Hello all. This is my first post, but I've lurked around a bit, and thanks to this place, I can play a passably decent game.
On Immortal, though, I've found myself stumped.
I can pull off an early axe, chariot and any other rush I can think of well enough. I can also hit midgame warmongering, and do a decently fine job of dismantling warmongers, and if I sit around and focus on my teching, I can somewhat keep parity as well. The problem is, doing that, I pretty much have no hope of winning.
If I warmonger, I'm a technological neanderthal. I did a game as hammurabi, and conquered Monty and Toku without much of a problem, and got along well with everyone. But I had a score of 1500 to Asoka's 2500 and Pacal's 3500! Pacal built the Broadway before I could get democracy. There was no way my outdated military full of macemen and trebs could go against Pacal's rifles.
Peacemongering wise, I rushed hatty, built a decent empire, managed to trade and tech to parity, but my military was abysmal at best. No metals, so I had a few chariots against macemen. Even had I had metals, I doubt I could have afforded building a large military, while keeping a decent tech pace.

So what am I missing here? Any sort of hints would be helpful :)

Don't try all winning conditions at once.

Either you conquer world or tech to stars...
Well, some guys on HoF first nearly conquer world than start teching towards stars, but that is master of taste.

Don't worry about score. Worry about where you are tech-wise, how you are military-wise, and how your land looks like.

If your land is good enough after an early conquest for example you can still catch up.
Use Cottages specialists, etc. Hurry for Oxford while getting a good cottage city up and running and move your capital there. Run Bureaucracy and boom, your research is through the roof hopefully :P

Make friends, but don't try to please everyone.
Get the techs you can trade, do everything to keep up tech-wise.

Once your economy is strong enough you should afford a big army.

The three B's of high level tech parity are
Bulb
Beeline
Backfill

Also, the Internet.

Thanks all.
I think I'm most worried about runaways. It seems that while I deal with a few AI's, there always seems to be some that just keep going, fast.
So while pursuing a warmongering strategy, I not only fail to keep parity, but I'm fighting against not only someone who has better units, but more of them.
I'll admit I'm not a strong bulber though.

When it comes to wars you always want to declare for a purpose greater than "he's next to me". If the AI next to you has mediocore land, is not a threat, then don't bother early on. As you get higher in difficulty wars need to be quick. Long wars sap your research and are counterproductive.

If an AI is running away from the pack then it is up to you to bring them back down. Bribe other strong AI's to war with them. Focus espionage and steal their tech lead. Commonly though it comes down to you are just going to have to butt heads with them. Cannons are very good up to rifles and with superior production still remotely feasible against infantry. Enough siege and any tech lead does not matter. Artilliery lasts until the end of just about every game as only gunships are capable of flanking it.

In your Pacal case if he built Broadway then he most likely neglected military techs. Rush an army, tech steel, upgrade cannons, take his shiny wonders from him. Rarely when an AI gets a large lead does it focus both military and non military techs. If an AI goes on a wonder binge then all the better for you.

Should I beeline cannons over rifles? And I'm also a huge fan of getting early assembly line.
Sometimes even get it before cannons. I don't suppose that's doing me any favors.

Should I beeline cannons over rifles?

It depends. This route can be really beneficial though. Try taking steel with Lib. Cannons will kill anything in their path if you can get them early enough.

It depends. This route can be really beneficial though. Try taking steel with Lib. Cannons will kill anything in their path if you can get them early enough.

So far I haven't had much luck going to lib if I warmonger.
It might be worth a shot though. I usually take printing press or nationalism instead.

So far I haven't had much luck going to lib if I warmonger.


Probably because you don't bulb.

The liberalism techs you can bulb are paper (1), education (2), philosophy (1), liberalism (a little over 1, bulbable without machinery).

Is it worth saving up all scientists until you can bulb as much of that tree as possible? Or should I stick to throwing up something like an academy first?
Then there's the issue that if I try to take steel via lib, I'm going to have to have machinery, as well as guilds, chemistry and gunpowder - a lot of techs way off the lib tree.

