Greetings to all!

George Washington is tired of being a good king, he now wants to be an Emperor and requested me to build him an empire. The problem is I am not skilled enough to do that on my own. So I thought I'd better seek help in the forums because you don't turn down such an exquisite man. Under his command there is a group of brave pioneers and hardy warriors that firmly believe in the manifest destiny of America to become a great country. They're not in New England, though. The world itself is a little different. Here are the settings:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas1.jpg

and the starting location:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas2.jpg


I think that settling in place is the best option because we don't have a clear visibility of all the tiles in the BFC and there might be extra resources to the west. Another possibility would be settling 1E and grab an extra clam, but then we'd lose the eventual extra resource in the BFC. As there is the possibility that there is not another resource in the BFC we could go for the extra food.

Regarding the techs: I'm not sure whether to start with Animal Husbandry or Mining/Bronze Working and then AH. The improved cow is a nice production tile but as everything else is a forest, we'd have an idle worker for a very long time.

The build order should be something like 2 workboats, worker, then warriors to the happy cap and settler.

What do you think? Can Mr. Washington live up to this challenge? Will he be able to get help from capable advisors or will his words be forever forgotten in the annals of the forum? Only time will tell...

Inital discussions - this post.
Round One - 4000BC-3010BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8302658&postcount=8)
Round Two - 3010BC-1570BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8306421&postcount=20)
Round Three - 1570BC - 0030AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8321117&postcount=30)
Round Four - 0030AD - 800AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8326958&postcount=37)
Round Five - 800AD - 1275AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8372448&postcount=45)

BTW, this is not intended to compete with any of the Emperor games going on. If you're hosting an Emperor game right now and feel this thread is not appropriate at the moment, PM me and I'll keep it on hold.

For me settle 1e to give 3 sea resources unless warrior reveals anything. America starts with fishing i think.

Not a fan of marathan. Epic is more my speed.

Looks like an awesome GP farm to me, an early Liberalism date suddenly became a lot easier.

Settle 1 E and crank out a workboat first. Sadly, I don't see a 3 hammer tile. :( America starts with Fishing/Agriculture, right?

Ah, Washington if he had taken the napolean route in History!

My favorite of all the leader both historical and in CIV so I will be following.

GW starts with fishing, so 1 WB and get to pop 2 then perhaps a worker.

Tech, AH then mining and go from there (BW or wheel). Looks like you got a non-forrested hill and floodplains to the west, so another mine and farm at least.

May not be a bad idea to get Emperoro Washington Mysticism early as he can shop out Stonehenge and Spam those Monuments to himself!

Without even touching the save, let alone opening it, the fogged tiles in your original "in place" BFC are:

1. Flood plains
2. Unforested plains hill
3. Forested grassland.
4. Appears to be a forested riverside grassland hill.

You can drop the flood plain tile, the unforested plains hill, and the grass forest for the clam. I'd probably go 1E and try to GP farm this particular capitol, but in place is fine too if you prefer it since you'll be able to work the seafood with another city.

Edit:

Eyeballing it, I'd go 1E ----> workboat (teching AH), improve the fish, ----> mining/bw (building a worker off the fish). Additional work boats can be chopped. You can mine the hill before BW and the likelihood it has a resource is high.

Marathon affects the timing though, so possibly a 2nd work boat would be in order...I'm not used to thinking about early game turns with reduced unit costs so a little math wouldn't hurt with starts like this to optimize the yield.

Settle in place. No need to hog all of that seafood for one city.

Settler in place is obvious. Food plus is more than enough. It seems that there's a FP and a unforest hill (Could be some resource) to the west.

Edit: you will get 2 garbage ocean tiles if settle 1E. Cram is only 1F better than FP. but can you cottage cram tile?

Upon hearing hear his wise advisors Washington has a tough call to make – where to place his house. After giving some thought into the matter, he decided he should send his people downhill to the east and build his house by the riverside. As the American people are yet to be educated, they started calling their city the house of Washington, then simply just Washington. (We'll get some ocean tiles in the BFC, but with a lighthouse and Moai even they will be useful eventually. Besides, it takes a while until we have to work those tiles.) First order of business: some fishermen requested support to start exploiting the riches of the sea and got it. Everybody, except for the presidential staff, was sent to work on the hills collecting timber to build the boats.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas3.jpg

The warriors started exploring the surrounding area and then:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas4.jpg

D'OH!!! We would have gold had we settled in place! A few turns later we meet Hammurabi and turns out he's quite close:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas5.jpg

I think I need to build a settler sooner than I expected because I think that when Hammurabi finds that gold he will try to claim it for Babylon and Axes just don't work against Bowmen. A few turns after meeting Hammi, we are greeted by Genghis Khan and they're already worst enemies. That's actually good because Genghis feels the need to be in constant war and if we can keep them busy with each other we'll have a smoother early game.

When the workboat was ready we built a worker to pasture the cows. Research was Animal Husbandry, Mining, started Bronze Working and saved. After the worker I built another workboat and started a Warrior. This is what I've explored before my Warrior was eaten by a bear:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas6.jpg



http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas7.jpg

I still don't know where Mongolia is and I hope it's to the west because it would allow us to settle all that jungle in peace. It's not very visible in the screenshot, but west of the southern mountains there are floodplains. With one city to claim the horse and the rice and another by the river all that jungle will be American.

I think the next techs should be The Wheel to connect our cities, Mysticism to claim the Horse and the Gold then Pottery. Build order should be a bunch of warriors to find Genghis and to spawnbust with a settler in between to grab the horse/silk/gold city ASAP. I have a question to the ones more experienced with spawnbusting: how many warriors would be necessary here and where would you put them to stop the barbs? I know that the area covered by each individual unit is similar to a city BFC.

In case Genghis is to the south then the whole plan has to be changed, I guess.

