1738 ad

Mehmed asks to open borders. Probably wants to scout our territory. :D

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv114/j89topdown/Sengir02/OBMehmed.jpg

1742 ad

Ragnar would like us to cut off our deals with Churchill but as Rags is almost as weak as us we deny him.

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv114/j89topdown/Sengir02/RagsRequest.jpg

1746 ad

Churchill just can’t help himself any longer and declares on us. He snags a worker near Reading. We lose 2 spears in Sakae which will more than likely fall next turn.

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv114/j89topdown/Sengir02/ChurchillDeclares.jpg

1748 ad

Somehow, someway we still have Sakae. Only because we’re playing the AI. Instead of taking the city 2 of our spears were attacked in route to Sakae.

1750 ad

We’re still hanging in there. We get a GG. Not sure what would be best for us in that regard. I plan on stopping after the next GPerson in 3 turns.

1752 ad

Angle might be in peril as Churchill brings his SoD into play.

1754 ad

Gperson due next turn but so is an attack on Angle.

1756 ad

Our troops fought valiantly but Angle comes under British rule. We get a GS which gives us two. Where’s the crazy Aztec when you need him?

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv114/j89topdown/Sengir02/AngleFalls.jpg

I'll be praying along for you :D

I guess just one person praying wasn't enough!

Oh dear. It seems that we can't live on a prayer after all. It's probably too early to call a mulligan, but we should fight it out to the end, anyway.

I take it that we cannot bribe Monty into war because he's already in WHEOOH mode himself. I dunno . . . we still probably want to double bulb Education. Would a Golden Age do us enough good to justify burning a Great Scientist? Otherwise, I guess we just whip walls and units until we run out of people? I won't have a chance to look at the save until a bit later, I am afraid.

Oh, and I really liked the thought bubble for Ragnar. Was almost hoping you'd have one for Churchill. :) Well, at least we can say that we're living on the edge here.

Looks like I am up next on this sinking ship...:(
I will play tomorrow and see if I can't stop the bleeding.

Is it in our best interests to give up Reading for peace (haven't looked at the save yet) so we can focus our defenses in Rotterdam which just happens to be built on a hill?

Well, a dow was bound to happen. If Churchill wants Reading for peace I'd go along with that. Getting Monty in the war will be near impossible, especially if he's in wheoohrn. If he would be eyeing Churchill, then the game mechanics here are not very logical... I'd do the double education bulb indeed. The GG should be merged in Rotterdam I guess.
On the bright side, if this ship does sink, Sengir can make up a more doable variant for Sengir03 pretty soon! :D

As much as its been a struggle to "get into" this variant the mere fact that we aren't doing well has me wanting to try it again!! That doesn't mean that I'm advocating for that it's just wondering what we could have done differently.
Sacrificing Reading sounds decent. If we merge the GG will it give us 2 or 3 promos out of the gate?

My thoughts on the game:

- Have Reading build an airship (Churchill is not willing to talk so we can't give him the city for peace). Whip it ASAP.
- Focus our defenses in Rotterdam (try to keep Sakae as well, but not at all costs), move a couple of the northern units south as well.
- Bulb Edu immediately and get Amsterdam, The Hague and Minoan on an university after the current builds (we need techs as much as we need units).
- No idea what to do with the GG really... Supermedic in Rotterdam?

I think . . . and this is just my opinion, mind you, that the "issue" with this game is that we're essentially playing with two variants: All (or mostly) cottages, and a direct line to Future Tech. I imagine that we would be in a different position if we could choose the order in which we researched techs (like getting courthouses and markets to ease our cash woes) and military techs and whatnot. If we only were going straight to Future Tech . . . . well, we'd probably want a ton of cottages, anyway, but we could still afford one or two production cities in order to keep up a military presence. Though, I really think it's just because we've forced ourselves to tech in a very odd order.

I like Sengir's outlines. Though the Great General . . . yeah, we don't really have a "production" city in which settling him makes any sense. I suppose a Supermedic might enhance our survivability.