Your first GS is still normally an academy in your capital, assuming you are going to be running a bueracracy capital through the early/mid game at least. After that in addition to what Shyuhe listed you can bulb Printing Press and Chemistry on your way to opening up a steel grab. With an early NE up in a food heavy city it is doable in many games. Both PP and Chem are 2 bulb techs but I rarely sink more than one into them if I am going this route.

So 1 for academy, 1 for philo, 1 for edu, 1 for pp, and 1-2 for chem and some trading around for engineering/machinery type techs and steel from lib is very doable. Just watch your opponents as this will obviously not work in every game.

It has been a few days but I do not think you need Guilds for anything. Machinery unlocks Engineering, which unlocks Chemistry, which unlocks Steel - the only prerequisite for this is Iron Working. Just get Gunpowder via the Education middle line.

Ah, you're right. I'm certainly going to have to try getting early cannons. Seems like this way, continuing on to rifles and infantry shouldn't be a problem.

Printing Press isn't needed for a Steel beeline. That's part of it's beauty as a beeline. You can usually pick up engineering in trade shortly before/after Lib.

Whether you need to stockpile scientists for liberalism will depend a lot on your opponents and their techpath/overall situation. I find that an early philo bulb is best, as robbed of the religion AI's will often forgo it for a long time (plus it is good trade bait for feudalism/guilds/optics branch.. etc.).

In my current game (immortal/continents/Mao) I actually grabbed steel with lib without using any bulbs. I was blessed with gold in the capital and a couple real nice FP cities with 1 gold each, so I made 3 academies for a long-term space race. When I attacked a neighbor it was mace+X-bow+Pike+cannon vs. LB+knight. I actually sort of got a use out of the Chinese UU! :lol:

To give such broad advice is difficult and I'd suggest reading through some deity-level SG's or other sample games if you haven't already. Probably the best piece of advice I have to address your original question is not to war unless other expansion options are closed or you have a window of opportunity to make quick gains in just a few turns.

Printing Press isn't needed for a Steel beeline. That's part of it's beauty as a beeline. You can usually pick up engineering in trade shortly before/after Lib.

for beeline not. For bulbline yes.

Engineering needed for chemistry, chemistry is needed to get steel. Chemistry is also nice and big target for [double] bulb.

I wonder. After an academy at the start, is there any reason to settle them? Or just bulb away? So far I've erred on settling/putting up academies. I see this is a habit I need to break.

for beeline not. For bulbline yes.

Engineering needed for chemistry, chemistry is needed to get steel. Chemistry is also nice and big target for [double] bulb.

PP is NOT needed to get steel from Lib and is a big sidetrack. Engineering and Chem are needed of course but Chem is almost always better self-researched.

I wonder. After an academy at the start, is there any reason to settle them? Or just bulb away? So far I've erred on settling/putting up academies. I see this is a habit I need to break.

After an academy at the start, most immortal+ players will bulb the rest, at least until Lib. There are many exceptions and strategy variations of course, but bulbing is indispensable for making a run on Lib, especially if you want something more than Nationalism.

PP is NOT needed to get steel from Lib and is a big sidetrack. Engineering and Chem are needed of course but Chem is almost always better self-researched.

And what i write? if you want to self tech chemistry it is fine, but bulbing through is faster.
I actually usually get good trade value of press on immortal, but that just me.

Seems like philosophical is a warmonger trait :lol:

And what i write? if you want to self tech chemistry it is fine, but bulbing through is faster.


Sure if you have 4 extra GSs, go for it.

Sure if you have 4 extra GSs, go for it.

4 extra?
Max you need is one guy for press [finish manually] and two for chemistry.

Let me think one for academy, one for philo, one for education, one for lib, one for prees, two for chemistry.

I can generate seven guys if i jump to pacisfism early. If not either half tech chemistry or self tech lib [rather often for me].

If making 6 GS is so hard so i assume you generate max three? Academy, philo, education? Why to be so lazy?

4 extra?
Why to be so lazy?

Why to be so snotty?

Fine, 3 more GSs. Its still a round about way to do it if you're not PHI. You could have used one of those on Edu or even one on paper and sped up the process much more than going out of your way to get PP. If its part of your overall strategy to do so, fine, but its not faster.

