I noticed that comments about gameplay balance are spread around bit. I thought that perhaps making a dedicated thread could help Ahwaric keep track of them (or at least get them out of the bug thread). As well as allowing us players to discuss the ups and downs of Orbis.

Game balance is subjective and, as always, the vision of the mod creator is what matters in the end.

Orbis 24 B

- Guilds -> Three Field Order & The Prospectors guild

Rain and gloom during my vacation makes for an excellent opportunity to run a very long game. I noticed just how strong the Three-Field Order and the Prospectors Guild are.

The issue is not the guild bonus in itself. It's that the guilds both have buildings that directly adds to this bonus (so it's actually 10% stronger) and that their UUs can spawn resources that adds to the guild bonus. Not to mention that farms and quarries can spawn these resources on their own. Also, I can build castles to harvest these resources far away from my core empire. Trade brings in even more.

In a short game this isn't much of an issue but in a long game this bonus can easily run into +30 :food: & :hammers: or higher. It's a great way expand your empire, to say the least, and it would not be a problem if I had to fight, trade or expand to get it. Heck, it's a nice viable game winning strategy all on it's own. I just feel that it's too easy to achieve it.

Suggestion: Nerf the bonus granted by these two guilds by 25%. That their UUs can spawn new resources is a great bonus already.

- Units -> Assassins

Am I the only one that feel that assassins are way overpowered? It's a unit that targets the weakest unit in the enemy stack. Why does it need to be strong enough to take on heavy infantry? With the ranged attack feature in Orbis it's very easy to whittle down any enemy stack to the point that assassins can wreak havoc.

Suggestion: Nerf attack strength by -2, putting an assassin on par with a hunter and block the ability to get the Subdue Animal promotion. This nerf will also bring the Svartalfar in line somewhat.

- Units -> Adepts, Mages & Archmages

Seriously underpowered units in Orbis. Brought on by the fact that Ahwaric have already improved all other unit classes (improved promotions, great general buildings, stronger economies) but spells remain in their FFH shape.

I find that I never actually build these units. It's a waste of time and effort because when I finally have to tech the create archmages I no longer have a reason to field them. Just like in the D&D rpg, that lies at the root of FFH, mages are outclassed by clerics, though they are more flexible.

Suggestion: I'm stumped to tell the truth. I can't ask Ahwaric to rework the spells, which is likely a huge undertaking, just to make mages useful. And I wouldn't know where to start since I don't have any idea what role the units are supposed to fill. Hopefully other players have given this more thought.

- Leader Traits -> Strong traits & weak traits

This is where I think a lot of playtesting and feedback is needed. A lot of the changes Ahwaric has done really makes Orbis very different from FFH. Small things add up and leader traits are difficult to balance as it is.

I've noticed that Charismatic leaders are doing incredibly well in my games, especially by late game. Most likely this is due to various xp bonuses (buildings, civics) working well with the faster leveling.

Peace with animals is a very strong trait right now considering the powerful animal faction. The Ljosalfar dominates every game I've encountered them in so far. Compared to animals the barbarians and demons are a fairly static challenge. Since animals grow in power, and spawn in larger numbers then the others, this gives Peace with animals two great powers. Fast early expansion and, perhaps unexpectedly, a strong defense from other civs. When i launched a major attack on the Ljosalfar last night I didn't expect to be set upon by hordes of barbarian animals. Between that and the spawning of treants from ancient forests one can say that the elves were a lot better protected then I expected.

The Minor trait is very easy to compensate for. Perhaps too easy. The minor AI leaders tend to found a religion and go Spiritual or get Raiders early from their usual pillaging sprees.

Suggestion: Merely the observation that Charismatic and Peace with animals are traits that are stronger then expected. The Minor leader feature is a lot of fun but perhaps need to be revised slightly both allow the AI a bit more flexibility and let the player get specific traits, rather then from random chance.

Nerfing --- I'm generally against any nerfing because all of the games that use nerfing seem to just have one balance issue after another... meaning that once they nerf one thing something else takes the top of the pile and that too must be nerfed. Especially with this game, many things are dependent on luck, a beelined tech, or the AI not fully utilizing some mechanic. With that said, I'm also not suggesting that a nerf is never appropriate.

However, in most cases I would rather see things balanced with counters. For example if assassins are too powerful (which they certainly can be) I would rather make guardian easier to gain than to make them weaker.

I bring this up only cause I have seen many games nerf things in the name of balance only to ruin many of the cool mechanics the game had designed. The original concept of FFH was to have many things overpowered equally which has been pretty successful.

So I'm not shooting down anything mentioned, they may be great changes... I'm just reminding people who post and read to take caution in what they think should be nerfed cause the result may be a nicely balanced 'bleh' game.

Easier to achieve guard units (better said: the promotion) certainly would be nice. Had a nice LAN game with Doviello (allied) and Amurites (me). When we declared war on the Ljosalfar, we blocked some passes in the mountain ranges with a combination of heavy infantry and some of my mages (didn't have archmages yet). Well, that didn't hold long. In about 3 rounds all mages were massacred by the dozens of assassins running around, even the main stack guarded by some "guard" infantry got killed as the assassins just overran the guards...:(

And I don't think it should be necessary to build (and train!) dozens of guard units for every mage you build, considering that mages (even as amurite) are not that great.

And I don't think it should be necessary to build (and train!) dozens of guard units for every mage you build, considering that mages (even as amurite) are not that great.

Thanks Senshi. I was hoping someone else would make my point for me. :D I think you've captured the issue in a nutshell in the quoted remark. I don't really know what a good solution would be though.

Either Assassins gets a general nerf or the Guardsman promotion grants a unit a massive bonus (say +50%) against Assassins, if possible, or Recon units in general. The attacking player would then have to counter that unit with something else, probably another melee infantry.

And be glad you were up against the Ljosalfar. The Svartalfar recon units are nigh unstoppable in a one on one fight. Those extra +2 attack strength really adds up when the unit gains percentage bonuses.

As bizarre as it might sound I found that a good counter against Assassins are ranged units, particularly Crossbowmen, as the defensive strikes happens right before combat takes place. After a while the Archmages in my stack had taken out so many perforated Assassins that they were strong enough to take them on without bodyguards! :crazyeye:

Not the most intuitive counter perhaps but it seems to work.

arcanes need buffs, for example, why not have fire 2 give +0/1 fire buff? not over powered but would make mages more likely to survive

arcanes need buffs, for example, why not have fire 2 give +0/1 fire buff? not over powered but would make mages more likely to survive

something like this would be cool to add. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=324171) Or I think it would be fun to add elemental affinity that is capped. I think I was reading somewhere that people are modding a cap to affinity somewhere. This could be used to make all kinds of improvements to units and more unique items.

something like this would be cool to add. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=324171) Or I think it would be fun to add elemental affinity that is capped. I think I was reading somewhere that people are modding a cap to affinity somewhere. This could be used to make all kinds of improvements to units and more unique items.
indeed....

As long as individual units can be set to unlimited affinity.

First, a follow up of previous thoughts. I agree mages are abit weak but I still find myself using them for a few nifty buffs. I would like to see a 'combat' buff go with every spell learned, I think this would help make mages more reliable. Example... Fire spells you get Blaze, Fireball, Summon Fire Elemental at ranks 1-3 respectively. Along with the spells how about we have progressive bonuses? 1 - 25% resist fire, 2 - +1 Fire Damage, 3 - 25% Defensive Strike (Fire Shield) ...

Those bonuses could be pretty standard with all elemental type mana, and would be fun to combine. I want a fire lich!!! With the rank 2 fire/death promotions, plus the lich bonuses, you'd have a nice little unit there! ... Also have these bonuses transfer over to summons maybe?

