Check out this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330045

Hurray! I changed a line of code, and behold, the AI just built a sea base!

Which line? :scan:
Btw, love the new promotion buttons. :goodjob:

Hurray! I changed a line of code, and behold, the AI just built a sea base!Cool! Looking forward to the next patch! :D

In other news: Congratulations, you did it: The AI beat me at Noble. :cry: I'm getting flashbacks to the first time I've played with BetterAI on BtS... I guess I have to be a bit more careful with my strategy now - so it seems to work rather well, so far! :)

Now, there's something else I noticed for a while ago (and remembered to mention it, because a friend told me about it, I persuaded to try out Planetfall - he felt that early barbarians in BtS are much more commonplace, plus he never played SMAC...):

1) Is it possible that - on land - mindworms are not that common, because there are a lot of sporelaunchers?
2) The early native life activity seems to be a bit lacking. Once you start polluting/caring for planet, the fungal blooms do their jobs rather nicely. But during the early exploration phase, it's possible to uncover large amounts of the maps without any hostile encounters with native life.

I mean it's not unbalanced or anything, I think it's fine... but somehow it fails to show you the menace native life is. I mean the idea is that colonists land on Chiron... and after a couple of days, they find out that they share the planet with brain-eating worms! I don't think you get much of the feeling early on - but then it may be due to the lack of interludes/wonder movies and so on. Plus, this is rather a minor thing... more of a "feel" thing, especially for first-timers who haven't played SMAC.

But it may be nice to sort of ensure that you get an early meeting with native life (specifically mind worms), could even be some sort of weakened mind worm that you can always beat or so, just to have something of an "story event"?

And about events: Do you like random events? The SMAC ones were - some at least - totally out of whack (solar flares!? asteroid impact!?)... but some minor ones might be nice, especially to convey a bit of the flavour that made SMAC so great. Plus one could integrate this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314250) for pretty SMAC-style events! :)

Cheers, LT.

1) Is it possible that - on land - mindworms are not that common, because there are a lot of sporelaunchers?

Equal numbers of mind worms and spore launchers should spawn. I suspect the problem is simply that, because all factions start close nearby, there just isn't all that much fog of war terrain for native life to spawn nearby.

I have in fact recently been thinking to place some mindworms on the map right from the start, but give everyone on all difficulty levels one or two free kills against barbarians - it's a simple XML change. That way there's no negative effect on gameplay (nobody will get killed in the first couple turns of the game), but you do get the story element.

And about events: Do you like random events?

Sure, but I don't have any inspiration for what they could be. Thus others would need to invent them. ;)

1) Is it possible that - on land - mindworms are not that common, because there are a lot of sporelaunchers?
2) The early native life activity seems to be a bit lacking. Once you start polluting/caring for planet, the fungal blooms do their jobs rather nicely. But during the early exploration phase, it's possible to uncover large amounts of the maps without any hostile encounters with native life.

Mmm, in my last game (until turn 63 IIRC) I did meet only a few sporelaunchers and a single mindworm, and spotted several IoD's on the seas around the continent. And I was scouting on a narrow-winded part with no human territory whatsoever.

And about events: Do you like random events? The SMAC ones were - some at least - totally out of whack (solar flares!? asteroid impact!?)... but some minor ones might be nice, especially to convey a bit of the flavour that made SMAC so great. Plus one could integrate this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314250) for pretty SMAC-style events! :)

The asteroid one isn't really out of whack, you know. Alpha Centauri is a binary system and I can imagine that the second star disrupts the orbits of a few extra rocks towards Alpha Centauri A on its closest approach. And eventually some of those have to hit a planet.
But talking about events, I'd say that earthquakes should be more common and disruptive on Planet because of its (in SMAC) larger size compared to Earth.
And instead of solar flares could perihelion between Alpha Centauri A and B cause more native life to appear. Barb uprising so to speak.
And it would be nice that the training of a faction's first native life pops up the leader vs apprentice text. :D
What else is possible? Refugees from oppressive factions? The breakaway from the Data Angels or Drones from the Morgans and Hive respectively as an event?
Worked Monoliths in a base fat cross doing weird things like giving a pop boom, surplus nutrients/minerals/enery or giving an extra special ability to all units within range? Alien artifacts with a field camp on them suddenly coming online, giving a boost to research and then disappear? Signals from the Nexus changing the weather pattern over most of the continent and so changing the terrain type (arid/moisture/rainy) or barring that, destroying improvements?
Here's a good one! The loss of the first rover on Planet gives the Rick (Rover) Baxter popup (Baxter piloted his rover in a native vortex warding off wave after wave of mindworms and so saving a base...), giving an extra :) to existing hologram theatres.
Cheers, LT.

The asteroid one isn't really out of whack, you know. Alpha Centauri is a binary system and I can imagine that the second star disrupts the orbits of a few extra rocks towards Alpha Centauri A on its closest approach. And eventually some of those have to hit a planet.No, no, flavour-wise, it does make sense and fits the sci-fi mood. I just don't like the impact it has on gameplay - it's totally out of your control and totally random - and can screw you over for good. I hate that, because it devalues strategy and your decisions, ditto for the flares and meteor showers destroying your satellites (IIRC).
And it would be nice that the training of a faction's first native life pops up the leader vs apprentice text. :DWell, I think it would need to be abbreviated to fit the event box - but nice idea to put in some of the interlude snippets! :goodjob:
What else is possible? ...*snip*Cool ideas, though I imagine Maniac might have different plans for the extra factions (and triggering them off the random events would change the game quite a bit, if you turn off random events).

Perhaps start an event thread? Then we could elaborate a bit on them and try to come up with BtS-style event effects and choices (I think that events with multiple choice options are more fun and engaging, because you're not just a spectator, but you can do something - and it offers sort of a "roleplay opportunity").

Cheers, LT.

Equal numbers of mind worms and spore launchers should spawn. I suspect the problem is simply that, because all factions start close nearby, there just isn't all that much fog of war terrain for native life to spawn nearby.

I have in fact recently been thinking to place some mindworms on the map right from the start, but give everyone on all difficulty levels one or two free kills against barbarians - it's a simple XML change. That way there's no negative effect on gameplay (nobody will get killed in the first couple turns of the game), but you do get the story element.


I like the idea of some starting mindworms, it fits with the idea of them being a native part of the ecosystem, prior to Planet's response to the humans.

In SMAC there was always a chance when entering fungus (outside of your territory) that a mindworm would appear. I liked this in that it made exploring Planet more dangerous than exploring Earth, and it makes the fungus more dangerous.

I just noticed that you added the ability to build greenhouses on rainy terrain, with sensible bonuses. Unfortunately, I think the changes were only to the civilopedia entry :(. I hope this was just an oversight, and not a change of heart.
I really like the idea of being able to build greenhouses everywhere, especially for the EB civic.

In SMAC there was always a chance when entering fungus (outside of your territory) that a mindworm would appear. I liked this in that it made exploring Planet more dangerous than exploring Earth, and it makes the fungus more dangerous.

The AI disagrees! ;)

I just noticed that you added the ability to build greenhouses on rainy terrain

I didn't.
If you want plots with a 3+ nutrient yield, you'll need farms and condensers.

The AI disagrees! ;)

I didn't.
If you want plots with a 3+ nutrient yield, you'll need farms and condensers.

You're saying the AI can't deal with mindworms spawning sometimes when you walk on fungus?

Then did someone else change the datalinks entry :confused:?

Minor error: The Network Node tooltip needs to be updated to match the +3 labs.

The datalinks doesn't state that greenhouses can be built on rainy terrain. Greenhouses get a nutrient penalty on greenhouses - that's to cover the case where someone would build a condenser on an adjacent plot, turning a flat moist greenhouse plot into flat rainy for instance.

Hurray! I changed a line of code, and behold, the AI just built a sea base!

I'm looking forward to see this in action. It will make the AI even harder to beat - the inclusion of Better AI is already clearly visible. They are more agressive regarding oversea expansion now and I have to deal in 2308 with a huge invasion force after foolishly refusing a tribute demand for Santiago (not even my DP with Zhakarov helped me and I'm playing without aggressive AI - I guess I will have to step down from Emperor as well). I wonder if the AI knows about the special advantages Invitros have regarding WW or if they just use them because they are the best what they have? The former would be really cool.

Again a small notice regarding promotions...the Shelf promotion is restricted to Foil units only, which makes sense from the view of flavour and realism - however, it severly limits its usefulness and in the case of the Coastal Guard, this promotion is a kind of trap - it only helps you on a kind of tile you can't enter.

I can confirm the great discrepancy between native life on land and sea. The latter gets soon infected by marauding IoDs and sealurks (see my save; it shows BTW also my attempt to run a green strategy with Lal), but the land stays empty - except of course someone starts to pollute the planet. The problem is reduced when playing with a low sealevel and scattered landing positions, but still existent.


Minor error: The Network Node tooltip needs to be updated to match the +3 labs.

The extra +1 comes from having the Alien Artifact ressource - this isn't displayed in the civilopedia, but the tooltip in the city screen is correct on this, if you have the ressource.

The datalinks doesn't state that greenhouses can be built on rainy terrain. Greenhouses get a nutrient penalty on greenhouses - that's to cover the case where someone would build a condenser on an adjacent plot, turning a flat moist greenhouse plot into flat rainy for instance.

Any chance of you adding the ability to build them on rainy terrain? I completely understand if you don't want to allow 3 food on a flat rainy, but what about those rocky&rainy squares. Sometimes you can have a lot of those, and if you're trying not to pollute, you may not have enough extra food to use those squares. Being able to build a greenhouse on those would be both logical and helpful for gameplay.

OK here's another information bug (I think I'm not failing to notice something this time): When I hover over the maintenance for a base with Ultraponics maintenance, the extra energy shows up in the total, but not as one of the entries for sources of maintenance. Also, the finance adviser screen shows this maintenance as a number of bases maintenance, not Ultraponics. I can tell because I have a hybrid economy, so its the only thing adding to number of bases maintenance.

