View Full Version : RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback


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PPQ_Purple
May 23, 2010, 09:37 AM
tidy up their garden?

Druids are all about being one with nature and natures balance as opposed to paladins and those demon things that only want to burn each other. Druids fit neutral quite well IMHO.

This said, any word on when we can get the next version? I am tired of the game crashing on me and animals destroying half the civs before turn 50.

Mufus
May 23, 2010, 10:17 AM
tidy up their garden?

Druids are all about being one with nature and natures balance as opposed to paladins and those demon things that only want to burn each other. Druids fit neutral quite well IMHO.

But that's the D&D simplistic way of looking at it. For example, the evil elves have no more interest than the good or the neutral elves in turning the world into terrain hell and setting fire to everything. They may be cruel, heartless and evil but they like their trees and lands pristine.

This said, any word on when we can get the next version? I am tired of the game crashing on me and animals destroying half the civs before turn 50.

Turn on "timid animals" in the latest patch. That prevents the str 24 tigers wiping out civilizations...

Valkrionn
May 23, 2010, 11:13 AM
While there are a few small advantages to being "Neutral" as opposed to "Good" or "Evil" there are some severe balance problems with random events, especially in the starting period of the game.

Why? Both Good and Evil leaders get random events where for a small amount of gold they can get a Great Prophet (or a sizeable boost to research). Neutral leaders don't get this and so are at a severe disadvantage from both the shortage of Great Prophets or the boost to research.

Also, why does RiFE stick to the daft D&D'ism where only "neutrals" can be Druids? You can be a good or an evil person and still like to tend the garden! Neutrals would obviously need some form of paladin, etc replacement but it shouldn't be a druid (which should really be available to anybody who wants to tidy up their garden).

Druids are neutral because they represent the sphere of Nature, which is ALSO neutral. In the lore, heavy use of any one sphere will make you represent that sphere more and more... It's why Evil magic is (in the lore, at least) typically avoided by the Amurites.

tidy up their garden?

Druids are all about being one with nature and natures balance as opposed to paladins and those demon things that only want to burn each other. Druids fit neutral quite well IMHO.

This said, any word on when we can get the next version? I am tired of the game crashing on me and animals destroying half the civs before turn 50.

No idea as yet. Depends on how fast I can work on things... Lots of changes left to do, but most of them are done at this point. :goodjob:

But that's the D&D simplistic way of looking at it. For example, the evil elves have no more interest than the good or the neutral elves in turning the world into terrain hell and setting fire to everything. They may be cruel, heartless and evil but they like their trees and lands pristine.

Turn on "timid animals" in the latest patch. That prevents the str 24 tigers wiping out civilizations...

Again, Druids are neutral because of the sphere they represent. You can actually expect MORE alignment-specific units, btw... The Law/Chaotic axis will be getting a few in 1.5.

Torugu
May 23, 2010, 02:40 PM
This has probably been answered before but since the forum search proved useless and it really bothers me I'll ask again: Why are the Kahdi going to be removed?

I have never played them, so I can't say that I know what I'm talking about but from what I've read in the civilopedia both their lore and their gameplay seemed pretty interesting... (Would have tried them out but I tend to choose all civs including my own randomly and I haven't got lucky yet.)

Valkrionn
May 23, 2010, 03:01 PM
This has probably been answered before but since the forum search proved useless and it really bothers me I'll ask again: Why are the Kahdi going to be removed?

I have never played them, so I can't say that I know what I'm talking about but from what I've read in the civilopedia both their lore and their gameplay seemed pretty interesting... (Would have tried them out but I tend to choose all civs including my own randomly and I haven't got lucky yet.)

The Kahdi are being removed because they are a bastardized hybrid of the Amurites and the Sheaim.

There simply isn't enough there to give all three civilizations a unique playstyle... The Kahdi step on the toes of both of the others.

They'll live on (sorta) as an Amurite-specific event. Think something along the lines of the Koun event.

sylvain5477
May 24, 2010, 10:12 AM
Would it be possible to make all climate-related functions visible through python (on plots) ?
I would like to make something relating to dynamic climate :)

Valkrionn
May 24, 2010, 12:05 PM
Would it be possible to make all climate-related functions visible through python (on plots) ?
I would like to make something relating to dynamic climate :)

I'm planning to expose the necessary tags for that, yes. ;)

Mufus
May 24, 2010, 04:02 PM
No real idea how others play religions in RiFE, but I've found that they're mostly useful for their bonuses (mana and effects/special techs/units) rather than for a religion as such. Only on the very rare occasion have I've only bothered with restricting to a single religion and using the Theocracy Civic rather than just foisting as many religions and temples as possible in every city. Theocracy really doens't offer any real advantages compared to rushing to get the holy city of every religion possible.

Aside from any wider arguments about Theocracies vs more liberal regimes (in RL, this is a game after all), the real strength in a religion in RiFE is from owning the holy city and once this has been taken by an opponent there's often little real value in pursuing one religion over aiming to establish another. Apart from frustrating this really devalues religious influence and the prospects of religions factionism... so...

No idea if this is possible (classic get out phrase), but would it be possible to put in place a scheme where if you don't start the religion you can start a strong sect of it instead. With work this sect could eventually become the dominant factor in a religion and in effect sieze control of the "holy city" status (and any special bonuses this may bring). No real idea on the dynamics, but this would prevent one civ from starting every religion possible with no intention of keeping most of them. If they want to keep a holy city of a religion then they have to work on it. It would introduce a whole new dynamic and largely prevent holy-city hogging.

Expanding on the religious side and producing more religion specific (but not overpowered, possibly just averagely better than normal) UUs would be nice as well. It would mean more to having a religion and would mean that even if a civ doesn't have the holy city of a particular religion they could still get useful UUs out of it. Currently there's usually just one UU per religion and these can tend to be "used" quite quickly.

I love the changes in RiFE where AV and Order can be in the same city, but tend to cause trouble. More effects like this would be nice as well :)

Valkrionn
May 24, 2010, 04:13 PM
No real idea how others play religions in RiFE, but I've found that they're mostly useful for their bonuses (mana and effects/special techs/units) rather than for a religion as such. Only on the very rare occasion have I've only bothered with restricting to a single religion and using the Theocracy Civic rather than just foisting as many religions and temples as possible in every city. Theocracy really doens't offer any real advantages compared to rushing to get the holy city of every religion possible.

Aside from any wider arguments about Theocracies vs more liberal regimes (in RL, this is a game after all), the real strength in a religion in RiFE is from owning the holy city and once this has been taken by an opponent there's often little real value in pursuing one religion over aiming to establish another. Apart from frustrating this really devalues religious influence and the prospects of religions factionism... so...

I find Theocracy in RifE very useful. Bonuses to all Disciple units, ability to pump out disciples in return for pop, ability to fund a massive army of disciples...

Granted, it's better for the Scions than most other civs. :p

I also find religions useful for more than the holy city. I still want it (and will go to war for it), but typically I will go for a religion even if it's been founded.


No idea if this is possible (classic get out phrase), but would it be possible to put in place a scheme where if you don't start the religion you can start a strong sect of it instead. With work this sect could eventually become the dominant factor in a religion and in effect sieze control of the "holy city" status (and any special bonuses this may bring). No real idea on the dynamics, but this would prevent one civ from starting every religion possible with no intention of keeping most of them. If they want to keep a holy city of a religion then they have to work on it. It would introduce a whole new dynamic and largely prevent holy-city hogging.

Eventually I'd like to have something like that. Lots of work though, and we have enough mechanics planned for now; It will have to wait.


Expanding on the religious side and producing more religion specific (but not overpowered, possibly just averagely better than normal) UUs would be nice as well. It would mean more to having a religion and would mean that even if a civ doesn't have the holy city of a particular religion they could still get useful UUs out of it. Currently there's usually just one UU per religion and these can tend to be "used" quite quickly.

I love the changes in RiFE where AV and Order can be in the same city, but tend to cause trouble. More effects like this would be nice as well :)

Religions have 2 UU's, not one. As well as the entire priest line.

Mufus
May 24, 2010, 04:50 PM
I find Theocracy in RifE very useful. Bonuses to all Disciple units, ability to pump out disciples in return for pop, ability to fund a massive army of disciples...

What bonuses to all Disciple units (if I'm missing something here, the Civolapaedia really needs to be updated! :D

Ability to pump out disciples in return for pop? (I need to check Theocracy again sometime).

Religions have 2 UU's, not one. As well as the entire priest line.

Yep, I guess they do! Stand (sit) corrected there. Always feels like a lot less though as they're often a long way apart on the tech tree.

isthmus
May 24, 2010, 04:55 PM
What bonuses to all Disciple units (if I'm missing something here, the Civolapaedia really needs to be updated! :D

Ability to pump out disciples in return for pop? (I need to check Theocracy again sometime).
Hasn't been corrected yet, probably.
Under the Theocracy civic, disciples gain the zeolotry promotion which gives them +20% city attack, heal whilst moving, -50% upgrade cost and free XP gain til 25.
Pretty damn good. :)
Disciples also gain a spell that allows them to remove 3 pop from a city and grants 3(?) disciples of that religion.

Valkrionn
May 24, 2010, 04:56 PM
What bonuses to all Disciple units (if I'm missing something here, the Civolapaedia really needs to be updated! :D

Ability to pump out disciples in return for pop? (I need to check Theocracy again sometime).

Yep, I guess they do! Stand (sit) corrected there. Always feels like a lot less though as they're often a long way apart on the tech tree.

It's a change that has been in since... Version 020 of FFPlus, so quite some time ago. Before the name change... Well before, as it's the same version that the Mechanos were merged in.


Theocracy has been significantly reworked, after an idea by Shatner.

+3 :) with the state religion, +1 :mad: per non-state. +10% :gold:, -25% :science:, as well as applying the Zealotry promotion to all Disciple units.
Zealotry: 1 :gold: extra support cost, heal while moving, 50% upgrade discount, 20% city attack, and allows a 1-turn Inquisition and the Incite Fervor ability.
Incite Fervor - 3 turn casting time, requires the state religion in the city. Reduces pop by 3, causes unhappiness like whipping, and spawns three low-level religious units, depending on your religion. Thinking of allowing the Scions to spawn their Legate UU, and the Mechanos to spawn their Adeptus UU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatner http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/blackcfc/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8097588#post8097588)
This would allow theocracy civs to rapidly mobilize an army of disciple units at the cost of their population/happiness AND allow those disciple units to become an effective mob. At the very least, it would be different, interesting and solidly change the role of Theocracy.

Mufus
May 24, 2010, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the info!

PPQ_Purple
May 25, 2010, 09:21 AM
A short question.
Is there any way (event, wonder, spell, what ever) to get settled great people specialists in a city other than settling normal great people (hopefully not).

Wodan
May 25, 2010, 09:49 AM
A short question.
Is there any way (event, wonder, spell, what ever) to get settled great people specialists in a city other than settling normal great people (hopefully not).
Yes. :sheep:

PPQ_Purple
May 25, 2010, 11:22 AM
Darn... guess I will have to work a little harder than.

Is there any way to make a specialist type not appear in the pedia?

Valkrionn
May 25, 2010, 12:17 PM
What exactly do you need a specialist for? Your posts in the FfH Modmodders thread said you needed it for when a unit is in a city... But depending on the effect, you should be able to use a CityBonus tag on the unit. Believe they may only be accessible via promotion, not sure.

<CityBonuses>
<CityBonus>
<bApplyEnemy>0</bApplyEnemy>
<bApplyRival>1</bApplyRival>
<bApplySelf>1</bApplySelf>
<bApplyTeam>0</bApplyTeam>
<bFullMap>0</bFullMap>
<fCulture>0</fCulture>
<fDefense>0</fDefense>
<fDiplo>0</fDiplo>
<fFood>0</fFood>
<fFreeXP>0</fFreeXP>
<fGold>0</fGold>
<fGPP>0</fGPP>
<fHappy>0</fHappy>
<fHealth>0</fHealth>
<fInfectCulture>0</fInfectCulture>
<fPotency>0</fPotency>
<fProduction>0</fProduction>
<fRitualAssist>50</fRitualAssist>
<fShielding>0</fShielding>
<fTradeRoutes>0</fTradeRoutes>
<fTrainXPCap>20</fTrainXPCap>
<fTrainXPRate>40</fTrainXPRate>
<iBonusRange>0</iBonusRange>
<fDecayRate>0</fDecayRate>
</CityBonus>
</CityBonuses>

PPQ_Purple
May 25, 2010, 01:54 PM
To explain what I am trying to do.

I shall remove the Great People's ability to settle in cities. Instead of this, when ever a Great Person is present in a city a corresponding Great Specialist will be added to the city. Once the Great Person leaves the specialist is removed.

That way, you can have mobile groups of great specialists working what ever city you want.

Also, I plan to make great people capturable.



However, my problem is that I can think of no way of doing this other than adjusting the number of Super Specialists to match the number of Great People present in the city at the end of each turn.
So I thought of an idea for having proxy Super Specialists. (Identical to their mirror images but with a different ID) that I can work with my function.

But I don't want them showing up in the pedia.


Do you think I should instead just modify the great people to give corresponding effects? Can this be done?

Valkrionn
May 25, 2010, 02:12 PM
To explain what I am trying to do.

I shall remove the Great People's ability to settle in cities. Instead of this, when ever a Great Person is present in a city a corresponding Great Specialist will be added to the city. Once the Great Person leaves the specialist is removed.

That way, you can have mobile groups of great specialists working what ever city you want.

Also, I plan to make great people capturable.



However, my problem is that I can think of no way of doing this other than adjusting the number of Super Specialists to match the number of Great People present in the city at the end of each turn.
So I thought of an idea for having proxy Super Specialists. (Identical to their mirror images but with a different ID) that I can work with my function.

But I don't want them showing up in the pedia.


Do you think I should instead just modify the great people to give corresponding effects? Can this be done?

The best way to do it would be to give each GP a CityBonus promotion with corresponding effects to the GP, and a range of 0 so it only applies if in the city.

I'd post an example, but I'm going out to get food now.

PPQ_Purple
May 25, 2010, 02:16 PM
Ok, will do that ASAP and make a running version.

Do you think anyone would be interested in it?


PS. Since my RiFE is not up to date because I am running some games, if anyone could upload me the newest versions of the CIV4UnitInfos.xml and CIV4PromotionInfos.xml so that I do not need to download the whole lot I would be grateful.

Jheral
May 25, 2010, 03:17 PM
Well, personally, I would prefer to settle my GPs. Leaves less units running around on the map, and therefore less targets for the enemy and less chance of hitting the wrong button by mistake, and losing one of them. Not very likely to happen, true, but I still think it cleans up the interface a bit not to have them standing around in the cities.

Also, one should consider that the GPs can get fairly powerful in the long run, and having to settle them in one location rather then being able to move them around at need is a good balance for that, I think.

I've attached what I think is the latest (public, anyway) UnitInfos and PromotionInfos files (they're the latest ones I've got, in any case).

PPQ_Purple
May 25, 2010, 03:26 PM
Thank you.
I will download them now and start cracking on it :).

I am making this to solve a personal gripe. Since I am forever indecisive I end up with a bunch of GP that I can not decide what to do with. This way, they will still have some use while waiting around. And the trade of is as you said that they are vulnerable to barbarians and assassins. (I will make them capable as well so HN units will be your worst nightmare. (In theory)


Also, is there a XML tag among those things Valkirion posted for Science points? I can't find it.

Valkrionn
May 25, 2010, 03:48 PM
Doesn't look like there's a tag for it; I'll work on adding it.

The way *I* would do this would be to make the GP grant half of the benefits of the settled specialist; This way you can choose between the full benefit, but immobility, or half benefit but the ability to move it to the location it's needed at.

Swinkscalibur
May 25, 2010, 03:49 PM
if not, it should be added.