Now my main idea... MANA TOWER! Something you can create to gain another mana node. To limit this, I think cost should be severe. It would be availible after sorcery...and would give you a mana node of your choice, but would give the town -90% production/gold/culture. Or possible set the requirements that that town has to have X amount of population, then when you build it, it DESTROYS the town and makes a mana node...then you have to come claim with a new town.

That would be a nice add on med-late game that need a new spell but all the current nodes are overly fortified.

scions are total powerhouse in orbis thanx to: haunted lands mechanic and opponents need lots of amount of food (3) for growing, it leaves less resources for military.

OK, mercurians have a chance to beat Scions ( because of their various "holy" bonuses) and golems are immune to haunted lands.

Scions shouldn't get various morale( from command post), holy bonuses( AoL, order religion), courage, hope and all that living related buff.

to reduce:hammers: and :commerce: bonuses from haunted lands by 1? compensates 3 food demand for other civs....

Ahwaric, what do u think about nerfing assasins ?
They are designed to take out the weak units, but instead they are better than their counter, the champions (they have 1 more attack strength with poisoned blade)
Additionally they are immune to defensive strikes, I wonder how Wauthans Crossbowmen could take them out

Additionally they are immune to defensive strikes, I wonder how Wauthans Crossbowmen could take them out

:blush:

Ahem... Right you are. Seems I forgot I wasn't running an unmodified version of Orbis. I've been trying out modding myself for a while now and that change slipped my mind for some reason. Sort of makes the assassins in regular Orbis even more powerful then I thought.

Good catch Hansebenger. Carry on. :D

On a side note I've tried out decreasing Assassin strength to 4. I guess I have to agree with Sputnik323. Nerfing the unit makes it pretty boring in the late game. Then again that actually gives you a reason to research Precision.

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to limit the number of Assassins you can build?

It's not like I would run out of assassins. I use a few insanely promoted ones rather than masses of wet-behind-the-ears's...

It would only nerf Calabim who excel at having many insanely promoted units and Svartalfar who should have a bunch of nicely promoted hunters to upgrade. Maybe Sidar, but they generally wane lots of units.

First, a follow up of previous thoughts. I agree mages are abit weak but I still find myself using them for a few nifty buffs. I would like to see a 'combat' buff go with every spell learned, I think this would help make mages more reliable. Example... Fire spells you get Blaze, Fireball, Summon Fire Elemental at ranks 1-3 respectively. Along with the spells how about we have progressive bonuses? 1 - 25% resist fire, 2 - +1 Fire Damage, 3 - 25% Defensive Strike (Fire Shield) ...I like this. I did this for one of the Shur promotions line and I think it's worth it. However, maybe we should limit how many different mana a single adept/mage can master. So that they would only be able to choose Fire, then Ice, then Shadow but after that, nothing but those three. That'd specialize them more and allow us to put even more power in the spells, as they would require much planning.

For the assassins: I'm going to add a Vigilant line to the Recon units of the Ngomele. This line will require KotE and gain good bonus towards other Recon units. Perhaps something like this could be added to any civ but instead of whole Recon bonus, an Assassin bonus?

I like that too, actually, but if you limit the spells I'd say limit OPPOSING spheres. As in, you can learn Fire OR Water, not both. Seems the best way to limit it in my mind, rather than an arbitrary number.

Yeah, you're right. But still, it may be too much to have the choice between 12 spheres... Not what I'd want to do. Maybe the exclusion of other mana should be deeper than just the main opposite one.

(Plus, your idea would be much more easy to do I think)

You could use the Mana Chart to assume what the "opposites" are and make it so that there is a "branching block" in place. Rank 1 blocks rank 1 of the exact opposite, rank 2 blocks rank 2 of the opposite rank and the 2 "nearest neighbors" so total of 3 rank 2 spells blocked. Rank 3 blocks rank 3 of the opposite and the 4 nearest neighbors (2 on each side).

Then of the 21 spells, you can only gain 5 Rank 3 spells, evenly spaced around the tree (though deciding precisely how to arrange the clumps of 5 may get a bit... odd). You can only learn 6 Rank 2 spells, and 11 rank 1 spells.



So, actually looking at the web now, that would mean:


Metamagic - Blocks nothing
Air - Blocks Earth I Blocks Body II
Body - Blocks Spirit I Blocks Air II
Chaos - Blocks Law I Blocks Force II Blocks Mind III
Creation - Blocks Entropy I Blocks Ice II Blocks Death III
Dimensional - Blocks Force I Blocks Mind II Blocks Law III
Death - Blocks Life I Blocks Creation II Blocks Nature III
Earth - Blocks Air I Blocks Spirit II
Enchantment - Blocks Mind I Blocks Law II Blocks Force III
Entropy - Blocks Creation I Blocks Nature II Blocks Life III
Fire - Blocks Water I Blocks Shadow II
Force - Blocks Dimensional I Blocks Enchantment II Blocks Chaos III
Ice - Blocks Nature I Blocks Life II Blocks Creation III
Law - Blocks Chaos I Blocks Dimensional II Blocks Enchantment III
Life - Blocks Death I Blocks Entropy II Blocks Ice III
Mind - Blocks Enchantment I Blocks Chaos II Blocks Dimensional III
Nature - Blocks Ice I Blocks Death II Blocks Entropy III
Shadow - Blocks Sun I Blocks Fire II
Spirit - Blocks Body I Blocks Earth II
Sun - Blocks Shadow I Blocks Water II
Water - Blocks Fire I Blocks Sun II



Abandoned the idea of going "off path" since the neighbor paths don't always lend themselves well to deciding which one of them to block first or at all, and didn't want to block the entire path of both neighbors (would have the elementals each blocking 7 other rank III spells)

Hmm... I like that. So basically, as you progress along one limb of the chart, you are progressively blocking your progress down another. Although your Chaos layout may be a bit off, unless the chart in your sig is old... Looks like it should be Law->Mind->Force, rather than Law->Force->Mind.

Might also want to allow another Archmage or two, if they wouldn't be allowed to learn all the spells.

I tried to have the progression always move toward the middle, wrapping back to the outside when it reached Metamagic. That way it was consistent. Though I don't know if I remembered to stick with that after thinking of it :)

Ah, makes sense.

Hrm, downside of that setup though is that Chaos II blocks Force II, but Force II blocks Chaos III. So if you get Force first, you can have both Force & Chaos rank 2. So it has to be set up so that Force II and Chaos II are opposed, same would need shuffled on all of the others so that they line up nicely (should only have to adjust one of the 3 on the branch in each case though if I am remembering group theory pieces properly, heading out the door so can't check to make sure it works out just now)

Real quick:

1 - 2 - 3 -- c - b - a

1
a
b
c

2
b
c
a

3
c
a
b

a
1
3
2

b
2
1
3

c
3
2
1


So yes, in the case I posted I had C organized improperly, it has to break the pattern on one side, but maintain it on the other.

The chart Kael posted is but one of the schemes he made. Metamagic, Force, and Dimensional (iirc) all took turns as the central, unopposed sphere. Personally, I think having Force (i.e., Balance) in the center makes the most sense.

One thing that Kael has made clear (after reading my explanation of why it should be that way) is that Ceridwen (Dimensional, Obsession, Relative Worth, Utility) and Nantosuelta (Enchantment, Faith, Intrinsic Worth, Virtue) are opposites.


I think the attached mana chart is a vast improvement. I still don't think all the similarities based on closeness are quite right, but I'm pretty sure I got all the opposites right. The only one where there is really any doubt is Mind-Metamagic, which I got by process of elimination, but I think it makes sense for them to be opposites (although I'd say the relationship seemed much more complementary than adversarial at first while most gods seem to to have had reasons to dislike their enemies from the start). Mind tend to deal with the future and Metamagc with the past. Mind wants to control where Metamagic only wants to understand. Mind deals with subjective desires and Metamagic with objective reality that planing them opposed to each other makes sense. Perhaps most convincingly, Mammon's forces invaded and wage war in Oghma's vault.