Actually isn't the shelf promotion completely useless? It gives the same 10% as a "combat" promotion but only works some of the time. I'd argue it should be at least 15%, possibly 20%.

OK here's another information bug (I think I'm not failing to notice something this time): When I hover over the maintenance for a base with Ultraponics maintenance, the extra energy shows up in the total, but not as one of the entries for sources of maintenance. Also, the finance adviser screen shows this maintenance as a number of bases maintenance, not Ultraponics. I can tell because I have a hybrid economy, so its the only thing adding to number of bases maintenance.

Worked fine for me (last time I had to pay Ultraponics maintenance), so can't really think of what could be your problem. One thing though: the numbers will sometimes be incorrect for a turn when just capturing a base for instance. This will correct itself the next turn.

Actually isn't the shelf promotion completely useless? It gives the same 10% as a "combat" promotion but only works some of the time. I'd argue it should be at least 15%, possibly 20%.

I plan to remove it. It's a relic of the early days when foils got that promotion for free.

I see now that it isn't actually Ultraponics maintenance, its just 4 mystery maintenance that pops up sometimes for my relatively new cities. At least I've noticed it happening in two newish bases (ones I built). It has no description in the city screen, but it shows up as distance maintenance on the finance screen.

Random thoughts:
I've noticed that Highlander and Guerilla boni are available for Isles of the Deep. Is it possible to remove these options for non-land native life only? Or are promotions always unit type specific?
Aquaformers aren't set up to use food in their production. Is this intentional, and if so why?
I'm not sure the 20% strength bonus for ranged units at higher elevations works quite right. For one thing, when I attack a sea unit with another sea unit sitting in a base on highlands, it gets a 20% bonus (at least based on the combat odds popup). Also, units sitting on highlands seem to get a 20% bonus when defending against lowland units.

Random thoughts:
I've noticed that Highlander and Guerilla boni are available for Isles of the Deep. Is it possible to remove these options for non-land native life only?

It's certainly possible, but it would require some SDK lines of code, and considering promotions are all in flux anyway, I don't want to spend time on that yet.

Aquaformers aren't set up to use food in their production. Is this intentional, and if so why?

Why not? *shrug* ;)

I'm not sure the 20% strength bonus for ranged units at higher elevations works quite right. For one thing, when I attack a sea unit with another sea unit sitting in a base on highlands, it gets a 20% bonus (at least based on the combat odds popup). Also, units sitting on highlands seem to get a 20% bonus when defending against lowland units.

I've removed the highland bonus for sea units. It works as intended for land units though. It's for all combat, not just ranged strikes.

I'm still getting really frustrated by the fact that I can't use Stockpile energy in any of my bases except for the smallest ones. I'd really like to see it work in any base, but not produce any energy beyond the maintenance. If that's not possible, or too difficult, I'd prefer just the regular production to currency conversion of Civ4.

I'm still getting really frustrated by the fact that I can't use Stockpile energy in any of my bases except for the smallest ones. I'd really like to see it work in any base, but not produce any energy beyond the maintenance. If that's not possible, or too difficult, I'd prefer just the regular production to currency conversion of Civ4.

Is the problem that you don't have eough small bases or that you would prefer to have them working on something more important (while the bigger ones run out of tasks and unit building isn't an option) ? I'm just asking, because I never run into that problem I usually can always at least employ 1-2 of my biggest bases with that duty - and that's already a drain for me (because I need them as unit pumps). Maybe it is again an difficulty issue...?

So what could be done - I don't like the idea of allowing it everywhere and risking to run into a kind of waste, when using it. I also like it a lot more then the old currency process (so I don't like the thought of losing it completely) - it just more resonable, if I can use industrial output directly to maintain and repair things with great efficiency then a magic conversation into extra income. It also makes improving terrain and speciliazation more important - you will need some energy producing improvements and if you spezialise city in high-engery-but-low-production, you are probably allowed to use the maintenance process there. And then there is still the research process as another option - it gives you money indirectly because you can lower your research rate for the same speed of research.

I could live with keeping the maintenance process and adding the curreny one (at the old ration) again, but I don't now if that is possible.

Is the problem that you don't have eough small bases or that you would prefer to have them working on something more important (while the bigger ones run out of tasks and unit building isn't an option) ? I'm just asking, because I never run into that problem I usually can always at least employ 1-2 of my biggest bases with that duty - and that's already a drain for me (because I need them as unit pumps). Maybe it is again an difficulty issue...?


Its mostly an issue in the early game when my biggest bases have too much production to use stockpile, and my other bases wouldn't even make a dent in the total maintenance. Usually I'm trying to build infrastructure (Maintenance bay, etc.) in my small bases. Switching my big base to research and increasing my tax rate would work, except that I then don't get the doubling of the stockpile energy. I think allowing the excess to be wasted at least gives the player the option of using some big bases. I'd rather waste a few production in my base with excess, than prevent multiple small bases from improving their infrastructure.

My reasoning for not allowing Stockpile Energy in bases where you don't get the full benefit, is that I don't want to be forced to do the math myself to see if I get the full benefit of Stockpile Energy in that base.

Would it be possible to program the game to calculate any excess and put it in the energy popup?
Like (with symbols where appropriate):
+28 (energy) from (production)
3 (production) wasted.
If I'm the only one who ever has this problem, I'll learn to deal with it.

I have that problem too. I find stockpile energy to be most useful in one or two large cities while the smaller cities build infrastructure.

Some feedback with v11 and v11 Patch a):

1. (v11) It appears that the oil sea ressource can appear on trenches (see 1st picture) - IIRC, trenches were modified not to allow improvments, so ressources would be useless - or is there a special exception for them?

2. (v11) You can demand from an AI running the Terraformed civic and the Eden religion to switch to the VoP (see 1st save, just ask Zhakarov, pay the 415C and end turn). This causes anarchy for that AI in the next turn (because VoP and Terraformed cannot co-exist) and also it can take after that a quite long time until they adopt to a new civic in that column again (12 turns in my caseuntil he chosed Hybrid, after around another dozen of turns he switched to EB)

3. (v11a) Memetics and Homo Superior use again BTS placeholder icons (Divine Right and Islam)

4. (v11a) Runned into a situation, where Lal offered me to adopt Democracy, I accepted, but was send into anarchy the next turn (see 2nd save, just end turn and accept his switch demand)

5. (v11a) The same save also provides an instance of native life on sea appearing on a spot I considered save. Base has no fungal bloom protection yet, PA is at -2 - but there is just no adjacent fungus. Also the native life doesn't wandered in, I checked the world builder (see 2nd screenshot for the questionable (red dot) tile and again the second save, spawn happens after ending the turn). BTW, the exact rules when and where native life and/or new fungus/spawning spots can appear and how you can prevent it (culture, local/overall PA, cleaing out fungus, running Terraformed) would be perhaps worth a condensed help text as well - I often get confused myself, when things like that happen.

I will later post a more detailed AAR on my new game with 11a), as I stepped down to Chieftain difficulty doing a Terrafromer strategy, to see how dangerous native life is on low levels.

3. (v11a) Memetics and Homo Superior use again BTS placeholder icons (Divine Right and Islam)

Things like that happen when the buttons weren't positioned *just* right in de fonts file.

Things like that happen when the buttons weren't positioned *just* right in de fonts file.Nope - pre-founding, the triggering tech actually uses a different button than normal (take a look into the Civ4ReligionInfos.xml), so to get the "proper" icon, you need to take the normal tech button and need to paste the religion symbol over it and save it as a separate button (and enter it into the XML).

I guess this hasn't happened, because the Memetics icon isn't the final one (still one of the old icons, not "rubinized"), so Maniac couldn't be bothered to put the religion icon on a temporary tech button.

As comparison, see the Edenism/Terraforming tech - this one looks correctly, because it has the extra entry - and the tech button is in the new style.

Cheers, LT.

1. IIRC, trenches were modified not to allow improvments

YRI (You recall incorrectly). It's just windmills, kelp and fungus that's not allowed.

2. (v11) You can demand from an AI running the Terraformed civic and the Eden religion to switch to the VoP (see 1st save, just ask Zhakarov, pay the 415C and end turn). This causes anarchy for that AI in the next turn (because VoP and Terraformed cannot co-exist) and also it can take after that a quite long time until they adopt to a new civic in that column again (12 turns in my caseuntil he chosed Hybrid, after around another dozen of turns he switched to EB)

I don't see a problem here. Makes religious proselytism more worth it.

3. (v11a) Memetics and Homo Superior use again BTS placeholder icons (Divine Right and Islam)

What Lord Tirian said. Make me a Memetics button using the Genetics theme colour, and I'll add the religious icon to it. ;)

4. (v11a) Runned into a situation, where Lal offered me to adopt Democracy, I accepted, but was send into anarchy the next turn (see 2nd save, just end turn and accept his switch demand)

I have not yet coded that accepting civic/religion switching demands doesn't cause anarchy, in case that's causing confusion.

5.

I fiddled a bit with the plot's spawnValues. Should hopefully no longer happen. The spawning was caused by the plot with two aquaformers on it, for the record.

The mobile infantry could use some changes to the tooltip and datalinks. If I've observed correctly, it has 3 movement, not 1.

So lately I've been getting my neighbors' fungal blooms :(. I have positive planet values for my bases, so I know they're not mine. Its on fungus squares in my territory that would be just outside the big fat cross of my opponents' bases. Would it be possible to fix this?

In a separate issue, I noticed that I can't attack sea bases with my naval forces, at least not when there's an infantry unit stationed inside. Was this intentional?

So lately I've been getting my neighbors' fungal blooms :(. I have positive planet values for my bases, so I know they're not mine. Its on fungus squares in my territory that would be just outside the big fat cross of my opponents' bases. Would it be possible to fix this?