If we were to try this again, I would like to allow tech trading (and maybe espionage). That would allow to backfill essential techs while having little choice what to tech at each point. However, getting techs through trade might actually change the path to future tech... So after a trade future tech should be unselected an reselected explicitely to see if the path changes, as I don't know if the computer would do that automatically. Maybe only allow tech trade on completion of a tech. That also avoids a tech half way researched being unselected because of a change in research path.
With cottages only we're limited enough as it is. We've seen that by now! :)

However, we're not completely dead yet.

Well here goes nothing!

Preturn

I send some of our troops protecting Amsterdam to the southern front lines.
My reasoning is that if Monty dogpiles us we are toast anyways!
I did leave the defenders in the fort though.

I also looked at trades and found that Shaka had 19 spare gold so I gave him our marble for it...we don't really need it but we do need the gold!

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv335/sturick/Sengir2/sengir4trade.jpg

Now time to double bulb Edu...the second bulb will only use about half of the beakers from it so I look to see what the next bulb after Edu would be...its Fission.
We will eventually be able to bulb Philo or Chemistry but we require some prereqs first.

So I do the double bulb for Edu.

Hopefully Churchy will talk soon so we can beg for peace!

(1) 1758 AD

Amsterdam spear>axe
I want to build a uni here but we desperately need troops.

Rotterdam spear>axe

I whip out the airship in Reading...I will be rerouting it to Rotterdam next.

I also whip the harbors in Middleburg and Delft.

Still no talking from Churchy...his stack is approaching Rotterdam so hopefully the reinforcements will arrive soon!

(2) 1760 AD

Middleburg and Delft both start on Libraries.
They can focus strictly on science multipliers since they won't be contributing to the military front.

A spear from Reading fends off the attack of a Knight!

The stack has unfortunately moved next to Sakae which is only fortified by 4 spears.
Two options here...run the defenders away and send them to Rotterdam for a larger defense or keep them here and hope we can defeat a few horses before we die.

I choose to stand our ground!

Now I am going to make a slightly controversial decision...I am revolting to Theo!
Here is my reasoning...

We were hoping to get Confusion in our lands to avoid war with Churchy. Now that isn't an option so we might as well get two promo units since almost all of our cities are pumping out spears and axes.

Our supermedic has been created using a warrior.
I was afraid that an axe or spear would get targeted for attacks.

Please wish our defenders in Delft luck...they will need it.

(3) 1762 AD

Well to put it lightly...we got slaughterd in Sakae.
And we took losses in Reading as well.

Please talk to us Churchy!!!

Well he won't...:(

Now Reading will fall next turn and we won't have any peace bait for him!

This isn't looking good!

(4) 1764 AD

Reading is now gone...looking on the bright side it did greatly reduce our maintenance!!! Yippee!

Churchhill still won't talk and has a medium sized stack outside of Rotterdam now.

(5) 1766 AD

We lose quite a few units defending Rotterdam...but it holds.
We really have no counters for maces and they can win quite easily over our spears and don't really have problems with our axes either.

Remember the reinforcements from Amsterdam???
Yeah they are still 4 turns away!
Not having Engineering or Construction sucks!

(6) 1768 AD

We win 2 of 3 battles during the inturn...not too bad.

Churchills surviving unit is alone out in the open so I dispatch it!

Churchills stack is now regrouping in Richmond...we likely will not survive an attack from it as it is getting plenty of backup from the east!

(7) 1770 AD

Three English galleons pull up south of Grepursfory...I don't like the looks of this.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv335/sturick/Sengir2/sengir4galleons.jpg

Another mini stack has appeared near Rotterdam...lets hope our combat II spears can hold.

(8) 1772 AD

Rotterdam holds...but to give you an idea of how things went this turn.
Our supermedic had to defend!

Rotterdam is down to 2 defenders, one of which is our medic.
Grepursfory has 3 knights and 4 catapults that will easily take out the single axe defender there.

So we will lose two cities next turn and Churchill still won't talk.

I think I am officially going to call this one off.

