View Full Version : RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback


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admtanaka
Mar 08, 2010, 05:24 PM
Minor suggestion:
How about some appropriate music for The White Hand? The spread music is "order" (right?) and the background all seems to be the default FfH.

Valkrionn
Mar 08, 2010, 05:30 PM
Minor suggestion:
How about some appropriate music for The White Hand? The spread music is "order" (right?) and the background all seems to be the default FfH.

Can't do music without an Era. Can't (well, won't) do an era without appropriate Art. Now that I have a program capable of saving DDS files in a format fit for skins, rather than just buttons, I'll try my hand at it but promise nothing. :lol:

@Pohlman - I like your civ idea, but please make a new thread for it rather than post in Ideas. :p The thread is rather large, and as I lack the power to make new stickied threads (have to ask a mod to do it), I'd prefer to keep discussions about things like that in separate threads. ;)

Pohlmann
Mar 09, 2010, 02:42 AM
i know i know.

i think that he means religion music when the religion is founded or spread in a city not a whole theme. :D


and what program do you use for this dds stuff? irfan view needs plugins although it shouldnt, for installing it for gimp i would have to read through 1000 pages installation hints etc

Valkrionn
Mar 09, 2010, 08:37 AM
i know i know.

i think that he means religion music when the religion is founded or spread in a city not a whole theme. :D


and what program do you use for this dds stuff? irfan view needs plugins although it shouldnt, for installing it for gimp i would have to read through 1000 pages installation hints etc

Paint.net is free, and has native DDS support. For skins, you use DXT3, and generate Mipmaps (the part I couldn't do before; Without them, it looks odd at different scales, and the game autoscales it when it's far away and so on.).

I dislike Gimp; Only time I used it before was to convert Banners to .dds format, as my old converter only handled certain sizes.

VSPavlov
Mar 09, 2010, 10:40 AM
For .dds I personally use Photoshop with plugins)

VSPavlov
Mar 09, 2010, 11:07 AM
I have a crazy but funny idea of changing Windmill and Watermills in a crazy way.
- No yield of itself by default
- +1 food to each Farm on adjacent tile (non-cumulative)
- Can not be put closer than two tiles one to another
- +1 gold of own yield for each 5 (or 4) food produced by Farms on adjacent tiles
- If any of adjacent farms produces any plant resource, Mill spawns Bread resource, with bonus to food and health. When Mill is pillaged, Bread is deleted.
- Some other boni, which seem appropriate and balancing

This would lead to creation of clusters of farms around single Mills, which is quite a sight for a sore eye)

Milaga
Mar 09, 2010, 04:08 PM
I have a crazy but funny idea of changing Windmill and Watermills in a crazy way.
- No yield of itself by default
- +1 food to each Farm on adjacent tile (non-cumulative)
- Can not be put closer than two tiles one to another
- +1 gold of own yield for each 5 (or 4) food produced by Farms on adjacent tiles
- If any of adjacent farms produces any plant resource, Mill spawns Bread resource, with bonus to food and health. When Mill is pillaged, Bread is deleted.
- Some other boni, which seem appropriate and balancing

This would lead to creation of clusters of farms around single Mills, which is quite a sight for a sore eye)

That seems interesting.

Recently I had been wondering about "wood" as a psuedo-resource. Without it, things like ships and siege weapons would take twice as long to build. Some buildings might build slightly faster with it. The only way to get wood is to have a lumbermill in the city radius or be connected to a lumbermill by a river. Each lumbermill can only provide wood for one city.

Randomly a lumbermill might reduce a forest to a new forest (or ancient forest to forest.) The lumbermill would not produce wood if in a new forest. Under FoL, this reduction would not happen, but it takes twice as many lumbermills to provide wood for a city.

Chopping down a forest or jungle could provided a temporary wood resource for a city instead of providing hammers.

Jheral
Mar 09, 2010, 04:25 PM
I have a crazy but funny idea of changing Windmill and Watermills in a crazy way.
- No yield of itself by default
- +1 food to each Farm on adjacent tile (non-cumulative)
- Can not be put closer than two tiles one to another
- +1 gold of own yield for each 5 (or 4) food produced by Farms on adjacent tiles
- If any of adjacent farms produces any plant resource, Mill spawns Bread resource, with bonus to food and health. When Mill is pillaged, Bread is deleted.
- Some other boni, which seem appropriate and balancing

This would lead to creation of clusters of farms around single Mills, which is quite a sight for a sore eye)

That does seem like a good idea.

I am very much in favour of introducing more 'refined' resources and associated improvements into the game.

Trappisto
Mar 13, 2010, 06:48 AM
Some ideas:
High Armeg Counter also spawns Angelic chars to harrass evil, so the world gets more unstable not just more evil.
Have quests and items that can only spawn on islands, to encourage more use of water based units (kinda like in original FFH).
Dwarf civs only can only make cities in hills/mountains - but they are actually underground.
Dwarf roads - Underground travel.
Evil alignments must always declare war against good.

isthmus
Mar 13, 2010, 10:12 AM
Some ideas:
High Armeg Counter also spawns Angelic chars to harrass evil, so the world gets more unstable not just more evil.


The demons spawned from the high armageddon count actually do attack the evil civs though, except if they've made peace with the demons (through either a ritual that requires city destruction or being sheaim or infernals following the Veil), so it's not like the evil civs are safe during armageddon.. although I do think that the inclusion of other factions being involved with the rising counter would be a cool idea. :crazyeye:

Dwarf civs only can only make cities in hills/mountains - but they are actually underground.
Dwarf roads - Underground travel.


I think that the dwarf civs we see above ground in erebus are ones that have expanded onto the surface and so any cities they make are predominantly surfaced based than necessarily linked to underground mines - although there's no reason why some of them wouldn't be. The Khazad already have some flavour for hills, due to dwarven mines and their world spell so this possibly represents that. The luichirp have been surface based since the age of ice i think? It might be possible to get a unique version of the Nexus wonder for the Khazad which represents an underground travel system though and put onto a different tech line, since they wouldn't be teching up the arcane line anyway.

Evil alignments must always declare war against good.

Don't think this is great though, it really limits the player and I'm sure there's points where good sides will fight since they don't all have the same agenda.

Wodan
Mar 13, 2010, 11:42 AM
Feedback about recon units (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=357098).

Swinkscalibur
Mar 13, 2010, 05:36 PM
I have an idea for the D'tesh.

As of right now I'm not sure if any of this is implemented or how it works now, but I was thinking about the D'tesh and water.

Besides a small amount of commerce, water tiles and water resources are utterly useless for the D'tesh. Now obviously they don't have a strong affinity for water, but there doesn't seem to be any reason why the master of Death wouldn't have found a way to gain some power over these resources as well. That is what led me to the following idea.

The D'tesh should have a water UU, at first I was thinking workboat, but I think that comes to early and doesn't quite fit the feel of the civ. So that leads me to ...

Arcane Barge UU - "Pyre Barge" - (same required techs)
- can build "Floating Pyre" improvement on water tiles.
- lots of other ways to go with this to make it unique - Death Affinity/ Death Magic instead of Fire/ Unique spells-summons (I'm open to exact details on this aspect)

"Floating Pyre"
- improvement gives same yeilds as pyre (including increased yeilds at Necromancy, Arcane Lore)
- can only be built on water resources (fish, crabs, shrimp, whale)
- provides Infused Ash

Valkrionn
Mar 13, 2010, 05:48 PM
Hmm... That's not a bad idea, I'll think about it. ;)

Will have a bigger post on it later on, don't have much time atm.

Draconian
Mar 14, 2010, 03:32 AM
Is Lord D'Tesh really supposed to have +4 Death combat, +1 Death affinity AND additionally the same again from his Opalus Mortis promotion? That's +10 Death combat with only the palace mana. Might be a bit over the top since he has Chanelling III and Immortality as well.

odalrick
Mar 14, 2010, 04:00 AM
"Floating Pyre"

Fire and water doesn't exactly mix.

Call it Undead Fire instead and make it clear in the lore that not even water quenches it. It burns underwater.

Yeah, Undead Fire isn't exactly an inspired name. Neither is Unholy Fire, Cold Fire, Dead Fire...

Fluesterwitz
Mar 14, 2010, 04:15 AM
"Pyre of the Dephts"? :devil:

Swinkscalibur
Mar 14, 2010, 08:35 AM
I just pictured a giant floating barge with a pyre built on top of it.

isthmus
Mar 14, 2010, 09:36 AM
I'd imagine they'd fish up all the fish/crabs etc and chuck them straight into a pyre sitting on a boat

odalrick
Mar 14, 2010, 10:03 AM
I just pictured a giant floating barge with a pyre built on top of it.

Sure. It just seems impractical and I like the idea of a mystical fire that burns in water.

Hroth
Mar 14, 2010, 11:23 AM
Would it be possible to make City Ruins turn into a lair to be explored instead of the randomness of the event that is currently in the game?

I was thinking about a timer (like fort growth); City ruins (no reward/guardian) (not explorable), Old ruins (low level reward/guardian), Aged ruins (mid level/reward guardian), and Ancient ruins (high level reward/guardian).

I'm not sure if the guardian should spawn like a mana guardian, or be popped on initial exploration of the ruins. It should be leashed to the ruins (range 0) and must be defeated before any reward.

Any thoughts?

Valkrionn
Mar 14, 2010, 12:25 PM
Is Lord D'Tesh really supposed to have +4 Death combat, +1 Death affinity AND additionally the same again from his Opalus Mortis promotion? That's +10 Death combat with only the palace mana. Might be a bit over the top since he has Chanelling III and Immortality as well.

Yes, though I may need to look at it again. The D'tesh as a whole are rather squishy if you get to them; Lord D'tesh is meant to reverse that.

Would it be possible to make City Ruins turn into a lair to be explored instead of the randomness of the event that is currently in the game?

I was thinking about a timer (like fort growth); City ruins (no reward/guardian) (not explorable), Old ruins (low level reward/guardian), Aged ruins (mid level/reward guardian), and Ancient ruins (high level reward/guardian).

I'm not sure if the guardian should spawn like a mana guardian, or be popped on initial exploration of the ruins. It should be leashed to the ruins (range 0) and must be defeated before any reward.

Any thoughts?

Was thinking of something along that line, actually. Mainly because Seven05 requested it for ErebusContinent. :lol:

Cuteunit
Mar 14, 2010, 12:30 PM
Increase the city and civic maintenance costs.. so much gold in RIFE that unlimited scale empires are not just easy, they're required. It hurts the kurios and the scions.

Almagafor
Mar 14, 2010, 03:24 PM
Or we could just make it easier for Kuriotates and my precious... I mean the Scions, to make huge emipires. If I remember castles and citadels are going to be directly buildable so that should help both, and hopefully the Scions are getting something to help their population growth (cause the cathedrals just aren't cutting it.)

stormyorky
Mar 15, 2010, 11:56 AM
I hereby request compatibility with BUG mod. I have BUG mod installed in my assets folder, as opposed to a standalone mod, and when I now fire up RifE, I see no interface within the game at all, only the game-map.

Valkrionn
Mar 15, 2010, 12:01 PM
I hereby request compatibility with BUG mod. I have BUG mod installed in my assets folder, as opposed to a standalone mod, and when I now fire up RifE, I see no interface within the game at all, only the game-map.

That's already done; Personally, I really dislike mods that install data there as it just seems wrong to me, but I've already changed the ini to prevent the loading of data from that directory.

stormyorky
Mar 15, 2010, 12:15 PM
http://img696.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0000j.jpg/http://img696.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0000j.jpg/

Valkrionn
Mar 15, 2010, 12:17 PM
I was meaning for the next version, not in the currently released one. Though now that it's been pointed out again it'll go in the Flavor Patch, which is going to the testers today.

Swinkscalibur
Mar 15, 2010, 02:03 PM
any more thoughts on the D'teshi Arcane Barge UU, I proposed? Sorry I don't have any art in mind for either the UU or the improvement, but now that you have all your newfound art skills maybe you could do it yourself. ;)

Valkrionn
Mar 15, 2010, 02:12 PM
Sorry, had been busy working on a secret project; Now that it's finished, I have time to reply. :p

I'm not sure exactly how best to accomplish it, but the D'tesh DO need something for the ocean; I think what you proposed is likely the best method, as it gives them an interesting unit as well as the pyres. Not sure if they'll be floating pyres or not, that part I'll have to think about. ;)

Exoder
Mar 15, 2010, 03:20 PM
How about making ai build more workers generally(also scripting them to not change improvement on given tile until say 50 turns after building the previous one - because they often just would build different improvements all the time)? it seems like atm - ai leaders wont bother with more than 1 worker per city at most(sometimes they have just 1 woker per 3-4 cities in my games). Their countryside would just stay that way until very late in game. Nothing to say that it slows them down very much...

Fluesterwitz
Mar 16, 2010, 08:54 AM
I requested this for Orbis, might as well do here :D

I propose a recon promo "Pathfinding" that reduces movement cost by 1, like the magic boots.

Right now a fast scout needs 4 promotions (forrest/hills)* making the unit no longer expendable. As these promos include combat boni it would be a waste not to upgrade the unit further asap. IMO these units represent light infantry rather than smallish, expendable scouting parties that venture incospiciously into the unknown, relying on the avoidance of combat for survival. And if such a Scout does survive to be promoted, well that's the stuff of campfire legends and a fun accomplishment for the player. :king:

* might be different in RifE after the rebuild/patch.

Valkrionn
Mar 16, 2010, 09:32 AM
I requested this for Orbis, might as well do here :D

I propose a recon promo "Pathfinding" that reduces movement cost by 1, like the magic boots.

Right now a fast scout needs 4 promotions (forrest/hills)* making the unit no longer expendable. As these promos include combat boni it would be a waste not to upgrade the unit further asap. IMO these units represent light infantry rather than smallish, expendable scouting parties that venture incospiciously into the unknown, relying on the avoidance of combat for survival. And if such a Scout does survive to be promoted, well that's the stuff of campfire legends and a fun accomplishment for the player. :king:

* might be different in RifE after the rebuild/patch.

Not a bad idea... Will think about it.

Milaga
Mar 16, 2010, 06:35 PM
I requested this for Orbis, might as well do here :D

I propose a recon promo "Pathfinding" that reduces movement cost by 1, like the magic boots.

Right now a fast scout needs 4 promotions (forrest/hills)* making the unit no longer expendable. As these promos include combat boni it would be a waste not to upgrade the unit further asap. IMO these units represent light infantry rather than smallish, expendable scouting parties that venture incospiciously into the unknown, relying on the avoidance of combat for survival. And if such a Scout does survive to be promoted, well that's the stuff of campfire legends and a fun accomplishment for the player. :king:

* might be different in RifE after the rebuild/patch.

I like this idea.

Perhaps it might include a combat penalty of some sort, at least in attack. I imagine beastmasters might love this a bit too much for terrorizing the countryside of their opponents.

Perhaps only Scouts and Hunters can take it (and lose it when upgraded.)

Azhral
Mar 17, 2010, 01:24 PM
I had an idea re an old thread about the City of a Thousand Slums.
Currently when playing as Kurios, building the City of a Thousand Slums results in no bonus whatsoever. Perhaps make the wonder increase their city limit by 1?
However simply adding the Max Cities +1 to it might make non city limited civs suddenly find they are only allowed 1 city (meaning they can no longer settle and can't conquer new cities). Depends on how that mechanic is handled (i.e. if Max Cities = 0 means unlimited cities).

Valkrionn
Mar 17, 2010, 01:36 PM
I had an idea re an old thread about the City of a Thousand Slums.
Currently when playing as Kurios, building the City of a Thousand Slums results in no bonus whatsoever. Perhaps make the wonder increase their city limit by 1?
However simply adding the Max Cities +1 to it might make non city limited civs suddenly find they are only allowed 1 city (meaning they can no longer settle and can't conquer new cities). Depends on how that mechanic is handled (i.e. if Max Cities = 0 means unlimited cities).

You might want to try it in RifE; Kurios and Jotnar (Both 3 tier cities) have the Gardens of Amathaeon UB for it. Removes :yuck: (from population only) in the city, adds 3 :health:, allows a free Healer.

Schwarzbart
Mar 19, 2010, 09:48 AM
Today I started a game with the Malakim and I think they get to restricted with the places they can build a sucesfull city.
Because of the Climate change toward Desert within theyr boarders they only get enough enough food from Flooded Plains so theyr citys are restricted to areas where at last some fields are with a river. So I think it would be good to either give them a bether boost for the oasis where they eventual can build 1 per city or give them a bether use of the Desert.

Valkrionn
Mar 19, 2010, 10:11 AM
Today I started a game with the Malakim and I think they get to restricted with the places they can build a sucesfull city.
Because of the Climate change toward Desert within theyr boarders they only get enough enough food from Flooded Plains so theyr citys are restricted to areas where at last some fields are with a river. So I think it would be good to either give them a bether boost for the oasis where they eventual can build 1 per city or give them a bether use of the Desert.

They CAN build an Oasis. Any arcane unit has access to the spell; One per city. They also have the Bedouin Sits, which provide food when fully grown; And once the trade is working again they'll have that too. ;)

Wodan
Mar 19, 2010, 10:20 AM
The last time I played the Malakim the problem I had was that the city governor isn't smart enough to know that sits are a food source and should be worked; it'll work specialists before it works a normal desert with a sit. So you have to go in and manually apply your citizens to work the tiles.

Valkrionn
Mar 19, 2010, 10:24 AM
The last time I played the Malakim the problem I had was that the city governor isn't smart enough to know that sits are a food source and should be worked; it'll work specialists before it works a normal desert with a sit. So you have to go in and manually apply your citizens to work the tiles.