PPQ_Purple
May 25, 2010, 04:07 PM
If you can add it I would be eternally grateful.

Also, there will be several drawbacks. 1. HN units can kill or steel them, 2. The GP is no longer effected by civics, wonders and other things that effect specialists.

So if you want all those extra bonuses you have to settle them.

Evalis
May 28, 2010, 03:56 PM
This is a really long standing problem.. and I'm not sure how to address it, but I'm pretty sure there is an AI tag that relates to it.. but the computer will peaceably vassalize with each other, but never to another player, even if you have an army capable of completely obliterating them. However.. in one multiplayer game I played, I had a computer =ask= me to vassalize them.

I assume this has something to do with the tag of 'if only 1 human - do everything you can to oppose that human' .. only not in so many words. If this tag can be found, could it be added as a custom option "AI doesn't hate player", or something?

Elwist
May 28, 2010, 05:28 PM
I've had computers ask me to take them as vassals in games where i've never been at war with them, there are just a number of things that have to match up for them to do so. Typically they have to be nearby, considerably stronger than you, not dislike you and not be afraid of your enemies so it doesn't happen too often.

Evalis
May 28, 2010, 07:25 PM
Wait.. they have to be stronger than you to be your vassal? Weerraah? About the 'nearby' tag.. do your cities have to be nearby, or does your stack of doom just need to be nearby? There's also a tag 'you've grown too powerful for us' which just seems.. ludicrous. I mean seriously, are you asking for a beating? Seems like they would be much better off becoming your vassal and going for an altar victory and just like leave your vassalage when they are a few turns away from doing it. Because if they capitulate it's all over for them.

The funny thing is I'm absolutely certain it was this 'too powerful for us' reason that caused the vassal in mutiplay to ask to be my vassal - they wanted protection from another player - they were actually across the sea too, which is unusual. I suspect there are different tags or something in multiplay.. maybe I should just go find them and fiddle around myself >.>

Valkrionn
May 29, 2010, 12:17 AM
He meant YOU have to be stronger than THEM. :p

PPQ_Purple
May 29, 2010, 05:52 AM
I can't wait for the next version.
Than my life will be complete since my specialists will be able to move.

BTW. If you have any spare time that you don't know what to do with and if you just happen to find the code in the wild mana DLL that allows for python to change the resource yields of buildings... (but nation wide like the palace, not corporation style)...

I tried finding it but with no luck.

Evalis
May 29, 2010, 09:23 AM
Just some general feedback about the way minions grant xp. I'm thinking that the base transfer of experience should be 20-25% rather than 10%. Primarily because the ammount of xp gained from summons is kinda sad, and in addition, even a single unit with regimented serves to double the xp of a general (and I don't think it should be 'quite' that powerful)

Valkrionn
May 29, 2010, 10:15 AM
I can't wait for the next version.
Than my life will be complete since my specialists will be able to move.

BTW. If you have any spare time that you don't know what to do with and if you just happen to find the code in the wild mana DLL that allows for python to change the resource yields of buildings... (but nation wide like the palace, not corporation style)...

I tried finding it but with no luck.

I'll look into it.

Just some general feedback about the way minions grant xp. I'm thinking that the base transfer of experience should be 20-25% rather than 10%. Primarily because the ammount of xp gained from summons is kinda sad, and in addition, even a single unit with regimented serves to double the xp of a general (and I don't think it should be 'quite' that powerful)

I'll think about it. ;)

mo123567
May 29, 2010, 07:02 PM
Random idea: A unique unit that enters the game as a barbarian unit with a strength of 1. If someone kills the unit, it is reborn in one of their cities with a strength of 2. Everytime the unit is killed it is reborn in the the empire that kills it, each time getting more powerful, maybe having some limit where it reaches maximum strength.

That's the idea. I just thought it might be fun. You could sacrifice the unit when fighting an enemy in order to kill it again and make it more powerful but the more powerful it gets, the harder it will be to get it back if you lose it.

xeno_cws
May 31, 2010, 04:41 PM
I was wondering if Rife uses the CAR Mod like wildmana? Seems like it would be a good idea what with the wait times getting long mid-late game.

Evalis
Jun 01, 2010, 01:15 PM
Should Rites of Ogma really be usable more than once? I'm starting to think that it shouldn't be. I just played a game as the D'Tesh where had 4 Sun, 4 Law, 4 Fire, 4 Water, 4 Shadow, 3 Entropy, 4 Chaos, 4 Metamagic, 3 Dimension, and 3 Death Nodes. So about 37 Nodes in total, with about 12-15 still in enemy territory. I did this before as the amurites as well. I was under the impression this was supposed to be a world ritual (only one allowed). If it isn't, it should probably be changed to be to prevent the world from becoming completely filled with mana nodes.

Just my thoughts on this.. Yes I'm aware it costs 2500(1250 with metamagic) production, but it's not all that hard to have a city with 125 production (so every 10 turns). The D'esh were doing it in 5..

Blacklanner
Jun 01, 2010, 05:08 PM
Just gave RIFE another try, redownloaded yesterday to make sure I had the latest version.

I love what you've done with the UI. Units intelligently kept focus when they had spells or abilities left I might want to use but no movement. That has long been an annoyance of ffh, which the latest version of RIFE seems to handle perfectly. Also really enjoying the leader choices in RIFE and some of the quirky traits. I like the more dangerous feel of the wilderness in RIFE too, but the animals are just too much.

In my game, 4 ai were eventually wiped out by animals, and I think they're likely to finish off the launen soon, leaving just me and the donevello. Because the animals as so insanely strong, the relative value of the feral trait is incredibly high. I played as arachos, and spider swarms are still entirely too much. I haven't done anything with mine besides eat a few animals, but they're unstoppable killing machines with like 12 str +3 base first strikes or something, when nonoe has better than axes for regular units. For balance reasons they need a tech requirement to auto upgrade, Feral Bond at the earliest, maybe one tech higher. Also it seems like spiders promoted with subdue animal don't capture defeated animals. It would be nice as well if spider swarms could still get the unique spider type promotions, and be devoured as a mate for mother.

Also in balance problems, dwarven mines are just too good, as are fort commanders in general and the dwarves in particular. They give incredible economic advantage, are nearly immune to pillaging, and defend your territory from the insane animals if you aren't feral.

I expect if you did a occ, made sure you had no feral opponents, then simply sat in your capital and built defenses you could get better than a 50% win rate by conquest. (epic speed immortal diff) Unless of course you were wiped out by animals doing nothing but beelineing military techs while building defenses/units

inuyashasama
Jun 01, 2010, 07:17 PM
I love what you've done with the UI. Units intelligently kept focus when they had spells or abilities left I might want to use but no movement. That has long been an annoyance of ffh, which the latest version of RIFE seems to handle perfectly.
O.o it doesn't do that for me!!!

Cyrusfan
Jun 02, 2010, 12:14 PM
Me, neither.

I don't remember if I suggested it at the time, but when we were using 1.22, there was a thread for toning down the animals and barbarian spawns. One of the things I did following the discussion, was give the legendary lairs the ability to spawn skeletons when they were in their explorable form. It's not a big change (cut and paste a line of XML 3 or 4 times), but I found it really helps to serve as a reminder that they are available for exploration again (as they don't look any different, you otherwise have to remember to mouse over them).

CarnivalBizarre
Jun 02, 2010, 02:30 PM
Random idea: A unique unit that enters the game as a barbarian unit with a strength of 1. If someone kills the unit, it is reborn in one of their cities with a strength of 2. Everytime the unit is killed it is reborn in the the empire that kills it, each time getting more powerful, maybe having some limit where it reaches maximum strength.

That's the idea. I just thought it might be fun. You could sacrifice the unit when fighting an enemy in order to kill it again and make it more powerful but the more powerful it gets, the harder it will be to get it back if you lose it.

I like this idea. It would spice up the game and it would be of use for the AI as well :goodjob:

xeno_cws
Jun 02, 2010, 09:29 PM
Random idea: A unique unit that enters the game as a barbarian unit with a strength of 1. If someone kills the unit, it is reborn in one of their cities with a strength of 2. Everytime the unit is killed it is reborn in the the empire that kills it, each time getting more powerful, maybe having some limit where it reaches maximum strength.

That's the idea. I just thought it might be fun. You could sacrifice the unit when fighting an enemy in order to kill it again and make it more powerful but the more powerful it gets, the harder it will be to get it back if you lose it.


I like this idea as well, an interesting new feature with a unit cap strength of 10 perhaps. Maybe a phoenix?

Valkrionn
Jun 02, 2010, 09:35 PM
It would have to be done as a modmod; Not particularly interested in it personally. Not difficult to do at all, though.

mo123567
Jun 03, 2010, 10:39 AM
I was thinking of it being a potentially really powerful one of a kind unit. However, it would probably be rare for it to reach it's full potential because it will eventually be really hard to kill, (which is part of the fun to see how powerful it can become). It should have a limit (I personally would like it to be around the 30 range) but it should balance itself out. For it to reach 30 strength, someone would have to have killed it when it was at 29 strength. I only had the mechanic in mind but with Xeno's idea for it to be a phoenix it really sounds like a small but fun addition to the game.

Too bad Valkrionn isn't interested. I can't imagine it making a big impact on the game, just one more fun unit to play around with. If it's really not difficult I hope someone adds it in but as an add-on, it's probably not worth it.

Valkrionn
Jun 03, 2010, 10:56 AM
Meh. I just see it as a toy, with no real use. Not interested in spending the time on it.

Now, if someone made phoenix art, I'd do it. :p

shoggi
Jun 03, 2010, 11:25 AM
I think there is a phoenix art in kohan 2, but deliverator hasn't converted it yet. would be nice to have anyway.

But maybe I try to make this modmod anyway, just not as a phoenix.
I like the sound of it and it doesn't seem to be too hard.
At least it can be an exercise in python for me.

Opera
Jun 03, 2010, 11:50 AM
Could make it an immortal hero who would be a savage at first and then reborn to the civ that defeats her/him.
(I'd rather have her/him a recruitable mercenary at first, when and if we ever add mercenaries; so that you would recruit her/him and lose her/him into a war only to see her/him just switched sides)

An alternative would be to have a handful of such units (as mercenaries would still be the best) that could only be definitely killed by one another ;)

Gladi
Jun 03, 2010, 01:57 PM
I have tried a Hotseat game as Clan of Embers and at least a third of normal lairs were returning dread hamsters to me. So RNG hate me, but... A strength 4 unit, passes plagued, breeds exponentially and it is not yet turn 80, coming from normal lairs? That is not just RNG hating me, that is developers hating me. And after I released 30+ dread hamsters to wild, also hating everybody on the map with land connection to the Swarm.

Elwist
Jun 03, 2010, 03:33 PM
I have no idea what if any plans you have for the magic system and in general I like it but I have heard comments about changing it enough that I thought i'd throw in my 2 cents and see if anyone liked the idea.

The main change in the way i was imagining it was moving from a 1 mana system for spells two a 2 mana system. I know this is possible because that is effectively how it works with the mastery spells. This means that you would have a spell associated with each possible pair of mana, i recognize rather than with each alone. Ie. fire or body alone at level 1 wouldn't give you anything but fire and body together might give you haste or some other ability while fire and air might give you blaze.

there are a couple advantages to this, the main one being that the mana you started with as a race would matter more because having fire, body and meta magic would be very different than fire, nature and death magic. It would also make the choices for leveling up your mages more interesting and open up some possibilities for variety of spells.

I recognize that this is a major change and there are some problems with it but i thought it might be interesting to someone.

Valkrionn
Jun 03, 2010, 03:37 PM
I have no idea what if any plans you have for the magic system and in general I like it but I have heard comments about changing it enough that I thought i'd throw in my 2 cents and see if anyone liked the idea.

The main change in the way i was imagining it was moving from a 1 mana system for spells two a 2 mana system. I know this is possible because that is effectively how it works with the mastery spells. This means that you would have a spell associated with each possible pair of mana, i recognize rather than with each alone. Ie. fire or body alone at level 1 wouldn't give you anything but fire and body together might give you haste or some other ability while fire and air might give you blaze.

there are a couple advantages to this, the main one being that the mana you started with as a race would matter more because having fire, body and meta magic would be very different than fire, nature and death magic. It would also make the choices for leveling up your mages more interesting and open up some possibilities for variety of spells.

I recognize that this is a major change and there are some problems with it but i thought it might be interesting to someone.

It IS interesting, and cross-sphere spells have been discussed alot.

The problem is the sheer number of new spells required. If you or someone else can supply workable ideas for nearly a hundred spells, be my guest. :lol:

Will be easier to come up with soon, though.

Evalis
Jun 04, 2010, 01:59 AM
Werr.. what is going to make new spells easier to come up with?

Valkrionn
Jun 04, 2010, 07:29 AM
:mischief:

That will be seen soon. A certain new capability opening up ENTIRELY new spells.

Swinkscalibur
Jun 04, 2010, 06:58 PM
Was that capability mentioned with respect to the Sidar changes?

Valkrionn
Jun 04, 2010, 07:06 PM
Hmm... I'm not sure it was mentioned, but it is intended, yes. :mischief:

We're also discussing some (tentative) plans that may (not fully agreed yet, trying to convince them :p) be in 1.4.

jrc
Jun 07, 2010, 08:41 AM
Just wanted to check if some kind of nerf is planned for Loki. At the moment he has to be the most unbalanced unit in the history of Civ (never played Bals on regular FF, so not sure if he did the convert city thing there too). No offense to all you modders, but he is not ok from a gameplay point of view.

I can live with the occasional opponent Loki converting my cites... but not very happily. However, when you play Bals yourself, either you will get such a monster headstart it's not fun to complete the game, or your civ's unique unit will be two Inspiration buildings in your empire (him + puppet). Keep in mind you struggle like hell to bring out your first and second settler to found a city, keeping them safe from barbs and animals... to see them reduced to rubble without effort (well, 90 hammers) after that kinda kills a lot of the spirit. At least mine.


The idea of that unit is pretty fun, but should really be given a thought about balancing. From the top of my head, here are a couple of suggestions that would not cause me to steamroll my opponents if I chose to play actively with him (and allow me some kind of counter if the AI decides to use him well):
- Reduce movement to 1 (slower travel times between cities)
- Reduce the culture that is removed (if not 0) to 3 (i.e. slightly more than a monument gives per turn).
- Make the convert city spell take 3, 5 or perhaps even 10 turns to cast (it'd still be insanely powerful).
- Force Balseraphs to take control of the city, don't allow razing (then it'd come with a price).
- Make Loki attackable by something (magic, physical, a certain unit, a certain spell, etc), but let him have the immortal promotion so he'll resurrect in your capitol.
- Add some kind of tech requirement (been rejected before, i know... but still) to build
- Add some kind of tech (or unit age) requirement for the spells (so he can't do the convert immediately, but will have to settle with the other spells for a while... after all, he's not levelling up normally, so would be fun if the options increased over time).

Valkrionn
Jun 07, 2010, 08:55 AM
Just wanted to check if some kind of nerf is planned for Loki. At the moment he has to be the most unbalanced unit in the history of Civ (never played Bals on regular FF, so not sure if he did the convert city thing there too). No offense to all you modders, but he is not ok from a gameplay point of view.

I can live with the occasional opponent Loki converting my cites... but not very happily. However, when you play Bals yourself, either you will get such a monster headstart it's not fun to complete the game, or your civ's unique unit will be two Inspiration buildings in your empire (him + puppet). Keep in mind you struggle like hell to bring out your first and second settler to found a city, keeping them safe from barbs and animals... to see them reduced to rubble without effort (well, 90 hammers) after that kinda kills a lot of the spirit. At least mine.

No nerf is planned; He functions the same way in all FfH modmods.