It's better to spend 2 on education and 1 on chemistry than 2 on chemistry and 1 on education due to earlier universities/Oxford -- especially if you play a philosophical leader.

Nothing wrong with lightbulbing PP+Chemistry. Sometimes you don't need/want the academy and it can be tricky to lightbulb liberalism. Other times you want communism to go with this and PP is required for SM (which can also be bulbed). I usually prefer grabbing communism rather than steel for early SP workshops -- but steel follows shortly. This allows shifting focus towards hammers rather than specialsts as GPP becomes more troublesome (higher costs).

Why to be so snotty?

Fine, 3 more GSs. Its still a round about way to do it if you're not PHI. You could have used one of those on Edu or even one on paper and sped up the process much more than going out of your way to get PP. If its part of your overall strategy to do so, fine, but its not faster.

2nd on education and paper are overbulbs you loose good deal of beakers by doing so.

Just for interest why you hate press that much? No love for Cottages!!? Actually having one sided printing press for 15-20 turns with cottaged empire can be quite beneficial...

It's better to spend 2 on education and 1 on chemistry than 2 on chemistry and 1 on education due to earlier universities/Oxford -- especially if you play a philosophical leader.

My point exactly.

Nothing wrong with lightbulbing PP+Chemistry. Sometimes you don't need/want the academy and it can be tricky to lightbulb liberalism. Other times you want communism to go with this and PP is required for SM (which can also be bulbed). I usually prefer grabbing communism rather than steel for early SP workshops -- but steel follows shortly. This allows shifting focus towards hammers rather than specialsts as GPP becomes more troublesome (higher costs).

Like I said, the PP route can work well if you have other stuff in mind. The OP had never heard of Libbing steel and I was helping to explain it as simply as possible.

2nd on education and paper are overbulbs you loose good deal of beakers by doing so.

Yeah, and so is double bulbing Chem. With an economically strapped empire double-bulbing Edu can be very helpful despite it being a slight overbulb.

Just for interest why you hate press that much? No love for Cottages!!? Actually having one sided printing press for 15-20 turns with cottaged empire can be quite beneficial...

I dont hate PP and it can be very helpful with a cottaged empire. I still typically get it long before most AIs on immortal and rarely trade it away. However, without a PHI leader, how often do you find yourself with a fully cottaged empire AND 7+ GSs? If the answer is "often," great, you should have no problem with Deity.

I dont hate PP and it can be very helpful with a cottaged empire. I still typically get it long before most AIs on immortal and rarely trade it away. However, without a PHI leader, how often do you find yourself with a fully cottaged empire AND 7+ GSs? If the answer is "often," great, you should have no problem with Deity.

Marble + spiritual might get you that by 1000 AD on a map with lots of food. Even then, I don't know how well cottaged the empire would be. Frankly, if I were going to bulb through steel, I'd prefer farms/mines to whip out an army of cannons + drafted filler troops.

Honestly we are so far from original topic...

As far as as seven six or any other number of GS goes. The real question is date actually not person. With marble and lots of food in one city i can pull 6-7 By 1000AD [in forum games i pulled something like pre 800AD and pre 1000AD with later featuring low chance GArtist which i do not include in count] with no problem. Although guy making academy is probably born elsewhere in some early fishing village. Overall i rarely have great persons coming out from more than two cities ever.

As far as double bulbs go... Yes, doubling education is better. I guess mine habbit to double on chemistry goes from running unpure GP farms. Than you try get 7 guys at 90odds one will nearly ceratinly be non GS, so my thinking line probably remained as if i get them all GS nice i bulb. If one misses i tech remaining part of Chemistry for minor problem in planning. This is very probably non optimal, so i will try doing other way which is most likely better.

As far as cottages+ cannons... Depends on plans if plan is to win with canons when yes, i will happily plow remaining cottages in farms and workshops.
If i only need to swallow few neighbours i might want to do something like two city war [making cannons in HE and drafting in globe with maybe one wave of whips or drafts in other cities] while others build universities/obesrvatories and so on...

