08:33 PM
From what I understand the genders are in personallity only. I don't think the gods are stuck to one from, thus, could asume either gender. They probably have a favorite form that reflects their personallity, but this is only by choice. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Leverkuhn
Feb 18, 2010, 03:56 AM
This will likely be done... Any suggestions you have, feel free to post. Haven't started it just yet.

Glad to hear that this is on the table. I'll share my attempt at a minimal rework. I think there's a case for a more thoroughgoing reconsideration than the following, but that would clearly take a lot more thought, testing, etc. I as stated, I think the biggest problems are with Arcane, Creative, Organized, Expansive, and Industrious, so I'll consider each in turn.

1. Arcane. One of rife's two joke traits; I don't think anyone will want to dispute that -50% on a building that many arcane players will skip completely for the Catacomb Libralus coupled with a very minor boost to leveling speed of arcane units is terrible. Even if its boost applied only to arcane units, Charismatic would still be much better. Along those lines, I would like to change the potency effect to instead lower the xp needed for promotions. This would have the important consequence of insuring that arcane players still benefit from xp gained through normal combat (especially nice for Amurites). I would also consider giving the mages another free promotion, as spiritual does. Mobility I or Spell Extension I might be reasonable choices.

The Arcane Trait still needs a little more flavor. My suggestion to to allow Arcane leaders to build Academies without a GS, much like Organized leaders can with Command Posts. The obvious prerequisite tech options are Arcane Lore or Strength of Will, but my preference is Guilds: its on an underused part of the tech tree and ensures that there's more to Arcane leaders then beelining up the mage tree. The :hammers: cost should be pretty high to prevent this from being spammed in all cities too easily. It may be desirable to give Academies some Arcane-themed effect if this is adopted. (You could even have Academies grant potency to all Arcane units built in the city; this would make GS more desirable and flavorful for non-Arcane leaders, while Arcane leaders can't complain since they don't have to use a GS).



2. Expansive. With RifE's additions of a new healer specialist and :gp:, extra +:health: resources, and :health: attached to other specialsts, Erebus' citizens have never been healthier. Couple the consequent superfluousness of Expansive's +3:health: along with the fact the the settler bonus doesn't consider food used for production, and you've got a seriously up trait. I propose moving Creative's +2:culture:/city to Expansive (maybe move it down to +1), since its only real function is to pop borders quickly. I would also give +20% (random number; can be changed as balance demands) :food: stored on city growth. The present bonuses can stay.



3. Creative. This is a tough one. There's no denying it's pathetic in its current form (heck, you don't even get half off Theatres), but sensible tweaks are hard to come by. What I'm using right now is +50% :culture:/city, with Theatre and Masquerade Theatre added to the discount list (the flat +2:culture: is with Expansive, as stated above), but this isn't very satisfying. What I'd like is for cultural victory to be removed and for culture instead to provide +:) and economic bonuses that increase with a city's cultural level. Then Creative can have some kind of boost to those bonuses. But this is obviously a sweeping change and may not even be codable. Another possibility is to give Creative leaders some kind of bonus with the new guild system Valk is working on.



4. Organized. In practice it's just a (much) weaker version of financial. Its useless early game, and the savings continue to pale next to financial's boost even very late in the game. The Command Posts would be better if GC's weren't so plentiful. I suggest removing the -50% civic upkeep bonus (but not the command posts), and re-theming the trait to focus on training. Double production of Hunter's Hall, Training Yard, Jousting Tilt, Archery Range (and Siege Workshop? Maybe of the Master's buildings too?!). Training rates and limits (if codable) improved. GCs level up more quickly (and remove them from Charismatic). I get the feeling the training aspect of the game could use some polishing/buffing in general, and this remake fits this project. Maybe work equipment mechanics in somehow: grant reduced prices, or give new units a chance of stating with a random piece of equipment. Possibly rename the trait Martial or Disciplined. As a finishing touch, reduce unit supply costs somehow. The beauty of this is that it turns what would have been a useless trait for the AI into a rather solid one.