(These icons really don't fit the FfH meanings of the sphere. The Scales fit Force far better then Death. The Enchantment symbol seems much more dimensional-like, and is in fact the Obsidian Gate "airdrop" icon in FfH, which is clearly related to dimensional magic. The Owl is also a symbol of Sirona, and thus would better fit Spirit than Mind)

Hmm...

So, if one adept take Spirit I, he's blocked from Body I, right? And if he takes Spirit II, he's blocked from Earth I and Body II? And with Spirit III, from Earth II and Body III?

No, once you are blocked from a Promotion (ie - Body I), you aren't able to get ANY of the promotions above it either (Body II or III) as of that moment.

So Spirit I prevents Body I-III
Spirit II prevents Body I-III and Earth II&III
Spirit III prevents nothing further since it is an elemental path (short)

Ok, then. I like that :)

So, using Magister's Mana Map (MMM), that would mean:


Air

Exclude Earth I-III;
Exclude Body II-III;
No effect;

Body

Exclude Spirit I-III;
Exclude Air II-III;
No effect;

Chaos

Exclude Law I-III;
Exclude Metamagic II-III;
Exclude Enchantement III;

Creation

Exclude Entropy I-III;
Exclude Ice II-III;
Exclude Death III;

Death

Exclude Life I-III;
Exclude Nature II-III;
Exclude Creation III;

Dimensional

Exclude Enchantment I-III;
Exclude Law II-III;
Exclude Metamagic III;

Earth

Exclude Air I-III;
Exclude Spirit II-III;
No effect;

Enchantment

Exclude Dimensional I-III;
Exclude Mind II-III;
Exclude Chaos III;

Entropy

Exclude Creation I-III;
Exclude Life II-III;
Exclude Nature III;

Fire

Exclude Water I-III;
Exclude Shadow II-III;
No effect;

Force

No effect;
No effect;
No effect;

Ice

Exclude Nature I-III;
Exclude Creation II-III;
Exclude Life III;

Law

Exclude Chaos I-III;
Exclude Dimensional II-III;
Exclude Metamagic III;

Life

Exclude Death I-III;
Exclude Entropy II-III;
Exclude Ice III;

Metamagic

Exclude Mind I-III;
Exclude Chaos II-III;
Exclude Dimensional III;

Mind

Exclude Metamagic I-III;
Exclude Enchantment II-III;
Exclude Law III;

Nature

Exclude Ice I-III;
Exclude Death II-III;
Exclude Entropy III;

Shadow

Exclude Sun I-III;
Exclude Fire II-III;
No effect;

Spirit

Exclude Body I-III;
Exclude Earth II-III;
No effect

Sun

Exclude Shadow I-III;
Exclude Water II-III;
No effect;

Water

Exclude Fire I-III;
Exclude Sun II-III;
No effect;

I choose to make Entropy and Dimensional lines wrap their opposite away from Force and Creation and Enchantement lines wrap their opposite towards Force, representing the "good" mana working towards equilibrium and the "evil" ones against equilibrium. I don't know what Magister or others would think about that stance, though.

Of course, doing this would only be one part of the job. Ideas to deepen the job:

Give bonus with each mana promotion (so that Body raises :strength:, Air raises Evasion, etc.);
Strengthen the spells, since they would be harder to get;
Maybe raise the Archmage cap?
Give some special ability for mixing two end-branch sphere: two elements (Fire&Air, Earth&Water, for example) and/or two "extremes?" (Enchantment&Entropy, Dimensional&Creation, for example).

The first one being my main concern.

Okay, so, I thought of some promobonus already. I'm going to show you those before doing anything else, to see if I'm on the good tracks. Keep in mind that each level of promotion isn't added to the previous but is the sum of the effects.


Air

Movement +1
Withdrawal +20%
Movement +1
Withdrawal +50%
First Strike 0-1
Movement +2
Withdrawal +75%
First Strike 1
Lightning Damage 1

Body

Heal +10%
Strength +15%
Heal +25%
Strength +25%
Heal +50%
Strength +50%

Chaos

Betrayal +1%
First Strike 0-4
Immune to Capture
Betrayal +5%
First Strikes 2-6
Immune to Capture
Betrayal +10%
First Strikes 6
Immune to Capture


I think regular promotions should be removed (like Combat I-V) and replaced by Adept-only proms... Although there isn't that much of regular proms that they can choose anyway.

As I said, I'm only really confident about the exact opposites on that chart.


I don't think Law and Dimensional should block each other. They actually seem like rather similar spheres, as Law is obsessed with keeping the letter of the law and sometimes forgets the spirit of it. Law's desire for an ordered society means it loves rank, hierarchy, and positional worth more than any sphere but Dimensional. (On the other hand, the fallen Ceridwen does seek to subvert the laws of nature and to tear down he order she and Junil helped cement before her fall.)


I see more similarity than conflict between Metamagic and Dimensional too. Both Ceridwen and Oghma are known for keeping secrets and knowing lots of obscure lore that no one else does. Both are also closely associated with Magic.


I see Spirit as being quite close to Enchantment, and thus opposed to Dimensional. The Sheaim and Elohim do often seem paired against each other.

It has been long established that, despite both being Good, Junil and Sirona have never gotten along. Making Law and Spirit mutually exclusive would make much more sense. I'm unaware of any particular enmity between Spirit and Earth, not that they are particularly close either.



The aspiring acolyte was taken to the roof of the basilica or temple, alone with the ranking Confessor. It was a ritual, but one the acolyte had never before observed, and so also a test. Below them lies the city, with its teeming inhabitants. Merchants, soldiers, farmers, laborers, nobles, each on his own task.

"Look out, my son," commands the confessor, "and tell me what you see."

"Order," replies the young acolyte calmly.

The confessor smiles. "How do you see order here? Each man follows his own will."

"Order is brought by the law. As we follow the code of Junil, we are able to cooperate with one another, bringing about the ultimate expression of order, civilization. Each man's works contribute to the greater good without him knowing it, so long as those who harbor ill will are constrained by the law."

"What is the greatest temptation of the faithful of Junil?"

"Mercy."

"Why?

"The children of mercy are redemption and injustice. To show mercy to the murderer is to show contempt for the slain, and to grant mercy to the thief is to impoverish his victims. The redemption of a foe is the greatest achievement, but by forgiveness without contrition one is only allowing future suffering. The brother who grants mercy to all sees compassion as his strength; in truth pride is his weakness and the seeds of future misery are sown in the community. Thus mercy must remain the discretion of the gods."

"And so what is your greatest calling?"

"Obedience. Unquestioning Obedience." This exchange complete, the acolyte will be bathed and blessed, a full member of the Order.

From chapter 2 of Reflections on the State Cults, by Elder Methyl of the Luonnatar.

Sirona's selflessness would probably make Mind or Dimensional better choices to be blocked by spirit.


The sun sphere is very open, and unable to keep secrets like (Shadow), Metamagic, Mind, or Dimensional. Conflicting with those may make more sense than with water, although I can see where some disagreements with water would lie. (In addition to the obviously oppose effects of their level 1 spheres, Water is accepting of the faults of long time friends and unlikely to complain about anything, while Sun seeing being brutally honest to those you love in order to help them correct their faults as the right thing to do.)


It think it is pretty clear that the Kilmorphs consider Mammon the worst of the evil gods, or at least the most likely to corrupt her followers. Kilmorph sees wealth as a good thing as it encourages hard work for the betterment of society, but Mammon seeks wealth for its own sake at the expense of society. Mind schemes and plots to reap all the rewards from the labor of others, leaving those others poor and unmotivated to continue making an honest living. (Also, there seem to be close ties between the followers of Mammon and the followers of Tali, as seen by the greed of the Hippus and their selling dwarven slaves to the Balseraphs.) Making Earth and Mind exclusive may make sense.


