RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback [Archive] - Page 7

Oranos

Apr 26, 2010, 11:09 AM

rchon;9132868']http://j.imagehost.org/0752/War_Wheel.jpg

Modeled this up to for the fun of it, an idea I had for awhile now. A steam powered large monowheel with a side car which Ive named a War Wheel

In game I figured this would be a Mechanos late game mounted unit, that you get access to when you have researched Steam Power, Blasting Powder and Machinery. It would not be a Dragoon replacer but a new unit altogether.

Sorta a Mechanos late game, final tech tree heavy cavalry/mounted unit cause Knights really don't suit them honestly as an industrious steampunk nation.

And unlike Dragoons, the War Wheel doesn't come in groups, it is just the 1 unit on its own though, so maybe more firepower traded in for fact that its more venerable. As a different kinda addition to make it a bit more unique, it could possibly have a 1 unit carry space and a movement of 4-5.

Also thought the possibility that it counts as a normal unit and not a national meaning you can build as many as you want. Since ATM the race is lacking any sort of actual machines and contraptions that they can field in large numbers beyond 4.

And possibly a higher attack strength and ranged score then a Dragoon, maybe with extra bonuses against siege weapons to fill a different role as to not make Dragoons redundant,

And also maybe it could get passive penalties or bonuses for the type of terrain its on, so flat ground like glassland, plains, deserts, ect give it bonuses to generally everything while things like hills, snow , forests and jungles give it equally negative bonuses to the same stats.

So yeah in essence this is a Mechanos version of a attack and scout bike.

I was imagining the uniforms for the drivers would look sorta like British soldiers from the Zulu war period as seen in this link.

http://www.miniatures.de/britain/esci-p212-british-zulu-war-infantry-command.jpg

And here is the file for the War Wheel containing the 3D model in the following formats, C4D, 3DS and OBJ for those willing to give it a good and add it in.

http://www.mediafire.com/?k2gyrj35cjm

Should be easy to animate since the only things that need to turn are the highlighted green wheels and cogs in the image post and zip file, whenever it moves around. And possible steam puffs from the boilers chimneys and of course a cannon muzzle flash.

The two occupants don't have to move at all I believe. That is amazing! If I knew how to animate, I'd do it myself, but I have the coding skills of a rock. I agree with the penalties, though they should be more severe in terrain such as jungle or marsh, and I think hills, as long as there is no forest, should be neutral.
EDIT: I also like the idea of a carrying capacity of 1, though it should be restricted to infantry only. No howitzers on the bike.

hix

Apr 26, 2010, 04:11 PM

@isthmus...The only patch I saw on the site was the trade routes patch....is that what you're talking about? Thanks for the help.

/]rchon

Apr 28, 2010, 02:08 AM

http://j.imagehost.org/0871/War_Wheel2.jpg

Pardon all my spam lately ^^;

Ive gotten around to actually texturing the model properly using UVs and did the drivers so now its in a ready to animate stage.

Heres the file including the textures for anyone wanting to take up the task.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ed5yk3ykm2m

Also the only things that need animating are the 3 treaded cogs/wheels when the thing moves or fires and rolls backwards a little bit, and of course explosion and smoke emitters. The crew can remain static as is.

Game wise I also figured when its on any terrain with roads or railroads present it'd get bonus stacking movement points ontop of whatever movement bonus or penalty its taking from the current terrain. So yeah it'd be extra fast on roads and railroads which makes sense it being a motor vehicle.

Possibly +50% vs Mounted Units and Siege Units

And also was thinking since looking at its design it could easily run people down and medium sized creatures to, it could possibly have a small collateral damage rating of like 10-15%

Also I did this, after you mentioned that they are needing some more actual aircraft, I know you were planning on using the Dune Thopters, Valkrionn but I think this might be better suited.

Modeled it up shortly after the Warwheel, a type of gyrocopter/triplane hybrid.

http://j.imagehost.org/0521/Aerogyro.jpg

Also don't fret about the unit art and selection portrait images for these units Ive made, Ill be making and handling those, just gotta know how big must they be and what format?

Oranos

Apr 29, 2010, 11:21 AM

Hey Valk, on the aircraft note, I noticed in some older posts people complaining about how easy it is to get blimps. What with their carrying capacity and their flight, it makes early conquest a bit too easy. Would there be some way to just eliminate their carrying capacity, so you have to wait for dirigible fleets to carry armies into battle?

Valkrionn

Apr 29, 2010, 11:23 AM

lordrune

Apr 29, 2010, 02:06 PM

Just a couple of general comments about the mod...

1) With common bonuses from improvements and buildings, it seems to me that in the mid to late game, the gold costs of techs and the hammer costs of units and buildings (even high-end ones) becomes a little bit trivial. Things start 'accelerating' and your toys become obsolete before you really have a chance to use them :)
This isn't a problem in the early game, it's only when you have lots of improved tiles being worked by lots of people with your high-health high-happy high-bonused cities. Guilds can magnify the problem especially if your empire is big, due to the exponential effect of their bonuses combined with new spawning resources.

2) Kelp and reefs slow down ship movement, too much. In general, compared to land movement, moving by sea is now slow and cumbersome. Could something be done to change the way they spawn, so it forces gaps?
Also, with the deep ocean, ocean-going vessels should get higher movement.

Elwist

Apr 29, 2010, 03:24 PM

I feel a bit the same about the Kelp. What i'd like to see is an ability on ships that let them ignore the kelp, or at least a race that could go through it normally similar to elves and forests on the land.

isthmus

Apr 29, 2010, 05:27 PM

I suppose you could have smaller ships like the caravel, privateer, carrack etc be immune to terrain effects, or just ignore kelp/reef movement penalty if that's possible. (I'd prefer immune though since you can hide out in reefs without damage, I think?)
Give heavier ships higher strength and you have the mobility versus power choice to make, but only in kelp/reefs. The speed of the two types of ships will be matched out in the ocean so you'll want to attack heavy ships near the coast by using ranged attacks and using your mobility to escape.

On the other hand, this might be too complicated an idea for the AI which has to be taught to create a balanced fleet and use it well. In my experience in FfH games the naval combat has been pretty weak because the AI can't really coordinate navy and naval landings very well.

Oranos

Apr 29, 2010, 07:53 PM

sinner003

Apr 29, 2010, 09:21 PM

i have a question, if i install fall further, or rise from erebus, will it permanently change fall from heaven 2?

or will it create a new version with everything?

sinner003

Apr 29, 2010, 09:28 PM

also, in its features, why does it say it adds things like Seven Pines, Bradeline's Well, explorable lairs, and other things that fall from heaven 2 already has?

lordrune

Apr 29, 2010, 09:43 PM

Valkrionn

Apr 29, 2010, 09:48 PM

i have a question, if i install fall further, or rise from erebus, will it permanently change fall from heaven 2?

or will it create a new version with everything?

Fall Further, Rise From Erebus, WildMana, and Orbus (maybe others I dont know about), are all their own mods, so they install into their own directories (Assuming you pick the default directories to install to, of course :D ) and you can still play the original FFH2 mod afterward.

What Lordrune said. It is a full install (as is FF, and Orbis, and Wild Mana; All the major FfH mods), so it does not conflict with FfH in any way. Aside from saved options if you switch between mods, which is why we advice you to start a "Play Now" game anytime you switch mods; Wipes the saved options. Don't have to play it, just let the map load and then quit. ;)

also, in its features, why does it say it adds things like Seven Pines, Bradeline's Well, explorable lairs, and other things that fall from heaven 2 already has?

Because they were added in FF first, and then made their way into FfH. Ice Mana is the same; Was added in FF first.

Evalis

Apr 30, 2010, 04:26 PM

Valkrionn

Apr 30, 2010, 04:48 PM

The Legion of D'Tesh using slaves to strengthen their cities may be a bit overpowered. This is especially true if you happen to adopt undercouncil. If someone else votes for the ability to hire slaves in cities, then it's game right there. It might be better if they had to construct citizens in their cities, or at the very least have their slavery generation chances reduced to normal (ei: requiring slavery). So far.. they play really wierd.. you either die instantly in the beginning or you trounced everying after researching way of the wicked and necromancy. Perhaps there could be a ritual that costs x ammount of gold +x number of turns to turn each slave into a citizen?

They cannot buy slaves via the Undercouncil resolution. That was an exploit I brought up to the original creator within a few hours of their original release; Been impossible since then. If you can, it's a bug and needs to be fixed.

Requiring Slavery in order to grow would be a deathblow. Far too expensive for such a vital function.

Being able to construct their citizens makes them too similar to the Scions, which is something that REALLY needs to be avoided. It also breaks the flavor of converting enemies into your citizens.

I did get a few ideas while making this post though, so let's see what you all think. ;)

First off, they will become limited in number of cities. Their settlers will be limited based on the number of cities. Limits the number you build normally, but still allows you to conquer new ones.
Second, use the City Size code Opera coded a while back. Can add new UB's which allow the city to become larger (or just add it to existing buildings); Palace would grant a large amount (~20pop); Other cities would be limited to around 6 until you have some buildings. This limits the amount of population you can have in any one city, while still preserving the "no unhappiness, no unhealth" aspect of the civ, and helping to differentiate them from the Scions. I'm thinking that one of their later buildings will end up removing the cap, or making it fairly high. Mostly to keep them from early game runaway growth.
Third, allow the Crypt (unique improvement, analogous to the quarry) to occasionally spawn a slave (freshly animated corpse from the Crypt). In return, yields are reduced somewhat. Gives you a flavorful method of gaining population without warfare, though you'll still want to wage many wars.

Jheral

Apr 30, 2010, 05:20 PM

I did get a few ideas while making this post though, so let's see what you all think. ;)

First off, they will become limited in number of cities. Their settlers will be limited based on the number of cities. Limits the number you build normally, but still allows you to conquer new ones.
Second, use the City Size code Opera coded a while back. Can add new UB's which allow the city to become larger (or just add it to existing buildings); Palace would grant a large amount (~20pop); Other cities would be limited to around 6 until you have some buildings. This limits the amount of population you can have in any one city, while still preserving the "no unhappiness, no unhealth" aspect of the civ, and helping to differentiate them from the Scions. I'm thinking that one of their later buildings will end up removing the cap, or making it fairly high. Mostly to keep them from early game runaway growth.
Third, allow the Crypt (unique improvement, analogous to the quarry) to occasionally spawn a slave (freshly animated corpse from the Crypt). In return, yields are reduced somewhat. Gives you a flavorful method of gaining population without warfare, though you'll still want to wage many wars.

Well, you did say 'what you all think', so...

Limiting the number of cities sounds like a good idea (since they're kind of constructed around the idea of using a small number of very large cities).

A limit on population, while I generally think it would be a good idea (for regular civs, as well, but that's another matter entirely), might clash with that particular aspect of the Legion, though. Still, if the limits weren't set too low, it could work well.

The thought that pops into my head while reading the last one is 'Human farm' for some reason... :p

Anyway, I could easily see a player setting up forts for territory control, and spamming them across entire continents, outside the cities' BFCs. I don't know whether that would be too big a problem, though. It would certainly reward agressive expansion, at least, which is another reason for war. Maybe they could be limited to only generating slaves while being worked by a city, though.

Evalis

Apr 30, 2010, 05:22 PM

That seems fair. I didn't realize they couldn't buy slaves. The computer is usually dead before they switch. The city limit seems reasonable. Considering building the great library with scholarship civic + crown of akharam in an 86 population city just seems.. wrong. I like the autospawning of slaves too. So they don't get caught in a death cycle of they have strong opponents next to them.

Valkrionn

Apr 30, 2010, 06:35 PM

Well, you did say 'what you all think', so...

Of course. ;)

Limiting the number of cities sounds like a good idea (since they're kind of constructed around the idea of using a small number of very large cities).

Yeah, I've had the plan for a few weeks (added the tag needed a while back), just haven't implemented it yet.

A limit on population, while I generally think it would be a good idea (for regular civs, as well, but that's another matter entirely), might clash with that particular aspect of the Legion, though. Still, if the limits weren't set too low, it could work well.

The limits wouldn't be very low (Start around 6, but up with each UB, particularly along the magic line), and would end up very high. Just a manner to control the rate a city is able to grow... No size 100 city on turn 120 because you got lucky with a few wars during the worldspell.

The thought that pops into my head while reading the last one is 'Human farm' for some reason... :p

Hehe, close. Graveyard though... So more of a factory. Dig up the body, animate, send to the city.

Anyway, I could easily see a player setting up forts for territory control, and spamming them across entire continents, outside the cities' BFCs. I don't know whether that would be too big a problem, though. It would certainly reward agressive expansion, at least, which is another reason for war. Maybe they could be limited to only generating slaves while being worked by a city, though.

That is the goal, yes. One thing I neglected to mention (was already discussed in the test group); The D'tesh Fort line (Mausoleums, as of now not in the main version and added for art purposes) are going to be modified a bit. Faster upgrade speed (25-50% faster), stronger culture (main source of expansion), lower defense (ruined building). So you can take and hold territory better, but you need a few units on the fort.

Spawning slaves only while it's being worked should be possible; I'll look into it. If it mandates using python to do it, though, I probably won't... For now, it's possible using XML. Same setup as a lair, just set to spawn for the D'tesh rather than a barb civ.

That seems fair. I didn't realize they couldn't buy slaves. The computer is usually dead before they switch. The city limit seems reasonable. Considering building the great library with scholarship civic + crown of akharam in an 86 population city just seems.. wrong. I like the autospawning of slaves too. So they don't get caught in a death cycle of they have strong opponents next to them.

Yeah, slave buying was horribly op for them. I went from 3 cities, total of around 40 pop (this was before the worldspell, which helps massively) to 12 cities of over 100 pop each. In like 50 turns. Was completely ridiculous. :lol:

lordrune

Apr 30, 2010, 06:37 PM

Anyway, I could easily see a player setting up forts for territory control, and spamming them across entire continents, outside the cities' BFCs. I don't know whether that would be too big a problem, though. It would certainly reward agressive expansion, at least, which is another reason for war. Maybe they could be limited to only generating slaves while being worked by a city, though.

That would be the answer to that one, yeah. You don't want to have sprawling massed farms of crypts spawning an effectively infinite source of slaves.

If you want to balance growth of a Fallow civ (e.g. like Scions) without having it being situation-dependent (e.g. all the other ones) you need to have their growth mechanic being approximated by worked tiles, as you suggest.

I've got no idea how you'd make the AI handle this, though.

Valkrionn

Apr 30, 2010, 06:40 PM

That would be the answer to that one, yeah. You don't want to have sprawling massed farms of crypts spawning an effectively infinite source of slaves.

If you want to balance growth of a Fallow civ (e.g. like Scions) without having it being situation-dependent (e.g. all the other ones) you need to have their growth mechanic being approximated by worked tiles, as you suggest.

I've got no idea how you'd make the AI handle this, though.

If done, it would be by adding an xml tag (bMustBeWorked, something like that) requiring the plot to be worked for the unit to spawn. Which means I can modify the AI which selects what plot to work to take it into account.

So basically, this is one idea where you shouldn't need to worry too badly about the AI.

lordrune

Apr 30, 2010, 06:55 PM

If done, it would be by adding an xml tag (bMustBeWorked, something like that) requiring the plot to be worked for the unit to spawn. Which means I can modify the AI which selects what plot to work to take it into account.

So basically, this is one idea where you shouldn't need to worry too badly about the AI.

Cool, so if the AI builds the crypts, it will use them - sounds good.
I've never actually seen D'Tesh last past the early turns in my games. The effective base warrior strength of 2 (1 + Death Affinity) just isn't enough to reliably hold a Cyclops or Minotaur, even with the defense bonus of the D'Tesh capital. So I've never seen how the AI develops its D'Tesh empires :)
If their warriors got a bonus +1 defense strength it might help their survivability.

Maybe you could give a base 'crypt' effect to the capital city itself - maybe a third as much as Awakened spawning or something, and fixed, based on game speed of course. Just to aid against stagnation...

Valkrionn

Apr 30, 2010, 07:15 PM

Cool, so if the AI builds the crypts, it will use them - sounds good.
I've never actually seen D'Tesh last past the early turns in my games. The effective base warrior strength of 2 (1 + Death Affinity) just isn't enough to reliably hold a Cyclops or Minotaur, even with the defense bonus of the D'Tesh capital. So I've never seen how the AI develops its D'Tesh empires :)
If their warriors got a bonus +1 defense strength it might help their survivability.

Maybe you could give a base 'crypt' effect to the capital city itself - maybe a third as much as Awakened spawning or something, and fixed, based on game speed of course. Just to aid against stagnation...

The warriors won't get any bonus (melee line is meant to be weak for them). They'll be getting an early archery unit (well, archer unit for now; Will be a defensive unit, put it that way) to go along with the Recon and Arcane focuses. So they'll be able to defend themselves, just not via melee units. ;)

As for a crypt effect to the capital... No. Never. That brings them too close to the Scions, and that is a bad thing.

lordrune

Apr 30, 2010, 07:46 PM

As for a crypt effect to the capital... No. Never. That brings them too close to the Scions, and that is a bad thing.

It might be a bad thing, but it could also be the lesser of two evils.