Have I screwed up already? Am I thinking things wrong? I appreciate all the help I can get, criticism included. Having your mistakes pointed at is a good way of learning and avoiding their repetition. Thank you all!

I think you have 2 choices right now with Mahhumari. Take him down fast with chariots or wait until you have HBR and construction.

If you go for the chariot rush (I would) settle 1 spot NE of the horses, then research the wheel and sailing. Chop out your force and take him out.

If you decide to wait, then I suggest start blocking him off before settling south.

2 W of the gold is a good city, and the loss of fresh water is off-set by GW's expansive trait.

Next 2S of the floodplain just south of the big guy.

You may need a third city on the coast.

Also you want mysticiam sooner than later here.


I do not think you should be so negative right now. The gold can be worked by another city and you have a strong GP fasm in Washington.

I have just been to pub so this may not make too much sense.

AH was needed for horses. Although with 3 sea resources I would of skipped to BW asap for whipping purposes. You did need a worker to be whipped too. Plus you wanted the second city ASAP for the gold. (You cant do everything) I dont play marthan so I dont know how good or bad you are doing. Hammy issue will be bowmen. (+50 against melee).

On the plus side you have a horse resource now so Ah will be useful. Thats before you knew Hammy was there. You have a city you can whip chariots easily.

After you have built second city I would start amassing chariots. I would use 3-1 chariots to archers. Take out his Iron and copper first and go for the capital. Spearmen would be a pain. The outer cities will fall easily after the capital. Plus the capital will normally be more resource heavy in terms of usefulness and may have buildings.

Do make sure you have enough units to take capital in 1-2 turns after DOW. Ai whipping archers is a pain.

This post has been highly edited due to drunkeness. *hick*

But would an early rush really be the best choice? I mean, it would be just me and Genghis in the continent so no tech trading. It would also put a bull's eye in my empire, wouldn't it? Do you think I would improve my empire more by taking Babylon than I would trading with them?

But would an early rush really be the best choice? I mean, it would be just me and Genghis in the continent so no tech trading. It would also put a bull's eye in my empire, wouldn't it? Do you think I would improve my empire more by taking Babylon than I would trading with them?

Hah, some American Empire. The Real Americans as a republic took what lands they wanted, Emperor Washington timid???

Seriously, so what. Kill Hammurabi, take his preistine land, out-tech the Khan and level him eventually. With all that land you should be fine, and it is marathon speed so warring has a benefit.

I only see one Ocean tile in the BFC :?

Anyways. I think you can manage to outsettle Hammy. Block him in to two or three cities and wait until you have a decent tech lead over him for the kill.

I only see one Ocean tile in the BFC :?

there are 2 ocean tiles, but one has a fish

I'll play the next round this afternoon. Regarding the rush, I think I'll do it if Genghis is to the south, otherwise I'll start blocking Hammi. We've got a nice chunk of land in that jungle and, unless there's another AI we still haven't met there, after IW it will power up our economy. Besides, Hammurabi has just founded Hindu. It would be nice if he went into missionary strategy first and shrined it for us. I never have the patience to spread the religions and farm a prophet. OTOH, Hammi tends to not build the shrine when he founds his religions...

Mad, is this what you suggested?
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

Yellow for rush, red for peace.

EDIT: Research will be finish BW, Wheel, Myst, Pottery, Writing. Does that sound right?

IT, Yeha that's pretty much it. That western city depends on a little exploring though.

That western city looks to be mostly desert, it has one floodplain but doesn't look like it has any irrigatable grassland. You could farm the floodplain and run 2 scientists with a library at 3 pop though :p

I played part of the next round. I have to go to work now and when I come back, I'll finish and post it. In case you're curious of what path I've chosen, here's a little preview:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas8.jpg

Hit babylon first and Keep producing more chariots to take city near Washington.

The president is a devout man. He longs for elaborate rituals that can keep citizens in their place. One morning he woke up with a strange fire in his eyes, claiming he had had a vision of rivers of gold flowing to the nation that held the city that gave birth to the holy men that spoke about the gods. His staff assumed he'd lost it but said nothing, for all powers were in his hand. His mind was set: forgo the building of cities next to the gold ores. Their income was pale next to his vision. Besides, the tyrant of Mesopotamia was developing weapons that would summon the fire and cast it on the American people. He also oppressed his populace and America stands for freedom above all. (The fact that George W. was a despot himself and that such weapons could not be possibly made by such a tribal country was kindly ignored by the storytellers.) So he came up with a plan: the Operation Babylonian Freedom.

With that in mind, he ordered the construction of a city next to the horses south of Washington. And, as his words were law, so was done.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas9.jpg

As the soothsayers had finally understood the magic of Bronze, they came to him asking for directions. “A device that allow my warriors to move as fast as a horse” he said. Many years and divination mushroom teas later they came up with the idea of emulating the rolling of a rock to allow cargo to be pulled by horses. And the Americans mastered the Wheel. As New York (we'd better change the name of that city because NY is supposed to be something awe inspiring and not that meh horse town) was far from the capital he wished to carry the goods by boats. Although it was a logistical breakthrough, apparently the Americans were not yet prepared to sail.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas10.jpg

So research was set to Mysticism in order to build monuments to the bravery and deeds of the best ones among them. That would make the people happy. Meanwhile, the herbalists from the palace decided to run a full scale test on the population to better test some medicine herbs, to which Washington agreed. There was moaning and teeth chattering but it made America the healthiest country in the world. He instructed the shamans to pursue something to record the tales and amounts of beef produced and focused on more important matters.