Hmm... Will try to fix that then.

stupidnewbie
Mar 19, 2010, 02:14 PM
I've been playing as the Malakim recently, and am also of the opinion that their plot yields are far too low, especially when compared to the other auto-terraform civs. If there's no river nearby, an oasis will allow you to support a city of size... four. If you have all the trade route techs and buildings, I suppose then you could go all the way up to five or six.

Bedouin improvements are neat, but they only start producing a food surplus after 105 turns. That is a very long period of time, during which it must be supported by the other population. That is also, however, assuming that you live that long, and since your base plot yield is one commerce, no hammers and no food, you may have some difficulty there.

I changed the Malakim to gain one base food from desert and took away their bonus food from flood plains and oasis, and there was much rejoicing.

Valkrionn
Mar 19, 2010, 03:41 PM
I've been playing as the Malakim recently, and am also of the opinion that their plot yields are far too low, especially when compared to the other auto-terraform civs. If there's no river nearby, an oasis will allow you to support a city of size... four. If you have all the trade route techs and buildings, I suppose then you could go all the way up to five or six.

Bedouin improvements are neat, but they only start producing a food surplus after 105 turns. That is a very long period of time, during which it must be supported by the other population. That is also, however, assuming that you live that long, and since your base plot yield is one commerce, no hammers and no food, you may have some difficulty there.

I changed the Malakim to gain one base food from desert and took away their bonus food from flood plains and oasis, and there was much rejoicing.

I just think that's completely unrealistic, though. Living in the desert does not mean finding food everywhere, it means knowing where to settle; The rivers. There has never been a successful desert civilization without a large river or two.

A few things:

Trade routes aren't working at the moment, so you aren't getting the bonus there; They will be decimal, however, so you'll get a decent amount of food.
Malakim get some very good combat bonuses in desert.
Next version I can add build orders via promotions; There may end up being one allowing you to build a Bedouin Camp or even Gathering.
Considering allowing the Bedouin improvements to discover a few resources... Camels, Reagents, Incense, Gold, Salt. All at lower than normal odds, and reduced bonuses from them as opposed to the regular improvements.
They also trade over desert (like Ocean after Astronomy) next version; Testers have been playing with that one for a while.

Wodan
Mar 19, 2010, 03:46 PM
I just think that's completely unrealistic, though. Living in the desert does not mean finding food everywhere, it means knowing where to settle; The rivers. There has never been a successful desert civilization without a large river or two.
Your argument is an argument against the current gameplay, as well as his proposed gameplay.

Anyway the real world doesn't have magic, so it's not always a good place to go to for "realism" in a fantasy setting.

Valkrionn
Mar 19, 2010, 03:49 PM
Your argument is an argument against the current gameplay, as well as his proposed gameplay.

Anyway the real world doesn't have magic, so it's not always a good place to go to for "realism" in a fantasy setting.

I don't think so; The bedouin improvements are meant to symbolize trade on the plot and small scale farming. Not finding food wherever. The Malakim can get quite a bit of food, you just have to have the river.

Also... Magic just doesn't work here. If we were going to rely on magic, then they'd terraform to grassland. ;)

If it's decided necessary, I'd be open to allowing more Oases (Or rather, dropping the yields for them and THEN allowing more).

stupidnewbie
Mar 19, 2010, 04:27 PM
I just think that's completely unrealistic, though. Living in the desert does not mean finding food everywhere, it means knowing where to settle; The rivers. There has never been a successful desert civilization without a large river or two.

A few things:

Trade routes aren't working at the moment, so you aren't getting the bonus there; They will be decimal, however, so you'll get a decent amount of food.
Malakim get some very good combat bonuses in desert.
Next version I can add build orders via promotions; There may end up being one allowing you to build a Bedouin Camp or even Gathering.
Considering allowing the Bedouin improvements to discover a few resources... Camels, Reagents, Incense, Gold, Salt. All at lower than normal odds, and reduced bonuses from them as opposed to the regular improvements.
They also trade over desert (like Ocean after Astronomy) next version; Testers have been playing with that one for a while.


One food is not "finding food everywhere", it's getting just enough food to support a city that won't have to take 60 turns to build a monument. It's not like I'm building farms all over the place. Moreover, these aren't just a people who have adapted to living in the desert, now they're a people who turn their surrounding environment into a desert as well. Let's not forget that all the other civs have the option to turn a desert back into productive land while keeping the food plains tiles.

While it's a neat idea in theory to have a civilization that is centered around rivers, in its current form, I feel that it is far too restricting. There often aren't enough rivers, they're wasted by mountain, hill and city tiles, and I don't think they provide enough of a Malakim-specific bonus to warrant the vast areas of wasteland between them. I'll have to wait and see about the trade routes, but it doesn't seem like enough to offset the inherent food scarcity, or at least not in the early stages of a game.

Finally, the combat bonus is nice, but it doesn't help with the low plot yields. What good is it if you're outnumbered and outgunned?

Valkrionn
Mar 19, 2010, 04:52 PM
One thing I'd be open to is actually increasing the River bonuses for the Malakim; UB's giving hammers to river tiles, etc.

Schwarzbart
Mar 20, 2010, 02:09 AM
Are Bear restricted so that they cant enter desert? If so the clima change of the melakim prevent them from completing the Grand Menagery.

Abremms
Mar 20, 2010, 07:47 AM
I noticed that too, Schwarzbart. kinda annoying. i was playing as Austrin and had explorers all across the continent collecting animals, but my bears could never get to my capital because those dasterdly Malakim turned my entire western border into a desert! :lol:

Swinkscalibur
Mar 20, 2010, 09:08 AM
I noticed that too, Schwarzbart. kinda annoying. i was playing as Austrin and had explorers all across the continent collecting animals, but my bears could never get to my capital because those dasterdly Malakim turned my entire western border into a desert! :lol:

I believe this problem is fixed in the next version (In a way, indirectly). You will be able to get animals to your capital at least. Not sure if I'm allowed to say how, but Valk can fill you in if he wants to.

Valkrionn
Mar 20, 2010, 11:21 AM
It's fixed very poorly; When captured, animals have a one-time escape spell.

I'm going to allow promotions to add terrain/feature impassables, so that we can limit animals to 'natural' terrains, but have them open to going anywhere when captured.

Randomness
Mar 20, 2010, 11:34 AM
Please, please,please, merge FiRE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294422) (at your earliest convinience of course...

Valkrionn
Mar 20, 2010, 11:38 AM
Possible, but unlikely; I'd want to know EXACTLY how a system like that works. Far more likely to make my own.

inuyashasama
Mar 20, 2010, 04:10 PM
The revolutions bit sounds quite intriguing.

mickyd47
Mar 21, 2010, 02:42 PM
I think that the Frozen civ should only be summonable by civs that have the white hand as their state religion. Maybe even have another tech like the Infernals have to summon them. Problem is that I've noticed that the AI of civs seem to think its great idea to summon the Frozen. I doesn't make sense for certain civs to summon them, Lore wise and gameplay wise.

Valkrionn
Mar 21, 2010, 03:21 PM
I think that the Frozen civ should only be summonable by civs that have the white hand as their state religion. Maybe even have another tech like the Infernals have to summon them. Problem is that I've noticed that the AI of civs seem to think its great idea to summon the Frozen. I doesn't make sense for certain civs to summon them, Lore wise and gameplay wise.

Next version, whoever summons them gets several Ice Golems in their capital, so their will be a decent benefit to it; Making it a White Hand ritual could work as well, though.

mickyd47
Mar 21, 2010, 03:56 PM
I think that is a good idea and definitely to keep it within the white hand really doesn't fit many civs why would they bring back the thing they have escaped from unless they did worship the god of winter.

Rasta69
Mar 22, 2010, 04:58 AM
Just based off the new deep water graphics, as well just general awsomeness, how about a hero of Sphener , Mardos and Mithril Golem calibre for OO? The obvious option would be some kind of Cthulu beast, or perhaps "taming" the Leviathan, but I was thinking of something a bit different. How about a dreamer of immense skill. Thinking of the classic scary small child so beloved of Japanese horror.

Abremms
Mar 22, 2010, 02:46 PM
So i played a really fun game as Amurites last night, and i really like what you've done with them in RifE. blade dancers and spell swords are fantastic. and tower mages are crazy fun.

however, i think its a little too much for spell swords to be able to learn all the lvl2 spells. my stacks ended up being roaming fireball factories that stood two tiles away and bombarded cities then mopping up any defenders left with chanters.

i would like to see the spellsword unit limited to just spells that enhance its combat capabilities (body, enchantment, shadow, ect.) so i actually FIGHT with my champion UU.

also, tower mages with twincast COULD be too much with double mobility 2 fireballs... but damn are they ever fun. :lol:

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 08:53 AM
On the turn 4 a player had cast For The Horde
On the turn 13 Auric Ulvin had been killed

Valkrionn
Mar 23, 2010, 09:02 AM
For The Horde will operate completely differently next version.

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 09:24 AM
oceanic/forest/coast 1,1,2 (perfect world 2)

Valkrionn
Mar 23, 2010, 09:26 AM
I'm not sure what you mean here?

inuyashasama
Mar 23, 2010, 09:39 AM
A forest grew on the coast?

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 10:06 AM
Palisade (builds 50% faster with stone) add some forest-specific lumber resource? red wood, ironwood... treant corpses... and 'buildspeed bonuses'/'build available' upon types of terrain present in ring? (see MoM)

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 10:07 AM
A forest grew on the coast?
Exactly. I dont mind having +1 hammer on coast, just add some flavour to it)
Addendum: and that sea forest spreads much faster than upon land. On turn 175 it had taken over almost all revealed coastline and prevents kelp from expanding. Morale: don't fiddle with sea terrain types))
A side note on kelp: it does requires a certain conditions to be met to be available for harvesting, as such:
-advanced technology as in Alpha;
-aquatic species;
-water breathing spell
I cannot figure the reason for such a major thing as a new terrain type instead of good old ocean.
Kelp? bonus resource (non-improvable by boats) is an obvious solution. Besides, it'll make sense for kelp to be an unique resource (as pearls) for kthulhuanites.

I used RIFE 1.20 setup over which i had installed 1.22.2 flavour patch

Valkrionn
Mar 23, 2010, 10:26 AM
Palisade (builds 50% faster with stone) add some forest-specific lumber resource? red wood, ironwood... treant corpses... and 'buildspeed bonuses'/'build available' upon types of terrain present in ring? (see MoM)

Not types of terrain, but boosts from bonuses in the city's vicinity (workable radius) would be feasible. And I'm planning to add an Ironwood bonus, but as of now it's just used as an Archery weapon and would be rare.

Exactly. I dont mind having +1 hammer on coast, just add some flavour to it)
Addendum: and that sea forest spreads much faster than upon land.

I'm not sure how the hell a Forest spawned on a coast... Only features which are allowed there are Haunted Lands, Kelp, Kelp Forest (requires FoL, Ancient Forest analog), and Reefs.

Forest has the following terrains allowed:
<TerrainBooleans>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_MARSH</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
</TerrainBooleans>

Could you post a screenshot and the version of the mod you used? I'm assuming the latest, 1.22.2?

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 11:00 AM
I'm not sure how the hell a Forest spawned on a coast...
CIV4FeatureInfos.xml:
Under <Type>FEATURE_FOREST</Type>
i can see this:
<bNoCoast>0</bNoCoast>
And as the code you had shown lies under tag <OnUnitChangeTo/> there is a doubt these variables are for spamability (i see that file a first time:)). They rather seem to define into what described feature can become after its removal.
Or maybe all that is said above is nonsense and your new oceanic terrain type simply missing from many old definitions (that may be nonsense too:))

Not types of terrain, but boosts from bonuses in the city's vicinity (workable radius) would be feasible. And I'm planning to add an Ironwood bonus, but as of now it's just used as an Archery weapon and would be rare. What did i meant that if city has a workable forest plot within radius it would be feasible for that city to receive a small bonus on all 'wooden' production. Additional discouraging for maniacal tree-killers, along with those marvellous new camps for all.
And screenshot is above ^

Valkrionn
Mar 23, 2010, 11:40 AM
CIV4FeatureInfos.xml:
Under <Type>FEATURE_FOREST</Type>
i can see this:
<bNoCoast>0</bNoCoast>
And as the code you had shown lies under tag <OnUnitChangeTo/> there is a doubt these variables are for spamability (i see that file a first time:)). They rather seem to define into what described feature can become after its removal.
Or maybe all that is said above is nonsense and your new oceanic terrain type simply missing from many old definitions (that may be nonsense too:))

Adding a new terrain would have no effect on anything else; It's simply not supported. Also, those tags definitely define what terrains the feature is allowed to spawn on, it's placement in the file is simply coincidental.

The bNoCoast tag is just used for Oases and Ancient Forest, not jungle/new forest/any other features. I'm fairly sure it's used to make sure the feature can't border coast, not that it can't be placed on coastal terrain, but I'd have to check that.


What did i meant that if city has a workable forest plot within radius it would be feasible for that city to receive a small bonus on all 'wooden' production. Additional discouraging for maniacal tree-killers, along with those marvellous new camps for all.
And screenshot is above ^

Honestly, that's a bit much I think.

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 11:40 AM
Always wondered why jungles are -1 0 0... There is such an abundance of life, an edible life (though some resentful Sids may refuse to eat THAT) so jungle should provide +1 0 0 and a chance of -1 pop bcs some of that life loves to eat too...

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 02:32 PM
Noted bugs and other annoying things, that post shall be updated.
- Sailing pop-up on discovery window contains 3 links on whaling boats and boats pedia entry states 3 sailings as requirements
- Join City (great scientist) button is blank due to the new Disciples button art. Daresay that Nevendaar is not exactly Erebus and D&D, and old icons were prettier. Have a grim foresight next time something from Sims: Makin' Magic gets imported - both FfH and that are magic, right dudes?..
-Skeleton crew promotion available to every nation before discovery of necromancy - rename it for truth and sense's sake... On second thought, imo it adds nothing of interest to the game, and thus shall be discarded entirely

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 02:35 PM
Sea economy
Why pearls are available only to Lanun?
Fishing boats as perma-improvement are as awkward as Dune mod harvester imp-s. To occupy a whole city queye with workboat which will add 1 food to single square then disband - ...
So if this mod had set upon the path of being close to alpha - which economic system is best imo for all civ-clones - then make workboat a unit like supply crawler and/or sea formers - so it can (with some tech - why not the seafaring?) plant kelp and provide access to resource square by performing special action "to fish" template for which can be obtained from 'blockade'.

Valkrionn
Mar 23, 2010, 02:44 PM
Sailing pop-up on discovery window contains 3 links on whaling boats and boats pedia entry states 3 sailings as requirements

Because there are three Whaling Boat builds, Standard, Wyrmfisher, and Fishing Fleet.

Not sure why the tech is listed three times, but it'll be something similar.

Why pearls are available only to Lanun?

Because they are in FfH, and I see no reason to change it. It gives the Lanun a good boost for their preferred terrain.

Tholal
Mar 23, 2010, 03:23 PM
-Skeleton crew promotion available to every nation before discovery of necromancy - rename it for truth and sense's sake...

Skeleton crew is a term, not a literal description.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_crew

Valkrionn
Mar 23, 2010, 03:28 PM
Noted bugs and other annoying things, that post shall be updated.
- Sailing pop-up on discovery window contains 3 links on whaling boats and boats pedia entry states 3 sailings as requirements
- Join City (great scientist) button is blank due to the new Disciples button art. Daresay that Nevendaar is not exactly Erebus and D&D, and old icons were prettier. Have a grim foresight next time something from Sims: Makin' Magic gets imported - both FfH and that are magic, right dudes?..
-Skeleton crew promotion available to every nation before discovery of necromancy - rename it for truth and sense's sake...

You edited this one after I replied, I see.


Already answered that one.
Issue on my end; Already fixed in the team version. Honestly, the new specialists are far better than the old ones IMO.
Skeleton crew is NOT a crew of skeletons, it is a term meaning a crew shrunk down the bare minimum number of people. Which is exactly what the promotion is in reference to; Fewer crew, so you can have more passengers.

Abremms
Mar 23, 2010, 03:30 PM
-Skeleton crew promotion available to every nation before discovery of necromancy - rename it for truth and sense's sake...

:lol:

skeleton crew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_crew) refers to a ship running with the absolute minimum number of crewmen, thus allowing more room for passengers or cargo.

although a skeleton skeleton crew with necromancy COULD be awesome.

edit, didn't see posts on this on the next page :lol:

i stand by my request for a skeleton skeleton crew tho!

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 04:04 PM
Skeleton crew: indeed my mistake. In one of those numerous FfH mod-mod-mods there was a pedia entry that described something like "rustling sound of oars... bones..." - a literal skeletons and i assumed here the meaning is the same. Lol. Also i do understand the huge difference between my imo and the Valkrionn's IMO so there is no need to accent it - if something was brought in game it was by someone's IMO and i seek no argument, just stating my idea/request as feedback:)

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 04:18 PM
About Pearls, Lanun and Seafaring: the boost in early game is good, not good is absolyte monopoly on pearls which are highly needed by Curiotates and useful to others. Lanun got killed - pearls are lost for all, forever. (oh, yes - there is a dowsing... that thing i do ignore as an exploit: if you can see resource but do not possess technology to work with it...) So i propose to make Seafaring available for all, in side branch from optics, but still to give it to lanun at gamestart, rename pirate cove to "floating cottage"(;)) and make it dependable on seafaring tech, not lanun nation specific, reduce its stats to similar to land one but remove the distance between restriction. No need for fishing boats on empty squares.