Cross-border ecological issues are intended, not a bug or oversight. If your Psi Potential is high enough to allow native life capture, place three or four Empath Flame/Plasma Throwers near the usual spawning spot and say "Thank you neighbour".
If you can't capture native life, remove the fungus near the borders. If there's still fungus in your neighbour's territory and 'his' fungal bloom spawns streaming in your territory, you could ask him to switch to Terraformed so the fungus gets cleared automatically, or sign open borders to assist in the native life flaming, or place bunkers near the borders, or declare war on him to solve the ecological damage yourself. You have lots of options at your disposal.

In a separate issue, I noticed that I can't attack sea bases with my naval forces, at least not when there's an infantry unit stationed inside. Was this intentional?

Nope. I'll check it out.

Cross-border ecological issues are intended, not a bug or oversight. If your Psi Potential is high enough to allow native life capture, place three or four Empath Flame/Plasma Throwers near the usual spawning spot and say "Thank you neighbour".
If you can't capture native life, remove the fungus near the borders. If there's still fungus in your neighbour's territory and 'his' fungal bloom spawns streaming in your territory, you could ask him to switch to Terraformed so the fungus gets cleared automatically, or sign open borders to assist in the native life flaming, or place bunkers near the borders, or declare war on him to solve the ecological damage yourself. You have lots of options at your disposal.


OK, makes a lot of sense. Actually once I realized what was happening, I set it up so I could use it to farm native life. Should the native life always appear on my square of fungus? I thought fungal blooms were supposed to happen next to, not on, existing fungus squares.
On the native life topic, I really like the idea of native life having Psi potential maintenance. However, I think maybe it should be tweaked slightly. Perhaps your maximum native life should be equal to the total PV of all bases minus controlled native units. This way factions can't save up their good behavior. Alternatively, you could make it harder, and set the native life limit at either total positive PV or total PV*turns/100 (100 might be too high in this case), whichever is lower.

On the native life topic, I really like the idea of native life having Psi potential maintenance. However, I think maybe it should be tweaked slightly. Perhaps your maximum native life should be equal to the total PV of all bases minus controlled native units. This way factions can't save up their good behavior. Alternatively, you could make it harder, and set the native life limit at either total positive PV or total PV*turns/100 (100 might be too high in this case), whichever is lower.

I see the idea of reducing tactical gambit and making the Planet react quicker, but I fear that this would be too harsh. The overall and averaged (over the turns) Planet Attitude could work (need to multiply with some factor), but the current PV or current postive PV of all bases is too fluctuating - lose your VoP shrine or capture a polluted Terraformer base and you get in trouble in the next turn.

Also, it would work the opposite way - you could have been a bad terraformer for all your life and given enough formers you could become "clean" in one turn.

It also leaves the question how to deal with "overflow" (= you cannot support your current native life anymore or you try to exceed your limit by building more). After the changes of the last patch, the situation is easily dealt with - exceeding your current PV "income" drowns from the accumulated PSI-potential, limiting further native life capturing (building more hurts you the same way). Total accumulated PSI potential can go negative - which has no negative other impact then going deeper and deeper in debt if I understand correctly, but there is an effect (you can't get easily out of it)

But what does happen when you exceed your current (positive PV) in your proposal? If you take the current (positive) PV, most logically any exceeding would cause further eco-damage and hit your PA, which would feel rather strange for me. Of course something like deserting native units could be used...

Overall, it is a question of how the Planets Mind is interpreted - more focussed on actual behaviour or more unforegiving regarding earlier happenings? I tend to the latter, so I'm rather wary with such a drastic change.

If it should switch its 'mood' abit faster than now, but not as fast as slugwalk suggested, how about just tweaking the current system abit:
Instead of calculating the positve PV you accumulated in all your turns and divide it by the number of turns (like it is now), just take the Average Planet value for say, the last 300 turns (or insert any number of turns here).
You wouldn't get fast switches that way, but also the first 150 turns would not count anymore when you are at turn 600+ - flavorwise youcould interpret this approach that the planetmind does not forget easily, but it still forgets abit over the span of hundreds of years.

I have no clue if that's codable, though :mischief:

...flavorwise youcould interpret this approach that the planetmind does not forget easily, but it still forgets abit over the span of hundreds of years.Flavour-wise, I think it would also fit the background-story told in the interludes. During these interludes, the initial attitude towards Planet is rather ambivalent, but as the flowering culminates, there's a shift (out of desperation, but still) and Planet accepts it. Don't forget: The Planetmind needs humanity to achieve consciousness and transcendence - it's just that it is lashing out instinctively early on. So, from a flavour-POV, it makes sense that Planet offers a chance for redemption, if you make the effort to go green (or pink ;) ), even in the later game.

Simply for story-reasons, I support getting a way to get clean (but it should require you to work for it). Gameplay-wise, it could also be interesting, because of diplomacy and expansion, your choices could change - either way - and it would at least add and it would make keeping Planet on your side a more important manner (as you can't just "live off" your previously accumulated attitude for too long).

Cheers, LT.

Some day I plan to add a 'Centauri Preserve' secret project, available at Psionics and only buildable if your total PV of all bases is in the green, that sets your Planet Attitude at +1 or gives you +1 PA, whichever is most beneficial. So there would be a chance for 'redemption' for one faction, but not for everyone. There should be no way back at a certain point, if you want to have polarized eco-wars in the end game.

Some day I plan to add a 'Centauri Preserve' secret project, available at Psionics and only buildable if your total PV of all bases is in the green, that sets your Planet Attitude at +1 or gives you +1 PA, whichever is most beneficial. So there would be a chance for 'redemption' for one faction, but not for everyone. There should be no way back at a certain point, if you want to have polarized eco-wars in the end game.Generally, I like the idea (because I want the eco-wars, too), though... I see a little problem with this project (apart from getting the AI to use it correctly): It's way to easy to be snagged away by the ones with a positive planet attitude already (as these are probably the ones, who have Psionics first, as it's part of their tech line).

If such a project gets added, I think it should carry another restriction, that the current planet attitude can't be higher than 0. Of course, this may be a feature and part of the hard work to catch up with the pro-Planets before they take away your chance.

Cheers, LT.

Of course, this may be a feature and part of the hard work to catch up with the pro-Planets before they take away your chance.

Yeah, that's kinda what I had in mind. The reason to place the project at Psionics by the way would be because that tech can be reached from a non-Centauri tech path: through Cybernetics. Making it more feasible one could actually get that tech before pro-Planeteers do.

I like Shakiko's idea of basing Psi potential on a certain number of turns previous, rather than the whole game. I think that would also be better for the Planet Attitude.

On the topic of end-game eco-wars, I think there needs to be more bonuses for maintaining a high Planet Attitude late in the game. Also, I think the Hybrid forests shouldn't result in higher PV than fungus. As is, the point of getting them is just to allow you to get away with more polluting population or improvements. Instead, I think hybrid forests should provide extra resources, perhaps nutrients, but only if you have a positive PV.

Another idea for end-game eco-wars: an espionage type unit that instead of performing espionage, can take over any native life units without a fight (if you have sufficient Psi potential). This way, having fungus/hybrid forests on your borders with polluting factions can be used as weapon against them.

Yeah, that's kinda what I had in mind. The reason to place the project at Psionics by the way would be because that tech can be reached from a non-Centauri tech path: through Cybernetics. Making it more feasible one could actually get that tech before pro-Planeteers do.I wouldn't mind it coming a bit later for all (either pro- or contra-Planet). In my mind, this secret project would be a bit akin to the original Voice of the Planet secret project - and prepare the endgame for Transcendence (perhaps it could also add a bit boost to the Flowering Counter or accelerate fungus-growths planetwide?). And I think putting it at the shared end of the genetics and planet line would be rather fitting, flavour-wise, too. Plus, it would definitely spice up the endgame, which is less elaborated now.

It's one of the parts I liked about SMAC, the sudden realisation that you're sitting on an "awakening alien god" and now you scramble everything together to avoid getting wiped out by it. So that secret project would, indeed, become (for the non-Hybrids, at least) a last ditch attempt to reconcile with Planet. Of course, in my opinion, transcendence shouldn't be for pro-Planets alone, though it should be a bit easier for them.

The problem is just... I don't think Planetfall has a Transcendence victory yet! :lol:

Cheers, LT.

Regarding the endgame...I runned into a very strange situation when I was about to complete my research of Stable Neutronium. I ended the turn and got the research completed pop-up, including the announcement that the first faction to research this tech would get a Leviathan (which showed up in U.N. High Commission). But the strange thing is that a "ghost tech" (because you can't enter the datalinks when rich-clicking on it for more info, you cannot find it manually there and you cannot find it in the tech tree as well) called "Stable Neutronium 2" gets automatically selected as new research (and it appears that I have never research "Stable Neutronium", which has just vanished from the tech tree). Hovering over it advices me to click to change research...when I do this I can choose on of the other techs available or I can go on to research "Stable Neutronium 2" - looking in the tech advisor, the current research tech it is called "1. Stable Neutronium" then, however.

Or is that actually intended as a method to limit the number of Leviathans in the game (assuming that I would get another Leviathan, when researching the tech "again")?
Then it is an interesting concept, but interface-wise it is rather confusing.

Attached a save (just end turn) and a picture showing the ghost tech.

Yeah, Stable Neutronium is a repeatable 'future tech'.

Yeah, Stable Neutronium is a repeatable 'future tech'.Uh, would it be possible to somehow make that more recognisable? Either by putting all future techs into the same tier or so? Alternatively, a re-name *might* also work (but I don't want to lose the word Eudaimonia) - one could put the rather cryptic "Secrets of..." names there, to make it clear that they're some rather abstract "future techs"? But adding a little helptext or something is probably sufficient, no need to overcomplicate the matter.

Just a minor thing I noticed while I was playing Planetfall a bit on an on-and-off basis:

Some techs seem to be way more useful/powerful than others. Especially Kinematics - having dropships, drop troopers and range I just makes it a tech that gives you a huge boost in terms of military power, more so than others.

Something that's a mix of flavour and gameplay-issue: Hovertanks at Field Modulation is a bit strange, because I'm not sure whether it's right that the planeteers get something so tech-y, plus they get spore launchers at the same tech already. Could it fit a bit better at fusion (that's pretty close to field modulation and still open to the planeteers from it, so it wouldn't cut them off from military equipment), which is a bit empty right now (though the nuclear reactor is a very powerful facility, so I think it might make fusion a bit too good of a tech).