The idea of that unit is pretty fun, but should really be given a thought about balancing. From the top of my head, here are a couple of suggestions that would not cause me to steamroll my opponents if I chose to play actively with him (and allow me some kind of counter if the AI decides to use him well):
- Reduce movement to 1 (slower travel times between cities)
- Reduce the culture that is removed (if not 0) to 3 (i.e. slightly more than a monument gives per turn).
- Make the convert city spell take 3, 5 or perhaps even 10 turns to cast (it'd still be insanely powerful).
- Force Balseraphs to take control of the city, don't allow razing (then it'd come with a price).
- Make Loki attackable by something (magic, physical, a certain unit, a certain spell, etc), but let him have the immortal promotion so he'll resurrect in your capitol.
- Add some kind of tech requirement (been rejected before, i know... but still) to build
- Add some kind of tech (or unit age) requirement for the spells (so he can't do the convert immediately, but will have to settle with the other spells for a while... after all, he's not levelling up normally, so would be fun if the options increased over time).



This one I could see.
It's already a rand from 0 to 2.
Will think about that, but honestly most of his use is to :):):):) with people.
Nope, he's only useful really early on.
Again, only useful early on.

Ilyes
Jun 07, 2010, 11:07 AM
Maybe this should go into the bug thread, but the Frozen's world spell (aside from the sheer power of the WIntered promotion) converts all of the world's non-terraformed terrain into ice, most (60%) of coast tiles into ice, and spawns those strange blizzard couds over ice terrain, practically everywhere. It slows my game to a crawl, maybe because of the graphic requirements, and makes most of Civilizations basically impossible to play.

Is it supposed to work this way?

mo123567
Jun 07, 2010, 12:14 PM
I nerfed Loki in my game. I delete him every time he is built. I just don't find an invincable unit that can screw up your empire very fun. At least, if there is some way to kill him, I don't know it.

Alsark
Jun 07, 2010, 07:43 PM
I nerfed Loki in my game. I delete him every time he is built. I just don't find an invincable unit that can screw up your empire very fun. At least, if there is some way to kill him, I don't know it.

I *think* I heard from regular FFH that you're able to completely surround him on all sides and then attack him. Granted, that's not terribly practicle, but if you're at war with them and he's within your empire then it would be a bit more manageable. You can give that a shot - I've never tried but, and I don't remember where I heard it, but hopefully that'll work.

Alsark
Jun 07, 2010, 08:07 PM
Also, idea: can we unhide the Civilization traits from the Civilopedia? That or put the description of the civilization trait in the civilization's profile (some civilizations do this, others don't). The only way to access the civilization traits is when you start up a game. I'm new to RiFE (as is my brother), and when we look at a leader and it says, "Civilization trait: Sundered" (as an example) and we can find *no* reference as to what sundered does, it's a bit confusing. The same goes for some of the spells. "The Breach", for example, I had absolutely no idea what it was going to do until I was actually able to cast it - and even when I did cast it my brother, who I was playing online with, had no way of knowing what it did. I think I noticed a couple of non-world spells that were like this, too.

Another thing to make browsing the civilopedia easier for new people would be describing what some of the spells do in their entireity within the spell itself. When I'm looking up what mana I want to build it can be a pretty tedious process. First I have to bring up the Promotions, then I find, for example, Chaos I. So it says it allows Dance of Blades. I click Dance of Blades. That says it adds Dance of Blades to all units in the stack. So then I have to click Dance of Blades again - so that's four clicks to essentially find out what Chaos I does. So if you're a long-term thinker, like myself, and want to know what's ahead, you have 12 clicks just to find out what the purpose of the Chaos tree is. When you're comparing your options, multiply that by 15. It makes it extremely daunting for a new player.

If it would make things easier on you guys I could volunteer to edit the .xml files to include these changes (albeit it would take awhile, since I'm fairly busy). Of course, it wouldn't do much good if I'm working on an old file unless there's a good way to merge the code I'd add with the test build's code.

Valkrionn
Jun 07, 2010, 08:20 PM
Also, idea: can we unhide the Civilization traits from the Civilopedia? That or put the description of the civilization trait in the civilization's profile (some civilizations do this, others don't). The only way to access the civilization traits is when you start up a game. I'm new to RiFE (as is my brother), and when we look at a leader and it says, "Civilization trait: Sundered" (as an example) and we can find *no* reference as to what sundered does, it's a bit confusing. The same goes for some of the spells. "The Breach", for example, I had absolutely no idea what it was going to do until I was actually able to cast it - and even when I did cast it my brother, who I was playing online with, had no way of knowing what it did. I think I noticed a couple of non-world spells that were like this, too.

Another thing to make browsing the civilopedia easier for new people would be describing what some of the spells do in their entireity within the spell itself. When I'm looking up what mana I want to build it can be a pretty tedious process. First I have to bring up the Promotions, then I find, for example, Chaos I. So it says it allows Dance of Blades. I click Dance of Blades. That says it adds Dance of Blades to all units in the stack. So then I have to click Dance of Blades again - so that's four clicks to essentially find out what Chaos I does. So if you're a long-term thinker, like myself, and want to know what's ahead, you have 12 clicks just to find out what the purpose of the Chaos tree is. When you're comparing your options, multiply that by 15. It makes it extremely daunting for a new player.

If it would make things easier on you guys I could volunteer to edit the .xml files to include these changes (albeit it would take awhile, since I'm fairly busy). Of course, it wouldn't do much good if I'm working on an old file unless there's a good way to merge the code I'd add with the test build's code.

Civilization Traits can be seen by hovering over the civ's name in the pedia (as well as a lot of other info, like civ-specific yields; Just doesn't all fit in the page, working on that). You can also see each individual trait by going to to the trait tab in the pedia; Unlike FfH, every trait can be viewed from inside the pedia, with full effects listed.

The Breach has a pyhelp text, telling you exactly what you get in game. The pedia description is lacking, though.

As for better documentation... We have a wiki in process which will be a massive help. Most pages are in, and once we take it live anyone will be able to contribute help/strategy text.

Alsark
Jun 07, 2010, 08:42 PM
Civilization Traits can be seen by hovering over the civ's name in the pedia (as well as a lot of other info, like civ-specific yields; Just doesn't all fit in the page, working on that). You can also see each individual trait by going to to the trait tab in the pedia; Unlike FfH, every trait can be viewed from inside the pedia, with full effects listed.

The Breach has a pyhelp text, telling you exactly what you get in game. The pedia description is lacking, though.

As for better documentation... We have a wiki in process which will be a massive help. Most pages are in, and once we take it live anyone will be able to contribute help/strategy text.

1) Oh, sorry, I must have overlooked those in the trait tab - thanks!

2) Yeah, like I knew what it would do before I cast it, but until I got to the point I was able to I had no idea.

3) Cool - that'll be great :).

jrc
Jun 08, 2010, 03:08 AM
I *think* I heard from regular FFH that you're able to completely surround him on all sides and then attack him. Granted, that's not terribly practicle, but if you're at war with them and he's within your empire then it would be a bit more manageable. You can give that a shot - I've never tried but, and I don't remember where I heard it, but hopefully that'll work.
Original FFH you could kill him in cities (by hidden nationality units, or in a Balseraph city - i.e. he won't flee in a city), or if surrounded. If you had enough units you could attack him multiple times each turn and make him flee until he's cornered and could flee no more. He is completely immune now, afaik.

Ah well, I'll leave the subject of Loki now.

mo123567
Jun 08, 2010, 11:47 AM
Not only do I find Loki completely annoying and not a fun addition to the game, I think he actually sabotaged the Balsaraphs in my last game. They took over a bunch of random cities all over the place (before he showed up on my border and I deleted him!) and I think it stifled their economy. They developed very slowly.

As far as surrounding him, I don't think it works unless it's different in RiFE. I've even seen him jump accross bodies of water.

Oh well, I didn't like going into the world builder at first but now I rather enjoy deleting Loki when he arrives. I guess he's fun again. It should just say that in the civlopedia "Loki has a weakness to being deleted in the world builder"

admtanaka
Jun 08, 2010, 06:19 PM
I WB him out if an agnostic civ is in the game. Between the "instantly legendary" culture bug and agnostic civs' inability to generate early culture, Loki just isn't balanced. I hate to remove a civ's hero, but the other AIs just can't compete with it.

Incidentally, in the hands of a player, Loki just feels like cheating.

Meldon
Jun 09, 2010, 05:24 AM
I don't know if it works in RifE, but in Orbis I once killed Loki by catching him in a mountain pass and having a small stack block off each end.

stupidnewbie
Jun 10, 2010, 06:28 PM
So I've noticed lately that in most of my games, 5-6 civs die off in the first 10 turns to the same thing. A giant steading somewhere spawns a hill giant, who then walks over to the nearest civ and stomps their guts out. Is this one of the things that's going to be changed in 1.3?

Valkrionn
Jun 10, 2010, 06:44 PM
So I've noticed lately that in most of my games, 5-6 civs die off in the first 10 turns to the same thing. A giant steading somewhere spawns a hill giant, who then walks over to the nearest civ and stomps their guts out. Is this one of the things that's going to be changed in 1.3?

For the 9000th time, yes. :p

There will be a new barb system next version, and Opera recently added a routine that clears hostiles from your starting area.

stupidnewbie
Jun 10, 2010, 06:55 PM
Oh! I knew about the animal civ thing, but didn't know if it was also going to affect the barb civ. Thanks for the 9000th reply!

Valkrionn
Jun 10, 2010, 07:21 PM
Oh! I knew about the animal civ thing, but didn't know if it was also going to affect the barb civ. Thanks for the 9000th reply!

Picked 9000 just to be an ass and use the meme, btw. :p

But yes, it applies to animals and barbs both. Demons, not so much, but they already work differently.

Alsark
Jun 10, 2010, 09:30 PM
Well if you were trying to use the meme, shouldn't that have been the 9001st time?

Valkrionn
Jun 10, 2010, 09:31 PM
Well if you were trying to use the meme, shouldn't that have been the 9001st time?

Technically, it should have been "over 9000 times". :mischief:

Randomness
Jun 10, 2010, 10:51 PM
Will be better after 1.3 haha. Ranged OOS fixed, for one, thanks to Snarko. And some awesome new features, including (unannounced as yet, so I'm wondering when it gets back to the RifE forums) a fully integrated Influence Driven War mechanic. Not optional, as you can receive boosts to it via trait/promotion/building; For now, Defender, Conqueror, and Raiders all have a boost of some kind or another.

Not very long :p...

Valkrionn
Jun 10, 2010, 10:59 PM
Not very long :p...

Heh. Was a few hours.

To explain the trait boosts:



Defender

Gains Fixed Borders. Basically means that combat does not influence culture within your borders; No losing culture, but also no GAINING it within freshly conquered territory. It's a nice boost, but not too strong IMO.

Conqueror

Doubles the effect for both gain and loss. You'll see a much more pronounced effect as a result; Will take territory quicker, but will lose it faster.

Raiders

1.5 times the Pillage effect (functions with auto-pillage as well); Nice little effect, and plays perfectly with auto-pillage.

PPQ_Purple
Jun 11, 2010, 05:41 AM
I can't wait for this next version to come out.

Opera
Jun 11, 2010, 06:09 AM
Might change Defender's name to something more evocating of a kinda unified culture and more patriotic people (having bonus inside their own borders). Patriotic would work but I don't like it :p

Opera
Jun 11, 2010, 06:24 AM
With some more thoughts, Patriotic or Vigilant are the best I can come up with.

Iceciro
Jun 11, 2010, 09:15 AM
Nationalist might work.

Valkrionn
Jun 11, 2010, 10:30 AM
Either Vigilant or Nationalist are fine with me; Both sound good.

Meldon
Jun 11, 2010, 02:01 PM
I think Nationalist fits the concept better.

sinner003
Jun 11, 2010, 10:29 PM
i thought that conqueror was an evil version of tolerant?
where theres no civ flip when a city is acquired or conquered?

Valkrionn
Jun 11, 2010, 10:40 PM
i thought that conqueror was an evil version of tolerant?
where theres no civ flip when a city is acquired or conquered?

It's not evil, per se, but yes, it's currently the same thing as Tolerant. Just a different name, which carries a very differently flavor.

Conqueror is getting a boost that actually allows for better conquering, and Tolerant will get something else, more passive in nature.

Torugu
Jun 12, 2010, 12:34 PM
Would you consider splitting the Wild Mana option into two different options, one that increases the amount of mona nodes in the game and one that converts them into the different types of mana?

I would love to play with mana guardians but I don't like having so many nodes in my games (I like to think of mana as something rare and valuable, the kind of resource nations may go to war for.)

Sorry if that's been addressed already.

admtanaka
Jun 12, 2010, 05:01 PM
Are there still plans to include Orbis's music patch in the next version of Rife?

If so, it might be worthwhile to look at some of the diplomacy music posted here:

http://www.box.net/shared/jdp9qyp8o4

Most of these seem to be improvements to the existing diplo music. I'm not sure about others, but I'm willing to download a larger and separate music patch if it is of high quality.

Valkrionn
Jun 12, 2010, 05:14 PM
Are there still plans to include Orbis's music patch in the next version of Rife?

If so, it might be worthwhile to look at some of the diplomacy music posted here:

http://www.box.net/shared/jdp9qyp8o4

Most of these seem to be improvements to the existing diplo music. I'm not sure about others, but I'm willing to download a larger and separate music patch if it is of high quality.

Planning it, yes.

stupidnewbie
Jun 12, 2010, 07:57 PM
Getting back to rites of oghma, would it be possible to make it usable once every 50 or 100 turns instead of removing it completely? I don't think that's imbalanced, considering the nodes pop up at random and you'll be lucky if you get two of them within your cultural borders.

Valkrionn
Jun 12, 2010, 08:27 PM
Getting back to rites of oghma, would it be possible to make it usable once every 50 or 100 turns instead of removing it completely? I don't think that's imbalanced, considering the nodes pop up at random and you'll be lucky if you get two of them within your cultural borders.

That is my intent. :p

Without saying too much: There will be lots of stuff changing with regards to rituals. Will be my project for 1.4.

PPQ_Purple
Jun 13, 2010, 10:11 AM
So, when will this come?
We are all sort of eager to get our hands on it.

Also, is the hamster civ compatible with RiFE?

Also, is there some way to make it so that AI civs can't be wiped out by barbarians? Maybe make them unable to attack a civs capital or something. Its really horrible when I lose 3-4 civs before I ever meet them.

mo123567
Jun 13, 2010, 11:43 AM
I always play with every civ represented in the game so I don't mind if a civ or two get wiped out early which is what usually happens. I just don't want it to always be the same civs. It seems like the Jotnar and Malakim are always having issues in my games.

Valkrionn
Jun 13, 2010, 11:48 AM
So, when will this come?
We are all sort of eager to get our hands on it.

Also, is the hamster civ compatible with RiFE?

Also, is there some way to make it so that AI civs can't be wiped out by barbarians? Maybe make them unable to attack a civs capital or something. Its really horrible when I lose 3-4 civs before I ever meet them.

1.4? Sometime after 1.3. :p

If you meant 1.3.... Hopefully sometime soon. Next week or two.

The Hamstalfar may be compatible, but you'd have to swap out schemas. Not hard.

Our new barb system should keep AI civs from being wiped out, without a limit of that kind.

Cyrusfan
Jun 13, 2010, 03:20 PM
If you meant 1.3.... Hopefully sometime soon. Next week or two.


Woo Hoo!

Well...someone has to say it.

Alsark
Jun 13, 2010, 04:17 PM
Excellent! Excellent! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pWh3pbmuM) I am leaving for Florida in mid-July, so I was really hoping that 1.3 was going to be out by then (Civ 4 is all I'll have to play for a week and a half, basically). If it hadn't been out by then I would have conveniently been in Florida to have paid Valkrionn a visit...