I don't see that much of a conflict between fire and shadow, although Esus would prefer more subtle means than flame. I think it might be better for Shadow just to block Fire III. Earth and Shadow would seem to conflict more.


It seems odd that there is no conflict between Fire and Ice, seeing how their gods were such old enemies.




edit: the effects of those first level spell spheres seem like too much to me. I wouldn't mind the 3rd level ones being stronger, maybe even making Air III give flying?

Before answering, I have to say that all that I done above is the application of xienwolf's theoretical idea. Also, many things seemed a bit weird when I did it, aside from the mind-blowing gymnastic to find which mana opposes which other mana, like the possibility to have Ice and Fire at the same time. But enough, let's answer!

I don't think Law and Dimensional should block each other. They actually seem like rather similar spheres, as Law is obsessed with keeping the letter of the law and sometimes forgets the spirit of it. Law's desire for an ordered society means it loves rank, hierarchy, and positional worth more than any sphere but Dimensional. (On the other hand, the fallen Ceridwen does seek to subvert the laws of nature and to tear down he order she and Junil helped cement before her fall.)


I see more similarity than conflict between Metamagic and Dimensional too. Both Ceridwen and Oghma are known for keeping secrets and knowing lots of obscure lore that no one else does. Both are also closely associated with Magic.Yeah, I thought that too, that's eye I did it so Dimensional and Metamagic only block the III rank of each other.


I see Spirit as being quite close to Enchantment, and thus opposed to Dimensional. The Sheaim and Elohim do often seem paired against each other. You're quite right here...

It has been long established that, despite both being Good, Junil and Sirona have never gotten along. Making Law and Spirit mutually exclusive would make much more sense. I'm unaware of any particular enmity between Spirit and Earth, not that they are particularly close either.The apparent enmity between them is just due to the chart placing them in an opposing branch.

Sirona's selflessness would probably make Mind or Dimensional better choices to be blocked by spirit. Yeah, because Dimensional is somewhat egoistic, isn't it? And Mind too. Hmm...


The sun sphere is very open, and unable to keep secrets like (Shadow), Metamagic, Mind, or Dimensional. Conflicting with those may make more sense than with water, although I can see where some disagreements with water would lie. (In addition to the obviously oppose effects of their level 1 spheres, Water is accepting of the faults of long time friends and unlikely to complain about anything, while Sun seeing being brutally honest to those you love in order to help them correct their faults as the right thing to do.)Okay. Water and Sun are opposed in the map, like Spirit and Earth. Well, for what it's worth, at least.


It think it is pretty clear that the Kilmorphs consider Mammon the worst of the evil gods, or at least the most likely to corrupt her followers. Kilmorph sees wealth as a good thing as it encourages hard work for the betterment of society, but Mammon seeks wealth for its own sake at the expense of society. Mind schemes and plots to reap all the rewards from the labor of others, leaving those others poor and unmotivated to continue making an honest living. (Also, there seem to be close ties between the followers of Mammon and the followers of Tali, as seen by the greed of the Hippus and their selling dwarven slaves to the Balseraphs.) Making Earth and Mind exclusive may make sense. Noted that too.


I don't see that much of a conflict between fire and shadow, although Esus would prefer more subtle means than flame. I think it might be better for Shadow just to block Fire III. Earth and Shadow would seem to conflict more.


It seems odd that there is no conflict between Fire and Ice, seeing how their gods were such old enemies.Nothing to answer on those... But I'm hesitating now. Either I keep the highly regular system xienwolf came up with, either I let flavour inside the exclusion system. The former would be more appreciable but, in fact, it's a bit a pain in the ass to understand exactly how the system is logical and to apply it to the mana map (no offense, xienwolf :p). So I guess that a more intuitive approach is needed. Maybe not replacing one with the other but mixing them. I'll come up with some chart later.




edit: the effects of those first level spell spheres seem like too much to me. I wouldn't mind the 3rd level ones being stronger, maybe even making Air III give flying?I thought that too but considered that it may be too powerful. But I will give it a try, like WaterWalking for Water III.

So, you think level I should be weaker and level III stronger? A more exponential increase in power, somehow.

I would say that the best approach would be to take all of the Lore you can find and justifications for how spheres should ally/oppose one another, and THEN build a mana map, which may not have the same overall design as the original (ie - 4 branches of 2 and 4 of 3). The important thing is that having a map of some kind which shows the opposition will make it clear to players at a quick glance what will block (or potentially block) what.


Some spheres make it very justified to block a LOT of other spheres. Let them. The balance would be strong spells or nice promotion bonuses. Other spheres may not have any enmity, so they would have little to no promotion bonus and/or weak spells, but maybe offer some cross-sphere spells as well.



It is a complicated thing to approach, so unfortunately there isn't really a "best path" to it. You can start with the Lore, with a Diagram/chart, with a few "cool spell" ideas, with some "nifty promotion" ideas, or any number of other things, but in the end you have to try and rationalize all of them into the system at the same time.

So basically, it's a Tetris Cube. (http://www.scottkurowski.com/tetriscube/)

Yeah, I see.

Here's what I have as a semi-chart for now, with red ties being radical opposites, green ties being Magister/Lore opposites and blue ties being my opposites:http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww28/Dhivuri/semimanachart.pngI think Air should oppose Law as Air is basically freedom, iirc.



However, I'm not sure why Earth and Shadow should oppose each other?



I left out 9 mana: Force, Chaos, Fire, Ice, Nature, Entropy, Creation, Death and Life. Interestingly enough, if we look at the mana chart posted above, we can see that six of those missings are on the same branch (the vertical one).

As I have them now, they only have a radical opposite:
Life <-> Death
Nature <-> Ice
Creation <-> Entropy

I'm wondering if Creation shouldn't also oppose Ice and if Life shouldn't oppose Entropy. We could have a nice chain: Nature <-> Ice <-> Creation <-> Entropy <-> Life <-> Death. Death and Nature don't seem opposites though.



Maybe Death and Spirit should oppose each other? I don't remember why, but I think it makes sense somehow (Sidar, Arawn...).




This is really a tough issue to resolve. One sure thing would be the radical opposites. In fact, the tough thing would be to come up with a neat chart.

Yeah, Air is about irresponsibility and fun, so it is nearly as opposed to Law as it is to Earth.


Earth cares about honesty nearly as much as Sun (but more in the sense of honest hard work than honest statements) and Shadow seems allied with Mind and Air. Mind, Air, and Shadow all like stealing rather than earning their way though life.


Death and Nature aren't opposites. The nature sphere tends to value life and death equally. Nature is about gradual change/maturation. Death is about resignation, and life about perseverance, renewal, and rebirth. Creation is about entirely new birth, not the continuation or restoration of old life. Ice is about opposing change and longing to return to an idealized version of the past.


Given that Sucellus was able to convince Arawn to give him the Life sphere so as to help the world recover from the Ice, I guess those could be opposites. Having New Birth oppose stagnation makes sense too. Life could oppose entropy, as healing is the opposite of decay, the sanctify spell removes the damage caused by Agares' religion, and the Gods of Life have shown quite willing to give up their sphere power to others while Agares rebellion started with him being unwilling to give up his. Agares and Sucellus aren't exactly enemies though, as Agares has great respect for Nemed's sacrifice and identifies the god who now holds the sphere with Nemed more than the man who used to be the god.


I see no reason for Death and Spirit to be opposed. They are actually rather close (although I'd consider Water closer to either than they are to each other). Laroth is using Spirit magic to dominate a large part of the land of the Dead, and may even ascend to become the new god of death. Spirit is used as a substitute for death mana from the palace of the death themes civ.