Cheers, LT.

How about make a separate future tech for future tech. "Secrets of Transcendence" or something.

Free day today, too warm to do something useful, so I was playing a game this time with Yang (a première for me) - not finished yet, I'm in MY 2293 and I'm playing it defensively right now, it's a large map on noble.

Couple of things I noticed:
- (Psych-)Whipping for production is crucial and really gets you somewhere once you have cloning vats! Very powerful, but not unbalanced, IMO. Recycling tanks are a must, of course.
- finally got a good grip on naval life - the change that natives are less likely to enter human lands is very neat - I can keep my improvements up with a reasonable former group (3 subs + 2 aquaformers) per city - but the large map seems to help with the naval incursions a bit - but then, I'm not the top eco-damager (with Yang, food is better than high production).
- Maybe its specific to the game, but I think the AI neglects the tech path to Biofuel a bit - but that's probably because the two naturally suited factions for beelining it are Miri (with her less than reliable science output) and Yang (i.e. me). On the other hand, Kinematics is really very powerful - even the AI seems to beeline for it frequently.
- Connected to this: If the AI lags behind in the tech tree, it really lags. Especially Santiago (and to a similar extent Miri) seems to suffer from that - between warmongering and being Santiago, science isn't her forté - not the first time I've seen that from them. They probably need to get more espionage somehow so they can start stealing techs instead (which I've never seen from the AI).
- In reverse: Zak is, again, pretty powerful - top in this game, but in general, he often ends up in the upper half of the scoreboard, in my experience. The AI seems to be quite good in using the leverage of a tech lead to expand quickly. His military isn't that good, but I'm worried a bit about that, because once we get more secret projects, I'm afraid that he might hog them (the projects, the techs will probably be given out once the wonders are built! :lol: ).
- I feel a bit miffed about destroyers and cruisers... I often wonder why I should build them when I can instead build a sub with the extra special ability (which gets invested into the anti-native abilities). I guess their niche is warfare against human opponents (but on noble, the AI isn't too keen on naval attacks and prefers land stacks).
- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!
- Overall feel: Nice. The Better AI has really mixed things up competition-wise and nice to see sea bases popping up occasionally (though only once the land is filled up). I think the gameplay holds up better during the later techs than before.

Cheers, LT.

- Maybe its specific to the game, but I think the AI neglects the tech path to Biofuel a bit - but that's probably because the two naturally suited factions for beelining it are Miri (with her less than reliable science output) and Yang (i.e. me). On the other hand, Kinematics is really very powerful - even the AI seems to beeline for it frequently.

The tech picking AI is really retarded. You just don't notice it in vanilla because the tech tree is so narrow. Eventually I'll probably add some tweaks where it's really necessary.

I intend to spread the current Kinematics goodies over more techs in the future. Add a new Doctrine: Air Power tech for instance.

- Connected to this: If the AI lags behind in the tech tree, it really lags. Especially Santiago (and to a similar extent Miri) seems to suffer from that - between warmongering and being Santiago, science isn't her forté - not the first time I've seen that from them. They probably need to get more espionage somehow so they can start stealing techs instead (which I've never seen from the AI).

I can't say I myself has recognized this as a trend so far. In my latest game they were by far the most powerful faction. And Pfeffersack IIRC also said recently the Hive and Spartans were usually the most powerful in his games, due to their more isolated starting positions.

- I feel a bit miffed about destroyers and cruisers... I guess their niche is warfare against human opponents

Yep.

- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!

I have long been thinking about calling it The Pet Project. Cloning cats and dogs for sale. ;) But as that's equally tongue-in-cheek, I guess you might not like it either. :mischief:

- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!

You're not the only one. If it really has to be a tongue-in-cheek, perhaps a more non-descript 'The Farm' or 'The Ranch' would be better.

- (Psych-)Whipping for production is crucial and really gets you somewhere once you have cloning vats! Very powerful, but not unbalanced, IMO. Recycling tanks are a must, of course.

Yes, absolutely. Pop rushing is considered as strong tactic in BTS and in Planetfall there is only one faction, which can use it. That does not necessarily make it unfair (as long as the others have a very unique or powerful boost as well), but IMO it is among the stronger "specials" - because it so flexible. It helps you with any economic strategy, planet or terraform.


- Connected to this: If the AI lags behind in the tech tree, it really lags. Especially Santiago (and to a similar extent Miri) seems to suffer from that - between warmongering and being Santiago, science isn't her forté - not the first time I've seen that from them. They probably need to get more espionage somehow so they can start stealing techs instead (which I've never seen from the AI).

- In reverse: Zak is, again, pretty powerful - top in this game, but in general, he often ends up in the upper half of the scoreboard, in my experience. The AI seems to be quite good in using the leverage of a tech lead to expand quickly. His military isn't that good, but I'm worried a bit about that, because once we get more secret projects, I'm afraid that he might hog them (the projects, the techs will probably be given out once the wonders are built! :lol: ).

I'm overall quite satisfied with how the different factions rank in my games. SMAC had much worse patterns of always the same factions being top and down. So I'm quite confident that we will iron out the last problems here:

Yang/Santiago: As Maniac said, my impression is that they tend to prosper in my games despite not being the tech leaders. Isolated start is one thing, though difficulty might affect this as well (they have a high leaning towards unit-building...and maybe their big armies are easier to support on Emperor?)
Morgan: The most unpredictable leader in my games - one time a powerhouse, next turn gets vassalized/conquered and ist last or second-last.
University: Usually middle or above the scoreboard, seldom 1st - but terribly dangerous. He has beat me in the current game with a Subspace Generator victory!
His strength is the amount of tech trading he is willing to do - once you have started trading with him, relations climb steadily. It works for him with other AIs as well. Maybe the planned correction of the relation bonus will help to reduce it a bit.
Looking at his Governor's office, I notice that it reduces ESP points, but also helps to find enemy spies...? :confused: Maybe the drone penalty from SMAC could help to slow him a bit.
Lal Usually middle or below. Not as strong as Zhak in tech trading, but usually excellent diplomatic standing. He might suffer a bit from the reduced impact of Great People in Planetfall, where he has his second strength (only certain types easily available in the beginning, no techs from hackers, few secret projects)
Miriam,Deidre The seem to fail most often in my games. Miriam is often diplomatically isolated (maybe she is at disadvantage with her "fitting" religion compared to Deidre...comes later, she has no research boost and constant trouble with the planet), though she manages to expand at least - so she has many bases, but with out-dated military. For Deidre I think it is just that lack of using here strength - the friendship to the planet; e.g. she must learn to expand a lot more aggressive, place bases closer...


- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!


You're not the only one. If it really has to be a tongue-in-cheek, perhaps a more non-descript 'The Farm' or 'The Ranch' would be better.

Add me to the list ;)


-----------------------


Another question regarding late game techs...what does that "evolve into fungal tower" from Transcendence do you good?

they have a high leaning towards unit-building...and maybe their big armies are easier to support on Emperor?)By the way, I was mainly talking about Santiago and Miri - I was playing Yang myself, hence no comment on him (when I see him as AI, he tends to be a production powerhouse throwing units around and making demands like... well, a crazy dictator!). I guess that Santiago suffers from me playing on Noble, as the AI will take less advantage of the extra expansion room without the handicap bonuses.
Miriam,Deidre The seem to fail most often in my games. Miriam is often diplomatically isolated (maybe she is at disadvantage with her "fitting" religion compared to Deidre...comes later, she has no research boost and constant trouble with the planet), though she manages to expand at least - so she has many bases, but with out-dated military. For Deidre I think it is just that lack of using here strength - the friendship to the planet; e.g. she must learn to expand a lot more aggressive, place bases closer... Miri tends to lag behind, tech-wise (see above), Deirdre - AI doesn't understand Hybrid, that's it. I keep seeing planet-damaging improvements in her territory, sometimes a lot, meaning she's not having synergy with her inherent bonuses. I guess once the AI grasps Hybrid better, that should remedy itself (as a human, Gaians can be pretty powerful, in my experience).

Cheers, LT.

What I've seen of AI rankings:
In my last two long games, Zack and Lal have been above average or on top. Mainly I think because in both games they've become friends early (due to tech trading and democracy I assume) and have lead everyone in techs until I've outpaced them.
Santiago and Yang did well in my first game because they had their own continents, despite their backwards technology. In my current game, Zack and Lal are doing even better, Miriam and Yang (who didn't get his own continent) are in the middle, and Santiago's on the bottom. I was impressed when Santiago beat Deidre to VoP and ran Hybrid (badly). Even more surprising was when Deidre switched to being a Terraformer (shouldn't she be prevented from making that choice?).
In both games I've made a point of making friends with Lal and Zack, and due to the parallel nature of the tech tree, trading techs with them has been the key to winning. I think my strategy now may be to just do what ever it takes to make friends with as many factions as possible and then tech trade my way to victory (I haven't played enough games to see if this strategy will always work). Is this perhaps a reason why CIV4 has a more narrow tech tree?

Add me to the list ;)Just for the record: I don't really mind tongue-in-cheek references, it's just that this one is, for my taste, too blatant. I would find it more funny/clever if you'd put something into the datalinks text like: "After the re-creation of terran animals through genetic engineering and cloning, an intrepid group of ex-Morgan geneticists took charge of the project and soon, the first interstellar McDonalds branch was opened."

Cheers, LT.

I just had my game (version 11a) freeze with some sort of graphical error, then just starting the mod would make a graphical error occur. Before this, I already played a whole game on version 11 (with and without patch a) without anything happening. Here's the save when it happened. Although it doesn't happen immediately, its hasn't taken more than a turn to occur.
225193

I just had my game (version 11a) freeze with some sort of graphical error, then just starting the mod would make a graphical error occur. Before this, I already played a whole game on version 11 (with and without patch a) without anything happening. Here's the save when it happened. Although it doesn't happen immediately, its hasn't taken more than a turn to occur.