5. Industrious. I grant that this trait isn't as obviously broken as the above four, but it still doesn't work for me. With a few exceptions (nerf Guild of Hammers already!) wonders don't radically alter the course of the game, and that's as it should be. The fact that it doesn't affect national wonders and rituals suggests that this trait is supposed to revolve around winning wonder races, which I don't find appealing. I think want to change to a general building production boost ala Artisans Workshop: +10% :hammers:, -10% unit production. This number may be too low, as indeed might the Artisan Workshop's: even ignoring the time value of production entirely, you have to invest 1,333 :hammers: in buildings before it breaks even. I would also consider changing the worker boost to something more noticeable. The trait still seems too bland to me, more ideas are needed.



6. Other ideas. I think Charismatic should focus more on +:) and a little less on leveling units, though I don't have specific ideas. Ideally, Financial would be more about :gold: and less about :commerce:, but given the usually prohibitive costs of rushing/upgrading units they amount to basically the same thing (read: :science:).

Sarisin
Feb 18, 2010, 06:46 AM
I put this here instead of bugs because it is probably how the game works, but I don't understand it.

As Goodreau/Grigori I am at war with Sidar/Koun.

I raze a city that was building The Baron. I see that during my turn the build in another Sidar city changes to The Baron.

As luck would have it, I have a small stack near this city too and raze it. The build of the Baron moves to yet another Sidar city.

My question is as this is a turn-based game, how can the AI make changes like this during my turn? Wouldn't it have to wait until my turn is finished to change its build queue?

Also, I am noticing some strange things in just about every game. I am playing at Monarch difficulty.

In this game Sidar/Koun declared war on me. I figured no problem as I had some strong Hunter Adventurers and the Three Stooges with a lot of XP.

I take them over to Sidar territory only to discover they have Strength 10 Champions WITH MITHRIL WEAPONS!

It was only Turn 226 in a Normal Speed game. Also, as mentioned, they were building the Baron which requires another advanced tech.

Yet, when the popup that shows tech ranking appears, I am listed as number one in tech. :confused:

It just seems that every game I run into some AI that is too advanced compared to the number of turns that have been played. In another game I ran into the Mechanos with Hand Gunners before Turn 200.

Maybe they are forgetting all other techs and beelining, but still some of these seem way too early.

Valkrionn
Feb 18, 2010, 07:24 AM
Glad to hear that this is on the table. I'll share my attempt at a minimal rework. I think there's a case for a more thoroughgoing reconsideration than the following, but that would clearly take a lot more thought, testing, etc. I as stated, I think the biggest problems are with Arcane, Creative, Organized, Expansive, and Industrious, so I'll consider each in turn.

I haven't actually done anything on it yet, but I do want to, so your input is very welcome. ;)


1. Arcane. One of rife's two joke traits; I don't think anyone will want to dispute that -50% on a building that many arcane players will skip completely for the Catacomb Libralus coupled with a very minor boost to leveling speed of arcane units is terrible. Even if its boost applied only to arcane units, Charismatic would still be much better. Along those lines, I would like to change the potency effect to instead lower the xp needed for promotions. This would have the important consequence of insuring that arcane players still benefit from xp gained through normal combat (especially nice for Amurites). I would also consider giving the mages another free promotion, as spiritual does. Mobility I or Spell Extension I might be reasonable choices.

The Arcane Trait still needs a little more flavor. My suggestion to to allow Arcane leaders to build Academies without a GS, much like Organized leaders can with Command Posts. The obvious prerequisite tech options are Arcane Lore or Strength of Will, but my preference is Guilds: its on an underused part of the tech tree and ensures that there's more to Arcane leaders then beelining up the mage tree. The :hammers: cost should be pretty high to prevent this from being spammed in all cities too easily. It may be desirable to give Academies some Arcane-themed effect if this is adopted. (You could even have Academies grant potency to all Arcane units built in the city; this would make GS more desirable and flavorful for non-Arcane leaders, while Arcane leaders can't complain since they don't have to use a GS).

Hmm... My idea is a little bit different. Introduce a tier 1 arcane unit, unable to build mana nodes (inherently limited to just palace/UF manas this way). Same strength as a scout, no tech requirement, obsoletes at KotE, requires the Arcane trait. Arcane leaders start with one for free.