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 04:29 PM
Because there are three Whaling Boat builds, Standard, Wyrmfisher, and Fishing Fleet.
Honestly, that's a bit much I think.

Not sure why the tech is listed three times, but it'll be something similar.
ONE pedia entry for whaling boats, THREE same 'sailing' techs as requirements. A bug.
Links on pop-up also were similar, with no kingfisher whatsoever.

To Valkrionn: i do advise you to change your title from "The Hamster King" to "The Hamster, Sid Meyer's Proud Heir" or maybe "... Legacy Upholder" as i sense much similarity in your personalities)))

Rainbowsand
Mar 23, 2010, 05:01 PM
Cast Sever Soul summons TWO souls. ROFL. Seriously. As much as you had laughed at my skeleton crew :D
For those theoretically (magic does not exist, after all... at least in some people's opinions) familiar with that technique - from high quality entry in Kael's pedia on Sever Soul or maybe one of Riddick's movies - it is quite clear that as man have on average a SINGLE soul that bound to his body - it cannot split in two (at least, i know no contradictory examples - ah, someone had taken "divided soul" as literally as i had taken "skelly crew" - what a delicious irony!), or travel far and/or long from body without subject being dead.

And those "soulshards" in game are strangely selective of squares they can move in - they cannot into some of those directly visible by owner's units.

Valkrionn
Mar 23, 2010, 06:13 PM
About Pearls, Lanun and Seafaring: the boost in early game is good, not good is absolyte monopoly on pearls which are highly needed by Curiotates and useful to others. Lanun got killed - pearls are lost for all, forever. (oh, yes - there is a dowsing... that thing i do ignore as an exploit: if you can see resource but do not possess technology to work with it...) So i propose to make Seafaring available for all, in side branch from optics, but still to give it to lanun at gamestart, rename pirate cove to "floating cottage"(;)) and make it dependable on seafaring tech, not lanun nation specific, reduce its stats to similar to land one but remove the distance between restriction. No need for fishing boats on empty squares.

On the Pearls: Not really a bad idea, just not sure it's one that I want to follow. Kurios don't 'badly need it', it just gives them two happy rather than one.

On Pirate Coves: To be blunt, no way in hell. ;)

Honestly, that's a bit much I think.

Actually, required for the way the units work. Fishing Boat is sacrificed; Wyrmfisher (Kuriotate flying UU, can only have one at a time and cannot explore) builds them instantly, no sacrifice, and the Lanun version builds without sacrifice but requires a few turns to do so.

Honestly, it's not an issue to me.


ONE pedia entry for whaling boats, THREE same 'sailing' techs as requirements. A bug.
Links on pop-up also were similar, with no kingfisher whatsoever.

I'm aware of what the issue is, I checked it after you made the post; I'll look into what's causing it, but honestly am not particularly worried about it.


To Valkrionn: i do advise you to change your title from "The Hamster King" to "The Hamster, Sid Meyer's Proud Heir" or maybe "... Legacy Upholder" as i sense much similarity in your personalities)))

I'm not sure if this is complimentary or an insult, but still, no. The Hamster King refers to a joke made by another modder, and I'm fond of it. ;)

Cast Sever Soul summons TWO souls. ROFL. Seriously. As much as you had laughed at my skeleton crew :D
For those theoretically (magic does not exist, after all... at least in some people's opinions) familiar with that technique - from high quality entry in Kael's pedia on Sever Soul or maybe one of Riddick's movies - it is quite clear that as man have on average a SINGLE soul that bound to his body - it cannot split in two (at least, i know no contradictory examples - ah, someone had taken "divided soul" as literally as i had taken "skelly crew" - what a delicious irony!), or travel far and/or long from body without subject being dead.

And those "soulshards" in game are strangely selective of squares they can move in - they cannot into some of those directly visible by owner's units.

To address the part that is NOT a bug first: Severed Souls are very selective in their movement. They can not set foot anywhere that would allow you to see territory you have not seen before; Can never be used for exploration.

As for summoning two of them... That sounds like a bug. What exactly were you doing to get that result?

Swinkscalibur
Mar 23, 2010, 06:14 PM
About Pearls, Lanun and Seafaring: the boost in early game is good, not good is absolyte monopoly on pearls which are highly needed by Curiotates and useful to others. Lanun got killed - pearls are lost for all, forever. (oh, yes - there is a dowsing... that thing i do ignore as an exploit: if you can see resource but do not possess technology to work with it...) So i propose to make Seafaring available for all, in side branch from optics, but still to give it to lanun at gamestart, rename pirate cove to "floating cottage"(;)) and make it dependable on seafaring tech, not lanun nation specific, reduce its stats to similar to land one but remove the distance between restriction. No need for fishing boats on empty squares.

I don't like the idea of allowing other civs to build pirate coves. I really like them as a lanun only improvement. Perhaps other civs could also have unique water improvements. I know the Jotnar already do, and I made one for the Legion of D'tesh. Perhaps there could be other flavorful improvements (or maybe they will come with the Bezeri). I could see seafaring available to other people but I don't think its necessary.

Rainbowsand
Mar 24, 2010, 04:00 AM
Severed Soul as of Kael design was made to be summoned as single entity, for one turn, without movement restrictions. It was thus much less effective at exploration than hawk (whose icon looks like raven btw:)) and technically doubled it's owner movement while somewhat expanding his tactical options. AND that way it was it had been good representation of "sever soul" ability within the game rules. Go see The Cronicles of Riddick 2004, the episode with Riddick/necromonger ruler duel or at least re-read pedia article on Divided Soul unit. There it is clearly stated that SS can be used for exploration.
As for two souls, it does states in description of skill "summons +2 of 'em" so that is rather a deliberate wrongdoing on behalf of devs.
Severed Souls are very selective in their movement. They can not set foot anywhere that would allow you to see territory you have not seen before; Can never be used for exploration. Another nice little lolz: a ghosts who walk on foot and are afraid of the unknown:)

Wodan
Mar 24, 2010, 04:02 AM
I don't like the idea of allowing other civs to build pirate coves. I really like them as a lanun only improvement. Perhaps other civs could also have unique water improvements.
I agree with that, FWIW.

I could see seafaring available to other people but I don't think its necessary.
Heck, "it's unnecessary" describes 75% of RifE. ;)

Personally, I like having civ-specific game mechanisms, but only where it makes sense. For Seafaring, it simply makes no sense that this secret "technology" can't be learned by other civs. The game is about creating your own history... there's no reason there couldn't be a seafaring elvish nation, for example (that's VERY Tolkien, actually). To give the Lanun a leg up, they get it for free. The research cost to other nations can be as big or little as desired.

Rainbowsand
Mar 24, 2010, 04:07 AM
I don't like the idea of allowing other civs to build pirate coves. I really like them as a lanun only improvement. Perhaps other civs could also have unique water improvements.
What i did proposed was not to allow others to build exactly Coves. That for-all "floating cottage" as i said should yield much less than Cove, because of its primarily fishing and harvesting occupation, not hoarding the booty and the loot, and be available for non-lanun in lategame. While yes, lanun can retain original pirate cove unchanged. Arrgh, am i explaining too unclear? That's second time i repeat myself!

Swinkscalibur
Mar 24, 2010, 04:46 AM
I think I understand. You basically want to add another water improvement other than just fishing boats everywhere. Something with moderate yield that comes later in the tech tree.

Valkrionn
Mar 24, 2010, 08:04 AM
Severed Soul as of Kael design was made to be summoned as single entity, for one turn, without movement restrictions. It was thus much less effective at exploration than hawk (whose icon looks like raven btw:)) and technically doubled it's owner movement while somewhat expanding his tactical options. AND that way it was it had been good representation of "sever soul" ability within the game rules. Go see The Cronicles of Riddick 2004, the episode with Riddick/necromonger ruler duel or at least re-read pedia article on Divided Soul unit. There it is clearly stated that SS can be used for exploration.
As for two souls, it does states in description of skill "summons +2 of 'em" so that is rather a deliberate wrongdoing on behalf of devs.
Another nice little lolz: a ghosts who walk on foot and are afraid of the unknown:)

Actually, as far as I can remember the unit was not designed by Kael; It was the result of a 'Unit Contest' and was implemented first in Fall Further; Which is the version of the unit I use. I have not changed it whatsoever from the FF base.

I agree with that, FWIW.


Heck, "it's unnecessary" describes 75% of RifE. ;)

Personally, I like having civ-specific game mechanisms, but only where it makes sense. For Seafaring, it simply makes no sense that this secret "technology" can't be learned by other civs. The game is about creating your own history... there's no reason there couldn't be a seafaring elvish nation, for example (that's VERY Tolkien, actually). To give the Lanun a leg up, they get it for free. The research cost to other nations can be as big or little as desired.

Starting to talk me around. :p Looking at the tech tree... How about off Sailing, as a dead end tech?

What i did proposed was not to allow others to build exactly Coves. That for-all "floating cottage" as i said should yield much less than Cove, because of its primarily fishing and harvesting occupation, not hoarding the booty and the loot, and be available for non-lanun in lategame. While yes, lanun can retain original pirate cove unchanged. Arrgh, am i explaining too unclear? That's second time i repeat myself!

I think I understand. You basically want to add another water improvement other than just fishing boats everywhere. Something with moderate yield that comes later in the tech tree.

Adding more water improvements is something that will happen, just not quite yet. Will be part of the Bezeri addition. ;)

Wodan
Mar 24, 2010, 08:33 AM
Starting to talk me around. :p Looking at the tech tree... How about off Sailing, as a dead end tech?
That makes sense to me!

Swinkscalibur
Mar 24, 2010, 08:41 AM
Starting to talk me around. :p Looking at the tech tree... How about off Sailing, as a dead end tech?

I think that is reasonable. Would it still give +1 :food: to coast and +1 :move: to ships? If so, I would give it a larger cost (at least the same as Optics, if not bigger) The only sad thing about this is that it would take away some of the uniqueness of the Lanun.

The other option is to add the +1 :food: and +1 :move: directly to the Lanun via there civ entry and a unique Lanun only promotion. Then make the new Seafaring Tech simply reveal pearls and perhaps allow a workboat upgrade (something like the Lanun's which isn't sacrificed to build improvements)

Adding more water improvements is something that will happen, just not quite yet. Will be part of the Bezeri addition. ;)

I called that. ;)

Valkrionn
Mar 24, 2010, 08:49 AM
I think that is reasonable. Would it still give +1 :food: to coast and +1 :move: to ships? If so, I would give it a larger cost (at least the same as Optics, if not bigger) The only sad thing about this is that it would take away some of the uniqueness of the Lanun.

I agree, as is it would reduce the Lanun uniqueness.


The other option is to add the +1 :food: and +1 :move: directly to the Lanun via there civ entry and a unique Lanun only promotion. Then make the new Seafaring Tech simply reveal pearls and perhaps allow a workboat upgrade (something like the Lanun's which isn't sacrificed to build improvements)

Which is why I'd be doing this. :p


I called that. ;)

Yes. Yes you did. :goodjob:

Milaga
Mar 24, 2010, 10:45 AM
Go see The Cronicles of Riddick 2004, the episode with Riddick/necromonger ruler duel or at least re-read pedia article on Divided Soul unit.

This game is not a chapter in The Chronicles of Riddick. Nor is it a chapter in Conan. If you say you do not like something in a game because it does not behave how something else behaves in an unrelated movie or book, your opinions will not be valued very highly.

Not by me anyway.

Valkrionn
Mar 24, 2010, 10:53 AM
This game is not a chapter in The Chronicles of Riddick. Nor is it a chapter in Conan. If you say you do not like something in a game because it does not behave how something else behaves in an unrelated movie or book, your opinions will not be valued very highly.

Not by me anyway.

I've explained that before; Opinions on what's in a game can be colored by non-canon material, but should not be a result of non-canon material.

The only Lore that truly matters to the mod, is that which is already in the mod or available on this forum. Nothing else. ;)

Seten
Mar 24, 2010, 11:56 AM
Love this mod, just wanted to propose a "minor" suggestion
Shouldn't Losha Valas be some sort of commander? after all in her lore she might know how to fight, but she was a great general first

Wodan
Mar 24, 2010, 01:45 PM
The graphic size for the Mobile Fortress seems way too big. It's bigger than most cities! If it was reduced about 50% it would still be bigger than citadels and would be in better proportion to everything else, I think.

Valkrionn
Mar 24, 2010, 01:55 PM
Love this mod, just wanted to propose a "minor" suggestion
Shouldn't Losha Valas be some sort of commander? after all in her lore she might know how to fight, but she was a great general first

Hmm... Not a bad idea, will think about it.

Wodan
Mar 24, 2010, 04:40 PM
Valk, I know you said you were reworking the Frozen, but fyi their capitol in my current game has a population size of 202. :wow:

Valkrionn
Mar 24, 2010, 04:44 PM
Valk, I know you said you were reworking the Frozen, but fyi their capitol in my current game has a population size of 202. :wow:

Yeah... After 100 turns of warfare, their capital is size 62 in the new version. The larger their cities, the fewer Frozen Souls they get now.

Elwist
Mar 24, 2010, 05:15 PM
apologies if this has already been addressed but I would really like an option to set my cities not to use specific specialists. The problem is that every time a city grows I have to go in and remove the healers that I don't want.

Leverkuhn
Mar 25, 2010, 12:21 AM
Definitely a problem. The governor has a basic but adequate idea of how to use the other specialists, but is clueless when it comes to healers. This is probably difficult or impossible to fix. As a human, I'd be happy if the governor never assigned them, because the situations in which they're useful are few and easily identifiable, but that would mean the ai never would make GHs. Still arguably better than the current situation in which 30% or more of the ai's gp are useless healers.

On the other hand, the increased importance of :health: in the next version (about which we still know little) may make these concerns more or less obsolete.

Wodan
Mar 25, 2010, 02:38 AM
Because of this, the AI makes TONS of Great Healers.

For a human, you can click the plus sign on your favored specialists. That forces the city governor to add ONLY those specialist types.

Valkrionn
Mar 25, 2010, 07:12 AM
Definitely a problem. The governor has a basic but adequate idea of how to use the other specialists, but is clueless when it comes to healers. This is probably difficult or impossible to fix. As a human, I'd be happy if the governor never assigned them, because the situations in which they're useful are few and easily identifiable, but that would mean the ai never would make GHs. Still arguably better than the current situation in which 30% or more of the ai's gp are useless healers.

On the other hand, the increased importance of :health: in the next version (about which we still know little) may make these concerns more or less obsolete.

^This. :p

Because of this, the AI makes TONS of Great Healers.

For a human, you can click the plus sign on your favored specialists. That forces the city governor to add ONLY those specialist types.

^And this. :goodjob:

Sarisin
Mar 25, 2010, 07:14 AM
Swell, also please do something about the bogus odds you can get a certain type of Great Person. I would say 95% of the time I get the GP with the LOWER percentage. The only way to guarantee you get a certain kind of GP is to have 100%. In my current game, I had 95% Priest, and 5% Merchant. Guess which one I got?;)

Not sure why this always seems off, but it messes with your strategy of having a city produce only one kind of GP.

Valkrionn
Mar 25, 2010, 07:38 AM
Swell, also please do something about the bogus odds you can get a certain type of Great Person. I would say 95% of the time I get the GP with the LOWER percentage. The only way to guarantee you get a certain kind of GP is to have 100%. In my current game, I had 95% Priest, and 5% Merchant. Guess which one I got?;)

Not sure why this always seems off, but it messes with your strategy of having a city produce only one kind of GP.

There's absolutely nothing I can do there; The odds it shows are the true odds, you're just getting screwed by the number generator. Which is much more memorable than having it give you the one you want, so you notice it more. :p

Wodan
Mar 25, 2010, 08:19 AM
The only way to guarantee you get a certain kind of GP is to have 100%.
This sentence didn't really help convey the example. :lol:

Evalis
Mar 25, 2010, 06:08 PM
Dunno if this was pointed out.. but the howitzer should NOT get the city attack modifier in addition to the siege weapon bonus promotion. +100% in a single promotion for a unit that has 7 base attack.. and can lob that attack at a range of 3 squares.. = insane in the membrane. Indeed... none of the mechanos bombardment units should get this, given that they have rather exhorbant attack ratings already. Just fyi.. the howitzer at level 4 would have 28 attack power versus cities.. The regular catapult would have 16... I'm pretty sure that nothing comes out during that game time that can protect against this assault.

Erm.. ignore this.. apparently they don't get that option.. it's the civilopedia entry that needs to be edited, not the actual unit.

Sarisin
Mar 25, 2010, 10:10 PM
There's absolutely nothing I can do there; The odds it shows are the true odds, you're just getting screwed by the number generator. Which is much more memorable than having it give you the one you want, so you notice it more. :p

Honestly, I do my very best to dedicate certain cities to generating a particular type of GP. For example, if I am going for an Altar Victory, I try to make sure only Priest pts accumulate in that city. Same for isolating Great Bard pts in a city if I am going for a Cultural victory. Well, try as hard as I can, a couple of pts. always seems to seep in to mess up this strategy. :cry:

What would you think of the idea of allowing the player to CHOOSE which GP he gets? Too radical of an idea? Then, the odds, specialized pts, etc. would not matter.

Valkrionn
Mar 25, 2010, 10:14 PM
Honestly, I do my very best to dedicate certain cities to generating a particular type of GP. For example, if I am going for an Altar Victory, I try to make sure only Priest pts accumulate in that city. Same for isolating Great Bard pts in a city if I am going for a Cultural victory. Well, try as hard as I can, a couple of pts. always seems to seep in to mess up this strategy. :cry:

What would you think of the idea of allowing the player to CHOOSE which GP he gets? Too radical of an idea? Then, the odds, specialized pts, etc. would not matter.