We almost made it to Electricity gang!

Wrapup

I think that the only thing we could have done a little bit differently/better was to settle faster. We ended up waiting for copper that never came and our empire growth was stunted beyond repair. Another thing that would have helped is a map that wasn't so linear. Seriously...it is 1772 and Monty never once declared on anyone! That is unthinkable! I honestly think this variant can be accomplished (crazy I know)...the key is to make two strong friends via early religion that would allow us to hunker down and tech peacefully.

Here's the save for those who might want to view the carnage :lol:

I'll happily look at the carnage this evening, but if indeed Rotterdam and Grepursfory are lost next turn(s) we might as well call it a day!

I still highly doubt if this would have been winnable under better circumstances (and better play maybe). Mainly because I don't think there are any victory conditions we would have been able to meet... Not diplo or space because of lacking techs. Domination/conquest is out with pemanently inferior units and low production. Culture, also miss essential techs. Time maybe, although undoubtedly some AI would send a spaceship before time runs out. :)

Well we tried. Maybe we can try again a few games from now. Does anyone want to finish it out to make it official? If not I'll try to this weekend.

Hmm . . . were you officially up next, Norvin? Yeah, things look pretty grim, yet I am the kind of guy who likes to see things to the end. If nothing else, finishing the game (and by finish, I mean, play until England wipes us out--no point in making peace if he takes half of our empire) might at least provide a lesson in dealing with a superior opponent. Or, maybe not. We don't even have catapults to deal with enemy stacks.

I keep hearing mumblings about Sengir03. Is there a suggestion box, or are we leaving it up to the man himself? I wouldn't mind another race to Future Tech, but it would be nice not to have any restrictions on improvements.

@nocho: As a lurker pointed out, if we had made it to Nationalism, we could have drafted ourselves an army, especially with all the food surpluses.

Maybe we can do another map type. Has anyone ever played on highlands? I think I've seen a couple games on that type, could be rough. Could be interesting. I've also been interested in playing for an Islamic AP victory . . . but I'm surely getting ahead of myself.

Anyway, looks like you played as well as possible, sturick. But bronze age units just can't match medieval units, eh? And the amphibious landing isn't helping things, either. I've always thought our port cities were vulnerable, but it's not like we had enough units to cover everything.

@nocho: As a lurker pointed out, if we had made it to Nationalism, we could have drafted ourselves an army, especially with all the food surpluses.
True, but right now it's still 25 techs away, with lovely things like satellites to research first! With luck we'd have researched it somewhere at the beginning of the 21st century. By then we would have been overran by tanks or somebody would've launched. :)

Yeah we were getting crushed at Rotterdam even with the 40% cultural defenses and the hills.
He was fielding Cuirs and even Combat II spears were getting about 50/50 odds to win.

I almost think we would have stood a better chance against Monty with our Bourtange.

I think for Sengir3 I wouldn't mind a beeline to Future Tech attempt again.
But this time we would allow Espionage to steal worker techs and stuff like Currency and Feudalism.
Keep the No Tech Trading on as it levels the playing field.
No restrictions on improvements either.
Monarch level seems appropriate.

What does everyone think about that????

True, but right now it's still 25 techs away, with lovely things like satellites to research first! With luck we'd have researched it somewhere at the beginning of the 21st century. By then we would have been overran by tanks or somebody would've launched. :)

Well, yes, that's true. I think I meant that if we somehow got Nationalism before the end of the world, that would have been a way to get an army.

Anyway, I disagree with the tech beeline. Even with a financial civ and plenty of rivers to boost cottage output, we still wouldn't have made it to the end before time ran out, it seems. Losing out on early techs ultimately slowed our research, I think . . . . Eh, but, whatever.

If no one minds, I like to finish this one off this weekend (so I have had at least one turnset in this game).