AI need a lot of time to get something really resistant to cannons [except mass flanking army but that can be predicted]. Although two city war might also be heavily suboptimal as getting more [potentially already cottaged] land earlier definitely speed teching.

Hopefully i picked few good things from this discussion.

I'm starting to think that maybe going all the way to steel via lib might be a bit ambitious :p

As far as cottages+ cannons... Depends on plans if plan is to win with canons when yes, i will happily plow remaining cottages in farms and workshops.


I was thinking more along the lines of teching PP after Libbing steel and keeping the cottages captured from the AI.

I'm starting to think that maybe going all the way to steel via lib might be a bit ambitious :p

Ambitious, yes. Impossible, far from it.

Interesting. Are 7 GS for bulb good to keep you afloat on tech race? 7 is usually the total number of GPs I can produce in the entire game most of time. In a trade friendly environment, too many bulbs are simply just waste.

Well in a few games with philosophical leaders I've managed to pull the requisite number of GS's for said Lib gamble while the AI's are still fumbling around with CS and CoL on Immortal difficulty. I wouldn't say this is a friendly tech environment plan, but rather a jump out to a huge lead early and stomp on the world plan. I've never survived long enough on Deity to test it out there though ;)

With non Philo leaders it's a bit less attractive but can still allow you to run over 2-3 slower teching AI's.

yes, more or less enough to gain enough lead. Once i move out of pacifism and switch NE city towards less extrem scientist route GP rate drops dramatically. So i gain only few more after series of bulbing.

edit: honestly 7 bulbs are probably to much. That calculation included academy and one optional bulb. So most likely5.

Is pacifism a good move for a semi-broke warmongering nation? Assuming I'm recovering from war, got macemen abound, and planned to move up to something, such as maybe cannons.

A bit worried the starts here require me to stay put for the early parts of the game.

Many times the best way to take over the world is to bide your time and wait until you have a large window with the newest unit. On immortal the AI tends to get Machinery/Engineering before I consider trying to tech them. As such you will be fighting at tech pairty with maces/trebs versus maces/longbows/castles. Not my idea of fun.

Now if we beeline a later game tech like steel, military tradition, or rifling while the AI is busy elsewhere via bribes or good fortune suddenly we have cannons/maces versus the same junk as before. The higher up you go in difficulty the shorter and more decisive the wars have to be to stay competitive.

Early game wars have their places as does the biding your time strategy. It is all about evaluating the situation and deciding the best course of action. There is no one strategy fits all even in warmongering.

It's just that the AI's going culture tend to start doing that at about the time I'd get cannons. That'd sort of pick my target for me.
Plus I've nothing against throwing tons of rocks against castle walls :p

The three B's of high level tech parity are
Bulb
Beeline
Backfill

Also, the Internet.

What about Bespionage?

I find that Spies are a great way to climb back up the tech ladder.

yes, more or less enough to gain enough lead. Once i move out of pacifism and switch NE city towards less extrem scientist route GP rate drops dramatically. So i gain only few more after series of bulbing.

edit: honestly 7 bulbs are probably to much. That calculation included academy and one optional bulb. So most likely5.

[I play Normal speed/Standard size]
If I bulb, I probably bulb Philosophy (especially if I can get it first) and part way of Education. Anything before these I find a waste. Sure paper can be nice, but it's a waste of many of the bulbed beakers (unless these carry over but in my experience they don't).
I usually want at least 2, preferably 3-4 cities with an Academy.
Later I might bulb a bit of some techs, but when a bulb only save me 2 turns it feels so icky :P
Then I'll probably get more by using them for Golden Ages.

In my latest game as Elizabeth, I got 4 scientists which I used for acadamies, then I got 6 merchants and one priest which I settled. Late game I got 2 great engineers and more merchants and some priests which I used for golden ages.

Alright, did a bit of a test game. I did get liberalism with a less than ideal GP farm (mixed stock (got two great prophets) +not all that much food).
But going to steel? no way. I wasn't even close to being able to get chemistry. Closest I got was gunpowder+printing press done and lost lib by 15 turns. Chemistry with a better gp farm I see as being a rather realistic goal though.

