Making this post to give people a place to provide ideas for/request new features, and give feedback on the changes we've made so far. If we like the ideas, I'll add them to this first post. :p


Planned Features:


White Hand. Needs music, improvement art.
New civ, Bezeri. Detailed here.
New Mechanos leader, based off of Jabie's High Techpriest.

Spiritual/Organized
Evil, but does not consider himself so. Will do whatever it takes to rid the world of the twin 'Evils' of Magic and the Gods, all in the name of what's 'Good' for the future of man.
Gains the Fallow trait as the game progresses, at some tech along the machinery line.
Will be able to 'build' population... Will be via a special buildorder, and will NOT be transferable between cities. Thinking of setting the cost low, but increasing cost with each pop-point in a city.


New Resources.

Current ideas...

Coal

Coal + Iron = Steel, the new tier 3 metal. Mithril will be bumped up a tier, and made stronger and more rare.


Potato

Want some more Farm resources, mainly.


Lemon

We don't actually have any fruits, after all.


Olives
Apple

Ditto for both of these.


Duskwood

Increases building speed, provides extra strength to Archery units.


Hemlock

Adds extra strength to Recon units.




Possible ideas...

Tea

Luxury

Not sure we need this, I just like Tea. :lol:




Salt

Increases food saved after growth

Not sure this one is possible, or it would be in the first list.




Spices

Desert resource, as they only have Incense, Gold, and I believe Reagents. (And Camels if you're Malakim)

This would essentially be another commerce resource, like all other desert resources. Main reason it's only a 'possible'.




Silver

Luxury

Again, not needed, but we do have gold, might as well have silver. :p




New Agrarianism Mechanic

Could be made it so that organic resources (animals, grains, plantation crops, seafood) will spread twice as fast - maybe 1 in 750 with Agrarianism, and 1 in 1500 without) along with the +1 food to farms - and add that to pastures as well - but give it a 20% malus to production and gold produced... maybe even just a 10% malus will be enough to balance it.

Top SecretTM Feature. Yes, there is indeed another. :cool:



Possible Features



Possibly bring in Cypher's Hinterlands game option.
Merge in Sephi's (vastly) improved Wild Mana, along with the arcane AI tweaks.
Religious tweaks
Archery changes
Early Arcane Units - Follow up post.
Overseer Unit. Slave Commander, increases their workrate.
Steal Opera's Peaceful trait.
Hobbit resource? :lol:





Updated as of post 207.

i did some short brainstorming :)

there are some civs already that are nature-friendly like ljos and doviello (mby svart)

but there's no civ in who would rather leave nature untouched than build stuff in/on it.

how about a civ that does not use any improvement except for a nature preservation improvement (national parklike)

they would gain health and happyness through parks and they would not work any tiles because they dont exploit their surroundings.

instead they would focus entirely on specialists. every citizen should then produce food or there should be buildings providing food like the granary or smokehouse because they wouldnt need the health bonus.

or make every tile provide zero food on default and all ressources grant their boni then (so pig would be 4 food) to be able to work tiles before u get specialist buildings

they could aswell focus on great persons then and have a major bonus on them (e.g. merchant 3-5 food 8-12 gold or so)

units would be close to nature of course. mby mutated or evolved from plants/animals or stuff. or is this too strange even for ffh?

just wanted to share this thought

huhuhuhuhuhuhuh[twitchy, gleeful smile, with drool on chin]

i did some short brainstorming :)

there are some civs already that are nature-friendly like ljos and doviello (mby svart)

but there's no civ in who would rather leave nature untouched than build stuff in/on it.

how about a civ that does not use any improvement except for a nature preservation improvement (national parklike)

they would gain health and happyness through parks and they would not work any tiles because they dont exploit their surroundings.

instead they would focus entirely on specialists. every citizen should then produce food or there should be buildings providing food like the granary or smokehouse because they wouldnt need the health bonus.

or make every tile provide zero food on default and all ressources grant their boni then (so pig would be 4 food) to be able to work tiles before u get specialist buildings

they could aswell focus on great persons then and have a major bonus on them (e.g. merchant 3-5 food 8-12 gold or so)

units would be close to nature of course. mby mutated or evolved from plants/animals or stuff. or is this too strange even for ffh?

just wanted to share this thought
A fairly simple way to do that is to make them Fallow but not give any way of adding population, then base everything off of things that provide free specialists. Then you don't have to worry about providing alternate sources of health, happiness, or food. Plus, their cities will stay looking small and unobtrusive.

I advise against a 'park' improvement, though. Not having any improvements in their territory means you have that terrain slot open for design space, allowing them to do interesting thing with their terrain.

Are you envisioning a human civilization that lives in harmony with nature or a completely primordial/elemental race? Either way, I like the idea.

If you're serious about the idea, this seems worthy of starting a new thread.

A random thought. It'd be nice to see some sort of huge cannon for mechanos/khazad. It would have a high hammer cost, and be permanantly held once built, so mainly defensive, but would have an extremely long range. maybe 10 tiles or so, and a lot of strength.

I just love artillery :D


Also, I'd love to play Grigori just so I could build one in Junon somehow.

A random thought. It'd be nice to see some sort of huge cannon for mechanos/khazad. It would have a high hammer cost, and be permanantly held once built, so mainly defensive, but would have an extremely long range. maybe 10 tiles or so, and a lot of strength.

I just love artillery :D


Also, I'd love to play Grigori just so I could build one in Junon somehow.

You could also make it a unit cap of four and nerf it slightly, so you can use them in your core/biggest cities as defense, instead of just one city.

as i said it was just a thougt.

i was thinking about what mechanisms are not in ff yet concerning civ and the nature theme suits quite well for a non-improving civilization.

as "improvement" one could use animal dens but not providing your civ with animals but cerunnos.

trap improvements could be nice aswell. if a unit enters the field it gets trapped or damaged or control of the unit could switch or the unit could turn barbarian (enraged) or could be polymorphed to an animal.

hmm.

im already drifting away from a nature civ to a recon/assassin civ :P

im not sure if i could stick to one idea to finish it.
also ive no hint in modding yet (im just about to start modding and am not sure if to begin with such a difficult task ^^)

Actually, I already had an idea for a civ like that. Holding off until Xienwolf finishes his aspect system... They'll be heavy into that. Will be either Fallow, or Production-Fallow... Haven't decided. But basically, plant-people. :lol:

As for the Mechanos/Khazad Cannon, the Mechanos are getting something like that with the fort. The Khazad could maybe auto-spawn a defensive unit in any Palace city? This would be the Capital, Winter Palace, Bone Palace, and the other one. Forget all the names. :lol: Would let you defend your best cities.

New Mechanos fort, and railroad route to compensate for the loss of Obsidian Gates.

Mechanos Fort Commanders of sufficient level will be able to upgrade, literally becoming the fort. High defense, high ranged strength, auto-sanctify.
The new fort will technically be a unit, but is only able to move on railroad tiles. Will need to merge in zRoutes to accomplish this.
Essentially, this 'unit' will be a mobile fortress, able to provide cover and support for your army, and will automatically Sanctify as it does so. I'm picturing a fast moving swarm of workers going out ahead, constructing the route, and the fort moving up onto the tile.... :satan: In order to balance it, this unit WILL be able to be killed, and will grant a rather large sum of money to whoever does so.



This is an interesting idea but the FFurther Mechs are very OP already, almost as much as Jotnar.. Not sure they really need another super-unit. Are these forts going to be limited somehow. and are all Mechanos units able to use railroads? What level does the fort commander require to upgrade? And does creating it destroy the fort it spawned on - curious as to that because you said it WILL be able to be killed as if it was going to be invincible before! XD

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'd still like to see Orbis imperial roads in for everyone :(

@above: I'd say give it to Luchiurp too. But I think Kirby's idea was more for a giant, extremely long-range cannon just for the sake of having one, as ooposed to saying Khazad really need more for city defense. Would make a neat Dwarf-only world unit.

If it's really just for the sake of having a giant canon in the game, why not make it a game option, give one to everybody, and make each one have a civ-specific appearance/theme (but the same mechanics). It would be a neat use for some of the more crazy theme ideas that occasionally come up. Like:
Khazad - Earthquake generator
Mechanos - Megacannon
Hippus - Herd of horses that 'stampedes' for its ranged attack
Amurites - Calls meteors
Austrin - Lightning cannon
Balseraphs - Rain of herring
Malakim - Solar ray

something of this nature for every civ seems alittle extreme. Perhaps for every religion

it could be the Ordo Machinarum Super Unit, similar to the Mythril Golem and Meshabber of Dis.

I've always thought that the other religions could do with some massive creatures too...

Balseraphs - Rain of herring



That is so apropriate:lol:

This is an interesting idea but the FFurther Mechs are very OP already, almost as much as Jotnar.. Not sure they really need another super-unit. Are these forts going to be limited somehow. and are all Mechanos units able to use railroads? What level does the fort commander require to upgrade? And does creating it destroy the fort it spawned on - curious as to that because you said it WILL be able to be killed as if it was going to be invincible before! XD

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'd still like to see Orbis imperial roads in for everyone :(

@above: I'd say give it to Luchiurp too. But I think Kirby's idea was more for a giant, extremely long-range cannon just for the sake of having one, as ooposed to saying Khazad really need more for city defense. Would make a neat Dwarf-only world unit.

The forts will need a high level fort commander... Say level 12. Shouldn't be a common occurrence, self-limiting. It does indeed destroy the fort, so you'd go from a citadel to nothing... Can rebuild, but it'll take a few hundred turns to get back.

All Mechanos units will be able to use railroads... But again, very late game. Same as the Gates on the arcane line... Can be used more widely than the gates, but can't get you nearly as far, so I think it's fine. I don't particularly like the Imperial Roads for FF, honestly... With an expanded tech tree I could see it, but not with the current one.

If it's really just for the sake of having a giant canon in the game, why not make it a game option, give one to everybody, and make each one have a civ-specific appearance/theme (but the same mechanics). It would be a neat use for some of the more crazy theme ideas that occasionally come up. Like:
Khazad - Earthquake generator
Mechanos - Megacannon
Hippus - Herd of horses that 'stampedes' for its ranged attack
Amurites - Calls meteors
Austrin - Lightning cannon
Balseraphs - Rain of herring
Malakim - Solar ray

Would be funny, but not worth it, really. :lol:

something of this nature for every civ seems alittle extreme. Perhaps for every religion

it could be the Ordo Machinarum Super Unit, similar to the Mythril Golem and Meshabber of Dis.

I've always thought that the other religions could do with some massive creatures too...

Hmm... That could be interesting too. Will have to think about it. :lol:

Well, then you'll need to make sure that Fortress Commanders can get Forfite Promotion, or what ever it's called, because Fort Commanders don't get enought promotions to make lvl 12.

They will have enough soon. ;)

The mechanos Goliath unit already fills the super unit role in my opinion. With tanks and any amount of refined mana, lategame mechanos are practically unstopable. For instance, with a standard map, I started with about 4 mana nodes which I snatched up quick. I rushed writing, and by the time other civs had researched iron working, I was pumping out str 24 tanks and I could afford to upgrade them all with blitz, mobility, and the siege str upgrade because I was making so much damn cash. I gotta start playing at higher than noble difficulty...

Umm, Valk, maybe Steam Tanks sould be limited. Maybe no more then, say ten? They can easily get more then 20 stregth, and much more power with a Master Siege smith.

The refined affinity is the main culprit really. It's quite easy to be running around with str 12 blimps (including the swordy naval promotion, which they really should not be able to access) while everyone else is using axemen and such, with a mere 4 nodes + palace mana. Really need partial affinity (i know that's being worked on, yes) or to have it limited to way fewer units and ideally a signifigant reduction in base strength as well, forcing them to rely on capturing nodes to get the units so strong.

In the 2 mech' games I've played I never even bothered to research past blimps.. why bother with tanks when you get str 12+ flyers that can haul their own siege engines, especially since no melee/archers get a promotion to counter naval units afaik.

edit: 10 seems extemely high for tanks to me. Why not 4 max like all the other national units? Blimps/Zeppelins should be on that list too.

Well the main, thing with the mechanos is that they get a massive hammer boost with most of thier stuff, and a research boost with each additional refined mana. This is a massive advantage, and practically unbeatable if they aren't nerfed in some way.

Perhaps with each additional refined mana, you get +1:yuck: or perhaps -1:food: that way it balances the gain.

Being able to produce tanks at 1/per at a city seems OP even with a # cap.

edit: you could even ascribe it to the radiation given off by the refined mana (from the civopedia entry).

Perhaps with each additional refined mana, you get +1:yuck:


I really like this idea, actually. In the mid-lategame, I usually had about 7 or so refined mana. having an extra 7 :yuck: in every city would be a big penalty, but not an insurmountable one.

I really like this idea, actually. In the mid-lategame, I usually had about 7 or so refined mana. having an extra 7 :yuck: in every city would be a big penalty, but not an insurmountable one.

I agree that a penalty would help balance things, but I'd like to see something other than unhealth. The Mechanos already have several additional sources of unhealth and are lacking many of the normal health sources to fight it (Life mana, Growth, Ancient Forests, Temples of Leaves).
What about "refueling costs" (significantly increased maintenance) for units outside their borders that have refined mana affinity?

When I was playing mechanos, I was not hurting for money. It may be my playstyle as I usually use diplomacy until midgame to avoid war until I can build up some economy.

My point however, is that reducing the money flow of a civ on the warpath isn't really that detrimental. With the Mechanos they could simply build a massive army of tanks, steamroll into an enemy civ, and conquer them before the maintainance really kicks in.

With unhealth you're actually presented with a choice: either you can build lot's of low power mecha units with low research, or you can super power the mech units at the cost of drastically reducing city pop, but with faster rsearch.

Or perhaps (or as well), Refined Mana affinity could provide a typed damage; not one of the pre-existing ones, but a new type, to which certain units (Auric, dragons, and high-tier disciple units, for instance) would be resistant to. (For Auric, I'd argue for outright immunity.)

Maybe this isn't the space for this post, or perhaps it is...

I'd like to see a general Religion overhaul. I think the game is in sore need of it...I'd be willing to chip in where I can (xml, maybe python though I haven't even looked at a patch of py code yet).

Anyways.

Some religions have a secondary tech that grants them a secondary wonder (RoK), some have multiple heroes while others have 1 (actually now that I type that...I'll have to look up the pedia entries for Maros, Arthedain, Yvain etc to see if they are civ heroes or religious heroes). Some have single wonders that grants the builder a secondary use other than the normal religious wonder (CoE, Emp).

I just like to see them all balanced a bit more.

Essentially, I'd like to see them all brought up to RoK level. Meaning a secondary tech, a secondary wonder and perhaps a second hero. All of them should grant a civic (guardian of nature, arete) etc...you can see where I'm going with this.

CoE probably needs the most work, in terms of bringing that religion up to speed with abilites and miracles that mimic divine abilities (healing, curing disease etc) and it would be nice to see some sort of espionage line fleshed out. A temple replacement ( as a tavern? a brothel?) with a priest type (lady of the house?) who can, for a price, perform some of these functions.

They'd need some sort of travelling triage medic as well, who doesn't heal through magic, but requires resources to heal (cotton for bandages for instance, or reagents to use like Athealas in Lord of the Rings, a healing plant to place on wounds. Copper for scissors? Heh.).

Anyways, there is a ton of room for improvement and balance for some of the religions, though I could see both Fotl and Rok getting a slight nerf to bring them down a bit.

Umm, Valk, maybe Steam Tanks should be limited. Maybe no more then, say ten? They can easily get more then 20 strength, and much more power with a Master Siege smith.

Planning on it. They were supposed to be, but I left it off... Think a cap at 4 will work.

The refined affinity is the main culprit really. It's quite easy to be running around with str 12 blimps (including the swordy naval promotion, which they really should not be able to access) while everyone else is using axemen and such, with a mere 4 nodes + palace mana. Really need partial affinity (i know that's being worked on, yes) or to have it limited to way fewer units and ideally a signifigant reduction in base strength as well, forcing them to rely on capturing nodes to get the units so strong.

In the 2 mech' games I've played I never even bothered to research past blimps.. why bother with tanks when you get str 12+ flyers that can haul their own siege engines, especially since no melee/archers get a promotion to counter naval units afaik.

edit: 10 seems extemely high for tanks to me. Why not 4 max like all the other national units? Blimps/Zeppelins should be on that list too.

I think that for now, I'm going to do something rather drastic. :lol: Thanks to the Fort Commanders, I already loop all units each turn... Might as well expand that slightly for the Mechanos, check for the number of Refined Mana, check for isMechanical, and then apply a percentage bonus. Say 5% strength, or 10% ranged strength if I can do that. So all units that currently get strength from the mana, will still gain strength. It's just reduced, and is not multiplied by other promotions quite as easily.

Well the main, thing with the mechanos is that they get a massive hammer boost with most of thier stuff, and a research boost with each additional refined mana. This is a massive advantage, and practically unbeatable if they aren't nerfed in some way.

Perhaps with each additional refined mana, you get +1:yuck: or perhaps -1:food: that way it balances the gain.

Being able to produce tanks at 1/per at a city seems OP even with a # cap.

edit: you could even ascribe it to the radiation given off by the refined mana (from the civopedia entry).

I think dropping strength like I plan should be enough... If not, I think unhealth would work quite well.