After that I will start Sengir03, I have a few options spinning around in my head:
- One more time with feeling: Beeline future tech (again), but allow for bulbing stuff on the tree and trading/stealing for stuff on the tree (no techs off the tree). We are not allowed to click the techtree again for resetting it, though if the computer does it for us it is fine with me (otherwise it would be to hard to keep track of what to research) > Prince or Monarch
- Cottage cheese - Extra blue: Cottages only (no other improvements, except for resources; all trees must be cut down as soon as reasonably possible). > Monarch

These two are essentially remakes of Sengir02, but with one variant each, instead of two combined.
The last option is:
- The Orwellian State: 3 Continents; we are not allowed to declare war on the other continents untill we have conquered our own continent (if we are declared upon we can have a defensive war only; we can declare war on every civ with a city on our continent, but are not allowed to take any cities that are not on our continent). As soon as we have conquered our own continent, we must declare war on one continent. We may get peace again, but as soon as we do, we must declare on the other continent (so we will be at war with at least one continent all the time).
Not sure what the best setting will be for the AI, one civ per continent or one team per continent (team of 2/3 civs).... will probably need a mapmaker for this one.

A slight problem with the beeline to future tech and allowing espionage is that alpha and thus spies come rather late, about the 16th tech and after astronomy. Well, that could still be an option, but as soon as we hit alpha we might be tempted to shut off research and steal our way through the tree, as if it were sengir01...

After our harsh experiences here I think I prefer a cottage cheese variant to a beeline-to-future-tech variant.

Or indeed something completely different, like the Orwellian state. Do we have to declare immediately on the civs on our continent? Or can we do a normal build-up and then declare at some point? I understand the idea is to have permanent war going on from some point in time.

I also have been thinking about another war-heavy variant which could be dubbed "don't spark my tension!". The idea is that we would have to declare on any civ with whom we have an overlapping tile (both our and their culture present) and we cannot take peace until that situation is corrected, be it by razing the offending city or conquering the whole civ or vassaling him. A pangaea map would be best of course for maximum confrontation. It could lead to a war on many fronts, depending on where we are located on the map. The variant could be softened up by having to declare only on 1 AI at the time, but as soon as peace is back of course we'd have to take care of the other cultural trespassers.

I like the Orwellian State idea. What can I say, I'm a fan of dystopias . . . .

We could do 1 civ/team per continent, though I haven't played any "team game" settings. But, we should set it up to ensure that the other continents end up being united. An AI left to their own devices would fill up an empty continent, right? We can probably work something out. I kind of feel like it should have an Industrial Age start, but that may be unimportant . . . .

Good thinking on the IA-start, IA might be a bit late though, as we have to unite our continent first before we can get the thing really of the ground.... maybe renaissance (what ages are there anyway)?

I'm afraid that an AI left alone with a rather large continent will have problems with barbs, thats why I suggested an AI team: that will get the continent settled quicker, so less barb problems. Though that could be mitigated through a no-barb-setting as well.

I wasn't officially up Whosit. I was just offering to hit "enter" until we got our defeated message but since Sengir wants to torture himself I say "Knock yourself out buddy!" :D
For Sengir03 I'm game for whatever you guys want though if forced to vote I would vote to postpone anything cottage cheese related to Sengir04!

Good thinking on the IA-start, IA might be a bit late though, as we have to unite our continent first before we can get the thing really of the ground.... maybe renaissance (what ages are there anyway)?

I'm afraid that an AI left alone with a rather large continent will have problems with barbs, thats why I suggested an AI team: that will get the continent settled quicker, so less barb problems. Though that could be mitigated through a no-barb-setting as well.

Well, you can start in any of the "age" you get when you hit a technological milestone: Classical, Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial, Modern . . . I might have missed one or two, but you get the idea. We can turn off barbarians, too. It would facilitate rapid settlement for all involved.

For the Industrial start, you get 3 settlers, 2 workers, 3 riflemen, and two explorers. Also, 100 gold in the bank, which is good, 'cuz you'll probably be losing some fast.

Also, only three Civs have Police State as a favorite civic: Genghis Khan, Montezuma, and Shaka. All of our favorites! We should probably pick a couple of them, maybe play the third.