I think that would be entirely broken. Work a sage, but take an engineer instead for a Mastery building... Not a good idea at all IMO. We are thinking of having settled specialists provide GPP, so there is that at least.

Sarisin
Mar 25, 2010, 10:20 PM
I've mentioned before that I think there is just too much fleeing/withdrawing from battle in the game. I don't think the stated odds are correct. Some civs/units tend to flee/withdraw more and then you have those promotions that make it occur even often.

But, now I am seeing another problem with this.

Why do civs generate Great Commander pts when they flee/withdraw from battle? Just to illustrate, I am at war with Chislev and his Workers are fleeing at an alarming rate. Bang, up pops a Great Commander. A Great Commander is generated because Workers flee from battle?

I dunno, it just doesn't seem right to me. I suggest either:

a. Great Commanders pts are generated only when battles are won. I'm not sure, are they generated from losing battles too? But, definitely no pts for fleeing/withdrawing. As it is I believe some units get XP for that already.

or

b. Cut down on all the fleeing/withdrawing going on. One good move was to make it so units can withdraw only once. That helped cut down on units fleeing multiple times allover the place. However, IMO, there is still too much of it on that first attack.

Question: do Great Commander pts accumulate whether you flee from defending (they do) or also when you flee after an unsuccessful attack?

Or, maybe have a promotion that MAKES units stay and fight and doesn't them flee/withdraw.

Valkrionn
Mar 25, 2010, 11:10 PM
I've mentioned before that I think there is just too much fleeing/withdrawing from battle in the game. I don't think the stated odds are correct. Some civs/units tend to flee/withdraw more and then you have those promotions that make it occur even often.

The stated odds are entirely correct (Statistics don't cooperate with people; We're all more likely to notice outliers than the average), trust me. I've checked. :p

Don't worry about amount of fleeing though, as we have plans for that. :mischief:


But, now I am seeing another problem with this.

Why do civs generate Great Commander pts when they flee/withdraw from battle? Just to illustrate, I am at war with Chislev and his Workers are fleeing at an alarming rate. Bang, up pops a Great Commander. A Great Commander is generated because Workers flee from battle?

Hmm... That is an issue, but it's a simple fix. Both attacking and defending units gain 1 xp when a withdrawal occurs; Currently returns true for bFromCombat, can make that a false and prevent it from affecting GC points.


I dunno, it just doesn't seem right to me. I suggest either:

a. Great Commanders pts are generated only when battles are won. I'm not sure, are they generated from losing battles too? But, definitely no pts for fleeing/withdrawing. As it is I believe some units get XP for that already.

Commander points are gained whenever xp is gained from combat; So not from loss, no. At least not for you.

Anyway, consider that one done.


b. Cut down on all the fleeing/withdrawing going on. One good move was to make it so units can withdraw only once. That helped cut down on units fleeing multiple times allover the place. However, IMO, there is still too much of it on that first attack.

This is being done as well, though the limit to withdrawal is being done away with. No hard limit, instead other effects are coming in; We have plans. ;)


Question: do Great Commander pts accumulate whether you flee from defending (they do) or also when you flee after an unsuccessful attack?

Currently any time you flee.

Wodan
Mar 26, 2010, 02:59 AM
Hmm... That is an issue, but it's a simple fix. Both attacking and defending units gain 1 xp when a withdrawal occurs; Currently returns true for bFromCombat, can make that a false and prevent it from affecting GC points. Currently any time you flee.
I would suggest that we keep both XP and GC points when an enemy flees from you. (It makes sense that the one fleeing shouldn't get anything, but the one who stuck it out should get something.)

Grey Fox
Mar 26, 2010, 03:05 AM
Fleeing a battle gives XP, you learn much from your defeats, if you can survive them.
Not gaining xp from a successful withdrawal would remove some of the flavor of mounted units.

Honor
Mar 26, 2010, 03:12 AM
I think that would be entirely broken. Work a sage, but take an engineer instead for a Mastery building... Not a good idea at all IMO. We are thinking of having settled specialists provide GPP, so there is that at least.

Actually you could make it so that the player can choose not to accummulate any GPP outside the ones s/he selects.

Say a city gets +4 Priest GPP, +3 Sage GPP and +2 Bard GPP. If the player had the option to ignore the Sage and Bard GPP and only acummulate +4 Priest GPP in that city, it wouldn't be broken at all imho.

Kraydak
Mar 26, 2010, 04:32 AM
I think that would be entirely broken. Work a sage, but take an engineer instead for a Mastery building... Not a good idea at all IMO. We are thinking of having settled specialists provide GPP, so there is that at least.

I would like it if the unused GPP were held over as phantom points to counted to the probabilities for the next GP. This would make it much easier to get small numbers of key GP types, while making it harder to generate masses of a single type.

I think having settled specialists provide GPP should be Civic specific. Settled GPriests giving priest points in theocracy would make sense to me.

GIR
Mar 26, 2010, 05:48 AM
I would like it if the unused GPP were held over as phantom points to counted to the probabilities for the next GP. This would make it much easier to get small numbers of key GP types, while making it harder to generate masses of a single type.

I think having settled specialists provide GPP should be Civic specific. Settled GPriests giving priest points in theocracy would make sense to me.

i also think the civ4 gpp system is some kind of unfair and would love to see a better system...
as for now i just reload when i think the game betrayed me and it didn't gave me the gp i was aiming for (and wasted all my specialists micro management).

Wodan
Mar 26, 2010, 05:49 AM
I know it's reworked, but more feedback:

-- the combination of strong early animals plus the ability to attack across borders nuked 2 of my cities before turn 50. One was a boar and one a hippogriff.

-- the chaos flare ruin result / mutation resulted in an incredibly strong warrior for me, on about turn 10. He got about 10 promotions and was able to conquer the Scions (2 cities, 7 velites, and 1 band) all by himself.

Sarisin
Mar 26, 2010, 08:18 AM
Fleeing a battle gives XP, you learn much from your defeats, if you can survive them.
Not gaining xp from a successful withdrawal would remove some of the flavor of mounted units.

Maybe that is true, but wouldn't you say the attacking unit should gain XP as well from the battle. As it is now, I think the fleeing unit gets XP, while the unit that caused the fleeing gets zippo.

Also, I think if you attack and your unit withdraws from the battle, you do NOT get any XP.

I just think it is inconsistent now. Either give the XP to both units (attacker and defender) or neither.

Sarisin
Mar 26, 2010, 08:21 AM
i also think the civ4 gpp system is some kind of unfair and would love to see a better system...
as for now i just reload when i think the game betrayed me and it didn't gave me the gp i was aiming for (and wasted all my specialists micro management).

You're right in that this 'cheat' does seem to work...but, IMO you shouldn't have to use it. I find if you save/reload, you will most of the time get the GP with the highest odds rather than the one with lower(est) odds that you did receive.

It really doesn't look like a random number generator to me, but I suppose it is. ;)

Sarisin
Mar 26, 2010, 08:33 AM
The stated odds are entirely correct (Statistics don't cooperate with people; We're all more likely to notice outliers than the average), trust me. I've checked. :p
Don't worry about amount of fleeing though, as we have plans for that. :mischief:
Hmm... That is an issue, but it's a simple fix. Both attacking and defending units gain 1 xp when a withdrawal occurs; Currently returns true for bFromCombat, can make that a false and prevent it from affecting GC points.
Commander points are gained whenever xp is gained from combat; So not from loss, no. At least not for you.
Anyway, consider that one done.
This is being done as well, though the limit to withdrawal is being done away with. No hard limit, instead other effects are coming in; We have plans. ;)
Currently any time you flee.

Thank you for your detailed response. I guess this is yet another one where we will have to hold on and see how this works out in the new version.

However, I get back to my original example - Workers.

V, I really think their fleeing rate is TOO high. I really think it is somewhere around 75%. Maybe you are right on the other units without the promotion.

And, again, I just don't see fleeing Workers generating Great Commander pts.

Also, as I mentioned in my other post, I don't think attacking units gain any XP when a unit flees. I have to test that again, though. Often it is annoying when I attack a unit with my 99.9% odds of killing that unit, only to see it flee into a city or a stack...and, even worse when I get 3 turns of damage to heal. But, hey, sh*t happens and you recognize it as a part of the game.

I think there should be a correlation between your chances of winning the battle and the amount of damage you take. For example, that barb Goblin should not cause any damage to your Level 15 Beastmaster...but it often does. When you are walking down the street and step on a bug you don't take on any damage (except maybe a messy shoe). Oh well, I suppose it is the ole Spearman vs. Tank Syndrome. :)

Valkrionn
Mar 26, 2010, 10:31 AM
Actually you could make it so that the player can choose not to accummulate any GPP outside the ones s/he selects.

Say a city gets +4 Priest GPP, +3 Sage GPP and +2 Bard GPP. If the player had the option to ignore the Sage and Bard GPP and only acummulate +4 Priest GPP in that city, it wouldn't be broken at all imho.

I still believe it would be entirely broken; It's the same thing. It just takes longer.

Valkrionn
Mar 26, 2010, 10:36 AM
Maybe that is true, but wouldn't you say the attacking unit should gain XP as well from the battle. As it is now, I think the fleeing unit gets XP, while the unit that caused the fleeing gets zippo.

Also, I think if you attack and your unit withdraws from the battle, you do NOT get any XP.

I just think it is inconsistent now. Either give the XP to both units (attacker and defender) or neither.

It's not inconsistent at all; Both units gain 1 xp in RifE. It's something I imported from Orbis when I imported the "One withdrawal a turn" thing.

Thank you for your detailed response. I guess this is yet another one where we will have to hold on and see how this works out in the new version.

However, I get back to my original example - Workers.

V, I really think their fleeing rate is TOO high. I really think it is somewhere around 75%. Maybe you are right on the other units without the promotion.

And, again, I just don't see fleeing Workers generating Great Commander pts.

Also, as I mentioned in my other post, I don't think attacking units gain any XP when a unit flees. I have to test that again, though. Often it is annoying when I attack a unit with my 99.9% odds of killing that unit, only to see it flee into a city or a stack...and, even worse when I get 3 turns of damage to heal. But, hey, sh*t happens and you recognize it as a part of the game.

I think there should be a correlation between your chances of winning the battle and the amount of damage you take. For example, that barb Goblin should not cause any damage to your Level 15 Beastmaster...but it often does. When you are walking down the street and step on a bug you don't take on any damage (except maybe a messy shoe). Oh well, I suppose it is the ole Spearman vs. Tank Syndrome. :)

I agree with you, workers should not be withdrawing that often; But again, we've already got some new worker promotions. PromotionBuilds was designed for a reason. :p

As for the last point... To do anything like that would completely destroy the ability to wear down a strong unit with a horde of weak ones, so it's not something we can do.

Evalis
Mar 26, 2010, 03:44 PM
Is it possible to remove the event that poisions city population from the D'teshi? I noticed that I was constantly getting this event due to their wastelands everywhere tiles, and it seriously hinders any means of expansion given how rare slaves are at the beginning of the game. Plus um.. I thought they were undead... why are they getting poisoned?

Valkrionn
Mar 26, 2010, 03:46 PM
Is it possible to remove the event that poisions city population from the D'teshi? I noticed that I was constantly getting this event due to their wastelands everywhere tiles, and it seriously hinders any means of expansion given how rare slaves are at the beginning of the game. Plus um.. I thought they were undead... why are they getting poisoned?

Yes, it will be blocked for them. Or have a unique option added. Just haven't gotten to it yet. ;)

Evalis
Mar 26, 2010, 09:34 PM
Why do forts not count as cities for combat purposes? It seems like it would be a decent defense vs assassin hordes (which are already the counter to pretty much everything)

Swinkscalibur
Mar 26, 2010, 10:25 PM
I believe Citadels do. Just not forts or castles.

Wodan
Mar 27, 2010, 04:21 AM
Why do forts not count as cities for combat purposes? It seems like it would be a decent defense vs assassin hordes (which are already the counter to pretty much everything)
I discovered Monks the game before last. I recall when I first got into FFH I was comparing stats etc and wondering what the good Monks were. But now with Guardsman, and getting stuck next to... I dunno it was Austrin or someone... facing those Assassin hordes, I was like: :hmm: Oh! Monks. :w00t:

Valkrionn
Mar 27, 2010, 09:47 AM
I discovered Monks the game before last. I recall when I first got into FFH I was comparing stats etc and wondering what the good Monks were. But now with Guardsman, and getting stuck next to... I dunno it was Austrin or someone... facing those Assassin hordes, I was like: :hmm: Oh! Monks. :w00t:

Also, monks get stronger as they level; Can get up to 2affinity for Spirit mana.

Rainbowsand
Mar 27, 2010, 11:13 AM
If nerfed Scorch was added to Lightbringers, then it should be removed from the workers, no?

Valkrionn
Mar 27, 2010, 11:21 AM
It already has been in the team version. In fact, Bedouin Workers are gone completely; Added PromotionBuilds, so the need for a unique worker (Bedouin Sit build order) is gone, as are Caravan Routes; Malakim trade over desert without roads now.

Rainbowsand
Mar 27, 2010, 11:50 AM
I take it that "team version" either not yet released or i can't find it. Hints please?

black_imperator
Mar 27, 2010, 11:53 AM
not released yet, indeed.
By the way Valkrionn, i think it would be good to list the bugs corrected in the team version so that people stop reporting them over and over .

Valkrionn
Mar 27, 2010, 11:59 AM
not released yet, indeed.
By the way Valkrionn, i think it would be good to list the bugs corrected in the team version so that people stop reporting them over and over .

The issue with that is there are so many I can't list them without comparing the files to the 1.22.2 version, which would be a complete pain in the ass. Would prefer to just be able to say "Already fixed". :p

Wodan
Mar 27, 2010, 03:16 PM
You know the alignment color in the civ list on bottom right of the screen? It is still yellow-gray-red for the good-evil axis, but doesn't reflect the law-chaos axis at all.

Actually, if it gave the full alignment (e.g., "Lawful Neutral") then we could color the first word based on the law-chaos axis, and give a different color to the second word based on the good-evil axis.

Valkrionn
Mar 27, 2010, 04:00 PM
You know the alignment color in the civ list on bottom right of the screen? It is still yellow-gray-red for the good-evil axis, but doesn't reflect the law-chaos axis at all.

Actually, if it gave the full alignment (e.g., "Lawful Neutral") then we could color the first word based on the law-chaos axis, and give a different color to the second word based on the good-evil axis.

That's how I did it originally; People complained that it was too long. :p

Can easily change it based on both alignments, though, to whatever color we want.

Wodan
Mar 27, 2010, 04:58 PM
That's how I did it originally; People complained that it was too long. :p
fark "people". ;)

j/k. Seriously, why not just abbreviate. LG, CG, NE, etc. [/QUOTE]

Valkrionn
Mar 27, 2010, 05:00 PM
fark "people". ;)

j/k. Seriously, why not just abbreviate. LG, CG, NE, etc. [/QUOTE]

Because that one I dislike. :p

Again, can easily change the color even without displaying the full alignment.

Opera
Mar 27, 2010, 05:04 PM
Or icons?

Grey Fox
Mar 27, 2010, 05:15 PM
not released yet, indeed.
By the way Valkrionn, i think it would be good to list the bugs corrected in the team version so that people stop reporting them over and over .
You volunteer? :P

Divvu
Mar 27, 2010, 06:43 PM
That's how I did it originally; People complained that it was too long. :p


I never complained about it, but actually the size of the score tab has increased so much that selecting the last 3-4 units in the first row is a chore... Any chance you could place it just a bit higher? :)

Wodan
Mar 28, 2010, 01:45 PM
It would be nice to have a use for Great Commanders besides fighting. There are plenty of strategies which make little to no use of GCs. Yet, when you get attacked, you'll generate GCs regardless. Once you have two or three good ones, the extras are a waste of unit maintenance (in those strategies).

GCs can't even be used on interior city garrison duty, can they?

If nothing else, maybe add the promotion which gives free maintanance?

Valkrionn
Mar 28, 2010, 02:16 PM
It would be nice to have a use for Great Commanders besides fighting. There are plenty of strategies which make little to no use of GCs. Yet, when you get attacked, you'll generate GCs regardless. Once you have two or three good ones, the extras are a waste of unit maintenance (in those strategies).

GCs can't even be used on interior city garrison duty, can they?

If nothing else, maybe add the promotion which gives free maintanance?

I'm considering allowing them to be settled; Would think a free xp, honestly, but that might be too much.

Almagafor
Mar 28, 2010, 09:26 PM
How about instead of settling they get burnt to make a few special buildings similar to academies, would also probably be easier to implement.

Valkrionn
Mar 28, 2010, 09:32 PM
How about instead of settling they get burnt to make a few special buildings similar to academies, would also probably be easier to implement.

Actually, settling it requires about 30 seconds of xml work; Creating buildings would require a lot longer, as you need art/effects/etc. :p

Probably better in the long run; Regardless of which method I go with (and I'd already thought of the buildings, Orbis has some good ones), it won't be in for a little while. More pressing matters first. :lol:

Evalis
Mar 28, 2010, 10:48 PM
So.. I'm curious if there can be an option included that enhances the chances that a nation will vassalize to yours (something similiar to the three kingdoms). This is largely being commented on because of how few games I've actually finished on RiFE (or FF) and that those nations that are horribly weak actually have something to gain from vassalizing to a more powerful (and closer) neighbor. The trouble is that every nation needs to be capitulated before they surrender, which means by this point they have zero hope of ever breaking away, since you've likely just dominated their empire.