Maybe this isn't the space for this post, or perhaps it is...

I'd like to see a general Religion overhaul. I think the game is in sore need of it...I'd be willing to chip in where I can (xml, maybe python though I haven't even looked at a patch of py code yet).

Anyways.

Some religions have a secondary tech that grants them a secondary wonder (RoK), some have multiple heroes while others have 1 (actually now that I type that...I'll have to look up the pedia entries for Maros, Arthedain, Yvain etc to see if they are civ heroes or religious heroes). Some have single wonders that grants the builder a secondary use other than the normal religious wonder (CoE, Emp).

I just like to see them all balanced a bit more.

Essentially, I'd like to see them all brought up to RoK level. Meaning a secondary tech, a secondary wonder and perhaps a second hero. All of them should grant a civic (guardian of nature, arete) etc...you can see where I'm going with this.

CoE probably needs the most work, in terms of bringing that religion up to speed with abilites and miracles that mimic divine abilities (healing, curing disease etc) and it would be nice to see some sort of espionage line fleshed out. A temple replacement ( as a tavern? a brothel?) with a priest type (lady of the house?) who can, for a price, perform some of these functions.

They'd need some sort of travelling triage medic as well, who doesn't heal through magic, but requires resources to heal (cotton for bandages for instance, or reagents to use like Athealas in Lord of the Rings, a healing plant to place on wounds. Copper for scissors? Heh.).

Anyways, there is a ton of room for improvement and balance for some of the religions, though I could see both Fotl and Rok getting a slight nerf to bring them down a bit.

From what Kael has said, the religions were not meant to be balanced that way. They have different strengths, and different effects. RoK is perfect for money, AV is science, so on... Some have more heroes, some have more passive effects. The only aspect of the religions I really want to work on is Civics, and healing for Esus... Although Esus will not get a civic. It's supposed to be hidden.:lol:

From what Kael has said, the religions were not meant to be balanced that way.

Stop right there!

This is YOUR mod, remember. Kael is a very knowledgeable person, but he has his own mod, and this one is yours. While it's always good to take advice from the more experienced, don't let your choices be limited by how they say things should be.

Now, if you don't want to do religions, or don't have time, that's cool. But don't hold off on doing something because someone else said so.

Besides, you're already ignoring one of his key design principles. Remember that thing I tried to talk you out of?

I only mentioned it because this is one place I agree with him. :lol:

If all the religions are equal, there is no choice involved. I'd rather have religions that are better under some circumstances and worse under others, like they are now.

What was it that you tried to talk me out of? I can't remember. :lol:

I agree. a world where all religions are the same would be boring. You have to play to your strengths, or in some cases delibribrately build up a weakness just to be different.

On religions...I place most of them from time to time, depending on what I'm trying to do. That to me is a good indication of strong design work.


That being said...OO, Empyrean, and COE are the ones I use the least. Of those I think the first is a matter of personal taste. Empyrean could really stand to have a stronger flavor...right now it smells like "generic white hats" to me. COE...needs a touch of help. Not a civic (heck, undercouncil is basically their civic already) or priests...but more medieval mafia flavor.

Having parallel capabilities wouldn't make religions the same. Even if OO gets a 50 foot octopus as a mega unit, I'm still going to use Order when I want to fight off hell. And I'll use OO when I want to fight around water. CoE is for stealth, AV is for ending the world, and the others each have their own niche.

Not saying every religion should be the same flavor. Just that they should all have the same amount of icing, each with it's own unique tastes. As is, some religiong have far more icing than others. The Empyrean cake is looking a little bare, but AV even gets a cherry on top. Also, this analogy is silly so I'll stop now.

For religions, I'd be quite curious to see what Esus would look like as a corporation rather than a religion. At the absolute least, it would keep people from complaining about the lack of temples and priests. It's on the level of what I've always wanted corporations to be, something more than just "consumes X, X, and X, provides small bonuses".
With Empyrean, I'd like to see it become the builder/diplomat religion, so not gaining anything more in terms of military strength, but instead some new domestic benefits like buildings and/or improvements.

The other religions don't need a whole lot. For OO, either a civic, building, or improvement that boosts coast and ocean tiles. That would give them a non-military reason to stay in the water. For FoL, allow High Priests to create a new type of base terrain that provides 2 food and 2 commerce (that might need a little tweaking), but cannot support improvements. That way non-elves have a viable way of surviving on ancient forest tiles, without hurting what elves can already do. For AV, an auto-acquire promotion for Arcane units that makes some of their strength unholy and gives a slight boost to spells. Rok is fine as is (although maybe either make Soldiers of Kilmorph not go obsolete or allow Parmanders to hurry production). Order I think will also be fine assuming Empyrean is properly differentiated. If it ends up needing something new, Social Order could use a boost.

Having parallel capabilities wouldn't make religions the same. Even if OO gets a 50 foot octopus as a mega unit, I'm still going to use Order when I want to fight off hell. And I'll use OO when I want to fight around water. CoE is for stealth, AV is for ending the world, and the others each have their own niche.

Not saying every religion should be the same flavor. Just that they should all have the same amount of icing, each with it's own unique tastes. As is, some religiong have far more icing than others. The Empyrean cake is looking a little bare, but AV even gets a cherry on top. Also, this analogy is silly so I'll stop now.


Warning: Do not eat the AV cupcakes. :lol:

Yeah, honestly I would love to see more Dragons, Giant monsters, Paladin-type units, etc... As long as the religions play differently I'm cool with them all getting hit with the Moar Hammer.

Well, I think RoK and AV are fine as they are. They have a unique wonder, civic, tech, and mega unit. I'd like to see every religion raised to that standard.

Well, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on religions then. :lol:

FoL - Perfect for the Elves, need something for other civs... Started that for the Doviello, but it only applies in Tundra and Ice. I think a cheap improvement would work, so long as it's benefits don't outweigh a town the Elves shouldn't be infringed on too much.

OO - Needs work, at least economically. I think a civic would work nicely, say, increase kelp yields and culture?

AV - Perfect in my book.

Order - Again, a strong one. Doesn't have a super-unit, no, but it DOES have a civic allowing unlimited city size with a little work.

RoK - Again, perfect.

Empyrean - Too much focus on combat. I'd probably just go with the idea that had been floating around, adding a second Hero that improves your empire rather than your armies. Maybe a civic as well, with military penalties and economic benefits.

Esus - Needs work. Some method of healing, so on. Preferably through purchase, rather than priests.

Ordo - Intentionally weak. May actually need to be nerfed.

I would actually say that it'd be pretty boring to have each religion have the same type of things it offers. I want them to have the same QUALITY of things they offer though personally.

If I like to play with a super-unit, I want one religion to offer just that, a HUGE SUPER UNIT (preferably one not too impossible to make, like a RoK unit requiring a high AC...). For that I am willing to give up a lot of other fancy things.

If I like all my units to be stronger and better, I want one religion to offer some unique promotions which can enhance my entire army.

If I like to be globally enhanced without having to work at it, I want one religion to offer some kind of a civic or wonder which enhances my empire without me lifting a finger or worrying about it ever again.



Things along those lines. Each religion offering to make my life FAR better in one aspect or another. Then I can mold the game to suit my tastes. For instance, with Kael's religions I ALWAYS GO ROK. This is because I kind of suck at producing sufficient monetary income in my empire, and the Temples help with that a lot. Plus I flat out do not care about culture, as long as I get my first ring expansion so I can work all of the tiles. And the fact I can snag Iron without having to hope it is on my continent (or even on the map at all) is a nice bonus which I would not mind seeing on a different religion (and offering more bonuses as well...) so that I had to decide between the two of them.


Actually having a series of unique buildings which offer critical resources might be a nice bonus for Esus, which is fairly fitting to them. Want Reagents? Follow Esus and we will share some of ours. Want Mithril? Esus's arms are wide open and waiting...

Want Reagents? Follow Esus and we will share some of ours.

"Cut rate. They fell off the back of a cart."

FoL - Perfect for the Elves, need something for other civs... Started that for the Doviello, but it only applies in Tundra and Ice. I think a cheap improvement would work, so long as it's benefits don't outweigh a town the Elves shouldn't be infringed on too much.My earlier suggestion of a unique terrain type was supposed to accomplish pretty much exactly this. Non-elves can terraform for decent tiles, elves can leave the underlying terrain be and build things in the trees. I suggested terrain instead of an improvement for three reasons:
1 - More foresty graphics, as there is nothing to push the trees out of the way
2 - Makes it clear that elves are still doing something quite different
3 - Protects against pillaging.
I would actually say that it'd be pretty boring to have each religion have the same type of things it offers. I want them to have the same QUALITY of things they offer though personally.I agree. I think each religion should have a temple and a disciple line (which is a big part of why I'm pushing for Esus as a corporation), but beyond that anything goes. Technologies are nice, because they give a benefit for having followed the religion for a while even if you leave it later, but they're not necessary.

Doesn't OO already have the Tower of Complacency?

Anyway, I'm very interested in this. Could find some interestings things to port in Orbis :p

Well, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on religions then. :lol:

FoL - Perfect for the Elves, need something for other civs... Started that for the Doviello, but it only applies in Tundra and Ice. I think a cheap improvement would work, so long as it's benefits don't outweigh a town the Elves shouldn't be infringed on too much.

OO - Needs work, at least economically. I think a civic would work nicely, say, increase kelp yields and culture?

AV - Perfect in my book.

Order - Again, a strong one. Doesn't have a super-unit, no, but it DOES have a civic allowing unlimited city size with a little work.

RoK - Again, perfect.

Empyrean - Too much focus on combat. I'd probably just go with the idea that had been floating around, adding a second Hero that improves your empire rather than your armies. Maybe a civic as well, with military penalties and economic benefits.

Esus - Needs work. Some method of healing, so on. Preferably through purchase, rather than priests.

Ordo - Intentionally weak. May actually need to be nerfed.


FOL: If we go with my improvement revamp you'll be able to build camps on any forest tile. +1 food and a chance to spawn a bonus makes FOL MUCH more attractive for non-elves. Expanding the range of terrains allowed for yurts to include plains might also work...but that might be too strong.

Can't you build forester's lodge in forests already..?

... or is it an Orbis feature? If so, then, well, hrm, that's why I never got why playing FoL with non-elves was annoying.

It's just Orbis. Although something like it in FFPlus would be apriciated.

I would actually say that it'd be pretty boring to have each religion have the same type of things it offers. I want them to have the same QUALITY of things they offer though personally.

If I like to play with a super-unit, I want one religion to offer just that, a HUGE SUPER UNIT (preferably one not too impossible to make, like a RoK unit requiring a high AC...). For that I am willing to give up a lot of other fancy things.

If I like all my units to be stronger and better, I want one religion to offer some unique promotions which can enhance my entire army.

If I like to be globally enhanced without having to work at it, I want one religion to offer some kind of a civic or wonder which enhances my empire without me lifting a finger or worrying about it ever again.



Things along those lines. Each religion offering to make my life FAR better in one aspect or another. Then I can mold the game to suit my tastes. For instance, with Kael's religions I ALWAYS GO ROK. This is because I kind of suck at producing sufficient monetary income in my empire, and the Temples help with that a lot. Plus I flat out do not care about culture, as long as I get my first ring expansion so I can work all of the tiles. And the fact I can snag Iron without having to hope it is on my continent (or even on the map at all) is a nice bonus which I would not mind seeing on a different religion (and offering more bonuses as well...) so that I had to decide between the two of them.


Actually having a series of unique buildings which offer critical resources might be a nice bonus for Esus, which is fairly fitting to them. Want Reagents? Follow Esus and we will share some of ours. Want Mithril? Esus's arms are wide open and waiting...

I agree with you here, which is why I haven't messed with them yet. :lol: The only two religions I'm really unhappy with are Empy and Esus... Empy is too warlike, and Esus is too useless. :lol: Although I usually end up RoK too.

My earlier suggestion of a unique terrain type was supposed to accomplish pretty much exactly this. Non-elves can terraform for decent tiles, elves can leave the underlying terrain be and build things in the trees. I suggested terrain instead of an improvement for three reasons:
1 - More foresty graphics, as there is nothing to push the trees out of the way
2 - Makes it clear that elves are still doing something quite different
3 - Protects against pillaging.
I agree. I think each religion should have a temple and a disciple line (which is a big part of why I'm pushing for Esus as a corporation), but beyond that anything goes. Technologies are nice, because they give a benefit for having followed the religion for a while even if you leave it later, but they're not necessary.

I don't like that set up, because of #3. Too powerful.

FOL: If we go with my improvement revamp you'll be able to build camps on any forest tile. +1 food and a chance to spawn a bonus makes FOL MUCH more attractive for non-elves. Expanding the range of terrains allowed for yurts to include plains might also work...but that might be too strong.

Expanding Yurts to plains would be too powerful, but something like that, yes.

Can't you build forester's lodge in forests already..?

... or is it an Orbis feature? If so, then, well, hrm, that's why I never got why playing FoL with non-elves was annoying.

Orbis only atm. :p

with the ff changelog being released i cant wait to see the ffplus changelog :D

i tried out 2 of my changes with astonishing results

i gave optics a +1 food bonus with fishing boats and gave shrimp bonusgold so that its at 9 gold (might be a bit too much :) )

i had a seastart with clam and some lakes inside (also increased their gold output by 1)

with clam and 3 lakes and gold ressource i had quite some research then and quickly built my new city next to 2 shrimp ressources which granted me 18 research then.

i quickly went for oo, then optics and then the shrimpcity was able grow and grow and still provide loads of gold.

finally an alternative to cottagespam. (i dont want to be that much dependant on cottages but there is hardly a way to avoid them)

with this change optics might be a viable choice.

without the urge to get ships there was no reason to go for optics to me before but now i love it (maybe optics wasnt even weak before :)) but i just didnt realize it )

My changelog will likely be small, with almost no work of my own. :lol:

Honestly, patch E will just be a compatibility patch, with Vermicious Knid's Jotnar changes.

Your changes sound good, but will probably be too much after I add Kelp.

Here's a basic changelog for you... Posted in the Download thread as well.

Patch E: (Unreleased)


Compatible with FF 051
Vermicious' Jotnar changes (Following list is far from complete, from one of his posts in our group forum)

Kindred Promotions (Woodkin(trolls), Seakin(trolls), Firekin, Frostkin, Stonekin, and Stormkin)
The bonus production for mills was silly (Don Quixote/Jack in the Beanstalk nod?). It is gone. I have farms, plantations, and pastures giving +1 commerce right now...not sure that is needed if we go with my improvement changes.
No cap on city size. Was arbitrary. No real need for it balance-wise.
No link to AC for spawn rate. Too limiting for evil Jotnar.
Palace mana Mind, Creation, and Law. Spirit is pretty useless for them. Life is also a possibility to replace Mind.
Unique monument. Gives +1 gold and +1 culture. Spawns a Jot Adult when built.
Unique barracks. Gives +1 happy, 10% commerce bonus. Requires code of laws. Allows them to build Thrall Axeman (replacing orc conscripts)
Staeding gives +1 food to water tiles. Encourages coastal starts.
Changed flavourstart to weight coastal start, riverside, hills.
Traditions civic loses number of cities maintenance bonus entirely. Gives 25% enslave chance.
Archery techs, Poisons unblocked. Mounted line techs blocked.
Changed starting techs to Traditions, Agriculture, Exploration. Not entirely sure they need 3 to be viable. If we decide to drop one I'd dump Agriculture.

Honor's Arcane Mastery mod merged in.
Minor Leaders trimmed down.
Bug fixes

i don't know if this is the time or place to mention this, but I had a few ideas that I think would really be cool, but I have no clue how to make these work....

Corporations - Parasitic Civs:D
- a start-up option that allows this
- at every corporation founding, an event occurs that allows you to take control of the corporation (I'm thinking something like the mercurians, you'll understand in a moment)
- the corporation is a "shadow city" that skims up to 50% production and commerce from the city, this can be increased to 75% by building a "favored site" terrain improvement and boosting the base production, commerce, and food of the city plot built on it by 2
- i'm thinking that the % stolen should be linked to how long the corp has been in the city
- each corp should be completely different from the others, some would improve their cities through buildings, some improve empires with the corp's own troops, others with resources the civ could get no other way
- diplomacy should also be limited to those civs that the corp has expanded into, and the corp should be able to expand itself
- if you choose not to control this corp, maybe it should act normally, and a lot more corps should be added, like an arcane group (werewolf creaters?:lol:), Stewards of inequality (troops with super bounty hunter, +20 gold and a slave 25%of the time:mischief:?), and a mercinary group like the guild of nine?

Any nibbles?

Fort culture expansion needs to be available at lower levels. Having it be reliant on the for commander reaching level 5 basically means that it will never happen via the passive experience gain.