I've tried rolling up a couple of starts, but I am running into some problems. With custom continents set for "one for each team," I'm getting the "starting on a 1-tile island" problem for us or the AI. I don't think that the AI handles that situation terribly well. Also, a Tiny map would be appropriate; possibly a duel, but that might be too small. Also, it ends up with two roughly square continents, and a very long one north or south. Dunno how to avoid that other than trying to build one yourself, but then you've spoiled it.

If we can figure out a way around that, should be good.

Other option: We don't necessarily have to do three continents, though I understand the appeal. Even a Pangea or some other map type with a solid landmass can work. I know that the Civ IV AI is better with water-wars, but continents might still be stacking it in our advantage. I'll play around a bit more.

So I ended it, took me 34 turns.. The AI even behaved halfway competent.

Turn 1
Start whipping like mad :whip:

Turn 2
Rotterdam falls ibt. Manage to kill a cuirassir though.

Turn 3
Hah, we manage not to lose another city this turn

Turn 4
Don't even lose a unit this turn

Turn 5
End of luck; Grepursfory falls ibt.

Turn 6
Ragnar pleads his loyalty to Shaka.

Turn 7
Maastricht falls ibt.

Turn 8
We manage to kill a knight in Nijmegen

Turn 9
Nothing (apart from the regularly scheduled bloodshed of our army people and civilians)

Turn 10
Kill a knight at Minoan; Nijmegen falls ibt though.
In other, non-violent news, Electricity is in, radio in 43t

Turn 11
Kill another Cuirassier, but lose Minoan anyway. Churchill gets a GG for the effort.

Turn 12
Ragnar and Shaka join the party by declaring on us.

Turn 13
Shaka lands an army next to The Hague (yeup, quite a decent one at that)

Turn 14
Zulu's attack The Hague

Turn 15
Kill Zulu knight at The Hague but it holds; Kill an English Cuirassier, 2 maces and 2 crossbows, but Utrecht falls nonetheless (I like cities on hills though :) )

Turn 16
Kill a Caravel and a Mace (both Zulu)

Turn 17
The Hague still holds (only 1 unit left though, city has been whipped to the ground, so no reinforcements).

Turn 18
There it goes, The Hague isn't ours anymore, but Shaka's

Turn 19
Nothing but mourning about The Hague

Turn 20
Zulu's decide to land more troops; near Leiden this time

Turn 21
Kill a Zulu knight at Leiden

Turn 22
Kill 2 more knights at Leiden, which is taken by the Zulu's despite the losses.

Turn 23
Amsterdam is being bombed

Turn 24
Kill 2 WE's and 4 pikes (did I mention that I like cities on hills)
Qin and Mehmed want a piece of the action as well and sneak attack us at Middelburg.. it holds for now (And here I was afraid that it might take the AI a while to get our last islands).

Turn 25
Amsterdam is now called York (well, the English renamed New Amsterdam to New York, so I'd assume that regular Amsterdam would turn into regular York, right?)

Turn 26
Mehmed takes Middelburg

Turn 27
One city left.

Turn 28
No takers yet...

Turn 29
War horns sound once more... Monty declares on Churchy... jeez, it only took him 424 turns.

Turn 30
Maybe we should sell Delft to the highest bidder...

Turn 31
Mehmed shows up to put Delft out of it misery

Turn 32
Bourtagne falls (yeah, I kinda missed that we still had units over there).
Our last proud East Indiamen sinks to the bottom of the ocean). We manage to kill an ottoman cuirassier and WE though.

Turn 33
Only four units left at Delft. For the record, Radio will take 793 turns right now.

Turn 34
There is no turn 34, as Delft falls ibt.

That's it, the end. Conquest defeat. Our lifes in misery gratefully shortened by AI's who knew how to take advantage of the situation (and are, thanks to 3.19, halfway capable of landing troops).

Will try to get Sengir03 started sometime soon (tuesday/wednesday)

Duh, Sengir takes a set and we lose! :rolleyes::lol:;)

Good you played it out, now no nagging feelings remain about that it might have been salvageable.