Valkrionn
Jun 13, 2010, 04:44 PM
Excellent! Excellent! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pWh3pbmuM) I am leaving for Florida in mid-July, so I was really hoping that 1.3 was going to be out by then (Civ 4 is all I'll have to play for a week and a half, basically). If it hadn't been out by then I would have conveniently been in Florida to have paid Valkrionn a visit...

Hah, where in Florida will you be going? I live in a small town, should be fairly safe. ;)

Alsark
Jun 13, 2010, 05:16 PM
Hah, where in Florida will you be going? I live in a small town, should be fairly safe. ;)

Naples. So, alas, almost the complete opposite side of Florida. Although that isn't to say I can't pay a visit on my way there or back ;)

Cyrusfan
Jun 16, 2010, 03:23 PM
Regarding the potential for extra items in the options menu (which I think was in this thread, but may not have been), how about some more specific restrictions on workers.
I would generally like "Always build mines on hills" and "Always replace improvements to access resources"
The Fallow civs could probably use "Build quarries whenever possible"
Bannor and Kuriotates players might use "Build cottages whenever possible"
etc.

inuyashasama
Jun 16, 2010, 04:19 PM
I'll be happy if they quit building quarries on my bananas.

mo123567
Jun 16, 2010, 06:09 PM
Regarding the potential for extra items in the options menu (which I think was in this thread, but may not have been), how about some more specific restrictions on workers.
I would generally like "Always build mines on hills" and "Always replace improvements to access resources"
The Fallow civs could probably use "Build quarries whenever possible"
Bannor and Kuriotates players might use "Build cottages whenever possible"
etc.

Also, how about the option to stop automated workers from leaving your territory. I keep running into situations where they get killed in the wilderness while trying to connect a distant fort or something.

I'd also like them to stay automated even when they use a gate. Every turn in my late game consists of me re-automating a whole bunch of workers.

Gladi
Jun 17, 2010, 11:04 PM
I have just started a game as Bannor- specifically the Instructor leader and I get free promotion on upgrading units. Is that working as intended?

Jheral
Jun 18, 2010, 12:11 AM
Well, that's kind of what the Instructor trait does, so... :p

Gladi
Jun 18, 2010, 12:24 AM
Well, that's kind of what the Instructor trait does, so... :p

Well the info says that you get the promotion on building the unit. For example, you can get an event which improves all your archers to Combat I. But only those you build, not those you upgrae from warriors- at least I have not seen that.

Whereas in the Bannor game I build a warrior, while running apprentices. So he gets combat I and corporal, then I upgrade him for 65 to axeman and I get another free promotion. I raise him to Combat II. I will be upgrading those to champions and those to Paladins or Phalangi. Two more free promotions.

Or better- take arcane units. You HAVE to promote arcane units so you are looking at three free promotions at the top. (Or will liches count as an upgrade? That is four then!). Plus disciple line of Acolyte->Paladin is going to be open for an entire game. So for a few hundred gold you get to have a Paladin with three promotions, who is at level 1 and as such can and will grow quickly.

Man, if Tomb of Hero works like this, Donal Lugh is going to have an extremely short life.

Feckinotter
Jun 18, 2010, 05:21 PM
I've just been playing a game as the Elohim and managed to collect a very large amount of bonuses visting all the unique features I could early on in the game. This made things somewhat easier than I expected it to be.

As their lore is based on them being the guardians of these features I was wondering if it would be possible to have the bonuses linked to actually protecting them, by say having a military unit actually on the feature itself. Move or lose the unit, which is likely with the animals running around, and lose the bonus.

It would go along way to stopping the trait collecting at the start of the game and help reinforce their role as guarding the features as they get a normally very nice tangible bonus from doing so.

Edit : Just realized that this doesn't work for the Odio feature event as thats a once off reset on the world spell.

Cyrusfan
Jun 19, 2010, 04:07 PM
re:Feckinotter-I haven't played the Elohim recently, so I don't know what those bonuses are, but maybe the bonus traits could be limited to if the feature is in territory claimed by them?

re: More option menu options-I was thinking a couple for automated recon units would be good too, namely "Automated Recon units attack when odds are in their favor" (I'm thinking 90+%, this is so you can automate them to clean out spiders and such) and "Automated Recon units ignore dungeons" (Currently they wake up when they get to most any dungeon type-the ancient city ruins are currently ignored- and expect you to explore it and will move back to the same tile and wake up again if you re-automate them without exploring it).

odalrick
Jun 20, 2010, 01:34 AM
re: More option menu options-I was thinking a couple for automated recon units would be good too, namely "Automated Recon units attack when odds are in their favor"

That might be better as a new automation option. "Patrol Territory" maybe. Because you might not want all scouting units to attack at will, it could be used for other unit combats as well and you'd probably want them to seek out enemies rather than just randomly stumble upon them.

Forbid the units from crossing borders and you can automate them in friendly territory to keep the interior safe; in neutral territory to keep the barbarian population down; in open border civs to hunt their hidden nationality units or enemy territory to quickly kill them off.

Valkrionn
Jun 20, 2010, 01:42 AM
That might be better as a new automation option. "Patrol Territory" maybe. Because you might not want all scouting units to attack at will, it could be used for other unit combats as well and you'd probably want them to seek out enemies rather than just randomly stumble upon them.

Forbid the units from crossing borders and you can automate them in friendly territory to keep the interior safe; in neutral territory to keep the barbarian population down; in open border civs to hunt their hidden nationality units or enemy territory to quickly kill them off.

That is the way I would do it, frankly. Already considering making the "Seek out Lairs" behavior part of a new explore action.

EugeneStyles
Jun 20, 2010, 11:28 AM
That is the way I would do it, frankly. Already considering making the "Seek out Lairs" behavior part of a new explore action.

To be honest, I've always wanted more automation options. Sometimes I build Lunatics just so I don't have to control all of my troops. :D

Trappisto
Jun 20, 2010, 12:19 PM
I often have found myself wishing that scouts could be automated to explore but ignore all explorable featurs, as i kinda want to save these for adventurer promotion/world units to benefit from.

Cyrusfan
Jun 20, 2010, 11:13 PM
Valk, I'm not sure what you mean by "seek out lairs." As I was saying above, automated recon units will already divert to an explorable dungeon (again except the ancient city ruins) whenever they see them, quite stubbornly. There are times I'd like them to not do that.

Unless you mean you want them to sweep through any territory (rather than trying to uncover tiles) in the process. I can see that being useful.

Valkrionn
Jun 20, 2010, 11:20 PM
Valk, I'm not sure what you mean by "seek out lairs." As I was saying above, automated recon units will already divert to an explorable dungeon (again except the ancient city ruins) whenever they see them, quite stubbornly. There are times I'd like them to not do that.

Unless you mean you want them to sweep through any territory (rather than trying to uncover tiles) in the process. I can see that being useful.

My intent was to revert the explore action to the original method, and have the existing one as a NEW action. So you have explore, or explore/stop at lairs.

xeno_cws
Jun 22, 2010, 09:44 PM
My intent was to revert the explore action to the original method, and have the existing one as a NEW action. So you have explore, or explore/stop at lairs.

I would like this option if you could do it. Like trappisto I save lairs for my adventurers so it can get a bit annoying telling your scouts every couple of turns to ignore them. Nothing big but it would be nice.

Moosh
Jun 25, 2010, 12:27 AM
So I was just messing around and it's pretty late in the game I'm playing, but I had my Liches (that once I figured out I was an idiot and didn't have death mana to make originally) create their skeletons, since they were permanent. What are the chances of changing the code so I can hook them up with some master smith gear?

-Moosh

odalrick
Jun 25, 2010, 01:33 AM
So I was just messing around and it's pretty late in the game I'm playing, but I had my Liches (that once I figured out I was an idiot and didn't have death mana to make originally) create their skeletons, since they were permanent. What are the chances of changing the code so I can hook them up with some master smith gear?

-Moosh

Fairly non-existent. But I think the Scion leader Ophelia Rosenthal already can do that.

Valkrionn
Jun 25, 2010, 01:52 AM
What Odalrick said.

Skeletons do not have a unitcombat, so they cannot be promoted. At least one Scion leader (and possibly a sheaim or amurite leader, can't remember) grants summoned skeletons a promotion which gives them a unitcombat, allowing them to take promotions.

Meldon
Jun 25, 2010, 09:36 PM
I don't think it's Ophelia, I use her when I play Bannor and she doesn't affect skeletons. However, I've never played her as Scions so I don't know what she can do once she takes the Gift.

Valkrionn
Jun 25, 2010, 10:34 PM
She gains a new trait as Scions, and loses the Strategist trait.

gbheron19
Jun 26, 2010, 05:44 PM
I'm not going to read 50+ pages of posts so if some of these are repetitive forgive me.

Spell masteries are too hard (impossible?) to reach so a friend of mine and I experimented with allowing spellcasters to buy lvl2 and lvl3 spells in towns with an academy for 200gp and 400gp respectively. Seems balanced in play and puts more emphasis on your gp bank for non-khazad teams. NOTE - mages can still lvl to tier2 and 3 spells

The Hippus are a little too vanilla. I love the team but they need some development. 3 primary changes I would like to see are: 1) a good horse archer (three kingdoms has a mechanic whereby a calvary unit gets a percentage bonus to attack based on remaining move points - I like this idea for the HA), who needs mounted mercs? 2) A great commander that can keep up with the cavalry. Seems pretty obvious. 3) An arcane or a disciple unit that can keep up with the cavalry.

The Sidar also need development but beyond tweaking fade so that you aren't burning your experienced fighters I don't have any ideas.

Ever have 1 baby spider sire a legion of Giant Super Awesome Robot Ninja Spiders in about 100 turns? I have - seems a little out of control.

The Dural, the Austrin, the Kahd all feel like the same team and maybe they should be rolled together with the most interesting pieces of each to make 1 interesting team? This is definitely a personal judgement so please don't hunt me down and kill me if one of those is your pet team.

This last is a bit vague - It doesn't feel like there is enough relationship between the power of the spellcaster and the power of his/her spell. Dain's best Battlemage does little more with his fireball than a generic mage on his first day on the job.

p.s. I love the modmod, it rules - thank you to the developers!

lemonjelly
Jun 26, 2010, 05:56 PM
Well, the first one is a very interesting idea :)
The Sidar are being re-worked for 1.3
And, the Kahdi are gone :p
They're now an event you get as the Amurites :p

Valkrionn
Jun 26, 2010, 05:57 PM
I'm not going to read 50+ pages of posts so if some of these are repetitive forgive me.

No worries. ;)

Most of your suggestions are actually already planned in some form or another for a future patch. :p


Spell masteries are too hard (impossible?) to reach so a friend of mine and I experimented with allowing spellcasters to buy lvl2 and lvl3 spells in towns with an academy for 200gp and 400gp respectively. Seems balanced in play and puts more emphasis on your gp bank for non-khazad teams. NOTE - mages can still lvl to tier2 and 3 spells

Not allowing people to buy spells (Arcane Mastery is meant to be a nice little toy, not something that should be achievable every game), but spells in general will change in 1.4.


The Hippus are a little too vanilla. I love the team but they need some development. 3 primary changes I would like to see are: 1) a good horse archer (three kingdoms has a mechanic whereby a calvary unit gets a percentage bonus to attack based on remaining move points - I like this idea for the HA), who needs mounted mercs? 2) A great commander that can keep up with the cavalry. Seems pretty obvious. 3) An arcane or a disciple unit that can keep up with the cavalry.

Some things for the Hippus would be nice; Will have to wait for 1.5, however, massive unit changes that will drastically effect the balance between different unitlines.


The Sidar also need development but beyond tweaking fade so that you aren't burning your experienced fighters I don't have any ideas.

Sidar changes will be in 1.3, Grey Fox is nearly done with them. He'll probably write a blogpost over the next few days.


Ever have 1 baby spider sire a legion of Giant Super Awesome Robot Ninja Spiders in about 100 turns? I have - seems a little out of control.

Gone in 1.3.


The Dural, the Austrin, the Kahd all feel like the same team and maybe they should be rolled together with the most interesting pieces of each to make 1 interesting team? This is definitely a personal judgement so please don't hunt me down and kill me if one of those is your pet team.

Not sure how you combine those three (I always here Dural/Grigori, Austrin/Grigori/Hippus, Kahd/Amurites/Sheaim), but the Kahdi are already gone in 1.3. Dural I'm giving one last shot (have some ideas, and a new mechanic will feature heavily in them), and the Austrin could use a rebalance but I think are unique enough on their own.


This last is a bit vague - It doesn't feel like there is enough relationship between the power of the spellcaster and the power of his/her spell. Dain's best Battlemage does little more with his fireball than a generic mage on his first day on the job.

1.4.


p.s. I love the modmod, it rules - thank you to the developers!

Glad to hear it. :goodjob:

isthmus
Jun 26, 2010, 06:05 PM
Spell masteries are too hard (impossible?) to reach so a friend of mine and I experimented with allowing spellcasters to buy lvl2 and lvl3 spells in towns with an academy for 200gp and 400gp respectively.
I think this is already in the "arcane academies" module - but it's a good idea. However I'd prefer to see it implemented lateish in the tech tree, since its primary use is for older, more experienced casters to achieve the same level of usefulness as the brand new adepts who get a bunch of free promotions.

The Hippus are a little too vanilla.....
Agreed, I'd like to see more added to the hippus, but I think it's intended that they're vanilla - at least one civ needs to be close to standard BtS so it's familiar to new FfH players. I've seen several mods which include mounted mages and similar additions - these would be nice addons but it would require the modders who made the modules to release a RiFE compatible version.

Sidar are being worked on :)

Animals are getting sorted :)

The Dural, the Austrin, the Kahd all feel like the same team...
Kahd's gone. The others do seem to lack "something" but their gameplay is good and unique and the lore has enough promise to work on. I don't think rolling them all together will work. That said, I can't pinpoint what I find 'missing' from them compared to some other more well established civs.

This last is a bit vague - It doesn't feel like there is enough relationship between the power of the spellcaster and the power of his/her spell. Dain's best Battlemage does little more with his fireball than a generic mage on his first day on the job.

I'd like to see an age-related promotion that boosts the XP cap, gain rate and spell damage with age, which is similar to the giant promos.


ah damn... ninja'd..

Cyrusfan
Jun 26, 2010, 06:39 PM
Sidar changes will be in 1.3, Grey Fox is nearly done with them. He'll probably write a blogpost over the next few days.

Note to self: Don't bug Valk about 1.3 release date until after Grey Fox's blogpost re:Sidar

Valkrionn
Jun 26, 2010, 06:44 PM
Note to self: Don't bug Valk about 1.3 release date until after Grey Fox's blogpost re:Sidar

The earliest would be sometime next week. Waiting on something from Snarko, without which I can't finish the barb system (well, I can, but something he's changing will change something that I need to change, so it would be a pain to merge).

inuyashasama
Jun 26, 2010, 08:31 PM
The Hippus are a little too vanilla.

How about an enhanced mercenary system, like the one in Rhyse's mod. The ability to hire out your army without actually going to full out war would be really cool, IMO.

I'm disappointed that the mercenary mod is so buggy :(

Meldon
Jun 26, 2010, 08:42 PM
Speaking of Hippus and mercs, one thing I've thought about was that the entire Hippus civilization, according to the lore, ARE mercenaries. I've always wanted when another civ asks you to join them in a war, there to be an option that said, "What's in it for me?" to click on. Or, as stated, a way to hire out units to other civs to use without actually having to declare war.

stupidnewbie
Jun 26, 2010, 09:33 PM
but spells in general will change in 1.4.
1.4.
Well, looks like it's time to start bugging Valk about the 1.4 release date.

Moosh
Jun 26, 2010, 09:55 PM
Well, looks like it's time to start bugging Valk about the 1.4 release date.

I was thinking the same thing, and I haven't played 1.3 yet! *sigh*

-Moosh

Valkrionn
Jun 26, 2010, 11:57 PM
How about an enhanced mercenary system, like the one in Rhyse's mod. The ability to hire out your army without actually going to full out war would be really cool, IMO.