If you can get an alternative growth mechanic that is balanced for the D'Tesh, and reliable enough that the AI can work it (and maybe the crypts are the answer), then alls well and good. As the present situation stands though, I just get disappointed when the D'Tesh are in the game, because I know that 9 times out of ten they're either going to die early, or live (un-live :D ) a history of irrelevance. And that's a waste of an opponent.

Valkrionn

Apr 30, 2010, 08:20 PM

It might be a bad thing, but it could also be the lesser of two evils.

If you can get an alternative growth mechanic that is balanced for the D'Tesh, and reliable enough that the AI can work it (and maybe the crypts are the answer), then alls well and good. As the present situation stands though, I just get disappointed when the D'Tesh are in the game, because I know that 9 times out of ten they're either going to die early, or live (un-live :D ) a history of irrelevance. And that's a waste of an opponent.

It does not matter if it's the lesser of two evils. It's honestly not something I would ever consider adding. :p

The entire point of RifE is to INCREASE flavor and gameplay differences, not create similarities.

What I really need to do is look at making bAddToCity an aspect of the unit, rather than a spell (and thereby making a new action button, like found city and so on; We'll see how that goes). Then have a new AI available to any unit with that tag, which evaluates which city can best use a new pop point and sends it to that city (would take into account the distances involved, so nearer cities are weighted higher).

If I (or we, something that either myself or Grey Fox could do. Or Opera, for that matter) get that working, the D'tesh would be MUCH better as an AI civ. As would the Scions.

Edit: Actually, while making the MustBeWorked tag I could make some new spawn tags as well... iPointsRequired, and iPointsPerTurn. This way it's not by chance, it's entirely incremental and points are earned while working the plot. Makes it something that can be balanced easily, and planned for.

Oranos

Apr 30, 2010, 08:50 PM

That would be the answer to that one, yeah. You don't want to have sprawling massed farms of crypts spawning an effectively infinite source of slaves.

If you want to balance growth of a Fallow civ (e.g. like Scions) without having it being situation-dependent (e.g. all the other ones) you need to have their growth mechanic being approximated by worked tiles, as you suggest.

I've got no idea how you'd make the AI handle this, though.

You would need to make the improvement give production or economic bonuses, to entice the computer into building the improvement.

Edit: I made this post before any of your posts had showed up, Valk, not sure what happened there.

Valkrionn

Apr 30, 2010, 08:51 PM

You would need to make the improvement give production or economic bonuses, to entice the computer into building the improvement.

Like I replied, not at all. Any tag used would be in the DLL, and would be accounted for in the AI citizen management code.

Randomness

May 02, 2010, 11:37 AM

Valkrionn

May 02, 2010, 12:04 PM

It would probably be good if crypts gave slaves with diminishing chances every time. This way, crypt spawning would help early game and allow them to get powerfull, but force them to use their power in conquest in the later game. It also makes more sents (how many bodies do you think they can fit into one graveyard?).

Would be easily possible if I make new tags for it, which I intend to do. It would be incremental (no chance), but could increase the cost each time. Like with Adventurers, basically.

25Hour

May 02, 2010, 04:39 PM

It might be a bad thing, but it could also be the lesser of two evils.

If you can get an alternative growth mechanic that is balanced for the D'Tesh, and reliable enough that the AI can work it (and maybe the crypts are the answer), then alls well and good. As the present situation stands though, I just get disappointed when the D'Tesh are in the game, because I know that 9 times out of ten they're either going to die early, or live (un-live :D ) a history of irrelevance. And that's a waste of an opponent.

Oddly enough, I find that myself, I tend to do fairly well just with the slaves generated by killing barbarians who are attacking me. Unless I'm wiped out entirely, natch, but that's a whole nother subject. :lol:

Hmm... as for what the D'Tesh might be able to get that helps them with peaceful population production early on, what about a fairly large increase to slaving-chance when they defeat opponents in the capital city? It could be done rather easily via an autoacquire promotion requiring the obsidian spire, and would really only come into play to a significant extent in the early game, when the barbarians are your main opponents. It would also maintain the crucial distinction between D'Tesh and Scions in terms of how they get their population.

Swinkscalibur

May 02, 2010, 07:24 PM

Hmm... as for what the D'Tesh might be able to get that helps them with peaceful population production early on, what about a fairly large increase to slaving-chance when they defeat opponents in the capital city? It could be done rather easily via an autoacquire promotion requiring the obsidian spire, and would really only come into play to a significant extent in the early game, when the barbarians are your main opponents. It would also maintain the crucial distinction between D'Tesh and Scions in terms of how they get their population.

I agree with this idea. Not that I am entirely opposed to the other idea, in fact it might be neat to have both work together.

Valkrionn

May 02, 2010, 07:27 PM

Oddly enough, I find that myself, I tend to do fairly well just with the slaves generated by killing barbarians who are attacking me. Unless I'm wiped out entirely, natch, but that's a whole nother subject. :lol:

Hmm... as for what the D'Tesh might be able to get that helps them with peaceful population production early on, what about a fairly large increase to slaving-chance when they defeat opponents in the capital city? It could be done rather easily via an autoacquire promotion requiring the obsidian spire, and would really only come into play to a significant extent in the early game, when the barbarians are your main opponents. It would also maintain the crucial distinction between D'Tesh and Scions in terms of how they get their population.

I agree with this idea. Not that I am entirely opposed to the other idea, in fact it might be neat to have both work together.

Personally, I don't really care for it. Primarily because it absolutely forces you to allow the enemy to attack you for best results; No taking the fight to them, no fighting outside of your city.

fallen_addict

May 03, 2010, 01:20 AM

I went to the dictionary and checked up 'AWESOME' and found: 'adjective' - OR SUM - something similar in coolness to Fall from Heaven II.

Then I looked up 'AWESOMER' and found: Imagine Fall from Heaven II but with more cool stuff. That's RiFe.

WAY WAY cool.

just want to say WOW and thank you to the RiFe team for creating such a Mod. I check back daily for updates.

/]rchon

May 03, 2010, 07:09 AM

Ok thought Id share a little news from my end since my last post, the new Goliath you requested is at about 50% on the texturing, I might actually download and try and rig and animate it in Blender.

But yes expect a fully done Goliath sometime soon.

Also I was looking over the land bound lizard races and noticed they used horses and normal horse cavalry, I was figuring for the lizard people and races it'd simpily be far cooler if they had dino riders and dinosaurs for mounted cavalry.

Id be happy to try and model some of those up if thats a possibility, Id just need a list of what cavalry types and dinos to use if it can be done :3

Ive been modeling a few machines lately so something organic could be interesting and fun.

shoggi

May 03, 2010, 07:37 AM

they actually have dinos and dino rider if i remember right.
if you only watch the units in the pedia it shows the standard graphic, because the unique graphic is bound to the race promotion which they only get when you start a game with them.

Grey Fox

May 03, 2010, 11:06 AM

Lizardmen riding dinosaurs feels a bit like humans riding monkies though :D

Valkrionn

May 03, 2010, 11:27 AM

Yes, but it's what they are already riding. :p

There may be a broken art reference (was in Wild Mana, only reason I'd think of it); I'll check the horseman.

OpheliaImmortal

May 03, 2010, 04:35 PM

A simple idea, mainly to help with flavour. Any consideration in reducing the tech requirements to aquire some of the non Kilmorph or Way of the Forests religions? It makes it nearly impossible for the two most dynamic religions to be relevant, unless founded by a player. Code of Laws/ Knowledge of the Ether are already drastically more expensive techs then the prereqs for Kilmorph/forests/octopus. Adding the way of the wicked of the wise makes the price prohibitive for the ai, and the Good vs Evil theme in the game is hampered, imo, when Everyone is adopting neutral religions. If this is a balance consideration, would it be possible to code it so the AI would have different tech requirements for these religions then humans?

I'm new to the forums, but I have played quite a few games, and I do love your mod, just an idea. When I found 'my' religion, i've been shamelessly world editing the other holy cities into the civs who seem like they should have them and it makes it.. exciting :)

Valkrionn

May 03, 2010, 04:58 PM

Not really, no. We could have the AI discover them easier, but that requires a lot of hardcoding and not something I want; The AI will go after religions more intelligently next version (thanks to 7ate9tin11s).

FoL will also be equal in cost with OO and RoK (currently a bit more expensive).

OpheliaImmortal

May 03, 2010, 05:09 PM

Sounds like great solution, without being akward like my idea.

Valkrionn

May 03, 2010, 05:14 PM

The religions are broken into several 'tiers' based on when they come in....

Early

FoL
OO
RoK

Early-Mid

White Hand
Airandamar

Mid

Order
AV

Mid-Late

Empy
Esus

isthmus

May 03, 2010, 06:02 PM

The religions are broken into several 'tiers' based on when they come in....

Early

FoL
OO
RoK

Early-Mid

White Hand
Airandamar

Mid

Order
AV

Mid-Late

Empy
Esus

Does this have any bearing on the relative strength of the religion and related bonuses or is it just an organisational thing? The two late religions are pretty underwhelming, (apart from Chalid, he's godlike) but I guess you knew that already right? :) I never see the AI spam radiant guard or nightwatch like they do SoK or diseased corpses...

Is the new religion AI in the tester's version? I've noticed a greater variety of religions recently, although I could just be getting lucky :P

Valkrionn

May 03, 2010, 06:08 PM

isthmus

May 03, 2010, 06:29 PM

Well, both. Keep in mind, both religions are attached to their councils as well... And Esus will be getting a Guild, while Empy will likely get something if Xienwolf finishes the mechanic.

It is not yet, but hopefully will be soon... After today, I am officially done with finals. ;)

They're attached? I thought the councils were founded at the two WotWs not honor and deception now. Only Chalid has any influence on his council, I think.
Forgot about the Esus guild :) Will it run as a Guild and religion both at the same time or is just being moved to a more appropriate category?

I've always seen Empy as a sort of reneissance-period style of new thinking and philosophy, with particular focus on arts, architecture and all that jazz. More of a European development of thinking than the Eastern style at any rate. It could possibly have a whole set of unique buildings or mechanics that relate to enhancing cities or improved great people (making something like a better acadamy or other buildings for other specialists) rather than having top tier religious units as such.

If Xienwolf's cooking up something, it's likely to be pretty epic though. :)

Valkrionn

May 03, 2010, 06:33 PM

They're attached? I thought the councils were founded at the two WotWs not honor and deception now. Only Chalid has any influence on his council, I think.
Forgot about the Esus guild :) Will it run as a Guild and religion both at the same time or is just being moved to a more appropriate category?

I've always seen Empy as a sort of reneissance-period style of new thinking and philosophy, with particular focus on arts, architecture and all that jazz. More of a European development of thinking than the Eastern style at any rate. It could possibly have a whole set of unique buildings or mechanics that relate to enhancing cities or improved great people (making something like a better acadamy or other buildings for other specialists) rather than having top tier religious units as such.

If Xienwolf's cooking up something, it's likely to be pretty epic though. :)

Well, have a reason to run them. I thought Esus had a boost for it's council? Even if not, invisibility within your borders is a very good thing.

Esus will be both a religion and a guild. They'll go hand in hand, but you can spread one without the other (all hypothetical for now).

Empy I have ideas for. It DOES involve improving your empire, it does NOT involve new buildings or units. :p

OpheliaImmortal

May 03, 2010, 06:42 PM

An interesting idea for council of esus, would be to have it enable the BTS espionage options, if it was your state religion.

isthmus

May 03, 2010, 06:46 PM

Valkrionn

May 03, 2010, 06:56 PM

I think it would have to be an entirely reworked system; I was never a fan of it - too much micro for very little gain - and it was a pain having your cities poisoned every few turns. It was probably cut for a good reason..
Orbis has reintroduced it though, think Esus has some special bonuses to the espionage units in that modmod. Never really used in in Orbis either though :)

I agree, I don't particularly care for the mechanic as done in BtS. We have a few ideas (I've actually drawn up a full design doc), but aren't sure if we'll do it or not.

Oranos

May 03, 2010, 11:07 PM

Valkrionn

May 03, 2010, 11:13 PM

I've got a couple ideas about the Mechanos. I read somewhere that you're making the Mechanos agnostic and removing Ordo. I don't mind the removal of Ordo, though I would like to see them keep the techpriests and adeptus units. If that's planned, all the better. I would also like to see them remain atheistic. So no religion spread into their territory and maybe a negative relations hit with any non agnostic leaders. I would also like them to be able to establish trade routes via the air. With all their air ships, it doesn't really make sense that they wouldn't trade via the air.

Yes, Ordo will be gone.
Yes, adeptus and techpriests will remain part of the Mechanos; Moving back to a version closer to the original, in Orbis.
They will not be fully agnostic. No, I cannot discuss that further at this time. :p
Not sure what you mean by 'aerial trade routes'

Oranos

May 03, 2010, 11:38 PM

Not sure what you mean by 'aerial trade routes'

Meaning they don't need their cities connected by roads, provided they have x building built. Similar to the airports in vanilla civ, though I would say no airlifting.

isthmus

May 04, 2010, 04:34 AM

Meaning they don't need their cities connected by roads, provided they have x building built. Similar to the airports in vanilla civ, though I would say no airlifting.

Say, like an aerodrome building or something?
It would be cool as a little extra flavour but the mechanos don't really play to the style of having very far away cities like, say the Austrin do, so functionally, it would only add in an extra trade route if implemented as you say. I suppose it's a handy extra for expansion onto a new landmass but you should really have astronomy by then.

You could have it as a sort of master building for air units or something, allowing you to purchase some air specific promos to differentiate them from just ships with flying promo.

/]rchon

May 04, 2010, 08:18 AM

On the subject of the Mechanos I just finished up texturing the new Goliath model for you's to see, I ditched the 2 arm cannons in favor of just the chest one to make animation much easier.

Also Ive hit my damn cap limit for the month putting me on dial up speed till next month and my net is unstable as is, so no downloading Blender or animating this from me :C

Hopefully someone might be able to pick up that task, I can send over the file if noted.

I do hope I got a giant imposing look and style down for the thing at least :P

Also might scaled down versions of this be used for the Vultures to?

Oranos

May 04, 2010, 01:51 PM

Say, like an aerodrome building or something?
It would be cool as a little extra flavour but the mechanos don't really play to the style of having very far away cities like, say the Austrin do, so functionally, it would only add in an extra trade route if implemented as you say. I suppose it's a handy extra for expansion onto a new landmass but you should really have astronomy by then.

You could have it as a sort of master building for air units or something, allowing you to purchase some air specific promos to differentiate them from just ships with flying promo.

You make a good point about it being almost obsolete. With the air specific promos the trade route could just be an added bonus.

Evalis

May 06, 2010, 01:07 PM

Evalis

May 06, 2010, 01:22 PM

On another note.. why do mechanos 'start' with refined mana? Doesn't that mean all of their buildings are automatically powered? Shouldn't they have to find a mana node to do this with first?

Evalis

May 06, 2010, 01:27 PM

ooo and I just thought of something - that might help the computer out a lot too. Make units with sun I and water I have a button that makes them auto transform to either plains or grassland. The nations that benefit from wintery landscapes or desert landscapes already automatically transform. This autospell should function while in a city to automatically terraform surrounding terrain to that type.

Valkrionn

May 06, 2010, 01:32 PM

Two comments here.. first, don't forget to change the commerce bonus back to 12 for the mechanos palace once they lose ordo (which normally provided them with that extra research). Also.. is it possible to make another fishing boat at say optics or something that can make fishing nets without dying? It's a huge micromanagement pain trying to put fishing boats everywhere, plus many cities have higher than 30 production at this point and producing a fishing boat is often a waste of a turn.

By the way.. the king fisherman boat is a little slow.. could we up the speed to 4? Sometimes it takes 13-20 turns to reach a city =/

Mechanos will be fully updated to account for the lack of Ordo.

Will not be adding a permanent fishing boat... Only the Lanun get that.

Not really worried about the King Fisher either, as that guild will be gone soon enough.

On another note.. why do mechanos 'start' with refined mana? Doesn't that mean all of their buildings are automatically powered? Shouldn't they have to find a mana node to do this with first?

The buildings are only powered once they get the proper tech/build proper building.

ooo and I just thought of something - that might help the computer out a lot too. Make units with sun I and water I have a button that makes them auto transform to either plains or grassland. The nations that benefit from wintery landscapes or desert landscapes already automatically transform. This autospell should function while in a city to automatically terraform surrounding terrain to that type.

Autoterraform does not function like that. It's a rather simple function, and is only doable on a civ-wide scale.

I have ideas for terraforming anyway. ;)

Evalis

May 06, 2010, 01:54 PM

The buildings are only powered once they get the proper tech/build proper building.

That's not what I meant.. I mean.. why do their buildings even require refined mana for power when they start with it? Seems sort of redundant no? The only possible time this would come into effect is if they lost their palace.. and let's face it losing your capital pretty much means you're dead already.

isthmus

May 06, 2010, 02:04 PM

I agree, it also seems a bit off that they get the first level of their affinity free from turn one as well.
Oh, and I think the palace moves to a different city when the capital gets captured so you do keep your mana.

Evalis

May 06, 2010, 02:47 PM

Actually I think I just figured out the use for this.. still not sure if they should start with it though.. but if you are a tolerant race and take over a city you wouldn't get the power for their buildings.