In some ways, Force is really the opposite of everything. Specializing in any other sphere enough to completely master it would pretty much require going of the deep and becoming quite emotionally imbalanced. I'm thinking it could be interesting if Force III blocked access to (at least the 3rd level of) all the spell spheres. Of course, with spells like Peace, Wall of Geiss (basically Sanctuary), and Summon Runewyn (which I just added, based on the Bestiary, which summons a magic immune flying angel that has a huge bonus vs arcane units, can target them in stacks of stronger units, and can remove magic promotions from units it attacks even if it looses) I'm not sure there would be much need for other spheres. The Bestiary does state that Dagda's angels frequently clash with the angels of Ceridwen, if you want to take a less extreme approach and focus Force against Dimesnional.

Interesting ideas about specializing mages. I agree, magic has become much too generic in FfH and its mods. A couple of thoughts from the peanut gallery:

1) When you speak of certain Tier I magic promotions blocking access to others, have you considered the Amurites and Govannon's Teach Spellcasting ability? You'd probably crash the game if various adepts, wizards, siege mages and archmages (not to mention swordsmen, hunters, workers and the like) suddenly gained mutually exclusive spell promos. :eek: At the very least it would probably cause issues when levelling.

One way to circumvent the issue would be to give the Amurites a civ trait or racial promotion: Blood of Kylorin. This would allow Amurite mages to pursue any combination of magic types and would further distinguish them as the ultimate magic users of Erebus. :D

Another way would be simply to allow all tier I spells to be known by any spellcasting unit without limitation, and not to start spell promos from blocking one another until tier II. ;) Or combine both methods.

2) As to opposing spheres, I am not a FfH lore maven so I'm just going on what makes sense to me as far as magic use goes. However, basing opposition based on which gods control which spheres and how they get along seems to me more suited to divine spell casters than to mages.

a) Death and Nature could be considered opposites. Why? The Death sphere is more about undeath, and unnatural death, than the natural death which could be considered an aspect of nature. Since the Death sphere opposes natural death, raising undead creatures and even allowing the caster to cheat nature by becoming a lich, it exists in explicit opposition to Nature.

b) Entropy, as the force of ultimate decay and destruction, exists in explicit contradiction to both Life and Creation. However as it now exists there is no Creation sphere in Orbis, nor Force which was also mentioned. Are there plans to bring them over from FF at a future date?

c) Law and Chaos exist in direct contradiction, and are explicitly used so in the D&D system which FfH has some of its roots in.

3) A completely different approach to diversifying mages: bring back summoners! I liked how when upgrading adepts in earlier versions of FfH you could choose to follow either the path of the mage or that of the summoner, with different spell lists for each path. I was rather annoyed when Kael decided to combine the two into one generic unit and dump several spells, though I understand his reasoning to keep the main mod lean and mean. But that's what modmods are for, after all! :cool:

4) Another way to diversify mages: By the technology required to build the appropriate mana nodes. So you would basically have Alterers, Diviners, Elementalists and Necromancers (Metamagic would be available to all and Ice would be available to all Illian casters only). You could either a) create four types of adepts; b) give them an appropriate promo when they learn their first spell (blocking off access to spheres from other techs and making certain other promos available) or c) just make them choose their path when upgrading to tier II units (either letting them take tier I in all spheres or somehow returning their picks to them to be rechosen). :D

Enough from me for now. Carry on, modders! :bowdown:

Actually with promotions how I have written them it is possible to make it IMPOSSIBLE to have 2 promotions at the same time which you decide will be mutually exclusive. So if one REALLY wanted to they could ensure that you never have Strong + Weak or Light + Heavy. So that part at least isn't a concern.

But Amurite being naturally immune to the cross-sphere limitations could be an interesting approach to making them seem the true masters of the arcane.

@Cylnar: See, I didn't know this about Summoners. Never saw them. I guess I came to FFH too late! How were they handled? Were they an alternative to Mage upgrade from Adepts? So they did have the same rank I spells but different rank II-III?

Also, it may be a good idea to divide the spells by school, Alteration, Divination, etc. Some restrictions still should apply though, like Sun and Shadow being mutually exclusive.

I like the Amurites idea too. Long time since I wanted to give them a powerful trait. I don't know how I will make it work, though.

As for Force and Creation, yes, I plan to add them in.

Thanks for the great input, Cylnar :goodjob:

@Magister: Thanks for the input, as usual. What do you think about what Cylnar said on Death and Nature?

Also, would you mind sharing your Creation spells? I like the Force ones you mention too. I'm not sure yet but would you mind if I used them?

I think a way to give arcane units ranged attack would be neat. Maybe with Force II (which would still give a spell) or with another mana...

I forgot, here's how I would classify the mana spheres into the schools:


Alteration

Body
Creation
Enchantment
Life
Nature

Divination

Law
Metamagic
Mind
Spirit
Sun

Necromancy

Chaos
Death
Dimensional
Entropy
Shadow

Elementalism

Air
Earth
Fire
Ice
Water

Force

I put Metamagic in Divination as its place as the "center" is now taken by Force. However, maybe it should be renamed. Metamagic implies that it is beyond magic, which it isn't really anymore. Force should get the Dispel ability, too.

Okay, so, I thought about something, but it may be a bit complicated.




An Adept has the possibility to learn any rank I spell, as long as he hasn't already learned a spell from a mana opposing the one he wants. So, if you learn Water I, you won't be able to learn Fire I in any way.
A Mage needs to do a choice when first upgraded. It would be required to choose one school: either Alteration, Necromancy, Divination or Elementalism. He would be able to reach rank III spells only in the spheres pertaining to the school he chooses.
So an Archmage would only be able to learn 5 rank III spells at max. But only 3 max in Elementalism and Divination due to internal complications.

Maybe that Alteration and Necromancy should exclude rank II spells of each other mana spheres, as they seem to be extremely opposed.

Edit: Nevermind, this won't work. Or not well. The Divination school basically allow only one sphere because each one excludes 2+ other spheres in the same school...

Fourpost!

Here's an updated chart:http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww28/Dhivuri/manachart.pngYou can clearly see the internal issues of the Divination school. Apart from this one, only Elementalism as such conflicts. Alteration and Necromancy seems pretty unified and to oppose each other quite well.

Hmm. I really don't like this idea. It adds a lot of confusion to the magic system, for only questionable benefits.

For instance, I want to build a mage whose sole job is terraforming. That's normally Water 1 (for Deserts), Sun 1 (for Ice), Life 1 (for Haunted Lands), plus potentially Mobility and Water 2 (for Water Walking to any nearby island chains I own) Yes, Nature 3 is nice, but it's a heck of a way off and I can do a lot of good with just the previous spells til I get to that level. If Water and Sun start to compete, I'll need more magic users and more micromanagement and that's a bad thing from a gameplay perspective.

Secondly, you can snooker yourself with free promotions. If I have 3 Fire nodes - all my mages get fireball, but now they'll never be able to get Spring to put out the flames in my forests. This latter problem can be solved by giving Mage Guilds the Train Spell ability, so that you don't *have* to learn fireball if you wish to learn Spring. This also allows you Archmages to learn new spells as you acquire new sorts of mana.

Hmm. I really don't like this idea. It adds a lot of confusion to the magic system, for only questionable benefits.The benefits aren't questionable. As benefits, you'll get: boosts to your adept/mage/archmage with the spells promotions (Air I, Earth III, etc.) and more powerful spells because harder to get.

For instance, I want to build a mage whose sole job is terraforming. That's normally Water 1 (for Deserts), Sun 1 (for Ice), Life 1 (for Haunted Lands), plus potentially Mobility and Water 2 (for Water Walking to any nearby island chains I own) Yes, Nature 3 is nice, but it's a heck of a way off and I can do a lot of good with just the previous spells til I get to that level. If Water and Sun start to compete, I'll need more magic users and more micromanagement and that's a bad thing from a gameplay perspective.Well, Water <-> Sun may not be a good idea, then. Nothing is set to stone yet. Gameplay will play a huge part in that, not only flavour. I didn't think about those two terraforming spells. However, if you pick Death I, you won't have access to Life I with that same adept, so he couldn't remove haunted lands. But you can either create another adept with Life I or take Fire I. IIRC, you can remove haunted lands with Blaze.