The Operation Babylonian Freedom was set to motion:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas8.jpg

Personally he led the armies straight to the capital of the tyrant and look how reckless Hammurabi was:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas13.jpg



http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas14.jpg


After that it was time to head to the border city:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas15.jpg

Here the Babylonians offered a more determined resistance, but who can overcome those who fight for their land?
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas16.jpg

Now, George Washington seriously considered burning that city to the ground because it had not enough food to grow to the glory he envisioned for his cities. However, it was the home of a type of worship of a single god and George found it really convenient: only one god and only one ruler. We shall wait and see which of these beliefs please the Americans the most and embrace it. The rivers of gold shall flow into America's coffers sooner or later!

There was still a small city on a hill standing in a challenge before America. A skilled artist immortalized the moment of the fall of their last warrior under the wheels of our chariots:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas12.jpg

BTW, no more chariots were needed than the ones we already had.


Now this is America:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas17.jpg



http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas18.jpg

I'm seriously thinking of renaming Babylon to Los Angeles, but I don't know what to call Akkad. Any suggestions?

Now, some strategic considerations that could not be decided by this scribe alone:

Genghis Khan is to the south. I think we should hurry a city to this spot to totally block him:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas19.jpg
I'm not sure if that is the best place. Perhaps on a hill. What do you think?

And two possible spots for another city:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas20.jpg
Here we have copper and gold on the BFC. Having GK as a neighbor and no way of knowing If he's already preparing for war makes the idea of postponing the metals scary. Besides, settling on the stone gives us extra hammers and hurries the production of the Pyramids, should we pursue it, which I think we could complete in Babylon, given how many forests still stand there.

Or this place:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas21.jpg
This is a much better city on the long term, there's another floodplain and some riverside grass and we can also share the cows with NY if needed be. I think this city is better than the other, but I'd like to hear what you think.

In case we decide to go after the Mids, we should hurry. There's still some cash to research both Masonry and Writing before crashing. We already lost Stonehenge and The Great Wall.

Please tell me how you think I'm doing. I appreciate criticism and suggestions for the future. Duckweed and civver_764, you were right about the starting location. I should have heard you.

1570bc!! Nice rush!!! What were you worried about!!! You took enough troops to do the job. So 4 cities, 2 of which holy cities. You have 2 cities with lots of food resources.

Horse/ copper and stone nearby too. Next step is find Mongols and set up the blocking city. You have lots of commerce resources.

Your main issue is science!!! Set the slider to 100% and tech out writing. you need libraries. You can afford to whip them. Add in a few light houses and you have at least 1-2 cities that can run specialists. You may want to build a few cottages too.

I might even consider chopping mids with the stone. Prolly in Babylon. You could even plan for a early great engineer. You do need to hook up the stone. Early GS for an academy would also be useful.

I would maintain a military force. I dont fully trust the mongols esp with their uu over the jungle.

Anyway you are looking in great shape game wise.

How did you get so many chariots that quickly? :O /envy

How did you get so many chariots that quickly? :O /envy

He has the equivalent of a military academy (that stacks multiplicatively with other :hammers: multipliers) in all of his cities from turn 0.

He has the equivalent of a military academy (that stacks multiplicatively with other :hammers: multipliers) in all of his cities from turn 0.

:rolleyes: same old mistake. When will you ever learn? The units on marathon are effectively 67% of the cost of the same units on normal when scaled for hammers and game speed. This applies to workers and missionaries as well as military units, only settlers are not affected. Plus it has to pointed out that the AI also gets the same unit cost reduction and this means whipping defending archers is especially effective giving nearly 2 archers (at 50 hammers each) for a one pop whip (90 hammers). An advantage of chariots is that the AI get less time to make these whips. Marathon is a different game from normal that requires a different appreciation of the balance between the cost of buildings and units.

Comment on game: I would build two separate cities to claim the copper and stone. Build both on the rivers for the health and long term advantage of being able to build a levee. Desert stone and desert copper tiles are not very attractive to work, you just need them inside cultural borders for the resource. I would build one city 2 tiles S of the gold and another on the desert hill tile NW of the copper. Those two cities will be useful and eventually, with chain irrigation work, a lot of tiles that would otherwise be unused.

same old mistake. When will you ever learn? The units on marathon are effectively 67% of the cost of the same units on normal when scaled for hammers and game speed. This applies to workers and missionaries as well as military units, only settlers are not affected.

:rolleyes:. And how is a 67% cost different from a 50% boost to production? This is the same thing as the kremlin "only" reducing costs 33% ----> gold/pop is still 50% more productive. Maybe it's you who needs to learn this time, or perhaps recall:

Correct, Kremlin is important for the late game Slavery strategy. And I do use many small cities which increases food efficiency for drafting and whipping. At a city size of 10 each food is worth 1.5 hammers when used for Slavery and a Biology grassland farm can produce a food surplus of 2 (= 3 hammers). This compares with using the grassland as a workshop giving 4 hammers. However, the Kremlin +50% bonus applies to whipping ( = 4.5 hammers) and not to workshops so the farm is more productive when used with Slavery.

Previously when I used to say "heroic epic" you'd be right, although once all the :hammers: multipliers are in place it does start looking like one later in the game.

So much for old mistakes.


Plus it has to pointed out that the AI also gets the same unit cost reduction and this means whipping defending archers is especially effective giving nearly 2 archers (at 50 hammers each) for a one pop whip (90 hammers).

Sure, but none of that matters when the question was only "how did you get that many of X so early" (which is what I replied to). The unit boost and the human ability to adapt to it is *very* material. An AI that gets caught with its pants down has far less means to recover just like the human. Whatever (more easily attained) momentum the invader starts with, it carries longer.


An advantage of chariots is that the AI get less time to make these whips. Marathon is a different game from normal that requires a different appreciation of the balance between the cost of buildings and units.

Now this is quite true. Mounted actually shines a bit more on faster speeds (where other options get weaker faster than mounted does, similar to how quechas shine on monarch+ even though you can probably kill more AIs with them below), but all the tactical advantages available to that troop type are prevalent on marathon also.