They're getting promotions giving free xp, so it'll work fine. :goodjob:

I think that those little dwarfs need some tweeking, because they have a deadly combination of strong offense (with very strong siege weapons) and defense with hill bonus and other defensive units like rifleman.
I am playing with the bannor (difficulty set on immortal) and this guys are unstopable ! they unleash a deadly trebouche attack and than a horde of assasins finish the job...
I admit that i am very happy to play against a smart AI but still, i think that some work should be done here, every time i chose to add them to my game they manage to build a huge empire and to dominate the game

Hi
A question
Is there a simple way to modify the strength of the blight spell ?
The spell keeps killing my paladins and i really wish to keeps them alive

thanx

new idea:

prob: lack of complete centralism-civ

solution:

capital as only city that can create culture. 10-12 rings culture of capitol. other cities can work fields the capitol grants culture to.

so if u place a city 25 fields away from your capital it wont have a culture radius and cant work anything.

this leads to a completely centralized realm

anybody got some use for this?

also the sidar specialist buffs could need some balance. atm engineers are too strong with 50% bonus while merchants only get 25% for example or artists also 25%

Well, after some tests, it seems like when the AC reach 30 my paladins just disappear even when blight spell is removed from the game

Is there a way to change it ? i wish to keep this units alive...

Thanx

I think that those little dwarfs need some tweeking, because they have a deadly combination of strong offense (with very strong siege weapons) and defense with hill bonus and other defensive units like rifleman.
I am playing with the bannor (difficulty set on immortal) and this guys are unstopable ! they unleash a deadly trebouche attack and than a horde of assasins finish the job...
I admit that i am very happy to play against a smart AI but still, i think that some work should be done here, every time i chose to add them to my game they manage to build a huge empire and to dominate the game

Hmm... I think this may be the first post I've gotten about the Khazad being OP. :lol: What difficulty were you on? I normally don't see them do too well, because the AI doesn't save money for the vaults well. Something I'm going to work on... Which will make them even stronger. :lol:

new idea:

prob: lack of complete centralism-civ

solution:

capital as only city that can create culture. 10-12 rings culture of capitol. other cities can work fields the capitol grants culture to.

so if u place a city 25 fields away from your capital it wont have a culture radius and cant work anything.

this leads to a completely centralized realm

anybody got some use for this?

also the sidar specialist buffs could need some balance. atm engineers are too strong with 50% bonus while merchants only get 25% for example or artists also 25%

Hmm... I don't know about that, honestly. I'm thinking of doing something less extreme for Kane, though.

I'll look at the Sidar bonuses... I honestly never play them though, so I wouldn't know what to set it at. :lol:

new idea:

prob: lack of complete centralism-civ

solution:

capital as only city that can create culture. 10-12 rings culture of capitol. other cities can work fields the capitol grants culture to.

so if u place a city 25 fields away from your capital it wont have a culture radius and cant work anything.

this leads to a completely centralized realm

anybody got some use for this?




A civ like this could be neat. What would be really interesting is if they could settle outside their cultural border...but when they did that city immediately became an independent colony. Could represent a hive-mind that splits when the hive grows too large.

No , you can't make them MORE stronger ! they will be even more unstoppable ! :eek:
The level of difficulty is One before deity, so it's pretty hard, but even on lower levels they seem to be powerful. maybe some tweaking with siege weapon ? limit the number of siege weapon ? reduce power ? something must be done ! :)

I never saw them that powerful either... :lol:
Although I saw them quite powerful in my recent games (Orbis' LE), certainly because of the +100 gold I give them from the start. By the way, Valk, how do you intend to tweak them? I though of changing their needed gold if played by the AI, like reducing it by 50%. I guess adding money saving AI in the DLL would be better but I frankly don't know where to look at.

Honestly, all I intend to do is make them save money, like a Human player. I don't like giving the AI advantages...

Hopefully, this is semi-coherent. I can't even walk atm haha. . .. .. .. .ing Triple Sec... I can't see 5 feet in front of me haha. This is amazing. :goodjob: Drunk people FTW!!!

To make them conserve gold you need to modify CvPlayerAI::AI_goldTarget() most likely. I've been trying to think of a decent approach for it, I'd create a tag for the CivilizationInfos.xml which indicates the need to save more gold, but haven't convinced myself yet that it is the best way to approach it (how many Civs are going to want a supply of gold based on number of cities?).

Yeah, I thought that too but it didn't seem worth the effort. I heard Sephi has done some work on the Khazad with his Wild Mana FFH2 mod but maybe it just check for the civilization type being Khazad.

Pretty sure it just checks for the Khazad... Which may be how I do it too, as the only other civ that really needs to save gold is the Jotnar, and they use it differently enough that you'd basically have to write two different functions.

The main question though is HOW you use your reference to the Khazad. A python block saying "You absolutely MUST maintain this much gold!" can be debilitating. The function I mentioned has a pretty stern "Hey, keep cash around doofus!" attached to it, but there are exceptions scattered through the code where it says things like "Ok, we are about to die, and have a lot of troops which aren't upgraded, so I GUESS we can let you break open the piggy-bank..."

So, anyone seen this yet?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12802

I can see so many uses for that model... :lol:

The main question though is HOW you use your reference to the Khazad. A python block saying "You absolutely MUST maintain this much gold!" can be debilitating. The function I mentioned has a pretty stern "Hey, keep cash around doofus!" attached to it, but there are exceptions scattered through the code where it says things like "Ok, we are about to die, and have a lot of troops which aren't upgraded, so I GUESS we can let you break open the piggy-bank..."

This I don't know yet. :lol: I do know I want the AI to be reluctant to dip into the bank, but do so if necessary... Or if it will help it make more money long-term. (IE, rush-build the Bazaar, assuming it doesn't take the vaults too low. :p)

I'll be looking at how others have done it, and working off that, but I get the feeling that AI work really needs to be done in the DLL rather than python, like most of the AI mods have done... Seems more flexible, not to mention faster.

Also it is a question of timing. Python has to wait till someone talks to it, the DLL can butt in where- and when- ever it wants.

Since this is an Ideas, Requests and Feedback thread, here's a couple:

(1) Availability of the "Flying" promotion to the Angel race, probably with a fairly high prerequisite like Combat 5. Hey, demons and undead get that Fear type promo available at that prereqlevel, give the Angels something special that helps justify all the winged models. Granted some National Units can fly (Ophanim, Heralds, something else?), but making it open to the rank n' file Angels with oodles of experience adds some new tactical wrinkles. Guess it'd also work out nicely for Brigit, Sphener, or anyone else with the XP to spend on it.

(2) Some more "cast once for one permanent buff" tier III spells, for as many spheres as you can dream up, much in the theme of Death III being not just Wraiths, but Lichdom available. Examples:
(a) Shadow III keeping "Summon Mistform", but also getting an "Invisibility" available to your lucky archmage, basically meaning s/he would get the same promotion as Shadows do. If it's too unbalancing to have a permanently Invisible death dealer like that, a spell granting "Hidden" like Krakens or Ghosts get would be reasonable.
(b) Enchantment III keeping the Create Spellstaff deal, but also a "once per caster" type of generic magic weapon or armor they can create to have carried around by themselves or some other unit, just like a Golden Hammer, Orthus Axe, Netherblade, whatever (but not like the nontransferrable "Master" gear from the various pay-for-promo buildings). Alternately, just have a "Create Wondrous Item" spell that simply pulls a random, non-unique piece of equipment (or consumable like a potion) from a long list, and the Archmage becomes able to cast the spell again if that item is ever lost by your empire (such as it getting drank like a potion or captured in a war). If someone wanted to be really fancy, putting three buttons for "Create Weapon", "Create Armor", "Create Wondrous Item" on when you acquire Enchantment III, and once you blow any one of them off, the other two vanish, well, that might work too, knocking out the element of chance a great deal.
(c) Earth III getting some kind of "Stone Walk" promotion, effectively giving them double speed in hills and the ability to traverse mountains. Tossing around an Earth Elemental is fun and all, but tossing 'em from a mountaintop is better (well, at least until a dwarven druid or one of those flying units noted above comes and bloodies your nose).
(d) Fire III, get some kind of Fire Immunity promo, which hey, means immunity to fire damage, but also the ability to walk through fiery areas like orcs and demons. It's a minor thing, but at least fits the suggested theme that not only might you have water walkers, stone walkers, flying guys, but also guys who can traverse hell terrain etc. very well.
(e) There's probably dozens of threads around the boards with other Tier III ideas, I'm sure there's lots of good and/or better ideas than the above, but c'mon, wizards are supposed to fly, turn invisible, create magic items (other than just from a meteor falling and paying 50gp!), I'm playing to the classics here. :)

(3) All those "master" equipment promotions, have 'em grant a pittance of gold-loot whenever you kill a unit with them. I'm not talking a huge bounty, even 1 gold per equipment promotion on death would do. So if you have some national unit, especially the recon ones, who can carry around 5 or 6 of these "woods gear", "mantraps", "superior kit", whatever, at least you get a happy little surprise in terms of gold. I would not though, support "dropping" the equipment for anyone to pick up. At best, maybe a small % chance that the unit's killer "steals" any of these relevant promotions if it fits their unit type, as an alternative to getting some gold. So your assassin killing another assassin who has Deadly Nightshade, may have a 5% chance of salvaging it and themselves acquiring the promo. But your knight (mounted line) who kills the Deadly Nightshade user (recon line), would never manage to pick it up... different story though if he fought a Death Knight (also mounted line) with Cataphract Armor. *shrugs*

(4) Religious conversion at the single unit level - I've always hated Recon units being built in an Esus city sometimes missing out on the Esus religion. At the same time though, sometimes you end up with a big Mercurian/Infernals war going on and you MAY feel like micromanaging where your highest XP units are going to end up when they get killed off. How's this for a solution: visit a holy city, pay 1 gold to convert a non-disciple, non-religious hero unit to the relevant religion, casting time, call it one turn. This is regardless of whether the holy shrine has actually been built, i.e., visiting the holy city of Runes, you could convert without worrying about whether the owner (possibly an AI) had built the Tablets. I honestly forget whether the Esus holy city is unknown unless you convert to Esus, but I suppose it could be a subtle form of recon to be in a certain city, and to see a spell available to your unit called "Convert to Esus." This may encourage a little extra Open Borders incentive if you really, really want your recon units to visit the Esus city and need to keep its owner on your good side (until you can stab them in the back and take it for your own).

(5) Bounty Hunter promo payoffs, jack them up based on unit XP, number of promos, or something else that a script / code / whatever makes easy to count. Maybe 1 gold per 5xp? 1 gold per 10xp? 1 gold per 2 promotions? Don't know, the only idea is to make famous/notorious/powerful targets, attractive to a bounty hunter.

Anyhow I know some of these ideas must be repetitive of other ideas "somewhere out there", I've enjoyed playing FF+ so I figured since there's an organized "Ideas" thread, I'd throw in some favourites.

Hmm... I like number 1. At first I was iffy, but the opposite faction DOES get both Fear, and Cannibalize, so I can see it.

2. Not sure here... Already adding one for Nature, although it's Bezeri only. I'm not sure there's enough use for other spells like that, but I'll think on it. If I can think of enough (Or if other people give enough ideas, doing the work for me.... ;)), I'll put them in.

3. This one could be done easily, at least the first part... I don't want to put in any salvaging, but I could add 1 gold for each master's promo.

4. I have this planned for Esus, in any city with the religion, costing gold... I can see adding it to other religions, requiring gold cost, trip to the holy city, and a few turns 'praying'. Would have to block religious units, religious heroes, and a few other things like Elks. Probably just block all animals/beasts.

5. I like the idea, but it's a pain to implement... Actually, maybe not. Could use Xienwolf's postcombatwon tag in promotioninfos, grab the xp of the losing unit, reduce it, round down, and then add gold.


I'm more than willing to listen to any ideas, so post more if you have them. :goodjob:

(5) Bounty Hunter promo payoffs, jack them up based on unit XP, number of promos, or something else that a script / code / whatever makes easy to count. Maybe 1 gold per 5xp? 1 gold per 10xp? 1 gold per 2 promotions? Don't know, the only idea is to make famous/notorious/powerful targets, attractive to a bounty hunter.


I strongly disagree with this idea. I have 4 or 5 units with BH Promos. 2 gold per kill gets me 10gold/turn on attack and sometimes 40-50gold/turn on defense. You can run an entire economy on the gold from BH as it is now.

If there was an upgrade that required BH AND Heroic Attack 2 AND Heroic Defense 2, there for only VERY experienced units could get it and since it would be limited to heroes you wouldn't see stacks of units with it, that wouldn't bee as bad.

If you do implement the extra gold for killing a unit with a Master's Equipment promotion, don't resort to python as your first impulse might suggest. There is a field in Promotions to grant Yields or Commerces to the opponent when you are killed.

That one I know of. The only one I'd have to use python for currently, would be to scale gold returns by level or xp. Not sure I'll do that either, it does seem like it could get to be a bit much.

If you did do that, you would also scale it (inversely) by distance from your own territory, so that fighting an offensive war nets you almost nothing (out of borders, nobody cared to put a bounty on them), but fighting a defensive war gets you some decent profits. Though if you did do it like that you would be aiming for some sort of "realism" so you wouldn't get ANY bounty for killing a unit you are actually at war with, just for Barbarians and HN units (all the others it is your JOB to kill, so you might gain spoils, but not a bounty)

Would it be possible to check for a promotion like hero? If possible it should be a huge boost to the bounty to take down a unit that realistically should have a big bounty.

I would tend to think that heroes, mages, high level, and high tier units should have higher bounties, while low level tier 1 units should have no bounties at all.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments Valkrionn.

I recognize item (2) about spells might've seemed half assed, since there wasn't a "special" for every sphere named, but like I said I was trying to hit some D&D classics. We've got Fireball, Stoneskin, Haste, more Summon Creature spells than you can shake a stick at, so missing items like Invisibility, Flight, or some process of ending up with extra magic arms and armor (via Enchantment III and an Archmage maybe having to sit out big battles churning out a new item every 5 turns?) seemed fit, or at least more fit than "Summon a Shadowy guy" / "Summon an Air guy" / "Break Spellstaff to cast something over again because you can't take Twincast" type of thing.

Also on (3) and (5), I am of the mind that LOW gold rewards adjustments would do, as a little extra something for a victor over someone dripping with expensive gear, or with XP / Promos. The fact that you've denied an opponent, AI or otherwise, of a high value unit, is basically reward enough. Ever count up how much gear a "superunit" can acquire, especially on the recon line? Expensive to outfit! Killing a unit which cost the owner a couple hundred gold to outfit is good stuff. Same with killing a unit who's survived 200 battles and has the XP to show for it, that's also great. Still, a minor reward seems in order, just like when a Privateer kills a fat trade vessel.

Regarding the Master equipment promos not being salvage capable though... in a different form, that'd be a tasty treat for units with the "Steal" ability though, wouldn't it? There may only be one Orthus Axe out there, but stealing someone's Fine Kit or Cursed Lance could be fun, although I guess it'd need a lot of thought to figure out what say, a Svart Ranger would do with a "Fast Horse", "Blessed Armor", or other things not normal for the recon line to have. *shrugs* Still, if it's not nailed down, that means it's yours.

If you did do that, you would also scale it (inversely) by distance from your own territory, so that fighting an offensive war nets you almost nothing (out of borders, nobody cared to put a bounty on them), but fighting a defensive war gets you some decent profits. Though if you did do it like that you would be aiming for some sort of "realism" so you wouldn't get ANY bounty for killing a unit you are actually at war with, just for Barbarians and HN units (all the others it is your JOB to kill, so you might gain spoils, but not a bounty)

So maybe units in Neutral territory?

For once, I'm going to ask for ideas on a specific subject... Need a name for the production-fallow trait. Can't be Aquatic, as it may eventually be used for a land based civ. I'd like something to reflect the non-industialized nature of a civ that doesn't use hammers... Ideas?

Lazy ;)

Spawner, Breeder, Glutton, Atrophy, Weak, Carefree...

I suppose a serious suggestion (one which doesn't sound diminutive) needs to know WHY they don't generate production in the normal means.

Ergophobia or Ponophobia or Ergasiophobia.

3 different Work Phobias :)

So, anyone seen this yet?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12802

I can see so many uses for that model... :lol:

Malakim sand worms. I must use them for that unit's model.

For once, I'm going to ask for ideas on a specific subject... Need a name for the production-fallow trait. Can't be Aquatic, as it may eventually be used for a land based civ. I'd like something to reflect the non-industialized nature of a civ that doesn't use hammers... Ideas?

futile, ineffective, pointless, unavailing, depleted, desolate, impoverished, infecund, wasteful...

Fabricator

Biotechnical
Biomechanical
Bioconstructive
Biomanipulative
Biocreatures
Biotools

Edit people have been recomanding things like lazy. I don't think that's the intent at all. Valk has said that the Bezeri will be Production-Fallow because they use biotech and bio-constructs, not because their lazy or anything like that.

Yeah, it's not that they are lazy in any way, but that they are incapable of using normal technology. That's why I'm having issues with a name. :lol:

Breeder could possibly work, as it would fit the Bezeri(Breeding animals to do the work/serve as tools) and would fit another idea I had for way down the line. :lol:

Thumbless

Would fit for the later idea, but the Bezeri have thumbs. :lol: No fire, but thumbs.

Inept? Technophobic/Arsonphobic?

Former
Shaper

Yuuzhan Vong

It's life Jim, but not as we know it.

Tholian?

Former
Shaper


I like both of these. :goodjob:

So do I. :goodjob:

Another "idea/request/feedback"...

Y'know how Crossbowmen are a national unit, limit 4, and Arquebus are unlimited?

What about switching those two, for most if not all Civs (maybe treat Mechanos special, possibly Luchiurp too)?