Valkrionn

May 06, 2010, 04:22 PM

That's not what I meant.. I mean.. why do their buildings even require refined mana for power when they start with it? Seems sort of redundant no? The only possible time this would come into effect is if they lost their palace.. and let's face it losing your capital pretty much means you're dead already.

You already hit the nail on the head: Tolerant and Conqueror.

I agree, it also seems a bit off that they get the first level of their affinity free from turn one as well.
Oh, and I think the palace moves to a different city when the capital gets captured so you do keep your mana.

That's actually rather required with the way their affinity works.

sinner003

May 07, 2010, 04:16 PM

what does the Conqueror trait do?
is it the same as tolerant, and does anyone get the tolerant trait now that its been taken from the elohim in fall further?

Valkrionn

May 07, 2010, 04:47 PM

what does the Conqueror trait do?
is it the same as tolerant, and does anyone get the tolerant trait now that its been taken from the elohim in fall further?

Same as tolerant, just a different name to represent a different reasoning.

Tolerant is still possessed by a single Elohim leader (Thessalonica) and by Prime Minister Esirce (Grigori leader).

Conqueror is used by Decius (Malakim, Calabim, Bannor) and Father Kasghenal (Jotnar).

joemag

May 10, 2010, 06:19 PM

Valkrionn

May 10, 2010, 06:35 PM

Two things I am not crazy about:
1. Mahala's portrait change. I think the old one just suited the image of rough-and-wild Doviello better.
2. Elk being able to attack.

One thing I am bitter about:
Minotaurs spawning before turn 50, wiping out entire defenses without taking a scratch (ie. how I lost a few minutes ago). Really Bhall should be spawning strength 3 move 1 units then instead of strength 4 move 2.

I'm not too fond of the 'new' portrait for her either. But I prefer it to the old one... Many people didn't even realize she was female.

All animals can attack now. Just part of the overall design, animals are not passive.

As I've said many times, the entire barb system will be redone. ;)

joemag

May 10, 2010, 07:00 PM

Even elephants? I'm all for aggressive animals and more variety (which I quite like), but I see elk as skittish and not prone to attacking really. Also, you can't capture mana guardians even if they are animals?

Valkrionn

May 10, 2010, 07:13 PM

Yes, even Elephants.

And you should be able to capture animal mana guardians. I know you can in my version. Might be something to do with Held, which they no longer have in the test version... They are leashed, can walk in the 8 tiles immediately around the mana and attack one tile farther.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 01:39 AM

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 01:41 AM

When on turn 63 an entire garrison of my only kuriotate capital was eaten by stray mistform and then that Dantganis the Rotten Corpse or whatever (not yet listed in pedia) marched straight towards it...

But for some reasons he did not razed it, just stood there a turn and then went back from where he came. That was... disappointing. Not sure if thats a bug so are there some limits on start game monster attacks?

Btw, that knight quite harmoniously combines with that soundtrack.

Dantganis is a randomly generated name. Just a random big bad from a lair result, not a hero, and will never be in the pedia. Extremely unlikely to ever see the exact same combination of name/unit again, even. ;)

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 01:55 AM

"In proper dangerous magical environment 'death from an old age' is listed amongst statistics only because of the existence of wither curse"

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 01:57 AM

Dantganis is a randomly generated name. Just a random big bad from a lair result, not a hero, and will never be in the pedia. Extremely unlikely to ever see the exact same combination of name/unit again, even. ;)

Yes, but another question was, why he had not razed my defenceless capital?

Edit: Ah , not to worry. After some turns he had returned and razed it. Still strange why not to do it first time...

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 04:20 AM

As player is a godlike eternal emperor of his nation then civic changes are but a simple decrees of his unopposable will. So why the whole empire stops to work, eat and pray after each ruling policy change and it is called "anarchy" - while God Player Emperor retains his total control over imperial affairs? Only answer that comes to me is an "yet another Sid's absurdity". It would be logical to replace that empire-wide mini-stasis spell with a simple few turns delay before civic change occurs to represent the time it takes to made a necessary bureaucratic changes and propagation of His Will. For spiritual leaders this delay is unnecessary as the God Player Emperor communes directly with the minds of his subjects, granting them an instant revelation of His new order.

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 04:25 AM

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 04:31 AM

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 04:40 AM

Because there needs to be a valid gameplay cost to switching civics?
Then explain to me also why it needs to be if you please? I am not so experienced in multiplayer as to understand it.

A simple delay in effect does absolutely nothing. You just keep your current civic a little longer. No cost whatsoever. Anarchy, on the other hand, has a distinct cost.
It, if set, say, two-three times an "anarchy" length, shall prevent civic juggling and also add a need for planning ahead - say, if suddenly invaded, you shall not be able to immediately switch to unit spamming civics but also be spared the inevitability to completely paralyse your unit production for these few critical first war-time turns.

Addendum: it may also add some unhappiness during switching time.
And, as that "anarchy" effect had been ascribed by Kael's supreme authority as "stasis spell" then "anarchy" IS mini-stasis, which auto-cast on civic change is illogical and counter-lorewise.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 04:57 AM

Turn delay AFTER civic change as it is now is also completely non-realistic, as historical example of February Revolution in Russia almost immediately followed by October one shows - delay between November and March of the same year is certainly less than one Civ turn, while preparation for both of those revolutions took quite a few scores of years in advance.

isthmus

May 11, 2010, 05:04 AM

Ultimately we're arguing a realism vs gameplay arguement. There are plenty of inconsistancies in civ4 that don't match up in real life. You're against stuff which is actually present in the core game, and is part of how the civ4 game runs. It's important to have strategic consequences that accompany choices within a game. Getting uphappiness for a couple of turns isn't a loss because you'll get that back afterwards, but a lost turn is gone forever and it's never good to lose a turn in any stage of the game. Personally I think that the anarchy turns are a functional way preventing "civic juggling" as they are, as well as having a little (but enough) realism.

I'm not doubting that there wasn't "a turn of anarchy" for every change of institution throughtout history, but c'mon. It's a game, and should play as one.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 05:06 AM

I suggest to reduce Warrior cost from 50 to 40 on Marathon as it is already a two occasions when i had lacked but a single warrior in my starting capital to withstand first beast onslaught.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 05:14 AM

but c'mon. It's a game, and should play as one.
Alas, i rather view the Civ as a potential geopolitical/dominion simulator akin to Alpha and MoM which by insane ruleset had been purposefully duped into what it is - a "game". Meanwhile, "toss a jew into gas chamber" could also be viewed as a fun game which should be played as such, without questioning the rules (hope they shall not ban me for this one:()

A general rule about realism in games is that realism should be limited only by game's engine capabilities - in 3d actions there are no such thing as leaving "pass thru wall" glitches and ugly spikey polygons as an intended part of gameplay.

Addendum: Ah, yes. That "but c'mon. Its just a..." had reminded me where else this form is being used. "But c'mon. It's just one sniff. You won't get addicted from but a single dose."

isthmus

May 11, 2010, 05:37 AM

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 05:47 AM

Also i wonder whether an idea to merge BUG into RifE was considered? And advise to loot peer modders pedias for entries absent in RifE :)

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 06:14 AM

"can found a castle, creating a Fort Commander with extended influence in it", ant THAT is for a 120 hammers, less than worker???:eek:
If something to be called an IMBA then this is it.

Possible reasonable solution: "can add a Fort Commander into an existing fort/castle/citadel", with (optionally) cost raised ~+50% and renamed into "border garrison" or such and given to almost all other civs AND normal settler for those remained megacities retained.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 06:33 AM

Possibly repeating myself, i shall notice that if sea improvements have become Alpha-like available to build everywhere (much more imo elegant solution was found in Wildmana, with their fisherman's hut (+1 food/sea square) replacing vanilla lighthouse for that function) which is, yes, realistic - a workboat built for every "fishing boat" but also unnecessary detailed and imbalanced - as the boat build costs were not accordingly adjusted and multiple build as i assume not present in RifE, then transition must be finished - to the "kelp farm" built by non-consumable workboat for EVERY civ and/or "fishing boat" working as supply crawler.

"Flying" for presently UU Wyrmfisher boat presumes that something as advanced as enchantment or gas baloon are propelling it, which must place it much further on tech tree.

As these shore squares had become so much more yielding, then "able to work sea squares" should be granted by some "utility harbor" available at 'fishing', separated from later and more costly "trade harbour". Also 'fishing', as it does mean much more than catching a fish from brook with bare hands, may be renamed in smth like "aquaculture"

As i can see after redling "1.23 trade patch" (had it changed after last i dled it?) much of it had been addressed, BUT:
Now Kuriotates cannot work sea squares until Knowledge of the Ether as ordinary workboat is not available to them!!

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 06:49 AM

I suggest to loot Wildmana for that, as there Walls when added to the Palisade form a nice-looking combined model of wall with crenellations.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 06:54 AM

Have you considered starting to accept donations? With 6k downloads it may be quite a sum.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 09:59 AM

Stop me if I'm wrong here, but I think the success of the civilization franchise has been due to the fact that It's been a compelling strategy game with the backdrop of development of world history being a good theme. I don't think it's been "dumbed down" or downgraded from being a simulation, it's been designed with being a good game as the primary goal and therefore although they try and bring it close to being realistic, gameplay comes first a lot of the time in order to make it a viable game that appeals to a larger audience.
A lot of people won't be critizing the mechanics for being unrepresentative of how it happened in real life if it improves their enjoyment of the game, something that's shown here on the forums with a minority of discussions being about changing unrealistic, yet effective mechanics.

At any rate I feel like I'm trying to get blood out of a stone here, since you arn't about to change your mind on this. I'm honestly not prepared to argue over the meaning and reasoning behind the development of civ much further since this isn't the place to do so.

If that thread is designated for discussion of RifE ruleset changes then i believe the reasons and underlying philosophies for such a changes are not offtopish - unless some of RifE creators decree it otherwise as unnecessary for them.

As for the pcgames purposes then yes, children who not yet achieved a full human sentience play games because it "feels fun" without understanding why it is so. And yes, some games are designed with a sole purpose of being fancy mesmerizing distraction while player is drained of his power, riddled with various curses and robbed of a lump sum of his 'money' = his servitude in addition to direct power drain.
But some games are designed for teaching thru simulation and RP - as are Assassins Creed, Jade Empire, Alpha and MoM or can be used as a sanctuaries - as FfH or Age of Wonders. And so i see RifE as most detailed instrument available for my learning purposes which yet contains too much of foolishness and errors (particularly inherited from Sid Meyer's Civ as rules are of more substance than texts) to be fully usable - each inconsistency or inability to do what i will done distracts me and some are so blatant that i cannot ignore them, so i offer these suggestions in expectation that someday RifE becomes a fully optimised tool.
Also it is quite common among the multiplayers to call "gg" the party where they win with some effort - not the game that actually teaches them something substantial and new.

Shinzen

May 11, 2010, 10:14 AM

Huh. That was a lot of text.

I like a lot of those suggestions Rainbow, but maybe try to use multiquotes. It's considered a mite rude to constantly repost over and over again. If you quote a person and reply to that idea under the quote, you could fit all of that into one big post, which would be a bit easier to read. It's hard having to reference back through 80+ pages without quote links.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 10:46 AM

It seems to me that he who brought Wyrmfisher into FfH was stricken by the "strange mood" (see Dwarf Fortress Wiki) but was unable to fully comprehend, or too lazy to fully implement, or i assume too much, or... no matter.

The very name "Wyrmfisher" means, literally, "he who catches water-dwelling wyrms" where "wyrm" is, generally, a dragon-like creature - if that was "wyrm who catches fish" then the word for it would have been "fisherwyrm" if my knowledge of English syntaxis does not fails me.

So it is obvious why that boat was made flying - as sea monsters cannot jump too high out of water, and swimming/flying creatures (like Warcraft "couatl") do not reach truly dangerous monstrosizes, and from the high elevation it is possible to see deep into the water.

The reason for such a seamonsterhunt is also clear - as megatraders, golden dragon worshippers and lovers of luxury Kuriotates need these "wyrms", adversaries of Eurabatres and threat to sea routes only as rare ingredients - thus dead.

And to complete Wyrmfisher it must be given stats comparable to common sea monsters, ability to see/attack them and a huge bounty for each monster slain. Ability to build improvements may be removed. In order to prevent it from exploring it should be made an ordinary air unit - rebase, recon mission, some bonus vs sea monsters or huge penalty against all lesser than a dragon and all ranged - i do imagine that it is armed with some sort of harpoon-thrower which can be used against any creature large/slow enough, but fliers can attack and seriously damage it while non-fliers have a chance only when Wyrmfisher closes for a shot.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 11:17 AM

As these round yellow shinies which you can split into the reserve/science/culture/intel are essentially taxes then it is obvious that whole tax adjustment feature had been exempted from the Civ4 - and it is quite large amount of unchecked wealth flowing under those shinies. Although i wonder what are those "gameplay reasons" for sake of which "add + 1 commerce/pip and +1:mad:/town" separate for each city along with script "raise taxes until theres no extra :D, lower one turn before growth by 1" had not been added, there is a great opportunity for events that add some gold from that untaxed wealth (proportional to the total pop and maybe GDP - i do not know how much that value decorative) that is unused; considering my early position towards those wonder huts containing dragon hoards of gold along with Age of Magic holocrons, their removal (which i do always check in options) can be balanced with these events to help in early stockpiling. Also "emergency war tax" decree can be enabled which brings about 3-6 times of total 'commerce' income in gold and huge unhappiness "oppression" along with some revolts.

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 12:20 PM

As i recall, bard's historical function was to collect, perform and sometimes compose an exaggerated inspirational ballads about most notorious local deeds. Which raised an overall morale level but did not added any new practical knowledge. So replacement of bard's 1 beaker with 1 smile should complete the transition to the Alpha's specialist system, started with healer. The whole "we cannot extend our settlement into the empty wilderness because it is too crowded" is yet another Sid's... ahem... better refrain from that crude word.

That would be horribly unbalanced. With the unlimited Bard civic (can't remember the name) you'd end up with unlimited city sizes.

Then explain to me also why it needs to be if you please? I am not so experienced in multiplayer as to understand it.

It, if set, say, two-three times an "anarchy" length, shall prevent civic juggling and also add a need for planning ahead - say, if suddenly invaded, you shall not be able to immediately switch to unit spamming civics but also be spared the inevitability to completely paralyse your unit production for these few critical first war-time turns.

Addendum: it may also add some unhappiness during switching time.
And, as that "anarchy" effect had been ascribed by Kael's supreme authority as "stasis spell" then "anarchy" IS mini-stasis, which auto-cast on civic change is illogical and counter-lorewise.

As has been stated, this is NOT a sim. It is a game. The hierarchy of development is as follows:

Gameplay > AI > Lore > Realism

Gameplay always comes first. Anarchy is simple to understand, easy to plan for, and gives a valid cost to switching civics, which is important from a gameplay point of view.

It is also completely nonsensical to rewrite large portions of the code, completely changing a working mechanic, for no other reason than realism.

Not going to bother responding to the rest of the posts on the subject, as my opinion should be clear.

Alas, i rather view the Civ as a potential geopolitical/dominion simulator akin to Alpha and MoM which by insane ruleset had been purposefully duped into what it is - a "game". Meanwhile, "toss a jew into gas chamber" could also be viewed as a fun game which should be played as such, without questioning the rules (hope they shall not ban me for this one:()

Never make a comment like that in the RifE forum again. Seriously. ;)

I'm aware it was not intended as offensively as it sounds, and honestly it does not bother me. Jewish friends and a German family (as in, my grandparents on my Mother's side were in the Nazi Youth; Keep in mind that was forced for all children at the time) sort of force you to deal with it.

However, I just don't want it in this forum. I want absolutely nothing to do with that kind of flame war. Keep it clean.

I suggest to reduce Warrior cost from 50 to 40 on Marathon as it is already a two occasions when i had lacked but a single warrior in my starting capital to withstand first beast onslaught.

Not possible to do without reducing cost for the Warrior on all speeds.

As I've said, however, there will be a new barbarian system in place in 1.3. It's partially implemented in the team version already.

Also i wonder whether an idea to merge BUG into RifE was considered? And advise to loot peer modders pedias for entries absent in RifE :)

Some portions of it already are, but the majority of it will not be. I'm used to not having it, and don't particularly desire the features (aside from the detailed trade breakdown in the city screen, which I'd like to merge), so it's not likely to happen.

Nothing stopping a modmod from being developed along those lines.

As for pedia entries, I've already done quite a bit of that for the next version. And KillerClowns has written some beautiful entries as well... Remember, we DO have a writer on the team. ;)

"can found a castle, creating a Fort Commander with extended influence in it", ant THAT is for a 120 hammers, less than worker???:eek:
If something to be called an IMBA then this is it.

Possible reasonable solution: "can add a Fort Commander into an existing fort/castle/citadel", with (optionally) cost raised ~+50% and renamed into "border garrison" or such and given to almost all other civs AND normal settler for those remained megacities retained.

No, it is not imba. The Kurios are limited in number of cities. Settlements suck. Forts allow them to take territory cheaply, though not as solidly. There is a mechanic planned which will change it slightly, but the Pioneer will remain.