Wodan
Mar 29, 2010, 03:17 AM
I'm considering allowing them to be settled; Would think a free xp, honestly, but that might be too much.
Lightbulb military techs
Settle for hammers and gold, maybe free XP to new units
Discount off empire maintenance
"Retire" to a plantation (creates a plantation and cotton or dye in a tile)

I can think up some more if you want.

Bugguts
Mar 29, 2010, 05:25 PM
I'm playing on a Huge Pangea and shortly after meeting my first civ it's down to just three of us left. I think those darn Mino's and Griff's are a little overpowered. So

1- Have a setting of allowing baddies, but fewer? or not allowed to cross cultural borders? Or something?

2- Meanwhile, any ideas on what setting to turn off? are they animals or barbarians?

admtanaka
Mar 29, 2010, 05:48 PM
Are there any plans to merge Orbis's music pack with Rife? It's such a big improvement over the standard tracks that I think it's worth considering.

Valkrionn
Mar 29, 2010, 06:04 PM
I'm playing on a Huge Pangea and shortly after meeting my first civ it's down to just three of us left. I think those darn Mino's and Griff's are a little overpowered. So

1- Have a setting of allowing baddies, but fewer? or not allowed to cross cultural borders? Or something?

2- Meanwhile, any ideas on what setting to turn off? are they animals or barbarians?

As I've outlined multiple times, there will be an entirely new barb system next version.

Are there any plans to merge Orbis's music pack with Rife? It's such a big improvement over the standard tracks that I think it's worth considering.

Yes, the next version will (again) be a full install; By doing this, we can have all music (and the FfH media pack) in a second download, and will include the Orbis music. Already have his permission.

Evalis
Mar 30, 2010, 09:10 AM
Certain racial buildings require x number of buildings to already be present in the world. Is it possible to have this adjustable by map size? I think the great library is already set up this way.. but I'm not certain. In any case it can be next to impossible to get some of the elohim buildings up without already winning the game. (ei +50% land mass)

Valkrionn
Mar 30, 2010, 11:47 AM
None of the buildings like that are scaled to world size, but I could try and get that working; No promises, though. ;)

Bioroid
Apr 01, 2010, 01:47 PM
First I would like to say huge thank you to Valkrionn for such wonderful work. I liked the atmosphere of your mod alot. It's alive. And it's quite unique and different in roots then FFH 2. Sorry if i repeat something that was allready written it the forum. I'm new here and there was no time to read everyrhing.

Pluses.
I liked the idea of comanders who can costruct forts which then become citadels, idea that comandor is a defender himself and can lead couple of units to victory. Also idea with smith master et al is very good. If one specializez only on recon units than he should built only outfit for them and that's it. If one wants also melee units than one should spend one more ingeneer. For different guilds, music and cool phantasy pictures also big thanks.

Minuses.
Griffins is absolute disbalans. There was one vild Griffin with 18 str and 3 moves and I easely subdled him with my Alazkan. Alazkan is a cheating hero. To say litteraly, every single turn he produce a new strong hero (copy of himself). Two turns was anough to subdle even 18 strength 10th level griffin. And than with this griffin very quickly on barbarians I got two more such griffins. Only one lvl 10 griffin with combat V, moves, orthus axe and cannibalism at turn 180 was anough to concver entire world just with this single unit. Actually he was even more powerfull than Acheron. I simply deleted him because it was not interesting to play with such disbalance at all.

Homes, villages, towns are overpowered by giving them also hammers. Thing about it please. Just one extra hammer is anough. Other is when you star a game with a quick start in widdle ages you can purchase dwarven mines even if you are not a dwarf. I think this is a bug.

______________
I play with Svaltafar. Ansient forests+towns+Alazkan The Assasin+Sinister Shadows+kidnap of great persons+4 Liches with mind III and Prince difficulty (4-5 sities) at the turn of 250-300 I have the research 1000+ beakers. And before turh 300 I win Conquest wiktory because everyone in the map is my vassal. Usually i play balanced map normal size +low sea+10 players+ agressive AI because computer doesn't want to go into fight.

Bioroid
Apr 01, 2010, 01:52 PM
First I would like to say huge thank you to Valkrionn for such wonderful work. I liked the atmosphere of your mod alot. It's alive. And it's quite unique and different in roots then FFH 2. Sorry if i repeat something that was allready written it the forum. I'm new here and there was no time to read everyrhing.

Pluses.
I liked the idea of comanders who can costruct forts which then become citadels, idea that comandor is a defender himself and can lead couple of units to victory. Also idea with smith master et al is very good. If one specializez only on recon units than he should built only outfit for them and that's it. If one wants also melee units than one should spend one more ingeneer. For different guilds, music and cool phantasy pictures also big thanks.

Minuses.
Griffins is absolute disbalans. There was one vild Griffin with 18 str and 3 moves and I easely subdled him with my Alazkan. Alazkan is a cheating hero. To say litteraly, every single turn he produce a new strong hero (copy of himself). Two turns was anough to subdle even 18 strength 10th level griffin. And than with this griffin very quickly on barbarians I got two more such griffins. Only one lvl 10 griffin with combat V, moves, orthus axe and cannibalism at turn 180 was anough to concver entire world just with this single unit. Actually he was even more powerfull than Acheron. I simply deleted him because it was not interesting to play with such disbalance at all.

Homes, villages, towns are overpowered by giving them also hammers. Thing about it please. Just one extra hammer is anough. Other is when you star a game with a quick start in widdle ages you can purchase dwarven mines even if you are not a dwarf. I think this is a bug.

______________
I play with Svaltafar. Ansient forests+towns+Alazkan The Assasin+Sinister Shadows+kidnap of great persons+4 Liches with mind III and Prince difficulty (4-5 sities) at the turn of 250-300 I have the research 1000+ beakers. And before turh 300 I win Conquest wiktory because everyone in the map is my vassal. Usually i play balanced map normal size +low sea+10 players+ agressive AI because computer doesn't want to go into fight.

Valkrionn
Apr 01, 2010, 02:11 PM
First I would like to say huge thank you to Valkrionn for such wonderful work. I liked the atmosphere of your mod alot. It's alive. And it's quite unique and different in roots then FFH 2. Sorry if i repeat something that was allready written it the forum. I'm new here and there was no time to read everyrhing.

Pluses.
I liked the idea of comanders who can costruct forts which then become citadels, idea that comandor is a defender himself and can lead couple of units to victory. Also idea with smith master et al is very good. If one specializez only on recon units than he should built only outfit for them and that's it. If one wants also melee units than one should spend one more ingeneer. For different guilds, music and cool phantasy pictures also big thanks.

Glad you like it. ;)

The work is not just my own, though; We're based on the work of both the FfH team and the FF team, along with quite a bit of material from Orbis. I'm also just the head of the team; There are five members at this point, myself, Vermicious Knid, Grey Fox, KillerClowns, and Opera. :goodjob:


Minuses.
Griffins is absolute disbalans. There was one vild Griffin with 18 str and 3 moves and I easely subdled him with my Alazkan. Alazkan is a cheating hero. To say litteraly, every single turn he produce a new strong hero (copy of himself). Two turns was anough to subdle even 18 strength 10th level griffin. And than with this griffin very quickly on barbarians I got two more such griffins. Only one lvl 10 griffin with combat V, moves, orthus axe and cannibalism at turn 180 was anough to concver entire world just with this single unit. Actually he was even more powerfull than Acheron. I simply deleted him because it was not interesting to play with such disbalance at all.

Animals and Barbs are going to be completely different next version. ;)


Homes, villages, towns are overpowered by giving them also hammers. Thing about it please. Just one extra hammer is anough. Other is when you star a game with a quick start in widdle ages you can purchase dwarven mines even if you are not a dwarf. I think this is a bug.

As are improvements.

The Dwarven Mine issue is that I neglected to put the advanced start cost to -1. :lol:

hyface
Apr 01, 2010, 10:33 PM
The barbs in this game are ridiculous.

One game ended in <100 turns due to a very angry lvl6 18 str griffon. :mad: Funnily enough ~5 civs died before I did.. I suspect I wasn't the first to be crushed by it in that game. :lol:

Rainbowsand
Apr 02, 2010, 12:57 AM
Have read about jotnar fort->city conversion - great! Lead me to the fork of ideas to be incorporated for all nations:
First: when the castle is about to upgrade into a citadel you get a case pop-up to choose whether it to become that or a new settlement with walls;
Second:to add a city pop limit for building walls about 8, and to add a new building line of fort->castle->citadel giving all the bonuses of improvements in addition to those of the walls and palisade (which i somewhere within Orbis proposed to rename/remodel into a 'stake perimeter' to flavourify its coexistence with walls) and auto-appearing within the settlement when you build new city on top of the existing fort/castle/citadel (as to represent quite realistic tendency of cities forming around the safety of castles)- to negate possible balance/AI tweaks issues and make stake claiming with forts more viable.

And yet another idea about city siege: it is almost impossible within classic Sid's ruleset (my opinion on which you probably already know:)) to emulate land blockade, because it would require to place about 20 units on each workable square and reinforce stacks in 8 adjacent squares to protect them from sallies. So the usual situation with city siege is that the mighty Stack of Doom barely inadequate for direct assault looms over and on adjacent unoccupied squares farmers and miners unperturbed continue their work. A Sid-specific code of honour?:D Away with demagogics, approximate formula is that:
For each 2 hostile units within city work radius minus the number of city garrison (units with movespeed more than 1 counting as two) a random plot (starting with those closest to hostile stack(s)) is rendered unworkable which should represent besieging forces raiding the countryside and encircling settlement with their camps and fortifications. Then that 'food storage' stuff shall at last find its use in addition to being a growth meter. Which imo is quite stupid: in MoM growth is a separate race-based value, with food serving as a cap for total pop and (not quite certain)modifier.

Rainbowsand
Apr 02, 2010, 01:12 AM
And if all of you modders haven't already read this (http://www.machinations.org/mom/downloads.php) then i aggressively suggest for all of you to do this ASAP, for the good of all.

Milaga
Apr 02, 2010, 01:50 AM
The barbs in this game are ridiculous.

One game ended in <100 turns due to a very angry lvl6 18 str griffon. :mad: Funnily enough ~5 civs died before I did.. I suspect I wasn't the first to be crushed by it in that game. :lol:

There are problems with the growth of the animals in the game. This has been acknowledged (and will be corrected in the next version) by the RiFE team.

This problem bothered me too. As much as I can tell from Valkrionn's numerous cryptic posts, the next release of RiFE seems to be quite ambitious, so these simple problems might not be addressed for a while. I did a few passes on the animals and I came up with a mini-mod that lowers the strengths and first strikes of animal units. While I highly recommend playing with this mini-mod, this doesn't completely neuter the animals so if they really are upsetting you just turn off animals altogether.

Weaker Minotaurs and Cyklops are part of the unicorn- uh, I mean, flavor-mod.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=357891

Milaga
Apr 02, 2010, 01:53 AM
And if all of you modders haven't already read this (http://www.machinations.org/mom/downloads.php) then i aggressively suggest for all of you to do this ASAP, for the good of all.

As a skeptic, I clicked the link and was presented with a list of PDF files regarding Might and Magic.

Why is it so important that modders read this? Your message is not very clear.

I did not bother to click through to these PDFs, which I may have in fact read before, but I can't be bothered to read again without context.

Valkrionn
Apr 02, 2010, 02:07 AM
The barbs in this game are ridiculous.

One game ended in <100 turns due to a very angry lvl6 18 str griffon. :mad: Funnily enough ~5 civs died before I did.. I suspect I wasn't the first to be crushed by it in that game. :lol:

Yeah, I'm in the middle of implementing a new barb system. Just have to find time in between papers to finish it. Then a few smaller projects, and then we should be able to release 1.3. ;)

Have read about jotnar fort->city conversion - great! Lead me to the fork of ideas to be incorporated for all nations:
First: when the castle is about to upgrade into a citadel you get a case pop-up to choose whether it to become that or a new settlement with walls;
Second:to add a city pop limit for building walls about 8, and to add a new building line of fort->castle->citadel giving all the bonuses of improvements in addition to those of the walls and palisade (which i somewhere within Orbis proposed to rename/remodel into a 'stake perimeter' to flavourify its coexistence with walls) and auto-appearing within the settlement when you build new city on top of the existing fort/castle/citadel (as to represent quite realistic tendency of cities forming around the safety of castles)- to negate possible balance/AI tweaks issues and make stake claiming with forts more viable.

To be blunt: No. The mechanic is used by the Jotnar, the Clan (Kindof; Their forts create Barb cities, currently forced next version optional), the Orcish Barbs (Same method as Clan, guaranteed to happen eventually next version; More barb cities), and eventually the Kuriotates. All 4 (3, really) use it in different ways, so they coexist well. IMO expanding it would remove the flavor they each have for it.


And yet another idea about city siege: it is almost impossible within classic Sid's ruleset (my opinion on which you probably already know:)) to emulate land blockade, because it would require to place about 20 units on each workable square and reinforce stacks in 8 adjacent squares to protect them from sallies. So the usual situation with city siege is that the mighty Stack of Doom barely inadequate for direct assault looms over and on adjacent unoccupied squares farmers and miners unperturbed continue their work. A Sid-specific code of honour?:D Away with demagogics, approximate formula is that:
For each 2 hostile units within city work radius minus the number of city garrison (units with movespeed more than 1 counting as two) a random plot (starting with those closest to hostile stack(s)) is rendered unworkable which should represent besieging forces raiding the countryside and encircling settlement with their camps and fortifications. Then that 'food storage' stuff shall at last find its use in addition to being a growth meter. Which imo is quite stupid: in MoM growth is a separate race-based value, with food serving as a cap for total pop and (not quite certain)modifier.

Again, no. :p

Honestly, I even agree with your opinion on SoD; Main reason I'm excited for Civ5 is their removal, and the strategic effect of the one unit per tile rule. However, it is a fact that Civ4 is designed for SoD combat, and I am not willing to commit myself to the massive amount of time and effort required to change that.

Your proposed mechanic, IMO at least, is entirely arbitrary and gamey. Not something I would want to put in.

Also: I've honestly not played MoM, and frankly do not care how they did things. This is not MoM, it is not based on MoM, and while both are fantasy games, the similarities should end there. I have no interest in cloning work from another game.

And if all of you modders haven't already read this (http://www.machinations.org/mom/downloads.php) then i aggressively suggest for all of you to do this ASAP, for the good of all.

Read my last comment on your other post. ;)

Valkrionn
Apr 02, 2010, 02:12 AM
There are problems with the growth of the animals in the game. This has been acknowledged (and will be corrected in the next version) by the RiFE team.

This problem bothered me too. As much as I can tell from Valkrionn's numerous cryptic posts, the next release of RiFE seems to be quite ambitious, so these simple problems might not be addressed for a while. I did a few passes on the animals and I came up with a mini-mod that lowers the strengths and first strikes of animal units. While I highly recommend playing with this mini-mod, this doesn't completely neuter the animals so if they really are upsetting you just turn off animals altogether.

Weaker Minotaurs and Cyklops are part of the unicorn- uh, I mean, flavor-mod.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=357891

Hey hey, Flavor Patch was planned before the Princess Rule project was started. :p

Also, though I have mentioned it I never really announced it... The team has decided to break the next version into multiple patches, to get the content out faster. 1.3 is basically just waiting on the barb system; Unfortunately, I have several papers to write at the moment so haven't had time to finish it. It's around halfway done currently; Most DLL work is in, but the xml is unstarted.

As a skeptic, I clicked the link and was presented with a list of PDF files regarding Might and Magic.

Why is it so important that modders read this? Your message is not very clear.

I did not bother to click through to these PDFs, which I may have in fact read before, but I can't be bothered to read again without context.

Because everyone has to read info from the absolutely authoritative in every way Master of Magic. :p

Darken24
Apr 04, 2010, 10:14 AM
is it possible to give the mechanos adeptus the ability to dispel mana nodes similar to the metamagic 2 mostly because if you play with the extra mana nodes option or the mana node conversion option they could be really screwed especially if played by an ai

Valkrionn
Apr 04, 2010, 10:29 AM
is it possible to give the mechanos adeptus the ability to dispel mana nodes similar to the metamagic 2 mostly because if you play with the extra mana nodes option or the mana node conversion option they could be really screwed especially if played by an ai

Already have it; Research Divination (or possibly Alteration, can't remember which).

All mana techs give Adeptus/Techpriests a new ability; To see which, look up the Divine promotion, any which require the Ordo Machinarum religion are the ones in question.

Thormodr
Apr 04, 2010, 05:03 PM
I quite like the barbs as they are. They are pretty challenging. I had a long running battle with blah blah blah the longsighted. That little bugger pillaged everything in sight and generally harassed me for 50 turns I think. ;)

The game runs well after I installed the 1.22 patch. The game crashed repeatedly before that.

Anyway, super job. I sure hope we'll see a ciV version when all is said and done. That's a ways down the road though.

Rainbowsand
Apr 04, 2010, 10:57 PM
I have noted that there are forts (growing into castles and citadels) placed on game start at some chokepoint locations. While existence of the watch towers can be flavourified as "natural observation points used by ragged surviving hunters" these massive uninhabited constructions building themselves out of thin air are certainly require total removal or at least some far-fetched explanation.

Also could you please return an option to disable building improvements without techs? Hate to see AI building forts and quarries while they still stuck at researching agriculture and crafting.