Secondly, you can snooker yourself with free promotions. If I have 3 Fire nodes - all my mages get fireball, but now they'll never be able to get Spring to put out the flames in my forests. This latter problem can be solved by giving Mage Guilds the Train Spell ability, so that you don't *have* to learn fireball if you wish to learn Spring. This also allows you Archmages to learn new spells as you acquire new sorts of mana.Yeah, that something I'd like to work on too.

Maybe you could ditch the current 4 groups of spells and come up with a set of similar divisions (not necessarily 4, maybe 3 or 7) which work better for the schools as you set them up. Avoid internal conflicts and make it so that rank 1 spells block only their opposing sphere, rank 2 spells block an opposing school, and rank 3 spells block everything outside of your school. So with a 7 school split (you'd make each tech cheaper, and each tower as well) you would have 1 school which is fairly weak but doesn't oppose any other schools past level 1 (Force/Body/Nature?), and the other 6 schools would have 1 strictly opposing set each.

Splitting by techs can make it pretty clear for players what they will lose at rank 2 (the other tech worth of things) and what they lose at rank 3 (everything but this tech). The need to rename the towers and create 2 more could be an issue, so instead you could make it so you only need 1 of each opposing pair to generate a tower, plus the 4th unopposed tower from the 7th tech.


For the sake of the Tech Tree, you could make it so that the 7th tech (unopposed) is the prereq for all of the other 6 spheres, and is the ONLY prereq for Sorcery (So it goes KotE --> 7th --> Sorcery, and all the other 6 are dead-end paths from 7th)

If possible, it would be neat if the 3 pairs of techs matched the 3 spheres within the 7th Tech somehow (ie - two which oppose each other in some manner which relates to Body, 2 which oppose each other in some manner related to Force...) then you could make the 7th sphere offer enhancements to each of the two "sub-schools" and maybe even only allow players to choose 1 of the 3 items in school 7 per unit (so then as a Mage if you took a 7th school promotion you are able to promote in 3 separate schools, but one of them is stronger due to being enhanced by your 7th school promotion)


And yes, the idea of moving from auto-applied free promotions for multiple mana to elective application will be quite needed.

@Cylnar: See, I didn't know this about Summoners. Never saw them. I guess I came to FFH too late! How were they handled? Were they an alternative to Mage upgrade from Adepts? So they did have the same rank I spells but different rank II-III?


Yes. There was only one tier I spell list; when your unit reached level 4, you had two upgrade buttons. One would upgrade the unit to a mage, the other to a summoner; each had different spell lists. The mage mostly had buffs, debuffs and direct damage types and the summoner relied on summoned creatures.

For example (and my memory may be faulty) the Fire sphere had Blaze as tier I, then Fireball for mage tier II (the only "unit" that a mage could "summon") or Summon Azer for summoner tier II, and for tier III, Pillar of Fire for mages or Summon Fire Elemental for summoners. The relative strengths of the surviving summons were adjusted when Kael blended the two; Azer may have been the tier III summon though it is now a demonic/barbarian unit with a weaker base strength than a fire elemental.


I think a way to give arcane units ranged attack would be neat. Maybe with Force II (which would still give a spell) or with another mana...


If a mage can cast a damage spell, they should be able to have a ranged attack (it doesn't have to be powerful, necessarily). For example, a mage learns Fireball. This also gives it access to a strength 1 fire-based ranged attack with no collateral damage (hits a random unit in the stack or the primary stack defender). Perhaps learning the tier III fire spell could add +1 fire damage to that attack, or if the mage learns another damage spell (maelstrom, for instance) a +1 of that damage type could be added.

Hmm. I really don't like this idea. It adds a lot of confusion to the magic system, for only questionable benefits.

For instance, I want to build a mage whose sole job is terraforming. That's normally Water 1 (for Deserts), Sun 1 (for Ice), Life 1 (for Haunted Lands), plus potentially Mobility and Water 2 (for Water Walking to any nearby island chains I own) Yes, Nature 3 is nice, but it's a heck of a way off and I can do a lot of good with just the previous spells til I get to that level. If Water and Sun start to compete, I'll need more magic users and more micromanagement and that's a bad thing from a gameplay perspective.


This could be solved by simply allowing all Adepts to take any tier I spells without limitation. Let them learn the basics of several schools before they have to make a decision as to what school they will specialize in as they advance (tier II spells would begin to block access to spells from opposing schools). This also allows letting Khazad adepts/players bypass the whole specialization thing entirely - they're already weak enough (since they can't upgrade) without further limiting their spell selection.


Secondly, you can snooker yourself with free promotions. If I have 3 Fire nodes - all my mages get fireball, but now they'll never be able to get Spring to put out the flames in my forests. This latter problem can be solved by giving Mage Guilds the Train Spell ability, so that you don't *have* to learn fireball if you wish to learn Spring. This also allows you Archmages to learn new spells as you acquire new sorts of mana.

I like this idea. The second mana would give the tier I spell (if tier I didn't block other tiers) while further mana of that type would give a choice of free (or low-cost) promotion: either further spells in that mana type or a non-spell promo normally available to mages (either one of the existing ones or new ones implemented when the specialization system goes into effect).

So in Jabie's example, a new adept would start with Blaze; when upgrading it would be able to take Fireball, or perhaps Combat I (or maybe Magic Resistance or Resist Fire would be more thematic) thus allowing it to spend its normal free upgrade-to-mage promo to acquire Spring. If you go ahead with tier I spells blocking other tier I spells, this system would simply start at the adept level: the adept would either choose to learn Blaze or get another promo instead.

Yeah, since death magic in Erebus is actually unnatural undeath magic, death and nature can oppose each other.



I don't really have Creation up and running in my current version. In my previous version:
Creation I: Fertility: Creates a requires caster building called Fertility that provides and stores food.
Creation II: Inspiration: Creates a requires caster building called Inspiration that provides free slots for all kinds of specialists, plus aGP and research bonus.
Creation III: Prodigious Birth: Causes a random great person to be born in a random civ's random city.

I had Prodigious Birth working fine before, but broke it somehow. Inspiration seems more appropriate for the Creation sphere than for Mind, but I didn't really like the Mind I spell I added in my previous version and haven't come up with a better one so I've left that sphere alone for now and haven't changed the effects of the Inspiration building yet. Right now I have Mind I and Creation I being identical, and a Creation 2 spell called fertility that just increases the city population by 1. This is only temporary though.



Force 1: Temperance: Gives the temperance promotion, which grants 30% resistance to both holy and unholy damage.
Force 2: Repel Divine: pushes angels, demons, and priests back a tile, and deals a small amount of damage to them. Can be resisted
Force 3: Wall of Geiss - basically a copy of Sanctuary that doesn't usually last so long (length depends on the caster level), costs the caster all his force promotions.
Force 3/Spirit 3: Peace, taken from Corindale. Actually, I don't think I've added this in my current version.

Force 3: Summon Runewyn: as the name implies, it summons a Runewyn. I just added this last night, based on an entry in the Bestiary (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8297873&postcount=1). Runewyns start with Angel, Flying, Magic Immune, Angel Slaying, and Demon Slaying, but more importantly they can target arcane units (and archmages in particular. I currently have it targeting high priests too, but I may drop that.) in stacks of better defenders, they defend against arcane units first, they have a 100% bonus vs arcane units, and they can cause their victims to loose random spell spheres and channeling promotions.