Adding a Fort Commander is a simple spell, no reason for a new unit for it (unless you mean allowing more than one? THAT would be imba).

And allowing it to other civs will never happen. It is unique to the Kurios, was planned that way, and will remain that way. ;)

Possibly repeating myself, i shall notice that if sea improvements have become Alpha-like available to build everywhere (much more imo elegant solution was found in Wildmana, with their fisherman's hut (+1 food/sea square) replacing vanilla lighthouse for that function) which is, yes, realistic - a workboat built for every "fishing boat" but also unnecessary detailed and imbalanced - as the boat build costs were not accordingly adjusted and multiple build as i assume not present in RifE, then transition must be finished - to the "kelp farm" built by non-consumable workboat for EVERY civ and/or "fishing boat" working as supply crawler.

Improvements will be massively changed. However, we've decided to go with enhanced buildings for coastal cities. Adding just one improvement does not remove the monotonous look of the coastal tiles, and we have no desire to add enough variety (as yet; Bezeri and Isenj will need some) to support a varied look.

No civ other than the Lanun, Kurios, and Jotnar will get non-consumable workboats. Lanun get their Fleets, Kurios get a single Wyrmfisher, and Jotnar get Tritons.

Also: The improvement you mention in Wild Mana was looted from Orbis. Original credit should go there. ;)

"Flying" for presently UU Wyrmfisher boat presumes that something as advanced as enchantment or gas baloon are propelling it, which must place it much further on tech tree.

It comes in at KotE. I'm perfectly willing to believe in primitive gas balloons, particularly from a civ led by Eurabatres.

As these shore squares had become so much more yielding, then "able to work sea squares" should be granted by some "utility harbor" available at 'fishing', separated from later and more costly "trade harbour". Also 'fishing', as it does mean much more than catching a fish from brook with bare hands, may be renamed in smth like "aquaculture"

Not necessary once we add the new coastal buildings.

As i can see after redling "1.23 trade patch" (had it changed after last i dled it?) much of it had been addressed, BUT:
Now Kuriotates cannot work sea squares until Knowledge of the Ether as ordinary workboat is not available to them!!

Not sure where you're getting this info..... It sure as hell is. If they sacrifice one of their limited cities to gain a coastal city.

Wyrmfisher's are a unique unitclass, they do not replace workboats.

I suggest to loot Wildmana for that, as there Walls when added to the Palisade form a nice-looking combined model of wall with crenellations.

This was also from Orbis, unless Sephi duplicated it.

Have you considered starting to accept donations? With 6k downloads it may be quite a sum.

No. Donate to Unicef if you'd like to donate.

Also, it's over 10k, we have mirrors. ;)

If that thread is designated for discussion of RifE ruleset changes then i believe the reasons and underlying philosophies for such a changes are not offtopish - unless some of RifE creators decree it otherwise as unnecessary for them.

As for the pcgames purposes then yes, children who not yet achieved a full human sentience play games because it "feels fun" without understanding why it is so. And yes, some games are designed with a sole purpose of being fancy mesmerizing distraction while player is drained of his power, riddled with various curses and robbed of a lump sum of his 'money' = his servitude in addition to direct power drain.
But some games are designed for teaching thru simulation and RP - as are Assassins Creed, Jade Empire, Alpha and MoM or can be used as a sanctuaries - as FfH or Age of Wonders. And so i see RifE as most detailed instrument available for my learning purposes which yet contains too much of foolishness and errors (particularly inherited from Sid Meyer's Civ as rules are of more substance than texts) to be fully usable - each inconsistency or inability to do what i will done distracts me and some are so blatant that i cannot ignore them, so i offer these suggestions in expectation that someday RifE becomes a fully optimised tool.
Also it is quite common among the multiplayers to call "gg" the party where they win with some effort - not the game that actually teaches them something substantial and new.

Going to reply to this one anyway....

Basically, you dislike what you dislike, and nothing will change that. However, I dislike what I dislike, and the mod reflects my own feelings.

I will NEVER attempt to turn RifE into a simulation. It is a game. and will remain that way. As such, there will always be limitations to what you can and cannot do.

It seems to me that he who brought Wyrmfisher into FfH was stricken by the "strange mood" (see Dwarf Fortress Wiki) but was unable to fully comprehend, or too lazy to fully implement, or i assume too much, or... no matter.

The very name "Wyrmfisher" means, literally, "he who catches water-dwelling wyrms" where "wyrm" is, generally, a dragon-like creature - if that was "wyrm who catches fish" then the word for it would have been "fisherwyrm" if my knowledge of English syntaxis does not fails me.

So it is obvious why that boat was made flying - as sea monsters cannot jump too high out of water, and swimming/flying creatures (like Warcraft "couatl") do not reach truly dangerous monstrosizes, and from the high elevation it is possible to see deep into the water.

The reason for such a seamonsterhunt is also clear - as megatraders, golden dragon worshippers and lovers of luxury Kuriotates need these "wyrms", adversaries of Eurabatres and threat to sea routes only as rare ingredients - thus dead.

And to complete Wyrmfisher it must be given stats comparable to common sea monsters, ability to see/attack them and a huge bounty for each monster slain. Ability to build improvements may be removed. In order to prevent it from exploring it should be made an ordinary air unit - rebase, recon mission, some bonus vs sea monsters or huge penalty against all lesser than a dragon and all ranged - i do imagine that it is armed with some sort of harpoon-thrower which can be used against any creature large/slow enough, but fliers can attack and seriously damage it while non-fliers have a chance only when Wyrmfisher closes for a shot.

I'm aware of what a Strange Mood is, thank you. ;)

The Wyrmfisher was added by myself, over a year ago. When the mod was called Malakim+, and was far smaller. It also does EXACTLY what I intended it to do, and what you read into the name is completely, and totally, wrong. :goodjob:

It is "he who fishes as a Wyrm". Fisherwyrm sounds like crap, so I went with the far better Wyrmfisher.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fishing sea monsters. It has everything to do with flying as the Wyrms do... Remember, Kurios are one of the three civs who would support the Cult of the Dragon.

Your suggested change for it completely and totally destroys the intended function of the unit. It was designed to allow the Kurios (with land based cities, if you want the most potential yield out of your cities) to harvest sea resources. That is all.

As these round yellow shinies which you can split into the reserve/science/culture/intel are essentially taxes then it is obvious that whole tax adjustment feature had been exempted from the Civ4 - and it is quite large amount of unchecked wealth flowing under those shinies. Although i wonder what are those "gameplay reasons" for sake of which "add + 1 commerce/pip and +1:mad:/town" separate for each city along with script "raise taxes until theres no extra :D, lower one turn before growth by 1" had not been added, there is a great opportunity for events that add some gold from that untaxed wealth (proportional to the total pop and maybe GDP - i do not know how much that value decorative) that is unused; considering my early position towards those wonder huts containing dragon hoards of gold along with Age of Magic holocrons, their removal (which i do always check in options) can be balanced with these events to help in early stockpiling. Also "emergency war tax" decree can be enabled which brings about 3-6 times of total 'commerce' income in gold and huge unhappiness "oppression" along with some revolts.

Events for that would be a very clunky way to implement it. Would be far more likely to add a method to raise taxes.

But honestly, I have no real interest in adding that much micro and depth to the mechanic. What we have now works, and I'm happy with it.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 01:01 PM

There is something that must be done with yet another mindless derelict of Civ.
Returning to the Alpha where currency = energy, quite existant stuff stored in high tech capacitors, quite convertable into matter with some sci-fi stuff by e==sqr(m*c) and quite transferable with Tesla megatowers or whatever, its use (albeit with a progressive cost and scent of cheesyness) for 'hurrying production' was quite explanable.

Within RifE we see: the sacrifice of slaves for large amount of 'hammers'; "official" explanation is that they die from overworking but we all know that "sacrifice" is due to the demon lords who send a horde of imps to build a fortress in a single night, example records can be found. I think that certain Armageddon counter level prereq along with large penalties to the alignment - and maybe faction prereqs, restriction for only those evil/powerful enough to deal with those demons are in order.

Any unit training shall be exempt for any hurrying and thoughtfully replaced with the draft because it is, well, training, acceleration of which results in worse troopers. Although mind magic possibly of help - to load uber-soldier imprints into commoners and then receive something resembling normal grunt - with quirks. And as equipment have had been already brought in game, then separate purchase/manufacture of arms - with an enticing thoughts of customising every unit and obvious exception for warriors and scouts who pick their weapons in the forest, draft of recruits from population - yes, yes, with it reducing - that would be end for Stacks of Doom and unit wasting, with racial prereq for every unit - with their oncoming customized training - i've started salivating uncontrollably imagining all that. And those units that do not look like ordinary (transformed) citizen should be drafted from their lairs - as buildings or improvements.

On population growth: why not return to good old MoM system with food being a modifier for growth along with racial ones instead of a direct infusor - stuff some few tons of snacks into females and they immediately give birth - hmm... description accurate for some Klackons, not for humans. In Civ3 there was more sane system of drafting pop per settler/worker, and i'm in dark of why it have then been replaced with that in Civ4. Imo the best imaginable settler/worker spawning way should be to craft some crude->basic->golden->magic tools (with crafting->bronze->iron working->enchanting as prereq) which then affect workrate/starting hammer bonus in new city (per-turn one NOT free hammers) then draft 1 / 2-3 respectively from pop then (optionally) train them.

And then we have hurrying with gold. I'll strain my brain to think how it is done. Well, if the hurried object is a wonder made entirely from gold then it is simple: to melt few scores dragonhoards of coins instead of mining new accelerates the process - so it can possibly be fit in single turn, coin transportation times excluded for being built in capital where chancellery stands. Same goes for golden golems.
Less obvious way to use those tons of gold (i'll skip the question where ragged survivors find those coins before learning smelting - perhaps in ancient ruins under city or wonder huts with quantum storage vaults - for now) is an enormous BRIBE. To whom? The answer is quite clear: not to the citizens, of course, as they are in general (except for, maybe, giants, or Amurites - where every child can levitate objects) incapable of building huge fortress in a single night; if even they're are, ensuing chaos after such a distribution shall render any works impossible; for order/goodly races, they shall work their best constantly and without megabribes. Of course, BRIBE goes to demons! See sacrifice of slaves in former entry.
Then, perhaps, this gold is being used as a source of magic energies exuded by that metal to levitate stones and port in extraplanar buildings? Imo an output of single dragonhoard shall not exceed that of a node by lot, but i'm no expert into these matters. So anyway, advanced metamagic knowledge and number of archmages with large supporting retinue - or possibly a single god - may be required for such an actions to succeed.

Whew, me got entangled in me own wordweave.

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 01:11 PM

Within RifE we see: the sacrifice of slaves for large amount of 'hammers'; "official" explanation is that they die from overworking but we all know that "sacrifice" is due to the demon lords who send a horde of imps to build a fortress in a single night, example records can be found. I think that certain Armageddon counter level prereq along with large penalties to the alignment - and maybe faction prereqs, restriction for only those evil/powerful enough to deal with those demons are in order.

Tell me, why is it impossible to have both explanations? Or numerous others? It's a game mechanic. Leave it at that.

It is a mechanic which works, is useful, and is fun. There is absolutely no reason to spend the amount of time required rewriting those mechanics, as they are not broken.

Honestly, your best bet is to learn how to program and do it yourself. Very few of your suggestions are worth the effort involved to realize them, as all they will do is destroy RifE as a game, and leave it as a sandbox where anything goes. Fun for about 30 minutes, then extremely boring.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 02:01 PM

That would be horribly unbalanced. With the unlimited Bard civic (can't remember the name) you'd end up with unlimited city sizes.

Food and growth speed? And these bards shall be locked into supporting themselves so that city shall produce almost nothing exc culture and great bards, useful niche role?
As has been stated, this is NOT a sim. It is a game. The hierarchy of development is as follows:

Gameplay > AI > Lore > Realism
Noted. Civ core rules are not to be changed except that by your will. From now on i shall focus on bugs and minor stat changes.

Never make a comment like that in the RifE forum again. Seriously. ;) Noted. Some themes are taboo and offtop.

No, it is not imba. The Kurios are limited in number of cities. Settlements suck. Forts allow them to take territory cheaply, though not as solidly. There is a mechanic planned which will change it slightly, but the Pioneer will remain.

Adding a Fort Commander is a simple spell, no reason for a new unit for it (unless you mean allowing more than one? THAT would be imba).

And allowing it to other civs will never happen. It is unique to the Kurios, was planned that way, and will remain that way. ;)
I had argued mainly against insta-cranking castle, not even a fort, and fort ccommander, being akin to great commander who is much harder to obtain.

No civ other than the Lanun, Kurios, and Jotnar will get non-consumable workboats. Lanun get their Fleets, Kurios get a single Wyrmfisher, and Jotnar get Tritons.
Repeating my arguments again: insta-crank, overloading of coast city queyes with about ten workboats for each.

Not sure where you're getting this info..... It sure as hell is. If they sacrifice one of their limited cities to gain a coastal city. Wyrmfisher's are a unique unitclass, they do not replace workboats.
My mistake. What i thought to be a sea turned out to be a large freshwater lake. Now i cannot improve these 7 tiles because workboats cannot be built in lakecoast cities, not because Kurios lack workboats.

The Wyrmfisher was added by myself, over a year ago. When the mod was called Malakim+, and was far smaller. It also does EXACTLY what I intended it to do, and what you read into the name is completely, and totally, wrong. :goodjob: It is "he who fishes as a Wyrm". Fisherwyrm sounds like crap, so I went with the far better Wyrmfisher.
It has absolutely nothing to do with fishing sea monsters. It has everything to do with flying as the Wyrms do... Remember, Kurios are one of the three civs who would support the Cult of the Dragon.
Your suggested change for it completely and totally destroys the intended function of the unit. It was designed to allow the Kurios (with land based cities, if you want the most potential yield out of your cities) to harvest sea resources. That is all.
So you have purposefully inverted meaning of a word to make it better looking. Got it.
Not much worse than those anagrams/distortions of "fantasy" names made from original mythological. Although... A Fishing Dragon... Like great seagull, with sharp whistle of a wind in his wings that blot out the sun, he descends into the emerald waters, and great gusts of steam billow out as he drowns in painful agony, his fiery spirit extinguished... sorry, a third insult for today. And as it is of course entirely up to you, why magnificent Wyrmfisher cannot hunt the seamonsters after it builds those about 7 improvements instead doing nothing most of the game?

But honestly, I have no real interest in adding that much micro and depth to the mechanic. What we have now works, and I'm happy with it. I take it as you generally disinterested in modifying ANY of the basic systems, not only core ruleset? Ok, focus on bugs and... why am i still here? Hmm... Amusement on imagination of things that no one shall do for me? Yes, got it too. Want something done, do it yourself.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 02:16 PM

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 02:23 PM

Food and growth speed? And these bards shall be locked into supporting themselves so that city shall produce almost nothing exc culture and great bards, useful niche role?

It's just not something I'm in favor of. With a Great Bard, maybe. But not the standard bard specialist.

Believe Opera is working on something along those lines as it is.

Noted. Civ core rules are not to be changed except that by your will. From now on i shall focus on bugs and minor stat changes.

Correction: Core rule changes/additions are made by the RifE team as a whole, not just myself. ;)

I had argued mainly against insta-cranking castle, not even a fort, and fort ccommander, being akin to great commander who is much harder to obtain.

Originally, culture was provided by the Fort Commander. As a result the Pioneer was just a standard Fort Commander that put out more culture, and the spell built a fort.

Now it's done by improvement, so it had to be a castle in order to maintain the same amount of territory.

Really though, it's not something I'm concerned about. Other civs will be able to get the Fortification Specialist improvement for their workers, letting them construct a second level fort.

Repeating my arguments again: insta-crank, overloading of coast city queyes with about ten workboats for each.

And like I said, the ability to spam coastal improvements will be removed. No need to load up queues so much.

My mistake. What i thought to be a sea turned out to be a large freshwater lake. Now i cannot improve these 7 tiles because workboats cannot be built in lakecoast cities, not because Kurios lack workboats.

Ah. That's just because the lake is a bit small. It's based on number of watertiles, not whether it's freshwater or not.

So you have purposefully inverted meaning of a word to make it better looking. Got it.
Not much worse than those anagrams/distortions of "fantasy" names made from original mythological. Although... A Fishing Dragon... Like great seagull, with sharp whistle of a wind in his wings that blot out the sun, he descends into the emerald waters, and great gusts of steam billow out as he drowns in painful agony, his fiery spirit extinguished... sorry, a third insult for today. And as it is of course entirely up to you, why magnificent Wyrmfisher cannot hunt the seamonsters after it builds those about 7 improvements instead doing nothing most of the game?

Yes, just wanted a good name for it. ;)

The Wyrmfisher cannot attack anything because it is too early in the tech tree for that.

I take it as you generally disinterested in modifying ANY of the basic systems, not only core ruleset? Ok, focus on bugs and... why am i still here? Hmm... Amusement on imagination of things that no one shall do for me? Yes, got it too. Want something done, do it yourself.