The ability to strike important cities for :hammers: to the AI and cut metals quickly is a huge advantage to mounted. Its access to the sentry promotion (the only *realistic* troop type for it usually) is also a huge plus, since before your target has engineering it is no longer possible for it to attack by surprise from fog unless it's using forests for cover or its own mounted.

I find chariots to be consistently more effective than axes for rushing if you can have either quickly.

:rolleyes:. And how is a 67% cost different from a 50% boost to production? This is the same thing as the kremlin "only" reducing costs 33% ----> gold/pop is still 50% more productive. Maybe it's you who needs to learn this time, or perhaps recall:


Previously when I used to say "heroic epic" you'd be right, although once all the :hammers: multipliers are in place it does start looking like one later in the game.

So much for old mistakes.


:lol: Sorry, you still don't get it, do you? That's not the point I was making at all. Of course a 67% unit cost is equivalent to a 50% production bonus for units. Where did I say otherwise? No need to quote me back to myself to try to make your point.

That 50% production bonus is not equivalent to a military academy. It is for strictly military units but not for non military ones like workers and missionaries. A worker on marathon costs 120 hammers and not the 180 it would if scaled up from normal. At least part of the reason why it is possible to get a chariot rush off to a quick start is the cheaper workers that can be built a lot faster, accelerating the whole process of the chariot rush. Note a 50% bonus on workers is twice the trait bonus they get from Expansive especially as it applies to the food component as well as the hammer one unlike the Expansive bonus.

Later in the game, perhaps after the chariot rush has captured the holy city it is cheaper to spread a religion since missionaries only cost 80 hammers instead of the 120. That means it is a lot easier to use a religion on marathon to make a useful profit in the early game and like all small advantages in the early game they snowball into a significant late game advantage if the religious strategy is pursued.

Then when corporations come online the executives only cost 200 hammers instead of the normal price of 300. That significantly speeds up the rate of spreading corporations and makes a huge difference to the power of corporations and their relevance to the end game strategy.

So the effect is not like adding a military academy at all and it is highly misleading for you to repeatedly say so. There is a boost to the economy from reduced unit costs as well as the military.

So for your future reference if you want to describe the production differences between marathon and normal you have to completely forget your favourite analogies to military academies or half a HE or whatever, and say that all units effectively cost 67% of their normal costs, or alternatively you could say they get a production bonus of 50% for all units. That is all units except settlers, which for a good reason, retain their full cost of 300 hammers.


Sure, but none of that matters when the question was only "how did you get that many of X so early" (which is what I replied to). The unit boost and the human ability to adapt to it is *very* material. An AI that gets caught with its pants down has far less means to recover just like the human. Whatever (more easily attained) momentum the invader starts with, it carries longer.

You partially replied to "how did you get that many of X so early" and forgot about the cheaper workers which chopped the woods. Other than that I agree, the AI does not deal with mounted units well.

I'm okay with that city to block, but I also think you should probably dispatch some sort of unit right away to scout him out. Finding out whether or not he has horses would be my job #1 right now. Second priority would be to figure out exactly how soon to expect him to expand towards you. Given that there were two of you on that top section, he might have a little bit of area to work with down south. This would probably make the block (possibly combined becoming brothers in faith) an extremely good idea.

If he's all out of room already down there, then I'd assume he would come after your blocking city relatively quickly.

@civver_764:
Besides the Marathon bonuses, it was a barbaric whpping and deforestation. There are no forests left in Washington.

@UncleJJ: You're right, I'll split the stone and the copper. I like the spot for the copper city you suggested. I think I'll build the stone city just 1S of the gold to be able to work that floodplain.

@JTMac99:
I agree with you. Scout GK ASAP and block him the best way I can. I'm here suggesting that spot but it might be gone by now. Anyhow, I don't want him as my neighbor for long. I'll try to build a functional core and take him down. The problem will be if he attacks me when I'm not prepared, but that's why we have the whip, right?

Regarding the Marathon discussion:
Many of the best players claim Marathon is easier and that the AI is not very well designed to work on that speed and I assume you are right. As I don't play my games as a contest, but rather for fun, I stick with it. I have an awkward feeling when I see it takes an Axeman 40 years to travel from one side to the other of the empire, it doesn't feel right. TBH, I think Marathon goes too fast. I'd like a snail/sloth speed if there were one. I like playing each era.

I think I'll try to build the Mids in Babylon just for the Great Engineer to found Mining Inc. later. I always have trouble getting engineers so if I can secure one, that'll do. I don't feel it's a waste to have a great person sitting around for thousands of years (nevermind realism). Representation might help but I have no quarrels with researching Monarchy and going HR if it's necessary.

I'll play the next round soon. I hope I won't embarrass myself...

@civver_764:
Besides the Marathon bonuses, it was a barbaric whpping and deforestation. There are no forests left in Washington.

@UncleJJ: You're right, I'll split the stone and the copper. I like the spot for the copper city you suggested. I think I'll build the stone city just 1S of the gold to be able to work that floodplain.

@JTMac99:
I agree with you. Scout GK ASAP and block him the best way I can. I'm here suggesting that spot but it might be gone by now. Anyhow, I don't want him as my neighbor for long. I'll try to build a functional core and take him down. The problem will be if he attacks me when I'm not prepared, but that's why we have the whip, right?

Regarding the Marathon discussion:
Many of the best players claim Marathon is easier and that the AI is not very well designed to work on that speed and I assume you are right. As I don't play my games as a contest, but rather for fun, I stick with it. I have an awkward feeling when I see it takes an Axeman 40 years to travel from one side to the other of the empire, it doesn't feel right. TBH, I think Marathon goes too fast. I'd like a snail/sloth speed if there were one. I like playing each era.