2. Expansive. With RifE's additions of a new healer specialist and :gp:, extra +:health: resources, and :health: attached to other specialsts, Erebus' citizens have never been healthier. Couple the consequent superfluousness of Expansive's +3:health: along with the fact the the settler bonus doesn't consider food used for production, and you've got a seriously up trait. I propose moving Creative's +2:culture:/city to Expansive (maybe move it down to +1), since its only real function is to pop borders quickly. I would also give +20% (random number; can be changed as balance demands) :food: stored on city growth. The present bonuses can stay.

Health will be more important after I finish what I have planned; That's all I'll say here. ;)


3. Creative. This is a tough one. There's no denying it's pathetic in its current form (heck, you don't even get half off Theatres), but sensible tweaks are hard to come by. What I'm using right now is +50% :culture:/city, with Theatre and Masquerade Theatre added to the discount list (the flat +2:culture: is with Expansive, as stated above), but this isn't very satisfying. What I'd like is for cultural victory to be removed and for culture instead to provide +:) and economic bonuses that increase with a city's cultural level. Then Creative can have some kind of boost to those bonuses. But this is obviously a sweeping change and may not even be codable. Another possibility is to give Creative leaders some kind of bonus with the new guild system Valk is working on.

I'm really not sure what to do with Creative, but I could possibly do something with guilds, yes.


4. Organized. In practice it's just a (much) weaker version of financial. Its useless early game, and the savings continue to pale next to financial's boost even very late in the game. The Command Posts would be better if GC's weren't so plentiful. I suggest removing the -50% civic upkeep bonus (but not the command posts), and re-theming the trait to focus on training. Double production of Hunter's Hall, Training Yard, Jousting Tilt, Archery Range (and Siege Workshop? Maybe of the Master's buildings too?!). Training rates and limits (if codable) improved. GCs level up more quickly (and remove them from Charismatic). I get the feeling the training aspect of the game could use some polishing/buffing in general, and this remake fits this project. Maybe work equipment mechanics in somehow: grant reduced prices, or give new units a chance of stating with a random piece of equipment. Possibly rename the trait Martial or Disciplined. As a finishing touch, reduce unit supply costs somehow. The beauty of this is that it turns what would have been a useless trait for the AI into a rather solid one.

I like this one. :goodjob:


5. Industrious. I grant that this trait isn't as obviously broken as the above four, but it still doesn't work for me. With a few exceptions (nerf Guild of Hammers already!) wonders don't radically alter the course of the game, and that's as it should be. The fact that it doesn't affect national wonders and rituals suggests that this trait is supposed to revolve around winning wonder races, which I don't find appealing. I think want to change to a general building production boost ala Artisans Workshop: +10% :hammers:, -10% unit production. This number may be too low, as indeed might the Artisan Workshop's: even ignoring the time value of production entirely, you have to invest 1,333 :hammers: in buildings before it breaks even. I would also consider changing the worker boost to something more noticeable. The trait still seems too bland to me, more ideas are needed.

Hmm... Will see if that's possible.


6. Other ideas. I think Charismatic should focus more on +:) and a little less on leveling units, though I don't have specific ideas. Ideally, Financial would be more about :gold: and less about :commerce:, but given the usually prohibitive costs of rushing/upgrading units they amount to basically the same thing (read: :science:).

Feel free to post any other ideas. ;)

I put this here instead of bugs because it is probably how the game works, but I don't understand it.

As Goodreau/Grigori I am at war with Sidar/Koun.

I raze a city that was building The Baron. I see that during my turn the build in another Sidar city changes to The Baron.

As luck would have it, I have a small stack near this city too and raze it. The build of the Baron moves to yet another Sidar city.

My question is as this is a turn-based game, how can the AI make changes like this during my turn? Wouldn't it have to wait until my turn is finished to change its build queue?

Also, I am noticing some strange things in just about every game. I am playing at Monarch difficulty.

In this game Sidar/Koun declared war on me. I figured no problem as I had some strong Hunter Adventurers and the Three Stooges with a lot of XP.

I take them over to Sidar territory only to discover they have Strength 10 Champions WITH MITHRIL WEAPONS!

It was only Turn 226 in a Normal Speed game. Also, as mentioned, they were building the Baron which requires another advanced tech.

Yet, when the popup that shows tech ranking appears, I am listed as number one in tech. :confused:

It just seems that every game I run into some AI that is too advanced compared to the number of turns that have been played. In another game I ran into the Mechanos with Hand Gunners before Turn 200.