It's not that I'm not willing to change base rules. It's that I'm only willing to go through that amount of work if it's necessary. Completely changing working mechanics just to enhance a small amount of realism is not necessary.

Basically, the limited time I have is better spent on other things. :goodjob:

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 02:37 PM

I have found i miss the key element for comprehending which sorts of gameplay suggestions are likely to be acceptable for Valkrionn the Hamster King:
Why have you started to mod FF051 and continue to do so?

This is actually a good question... :p

First off, wasn't FF051 that I started with. I honestly cannot remember what version it was... Think it was in the 30's or 40's, but Malakim+ was started over a year ago now.

Basically, I mod because I enjoy it, and it is good practice. I'm going to school for a Comp Sci degree, and will hopefully end up making games for a living.

RifE is basically just the way I'd like FfH to be. Now that there is a larger team involved, we've narrowed down the scope of the future changes a bit, and settled on a firm development cycle.

At root, we have the following goals:

Better gameplay.

This is the most important one. Any new mechanic (new barb system, for example) must improve gameplay.

More flavorful civs

This is secondary, but still important. If we can improve a civ, make it more lore-appropriate while maintaining or improving it's gameplay value, we'll do it.

Rainbow Sand

May 11, 2010, 02:51 PM

Thank you. Some things i thought were wrong in game were wrong in my mind instead, and my estimation of your personality was incorrect.

Opera

May 11, 2010, 02:52 PM

Ah, sounds okay :)

Mercutio46

May 11, 2010, 04:15 PM

Bloody Hell - today's posts have been a traumatic read! I think Valk has, possibly, the most patient personality I have ever come across . . .

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 04:28 PM

Hehe, thank you.

isthmus

May 11, 2010, 04:32 PM

Stay tuned for another action-packed special from the RifE ideas, requests and feedback thread!
Cya next week kids!

joemag

May 11, 2010, 09:56 PM

Haha Valk I also appreciate your patience since I seem to ask things that have already been covered.

Like this: Shouldn't Thanatos' movement type be flying?

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 10:04 PM

Haha Valk I also appreciate your patience since I seem to ask things that have already been covered.

Like this: Shouldn't Thanatos' movement type be flying?

Technically yes, but I just think he comes a bit early to be a flying unit.

He will have access to the promo next version, however; Forgot to allow Fallen Angels to take it, like Angels already can. That will affect primarily Thanatos and the Dullahan units, but the Mercurians gain it as well if they become evil.

Almagafor

May 11, 2010, 10:38 PM

Evil Mercurians, Broader Alignments or something awesome about that new religion we are not being told?

Valkrionn

May 11, 2010, 11:21 PM

Evil Mercurians, Broader Alignments or something awesome about that new religion we are not being told?

Broader Alignments.

The new religion will not function like the others... It does not affect your alignment. Rather, IT is affected BY your alignment. And that is all I am willing to say on the subject. :p

joemag

May 12, 2010, 12:31 AM

Since when could bears not cross desert? I can't get him to my capital :(

Rainbow Sand

May 12, 2010, 03:17 AM

Rainbow Sand

May 12, 2010, 03:33 AM

Bloody Hell - today's posts have been a traumatic read! I think Valk has, possibly, the most patient personality I have ever come across . . .
Thank you;) One of my posts was by combination of bold and normal strings made unable to read it normally and causing a slight dizziness but i decided it was too extreme and edited it:D

Rainbow Sand

May 12, 2010, 03:52 AM

2 food in exchange for a single hammer renders citizen, which primary function imo to help in early development and compensate for lack of hammers on city tiles, close to totally useless. Cases when it is being used - auto or manually - are extremely rare. So raising its yield to 2 hammers and engineer's to 3 for a proportion shall ease the citybuilding on flatlands.

Opera

May 12, 2010, 03:58 AM

Rainbow Sand

May 12, 2010, 04:23 AM

Edited XML file that causes Kuriotate Pioneer to crank out of nowhere merely a fort not a whole citadel. Should be placed into Rise from Erebus\Assets\XML\Units.

Rainbow Sand

May 12, 2010, 04:29 AM

Citizen specialists aren't supposed to be really useful. They're default specialists from when you can't use other specialists.
You mean citizen was created only to cover up the possible bug with population overflow??:eek: And that hammer was added to mask this, i see now... Then it is logical to replace that hammer with one gold, to represent us useless commoners who do nothing useful but self-sustaining while still pay taxes? And let those newly-placed cities develop at their civ-specific snail pace contradictory to history again where cities like Norilsk were built in frozen tundra within months?
To avoid inevitable "gameplay comes first", excuse as follows: i do not 'demand' but merely 'accent attention'. If my post style influences you so heavily as to force you to answer, put some points into ignoring skill.

/]rchon

May 12, 2010, 04:43 AM

Had some more ideas lately, with any RTS or civ building games Ive always loved using fortifications and such and I wanted to know something.

(1) Is it possible with this game to be able to have a worker construct linked defensive walls that you sorta have built like a road were the worker gets to an ordered point and is then given a spot to build to?

Id imagine a wall would work much like a mountain range in that only flying and certain other mountain climbing and crossing things could get over it.

Cause I think walls for one would be a great thing to have, I guess being a tile improvement, that you cant build anything over them or them over any other improvement without destroying the other which is fair cause its the same with forts.

(2) I was thinking about the idea of watch towers/defensive buildings. That would be like an improvement you can build, they have to be 3 spaces apart and can only be built within your territory, but I was thinking that unlike a fort/castle it doesn't give really any benefits to other units in its same tile or spread culture.

Instead its a defensive structure that would have a decent ranged attack rating and score. And each turn, if say theres a barbarian or enemy withing its range of fire it'll fire a ranged attack or 2 at them all without you ordering it, so a sorta automated structure that attacks things instinctively, maybe with some sentry bonuses and true sight.

Could even be a built stationary unit that doesn't actually move, if thats not possible for a improvement to do.

Found these files as sorta an idea of what I was thinking.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3300
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11094
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/ballista_hpS.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/coastalgun_dy6.jpg

The first tower in the links could be the default one for everyone.

The big gun emplacement could be an improved one the Mechanos get when they research Blasting Powder and the Ballista could be an improved one other races get when they research Marksman or Engineering.

(3) Next idea was from Mechanos stuff. I had the idea that at some point they unlock a new unit that can be built, its essentially their version of a Fireball/Cruise missile which would be a long ranged flying bomb.

The model would be easy for me to make essentially a flying bomb sphere with a propeller or two and a rudder.

(4) That as a naval unit that they may get a Jules Verne type Nautilus submarine/submersible thats both always invisible, can only attack sea units and has a minuscule carrying capacity of like 1, idea is it could be a way of disrupting shipping but also the main idea is that it would be capable of carrying a handful of the above mentioned flying bombs.

(5) I did find it odd that the few actual seagoing ships the Mechanos could build were all regular wood and sails types that every other primitive bunch uses.

For purely cosmetic purposes which this would be easy to pull off, could the Mechanos Frigate use the original Civ IV Ironclad model, since Ive seen it already been done with all sorts of other units like warriors, archers ect?

(6) I find that as a race that Abhors magic that the Mechanos are even able to build Druids, Arcane Barges and all sorts of wizard and magical buildings and Nexus's. will those be restricted from them in future?

(7) Finally seeing as how they use their railway system as a way of moving the Mobile Fortress around and that they utilize the Nexus which doesn't really coincide with their anti magic lore. I thought maybe its time to bring in another railroad only based unit that can serve as a replacement to the Nexus for them though it wouldn't be instantaneous travel anywhere to the world it could be equally good.

It'd either been a steam train if the model actually exists or could be this.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2879

Idea is that its got a low/decent attack but really isn't meant for combat its meant for using its large carrying capacity 6+ and its high movement rating 4+.

As a way of moving units around in an even faster manner then them trying to get to a destination themselves.

Thanks for making it past this wall of text.

Valkrionn

May 12, 2010, 08:24 AM

Since there are Archos who can spam spiders and any civ can capture wild ones, "spider swarm" is not so rare a strategy. Rush hunting and husbandry, get some spiders and go feed on goblins, workers, stray units, weak border garrisons, any garrisons, whole empires, giants and whatever gets into the steadily growing swarm. Generally CP cannot do anything against strong invisible unit lurking within his borders as most it does is to send few units to replace eaten garrisons. Some script to include 1-2 recon units in every garrison is necessary - CP is generally undervalues and misuses recon units as it is.

Invisible giant spiders... i know only about "invisible" (as they dwell in other dimension) up-to-palm sized spiders who are unable to visit prime material plane on their own accord. There are already mistforms and invisibility+breeding/growth+HN+Fear (!!) is OP.
Invisibility as not being characteristical for spiders should be removed.

And although i appreciate prank with dire hamster as much as i did appreciated pink unicorn, jokes are good only when limited in duration. Dire badger 2 str?

What exactly is CP? Computer Player? That would be AI. :p

All animals will be unable to be used directly for attack in the next version, unless you are Doviello or Archos. So don't worry about the spider swarm strategy.

Invisible spiders is fine. Assume they aren't really invisible, but hidden... Trap Door spiders, or spiders hidden in the tree canopy, whatever.

HN is being removed from non-Archos spiders.

Hamsters will remain, and likely become more common. Exactly how that will happen is something I won't discuss yet, though. ;)

2 food in exchange for a single hammer renders citizen, which primary function imo to help in early development and compensate for lack of hammers on city tiles, close to totally useless. Cases when it is being used - auto or manually - are extremely rare. So raising its yield to 2 hammers and engineer's to 3 for a proportion shall ease the citybuilding on flatlands.

Citizens are meant to be nearly useless. They are a last resort use of population.

Edited XML file that causes Kuriotate Pioneer to crank out of nowhere merely a fort not a whole citadel. Should be placed into Rise from Erebus\Assets\XML\Units.

Please start a new thread for your changes. Three reasons:

Don't want posts about them in a stickied thread; We cannot sticky threads ourselves, and have to request it from a moderator. The thread is cluttered enough, don't want to make it extremely so.
Don't want it looking like it's an 'official' change.
Gives you a place where you won't lose your attachments in page after page of comments.

rchon;9181703']Had some more ideas lately, with any RTS or civ building games Ive always loved using fortifications and such and I wanted to know something.

(1) Is it possible with this game to be able to have a worker construct linked defensive walls that you sorta have built like a road were the worker gets to an ordered point and is then given a spot to build to?

Id imagine a wall would work much like a mountain range in that only flying and certain other mountain climbing and crossing things could get over it.

Cause I think walls for one would be a great thing to have, I guess being a tile improvement, that you cant build anything over them or them over any other improvement without destroying the other which is fair cause its the same with forts.

Possible, but a lot of work. Would involve cloning all of the mountain code... If done, Walls would be a new tile height, rather than improvement, allowing for special improvements to be built on them (towers, crenelations, etc).

Will think about it.

rchon;9181703']
(2) I was thinking about the idea of watch towers/defensive buildings. That would be like an improvement you can build, they have to be 3 spaces apart and can only be built within your territory, but I was thinking that unlike a fort/castle it doesn't give really any benefits to other units in its same tile or spread culture.

Instead its a defensive structure that would have a decent ranged attack rating and score. And each turn, if say theres a barbarian or enemy withing its range of fire it'll fire a ranged attack or 2 at them all without you ordering it, so a sorta automated structure that attacks things instinctively, maybe with some sentry bonuses and true sight.

Could even be a built stationary unit that doesn't actually move, if thats not possible for a improvement to do.

Found these files as sorta an idea of what I was thinking.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3300
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11094
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/ballista_hpS.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/coastalgun_dy6.jpg

The first tower in the links could be the default one for everyone.

The big gun emplacement could be an improved one the Mechanos get when they research Blasting Powder and the Ballista could be an improved one other races get when they research Marksman or Engineering.

Interesting idea... Check the Citadel of Light, by cloning that code it should be possible for anyone to do this as a module. ;)

rchon;9181703']
(3) Next idea was from Mechanos stuff. I had the idea that at some point they unlock a new unit that can be built, its essentially their version of a Fireball/Cruise missile which would be a long ranged flying bomb.

The model would be easy for me to make essentially a flying bomb sphere with a propeller or two and a rudder.

That's a bit too advanced. Mechanos are Da'Vinci Steampunk, not 19th-20th century Steampunk.

rchon;9181703']
(4) That as a naval unit that they may get a Jules Verne type Nautilus submarine/submersible thats both always invisible, can only attack sea units and has a minuscule carrying capacity of like 1, idea is it could be a way of disrupting shipping but also the main idea is that it would be capable of carrying a handful of the above mentioned flying bombs.

I decided a while back that the Mechanos would have an Aerial navy, so no subs. :p

rchon;9181703']
(5) I did find it odd that the few actual seagoing ships the Mechanos could build were all regular wood and sails types that every other primitive bunch uses.

For purely cosmetic purposes which this would be easy to pull off, could the Mechanos Frigate use the original Civ IV Ironclad model, since Ive seen it already been done with all sorts of other units like warriors, archers ect?

Ironclad is already used. For the Khazad. :p

rchon;9181703']
(6) I find that as a race that Abhors magic that the Mechanos are even able to build Druids, Arcane Barges and all sorts of wizard and magical buildings and Nexus's. will those be restricted from them in future?

Arcane Barges and things like that, yes. Not sure on the Druid yet.

rchon;9181703']
(7) Finally seeing as how they use their railway system as a way of moving the Mobile Fortress around and that they utilize the Nexus which doesn't really coincide with their anti magic lore. I thought maybe its time to bring in another railroad only based unit that can serve as a replacement to the Nexus for them though it wouldn't be instantaneous travel anywhere to the world it could be equally good.

It'd either been a steam train if the model actually exists or could be this.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2879

Idea is that its got a low/decent attack but really isn't meant for combat its meant for using its large carrying capacity 6+ and its high movement rating 4+.

As a way of moving units around in an even faster manner then them trying to get to a destination themselves.

Thanks for making it past this wall of text.

I've actually been tempted to add something like this, may do it.

isthmus

May 12, 2010, 09:27 AM

Arcane Barges and things like that, yes. Not sure on the Druid yet.
Why not make a druid UU for the mechanos that upgrades from the techpriest?
Not sure if it suits a mechanical nation to have units that are all about nature, and the mechanos could do with a top tier divine-like unit. Could even have a leader that focuses on and provides benefits for the mechanos divine line.

Divvu

May 12, 2010, 10:35 AM

Mechanos are Da'Vinci Steampunk

Pleeeease, allow me some totally-unasked-for precision... :p

Its Da Vinci (without an accent...) if you refer to Leonardo da Vinci ("da" in Italian means "From" while "da' ", would be a contracted form (da + il), totally unapplicable to his name and "dà" is the 3rd sing. person of the verb "to give") the name means "Leonardo from Vinci", a little town/village near Florence (where I live :p).

If you refer to the civ. in Rise of Legend (I believe you are), IIRC those where just "Vinci", but I could be mistaken :D

Anyway, I would like to express you all my gratitude for your work, from what little tid-bit of Information I can find about the new patch(s) (Sir, you sure are evil about giving us some info :p) it looks like a lot of brainstorming went into the improvement of gameplay... I'm really excited, and I still have to find a single discussed change that I don't like!

Praise to you, and to the rest of Rife Team!

joemag

May 12, 2010, 10:43 AM

I noticed that Acheron got a huge boost, especially with the ability to move. I'm not quite sure I like that since I expected him to be held while his minions (sons of inferno) act as sorties against intruders. I understand that trespassing in his territory is supposed to be dangerous, but his new boost makes it nearly impossible, and I haven't been able to kill him yet. In fact, any stack that I was sending through his lands (he was at a choke point) was instantly obliterated.

Valkrionn

May 12, 2010, 11:06 AM

Why not make a druid UU for the mechanos that upgrades from the techpriest?
Not sure if it suits a mechanical nation to have units that are all about nature, and the mechanos could do with a top tier divine-like unit. Could even have a leader that focuses on and provides benefits for the mechanos divine line.

I may do just that... Or I may make the Techpriest itself the Druid UU, as the religion will be removed. Techpriests won't need a unitclass anymore.

Pleeeease, allow me some totally-unasked-for precision... :p

Its Da Vinci (without an accent...) if you refer to Leonardo da Vinci ("da" in Italian means "From" while "da' ", would be a contracted form (da + il), totally unapplicable to his name and "dà" is the 3rd sing. person of the verb "to give") the name means "Leonardo from Vinci", a little town/village near Florence (where I live :p).

If you refer to the civ. in Rise of Legend (I believe you are), IIRC those where just "Vinci", but I could be mistaken :D

Anyway, I would like to express you all my gratitude for your work, from what little tid-bit of Information I can find about the new patch(s) (Sir, you sure are evil about giving us some info :p) it looks like a lot of brainstorming went into the improvement of gameplay... I'm really excited, and I still have to find a single discussed change that I don't like!

Praise to you, and to the rest of Rife Team!

I refer to the Italian genius. ;)

That said, the Vinci in Rise of Legends are awesome as well... And thats where Lenora comes from.