I think I'll try to build the Mids in Babylon just for the Great Engineer to found Mining Inc. later. I always have trouble getting engineers so if I can secure one, that'll do. I don't feel it's a waste to have a great person sitting around for thousands of years (nevermind realism). Representation might help but I have no quarrels with researching Monarchy and going HR if it's necessary.

I'll play the next round soon. I hope I won't embarrass myself...

Slower than marathan???? :eek::eek::eek:

You'll be waiting 30-40+ turns to build a settler. It would certainly favour early strong units like quelchas, immortals and even keshiks. How would the AI cope??

The game is not intended to be real time. :lol:

The plans included settling a blocking city on the south and secure the jungle for us, but those plans didn't last long. A division of chariots was sent down there to explore and they found that a tribe with weird ideas of racial superiority had founded the city of Aryan exactly where we wanted. When the word came to the palace and orders were issued to replace all current builds in all cities for the training of new battalions of chariots. However, as our scouts progressed, they saw that it would be futile, for the groups of Mongol peasants had already passed through the barb city.
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas22.jpg

They did notice something else and that was quite interesting: there were promoted archers in Aryan. That could only mean that Genghis Khan had no access to copper. If that were true, it would mean that America would become huge really fast. Nevermind researching Masonry for the Pyramids American people, let's learn how to write so that we can scout the Mongolian lands and confirm their lack of metals. Unfortunately our excitement didn't last for long because we came across this:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas23.jpg

So they have iron. We will need something stronger than chariots if we want to assimilate their land. We had pleasant news, though. There are no horses in Mongolia! As our war plans will have to wait, let's befriend them for now. Some Jewish wanderers from Akkad managed to convert a group of Mongols in Beshbalik and Genghis Khan declared that faith official. A similar statement was made in Washington and we began to share the same faith. A while later Hinduism spread to their lands and they converted in an effort to antagonize us. We will not start a holy war just yet, let's let the Brahmans instruct our people.

Genghis has been busy. He erected a huge Lighthouse in Karakorum (over compensating?) and also started to aggressively settle toward us. Our scouts could see another interesting thing: in the extreme west of our continent there is something that appears to be coast after the ocean. If that's true, we'll be able to meet new people soon.
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas24.jpg

In 510BC the Oracle was completed. Does that mean there are no industrious civs around? At around the same time the Khan completed the Swordsmen event and, as his other melee troops don't have the drill promotion, his swordsmen have free CR1. He already has Horseback Riding (no horses or ivory, though) and Construction. He is not trading anything with us, the jerk.

Our research in the round was: Writing, Iron Working (we have iron in Washington), Sailing, Alphabet, Currency and Code of Laws. A great scientist was born in Babylon and created an academy. We have the last three techs on GK. The next techs will be Hunting (we have a source of Furs and it's cheaper than Monarchy), Masonry, Mathematics, Construction and strike Mongolia. Meanwhile, I'll whip a few courthouses and markets to let me assimilate his lands with little trauma. This is our land:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas25.jpg


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas26.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas27.jpg

And this is Mongolia:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas28.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas29.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas30.jpg


I will raze Burgundian and settle on the extreme West to see if we either meet a new civ or find islands to expand to.

The demographics:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas32.jpg

We're not number one in population now because I whipped a market in Akkad.

Cities:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/empwas31.jpg

Genghis is still far from Feudalism so we have a nice window to attack. His Great Lighthouse drew a bull's eye on his forehead. (That's true, I wasn't thinking of attacking Mongolia before :mischief:)

Looks like you've got nowhere else to expand. Start building up some Swords/Cats. That's a pretty weird looking continent. Poor GK should be having some maintenance troubles :lol:

You have about 20 units on his borders. He has no horse.

Send 2 stacks of 10 units over his borders. (Add city raider to all) Sheer numbers should win through. Do check for his stack.

I suspect you'll lose a good 10 or so units but you'll take 3-4 cities easily. The important city is the commerce city. You will need calender to work all those resources.

The other downside is all that forest!!!

Looks like you've got nowhere else to expand. Start building up some Swords/Cats. That's a pretty weird looking continent. Poor GK should be having some maintenance troubles :lol:

That's a very weird continent. It's like the map of Chile. I don't know about maintenance, though. He has the Great Lighthouse and all his cities are coastal. Don't worry about attacking. Just wait till we get to Construction! :devil:

You have about 20 units on his borders. He has no horse.

Send 2 stacks of 10 units over his borders. (Add city raider to all) Sheer numbers should win through. Do check for his stack.

I suspect you'll lose a good 10 or so units but you'll take 3-4 cities easily. The important city is the commerce city. You will need calender to work all those resources.

The other downside is all that forest!!!

They're basically Axemen and I think I would lose more than 10 of them. Besides, I have no clue of the current status of the other AIs so I wouldn't like to go to a slow war. Catapults are slow enough. :D

I have a reasonable number of workers. Most cities are already improved, so I'll have them all sent to Mongolia following my stack and the forests will be gone in a minute. Calendar is the tech right after Construction.

My priority is the GLH and the commerce city. If I take him down quick, my economy won't suffer that much for long and we'll come out of the war number one in everything.

Do you think it would be better to just attack now?

would be more interesting if you used a "peaceful" leader like gandhi and stop yourself from using "barbaric" civics like slavery and police state. i once conquered a standard map with victoria using only peace-time civics(as soon as they're available), but it was on noble and i mostly just spammed redcoats and stacked them.

They're basically Axemen and I think I would lose more than 10 of them. Besides, I have no clue of the current status of the other AIs so I wouldn't like to go to a slow war. Catapults are slow enough. :D


You are playing marathan. If he lost 3-4 cities it would cripple his economy. You dont really need cats. The upkeep of those 20 units is killing your economy anyway.

I played on the save with the 20 units and took out his 3 most northern cities using 2 stacks. Walkover really. From here I would of gone for peace.