Maybe they are forgetting all other techs and beelining, but still some of these seem way too early.

I'm not sure when the AI updates it's production; I know the hammers are not applied until the next turn, however. It's possible that losing a city forces the AI to update it's build orders.

As for the techs... The AI actually has quite a bit of code telling it what to tech next (slightly buggy atm, but massively cleaned/optimized by Grey Fox; Make sure to thank him next version. :lol:). Apparently it told them to get Mithril, though obviously they got some decent economy techs on the way or they couldn't have managed it that fast, while you didn't specialize in your techs. Left you in the lead, but them in a higher tier.

Grey Fox
Feb 18, 2010, 08:48 AM
Yeah I've cleaned it up, optimized it and hopefully squashed all bugs.
But I haven't really changed any of the weights and such, which we might want to do.
Maybe even rewrite it to not be as hard coded and this time change it in the SDK (but we can start in python till we have much of the result we want)

Sarisin
Feb 18, 2010, 12:29 PM
I'm not sure when the AI updates it's production; I know the hammers are not applied until the next turn, however. It's possible that losing a city forces the AI to update it's build orders.

As for the techs... The AI actually has quite a bit of code telling it what to tech next (slightly buggy atm, but massively cleaned/optimized by Grey Fox; Make sure to thank him next version. :lol:). Apparently it told them to get Mithril, though obviously they got some decent economy techs on the way or they couldn't have managed it that fast, while you didn't specialize in your techs. Left you in the lead, but them in a higher tier.

I dunno, it really takes away the turn-based idea of a game if the AI can update any time it wants. I would think it should have to wait until you've hit that ENTER key ending your turn.

I thought it might be because they got lucky with goody huts as I often did at the lower difficulties. However, at Monarch and above I don't think you can pop a tech from a goody hut. You just get a few beakers towards one.

When you look at the tree and see what is necessary to get to Mithril Weapons and Feral Bond, it just doesn't seem to be possible to have both these advanced techs this early.

Also, after playing on, I noticed the next Sidar city I came to was building the Ride of the Nine Kings!:eek:

Again, I thought it just might be one of those games, but seeing it in a number of games, and playing only at Monarch, I have to wonder is there isn't something broken here.

I wonder if anyone else has seen this - AI civs way out in front of everyone else in technology very early in the game?

Korias
Feb 18, 2010, 12:38 PM
Would it be possible to enable The Black Wind to command units? It'd be interesting to have an actual pirate fleet under a single banner.

Palius84
Feb 18, 2010, 09:24 PM
For a Unique Improvement, you could have a mountain castle of a sort. Use it as a defense, and give off Air Mana.

Palius84
Feb 18, 2010, 09:27 PM
I like Korias's suggestion... as it is there are no real fleet battles. I suggest if you do that though, you actually make it possible to make a fleet commander. Whether it is a new promotion in order to have it command a ship. There are quite a few promotions available if you do that. Such as giving all units on the ship a bonus to attack from sea. All ships in command are given movement and such.

Palius84
Feb 18, 2010, 09:30 PM
I am not sure the mechanics of the game exactly, but is there a way to use multiple units in conjunction with each other. Such as when attacking with a Swordsman with an archer in a stack, you can get an automatic barrage from arrows if they have not attacked. Such things as that. Or have an Shieldmen automatically give bonuses to defense when in the stack. Maybe even have to make them into units for them to work in conjunction.

Korias
Feb 18, 2010, 10:04 PM
@Palius84:

The Guardians of Pristin Pass are closest to what you're saying... not sure if adding Air mana to the fort is a good idea or not.

And you can definitely have a barrage before your other units get in first, but you have to select the Archery unit and use a Ranged Attack before you use Melee units. Guardsman units defend the stack, but having a Shieldbearer unit may be interesting as a sort of mundane Great Commander that helps defend the stack... no attack, but high defense.

Palius84
Feb 19, 2010, 12:24 AM
I technically meant a different whole Unique Improvement, not just adding to what is already there.

For the units, I meant a specific unit in a group that gave bonuses when grouped together. Not just a group for moving.

Think more of an adventuring party. One who helps the others in the group with specific skills. They help their group that they have been assigned to.
Maybe even have a random effect to it. As in the longer the group is together the more likely these affects can happen.