Dark fantasy with all the swords and sorcery stuff becomes pretty strange looking in the end game when you end up having any civ who's capable of fielding gunpowder units, crawling with them. Trust me that I've never "trained" with a crossbow or an arquebus, but you'd think crossbows are a little more user friendly than primitive firearms, they sure came at an earlier time in RL history, probably with less logistical problems than backfiring, unreliable in the rain, early blunderbusses, hand cannons, stuff of that nature.

Obviously the numerical end could end up needing work, to make Arq's more "National Unit worthy" and maybe reconsider Crossbow balance, just thinking the Arquebus being an unlimited "end of the archery line" looks strange, when the arguably "earlier stop" on that line, of Crossbowmen, is subject to limits.

Making Arquebus stronger, national limit 6 units in Fall Flat worked really well. Just sayin'....

I'd like to see arquebus cause fear, be far stronger, and limited.

Crossbows should be more or less how they are in base civ, I think. An alternative to a longbowman, not definitively better or worse, but good in different situations. And roughly even on strength (so much weaker than now)

I still like the idea of splitting the archery line in two:
Archer->Longbowman->Marksman would have higher ranged combat strength and ranged combat limits. Marksmen would have level requirements, but be the only units in the game that can deal lethal ranged damage. I might make Longbowmen get some free Drill promotions, and be more expensive. They would probably be innately stronger, have no resource prereqs, but not get weapons promotions.

Archer-Crossbowman->Arquebus would be have much weaker ranged attacks with lower damage caps but would deal collateral. They would be a cheaper archer line, but would require more expensive techs, buildings, and resources. They would be weaker but could take advantage of weapons promotions. Crossbowman would of course be weaker than they currently are, and not be national units. I'm not sure I'd put a limit on Arquebuses either. I might consider giving them a promotion that can cause fear but also has a decent chance of having something go wrong and hurting their own side, representing how the new gunpowder technology was psychologically shocking but not yet reliable or safe for its users.

First off... Primitive fire arms actually WERE easier to use than a crossbow. Took a bit longer to fire, but they were easier to aim, which meant less training for the troops. Main reason they caught on so fast, since at the time crossbows generally had about as much penetrative power, if not a bit more at close range.

That said, I like Magister's idea there.

I think a key thing in general, is that crossbows should be much cheaper than longbows. At least 33% less, maybe half, or even less. To reflect that they require little training. Balanced by being less flexible, weaker in some areas, and/or requiring more tech investment to build initially.


Possibly, the tech path could also be more divided. Crossbows and Arquebus would be the ranged attackers of choice, for those who go down the metalworking and industrial paths. Whereas archers, longbows, and marksmen, could be more closely tied to the recon line.


Some thoughts on tech tree paths:

Archery, requires crafting
Bowyers, requires tracking and archery. (no requirements in the metal line.)
Poisons, requires hunting and archery
Precision, requires poisons, bowyers, and tracking.

Crossbows, could be moved back the tech tree a little. Perhaps requiring Engineering and Smelting or Iron working. Engineering itself requires construction and mathematics, and smelting needs bronze working.

Machinery should lose bowyers as a prereq, to unlink those tech lines. Instead requiring engineering and iron working.

I'd say, arquebuses should require both machinery (to mass produce the guns) and blasting powder (for the gunpowder), and be proportionally stronger to compensate for the increased tech requirements.

Collateral damage does seem like an interesting idea for them, but I think the ability to cause fear is a primary thing. in the case of Guns versus Swords, the loud explosions and people invisibly dying are key tools, gunpowder weapons attack the enemy's morale as well as their men.

IMHO? Remove the ranged attack from Crossbow troops, give it to longbowmen, give LBows more damage in ranged than they do in an actual fight, especially on the offense. Crossbows were something you'd give to peasants so they could do something against knights, but really only shot straight and were a PITA to reload. Longbows were used by dedicated archers to pelt and kill enemies before they closed with your lines or defend settlements.

I'd change them to be used as such. I do not like the idea of crossbows being some sort of god-bow comparatively. Men would run across the battlefield with arrows sticking out of them from either, tbh. But longbows could shoot a lot farther and were used by better trained troops.

Also, if giant fireballs, summoned skeletons and towering elementals, columns of hellfire and torrents of water, and high priests wielding the fury of sleeping gods of insanity don't cause fear, gunpowder really doesn't need to.

I think you should leave the Archer/Longbow/Crossbow line intact as city defenders, cut the ranged attack on Crossbowmen (the big downside to crossbows was their terrible range compared to bows) and make guns be an optional equipment toggle for archery units (something like boat crews) that balances out their attack and defense.

Keep Marksmen pretty much as is - the offensive/ranged branch of the top Archery tier.
Collateral damage does seem like an interesting idea for them, but I think the ability to cause fear is a primary thing. in the case of Guns versus Swords, the loud explosions and people invisibly dying are key tools, gunpowder weapons attack the enemy's morale as well as their men.
I think that's significantly less of an issue in a world where fireballs and other magic will probably already have been around for a while. Guns might almost be refreshingly obvious in comparison.

So...if crossbows lost their range they would need to be changed to UNITCOMBAT_MELEE or RECON. Otherwise, their promo options would be pretty sad.

Makes sense to have the Archers divorced from the crossbows...totally different skillset. Actually, given the increased accuracy of crossbows it wouldn't be a bad idea to have Assassin/Crossbow/Marksman form a new unit progression. Heck, some armed forces continue to use poisoned crossbow bolts in the present day.

Doesn't map completely to the image of the European crossbowman from the middle ages...but weapons would certainly find different niches in a world where sniping Adepts was a pressing concern.

Also, if giant fireballs, summoned skeletons and towering elementals, columns of hellfire and torrents of water, and high priests wielding the fury of sleeping gods of insanity don't cause fear, gunpowder really doesn't need to.

It's like certain things in discworld. All those things are normal. Gunpowder isn't.

I remember there being talk at one point about improving the Broader Alignments option for FF+, and so I thought I'd share a recent revelation I had for why I don't like the current implementation:
The basic problem is that broader alignments (and most suggested improvements to it) only changes half of the equation. It changes the things you can do to affect your alignment into a sliding scale, but not the things your alignment affects. Regardless of the point values that contribute to it, alignment remains a straight Good/Neutral/Evil split, and everything that is based on your alignment only pays attention to those three possible states. I think that that division needs just as much expansion if Broader Alignments is going to be improved.

Still keep intending to make Broader Alignment versions of some religious troops for FF+ - more than graphical changes. Perhaps instead of Crusaders you create Zealots (not the OO preists, so we'll need another name for them, but you get the idea.)

perhaps 'radical extremists'?

Nothing to do with the recent discussion, but I just found JRouteNative..... Going to be using that instead of ZRoutes for the Mechanos fort. Allows me to do several things, including setting units to require roads to move, setting them to be unable to move on certain routes, setting them to ignore the movement bonuses of a route, and setting them to use the bonus from one route, on a different route... So I could have, say, a Hippus Raider UU use the bonus from an (unused) improved road, on normal roads, giving them even greater mobility. ;)

Edit: Also, might move the Bezeri away from a hard limit on the number of cities, to use code from JCityLimit to limit the number based on the Era... Which FF still uses a few of. Not sure how that'll conflict with religions, though.

Edit2: Jesus, wishing I'd gone through Jeckel's modcomps before now. :lol: Here's another, JCultureControl. Basically does exactly what I already planned to do myself, in that allows me to set a tag for an improvement that will automatically spread it's borders... No code to run each turn, searching out the improvements and then relying on a unit's promotions. Fort Commanders will remain, but they will have significantly less effect on the cultural borders.

Edit3: And another minor miracle. :lol: JImprovementLimit. I get two things from this: First, Rather than needing a python check to limit certain improvements (Pirate Harbors? Bedouin Sits?) from being built next to each other, I can set a simple tag that does it all... Meaning the AI should be able to understand it, without slowing the game. Second, there is another tag preventing certain improvements from being built in cultural borders... I can easily see applying that to forts.

Jeckel's mods are awesome, no doubt about that :D

Just had a new thought: with the new commander system from FF, you could do a whole new set of interesting things with Fort Commanders. At the very least, it would be a way to make that generic combat bonus within three tiles into something a whole lot more flexible.

I actually think that's the way I'll be going with them, now that they won't affect culture... I like them too much to get rid of them completely. :lol: I'm thinking of having them apply a strong bonus to units following them, but only for a one tile range, and they themselves will still be confined to the fort... Basically lets you build a strong defensive force.

I actually think that's the way I'll be going with them, now that they won't affect culture... I like them too much to get rid of them completely. :lol: I'm thinking of having them apply a strong bonus to units following them, but only for a one tile range, and they themselves will still be confined to the fort... Basically lets you build a strong defensive force.
I was thinking of even more than that, like the ability to build different types of fort-like improvements for special commanders. Like a wizard's tower with a commander that boosts arcane units. Or a lighthouse commander that can lead nearby coastal units.

On a different note, I noticed in the FF051 bug thread you were interested in aquatic cities. The Planetfall mod has that set up already quite nicely, it would be a good place to go if you need to work out any difficulties.

Yep, I was looking at the Planetfall mod... Believe they're in another one also, but I'd have to hunt that one down.

As for the commanders, that could work. One of the JImprovementLimit tags allows you to make an improvement require you to build it on top of an existing one... So I allow them to upgrade to specific commander types, which then have build orders for their 'forts' requiring a Citadel to be built on.

Yep, I was looking at the Planetfall mod... Believe they're in another one also, but I'd have to hunt that one down.

As for the commanders, that could work. One of the JImprovementLimit tags allows you to make an improvement require you to build it on top of an existing one... So I allow them to upgrade to specific commander types, which then have build orders for their 'forts' requiring a Citadel to be built on.

So when a fort commander hits a certain level, he can choose one of these promotions like arcane commander or something and then he can upgrade his citidel to wizard's tower?

How would this work for specialized forts like dwarven mines, malakim tower of light, and (soon) mechanos mobile forts?

Nothing to do with the recent discussion, but I just found JRouteNative..... Going to be using that instead of ZRoutes for the Mechanos fort. Allows me to do several things, including setting units to require roads to move, setting them to be unable to move on certain routes, setting them to ignore the movement bonuses of a route, and setting them to use the bonus from one route, on a different route... So I could have, say, a Hippus Raider UU use the bonus from an (unused) improved road, on normal roads, giving them even greater mobility. ;)

Edit: Also, might move the Bezeri away from a hard limit on the number of cities, to use code from JCityLimit to limit the number based on the Era... Which FF still uses a few of. Not sure how that'll conflict with religions, though.

Edit2: Jesus, wishing I'd gone through Jeckel's modcomps before now. :lol: Here's another, JCultureControl. Basically does exactly what I already planned to do myself, in that allows me to set a tag for an improvement that will automatically spread it's borders... No code to run each turn, searching out the improvements and then relying on a unit's promotions. Fort Commanders will remain, but they will have significantly less effect on the cultural borders.

Edit3: And another minor miracle. :lol: JImprovementLimit. I get two things from this: First, Rather than needing a python check to limit certain improvements (Pirate Harbors? Bedouin Sits?) from being built next to each other, I can set a simple tag that does it all... Meaning the AI should be able to understand it, without slowing the game. Second, there is another tag preventing certain improvements from being built in cultural borders... I can easily see applying that to forts.

I've been asking Xienwolf to merge all those into the FF base code for quite some time, to no avail. If you go ahead and add them to FF+, then I have to borrow your dll instead. (Well, base it on that at least, there are a few minor changes I'd need/want, like my TempFeature and TempImprovement functions and the removal of the "you've grown too powerful for us" block to joining a permanent alliance or the reduction of the number of turns a common war or defensive pact is needed for an alliance from 40 to 5. I may also want to use some schema changes from Opera's Leaders Enhanced modmod for Orbis. As I'm a lore purist I don't care for much of the content, but like the fuctionality.)

So when a fort commander hits a certain level, he can choose one of these promotions like arcane commander or something and then he can upgrade his citidel to wizard's tower?

How would this work for specialized forts like dwarven mines, malakim tower of light, and (soon) mechanos mobile forts?

Something like that, I think... In the case of the Dwarves, they have normal forts as well still. They'll be one of the few civs, possibly the only one, to be allowed forts in their borders, at least the Dwarven ones. For the Malakim, I may well make their Citadel of Light be one of their fort upgrades, rather than the ONLY fort upgrade. For the Mechanos, I'm not sure yet. I may let them choose between a mobile, but slightly weaker, fort, versus a strong, stationary fort.

I've been asking Xienwolf to merge all those into the FF base code for quite some time, to no avail. If you go ahead and add them to FF+, then I have to borrow your dll instead. (Well, base it on that at least, there are a few minor changes I'd need/want, like my TempFeature and TempImprovement functions and the removal of the "you've grown too powerful for us" block to joining a permanent alliance or the reduction of the number of turns a common war or defensive pact is needed for an alliance from 40 to 5. I may also want to use some schema changes from Opera's Leaders Enhanced modmod for Orbis. As I'm a lore purist I don't care for much of the content, but like the fuctionality.)

I've always wondered about that 'you've grown to powerful for us' block. It seems to be saying 'no, qwe like getting tossed about by everyone else on the board, we don't want to be permanently allied with someone whom other civs are afraid of.'

More than once I've been in a map where all other civs have paired up but me and one guy, and that one guy refuses to ally with me because I'm too powerful. Since when is it a bad idea to ally with the powerful civ?

EDIT- I do understand it from a mechanical perspective, keep the most powerful civ from getting more powerful, but it's a dumb excuse

Nothing to do with the recent discussion, but I just found http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284471[/URL]"]JRouteNative..... Going to be using that instead of ZRoutes for the Mechanos fort. Allows me to do several things, including setting units to require roads to move, setting them to be unable to move on certain routes, setting them to ignore the movement bonuses of a route, and setting them to use the bonus from one route, on a different route... So I could have, say, a Hippus Raider UU use the bonus from an (unused) improved road, on normal roads, giving them even greater mobility. ;)

Edit: Also, might move the Bezeri away from a hard limit on the number of cities, to use code from JCityLimit to limit the number based on the Era... Which FF still uses a few of. Not sure how that'll conflict with religions, though.

Edit2: Jesus, wishing I'd gone through Jeckel's modcomps before now. :lol: Here's another, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=283686[/URL]"]JCultureControl. Basically does exactly what I already planned to do myself, in that allows me to set a tag for an improvement that will automatically spread it's borders... No code to run each turn, searching out the improvements and then relying on a unit's promotions. Fort Commanders will remain, but they will have significantly less effect on the cultural borders.

Edit3: And another minor miracle. :lol: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=285018[/URL]"]JImprovementLimit. I get two things from this: First, Rather than needing a python check to limit certain improvements (Pirate Harbors? Bedouin Sits?) from being built next to each other, I can set a simple tag that does it all... Meaning the AI should be able to understand it, without slowing the game. Second, there is another tag preventing certain improvements from being built in cultural borders... I can easily see applying that to forts.

Careful about merging. Do it slow at the very least. There are a LOT of differences scattered through the code, and some merges are pathetically simple because they don't overlap with much and are well contained, but others require minor updates of references in dozens of locations, meaning that there are probably MORE such references in FF than in BtS which you must be careful to also catch. And once you have a merge in your code you will always be quick to blame it for bugs which you don't understand unless you are VERY comfortable with the other mod's code (ie - could write it yourself)

Basically, if you think they worked miracles with the code, then yes it makes you want to use it, but that is precisely when you do not WANT to use it, because it is over your head and doesn't use the same base. So understand, THEN merge ;)

Oh, I'm going to do a careful merge against the standard DLL so I can be absolutely certain to find all of their changes, which I'll mark... Then I'll make sure I understand it before attempting to merge it into FF. Had enough issues merging things using just python. :lol:

I've always wondered about that 'you've grown to powerful for us' block. It seems to be saying 'no, qwe like getting tossed about by everyone else on the board, we don't want to be permanently allied with someone whom other civs are afraid of.'

More than once I've been in a map where all other civs have paired up but me and one guy, and that one guy refuses to ally with me because I'm too powerful. Since when is it a bad idea to ally with the powerful civ?

EDIT- I do understand it from a mechanical perspective, keep the most powerful civ from getting more powerful, but it's a dumb excuse
Actually, in my experience that's not what it does. What you describe would actually make sense. I don't know the code involved, so this is just based on in-game experimentation, but what it appears to be is a hard cap on how powerful you can be before a given civ won't want to be your partner.
It doesn't appear to be affected by the other civ's power level, or any other situational factor. It's a "you must be at least *this* weak to ally with us."

Actually, in my experience that's not what it does. What you describe would actually make sense. I don't know the code involved, so this is just based on in-game experimentation, but what it appears to be is a hard cap on how powerful you can be before a given civ won't want to be your partner.
It doesn't appear to be affected by the other civ's power level, or any other situational factor. It's a "you must be at least *this* weak to ally with us."