Valkrionn
Apr 04, 2010, 11:09 PM
I have noted that there are forts (growing into castles and citadels) placed on game start at some chokepoint locations. While existence of the watch towers can be flavourified as "natural observation points used by ragged surviving hunters" these massive uninhabited constructions building themselves out of thin air are certainly require total removal or at least some far-fetched explanation.

Also could you please return an option to disable building improvements without techs? Hate to see AI building forts and quarries while they still stuck at researching agriculture and crafting.

Erebus is NOT emerging from a stone age. It is emerging from a Dark Age (Technically, Ice Age, but just as in Europe, you have a powerful empire that crashes, leaving barbarism and ruins).

Basically, there is an entirely feasible explanation for ruins (which these citadels represent); Patria.

It's also placed by the Flavor Start option; If you dislike the mechanic, don't use the option. ;)

As for barring improvements without techs... No. It's a mechanic that I think fits Erebus (Again, recovering from dark age, not discovering for the first time), and one that I like. It's also a mechanic that we are balancing for, meaning the ability to turn it off would throw that work completely out of whack.

You can prevent your own workers from building forts; It's a player option, as with Leave Old Improvements.

Rainbowsand
Apr 04, 2010, 11:10 PM
City ruins existence in game appears to me as a quite non-realistic (thankfully these are optional) because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier), see "moraine".

Also it would be good to prevent lion and the like lairs from appearing on ice with "End of Winter" turned on (which imo should be set as a default flavourwise)

Rainbowsand
Apr 04, 2010, 11:18 PM
Erebus is NOT emerging from a stone age. It is emerging from a Dark Age (Technically, Ice Age, but just as in Europe, you have a powerful empire that crashes, leaving barbarism and ruins).
Whoa whoa whoa! My spirit flares with a thirst for dispute; i think its worth a whole thread in Fall from Heaven Lore, which i shall soon create!

As for barring improvements without techs... No. It's a mechanic that I think fits Erebus (Again, recovering from dark age, not discovering for the first time), and one that I like. It's also a mechanic that we are balancing for, meaning the ability to turn it off would throw that work completely out of whack. I ask only for a switch on/off, as it is now in Wildmana (if i haven't confused it with something else:))

Valkrionn
Apr 04, 2010, 11:18 PM
City ruins existence in game appears to me as a quite non-realistic (thankfully these are optional) because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier), see "moraine".

Also it would be good to prevent lion and the like lairs from appearing on ice with "End of Winter" turned on (which imo should be set as a default flavourwise)

They are not representative of city ruins. They are ruined forts, placed in mountain passes and difficult terrain. Something that could feasibly survive an Ice Age; Trust me, well aware of what a moraine is and does.

Lion lairs are quite feasible for ice. Lions lead to Sabertooths, which were originally added as a specifically arctic animal.

Honestly, I've done absolutely nothing in regards to the End of Winter option; I dislike it, as it removes any possibility for planning your city placement. Thematically, the End of Winter should already have occured when the game begins. The option is along the same lines of the Ice Age Earth map; An interesting "What if civilization got a head start?" and nothing more.

Valkrionn
Apr 04, 2010, 11:27 PM
Whoa whoa whoa! My spirit flares with a thirst for dispute; i think its worth a whole thread in main FfH group, which i shall soon create!

I'm not sure there can be any dispute on that; Everything in the Lore states that the Age of Magic was a period governed by a world-encompassing Empire, Patria. It had begun to splinter into fractious states when Bhall fell, allowing Mulcarn to enter Erebus and initiate the Age of Ice, effectively halting the civil war. It is from this age that the modern Erebus is emerging.

In terms of environment, obviously this is far worse than our own Dark Age in Europe; In terms of knowledge, though, I believe the two would be quite similar. Some civilizations undoubtedly collapsed further (Doviello, Archos), but others (Bannor, Amurites, Balseraph (lead by Perpentach, one of the main governors of Patria), Mazatl, etc) much of the old knowledge was preserved, unlike in our own history. The environment just became too hard for the knowledge to be utilized; It was not lost.


I ask only for a switch on/off, as it is now in Wildmana (if i haven't confused it with something else:))

And again, we are balancing with this mechanic in mind. Any option which allows it to be turned off destroys said balance.

I can safely say that the mechanic currently in place will change, but there will be no option blocking improvements from being built without techs.

Edit: To explain my view further... Basically, anything which the team decides to integrate as a standard mechanic will be standard. It becomes something we balance for, and integrate fully into the mod; A very good example would be ranged combat. I will never add an option disabling this (Aside from a possible MP option; That's rather different though, and needed to prevent OOS), as Archery units are explicitly balanced with this mechanic in mind. Disabling it immediately nerfs these units into oblivion, which is not a good thing.

I frankly do not care if other mods have made certain mechanics optional or not; Those which are base mechanics in RifE will never be made optional. I have absolutely no interesting in attempting to maintain balance both with and without the mechanic, and will not add choices which explicitly destroy balance. :goodjob:

orinsul
Apr 05, 2010, 12:18 AM
The Dark Ages werent a time of forgotten knowledge or decline, they were a statism after a decline, Rome fell and in then everyone was too busy for anything else to done, technology wasnt forgotten, there was just no improvement on it. In alot of ways there were advancements, but not in culture or theoretical science as with the invasions from without and the heresies from within and the memory of the abject instability of the fall still strong in the minds and hearts of men there was no time for anything but the fight and so everything else suffered. But it wasnt lost, it just didnt get any better. But thats a historical quibble and still drastically simplistic.


Alright so the on top thing. Something as an Idea ive been thinking on for the mod that maybe you might like the sound of.

A Ritual-Chain either for the Clan of Embers or for anyone with a new religion, Bhallite, Rememberance of Bhall, Bhall Cult or something along those lines, which are an attempt to rivive the goddess inspired by the other resurrection and the illians ascention. seeing those success those who remember the flames seek to do the same. First Ritual maybe giving additional fire mana, the Second converting the nodes in your cultural borders to fire ones and giving an applicable promotion to all units.
And the Thrid and Final, in all its discription appearing as though it will resurrect the goddess, instead spawns barbarian fireballs or one-turn elements at every node, flames in every tile with any percent of the culture of the civ that does the rital and mass unhappiness, health and productivity in all cities for six turns or so. An attempt to do something which cant be done with dire consequences.

Additionally with Patria being a vast Magical dictatorship rather than an organised military empire surely comparisons with Rome cannot be made, the remanents of Patrian law survivng into the age of rebirth wouldnt resemble in the least those remanents that survived of roman law. They would be about the rights of the Magicians than the public individual, not the Authority of the state but the authority of the individual Wizards. And the chaos and corruption that Kylron turned himself against. But a great many of the after the fact additions paint them all too much as Rome. Whereas the History of Fall from Heaven from the base game gives the impression of a wild society held together by vastly powerful magicians not an organised military, but a disorganised tyrrany of many. And so surely the likes of the scions are incompatible with Patria for being too compatible with Rome. but thats another quibble, the point of this post was the middle one.

Rainbowsand
Apr 05, 2010, 12:44 AM
Dwarven mine from its description is but a minor improvement from ordinary mine, but in game it costs about six times more to build, and replaces ordinary mine, causing almost the same need in worker hordes as elven cottages in ancient forests with their 100+ turns to build.

"Mine becomes dwarven mine in 25 turns for dwarven and/or Arete civs"

sylvain5477
Apr 05, 2010, 12:53 AM
Dwarven mine from its description is but a minor improvement from ordinary mine, but in game it costs about six times more to build, and replaces ordinary mine, causing almost the same need in worker hordes as elven cottages in ancient forests with their 100+ turns to build.

"Mine becomes dwarven mine in 25 turns for dwarven and/or Arete civs"

Dwarven mine upgrade several times and finally produces a lot of both commerce and hammers.

EDIT : and provides a free fort commander !

Valkrionn
Apr 05, 2010, 07:10 AM
The Dark Ages werent a time of forgotten knowledge or decline, they were a statism after a decline, Rome fell and in then everyone was too busy for anything else to done, technology wasnt forgotten, there was just no improvement on it. In alot of ways there were advancements, but not in culture or theoretical science as with the invasions from without and the heresies from within and the memory of the abject instability of the fall still strong in the minds and hearts of men there was no time for anything but the fight and so everything else suffered. But it wasnt lost, it just didnt get any better. But thats a historical quibble and still drastically simplistic.

That was pretty much my point. All I meant by the 'unlike our own history' is I feel (at least for some of the civs) that the common man would have been educated as well. If knowledge/technology is only used by an elite few, it might as well be lost for all the good it does the society as a whole. ;)

Both of our views here though are quite simplistic. I could easily go into far more detail (History buff, though my interest wavers after the Renaissance and dies after WW2), but a simple metaphor was all I was going for there. :goodjob:


Alright so the on top thing. Something as an Idea ive been thinking on for the mod that maybe you might like the sound of.

A Ritual-Chain either for the Clan of Embers or for anyone with a new religion, Bhallite, Rememberance of Bhall, Bhall Cult or something along those lines, which are an attempt to rivive the goddess inspired by the other resurrection and the illians ascention. seeing those success those who remember the flames seek to do the same. First Ritual maybe giving additional fire mana, the Second converting the nodes in your cultural borders to fire ones and giving an applicable promotion to all units.
And the Thrid and Final, in all its discription appearing as though it will resurrect the goddess, instead spawns barbarian fireballs or one-turn elements at every node, flames in every tile with any percent of the culture of the civ that does the rital and mass unhappiness, health and productivity in all cities for six turns or so. An attempt to do something which cant be done with dire consequences.

Honestly, I don't really want to add anymore religions. We're planning to remove one, and add one more; That'll be it. And the one we're adding is already completely designed, lore written by Killer Clowns, and focused on one of the new civs. ;)


Additionally with Patria being a vast Magical dictatorship rather than an organised military empire surely comparisons with Rome cannot be made, the remanents of Patrian law survivng into the age of rebirth wouldnt resemble in the least those remanents that survived of roman law. They would be about the rights of the Magicians than the public individual, not the Authority of the state but the authority of the individual Wizards. And the chaos and corruption that Kylron turned himself against. But a great many of the after the fact additions paint them all too much as Rome. Whereas the History of Fall from Heaven from the base game gives the impression of a wild society held together by vastly powerful magicians not an organised military, but a disorganised tyrrany of many. And so surely the likes of the scions are incompatible with Patria for being too compatible with Rome. but thats another quibble, the point of this post was the middle one.

Hmm... I'm not sure of that. Remember, Kylorin did not create Patria while a mage. He became a mage after he had built his empire, using a well organized military (Believe Hippus were a part of that, possibly Bannor as well though at the time they were not nearly as disciplined). Honestly, while the remnants would likely be somewhat different, the basic story is pretty much compatible.

Dwarven mine from its description is but a minor improvement from ordinary mine, but in game it costs about six times more to build, and replaces ordinary mine, causing almost the same need in worker hordes as elven cottages in ancient forests with their 100+ turns to build.

"Mine becomes dwarven mine in 25 turns for dwarven and/or Arete civs"

Dwarven Mine becomes a Dwarven Settlement. If it was just the one improvement, sure. As it is, hell no. It is limited for a very good reason.

And no, it does not replace the ordinary mine. Both are still quite buildable. The Dwarven Mine is simply better, and cannot be built within a certain range of other Dwarven Mines.

inuyashasama
Apr 05, 2010, 09:05 AM
Plus you can use your soldiers of kilmorph to assist with mine construction.

Thormodr
Apr 05, 2010, 06:37 PM
I am playing as the Illians and when my city tiles turn to glacier, it kills off all my Frostlings. Is this working as intended?

Also, when blizzards come up, it damages my Frostlings. In my opinion, they should be immune to blizzard effects.

Besides that, the Illians have been super fun to play. Slowly turning the whole world into one giant iceball. :D

Valkrionn
Apr 05, 2010, 06:38 PM
I am playing as the Illians and when my city tiles turn to glacier, it kills off all my Frostlings. Is this working as intended?

Also, when blizzards come up, it damages my Frostlings. In my opinion, they should be immune to blizzard effects.

Besides that, the Illians have been super fun to play. Slowly turning the whole world into one giant iceball. :D

It is not, now. There will be tweaks to the Illians and the White Hand, though, to keep things balanced and make sure it works as intended.

Wodan
Apr 05, 2010, 06:53 PM
Good grief, Valk. Stock answer: everything's going to change. ;)

Valkrionn
Apr 05, 2010, 07:03 PM
Not EVERYTHING. :lol:

Actually the changes for White Hand had already been discussed; It's mainly just making sure it's power is inline with other religions, and making sure Illians following it aren't stupidly unbalanced. We have some ideas for the climate changing too, but I'm not sure yet if they'll be in. ;)

Expect major changes in all areas of the mod a few versions down the road though... 1.3 will be the stuff we've got mostly finished and the new barb system, 1.4 will redesign leaders, 1.5 will redesign units/buildings/civics/promotions, 1.6 redesigns guilds.... So eventually just about everything. :lol:

Thormodr
Apr 05, 2010, 11:11 PM
Ah ok. Nice to know.

The Illians do seem super powerful and I haven't even used their world spell yet. The whole world is basically on big iceball and everyone else is starving to death. Muhahaha!

Still maintaining cordial relations with everyone and I think there has been one war the entire game and it didn't involve me. It's about turn 700 now. :p

lordrune
Apr 08, 2010, 05:03 PM
Latest patch is very enjoyable. Have played a few games and haven't had any CTDs or noticed any game-breaking bugs :)

Have to play with Timid Animals on, though. Otherwise the AIs dont stand a chance :)

Valkrionn
Apr 08, 2010, 05:04 PM
Latest patch is very enjoyable. Have played a few games and haven't had any CTDs or noticed any game-breaking bugs :)

Have to play with Timid Animals on, though. Otherwise the AIs dont stand a chance :)

Glad to hear it's stable for you. ;)

And barbs are going to be changed quite a bit, been working on that. ;)

7ate9tin11s
Apr 08, 2010, 06:26 PM
A small idea that would make the religions a bit more flavorful...

Specialized Religious Rituals :D

For example:

Octopus Overlords
Ritual: Vociferating Depths
Flavor Text: The voices of the overlords whisper no more, the very waves proclaim their message...
Requirements: OO Religion, 6 OO Temples, Machinery
Cost: 1300 :hammers:
Duration: 2+ turns, depending on map size
Actions:
All non-OO living units on or within 3 tiles of water have a chance of receiving one of the following:
15% - OO Religion
5% - Converted into a barbarian drown
5% - Enervated
5% - Weak
5% - Crazed
5% - Lost
5% - Estranged
5% - Unwholesome Addiction

All OO units on or within 3 tiles of water have a chance of receiving one of the following:
5% - Enraged
5% - Unstoppable
5% - Strong
5% - Crazed

All non-OO races hate OO races alot more (-8)

Runes of Kilmorph
Ritual: Blessed Stone
Flavor Text: You see? The lady of earth and stone will draw from unbelievers to bless us...
Requirements: RK Religion, 6 RK Temples, Fanaticism
Cost: 1300 :hammers:
Duration: 8+ turns, depending on map size
Actions:
All cities with RK gain 1 gold per plot of land, all non-RK cities lose X gold where X is the total of RK gained gold divided by the number of non-RK cities. This means that a single holdout civilization will be massively damaged and if there is minimal RK cities the damage will be tiny (ie 1 gold from every non RK city)...so spread that religion :D
All RK races like each other more and all non-RK races dislike RK races more (+/-6)

Ashen Vale
Ritual: Blood Control
Flavor Text: You take our blood, our brains, our children...did you think we gave them for no reason?
Requirements: AV Religion, 6 AV Temples, Commune with Nature, Infernal Pact
Cost: 1300 :hammers:
Duration: Instant
Actions:
If possible, Infernal Race is made into the Vassal state of casting race.
All units in cities with AV religion which do not have AV religion have a 10% chance to convert to AV, this effect happens prior to the following effects.
All AV units belonging to non-AV religion races have a 50% chance of converting to a random AV religion race.
All races receive 1 :science: for each AV unit owned
All non-AV races hate AV races alot more (-8)

Some less specific ideas include the Order ritual giving happiness to lawful races and revolts in chaotic races and the leaves ritual causing forest blooms in all lands, but destroying any improvements in non-leaves lands.

These would all be unique world wonders and would add some religious flavor to the late game.

Looking forward to 1.3,

-7ate9tin11s

Valkrionn
Apr 08, 2010, 06:35 PM
Hmm... These are some very interesting ideas. :goodjob:

isthmus
Apr 08, 2010, 08:59 PM
Speaking of rituals, did the ritual system in the original FF (ie mana surge, curse the land) ever get fixed? The rituals themselves are still in the RiFE pedia but you can't use them in game, do they still need to be there?

jasonjay77
Apr 09, 2010, 12:48 PM
If I want to change which civ's can build which units where would the location of that folder be exactly?

Valkrionn
Apr 09, 2010, 12:56 PM
If I want to change which civ's can build which units where would the location of that folder be exactly?

That would be the uniqueunits section of CivilizationInfos, so Assets/XML/Civilizations.

You can give them a new unit for a unitclass (Replacement for a Warrior, for example) or give them a NONE unit for a unitclass, blocking them from building it.

jasonjay77
Apr 09, 2010, 01:15 PM
That would be the uniqueunits section of CivilizationInfos, so Assets/XML/Civilizations.

You can give them a new unit for a unitclass (Replacement for a Warrior, for example) or give them a NONE unit for a unitclass, blocking them from building it.



Hmmm....Can I edit that with notepad or do I need a specific XML editor?