If anyone has played Ogrebattle 64, for nintendo 64 you might have more of an understanding of what I mean.

Aline
Feb 19, 2010, 02:35 AM
Regarding the creative trait i had some ideas.

-All buildings that allow you to turn a citizen into a artist(its bard in ffh i think) provide free artists instead.

-Barbarian units that enter your territory have a chance of joining you.

-Barbarian cities that share borders with you have a chance of joining you.

-Units that attack a city of yours have a chance of joining you instead, chance increases with the culture level of the city.

-Foreign cities that are connected to one of your cities via trade routes get unhappiness and loose culture, your city gains happiness and culture.

-Unhappiness in all foreign cities of non creative leaders, based on your overall culture.

-Higher chances, that cites flip via culture.


The main idea is all ways the same, the empire of a creative leader offers more options for artists and the like, creating magnificent sparkling cites that everyone wants to live in.

Swinkscalibur
Feb 20, 2010, 04:58 AM
Are you still planning on adding the coal resource and creating steel weapons as a new tier? I've loved this idea ever since I first read it. Moving Mithril Working up the tech chain and making mithril super rare and even more powerful is something I've always thought would be great. I think Mithril Working should be a side tech and should require both the tech for steal weapons and a high arcane tech like Arcane Lore, representing the required knowledge of this ancient mystical metal.

Valkrionn
Feb 20, 2010, 10:52 AM
Yes, I am, and that's pretty much exactly what I want to do with Mithril. :lol:

Aline
Feb 20, 2010, 02:17 PM
Just a minor thing, but could the agnostic leaders get some BGM of their own or maybe use some allredy existing music, but that "bush drum" music all the time is a real pain.

25Hour
Feb 20, 2010, 03:19 PM
1. Arcane....The Arcane Trait still needs a little more flavor. My suggestion to to allow Arcane leaders to build Academies without a GS, much like Organized leaders can with Command Posts. The obvious prerequisite tech options are Arcane Lore or Strength of Will, but my preference is Guilds: its on an underused part of the tech tree and ensures that there's more to Arcane leaders then beelining up the mage tree. The :hammers: cost should be pretty high to prevent this from being spammed in all cities too easily. It may be desirable to give Academies some Arcane-themed effect if this is adopted. (You could even have Academies grant potency to all Arcane units built in the city; this would make GS more desirable and flavorful for non-Arcane leaders, while Arcane leaders can't complain since they don't have to use a GS).


Oooh, I like that. It tends to bug me that Arcane is a much less flexible trait than the other standard ones, since it really does enforce beelining a very specific, very expensive branch of the tech tree-- up until Sorcery, at very least-- before it actually starts to do anything. Building (probably very expensive) academies with Guilds would grant a few more options, as well as making the Arcane tech path take less prohibitively long. Powerful, but probably not overly so since it would be a very late-game effect (and, of course, Great Sages can build them for other civs.)


3. Creative. This is a tough one. There's no denying it's pathetic in its current form (heck, you don't even get half off Theatres), but sensible tweaks are hard to come by. What I'm using right now is +50% :culture:/city, with Theatre and Masquerade Theatre added to the discount list (the flat +2:culture: is with Expansive, as stated above), but this isn't very satisfying.


Hmm... yeah, that one's tricky. Would it be possible to have Creative increase the border push of forts as well, representing the seductiveness of the owning civilization? It would also seem not-unreasonable to grant a fairly cheap "Mural" building (or something) to Creative leaders at Drama, granting +25% :culture: and a free Bard specialist. This will make the trait valuable from both a cultural and a Great Person standpoint, upping the trait's flexibility as well as giving it some utility for cultural victories (+2 culture per turn alone does very little in service of that.)


5. Industrious. I grant that this trait isn't as obviously broken as the above four, but it still doesn't work for me. With a few exceptions (nerf Guild of Hammers already!) wonders don't radically alter the course of the game, and that's as it should be. The fact that it doesn't affect national wonders and rituals suggests that this trait is supposed to revolve around winning wonder races, which I don't find appealing. I think want to change to a general building production boost ala Artisans Workshop: +10% :hammers:, -10% unit production. This number may be too low, as indeed might the Artisan Workshop's: even ignoring the time value of production entirely, you have to invest 1,333 :hammers: in buildings before it breaks even. I would also consider changing the worker boost to something more noticeable. The trait still seems too bland to me, more ideas are needed.