I don't get any problem with that save. Nothing else I can do given the limited information you gave. Is the problem still occuring? Is it only with Planetfall?

Cybernetics: I feel Cybernetics between Neural Grafting and MMI is a bit strange

The reason for that placement, is that the further up the tech tree CyCon would be enabled, the more useless it would be. But I feel even now it's already pretty useless. Plus even with 10 human factions present later in development, four religions seems enough to me. So I was thinking I should remove the Consciousness religion. What do you think?

The reason for that placement, is that the further up the tech tree CyCon would be enabled, the more useless it would be. But I feel even now it's already pretty useless. Plus even with 10 human factions present later in development, four religions seems enough to me. So I was thinking I should remove the Consciousness religion. What do you think?No problems with that here, never felt any real impact from it anyway, nobody would adopt it that late - and the bonus it gave wasn't really interesting (for example the extra planet-value, GPP, influence, food are all things you can't get easily... getting extra beakers is most of the time a twiddling with the tech slider away).

Theme-wise, also fine in my opinion: I feel the other religions work better as religion. And self-improvement with tech is pretty similar to Homo Superior-theme already (or at least how I see HS). And a religion/ethos/mindset/doctrine/whatever centred around "let's plug tech into us!" doesn't sound very compelling, I can get a way better feel for the other relis.

I do wonder, though, what would then happen to the tech (and the associated unit) and Aki? Getting back a full-fledged civ (as rogue AI split off later in the game) or even some sort of cooperation or just dropped? Because I have to admit I would miss the CyCon and Aki a bit if they would be dropped completely.

Cheers, LT.

I don't get any problem with that save. Nothing else I can do given the limited information you gave. Is the problem still occuring? Is it only with Planetfall?


I've played the save and haven't been getting any problems now, so I'll stop worrying about it. Must have been an unlikely event, probably specific to my computer.

The reason for that placement, is that the further up the tech tree CyCon would be enabled, the more useless it would be. But I feel even now it's already pretty useless. Plus even with 10 human factions present later in development, four religions seems enough to me. So I was thinking I should remove the Consciousness religion. What do you think?

Indeed, delaying the Consciousness further would be badly. It already sticks out of all the religions as latest too much. Usually VoP is the first, followed by Edenism/Homo Superior (seems nearly half/half which gets discovered frist in my games), then a bit later Algaculture, much later Consciousness. All other religions became dominating in one or the other game, not so the Consciousness.

However, that does mean that I would feel good with getting rid of it. I would prefer to belance it somehow (more missionaries for the founder, higher spread chance, something connected to cyborg units - e.g. the Consciousness can spontaneously spread in a city, if there is a Cyborg unit present, say with 1/500 or 1/1000 per turn).


No problems with that here, never felt any real impact from it anyway, nobody would adopt it that late - and the bonus it gave wasn't really interesting (for example the extra planet-value, GPP, influence, food are all things you can't get easily... getting extra beakers is most of the time a twiddling with the tech slider away).

Don't forget the ESP point. It is true that Beakers and ESP are less useful that late, but that could be easily corrected by e.g. doubling the bonus. Especially extra ESP can make a difference.


I do wonder, though, what would then happen to the tech (and the associated unit) and Aki? Getting back a full-fledged civ (as rogue AI split off later in the game) or even some sort of cooperation or just dropped? Because I have to admit I would miss the CyCon and Aki a bit if they would be dropped completely.

IIRC, Aki is planned a 2nd University leader. Maybe her "special" could be starting (or exclusively developing it later) with The Consciousness religion. So this religion would only show up, if she is in the game and she would be always the founder of it.

A problem with removing the Consciousness is the gamefont, which would need to be adapted. Lord Tirian, would you be willing to copy the Ascetic Virtues/Buddhism icon over the Consciousness icon?

No problems with that here, never felt any real impact from it anyway, nobody would adopt it that late - and the bonus it gave wasn't really interesting (for example the extra planet-value, GPP, influence, food are all things you can't get easily... getting extra beakers is most of the time a twiddling with the tech slider away).

Aki can be a University leader, as Pfeffersack says.
The Consciousness could be some secret project.
I'd prefer to have them as a faction, but I can't imagine a way to make another faction starting that late interesting or make it have an impact on the game compared to the other factions. And in this particular case I prefer realism over gameplay. That is, no Consciousness in MY 2101 before the required technology hasn't been developed yet.

Indeed, delaying the Consciousness further would be badly. It already sticks out of all the religions as latest too much. Usually VoP is the first, followed by Edenism/Homo Superior (seems nearly half/half which gets discovered frist in my games), then a bit later Algaculture, much later Consciousness. All other religions became dominating in one or the other game, not so the Consciousness.If one would go towards fixing instead of removing, I think it needs to be a little more unique and some spread boosting to compete with the four big ones. Apart from the idea that cyborgs spread it, I think it would be very fitting to have some ties to other informatics buildings. For example, network nodes could increase the spread potential. Or add some sort of "temple"-building that works better if the CyCon is in the city, something like a Cybernetics Lab that works better (like giving out +1 Happiness or so) with the religion.

Cheers, LT.

Given that one of the functions of religions is to form diplomatic bonds between civs, religions is one case where less is definitely more. Five religions with only 7 to 10 civs is way too much.

Aki can be a University leader, as Pfeffersack says.
The Consciousness could be some secret project.
I'd prefer to have them as a faction, but I can't imagine a way to make another faction starting that late interesting or make it have an impact on the game compared to the other factions. And in this particular case I prefer realism over gameplay. That is, no Consciousness in MY 2101 before the required technology hasn't been developed yet.

If you prefer them as a faction, how about a take-over from within the University?
As it is now, the University seems most of the times ahead of the other factions. What if there was this danger of becoming engulfed by the University's own advanced AI's if certain security arrangements weren't met?
See it as a reset of the faction: treaties with other factions are broken, the direction/style the faction was heading to (terraforming, hybrid,...) might become obselete because the faction benefits change. Stuff like that.

Oops, missed that post the first time...
A problem with removing the Consciousness is the gamefont, which would need to be adapted. Lord Tirian, would you be willing to copy the Ascetic Virtues/Buddhism icon over the Consciousness icon?Sure, no biggie. I'll post it later.

For the hostile take-over... I have to say I can't see getting rid of Zak entirely in the middle of the game except through war. Would be weird to see a leader completely replaced in the middle of the game - especially as the leaders have a strong personality and are a part of the SMAC experience - and hence a pretty integral part of Planetfall as well. Seeing them disposed randomly sounds like it would cheapen the stories behind them.

However, I could see it as a faction you can create voluntarily after the discovery of Cybernetics. Build the Consciousness - and the base becomes its own faction (and you can choose to take over that new faction, if you wish to), similar to the way Basium comes into the game in FfH2. Only problems: Teaching the AI not to build it in its capital but rather in a border or faraway city and the implementation behind it (which sounds like a rather big thing to code).

Cheers, LT.

Would be weird to see a leader completely replaced in the middle of the game - especially as the leaders have a strong personality

And especially if you're the one playing the University. ;)

A Basium implementation indeed is the most workable. However Basium has a special mechanic which makes them fun and viable to play even in the mid- and endgame. What could that be for the Consciousness? I can think of many things for the Cult (which could also work with Basium beginnings), but not really for the Consciousness.

I don't know this Basium civ in FfH2, nor the special mechanics which supposedly makes them fun to play. But what a faction like the Consciousness seems to need if it is a midgame upstart, is an ability to convert bases to its faction if those bases met the conditions.

For the record, Basium has a chance to get angel units for free in its capital when other civs' units which follow a certain religion die in battle. So you get a nice army without immediately needing the bases and economy to build one the hard way.

The problem with giving bases of existing factions to a new faction, is find some way that doesn't feel unfair or random if the human player suddenly is on the receiving end of the base 'theft'. I don't think that's really possible.

For the record, Basium has a chance to get angel units for free in its capital when other civs' units which follow a certain religion die in battle. So you get a nice army without immediately needing the bases and economy to build one the hard way.

The problem with giving bases of existing factions to a new faction, is find some way that doesn't feel unfair or random if the human player suddenly is on the receiving end of the base 'theft'. I don't think that's really possible.

Consciousness conversion could perhaps be avoided by building a Covert Ops Center?
And of course cyborg units are a prime candidate for a similar mechanism as Basium has in Planetfall.
Hey, you could even make enemy clones join the Consciousness when defeated in battle! Those clones have the same genetic make-up, and the moment they have a technical special ability they're supposed to have MMI implants, so should be susceptible to conversion. And a Consciousness probe team could do the same in peace time.

Attached the edited gamefonts - used the latest gamefonts I made for you as a base.
Consciousness conversion could perhaps be avoided by building a Covert Ops Center?Still not a fan of that - base stealing really sounds like un-fun - plus CivIV already has a mechanic for that - culture flips. But having massive influence to trigger flips doesn't sound fitting for CyCon to me.And a Consciousness probe team could do the same in peace time.This would tread a bit on the Data Angels' shtick, no?

I think a bit part of CyCon could be the idea of "downloading" (a bit akin to BSG skinjobs ;) ), though not full fledged personality transfer (wrong tech level). Meaning defeated units should get some "bonus", this would also help with the problem a new civ has - military weakness (that's why Basium's angel-spawning makes him work).

For example, each defeated unit could add a bit to the CyCon's beakers (they gather knowledge from seeing things in action... a bit borg-like adaption) and perhaps extra GG XP (same idea). Also, the special ability limit of 2 could be increased for them to 3 - after all, everybody there is tech him/herself, increasing their versatility with extra elements.

The "get tech on base conquering" is also helping with that. These bonuses could at least get their science economy jump started and make their units a bit more resilient.

Unit-wise, make their base spawn units at a controlled rate, for example for every pop increase they get, the base spawns a drone or cyborg. Since in Planetfall, you cannot really decrease a base's population (no starving, no whipping), you can't abuse that easily (well, you could get your base conquered over and over again, but that's silly and stupid as it will hurt you more than do you good).