Valkrionn
Apr 09, 2010, 01:41 PM
Hmmm....Can I edit that with notepad or do I need a specific XML editor?

Notepad works fine, though most of us use Notepad++ (Freeware program, with xml/python/etc support built in).

jasonjay77
Apr 09, 2010, 03:07 PM
Great! I recently downloaded Notepad++.

Trappisto
Apr 10, 2010, 02:17 AM
Idea that dwarven races could access a ritual called subteraneon exploration on completion of mining and fanatism (or similar). Idea is that this could be done once in each dwarven city: they mine deep and send a large exploration team into bowels of erberus.

Outcome would be quite like exploring a ruin - could yield lots of gold, magical items, spawn a strong demon, spawn lots of barbs - quite useful for exp. -1 population for duration, 80% chance +1 pop after (exploration team returns), 30% +2 population after (return with some deep dwarves).

Most dark fantasy epics seems to show the dwarves getting themselves into trouble from digging too deep so this seems rather fitting!

CurseUppl
Apr 10, 2010, 04:07 PM
Hm, would it be possible to add a subterranean level to Civ? Heroes 3 comes to mind. It would only be accessible if a dwarven civ is in play and cities would provide said access. So for another civ to access the underground, they'd have to capture a dwarven city.

isthmus
Apr 10, 2010, 05:54 PM
Hm, would it be possible to add a subterranean level to Civ? Heroes 3 comes to mind. It would only be accessible if a dwarven civ is in play and cities would provide said access. So for another civ to access the underground, they'd have to capture a dwarven city.

I believe Kael was thinking about having different levels within the base FFH but this idea didn't take off because the AI could never really be taught to manage units between levels. In the end he compromised with the hell terrain spread over erebus instead of having a separate hell region.

The idea you mentioned, although it would be really cool to see something like that in game would be really hard to make it happen :)

Evalis
Apr 11, 2010, 07:43 AM
Not sure if this belongs in the bug thread.. but Crossbowmen are no longer national units. Is this working as intended? Seems sort of pointless to build arquebuses when the tech cost to research them (and no gun powder required) is the same.

Valkrionn
Apr 11, 2010, 12:20 PM
Not sure if this belongs in the bug thread.. but Crossbowmen are no longer national units. Is this working as intended? Seems sort of pointless to build arquebuses when the tech cost to research them (and no gun powder required) is the same.

I'm not sure when that happened, honestly, but it will change in any case. Just not quite yet. Big plans for units. :p

Evalis
Apr 12, 2010, 12:15 PM
So after playing for a bit.. I've noticed that the runes of kilmorph religion recieved a huge boost. A bit too much I think. The trouble is that all dwarves can build dwarven mines (and those Kimorph guys don't leave you if you switch religions). And those mines all provide the same benefit to all races.

Considering that I can have a tile provide +3 food and +4 production and +5 commerce without running arete I may as well build the thing there considering there is nothing to compete with that sort of benefit from a single tile (not to mention the fort commander). Personally I don't see the reason for the additional commerce and food bonus from the tiles for anyone but the khazad (given that they get -1 food from farms and are sort of hosed in using agriostocracy). Personally I think only running arete should grant any bonuses to non-dwarven races. The luchuirp should only get a minor +1 food and +2 commerce from the mine. If you happen to be running arete then you can get additional bonuses, but nothing that running industry wouldn't also provide. Right now there isn't much of a reason to run any other religion other than FoL with the elves.

Erm ... put another way, non dwarves could only build the mine, luchiurp can get a settlement, and khazad can get up to a fortress.

Evalis
Apr 12, 2010, 01:26 PM
On another note, the attack power of catapults needs to be toned down a bit. With a level 3 catapult (easily acheivable) it is possible to have a 6 attack rating versus defenders.. add in one extra attack (via master seigesmith) and that's 12 attack rating veruses defenders (much higher than attainable at the point this can be achieved). What's even more troubling is that the commanders can grant a +2 to attack rating to catapults with their final tier, in addition to an extra 100% versus cities. So we are now looking at 4x7 or 28 attack power versus units that probably have 5-8 defense. Granted you'll likely only have three of these, but I'm pretty sure that's enough given that they cause collateral damage (80%) I think. that's pretty much a gauranteed volley of 70% of whatever stack you just attacked health. Cannons are slightly worse at 35 attack rating. I think catapults should get a boost to their regular attack power and a decrease in city attack rating. So 3 for catapults and 6 for cannons. Maybe +30% per promotion (like melee normally get).

isthmus
Apr 12, 2010, 04:43 PM
So after playing for a bit.. I've noticed that the runes of kilmorph religion recieved a huge boost. A bit too much I think.
Considering that I can have a tile provide +3 food and +4 production and +5 commerce without running arete I may as well build the thing there considering there is nothing to compete with that sort of benefit from a single tile (not to mention the fort commander). Personally I don't see the reason for the additional commerce and food bonus from the tiles for anyone but the khazad (given that they get -1 food from farms and are sort of hosed in using agriostocracy). Personally I think only running arete should grant any bonuses to non-dwarven races.

Think I agree with this.. RoK is a pretty powerful religion, you get two heroes, a unique civic, strong improvement, a iron creating wonder, a superunit and the usual disciple units, who although arn't the best in the game are still good enough. Oh, and a really useful temple..

I think that dwarven mines should not upgrade if non-RoK or non-dwarf, and have the same initial yields as a regular mine unless following the arete civic. Still a bit overpowered, but dwarven mines are cool :D

Almagafor
Apr 12, 2010, 08:20 PM
Maybe instead of downgrading DMines giving other religions improvements to compensate?

Evalis
Apr 12, 2010, 10:26 PM
There's a lot that needs changing. Currently the only religions that have something going for them production wise are FoL, RoK, and AV. Sacrifice the weak gives a pretty powerful production bonus, on par with the extra food from trees and mines. Order has a balisca which is available at religious law, a pretty high tech, and empyrian doesn't seem to get anything. Octopus overlords only get the wonder that eliminates unhappiness, and Council of Esus has always blown chunks. (Though I understand that religion is due for a rework in the next coming patches.

So.. for order, maybe make it so that confessors can cast a spell that turns any cottage improvement in that square into a town (it takes 1 turn per upgrade, or just 4 turns). Enclaves not included.. and include a wonder that reduces crime and maintenance in all cities by an added 20%, or a building that grants extra free unit supply.

Octopus Overlords should spawn kelp farms and upgrade whale boats to +1 food (not fishing boats).

Empyrean should grant +1 commerce from bedoun huts and allow non-malakim races to build them on desert tiles, and grant a cumulitive +5% trade bonus to trade routes per sun mana. Their wonder already does something in the form of revealing invisible units within your territory. (Most of their units can cast something to reveal nationality too).

Valkrionn
Apr 12, 2010, 10:41 PM
So after playing for a bit.. I've noticed that the runes of kilmorph religion recieved a huge boost. A bit too much I think. The trouble is that all dwarves can build dwarven mines (and those Kimorph guys don't leave you if you switch religions). And those mines all provide the same benefit to all races.

I'm planning to massively reduce the innate yields (Drop it to something like 1:food: 2:hammers:, still better than a mine and buildable everywhere) for all levels. All levels the same aside from culture/defense. Then have the Khazad (and Luchuirp to a lesser degree, but they can only build them while RoK) gain bonus yields for them.

Not ALL Dwarves can build the Mines. SoK were granted specific worker actions, and the Dwarven Mine was one of those.

On another note, the attack power of catapults needs to be toned down a bit. With a level 3 catapult (easily acheivable) it is possible to have a 6 attack rating versus defenders.. add in one extra attack (via master seigesmith) and that's 12 attack rating veruses defenders (much higher than attainable at the point this can be achieved). What's even more troubling is that the commanders can grant a +2 to attack rating to catapults with their final tier, in addition to an extra 100% versus cities. So we are now looking at 4x7 or 28 attack power versus units that probably have 5-8 defense. Granted you'll likely only have three of these, but I'm pretty sure that's enough given that they cause collateral damage (80%) I think. that's pretty much a gauranteed volley of 70% of whatever stack you just attacked health. Cannons are slightly worse at 35 attack rating. I think catapults should get a boost to their regular attack power and a decrease in city attack rating. So 3 for catapults and 6 for cannons. Maybe +30% per promotion (like melee normally get).

Believe me, we have something planned. The unit tree has been entirely redesigned, just not implemented yet (and won't be for a few patches; 1.5 is when it's scheduled, we're about done with 1.3. Material for 1.4 is mostly designed already as well).

Think I agree with this.. RoK is a pretty powerful religion, you get two heroes, a unique civic, strong improvement, a iron creating wonder, a superunit and the usual disciple units, who although arn't the best in the game are still good enough. Oh, and a really useful temple..

I think that dwarven mines should not upgrade if non-RoK or non-dwarf, and have the same initial yields as a regular mine unless following the arete civic. Still a bit overpowered, but dwarven mines are cool :D

Dwarven Mines were originally Khazad only. They were allowed for RoK (and I like the flavor of it) but need to be rebalanced for it. See above. ;)

Maybe instead of downgrading DMines giving other religions improvements to compensate?

FoL will grant workers access to a new improvement in one of the new versions (not sure where it will come in yet, whenever we get to it); The Orchard. Can be built in forest, Elves will still prefer cottages.

There's a lot that needs changing. Currently the only religions that have something going for them production wise are FoL, RoK, and AV. Sacrifice the weak gives a pretty powerful production bonus, on par with the extra food from trees and mines. Order has a balisca which is available at religious law, a pretty high tech, and empyrian doesn't seem to get anything. Octopus overlords only get the wonder that eliminates unhappiness, and Council of Esus has always blown chunks. (Though I understand that religion is due for a rework in the next coming patches.

CoE will be both religion and guild once we finish the guild rework.

Also, you left off two religions: White Hand and Airandamar. :mischief:


So.. for order, maybe make it so that confessors can cast a spell that turns any cottage improvement in that square into a town (it takes 1 turn per upgrade, or just 4 turns). Enclaves not included.. and include a wonder that reduces crime and maintenance in all cities by an added 20%, or a building that grants extra free unit supply.

I'm actually thinking of re-adding the Patriarch unit for Order only. Was an upgrade of the High Priest in an old version of FfH; World limit of 1, can be used to force all co-religionists into your wars. So if you're Order Bannor, and go to war against AV Sheaim, you can pull all other Order civs into it.


Octopus Overlords should spawn kelp farms and upgrade whale boats to +1 food (not fishing boats).

I'm thinking of tweaking OO similar to in Orbis.


Empyrean should grant +1 commerce from bedoun huts and allow non-malakim races to build them on desert tiles, and grant a cumulitive +5% trade bonus to trade routes per sun mana. Their wonder already does something in the form of revealing invisible units within your territory. (Most of their units can cast something to reveal nationality too).

Empy allowing access to Bedouin Sits would be interesting, will consider it.

7ate9tin11s
Apr 13, 2010, 12:15 AM
I was playing the Sheaim and thought the stats/use of the succubus were a bit weird lorewise. They are basically a slightly stronger fawn. So my edited version...

Tech/Build Changes: Sheaim can no longer build bath house, instead they can build a "House of Joy" or somesuch after researching deception (or guilds) that has the same basic effect (perhaps one extra happy and one extra sick?). This building would be for succubus spawns and the deeper research requirement would offset their increased utility.

:strength: 4/3 +1 Unholy +1 Poison +1 Fire (Unholy, poison and fire...ye ol' demonic std :rolleyes: )
:move: 2 (Got wings?)

•Starts with Mind 3 (Domination)
•Cannot Pillage
•Immune to First Strikes & Defensive Strikes
•1 First Strike
•-25% City Attack & Defense
•-25% vs Elf (Most all elves seem to be female in RiFE)
•-25% vs Non-Living
•50% Chance to create a Slave from Combat
•Can Explore Rival Territory
•Cannot use Weapons
•Can view Rival City Details
•Starts with Marksman, Invisible, Demon

So they basically end up being a weak shadow with the ability to dominate and no real use against animals. The only problem I have found in my editing the unit in is that the failing to dominate does not remove mind 3...and it never seems to succeed :( . Otherwise, having a decent shadow type unit in the ashen vale required sheaim was quite nice.

Just a thought :D

Darksaber1
Apr 13, 2010, 07:09 PM
So, what does The Breach do exactly, and what are the machanics? Recreating units that you've lost?

blackCat
Apr 14, 2010, 11:03 AM
Hi Val,

Last week, I got a new idea.

What do u think about doing a totaly new tech tree like rise of mankind.

So your mod would be a totaly new one not a modmod.

Valkrionn
Apr 14, 2010, 11:21 AM
Hi Val,

Last week, I got a new idea.

What do u think about doing a totaly new tech tree like rise of mankind.

So your mod would be a totaly new one not a modmod.

I honestly like FfH's tech tree. There are some adjustments planned, but only as necessary; Nothing major.

Also, a new tech tree would not make RifE a mod vs a modmod. Regardless of anything else, we contain the ideas and lore of FfH; It will always be a modmod as a result. ;)

Evalis
Apr 15, 2010, 01:38 AM
Researching the white hand shouldn't spawn ice and tundra in non-neutral lands. It's rather crippling to a city to have ice patches appear in it's midst. Even if sun mana is available to get rid of this it's extremely time consuming and also often requires water mana to get the land back to grasslands. Much too powerful for the illians and doviello to auto-cripple every other nation simply via research. On another note.. why does the armageddon counter 'increase' when raising the white hand holy city?

Valkrionn
Apr 15, 2010, 07:31 AM
Researching the white hand shouldn't spawn ice and tundra in non-neutral lands. It's rather crippling to a city to have ice patches appear in it's midst. Even if sun mana is available to get rid of this it's extremely time consuming and also often requires water mana to get the land back to grasslands. Much too powerful for the illians and doviello to auto-cripple every other nation simply via research. On another note.. why does the armageddon counter 'increase' when raising the white hand holy city?

Simply RESEARCHING it does not spawn ice and tundra. Worshipping it does, and it takes you all the way to Glacial terrain.

Armageddon counter increases when the White Hand is razed because it is vehemently opposed to armageddon. It may be evil, but Auric wants to rule; He does NOT want to destroy.

Evalis
Apr 15, 2010, 04:33 PM
Switching to the religion isn't much different than researching it, and it still spawns in enemy lands, which seems too powerful for the research cost involved. Then again, summoning samhain has always been just as bad. Much much worse to the computer that doesn't understand how to terraform.

By the way.. second note here, is it possible to add a progression table to the alter of luonnotar victory? Right now it only tells you if you or your rivals have won or not.

Valkrionn
Apr 15, 2010, 05:16 PM
Switching to the religion isn't much different than researching it, and it still spawns in enemy lands, which seems too powerful for the research cost involved. Then again, summoning samhain has always been just as bad. Much much worse to the computer that doesn't understand how to terraform.

By the way.. second note here, is it possible to add a progression table to the alter of luonnotar victory? Right now it only tells you if you or your rivals have won or not.

But it does not spawn in enemy lands. The only way that would happen is if they are attacking you with their priests.

On Altar; Possible, will look at it.

Evalis
Apr 15, 2010, 06:38 PM
You're right. I just tested it.. they must have had a great engineer saved to speed the ritual production handy. It just appeared to happen on the same turn.

isthmus
Apr 15, 2010, 06:59 PM
I've always thought that the only way to spread ice outside of white hand/illian borders was ice elemental death, frozen lands spell or the deepening, are you sure it's not that?

I don't think you can hurry projects along with engineers or other hurrying methods either.

Evalis
Apr 15, 2010, 09:01 PM
It must have been the depening, but it happened the same turn they converted, and yeah I just discovered you can't hurry projects with engineers.. I don't know what they did, but it seemed like them founding the religion did it.

Oranos
Apr 15, 2010, 11:35 PM
I'm guessing this has already been suggested, but I'm too lazy to read through the whole forum. I think the Mechanos should have a building similar to airports, aerodrome maybe, allowing them to connect cities without terrestrial or aquatic routes.

inuyashasama
Apr 16, 2010, 02:56 PM
They can build the nexus and obsidian gates.

isthmus
Apr 16, 2010, 04:01 PM
You'll almost never get to build the nexus or obsidian gates as the mechanos because it's on the magic techline, something that the mechanos shouldn't really be on past alteration/elementalism/necromancy/divination.
However I think the railroad improvement is the remedy for this - it requires refined mana, so it's pretty much mechanos exclusive and units get a big movement boost on it. It's not quite the same as the airlift buildings but I think it fits the mechanos better than such buildings. :)

Fluesterwitz
Apr 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
How about a melee promo for the Mechanos that gives the unit the ability to air-drop. Thopter-borne air-assault troops! :ar15:

Bioroid
Apr 17, 2010, 04:44 PM
Nice idea.

First it was very difficult for me to play FFH2. But after a month when i developed new strategies it started to be very easy. Even in a Prince difficulty with 5 rival AI teams with 2 AI civilizations in each team. Even Acheron is not a problem. Normally I subdual him on 220-250 turn after animal mastery with Alazkan The Assassin. (Putting Deity difficulty to make the game more interesting is not good because AI will just produce hundreds of units)

Evil environment appears not so dangerous and not so evil. I propose to include one optional possibility into the game. The Black Tower. barbarian extremely evil and powerful city. It can have some nice art like Sauron's tower from Lord of The Rings, the huge slim elegant black tower. The idea is that approximately by the turn 250 barbarians create The Black Tower which is pure evil and dangerous place. It has powerfull guardians, much more powerful then Acheron, and this place spawns extremely powerful creatures and holds rare artifacts and treasures inside them and a tower itself. I Think It can spawns liches, manticoras, ogres, wraith, mistforms, beasts of Agares and even may be mighty moving dragons. (all beautiful made arts which were not included into the game can be included here like unique spawning hostile barbarian heroes and creatures). Terrain around is unfertile rotting undead desolation. To conquer the Black Tower should be really challenging, this is so difficult that it can be even the optional victory to the player who manage to do this. In most games The Black Tower simply will destroy every single civilization on a continent.