It could just be free Artisan's Workshops in every city, on the same vein as the Tyrant trait. (And I'd definitely support helping the Artisan's Workshops in some way.) I also like the idea of boosting worker speed more noticeably-- as mentioned, +10% isn't very much. Maybe something more like +50%? (Also, on a completely different note-- double production speed of work boats? You don't need terribly many over the course of a game, but at least it'll get your coastal areas up and running faster, which can be a problem for my production-starved island cities.)

Leverkuhn
Feb 21, 2010, 02:53 AM
[List of ideas, summed up by:]


The main idea is all ways the same, the empire of a creative leader offers more options for artists and the like, creating magnificent sparkling cites that everyone wants to live in.

Would it be possible to have Creative increase the border push of forts as well, representing the seductiveness of the owning civilization?


These suggestions take culture the way Firaxis wanted it to be thought of (attractiveness of a civilization to foreigners) and try to give it more important in actual gameplay. I think this approach to culture/the creative trait in FFH has some fundamental problems, however.

First, it doesn't make much sense lorewise. FFH civilzations obviously have a much more distinct cultural identity relative to classic BTS, and aren't necessarily going to be overawed by the cultural achievements of neighbors who may have completely different values, objectives, and perhaps even species. In a recent game, I flipped a Mazatl city (and a not a conquered one) as the Dural, and while it was nice, it didn't make much sense and I wouldn't want this kind of thing becoming more common. I feel the same way about Aline's barbarian suggestions: unlike in BTS where they represent unsettled tribes, barbarians in FFH are definitely hostile, and aren't going to be cowed by cultural achievements.

Second, the gameplay of border pushing/city flipping isn't very fun or interesting. Right now, it also happens to be pretty ineffective, but even it became more viable say for creative leaders, there still wouldn't be more to it than plunking some cities on a neighboring AI's border, getting culture buildings/specialists running, tributing some mana to keep the military away, and waiting for border tiles and cities to flip. It's just not the kind of thing the AI can comprehend. They can understand cultural victory, but to be honest I think those are pretty lame too, especially in the context of FFH.

In sum, while I'd like to see the see more relevance for culture/the creative trait as much as anyone else, culture's impact on gameplay has to be better before it can become bigger. For positive suggestions toward this, I unfortunately still don't have anything beyond the probably uncodable idea I threw out previously.

Pohlmann
Feb 22, 2010, 03:39 PM
concerning Creation 3 bonus Master of Creation:

At first i thought it was nice, but it's annoying like hell.
Considering balance: Twincast grants twincast without drawbacks, master of creation grants a 33% chance not only to miscast but to be unable to cast the next 129084302 turns. If it was just a miscast for this one spell it would be ok but as it is now it is even weaker than not skilling it (then you would have 1 1/3 spells on average per turn instead of 1)

In addition, Wonder and those 7 turn channeling spells are awful aswell. wonder is a 100% sure miscast spell as it is triggered with multiple casting instances => miscast.
Those 7 turn spells are not cancelled on activition but on completion (yay wasting 7 rounds doing NOTHING)

i would really love to take the challenge of getting the final promotion but as it is now ITS AWFUL!!!!!!!

:(

Valkrionn
Feb 22, 2010, 03:53 PM
Yeah, I'm planning to change it. Initially I was thinking it would just cause some casts to fail; Hadn't known about the delayed casting afterwards.

Pohlmann
Feb 23, 2010, 03:56 AM
ahhhh.

where was this playtesting thread?

i want to betatest if im allowed to :D. now after removing burnout from kahd every turn for 50 turns i think i am an expert with the world builder ^^.

Also mby i could try to work out and submit some events. Is there any restriction towards events for you or some sort of scheme they have to fit in?

Valkrionn
Feb 23, 2010, 07:36 AM
Sadly, we already have 15 testers (plus the team, plus assorted other modders with team forum access), so I don't want to add anymore. ;)

Aline
Feb 23, 2010, 02:51 PM
Hi

is there any way to nerv the sabertoth, they kinda instand kill everything, are invisable and spawn en mass.