I meant clearing jungle in my above post.

I agree withbGumbolt in advocating a two-phase war beginning now. Send your chariots down to that unclaimed patch in the far south before you declare, so you can be ready to pounce and pillage his only improved iron.

Sorry for the delay everyone.

I played this round on Friday evening and I can't remember many details such as the techpath. The important thing is I played it before the recent discussions so I went for a catapult war. I saw him getting close to Feudalism so I whipped a bunch of cats and declared. He already had Longbows, but I guess I only saw 5 of them. There's something wrong with his programming because he kept building Axes that I was eating for breakfast, instead of LBs that would cause me a lot of trouble.

We began by a formal Declaration of War.
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

The war was easy. We only saw his army when we were trying to take Beshbalik. I made a manouver I learned here in the forums and that I particularly like: kill everybody in the city but one. Wait for him to send reinforcements and repeat. When the new troops stop coming, take the city.
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg


Meet our future Moai/Heroic Epic city:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg



When we only had his hill cities left to conquer we were met by Asoka. He's already got Paper, so we managed to get a map:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/Civ4ScreenShot0013.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg


PS. Sorry if the narration sucks, I have a lot on my mind right now.

You have a lot of cities but a very low beaker per turn. 80-100 by 1ad would of been good.

The main issue with all these cities is the upkeep. Some cities are -13-14 gold a turn. I wonder if a few of the cities should have been razed far south. You need Forbidden palace.

The Indians are 9-10 techs ahead. I would assume the other AI may be the same.

On plus side you only now face a naval assault and you have a lot of cities to cottage or for a specialist economy.

^ Yeah, probably a couple of them should have been razed. I'm not very used to go on a conquering campaign this early so I still make some mistakes with that. What I think I should do is try to farm some prophets for the shrines while beelining Democracy to cover all that grass with cottages. I settled San Francisco close to India. When its borders pop we'll start having TRs with them. At the same time whip some Corthouses and build the Forbidden Palace somewhere around Aryan.

BTW, there's something a little scary. Even after taking all the continent, I'm number two in land area :eek:. Hopefully it's someone easy to attack.

I think it's time we started talking VCs. What do you think - Conquest or Space?

Is there any interest in the rest of mr. Washington's adventures?

Yes, indeed! Please keep posting. :goodjob:

Sure! I would also like to see this game carried out.

However, I can't offer much advice as I play Monarch. Seems like getting your economy back on track should be your biggest priority at this point. I'm not sure how fast the AI's get Optics and find you on Emperor, depending on that you could or could not make it a priority to find the remaining AI's or let them find you. Not sure what is faster at this level.

Yeah keep posting man. I wanna see if you're able/how to catch up technologically.

I'll play the next round tonight. Will probably post tomorrow morning.

Took a little longer than expected, but here we are.

The economy is in shambles. We've expanded far beyond what our humble start would suggest. The Mongol threat is no more and the tyrant of Babylon was hanged. It is 800AD and we're making only 67 :science: per turn. Huge costs are crippling our inovation abilities. Is this the end of the shiny new American monarchy?

Let's look at what our efforts brought to us:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew4.jpg



Was it really worth it? Well, it might have not been, but no one will say that we are a people that sit down and wait for the doomsday to come. No, we believe in the firm hand of the state to lead us to reconstruction. First of all, we assemble our public servants, remove the bureaucrats from the offices and send them all to the jungle. We've got to make it profitable.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew5.jpg




Besides that, there's also a project of installing part of the federal bureaucracy in the city of Aryan, so that they can take care of the business south of New York, while Washington manages the north. It can't be said the idea wasn't inventive, however there are some practical difficulties. You see, Aryan is a former barbarian city. After that, it was run by the Mongols, who are not great administrators. The citizens there are not used to public projects. In fact, they don't even know where to start.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew6.jpg



The works continue and all cities nationwide are building them libraries, courthouses, markets while our dedicated workers are laying the foundations of a new thriving region of America. The situation has improved a bit, but there's still a long way to go. The priests gathered their sorcerors and, with some help of the supernatural, managed to get us statistics of the known and unknown world.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew9.jpg



The building of the Forbidden Palace is taking too damn long. Washington himself heads down to Aryan, where he makes a series of speeches to inspire the populace. He's no fool though and brings some troops along to help motivate the slaves.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew11.jpg




In the meantime, the borders of San Francisco have expanded and our traders became able to conduct business with the Indians. Our cities are no longer such a terrible burden to the federal government and a group of settlers decides to celebrate the fact by founding the city of the angels, Los Angeles as they call it. We have absolutely no idea how they could come up with such a name, it must be divine inspiration. As we speak, our science is now generating 279:science: per turn. Not good enough, but we're back on our feet. Let me show you how our land looks like at this moment:


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew15.jpg


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew14.jpg


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew16.jpg


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew17.jpg



Washington may hold all the powers in his hand, but he's also a learned man and believes all citizens should be educated and centers for the advancement of learning must be established nationwide. Universities start to be built all over America and the scientists are instructed to find a way to observe the stars and conduct studies about the universe. Astronomy is now our goal. We hear that Asoka, the Indian king is also interested in our educational system and we offer him a deal he cannot refuse and will take us closer to Astronomy.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew18.jpg



From now on, I'll report our tragedies. A powerful hurricane hit our capital and a volcano erupted near New York. Both occurrences delayed the improvement of our nation. A consensus was formed in America: our progress depends on a couple of factors: an advanced educational system, with Universities and Observatories in most of our cities; suburbs shall be the basis of our economy, towns will spring all around our major cities; a free press is fundamental for a free society, so the technology of Printing Press will follow Astronomy; America is a free country and must rule itself allowing all its citizens as much personal freedom as possible, so our government system has to be elected by everybody (that includes the women, the poor and the conquered Mongols and Babylonians, who are now proud Americans), people are free to speak what they wish, everybody must be emancipated, we believe in Free Market, no state hand - no State Property and religious freedom.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew22.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew23.jpg





Good and horrible news: we have the strongest economy of the world and we met the two last AIs. I won't say who they are, you'll see it by yourselves. One of them is the master of the other and they also have witches because they magically saw we traded with Asoka and decided we are their worst enemies. I stopped when I met them because I think now is a good time to think about victory conditions. Should we go for space with these maniacs? Asoka is going to try to get a cultural win, BTW.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew26.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew28.jpg



Our cities and statistics:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew31.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew32.jpg


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew29.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/empwas/ew30.jpg


There's still some way to go, but the economy is back on its feet and will get each time stronger. What should we do next?