Give mechanic units an unique promo (akin to hive and spartans) that increases their heal rate - everybody is a techie there!

What would be nice would be seeing some effects that effects upon single cities "bleed through" to all their other cities, showing the effective link between them, for example faster religion spread, automatic sharing of great people effects between close cities etc. - but this reads like it's difficult to balance and code.

(mind you, some of these ideas here were originally for the university - so not everything may be 100% fitting)

Cheers, LT.

Great MOD !!!
You even copied the strange behavior when you play in easiest modes, that in general you don´t need to build any army...;) ... there are enough PODs around...
I miss only two things:
The Transcendes Victory .... In SMAC I love to play this fraction.
And that you design you own units ...I thing it not possible with CIV IV.

BTW: I play it in German, and there are often strange Names for the Leader PK.
Is it a Bug, or is this mod only playable in english ?

Greeting
H. Alvarez

Would it be possible to have the Consciousness faction arise from existing bases of the other factions. Like how new civs form in Rhyse and Fall? Perhaps though, it shouldn't have to wait until as late as Cybernetics is researched now. If I remember right, Aki-Zeta was supposed to have been the result of a program from the Unity taking over a human mind. That is, no cybernetics were required. Then again, that shouldn't happen much, so perhaps it should wait for cybernetics, but maybe cybernetics should come earlier.
The cybernetics take over should only happen in factions with cybernetics. To make up for that, cybernetics should be made into very useful tech.
Well, just some ideas, I'd like to see the Cybernetic Consciousness as a faction though.

Oops! I missed the next page of threads.
I see that people are already against bases flipping, so nevermind.

BTW: I play it in German, and there are often strange Names for the Leader PK.
Is it a Bug, or is this mod only playable in english ?So far, it only fully works in English. You could always help out with a translation into German... ;)

Another thing I just noticed (in my Yang game... but it's still in patch b/c): Planetbusters still require Iridium, but that's pretty hard to get (as only the crater provides iridium), I don't think that's really intended.

Cheers, LT.

Attached the edited gamefonts - used the latest gamefonts I made for you as a base.

Thanks!
Consciousness deleted.

Techsteal on base conquering, converting mechanic units, etc sound good way to counter their initial military weakness. I wouldn't want to the CyCon to have to start all-out wars to gain any of their benefits though. Might also be annoying for the CyCon "summoner" to be dragged into wars.

I figured 'something' could give the Consciousness settled great people in their HQ, turning it into a superbase. Don't know what that something could be though. It could be from any defeated InVitro/Cyborg/Walker unit. That way they wouldn't necessarily need to go to war themselves, but it would still make them more succesful the more chaos and warfare there is in the world. Not sure that's desired.

What makes Basium's angel spawning even better, is that it is something you can affect by improving the might of the civs that follow the religions that give you Angels. If something can be found, I'd prefer whatever gives CyCon settled great people, also be something you can try to influence.

automatic sharing of great people effects between close cities etc

That's what the Personality Transcription tech should eventually do. :D

Another thing I just noticed (in my Yang game... but it's still in patch b/c): Planetbusters still require Iridium, but that's pretty hard to get (as only the crater provides iridium), I don't think that's really intended.

Woops. Changed it to Helium-3.

I figured 'something' could give the Consciousness settled great people in their HQ, turning it into a superbase. Don't know what that something could be though. It could be from any defeated InVitro/Cyborg/Walker unit. That way they wouldn't necessarily need to go to war themselves, but it would still make them more succesful the more chaos and warfare there is in the world. Not sure that's desired.

In the CyCon's introduction story, a corps comes to life again, merged with a forgotten AI from the Unity. Perhaps you could do something similar? If somewhere on Planet a base decreases in population, a Great Person (AI) is discovered/activated in a CyCon base. You could even make it so that CyCon benefits link largely to their Great Persons. Letting this rely on base populations instead of units gives the benefit that it won't happen too much. But every base conquered, or razed, in whatever conflict between factions or native life, adds to the CyCon's factional strength...

Consciousness deleted.Out of context, that's a slightly creepy sentence!
What makes Basium's angel spawning even better, is that it is something you can affect by improving the might of the civs that follow the religions that give you Angels. If something can be found, I'd prefer whatever gives CyCon settled great people, also be something you can try to influence.What about hijacking the cooperation system - and the Consciousness starts out with the cooperation HQ in their mega city. This way, the Consciousness could actively spread it, akin to religions (and depending on the benefits, the factions might want to spread it themselves) - and there would be an immediate gain, plus the energy maintenance cost sounds fitting for it! And cooperations don't touch the diplomatic system, so you wouldn't get religion troubles due to it. On the other hand implementing the entire subsystem just for a single faction sounds a bit like "too much".

Other things that are possible:
Making it trigger on tech research (though that's probably too frequent to give out a regular great person), then the influence could manifest in giving out techs - give tech, get toy!
It could also trigger on anarchy, i.e. whenever a social engineering change happens, some people, some ideas, some things fall through the cracks - and the Consciousness picks them up (this idea, however, would work with almost the same reasoning for the Data Angels and the Drones) - and you can influence this by espionage and diplomacy.

Cheers, LT.

What about hijacking the cooperation system - and the Consciousness starts out with the cooperation HQ in their mega city. This way, the Consciousness could actively spread it, akin to religions (and depending on the benefits, the factions might want to spread it themselves) - and there would be an immediate gain, plus the energy maintenance cost sounds fitting for it! And cooperations don't touch the diplomatic system, so you wouldn't get religion troubles due to it. On the other hand implementing the entire subsystem just for a single faction sounds a bit like "too much".

Not a bad idea. And for your objection on activating the system for a single faction, perhaps another "corporation" could emulate part of the Progenitor resonance benefits once the aliens are in.

I figured 'something' could give the Consciousness settled great people in their HQ, turning it into a superbase. Don't know what that something could be though. It could be from any defeated InVitro/Cyborg/Walker unit. That way they wouldn't necessarily need to go to war themselves, but it would still make them more succesful the more chaos and warfare there is in the world. Not sure that's desired.

A ratio of 1:1 (each defated cybrog unit = one settled Great Specialist) would be probably too much...but we could use a geometrical increase like for Great People. So they get one for the 1st,3rd,6th,10t,15th,21th,... defeated worldwide.


What makes Basium's angel spawning even better, is that it is something you can affect by improving the might of the civs that follow the religions that give you Angels. If something can be found, I'd prefer whatever gives CyCon settled great people, also be something you can try to influence.

Maybe they should have a kind of corporation, which provides knowlegde to build cheaper cyborg units...but for each cyborg unit build in a city with that corporation on the world, the counter mentioned above gets +1?

I found it hard to get away from the cyborg units...there are few other links to this topic in Planetfall... espionage? Is the realm of the Angels. Alien Artifacts? Rather something for the progenitors? Maybe some techs or buidlings (didn't SMAC have some kind of Roboter factory or do I mix that up with Moo2?)
Speaking of Moo2...there were those android workers (farmers, workers and scientists)...they did not need food, but production points and weren't effected by racial boni, but by other improvements...maybe that could be something for Planetfall? What if all the "people" of Aki Zeta would comsume 2 minerals, 1mineral/1energy or 1food/1mineral instead of the two usual food? That would be a pretty unique mechanism not used in Planetfall so far. Such Androids would not become unhappy or unhealthy, but would not produce GPP as well.

In the CyCon's introduction story, a corps comes to life again, merged with a forgotten AI from the Unity.

I know, but I don't really like that story. It would mean the Consciousness are a bunch of walking zombies. :-s
I could see dying people choosing to have their personality transferred to the Consciousness. Of course they'd need to have cybernetic implants already present for this to be possible; hence why defeated Cyborgs and not for example defeated Helions would give a benefit to the Consciousness.
Anyway, I'd prefer it to be possible to grow through peaceful means, so...:

What about hijacking the corporation system - and the Consciousness starts out with the corporation HQ in their mega city.

I do like that, however:
One of things neat about Basium is that you come in the world not with a "okay, what should I do now..." feeling, but rather have a clear purpose: beat the crap out of the Ashen Veil! This is possible because religions have already spread by the time Basium gets summoned. Similarly I'd like the Consciousness to have some naturally evolved friends and enemies already present (through their corporation already being present in some bases) by the time they are formed, so they don't have start from scratch, but rather have an existing slate to work further on.

The question then becomes how to have that corporation (named the Network Backbone?) already spread in some places without their being a corporation HQ and 'executives' yet. Perhaps it could be given by a building. But then I fear for the AI: they wouldn't get that sometimes it is best not to build the building which spreads that corporation in their base.

A ratio of 1:1 (each defated cybrog unit = one settled Great Specialist) would be probably too much...but we could use a geometrical increase like for Great People. So they get one for the 1st,3rd,6th,10t,15th,21th,... defeated worldwide.

I'd just make it a percentual chance.

Speaking of Moo2...there were those android workers (farmers, workers and scientists)...they did not need food, but production points and weren't effected by racial boni, but by other improvements...maybe that could be something for Planetfall? What if all the "people" of Aki Zeta would comsume 2 minerals, 1mineral/1energy or 1food/1mineral instead of the two usual food? That would be a pretty unique mechanism not used in Planetfall so far. Such Androids would not become unhappy or unhealthy, but would not produce GPP as well.

Robotic workers make sense given Chiron's conditions, but that would be like a rewrite of civ's basic economic system and AI. Not really feasible. If I could redesign SMAC's economy from scratch, I'd make all workers (that is, the stuff that works plots and improvements) robots built by minerals, and all the actual human population specialists. But the Civ4 AI wouldn't get this.