While allowing ranged attacks by promotions is not hard in FF based mods, I don't really think it is appropriate for the force sphere. Force is about balance, not physical pushes and pulls. It is also about reaching and enforcing consensuses, and since the natural laws of Erebus were set by consensus it entails preventing them from being broken or bent by supernatural means. Force magic is kind of a paradox, as the sphere prefers the mundane and delving too deep into studies of how to use it is against its nature. Reality itself could be considered one enormous force spell that all the souls of gods and men cast together without realizing it. I can't really imagine the ability to channeling and concentrate the essence of balance in order cast a spell with it, as balance seems by definition to be the state in which all the elements are least concentrated. Force seems like it is more anti-magic than magic. I suspect that one could at least theoretically however combine Force magic with powerful Mind, Shadow, or Spirit magic to manipulate the collective subconscious into reaching a consensus strong enough to change the laws of nature.

Yeah, [Automatic Spell Upgrades] something I'd like to work on too.

Um... I know I've seen this in FF.. promotions I had for free, and paid ABSOLUTELY nothing for, but had to click on to get.. Could you run the automatic spell upgrades like that? That way there's a check you have to do (In case you want to forego auto-fire for some water...

But I may be misremembering, since it's been a couple months.

Force 3: Wall of Geiss - basically a copy of Sanctuary that doesn't usually last so long (length depends on the caster level), costs the caster all his force promotions.


Doesn't that weaken the Elohim by allowing other nations to replicate their World Spell albeit in a shorter version? Perhaps you should limit it to the fat cross of one city and/or only make it block creatures 75% of the time - that'll slow down a SoD without completely stopping it.

Well, that would require me to do a lot of SDK work instead of just using a preexistent python function.


I'm not a fan of most of the world spells, so I always turn them off. The similarity to the world spell doesn't weaken them if no one can use world spells.

I think maybe the tensions among the schools could be resolved by moving some of the spheres. Ones that seem out of place to me are Metamagic under Divination, Dimensional under Necromancy, and Ice under Elemental.

I think maybe the tensions among the schools could be resolved by moving some of the spheres. Ones that seem out of place to me are Metamagic under Divination, Dimensional under Necromancy, and Ice under Elemental.

where would you put them (BTW dimensional is an evil sphere)

in honesty i think fishing should give rivers extra+1 food because you fish from the river i like the ideas about specific mages make kinda a ring of affinity's that give for ex. ice and and water are similair so it would be hard to take out a water elemental with an ice elemental but pretty easy with a fireball earth strong against lightning water takes out fire ice takes out earth and lightning takes out water
does that make any sense?

does that make any sense?

Nope. And I mean that quite literally. That sentence was literally incomprehensible to me. :)

where would you put them (BTW dimensional is an evil sphere)

Ice is an evil sphere too, but you don't see people trying to pigeonhole that into the "evil" school. I think the reason it feels like dimensional doesn't fit is because the whole school itself seems misnamed. If you think about it, necromancy is basically just a word for death magic. It's a single sphere masquerading as a whole school. But dimensional has nothing to do with that, and the other spheres are only peripherally related at best. I think it might make sense if the school were renamed to something else, like maybe abjuration? I dunno, that's not a very name, but I can't think of a better one.

I didn't put more thought in that since the last time I posted. It's indeed very hard to think of a way to revamp the current magic system. I guess it would be better to start from scratch, with only the manas as a base. Thus forgetting the current techs ("schools"), spells, and all.

I guess it would be better to start from scratch, with only the manas as a base. Thus forgetting the current techs ("schools"), spells, and all.

That might be too much of a deviation from base FfH - you'd be radically altering gameplay rather than just adding refinements. You'd also be going against all lore already written. The manas and spells unlocked by the tech "necromancy" are the only ones the game currently treats as evil (thus the diplo penalty associated with their use). You're better off just leaving it that way. :D

As stated above, I'd like to see a return to separate "mage" and "summoner" lines for arcane units with different spells for each. Another alternative would be to have more than one spell associated with each tier of spell ability. For example: in addition to Blaze at the first tier of fire ability, you could have "Agannazar's Scorcher" which would be used to attack a unit in an adjacent tile, or simply added +1 fire combat to the caster.

Another example: At the third tier of Enchantment an archmage would have access to "Tenser's Transformation" which would, for a single turn, make the caster the equivalent of a Champion/Heavy Infantry (or appropriate UU) as far as base strength goes, with mithril weapons; the caster could then attack or defend appropriately. Great to stymie assassins! :cool:

With additional spells at their disposal, players could customize their mages however they liked! Build a unit into a Pyromancer, master of fire, able to burn enemies' lands and units equally, and summon azers and fire elementals to help! Or an Enchanter, able to buff allies and debuff enemies - and eventually perhaps to enter the fray as an enchanted warrior! :eek:

That might be too much of a deviation from base FfH - you'd be radically altering gameplay rather than just adding refinements. You'd also be going against all lore already written. The manas and spells unlocked by the tech "necromancy" are the only ones the game currently treats as evil (thus the diplo penalty associated with their use). You're better off just leaving it that way. :DWell, you're half-wrong there. Among the Necromancy manas, only two are treated as "evil" in diplomacy: Death and Entropy. Chaos, Dimensional and Shadow aren't treated like this.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that you aren't bound to those four techs/"schools" and that we always can move spells around. I'm not saying to entirely re-think the system and the spells, I'm just saying that we aren't bound to them absolutely.

As stated above, I'd like to see a return to separate "mage" and "summoner" lines for arcane units with different spells for each. Another alternative would be to have more than one spell associated with each tier of spell ability. For example: in addition to Blaze at the first tier of fire ability, you could have "Agannazar's Scorcher" which would be used to attack a unit in an adjacent tile, or simply added +1 fire combat to the caster.

Another example: At the third tier of Enchantment an archmage would have access to "Tenser's Transformation" which would, for a single turn, make the caster the equivalent of a Champion/Heavy Infantry (or appropriate UU) as far as base strength goes, with mithril weapons; the caster could then attack or defend appropriately. Great to stymie assassins! :cool:

With additional spells at their disposal, players could customize their mages however they liked! Build a unit into a Pyromancer, master of fire, able to burn enemies' lands and units equally, and summon azers and fire elementals to help! Or an Enchanter, able to buff allies and debuff enemies - and eventually perhaps to enter the fray as an enchanted warrior! :eek:Yes, that could be great. A lot of work, though. And for the Summoners, idea that I like, you would need to find spells to replace the current summons of the Adepts and find new summon spells. If you do/help with that, adding Summoners will be easy :P

Well, you're half-wrong there. Among the Necromancy manas, only two are treated as "evil" in diplomacy: Death and Entropy. Chaos, Dimensional and Shadow aren't treated like this.


I thought chaos was too. Oh well. My point was only "necromancy" related schools get any negative reaction.


Yes, that could be great. A lot of work, though. And for the Summoners, idea that I like, you would need to find spells to replace the current summons of the Adepts and find new summon spells. If you do/help with that, adding Summoners will be easy :P


The code should still exist for all the spells (not to mention the code differentiating mage from summoner units) that were eliminated when Kael merged the two lines. If Kael deleted it, maybe Vehem still has it, or xienwolf, or MagisterCultuum. Ahwaric may even have it, if he was iterating Orbis at the time. If I still had that iteration of FfH2 laying around I would attach it but I don't. :sad:

I'm sure you could get it from the vanilla Civ version, which should still exist in the download page.

I'd like to suggest that other civilizations that temporarily acquire Alcinus when he's being crazy, shouldn't be able to cast Create Thaumaturges Keep. It gives them access to up to 2 free mana nodes, plus some really impressive bonuses to Adept xp. Since there isn't really any way of making sure that Alcinus doesn't go to other civilizations, you can't stop it from happening.