That makes even less sense. That's simply restricting all civs from making powerful friends. In terms of both a mechanical and flavor sense, that's silly. If you're not the most powerful civ, but still over the 'too powerful' cap you're sol? Flavor-wise, it means that you can't make friends with someone above a certain level. Is this sorta a torerate no rivals deal? What about good civs? What about the Elohim?

i would like to c more tribal village events like foxford except couldnt you make the werewolfs spawn in a normal tribal village? maybe add vampires and have the unit that visits lairs could have a more chance of encountering things other then money warriors and free tech those are what i seem to get off of trbal villages the majority of the time

Careful about merging. Do it slow at the very least. There are a LOT of differences scattered through the code, and some merges are pathetically simple because they don't overlap with much and are well contained, but others require minor updates of references in dozens of locations, meaning that there are probably MORE such references in FF than in BtS which you must be careful to also catch. And once you have a merge in your code you will always be quick to blame it for bugs which you don't understand unless you are VERY comfortable with the other mod's code (ie - could write it yourself)

Basically, if you think they worked miracles with the code, then yes it makes you want to use it, but that is precisely when you do not WANT to use it, because it is over your head and doesn't use the same base. So understand, THEN merge ;)

This man speaks the truth.

Simple facts of life

1. If it seems too good to be true, it is.
2. If you don't know what you're doing, stop doing it, until you do.

Though I've done almost nothing with python in Civ, and nothing with the DLL, I am a coder professionally in other mediums. Rule of thumb, understand everything, on every possible leve, before you do stuff with it. There should never be "magic" or "miracles". You should know exactly what everything does, and how it does it. And if you didn't think of it yourself first, your response should usually be "I should have thought of that. why didn't that idea hit me" or even "I had that Idea, and thought it would never work".

Actually, in my case I called them minor miracles because they were things I already intended on doing, put in front of me. :lol:

I'm going over them carefully before I even think about starting to merge... Same reason I haven't tried to merge in any of the AI work, or Sephi's magic-AI's.

When I merged LeadersRelations, I didn't have any idea of what was going on. Well, I knew why I pasted that there, but I didn't know what that did exactly. Worked great! :p
(now, I think I know how it works even without looking at the code :lol:)

:lol: Sometimes it works out pretty well, but I think a few of the ones I posted, especially culturecontrol, are going to be a bit more of a pain to merge... Seems like an area that would've been tweaked.

Yeah, certainly.
Especially if this is done with the INIParser thingie which seems really like a stranger to me. We're not akin to this kind of modding here on FFH.

Eh. It'll be worth it long term... Especially since I'll be able to easily allow any number of fort replacement lines, upgrades, whatever. Could even allow Kuriotate Enclaves to spread culture... Although it seems rather pointless there. :lol:

Somehow, I think nearly all Bezeri improvements will spread some amount of culture... And will likely overwrite other civ's culture in oceans, but not coasts.

It seems great, sure. I think I'll let you do that one, for a change :D

Seems someone could charm a hipporgriff or Griffon and make a mount for a hero out of one perhaps. Or steal an egg and raise one.

The only problem with mounting beasts, is art, mainly. To make it look good, you'd need a mounted version of every applicable hero, which is a lot.

it's not too hard to mount a unit, but it is time consuming. Depending on how the units are setup, it can take 10mins to 2 hours for an experienced artist, per unit. It amounts to a lot for the 30+ heroes that there are.

The only problem with mounting beasts, is art, mainly. To make it look good, you'd need a mounted version of every applicable hero, which is a lot.

it's not too hard to mount a unit, but it is time consuming. Depending on how the units are setup, it can take 10mins to 2 hours for an experienced artist, per unit. It amounts to a lot for the 30+ heroes that there are.

I know almost nothing about how art works, but would it be simpler to, instead of showing the unit mounted, make the mount walk beside the unit? I'm thinking of something like the way Hunters look, but with a horse/griffon/whatever instead of a wolf.

Would be easy to do that way... Would have to have two versions of every hero that can ride a griffin, three if you do the hippogriff as well, but aside from potential clutter it would be easy.

Updated the first post with some of the ideas in the thread. :goodjob:

i played rise of mankind and there a few great things about it that i think ff should have. minor civs so the civilizations would be rising from tribes minor civs full fledged civs. the second is having stack attack on they dont go down the line fighting there opponent they work together like archers fire trebuchets fire and swordsman run up to the gates i think that if that work for great generals that would make them much more valuable . the third thing is they have barbarian civs that 1 city when it reaches a certain point if its barbarian it turns into a minor civ should happen pre middle era near religion found if people dont beeline for them. thats what i would like to c

The minor civ idea is actually in the works for FF atm... Or at least, is supposed to be. :lol:

Rise of Mankind is the coolest non-FFH mod I've played, no doubt. Would love to see more of its stuff swallowed by FF+. The Apples resource would be really nice, for example. Moar resources!!! :lol:

Yeah, RoM is really good :)
(and apples too! nom!)

If other people were to create Scenarios similar to those found in the base mod, how easy would it be to add them into FF+? Mostly because I wanted to tinker with the Kurio-Mechanos Airship City idea, and also wanted to create a scenario to resolve the Arawn-Laroth conflict.

I do not know... Never messed with any. But if you made them based off FFPlus, I'd be more than happy to include them.

I do not know... Never messed with any. But if you made them based off FFPlus, I'd be more than happy to include them.

Well, they would be based off of FF+, but would probably include a few extra units/leaderheads/bits of code that would be unique to that scenario, as a fleet of Mechanos Airship Cities against a single monolithic Kurio aerial metropolis would require some tinkering. The other scenario would require new leaders as well as some bits to make Arawn's domain valid, and someway to enable an event similar to the one in the Splintered Court where you send an emissary out, start a new game, and then the Emissary shows up asking to hire a unit to take back to the Scenario, a sort of cross-game/save file event that would affect Adventurers/Great People that die can be sent to Laroth's holdings, or Angels could be drafted into Gyra's forces. All ideas, but the idea is relatively sound.

Infact, with the Fort Commander code, I have a newer idea for the Airships- Aerial Siege against the Mechanos Tower. It could be possible to map a new Terrain and give the Mechanos player "forts" along the tower's perimiter that would have to be destroyed by the invading force in order to stop construction of the tower. Or maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself :crazyeye:

The first thing to do would be to see whether its possible to add scenarios to the Scenario Menu, to see if any of these ideas are even possible. I'll go see if the Mod-Modders guide has anything.

Another IDEA:

I've found in FF that the AI has become a lot better at beating me to Feral Bond and the Baron... heck, they've become a lot better at teching generally, it's a good thing for the sake of challenge, but it can sometimes lead to bizarre results like "(Lowest score pathetic civ) has created Baron Duin Halfmorn" and 2 turns later "Baron Duin Halfmorn has been killed!" Hate it when that happens, ha ha.

Anyhow, how about a RITUAL available at Feral Bond which serves as a consolation prize, possibly capable of being built by anyone, multiple times much like Rites of Oghma. Give it some kind of moon themed name or whatever, but the sole point of which is to create one or more werewolf units to start your own werewolf mania. At its simplest, it could be like Pact of the Nilhorn except it creates a couple lowest tier werewolf units for you to nurture. Alternately it could make that city eligible as a place for units of the right unitclass or minimum level to use an ability on themselves ("Submit to the Moon"?) which gives them werewolf abilities, maybe also with the drawback of starting Enraged (since a drawback of having to spend gold would be silly). It may mean your prized unit who you "Submit to the Moon" ends up dashing out of the city hunting for blood, hopefully they survive and lose the Enraged promo, maybe they die though, oh well. Of course, Law Adepts supervising newly minted werewolves until their first kill would be a counter to that.

I am not thinking about any prerequisites like "Evil civs only" or "Doviello only", nor a minimum Armageddon count (nor causing +5 to the AC either), but hey, it'd be possible. While the event is somewhat rare, that "A werewolf attacks your palace, do you slam the gates on innocents?" event that comes up would be a bit of a cruel prerequisite, wouldn't it? I.e., you have to choose to sacrifice some citizens and then the ritual becomes eligible for you? Might be a bad idea since the event is not guaranteed to come up every game, but hey, people manage to enjoy the game without a guarantee of Gaelan or Mary Morbus too.

Anyhow, again, just an idea of making some kind of consolation prize available if you miss out on making the Baron, but really wanted to explore the werewolf rush for your civ regardless. *shrugs*

Anyyy way,, any updates on when Pach E is out?

I had some ideas...

Dwarves should be able to get the spelunking promo(Jotnar) or somthing similar (if giants can descreatly creep around in caves, so can dwarves).

Also, the Austrians should have a mid-late game way of teleporting their units from city to city (I know mages can do this, but it seems more theamatic, and fun, if at some tech (can't think of one, prehaps two would work better...) all Austrian units could simply ride the winds back to one of their cities...

Just a few of my thoughts.

I have one idea for a new and completely unique civ. They would be like a completely nomadic warrior civ, no cities, no cultural borders, no way to build anything, but they would have an incredibly powerful and mobile army.

I know it appears that there would be a lot of problems but I've thought of an answer to every problem I can think of. I posted here to see if anybody likes the idea. If anybody does I will start a separate thread and get to work.

If you have an idea, I say post it. :lol: At the least, start the thread... People will respond more if they get a better idea of the way it'll work.

Somebody, somewhere, does - so get posting!

:whipped:


Please note that this poster in no way condones "encouraging" people to work.

From the Berenzi thread:

I've had the witches sitting on my hard drive for a while, but never could think of something good to do with them.

*pauses to reflect on how bad that sounded*

....anyway. Amurite UU? Sheiam maybe?

Witches/hags should be rolled in as a barbarian unit, for sure. Add a "witches hut" improvement that spawns them maybe? Would give us an early Agares unit. Should have an obnoxious spell that isn't utterly overpowering. Don't want them razing cities. Maybe a minor demonic summons + a spell that removes human control from a unit for a number of turns (adds promotion "Bewitched")? Evil eye spell? Poison damage is a must.

Alternate idea: Hedge Witch. Amurite/Sheaim/Kahdi UU. (Not sure which of these three should get access to them; I'd say all three, but I leave it to the dev team's judgement.) Available at Mysticism. Identical to adepts, and can be upgraded to them (and beyond) when you get KOTE, but are blocked from gaining XP without combat, and get a "Dabbling" promo, removed upon promotion to adept or beyond, that weakens summons and makes spells occasionally fail. Gives the civ(s) granted them a chance to start magic work early, but only if they're willing to hunt down prey for their witches to practice on and tolerate weaker summons/spell failure.

i think for council of esus you need to allow a backstabbing style thing the only ones with spys are council of esus and be able to raid there supply lines would make a nice bonus for esus hippus hidden raider units all your improvements dead in 2 turns and you have an army of hippus horses coming striaght at you would be interesting also allow esus to "relocate resources" as far as spys go make an event like 50%chance you'll wind up getting caught 30 percent chance suceeding and 20 percent chance they find you and can do 1 of 2 things accept a bribe from the undercouncil or declare war on you and gain a free upgrade from the undercouncil they are theives you know so they wouldnt mind having less competition

From the Berenzi thread:



Alternate idea: Hedge Witch. Amurite/Sheaim/Kahdi UU. (Not sure which of these three should get access to them; I'd say all three, but I leave it to the dev team's judgement.) Available at Mysticism. Identical to adepts, and can be upgraded to them (and beyond) when you get KOTE, but are blocked from gaining XP without combat, and get a "Dabbling" promo, removed upon promotion to adept or beyond, that weakens summons and makes spells occasionally fail. Gives the civ(s) granted them a chance to start magic work early, but only if they're willing to hunt down prey for their witches to practice on and tolerate weaker summons/spell failure.

Firstly, Bezeri. Not Berenzi. ;)

As for the basic witch idea, I like it... Would want different graphics for each arcane-civ, though. Witch fits the Sheiam, the Kahdi look arabic inspired so I can in a flying carpet (:p), and I'm not sure for the Amurites.

How about a student for the amurites?

How about a student for the amurites?



Has anyone done a Harry Potter mod? :lol:

Hmm... I've been thinking that it might be nice to add a few more resources to the game. Apples and other fruits, production/commerce resources, whatever. In general, more resources. :lol:

Any ideas? Preferably, ideas that have decent graphics associated?

One mod for that: Rise of Mankind :D

But I'm not for adding resources just for the sake of it. You have to tie them to building and/or units, guilds, etc. Otherwise they're useless. It's already easy enough to gather health and happiness...

Hmm... I've been thinking that it might be nice to add a few more resources to the game. Apples and other fruits, production/commerce resources, whatever. In general, more resources. :lol:

Any ideas? Preferably, ideas that have decent graphics associated?

Steal from Orbis. :)

I like their Duskwood Resource and the small bonus it gives to archery. It is nice to have a resource that has effects other than Health or Happiness.

Possible to make River specific resources? Salmon or trout for instance?

Can resources do OTHER things, Like Diplo bonus? or +1 GP (tied to a building)?

Is there any harm in adding Resources JUST for bonus squares? Do they have to add a secondary effect?

Some kind of venomous plant that let's you make poisoned weapons would be nice. I can't think of a name at the moment, but something like that would be nice.

One mod for that: Rise of Mankind :D

But I'm not for adding resources just for the sake of it. You have to tie them to building and/or units, guilds, etc. Otherwise they're useless. It's already easy enough to gather health and happiness...

That's what I'm looking at now, actually. :lol:

I don't want to add pointless resources either. Any I add will have in game effects, or be tied to guilds somehow... One thing I would like to do is have resources that need to be refined, for example. Maybe add coal, and allow Iron + Coal to be refined into Steel, taking the place of Mithril Weapons... Then buff Mithril Weapons, and make Mithril rarer.

Steal from Orbis. :)

I like their Duskwood Resource and the small bonus it gives to archery. It is nice to have a resource that has effects other than Health or Happiness.

Possible to make River specific resources? Salmon or trout for instance?

Can resources do OTHER things, Like Diplo bonus? or +1 GP (tied to a building)?

Is there any harm in adding Resources JUST for bonus squares? Do they have to add a secondary effect?

The Duskwood resource would be a good one actually, if just for a weapon promo for archers.

I do not think so, no. It would be cool, but rivers run between tiles so I don't think it would be possible.

Resources can do quite a bit. Both things you mention should be possible.

Not particularly, if they're needed. That's why I added Bison, so you can have a decent food tile in tundra. In general though, I don't want to. We have enough resources that do nothing but yields and happiness/health.

Some kind of venomous plant that let's you make poisoned weapons would be nice. I can't think of a name at the moment, but something like that would be nice.

That could work too... A recon weapon. :lol: Could use the 'coca' graphic... Looks nothing like coca anyway. :p

I don't want to add pointless resources either. Any I add will have in game effects, or be tied to guilds somehow... One thing I would like to do is have resources that need to be refined, for example. Maybe add coal, and allow Iron + Coal to be refined into Steel, taking the place of Mithril Weapons... Then buff Mithril Weapons, and make Mithril rarer.Yeah, I actually plan to do that myself for Gunpowder, only available with something like Sulfur + whatever. Or through a guild, don't know yet. I would also like to add some resources like Ale; like a Legends resource given to the first civ that manage to build a new wonder like The Odyssey :p Each library would give +1:) for Legends (and maybe +10%:science: if it's possible, don't remember for now) and the Great Library would give +2:)...

I do not think so, no. It would be cool, but rivers run between tiles so I don't think it would be possible.You could create a building requiring river and something else and then give a resource thanks to that.

Resources can do quite a bit. Both things you mention should be possible.I enhanced the resource diplomacy system, if you're interested.

That's what I'm looking at now, actually. :lol:

I don't want to add pointless resources either. Any I add will have in game effects, or be tied to guilds somehow... One thing I would like to do is have resources that need to be refined, for example. Maybe add coal, and allow Iron + Coal to be refined into Steel, taking the place of Mithril Weapons... Then buff Mithril Weapons, and make Mithril rarer.


I like that Idea.

Poisoned weapon for recons would be neat too.

Okay more ideas, NO clue how to make them work.

Mount type: +10% str mounted units (like nightmare sorta)
plant: increases friendly units in your culture healing by 5%

Would it be wrong to have sub races as a resource? I think having Hobbits as a resource would be hilarious. Can you make having a resource make a building be buildable. The pre-req for the building be ownership of the resource and then the buildings production be linked to that resource (ie you trade it away the building does nothing)

I am seeing Hobbit Bakeries that give
+1 :food: If you have Hobbits AND Corn
+1 :food: if you have Hobbits AND Wheat
+1 :) if you have Hobbits AND Apples

Gnome Tinkerers Hut
+1 :hammers: Gnomes AND Black Powerer
+1 :hammers: Gnomes AND Copper AND Iron

Considering how horribly expensive buildings are, some resources to boost their production would be good.

Prime Lumber and Excellent Stone, for instance. They should be fairly common, so it'd be rare for a civ not to have both so they need to have a cumulative effect on production. Make stone boost production for metal line buildings by 15% per resource and lumber by 5%, vice versa for archery line buildings. Most other buildings are boosted by 10% for each.

Would it be wrong to have sub races as a resource? I think having Hobbits as a resource would be hilarious. Can you make having a resource make a building be buildable. The pre-req for the building be ownership of the resource and then the buildings production be linked to that resource (ie you trade it away the building does nothing)

It wouldn't be wrong to make an improvement that represents integrating the race into you civilization as valued members of society, such as your bakery suggestion and a hobbit resource.

It would be wrong to make an improvement that spawns slaves for the owner.
It would be wrong to make an improvement that transforms the resource, like mana, into Hobbit slaves that allow Balseraph cities to build Hobbit cages.
It would be very wrong to make the Clan of Embers unique version of Smokehouse provide health with Hobbit slaves.
It would be exceedingly wrong to burn the hobbits on a pyre in order to give your entire civilization +1% research.