I know, but I don't really like that story. It would mean the Consciousness are a bunch of walking zombies. :-s
I could see dying people choosing to have their personality transferred to the Consciousness. Of course they'd need to have cybernetic implants already present for this to be possible; hence why defeated Cyborgs and not for example defeated Helions would give a benefit to the Consciousness.
Anyway, I'd prefer it to be possible to grow through peaceful means, so...:

"Taking the form" of a deceased human is not the same as taking over a corpse. ;)
I've seen it as a lack of imagination on part of the CyCon AI's, and that they have a 'code' of only making a clone of a deceased person anywhere which they had access to by means of implants. Also, I didn't mean that only deceased people from a war between the CyCons and another faction would give a new Great Person, but any distracted population point wherever on Planet, by whatever faction it happens. So the CyCon faction doesn't necessarily needs to have a connection with the event where the population dies. For all I care it could be a succesful native attack on a Morganite base.

The logical problem I see with making defeated cyborg units affect the Consciousness is that I have trouble imagining there being anything viable left after the units are defeated. Especially with even more powerful weapons than we have today, there isn't going to be much left of a cyborg after you stop it. I mean the whole point of cyborgs would be that putting a bullet through it won't kill it: you have to destroy the mind controlling it (a wounded cyborg can keep fighting).

When entering the tech page of the datalinks with 11c, I often get this python exception:

I'm not getting that error.
It's strange that you say you get it often instead of always. This looks to me like an error which you should, given the right conditions, always get. If you can pinpoint what these conditions are, I can have another look. But until then there's nothing I can do.

I had a bit of time to play a bit more and now I'm wondering: What are people's experiences with the Carrier promotion? Lately, I tend to pick it very often, because even with only one or two interceptors loaded, carrier subs are very powerful - even more so with deep pressure hull or stealth - they are pretty expensive (as you need to build aircraft to load them) - but then, you can use non-coastal cities to build them, so it's easier and a bit more effective than building more ships in my experience (plus they can go on interception missions and they're very versatile), which makes me think that the carrier promo might be a bit too good...perhaps it needs to carry a strength or movement penalty or so?

Also, a random idea: Will we get some special missiles later? I think normal missiles are sort of part of the ranged special abilities, but I do miss the tactical nukes - and AFAIK, thermobaric missiles are planned? Will it be possible to load these on ships as well? (then the Carrier promo could become something like "launch tubes").

Cheers, LT.

I added a little bit of code now, so that carriers will become visible for a turn if one of the air units in their cargo does an air strike.

I could also reduce the extra cargo the spec ab gives, if the spec ab remains too powerful.

Great idea to rename the spec ab to Launch Tubes!

Thermobaric Missile will be loadable on ships.

In what situations would you use Tactical Nukes? I ask because I have never used those units before. In fact I have also only used ICBMs in one game before. And that was because it was a game of the month, and using ICBMs speeded up my last conquest to be victorious. The downsides of using nukes have never seemed to me worth the benefits.

Great idea to rename the spec ab to Launch Tubes!

Instead of Launch "Tubes", I recommend Launch Pods.
It's a bit hard to imagine a deployable aircraft in a tube, but a pod is more generic for that kind of purpose.

And on TacNukes, IIRC they only affect the plot where they detonate. So if it is on top of a city you have decreased strength on defending units, with of course loss of population/facilities, but the adjacent plots don't have fallout damage.

Then how tactical nukes they differ from guided missiles? :confused:

I don't find it hard to imagine an aircraft being mass-driver launched from a tube. But Perhaps it could be called Launch Rails instead? References to railguns. Railguns, coilguns, mass drivers - it's more or less the same thing. Would also work better for surface cruiser carriers, who don't need closable tubes like submarines do.

Then how tactical nukes they differ from guided missiles? :confused:

From the amount of damage they inflict perhaps? :nuke:

I don't find it hard to imagine an aircraft being mass-driver launched from a tube. But Perhaps it could be called Launch Rails instead? References to railguns. Railguns, coilguns, mass drivers - it's more or less the same thing. Would also work better for surface cruiser carriers, who don't need closable tubes like submarines do.

Your call, I would say.
But on "closable tubes", on today's missile carrying surface ships I've never seen an open launcher box except when the missile is about to be launched.
Perhaps you meant sealed tubes? That's a more appropriate term in English for a isolated structure.

I'm not getting that error.
It's strange that you say you get it often instead of always. This looks to me like an error which you should, given the right conditions, always get. If you can pinpoint what these conditions are, I can have another look. But until then there's nothing I can do.

The error seems to occur only (and as far as I can tell always), if I access the Datalinks from the main menu.

---

@ nukes

And on TacNukes, IIRC they only affect the plot where they detonate. So if it is on top of a city you have decreased strength on defending units, with of course loss of population/facilities, but the adjacent plots don't have fallout damage.

Assuming that we talk of the stock rules of BtS - I thought the only difference is the limited range and the lower cost...?

Then how tactical nukes they differ from guided missiles?

A guided missile only targets one unit, a nuke always affects all unit on the target tile (forcing them to survive a "kill check" of 50% probability and doing damage to the surviving units).


My main concern with Nukes in Planetfall are the ecological consequences. There is no "terraform" effect like SMAC Planetbusters had it, instead fallout, which can be easily cleaned up...and eventually some kind of global warming effect - an effect which causes a simple conversion of any terrain type to desert in BtS. I wonder if it just works the same in Planetfall...and if others think as well that this could be improved somewhat?

---

I really wonder, if patch c) (or maybe v0.80 of Better AI) had a positive impact on the AIs understanding of a Green strategy - it is the first game, where I watched AIs with constant high positive Planet Attitude (Deidre around +5, Yang between +2 and +3) Yang has the Pholus Rigde in his territory, but Deidre somehow followed a classic green strategy (less polluting improvements then usual, early "green" buildings).
She and Yang captured also a lot of native life units - just look at their number of units and what they pay for them (ok, Yang runs Police State...but Deidre not...)

The multiple production feature is also a great addition and boosts several elements of Planetfall greatly (anything related to having super-production-powerhouses...Planned Economy, Boreholes, Terraformer Strategies, Military Academies and production boosters).

Instead of Launch "Tubes", I recommend Launch Pods.
It's a bit hard to imagine a deployable aircraft in a tube, but a pod is more generic for that kind of purpose.Pfff.... you need to watch more BSG (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Launch_tube_%28RDM%29)! ;) But launch rails or launch coils sound cool as well and as Maniac said, makes them less specific to subs.
And on TacNukes, IIRC they only affect the plot where they detonate. So if it is on top of a city you have decreased strength on defending units, with of course loss of population/facilities, but the adjacent plots don't have fallout damage.Yep, the full effect of nukes, just on a smaller scale - that makes them more useful for more "surgical" strikes (even on defence, as you can more easily target enemy SoD without too much damage to your own territory - and for some native infestations, I just wish I had that red button again!). Also, they can be put into subs, you don't need to be afraid of losing them when your cities get conquered. An additional reason to use them is that they have a 50% chance of evading SDI interception (of course, there's no SDI in Planetfall). Of course, sans the fallout, this could become the base for the thermobaric missile as well (seeing the possible uses).

Cheers, LT.

Pfff.... you need to watch more BSG (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Launch_tube_%28RDM%29)! ;)

I've seen them all except the second half of the last season. Those "tubes" the vipers are launched in are IMHO tunnels or corridors. :p

The error seems to occur only (and as far as I can tell always), if I access the Datalinks from the main menu.

Are you sure that only started happening under patch c? That it wasn't present under patch a or earlier versions? Because if it was present earlier as well, I think I may know the cause of this (Vista-exclusive) bug. If it's only been present since patch c, I don't have a clue.

My main concern with Nukes in Planetfall are the ecological consequences. There is no "terraform" effect like SMAC Planetbusters had it, instead fallout, which can be easily cleaned up...and eventually some kind of global warming effect - an effect which causes a simple conversion of any terrain type to desert in BtS. I wonder if it just works the same in Planetfall...and if others think as well that this could be improved somewhat?

If I were to change the ecological effects of nukes, I'd let it turn land into polar terrain. That way it has an interesting synergy with Enclosed Biosphere. Imagine Yang running Enclosed Biosphere and throwing nukes all over the place.
Though personally I never use nukes because of the diplomatic consequences. Doesn't everyone get pissed at you for using nukes?

I really wonder, if patch c) (or maybe v0.80 of Better AI) had a positive impact on the AIs understanding of a Green strategy

Yeah, I actually made some changes in the hopes the AI could do a pro-Planet strategy. :D
I don't announce AI changes because:
1) half the time it turns out they're not working as intended, and I have to make some further changes
2) I can only do limited playtesting
3) if someone independently notices AI improvements, like now, it's a sign it's not just me imagining stuff ;)

I'm very surprised at the effects though. :eek:
And also a bit perplexed at some of the numbers. How does Gaia and the Hive manage to get such large populations yet at the same time maintain a positive Planet Attitude?? Did they recently conquer some large bases from other factions? Also the high city maintenance costs of the Hive seem to indicate they're not running the Hybrid civic. So there's still stuff left to do. Ideally I'd like each game to have 2 or 3 factions running a pro-Planet/Hybrid strategy, 2 or 3 running a Terraformer strategy, and at most 1 or 2 running Enclosed Biosphere in the endgame. That way the stage can be set for a Transcendence Victory and epic endgame ecological wars.

Could you please upload a save? I'd like to have a look at the base sizes, terrain improvements, base facilities, unit composition... Gaia and the Hive are using.

***

In the past I usually played either the Believers or the Gaians to test a terraformer or hybrid strategy. While doing some limited playtesting to see if my hybrid AI changes were working, I kinda noticed that for the other factions, only in a minority of the starting positions it's realistically possible to keep your Planet Attitude positive before you get more means to increase it (Biolabs, Empath Guilds). So I was wondering if perhaps I should let the HQ give +1 Planet Value to the base. That may be enough to make the AI more often follow a pro-Planet strategy.

Do other people also have this experience that a pro-Planet strategy rarely is the best choice?

***

Anyone interested in a succesion game after I release the next patch by the way? Could be an interesting way to see what strategies people use.