Not entirely sure if I can pull off a pre-lib post-rush war though.

One tech that I like to get with Liberalism is Astronomy.

Would astronomy help me kill people faster though?
Seems like it'd be difficult to get a fighting edge via that route.

Alright, did a bit of a test game. I did get liberalism with a less than ideal GP farm (mixed stock (got two great prophets) +not all that much food).
But going to steel? no way. I wasn't even close to being able to get chemistry. Closest I got was gunpowder+printing press done and lost lib by 15 turns. Chemistry with a better gp farm I see as being a rather realistic goal though.

Not entirely sure if I can pull off a pre-lib post-rush war though.

Don't be discouraged, its totally possible. I think you identified your problem: a less-than-ideal GP farm produced 2 GProphs. How many GSs? Did you have a compelling reason to go for early-game GProph point wonders? Again, and I know Soirana will argue with me on this, you could have skipped PP, particularly in your case b/c you were lacking GSs. Put off machinery until you can partially bulb Lib, then trade for machinery and engineering, while teching GunPowder.

It would give you an edge in research.

But going to steel? no way. I wasn't even close to being able to get chemistry. Closest I got was gunpowder+printing press done and lost lib by 15 turns. Chemistry with a better gp farm I see as being a rather realistic goal though.


It is all game dependent. Some games I can barely pull Nationalism from Lib and the very rare game I will take Assembly Line with Lib. What year did you lose Lib in this game? You can normally snag Steel very safely with Lib if it goes 1100AD or later.

Astronomy allows you to build Observatories, increasing your research rate, while simultaneously giving you an early naval edge which can be quite militaristically devastating depending on the map type. Large coastal blockades are very damaging as the AI throws all of its gallies and caravels at your galleons and soon to be frigates.

I think the point was that PP is preferred for a GS bulb to liberalism, so if you want to bulb liberalism, you have to bulb PP first.

In order to bulb Lib you just need to avoid Machinery. However in order to bulb Chemistry you have to get PP out of the way somehow. If you are light on GS's then bulbing Chem is a bad idea and it should be self researched after bulbing heavily beforehand - e.g. Philo, 1-2 Edu, 1 Lib

Cannons are basically a steam roller. You can go cannons + mace/muskets for a long time.

Here is the great scientist bulb order:
Writing (120) -
Mathematics (250) -
Scientific Method (2400)
Physics (4000)
Education (1800) 2,3
Printing Press (1600) 4
Fiber Optics (7500)
Computers (6500)
Laser (BTS) (7000)
The Wheel (60) -
Alphabet (BTS) (300) -
Philosophy (800) 1
Chemistry (1800) 5,6

(Cost) - According to reference guide, believe it is base cost or Noble cost. Can't load a game to check, but immortal should be ~2400 for the expensive techs.
-Dashes above- self research. The blank ones should not be in the way of the early bulb path. Depending on how many scientists i expect i will academy/settle the first and maybe second.

=Writing, Mathematics, The Wheel, Alphabet, Meditation (get in trade)= 810
GS 1) Bulb Philosophy

Setup Empire:
=Currency= 400 (Off the path, but usually needed)
~Music~ 600 if not spiritual (Great Artist for golden age at Bureaucracy can make this whole gambit smoother)
=Code of Laws= 350
=Civil Service= 800
=Paper= 600

Get oxford online:
GS 2) Bulb Education 1800
GS 3) Bulb Education 1800

Setup War and start setting up Steel tech:
~Drama~ Setup Draft city
=Calendar= 350 (Get in Trade)
***Get Iron Working if you haven't*** Make sure you have iron to build cannons
=Machinery= 700 (Pre-Reqs usually available in trade)

PP is in the way:
GS 4) Bulb Printing Press, Trade if needed, but mainly get out of way to bulb chemistry

Continue to fill in Steel techs:
=Guilds= 1000 (Trade hard for pre-reqs, usually first one here so self research)
=Engineering= 1000 (Get in Trade if possible, they can be stingy with it)
=Gun Powder= 1200 (Self Research)

Bulb Chemistry 1-2 times:
GS 5) Bulb Chemistry 1800
GS 6) Bulb Chemistry 1800

=Liberalism= 1400 (Self Research)
Take Steel

To get it quickly you have to trade a lot otherwise the number of prereqs for steel will delay you for too long. Along the way start drafting, building trebs, and save a little gold to upgrade a few to cannons.