Any reason why you didn't build the FP in Karakorum? It has much better production than Aryan. Also, I wouldn't have given edu to Ashoka before I had the lib race sewed up. You basically let him win it with that trade.

The only thing you can count on is that Shaka and Toku will be very backwards, so you should be able to take him out with rifles/cannon if you can get there before he get to MilSci. He does love to build units though, doesn't he? :lol: I doubt he'll leave you alone for a peaceful space win. Could you post a shot of the current tech situation?

Any reason why you didn't build the FP in Karakorum? It has much better production than Aryan. Also, I wouldn't have given edu to Ashoka before I had the lib race sewed up. You basically let him win it with that trade.

If I understand the way the FP and Versailles work, they reduce maintenance in nearby cities. That's why I built it in Aryan - more cities would be affected. Besides, Karakorum will be Moai/HE combo.
I think getting closer to Astro felt more important then. Liberalism is nice, but it's not the most important thing here. I think that adding +75% to all those cottages will pay us more.

The only thing you can count on is that Shaka and Toku will be very backwards, so you should be able to take him out with rifles/cannon if you can get there before he get to MilSci. He does love to build units though, doesn't he? :lol: I doubt he'll leave you alone for a peaceful space win. Could you post a shot of the current tech situation?

I'm not at home now, when I get there I'll post the techs.

Yeah, we'll have to attack them or be attacked, whatever comes first. Don't you think that it would be better to attack them with air support?

Yeah, we'll have to attack them or be attacked, whatever comes first. Don't you think that it would be better to attack them with air support?

Well, sure. It'd also be better to attack them with nuclear support. :lol: However, I think that, with Shaka, it's important to attack him before he gets to MilSci for grens, which seems to be his favored path (rather than rifling). It's really a question of when you can get a good military tech edge over him, since he'll be throwing 2-3 units at you for every one of your own. Cannons and rifles (and cavalry!) are one of the most potent combos in the game for overseas war, and it comes relatively early. I usually follow this up with steam/RR/combustion, which gives you naval dominance and a strong production boost. After that, it's SciMeth/communism for more production and a big economic boost, followed by physics (blimps), AL (more :hammers: and infantry), flight (upgrade them blimps!), and fascism (p-troops - my favorite unit in the game). But in this game, I think rifles/cav/cannon will be all you need. Shaka has nobody to trade with and will tech very slowly. I think you'll easily be able to take him out, and that's why I think it was a mistake to trade education to Ashoka. You don't need to speed up the global tech rate, since even with the deep hole that your economy was in you were still the tech leader. That lead would only grow as you got your economy back in shape, and especially once you got oxford up. Liberalism makes it so much easier to get to steel, especially given the chemistry bulb available with GSs. Once you had lib, then you could easily backfill since the AIs avoid it once it's taken.

EDIT: Also, do you even have open borders with Shaka/Toku? You won't get TR income from them (via astro) if you don't (and they may very well not be willing any time soon), and it looks like you already had TRs with Ashoka pre-astro, so what did astro get you that was so important?

As promised, here is the tech screen:
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww309/rafawalt/Civ4ScreenShot0007-2.jpg



EDIT: Also, do you even have open borders with Shaka/Toku? You won't get TR income from them (via astro) if you don't (and they may very well not be willing any time soon), and it looks like you already had TRs with Ashoka pre-astro, so what did astro get you that was so important?

I don't have open borders with them. Toku is, well, Toku and Shaka thinks I'm his worst enemy. That's easily manageable if I sell him a random tech now or when I get Astro. The most important thing of getting Astro is the Observatories. I'm sitting on a cottage ocean and I think my production will come primarily via rushbuy. I'm not a big fan of radically reshaping my land. I mean, putting a workshop over a cottage is alright, but villages and towns stay where they are.

About my ability to attack Shaka and Toku, I think that will depend on the way the game goes. Let's wait and see. I think I have such a nice land that if I wanted, I could even have a culture win while teching far enough to hold them. The problem is right now, I have to reach the cottage civics ASAP.

Does it make any sense? Or is it just blabberings of someone afraid of Shaka? What do you think?

I think that you need to research a tech that Ashoka doesn't have so you can backfill. Gunpowder, maybe? It leads to chemistry (frigates), steel (cannon, IW), which are all great trade bait. Plus, you can bulb chem, so get that GP farm humming in Karakorum. If you're Shaka's worst enemy, you WILL get DOWed. A steel navy is great protection, as well as being a great offensive weapon. My own approach is to try to maximize :hammers: after rifling. Your biggest asset is your huge potential production base. My own preference is to get the hammer economy online once RP, chem, RR, and communism are in. I really don't have much experience with a rushbuy economy, so if you go that route I'll be interested to see how you do it. First step is to be able to trade for all the stuff you need. I mean, you don't even have meditation yet so you're a long way from emancipation (which would be a huge boost to your cottages).