Sengir03 will be the Orwell idea? Maybe you should call it Sengir1984 then... :)

I echo the playing it out sentiment. Anyone care to put forward any theories on how what we could have done differently? I know sturick mentioned earlier about expanding quicker . . . I was wondering the opposite. If we had stayed smaller and compact to keep maintenance lower with cities tightly bunched to work as many cottages as possible. Just a thought (in case we try it again someday :D)

As the sponsor of one of your inspiration games, and a player in the other, I'd have to say that I don't think they were ever meant to be combined - neither is easy, as I'm sure you've seen now.... The combination of the extremely slow expansion rate forced by the cottage cheese (I still remember how much difficulty getting the first settler out in the original game there, although we were trying to get it done against Raging Barbs) and the tech complications of the Long View path just don't seem surmountable on the difficulty you were playing on. I have the greatest respect for your attempt, though.

I did find the differences in the tech tree from my original Taking The Long View quite interesting - that was in the original unexpanded game, and the tech tree has changed quite a bit since then. I might have to play it again myself just to see how it's changed.

Anyway, I wanted to congratulate you all on your attempt. It was good to see some of the old-time games resurrected, and I hope the combination of difficulties hasn't entirely put you off the variants for good - I'd still like to see the variants tried again, albeit probably one at a time.

--Garath

Well, thanks for playing to the end, Sengir. Certainly the Dutch fought bravely.

Thanks for voicing in, Garath. Seems like an astute analysis to me.

Look forward to #3. Let's see how the details get hashed out. Y'know, I don't know if anyone has played the Future Wars scenario, but it could kind of work. It's on an Earth map with, I think, four Super Powers with well-established empires. Main problem is that it's a huge map, not great for slower computers, and it uses some alternate rules and units. But, if we could find some way to set something like that up without spoiling things too bad, could be interesting.

'Cuz the key is to get at least three relatively even powers on the map, it seems.

I've been trying out a couple of settings. Thus far it seems that the AI won't handle advanced starts as good as I'd like; besides, I don't like it all that much either.

So my plan is as follows:
Have a mapmaker create three continents, two of which hold 1 AI each, the other holds us + 3/4 opponents (so that we have something to do in the early game). I don't think the AI needs the no-barb setting in this case; it should handle the barbs nicely, should even help them out a bit (they don't need to build as many settlers, and they are going to build the units anyway).

Variant rules:
- We cannot declare upon AI's not on our continent, nor take cities not on our continent untill we have both conquered our continent completely, as well as reached the industrial age.
- Upon fullfilling both requirements we are to declare immediately upon one of the other continents, and must stay at war with at least one of them for the remainder of the game.
- Other Orwellian game elements are encouraged, but I can't think of any atm.

Leaves the following questions:
- Difficulty: Monarch or Emperor
- Map size: Standard?
- Speed: Epic
- Leaders: who do we play, and are we going to pick the two big AI's? If yes, whom are we going to play against? (I don't think we need to pick the AI's on our island, let's keep that random).

If I understand correctly, those two AIs with their continent each will be in isolation for a long time. So maybe they should be economical strong guys, fin/org comes to mind. Otherwise we'll easily roll over Toku for instance, with his gigantic empire that just reached feudalism.

Or maybe the mapmaker can do it in such a way that those two AIs can have contact but not reach each other, so they each have their continent but they could trade (continents 3 water tiles apart, maybe with their capitals relatively close to eachother so they'll surely contact after a few border pops).

Level, I'd say emperor.

Orwellian elements, hmm... :hmm: Have to get to state property asap, maybe? Everything that reaks of freedom will be forbidden, no free religion, free speech, free market. Representation, US, emancipation should be off as well. Not too limiting, but maybe for the extra flavour. And a combination of Police State, Nationhood, Slavery, State Property and Theo sounds like a darn fine Orwellian fighting machine!

I was thinking about our opponents all being the guys who like Police State, but that might not be good 'cuz we'd get happy bonuses with them (favorite civics).