Valkrionn
Feb 23, 2010, 03:14 PM
Not without modding your game files, but they've already been nerfed for the next version. ;)

Aline
Feb 23, 2010, 03:32 PM
Good x.x

Pohlmann
Feb 24, 2010, 02:21 AM
is something like bonusyields planned for mana nodes?

what about: water node provide source of fresh water, air node in desert spreads desert,

death and entropy wear down nearby forests to some new improvement, nature and chaos spawn random stuff, etc

Valkrionn
Feb 24, 2010, 08:13 AM
Check out this module here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=347763

Give him some feedback, maybe he'll finish it with all mana types. ;)

Pohlmann
Feb 24, 2010, 09:30 AM
something else: why do slaves cost money per turn? dont get it :D

Grey Fox
Feb 24, 2010, 09:36 AM
Food, Transportation, Guarding? :P

Valkrionn
Feb 24, 2010, 11:02 AM
something else: why do slaves cost money per turn? dont get it :D

Food, clothing, guards, etc. Slaves aren't free, they're just paid for in different ways. Since we can't represent those 'different ways', they cost maintenance.

Pohlmann
Feb 24, 2010, 12:09 PM
but this is a serious nerf for the slavery civic. couldnt there be a 50% chance to not cost maintenance? for working slower than a normal worker, the slave should at least not be as expensive

Valkrionn
Feb 24, 2010, 01:19 PM
but this is a serious nerf for the slavery civic. couldnt there be a 50% chance to not cost maintenance? for working slower than a normal worker, the slave should at least not be as expensive

I'm not sure how it's a nerf, seeing as it works the exact same way in BtS, not to mention FfH. Slaves have always cost maintenance.

Randomness
Feb 24, 2010, 05:38 PM
Prehaps ruthless AI from A New Dawn Rise of Mankind should be looked at. It did wonders for the AI, prehaps something similar could be used in RiFE. In ruthless AI, the computer has been changed to acept tech trades unless furious. This greatly increases the tech of the AI. It also takes out all the "simulated emotion" hurting deplomacy decisions. Unless the AI is friendly with you, it will declare war on you if you are weak.

MrUnderhill
Feb 28, 2010, 11:32 AM
Valk, if you're still working on the next patch, I have a stability/cosmetic update for the GP bar that you could include. Basically it adds support for unique Great Persons without breaking the interface.
In the original version, there was an awful lot of hard-coding and reliance on unit types instead of classes, which made things go wonky if you replaced a vanilla GP with a unique one. My version fixes that.
It's one of those issues that will probably never come up in regular gameplay, but I figured it can't hurt to include it for modmodmodders like me. :D

Valkrionn
Feb 28, 2010, 11:39 AM
Valk, if you're still working on the next patch, I have a stability/cosmetic update for the GP bar that you could include. Basically it adds support for unique Great Persons without breaking the interface.
In the original version, there was an awful lot of hard-coding and reliance on unit types instead of classes, which made things go wonky if you replaced a vanilla GP with a unique one. My version fixes that.
It's one of those issues that will probably never come up in regular gameplay, but I figured it can't hurt to include it for modmodmodders like me. :D

Awesome, will look at it. Thanks! :goodjob:

And yes, we are still working on the next patch. Sadly, more design than implementation atm because of my classes, but lots of work nonetheless on the parts of Grey Fox and Vermicious. ;)

sylvain5477
Feb 28, 2010, 04:18 PM
@Valk : Is it normal that unit with the invisible promo can attack while staying invisible ? I remember a time when units would become visible (until using the hide spell again) after action and/or combat ?

EDIT : just realised it is the difference between invisible and hidden :)

Milaga
Feb 28, 2010, 08:02 PM
Unless the AI is friendly with you, it will declare war on you if you are weak.

I play on emperor and my best friend seems to always stab me in the back after centuries of being pleased or friendly. The most recent time he was so weak his hunter invasion force turned around the very next turn to (unsuccessfully) defend his capital from my iron champions. I decided it would just be quicker to capture all his cities then research Feudalism.

It was much quicker.

GIR
Mar 01, 2010, 04:49 PM
is there a way to change the duration of a promotion with python?
(if not this should be added)

Randomness
Mar 01, 2010, 06:41 PM
I play on emperor and my best friend seems to always stab me in the back after centuries of being pleased or friendly. The most recent time he was so weak his hunter invasion force turned around the very next turn to (unsuccessfully) defend his capital from my iron champions. I decided it would just be quicker to capture all his cities then research Feudalism.