I'm disappointed that the mercenary mod is so buggy :(

I've actually been looking at the homeworld feature in Dune Wars. If it is OOS free, it would be a good addition, rather than the current Merc system. Hippus would have some boost for that.

Well, looks like it's time to start bugging Valk about the 1.4 release date.

1.4 is currently Leaders, Airandamar, and Magic. So it won't be as long as 1.3, seeing as the DLL work for the Leaders is pretty much done already. ;)

inuyashasama
Jun 27, 2010, 07:33 PM
How about merging some of the advanced automations from here? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=368841)

City Defense:
The unit will defend your cities. If a nearby, weaker enemy approaches, the unit will engage and destroy the enemy, and return to defending the city of origin.

Border Patrol
The unit will wander around the edges of your border, searching for potential enemies, and engage them.

Hunt
The unit will search and destroy any enemy units it can find.

Auto-Pillage
The unit will search and pillage any enemy improvements it can find.

Auto-Hurry
Not useful for normal BTS, but for any mods that add units that can hurry or speed up production of buildings in a city via the <iBaseHurry> XML tag will be able to be automated.

Auto-Pirate
Privateers and any other sea-faring, hidden, always hostile units will be able to cause terror on the open seas, sinking weak transports and blockading wealthy harbors.

Valkrionn
Jun 27, 2010, 07:46 PM
How about merging some of the advanced automations from here? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=368841)

City Defense:
The unit will defend your cities. If a nearby, weaker enemy approaches, the unit will engage and destroy the enemy, and return to defending the city of origin.

Border Patrol
The unit will wander around the edges of your border, searching for potential enemies, and engage them.

Hunt
The unit will search and destroy any enemy units it can find.

Auto-Pillage
The unit will search and pillage any enemy improvements it can find.

Auto-Hurry
Not useful for normal BTS, but for any mods that add units that can hurry or speed up production of buildings in a city via the <iBaseHurry> XML tag will be able to be automated.

Auto-Pirate
Privateers and any other sea-faring, hidden, always hostile units will be able to cause terror on the open seas, sinking weak transports and blockading wealthy harbors.

Some of those would indeed be nice. :goodjob:

DrunkenOrc
Jun 27, 2010, 08:53 PM
Stuff

Please god yes.

Also, is it intentional or a mishap that master of divination needs creation mana instead of life mana? Life mana is given by divination, whereas you get creation from alteration. Makes it really confusing when you're trying to go down one magic path.

shoggi
Jun 27, 2010, 10:18 PM
Also, is it intentional or a mishap that master of divination needs creation mana instead of life mana? Life mana is given by divination, whereas you get creation from alteration. Makes it really confusing when you're trying to go down one magic path.

Master of Divination requires Law, Sun, Force, Mind Spirit.
Master of Alteration requires Body, Enchantment, Creation, Life, Nature

The technology Divination allows Law, Sun, Mind, Spirit, Life
The technology Alteration allows Body, Enchantment, Creation, Nature, Force

You are right. There is definitely something weird going on here. never noticed it before really.

Valkrionn
Jun 27, 2010, 10:45 PM
Issue with the original mastery promotions that I never noticed... He has them slightly off, to balance the missing manas (two, creation and force, come from Alteration). I'll rebalance it... Also allows me to get rid of Master of Creation, but I now need a solitary master for Divination.

Turret
Jun 27, 2010, 11:02 PM
Ok, I am not sure if this is the best place to post this but I tried and tried to find a way to just send a private message directly to valkrionn and failed. So here it goes, I am a big time fan of the whole FFH series of mods and have been playing them for years. I now have time on my hand and am very interested in helping out in any way with the art for Rise from Erebus. There are some really cool things in the making like the new Bezeri race for example. I would love to make some cool frog or lizard units to really make the civ unique. I recently graduated from Full Sail University and want to get in some moding experience to put on my resume and if I can do that while working on one of my favorite games then it can't get much better then that. You can look at some of my models on my website www.krisf3d.com. Let me know what you think and if there is anyway you can use my skills on the mod.

Valkrionn
Jun 28, 2010, 12:02 AM
Ok, I am not sure if this is the best place to post this but I tried and tried to find a way to just send a private message directly to valkrionn and failed. So here it goes, I am a big time fan of the whole FFH series of mods and have been playing them for years. I now have time on my hand and am very interested in helping out in any way with the art for Rise from Erebus. There are some really cool things in the making like the new Bezeri race for example. I would love to make some cool frog or lizard units to really make the civ unique. I recently graduated from Full Sail University and want to get in some moding experience to put on my resume and if I can do that while working on one of my favorite games then it can't get much better then that. You can look at some of my models on my website www.krisf3d.com. Let me know what you think and if there is anyway you can use my skills on the mod.

The Bezeri are a bit far off atm, but we could DEFINITELY use some art... The biggest problem is honestly animation, so I'm hoping you are able to do that. :lol:

If it's lizards you'd like to do, though, we have the Cualli and Mazatl which both need art; The Cualli should be more vicious looking, but not necessarily primitive... More reliant on natural assets (thick skin, teeth, claws, horns, etc). The Mazatl are more noble, upright, less spikey, with advanced units in metal armor rather than just leather or cloth.

You weren't able to send me a pm because you don't have enough posts yet; Need 5, I believe. I can't invite you to any group yet, same post requirement, but if you'd like to make a new thread you can get messages to me there. ;)

shoggi
Jun 28, 2010, 12:36 AM
In regards to the mastery promotions:
i suggest, instead of making one mastery with just one spell sphere requirement per magic school, make one mastery require 3 and the other two.
the singular mastery never really made sense to me, since technically you gain two promotions for the price of one.
so the mastery could never be that strong or it would be totally overpowering.
but if you let one mastery require 3 spheres, you could balance them better.

DrunkenOrc
Jun 28, 2010, 12:55 AM
One thing I really enjoy about this mod is that different techs lead to different places; horseback riding, philosophy, bronze working, they all go on different paths instead of it being one big ugly blur.

However, for those of us who like to disable time victories and play for six days straight, it gets tiresome when you're researching the last few techs available to you and you know that you'll be grinding future tech soon.

So why not add a few more infinitely researchable techs that you get to from different paths? At the end of the combat path (Divine Essence), you could get a tech that makes all your units start with 1 additional XP. At the end of the trading path (Mercantilism, I think?), you could get +2% commerce in all cities, after machinery, +2% production, and for things like Armored Calvary, Precision, Theology, etc. you could have specific unit types produce faster/do more damage/ gain XP faster.

These are my thoughts. This would really expand the options in long games and the general feel of "Where am I going with this" when choosing what to research next.

Valkrionn
Jun 28, 2010, 12:59 AM
In regards to the mastery promotions:
i suggest, instead of making one mastery with just one spell sphere requirement per magic school, make one mastery require 3 and the other two.
the singular mastery never really made sense to me, since technically you gain two promotions for the price of one.
so the mastery could never be that strong or it would be totally overpowering.
but if you let one mastery require 3 spheres, you could balance them better.

Actually, I may leave them alone for now; Whole thing likely to change in 1.4 anyway. :lol:

One thing I really enjoy about this mod is that different techs lead to different places; horseback riding, philosophy, bronze working, they all go on different paths instead of it being one big ugly blur.

However, for those of us who like to disable time victories and play for six days straight, it gets tiresome when you're researching the last few techs available to you and you know that you'll be grinding future tech soon.

So why not add a few more infinitely researchable techs that you get to from different paths? At the end of the combat path (Divine Essence), you could get a tech that makes all your units start with 1 additional XP. At the end of the trading path (Mercantilism, I think?), you could get +2% commerce in all cities, after machinery, +2% production, and for things like Armored Calvary, Precision, Theology, etc. you could have specific unit types produce faster/do more damage/ gain XP faster.

These are my thoughts. This would really expand the options in long games and the general feel of "Where am I going with this" when choosing what to research next.

Not a bad idea, and something I've already thought of... Along with everything else in the mod, techs will be redone in 1.5. So I wouldn't expect anything along those lines before that, but it may well be in eventually.

DrunkenOrc
Jun 28, 2010, 01:32 PM
You make me have a very happy face, and for this I am grateful.

Elwist
Jun 28, 2010, 03:20 PM
I really like worker promotions and I suspect there will probably be more coming but one problem I have run into with them is that if you upgrade them so they can defend themselves they no longer try to avoid enemies the way they do before. This means that if you automate workers they tend to get killed. Any chance of having an option for workers to act the same whether they have hardy or not?

Valkrionn
Jun 28, 2010, 03:50 PM
I really like worker promotions and I suspect there will probably be more coming but one problem I have run into with them is that if you upgrade them so they can defend themselves they no longer try to avoid enemies the way they do before. This means that if you automate workers they tend to get killed. Any chance of having an option for workers to act the same whether they have hardy or not?

Seeing as we now have the capability to add (and remove) buildorders via promotion, yes, there will be more worker promotions eventually (not really in 1.3, but later on).

I'm tempted to remove the defense from those promotions entirely, and instead just use withdrawal... That will have to wait for anti-withdrawal, however, so 1.5.

Jarlean
Jun 28, 2010, 04:07 PM
Anti-withdraw! Wow I sense a giant Hippus nerf coming

Valkrionn
Jun 28, 2010, 04:15 PM
Anti-withdraw! Wow I sense a giant Hippus nerf coming

Not really. Part of the unit rebalancing, which is why it won't be in yet (1.5). Hippus will get some bonuses. ;)

Torugu
Jun 29, 2010, 08:22 AM
I'm tempted to remove the defense from those promotions entirely, and instead just use withdrawal... That will have to wait for anti-withdrawal, however, so 1.5.

Great idea, I'm tired of loosing champions against 7 strength (hardy + mutated) workers. -.-

Cyrusfan
Jun 29, 2010, 02:00 PM
Some time ago, I think last week, an inquiry was made about the Faeries non-inclusion, which is because of the princess rule and their similarity to the elves. I was thinking, rather than include the Faeries, what about appropriating some of their features and applying them to te elves. Specifically, if a player of svartalfar or ljosofar beats a player of the other he would 'reunite' the court and gain the best versions of units and buildings (to the extent there are any) of both.

Completely unrelated to that, I was also thinking about the longstanding issue with earlier-built arcane units being 'worse' than newer ones because the new ones get more free spells, assuming you've expanded and developed your mana nodes in the interim. I was wondering if we could just run the check for free spells, that normally occurs when a unit is upgraded, when it levels up as well. The obvious exploit would be to repeatedly level and reassign all your mana nodes, but the more I think of that, the less I think I'd be tempted to try it since to matter, you'd be doing it with archmages which take a while to level. Except for Calabim and Grigori adventurers. So I think what would be required for this to work is a check that would prevent a free spell from being assigned if the resulting number of promotions exceeded :
Unit Level - 1 +Tier +Total Mana resources - Total mana types (roughly).

I know there are going to be changes in 1.4, so I'm really only making this request as a stopgap.

Ghostslayer
Jul 02, 2010, 06:38 AM
What about some trapping mecanism in the game?

A trap would be set by a recon (or a specific unit). Available at Tracking and/or Deception.
Can be put in either own, unclaimed or enemy territory.
Seen as an improvment and not stackable with other improvments.
Safe and visible by the civ that set it.
Invisible for others but it can be detected and become visible.
.
Whenever an unit enters or stays on a trapped tile:
* 70% chance to set off the trap if it is detected (90% if it is not detected). Does 40 % damage (can kill).
* 10% chance to disarm (destroy) it (20% if the trap is detected)
* 20% chance to detect it (50% if it has been triggered)

Recons can gain promotions to
* cast a spell that creates a trap
* cast a spell that detects traps in surrounding tiles (revelation also detects traps)
* cast a spell that destroys detected traps in surronding tiles (maybe dispell magic also does it)
* improve their escape, detection and destroy chance when walking on a trap.

Could be reserved to some recon oriented civ (or even better to an Esus follower).

Trapping would be a minor mechanism in the game, but at a strategic position an heavily trapped zone can ruin an invading army.

lemonjelly
Jul 02, 2010, 01:20 PM
Valkrionn, I have some serious feedback to give to you.

Valky and anw sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G!

Cyrusfan
Jul 02, 2010, 01:20 PM
I don't know about the military application, but I'd certainly like to see that for animals/beasts. I'd like to see it as a spell automatically given to Hunters and above that can only be cast in the wild (no culture, so not near 1.3's animal lairs) and not adjacent to another trap [This should also have some reasonable gold cost]. If a barbarian animal/beast enters the tile, combat with the trap occurs as if a 0 experience non-fortified Hunter was in the tile (so terrain bonuses would apply)[Also, the trap should be set to defend last if anything else is on the tile]. If the barb wins, the trap is destroyed. If the trap wins, the trap is still destroyed, but the barb survives, at 0.0 health and leashed to the tile until fully healed (so an actual unit with the relevant promo has to come claim it, and not necessarily one of the team that set the trap). With modifications as follows:

When you have the capacity to build either Rangers or Beastmasters, those unit's stats are used rather than those of a Hunter.
With Poisons tech (I think) a victorious trap inflicts the Poisoned promo on its victim. The Svartalfar leader (or maybe its any of them-I'm not sure) who gives his units +1 Poison strength would already have this effect.
With Knowledge of the Ether, a victorious traps causes a floating eye to come into existence for 5 turns (so a glance at the minimap will tell you something is 'trapped').
With Tracking tech and a meat resource in your capitol, you set Baited traps, which barb AI is favored to approach, but revert to basic Traps after some number of turns. Baiting an existing trap should be less expensive than setting a new one.
With <some tech higher than Tracking-sorry, I just don't pay a lot of attention to this tech line normally> Baited traps defend against non-Barb animals/beasts. Not attract them, because I assumed non-barb animals have as part of their unit someone who trains and commands the animal.
With some yet higher tech, Baited traps don't downgrade, and don't get destroyed when a target is defeated. Though like any improvement, they can be overbuilt.

arcticnightwolf
Jul 02, 2010, 01:25 PM
Valkrionn, I have some serious feedback to give to you.

once again you are making public something from internal rife forum ...

edit: when i look at this post, i think that users must wonder, what we are doing there :D

black_imperator
Jul 02, 2010, 01:38 PM
What would make them worry is the fact this post is representative of the team forum ^^

Valkrionn
Jul 02, 2010, 01:39 PM
Heh. That post was in reference to a module anw is working on.

black_imperator
Jul 02, 2010, 01:46 PM
an " only for Adult " module , you should precise

Valkrionn
Jul 02, 2010, 01:50 PM
LOL No, a comic module. See it in his sig. :p

arcticnightwolf
Jul 02, 2010, 01:53 PM
What would make them worry is the fact this post is representative of the team forum ^^

an " only for Adult " module , you should precise

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA ... nice black_imperator :D :D

RickF7666
Jul 03, 2010, 04:37 PM
I decided to give your mod a try. I started a plain jane game and won a conquest victory by turn 90 having never encountered another civ. All the computer civs got wiped out by monsters I guess. I have to admit it made me laugh, but not what I would call a challenging game.

Valkrionn
Jul 03, 2010, 04:39 PM
I decided to give your mod a try. I started a plain jane game and won a conquest victory by turn 90 having never encountered another civ. All the computer civs got wiped out by monsters I guess. I have to admit it made me laugh, but not what I would call a challenging game.

Yes, right now the barbs can be a bit much. Either turn off animals, or turn on "Timid Animals"; That will fix much of it.

Next version there will be a new barb system in place.