Too bad that there's really no way to "oppress" our citizens, whipping aside.

Oh, and make sure that we're at war with just one, and peace with the other. I'll try to think of some more later . . . .

Quite sad, but expected ending for this grazy variant. Funny thing is that some of you suggested Emperor difficulty :D. The variants are definitely doable, but maybe not together ;)

No takers yet for the map, so I think I'm going to whip something up myself and go last in the first round. Have to work this weekend though, but I'm hoping to get it up and running on sunday at the latest.

I'll do the map if you want. Just tell me the specs again. I might need to just "lurk" this one anyway as RL isn't allowing much CIV time.
If I recall you want 3 continents with us on one with all but 2 civs. Thses other 2 get a continent of their own. I think no warmongerers either. Might I suggest HC, Zara, Darius or Gandhi.
Let me know, ok?

Would be nice if you could do that for me, I'm not that handy with the worldbuilder. I'll let you play anyway if you want to :goodjob:

You got about the gist of what I had in mind. Try to make sure the continent-owning civs can/will be pretty strong in the endgame. The leaders you suggested sound fine with me. Not too sure about the leader we should be playing. Random maybe? Or I'll just let you pick Norvin :D

Hmm, what traits might be fitting for our Civ? Organized, perhaps, to represent centralized and totalitarian management. Aggressive could suit a warmongering approach. Perhaps even Imperialistic or Expansive?

Or, we could go with Tokugawa. Ha ha. Would that be an appropriate handicap?

Oh, by the way, I think that we should make a reasonable attempt to build the Eiffel Tower. Broadcast Towers in every city is critical to ensuring that our citizens will stay "properly informed." Kind of an in-character thing, I guess.

Sengir, here's a save I messed with tonight. It might be a good idea to see if someone outside the game can give it a whirl first to see what they think. Its not the greatest but I think it will work. Please don't hesitate to tell me if you'd like it changed or a different map. Thanks, NG

Thanks for your work, Norvin. I suppose I'll have to hold off from looking at it myself, though.

It may be too late, but I thought of another civ trait that could be appropriate for us. Surprisingly, Spiritual. Just as in our foreign policy, "we have always been at war with A, we have always been at peace with B," how can we ever accept a period of anarchy when we "change" civics? We have to be able to say to our citizens: "What do you mean we've changed civics? We've never been a despotism, we've always been a Monarchy!"

Organized and Spiritual, are you saying poor Asoka was the Biggest Brother in history? :lol:;)

Organized and Spiritual, are you saying poor Asoka was the Biggest Brother in history? :lol:;)

Umm, maybe . . . ? :rolleyes:

Stalin is probably the best example, really, what with the bloody terror and enforced ideology, but this is Civilization! We can make Gandhi a vicious warmonger if we want to! Or Genghis Khan a meek and diplomatic leader.

But, yeah, that would be funny . . . you'd never suspect it of Asoka, would ya'?

I can still swap in a spiritual leader for us if you want.

I checked the map: Nice job, but a few comments: the two continents are a bit small in comparison to ours, I'm afraid we will be able to simply steamroll them because of our size. Also, the two civs are able to get to eachothers continent (there's a small diagonal bridge West of the northern peninsula of the southern island). Don't know whether that was intended or not, but thought I would point it out, don't mind either way myself. I like the idea of them having contact, should help them out a bit.

As for leader: I don't think industrious is a good fit: INGSOC was all about wasting production to keep the population poor. Organized does work of course. Other contenders are Charismatic (because of the :) of the broadcast tower) and Aggressive (though most aggression was against the population). Leaning towards Org/Agr (Hammi) because Org/Cha gives Napoleon with the Salon which isn't inline with what we want at all.
As for Spiritual: I don't think I want that, I only want it late game, so make CR a priority as well as Eiffel Tower (I think Radio should indeed be one of the priorities because of these wonders, they fit the theme pretty well.)

Good morning all. Here's a different map with Hammy as leader and larger continents for the two isolated AI.