Hello guys and girls (are there any girls here?),

Don't you think some modmods in this forum are ready to be permanently added to Rise of Mankind? My opinion is that some of it had already been tested and approved by a great number of players. I suggest every modmodder in this forum to post a poll in their threads trying to answer some questions:

- Is this modmod bug-clean?
- Is this modmod balanced?
- Is this modmod a valuable, cool addition to RoM?

It's very tiring have to download all the cool addons for every version of RoM, and it becomes installation errors much more easy and common. Some of you may reply that is better to maintain all mods modular, and people who want it, install it. Maybe maintain it as a modular but default option be the best solution. This way, people who don't want (would be a minority, if the mod was approved in the poll) would have to move that to the Unloaded Modules folder.

This weekend, I'll work in my Higher Unit Maintenance Mod, and try to improve and balance it for the 2.71 version. After that, I'll create the poll for it.

Cheers,

Konrad

I'd vote for this. Especially since I use of 80% of the one's available.

Yeah! I use as many modmods as are out there, if they fit my playing style (like higher units maintance does) and if they don't make probs with all the others modmods allready installed.

The poll idea is good too (I like democracy!).

*emphatic nod*

Just think how much quicker it would be to download once, then take a quick look in the modules directory and delete the 1-2 you don't use. Rather than downloading each one separately, and checking each one first to make sure it's compatible with the current version.

The mods can still be maintained separately, so that modmodders can update them between big version of ROM, but if they come out with ROM each time it iterates a version number, it's still a lot less work for the end user.

You will all need to agree a directory structure though, it's a bit of a mess at the moment...

I would appreaciate it too... i´ve installed all the modmods from aaranda and only the mods from him to install took me about 1 hour but i like them so much...;)

For example i think aarandas stuff and afforess stuff should be included. Vincentz stuff as well..

by the way, I´m not a modder (no patience) :( but I thank you all for the amazing work you`re doing. For Rise of mankind i would even pay...

In the end its all up to zappara which mods gets added. (Its his RoM ;)) But what we could do, was to make a MegaModPack or something like that (Too bad the name R.o.m.e is already taken ;)). That way it would be easy to download/install, and could still be maintained by us modders. It would be a mess for zappara to implement every mod that just had a small update.

I also propose that other modmodders make an attempt to put their mods under Project folder like Vincentz does and make the name for themselves like he does. That way, end-users can choose or not from the list within that specific modmodder's project folder, and also not bother Zappara with it because they are grouped under Project :D.
Just my 2 cents!

I like this idea. I was hoping that one or two of the wonders from my modular wonders modmods would end up being a permanent addition. Modular Wonders I is completely done, and will only need updates with new RoM versions. Modular Wonders II, I think is done, but there are a few changes I think I will make when the next RoM version forces me to update.

The only downside of making modmods permanent additions is that it is that much more work for Zappara next time he updates the mod.

Warning: Shameless plugging below
Modular Wonders I (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=318293)
Modular Wonders II (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326384)

This is a great idea. At the very least, all the key modmods should be included (Aaranda, Afforess, General Staff & Vincentz) whether its in the form of a permanent addition or a modmod megapack.

Since Zappara has stated that RoM 2.8 will come out around 3 months time, perhaps the above mentioned modders will begin working on a modmod megapack? :)

A MegaModPack may work but what happens when someone updates one of their components to it? Do they create a patch or make a new MegeModPack? If patches are made then when are they combined into a single MegaModPack? What about us who have limited access (bandwidth or max download) to the internet? I got upset when I downloaded one of AAranda's early packs because it included some stuff (UN mod) that came with RoM and so I wasted my download limit on stuff I already had. this is also why I post the missing movies as single folders rather than putting then all in one file.

I like the idea of having projects/modmoder name/modmod as a standard for each modmodder if they have multiple works. Since most of the stuff I did has already been merged into RoM I probably wont need one ;)

Personally I like to be able to move in and out mods, for example I tried AAranda's religion mod before it became a single mod and was a bunch of single religion mods. I found that adding almost any 3 or 4 religions made the game better but adding more made it worse. This was dependent on the size and nature of the map I was playing. Which ever way we go I think we should keep this ability of moving modmods in and out easily.

The poll idea is good too (I like democracy!).

Beyond democracy, this is a wikicracy. :)

For Rise of mankind i would even pay...

Shhh... Don't give Zappara ideas...

In the end its all up to zappara which mods gets added. (Its his RoM ;)) But what we could do, was to make a MegaModPack or something like that (Too bad the name R.o.m.e is already taken ;)). That way it would be easy to download/install, and could still be maintained by us modders. It would be a mess for zappara to implement every mod that just had a small update.

Some modmods are already completed and maybe won't need any update. Your Secret Agents, for instance, IMO could already figure in RoM. From time to time, you would PM Zap with small updates, that if it was necessary...

I like the idea of a big Megamod pack that all the modmoders could update. Perhaps Aaranda, Afforess (I) , General Staff, Jabarto, Jooyo & Vincentz could lead it. Together, whenever two or more modules need updating we would release our own independent patches, but not too many that it would be confusing (thus defeating our original purpose.) And of course, if any other modder to Rise of Mankind came along, we could include them too. If developers need a better way to share downloads without hassles, just a one click direct link, they should try Dropbox (https://www.getdropbox.com/referrals/NTQ5ODA1OQ). A free sharing service, with option to pay more if you need it. (Sorry, Shameless plug.) But you can get up to 5gb of online space free, if you should so need it. (The 10mb limit here on CFC is a little... prohibitive.)

I have plans to include all my mods in a folder labeled "Afforess's addons" or some such name, similar to Vincentz. I will probably update it as soon as Jooyo fixes his bug.

Also, the use of MLF control files makes it easy to turn on and off mods. A simple change from a "1" to a "0" turns off a module, so you don't have to delete files.

Any other ideas?

Also, the use of MLF control files makes it easy to turn on and off mods. A simple change from a "1" to a "0" turns off a module, so you don't have to delete files...

This is only true if you are comfortable with editing files, if you are not (and mamy people aren't) then moving a folder from Modules to Unloaded Modules feels safer. Luckily going that way will not break stuff because the MLF control doesn't care if a specified directory is not there. Going the other way could cause some problems but only if the MLF does not have the folder specified in which case the worst that can happen is nothing.

I like the idea as well. It would make finding compatible modules for latest RoM version much easier and you would get most of the modules with 1 easy download!

A MegaModPack may work but what happens when someone updates one of their components to it? Do they create a patch or make a new MegeModPack? If patches are made then when are they combined into a single MegaModPack?

I suggest that only proven and relatively stable mods should be included in the pack. To me, this isn't just about convenience - its also about quality control, ensuring that you don't play for a week only to experience crashes, and then discover that the patch fix kills your saved games.

For patches, as Afforess said, there can always be interim patches eventually leading up to a new version of the ModMegaPack. Which ones you apply depends on how adventurous you are.

BTW, I just want to say thank you to everyone involved with RoM and its mods. I haven't had such fun since since Civ 1.

I think this would be a good idea, but I also feel that it would take away an important element only found in modmods: Frequent updates. If certain modmods are incorporated into mainstream ROM, the makers of those modmods may find their additions harder to update, as people would still have to hunt through the forums for updates to these smaller parts. If the modmods were to be handled entirely by Zap, however, then they would receive much less individual attention, and therefore loose some quality.

I think a program that would download the modmods for you and install would be the best option. Then you wouldn't have to take the time to find and download all of the modmods as they would be right there in a list, but the upgradeability would stay about the same because the individuals would still be upgrading the modmod.
The main problems with this idea would be the creation of the program (who would?) and where would the database for all of the modmods be. It would be difficult to impossible to download them from the hodgepodge of sites that they are on currently, but it is difficult to do so now. And then you have the problem of how the program figures out how to install, but if the modmod developers are cooperative, it could probably be done easily.

I think a program that would download the modmods for you and install would be the best option. Then you wouldn't have to take the time to find and download all of the modmods as they would be right there in a list, but the upgradeability would stay about the same because the individuals would still be upgrading the modmod.
The main problems with this idea would be the creation of the program (who would?) and where would the database for all of the modmods be. It would be difficult to impossible to download them from the hodgepodge of sites that they are on currently, but it is difficult to do so now. And then you have the problem of how the program figures out how to install, but if the modmod developers are cooperative, it could probably be done easily.

I don't think I would trust someone else's program and its abilities. However, a large forum thread could be created that maintains a consolidated list of all the modmod's, their current status, (WIP, Final, Beta...), any incompatibilities and perhaps a universal CoreDLL.

I like the idea of a sticky thread in the modmod forum where each major modmodder could have a small post with references to their thread. The first post would then contain all the small modmodders mods and could be maintained (and originally posted) by a modmodder that frequently visits the forum. That way each major modder could edit/update their own posts.
Though it requires some timing on the modmodders behalf, or a big fat DONT POST IN THIS THREAD until we all got a post in it.

BTW : I think Zappara once had a modmod thread, but as I recall it is not up to date.

I like the idea of a big Megamod pack that all the modmoders could update. Perhaps Aaranda, Afforess (I) , General Staff, Jabarto, Jooyo & Vincentz could lead it. Together, whenever two or more modules need updating we would release our own independent patches, but not too many that it would be confusing (thus defeating our original purpose.) And of course, if any other modder to Rise of Mankind came along, we could include them too. If developers need a better way to share downloads without hassles, just a one click direct link, they should try Dropbox (https://www.getdropbox.com/referrals/NTQ5ODA1OQ). A free sharing service, with option to pay more if you need it. (Sorry, Shameless plug.) But you can get up to 5gb of online space free, if you should so need it. (The 10mb limit here on CFC is a little... prohibitive.)

I have plans to include all my mods in a folder labeled "Afforess's addons" or some such name, similar to Vincentz. I will probably update it as soon as Jooyo fixes his bug.

Also, the use of MLF control files makes it easy to turn on and off mods. A simple change from a "1" to a "0" turns off a module, so you don't have to delete files.

Any other ideas?

I agree - it would be even more convenient if we could choose which mods we want to include in the game by "ticking" them in the main menu (as I currently do - or undo- for instance, for revolutions and/or barbarian civilizations and/or dynamic names). If feasible, I think an addition like this would keep things tidier and make life much easier (at least for me).

I agree - it would be even more convenient if we could choose which mods we want to include in the game by "ticking" them in the main menu (as I currently do - or undo- for instance, for revolutions and/or barbarian civilizations and/or dynamic names). If feasible, I think an addition like this would keep things tidier and make life much easier (at least for me).

That's not quite what I meant, the options of the game startup are controlled by the SDK. I was implying a standard forum post for only modmodders displaying all the addons available.

I don't know why WoC team added those MLF control files in the form they did - those files do not seem to support modular format at all so you can only have 1 control file in each directory and at the same time the WoC team improved other modular functions greatly.. I hope MLF control files will be also modular in future ie. each directory could have multiple control files (different filenames) - this requires SDK changes of course.

Another thing about modmods - I've now checked some of them and seems that some modders do not yet fully understand the WoC modular format and instead they still use the BtS format meaning if they add something to the RoM's default units, they include this units all xml modifiers in their module while they should only add the changed xml modifiers to their module. As an example Vincentz Jungle camp mod does it the wrong way. WoC SDK takes care of reading the mod's default unit XML and then it merges the changes from all modules the specified xml modifiers.

Now you might ask "Why should I use WoC format instead of BtS default?". Because with WoC several modules can apply changes to default stuff and in BtS format only the last loaded will be applied. So please try to always from now on make modules in WoC style and if you change some default RoM objects to behave differently, only have the changed xml modifiers in your module. If you do not, then you probably break other modules and cause all kinds of conflicts between different modules.

Another thing that I recently thought was that each module could probably add modular concept info to sevopedia's RoM concepts list - I'll have to test if this is possible to make. This way each module could have "readme" inside the game in RoM concepts pages. :)

Anyway, I can add some smaller modmods to main modpack in future versions. They could be located in Unloaded Modules just like the few other modmods already are or I could have them enabled by default, if I think they're great addition to the RoM ;)

Another thing about modmods - I've now checked some of them and seems that some modders do not yet fully understand the WoC modular format and instead they still use the BtS format meaning if they add something to the RoM's default units, they include this units all xml modifiers in their module while they should only add the changed xml modifiers to their module.

I didn't actually know that.

I will fix and re-upload :)

Could any of the main modmodders prepare a single file containing all the modmods and the installation steps (including how to exclude a not-wanted modular modmod)?

I don't know why WoC team added those MLF control files in the form they did - those files do not seem to support modular format at all so you can only have 1 control file in each directory and at the same time the WoC team improved other modular functions greatly.. I hope MLF control files will be also modular in future ie. each directory could have multiple control files (different filenames) - this requires SDK changes of course.

Another thing about modmods - I've now checked some of them and seems that some modders do not yet fully understand the WoC modular format and instead they still use the BtS format meaning if they add something to the RoM's default units, they include this units all xml modifiers in their module while they should only add the changed xml modifiers to their module. As an example Vincentz Jungle camp mod does it the wrong way. WoC SDK takes care of reading the mod's default unit XML and then it merges the changes from all modules the specified xml modifiers.

Now you might ask "Why should I use WoC format instead of BtS default?". Because with WoC several modules can apply changes to default stuff and in BtS format only the last loaded will be applied. So please try to always from now on make modules in WoC style and if you change some default RoM objects to behave differently, only have the changed xml modifiers in your module. If you do not, then you probably break other modules and cause all kinds of conflicts between different modules.

Another thing that I recently thought was that each module could probably add modular concept info to sevopedia's RoM concepts list - I'll have to test if this is possible to make. This way each module could have "readme" inside the game in RoM concepts pages. :)

Anyway, I can add some smaller modmods to main modpack in future versions. They could be located in Unloaded Modules just like the few other modmods already are or I could have them enabled by default, if I think they're great addition to the RoM ;)

i think this post needs it's own thread just incase it has been missed!

As an example Vincentz Jungle camp mod does it the wrong way. WoC SDK takes care of reading the mod's default unit XML and then it merges the changes from all modules the specified xml modifiers.


Could you please specify that.

This is how the junglecamp units look like. I dont think it could be more modular, but if its wrong then I stand corrected :

EDIT : Nwm. I just saw zappara's post date and double checked it with my 1.2 upload date. Though I already had made the WoC changes before the post date, I didnt upload it before 2 days after zappara posted. Makes sense.
BTW thanks to whoever suggested I put upload dates on my mod. It can be quite helpfull even for me (with a memory like a swizz cheese ;))

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!-- edited with XMLSPY v2004 rel. 2 U (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Alex Mantzaris (Firaxis Games) -->
<!-- Sid Meier's Civilization 4 -->
<!-- Copyright Firaxis Games 2005 -->
<!-- -->
<!-- Unit Infos -->
<Civ4UnitInfos xmlns="x-schema:JUNGLECAMP_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">
<UnitInfos>
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_WORKER</Class>
<Type>UNIT_WORKER</Type>
<Builds>
<Build>
<BuildType>BUILD_JUNGLE_CAMP</BuildType>
<bBuild>1</bBuild>
</Build>
</Builds>
</UnitInfo>
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_WORKER</Class>
<Type>UNIT_INDIAN_FAST_WORKER</Type>
<Builds>
<Build>
<BuildType>BUILD_JUNGLE_CAMP</BuildType>
<bBuild>1</bBuild>
</Build>
</Builds>
</UnitInfo>
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_WORKER_ANDROID</Class>
<Type>UNIT_WORKER_ANDROID</Type>
<Builds>
<Build>
<BuildType>BUILD_JUNGLE_CAMP</BuildType>
<bBuild>1</bBuild>
</Build>
</Builds>
</UnitInfo>
</UnitInfos>
</Civ4UnitInfos>

BTW thanks to whoever suggested I put upload dates on my mod.


I just started doing that too. Go figure.

I think (as others have mentioned) we need to create a sticked thread that ONLY modmoders can post in, with only 1-2 posts each (depending on content) that list all their modmods. That way we have a central location to get everything.

Could you please specify that.

This is how the junglecamp units look like. I dont think it could be more modular, but if its wrong then I stand corrected :

EDIT : Nwm. I just saw zappara's post date and double checked it with my 1.2 upload date. Though I already had made the WoC changes before the post date, I didnt upload it before 2 days after zappara posted. Makes sense.
BTW thanks to whoever suggested I put upload dates on my mod. It can be quite helpfull even for me (with a memory like a swizz cheese ;))

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!-- edited with XMLSPY v2004 rel. 2 U (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Alex Mantzaris (Firaxis Games) -->
<!-- Sid Meier's Civilization 4 -->
<!-- Copyright Firaxis Games 2005 -->
<!-- -->
<!-- Unit Infos -->
<Civ4UnitInfos xmlns="x-schema:JUNGLECAMP_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">
<UnitInfos>
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_WORKER</Class>
<Type>UNIT_WORKER</Type>
<Builds>
<Build>
<BuildType>BUILD_JUNGLE_CAMP</BuildType>
<bBuild>1</bBuild>
</Build>
</Builds>
</UnitInfo>
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_WORKER</Class>
<Type>UNIT_INDIAN_FAST_WORKER</Type>
<Builds>
<Build>
<BuildType>BUILD_JUNGLE_CAMP</BuildType>
<bBuild>1</bBuild>
</Build>
</Builds>
</UnitInfo>
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_WORKER_ANDROID</Class>
<Type>UNIT_WORKER_ANDROID</Type>
<Builds>
<Build>
<BuildType>BUILD_JUNGLE_CAMP</BuildType>
<bBuild>1</bBuild>
</Build>
</Builds>
</UnitInfo>
</UnitInfos>
</Civ4UnitInfos>Yup, I guess I had downloaded the older version which didn't have modules yet in WoC format. Anyway, as you've shown, the above method is correct way to make the modules if your modmod changes any of the default RoM objects. :)