In all cases it would also be hilarious. I also want to see the cannibal hell-version of hobbits.

It wouldn't be wrong to make an improvement that represents integrating the race into you civilization as valued members of society, such as your bakery suggestion and a hobbit resource.

It would be wrong to make an improvement that spawns slaves for the owner.
It would be wrong to make an improvement that transforms the resource, like mana, into Hobbit slaves that allow Balseraph cities to build Hobbit cages.
It would be very wrong to make the Clan of Embers unique version of Smokehouse provide health with Hobbit slaves.
It would be exceedingly wrong to burn the hobbits on a pyre in order to give your entire civilization +1% research.

In all cases it would also be hilarious. I also want to see the cannibal hell-version of hobbits.

:lol: Oh, wow. You just made my day.
I'm liking this idea more and more. Is it possible to make an improvement civic dependent, so Hobbit Slave Pits are built by those running Slavery, and Hobbit Bakeries are built by those not running slavery?

It wouldn't be wrong to make an improvement that represents integrating the race into you civilization as valued members of society, such as your bakery suggestion and a hobbit resource.

It would be wrong to make an improvement that spawns slaves for the owner.
It would be wrong to make an improvement that transforms the resource, like mana, into Hobbit slaves that allow Balseraph cities to build Hobbit cages.
It would be very wrong to make the Clan of Embers unique version of Smokehouse provide health with Hobbit slaves.
It would be exceedingly wrong to burn the hobbits on a pyre in order to give your entire civilization +1% research.

In all cases it would also be hilarious. I also want to see the cannibal hell-version of hobbits.

LMAO I think everyone of those would be great for evil races. I just don't think that way.

:lol: Oh, wow. You just made my day.
I'm liking this idea more and more. Is it possible to make an improvement civic dependent, so Hobbit Slave Pits are built by those running Slavery, and Hobbit Bakeries are built by those not running slavery?

I like that idea too.

Yeah, I actually plan to do that myself for Gunpowder, only available with something like Sulfur + whatever. Or through a guild, don't know yet. I would also like to add some resources like Ale; like a Legends resource given to the first civ that manage to build a new wonder like The Odyssey :p Each library would give +1:) for Legends (and maybe +10%:science: if it's possible, don't remember for now) and the Great Library would give +2:)...

You could create a building requiring river and something else and then give a resource thanks to that.

I enhanced the resource diplomacy system, if you're interested.

Hmm... I like the gunpowder idea too, but I'm not sure about it at the same time. Blasting Powder is a very late tech for FF, so it seems a bit much to remove the resource like that. Then again, it would work just fine for Orbis. :lol:

The Legends resource could be interesting too... Give a couple of them, so you can trade them for other resources. Like some of the BTS resources.

Hmm... That could work for river resources. Not sure about it though... Would mean every riverside city would have access.

Already saw, and planned to steal. :lol:

Considering how horribly expensive buildings are, some resources to boost their production would be good.

Prime Lumber and Excellent Stone, for instance. They should be fairly common, so it'd be rare for a civ not to have both so they need to have a cumulative effect on production. Make stone boost production for metal line buildings by 15% per resource and lumber by 5%, vice versa for archery line buildings. Most other buildings are boosted by 10% for each.

That's the kind of resource I'd like to add, actually. :lol:

Prime Lumber could be combined with Duskwood, for simplicity... A stone resource would be easy too.

I like that Idea.

Poisoned weapon for recons would be neat too.

Okay more ideas, NO clue how to make them work.


Mount type: +10% str mounted units (like nightmare sorta)
plant: increases friendly units in your culture healing by 5%


Would it be wrong to have sub races as a resource? I think having Hobbits as a resource would be hilarious. Can you make having a resource make a building be buildable. The pre-req for the building be ownership of the resource and then the buildings production be linked to that resource (ie you trade it away the building does nothing)

I am seeing Hobbit Bakeries that give
+1 :food: If you have Hobbits AND Corn
+1 :food: if you have Hobbits AND Wheat
+1 :) if you have Hobbits AND Apples

Gnome Tinkerers Hut
+1 :hammers: Gnomes AND Black Powerer
+1 :hammers: Gnomes AND Copper AND Iron

It wouldn't be wrong to make an improvement that represents integrating the race into you civilization as valued members of society, such as your bakery suggestion and a hobbit resource.

It would be wrong to make an improvement that spawns slaves for the owner.
It would be wrong to make an improvement that transforms the resource, like mana, into Hobbit slaves that allow Balseraph cities to build Hobbit cages.
It would be very wrong to make the Clan of Embers unique version of Smokehouse provide health with Hobbit slaves.
It would be exceedingly wrong to burn the hobbits on a pyre in order to give your entire civilization +1% research.

In all cases it would also be hilarious. I also want to see the cannibal hell-version of hobbits.

:lol: Oh, wow. You just made my day.
I'm liking this idea more and more. Is it possible to make an improvement civic dependent, so Hobbit Slave Pits are built by those running Slavery, and Hobbit Bakeries are built by those not running slavery?

First thing I thought when you said Hobbit Resource, was allow you to build little Hobbit towns with access to the resource...

But allowing little buildings like that would be interesting too. :lol:

Of course, Balseraph should have Hobbit slaves...

@Valkrionn: Well, yeah, Orbis' tech tree is a little bit extended compared to FF's but not more. It should though :p

And yeah, I was thinking about giving 3 Legends or so, like Ale.

Prehaps sea turtles as a production resource of coastal squares (think using sea turtles like cattle:lol: ).

To make slavery a little more interesting, perhaps a "Overseer" unit could be worth considering; available to civs with the Slavery civic, it would essentially be a commander restricted to only Slave units, increasing their workrate and decreasing chances of the slaves escaping. (Maybe even reduce the slaves' native workrate to the point where they'd need this unit to at all be effective?)

Perhaps something similar for regular workers, as well?

To make slavery a little more interesting, perhaps a "Overseer" unit could be worth considering; available to civs with the Slavery civic, it would essentially be a commander restricted to only Slave units, increasing their workrate and decreasing chances of the slaves escaping. (Maybe even reduce the slaves' native workrate to the point where they'd need this unit to at all be effective?)

Perhaps something similar for regular workers, as well?

Oooh... I actually like that quite a bit. :goodjob:

Oooh... I actually like that quite a bit. :goodjob:

It's one of the first things I thought of when I first saw the new Commanders, actually (I wonder what that says about me, really... :lol:).

Alright, here are my current resource ideas...



Coal

Coal + Iron = Steel, the new tier 3 metal. Mithril will be bumped up a tier, and made stronger and more rare.

Stone

Used to increase building speed.

Potato

Want some more Farm resources, mainly.

Lemon

We don't actually have any fruits, after all.

Olives
Apple

Ditto for both of these.

Duskwood

Increases building speed, provides extra strength to Archery units.

Hemlock

Adds extra strength to Recon units.



And some possible resources...



Tea

Luxury

Not sure we need this, I just like Tea. :lol:


Salt

Increases food saved after growth

Not sure this one is possible, or it would be in the first list.


Spices

Desert resource, as they only have Incense, Gold, and I believe Reagents. (And Camels if you're Malakim)

This would essentially be another commerce resource, like all other desert resources. Main reason it's only a 'possible'.


Silver

Luxury

Again, not needed, but we do have gold, might as well have silver. :p

Coal + Iron = Steel, the new tier 3 metal. Mithril will be bumped up a tier, and made stronger and more rare.


In what way is this different form the current Mithril?

I mean, by the time I have Mithril, I'll probably have iron anyway, so I'll only be looking for coal. Unless there is another step, you might as well rename mithril and call it a day.

It sounds like a good idea, even it it is functionally only the same as renaming mithril. If you do keep mithril as a tier four metal, please don't make it standard issue for free. Something like the equipment promotions would be good.

The resource ideas sound cool.

Of the above list, who else would like coal, for non-Steel purposes? Mechanos maybe get something special out of it at Steam Power, perhaps?

I am sure there's a Hemlock joke somehow possible at the advent of Philosophy, where you could get a free Great Sage who has to pop himself for a lightbulb whether you want to or not... heh.

But also a comment, that Salt idea, if it's workable, is pretty smart. Maybe it could simply cut the build time by 15% on something like the Smokehouse building? Much like how lots of units (Scion in particular) go faster if you have Ivory, Silk, other frilly stuff? Granted that a smoking process is not the same as salting, but you get the picture, it makes storing meats easier.

Really cool ideas, especially potatos :yumyum: and steel!

What about something like garlic (luxury resource), to :mad: those darn vampires? Or, perhaps, the most delicious food of all: watermelon!

Garlic should not repel FfH Vampires.



Our Vampires are different (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurVampiresAreDifferent). They are living humans who use a dark ritual to consume the souls of the victims they murder, in order to unnaturally extend their life, preserve their youth, and enhance their strength. (It is often stated that a vampire's cunning is his most dangerous attribute, but I don't think that is actually enhanced by anything other than centuries of experience without the memory problems associated with aging. It may also be due to vampires only sharing their ritual with those who have already proven to have such qualities as intelligence, determination, and subtlety, as they want capable vassals who know how to manipulate people and keep the dark gift a secret.) A single victim can keep a vampire well preserved for 20 or 30 years (I tend to think it basically adds how long the victim would have lasted until dying of natural causes to the vampire's life), so they don't really need to feed often. Many come to enjoy their feasts and extra strength though, and so many feed far more often than that just out of gluttony. Some enjoy drinking blood or indulge in cannibalism, but it is really not necessary. Most prefer more traditional feasts, and orgies of course.

They are quite mortal and vulnerable to the same injuries as any other human, but are quite strong and heal quickly when they have been consuming enough souls recently. Crosses, garlic, and holy water are completely useless, and sunlight is not lethal (at least unless exposed in such levels as could give a normal human deadly sunburn too). Direct sunlight is however very painful, and drains them of their extra strength. That doesn't mean they would be particularly weak, just not superhumanly strong. The typical vanity found in vampires means many of them exercise and train quite a bit and so would still be stronger than the average man, provided they can ignore the distraction of the pain.


This is described as a punishment inflicted by Lugus, God of Light, on Alexis and her followers for killing and consuming the soul of her first victim, an Acolyte of Lugus named Lanthis. I do not believe that revenge is in the nature of the god of light, truth, revelation, and epiphanies, and so conclude that this curse is really just the power of Lugus augmenting their usually depraved conscious (perhaps making them feel the same way their victims did as they lost their souls) with the clear goal that this would make them regret their actions and repent. I consider Lugus to be as forgiving and welcoming to the repentant as Sirona is, but he is also very strict and careful to test that the repentance is genuine before forgiving, unlike Sirona who freely offers forgiveness to the unrepentant and undeserving in hopes that it will encourage them to repent. The Sun sphere sees punishment as a part of a criminal's rehabilitation, whereas the Law sphere sees the damnation of an individual criminal as necessary in order to instill all the other members of a society with a fear of what would happen if one follows the bad example, and the Spirit sphere sees punishment as counterproductive, as sinners who fear punishment are less likely to confess their sins and make amends with those who would harm them for their past crimes, and so continue to compound their sins in order to avoid their just deserts. I'm pretty confident that the curse would be removed from any (ex-)vampire who stopped using the ritual and sought to serve the good, although it would likely linger so long as they drew some benefit from the ritual. That may mean that older vampires who are long past the point where their bodies can be sustained by purely natural means would have to allow themselves to wither and die of "starvation" in order to find redemption in the next life, but young vampires who have only murdered once or twice could just endure the pain for a few decades and then live the rest of their lives in peace and happiness. The temptation, memories, and regrets remain, but Lugus sees these as useful tools to make an individual understand the big picture, to know how to recognize right from wrong, to grow as a person, and to help lead others to salvation.


Kael has stated that in at least one of his D&D Campaigns a player asked if he could stock up on Garlic (and maybe Crosses and Holy Water too) before heading off to fight a vampire lord. Kael said "sure, why not," so the player focused entirely on these trinkets and was rather upset when Kael finally revealed, after the battle started, that such things are entirely useless against the vampires of Erebus.

In what way is this different form the current Mithril?

I mean, by the time I have Mithril, I'll probably have iron anyway, so I'll only be looking for coal. Unless there is another step, you might as well rename mithril and call it a day.

It sounds like a good idea, even it it is functionally only the same as renaming mithril. If you do keep mithril as a tier four metal, please don't make it standard issue for free. Something like the equipment promotions would be good.

Mostly the fact that you'd have to refine it, IE, build a building that removes coal and Iron, and provides Steel. Then Mithril can be made very strong, rare, and limited.

The resource ideas sound cool.

Of the above list, who else would like coal, for non-Steel purposes? Mechanos maybe get something special out of it at Steam Power, perhaps?

I am sure there's a Hemlock joke somehow possible at the advent of Philosophy, where you could get a free Great Sage who has to pop himself for a lightbulb whether you want to or not... heh.

But also a comment, that Salt idea, if it's workable, is pretty smart. Maybe it could simply cut the build time by 15% on something like the Smokehouse building? Much like how lots of units (Scion in particular) go faster if you have Ivory, Silk, other frilly stuff? Granted that a smoking process is not the same as salting, but you get the picture, it makes storing meats easier.

Well, they'll need it for railroads at the least.

As for salt... I'm fairly sure it IS possible, I just haven't checked.

Really cool ideas, especially potatos :yumyum: and steel!

What about something like garlic (luxury resource), to :mad: those darn vampires? Or, perhaps, the most delicious food of all: watermelon!

Neither of those have graphics, or I'd at least add Watermelon. :lol:

maybe make weapons from silver - keep units base attack and def but adds bonus versus undead. It should be bought in blacksmith and remove bronze/iron weapon promotion if the unit has it.

example :

warrior - base strenght : 3
warrior + bronze weapon : 4
warrior + iron weapon : 5
warrior + silver weapon : 3 + x% vs undead

you should check the starting position generating process.

out of the last 10 maps i created 9 were unplayable.
pure plains starts either with no food or max 1 sheep or no luxury resource within a hundred fields around the capital. i lost all of those games being steamrolled by some aggressive neighbour who came with more units than i couldve built in this time. thanks to their 75% upgrade discount those units werent warriors but archers.

i had no commerce, no production, no food and no happycap beyond 5 or 6 in all games except the one where i started next to patria, yggdrasil and loads of ressources and my neighbours started without any ressources

@Pohlmann: it depends on the mapscript more than on the mod. Which mapscript did you use?

tectonics 30% water large temperate + blessing of amathaon

Even with blessings? Looks either like bad luck or bug... or did you set up a custom game with more players than usual? It could be why you got crap.

no.
standard settings.

one game i started with 4 cows and 1 horse in pure plains and hills with only ivory 20 fields away and gems another 10 further away. but try to reach mining + hunting without any commerce boost in a reasonable time with hippus. u just cant.

the next time i started with 1 sheep and 2 times forest silk in pure plains. growing from pop 3 to 4 took 15 turns. went for cottages to at least have some prod and commerce. lead to having 3 cities in 110 turns and 10 warriors. when mechanos came with 15 archers.

another time i started with really nothing. 1 pig 10 fields away, the settler started on a hilltop so i could see about 100 fields in turn 1 and there were at least 95 fields plains 1 cow 1 pig 1 time cotton and that was it

etc etc...

What? Four cows? Huh, that sounds good to me.

But I may be biased since I nearly only play Orbis which has a very different tech tree. I daresay way better.

What? Four cows? Huh, that sounds good to me.

But I may be biased since I nearly only play Orbis which has a very different tech tree. I daresay way better.

yes. i found this one awesome aswell at first. but now imagine u started with agriculture and teched for animal husbandry. 20 turns gone.

now u tech for ancient charts. another 20 turns gone. then u go for mysticism/ education ~40 turns to finally have some science output.

so 70-90 turns are gone and u still have a happycap of 5, no commerce but u can produce a settler +3 warriors in 6 turns but dont have any gold for city maintenance.

then you can build cottages on plains/ use elder council for a sage and run out of food in all other cities at pop 3 or max 4 because every field has a food deficit unless u place a pasture on it.

120 turns gone and science goes up to whooping 30 beakers. mining researched. happycap goes up to 6.

140 turns: science output is at 50. still only having warriors. calabim show up with 20 warriors.

game over

p.s.: normally i win almost every game

also concerning the new thread with illians and seeing the wilboman icon being used for frostkin, why not grant wilboman those promotions, make religious law or fanaticism also a requirement and have a new nice giant on illian's side?

But also a comment, that Salt idea, if it's workable, is pretty smart. Maybe it could simply cut the build time by 15% on something like the Smokehouse building? Much like how lots of units (Scion in particular) go faster if you have Ivory, Silk, other frilly stuff? Granted that a smoking process is not the same as salting, but you get the picture, it makes storing meats easier.

I wonder if instead of making a smoke house build faster (that is what the stone resource is for right?) could salt make Smokehouse more effective. 30% food savings instead of 20%

So, in Diplomacy if I trade my Hobbit Resource away, does the other guy gain "Hobbits" "Hobbit Slaves" or "Deported Mongrels"?

I would say either...

Hobbits, and then it is dependant on that race on how they use them...