So I suppose you could say it's a bit of a hybrid. Just think Renaissance-level tech, not Industrial Age. ;)

I noticed that Acheron got a huge boost, especially with the ability to move. I'm not quite sure I like that since I expected him to be held while his minions (sons of inferno) act as sorties against intruders. I understand that trespassing in his territory is supposed to be dangerous, but his new boost makes it nearly impossible, and I haven't been able to kill him yet. In fact, any stack that I was sending through his lands (he was at a choke point) was instantly obliterated.

RifE does not have Sons of Inferno, and won't be adding them. They were added for much the same reason we allowed Acheron to move... But we allowed that first. ;)

He is leashed to his city. I've done alot of work on leashes for the next version, allowing them to be added via promotion; We can even have a leash of variable range, which changes each turn. Or change leash length with a new promotion.

Mana Guardians will also be leashed next version, can move in the tiles immediately around their node, and can attack one past it (so can attack in a BFC range).

/]rchon

May 12, 2010, 12:14 PM

Ironclad is already used. For the Khazad. :p

Yes I'm well aware of that but that Ironclad they have is a honking huge dreadnought/battleship of a thing.

I was meaning for the Mechanos Frigate graphics replacement to be the small vanilla and original Civ IV ironclad model, that in size comparison is like a little gunboat as this image I cooked up shows.

http://a.imagehost.org/0004/ThisWasTheIdea_copy.jpg

It'd really just be adding more flavor and such but would be a nice touch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by /]rchon View Post
(7) Finally seeing as how they use their railway system as a way of moving the Mobile Fortress around and that they utilize the Nexus which doesn't really coincide with their anti magic lore. I thought maybe its time to bring in another railroad only based unit that can serve as a replacement to the Nexus for them though it wouldn't be instantaneous travel anywhere to the world it could be equally good.

It'd either been a steam train if the model actually exists or could be this.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...o=file&id=2879

Idea is that its got a low/decent attack but really isn't meant for combat its meant for using its large carrying capacity 6+ and its high movement rating 4+.

As a way of moving units around in an even faster manner then them trying to get to a destination themselves.

Thanks for making it past this wall of text.
I've actually been tempted to add something like this, may do it.

Oh awesome that would be great to see implemented.

And on the subject of how you said cloning the Citadel of Light's code that it could be made with a module. How does one go about even doing that? :0

Cyrusfan

May 12, 2010, 01:28 PM

What exactly is CP? Computer Player? That would be AI. :p
Hamsters will remain, and likely become more common. Exactly how that will happen is something I won't discuss yet, though. ;)

Go for the eyes, Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!

What, FoL could totally use another hero...

arcticnightwolf

May 12, 2010, 02:54 PM

Go for the eyes, Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!

What, FoL could totally use another hero...

Minsk may be quite nice hero :D

Divvu

May 12, 2010, 03:04 PM

Minsk may be quite nice hero :D

"We are all heroes!"

For as much as I love Baldur's Gate, that would be a bad choice Imho, first of all, Misnk is a "strange" ranger, too urban for my taste...

Also I prefer original characters over copy-paste, but I think that would be a decision that's better left to the Team, so just my 2 cents here!

Valkrionn

May 12, 2010, 05:09 PM

Oh, it won't be a hero. :mischief:

Valkrionn

May 12, 2010, 05:15 PM

rchon;9182892']Yes I'm well aware of that but that Ironclad they have is a honking huge dreadnought/battleship of a thing.

I was meaning for the Mechanos Frigate graphics replacement to be the small vanilla and original Civ IV ironclad model, that in size comparison is like a little gunboat as this image I cooked up shows.

http://a.imagehost.org/0004/ThisWasTheIdea_copy.jpg

It'd really just be adding more flavor and such but would be a nice touch.

Honestly, I'm keeping the Mechanos to an all aerial navy. Any remaining aquatic navy they have will be removed. ;)

rchon;9182892']
Oh awesome that would be great to see implemented.

And on the subject of how you said cloning the Citadel of Light's code that it could be made with a module. How does one go about even doing that? :0

Well, you'd be unable to change the python, so no different damage or effects... But if that's fine, all you'd need is a module which clones the Citadel of Light to a new improvement. Or at least has the same PythonAtRange call. Check the FF modmodder's thread for a good guide on how to make a module. ;)

Divvu

May 12, 2010, 08:42 PM

Oh, it won't be a hero. :mischief:

Maybe a Berserking Barbarian with a nasty two-hander and a miniaturized Giant Space Hamster as a familiar??!?

Because THAT would be awesome :D

Valkrionn

May 12, 2010, 08:44 PM

Maybe a Berserking Barbarian with a nasty two-hander and a miniaturized Giant Space Hamster as a familiar??!?

Because THAT would be awesome :D

Nope, nothing barbarian. And nothing with a berserk human. :p

stupidnewbie

May 12, 2010, 09:13 PM

Grey Fox

May 12, 2010, 09:14 PM

Speaking of two-handed weaponry, I wonder if I still got this unit laying around somewhere...

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8310/civrpgstartjf9.jpg

Valkrionn

May 12, 2010, 09:20 PM

Should the tower of mastery be given some stats or function and allowed to be built when the victory condition is disabled? The lunonater thing is pretty powerful at its final stage, making priests the most powerful specialists available. Maybe something similar-ish could be done with the tower of mastery and sage specialists?

Should add it, yes.

Speaking of two-handed weaponry, I wonder if I still got this unit laying around somewhere...

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8310/civrpgstartjf9.jpg

Interesting sword there.... :p

stupidnewbie

May 12, 2010, 09:51 PM

Should add it, yes.

Maybe have it teach visiting archmages the spells they'd get for free if they weren't built too early to get them? It'd help make omnipotence not as impossible for non-calabims. I've also found it weird how you're effectively punished for upgrading to archmages early in the game.

Valkrionn

May 12, 2010, 09:54 PM

Would be an interesting effect... Will consider it. ;)

Divvu

May 12, 2010, 10:15 PM

Maybe have it teach visiting archmages the spells they'd get for free if they weren't built too early to get them? It'd help make omnipotence not as impossible for non-calabims. I've also found it weird how you're effectively punished for upgrading to archmages early in the game.

Great Idea! Would be totally IMBA obtaining it in any other way, but as a substitute for a vicory condition? Hell Yeah!

Divvu

May 12, 2010, 10:20 PM

Nope, nothing barbarian. And nothing with a berserk human. :p

Mmmh, so you're ditching the limited capability of mere man to provide guidance, in order to harvest the pristine, unmatched, true power of the Hamster?

I'm in awe.

(:p)

stupidnewbie

May 12, 2010, 10:45 PM

Great Idea! Would be totally IMBA obtaining it in any other way, but as a substitute for a vicory condition? Hell Yeah!

I'm not sure it would be that IMBA, actually... if you wanted an archmage with the free spells, you could... delete and train another one.

Edit: actually, I suppose that as long as you have four mana nodes and a unit with dispel magic, you could get omnipotence and the tower of mastery over a long enough period of time. I'm not sure how you could handle that, unless you give the tower of mastery thing a buff applied to the archmages that takes away their spellcasting levels/masteries if you lose access to the proper mana types. Could that even be done?

Divvu

May 13, 2010, 12:56 AM

delete and train another one.

Yes, in about a gazzillion turns...

Also, add another square gazzillion if you also would like to level him up to have other promos like twincast, combat I-V, magic resistance and (Iirc) those master promo that are not automatically aquired when you level up the corrisponding spheres...

The ability to instant add all the multiple mana spheres you've got late in the game would be really powerful...
As it is now, arcane evolution is a choice between older, more experienced units and newer better prepared (potentially more powerful) units.
Believe me, I play a lot with mages, and usually tend to them up to higher levels... I actually managed to level up an Amurite Galean to omnipotence, without cheating (that took about 100-150 turns of heavy fighting, really heavy, and a costant abuse of Valor and the +1xp from combat that Master of Law & Sun gives you, orthus axe + move bonuses also helped)

Torugu

May 13, 2010, 10:43 AM

Leaving aside the discussion about trained mages vs newly build ones, I doubt that a building which gives you a (or possibly four) extremely powerful units could be much more powerful than a building which grants you instant victory, so I don't understand what all the balancing discussion is all about...

Cyrusfan

May 13, 2010, 12:04 PM

That's a nice effect. I think the Tower of Mastery should provide 1 mana of each type, but I'm thinking back to the discussion a while back of giving it an ability which explains why it's normally a victory condition.

Valkrionn

May 13, 2010, 12:07 PM

Yeah, balance doesn't really need to be considered on victory buildings.

Cyrusfan

May 13, 2010, 02:53 PM

Oh, well in that case, I'll ask for both effects. And it should make soft serve ice cream on demand.

25Hour

May 13, 2010, 10:40 PM

Yeah, balance doesn't really need to be considered on victory buildings.

In that case, how's about making the Tower of Mastery give you access to a magical Nuke-equivalent? I'm pretty sure there's a Python modcomp 'round these parts that lets you essentially turn it into a Planet-Buster, turning a 5x5 area around the blast radius into water tiles. HILARITY ENSUES!

I feel like if we're talking UNLIMITED POWAH (which the Tower of Mastery seems to imply), we may as well go whole hog. :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:

Divvu

May 14, 2010, 06:48 AM

In that case, how's about making the Tower of Mastery give you access to a magical Nuke-equivalent? I'm pretty sure there's a Python modcomp 'round these parts that lets you essentially turn it into a Planet-Buster, turning a 5x5 area around the blast radius into water tiles. HILARITY ENSUES!

I feel like if we're talking UNLIMITED POWAH (which the Tower of Mastery seems to imply), we may as well go whole hog. :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:

Mmmh, if we suggest a lot of cool effect and it becomes hard to choose, you could add multiple powers, then allow arcane units to cast one of say 5 "UNLIMITED POWAH", when in the City. Maybe add a delay between casting...

Don't know how much work would be needed to add that, so just a mere suggestion here. But the idea of Archmages casting world shaking spells from the top of the tower of mastery sure looks cool!

Evalis

May 14, 2010, 07:04 AM

How about we not give nuke powers to the tower of Mastery >.> I'd be fine with it allowing to train archmages in spell casting spheres for x number of turns. Anything that reduces micromanagement is good.. 5 turns for each new spell? That should make up for the lost time from leveling up a newly created mage.

Honestly I'm game for changing the way that spell casters learn spells to something more simplistic, like receiving x bonus promotions for the number of nodes you have, so you don't have to keep switching them around when upgrading. Heck even just changing it to a base 2 free promotions at mage level and another 3 at archmage would go a long way to prevent micromanagement hell =x

Divvu

May 14, 2010, 09:06 AM

5 turns for each new spell? That should make up for the lost time from leveling up a newly created mage.

Sorry but... All of your options sound like MORE micromanagement to me :p

Any of the proposed effect so far would be nice, but what I was intending with my earlyer post is, some kind of power, unlocked only when the unit is in the city.
Each 5 (arbitrary) turns, a number of shaded options appear in your unit menu and you can cast one spell. How is that a lot micromanagement?

No sarcasm intended, I'm not sure I understood your post myself :p

Edit: Oh, that said, I still prefer the "Upgrade mages with lost spheres idea", just, please, let's do this with all your mages in the city at once and with all the spheres, OverP maybe, but the Idea of sitting them all for x turns is simply a joke, at later turns...

isthmus

May 14, 2010, 10:02 AM

Why not give arcane units in the city an obscene XP growth rate that increases when coupled with the channelling promos. So archmages with channelling I, II and III will have a much faster XP growth than adepts, which helps them keep ahead of the new units, and mitigates the increased XP required for each level.
Basically a set of 3 promotions autoacquired if in the city with the ToM and each requires either channelling 1, 2 or 3 on top of that.
Oh, and a bunch of awesome spells would be very cool indeed. I honestly don't see the problem with having these spells, although maybe like nukes using too many will cause the world to crack or something, making everyone lose.

Valkrionn

May 14, 2010, 10:07 AM

Well, spells would be perfectly doable... But none of the ones that have been suggested. Lets just say... We have a new mechanic cooked up (thanks Grey Fox!) that would work perfectly here. ;)

Evalis

May 14, 2010, 10:34 AM

I was referring to the micromanagment inherant in creating powerful archmages by adjusting all your mana nodes to 2x for each adept, 3x for each mage, 4x for each archmage (and then likely again for lich). And um.. I was referring to the notion that building the tower of mastery should automatically equal game over as being bad. I did take it off of the list of winning strategies after all. All 4 archmages suddenly become omnipotents? No thanks. Firing nukes that obliterate your opponent? Again.. no thanks. I like the xp thing. Though it sounds like a new mechanic is already in the works. So fun times ^^

Valkrionn

May 14, 2010, 10:39 AM

Not already in the works, but already done. Just hadn't considered applying it in this direction. :p

Divvu

May 14, 2010, 11:37 AM

Not already in the works, but already done. Just hadn't considered applying it in this direction. :p

This is just another proof of how wicked Valkrionn is in truth! He's casting us bad mojos trough terrific gameplay, run for your life and your psiche people :crazyeye:!

edit: the kind of bad mojo an archmage-level caster could send from a ToM... Does Valk actually posses a real tower of mastery? The mistery deepens...

Valkrionn

May 14, 2010, 12:29 PM

This is just another proof of how wicked Valkrionn is in truth! He's casting us bad mojos trough terrific gameplay, run for your life and your psiche people :crazyeye:!

edit: the kind of bad mojo an archmage-level caster could send from a ToM... Does Valk actually posses a real tower of mastery? The mistery deepens...

Actually, I'm hard at work finishing up 1.3. I just don't want to release small incremental changes; It will be a rather large update.

Unfortunately, due to some other changes it will also be a FULL update, not a patch... But after this one, we should be good to go with just patches up till 2.0. ;)

Divvu

May 14, 2010, 12:45 PM

Actually, I'm hard at work finishing up 1.3. I just don't want to release small incremental changes; It will be a rather large update.

Unfortunately, due to some other changes it will also be a FULL update, not a patch... But after this one, we should be good to go with just patches up till 2.0. ;)

About mods in general, I have an ETA always established in my mind: "when it's ready :p"
I think no one but the peoples working in a project can establish the developement strategy and timing, so, if you feel this is the way to go in order to give us the fruit of your hard work, then you have my blessing and my thanks (as long as they are worth something to you... :p) !

sinner003

May 14, 2010, 01:57 PM

will there be more galley and trireme type ships, or maybe sprite changes for certain civs ships, using more galley and trireme sprites for ships like the frigate and such?
i think the kazad ironclad ship would make a great quadreme or such if it was retextured.

BiffQJ

May 14, 2010, 04:18 PM

I know that you're not giving an ETA on the version, but is there any way you could give a hint as to what civs are mainly impacted? I'm starting a new game soon and am trying to decide who to be. Thanks!

Valkrionn

May 14, 2010, 05:56 PM

Hadn't I already? :p

Clan
Bannor

Related changes, though the Clan have been adjusted for it far more.

Sheaim

Adjustments for the Gate, reason to allow hell terrain spread, new UU

D'tesh

Check the thread. Far too many here. :p

Grigori

Without going into specifics... Better usage of the new Adventurer spawn mechanic, and a few new related mechanics.

Dural

(NOT IMPLEMENTED YET) Some Greek flavor to differentiate them from the Grigori.

Mechanos

(NOT IMPLEMENTED YET) Ordo removed, new units, balance adjustments.

Frozen

Updated to the latest version... Far better balanced.

Doviello

Updated for all the new animals, some minor adjustments made (Recon of a high enough level can use Mesmerize Animal, for example)

Archos

Updated spider mechanics, gained a new mechanic which will encourage settling in areas that otherwise would not be utilized.

Kahdi

Removed. Nixed. Killed off. However you want to put it.

Think that's it, aside from barbs... May be wrong, however. :p

Valkrionn

May 14, 2010, 05:59 PM

BiffQJ

May 15, 2010, 03:34 AM

Thanks!

Gladi

May 15, 2010, 04:30 AM

Hello again.
So my last multiplayer game as Scions of Patria caused me to think again. There are a lot of critters who can see invisible units and Themoch is very crunchy and immortality does not work all that well...

How about allowing councillors to be ressurected? Is it possible? Or has the respawning of immortal units been fixed?

/]rchon

May 15, 2010, 08:51 AM

Valkrionn

May 15, 2010, 11:12 AM

Thanks!

No problem. ;)

We'll be more specific with all the changes as we get closer to the release... The Clan had a rather fundamental change, but for the better IMO.

Hello again.
So my last multiplayer game as Scions of Patria caused me to think again. There are a lot of critters who can see invisible units and Themoch is very crunchy and immortality does not work all that well...

How about allowing councillors to be ressurected? Is it possible? Or has the respawning of immortal units been fixed?

Immortality has been fixed. ;)

rchon;9190931']Thats a nice list of updates there, for the new units for the Mechanos will that include my new Steamtank and Goliath if they can get finished up on time, and what other new units will be introduced?

If they are finished and animated, yes.

As it is, it will be a revisit of the Naval line... Some Thopters. ;)

Camper Joe

May 16, 2010, 02:14 AM

From my understanding, the Jotnar are supposed to be a dwindling, even dying, race of giants living among/enslaving goblins. I love the new 3-tile mechanic you've added, as it makes more sense in the lore aspect of the civilization, but I must ask- Why are most of their units shown in groups of 3-5? It doesn't make very much sense to me, as to how a dying race would amass an army with more soldiers per squad than any human civilization. I would like to see more models like the Jotnar Berserker- one intimidating giant. It gives off the feel that your unit is powerful, but you must use them wisely.. Basically it reinforces the main point of the Jotnar lore and play style.