Cyrusfan
Jul 03, 2010, 06:36 PM
RickF7666, there's about to be a new version that addresses a lot of longstanding problems. What you're seeing is a mismatch between a severe ramp up in difficulty of barbarians and the AI for other players' ability to defend against them. In the short run, you might try increasing the difficulty setting (as that let's the AI players get more defenders out and more workers to replace those currently getting whacked while attempting to build mills) and turn Timid Animals on (or the No Animals option) which will keep the worst of what's out there away from AI cities.

Edit: Note to self refresh when you've been away from the computer for a while.

Moosh
Jul 04, 2010, 02:05 PM
So since you are going to be working on the leaders, could I perhaps post an idea in regards to Baron Duin Halfmorn? Erebus has a vampire civ, but not werewolf civ. It doesn't seem likely to get a civ either since they'd have so much in common with the Doviello that it wouldn't be funny. How about a leader then for the Doviello that makes that civ more of a werewolf civ? Oh snaps, it does, but it's really not that impressive. Every unit gets Lycanthrope which means units Ignore Terrain Costs and can take the Cannibalize promotion after Strength II, in exchange for no religion. Doesn't seem like that great of a trade. Sure he gets a special werewolf unit later on but eh...

So without further ado my suggestion;

Baron Duin Halfmorn
Chaotic Evil
Major Leader
-Agnostic;
--Leader cannot adopt a state religion
--Reduces the chance religions will spread to the leader's cities
-Savage Lycanthropic
--Free Promotion (Lycanthrope)
--Other Leaders look less favorably on your civilization's way of life.
-Blood of the Lycans
--Religions are -50% likely to spread to your cities
--You relish in your natural state to the point of a religious zeal, upsetting other religions

Okay, so I've just added a bunch more negatives, almost to the point that any good civilization is going to want to rip your head off and post in on a pike as soon as they meet you. That's because I'm suggestions an age system for the Lycans similar to the age system used for Giantkin;

Lycanthrope
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-Can Learn Cannibalize

Greater Lycanthrope
-Earned at age 100
-Removes Lycanthrope Promotion
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-Can Learn Cannibalize

Basically after 100 turns the unit is faster, hence mobility I promotion, he's more in tune with his feral bond.

Lycan
-Earned at age 200, requires Cannibalize Promotion
-Removes Greater Lycanthrope Promotion
-Cannot receive Mithril Weapons Promotions and Removes said promotion when received
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-+1 Strength
-+1 Defense
--25% vs Mithril Weapons

Basically at 200 turns these civilized Werewolves are really giving into their feral bond, mithril is now causing them pain but they are faster, and stronger then humans

Greater Lycan
-Earned at age 300, requires Cannibalize Promotion
-Removes Lycan Promotion
-Cannot receive Mithril Weapons Promotions and Removes said promotion when received
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-+2 Strength
-+2 Defense
--50% vs Mithril Weapons

More of a filer promo to delay getting the full werewolf promo, the unit is now on par with a unit of the same type having mithril weapons, the draw back is the unit is deathly susceptible to mithril as a whole and it would be best in something else dealt with the mithril sword wielding unit.

Werewolf
-Earned at age 400, requires Cannibalize Promotion
-Removes Greater Lycan Promotion
-Cannot receive Mithril Weapons Promotions and Removes said promotion when received
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Grants Werewolf Promotion
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-+3 Strength
-+3 Defense
--50% vs Mithril Weapons

Now the unit has fully given himself over to what other civilizations consider a disease; he is faster and stronger then an equivalent unit with the mithril weapon promotion, only catch is that mithril is the werewolf's bane. The unit is also able to send his infection over to units it has defeated, unfortunately having not grown up with it coursing through their veins their entire life, they have the chance of going insane or dying, basically using the mechanic that is already in the game.

So... what do you think? Little hodge podge I know but it came to me and hey it's an idea thread, figured I'd throw out my idea.

-Moosh

Valkrionn
Jul 04, 2010, 02:47 PM
So since you are going to be working on the leaders, could I perhaps post an idea in regards to Baron Duin Halfmorn? Erebus has a vampire civ, but not werewolf civ. It doesn't seem likely to get a civ either since they'd have so much in common with the Doviello that it wouldn't be funny. How about a leader then for the Doviello that makes that civ more of a werewolf civ? Oh snaps, it does, but it's really not that impressive. Every unit gets Lycanthrope which means units Ignore Terrain Costs and can take the Cannibalize promotion after Strength II, in exchange for no religion. Doesn't seem like that great of a trade. Sure he gets a special werewolf unit later on but eh...

So without further ado my suggestion;

Baron Duin Halfmorn
Chaotic Evil
Major Leader
-Agnostic;
--Leader cannot adopt a state religion
--Reduces the chance religions will spread to the leader's cities
-Savage Lycanthropic
--Free Promotion (Lycanthrope)
--Other Leaders look less favorably on your civilization's way of life.
-Blood of the Lycans
--Religions are -50% likely to spread to your cities
--You relish in your natural state to the point of a religious zeal, upsetting other religions

Okay, so I've just added a bunch more negatives, almost to the point that any good civilization is going to want to rip your head off and post in on a pike as soon as they meet you. That's because I'm suggestions an age system for the Lycans similar to the age system used for Giantkin;

Lycanthrope
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-Can Learn Cannibalize

Greater Lycanthrope
-Earned at age 100
-Removes Lycanthrope Promotion
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-Can Learn Cannibalize

Basically after 100 turns the unit is faster, hence mobility I promotion, he's more in tune with his feral bond.

Lycan
-Earned at age 200, requires Cannibalize Promotion
-Removes Greater Lycanthrope Promotion
-Cannot receive Mithril Weapons Promotions and Removes said promotion when received
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-+1 Strength
-+1 Defense
--25% vs Mithril Weapons

Basically at 200 turns these civilized Werewolves are really giving into their feral bond, mithril is now causing them pain but they are faster, and stronger then humans

Greater Lycan
-Earned at age 300, requires Cannibalize Promotion
-Removes Lycan Promotion
-Cannot receive Mithril Weapons Promotions and Removes said promotion when received
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-+2 Strength
-+2 Defense
--50% vs Mithril Weapons

More of a filer promo to delay getting the full werewolf promo, the unit is now on par with a unit of the same type having mithril weapons, the draw back is the unit is deathly susceptible to mithril as a whole and it would be best in something else dealt with the mithril sword wielding unit.

Werewolf
-Earned at age 400, requires Cannibalize Promotion
-Removes Greater Lycan Promotion
-Cannot receive Mithril Weapons Promotions and Removes said promotion when received
-Grants Promotion (Mobility I)
-Grants Werewolf Promotion
-Ignores Terrain Costs
-+3 Strength
-+3 Defense
--50% vs Mithril Weapons

Now the unit has fully given himself over to what other civilizations consider a disease; he is faster and stronger then an equivalent unit with the mithril weapon promotion, only catch is that mithril is the werewolf's bane. The unit is also able to send his infection over to units it has defeated, unfortunately having not grown up with it coursing through their veins their entire life, they have the chance of going insane or dying, basically using the mechanic that is already in the game.

So... what do you think? Little hodge podge I know but it came to me and hey it's an idea thread, figured I'd throw out my idea.

-Moosh

In short: No. There are several reason for that.



Major leaders may only have traits from a specific pool; This is a firm design decision to keep the divisions between leader types distinct, and will be greatly enhanced in 1.4.
My goal with Baron was never to make them more werewolf-esque, but to emphasize their ferality. He is a fitting lore leader for them; We know he was resurrected, we know the Doviello resurrected Charadon and thus were capable of it, and he lead them in one of the FfH scenarios.
I don't particularly like the idea of a werewolf civ, or making the Doviello (Feral men) into lycans. IMO, Varulv is a big enough boost in that direction; As Baron, you are guaranteed access to werewolves, noone can beat you to them.
Emergent leaders are getting a radical facelift, with their current mechanic going to Minors. Baron will be quite a bit stronger when 1.4 is released.

Moosh
Jul 04, 2010, 06:43 PM
Alright, well question. If Varulv "challenges" another unit, and the other unit looses, is there the possibility of the lost unit becoming a ravenous werewolf?

-Moosh

Valkrionn
Jul 04, 2010, 06:51 PM
Alright, well question. If Varulv "challenges" another unit, and the other unit looses, is there the possibility of the lost unit becoming a ravenous werewolf?

-Moosh


Nope. Could add it (for all werewolves), but it's not an actual combat even if it uses the same odds.

Get a recon unit in the stack with Varulv. They can (temporarily) become werewolves.

Moosh
Jul 04, 2010, 07:09 PM
Alright, thanks for the feedback. :)

-Moosh

BiffQJ
Jul 05, 2010, 04:08 AM
One thing I was wondering, is it intentional that because he is agnostic, Baron Duin can't get the bonus to animal spawning from Fellowship of the Leaves? Maybe he should have some kind of additional bonus on the Lycanthrope trait?

Valkrionn
Jul 05, 2010, 08:57 AM
One thing I was wondering, is it intentional that because he is agnostic, Baron Duin can't get the bonus to animal spawning from Fellowship of the Leaves? Maybe he should have some kind of additional bonus on the Lycanthrope trait?

It is intentional, yes. I see Baron as relying on the Doviello themselves for his army, disregarding the abilities of Nature. For him, you want to make use of the Scavenge mechanic... No upkeep costs after successful combat, plus healing after combat? Very nice combo.

There will be a different Emergent leader more focused on the animals.

Olaf_The_Great
Jul 06, 2010, 03:15 AM
I had a really fun playthrough as the Mazatl, aiming for a cultural victory. I simply love the concept of the emergent and minor leaders, but haven't been able to take advantage of it. I like how the UI was expanded, and the expanded civ names add a nice touch. The AI seems to handle most civilizations well, but in my first game, the Scions were pretty much useless and the Hippus dominated(Partly due to Viconia being wiped out by barbarians and the Bannor restricted the entire game to a handful of cities. Despite me taking a peaceful approach, it actually seemed like if I were to try for a conquest Victory, it might actually be possible unlike normal FFH with it's endless stacks of doom.

My Mazatl game was perfect in speed, but every playthrough after the first has been grueling and impossibly slow. I never seen anything like that happen. I was even playing in windowed mode with several programs such as AIM and Firefox in the background actively being used while playing as the Mazatl, and that game was on a large map with higher graphics than the others.

If I go and play vanilla FFH, it seems fine. I don't have Fall Further, but I would assume it would be the same. Is there some option in the files I may have inadvertently turned on that is slowing my game down so much?

Also, a question:When/How do emergent and minor leaders gain new traits? I managed to acquire an additional trait in a the Mazatl Republic, but as I said before, I haven't been able to play any new games.

Alsark
Jul 06, 2010, 07:32 AM
Also, a question:When/How do emergent and minor leaders gain new traits? I managed to acquire an additional trait in a the Mazatl Republic, but as I said before, I haven't been able to play any new games.

I can't answer your technical questions, but I can address this. Emergent leaders gain traits the following way:


Aggressive
Bronze Working - 3%
Iron Working - 5%
Kill Another Civ - 100%

Arcane
Knowledge of the Ether - 3% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Summoner
Sorcery - 50% - if gained 5% chance to also gain Summoner
Build Arcane Libralus - 100%

Creative
Festivals - 3%
Drama - 20%

Expansive
Sanitation - 10% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Ingenuity
Medicine - 20%
Upon Reaching 8 Cities - 20%

Financial
Trade - 10%
Currency - 20% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Organized
Mathematics - 50% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Philosophical

Industrious
Construction - 3% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Expansive
Smelting - 10% - if gained, 5% chance to also gain Aggressive
Engineering - 20% - if gained 5% chance to also gain Expansive

Ingenuity
Start a Golden Age - 50%

Magic Defense
Build 2nd Altar of Luonnotar - 100%

Organized
Code of Laws - 3% - if gained, 5% to also gain Financial
Military Strategy - 20% - if gained, 5% to also gain Aggressive
Build Forbidden Palace - 100%

Philosophical
Writing - 3% - if gained 5% to also gain Creative
Philosophical - 50% - if gained, 5% to also gain Creative
Each Great Person Born - 10%

Raiders
Pillage Improvement - 5%
Raze City - 10%

Spiritual
Priesthood - 3%
Religious Law - 10%
Fanatacism - 20%
Found a Religion - 50%

In other words, when you kill another civilization, you will be prompted with: "Would you like to lose the emergent trait and gain the aggressive trait?" Ingenuity seems to be an exception to losing the emergent trait - because in one game I gained ingenuity and went on later to also acquire Arcane.

Currently, minor leaders cannot gain traits - what they have is what they get; however, what they do get is often a unique trait or a trait set that might be very different from what other leaders in their civilization have.

Valkrionn
Jul 06, 2010, 09:22 AM
I had a really fun playthrough as the Mazatl, aiming for a cultural victory. I simply love the concept of the emergent and minor leaders, but haven't been able to take advantage of it. I like how the UI was expanded, and the expanded civ names add a nice touch. The AI seems to handle most civilizations well, but in my first game, the Scions were pretty much useless and the Hippus dominated(Partly due to Viconia being wiped out by barbarians and the Bannor restricted the entire game to a handful of cities. Despite me taking a peaceful approach, it actually seemed like if I were to try for a conquest Victory, it might actually be possible unlike normal FFH with it's endless stacks of doom.

My Mazatl game was perfect in speed, but every playthrough after the first has been grueling and impossibly slow. I never seen anything like that happen. I was even playing in windowed mode with several programs such as AIM and Firefox in the background actively being used while playing as the Mazatl, and that game was on a large map with higher graphics than the others.

If I go and play vanilla FFH, it seems fine. I don't have Fall Further, but I would assume it would be the same. Is there some option in the files I may have inadvertently turned on that is slowing my game down so much?

Also, a question:When/How do emergent and minor leaders gain new traits? I managed to acquire an additional trait in a the Mazatl Republic, but as I said before, I haven't been able to play any new games.

There will be a large speed boost in the next version of RifE. Believe Alsark already answered your questions about how you gain traits.

Olaf_The_Great
Jul 06, 2010, 09:49 AM
Thank you both very much, I have managed to speed up the game a little and now I'm playing as Reorx Veinhunter.

Valkrionn
Jul 06, 2010, 09:50 AM
Reorx is one of my favorite leaders. ;)

Torugu
Jul 06, 2010, 12:01 PM
That is not how the new mechanic will work. Please do not spread misinformation. Shouldn't be mentioning that at all.

Sounds pretty close to what was on the wiki last time I checked, I guess the devil is in the details?

arcticnightwolf
Jul 06, 2010, 12:25 PM
request: i want new leader with this picture http://cdn.steampowered.com/v/gfx/apps/49400/ss_cddc3f2b83e2764404997d338f125a83bd90a665.1920x1 080.jpg?t=1277774205

edit: without loading bar: http://www.eyeofthevortexonline.com/Images/Thm3/ROE/ROE_1.jpg

Valkrionn
Jul 06, 2010, 12:29 PM
Find it without the loading bar, and maybe.

KrugSmash
Jul 06, 2010, 02:25 PM
She looks Bannor or Elohim to me.

tesb
Jul 06, 2010, 03:21 PM
the problem is not the loading bar but the missing upper head

Alsark
Jul 06, 2010, 04:12 PM
the problem is not the loading bar but the missing upper head

Yeah, I'd agree with that one.

arcticnightwolf
Jul 07, 2010, 02:04 AM
the problem is not the loading bar but the missing upper head

Yeah, I'd agree with that one.

ok, so then at least as a hero unit ? :D

Cyrusfan
Jul 07, 2010, 04:41 PM
Does (rather "Could") the smart terrain option cover resources? For example, there's no reason to place patrian artifacts if the Scions aren't in the game (much less camels without Malakim, which in a way are worse because you can see them without going into worldbuilder).

Valkrionn
Jul 07, 2010, 04:58 PM
Camels can be seen and harvested by anyone, and are NOT worse; They are only in the desert, and grant a much needed hammer boost.