OR

They just get a Warf Rat resource that actually gives each city -1 :food:

Hobbit trading could cause a DoW tho... :D

another aspect i find unfitting is that atm cernunnos and his uberanimals are way more present in games than barbarians (bhall). after orthus is gone u hardly ever see tumtum, acheron sometimes blocks a player from the rest of the world but apart from that he's no threat just a last bastion of the barbarians.

why not bring other barbarian heroes into play? or other dragons/demons via events

this would improve the atmosphere even more.

also some auto-bloom would be sooo nice :D

maybe make weapons from silver - keep units base attack and def but adds bonus versus undead. It should be bought in blacksmith and remove bronze/iron weapon promotion if the unit has it.

example :

warrior - base strenght : 3
warrior + bronze weapon : 4
warrior + iron weapon : 5
warrior + silver weapon : 3 + x% vs undead

I'm a bit iffy on a weapon giving a bonus vs undead... There are already enough ways to kill undead, especially seeing as there are two civs for them. No other standard civs have to worry about promotions specifically targeting them.

you should check the starting position generating process.

out of the last 10 maps i created 9 were unplayable.
pure plains starts either with no food or max 1 sheep or no luxury resource within a hundred fields around the capital. i lost all of those games being steamrolled by some aggressive neighbour who came with more units than i couldve built in this time. thanks to their 75% upgrade discount those units werent warriors but archers.

i had no commerce, no production, no food and no happycap beyond 5 or 6 in all games except the one where i started next to patria, yggdrasil and loads of ressources and my neighbours started without any ressources

I haven't touched that, as it's done via mapscript. I've never played tectonics, I'd personally recommend ErebusContinent.

also concerning the new thread with illians and seeing the wilboman icon being used for frostkin, why not grant wilboman those promotions, make religious law or fanaticism also a requirement and have a new nice giant on illian's side?

That could be done pretty easily... Fits, too.

So, in Diplomacy if I trade my Hobbit Resource away, does the other guy gain "Hobbits" "Hobbit Slaves" or "Deported Mongrels"?

:lol:

another aspect i find unfitting is that atm cernunnos and his uberanimals are way more present in games than barbarians (bhall). after orthus is gone u hardly ever see tumtum, acheron sometimes blocks a player from the rest of the world but apart from that he's no threat just a last bastion of the barbarians.

why not bring other barbarian heroes into play? or other dragons/demons via events

this would improve the atmosphere even more.

also some auto-bloom would be sooo nice :D

I'm planning on buffing the barbs a bit more. At least, granting Orthus some command abilities, making TumTum stronger/easier to get, etc.

For some reason it's really hard to remember that Erebus vampires aren't classical vampires. :(

--

After two Gretchins attacked one of my cities, I realized something: why aren't there any Goblin heroes?

Also, how about making an event that can happen a few times each game that spawns a 'Warband' or something, with several Barbarian units together lead by unique barbarian (a la unique lair spawn units) which will rampage through Erebus and maybe even kill off the weaker civilizations.

Yay for a goblin hero!

For some reason it's really hard to remember that Erebus vampires aren't classical vampires. :(

--

After two Gretchins attacked one of my cities, I realized something: why aren't there any Goblin heroes?

Also, how about making an event that can happen a few times each game that spawns a 'Warband' or something, with several Barbarian units together lead by unique barbarian (a la unique lair spawn units) which will rampage through Erebus and maybe even kill off the weaker civilizations.

....... A goblin hero.... Hmm. Well, I'm already planning a Goblin Leader for the Clan (He'll have a new UB for the Warrens, granting quadruple production of goblin units. This will make his empire MUCH more consolidated [4 workers for the price of one. :p], but that will basically be his entire trait. Goblins will be stronger, advanced units may actually be weaker.), so a Hero for the Barbs could be done. I want to buff them anyway...

How about, adding 2 command limit to Orthus, but also adding this new goblin hero, who while weaker, has a command limit of 5, range 2, and grants his followers a high withdrawal promotion? I always see goblins as physically weaker, but more intelligent... The withdrawal is meant to show a small grasp of Tactics. :lol:

Might want the Goblin hero to grant his followers Mobility 1 or something, so they can keep up with him, unless he's followed by Wolf Riders initially. (Do Scouts have :move:2? I can't remember.)

The command ideas for Orthus and the Gobbie commander sounds good to me.

I can hardly wait to try the Goblin leader!

When making a mod for FF, how difficult would it be to make it FF+ compatible? I suppose this is a very broad question, but in what areas would the addition need to be tweaked for compatibility? -All? Just a tag or two in different areas? None at all?-


Thanks for the input.

Honestly, it's very easy. I haven't added any tags, or changed schemas... So all you'd really have to do is check to see if my changes interfere with yours. At the moment, FFPlus is almost entirely python/xml, with 2 edited files in the DLL... Both of which add 3 lines. Gameoptions. :lol:

So really, any module for FF will function for FFPlus... Python files would have to be merged to make sure nothing is overwritten, but that's not hard to do with WinMerge.

Sweet.

There'll be some new tags eventually of course. Either stolen from Opera, imported from other mods, or created fresh. ;p

First off I wanna thank you guys for putting the work into this mod-mod, FFH/FF/FF Plus have had my attention every minute the wife & job will allow since I discovered it two weeks back.

If this has already been addressed, then go ahead and ignore this post, heh.

My gripe with FFH (and CIV in general, really) is siege warfare. What kind of general sends a lone cannon to fire upon a fortified rifleman? Or a catapult against an archer up on wall?

The bombard feature was wasted, at least in my opinion. When your catapult is lobbing huge rocks at a settlement down the hill, why are you forced to choose between dealing collateral damage to it's defenders, and lowering it's defense? It should be doing both- smashing into the walls, knocking off archers and landing on the foot soldiers behind.

So here's my idea - merge bombard & the collateral damage of the catapult's attack. Have it lower the cities' defenses, and deal collateral damage with the Bombard ability. Maybe even give it a small chance of reducing population. After all, these things aren't that accurate.

But that sounds too powerful, right? So remove it's attack & retreat outright. Catapults didn't charge or retreat afaik, I imagine it's tough to rout with a several hundred pound wooden contraption. If somebody attacks a lone, unguarded catapult, they should capture it. Also, make catapults more expensive to make, seriously. Why does it take less time to design and craft a catapult than it does to hand a man a spear and point him towards the enemy?

I don't see this as imbalanced, since cat's already have 80% retreat, it's not often I lose one. And even when they're damaged I can continue to wreak havoc as they constantly retreat.

One other possibility would be to make them deal more/less damage based on the terrain. If a cat is on a hill, firing at a town beneath it, it's less likely to miss then if it were firing uphill, or through a jungle or forest. I would think that'd be tough to program though.

It should be the same for naval cannons as well.

Anyway, /endrant. Need to grab some coffee and get to work...

i have been wondering in some games when i spawn near guardian of pristine pass it come alive its supposed to do that i know but its supposed to not let ANY pass right so why not make it a super fort that's got a super fort commander which under control of agare's. when you kill it you can take over the fort so that way its not a one time thing its throughout the entire game i was thinking of as stats make it magic immune 10strength 0 movement and gain exp like a hero so its a hero super fort that's hard to kill cept in middle late game has any1 else thought of this?

My gripe with FFH (and CIV in general, really) is siege warfare. What kind of general sends a lone cannon to fire upon a fortified rifleman? Or a catapult against an archer up on wall?


This is an obvious concession to the abstractness of civ combat.

Let's just say that in order to do meaningful damage to the enemy, you need to be within range of retaliation, maybe a quick sortie by the defenders or the medieval equivalent of counter battery fire.


The bombard feature was wasted, at least in my opinion. When your catapult is lobbing huge rocks at a settlement down the hill, why are you forced to choose between dealing collateral damage to it's defenders, and lowering it's defense? It should be doing both- smashing into the walls, knocking off archers and landing on the foot soldiers behind.


Because huge rock only hit one man at a time and take lot's of time to reload. One man is essentially no damage for a combat unit.

Bushels of fist-size rocks on the other hand, hit lots of people at a time but does negligible damage to fortifications.

There is a similar distinction between solid shot and grapeshot for cannons.


But that sounds too powerful, right? So remove it's attack & retreat outright. Catapults didn't charge or retreat afaik, I imagine it's tough to rout with a several hundred pound wooden contraption. If somebody attacks a lone, unguarded catapult, they should capture it.

Withdrawal isn't rout.

The withdrawal of catapults represents the fact that they out range anything else on the battlefield.* If the enemy is making a sortie that looks dangerous they have lots of time to pack up and withdraw behind friendly lines.

*The magical rituals that take a a week to complete and conjures fireballs and spectres and rings of fire out-range catapults, but that's not battlefield magic. Ordinary battle magic is standard range.

Also, make catapults more expensive to make, seriously. Why does it take less time to design and craft a catapult than it does to hand a man a spear and point him towards the enemy?


It doesn't. A warrior costs 25:hammers:, a catapult costs 90:hammers:, I think. Could be 60:hammers:**. A catapult also requires a specialized building. Also, I don't think they design each catapult.

** Should be 90:hammers:. All other tier 2 specialist units costs 90:hammers:.

Am I just not seeing it on the list, or is there no "unrestricted leaders" option with this FF+?

I blocked the option. Many of the new leaders have traits that are designed for a specific civ, and shouldn't really be used for others.

To reenable it, just open up gameoptionsinfos.XML, search for unrestricted, and change 'Visible=0' to a 1.

Ah, that would explain it. Thanks!

Can I request we steal... Ahem, borrow the Peaceful trait for the Elohim. It really promotes a builder style gameplay for the Elohim. I suspect it uses DLL modification though since new tags were used. I cannot do DLL changes yet, so I am requesting yay :)

If we are to include Hobbits and Gnomes as resources, I would make them very, VERY rare. Probably on a Rarer-than-mithril level of rarity. Because I seriously doubt that little "Deported Mongrels" can survive the Age of Ice without getting eaten.

Also, Hell Terrain + Hobbits = Gollum/Smeagol.

the slavertrait: it's nice to have some slaves but isnt this sort of weak? u got loads of useless costly units who hardly do anything at a time when u usually have more than enough workers. i think their should be a slavemarket where u can sell those slaves so it would fit the khazad theme (instead of metals->money u have bodies->money)

and pls change the animal ai so that they prefer leaving your culture instead of killing your workers. auto-route workers always suicide into these animals.

and the goblin hero should better be strong, like an ogre or something where those cunning goblins gather round and seek protection from.

also one raider hero or two via events. a troop of wolf riders pillaging your lands lead by a wolf with high withdrawal -> hard to get rid of

1 About the background of the Legion of D'Tesh, i don't understand how function their slavery system. I suppose the slaves are undead, but are they zombies, spirits, others thing?.

2 About the gameplay of the Legion of D'Tesh, i have a proposition. I don't know well how function the game mechanism and if the proposition if possible, but what do you think of the idea to abandon the fallow trait and give them this trait :

2.1 There is no health disorder in cities but the more there is population, the more there is unhappiness (like Scions when they have necropolis). The environnement has no effect (forest, jungle, flood plains etc.).

2.2 The health problems can only be caused by population (the jungle, flood plains, the forest and others things don't change the health).

2.3 Every D'tesh unit wich kill an ennemy unit bring "food" (the charnel enveloppe and the spirit material) to the nearer D'Tesh city. It need a D'Tesh influence zone at least at 10 cases from the ennemie unit who has been killed. 8 killed ennemies = 1 population growth. A chosen of D'Tesh need to kill 4 ennemies for 1 population growth. An council of D'Tesh need to kill 2 ennemies for 1 population growth.

2.4 Razing a town bring one population point per one population in the town (like now) but it need a D'Tesh influence zone at least at 10 cases. Watcher are able to build forts which create influence zone. The influence zone will receive the body and soul material and send it to the nearest D'Tesh town). This idea is here to prevent the D'Tesh to attack a long distance nations or wander recon units anywhere to gather on barbarians or animals. They sould build outside forts and defend them.

2.5 Other proposition : The recognition D'Tesh units has Silence of Death only in D'Tesh territory and neutral territory because this effect is overpowered.

2.6 The searing heat effect only work inside influence zone (to prevent from declaring war if you move a watcher in another nation's territory).

If we are to include Hobbits and Gnomes as resources, I would make them very, VERY rare. Probably on a Rarer-than-mithril level of rarity. Because I seriously doubt that little "Deported Mongrels" can survive the Age of Ice without getting eaten.

Also, Hell Terrain + Hobbits = Gollum/Smeagol.

I think some resources that are so rare there is only 1 or 2 in the world and may not even show up every game at all could be really neat.

the question the is: Is the effort to make them worth it?

Can I request we steal... Ahem, borrow the Peaceful trait for the Elohim. It really promotes a builder style gameplay for the Elohim. I suspect it uses DLL modification though since new tags were used. I cannot do DLL changes yet, so I am requesting yay :)

I'll look at it... Planning on stealing a bit of her DLL work anyway. :lol:

If we are to include Hobbits and Gnomes as resources, I would make them very, VERY rare. Probably on a Rarer-than-mithril level of rarity. Because I seriously doubt that little "Deported Mongrels" can survive the Age of Ice without getting eaten.

Also, Hell Terrain + Hobbits = Gollum/Smeagol.

Hadn't thought about the Smeagol connection there... :eek:

Was thinking I could make this into a UF, providing one Hobbit resource. Then have the buildings it provides also provide a hobbit resource, to show them expanding into your civ... :p Mostly so you can trade them, of course.

the slavertrait: it's nice to have some slaves but isnt this sort of weak? u got loads of useless costly units who hardly do anything at a time when u usually have more than enough workers. i think their should be a slavemarket where u can sell those slaves so it would fit the khazad theme (instead of metals->money u have bodies->money)

and pls change the animal ai so that they prefer leaving your culture instead of killing your workers. auto-route workers always suicide into these animals.

and the goblin hero should better be strong, like an ogre or something where those cunning goblins gather round and seek protection from.

also one raider hero or two via events. a troop of wolf riders pillaging your lands lead by a wolf with high withdrawal -> hard to get rid of

Hmm... Never thought Slaver was weak. :lol: I guess it can be a bit weak later on though... I'll allow the Khazad a Slave Trade building, requires Evil, comes at... Currency or Mathematics. I'm thinking Mathematics, because then it's on the same line as their Trebuchets and Cannons... Not out of the way.

Animals won't come into your borders, unless you expand around them. I'm okay with it... Workers should be protected anyway, for the random Orcs/Demons.

I'd rather have the Hero itself weak, but smart enough to gather strong barbarians around him. A Wolf Rider, for mobility? Won't make him any stronger than that.

A few more barb heroes can't hurt. :p

1 About the background of the Legion of D'Tesh, i don't understand how function their slavery system. I suppose the slaves are undead, but are they zombies, spirits, others thing?.

They're animated bodies. Actually, in my version D'tesh cuts a deal with Laroth (Archmage trying to take over the precept of Death)... D'tesh gets the bodies, Laroth gets the souls. Thanatos is actually Laroth's servent, sent down to aide D'tesh.


2 About the gameplay of the Legion of D'Tesh, i have a proposition. I don't know well how function the game mechanism and if the proposition if possible, but what do you think of the idea to abandon the fallow trait and give them this trait :

2.1 There is no health disorder in cities but the more there is population, the more there is unhappiness (like Scions when they have necropolis). The environnement has no effect (forest, jungle, flood plains etc.).

2.2 The health problems can only be caused by population (the jungle, flood plains, the forest and others things don't change the health).

2.3 Every D'tesh unit wich kill an ennemy unit bring "food" (the charnel enveloppe and the spirit material) to the nearer D'Tesh city. It need a D'Tesh influence zone at least at 10 cases from the ennemie unit who has been killed. 8 killed ennemies = 1 population growth. A chosen of D'Tesh need to kill 4 ennemies for 1 population growth. An council of D'Tesh need to kill 2 ennemies for 1 population growth.

2.4 Razing a town bring one population point per one population in the town (like now) but it need a D'Tesh influence zone at least at 10 cases. Watcher are able to build forts which create influence zone. The influence zone will receive the body and soul material and send it to the nearest D'Tesh town). This idea is here to prevent the D'Tesh to attack a long distance nations or wander recon units anywhere to gather on barbarians or animals. They sould build outside forts and defend them.

2.5 Other proposition : The recognition D'Tesh units has Silence of Death only in D'Tesh territory and neutral territory because this effect is overpowered

2.6 The searing heat effect only work inside influence zone (to prevent from declaring war if you move a watcher in another nation's territory).

I think I'll keep them Fallow, mostly because they are unable to use the soul to 'feed' on, and the body is destined to be animated by D'tesh.

As for the Silence of Death promo... I kind of agree with you. What I'm thinking of, is nerfing them for D'tesh, and nerfing Arcane for Thanatos... Mailbox had intended them to use pretty much just Arcane units. I think a 75% damage limit for the Recon would work... Not sure what to do for the Arcane. Of course, this does NOT apply to their respective leaders.

Searing Heat... May not be around too much longer. :mischief: I've been waiting on Jean Elcard to finish his terraforming system for FlavourMod... Once he does, all D'teshi territory will convert to Wastelands naturally.

I think some resources that are so rare there is only 1 or 2 in the world and may not even show up every game at all could be really neat.

the question the is: Is the effort to make them worth it?

Hmm... Depends on the reason. Hobbits would just be entertaining. :lol: Although I'd need a set of Good buildings, a set of Evil buildings, and a set of Neutral buildings... Although the Neutrals could probably build a few of the good/evil ones.