The main idea is to feel again the immensely desperate situation of persisting in evil Erebus world. The Black Tower should be more powerful then a half the rival AI altogether. To conquer The Black Tower is unachievable act of bravery.

isthmus
Apr 17, 2010, 05:21 PM
Evil environment appears not so dangerous and not so evil. I propose to include one optional possibility into the game. The Black Tower. barbarian extremely evil and powerful city. It can have some nice art like Sauron's tower from Lord of The Rings, the huge slim elegant black tower. The idea is that approximately by the turn 250 barbarians create The Black Tower which is pure evil and dangerous place. It has powerfull guardians, much more powerful then Acheron, and this place spawns extremely powerful creatures and holds rare artifacts and treasures inside them and a tower itself. I Think It can spawns liches, manticoras, ogres, wraith, mistforms, beasts of Agares and even may be mighty moving dragons. (all beautiful made arts which were not included into the game can be included here like unique spawning hostile barbarian heroes and creatures). Terrain around is unfertile rotting undead desolation. To conquer the Black Tower should be really challenging, this is so difficult that it can be even the optional victory to the player who manage to do this. In most games The Black Tower simply will destroy every single civilization on a continent.

The main idea is to feel again the immensely desperate situation of persisting in evil Erebus world. The Black Tower should be more powerful then a half the rival AI altogether. To conquer The Black Tower is unachievable act of bravery.

I like this idea, although I think it should definitely have some late game requirements for the barbarian civ to use it. The city that Acheron is built in is basically a no-go zone for a large proportion of the game - him spawing can be devastating if it blocks you from the rest of the continent.
I think that once established empires are made then there is room for a serious barbarian entity like this, since civs can deal with this at this point. I think it would be good for the barbarian civ to have another trick up their sleeve, especially since TumTum is very underwhelming given the time he usually spawns.
If you're foolish or negligent enough to leave barbarian cities until the late game then I think it's fair that a serious threat arises. Also gives another late-game anticiv mechanic if armageddon isn't playing an important role

Evalis
Apr 18, 2010, 10:34 PM
nevermind..

Valkrionn
Apr 18, 2010, 10:40 PM
Actually, Shamans are able to upgrade just fine. If a mage guild can be acquired somehow. ;)

joemag
Apr 19, 2010, 10:24 PM
I have an issue with racial (species?) promotions in general in FFH and submods. I haven't looked closely enough, but it seems that most racial promotions only bestow benefits to the unit, leaving humans (and others?) without these small bonuses. Some balance could be introduced like giving lizardmen a -10% on ice and tundra (since they are coldblooded) or giving elves -10% in desert (since there are no trees?).

Almagafor
Apr 20, 2010, 12:12 AM
I have an issue with racial (species?) promotions in general in FFH and submods. I haven't looked closely enough, but it seems that most racial promotions only bestow benefits to the unit, leaving humans (and others?) without these small bonuses. Some balance could be introduced like giving lizardmen a -10% on ice and tundra (since they are coldblooded) or giving elves -10% in desert (since there are no trees?).

While I agree with the lizardmen, I think the elven worker gutting is already bad enough.

shoggi
Apr 20, 2010, 06:07 AM
Most racial promotions have some negative aspects:

Demons are weak against holy damage.
Elves are slower workers and are weak against cold damage.
Giants gain less experience.
Goblins are even slower workers.
Golems are slow healers (and can' gain experience, though that has nothing to do with the racial promotion in itself)
Ice Demons and Frostlings are weak to fire damage.
Illusions can't kill anything and have a chance to miscast spells.
Lizardman are weak against cold damage.
Orcs are weak against cold and slower workers.
Trolls gain less experiece and are extremly weak against fire.

Most of the time the good outweighs the bad, but it's not all good.

Korias
Apr 20, 2010, 08:12 AM
giving elves -10% in desert (since there are no trees?).

Considering Varn himself is an Elf, I dont think that really makes much sense.

Valkrionn
Apr 20, 2010, 09:43 AM
I have an issue with racial (species?) promotions in general in FFH and submods. I haven't looked closely enough, but it seems that most racial promotions only bestow benefits to the unit, leaving humans (and others?) without these small bonuses. Some balance could be introduced like giving lizardmen a -10% on ice and tundra (since they are coldblooded) or giving elves -10% in desert (since there are no trees?).

Most racial promotions have some negative aspects:

Demons are weak against holy damage.
Elves are slower workers and are weak against cold damage.
Giants gain less experience.
Goblins are even slower workers.
Golems are slow healers (and can' gain experience, though that has nothing to do with the racial promotion in itself)
Ice Demons and Frostlings are weak to fire damage.
Illusions can't kill anything and have a chance to miscast spells.
Lizardman are weak against cold damage.
Orcs are weak against cold and slower workers.
Trolls gain less experiece and are extremly weak against fire.

Most of the time the good outweighs the bad, but it's not all good.

^This. The only ones that are entirely positive are Centaur and Musteval (and Lamia too, when I add it), but for those it is nearly all that makes them different for the Kurios. Musteval, for example, gain a small bit of City Defense and can examine enemy cities. That's it. :lol:

Darksaber1
Apr 20, 2010, 10:24 AM
So, I guess your adding Mustevel in the version?

Valkrionn
Apr 20, 2010, 10:33 AM
So, I guess your adding Mustevel in the version?

Added them when SeZ first made the art. ;)

Elwist
Apr 20, 2010, 08:16 PM
I don't know what the plan is for gaining passive experience but I was thinking that it could be fun to have an option which made units gain extra passive experience if there is a unit of the same type with more experience in a city with them. This would give your heroes more to do during peace time, and feels a bit more flavorful. May also be able to allow generals to give that bonus to any class giving them a bit more to do.
No idea about the programming problems with that.

joemag
Apr 20, 2010, 08:40 PM
Most racial promotions have some negative aspects:

Demons are weak against holy damage.
Elves are slower workers and are weak against cold damage.
Giants gain less experience.
Goblins are even slower workers.
Golems are slow healers (and can' gain experience, though that has nothing to do with the racial promotion in itself)
Ice Demons and Frostlings are weak to fire damage.
Illusions can't kill anything and have a chance to miscast spells.
Lizardman are weak against cold damage.
Orcs are weak against cold and slower workers.
Trolls gain less experiece and are extremly weak against fire.

Most of the time the good outweighs the bad, but it's not all good.

Ah thank you, I clearly didn't look closely enough.

sinner003
Apr 21, 2010, 09:04 AM
hello, new to this, but not new to fall from heaven two, though i havent played any of the modmod yets...

i would like to pitch an idea for a roman/greek like civilization, who value order and abhor chaos to the point where they are anti magic...they would instead use things like more seige weapons, a ship line based on the galley/trireme/quadreme/quinqereme, and magic hunter units...

because nearly every civ uses magic in some form or another, even if its only to light the cities, as shown in the gridlines flavor text, they would also be somewhat barbarous, with more emphasis on brute force using roman and greek styled infantry and such.

also, i would hope that certain things like hinterlands might not be used...seems like it would hinder opening game expansion and placement...i find the beginning of the match very important as everyone jockeys for position and setup...

i also think that adding things like hobbits might make the great world that was created way too Tolkienish, something that i dread...its hard to find such a good world that isn't overly based on his high fantasy epic, and i would greatly like the game to stay with as little Tolkien as possible...

Grey Fox
Apr 21, 2010, 09:15 AM
Dural and Grigori are becoming more Greek and Romanesque.

We do want a hinterlands feeling, we like that it hinders the early expansion. Barbarians will get toned down next version though, but they will also get more territorial.

And yeah we don't want Tolkienish fantasy either. This is still Dark Fantasy.

XenoRufus
Apr 21, 2010, 09:43 AM
Soo, only request I have at the moment is to see if you can add the new Vampire Lord model I seen in FFH...oh lord do I love that spear.

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 09:44 AM
i would like to pitch an idea for a roman/greek like civilization, who value order and abhor chaos to the point where they are anti magic...they would instead use things like more seige weapons, a ship line based on the galley/trireme/quadreme/quinqereme, and magic hunter units...

because nearly every civ uses magic in some form or another, even if its only to light the cities, as shown in the gridlines flavor text, they would also be somewhat barbarous, with more emphasis on brute force using roman and greek styled infantry and such.

As Grey Fox said, the Grigori and Dural will become Roman and Greek respectively. Just a bit of flavor, not too much.

As for a siege-based, anti-magic civ... Play the Mechanos, and then thank Ahwaric for making them. :lol: Airships rather than what you described, but otherwise the same... Even have a Witch Hunter unit.


also, i would hope that certain things like hinterlands might not be used...seems like it would hinder opening game expansion and placement...i find the beginning of the match very important as everyone jockeys for position and setup...

It is intended to do just that, actually.

The version I'm working on will create quite a bit of barbarian (and animal) culture. The stronger barbs will then be confined to that culture; That will be the Hinterlands. You will have to actively root them out in order to expand, but should not be too hardpressed in your own culture.


i also think that adding things like hobbits might make the great world that was created way too Tolkienish, something that i dread...its hard to find such a good world that isn't overly based on his high fantasy epic, and i would greatly like the game to stay with as little Tolkien as possible...

Completely agree.

sinner003
Apr 21, 2010, 11:24 AM
will the religions be getting more units and such?
and is there a way or possibility of neutral heros?
heros that dont come from either religions, or civs?
ones anyone can get, maybe tied into civics or councils?

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 01:17 PM
will the religions be getting more units and such?
and is there a way or possibility of neutral heros?
heros that dont come from either religions, or civs?
ones anyone can get, maybe tied into civics or councils?

Religions getting more units - possible.
Religions getting more features - probable. ;)


As for generic heroes... Check this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=342533

jasonjay77
Apr 21, 2010, 03:02 PM
I want to get rid of all Assassins from the game.

I'm thinking that I can go into CivUnitClassInfos and delete the Unit Class Assassin.

Would this work?

If not what should I do? I really don't like the prospect of looking up each Assassin unit for each race and inserting NONE.

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 03:13 PM
I want to get rid of all Assassins from the game.

I'm thinking that I can go into CivUnitClassInfos and delete the Unit Class Assassin.

Would this work?

If not what should I do? I really don't like the prospect of looking up each Assassin unit for each race and inserting NONE.

You'd have to clean up all references. Units, Unit Class, UU's in the civ page.

sinner003
Apr 21, 2010, 03:15 PM
thats pretty cool, the grigori getting more roman/greek, as well as their new minor leader.
the elohim have a lot of such sprites, but the weakness of the trireme and galley eventually annoy me, as well as their lack of ocean ability...quadreme or quinqereme sprites for the elohims later ships or the new grigori might be interesting and/or appropriate.

will there be more minor leaders for each civ? looking forward to more such leaders for the balseraphs and elohim especially, who are my favorite to play as.

also, would it be possible to allow world wonders and mebbe national wonders to be kept after capturing a city?

or a tech or promotion that allows no city flipping ((becoming your type of city)) after a capture? because besides the philosophical trait, and the tolerant trait, and the more greek inspired design sprites and such, i would much rather prefer the balseraphs or the doviello. anything to allow me to have the same kind of empire i have under the elohim, without having to use the lore breaking allow any leaders...

jasonjay77
Apr 21, 2010, 03:19 PM
So, what you're saying is that it would be simpler to simply look up each assassin unit for each race and insert none?

*Sigh*

MagisterCultuum
Apr 21, 2010, 03:20 PM
Deleting the unitclass would require also removing all units of the unitclass if you want CIV4UnitInfos.xml to load correctly.

Leaving the units in the game but giving the unitclass a world (or team, or national) limit of 0 would probably be the simplest solution.

jasonjay77
Apr 21, 2010, 03:28 PM
Awesome, thanks!

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 03:42 PM
thats pretty cool, the grigori getting more roman/greek, as well as their new minor leader.
the elohim have a lot of such sprites, but the weakness of the trireme and galley eventually annoy me, as well as their lack of ocean ability...quadreme or quinqereme sprites for the elohims later ships or the new grigori might be interesting and/or appropriate.

Well, the Grigori are only getting Roman flavors. Dural get Greek ones. ;)


will there be more minor leaders for each civ? looking forward to more such leaders for the balseraphs and elohim especially, who are my favorite to play as.

We have 99 leaders atm (ignoring Kahd). We're adding around 40 more. :p

The majority of those are going to civs with just one leader, though... Balseraphs are not getting any new ones (Already have like 6), Elohim are getting just the 1 I believe.


also, would it be possible to allow world wonders and mebbe national wonders to be kept after capturing a city?

World Wonders already should be.


or a tech or promotion that allows no city flipping ((becoming your type of city)) after a capture? because besides the philosophical trait, and the tolerant trait, and the more greek inspired design sprites and such, i would much rather prefer the balseraphs or the doviello. anything to allow me to have the same kind of empire i have under the elohim, without having to use the lore breaking allow any leaders...

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

So, what you're saying is that it would be simpler to simply look up each assassin unit for each race and insert none?

*Sigh*

The absolute minimum would be adding NONE for all the assassin UU's in the civ entries (or just deleting it's entry, either works) and then adding the bUnique tag to the Assassin unitclass.

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 03:44 PM
Deleting the unitclass would require also removing all units of the unitclass if you want CIV4UnitInfos.xml to load correctly.

Leaving the units in the game but giving the unitclass a world (or team, or national) limit of 0 would probably be the simplest solution.

That one would work too. bUnique is cleaner, though. :p

Korias
Apr 21, 2010, 05:26 PM
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.


I think he means making it so that EVERY leader has Conqueror, so captured cities retain their original "civ"

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 05:32 PM
I think he means making it so that EVERY leader has Conqueror, so captured cities retain their original "civ"

Ah. Yeah, not a mechanic that is likely to be added. :p

Korias
Apr 21, 2010, 06:13 PM
As for generic heroes... Check this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=342533

These are actually mostly done too. They ALL use basic unit art, and some of the unique promotions I have planned dont have art yet (but they will!) but they're all at their proper techs and costs. I think. They may need to be balanced but that comes with playtesting.

So yes, the councils and extra non-aligned heroes are on their way.

blade117
Apr 21, 2010, 07:08 PM
Awesome!

Korias
Apr 21, 2010, 07:23 PM
Which reminds me, Valk, I updated that Team Only thread about the OC since that's what I'm currently working on, and any feedback would be appreciated as I keep tinkering.

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 07:28 PM
Will try to make some time to reply to it. Been meaning to, just haven't had time... Two papers, a final, a project, the Wiki, 1.3, and design for another project. I'm swamped. :lol:

Korias
Apr 21, 2010, 07:31 PM
Will try to make some time to reply to it. Been meaning to, just haven't had time... Two papers, a final, a project, the Wiki, 1.3, and design for another project. I'm swamped. :lol:

For crying out loud how do you still manage to mod with all of that? Just thinking about that much work makes me want to go :cry:

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 07:33 PM
I honestly have not found time to work on 1.3 for the past week. What little time I have has gone to the wiki; Need to get it polished to coincide with 1.3, and I can work on that in small chunks. ;)

sinner003
Apr 21, 2010, 09:49 PM
[QUOTE=Valkrionn;9119868]I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.




basically, went i meant was...only the elohim, because of their leaders tolerance trait, can keep a city that has been conquered with the original civilization mechanics...i.e. only they can capture a belseraph city and build freaks, or capture a clan city and build a warren, whereas if another civ did that, it would build their civ's stuff...so, i was wondering if you were including more leaders with that trait, or a tech or promotion so that the unit or such who conquered a city could have that same tolerance ability.

sinner003
Apr 21, 2010, 09:51 PM
I honestly have not found time to work on 1.3 for the past week. What little time I have has gone to the wiki; Need to get it polished to coincide with 1.3, and I can work on that in small chunks. ;)

i might be able to help with the wiki...dont know much about creating one, but i can create or add flavor text and such if you'd have me...

Valkrionn
Apr 21, 2010, 10:06 PM
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

basically, went i meant was...only the elohim, because of their leaders tolerance trait, can keep a city that has been conquered with the original civilization mechanics...i.e. only they can capture a belseraph city and build freaks, or capture a clan city and build a warren, whereas if another civ did that, it would build their civ's stuff...so, i was wondering if you were including more leaders with that trait, or a tech or promotion so that the unit or such who conquered a city could have that same tolerance ability.

First off, in RifE (as with FF) the Elohim as a whole do not have Tolerant. The one leader, Thessalonica, does, but the others do not.

Tolerant was split into two traits, Tolerant and Conqueror... Same thing, just a different name and a vastly different feel for the leader as a result.

Decius (Malakim/Bannor/Calabim) and Father Kasghenal (Jotnar) have Conqueror, and Thessalonica (Elohim) and Prime Minister Esirce (Grigori) have Tolerant.


There may be a few more leaders with it, but it will never be a common trait.

i might be able to help with the wiki...dont know much about creating one, but i can create or add flavor text and such if you'd have me...

At this point, I think we have enough people contributing. Now that templates are made and others are learning how to use them correctly, I am able to move back and just check to make sure it's added correctly, don't have to spend much time on it. Which is good, as finals are coming up. :lol: