I have civ unique National Wonders called Atreides Landing Stage, Harkonnen Landing Stage that provide an imported good (e.g. Caladanian Wine) from the relevant homeworld. I am adding House Ecaz with the idea that they have an advantage in number and quantity of imported goods, Sapho, Semuta, etc. I don't want to have three separate buildings for them, Sapho Suppliers, Semuta Suppliers, which is the way I have to do it now - the best way would be to have a single Ecaz Landing Stage that provides all the Ecaz bonus resources, just like the FFH2 palaces provide 3 bonuses.

My idea in (2) is that with the Space Ports tech you can build a Space Port that provides more of your civs unique resource (the Landing Stages available at Off World Trade provides some), but also two other resources from other homeworlds. Having a pool of buildings was an implementation idea I had to achieve this. If Koma's Homeworld proof-of-concept goes well, then we could build in an element of true inter-planetary trade.

So your concept is that each civ would have 2 resources, and when a civ builds this building, it randomly gets 2 of the other civs' resources. Is that right? It may be possible to accomplish this in onBuildingBuilt, and just "stick the resources in the ground" underneath the city where it is built. Does it matter if the civs are at war when the building is built? What if they go to war later or get killed by a third party?

This is roughly what is going to be present in 1.3.8, which is my starting point for the off world goods idea.

Key: Building -> Bonus Good provided

Atreides:
Atreides Landing Stage -> Caladanian Wine (3 Units), +1 happy (increased with Banqueting Hall)

Harkonnen:
Harkonnen Landing Stage -> Inkvine (3 Units), some change to Slave Pit

Corrino:
Corrino Landing Stage -> Shigawire (3 Units), strategic resource for Sardukaar

Ix:
Ix Landing Stage -> Thinking Machines (3 Units), strategic resource for some units

Tleilaxu:
Tleilaxu -> Slig (3 Units), +1 happy (increased with Banqueting Hall)

Ordos:
Ordos Landing Stage -> Opafire (3 Units)

Bene Gesserit:
BG Landing Stage -> Meta-Cyanide (3 Units)

Fenring:
Fenring Landing Stage -> Kindjal (3 Units)

Fremen/Sietch Tabr:
Stillsuit Maker -> Fremen Stillsuits (3 Units), +1 health

Ecaz:
Sapho Suppliers -> Sapho Juice (4 Units), strategic resource for Mentats
Semuta Suppliers -> Semuta (4 Units), +2 happy

One problem with making imported goods a strategic requirement for some special units (I think mainstream units should be buildable with just Arrakis bonus resources) is that if Ecaz aren't in the game you won't be able to trade for Sapho Juice and make Mentats. So there has to be a way you can get Sapho Juice even if Ecaz aren't in the game which brings us to my Space Ports idea that you have quoted in the OP.

Why should you get the homeworld goods of other factions?

Wouldn't it be much better that when you build the thing, you get say 3 copies of your homeworld resource, and then if you want anyone else's homeworld resource you have to trade for it through the in-game diplomacy engine? So you can only get the resource if you have good relations.

I like the idea of encouraging trade more; trade is pretty low here since there aren't a ton of luxury goods around.

And it will make the homeworld goods feel more special if the only way you can get them is by trading for them.

Wouldn't it be much better that when you build the thing, you get say 3 copies of your homeworld resource, and then if you want anyone else's homeworld resource you have to trade for it through the in-game diplomacy engine? So you can only get the resource if you have good relations.

I like the idea of encouraging trade more; trade is pretty low here since there aren't a ton of luxury goods around.

What you said is precisely the idea. Atreides Landing Stage provides 3 units of Caladanian Wine and so on. The only reason to allow access to other factions bonuses is if they aren't in the game since some of the bonuses have strategic benefit (which is, in itself, an experiment).

I like it, and I like how it can also add to faction differentiation; some factions could have more or better trade-good imports if their faction is more trade-good oriented.

And I like the idea of tying it into specific units with strategic resources; you can only build battlemechs if you can trade with the ixians to get thinking machines.

Also, it increases the value of diplomacy; and so heightens the rift between the terraformers and the spicers. You could also add a weakness for Fremen; no imported goods. They can get some nice unique buildings (sietch, deathstills, fremen windtrap), but no trade goods.

You could get rid of the imported nutrients, incense and silk if you implement these.

I would make the Harkonnen import slaves.
I think you need to think of something else for BGs - maybe Soostone, if that is no longer a dune resource? I don't really see them trading meta-cyanide to outsiders.

Glad you like the idea. Yes, Imported Silk, etc will be gone.

The Fremen will actually have Fremen Stillsuits (+1 health) as their unique bonus resource. My rationale is while every faction can emulate the Stillsuit, Fremen Stillsuits are still the best.

If you check out this CSV (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=221724&d=1248193344) you'll see the units associated with each resource. I'll be turning this into XML in the next couple of evenings as I finalize patch 1.3.8.

I'll think of something else for BG.

You could get rid of the imported nutrients, incense and silk if you implement these.

Perhaps this is the whole point of the bonus rebalancing, but I have a huge problem with limited health now, which I can only solve by getting nutrients as early as possible. So I hope that there will be enough other health bonuses to support getting rid of nutrients.

deliverator,
i think, you should make civs, to have 2 quantities of their imported resource -
so they will be able to trade it to other factions.


***
oh haven't noticed thats exactly what david wrote...
:)

Perhaps this is the whole point of the bonus rebalancing, but I have a huge problem with limited health now, which I can only solve by getting nutrients as early as possible. So I hope that there will be enough other health bonuses to support getting rid of nutrients.

Health is high on my list to address with this patch. Hopefully, the changed Water Cache and Food Processing buildings will address that...

The only reason to allow access to other factions bonuses is if they aren't in the game since some of the bonuses have strategic benefit (which is, in itself, an experiment).

Having a strategic resource which can only be obtained from another civ sounds like an interesting experiment. One problem is if you are at war with them. Another problem is if they aren't even in the game. Both of these make me a little nervous.

I suppose your suggestion is to make a pool of the resources belonging to civs not in the game, and each spaceport built has a random chance of getting 3 units of one of those, in addition to the regular one. For strategic resources, this makes the random pick really important.

Maybe the first version should stay away from strategic resources which work this way, and just give health/happiness. A requirement for your own UU seems fine, like you proposed for Corrino, but it also seems "self-canceling". It is the same as giving the UU a required building and/or required tech.

There's always nervousness when you try an experiment! The thing about strategic resources is that you only need them to build a unit. You don't lose the unit if you lose access to the resources. So you could just do a deal with someone to get a resource to build some units, and then break the deal, and even go to war with the civ that traded you the resource. I want to start with at least one real test case, probably Sapho -> Mentat which can be a superior fighter for now, and Thinking Machines for some of the Ix units.

The random pick could either be exciting or (more likely) frustrating. It would probably be better to allow you to choose the other two bonuses you would like on completion of the Space Port, if that was possible. This would represent obtaining a source of the goods from the black market or smugglers.

An imported requirement for your own UU is self-cancelling as you say. It only works for non-unique units, but we can make some of the current UUs available to anyone who can get the required resources to build them.

The random pick could either be exciting or (more likely) frustrating. It would probably be better to allow you to choose the other two bonuses you would like on completion of the Space Port, if that was possible.


That may be possible. Suppose we have a popup which comes when the building is complete, that allows you to pick *one* of the available bonuses. You get three units of it, one to keep and 2 to maybe trade. You can either pick one of your unique ones, or one of the public ones, but you have to pick. The public ones have a limit so that only, say 2-3 players can pick them. This adds some pressure. But I think you would want to build multiple of the buildings, so you could get multiple picks.

Maybe the spacer guild unique ability could be to cause some cramps in the availability of these resources.

From the implementation side, I am not sure how to grant *three* copies of a bonus. I can certainly grant one by burying it under the city, so I will have to study that also.

From the implementation side, I am not sure how to grant *three* copies of a bonus. I can certainly grant one by burying it under the city, so I will have to study that also.

That's why I'm doing it with buildings because they can produces multiple units of a bonus already.

Perhaps this is the whole point of the bonus rebalancing, but I have a huge problem with limited health now, which I can only solve by getting nutrients as early as possible.

I don't see limited health as a problem. Do you have limited city growth? I actually see this as a balancing device; given the explosive growth given by windtraps and wells, health helps keep the city size down a little.

There's nothing that says it should always be easy to have no health problems.

Having a strategic resource which can only be obtained from another civ sounds like an interesting experiment.

Such a strategic resource would either:
a) only be used for a handful of specialized units (like Ixian battlebots; basically, Ixian UUs that might be available to other civs if they trade for the resource. So they won't actually be UUs because all civs can build them with the resource, but in practice they'll function like a UU).
AND/OR
b) Be a resource that gives builds X% faster with resource Y, rather than requires resource Y.

The random pick could either be exciting or (more likely) frustrating

I hate the idea of a random pick. It could also lead to frustrating nonsense, like somehow getting free resource access to the homeworld resource of your archenemy.

My suggestion would basically be to not have any of the resources be important enough that it matters if they aren't in the game, to make the building a national wonder that is retained on city-conquest (so if you capture another civ, you also get their imported good), and then have each civ only able to build their own national wonder (which gives only their resource).

Suppose we have N number of potential bonuses. N will be relatively large, if each potential civ has two unique and there are several generic. Say it is 20. One possibility is to define 20 buildings. Some of them could be UU national wonders, and some could be World Wonders to limit the number available. This may work. The only problem I can think of is making the civ-specific resources available to all, when that civ does not happen to be in the game.

So I was thinking of a popup picklist somehow, but I cannot quite see how the mechanics could work. For now, we can certainly try with buildings and just overlook what happens when a particular civ is not in the game.

I don't see limited health as a problem. Do you have limited city growth?

I wrote my experience in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8272651&postcount=39). Is your experience in the early game different from mine?

I have never had early game growth problems; cities grow much faster in this mod than in vanilla, because you can get a massive water income from working only 3-4 tiles (wells + windtraps). To compare to vanilla; for 6 food you'll have to work 2 tiles, but here you can get that from 1 tile, leaving the other citizen free to be a specialist.

So, yeah, you don't have full health in the early game, but that is a good thing, otherwise population growth (and slavery whipping) could get really out of control. It also makes the early game health buildings more valuable, which is nice; you can invest in infrastructure to increase your pop-growth rate, but these benefits shrink with time as you get more health resources.

On this note: the civic that gives +3 beakers per specialist needs a nerf; getting 6 income from a merchant or scientist specialist is generatnig way more income than you get from working most tiles, so its way too easy to run a specialist economy.

The fact that cottage tiles don't give any food makes them even weaker compared to running specialists.

With help from other modders, I have gotten the trade list popup to work. See this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8293290&postcount=12) and its thread for internal details. You can see a screenshot of the prototype at this link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=221977&d=1248374764).

Basically each offworld resource we want should be a building of its own buildingclass. We have the four convoy buildings like this already, which I used for my prototype.

I added a new building, "Contract", which you can build when you have space ports technology. When you complete it, you get a popup as shown in the attachment. The python can control which possible contracts show up here, so we can limit the number, and include civ-specific ones which can be given to other civs if the normal owner is not played in this game. When you select one of the choices, the appropriate building appears in your city. You can build the contract building any number of times; it never actually stays in your city. There is one bug; if you build the building and there are no contracts available, then the generic contract building sits there. Once we have the mechanics worked out I think this will never happen; there will be some resources which can be contracted any number of times.

I propose that deliverator should add whatever buildingclasses he feels, to represent all these resources; then in a following patch such as 1.3.10, I will add the generic contract building.

This implementation uses random events. So I also completely emptied out the event triggers and event files. To use this feature we will have to have random events turned on. Later, we can add more random events.

This looks cool david, good work. I am aiming to have patch 1.3.8 released in around 24 hours time hopefully. Once we get some playtest feedback on what I've implemented we can decide how to evolve it using this code.

looks cool david - im eager to see more :)

how about the possibility to buy units from offworld - they will be more expensive and will be perhaps a bit stronger or weaker,
just like in the space port in dune games -
perhaps you can make something in the python,
that you build a space port that will alow to "order" units that will arrive a few turns later, and they will cost money(using my gold cost code).

Paying the guild to get units from offworld/your homeworld is the key part of the Homeworld idea (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8263325&postcount=2). I'm happy to be patient and wait for Koma to get back to do a prototype. He has the experience of creating custom screens. In the future we can maybe combine offworld goods and offworld units/mercenaries into the one place.

how about the possibility to buy units from offworld

I agree with the concept; we have mentioned it a couple of times in different threads. I haven't played Civ Col, but Deliverator and koma13 have discussed the "Europe screen" where you can order units. I have not thought too much about how that would work. I suppose there would be a new button in the user interface, which would bring up this screen. Each unit you could order (UU and regular units, based on your tech) would have a button on this screen, and some cost in gold.

I don't know how to build new user interface screens; I suppose it may be possible in python. Adding the unit and deducting the gold is easy.

I actually think it may be interesting to be able to obtain one or two units AHEAD of your current tech level if you can afford a very large amount of gold.

I'm pretty sure Koma has the python know-how to do the custom screens. In Civ4Col he modded the vanilla Europe screen quite a lot - moving things around, adding new dialogues and graphics, etc. For example, he added a dialog where you could change which specific port your ship sailed to in the New World - which is not a feature in vanilla.

yeah - getting units from the future can be cool and interesting.

You could add a new screen to the game called homeworld that actiwates after bulding spaceport.
And simulate trade with homeworld.
Homeworld will get spice from dune for some homeworld goods like caladanian wine or other reosurces.
You could maake option for "buying" some units from homeworld planet...
like starport in dune 2 or dune 2000.

If you read the subforum some more, you'll find that we have already discussed the homeworld idea (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8263325&postcount=2) and we plan to do a prototype. :)

i know but now i don't have much time to read all posts...
so i just write my ideas...

feel free AstralDream :)

In 1.3.10, I will revise the set of buildings for these offworld trade items and use the "contract" mechanism I have described a few posts back. Once you have a space port, there is one generic building "Offworld Contract" you can build. When it completes you get a picklist of the available contracts. The following contracts are available:

Caladanian Wine (Atreides)
Slig (Tleilaxu)
Sardaukar Cooperation (Corrino)
Kindjal (Fenring)
Thinking Machines (Ix)
Opafire (Ordos)
Semuta (Ecaz)
Sapho Juice (Ecaz)

If the named civilization is in the game, only that civilization may select it. Otherwise, any civilization may select it. Each contract may only be selected once per game. Each civ may build any number of contracts, as long as there is at least one available contract when they start. Once a choice is made, the appropriate building appears in the city, and gives whatever effect the building has (for example, providing three units of the resource, or whatever.)

Suppose there is a game with Atreides, Tleilaxu, Ordos, Harkonnen and Chouhada Fremen. This means the other contracts, Sardaukar, Kindjal, Thinking Machines, Semuta and Sapho Juice are available to all. Suppose Atreides completes the first contract building. They can select any one of Caladanian Wines, Sardaukar, Kindjal, TM, Semuta or SJ. Suppose they select SJ. Now suppose Harkonnen builds a contract building. They can select any one of Sardaukar, Kindjal, TM or Semuta.

Any additional things we should put into this system?

now thats sounds like something cool,

i like it alot.

how will you base it? via python?

now thats sounds like something cool, i like it alot. how will you base it? via python?

Thanks. The details were suggested by several other modders in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328864). It is a random event triggered by the contract building.

oh that the think you posted a pic of,

i liked it a lot.

its different then ub's, its better.

For 1.3.10, I think the Landing Stage should stay to give the initial civ unique bonus resource. I'd like for each civ to always get their own.

Then when you build the Space Port you get an opportunity to choose a couple of other imported resources to add to your civ unique one.

For 1.3.10, I think the Landing Stage should stay to give the initial civ unique bonus resource. I'd like for each civ to always get their own.

Then when you build the Space Port you get an opportunity to choose a couple of other imported resources to add to your civ unique one.

I like this.

For 1.3.10, I think the Landing Stage should stay to give the initial civ unique bonus resource. I'd like for each civ to always get their own.

Then when you build the Space Port you get an opportunity to choose a couple of other imported resources to add to your civ unique one.

There are two cases: a huge game where all the civs are in use (could also be a smaller game where all the civs with interesting offworld resources are in use); or a game where some civs with interesting resources are not in use.

For the first case, we have said that if a civ is in the game, other players *cannot* contract that resource. So the spaceport would not be useful from that standpoint.

For the second case, it seems simpler to me to have one buildable object with a picklist; so if you are Atreides and Ecaz is not in the game, you could contract for Sapho Juice first if you wanted to.

It's easy enough to implement either way; let's just agree first.

we have said that if a civ is in the game, other players *cannot* contract that resource.

I think this might be too strong. Bear in mind, Space Ports does come quite a bit later than Off World Trade at the moment. We could say each imported bonus is available to the owning civ, plus one unit being available to any other civ who builds a Space Port and chooses it, representing the securing of a secondary source from smugglers/black market. No more than two civs would have a source of each imported good.

Part of the idea of having two buildings for imported goods is that Landing Stage comes at Off World Trade which is available much earlier. Space Ports represents the expanding of off world trade to include more goods.

We are discussing simultaneously in the unit progression thread. If other civs can get my unique bonus, then they can use my unique units against me. I do not think that makes sense.

I see no reason not to combine both ideas. The landing base gives you your own resource, the spaceport gives you a pick of any resource not in the game (or more copies of your own resource if everyone else is in the game).

I see no reason not to combine both ideas. The landing base gives you your own resource, the spaceport gives you a pick of any resource not in the game (or more copies of your own resource if everyone else is in the game).

This would certainly work. But in some games, there aren't any interesting unplayed resources; and it isn't clear that 6 copies of a bonus lets you do something that 3 copies didn't. One possible solution is to add a few offworld resources which are not civ-limited and can be chosen more than once. The original Nutrients Convoy is an exact example; it can have a few copies, and anybody can get them. If we added these, then the spaceport would always be worthwhile. Then the only question is whether we need two buildings for this, or if one is enough.

The original Nutrients Convoy is an exact example; it can have a few copies, and anybody can get them. If we added these, then the spaceport would always be worthwhile.

This sounds fine to me, but I'd probably just add 1 default option and make it slightly weaker than the other ones. Imported goods should ususally be better than the default.

Then the only question is whether we need two buildings for this, or if one is enough.

I like the idea of 2 buildings spreading it over the tech-tree more, and making it easier to access your homeworld resource than those of other civs.

Thinking about this, I've changed my mind from post 36. I agree that if a civ is in the game, other players *cannot* contract that resource.

Some shorthand:
UR - Unique Resource e.g. Caladanian Wind, Slig, Sardaukar Coop
URU - Unique Resource Unit e.g. Mentat, Sardaukar, Ginaz Swordmaster

To give the Space Port a purpose if all civs are in the game, and we have the Landing Stage (or replacement) providing the URs, I see two options:

1) As david suggests, we have a list of other imported bonuses that are not URs for civs. The Appendix has several other planets/items we could use for ideas such as Richese, the alternative-to-Ix machine makers, or Chusuk "the so-called 'Music Planet' noted for the quality of its musical instruments." These can have a mixture of benefits, some enabling units, some happy, etc.

2) We could expand the URs so that each civ has two, one strategic (i.e. enabling a URU) and one that gives some other benefit. The non-strategic ones could then be available for contracts (this is fudging the uniqueness I know).

You could do both of these I suppose, but that might be too much. I think option (1) is probably better.

mmm how about this- kind of a mix:

1 imported Resource - divided to 3 effects:

1. UR - Unique Resource e.g. Caladanian Wind, Slig, Sardaukar Coop

2. URU - Unique Resource Unit e.g. Mentat, Sardaukar, Ginaz Swordmaster

3. urb - unique resource building - a resource that allows the construction of a certain building that gives a good advantage - like a special power promotion, or something like this.

use the unique bonus for each civ - each civ have a unique building that imports a resourse
their function - some get - urb, some get utu's.
this can enable more variation between civs, they wont all give units to the civs that can trade with them - some will allow to share their uniqie special buildings with the imported resource preqeq.

and in addition,
each can have a contract to one more res,that will allow access to another one of the imported good form the already existing urs of each civ - so - if theres a civ that does not play - you still can contract its res, or if all civs in play..so you just get access to another one of these resources.
this is a less prefered option - i rathar just have that the contract enables abonus that increase health/commernce/health.

i will build each civ something like this for patch 1.3.9 - later on you guys can change it according to the way we decide.


***
humm.....
maybe we can split - the unique imported bonus allows units

and the contracts allow unique buildings ?

This sounds interesting.

So the buildings all provide a UR. The resource is either:
a) A happiness or health resource - possibly superior to basic resources. So, slig meat could give +1 health, +1 happy for eg.
b) A strategic resource that allows construction of a particular URU. So the Sardaukar Cooperation resource could allow construction of the Saradaukar I and Sardaukar II units (one is later game and higher strength) that are available to all factions but require this resource, and the Imperial Sardaukar I and Imperial Saudarkar II units are UUs that replace these two available only to the imperium civ, and are even better.
Similarly, the Thinking machines could be a strategic resource required for the construction of the Cymek unit (available to all civs), and Ix faction could also have an Ixian Battlemech which was a UU replacement for the Cymek.
c) A strategic resource that is required for construction of a particular URB. So a Spacer Guild Cooperation resource might allow construction of a Heighliner port building, which gives +2 trade routes and +40% trade route income.

These could even double up, so thinking machines could be required for both the CyMek unit AND a Supercomputer UB that increased beaker output.

yeah you got my drift.

ok for now ive made that the missionaria protactiva allows a world wonder - 1 per civ - 5 world wide - it gives a new unique promotion -
the name: temple of the reverend mother -
the promotion - bless of the mother - gives 45 enemy heal rate + 1 vision to all units built in city.

civs that will trade with bene gesserit this resource - will get access to this building - 5 world wide - cause the trade with civs can change over time .

this building is on early tech - around mid game it will be obseleted - and ill made a second same function building that gives the same effect (perhaps a bit bit stronger) - why -
so tradeing with the bene gesserit this resource wont be needed just once - but later on it will allow more building types - so the resource wont loose its effect over time,
how about 3 buildings allowed through time by this imported?

its goes well with what you suggested ahiram - 3 levels of units through the tech tree - so the imported bonus - wont loose its effect after the first unit gets obseleted huh?

im starting to really like what we are making here - it will create a highly dynamic trade system and diversity between civs right?


***
in order to give more meaning to the imported goods - either from the ub's or either from the contract later we will use,

we should give them more powerfull meaning - besides their buildings and units:
how about we lower the output of health and happiness from bonuses found on the maps and we increase the output of the imported ones?

ok for now ive made that the missionaria protactiva allows a world wonder - 1 per civ - 5 world wide - it gives a new unique promotion -
the name: temple of the reverend mother -
the promotion - bless of the mother - gives 45 enemy heal rate + 1 vision to all units built in city.

Missionaria Protectiva seems weird as a strategic resource - we already have this as a civic.

Healing rate and vision seem wrong too for the bene gesserit. These aren't clerics from a fantasy mod.

How about something that mimics how many of the top influential people get a BG Truthsayer to advise them?
The Emperor's wife is a Truthsayer. I don't recall if Jessica is a Truthsayer, or Irulan, but I don't think so.

We could also change the city specialist from Truthsayer to Priest or Reverend Mother. It feels wrong for city specialists from any faction to be truthsayers (in the same way as it feels weird to me for artists to be gholas).

And then we could make the Reverend Mother resource Truthsayer Advisors. This could be a strategic resource required for the Reverend Mother unit (rather than the little maker resource, which feels weird to be a mpa resource and could be eliminated), and could be a requirement for a Wonder (or wonders) that boosted the yield of priests in all cities (+culture gold from priest specialists) and provided free priests.

We could also take Gholas out of city specialists and make them a unique BTl strategic resource.

oh finally someone responds on the city specialists...:)

i agree with what you suggest!

so - what should i replace the missionaria with?

and what should the promotion do then?

ill just built the first system structure, we can change it later from the ideas that will come up, like you just made.

I think it is right for little maker to be the resource that allows Reverend Mothers, although we could be more explicit and call it Water of Life perhaps. The point is that they are dependent on a resource which can only be found on Arrakis.

Truthsayers are very senior and highly qualified Reverend Mothers so it would be weird for them to be the prereq for more basic Reverend Mothers. I'm against that idea.

I do agree that Missionaria Protectiva as a resource is odd as is Truthsayers as specialists.

I don't mind the Truthsayer Advisors as a UR, but I wouldn't have it be a strategic one. A couple of other ideas I had for Bene Gesserit URs are:
Prana-Bindu Training (I think we have a civic but that should be rebranded anyway),
Indulgences,
Favor of the Sisterhood

I think Priest probably works best for the city specialist.

For Gholas, I like the cloning of units more than making them a resource.

We could keep the Reverend mother unit as requiring Water of Life (or Little Maker) resource, but IIRC this really comes from any new spice blow - it doesn't make sense that you have to control a particular rare desert resource in order to build the BG faction's UU.
But in any case we could keep it outside the faction-specific resource mechanic - no faction other than BGs should get Reverend Mothers as in-game units.

The purpose to making Gholas a strategic resource is to make them a requirement for ghola units, but again to mimic the fact that the BTl will gladly sell gholas to other factions.

How about we make the priest city specialist back to a Priest, and its great version a Great Prophet, as vanilla.
And change the ghola city specialist to Noble, and the great version to Great Lord.

This leaves us free to use Truthsayers and Gholas in more canon ways; you only get gholas if you're on good terms with the BTl, and you only get Truthsayers if you're on good terms with the BGs.

So a BTl unique resource could be Gholas, or Axolotl Tanks, instead of or in addition to Sligs.

A BG unique resource could be Truthsayer Advisors. This could allow a Favor of the Sisterhood building that gives +1 happy and +20% culture, and could be required for a Missionaria Protectiva great wonder that gives a bonus to all priest and great priest specialists.

The Water of Life comes from drowning young sandworms (little makers) in water. The drowned little makers then produce the poisonous liquid. So you do need to get your hands on some young sandworms to get it, but perhaps this is too detailed and RMs shouldn't have a strategic resource prereq. They could just have a UB prereq instead.

hey guys , ive created a very diverse factions using the imported bonuses,
i publishing a part of the readme im making for patch 1.3.9, i would like you opinions on this, since ive already done the noted stuff here, i bet you guys will be pleased with most of the stuff, cause now each civ have different things.

also - i think the imported bonuses should have a higher bonus of health/happy/gold value - to make the importAnt to trade after its unique building/unit have been obsolete, perhaps another way is to add a second building and unit type or promotion that will give each of these imported stuff later in the tech tree, so it will always be important to trade res with the various factions.

so here it is:

-unique bonus system:
sapho - left as the only imported bonus that every civ
can get.


*bene gesserit:
can import missionera pro' - allows world wonder - 5
per civ - gives special promossion now.
*tleilax:
slig farm - gives some good economy bonuses - 4 per
world - 1 per civ

*both fremen produce stillsuits - each civ can trade
only one with another civ. also:
naib chosen now uu for chouhada and fedaykin uu for
sihaya - the rest are shared uus - now they each have
uniqueness. tradeing civs will gain access to srill
suit fighter - less powered unit of fedaykin. BOTH
FEDAYKIN AND NAIB ARE Same UNIT TYPE - and they are
invisible!

*ecaz - imports semuta - i thought of making them the
sole sapho importers - but i decided to leave it for
all civs as a world wonder.so emuta allows building
that gives special promotion .if semuta traded 4 civs
can build this world wonder.

*fenring - imports kinjal - allows uu of ginaz
swordmaster - will allow other civs thats trade with
them - unit - ginaz warriors - less powered unit then
ginaz swordmaster.
*harkkonen - they are the only civ that isnt importing
something - but they get a 4th powefull unit - volcan
trooper (4th uu)

*ix - imports thinking machines - get a ixian waepon
platform uu - other units - gets ixian drone - less
powered unit .edit: thinking machines allows acces to
other units - to 3 more unit types - cymek and war
machine. all of ix uus need thinking machins.

*atreidis - imports caladan wine - allows world
building - 3 per game 1 per civ - boost up 1 population
for all cities + some growth bonus

*ordos - gets sabatur - from imported opafire - other
civs will get silent infiltrator - less powered unit of
sabatur - if they tarde opafire with ordos.

*spacing guild - does not import stuff - but other
uniqueness - all of their uus - wil only cost money,
they will have 4-5 uus, and their corporation will be
allowed to spread to other cities - so they can earn
more moeny.

*corinno - imports sardukar coopr' - allows elite
sardukar - other units - gets less powered unit - for
now named sardukar
trust me guys,
agter i finish,

they factions wil lbe very different form one another, i think so far it looks really cool and interesting.


edit: updated the list above

allows world wonder - 5
per civ

On reflection, there is a bit of a problem with world wonders requiring a tradable resource; its too easy to hold the resource until you build the wonder, and then trade it afterwords when the resource has little value.

And I still think "Missionaria Protectiva" seems very strange as a trade good, I like Truthsayer Advisers much better.

your kinda right,
but the thing is,

its a world wonder - meaning how much of these buildings will be allowed to build in the world at the same time - so my idea - that the bene gesserint special building can be built by the bene gesserit - and it will grat the units of the city where it built a special promotion,

and if someone else trades missionaria pro' (i know its temporal name) can also build this wonder and gain this promotion.

the bene gesserit gets 3 missionarai - so why 5 world wonder? cause what if thetrade changes through time - so theres 2 more civs that can have this wonder.

when theres 5 on the world - if a si factions trades the missionaraia for the first time - it wont be able to get that building..cause 5 other civs already built it ...

it a great mechanism.

its a world wonder - meaning how much of these buildings will be allowed to build in the world at the same time

Aren't all World Wonders limited to 1 in the whole world?
Maybe this should just be a National Wonder (1 per civ) as opposed to a World Wonder; that way any civ who trades for the resource can build the wonder.

well,

when you set the world wonder in the xml - you can choose how much buildings of that type will be availble for the game - 2 means that when you play - there can be 2 of this world wonder - 2 for the same civ, or 1 for one civ and one for a second civ.

if you add the national wonder - you limit one world wonder per civ.

dont worry its just xml , it works just like you said:
Maybe this should just be a National Wonder (1 per civ) as opposed to a World Wonder; that way any civ who trades for the resource can build the wonder.

If you allow say x copies to be built by any players, then you're back to the original tradeable good problem; one faction can build all x copies before agreeing to trade the good.

So it really needs to have a cap of 1 per faction, that way trading the good to someone else will always allow them to build the wonder.

thats how it works buddy,
each faction can build just one of this wonder,
each nation have a supply of minimum 2-3 resource - so they will always keep 1 for them selfs - so - no problem and no holding any resource.

Sapho and Semuta should only be available to Ecaz. This is meant to be one of their faction strengths.

Not sure about the Ordos and Atreides ideas, but perhaps with some renaming they could work.

Wonders-wise you can make the power of the building dependent on the number of the UR that you control using the Bonus modifiers.

Anyway, good work keldath. We can wait until we see what you have implemented in its entirety and then refine the ideas in a future patch.

hey,

ok,
i was thinking to leave the sapho to be availble for everyone, cause i liked it that you made sapho as a preqeq for a mentat unit,
and i dont want to limit mentat production only to ecaz and those who trade with them,
so theres two options - leave sapho for everyone - perhaps giving ecaz some bonus from sapho - or even regardless of the sapho suppliers, giving them the ability to have sapho always.
or limiting sapho to ecaz, and making mentats without the preqeq of sapho...

anyway ill leave it for now as i did, unless you suggest otherwise, and in time we can refine this.


yes wonders can be giben some more power ups using num of ur's.

atreides - well - i wasnt happy with it either, but if you have another suggestion - im all ears.
i was thinking maybe changing the caladaninan wine to some kind of another res, something that will be required to build orni thopters - using the great model you did.

ordos, well, that one, i wasn't sure - also - open for suggestions.

going to work now,
i might be able to finish the patch today.

I'd suggest that you have too many of these trade goods as strategic resources. Take some of them back to just basic luxuries that don't allow any particular building or unit; caladaanian wine or pundi rice should just be happiness or health resources, opafire can just be a happiness resource, semuta can just be a happiness resource, etc.

And again I see no particular reason why you're setting the number of UUs per faction equal (there are other things to consider that change faction balance, like a diplomacy bonus for atreides, and all kinds of UBs and other mechanics like slaves) and why you're not allowing a trade good for the Harkonnen. And you need something for the guild; they're the trade civ, they should be getting *more* stuff from trade techs and buildings and mechanics, not less.

hey ,
i dont agree with you,

we have just 12 factions.

with my new unique and resource system, ive made each of them - different from the other.

no all of them have 3 uus, some have 4, some have shared, some uus cost only money, all sorts.

i wnna use the resources imported by civs to give more then just happyness or whatever, now they have a real meaning - if someone trades a resources he not only gains a resource - but gets access to something unique - building or a unit.

with my and deliverator system - factions are much much more distinced from one another,
and yes, i prefer to have 3 uus or more to each civ - cause again, it only adds more diverse.
i do not want to change this one.

:)
trust me youll like what ive done.

I'm sure it will work fine and I look forward to trying it; my one hope is that you continue to differentiate factions using other mechanics, such as a diplomacy bonus for Atreides and special spy missions for Ordos, Fenring and BGs, and make the Hark slave mechanic more useful (sacrifice slaves in cities for production boosts). I think Fremen will need a ton more UUs; they should be a much more infantry-oriented faction with worms; good naval power but weak on land because they should lack the artillery, suspensor units or mechanized vehicles available to other factions. There need to be more mechanics than just a few UUs and UBs to actually make the factions play differently.

yeah i agree, units and buildings isnt the only way,

the more stuff we make each faction different and unique, the game will be more fun!

:)

Remember that another great means of differentiation is to have some techs only available to particular factions.

yeah!

i thought of these a long time ago - theres an sdk code for that - i didnt get to it though - i could make use of it later on!

Based on 1.4, here is my revised plan for unique resources. Note Ecaz is removed in 1.4.

There are three UR which are associated with particular civs:
Caladanian Wine - Atreides - +2 happiness
Thinking Machines - Ix - allows building 4 special units
Sardaukar Cooperation - Corrino - allows building Sardaukar

There are three which are unaligned and only give benefits:
Slig - +2 health
Opafire - +2 happiness
Semuta - +2 happiness

There are two which are unaligned and allow building special units:
Kindjal - Ginaz Warrior
Sapho Juice - Mentat

The proposal is that when you get Offworld Trade, you should get your civ's UR. For Atreides, Ix and Corrino, this is clear. For the others, should they get a pick? A pick would be of any unaligned, plus any of the aligned ones whose civ is not in this game, minus any which were already picked by other players. For Atreides, a pick may be better than Wines.

Perhaps Spacer Guild should get to pick two?

Also, my original thought was that when you build a Space Port, you can then build a Contract "building". Once that is built, you get a pick of any available UR.

In 1.4, all the UR buildings are buildable, and there is no restriction. So I need to do something. Let me know what you think.

In the Westwood games, the Fremen are special elite Atreides units. Here's an idea along similar lines.

Fremen should have a UR that represents their trust and cooperation, that is the equivalent of Sardaukar Cooperation and allows building of the Fedaykin URU. This UR could be named Water Debt.

You can then set up the following via diplomatic bonuses and penalties, or by restricting choices in some other way.

Fremen like Atreides, hates Harkonnens.
Atreides have an advantage in obtaining Water Debt UR -> Fedaykin URU.

Corrino like Harkonnen, hates Atreides*
Harkonnens have an advantage in obtaining Sardaukar Coop UR -> Sardaukar URU.

* Corrino wants to manipulate the Harkonnens to eliminate the Atreides threat.

There is a nice symmetry to this which I like.

I would also rename Kindjal to Ginaz Swordsmanship or something like that.

I think giving Fremen stuff to Atreides doesn't make sense as long as Fremen are in the game (and they'd *better* be in the game). Want to be on good terms with the Fremen? Thats what the diplomacy engine is for.

Fremen should have a UR that represents their trust and cooperation, that is the equivalent of Sardaukar Cooperation and allows building of the Fedaykin URU. This UR could be named Water Debt.

I like this part, it is symmetrical. In particular the Fremen Infantry unit (which I will probably rename Worm Rider) is pretty useful; so I will make this one a public (non-UU) unit that requires Water Debt.

I agree with Ahriman that the diplo bonuses could come from the game engine. There is a little bit of diplomatic forcing with the favorite/hated civic of arrakis paradise. If we need something to encourage more factionalism, we can consider this separately.

More to the point, things like trade goods should depend on good diplomatic relations with the appropriate faction. If you're Atreides and want access to Fremen stuff, you should have to have a good diplomatic relationship with the Fremen such that they are willing to trade their resources with you through the diplomacy engine (assuming they're in the game). If you want Sardaukar cooperation, you should have to have a good diplomatic relationship with the Imperial faction, such that they are willing to trade their strategic resource with you.
You shouldn't be able to just get these special things by spending some hammers on a building.
I'd also tend to make the units granted by these strategic trade resources more powerful than other units of similar tech level, but with a national limit requirement. So maybe you can only build 6 Sardaukar or Fedaykin units, but they totally pwn all other infantry in their unit class.

I've no problem with intrinsic diplomatic bonuses/penalties between some factions. You could give Atreides +4 to Fremen, +2 to everyone else except Tleilexu (no bonus) and Harkonnen (-4 penalty). Good relations with the Lansraad is an Atreides faction feature.

I like Water Debt more than Stillsuits.

One key idea from earlier in the thread which I failed to repeat recently is that each contract is like a world wonder. You get three units of the resource, one to use and two for trade. So your two friends can build the units also.

The Ixian units, Ginaz Swordsman, and Fremen Infantry which rely on the UR's are definitely stronger, but I did not intend for them to be any stronger than a normal UU. That is, a UU is typically a little stronger in one area, and I was aiming for something similar with the units enabled by UR. But I was not planning to have any unit count limit.

I suppose a limited number, of much stronger units, would also be a workable solution.

that is, a UU is typically a little stronger in one area, and I was aiming for something similar with the units enabled by UR

I suppose a limited number, of much stronger units, would also be a workable solution.

Either of these would be fine.

I would like to see Water Debt allow the Fedaykin too. This is mostly a theme thing - now that Paul is Atreides I'd still like to be able to have them fight under him.

I think there is nothing wrong turning UUs into URUs, the owning civ will still be able to build them and it makes things more interesting.

Perhaps have a World Unit cap of 20 or so on both Fedaykin and Sardaukar, although I'm not sure it's necessary.

Setting diplomatic standings and leaders' personalities (as has recently been done on Planetfall) is worth a new thread at some point.

I'd go for national limit rather than worldcap; insanely frustrating if you can't build your unit because your allies (or former allies) are hogging the supply.

I'd also make sure that there are multiple tiers (2 at least) of these URUs; a mid-game Sardaukar and a late-game Sardaukar for eg.

There are some hard-coded diplomatic bonuses in FFH too; Falamar likes all women, and Os-Gabella hates all men. And there is a spirit spell Trust that gives a one-off bonus to everyone.

OK, I have implemented it. Please see the 1.4.1 patch (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8330822&postcount=47). What I implemented is a little different from the original design, as usual. The full details are in the dune wars concept tab of the civilopedia under "offworld trade". Basically you get one contract with every Trade Port building you build, so you can only get one per city. The picklist contains your unique resource if any, plus any unique resources of players who are not in the game, plus all the unassigned resources, minus any resource which has already been picked. So they are kind of like world wonders.

Hey! :)

I just want to say that I am back home. I didn't have read all the posts, that will need some days. As promised next i will try doing that offworld screen...

hey buddy! welcome back!

a lot have changed in the version, looking forward to see your great skills back in action !

Hey! :)

I just want to say that I am back home. I didn't have read all the posts, that will need some days. As promised next i will try doing that offworld screen...

Welcome back. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :)

say guys,

i have a q,

i never noticed up till now,

why did you guys removed plasteel and plaz as resources?
why aren't they fit?

hey buddy! welcome back!

a lot have changed in the version, looking forward to see your great skills back in action !

Welcome back. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :)

Thx. I will make a simple prototype. When it works fine we can discuss the details. ;)

why did you guys removed plasteel and plaz as resources?

I explained in the bonus thread a little bit. Basically, in Civ 4, resources are generally raw materials rather than finished products. Both plasteel and plaz are made from something else - you don't mine for them. Stravidium is one of the raw materials used to make plasteel and that's still in. Plaz was hard to get excited about as a strategic resource. What can you do with toughened glass apart from make windshields?

ahh i see, thanks for the info buddy.

As promised next i will try doing that offworld screen...

I know you all are busy with redoing the tech tree, but the offworld screen is now in a condition where we can talk about concretising the rules.

We have to decide:
KO1 - who will have access to the screen
What is about the Fremen? Arrakis is their homeworld. They hate doing business with the guild. If we exclude them we have to give them another advantage.
Should the guild itself get a discount? Personally, I'm supporting the idea making the guild non playable.

KO2 - which units should be offered
Currently I have these rules implemented:

- unit has to be in same era as player
- unit is no animal (no, you can't buy a sandstorm)
- unit combat type is not -1 (None)

KO3 - how much they will cost
This is a good question. It defines the impact the homeworld screen will have on gameplay. Should units be bought only in emergency situations or is it a regular alternative for training them? The current price is calculated by CvUnitInfo.getProductionCost(), which is maybe too cheap.

KO4 - how many units you can buy each turn
Imho no limit. A discount for buying multiple units would be nice.

KO5 - where they will be delivered (fixed place or selectable)
Currently they are spawned in your capital city. But I would prefer having a more flexible solution allowing you to choose the city. Maybe we can make a national wonder (space port).

KO6 - how long delivery will take
Don't know... 1-2 turns? Maybe we can have an express delivery option (costing additional money)?

KO7 - additional features
We definitely are needing more features. Right now the home world screen is just a gloryfied hurry button, think about it. There was some talk about special services by the guild (satellite maps). Maybe we can manage offworld resources via offworld screen.

KO8 - background art
This is for flavor. We have to decide if we really want to make a background for each civ. Another possibility would be using some space guild related background. I will need help with these graphics. :)

Tell me what you think.

Here is a link for the current (very early) version of the homeworld screen. It is 100% working (interface + ai) but not balanced/polished. You'll need 1.4.4 or 1.4.4.1 to make it play: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1jymiidenym.

Some good design questions!
I'm a little unsure about the value of this mechanic, partly because of the issues that arise here, and because I'm very unsure about the ability of the AI to use the mechanic intelligently.

K01
I would let Fremen hire units though the screen.
They're not getting them from the guild, but they're coming in from outlying Sietches via worm (or the deep south, on the Arrakis mapscript).

I understand the instinct to make the Guild non-playable. They *are* scrupulously neutral in this era.... but its nice to have a trade civ. They're clearly distinct, and fun to play, and you can set up mechanics that encourage pacifist neutrality.

K02
I think the mechanic might be a bit boring if you're just getting regular/normal units, though realistically this might have to be how it is implemented. But it would be cool if these units were special somehow.

Some possible ideas to throw out there:
a) This importation mechanic is the *only* way to get most mechanized/aerial units, or to get special faction UUs or URUs, like Ixian Meks, Sardaukar, Worm riders, etc. You simply don't have the means of producing these things locally; they take manufacturing equipment or manpower or whatever that don't exist on Arrakis. OR
b) The units you get from the mechanic start with a Homeworld or Offworld promotion, that gives them an intrinsic bonus - strength first strikes, whatever. These guys are the elite that you are bringing in, not just local yokels.


K03/04
I understand the realism argument for wanting to discount large purchases, but is that really the best for gameplay? I'd probably put it at the opposite; cap the number of units you can import at 1-2 per turn. No fun if you (or the AI) can just instantly spawn a massive army in one of your cities right next to the enemy and go on the warpath before they can respond.

As for cost, that really depends on the purpose for this. Is this designed to be a fun way to turn hold into hammers? Is it supposed to give you special elite units, or units not normally available? Is it supposed to be an expensive way of getting the units you want when you want them? ("the enemy is incoming with thopters, quick, better buy me some missile launchers).

K05
Is it possible to have them delivered to any of your cities? What I would have in mind would be something like the old FFH (or Fall Further?) mercenary/slave hire. Any of your units in a city (or in a city with a landing stage, or spaceport) get a "spell" ability that you can press that opens the homeworld screen. You then select your purchase, and it shows up in that city.

It would be hard to get the AI to do this well.... so maybe just dumping them in the capital is the best.

K06
I'd have no real problem with them showing up immediately, as long as they couldn't move that turn. Otherwise, next turn would be fine. You want to make the purchase decision and the arrival of units still obviously tied together.

Good stuff Koma, I'll check it out.

KO1 - I quite like the idea of the Fremen having Southern/Outlying sietches, but it might be strange for them to pay gold for them, particular if that gold goes to the Guild. Are there other ways or yields that could be used to produce units via this mechanism that would be more appropriate for them? Alternatively, we can come up with an alternate power - some kind of gathering of the tribes type ability.

I understand the instinct to make the Guild non-playable. They *are* scrupulously neutral in this era.... but its nice to have a trade civ. They're clearly distinct, and fun to play, and you can set up mechanics that encourage pacifist neutrality.

I'd prefer getting rid of them as a playable civ too. Casting them as traders is not a perfect fit, their income comes from a monopoly on shipping which is not quite the same as haggling over commodities which is what 'trader' makes me think of.

The background to this idea is the vague post-apocalyptic backstory and at some point making connection with the outside universe and your homeworld. This could only happen via the Guild, so the Guild as a playable civ in the game doesn't make a lot of sense pre-offworld contact.

We don't have a compelling or interesting unique mechanic for the Guild yet, and giving them military advantages, powerful military UUs just gets less and less thematic in my opinion.

The way the Guild was modelled in the board game is described here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8276465&postcount=8). If we really want to keep the Guild as a civ, then I'd suggest that all the homeworld purchase gold goes to them as their main revenue. To compensate, they do not get any revenue from spice since I all goes to the Navigators to keep the space-folding going.

If you want a trading faction to replace the Guild, then we can re-add Ecaz as the traders - they are pretty much a blank canvas, apart from being a source of various narcotics. Alternatively, make the Smugglers a civ with Esmar Tuek as a leader, then replace the Barbarians with non-aligned Fremen/Waterstealers.

KO2
UUs/URUs only/mostly being available through this mechanic makes sense. Sardaukar or Atreides pilots trained offworld should be stronger. You could make it so that UUs/URUs produced on Arrakis have a penalising promotion - perhaps until they have accumulated enough experience.

KO3/O4

As for cost, that really depends on the purpose for this. Is this designed to be a fun way to turn hold into hammers? Is it supposed to give you special elite units, or units not normally available? Is it supposed to be an expensive way of getting the units you want when you want them? ("the enemy is incoming with thopters, quick, better buy me some missile launchers).

I think it should be all these three things and hopefully more.

K05
Picking would be good, but teaching the AI might be hard.

KO6
Perhaps you could separate training units from shipping them to Arrakis. I'm thinking Colonization again - we could have the equivalent of the quayside with units being added to it ready for transportation. Transporting units en masse can be more cost effective (group discount), but you have to pay to train/produce units in the first place. If want stuff quickly you'd pay much more because you pay for faster training and get less group discount for transportation. Units can be added to the quayside very gradually over time perhaps. Transportation should take until the next turn maximum - travelling without moving, etc. I think it should be made pretty hard but not impossible to build up a massive army and then deploy them in numbers. That way if you can turtle with a small military for long enough, you can deploy a large army of reinforcements.

KO7 - Incorporating the offworld resources in some way would be good. We could even use this to replace the current Contract building implementation. We'd need to add more offworld goods to expand the set and make the effects more interesting.

KO8 - I'm happy to help create backgrounds. I think each civ should have a different one. We should probably test whether mechanic is working/interesting before putting into too much effort to the art though.

KO1.
I think you could just rationalize the gold as being equipment or supplies or used to buy water to pay for bringing units in. Easiler than devising another mechanic.
I don't like the idea of the gold going to the guild either, or of this being their primary income source. Its a cool mechanic in the boardgame, where there is a fixed gameboard and a fixed number of players and a fixed game length, but I think would work really badly in randomized civ scenarios. What if there are only 3-4 players? The guild has no income. What if there are 12 players? The guild has massive income. The mechanic surely shouldn't operate until the Space Guild tech, so the Guild would have no income in the early-midgame?

KO2
You could make it so that UUs/URUs produced on Arrakis have a penalising promotion - perhaps until they have accumulated enough experience.

I think it would be easier to easier to give offworld units a bonus than onworld units a penalty. And you could make it so some of those offworld units were available ONLY through the Guild.
Or add a new unit 'House Guardsmen' to all factions that is available only through this mechanic, with a national limit.

KO1
Outlying Sietches is a solution I can accept. About Gold. I think that was already discussed before but can't we rename gold to spice? It's good for flavor and would make spice in dw mod more important.

A space guild getting income from homeworld screen will be hard to balance. What happen if there are only 2 houses left, you and the guild. Would you buy units? :)

KO2
In this category we can be creative. We can add promotions, xp's, hitpoints, random stuff, whatever.

Here is another mercenary mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8317340) I can use for inspiration.

KO3/4
Ok, I will try cheap units and few limits first and if that has too much impact on gameplay we can increase costs and thighten limits.

KO5
Yes, it's possible to make the city directly selectable. Of course the AI will be hard to teach. But I think it's enough to send defending units to cities in most (potential) danger and all other units to the capital city.

KO6/7
Units showing up immidiately are much easier to code.
A unit pool would be nice. We can add random units and heroes. What is about being able to purchase resources or water from your homeworld?

KO8
Great, Deliverator. True, we shoud test it before spending too much time. Maybe we can just make a placeholder background, something that would work for all houses.

Thanks for the feedback.

can't we rename gold to spice?

But most tiles don't provide spice. Should you really be getting spice from a cottage tile, or a windtrap tile, or a well?

K05

But I think it's enough to send defending units to cities in most (potential) danger and all other units to the capital city.

Agreed.

Units showing up immidiately are much easier to code.
A unit pool would be nice. We can add random units and heroes. What is about being able to purchase resources or water from your homeworld?


I don't see any particular reason to have delayed units; if its easier to code immediate, then do it that way. Can you make them show up as having already moved though?

The unit pool idea is also interesting. So you can pay a little gold to buy units from your homeworld, but only from the units that have shown up in your pool.

And the units that show up there are indenpendent of what is happening on Arrakis.

This sounds like a nice anti-slippery slope mechanic; no matter how weak your faction's foothold is on Arrakis, you have basically the same imported unit pool as everyone else, available for just the gold to import it. So small factions can hang on by cheaply importing a ton of units, relative to the size of their civ.

Actually I like this a LOT. Its a great balancing mechanic; you don't have to worry about the units being cheap, because there are only a limited number of them for sale.
We could hard-code separate spawn lists (either random or deterministic) for each faction.
So the units that show up in your pool are independent of your techlevel too, and tie them to the turn counter, or to the tech age of the most advanced faction, or of your own faction.

For example, we could have:

Fremen:
First 100 turns
Desert raider shows up 5% chance per turn.
Bladesman shows up 5% per turn.

Turns 101-200
Elite bladesman shows up 8% per turn.
Master guardsman shows up 8% per turn.

Turns 201-300
Worm rider shows up 10% per turn.

Turns 300+
Fedaykin shows up 10% per turn.

Corrino:
First 100 turns
Imperial militia shows up 15% chance per turn.

Turns 101-200
Elite bladesman shows up 8% per turn.
Master guardsman shows up 8% per turn.

Turns 201-300
Sardaukar shows up 10% per turn.

Turns 300+
Sardaukar shows up 20% per turn.

Atreides:
First 100 turns
Infantry shows up 5% chance per turn.
Light thopter shows up 5% per turn.

Turns 101-200
Elite bladesman shows up 8% per turn.
Light hornet shows up 8% per turn.

Turns 201-300
Falcon thopter shows up 10% per turn.
Assault hornet shows up 10% per turn.

Turns 300+
Sonic tank shows up 5% per turn.

etc.

We could tweak the spawn rates so they're roughly balanced across factions.

And there could be an expensive national wonder that increases the spawn chances by 50%.

Even if the guild was left in-game, they could just have free unit import costs, but still be limited by the spawn rate of their pool.

How about providing this screen *only* for the guild?

I agree that being able to produce the units in any city with a spaceport seems good. I like the idea of an action button on the city with the building. On the other hand, the spaceport gives airlift, so it is "only some micromanagement" to get the units to the desired city after the fact. How does your new AI decide whether to purchase units? After that, it may be possible to add some logic which picks the most relevant city with a spaceport, and put the unit there.

I agree that being able to buy standard units is not too exciting, unless it is the primary way the spacers get units. I think there should be a category of units like "elite" or "house guard" units. These could be UU with a national limit. But we can control the availability of the units anyway, so we may not need to make them UU. They could also just start with 1-2 promotions.

There is a mechanic in some other games I like, where slightly more powerful and unique mercenaries are available, and you *bid* against the other players. That is, when a mercenary is available, you can bid for the contract that turn. Whichever player bids the highest wins that unit for a period of time before the contract is up. It is not an "auction" since there is only one round of bidding. I think that is fun, but nothing in the Dune universe really suggests this. Maybe we can consider this under the category of heroes, post-1.5.

EDIT: I see this is very similar to TheLopez's mercenary mod which koma has just posted a link to. It may be worthwhile to try that out on its own and see how it works.

I think this is probably an awful lot of work for a mechanic for only 1 faction.
I'd prefer to have the Guild player be able to import for free (using the limited pool idea) while the other factions must pay gold.

Yes, the House Guard I think works well - I was thinking sort of Huskarls type thing from Saxon England. It could be a UU for each faction, or could just be a single unit available to everyone, with a National limit.

I don't really like the bidding idea. That can work great in games with multiple human players, but its unlikely to work well when you're playing primarily against the AI. Plus these aren't really mercenaries you're importing; you're paying the Guild to import your own troops.

Had a quick play. It was fun spending my first goody hut gold on some suspensor gunships! And the Guild chat-back at the bottom of the screen made me smile too. :)

I did a very quick and crude mockup of art ideas for the homeworld screen (attached). I like the idea of having both a view of each homeworld from space as well as a landscape view in there. The layout very much depends on what additional stuff goes in it. Art-wise, this is great opportunity to have something that adds to the atmosphere and immersiveness of the game.

I've also taken a few stills from the film and TV that could be used to make better placeholder art.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2221nrncdvg

What about being able to purchase resources or water from your homeworld?

I like the concept or these two. How would they both work?

We could effectively move the contract mechanic for offworld goods into the screen and make the contracts cost a certain amount of gold each turn. Then the more powerful offworld resources could have a higher price perhaps.

I think the offworld resources work pretty well now, and I think inter-stellar transport of water is just not going to be even close to economic. They certainly don't do it in the books.

Ecaz for Spacers?

Now that we have something working for this purchase screen, maybe it makes sense to remove the Spacing Guild as a civilization. How about we substitute Ecaz for Spacing Guild. We already have the flag, leaderhead, etc from Deliverator's previous work. Then we can use the leaderhead art for the spacer guy, as the button for invoking the build screen. This way, we can use the concept of money you pay to the guild, and not worry about the guild civilization actually spending the money.

Anything we were going to do in terms of economics and trade for the spacer guild UU/UB or mechanics, we can do for Ecaz instead. Deliverator had originally proposed that some of the offworld trade items should be limited to Ecaz only, which I can now easily implement.

If there are no objections, I will make this change in 1.4.7.

What can you buy?

One thing I think we should avoid is the need to "poll" the mercenaries screen. If units show up according to some event script, or rare/unique mercenaries show up occasionally, then the player must bring up the mercenaries screen each turn to see what is there. This is not efficient. So I don't think we should try for unique mercenaries or units arriving by a timed script.

I think "house guard" or "elite" units make sense; we could give them 1-2 promotions over base units. If they are expensive, there is no need to make a separate limit; money is its own limit. Perhaps each purchaseable unit could have two varieties, normal and elite, where elite is 1.5x the cost or similar.

The barbarian civ has some rules for what units it can build. Some units can be straight out disabled in civilizationinfos.xml; but among the available units, the game decides when the higher tech barbarian units can be introduced. I think the rule has something to do with, awarding techs to the barbarian player once 1/2 the players in the game have it. So if you are lagging in tech, you could face barbarian units which are more advanced than your own units.

Can we use the exact same rule for availability of mercenary units? This way, a player who is behind, but still somehow has a lot of money, could buy units which he could not build.

Where the units appear

I like the idea of a button on each city with a spaceport. The AI could randomly pick, or randomly with a 50% weight to the capitol. It would be nice to pick cities under attack, or cities from which an attack is about to be launched. Perhaps this could be accomplished by giving a higher weight to cities which already have more units. This may be a city under attack or a city which is building a stack of doom already.

One complexity which may be interesting later, is what happens when a city under siege buys a replacement. The Guild ship lands at the spaceport in the target city. In traditional warfare today, cargo airplanes coming into a city being attacked would be at high risk from SAMs, so probably you would not try to reinforce a city this way.

What happens if the besieging player has antiaircraft troops? Should he have the opportunity to fire on the Guild ship? This may have serious penalties, as the Guild embargoes you; you might lose the ability to buy new units or to receive any offworld resources. But still, if you are not dependent on any of those things, you might not care; you might go ahead and shoot down the guild ship.

In one tactical modern wargame I play, cargo planes can move units, but the plane and the unit will both be lost if there is an unexpected SAM site. The plane physically moves across the board to show this. If we wanted, perhaps we could make a unit for "Guild Transport" which would appear *next to* the city receiving the reinforcement. That way a besieging player might choose to attack.

This may add some "fun" but also a lot of complexity, so we can leave it for later / never.

But most tiles don't provide spice. Should you really be getting spice from a cottage tile, or a windtrap tile, or a well?
True, No water and spice in same tile.

How does your new AI decide whether to purchase units?

I am using an already existing method called CvPlayerAI::AI_unitValue. Everything with a value > 0 is getting purchased. :) Have a look inside sdkDbg.log to see which units are bought by ai.

Bidding could be interesting for hero units in a global pool. It should work like ebay (several turns).

! And the Guild chat-back at the bottom of the screen made me smile too.
Hehe, but don't trust him too much... I first had only that 3 lists but got bored and added a guild ambassador. For the background I would prefer a more solid/consistent image, the Caladan background is imho too much looking like a post card. :p

What about being able to purchase resources or water from your homeworld?
Maybe Ahriman is right. I will focus on mercenary system first.

I am using an already existing method called CvPlayerAI::AI_unitValue. Everything with a value > 0 is getting purchased. :) Have a look inside sdkDbg.log to see which units are bought by ai.

My question is how does the AI decide how much money to spend? Suppose it has 100 gold, its maintenance is 20/turn, and there is a cool unit available for 90 gold.

If units show up according to some event script, or rare/unique mercenaries show up occasionally, then the player must bring up the mercenaries screen each turn to see what is there.
We can add a message to the main log.

My question is how does the AI decide how much money to spend? Suppose it has 100 gold, its maintenance is 20/turn, and there is a cool unit available for 90 gold.

Ah ok. I have included an AI_isFinancialTrouble()/AI_goldTarget() check. The financial check will prevent ai to buy units if nearly bankrupt. AI_goldTarget should allow the ai to accumulate a larger gold sum before buying units. This check is only made once at the beginning of a turn, means ai right now is a shopping addict, spending most of its money for units. :)

I understand the point about not wanting to have the player check the screen every turn, but I still really like the idea of a finite pool of units that the player can recruit. Is there any way we can combine these two?

I have no strong objections to removing the Guild as a playable faction, as long as there is still a Trader faction and as long as the Guild still features prominently in the game.

I'd be fine with no possibility for shooting down Guild frigates.

a) they're probably heavily shielded
b) the consequences in Dune lore of defying the guild are catastrophic; they'd blockage your homeworld and all your trade and choke you to death.

I'd really emphasize thinking of this as a Homeworld Import system rather than a mercenary system. You're not hiring mercenaries; you're paying the Guild to transport your own soldiers to Dune.
This is part of why I like the idea of differentiating unit availability by faction. Atreides can get good air units in, Corrino bring in Sardaukar, Harkonnen bring in artillery and scorpions, Fremen bring melee infantry, etc.

I'd also make sure that they screen isn't available before (at minimum) the offworld trade tech.

It also needs to be generally cheaper to build the thing on Arrakis, so your main bonus is instantly getting what you want-when-you-want-it, unless you go with the limited recruitment pool idea.

I understand the point about not wanting to have the player check the screen every turn, but I still really like the idea of a finite pool of units that the player can recruit. Is there any way we can combine these two?

Do you mean each player has a finite pool, or there is some shared pool? Assuming you mean a pool for each player, why is a *finite* pool important? If the pool refills slowly, I think polling is unavoidable. The problem with a log message is that these are transient, and it may be that there are several units available, and I think that this will generate too many log messages which scroll out of view and then vanish.

I'd really emphasize thinking of this as a Homeworld Import system rather than a mercenary system. You're not hiring mercenaries; you're paying the Guild to transport your own soldiers to Dune.

I agree that is a better name; let's use it.

This is part of why I like the idea of differentiating unit availability by faction. Atreides can get good air units in, Corrino bring in Sardaukar, Harkonnen bring in artillery and scorpions, Fremen bring melee infantry, etc.

Once we define UU, I guess all the UU should be added to the screen for their civ. I think it may get too complicated if there are UU which can *only* be imported. To keep with this and emphasize that Fremen live here, I would say that Fremen UU are not available for purchase. You can't pay the guild to import troops that already live here.

I'd also make sure that they screen isn't available before (at minimum) the offworld trade tech.

Agree, my suggestion is that the button to invoke the screen only shows in cities with spaceports built.

@ Koma, what determines *what kind* of units are available? Is it ever possible to buy a unit you can't build? I think this is good for players who are behind on tech.

EDIT: re-read announcement; any unit of player's era is available. So it is possible to buy a unit slightly ahead of your tech, when you just enter an era.

Feedback on homeworld screen:

DA32. Please filter out other civs' UU from the list. In 1.4.4, Imperial Militia is one UU; you can test with this.
DA33. Should we filter out units which require unique bonuses? For example, Ginaz Warrior requires Kindjal; should this unit appear in the list if you do, or do not have Kindjal?
DA34. Please show the total cost of the selected units, and the amount of gold I have. As I select or unselect units, these should update.
DA35. I do not think there is a need for the "transit" section. The screen will be simpler if clicking "OK" directly makes the units appear and exits the screen.
DA36. Is it possible to draw the units which I cannot afford, in red color and make them unclickable?
DA37. Is it possible to show the icon of the unit?
DA38. After DA37, is it possible to show the hover help of the unit when I mouseover the icon?
DA39. As requested in an earlier post, is it possible to trigger this screen on a button, which appears in cities that have the spaceport building?
DA40. Is it possible to add an "elite" unit selection which has 1-2 promotions, for 1.5x the cost?
DA39.

Do you mean each player has a finite pool, or there is some shared pool? Assuming you mean a pool for each player, why is a *finite* pool important?

Yes, I mean a finite pool for each player. A finite pool is a self-limiting device for preventing the mechanic from becoming too strong. Its much easier to balance a finite pool for each player; an infinite pool is much harder to balance and risks messing up the entire game balance; it can easily allow you to run a big economy with small military, and then instantly create a huge army if you happen to get into a war. It breaks a lot of core civ mechanics, like the need to build your army *before* a war; you have to plan ahead normally, but if you can just buy in an army with whatever units you need, and never need to worry about running out, then you lose a lot of strategic depth.

An infinite pool is also much harder to get the AI to use intelligently. The AI is already designed to build units appropriately with hammers; to get a bigger army if it needs one, and to build units that are counters to yours. If you're fielding a big army of chariots, the AI will build spearmen. If you're attack with a ton of macemen, the AI will build crossbows. If you've got a lot of aircraft, they'll build SAMs. But with an infinite recruitment pool, you risk transfering the primary unit acquisition method out of city construction (which the AI knows how to do fairly well) and into this spaceport mechanic where the AI isn't going to perform well.
You lose a lot of the civ AI.

Its much easier to code the AI with a finite pool, because it doesn't matter if you make the units cheap; you can always

Is "polling" the screen really that big of a problem? With a fixed pool, you can leave the units there (and not pay maintenance) until you want them, then buy whatever there is when you need them. Its not really worth checking for just 1 new unit every turn. Or get rid of the randomless, so 1 unit enters the pool every x turns, and it is a predictable pattern. You can even create a popup event message for the player when this happens, so the player doesn't have to check.

As noted above, a finite pool is also a good anti-slippery slope mechanic. If every faction has access to a fixed number of cheap offworld units, then even a faction that is doing badly can still put up a decent fight for a while because of their cheap imported units.
It also makes the decision whether to vassalize or eliminate an enemy faction more strategic; normally its better to wipe them out (no more cultural/happiness problems), but if they still get their homeworld units, there is a tradeoff and you might want to keep them around.

Finally, I think its just more fun. There are only so many troops that your homeworld can spare to come help you. The mechanic will be boring I think if you can instantly create huge armies in a manner limited only by your gold supply. Building a conquest army should take time.


To keep with this and emphasize that Fremen live here, I would say that Fremen UU are not available for purchase.

As above, I'd just argue that the Fremen are getting units from the deep south via worm, you're just using the same mechanic and load screen for convenience; you could easily make the displayed "Fremen" planet be a worm with a bunch of guys on it instead of Caladaan or Giedi Prime or whatever.

my suggestion is that the button to invoke the screen only shows in cities with spaceports built.

Or landing stage, since spaceports come in the late-midgame in my tech tree design IIRC.

Another way you could implement this to eliminate the "polling" phenom; limit the periods where you can access the screen. So for example have the screen be triggered by an even that comes every X turns; "the Spacing Guild have a heighliner en route from your homeworld to Arrakis; do you wish to pay them to transport some of your forces?" and then trigger the screen.

Part of the inspiration for this concept was Colonization. Here's a screenshot of koma's screen for Colonization.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210953&d=1239889660
The jetty to the right gradually fills up with units, more quickly as you produce the Crosses yield in the new world. You can also pay for particular units that you want. As the game goes on it takes more and more Crosses to earn units on the jetty, so you become more dependent on homegrown units.

I think a unique pool for each player is what I envisioned for this - which is similar to the Colonization jetty although different in several ways. I don't think there is a need to make it finite. You just need to control the rate at which units are added to the pool dependent on how long you are into the game and how many units you have purchased. You effectively need a throttling mechanism so that the pool fills up more slowly if you are buying a lot of units. I prefer throttling to a finite number than just runs out.

I don't think polling the screen to check what units are available is necessarily a big problem if the screen is a big element of the game. That's what you have to do in Colonization and no-one complains about it. Perhaps have a regular pop-up that lists the currently available homeworld units as a prompter/reminder.

I'd really emphasize thinking of this as a Homeworld Import system rather than a mercenary system. You're not hiring mercenaries; you're paying the Guild to transport your own soldiers to Dune.
This is part of why I like the idea of differentiating unit availability by faction. Atreides can get good air units in, Corrino bring in Sardaukar, Harkonnen bring in artillery and scorpions, Fremen bring melee infantry, etc.

I'd also make sure that they screen isn't available before (at minimum) the offworld trade tech.

It also needs to be generally cheaper to build the thing on Arrakis

Agree with all these points.

The primary means of getting units should still be to build them normally.

I'm happy with swapping Ecaz in for the Guild. I think this will set us free to use the Guild as a game concept, which I think will leads us into some more interesting mechanics. We can also have a colour nicer than pale lilac for Ecaz.

If we don't want to give the Fremen the screen, you could give them the auto-spawning mechanic that the Atreides currently have which needs to be toned down as well. I'm not sure this mechanic fits the Atreides too well, whereas the Fremen would have a great free supply of fighters. The Atreides unique abilities can be diplomatic bonuses, a small number of better-than-Sardaukar fighters (Ducal Guard?) and better flying units and pilot promotions.

DA33. Should we filter out units which require unique bonuses? For example, Ginaz Warrior requires Kindjal; should this unit appear in the list if you do, or do not have Kindjal?

I think that there are two cases. One where the required resource is a civ UR like Sardaukar Coop, and one where the resource does not belong to a faction like Kindjal (which I still think should be renamed Ginaz Swordsmanship/Ginaz Sword Training). I think only Corrino should be able to get Sardaukar from their homeworld (first case), but everyone should be able to get Ginaz Swordmasters (second case). This would be achievable if every Civ has a list of units that can appear at their homeworld as Ahriman suggest. These lists would be free from resource requirement restrictions.

How URs/URUs and the Homeworld screen interact does need to be thought through a bit more.

I don't think there is a need to make it finite. You just need to control the rate at which units are added to the pool dependent

Your conception sounds fine, but how is this not finite? If you can only buy units which are in the pool, and units are only added to the pool slowly over time... then by definition there is a limit to the number of units you can buy at any time.
This is basically what I meant by finite; you can only buy what is in your pool.
As opposed to a system where you can buy an infinite number of units of any type at any point in time at a constant marginal cost of X per unit.

If we don't want to give the Fremen the screen
I'm generally in favor letting Fremen use the screen, just give them different graphics. Take out the Guildsman and have desert/worm-rider pictures.
I don't like the free-unit-spawn mechanic. There is no strategy there; no decisions that the player makes to encourage this or anything, its just free units.

like Kindjal (which I still think should be renamed Ginaz Swordsmanship/Ginaz Sword Training)

I agree. IIRC, a Kindjal is just a particular type of blade. It would be like a medieval mod having cutlasses or broadswords or scimitars as a strategic resource.
How about "Swordmaster training"?

Ah, I misunderstood what you meant by 'finite', I was thinking you meant that the total number of units ever available for each civ was fixed.

Ah, I misunderstood what you meant by 'finite', I was thinking you meant that the total number of units ever available for each civ was fixed.

What I meant was just that there was a small/finite number of troops that you could recruit at any given point in time, and that the pool was slowly replenished.

But, technically, doesn't your model also have a finite number of troops that a faction can ever recruit? If there is a limited pool size at any given point in time and a finite replacement rate, and a finite number of turns in the game....
But I think you thought I meant a fixed pool with NO refreshment?

There are two ways I could see the pool work.
a) You can only recruit units from an available unit pool; eg at any point in time this pool might have 3 elite bladesmen, an attack thopter and a guardsman. So those are the only units you can recruit.
Slowly, units are added to the pool, and it keeps increasing over time. So if you never buy anything, the available pool can eventually get huge.
b) You can only recruit units available from the pool, and there is a fixed maximum number of units of each type that the pool can contain, and this can vary by faction.
If you buy units from the pool, the pool gets depleted, and then recovers over time but ONLY up to the maximum pool size.
Eg The Atreides pool could have 3 thopters, 1 assault hornet, 1 interceptor hornet, 1 bladesman and 1 AT infantry.
The Harkonnen pool could have 3 scorpions, 2 artillery, 1 AA infantry and 1 guardsman.
And you buy whatever is the best unit in that slot that your current tech level allows.
If you buy any units they are subtracted from the pool, and every X turns the pool gets replenished to maximum (or just gets 1 unit replenished every Y turns).

Its also interesting to think about what factors should affect pool size/refresh rate.
I could see a National Wonder that would increase the size or refreshment rate of your pool, for example. Should it be linked to your on-Arrakis tech level?

I don't think polling the screen to check what units are available is necessarily a big problem if the screen is a big element of the game. That's what you have to do in Colonization and no-one complains about it.

I agree with your "if statement". However, I was thinking of this screen as a small element which added a little uniqueness, not as the main way to get units. I haven't played Col, but I gather this screen is the main/only way to get units?

If it is a small element for DW, I feel strongly Fremen should not have access to it. It represents what the Spacing Guild does to ship units to the planet. We should not overload it by saying the Fremen can also use it to import units from some distant towns. The Fremen should have another way to get units.

I don't like the free-unit-spawn mechanic. There is no strategy there; no decisions that the player makes to encourage this or anything, its just free units.

(redirected to "making fremen different" thread, new post in a few minutes)

hey guys,
i havent read all the posts here, im a bit busy these days,
but it seems that koma13 does an awesome work, and its gonna be an awesome aspect.

ill just add that every civ must have this screen, perhaps it can be a general one for eah civ, or as probably u guys will do - unique to each civ - though i think it will be heavier?

for the fremmen....we need to find some alternative, maybe they can just import units from other fremen sietchs or something like this.

anyway, you might have already discussed this issues,

so ill get back to the tech tree.

Thanks for the feedback. I will make a second version.

DA39. As requested in an earlier post, is it possible to trigger this screen on a button, which appears in cities that have the spaceport building?

What is the benefit in doing this? I find it a little counter intuitive to have to open the city screen first to get access to homeworld screen. :confused:

My suggestion was to allow the player to put the recruited units in any city which has a spaceport. This is the way mercenaries (used to) work in FFH; there is an action button available in any city which has a spaceport. These action buttons "look like" unit action buttons. World spells in FFH also "look like" unit action buttons. It is a little weird to see that every Grigori unit, including workers, work boats, etc has an action button to cast the World Spell, but it is easy to get used to.

Ah ok, but I think I already have a better solution to that problem... :)

For the background I would prefer a more solid/consistent image

I think I have a vague idea what you mean by this, but maybe you can create a rough example background to make it clear.

I think I have a vague idea what you mean by this, but maybe you can create a rough example background to make it clear.

Here is a preview pic of the next update. Maybe you can use that for inspiration. :)


http://s7.directupload.net/images/090814/6gzylbdb.jpg

really nice koma!

say just a q, are you doing the whole thing on python?

Homeworld screen/interface is done 100% in python. The cvgamecoredll is only needed for ai.

I see you have put a list of the cities on the right side. I assume I can click one of these to send the new troops to that city. This seems OK; the only problem is that I rarely remember the names of my cities, especially when they are all made-up words or Arabic words I don't know. That is why I thought of selecting the city first. Do you think this will be a problem? I suppose it would be very complicated to put the minimap there, or somehow allow the user to select the city by clicking on a map.

I agree that names are hard to remember, but it looks like there is a city screen picture of the city in the bottom right corner, which should help to figure it out. Presumably that picture changes depending on which city you have selected?

I assume I can click one of these to send the new troops to that city.
Yes, first select units you want to buy, then click on a city to send these units. The guild navigator will guide you through the process.

That is why I thought of selecting the city first.
Imho it doesnt make much sense to select a city before knowing which units are available for purchase.

Presumably that picture changes depending on which city you have selected?
Correct. The picture updates when you hover your cursor on top of a city name (recycled some code from Europe screen :)).

OK, that sounds great. BTW I have eliminated the Spacers Guild from the game as of 1.4.7 (not released yet). So if you want to use the leaderhead art for Pilru, go ahead. That image is from the Children of Dune miniseries. The image you have is from the internet somewhere, but I don't think that actually appeared in any of the movies or miniseries. I don't know where it is from.

That image is assembled from the beginning of the Lynch Dune film where a Guild ambassador visits the Emperor. I'm happy to go either way on which style of Navigator we use. I can get better quality shots from the Lynch film if we want. The Navigators are just humans evolved by the spice gas. I think that Edric in Children of Dune looks more humanoid, which is possibly better from an accuracy point of view. That said I do like the gas tank and Guild attendants in the Lynch film, if not the weird foetus-like Navigators.

I like the really twisted navigators and the gas tanks; Navigators are mutated beyond human. I also hate the picture we are using for the Bene Tl leader. Bene Tl are normally described as twisted mis-shapen dwarves, not charismatic looking normals.

I like the really twisted navigators and the gas tanks; Navigators are mutated beyond human. I also hate the picture we are using for the Bene Tl leader. Bene Tl are normally described as twisted mis-shapen dwarves, not charismatic looking normals.

When you hate something, please feel free to do something about it, such as finding a picture you like better. This is a screen cap from the only BT we ever see on screen in any of the Dune movies/miniseries.

I don't own any of the Dune movies/TV things, and I have no idea of any good art sources online. But some kind of twisted mutant would be better than this IMO.

Just providing feedback....

Here is a preview pic of the next update. Maybe you can use that for inspiration. :)


:wow: that looks fantastic.
I'll definetly have to look at it.

@Koma: Is the top panel going to be stretched or can we have something like this for a background?

I will try to keep aspect ratio, placing the top panel behind the monitors.

I had a look into that mercenary mod by thelopez/strategyonly and I think we can use it. I will remove all features not needed, adjust the rules to feedback and add the interface I presented a few days ago. This should help making a formidable new version. :)

If you can give me the final dimension for the background panel I can try and make Civ unique graphics.

Sounds good. Reading the description here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=329903).

We can probably rename the Self Preservation promotion to Elite and perhaps to the Mercenary promotion to Homeworld Unit (or something better).

We will probably have to customize a few things that done make sense in the importing from Homeworld context.

(redirect from 1.4.6 feedback page)

Hmm. I do worry that with the current system it is too easy for the first to get to offworld trade to monopolize all the good resources.
How about a combination?
a) Limit Landing stage to a national limit of 4. (And remove landing stage as a building requirement for other buildings if any).
b) Have three classes of resources: URUs, Major import resources, minor import resources.
Have each civ that is eligible for a URU (Corrino and Ix atm) automatically get that as their first resource. (Otherwise the AI might screw up and not get it if it picks 4 other resources, and the human player can strategically delay the resource to their 4th pick getting others first, knowing no-one else can take their one.)
Have the major import resources like the +2 luxury goods are now. These provide 3 copies and only 1 contract is allowed for the world.
Have the minor resources give +1 bonuses, provide 2 copies, and have 2 contracts allowed for the world. Marble would be a minor resource.
Have the AI make sure that they know that major resources are better than minor. Just hardcode the AI a preference order for its picks.

Then, once all the contracts are taken, then any additional landing stages do not give any further contracts.

So, there is still a nice bonus for the early researchers of offworld trade; you can get a bunch of the best resources, but its harder to lock out later people from still getting somethnig useful, and we don't get the craziness of 15 marble resources.

Caladanian wine could be a +1 happy minor resource. Pundi rice could be a +2 health major resource. Elacca could be a +1 happy resource. Fogwood could be a happy resource. Whale fur could be a minor happiness resource. etc.

I like Ahriman's ideas for limiting the number of landing stages and expanding the list of imported goods. We should also be more imaginative with the effects of offworld goods - health and happy bonuses only are a bit dull. Having them be building requirements and having amplifying buildings for some of them might be a start.

Not sure Elacca is the best for +1 happy. The main use in the book is to destroy the will of slaves in gladiatorial combat. I suggested a possible strategic use here. Now Ecaz are back in we should think about giving them some distinct trade advantages - better URs or buildings that amplify bonuses from imported goods maybe.

I wonder if there is more fun from more resources. At some point, we would have a whole pile of resources with very little game difference. For example, how many +2 happiness resources are interesting?

My suggestion is to aim small and do the following:
1. National cap of two landing stages.
2. Make sure that the URU have a higher weight so the AI will choose them first.
3. Give marble the same limit of one contract.
4. Make sure if there are no available contracts, nothing happens.

If anybody can suggest specific things that would add more fun, instead of just making the list longer, please suggest.

My suggestion is to aim small and do the following:
1. National cap of two landing stages.
2. Make sure that the URU have a higher weight so the AI will choose them first.
3. Give marble the same limit of one contract.
4. Make sure if there are no available contracts, nothing happens.

This sounds reasonable, at least for now. We don't want happiness to be too available, limiting you to 2 resources of your own would help achieve this, and help make sure that if you want multiple resources you have to trade for them, you can't just get the contracts yourself.

I would make sure that there are ~10 resources available then, including the strategic ones. So in an 8-9 player game there is still competition, but everyone could still get one, or half the players could get two.

I like replacing wine with Pundi rice; its more fun to have a mix of health and happy, so you could pick whichever you needed more.

I'd also make sure that Marble has the lowest AI weighting.

Race specific:
Water debt (palace, not landing stage)
Sardaukar
Thinking machines

Strategic:
Kindjal (could we replace this with Swordmaster Training? The kindjal is just a type of weapon, and this is a tech now)
Sapho
Marble

Luxuries/health:
Slig meat (maybe +1 health, +1 happy with banquet hall)
Opafire (+1 happy, +1 happy with spaceport?)
Pundi rice (+1 heath, +1 health with greenhouse?)
Soostones (+1 happy, +1 happy with guild bank?)
Semuta (+1 happy, +1 happy with theater hall?)
Whale fur (+1 happy)

Another thought:
If Ecazi are going to be a Trade-oriented civ, maybe they should be able to get a third Landing stage? Create a unique building for them (national limit 1) that has the same effect as a landing stage.

Also: isn't the Ginaz swordmaster school on the Ecazi planet? So should the Kindjal/Swordmaster training resource be an Ecazi-only resource, like Thinking Machines are for Ix?

If you can give me the final dimension for the background panel I can try and make Civ unique graphics.

I plan to make it 1024x512 px. Width will be stretched to resolution but I will keep a fixed aspect ratio ( height = width / 2 ).

I have a short question: I want to put some logo/slogan on top of the monitors in homeworld screen. Now I am trying to think of a name for a Guild news/intelligence network. CHOAM net? SPY-SAT? Something like that... Any ideas or suggestions are welcome. :)

galactic bulletins
"the grid"
com-sat
com-array
shadow reports

:)

I like the film opening: "A Secret Report within the Guild". Here's the master logo I used for the Guild when it was a faction. I've also taken another close up of a Guild helper.

Cool, I totally forgot about that film opening. Do you can get the logo in a higher quality ? Else I have to resize it to 512x512px.
Btw, please don't do any further work for homeworld background art until I have released a new version. I drastically changed look in comparision to the last preview pic. There are hardly any static graphics left beside the monitors...

Hehe keldath, great ideas! I think I go with 'shadow report'. But "The Grid" is very cool too. :lol:

That is the biggest guild icon I have - resize and maybe a slight shapen filter is probably your best bet for now.

Don't worry, I'm not doing any work for the homeworld screen. The only reason I took the navigator shot is because I have been going through the movie and TV series to get material for the tech tree icons, and I picked that one up on the way.

I tried guild logo ingame and it is looking fine. :)

I was a fan of making "Truthsayer cooperation" a trade good. This makes sense to me: the Bene Gesserit carefully loan out truthsayers to selected parties (or marry them), like how the Emperor has his truthsayer.
The resource could be required for building Reverend mothers, and for building a structure that boosts influence and espionage.

As I've mentioned before I don't think Truthsayer Coop is the best name since they Truthsayers effectively outrank RMs. Blessing of the Sisterhood or something like that would be more appropriate. Something that captures the fact that the BG are happy to work with this faction. I'd say Sisterhood Cooperation, but that is samey with Sardaukar coop.

The concept is good though.

Ahriman said about homeworld screen:
Are we abandoning the idea of having different pictures for each factions with a graphic of their home planet on it? I thought that was really awesome in some of the earlier concept art, though I understand it is obviously more work.

Now that 1.5 is out for a few days I want to make another update for the homeworld screen. What do you guys think of the new interface art? Do you like it? Or still prefering the homeworld planet style presented by Deliverator (here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8375006&postcount=122))? I am fine with both variants, current implementation was just a quick idea I had... :)

I quite like the current one. I'm wondering where we can go for a best of both solution. Perhaps the majority of the window could be as now, but then we fit a planet graphic over to the left by the unit pool which would be an appropriate place for it.

Can you display animated NIFs in the over a screen? I had a crazy idea you could actually have a spinning globe for each homeworld displayed. Sort of like a holographic projection or something. I can make the NIF, but I don't know if you can display 3D art in screens like that.

Exactly. I am thinking about joining both styles. I can play nif and bik files, both no problem.

That could be cool then. I'll make a spinning planet NIF so you can test the concept.

I'll make a spinning planet NIF so you can test the concept.

That doesn't make any astronomical sense, but I still think it would be very cool. :)

I'm not thinking that homeworld should appear amoung the stars above Arrakis - but rather you make some sort of separate window or viewport for it on the left-hand side.

This is true. I first thought you plan to place planets spinning around Arrakis...

OK Koma, let's test out this crazy idea. I was going to make a planet NIF and then I remember the worldpicker. This basically does what we want already - displays a spinning planet NIF.

So, I've made two test planets out of the worldpicker stuff. Caladan just uses some standard world picker textures, but I've made a custom Geidi Prime using the Emperor planet textures (I knew they'd come in useful!). If the idea works, I can obviously put more effort into the textures.

You can probably lift the interface code out of the World Picker and put the viewport in the top left hand corner of the homeworld screen. Then the unit pool list can go below.

I have great confidence in your interface python abilities! :)

You can probably lift the interface code out of the World Picker and put the viewport in the top left

World picker and main menu isn't python :(

Caladan just uses some standard world picker textures, but I've made a custom Geidi Prime using the Emperor planet textures

Caladan:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/66/civ4screenshot0001gf.jpg

I had to remove some nodes from your nif files and the continents have player color, but it's working. :goodjob:

Geidi Prime:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7749/civ4screenshot0003.jpg


Here is another try :

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3171/civ4screenshot0002m.jpg

I like the planet bigger, as in your "another try". However, in this case, please arrange the exit and launch buttons next to each other, to ensure people can find them.

Hmm, tough call; there are aspects of both that I like. I like the large full view of the planet in the third one, it makes the connection to the homeworld feel much stronger.

But I like the slightly larger view of the city and its surrounding area too to help identify them, and I like the hovering Heighliner and the little animation coming down from it when you pressed the launch button (would be even more awesome if a little frigate could fly from the Heighliner down to the city).

Is there a way we could try to capture some of each of these?

I don't really care for the Guildsmen, they look a bit silly.

Maybe we could take the first one, and adjust as follows.
Make the left third of the screen a box; at the top is the unit purchase selection, below it is a large version of the homeworld planet in space like in your third view.
Then use the rest of the screen to be like the first picture, with the Heighliner.

Something like the attached picture.

Cool stuff, koma. :)

I imagined a layout pretty much like Ahriman's diagram, but with the planet and the unit list switching places. A 1-third / 2-thirds split should allow the planet to be a reasonable size.

I notice a couple of things about the NIF.

1) The atmospheric halo has gone, was this causing a big problem? It helps in particular with Geidi Prime since it is basically a black planet against black space otherwise. Also, it looks like the detail layers have gone. Maybe you hacked the NIF up...
2) The planets look very slightly chopped of at the bottom.

Otherwise, great effort for getting it this far.

I imagined a layout pretty much like Ahriman's diagram, but with the planet and the unit list switching places.

This would be fine with me.

Make the left third of the screen a box; at the top is the unit purchase selection, below it is a large version of the homeworld planet in space like in your third view.
Then use the rest of the screen to be like the first picture, with the Heighliner.

imagined a layout pretty much like Ahriman's diagram, but with the planet and the unit list switching places. A 1-third / 2-thirds split should allow the planet to be a reasonable size.

I just make it half/half. I can also experiment making it dynamic, with ratio depending on mouse x position.

I notice a couple of things about the NIF.

1) The atmospheric halo has gone, was this causing a big problem? It helps in particular with Geidi Prime since it is basically a black planet against black space otherwise.
Well, currently I have imported the planet nifs as unique buildings. Problem is I can't rotate nifs in python. I had to remove atmosphere because it had wrong position.

Also, it looks like the detail layers have gone. Maybe you hacked the NIF up...
Maybe... :) Or there is an error in CIV4ArtDefines_Building.xml.

2) The planets look very slightly chopped of at the bottom.

I can fix it.

I like the hovering Heighliner and the little animation coming down from it when you pressed the launch button (would be even more awesome if a little frigate could fly from the Heighliner down to the city).
I can play effects but I don't know how to create them. But there is a nice selection of effects already included in Dune Wars. I got pretty distracted when trying them out a few weeks ago :)
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7302/civ4screenshot0004w.jpg


Another way of displaying the nifs inside homeworld screen would be adding a "planet" unit. Then we could control different homeworlds in CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml. Maybe I try that...

Can't do any more right now, but the rotation in the NIF itself. If you can post a working version at some stage then I can play with rotating the NIF with the atmos glow so that it looks right. The detail layer and the atmosphere will make it much more dazzling...

Well, currently I have imported the planet nifs as unique buildings. Problem is I can't rotate nifs in python. I had to remove atmosphere because it had wrong position.

I noticed when checking the planets in SceneViewer that they don't directly face the camera by default. It should be possible for me to edit the NIF to fix this.

Here is a small patch for the homeworld screen. It adds the planet nifs created by Deliverator, splitting up the screen:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5962/civ4screenshot0007t.jpg

I wasted a whole day trying to center the city view on the right side of the screen. It's not perfect, there is no simple connection between pixel and plots.

EDIT: New download, updated for DuneWars 1.53!

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2ndmzmzztm1

Deliverator, if you want to add more homeworlds, you can simply do that in CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml. For reference you can look up Geidi Prime.

Looks good!

Remaining comments:
The Launch message/button could be a bit bigger, its easy for new people to miss it.
Maybe some kind of vertical frame separating the left from right, like the framing in your third example in post 144?
The refresh rate of the pool (in-game, not graphic) seems to very, very slow, or not even replenishing at all.

I just have seen Deliverator released a new Patch 1.53. I have updated the new homeworld screen to make it compatible. Please (re-)download the patch, now called 2.02.

Looks good!
Thx for feedback. :)

Remaining comments:
The Launch message/button could be a bit bigger, its easy for new people to miss it.
Maybe some kind of vertical frame separating the left from right, like the framing in your third example in post 144?

Well, I am still planning a few things:
- redesign of the launch button
- more unit informations
- esc close the screen :goodjob:


The refresh rate of the pool (in-game, not graphic) seems to very, very slow, or not even replenishing at all.
There was some error completly disabling most homeworld mechanics/ai except human interface in recent versions. I fixed it in the new homeworld patch.

I just have seen Deliverator released a new Patch 1.53. I have updated the new homeworld screen to make it compatible. Please (re-)download the patch, now called 2.02.

Thanks, was wondering why my game was crashing :-)

Here's a another patch for the homeworld screen. Graphical only changes to improve the planet graphics.

I've managed to get the atmospheric glow and the backdrop working right for the planets. I'd like to be able to change the direction of the light source so that more of the planet is in shadow - that would be cool - I'm guessing it's not possible though since we are using the unit graphics engine?

I also tried to add rings to Kaitain like in the movie (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/81/Dune_Movie_Kaitain.jpg), but I couldn't get it convincing enough. May try again. Also, it might be interesting to add some moons to some of them like Tleilax (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u98/hkfreakg/For%20Tags/tleilaxu.jpg) in the movie. That many moons might be overkill though. :)

I prefer the starfield animation that is built into the NIF to the current swirling one, for a couple of reasons (i) it is better syncronized to the revolution of the planets and (ii) I can make a different starfield backdrop for each civ to add further variety. Is it possible to remove the swirling stars from the left-hand side and fix the little gap at the top where the NIF is cut off. If the NIF starfield has to be stretched then I can fix that.

I've produced 6 of the required planets and plugged them in. (Using CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml was a very clever thought Koma.) See screenshots - all taken in game from the homeworld screen.

Any ideas for Wallach IX and Ix appreciated. Can't remember if the Fremen have the screen...

I have some thought's on livening up and adding a bit more information to the screen - but I'll put together a mockup first.

I always thought of Ix like Trantor (Asimov) or Coruscant (Star Wars) : completely covered by cities. Image searching finds ...

Trantor (animated) (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/berns066/architecture/trantor.gif)
Coruscant 1 (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JA8dAMMyMr4/Rng_Cc740uI/AAAAAAAAAEM/gi5YfIAQ41I/s320/coruscant2.jpg)
Coruscant 2 (http://library.galciv2.com/mvlib/ss/Fullview_coruscant%20full.jpg)

Can't say I really love any of these specific ones.

I also tried to add rings to Kaitain like in the movie, but I couldn't get it convincing enough. May try again. Also, it might be interesting to add some moons to some of them like Tleilax in the movie. That many moons might be overkill though.

It's probably better without. Both of those screenshots fail the reality test for me. I don't think you can get rings that close to a small planet, or that many large moons either.

Can't remember if the Fremen have the screen...

They do, at least there is no code which prevents it. But there probably should be something different. They don't interact with the guild to import Fremen from the south pole, or wherever their reinforcements would reasonably come from.

I always thought of Ix like Trantor (Asimov) or Coruscant (Star Wars) : completely covered by cities.

In the prequel books, Ix is actually completely subterranean; the surface is fairly idyllic, the cities are all underground.

"In the Prelude to Dune (1999-2001) prequel novels, Ix is a beautiful planet with no development on the surface, and practically no one goes above ground. The developed part of Ix is subterranean, mainly consisting of labs and factories."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%27tair_Pilru

Kindof implausible, but at least semi-canon.


They do, at least there is no code which prevents it. But there probably should be something different. They don't interact with the guild to import Fremen from the south pole, or wherever their reinforcements would reasonably come from.

The mechanic still works, buying units for gold.
It would also give them a way of still purchasing a handful of vehicles and aircraft, despite not being able to build these normally in their cities.

The mechanic still works, buying units for gold.

I agree. But the underlying graphics of a heighliner and a transport effect are wrong. If the screen were more customized somehow for Fremen so the guild doesn't show up, that would be perfect.

I agree. But the underlying graphics of a heighliner and a transport effect are wrong. If the screen were more customized somehow for Fremen so the guild doesn't show up, that would be perfect.

Agreed. Maybe a nice desertscape or something? There must be some nice screenshots from the movie.

I think david's right, we need a custom version of the screen for the Fremen. A nice desert still image on the left, and no heighliner on the right would probably be most appropriate.

I was going to a mockup of some ideas I have for the screen - but I'm going to david's terraforming things first.

Here's my ideas:

1) I'd really like the heighliner to start next to the planet on the left, then when you click the button a little image/short video of a Navigator folding space appears in the centre at the top and then the heighliner fades in above Arrakis. I want the folding space aspect to be represented.

2) Beneath the planet, I'd like to have the faction logo, the name of the planet and a little bit of descriptive text like 'Caladan - Third planet of Delta Pavonis; traditional homeworld of House Atreides...', 'Ecaz - 'The Greenhouse Planet...', etc.

3) I'd like the Guild logo from the movie to appear somewhere. Perhaps a more visible 'LAUNCH' button with that logo as a backdrop? Also, LAUNCH seems like the wrong word somehow...

4) I'd like a bit of text explaning the purpose of the screen and adding theme somewhere across the top. 'A Guild heighliner awaits to transport much needed re-inforcements to Arrakis - if you can only pay the fee...'

One small weirdness as a result of using unique units for homeworlds. If you look in the unit list in the pedia, you see an entry for homeworld planet, a unit with the sardaukar button, strength 0, and movement 0. No big deal, just weird.

I saw some discussion of animation and rotation. Did I miss something in merging? The planets look awesome in the homeworld screen, but they do not animate.

@ koma, I know I asked to move the launch button to the bottom. But, it is even more important to keep both buttons (launch and exit) together. Please, either move the launch button back to the top next to exit, or move exit to the bottom.

1) I'd really like the heighliner to start next to the planet on the left, then when you click the button a little image/short video of a Navigator folding space appears in the centre at the top and then the heighliner fades in above Arrakis. I want the folding space aspect to be represented.

This sounds cool.


3) I'd like the Guild logo from the movie to appear somewhere. Perhaps a more visible 'LAUNCH' button with that logo as a backdrop? Also, LAUNCH seems like the wrong word somehow...

Maybe "purchase". Or "transport".

The planets should revolve! That's the coolest part... perhaps install both of the patches in case I missed something.

Having the homeworld unit is a small price to pay for the neat implementation we have going.

I think 'Transport Units' is good instead of 'Launch'.

The planets should revolve! That's the coolest part... perhaps install both of the patches in case I missed something.

Nuts. I have a lot of local changes and merging yours/koma's is a little time consuming. I merged 2.02 but I did not test it, then I merged 2.03.

Is anybody besides deliverator/koma13 installing these? Do you see rotation?

I am seeing rotation - very cool.

I have: 1.5 + 1.5.3 patch + HW2.03 patch from post 156.

However, despite the fact that I am Ix (and the screen says "reinforcements from Ix") the rotating planet looks like Caladan.

Great new planet nifs. But can it be they have some impact on performance? Planets swirling is very stuttering, I can nearly count the frames. This problem seems to be limited to the nif itself, performance of other parts of screen (selection, camera movement) are fine.

I'd like to be able to change the direction of the light source so that more of the planet is in shadow - that would be cool - I'm guessing it's not possible though since we are using the unit graphics engine?

No, not really. We could try placing the home planets as a unit on map and then change facing direction. I don't think it's worth the trouble. Another way would be making it a movie, but then we can't loop it...
Of course you can always move the planet nif with your mouse/keyboard, giving you a temporary illusion of having a cool placement. :)

Is it possible to remove the swirling stars from the left-hand side and fix the little gap at the top where the NIF is cut off. If the NIF starfield has to be stretched then I can fix that.

See attachement and copy it to python/screens.

Can't remember if the Fremen have the screen...

For Fremen I can remove the (left) planet view and the space ship. Maybe placing an animated moon at the upper screen? This graphic can be cool too:


http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2189/duneiibyusernameunknown.jpg


One small weirdness as a result of using unique units for homeworlds. If you look in the unit list in the pedia, you see an entry for homeworld planet, a unit with the sardaukar button, strength 0, and movement 0. No big deal, just weird.
I can remove it in next update.

I saw some discussion of animation and rotation. Did I miss something in merging? The planets look awesome in the homeworld screen, but they do not animate.
You need to set graphic options to high.

Here's my ideas:

1) I'd really like the heighliner to start next to the planet on the left, then when you click the button a little image/short video of a Navigator folding space appears in the centre at the top and then the heighliner fades in above Arrakis. I want the folding space aspect to be represented.
This would be awesome. Maybe we can make it a little movie...

I will think about 2,3 & 4, I can imitate the guild report style from the lynch movie intro. If someone want to write these descriptive texts, I can add them...

However, despite the fact that I am Ix (and the screen says "reinforcements from Ix") the rotating planet looks like Caladan.
I think there is still no planet for Ix, Caladan is only a place holder.

Great new planet nifs. But can it be they have some impact on performance? Planets swirling is very stuttering, I can nearly count the frames.

I have no stuttering issues, it is very smooth for me, but my computer is fairly high end.

I think there is still no planet for Ix, Caladan is only a place holder.

Then no problem.

The planets look awesome in the homeworld screen, but they do not animate.
You need to set graphic options to high.

OK, now it works. Cool(er)!! This is definitely worth mentioning in the release note.

I have no stuttering issues, it is very smooth for me, but my computer is fairly high end.

My machine is 1-2 years old, so "medium end", and I do not have any stuttering issues. I guess this is also worth mentioning in the release note.

Of course you can always move the planet nif with your mouse/keyboard, giving you a temporary illusion of having a cool placement.

I wouldn't have thought of doing that unless you mentioned it. Using the arrow keys causes the flat halo and animated backdrop to spin, which looks very weird. Is it possible to bind these keys so they always move the map on the right, instead of changing the camera view on the left?

Of course you can always move the planet nif with your mouse/keyboard, giving you a temporary illusion of having a cool placement.

I wouldn't have thought of doing that unless you mentioned it. Using the arrow keys causes the flat halo and animated backdrop to spin, which looks very weird. Is it possible to bind these keys so they always move the map on the right, instead of changing the camera view on the left?

Yeah, I didn't try that either until now, but its very weird. Its not a big problem, but there isn't any particular gain from allowing it.

Yeah, I didn't try that either until now, but its very weird. Its not a big problem, but there isn't any particular gain from allowing it.

I know. It's enabled by default (you can try it in civilopedia). I can turn that off by placing a invisble layer on top of the planet. Not sure about the arror keys.

I have no stuttering issues, it is very smooth for me, but my computer is fairly high end.
Hmm. I have a low end computer, bought in 2004... :dunno: Let's see if other people complaining about performance.

My computer is 2003 vintage, but I do have quite a decent graphics card. I did notice some stuttering, but I thought that might be from having your star backdrop playing as well as the NIF. Does removing that help?

There's a bit of optimizing I can do on the textures - I can put up another version with Koma's original backdrop removed from the left-hand side and optimized textures. We'll see if that helps things.

That Fremen image is quite decent - the stars look a bit dodgy... we can do the usual routine and I can tweak it once you release.

Noticed the drag thing on the left hand side - we should disable that.

I can write some little planet descriptions at some point soon.

My computer is 2003 vintage, but I do have quite a decent graphics card.
Me too, I have an ATI X800 Pro!:worship: Usually my cpu is the bottleneck...

That Fremen image is quite decent - the stars look a bit dodgy... we can do the usual routine and I can tweak it once you release.

I know, always feeling like a vampire. :) What is about making a new main interface? ...

My textures were shockingly over-sized in some cases - I've been able to halve the file size in many cases with no loss of quality. Run smooth on my machine now.

Edit: Koma, your background DDS files are also waaaaaay big. For one, background.dds is just a black square. With DDS files that are just a solid block of colour an 8x8 px file will serve exactly the same purpose as 1024x1024 px file. I changed the file and the size taken up is now 1KB instead of 1MB! Also I was able to compress heighliner3.dds using DXT5 - from 2MB to ~500KB. So, to summarise, the attached patch will take up much less of people's graphics memory... all for no loss in visible quality. :)

I also brightened and sharpened the heighliner a little bit.

new main interface

Definitely worth doing. No particular ideas right now. I liked what FFH2 did a lot - the way they made more space for things was good.

The last post contains a new patch for the homeworld screen - I strongly suggest using this version for patch 1.5.4.

The new planet graphics are much better, no stuttering. Background.dds isn't needed anymore and can be removed. ;)

What is about making a new main interface? ... I really would like to avoid having different screens for main interface, city screen and homeworld screen.

Ok, the last sentence doesn't make much sense. What I wanted to say is that I would like to have some consistent style for main interface, city screen and homeworld screen, if possible. This is also the main reason why I still don't have any real interface graphics for the bottom half of the homeworld screen (monitors, guild logo, ...).

Deliverator, I need you help and talent. :p The current homeworld screen design is a little schizophrenic with these both completely different sides. I thought how we could make a somewhat believable seperation without sacreficing too much screen space. And I had an idea, but unfortunately my graphics skills are too limited to make more than a simple concept art:


http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9132/tankyv.jpg


I hope you know what it is. :)

To make it perfect we would need:
- a metallic surface look
- some more details
- animated bubbles would be great too
- a Darth Vader-like breathing sound

What do you think?

I recognise it...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sQtM8sw_8GY/SnzRXud6jDI/AAAAAAAAACo/Ey90LiWEh9c/s320/Navigator.jpg

Mmmm. Not sure. I think for a simple divider something Guild styled like that could be cool, but I think adding more animated effects over the top is going to distract to much from the view of the planet and the map. I want to do a rough mockup incorporating the ideas I posted earlier so I can try and do a rough divider.

Incidentally, can we change the interface so that the map only centres on the city in question AFTER you click on it? I find it too hectic as it currently is, scrolling around on mouseover.

Well, I like the idea of putting the player in the perspective of a guild navigator, seeing plans within plans inside his tank.
But of course I can wait for your incorporating...

Incidentally, can we change the interface so that the map only centres on the city in question AFTER you click on it? I find it too hectic as it currently is, scrolling around on mouseover.
Dude, you have to watch more mtv. ;)

Anyway, in CvHomeworldAdvisor.py disabling line 271 should be enough:
# self.lookAtCity(self.player.getCity(inputClass.get ID()))

Here's three mockups showing roughly the layout and the sequence of events I was describing a few posts back.

1) Heighliner starts on the left.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229355&stc=1&d=1254171492
2) You click Transport Units and a video clip or sequence of slides plays.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229356&stc=1&d=1254171492
3) The Heighliner fades in on the right.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229357&stc=1&d=1254171492

I've switched to using the heighliner from the miniseries as actual folding space bit is illustrated better - and I wan't the animation/video and the graphics to match up. But I would like the fetus-like Lynch Navigators (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkLbSFWDwEQ) to be included in the sequence before somehow as I have soft spot for them (and I'm guessing you do too!).

We can either have make a short sequence of stills for step 2 or edit a little clip of video together (which I have zero experience of doing).

I'll upload a little pack of source images soon for you to look through.

You can see I've also done a Wallach IX planet now, just need to sort something decent for Ix.

This looks fantastic.

Here's three mockups showing roughly the layout and the sequence of events I was describing a few posts back.

Ok, I will see what I can make out of it. Biggest challenge will be making a time lapse inside a screen. I know there is a timer class in python. David used it for his performance statistics. Not sure I can use it...

Here's a link a selection of images of the miniseries heighliner:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?guywnogwyzo

This may seem like a non-sequitur, but I would much rather have better city placement from the AI, rather than a nice heighliner animation.

Like I said elsewhere, I 'm guessing that the single biggest improvement would come from ignoring tiles in the BFC of another city when calculating the value of each plot. That would stop the AI from trying to place the same groundwater resource in two separate cities' BFCs, so it would hopefully place its cities a bit further apart.

This may seem like a non-sequitur, but I would much rather have better city placement from the AI, rather than a nice heighliner animation.

This is coming from someone who didn't wanted to touch the sdk for months because it is no fun to mod? :)

Everyone seems to be in a grumpy mood today...

Mondays :)

This is coming from someone who didn't wanted to touch the sdk for months because it is no fun to mod? :)

Of course it is your decision what you work on, and we are all here to have fun. I was only recalling that you have already modified the function which determines the value of colony sites, and this appears to be another modification to the same function.

Here is a experimental patch for the homeworld screen, reassembling the screen Deliverator presented a few posts ago.


http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9093/civ4screenshot0001e.jpg


Warning: This is still very experimental. Don't use it if you can't afford crashing your computer. :) DW patch 1.5.4 needed.

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jy2duyznnnm

I exported all text strings to a xml file called DuneWars_HomeworldText.xml.

@Deliverator:
If you want to edit the sequence you can replace images in /Art/Interface/Screens/Homeworld/transition_sequence. If you want to extend the sequence, just add more dds files, naming them sequence_7.dds, sequence_8.dds, ... No python/xml editing needed. :king:

Nice work man. :) I won't be able to try it until later, but it looks good.

Is there a quick and easy way to test the homeworld screen? I give myself Offworld Trade in the World Bulder, but the unit pool is not populated.

Did you also give yourself a city for the units to appear in? I just started a game, founded a city with the settler, and then gave myself OT in WB. The HWR button is there and there are units in the HWR screen.

Yes, I know you need a city, but the problem is there aren't any units in the pool. Are there units in the pool when you do one city + offworld trade?

It worked easily for me. I just double checked. Even if I don't have any money yet, I still get a list of units. If I also give myself some money in WB, then I can purchase them fine.

What happens if you autoplay a few turns first with shift-ctrl-x? Does that help any?

Maybe I've got the wrong DLL somehow - now that I've put together my weekend patch I'll put together a clean 1.5.4 and see if that sorts it.

In the process of merging your files with my local changes, I see that you have made some small changes to MercenaryUtil.py. That is fine. But your version of CvHomeWorldAdvisor.py is very different from mine. I have not changed that file (ever), so if you did not make significant changes to that, please try reloading just that one file from the 1.5.4 disti. I assume you have python logging turned on and you did not get any exceptions, but I did not think you would be changing the python.

I haven't touched the Python myself, it's Koma's work - see this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8503264&postcount=190).

Oh, I missed that. Is it possible you are the only one using that, and it is broken?

Maybe I've got the wrong DLL somehow - now that I've put together my weekend patch I'll put together a clean 1.5.4 and see if that sorts it.

Can you activate python exceptions?

I have Python logging on, and am not seeing any error. Is it possible that the queue is working fine but it is just invisible for some reason with the layout changes?

I have integrated your rar file into my local area, and the HWR screen is working just as before. I give myself a city, some money, and off world trade tech, and I can purchase units from the HWR screen. I tried as Harkonnen and BG. I see the new art for BG, so everything seems to be working for me.

Sounds like user error on my part then... it wouldn't be the first time. It's strange though - I've reinstalled 1.5 then 1.5.4 then the new patch and I still get no unit list - I'll wait for the patch.

Koma, can we disable the left click draging on the planet of the left hand side of the screen please? It kind of breaks the mood.

Is it possible that the queue is working fine but it is just invisible for some reason with the layout changes?

In screen shots you posted there is no 'TRANSPORT' text, just an empty button. This indicates that a large part of the homeworld screen code isn't executed. Usually that should throw an exception. :confused:

I tried your update:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4788/civ4screenshot004.jpg

Btw, in general it is no good idea to bundle my latest update with a regular dw patch. I am try to understand the concept of multi threading and make great use of it in the homeworld screen. Currently it is very easy to freeze civ4, i still have to improve that.

Ah ha! I was expecting a popup with Python errors, but this only showed up in the log file:

Traceback (most recent call last):

File "CvScreensInterface", line 956, in handleInput

File "CvMainInterface", line 7807, in handleInput

File "CvScreensInterface", line 198, in showHomeworldAdvisorScreen

File "CvHomeworldAdvisor", line 121, in interfaceScreen

File "MercenaryUtils", line 121, in loadMercenaryData

File "MercenaryUtils", line 137, in getMercenaryUnit

File "MercenaryUtils", line 162, in getRandomUnitType

File "MercenaryUtils", line 190, in isInvalidEra

AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'getEra'
ERR: Python function handleInput failed, module CvScreensInterface

This is in 1.5.4 installed clean WITHOUT any other patches. I just gave myself Offworld Trade with WB and founded a city.

Btw, in general it is no good idea to bundle my latest update with a regular dw patch.

Ack! I have already integrated this, as part of deliverator's patch, on top of all my other changes. I am not sure how to back it out.

Ah ha! I was expecting a popup with Python errors, but this only showed up in the log file:

That is curious. I did not get that error when I released 1.5.4, and I do not get that error now. Perhaps part of the interface is missing (I am not sure what it is supposed to look like) but I am able to purchase units correctly.

Offhand, I don't see how elements in PrereqTechList can be None when calling getEra at line 190. The checks against -1 at the previous lines should prevent this.

Ack! I have already integrated this, as part of deliverator's patch, on top of all my other changes. I am not sure how to back it out.

I think we should just test the stability before panicking. It may be OK.

That is curious. I did not get that error when I released 1.5.4, and I do not get that error now. Perhaps part of the interface is missing (I am not sure what it is supposed to look like) but I am able to purchase units correctly.

Offhand, I don't see how elements in PrereqTechList can be None when calling getEra at line 190. The checks against -1 at the previous lines should prevent this.

I don't have this problem on my other PC so I wouldn't worry too much. It was working fine up until recently. I would have thought deleting the Dune Wars folder and re-installing would fix anything like this but apparently not.

I'm really confused about the homeworld screen thing. It must be something outside of my Mod/Dune Wars folder since I've deleted it completely, rebooted my machine and installed plain 1.5 - still getting the same exception.

Edit: If I change isInvalidEra to always return false, then I get the list of units. So it seems like something in this block of code is not robust enough for my very fussy PC - highlight the line throwing the error:

if UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTech() != -1:
PrereqTechList.append(UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTech())

for i in range(4):
if UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTechs(i) != -1:
PrereqTechList.append(UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTechs(i ))

for iTech in PrereqTechList:
if gc.getTechInfo(iTech) != -1:
iTechEra = gc.getTechInfo(iTech).getEra()

if iTech == -1:
continue
if iTechEra < iEra:
continue
if iTechEra > iEra:
break

bInvalidEra = false
break

I'm really confused about the homeworld screen thing

I agree this is a little disturbing. With the change you have made, units from all eras will be available, which is probably not good. FYI you can use a "code" block instead of a "quote" block to keep the indents. Try moving the comparison against -1 up earlier:

for iTech in PrereqTechList:
if iTech == -1:
continue
iTechEra = gc.getTechInfo(iTech).getEra()
if iTechEra < iEra:
continue
if iTechEra > iEra:
break

bInvalidEra = false
break

I don't see why this would persist after a re-installation for you, unless you have something weird in My Games/CustomAssets. Even if you did, I can't think what kind of stuff in CustomAssets would cause this.

I've changed the code as you suggested, but I still get the error:

AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'getEra'

Is there anything more I can do to diagnose the issue? iTech is the id for a technology I take it? And the technology returned by gc.getTechInfo(iTech) is a 'NoneType' object for some reason?

OK I don't know if this helps, but if I change this range(4) to range(3) I don't get the issue.


def isInvalidEra(self, player, iUnit):

UnitInfo = gc.getUnitInfo(iUnit)
PrereqTechList = []
iEra = player.getCurrentEra()

bInvalidEra = true

if UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTech() != -1:
PrereqTechList.append(UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTech())

for i in range(3):
if UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTechs(i) != -1:
PrereqTechList.append(UnitInfo.getPrereqAndTechs(i ))

for iTech in PrereqTechList:
iTechEra = gc.getTechInfo(iTech).getEra()
if iTech == -1:
continue
if iTechEra < iEra:
continue
if iTechEra > iEra:
break

bInvalidEra = false
break

return bInvalidEra

If I then change it back to range(4) and the Python is reloaded I can still see the unit list in the Homeworld screen. However, if I reload the mod again completely with range(4) then I get the exception again.

Edit: As far as I can see we only have one unit that requires more than one tech and that is the Firefly which requires Air Power and Liquid Fuel. If the range value is set to 4 that means that presumably we allowing for units which have 4 Prereq Techs which seems excessive.

Hmm, strange. Right now I can only say, that rewriting the gameplay part of the homeworld screen is on my todo list.... Lets see if I can make it more robust.

I still think it is no good idea to add the current Homeworld patch (2.05) to the regular update. You have to be very careful when sequence is playing, don't click on anything. The transition sequence has its on process thread but I forgot to synchronize threads after sequence is played. I just disabled interface input for some time. Now it can happen that input is reenabled to early and if you click with your mouse somewhere, this could lead to more than one thread accessing the same screen output, making your civ4 freeze...
I can fix it, give me some days.

What do you think about the sequence/new screen (when purchasing a unit) in general?
Here some thoughts from me:
- I am not sure but the sequence is maybe too long?
- I can now fade in/out dds graphics :cool:
- I like the old heighliner more...
- the new exit-button position is imho a step backwards, the former exit button was in same place as the homeworld screen button in main interface, making quick checking hw screen more comfortable

If the sequence is going to cause stability issues then I'm happy to drop it. The fading out and fading in again of the heighliner might be enough. And yes, the fading is :cool:.

If you can get the sequence stable - we could just have a few Navigator shots, or if you want to revert to the old heighliner then there is a BIK movie in the Emperor:Battle for Dune game which has an old school heighliner transporting.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=230103&stc=1&d=1254776240

Personally, I think the miniseries one looks slightly cooler. I would like to add the old school Navigators to the sequence though.

I think the sequence might be a frame too long as well.

I think david was suggesting the buttons should be at the bottom, but you may have a point about ease of checking the screen.

It sounds like david isn't doing a new patch until the weekend so hopefully we have a few days :)

Personally, I think the miniseries one looks slightly cooler. I would like to add the old school Navigators to the sequence though.
Ok, I will try making a sequence or bik movie with guild navigators.

It sounds like david isn't doing a new patch until the weekend so hopefully we have a few days
I hope... :) I want to think about having harvesters outside culture borders and ai city placement...

I integrated the 2.05 HW screen as part of deliverator's patch, and now I am not sure how to back it out. It seems to cause a python error for deliverator (but not for me), and koma seems uncertain about the stability. Since we have over a thousand downloads, I want to be a little more certain there are no bad side effects, even for patches.

So, I did not put up the 1.5.5 changes I discussed from this past weekend.

@ koma13, if I change only the CvHomeWorldAdvisor.py file back to the 2.04 version, will this be "safer"? This will use your older graphics with no transition sequence. Or, is there some way we can build more confidence that it is "safe"? I can't see the download count of your 2.05 release, or deliverator's art patch which includes 2.05. It is possible nobody tried it except for deliverator and me. It did not crash for either of us, or you either, but this is not very much testing yet.

I had stopped taking elaborate protections against merge changes for the last month or so, and as a result I did not keep copies of some of my local changes before I unpacked deliverator's art patch. My fault. If reverting CvHomeWorldAdvisor.py is not enough, we will have to discuss how to back it out.

OK I don't know if this helps, but if I change this range(4) to range(3) I don't get the issue.

I investigated a little more, and this is the exact cause. The question is no longer why it fails for deliverator, the right question is why does it *work* for me and koma13. In assets/xml/GlobalDefines.xml we find:

<Define>
<DefineName>NUM_AND_TECH_PREREQS</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>4</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>NUM_UNIT_AND_TECH_PREREQS</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>3</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>NUM_BUILDING_AND_TECH_PREREQS</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>3</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>


So anything which refers to a fourth unit prereq *should* fail. I'm not sure why one installation would have this problem and another would not. But changing 4 to 3 appears to be the proper solution. I will make this locally.

I can fix it, give me some days.

@David: Hopefully, Koma can tidy up this multi-threading issue soon. So, if you are OK with delaying the new patch until then then I suggest we wait. I may have a few more bits of art by then too.

It sounds like david isn't doing a new patch until the weekend so hopefully we have a few days
I hope... :) I want to think about having harvesters outside culture borders and ai city placement...

I had a read through the 1000 line, uncommented single function AI_foundValue, which computes the AI value for each plot to found a new city. Up till about 1/3 of the way through, I was kind of following it, then I totally lost track. As you had stated before, understanding and then improving this function will be "not fun". If you can get anywhere, more power to you.

Here, I made a small video of the new space travel sequence I am currently working on. :)

uFAgEhXZj3s


Up till about 1/3 of the way through, I was kind of following it, then I totally lost track.
I know that. I tried to improve city placement 2 or 3 times and always ended up making the ai to picky about city sites, wasting valuable tiles inbetween. Maybe it's easier to completely rewrite ai_foundvalue from scratch, allowing us to make our own system for valuing city sites. :dunno:

Its neat, but it looks like it takes too long, particularly if it does that sequence every time you purchase a unit.

A travel animation should be at most 3-4 seconds each time you purchase a unit.

There could be a long form that activates the first time I guess and then shorter ones afterward, but otherwise it needs to remain quick. A lot of players (including myself) tend to activate "quick combat" because the fight sequence animations can be too long considering how many battles there are.

It is fancy, but I agree with Ahriman that it takes too long. It's too much for something that you have to sit through repeatedly.

Did you not like the split screen set-up? I thought the split screen was quite a good way to go. Personally, I'd prefer keeping the split screen design with the stability issues fixed.

Also, minor point, but it looks like you are not using the updated heighliner graphic and homeworld descriptions from my patch. It would be good to make the description area a bit bigger as the Ecaz description is too big for the area and has a scrollbar at the moment.

Did you not like the split screen set-up? I thought the split screen was quite a good way to go.

I liked this too.

Its neat, but it looks like it takes too long, particularly if it does that sequence every time you purchase a unit.

I know... It is new and I tried out some ideas. :)

Did you not like the split screen set-up? I thought the split screen was quite a good way to go. Personally, I'd prefer keeping the split screen design with the stability issues fixed.

Hmm, I am not sure. When I make a screen I always try to keep an eye on not having to much 'dead' space (not containing any ingame critical informations).
Now I tried to share screen space more dynamically, showing full screen destination (and surrounding tiles) when needed and presenting a full planet view for flavour when units are taken from homeworld. It doesn't have to be exactly that way but I think making it split screen 50% each all the time isn't necessary anymore.

Also, minor point, but it looks like you are not using the updated heighliner graphic and homeworld descriptions from my patch.
True, there was some accident messing up my civ4 setup. I had to reinstall dune wars but missed latest hw patch. No problem...

It would be good to make the description area a bit bigger as the Ecaz description is too big for the area and has a scrollbar at the moment.
I don't think current layout is the final one. :)

Hmm, I am not sure. When I make a screen I always try to keep an eye on not having to much 'dead' space (not containing any ingame critical informations).
Now I tried to share screen space more dynamically, showing full screen destination (and surrounding tiles) when needed and presenting a full planet view for flavour when units are taken from homeworld. It doesn't have to be exactly that way but I think making it split screen 50% each all the time isn't necessary anymore.

In the split screen version, I wouldn't think of the left hand homeworld view as being dead space - it is contributing flavour and backstory. If you only kept what is 'necessary' you could just have a plain black screen...

Initially I suggested a 1/3 homeworld 2/3 city view split, that way the flavour takes up a smaller portion of the screen. That said I think the half-and-half works fine.

I made a new sequence, this time starring a guild navigator. :lol:

mMjO-rKNdPI

I also fixed the stability issues. You can access now the interface (selecting new units/destinations, canceling the screen), even if the sequence is still playing in the background.

Nice work. I'm glad were back with the split screen setup and the stability is sorted.

I'm thinking you've spent enough time on this for now, but at some point I'd like to see the whole body of the Navigator in the clip - the bit from 2.28 in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkLbSFWDwEQ) for example.

I don't understand what the image at the ~10/11 second mark is supposed to be. Its just an orange blob with flames.

You need to watch the 1984 movie again. :) Watch this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkLbSFWDwEQ). This is part of the Navigator folding space sequence. That's why I said seeing the whole Navigator would be good - to give some context.

I don't understand what the image at the ~10/11 second mark is supposed to be. Its just an orange blob with flames.

This is a guild navigator, using his energy to fold space. It's from a lynch movie, it is made to confuse you. :)
But wait till you can see it ingame, the youtube clip has an awkward quality...

Its been 15 years since I saw the movie.

Ok, that clip from the movie is... completely retarded.

I *strongly* suggest that we don't use that.

This is supposed to be some kind of metaphysical representation of what is going on? It is bizarre, and will be incredibly confusing to the viewer. The navigator is a mutated post-human in a tank filled with gas, not a free-floating blob in space shooting out energy beams.

I would rather have no sequence at all than this sequence. Or just something showing physically what happens. It doesnt need to be animated either; there could just be 3 still shots. One of the heighliner in space, one of it in the middle of some kind of wormhole tunnel, and one of it hovering above Arrakis on the right.
Or just start with the Heighliner above the planet on the left, then fade it out, play a sound effect, and fade it in on the right above Dune. Nice little 3 second sequence.

Remember that we are basing things from the *book*, not the weird things they did in the movie.

[Also, they gave Paul a little dog? Wtf??]

Man, I was going to Netflix the movie, but after watching that clip.... I thing I'd remain more of a Dune fan if I *didn't* watch it again.

Man, I was going to Netflix the movie, but after watching that clip.... I thing I'd remain more of a Dune fan if I *didn't* watch it again.

I found it very effective to watch with the sound off. I can play the interesting dialog in my head, and it's easier to ignore the completely non-canon bits. But it does have nice visuals for thopters, worms, life in the sietch, etc.

I did find the SciFi miniseries a lot more worthwhile than the Lynch one.

The best versions of the original Dune movie are actually fan-edits made in the last few years which have taken all the available footage and re-edited the film back to closer to its intended 3 hours. There are a lot of scenes Lynch filmed that I never realised existed such as Paul's fight with Jamis.

I love the atmosphere of the original film up to about half-way. The scenes on Caladan in particular have a great atmosphere. Sadly, some of the Lynch-isms definitely detract from the thing as whole - heartplugs, weirding modules and the crazy bit where Jessica and Alia spontaneously get nosebleeds. I actually quite like the fetus-Navigator doing his energy thing. It is abstract, but it has a certain charm.

The miniseries is truer to the books, mostly because it has 6 hours to cover the story in, and is worth a view. However, the Harkonnens, desert sets, and some of the acting performances are embarrassingly bad. At least the original movie has a scary Baron and real desert...

Come on, guys. This is just a short sequence...

Having a space transition just with ships and a wormhole imho is too generic. Think about what is making dune space travel unique... ;)

Having a space transition just with ships and a wormhole imho is too generic.

I would prefer generic to bizarre. Really, its just instantaneous inter-planetary warping. Thats enough.
I hardly think that we need to worry about the homeworld screen being "too generic". No other mod has this.

And the worm-fire thing doesn't at all demonstrate to the casual viewer what is happening either.
The scene is only recognizable by someone who already knows the fluff *and* has seen the movie.
Visuals should be something that help to explain the fluff, not things that require knowledge of the fluff in order to understand.

Ahriman, no offense, but this isn't really something you can win. :p

Really, its just instantaneous inter-planetary warping.
No, you completely miss the part about consuming spice, something not represented in an ordinary warping scene.

Visuals should be something that help to explain the fluff, not things that require knowledge of the fluff in order to understand.
I disagree. Visuals are a medium for flavor and athmosphere. The idea behind consuming drugs to fold and travel space is a little weird, to say at least. I think Lynch's navigator scene is an adequate way to represent that weirdness.

The scene is only recognizable by someone who already knows the fluff *and* has seen the movie.
Maybe. See it as a tribut to the movie. Also keep in mind that understanding the scene isn't vital for making good ingame decisions, you will get your homeworld unit anyway.

Remember that we are basing things from the *book*, not the weird things they did in the movie.

No, this isn't true. We never decided to favor the books over the movie... :p

Ok, enough nitpicking... :)

If you are concernced about people not understanding it, I can offer making a little intro sequence for our dune mod, explaining terms and basics. Of course I would need some help with content and dialogs.

How folding space is done exactly is very open to interpretation. I think Lynch's interpretation is much more atmospheric than the scene in the miniseries for example. That the navigators look nothing like evolved humans is the only thing that I think really goes against the book. Edric in the Children of Dune miniseries is probably the most faithful representation of a Navigator that I've seen on screen.

I think it is good to be faithful to the books first as I think that is the richest source of ideas and inspiration, but it makes sense to make a mod that will appeal to fans of the movie (of which there are many), TV series, the former Dune games as well as those who've never even heard of Dune. We want to be inclusive not exclusive. I'm sure there will be Dune purists who will hate Ordos being present or the fact that we have tanks, etc. Keeping everyone 100% happy is impossible, and I think we have done a pretty good job of compromising and accommodating different peoples wishes so far.

Ahriman, no offense, but this isn't really something you can win.

Well, lets try it your way and get feedback from mod users. But the post 224 sequence was pretty incomprehensible IMO.

If you are concernced about people not understanding it, I can offer making a little intro sequence for our dune mod, explaining terms and basics.

Its not a matter of terms and basics; I know the terms and basics, and I couldn't figure out what I was looking at.

Any sequence needs to be comprehensible to someone who knows the Dune material but hasn't seen the movie (or doesn't remember that particular scene).

The scene didn't look like a post-human consuming drugs through the air and folding space with their mind to move a giant starship. It looked like an orange blob erupting in fire.

I like the new unit buying system.

My opinion on the interface:
1) There's no need in a little movie. Or at least make it optional. I'm fine with 3 steps: I click "transport" and a transport fades in, units are spawned, transport fades out. I don't want to wait because I buy some units every turn and also it takes a lot of time in multiplayer.
2) Current transport looks too flat/2d. It's not a fault of the designer of the feature, you can't blame a man for not making such a small thing while creating a good flavorful screen with a cool effect; but I'd like it to be replaced with some 3d mesh/better shaded image which doesn't look as it's "drawn" on a flat canvas.

Thank you for your attention :).

Listen Ahriman, sometimes there are things not being meant for full understanding...
Traveling trough space by drugs is such an unimaginable thing. How you want to represent it?
... In the end there is no right or wrong when showing spiritual processes, making your opposition maybe a little blinkered. :p

I don't want to wait because I buy some units every turn and also it takes a lot of time in multiplayer.
No panic. In next update the interface will be non blocking during the sequence, giving you 100% control all the time.

Current transport looks too flat/2d. ... I'd like it to be replaced with some 3d mesh/better shaded image which doesn't look as it's "drawn" on a flat canvas.
I know, but Deliverator is pretty much occupied with doing real units and I don't have any knowledge in that 3d thing...

Listen Ahriman, sometimes there are things not being meant for full understanding...

And game design is not one of those things. This is a strategy game, not an abstract cubist art gallery. We should be aiming for maximum understanding.

In the end there is no right or wrong when showing spiritual processes, making your opposition maybe a little blinkered.

Ummm.... no. If people can't work out what is going on, then it is the wrong way. The visuals need to be aimed at the consumers of the mod. It needs to be something that says "hey, that looks cool", rather than something that says "uhhh.... wtf was *that*?".

Most people when they see that sequence are going to think it represents some kind of rocket blasting off from an orange planet.

I think your insistence of including something that almost nobody is giong to understand or appreciate it because *you* like it is rather more blinkered than me.

But anyway, its only a few seconds, so do what you like.

I know, but Deliverator is pretty much occupied with doing real units and I don't have any knowledge in that 3d thing... So, if I make a 3d model, will you be able to use it?

Did you though to add Slig:
Slig is BTl only offworld resource , (meat) (providing +1 hapiness +1 health > )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Tleilax#Sligs

(Thats pigs, just space BTl pigs hahaha)

Did you though to add Slig:

Please see the civilopedia, dune wars concept tab, offworld trade section. There is a list of all the current offworld trade resources. Slig is there.

ninjaed

Oh dam.... I checked offworld trade 1st time and didnt found it, checked 2nd time and i found it!!! Wonders and Magic hehe

(oups) :P

Here's a low poly 3d heighliner, it makes no impact of the perfomance.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2uhu6vk.jpg

Does anyone think it is worth creating a new thread for Homeworld screen discussion? It is actually a completely different concept to the offworld goods.

I agree. Also I'm finishing a more detailed model of a heighliner now. It may be handy.

Here's a low poly 3d heighliner, it makes no impact of the perfomance.

Thanks, I can place nifs and move them around the screen, but there are a few limits:

- i can't turn them into any direction, proper positioning have to be done inside the nif file
- fading in/out only works in combination with dds files, if you want to have true fading you will have to store it somehow in the idle animation of the nif file (maybe making two of them)
- even better would be storing the whole animation inside an effect, I can play it when pressing the transport button (similar to the current stasis effect)

Does anyone think it is worth creating a new thread for Homeworld screen discussion?
I will create a new thread when releasing next hws version...

If you check the art thread, you'll see that I've made a more detailed heighleiner, so wait for me to finish it please :). If you want any animations for it, ask away.

Till now the mod is just about the limit. There is only one Question:

I took the Atreides and build a offworld Tradroute. Now i get the Sapho Juice. Is there any benefit with it for me?