As for the other: No. We have different plans. ;)

Cyrusfan
Jul 07, 2010, 06:02 PM
Really? I thought it was a bug that I was seeing them, but that was as D'tesh and I was miffed that I couldn't ash them. What I meant by worse is the fact that they're there, means another improvement can't 'find' a resource on that tile and seeing them is more of a taunt than the artifacts. But I'll try to use them from here on out.

Will other folks be able to use Artifacts (presumably at diminished values)?

Valkrionn
Jul 07, 2010, 06:13 PM
Really? I thought it was a bug that I was seeing them, but that was as D'tesh and I was miffed that I couldn't ash them. What I meant by worse is the fact that they're there, means another improvement can't 'find' a resource on that tile and seeing them is more of a taunt than the artifacts. But I'll try to use them from here on out.

Will other folks be able to use Artifacts (presumably at diminished values)?

They are able to be gathered by any Pasture; Hell, desert pastures can discover them. They just aren't usable as anything more than a tile boost by non-Malakim civs.

They are also ashable next version. ;)

Our plan for civ-unique resources is to all others to access them, mid-late game. So the Scions will start able to see the Artifacts, but at some tech in the game you will be able to see them as well; The Lanun will start able to see Pearls, but a dead-end naval tech will allow others the ability.

Cyrusfan
Jul 08, 2010, 06:01 PM
For that Muris clan goblin event, I'd sure like an option along the lines of "Oh are they? We'll see about that-gather the troops!" which spawns some number of barb goblins on the tile (maybe an extra one for each time this option had been taken in the game to keep it relavent as the game wears on).

Valkrionn
Jul 08, 2010, 06:32 PM
That would be possible.

Olaf_The_Great
Jul 09, 2010, 04:00 AM
There needs to be some unique outcome for the Scions getting the "Immigrants seeking shelter" random event. Right now they can get an additional population or a settler.

Valkrionn
Jul 09, 2010, 09:21 AM
I see no issue with them getting a settler in that manner....?

Cyrusfan
Jul 09, 2010, 01:57 PM
I see less problem with them getting population as starved for population as they've been every time I've tried them.

Buchas
Jul 10, 2010, 02:14 AM
Hi,
I played FFH2 for a long time, now wanted smth new, and found this mod :)
I was trying out the new race 'The Leggion', and what can I say is that D'tesh is the biggest imbalance of all. :)

Binding stones (no unwealthy, no unhappy population) + Slavery + Sholarship (unlimited Sage) is such a deadly combination, that can not be stopped. Now the game I am playing I have lvl 125 capital in turn 215. I get slaves, add to the city and convert them to Sages for +5 research. That city alone is generating ~2000 research points and ~200 Gold. This is more research than all the other players have together :D

How can a race without Binding stones compete with D'tesh???

I think the idea of something (building, civ, promotion) being unlimited is a very bad idea. The game balanse gets totally uncontrollable. A player can add several 'unlimited' features to receive various deadly combos. (There are 4 of them in my example).

I would suggest removing "Unlimited sage" from Sholarchip (or make it a fixed reasonable amount like +4). The same goes with Binding stones. (a +3 health and +3 happyness is a very nice boost worth going for from the start, i think.)

Please dont leave "unlimited" features in the next patch :D

Keep up with the good work! :)

Grey Fox
Jul 10, 2010, 04:52 AM
D'Tesh is getting quite a bit of balancing in 1.3, for instance a pop limit on cities.

Valkrionn
Jul 10, 2010, 11:28 AM
Hi,
I played FFH2 for a long time, now wanted smth new, and found this mod :)
I was trying out the new race 'The Leggion', and what can I say is that D'tesh is the biggest imbalance of all. :)

Binding stones (no unwealthy, no unhappy population) + Slavery + Sholarship (unlimited Sage) is such a deadly combination, that can not be stopped. Now the game I am playing I have lvl 125 capital in turn 215. I get slaves, add to the city and convert them to Sages for +5 research. That city alone is generating ~2000 research points and ~200 Gold. This is more research than all the other players have together :D

How can a race without Binding stones compete with D'tesh???

I think the idea of something (building, civ, promotion) being unlimited is a very bad idea. The game balanse gets totally uncontrollable. A player can add several 'unlimited' features to receive various deadly combos. (There are 4 of them in my example).

I would suggest removing "Unlimited sage" from Sholarchip (or make it a fixed reasonable amount like +4). The same goes with Binding stones. (a +3 health and +3 happyness is a very nice boost worth going for from the start, i think.)

Please dont leave "unlimited" features in the next patch :D

Keep up with the good work! :)

Check this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9159471&postcount=2

D'tesh are soft-limited in number of cities, limited in the amount of pop that can go in a city, etc. Got some new ties (better defense), lost some old ones (recon become visible after attacking), and are just better balanced.

Torugu
Jul 10, 2010, 01:10 PM
Completely unrelated: Have you ever considered including RoM: AND's Fixed Borders Mechanism?

Valkrionn
Jul 10, 2010, 01:44 PM
No idea what that is, but it sounds similar to something Opera has already designed for when we redo the civics. :lol:

Opera
Jul 10, 2010, 01:58 PM
Not really. Not sure I like Afforess' Fixed Borders anyway.

Valkrionn
Jul 10, 2010, 01:59 PM
Could you describe it then?

Opera
Jul 10, 2010, 03:07 PM
It makes it impossible for borders to expand in any way, except by claiming a tile with units (or founding cities I guess), while my change modify the maximum extent of every city's culture.

So it's kinda like Afforess' is more about actual borders between nations while mine is more about influence or some such.

Valkrionn
Jul 10, 2010, 03:11 PM
Ah. Yeah, I like the method you've designed better.

Torugu
Jul 10, 2010, 06:34 PM
Borders still expand normally depending on the cities culture, they just don't push back other borders depending on the culture of the bolder tiles.

Though I was thinking more about how Fixed Borders let's cities keep their cultural borders even after conquest, meaning that a) 3rd parties won't profit from your wars with your neighbours and, more importantly, b) newly conquered cities won't starve due to a lack of tiles to work anymore. (Not sure if Opera's method does anything in that regard?)

Valkrionn
Jul 10, 2010, 06:54 PM
Well, IDW does. Though that won't be accessible immediately.

Opera's method helps somewhat as well.

Segolenus
Jul 10, 2010, 10:40 PM
Since the undead promotion blocks diseased, is the diseased corpse still supposed to start with diseased? The civilopedia says so, but the actual unit turns out to not have that promotion after all.

Valkrionn
Jul 10, 2010, 10:46 PM
Good catch; Fixed next version.

Buchas
Jul 11, 2010, 03:55 AM
Check this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...71&postcount=2

D'tesh are soft-limited in number of cities, limited in the amount of pop that can go in a city, etc. Got some new ties (better defense), lost some old ones (recon become visible after attacking), and are just better balanced.

Here is another example of imbalance created by 'unlimited' features. :)

I am trying out a combo of Lord D'tesh (who reapperas in capital if killed) + Black Mirror (creates a copy of a unit that lasts 1 turn) + Nexum Gate (transports the unit to any city).

Using black mirror I create a copy of Lord D'tesh, who is exactly the same as original, only dies the next turn. When the copy dies, it reappears in the capital, and I copy the original Lord D'tesh once again. Now I have 2 copies reappearing in the capital every turn... I can make then as much as I want. :) If I need a city to be defended, I can teleport one there, using the Nexum Gate.

You simply cant think through all the possibilities that 'unlimited' features might be combined with. And with every new version, with every new race the number of such features increases... giving so many ways to abuse the AI.
Sorry to sound sceptical, but I am afraid the game will never be balansed. :)

Opera
Jul 11, 2010, 04:04 AM
Unlimited features per se aren't an issue.

The thing you're talking about here is an exploit though, I don't think summons/illusions (which is what the black mirror creates) should have the capacity to be reborn like immortals.

Opera
Jul 11, 2010, 04:05 AM
Borders still expand normally depending on the cities culture, they just don't push back other borders depending on the culture of the bolder tiles.

Though I was thinking more about how Fixed Borders let's cities keep their cultural borders even after conquest, meaning that a) 3rd parties won't profit from your wars with your neighbours and, more importantly, b) newly conquered cities won't starve due to a lack of tiles to work anymore. (Not sure if Opera's method does anything in that regard?)It doesn't but it could. I will think about it :)

Valkrionn
Jul 11, 2010, 09:02 AM
Here is another example of imbalance created by 'unlimited' features. :)

I am trying out a combo of Lord D'tesh (who reapperas in capital if killed) + Black Mirror (creates a copy of a unit that lasts 1 turn) + Nexum Gate (transports the unit to any city).

Using black mirror I create a copy of Lord D'tesh, who is exactly the same as original, only dies the next turn. When the copy dies, it reappears in the capital, and I copy the original Lord D'tesh once again. Now I have 2 copies reappearing in the capital every turn... I can make then as much as I want. :) If I need a city to be defended, I can teleport one there, using the Nexum Gate.

You simply cant think through all the possibilities that 'unlimited' features might be combined with. And with every new version, with every new race the number of such features increases... giving so many ways to abuse the AI.
Sorry to sound sceptical, but I am afraid the game will never be balansed. :)

That is an exploit that should be quashed, not an 'unlimited feature'.

Grey Fox
Jul 11, 2010, 10:03 AM
A simple way to fix an exploit is to just not ever do it. :p

Valkrionn
Jul 11, 2010, 10:45 AM
Yeah, can't count on that. That would be something we have to fix in the code. Not hard, just add a check to the immortal code for Illusion status.

odalrick
Jul 11, 2010, 12:28 PM
Yeah, can't count on that. That would be something we have to fix in the code. Not hard, just add a check to the immortal code for Illusion status.

Would be the wrong way to solve it.

Rather the "duration runs out" effect should disallow immortality and resurrection should retain both duration and master status.

Moosh
Jul 11, 2010, 12:44 PM
Check this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9159471&postcount=2

D'tesh are soft-limited in number of cities, limited in the amount of pop that can go in a city, etc. Got some new ties (better defense), lost some old ones (recon become visible after attacking), and are just better balanced.

This may be toned down... However, this tech line atm has very little to offer the D'tesh (no buildings that increase pop limit), and you can only have 4. Will wait for feedback from testers before nerfing it.

So just a random suggestion, but since you have them as "Disciple Unitcombat" as a temporary work around, why not use it to your advantage and for lore purposes. You either study the arcane as a human to reach the pinnacle of arcane power in the mind of all D'tesh, by becoming a Lich. Or you worship Lord D'Tesh as if we was a god. Give them a building you get at some point between Iron Working and Mithril Working that's called "Abbey of the Hand of D'Tesh" (It's only purpose for being created would be a +2 to total city population) and change the Unit "Hand of D'Tesh" to an Undead Unit, and make it so only Disciple Unitcombat of level 8 or higher can upgrade to them. The Lore then becomes that Lord D'Tesh has mastered undead and all things necromantic. Those humans that follow him either study the arcane in an attempt to be as powerful as him (and eventually undead) or they worship him hoping to be those selected to be reborn in his image. Thus the Abbey of the Hand of D'Tesh is where only those who show high enough fervor in their worship of D'Tesh and are obviously more useful as something besides a mindless wretched are "gifted" with the gift of Undeath by Lord D'Tesh's Council of Four.

Or not, just that line where you mentioned that this tech line had nothing to offer to the D'Tesh as a whole struck me as odd, if you give them a building that adds to Pop in each city, adds more Lore to the Civ, and gives them strong units seemed kinda balance at that point. But that's just me, just my suggestion, it is your mod, just trying to make an awesome game more awesome.

-Moosh

Valkrionn
Jul 11, 2010, 01:07 PM
Would be the wrong way to solve it.

Rather the "duration runs out" effect should disallow immortality and resurrection should retain both duration and master status.

That would be the more difficult, better way, yes. :lol:

So just a random suggestion, but since you have them as "Disciple Unitcombat" as a temporary work around, why not use it to your advantage and for lore purposes. You either study the arcane as a human to reach the pinnacle of arcane power in the mind of all D'tesh, by becoming a Lich. Or you worship Lord D'Tesh as if we was a god. Give them a building you get at some point between Iron Working and Mithril Working that's called "Abbey of the Hand of D'Tesh" (It's only purpose for being created would be a +2 to total city population) and change the Unit "Hand of D'Tesh" to an Undead Unit, and make it so only Disciple Unitcombat of level 8 or higher can upgrade to them. The Lore then becomes that Lord D'Tesh has mastered undead and all things necromantic. Those humans that follow him either study the arcane in an attempt to be as powerful as him (and eventually undead) or they worship him hoping to be those selected to be reborn in his image. Thus the Abbey of the Hand of D'Tesh is where only those who show high enough fervor in their worship of D'Tesh and are obviously more useful as something besides a mindless wretched are "gifted" with the gift of Undeath by Lord D'Tesh's Council of Four.

Or not, just that line where you mentioned that this tech line had nothing to offer to the D'Tesh as a whole struck me as odd, if you give them a building that adds to Pop in each city, adds more Lore to the Civ, and gives them strong units seemed kinda balance at that point. But that's just me, just my suggestion, it is your mod, just trying to make an awesome game more awesome.

-Moosh

There are a few things wrong with your understanding of D'tesh's lore, there.



There are no humans that follow D'tesh. None. Any followers are immediately made into undead, under his control.
Lord D'tesh has already mastered all things Necromantic. He controls the Opalus Mortis; This is essentially a bottomless well of necromantic energy. It gives him as much, if not more, power over the sphere of death as Arawn; However, it also affects him strongly, sapping his energy/willpower/etc over time. That is the main reason he generally does not leave his Spire anymore.
Again, no non-undead. The Hand of D'tesh is already an undead unit.

Besides that... I don't want to do that. The 'disciple' unit line (rightfully Polearms, but that's not in atm) will not be on the melee line. They will be on a separate line of techs. However, that will all have to wait for 1.5, while the D'tesh needed a defensive unit now.

odalrick
Jul 11, 2010, 01:20 PM
That would be the more difficult, better way, yes. :lol:


Well, if you're happy with easy and buggy code, the current behaviour is the easiest of all.

Even before I post this I realize I probably shouldn't post it. It's nitpicking and belligerent. I'm going to anyway, and for that I apologize. I blame the weather.

Moosh
Jul 11, 2010, 01:24 PM
You're right, I miss read something crucial, forgive me insolence.

-Moosh

Sjru
Jul 11, 2010, 02:42 PM
I was just wondering, if in the next version, the clan peace with Bhall would be changed.
Because the AI always has peace with bhall regardless of score, and currently, demons and animals are more dangerous than the barbarians, so, can you remove that feature that make Bhall declare war on you if you pass your rivals a bit?
It also makes Rantine less useful.

Cyrusfan
Jul 11, 2010, 05:44 PM
One last request for Scions and then I'll give it up. As their methods of achieving Reborn are for the most part unreliable (yes, you can build them *eventually* but I'm closing in on that tech and my capital is still the only city that's really good for much of anything-which also means I can't really afford to take the time to build Awakened), I'm finding Pelemoc's Subversion ability to be my method of choice. Except for that 25% chance of immediate war. It's probably a personal failing of mine, but I'm pretty sorely tempted to treat that like the dungeons near my capitol in the early going and save cheat like crazy (yes, I know about Succor, and if I ever see a computer city with unhealthiness I'll use it).

I was thinking about what might a) soothe my conscience and b) not completely break the game and what I came up with is the following. When he casts Subversion, he gets held as if casting a multiturn spell. This effect has an increasing chance each turn of succeeding at the rates 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, and 25%). If it succeeds, it ends on that turn. If it fails after the fifth turn, you take a -1 diplomatic penalty with the target civ (the outright war declaration seems excessive since he seems to be talking folks into emigration rather than outright abduction). The probability of success is low enough to dissuade save cheating and there is still a reasonable chance of failure overall. Alternatively, you could let him continue for 20 turns, and take the diplomatic hit after the 10th, 15th, and 20th turns as well.