I like the models very much, but their are just too many, in my opinion.

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 02:34 AM

sylvain5477

May 16, 2010, 08:29 AM

That was to make the Packmaster mechanic work (can't ADD models, just change them; So you need enough models for the animals). I may remove it; if so, models will go back down.

You could have a big default number of model and decrease the number of model with promotion for unit which should have less (check the screenshot of Tears to see the result, considering that each group is the same unit with only a different promotion)
I could give you my XML if you like (but I'm sure you can manage :D)

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 09:36 AM

You could have a big default number of model and decrease the number of model with promotion for unit which should have less (check the screenshot of Tears to see the result, considering that each group is the same unit with only a different promotion)
I could give you my XML if you like (but I'm sure you can manage :D)

Ah, true. Tag on the hero promotion which forces just one unit to show. Had forgotten about it... And I'm not the one who implemented the system in any case. :p

Yeah, will do that if the system is kept.

Ilyes

May 16, 2010, 10:46 AM

Hello. This is one of my first posts. Let me say that I appreciate your mod very much, and I would like to make some suggestions (just a few thoughts I had)

1) Don't know if it's taboo or something, but... the Lanun need some love! I really love the work you did with the Malakim, but flavour-wise I think the Lanun got a little left behind. I would suggest just a small change, the ability to ignore terrain movement cost at sea; that is, the ability to move through those annoying kelps/sargassos... I think they spawn too much, too rapidly. Another mechanic that I found interesting was Wildmana's making pirate ports spawn barbarian pirates... but I dont think it's something that can be imported in RfE?

2) Please nerf the Frozen. Don't know if it's a bug in my games, but their worldspell ends up giving that dreaded promotion to every-single-unit on the worldmap at the time of the casting. This, combined with the "pass promotion in battle" mechanics, simply ends up making Frozen own something like 198+ population cities (and a horde of Tar demons).

3) I really love the Malakim and their trade economy, but perhaps the food/money bonus is too much? I always end up with 30+ population cities (although that could be cause by the food resources spawning on floodplains farms, something that I could not be used to), and TONS of gold, even at 100% reserach. Combined with the Guild of the 9, I can rush opponents with hordes of mercenaries -thus conquering more cities, expanding the empire and gaining even more gold per turn. Consider giving the Malakim a sobstitute wonder, like the Kurios with City of a Thousand Slums, and restriting the Merchant trait to foreign routes.

4) Omnipotence victory seems a little hard to achieve for non-calabim, it requires an absurd ampunt of experience. I also think the different "master of [sphere] and [sphere]" promotions are a little weak give the effort one needs to reach them. Perhaps allowing a D&D-esque "wizard specialist" promotion could raise the XP gain rate?

5) Request: please, oh please -bring back ye olde FfH "Patriarch" unit promotion. I always though it was unique and rewarding, never understood why it was cut out. :(

6) We aldready have civ-based events and regligion-based, why not make civics-based events?

7) General flattery & sicophantic compliments.

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 11:03 AM

Hello. This is one of my first posts. Let me say that I appreciate your mod very much, and I would like to make some suggestions (just a few thoughts I had)

Glad you like it! And this entire thread was made for people to make suggestions in, so feel free. ;)

1) Don't know if it's taboo or something, but... the Lanun need some love! I really love the work you did with the Malakim, but flavour-wise I think the Lanun got a little left behind. I would suggest just a small change, the ability to ignore terrain movement cost at sea; that is, the ability to move through those annoying kelps/sargassos... I think they spawn too much, too rapidly. Another mechanic that I found interesting was Wildmana's making pirate ports spawn barbarian pirates... but I dont think it's something that can be imported in RifE?

Making their naval units immune to terrain cost would be fitting. Makes them want to actively seek out the Kelp, rather than avoid it... I think I'll add that.

Kelp spawn needs to be toned down. Set too high currently.

A pirate faction likely won't happen. It's entirely possible to add, I just do not want to. :p

2) Please nerf the Frozen. Don't know if it's a bug in my games, but their worldspell ends up giving that dreaded promotion to every-single-unit on the worldmap at the time of the casting. This, combined with the "pass promotion in battle" mechanics, simply ends up making Frozen own something like 198+ population cities (and a horde of Tar demons).

Already done. The next version is far more balanced.

3) I really love the Malakim and their trade economy, but perhaps the food/money bonus is too much? I always end up with 30+ population cities (although that could be cause by the food resources spawning on floodplains farms, something that I could not be used to), and TONS of gold, even at 100% reserach. Combined with the Guild of the 9, I can rush opponents with hordes of mercenaries -thus conquering more cities, expanding the empire and gaining even more gold per turn. Consider giving the Malakim a sobstitute wonder, like the Kurios with City of a Thousand Slums, and restriting the Merchant trait to foreign routes.

Will look at it. I actually encourage merc use with them, but having the trait effect just Foreign routes would be good... Just have to add code allowing that.

4) Omnipotence victory seems a little hard to achieve for non-calabim, it requires an absurd ampunt of experience. I also think the different "master of [sphere] and [sphere]" promotions are a little weak give the effort one needs to reach them. Perhaps allowing a D&D-esque "wizard specialist" promotion could raise the XP gain rate?

There is no Omnipotence victory. Likely won't be either; I don't see it as different enough from the Tower of Mastery victory. To get all those spells, you need all the manas. Which is what the Tower victory represents.

The initial Mastery promotions are also free, so long as you meet the requirements. Not supposed to be super strong, just a nice boost.

5) Request: please, oh please -bring back ye olde FfH "Patriarch" unit promotion. I always though it was unique and rewarding, never understood why it was cut out. :(

What exactly did it do? Don't think it was there when I started playing.

6) We aldready have civ-based events and regligion-based, why not make civics-based events?

We have some, it's just not widely used.

7) General flattery & sicophantic compliments.

-Substitute generic meatbag social response here- :borg:

Vainglory

May 16, 2010, 11:27 AM

What exactly did it do? Don't think it was there when I started playing.

The patriarch promotion was given to the highest level priest of a religion. He had a spell (which I forgot the name of) that forced all civilizations with the same state religion to declare war on the enemies of the patriarch's civ at the cost of a sizeable amount of experience. It was a flavorful and interesting mechanic, but it sort of steps onto the powers of the councils which, I believe, is the reason that it was removed.

It was, however, exciting to spread your religion far and wide then start a massive crusade against the heatens.

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 11:33 AM

The patriarch promotion was given to the highest level priest of a religion. He had a spell (which I forgot the name of) that forced all civilizations with the same state religion to declare war on the enemies of the patriarch's civ at the cost of a sizeable amount of experience. It was a flavorful and interesting mechanic, but it sort of steps onto the powers of the councils which, I believe, is the reason that it was removed.

It was, however, exciting to spread your religion far and wide then start a massive crusade against the heatens.

That's what I thought, just thought it was an upgrade, not a promotion.

I'm going to make a Patriarch unit for the Order, which upgrades from a high (level 10 or 12) level High Priest. Does the same thing.

Just don't see other religions calling for crusades. ;)

Ilyes

May 16, 2010, 11:43 AM

What exactly did it do? Don't think it was there when I started playing.

Well, I'll try my best to explain it.

Basically, each religion's highest level High Priest gets the "Patriarch" promotion for free. So you get a Patriarch for the Empyrean, one for the Order and so on (the Council of Esus doesn't get one).

Owning a Patriarch gets you the "You own the Patriarch" positive diplomacy modifier with other civilizations sharing your religion. I remember it was something substantial, like +6, or you could just rule that it maxes out the "brothers and sisters of the faith" modifier (which, if I recall correctly, improves over time).

But the patriarch's most useful ability was to declare a Holy War, making the unit lose 10 XP (thus maybe losing the Patriarch status) and forcing every other civilization sharing the its religion to declare war againts "enemies of the faith" (that is, every civilization at war with the Patriarch's). I -think- the AI weighted this when considering its opponent defenses in a potential war, and it weighted it A LOT.
----
Writing it now, I realize it had a clunky mechanic: open to abuse, possibly annoying in multyplayer games, maybe difficult to use in the hands of the AI. Still, I think it could work well with a few tweaks. Awaiting your opinion. :)
---
Ninja'd. Oh, well... Order is good, is good... it will make the Bannor even more warmongering.
Consider adding the Octopus Overlords to the crusading religions: "THE OVERLORDS HAVE SPOKEN! DROWN THE HEATHENS!"

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 11:51 AM

Well, I'll try my best to explain it.

Basically, each religion's highest level High Priest gets the "Patriarch" promotion for free. So you get a Patriarch for the Empyrean, one for the Order and so on (the Council of Esus doesn't get one).

Owning a Patriarch gets you the "You own the Patriarch" positive diplomacy modifier with other civilizations sharing your religion. I remember it was something substantial, like +6, or you could just rule that it maxes out the "brothers and sisters of the faith" modifier (which, if I recall correctly, improves over time).

But the patriarch's most useful ability was to declare a Holy War, making the unit lose 10 XP (thus maybe losing the Patriarch status) and forcing every other civilization sharing the its religion to declare war againts "enemies of the faith" (that is, every civilization at war with the Patriarch's). I -think- the AI weighted this when considering its opponent defenses in a potential war, and it weighted it A LOT.
----
Writing it now, I realize it had a clunky mechanic: open to abuse, possibly annoying in multyplayer games, maybe difficult to use in the hands of the AI. Still, I think it could work well with a few tweaks. Awaiting your opinion. :)
---
Ninja'd. Oh, well... Order is good, is good... it will make the Bannor even more warmongering. Consider adding the Octopus Overlords to the crusading religion: "THE OVERLORDS HAVE SPOKEN! DROWN THE HEATHENS!"

I don't think it would work for OO. Each priest pays respect to a different lord, and can change at any moment... It's not a united religion.

Those which ARE united would be Order, Empy, RoK, WH, and AV... Empy I don't see using it, same with RoK. White Hand could, as could AV, but if I'm not giving it to ALL of them, I'd give it to just the Order.

Ilyes

May 16, 2010, 11:56 AM

It's fine; suits the Order's militaristic nature. Glad I could help. :D

Cyrusfan

May 16, 2010, 03:21 PM

It might make sense for some of the ideas floating around about the White Hand, as Auric Ulvin would almost certainly be Patriarch most of the time (at least I think his unit class changes to divine at some point), as he'd have a big head start on his fellow priests. AV probably doesn't make sense unless you make the Hyborem unit divine (I don't know what it is currently).

I think other civs should have the option to turn down the holy war, but be forced to switch religions if they do so, and take huge diplomatic penalties with those that keep the faith (that don't go away quickly if they switch back).

Elwist

May 16, 2010, 04:11 PM

It seems to me that it would be far more interesting to have a different patriarch ability for each religion. That would mean the order would probably have the original everyone joins the fight while the others could have things that actually fit what that religion is like.

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 04:32 PM

This is true, and if enough ideas are generated I could do that.

Order

Holy War

Empy

No idea.

RoK

I've got nothing.

FoL

Some kind of avatar, maybe? Allow the Patriarch to 'become' the forest... Giant treeant.

OO

No idea here; Should not be innately evil, or good. Just Chaotic. Should also deal with waves.

AV

Something dealing with Hell terrain... Possibly have the Patriarch become a Demon Lord, very strong but limited to Hell Terrain?

Esus

No idea... not even sure it should have one, but that would be crippling if all the others do.

White Hand

Maybe allow it to cast a mini-stasis, affecting just those cities within X tiles?

Airandamar

Move along. :mischief:

BiffQJ

May 16, 2010, 05:33 PM

A small (I think) suggestion: Has there been any thought of giving Mokka some type of item? I believe the in game description says something to the effect that Mokka got some item and is now trying to create a realm for frostlings. It seems that Mokka should have something (maybe a staff that can cast a nerfed version of frozen lands?). It would also give some incentive for the Ilians to actually build Samhain...

Cyrusfan

May 16, 2010, 06:46 PM

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 06:56 PM

Airandamar? Um, okay, is that term going to show up anywhere in a search (yes, obviously it's the new religion you've been hinting at for a while) or is it completely new?

And are their any Esus divine units?

RoK:Well I'm always getting an event for a Dwarven transmuter (no, I like my gold), so how about an ability to turn existing mineral resources into another mineral resource?

OO:Affect any single civ's relationship with any single other as if it had won or lost a game of Somnium (can only be applied to relationships without any Somnium effect currently).

FoL:Bonus to attack/defend all forest types comparable to all Woodsman promos (passive) copies all promos to summons (which would give high priest of leaves a super treant).

Empy:High damage effect to enemy units in specific area (use the existing nuke explosion graphic),

AV:Strength set equal to AC for one turn.

Where you choose to activate these things, I'm assuming the XP expenditure indicated for holy war (thus the patriarch promo could be lost on the following turn, otherwise the effects I've indicated are far too powerful). The passive FoL effect might have to get a parallel in some others.

Airandamar - It's actually Quenya. Not going to say the meaning, if you can hodge it together that's fine. The meaning gives away part of the theme, however, so please keep it to yourself if you do. ;)

I was actually not planning on it being a promotion, but a unique UPGRADE. First priest to get there gets it; There's no loosing it afterwards, unless you switch religion.

Oranos

May 16, 2010, 09:25 PM

Airandamar? Um, okay, is that term going to show up anywhere in a search (yes, obviously it's the new religion you've been hinting at for a while) or is it completely new?

And are their any Esus divine units?

RoK:Well I'm always getting an event for a Dwarven transmuter (no, I like my gold), so how about an ability to turn existing mineral resources into another mineral resource?

OO:Affect any single civ's relationship with any single other as if it had won or lost a game of Somnium (can only be applied to relationships without any Somnium effect currently).

FoL:Bonus to attack/defend all forest types comparable to all Woodsman promos (passive) copies all promos to summons (which would give high priest of leaves a super treant).

Empy:High damage effect to enemy units in specific area (use the existing nuke explosion graphic),

AV:Strength set equal to AC for one turn.

Where you choose to activate these things, I'm assuming the XP expenditure indicated for holy war (thus the patriarch promo could be lost on the following turn, otherwise the effects I've indicated are far too powerful). The passive FoL effect might have to get a parallel in some others.

No, CoE does not have any divine units. They would perhaps need a few extra unique bonuses to make up for the lack of a patriarch unit. Or maybe another unique hero that requires the CoE holy city. OO seems a little underpowered, no ideas of my own though. For the AV spell, is that just the patriarch or is it all units in the patriarch's stack?

I was actually not planning on it being a promotion, but a unique UPGRADE. First priest to get there gets it; There's no loosing it afterwards, unless you switch religion.

If it's going to be an upgrade that doesn't go away, a cooldown time for the patriarch spell would probably be in order. Don't know if that's possible, not speaking Python myself.

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 09:32 PM

Cooldowns are easily done; Tie the spell to a promotion on the unit, have the spell remove that promotion and add a new one which degrades to the original in X turns.

Evalis

May 16, 2010, 10:59 PM

OO is underpowered?! Are you nuts? Have you ever even used lunatics? Those guys are crazy powerful for their tech level. 7/4... that's arguably better than champions, since you'll be using archers for your defense. Honestly I'm not even sure how that religion gets away with it..

Valkrionn

May 16, 2010, 11:10 PM

Cyrusfan

May 16, 2010, 11:29 PM

Yeah, setting a unit's strength equal to the AC would be a one turn at a time, just that unit deal. As for OO, I'm just trying to brainstorm 'chaos.' In keeping with the Order, maybe it could force war between a random two players? That would need a really long cooldown, though.

Evalis

May 16, 2010, 11:34 PM

He meant the IDEA for OO is underpowered. Not the religion itself, the Patriarch.

Oh :blush: apparently I need to learn to read >.>

Valkrionn

May 17, 2010, 12:07 AM

For OO, it should be something that is a manifestation of the Ocean as well as Chaos...

Hmm. How about this for a general setup?

Early religions (OO, RoK, FoL) have their Patriarch become an Avatar. Some manifestation of the god's power; Mithril Golem could become the RoK avatar, even, though I'd prefer it not to be.

Mid religions (Order, AV) gain a powerful priest, with a strong ability... In the case of Order, the standard patriarch.

High religions (Empy, Esus) I have no idea on.

White Hand and Airandamar could fit in either of the first two, they're both a sort of middle ground in cost.

So, in keeping with that... OO would gain an avatar of some kind, a physical representation of one of the overlords. Could either A)Allow the player to choose which one (just make a few different versions... Strength, Defense, Mobility, Magic, Ranged) or B)Have it change randomly.

I'd be in favor of B.

sinner003

May 17, 2010, 12:43 AM

hmm...for OO((octopus Overlords)) it should also represent its cthuhlu roots, something that has to do with madness and such...mebbe an overlord of some type, or nyarlathotep, who in Lovecraft, was the most powerful of the outer gods, and was a link between the cults, and their alien gods...

for fellowship of the leaves, why not something pulled out of the storyline? a powerful god or angel that represents the forests...?

for empyrean, they care for the sun and such, as well as justice...they should be allowed something that represents their ways...

also...in the storyline, theres a powerful blight that is killing the elven forests, which thessa stops by killing her betrothed...perhaps that can be represented somewhere...a forest killing power or somesuch...as well as a forest growing power...