I think some resources that are so rare there is only 1 or 2 in the world and may not even show up every game at all could be really neat.

the question the is: Is the effort to make them worth it?

I think having the resource be a good benefit early on so you can see if you have it be nice, to prevent climbing the tech tree and realizing you dont have the appropriate resource. But I think that making them rare and non-Capital Site spawning would make them worth it if they provided +1 :) and +1:health: (Representing "Our Hobbits make us laugh!" and "They bake delicious pastries!")

Or, for evil: "Hobbit's torture best" and "Hobbits bake deliciously".
Also, It should be marked more clearly that Thrall Militia is not free upkeep-maybe make the Thrall promotions visible.

Updated the first post with some ideas. The Goblin hero and the Khazad Slave Trade building are definitely going in. Might even come out as modules... :mischief:

Some of the other ideas are in the possible list... If enough people want them, or they catch my or Vermicious' attention, they'll go in.

I think that Khadi arcane units should get +1 atk (fits well with ambition which gives extra xp from combat). It is not too powerfull, but, I think it helps with getting your early game adepts the xp they need to get to upgrading level.

File this under the topic of "aimless feedback without proposed solution."

Flying units generally - sometimes I wonder whether in some cases they ought to be capable of defense, in other words, simply ineligible as a target.

Thought crossed my mind while playing a Mechanos game with lots of blimps, zeppelins, dirigible fleets and the like. I get that in cases they can bombard stuff, but if they end the turn on something other than a peak, melee troops, sea serpents, whatever is capable of using "that kind of tile", is capable of making an attack.

Picture standing in a stadium with both a sword, the Goodyear blimp overhead... I don't think you're going to have much luck slaying the blimp.

That said, lots of critters with the Flying promotion may not be flying at crazy altitude, melee and mounted types (angels, the 4 horsemen) may be treetop level or less, skirmishing with ground forces in a much more personal way, as hand-to-hand combat is how you'd envision damage dealing taking place.

I do see that some flying things have defensive penalties, like dirigibles having -25% vs. archery units, but do wonder if they ought have other bonus type stuff, for non-ranged combat that others may want to inflict on 'em. Again, even Saverous, waving Orthus's Axe over this head, isn't going to do much to harm a Zeppelin.

I don't have much in terms of "solution thoughts", though maybe big flyers becoming vulnerable to all sorts of attacks after they themselves make a non-ranged attack could make some sense, much like how mounted troops get a fatigue negative promotion so they can't withdraw if they're cornered, perhaps flying units once they've exposed themselves, are vulnerable for a turn to counterattack. Maybe only good for certain unit classes, or races like "Mechanical" or whatever the Kurio flying boats are. Maybe angels and other things that fly (Flesh Golems?) end up unchanged, or enjoying a lesser version of this "you can't attack me unless I make myself vulnerable" scene. Alternately when one of these units is "Healing" fortified someplace, you might assume they're vulnerable, moored to the ground with a work crew swarmed around them or something like that.

Again, I know its aimless type feedback, but I do wonder if there's any similar sentiment out there, if people tremble in fear at a stack of lizardmen stalking a BLIMP, though it may make no sense. *shrugs* I'd be more worried about a brigade of arquebusiers shooting at it I guess, easier to envision why that'd endanger your flying asset.

I'd call for the Deruptus Brewery House's model to be replaced by the one Orbis has; it looks way better.

Or if you want to overhaul it completely, you could pimp the alcohol industry:

1. Bring the Deruptus Brewery House to World Wonder levels (keep the alcohol resource but with better commerce bonuses, +GPP merchant points, +1 happiness civ-wide, whatever).

2. Intergrate normal breweries into the game, Orbis-style (+1 happiness per grain resource); except no riverside requirement, no bonus experience to dwarves, and with an unhealthy penalty. This way, the health minus won't be a moot point due to sewers negating the penalty.

Overhauling the flight mechanic like that is a bit beyond me atm, sadly. I like the idea of it though, so long as the flying units affected are also restricted in attacking. The moment they come down, they can be destroyed.

I didn't know Orbis had a different model... Will look at it. As for normal breweries, I'm not sure... Though I do miss them. :lol: At the least, I need to change the dwarven xp code from Breweries to check for the Alcohol resource...

Also, if you're going for the new fruit resources and spices and stuff, you could do an overhaul for the corporations.

Orbis has really good economic depth with all its corporations and the resource-spawning executives; you could get some ideas from them.

If you want a Fall Further touch to it, you could give each corporation building its set of buyable promotions; I can think some stuff up if you need some.

I wouldn't really put too much thought into how the battles go down for units, what with :spear:

If a flying unit is attacked, it is under circumstances that it allowed itself to be attacked, no matter how slim the odds are of it happening.

Just give flying units a small withdrawal chance to represent the improved mobility, plus remove the penalty for attacking over a river if that's not the case already.

Fair enough, maybe it is just another spear vs. tank problem. *shrugs*

Agreed though that something like a token level of withdrawal % might make sense for flyguys, i.e., if you have the Flying promotion, you also have... +10% withdrawal or something. Again, just seeing these blimps and whatnot cruising around all of Erebus, but still subject to stacks of sleazy goblins, rubbed me the wrong way. No different though than a guy with a flint tipped spear warding off mechanized infantry I suppose.

is there a place were i can get a full list of all the civilizations strenghts/weaknesses, playstyles and maby a quick starting strat. there are like 28 civs, and i would like to figure out what ones i would like the most before i choose one for my next big game

EDIT: short of that, i mainly like to play a defensive game, i usually wait to conquer untill i already have late game techs, and i also try to have as much :hammers: and :science: as possible from each of hopefully many citys :D any civ suggestions?

Regarding improvement tweak add on it seems quarries are pretty overpowered. They make workshops completely useless and give just as much production on a flat grassland than a grass mine while having a bigger food/gold bonus. AI never builds it either.

Regarding improvement tweak add on it seems quarries are pretty overpowered. They make workshops completely useless and give just as much production on a flat grassland than a grass mine while having a bigger food/gold bonus. AI never builds it either.

Isnt that because Quarries are the land equivalent of Fishing Nets, in that they can only be placed on a resource (IE: Marble), in which case that might be why you dont see them being built by the AI?

Isnt that because Quarries are the land equivalent of Fishing Nets, in that they can only be placed on a resource (IE: Marble), in which case that might be why you dont see them being built by the AI?

With the improvement tweaks, they can be constructed anywhere (as can all improvements that depend on resources, including fishing boats). They also have a chance to spawn the marble resource (along with sheut stone and partian artifacts, but that's less relevant, usually).

what improvement tweak? did you cheat or something?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326053

The second addon. Basically it makes all improvements that depend on resources buildable anywhere, and adds a small chance of them spawning one of the resources they use (yields have also been tweaked somewhat, to make them more balanced).

I don't get how it can be balanced. There's no drawback. Seems silly to be able to build plantations wherever you want...

...on irrigated tiles, but whatever.

"More balanced" != "balanced". I was just trying to explain what the addon does (and the yields of some of the improvements have been altered, presumably for balance reasons).

Okay, sorry, plantations on irrigated tiles, my bad.

I got that we were trying to explain what the addon does. I just haven't realized before that you could place some bonus-improvements on non-bonus tile. There's one easy way to balance this out though: leave the bonus-improvements on bonus tile.

I think these 2 mods would fit in perfectly:

New sentry actions for units
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298512

Multiple Production Mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326545

Yes, but plantations are only good for +1:commerce: +1:food: (I think) at base. What's so rediculess about that? They also don't get much better.
If it's the spawing that you think is un-balanced, the FF+ dosn't have anything to boast spawn rate, unlike Orbis.

Well, I don't see what you're referring to. The executives of some guilds maybe? Those that can discover new resources? If so, I don't like that mechanic either. I don't like it when you can pop resources out of nowhere instead of just doing how you can with what you have.

I do like the "x% chance to discover y resource" with an improvement though.

No, I meant how nature magic incereases spawn rate. Also, no, executive can't do that. Thankfully. Al I every got in Orbis was Crazed anyway.

Well, I don't see what you're referring to. The executives of some guilds maybe? Those that can discover new resources? If so, I don't like that mechanic either. I don't like it when you can pop resources out of nowhere instead of just doing how you can with what you have.

I do like the "x% chance to discover y resource" with an improvement though.

Just to be clear, it is a add on module JUST SO feedback and balancing can take place. The people that don't like it don't currently have to play with it.

I LOVE the idea myself. I think they MAY need to tone down the chance to spawn resources. Right now (with enough workers) you can fill the area between BFCs with improvements and watch as they slowly pop new resources. it isn't FAST. I have gotten maybe 3-4 a game. As it is currently written if you use an improvement that can pop a resource in a BFC you are actually hurting yourself. He balanced the improvements that spawn resources so that they are balanced ON a resource. If you don't have a resource then you are not getting much in the way of production from that square.

My feedback is that is stays as an add-on.

I don't get how it can be balanced. There's no drawback. Seems silly to be able to build plantations wherever you want...


Not much sillier than being able to build a farm/town/workshop/mill anywhere. A plantation is just a farm that is growing a cash crop rather than foodstuffs. :) The improvements are extensively changed/rebalanced in the tweak module. The goal is to have more interesting choices when developing your BFC. I grew very tired of cottage-spam and aristo-farm spam.

The resource spawning has very little practical impact at its current rate. 5 plantations will spawn one resource every 500 turns, on the average. :)

i do like the idea of building improvements on water tiles, but other than that i agree with opera

Not much sillier than being able to build a farm/town/workshop/mill anywhere. A plantation is just a farm that is growing a cash crop rather than foodstuffs. :) The improvements are extensively changed/rebalanced in the tweak module. The goal is to have more interesting choices when developing your BFC. I grew very tired of cottage-spam and aristo-farm spam.

I very much agree; this system is much more interesting this way.

Regarding improvement tweak add on it seems quarries are pretty overpowered. They make workshops completely useless and give just as much production on a flat grassland than a grass mine while having a bigger food/gold bonus. AI never builds it either.


I can look at that. I seem to recall (don't have the file in front of me) that workshops were +3 hammers -1 food. That is 4 hammers on a plain...pretty solid.

Regarding improvement tweak add on it seems quarries are pretty overpowered. They make workshops completely useless and give just as much production on a flat grassland than a grass mine while having a bigger food/gold bonus. AI never builds it either.

I don't agree here.. They make workshops useless if A. The Quarry is on marble and B. You don't have the Industry civic. As is, I think they're fine.

I don't get how it can be balanced. There's no drawback. Seems silly to be able to build plantations wherever you want...

Okay, sorry, plantations on irrigated tiles, my bad.

I got that we were trying to explain what the addon does. I just haven't realized before that you could place some bonus-improvements on non-bonus tile. There's one easy way to balance this out though: leave the bonus-improvements on bonus tile.

Well, I don't see what you're referring to. The executives of some guilds maybe? Those that can discover new resources? If so, I don't like that mechanic either. I don't like it when you can pop resources out of nowhere instead of just doing how you can with what you have.

I do like the "x% chance to discover y resource" with an improvement though.

You realize the "chance to discover" is what brought about this module, right? All improvements that improve a resource can discover that resource. That's the main reason Plantations and so on can be built anywhere now. They're still balanced towards resources and are nearly useless off one.

Yes, I realize that. Too many improvements can discover resources and this I don't like.

Difference of opinion, I suppose. Personally, I like it.

I like it too :)

What did you think of the mods I suggested?

guardian of the pristine pass 4 tiles away from my capital city at beginning of the game = auto loose lol xD

guardian of the pristine pass 4 tiles away from my capital city at beginning of the game = auto loose lol xD

My hate for the Guardian is limitless. Auto-loss early, irrelevant late. Always boring. MEH. :mad:


It could at the very least be an epic dungeon and/or provide mana. Or be a super-fort that can be claimed.

I think it should be a super fort ( prehaps with a respawning gargoyal under your control...:) )

Maybe if the Luchiurp discovered it, they might get a happy special result, though nothing crazy like their own free gargoyles to terrorize the early game. Maybe a gargoyle who acts as a fort commander on the spot. Immovable but useful as a defender.

Reminds me, and I forget if anyone else suggested it elsewhere in the thread... does anyone miss Barbatos? Or when Acheron didn't have the Held promo and winged meteors at everyone? A game option of "Extra Monstery [x]" might be fun. Guarantees Gurid, Leviathan, Barbatos, Margalard, Leviathan, and anything else that has remote chance of popping up for event based heroes (Bandit Nietz, Mary Morbus, the Gaelan chain?) all happen or at least are available somehow for someone.

I have seen all of those "chance" encoutners in at least one of my last 3 games... and most of them in every game. they all seem to have a 70% chance top happen now.

I had at LEAST one of the three games where I had every one of them occur.

I have seen all of those "chance" encoutners in at least one of my last 3 games... and most of them in every game. they all seem to have a 70% chance top happen now.

I had at LEAST one of the three games where I had every one of them occur.


My current test game (working on balance changes to Jots based on feedback) I have both giant monkeys wandering my border.

They like the taste of troll, apparently. :(

I did notice the big monkeys are more common, but it might be interesting to know if, guaranteed, they WOULD pop up someplace. Might incent you to groom a ranger, save a promo for "Subdue Beasts" when the time is right.

Reminds me I was sort of sad to have a Dirigible fleet full of Howitzers casually gun down a highly promoted Leviathan, from full health to zero with one bombardment. Waste of XP, how'd I know he'd go all the way to 0.0! Woops, Leviathan sandwiches for all tonight...

Request: Somnium for all?
In a multiplayer game(and single player, but that is another story), Somnium is used to garner a better rep with the AI; while a player is doing this, all of the other players are yelling at the first player for playing a game of Somnium during their pleasant game of Fall Further Plus.

So how to remedy this? Not sure. Maybe have it three handed? No, that would be hell to code. Ah, let all other players have the chance to bet on the match, and if they do bet, let them watch the game.

I like it too :)

What did you think of the mods I suggested?

They look interesting, although I'm a bit iffy on the production one... Mostly because of fallow civs. D'tesh could pop 10 a turn. :eek:

My hate for the Guardian is limitless. Auto-loss early, irrelevant late. Always boring. MEH. :mad:

It could at the very least be an epic dungeon and/or provide mana. Or be a super-fort that can be claimed.

I could see it being an epic fort... The thing usually pops up in a pass anyway, would be useful. How about this:

Each Guardian spawns with a different item fragment. If you can collect all three fragments, you can combine them into a decent armour, as well as allowing any unit carrying it to claim the Pristinus Pass, receiving a Gargoyle Commander and making the Pass into an uber fort.

Edit: Actually, how about a trade off... Each item individually is decent, but the combined item is only as strong as the others. Only plus is you can claim. So three decent items, or one decent and an amazing fort.

Should make spawning next to it interesting at least... :lol:

Maybe if the Luchiurp discovered it, they might get a happy special result, though nothing crazy like their own free gargoyles to terrorize the early game. Maybe a gargoyle who acts as a fort commander on the spot. Immovable but useful as a defender.

Reminds me, and I forget if anyone else suggested it elsewhere in the thread... does anyone miss Barbatos? Or when Acheron didn't have the Held promo and winged meteors at everyone? A game option of "Extra Monstery [x]" might be fun. Guarantees Gurid, Leviathan, Barbatos, Margalard, Leviathan, and anything else that has remote chance of popping up for event based heroes (Bandit Nietz, Mary Morbus, the Gaelan chain?) all happen or at least are available somehow for someone.

Honestly, I DO miss Barbatos. I'm thinking it would be fun to copy Cyther's Guardians, giving all Epic Lairs a powerful guardian.

I have seen all of those "chance" encoutners in at least one of my last 3 games... and most of them in every game. they all seem to have a 70% chance top happen now.

I had at LEAST one of the three games where I had every one of them occur.

IIRC, they always had that chance to spawn but it was broken. Was fixed in the new FfH or FF. Either way, it carried over. :lol:

Request: Somnium for all?
In a multiplayer game(and single player, but that is another story), Somnium is used to garner a better rep with the AI; while a player is doing this, all of the other players are yelling at the first player for playing a game of Somnium during their pleasant game of Fall Further Plus.

So how to remedy this? Not sure. Maybe have it three handed? No, that would be hell to code. Ah, let all other players have the chance to bet on the match, and if they do bet, let them watch the game.

Hmm. Allowing players to bet on someone else's game would be interesting, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Something to pitch
to Xienwolf I think. :lol:

On the discussion of super barbs for the various unique features, It would be rather cool if they would be commanders as well as be super strong; along with this, the super barbs could have a rather decent chance of spawning mini-baddies under their command; that combined with an older suggestion, of having feature spawned units stuck to patrol a nearby range of the specific feature that they spawned from, would be cool as well; taking off from that idea, it would be awesome if that patrol range grew as the power of the feature-based army grew.

Even non-feature based super barbs could use a similar mechanic if this was able work for the feature-based super barbs. -I just imagine an army of gretchin sized orangutans running circles around Margalard as he rampages about the wilderness.

Well, for epic dungeons, it would keep the AI from suiciding on Bradlines well at least.

Request: Make held units not freak out automated units. Playing with Mana Guardians means that you will have to micromanage every worker action when building near any of the semi-common mana-nodes -this is annoying-.

I did this myself. Add -500 movement to held promo, and there you go, automated units don't care about mana gaurds anymore.