Valkrionn
Jul 11, 2010, 06:39 PM
Well, if you're happy with easy and buggy code, the current behaviour is the easiest of all.

Even before I post this I realize I probably shouldn't post it. It's nitpicking and belligerent. I'm going to anyway, and for that I apologize. I blame the weather.

Heh. That is a very true statement. :p

Honestly, I like the right method, was just saying it was slightly more complex. :lol:

You're right, I miss read something crucial, forgive me insolence.

-Moosh

No need to apologize, I just wanted to say why I didn't do anything like that (thought about adding a few buildings on that line... Or the Recon line). The main reasons are:


Arcane should be important even for non-Arcane D'teshi leaders (Thanatos and Vanedis)
The Divine setup is temporary. They just need the defenders now, while we won't be ready for the base units until 1.5.

Suggestions are always good, and we've gotten lots of ideas from them. :goodjob:

I was just wondering, if in the next version, the clan peace with Bhall would be changed.
Because the AI always has peace with bhall regardless of score, and currently, demons and animals are more dangerous than the barbarians, so, can you remove that feature that make Bhall declare war on you if you pass your rivals a bit?
It also makes Rantine less useful.

It's not 'pass a bit', it's pass by 50% or more.

That said, I'd like to eventually tie it to alignment. Move away from Chaotic alignment, and they'll start to turn on you. Not until BA is better implemented, though.

One last request for Scions and then I'll give it up. As their methods of achieving Reborn are for the most part unreliable (yes, you can build them *eventually* but I'm closing in on that tech and my capital is still the only city that's really good for much of anything-which also means I can't really afford to take the time to build Awakened), I'm finding Pelemoc's Subversion ability to be my method of choice. Except for that 25% chance of immediate war. It's probably a personal failing of mine, but I'm pretty sorely tempted to treat that like the dungeons near my capitol in the early going and save cheat like crazy (yes, I know about Succor, and if I ever see a computer city with unhealthiness I'll use it).

I was thinking about what might a) soothe my conscience and b) not completely break the game and what I came up with is the following. When he casts Subversion, he gets held as if casting a multiturn spell. This effect has an increasing chance each turn of succeeding at the rates 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, and 25%). If it succeeds, it ends on that turn. If it fails after the fifth turn, you take a -1 diplomatic penalty with the target civ (the outright war declaration seems excessive since he seems to be talking folks into emigration rather than outright abduction). The probability of success is low enough to dissuade save cheating and there is still a reasonable chance of failure overall. Alternatively, you could let him continue for 20 turns, and take the diplomatic hit after the 10th, 15th, and 20th turns as well.

I just don't have time for the Scions this patch. Too much else to finish up, trying to wrap it up quickly. I'm planning to revert the Priest mechanics to the old version, though... Was simpler than the current one, and IMO better.

Cyrusfan
Jul 11, 2010, 07:33 PM
<Must resist urge to annoyingly press for release date>
Okay so long as it's on a post-it note somewhere for future reference.

As to the old priest mechanic, I didn't see the first version so I'm guessing based on other comments: They'll be Strength 5 or 6 everywhere and only spawn Reborn (assuming the slavery civic isn't in play)?

Valkrionn
Jul 11, 2010, 08:00 PM
<Must resist urge to annoyingly press for release date>
Okay so long as it's on a post-it note somewhere for future reference.

As to the old priest mechanic, I didn't see the first version so I'm guessing based on other comments: They'll be Strength 5 or 6 everywhere and only spawn Reborn (assuming the slavery civic isn't in play)?

All that's left: Fix a bug with the Sidar, rebalance White Hand, few (very small) tweaks to finish for the Sheaim, and then the new Hinterlands barbarian system, which I'm working on finishing now. And merging some of Opera's work, now that she's back from her move.

There are a few features that have been pushed back to a later, small patch... For example, xUPT or the Orbis music. They are not partially implemented or balance-related, so we can release without them for now.


Back to the Scions: Pretty much, yes. ;)

odalrick
Jul 12, 2010, 05:32 AM
yes, I know about Succor, and if I ever see a computer city with unhealthiness I'll use it).

I think making the AI less deathly afraid of :yuck: would solve a lot of problems.

:yuck: isn't bad, it a symptom of doing well. It means you have a lot of :food: and enough population to use it. Sure, you could do better by building some health buildings or trading for resources, but it seems like the AI goes into full paranoia mode the instant it gets 1:yuck: in a single city anywhere.

One thing you should never do is stop growth just because you have some :yuck:, I have no idea why that button is there.

I know something is being done with health. Let's hope this shortcoming is addressed.

Valkrionn
Jul 12, 2010, 07:05 AM
Yep. Something is being done with health. :lol:

arcticnightwolf
Jul 12, 2010, 07:35 AM
well ... i found a city with 3+ unhealthness ... usually capital cities ...

(( it was in pre-AI-flavor-rework svn version of RifE, so it might be different ))

IlikeTanks
Jul 12, 2010, 02:23 PM
First-Awesome mod, play it everyday. Even have a D&D campaign for it.
Now the ideas. A) Battlemage sucks.. sorry but you're going to have to kill 50 billion guys to gets omnipotent this way. Not sure if possible, but can you make it so that they get xp for magic kills instead?
B) Nuke spell :) every civ game has a nuke. why not give a mage who achieves destroyer status something like Apocolypse from the sky? (lvl 9 necro, Book of Vile darkness)

inuyashasama
Jul 12, 2010, 02:32 PM
Turning the entire world into hell > nuke spell

Valkrionn
Jul 12, 2010, 02:39 PM
First-Awesome mod, play it everyday. Even have a D&D campaign for it.
Now the ideas. A) Battlemage sucks.. sorry but you're going to have to kill 50 billion guys to gets omnipotent this way. Not sure if possible, but can you make it so that they get xp for magic kills instead?
B) Nuke spell :) every civ game has a nuke. why not give a mage who achieves destroyer status something like Apocolypse from the sky? (lvl 9 necro, Book of Vile darkness)

A DnD campaign? Interesting. ;)


Just wait for 1.4. ;)
Nope. Only way that would work would as a spell unlocked by the Tower of Mastery if the victory is off.

IlikeTanks
Jul 12, 2010, 02:56 PM
Of course this is DnD 3.5, i dont play world of Dnd (4.0). All the races have there own bonus's, calabim only have a 3 lvl adjustment for vampire.. so on..... But....

hell terrain only destroys terrain, it doesnt level buildings and kill half the city :) And i will wait till 1.4 to see if my favourite race, the amurites, get a better archmage. Oh one more idea, i forgot if its already in, but is there a sun spell that does extra bonus to the undead?

Valkrionn
Jul 12, 2010, 03:02 PM
Would be interesting to see the rule set. ;)

Oh, the 1.4 thing isn't just for the Amurites. It's for magic as a whole.

No, but there is a Life spell.

Sjru
Jul 12, 2010, 07:03 PM
Talking about magic, will you redo the Master of creation?
33% miscast chance for extra spell is too much (3.3 times out of 10), leaving your archmage useless for up to 10 turns. And worse, the mastery of creation comes automatically, so you can't avoid it if you want birth spell. Please change it to something else.

Valkrionn
Jul 12, 2010, 07:23 PM
Yes, we will be. When I implemented it I hadn't known about the miscast penalty; I'd thought it just prevented that single cast from working.

It will be vastly different in 1.4.

IlikeTanks
Jul 13, 2010, 10:23 AM
here's a question... is it possible to have it that cities can move? (flying cities?) Cause then you can have a Netheril type nation :) Oh, i'll send you our RifE DnD rule sheet Valk.

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 10:37 AM
It's not possible to have cities that move... YET*.

However, that is planned for one already existing civ, and it will not be an aerial city. ;)


*Disclaimer: Totally is, just a massive amount of work involving python and creating a new city, cloning the name, buildings, trade routes, assigned specialists, etc....

IlikeTanks
Jul 13, 2010, 11:06 AM
Sigh... no nether empire. But not aerial, you dont mean that wierd city from FF6 do you?

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 11:15 AM
What? No. There is a far simpler explanation if you think about it. :p

Trappisto
Jul 13, 2010, 11:26 AM
...Must be Harmats civ right?
...Or poss lanun floating city
...mechanos on rails
...nomadic chislev...

hmm interesting

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 11:31 AM
Actually, one of those was correct. Which one? Won't say. :lol:

IlikeTanks
Jul 13, 2010, 12:46 PM
Hmm.. well i dont actaully play as any of those civs :) But since the Chislev are the most lame, its them.

inuyashasama
Jul 13, 2010, 12:52 PM
As soon as I saw this, I figured it would be a nomadic type city - the Chislev in other words. An aerial civ would be so cool, but it would look kind of tacky with the cities on the ground.

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 01:59 PM
Chislev are getting something, yes. This? Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it will come in 1.4.

Torugu
Jul 13, 2010, 02:08 PM
You said "no more plains Indians" so I doubt they'll get to be nomadic + if it's so much work and 1.4 is supposed to come out relatively soon after 1.3 that makes it even more unlikely.

That leaves 3 alternatives:

...Must be Harmats civ right?
...Or poss lanun floating city
...mechanos on rails

Mechanos seems unlikely and my gut feeling is that it won't be the Lanun so my money is oon those "Harmats". Don't actually know what that is though. (Can you eat it? Is it tasty? :D )

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 02:15 PM
Harmat is the Austrin hero.

TC01
Jul 13, 2010, 02:18 PM
Definitely the Austrin, then. I mean, their whole civilization's priniciple is that they like to wander around and not settle down. So wandering cities would fit them perfectly!

Plus, they worship Tali (wind/air), so lorewise it makes sense that a civilization related to Tali would be able to move their cities around.


An unrelated question: will the Bezeri be in 1.3 or 1.4 or even later? I know, you've probably answered this before, but I don't feel like looking back through around 10-20 pages of each stickied thread.

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 02:21 PM
Definitely the Austrin, then. I mean, their whole civilization's priniciple is that they like to wander around and not settle down. So wandering cities would fit them perfectly!

Plus, they worship Tali (wind/air), so lorewise it makes sense that a civilization related to Tali would be able to move their cities around.


An unrelated question: will the Bezeri be in 1.3 or 1.4 or even later? I know, you've probably answered this before, but I don't feel like looking back through around 10-20 pages of each stickied thread.

I won't say which civ. I will say though: There will be no flying or rolling cities. ;)

Bezeri will be later. Basically, we've decided to implement general mechanics before adding new civs (a few exceptions, but the Bezeri won't be one of them; They require massive amounts of work for it).

Torugu
Jul 13, 2010, 02:22 PM
The Austrin still seem like the most likely candidate.

Unless you just told us that they'd be swimming. ;)

Oranos
Jul 13, 2010, 07:40 PM
Somehow it doesn't seem to fit the Austrin, at least in my eyes. Their cities are supposed to be few and far between, but stationary. Supply outposts, if you will. But I don't recall him saying that all the cities would be nomadic, so who knows. He did say no rolling cities, which could indicate no land based nomadic cities at all.

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 07:46 PM
No, regardless of who gets it the civ will never be fully nomadic; There will be a limited number that can be mobile at once.

Cyrusfan
Jul 13, 2010, 09:01 PM
Is there a reason you'd want multiple cities mobile? I mean it sounds neat, but as improvements presumably wouldn't move, I'm not sure what the point of moving lots of cities over significant distances would be. I'd be happy if I could move one city at a time one tile in any direction to get them on the coast or to properly align their workable areas.

Do you have any plans for mountains? The Khazad and Jotnar can allegedly use them, but since you can't build anything on them, the city AI won't assign population to them (yes, I know it's an art issue, and yes I know one Khazad leader gives them an extra ;hammer; ). I also know I can just reduce them in worldbuilder, but I was wondering if you might do something in game to address them. Maybe a high level earth spell that reduces them to hills, or a combination earth/fire spell that does that plus summons something buffer than an earth elemental?

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 10:46 PM
Is there a reason you'd want multiple cities mobile? I mean it sounds neat, but as improvements presumably wouldn't move, I'm not sure what the point of moving lots of cities over significant distances would be. I'd be happy if I could move one city at a time one tile in any direction to get them on the coast or to properly align their workable areas.

Do you have any plans for mountains? The Khazad and Jotnar can allegedly use them, but since you can't build anything on them, the city AI won't assign population to them (yes, I know it's an art issue, and yes I know one Khazad leader gives them an extra ;hammer; ). I also know I can just reduce them in worldbuilder, but I was wondering if you might do something in game to address them. Maybe a high level earth spell that reduces them to hills, or a combination earth/fire spell that does that plus summons something buffer than an earth elemental?

That would give away the specifics of it, so I won't say. ;)

Possible. Haven't really thought of it, though.

sinner003
Jul 13, 2010, 10:48 PM
the option for a single mobile city for different civs might be interesting...
like elves can have a city built inside a massive, moving tree, like in the elder scrolls, or a massive floating, drifting port for the lanun...or something classic, like a city on the back of a giant eagle or turtle, a la golden axe...

Valkrionn
Jul 13, 2010, 10:57 PM
Only one civ will have it.

IlikeTanks
Jul 14, 2010, 01:52 PM
Alright alright, fair enough. No nether flying cities, no apocolypse from the sky... What about
a disintegrate spell or a higher lvl block shield for force mana? Not much use for it as it stands :)

Sjru
Jul 14, 2010, 04:47 PM
That could be nice, instead of the wall of force as a building, add it as a tile feature or something, like the lvl requeriment for Brigit, so you can actually use the wall of force with your stack.

legowarrior
Jul 14, 2010, 07:06 PM
I'm playing a game with the Mechanos, and it is going okay, but I've been spoiled by playing the Mazatl. I keep having to run my priest around and change the terrain to something better, especially when the snow starts. My suggestions, to lower the micromanagement would be a cool ritual or building that would alter the terrain slightly in the radius of the city. You could have a different ritual for each effect. Each ritual has a one time effect.

Valkrionn
Jul 14, 2010, 07:09 PM
That's already pretty much planned; Not rituals, but city spells. Wait for 1.4.

legowarrior
Jul 14, 2010, 08:29 PM
I'd almost think you were reading my mind if it wasn't for the fact that some of this must have been planned in advance.

Wodan
Jul 15, 2010, 06:05 AM
I'd almost think you were reading my mind if it wasn't for the fact that some of this must have been planned in advance.

If you're going to grant telepathic powers then what's the trouble of a little temporal displacement? :smoke:

edit: actually, I suppose the one could be accomplished with simple enhancement of brain function while the other would require either advanced knowledge of hyperdimensional physics or else the ability to manipulate spacetime. So I guess I do see your point, after all.

IlikeTanks
Jul 15, 2010, 10:51 AM
Just a quick question, other then the fact it would destroy the hippus, why arent there pikeman/spearmen in the game? (50% against mounted)

lemonjelly
Jul 15, 2010, 10:53 AM
Because, if there's one thing Valkrionn cares about the most, its the welfare of little animated horsemen.

Meldon
Jul 15, 2010, 11:08 AM
I think they've had it too good for too long.

Valkrionn
Jul 15, 2010, 11:15 AM
Just a quick question, other then the fact it would destroy the hippus, why arent there pikeman/spearmen in the game? (50% against mounted)

Wait for 1.5, that's why. :lol:

The current unitlines are from FfH; They were designed by the FfH team, we just inherited them. in 1.5, we will be redesigning unitlines... Only around 6 new units altogether, but I think we have at least 14 unitcombats... Polearms will be one of those, split out from melee. That is actually what the new D'teshi defensive units will be.

While that sounds like a lot, each one has a specific job. For polearms, that is anti-cavalry and stack defense... And you will want them with your mages. :mischief:

Grey Fox
Jul 15, 2010, 11:16 AM
Pikemen will be part of the unit pass.