I decided to play a shadow game. I'll put it in spoilers in case you don't want to read it, even though there's nothing in it that you don't already know. 1210AD:


I followed a similar opening, teching AH early when Hammi showed up so close. I settled on the horses, cranked out 9 chariots, and took his capital, razing his 2nd city to the south. He had a 3rd city way down in the jungle south of the mountains, so I just pinned him there with 2 chariots. Genghis DOWed him with axes and swords, and I thought I'd look for a cheap capture when he attacked, but I spaced it out :lol: and the Mongols took the city. Meanwhile, I cranked out a couple of settlers to claim the copper/stone, furs/silver/iron, dye, and rice/banana spots, as well as the clams just south of the capital. I grabbed masonry and started building the mids, while heading down the med/PH line to get to CoL. Hammi built stonehenge early, and I added and the GLH in Babylon, which popped a priest for the hindu shrine. I got a boatload of cash when someone else built the mids, and this got me to CoL at 100% :science: to stabilize the economy. I figured I'd make friends with Genghis early, and take him out later with either swords/cats or maces. He had other ideas, however. :lol: I made a big mistake in not settling the horses south of the capital, so he put a city there, and another one south of Babylon. Then he DOWed me at pleased with no WHEOOHRN. :mad: He moved a stack of axes, swords, keshiks, and cats to my dye city and started bombarding the defenses, but then I got the mediator event and took the +1 relations boost, and just like that the war was over. :lol: Anyway, when I was ready I DOWed him, taking the 2 cities he settled behind me and Hammis old city (dye/cows), then took peace and 260:gold: (I had currency by then). Once I had maces, I took him out. I ignored the aesth/lit line, and went for paper/edu (1 bulb), and started on lib. Ashoka met me with a caraval, we opened borders, and when I was 1 turn from lib I traded him education for engineering, compass, aesthetics, and a map. This gave me the circumnav bonus :lol: and I met the 2 other AIs: Churchill, master of Toku! No Shaka :eek:, although he may be hiding in the fog. If he is, though, he must be puny. None of Churchill's or Toku's cities have Zulu names (at least, the ones I can see), so I bet he got taken out by a barb uprising very early. I traded phil to Churchill for optics and lit, and took astro from liberalism in 1200AD. I'm way ahead of these jokers, so even though I have a pile of CR3 maces, I'll probably go to space. It should be a peace of cake, since both Churchill and Ashoka are pretty easy to get along with. I'm currently researching nationalism, heading for democracy to build the SoL (should be huge with all the cities I have). I'll use the Taj to change civics to rep, FS, FR, and head for communism for SP.

If you're Shaka's worst enemy, Shaka knows you, you WILL get DOWed.
There, I fixed it for you. :D


@huerfanista:
Nice going there! :goodjob: I suppose that Churchill in my game is like Shaka in yours. BTW, lucky to have that mediator event! I think that there's no WHEOOHRN when you only know another AI. Keep reporting.

@Ignorant Teacher:

Shaka finally showed up! He's at the bottom of the tech board and score board. :lol:

You traded edu when you should of been going for liberalism!!!

Huge empire just no huge science centre or GP farm. You probably should still win this with your current science. Who knows.

You traded edu when you should of been going for liberalism!!!

Huge empire just no huge science centre or GP farm.

Yeah, I know. If I could go back, I wouldn't have traded Education. Anywho, I'm preparing a GP farm in Babylon. I'm always too late for a GP farm and the Globe Theater. Should pay more attention to them.

You probably should still win this with your current science. Who knows.
Well, not with my current science, but with the science I'll have when the cottages and hamlets become villages and towns. The bpt will double at least.

1809AD Domination:


After liberalism, I beelined rifling (feud/ guilds/ banking/ PP (trade w/Churchill)/ RP/ gunpowder/ rifling) with only 1 trade. I absolutely did NOT want to help the AI global tech rate, especially with Churchill having 2 vassals (although most of the time they were all researching the same tech :lol: ), and also Asoka (my first victim :devil: ). I also settled the NE island, with 3 cities. Once rifling was in, I turned the slider to 0 for a few turns to upgrade all of my CR3 maces and swords to rifles, then DOWed Asoka. He capped after I took his capital and was threatening a second city. I gave him Delhi back, and he quickly got to friendly. I directed his research for hte rest of the game, which effectively doubled my research rate without helping the English bloc.

Tech path after rifling was chem (trade)/ steel/ steam/ RR/ combustion. Churchill DOWed me just as I got combustion, so I upgraded some frigates to destroyers and took control of the seas for the rest of the game (nobody else got to combustion except Asoka via trade with me). I shipped some CR3 rifles and machine guns over to England and burned a couple of cities, then took peace for :gold: from Churchill. I wasn't ready for a full scale war just yet, as he had redcoats and they are a total PITA when CHA/PRO. They're even a challenge for infantry when fortified in cities.

Next stage was sci meth (Asoka)/ communism (built Kremlin)/ econ (Asoka), corp (Asoka), AL. l turned the slider to 0 for about 10 turns and upgraded a ton of rifles to infantry. I then set sail for jolly old England. :) I burned a couple more cities to the ground while teching flight, then counted a full scale invasion once I had fighters/carriers. London had the SoZ and AP, so WW was getting very bad. I took peace after taking 2 cities, then took London and burned it to the ground. Churchill capped as soon as Toku and Shaka broke away. I was killing dozens of frigates/SoL/galleons with my destroyers. In the meantime I also traded Asoka for nationalism/ constitution/ democracy and built the SoL, which really put my :science: rate in gear.

After that it was just cleanup time. Toku capped after I took 2 cities (gave them back), and I was about 1 turn from capping Shaka when I went over the domination limit. 127K points.

Ignorant Teacher, I think I'd rather have had a runaway Shaka than Churchill. He is just a total bear to fight once he gets redcoats.


Emperor was a step up for me, but it worked out pretty well. :)