It was much quicker.

To be honest, the fact that the AI tech trades unless it is furious is what makes it better. This is an easy change, but time consuming and mind numbing, otherwise, I would do it myself:p

Almagafor
Mar 04, 2010, 01:19 AM
Would it be possible for me to make a request for a new Scion (only) emergent or minor leader, I've be kicking around some ideas, but I'm horrible at programing.

Valkrionn
Mar 04, 2010, 07:49 AM
Would it be possible for me to make a request for a new Scion (only) emergent or minor leader, I've be kicking around some ideas, but I'm horrible at programing.

It's quite easy to add leaders: My only request is that you provide leader art that fits with the game. ;)

Basic requirements for a leader are explained in this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8125856#post8125856

I've bumped it so it should be on the front page again.

Pohlmann
Mar 07, 2010, 12:39 PM
Civilization Idea incoming :D

Morphers

General Concept: Divine creatures (sort of) morph resources into certain forms.

Creatures are split in 2 parts.

Living creatures and some sort of golem creatures.

The civ would be completely fallow like infernals with the exception that they gather food. so neither happyness, nor health, no city shrinking and no growing.

cities are populated by collecters.
they gather food and raw material.

so food goes up in your cities but the cities cant grow.

instead the city produces living units with food and "golems" with hammers.
when the unit pops out then its not a unit yet. it needs some sort of soul.

thats where the morphers come in.
they collect these entities from material. living material provides entities for living units, all raw materials for golems.
they absorb the soul of the material turning it into some generic form which grants lower yield for some turns and then the soul returns to the resource again.
the soul is kept inside a soul gem and is carried back to the city and can be inserted into the unit.
every resource provides different boni to the units and thus some resources will be better than others depending on what you want to have. (but no resource is useless. this is what i dislike about other fallow concepts. they dont make use of the resources surrounding them)

now you might ask what's about population. i would say that both forms have one basic unit that acts like manes do and can add population to cities.

hero would be the first morpher and available from start with an upgrade at alteration and another one at divine essence.

palace mana: force (for golems ;D) creation (for living beings ;D ;D) and metamagic (for inserting souls into beings)

this concept could even be commerce-free and rely only on specialists as the collectors are just interested in material to build up new entities

what do you think about it? im astonished that i came up with something which seems that good :D

Valkrionn
Mar 07, 2010, 03:03 PM
Unfortunately, as described it would need DLL work. For instance, being fallow with regards to population but still gathering food. Or having a unit produced with just food.

Not a bad idea, but I have a bit much on my plate at the moment to add the required code; More than willing to provide advice if you want to do it though. ;)

sylvain5477
Mar 07, 2010, 03:52 PM
Civilization Idea incoming :D

palace mana: force (for golems ;D) creation (for living beings ;D ;D) and metamagic (for inserting souls into beings)

what do you think about it? im astonished that i came up with something which seems that good :D

As usual ;), take your hammer (your text editor) and your food (snacks to keep working late), and use metamagic (inserting ideas into python/xml) so that you can have something to start with and receive help from everyone here :)

Especially that the idea is interesting.

Pohlmann
Mar 08, 2010, 04:32 AM
I might try it.

Already looked for some sort of leaderhead but couldnt find a suitable one.

wanted to have at least leaderhead and some custom hero graphics.
Have none of them but found suitable diplo music for them :D

Would any1 of you mind to upload a CvgamecoreDll.dll from the normal bts assets folder? i corrupted mine when using the quickfix thanks to wrong copypasta.

i'll do some brainstorming now and might start reading those tutorials once again :crazyeye:

Pohlmann
Mar 08, 2010, 02:27 PM
HA!

found something. not brilliant, but not bad either.
What do you think about this leaderhead?

245665



What i dislike about it:
It seems sort of a bad character and is too much of a shaped form.
Mby if you look around and see some picture with nature and machines combined with some grey eminence or something: THIS would be the ideal leaderhead.

Maybe if i get this Warhammer mod started i might find some art to steal from :D of course only for the hero.
(yes i know this is inefficient :lol:)