Should be pretty easy to make Thaumaturge's Keep require Scions civ to build (or "The Gift" tech). I've built the TK in two games (as the Amurites and Balseraphs) and while it's a cool feature to just get a free building that provides mana and stuff (even with the health and happiness hits) I suppose it could be considered OP. :mischief:

Okay, so, the Thaumaturge's Keep issue has been fixed in the latest patch(es). Onward to a new subject and I'd need huge feedback here, people! Civics balance!

What are you thoughts on civics balance?

My own opinion is that the combo Aristocracy+Caste System is too powerful right now, giving +2 free specialists, especially since, iirc, Caste System provides unlimited specialists of some kind.

Also, if you feel any civic name is wrong or a new one should be added, or tech prereq changed, or anything, please tell. Your feedback is always good to hear! (or nearly ;))

Aristocracy + caste system would be fine - if the cottage economy was buffed. As it is right now, it is better to spam farms and use specialists than it is to spam cottages, no matter what tiles your city is on. The big problem here is that farms were buffed to assist with the whole 3 food thing, as were plantations (slightly), but cottages, etc weren't.

Changes I would make. Yggdrasil provides more food (say 6 food base, +3 with FoL, +3 with Commune with nature). Cottages changed to provide +1 food at all levels, increase commerce by 1-2 for villages and towns (best would be increase by 1, and have taxation increase by 2 instead of 1), enclaves provide 3 food and 1 hammer instead of increased commerce. Auls increase either food, hammers, or commerce to remain competative. Plantations provide +2 food instead of +1 (and bananas provide more food than currently), as well as increasing commerce by 1-2.

Alternatively, you can look at it as the cottage economy is fine, and specialist economy is too powerful. I would disagree with you, but if you want to nerf the specialist economy, the best way to do that is to move aristocracy to code of laws (instead of writing, where it is now), and move caste system to a later tech down the line, with emphasis on putting at least 1 tech between it and aristocracy, instead of having writing unlock code of laws. As it is, writing unlocks code of laws, meaning that you get aristocracy and caste system together in short order. I you were to keep aristocracy where it is, or move it to code of laws, and then move caste system to, say, taxation or something, or maybe currency (can't have a caste system without money really), it would significantly reduce the power of that combination.

-Colin

Hmm, just realized something. Why does stirrups require archery? It doesn't make any real sense to me, as stirrup aren't exclusively reserved to mounted archery. Furthermore, some units enabled by the tech have nothing to do with mounted archery... like Ogres... Might be better to put the Archery requirement on the units rather than on the tech itself.

Two Balance Issues:

Affinity+Map Size/#of Players

Affinity should scale with map size and # of players. That is.. on a small map, one player might be lucky to get 2 extra mana nodes to strengthen their summons. On a huge map, that same player might be likely to have 5. By the same token, having 20 players instead of 5 means there are that many more potential vassals to horde mana resources from.

Trade Value of Mana Resources

Also.. on that note, mana needs it's value seriously decreased in the eyes of the computer. Any time I ask for a mana resources, they drop my whole table of resources down as the trade (including any extra mana I might have). Seriously, this is silly for the reason that I would certainly give up a mana node for mithril (and the computer should too), and that it can be abused by trading away your excess mana to the computer for everything that they have (see the Aggressive Trading article).


My other ramblings:

Further to the whole mage thing though (which might require it's own thread). I think part of the reason mages aren't used is that their ability to soften defenders has been duplicated in potentially more effective units, such as catapults and archers. On top of this, their summons are highly dependant upon factors having nothing to do with leveling the unit, and if they happen to spend another 3 points into a tree with summons they don't gain any benefit from it (there aren't really enough weaknesses/strengths vs particular elements to justify summoning something different). Balancing this by making the mage gain extra combat prowess just makes them into another direct attack unit that I would argue removes their unique role. What I would suggest doing though, is making summons permanent, and adjusting the mage units to function like commanders (each 3 ranks in a spell tree can let them maintain one more unit), that have their own set of promotions to assist these summons. In the alternative of focusing on summons, mages should be able to select promotions that increase maximum damage of spells, range of spells, and even targeting functions for them (casting lighting on a tile 3 squares away for example). Also.. lower rank spells should scale with higher Ranked casters. So a skeleton cast by a lich might have 10 Str and guardsman instead of 3 Str when cast by an adept. Further.. and one of the biggest concerns.. is that mages should acquire xp from damaging or killing opponents with either thier summons or their spells, so they don't fall behind their 200 xp Mithril Phalanx counterparts. Oh.. and tier 3 creation spell.. clone anyone? ^^;

My other ramblings:

Further to the whole mage thing though (which might require it's own thread). I think part of the reason mages aren't used is that their ability to soften defenders has been duplicated in potentially more effective units, such as catapults and archers. On top of this, their summons are highly dependant upon factors having nothing to do with leveling the unit, and if they happen to spend another 3 points into a tree with summons they don't gain any benefit from it (there aren't really enough weaknesses/strengths vs particular elements to justify summoning something different). Balancing this by making the mage gain extra combat prowess just makes them into another direct attack unit that I would argue removes their unique role. What I would suggest doing though, is making summons permanent, and adjusting the mage units to function like commanders (each 3 ranks in a spell tree can let them maintain one more unit), that have their own set of promotions to assist these summons. In the alternative of focusing on summons, mages should be able to select promotions that increase maximum damage of spells, range of spells, and even targeting functions for them (casting lighting on a tile 3 squares away for example). Also.. lower rank spells should scale with higher Ranked casters. So a skeleton cast by a lich might have 10 Str and guardsman instead of 3 Str when cast by an adept. Further.. and one of the biggest concerns.. is that mages should acquire xp from damaging or killing opponents with either thier summons or their spells, so they don't fall behind their 200 xp Mithril Phalanx counterparts. Oh.. and tier 3 creation spell.. clone anyone? ^^;

I like this idea for making summons permanent, that way when a summon gets experence it doesn't feel like a waste of time selecting the promotions. The summoning trait could also add 1 to the amount of summons a mage can hold.

Other thoughs
Summoning Spells could now take longer to cast (2 or 3 turns) rather than a *poof*, oh look, a balor

To make summons slightly more unique, you could allow the location of the casting to affect the summon.

Examples
Balor: may sacrifice 1 population in a city with a sacrificial alter to give it Burning Blood
(Killing an enemy prevents it from turning barbarian for 5 turns, as does sacrificing a unit, it starts 'sated')

Fire Elemental: When summoned in the Pyre of the Seraphic. they do two extra fire damage. (Or increase collateral damage)

Earth Elemental: When summoned in the Standing Stones they gain the teleportation ability. (Tunneling through the ground)

Spectres/Wraith: When summoned in the Broken Sepulcher the unit starts with cannabalize (Or a new promotions called Terror, has a chance to bypass courage)

Air Elemental: When summoned in the Maelstrom the unit starts with Air II (Thus able to cast the spell Maelstrom)

Water Elemental: When summoned on Aifon Isle, when the unit splits they will start at full health and have half the experience of the main unit. (Perhaps also have a mini water elemental have a chance to turn into a proper elemental after a successful victory, but these won't be empowered by the Aifon Isle)

Ice Elemental: When summoned on Letum Frigus the unit can create a blizzard




A new promotion for summons could be added requiring combat 5 allowing them to free themself from their master allowing more summoned units (perhaps similar to the way freelancer does it)

I really like what Evalis wrote above me here, its spot on. Maybe a sollution to mananodes/mapsize would be to make mana nodes an option next to mapsize option in custom games where you would have a choice from say 0 mana nodes to 20 mana nodes per player in the map. That way you would control the difficulty of obtaining mana and restricting affinity for units in larger maps. I know this would probably destroy the wildmana mod though and force ppl to rewrite it.

I like the mage suggestions alot aswell :)