Divvu

May 17, 2010, 01:35 AM

nyarlathotep, who in Lovecraft, was the most powerful of the outer gods

Actually he's a servant to all the other gods...
If he were free tough, that could be true. Big N could never compete to the sheer, mindless, nuclear power of Azathot, but the capability of free tought is something that should be considered.

(Power without control is... Deadly!)

Edit: As it stands, the most powerful (if with powerful we intend the potential to "obtain" something) outer god should Be Yog-Sothoth

That said, I would like to make a question. Just a random tought and totally unrelated to anything that was discussed. I would like to know, how hard would it be to implement a new game option? I had this idea today, after a long, drawn game as the Ljos.
You all know the "Just one more turn" option you get when you win.
Now, since we already have an "high to low" option, would it be possible to allow a civilization change in the endgame? Sometimes I would like to try myself against the superpowers I have created :p
Just random toughts, feel free to ignore!

maglock

May 17, 2010, 03:32 AM

In my current (and first RiFE) game as the D'Tesh, I noticed that surviving the early game is rather tough.

I had a minotaur with promotions and Orthos rock up to my second city and annihilate it. The warriors only have strength 2. Totally inadequate for defence.

So either

a) I suck at D'Tesh (yep), or
b) D'Tesh need some sort of defensive boost to survive Orthos and friends.

If a), what is the strategy for early game D'Tesh to increase their survivability ?

Divvu

May 17, 2010, 03:48 AM

a) I suck at D'Tesh (yep), or
b) D'Tesh need some sort of defensive boost to survive Orthos and friends.

D'tesh are going to get a major overhaul in next versions. The problems you are referring to (weak early game) are known.
Could I suggest you to try another civ while we wait for 1.3 :) ?
If you want some undead-flavour you could try Scions of Patria, very unique civ, and already full shaped (altough I don't know if and how much they will change in the future :p I think they are quite stable as it is)

Ilyes

May 17, 2010, 04:00 AM

Early religions (OO, RoK, FoL) have their Patriarch become an Avatar. Some manifestation of the god's power; Mithril Golem could become the RoK avatar, even, though I'd prefer it not to be.

OMg these ideas are so cool, I can't believe I started this.:lol:

Avatar concept is very good, since all these religions are somehow "nature-themed" it suits well the idea of somehow bringing a piece of your faith into the material world.

FoL could have a mid-strenght but uber-versatile Patriarch that gains various bonuses and promotions on terrain? It is a religion open to much intepretation, and getting a treant/treehugging patriarch while playing Lanun or Malakim would be near useless.

Making the Mithril Golem RoK's Avatar is... interesting. Does it mean that the high priest somehow "converts" himself to a golem, piece by piece? Or that it dies, and his soul passes into the statue?

OO, let's see... chaos, madness, water... something like an island-swallowing monster? The Leviathan itself? They already have an arcane unit, and quite strong, so I'm stumped. Perhaps making the Leviathan OO's second hero, and making the high priest upgrade to a Hemah-like, divine/arcane hybrid?

Mid religions (Order, AV) gain a powerful priest, with a strong ability... In the case of Order, the standard patriarch.

Hell Terrain ususally spreads from the AV holy city, right? How about making it spread from the patriarch, or making him auto-terraforms tiles into hell terrain?
----

On a completely different matter: is Iron supposed to be that rare? I found it to be scarcer than Mithril.

isthmus

May 17, 2010, 04:49 AM

Sooo.. I have some ideas too :)
I think having tiers of these superunits would also help to balance the 'tiers' of relgions as well, especially since they tend to be 'bottom heavy' at the moment.

1st tier: I was thinking that these religions should just get quite strong priests, with unique niches. Maybe with a special ability but nothing crazy (apart from OO, they're always crazy).

*FoL - A strong druid/priest hybrid. Comes with the animal capture promos and is authorised to gain the benefits the *new* animal related changes. Effectively a fusion of the two tech trees FoL priests can go down.
*RoK - Don't care much for the mithril golem being the patriarch. I was thinking a prospector or runelord. Has access to some buffing abilities to all melee units, can transmute resources, and a spell that temporarily provides a building in a city that boosts production and maybe has free engineers. Can also fight himself but that's not the idea behind this one.
*OO - I think that this one should be a high priest who carts around with him a powerful dreamer or host of a powerful overlord. Is an arcane/priest hybrid and has a set of unique spells that could cause temporary enraged (in both friends and foes? not sure yet. I suppose if you have law mana then you can prepare for it), direct damage, summon drowns/stygs, obviously tsunami, possible a stack-wide water walking?

2nd tier: These guys should be powerful in direct strength, as well as having a powerful ability. Expect these guys on the front lines. Should also get the hero promotion as a bonus.
*Order - Pretty standard global war caller, but also pretty damn strong. Big demon basher. I'd like to see him have some kind of inspiration effect on nearby friendly units and maybe a holy fire spell (holy version of empyrean crown of brilliance) as well. Expect this guy on the front lines.
*AV - I'm very much up for the ascension idea. Why harness the demonic powers when you could become one yourself? Carries the perks (spells, strength etc) that come with demonhood, but also the cons (the order patriarch will hunt you down and melt you :)) Would be good to have a hell terrain spread spell and obviously he'd have stigmata to make it worth his while.

3rd tier: Keeping with the current theme of empy having the god-like chalid, the patriarch should be on a similar level for these guys.
*Esus: So a super-shadow, upgrades to the patriarch from the standard shadow. Can teleport, escape, spreads esus religion to your recon units. Also, he's immortal. Reason for this could either be he's very very sneaky, every time he's caught it turns out to be a decoy, or that he's so sneaky he finds his way out of hell in no time every time. Would it be possibly for him to ignore guardsmen promotion too? Comes with all the esus recon promotions and can bribe non-loyal units on the same tile (he'll be hidden and so can do that)
*Empy: Should really be chalid :) can't actually think of anyone that isn't a chalid clone basically...

Valkrionn

May 17, 2010, 01:30 PM

OMg these ideas are so cool, I can't believe I started this.:lol:

Avatar concept is very good, since all these religions are somehow "nature-themed" it suits well the idea of somehow bringing a piece of your faith into the material world.

FoL could have a mid-strenght but uber-versatile Patriarch that gains various bonuses and promotions on terrain? It is a religion open to much intepretation, and getting a treant/treehugging patriarch while playing Lanun or Malakim would be near useless.

Making the Mithril Golem RoK's Avatar is... interesting. Does it mean that the high priest somehow "converts" himself to a golem, piece by piece? Or that it dies, and his soul passes into the statue?

OO, let's see... chaos, madness, water... something like an island-swallowing monster? The Leviathan itself? They already have an arcane unit, and quite strong, so I'm stumped. Perhaps making the Leviathan OO's second hero, and making the high priest upgrade to a Hemah-like, divine/arcane hybrid?

Hell Terrain ususally spreads from the AV holy city, right? How about making it spread from the patriarch, or making him auto-terraforms tiles into hell terrain?
----

On a completely different matter: is Iron supposed to be that rare? I found it to be scarcer than Mithril.

FoL avatar would be based on terrain, definitely. Bezeri are meant to go FoL, Lanun have either OO or FoL (Kelp Forests ftw), so it would have to be open to coastal/aquatic civs.

BUT I think Isthmus has some good ideas below... ;)

Sooo.. I have some ideas too :)
I think having tiers of these superunits would also help to balance the 'tiers' of relgions as well, especially since they tend to be 'bottom heavy' at the moment.

That is a very good point. I still like the idea of an avatar for some, but I suppose we can make that more... special? The only one I really want to use it for is FoL, honestly, as like I said, needs to be useful for all FoL civs. Which are: Elves, Doviello, Bezeri. So standard terrain, tundra, and ocean. Quite diverse. ;)

1st tier: I was thinking that these religions should just get quite strong priests, with unique niches. Maybe with a special ability but nothing crazy (apart from OO, they're always crazy).

*FoL - A strong druid/priest hybrid. Comes with the animal capture promos and is authorised to gain the benefits the *new* animal related changes. Effectively a fusion of the two tech trees FoL priests can go down.
*RoK - Don't care much for the mithril golem being the patriarch. I was thinking a prospector or runelord. Has access to some buffing abilities to all melee units, can transmute resources, and a spell that temporarily provides a building in a city that boosts production and maybe has free engineers. Can also fight himself but that's not the idea behind this one.
*OO - I think that this one should be a high priest who carts around with him a powerful dreamer or host of a powerful overlord. Is an arcane/priest hybrid and has a set of unique spells that could cause temporary enraged (in both friends and foes? not sure yet. I suppose if you have law mana then you can prepare for it), direct damage, summon drowns/stygs, obviously tsunami, possible a stack-wide water walking?

How about this for FoL?

High Priests are able to gain the new animal promotions.
The Patriarch is an Avatar, gains strength based on the terrain/features, and abilities based on terrain. Total strength should be no more than 15.
I simply want the changing abilities/strength, which don't work nicely with just a priest; Would need waterwalking, don't want to do that.

For RoK; Your runelord idea fits with another change I have in mind, so it works.

Your OO idea is good as well.

2nd tier: These guys should be powerful in direct strength, as well as having a powerful ability. Expect these guys on the front lines. Should also get the hero promotion as a bonus.
*Order - Pretty standard global war caller, but also pretty damn strong. Big demon basher. I'd like to see him have some kind of inspiration effect on nearby friendly units and maybe a holy fire spell (holy version of empyrean crown of brilliance) as well. Expect this guy on the front lines.
*AV - I'm very much up for the ascension idea. Why harness the demonic powers when you could become one yourself? Carries the perks (spells, strength etc) that come with demonhood, but also the cons (the order patriarch will hunt you down and melt you :)) Would be good to have a hell terrain spread spell and obviously he'd have stigmata to make it worth his while.

Order - Definitely.

AV - Yes. Becomes a Demon Lord, can spread hell, stigmata, etc.

3rd tier: Keeping with the current theme of empy having the god-like chalid, the patriarch should be on a similar level for these guys.
*Esus: So a super-shadow, upgrades to the patriarch from the standard shadow. Can teleport, escape, spreads esus religion to your recon units. Also, he's immortal. Reason for this could either be he's very very sneaky, every time he's caught it turns out to be a decoy, or that he's so sneaky he finds his way out of hell in no time every time. Would it be possibly for him to ignore guardsmen promotion too? Comes with all the esus recon promotions and can bribe non-loyal units on the same tile (he'll be hidden and so can do that)
*Empy: Should really be chalid :) can't actually think of anyone that isn't a chalid clone basically...

Esus - I like that idea. Should give it some very nice power, making up for the lack it currently has.

Empy - I wouldn't be opposed to using a (slightly buffed; Regains Pillar of Fire?) Chalid as the patriarch. But to do that, we need a new hero. :lol:

Also, what do you think for White Hand? Airandamar, of course, has no info posted yet, so won't ask about that one. It also likely won't be in 1.3... Will be in 1.4, as I'll do that while the others are implementing some of the new leaders. ;)

sinner003

May 17, 2010, 04:13 PM

what about a life elemental or mebbe a personification of nature itself as a FoL avatar?
something that has different abilities depending on which terrain it was on...?
like...higher defense on tundra, higher attack on normal, higher speed on water, ignores movement costs on forests and kelp and such, and can mebbe cross mountains?
a little powerful, yes, but its abilities change depending on which square its on, so, they wont all be there at once.

Valkrionn

May 17, 2010, 04:15 PM

isthmus

May 17, 2010, 05:41 PM

FoL avatar would be based on terrain, definitely. Bezeri are meant to go FoL, Lanun have either OO or FoL (Kelp Forests ftw), so it would have to be open to coastal/aquatic civs.
How about this for FoL?

[LIST]
High Priests are able to gain the new animal promotions.
The Patriarch is an Avatar, gains strength based on the terrain/features, and abilities based on terrain. Total strength should be no more than 15.

I think that sounds pretty good. I think that druids should actually be able to gain the animal promotions as well, if this doesn't unbalance them.
For the patriarch, probably some nature sphere spirit or archangel would work. I'd prefer the spirit ascension since the archangels are pretty much set. Obviously nature caters for most of the features around erebus and this could fit with whatever environment (or civ that uses that environment) is around. The priest could be so in tune with nature that they become one with it - beyond a druid. I'd probably actually change the patriarch ascension for FoL to be from a druid, not a high priest. Seems odd for them to go down the theology route when commune with nature suits them better, in terms of the location of their heroes and general theme. Unfortunely alignment might stop this, but maybe like the cualli hero the first priest capable of upgrading becomes the hero/patriarch, who will have no alignment condition. Don't know how easy/possible this is though.

Esus - I like that idea. Should give it some very nice power, making up for the lack it currently has.

Empy - I wouldn't be opposed to using a (slightly buffed; Regains Pillar of Fire?) Chalid as the patriarch. But to do that, we need a new hero. :lol:

I honestly can't think of anyone that better embodies empy in terms of strength than Chalid. Maybe the patriarch could focus on the enlightenment and equality part of empy, not the power of the sun bit?
Also needs to be powerful though, I think the late religions need to have a definite advantage. Possibly a chief member of the overcouncil? Would provide major economic benefits. Chalid is the muscle and the patriarch is the brains, put very simply.

Also, what do you think for White Hand? Airandamar, of course, has no info posted yet, so won't ask about that one. It also likely won't be in 1.3... Will be in 1.4, as I'll do that while the others are implementing some of the new leaders. ;)
Sorry completely forgot about the white hand - obviously I'll leave Airandamar out of this so far - but I assume that they're middle-ish tier? You posted a list of the relgion tiers in terms of when they arrive at some point and I think they were grouped together somewhere in the middle.

With the white hand it's hard to pick a patriarch - auric is obviously the main focus of this religion in the time period we're interested in, but adding a patriarch for the illians is a bit much considering that it's a illian dominated religion. I'd propose a patriarch that other civs can build (similar to how boris for the ordo is done now). Illians already have auric and the priest trio. Something that counterbalances the fact that they've given up much of their tile yield. I'd link a certain new mechanic that has been showcased in the testers forum to the patriarch of the religion. When he's built, you gain tile yields on ice/tundra/glacier similar to that of the illians.

Valkrionn

May 17, 2010, 06:14 PM

I think that sounds pretty good. I think that druids should actually be able to gain the animal promotions as well, if this doesn't unbalance them.
For the patriarch, probably some nature sphere spirit or archangel would work. I'd prefer the spirit ascension since the archangels are pretty much set. Obviously nature caters for most of the features around erebus and this could fit with whatever environment (or civ that uses that environment) is around. The priest could be so in tune with nature that they become one with it - beyond a druid. I'd probably actually change the patriarch ascension for FoL to be from a druid, not a high priest. Seems odd for them to go down the theology route when commune with nature suits them better, in terms of the location of their heroes and general theme. Unfortunely alignment might stop this, but maybe like the cualli hero the first priest capable of upgrading becomes the hero/patriarch, who will have no alignment condition. Don't know how easy/possible this is though.

Allowing both High Priests and Druids to upgrade to it would work; Would just have to make sure that it only upgrades if you are following FoL.

But yes, that's the basic idea I have. Some kind of embodiment of the sphere... Hell, could even become the archangel, as I don't think Cernunnos has one now that he controls the sphere. Would need input on that from someone more knowledgeable... But if any of the gods would allow a human to ascend to archangel status, it would be the one who himself ascended.

I honestly can't think of anyone that better embodies empy in terms of strength than Chalid. Maybe the patriarch could focus on the enlightenment and equality part of empy, not the power of the sun bit?
Also needs to be powerful though, I think the late religions need to have a definite advantage. Possibly a chief member of the overcouncil? Would provide major economic benefits. Chalid is the muscle and the patriarch is the brains, put very simply.

That could work... Kind of a counter to the Order patriarch.

Provides empire benefits, diplomatic bonuses, etc.

Sorry completely forgot about the white hand - obviously I'll leave Airandamar out of this so far - but I assume that they're middle-ish tier? You posted a list of the relgion tiers in terms of when they arrive at some point and I think they were grouped together somewhere in the middle.

With the white hand it's hard to pick a patriarch - auric is obviously the main focus of this religion in the time period we're interested in, but adding a patriarch for the illians is a bit much considering that it's a illian dominated religion. I'd propose a patriarch that other civs can build (similar to how boris for the ordo is done now). Illians already have auric and the priest trio. Something that counterbalances the fact that they've given up much of their tile yield. I'd link a certain new mechanic that has been showcased in the testers forum to the patriarch of the religion. When he's built, you gain tile yields on ice/tundra/glacier similar to that of the illians.

Yes; Both White Hand and Airandamar will come in between the low tier (FoL) religions, and the mid tier (Order) religions. It's actually why Hunting is being dropped in cost a bit... Want FoL to cost the same as RoK and OO.

A patriarch that cannot be used by the Illians or Frozen... Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that, honestly.

PM me what mechanic you have in mind? There are several, so I have no idea what you mean. :p