Lose liberalism, no big deal. You have cannons first even if self-researching it. Go knock some heads. Usually by that point in the game liberalism only saves you 6-10 turns over researching steel directly.

^^You forgot bulbing Lib.

Don't be discouraged, its totally possible. I think you identified your problem: a less-than-ideal GP farm produced 2 GProphs. How many GSs? Did you have a compelling reason to go for early-game GProph point wonders? Again, and I know Soirana will argue with me on this, you could have skipped PP, particularly in your case b/c you were lacking GSs. Put off machinery until you can partially bulb Lib, then trade for machinery and engineering, while teching GunPowder.

Wanted to do oracle since I had marble in my BFC. I could possibly have done it in that order, bulbing PP was going to be too expensive. (I managed it, but then had no chance of hitting lib in time).

It is all game dependent. Some games I can barely pull Nationalism from Lib and the very rare game I will take Assembly Line with Lib. What year did you lose Lib in this game? You can normally snag Steel very safely with Lib if it goes 1100AD or later.

Astronomy allows you to build Observatories, increasing your research rate, while simultaneously giving you an early naval edge which can be quite militaristically devastating depending on the map type. Large coastal blockades are very damaging as the AI throws all of its gallies and caravels at your galleons and soon to be frigates.

It was a very slow tech pace game. Lib went ~1300-1400 on normal speed. High barb quantity, low food. No stellar economy sources, a lot of isolated starts. Very unusual big & small map for me.
I suppose going observatories would allow me to eventually outtech the AI, but it'd be close. The proximity to universities means that I'd have fairly little time to get them both up.


Thanks everyone though, this has all been a great help in analyzing the problems with my game.
I just spotted another aspect I'm going to have to work on - workshops. I'm never all that sure when I should start utilizing them. On lower difficulties, I frequently even got away with just cottaging+relying on hills/metal towns for production until US, then US+Assembly line = a lot of passable production across the empire. I'd like to move away to at least a few more specialized production towns.

And another question which popped up when I was figuring out a poor GP farm. I had a choice between a somewhat hilly town with lots of flood plains, no food resources. The other town had more hills, far more plains, only 1fp square, but two 5+ food resources. Basically I got a higher immediate return on the 2 food resource town (it had a bit of grasslands too), vs a town which had far less concentrated food, but quite a bit more spare food for the long term. Which of these would make a better NE town? I opted for the one with the food resources, because that allowed me to start running scientists earlier. Good or bad choice?

Wanted to do oracle since I had marble in my BFC.


On immortal you should almost always discount marble in your decision to build the oracle. Tech, rather than production, is almost always the main concern with oracle. The time it takes to tech masonry, build a quarry, and connect it with a road slows the process more than it helps. You need commerce to push your tech to a point where you can get something worthwhile for it. It may have worked this time but oracle can go very early on immortal.

I opted for the one with the food resources, because that allowed me to start running scientists earlier. Good or bad choice?

Good choice. Concentrated food means freeing up citizens to be specialists.

Generally your early game GP farm should have at least 2, preferably 3, food resources and a bunch of tiles you don't want to work otherwise. It is hard to say without seeing it, but from the sound of it the FP city should be cottages working a few hills to build infrastructure, whereas the food+hills city would be an amazing HE/military city.

If these were the only viable options I would have cottaged the FP's, and built NE in the food resource city. It can always be transitioned later to a production city grabbing IW later. After the early game the value of a GP farm does drop a bit.

Seems like I didn't do too bad then.
What's the position on extensive cottaging in Immortal? I've seen a few games around here that rely on food and workshops a lot. At most, I generally run 2 scientists, since I prefer slavery over caste, so a full SE is completely strange to me.