In the past I usually played either the Believers or the Gaians to test a terraformer or hybrid strategy. While doing some limited playtesting to see if my hybrid AI changes were working, I kinda noticed that for the other factions, only in a minority of the starting positions it's realistically possible to keep your Planet Attitude positive before you get more means to increase it (Biolabs, Empath Guilds). So I was wondering if perhaps I should let the HQ give +1 Planet Value to the base. That may be enough to make the AI more often follow a pro-Planet strategy.

Do other people also have this experience that a pro-Planet strategy rarely is the best choice?

I always rush for Biolabs so that I can keep a positive PA, even when I plan to run a terraforming strategy later. Having that little bit of a buffer seems (IMO) to be important in the early game, when you can't afford to waste resources fighting off Planet.

Are you sure that only started happening under patch c? That it wasn't present under patch a or earlier versions? Because if it was present earlier as well, I think I may know the cause of this (Vista-exclusive) bug. If it's only been present since patch c, I don't have a clue.

No, I didn't notice this before...I always browse the Datalinks after a new patch before starting the game, so I guess I would have noticed it (IIRC, I had Python exceptions enabled before v11 came out and if you enter the the Datainks from the main menu, you always come to the tech page first...) Nonetheless, a vista issue would be no wonder...perhaps someone else running Planetfall on a Vista OS can enable python exceptions and check it?


If I were to change the ecological effects of nukes, I'd let it turn land into polar terrain. That way it has an interesting synergy with Enclosed Biosphere. Imagine Yang running Enclosed Biosphere and throwing nukes all over the place.

Nuclear winter sounds good, as it is more credible as direct consequence.


Though personally I never use nukes because of the diplomatic consequences. Doesn't everyone get pissed at you for using nukes?

Not necessarily. The victim of course get really mad at you, any friend of him to a lesser degree (BTW, two more things which can be easily and directly modified individually for each leader via leadrhead.xml) - other civs will not care at all.


Yeah, I actually made some changes in the hopes the AI could do a pro-Planet strategy. :D
I don't announce AI changes because:
1) half the time it turns out they're not working as intended, and I have to make some further changes
2) I can only do limited playtesting
3) if someone independently notices AI improvements, like now, it's a sign it's not just me imagining stuff ;)

I'm very surprised at the effects though. :eek:
And also a bit perplexed at some of the numbers. How does Gaia and the Hive manage to get such large populations yet at the same time maintain a positive Planet Attitude?? Did they recently conquer some large bases from other factions? Also the high city maintenance costs of the Hive seem to indicate they're not running the Hybrid civic. So there's still stuff left to do. Ideally I'd like each game to have 2 or 3 factions running a pro-Planet/Hybrid strategy, 2 or 3 running a Terraformer strategy, and at most 1 or 2 running Enclosed Biosphere in the endgame. That way the stage can be set for a Transcendence Victory and epic endgame ecological wars.

Could you please upload a save? I'd like to have a look at the base sizes, terrain improvements, base facilities, unit composition... Gaia and the Hive are using.

I have attached three saves from different stages of the game. Yang might have captured a base recently in the war vs. Santiago (though there was no notification in the log), but Deidre didn't wage any wars. I noticed at least two settled down transcends for here, she has Monolith and Nexus access and of course founded the VoP...she constantly switches between EB and Hybrid


In the past I usually played either the Believers or the Gaians to test a terraformer or hybrid strategy. While doing some limited playtesting to see if my hybrid AI changes were working, I kinda noticed that for the other factions, only in a minority of the starting positions it's realistically possible to keep your Planet Attitude positive before you get more means to increase it (Biolabs, Empath Guilds). So I was wondering if perhaps I should let the HQ give +1 Planet Value to the base. That may be enough to make the AI more often follow a pro-Planet strategy.

Do other people also have this experience that a pro-Planet strategy rarely is the best choice?

At least it need the most concentration to be maintained, because you have to play the game in a (compared to stock rules) counter-intuitive way (e.g. do NOT maxime base growth, spam cities like their is no maintenance, do NOT max out tile output...)

With the late change towards how native life units are supported and the fact that it is now impossible to build them without positive PA I would say there is enough incentive to go for a green startegy...OTOH, my current game is the first, where I suceeded as terraformer with cutting back the fungus and I found multiple production a powerful tool to get up your defense. However, it was again a game with transformation - I started out green and used it as a buffer for along time, like Keeper_GFA explained. I currently undecided, with all that fancy recent changes... :crazyeye:


Anyone interested in a succesion game after I release the next patch by the way? Could be an interesting way to see what strategies people use.

Yes, could be interesting if enough people participate.

--------

Edit:

Is it intended that an aquaformer in damaged state on a seafungus tile prevents other aquaformers on that tile from removing fungus? Because that happens in this save - you cannot use the intact formers, unless you self-destruct the damaged one (the tile is one the right egde of the minimap, in the middle)

Hey, I finally got around to finish this - a relatively complete translation into German. It's not perfect (it could need a good proofreading) and I'm away from the my German CDs of SMAC/X, so it's still missing the SMAX blurbs and I translated the base names freely. And I probably missed some bits and bobs and skipped the placeholder entries - but it's complete enough to allow you playing Planetfall without understanding English, I think! :)

I tried to push it out as fast as possible after the last patch (c) to make it easier for you, Maniac, to merge it in - and if time and motivation permits, I'll try update it after patches.

I almost didn't touch the English bits, the only thing I did was removing the curly braces from some tech quotes and replacing it with the colour highlight - I also noticed that some text keys of some techs/buildings are misspelt, so they're not showing the quote... but I didn't fix it, as it's not in the text files.

Now, I hope, I can go back to do more graphics... ;)

Cheers, LT.

No, I didn't notice this before...I always browse the Datalinks after a new patch before starting the game, so I guess I would have noticed it

In that case I don't have a clue what it is. In any case, I've fixed an issue which has been present for a long time - tell me after the next patch if the problem still persists. :)

I have attached three saves from different stages of the game. Yang might have captured a base recently in the war vs. Santiago (though there was no notification in the log), but Deidre didn't wage any wars. I noticed at least two settled down transcends for here, she has Monolith and Nexus access and of course founded the VoP...she constantly switches between EB and Hybrid

Thanks. Two things that struck me:
1) They weren't running the Hybrid civic. :( Will need to mess with the civicvalue AI.
2) The Gaians were still building an alarming amount of greenhouses and farms. Will need to figure out what causes that behaviour.

Is it intended that an aquaformer in damaged state on a seafungus tile prevents other aquaformers on that tile from removing fungus?

Woops. I forbade formers from building improvements on plots with immobile units. I didn't want people replacing bunkers while the bunker unit was still present. I hadn't considered damaged formers are immobile too. I've fixed this for the next patch.

Hey, I finally got around to finish this - a relatively complete translation into German.

Cool. I have put it in the game. :)

Hello again.

Yesterday I finished playing my first Planetfall game. It was quite embarassing, actually. :) I played as Spartans and lost to my closest neighbour, Morgan, in less than 120 turns. That's something that never happened to me in SMAC, ever. :)

A few questions, if I may.

1) Am I correct in suggesting that some animations are missing from the game? I'm talking about rovers in particular. Their battles look quite silly now - just staring at each other until one of them blows up. :)

2) Is early war possible? With units of strenght 3 available early and not that cheap techcosts for Plasma troopers/Dropships I assume that rushes are out of the question. Still, I thought that Santiago would have an upper hand in combat, like free promotions or something. Loosing to Morgan is sooo inappropriate. :)

3) I have not yet figured a way to hurry production. Why hurrying with money is not enabled by default? I amassed heaps of energy through early exploration and bullied my neighbours for credits, seriously hurting my diplomatic relations, only to discover that there is no way of spending my wealth. :)

4) I have spotted tens of IoDs in this game but I haven't seen a single Mindworm or a Spore launcher. In another game I'm playing now the native life on land is a frightening sight, I haven't seen such numbers in SMAC until the lategame. What determines the amount of Planetlife on the map?

5) The maintainance bay is supposed to provide 1 free citizen, right? I'm asking because it doesn't.

6) Are the Spore Launchers different from Mindworms? How?

7) In my current game I have a city which has a Spore launcher (within it's radius) sitting on top of the Fungal tower. The Spore launcher doesn't move. What is it waiting for?

8) Is there some parameter that determines how far apart are the starting locations? It's too crowded in my games - even on a huge map the factions are placed very close to each other.

1) Am I correct in suggesting that some animations are missing from the game? I'm talking about rovers in particular. Their battles look quite silly now - just staring at each other until one of them blows up. :)Yeah, currently, they are only static models, nobody has made animations for them so far...
3) I have not yet figured a way to hurry production. Why hurrying with money is not enabled by default? I amassed heaps of energy through early exploration and bullied my neighbours for credits, seriously hurting my diplomatic relations, only to discover that there is no way of spending my wealth. :)Once you get to Nanites, you can switch civics (that's, AFAIK, a temporary solution) that will allow you hurrying with energy. The hive can whip slavery-style - but that's their special thing.
8) Is there some parameter that determines how far apart are the starting locations? It's too crowded in my games - even on a huge map the factions are placed very close to each other.That's on purpose to get some early tension - in the game options (custom game), you can select "scattered landing pods" to get the standard civ distances in the game.

Cheers, LT.

2) Is early war possible? With units of strenght 3 available early and not that cheap techcosts for Plasma troopers/Dropships I assume that rushes are out of the question. Still, I thought that Santiago would have an upper hand in combat, like free promotions or something. Loosing to Morgan is sooo inappropriate. :)

Spartan units start with the Spartan promotion which gives them bonuses to retreat, healing and bombardment. Early war is possible, but is difficult to get meaningful results. The best early strategy IME is to rush rovers -- some with flanking promotions to weaken enemies and some with combat promotions to finish them.

5) The maintainance bay is supposed to provide 1 free citizen, right? I'm asking because it doesn't.

Yes it does. A citizen is a type of specialist, not a point of population.

6) Are the Spore Launchers different from Mindworms? How?

Spore launchers are artillery type units, meaning they can only damage a unit to 50% when they attack.

7) In my current game I have a city which has a Spore launcher (within it's radius) sitting on top of the Fungal tower. The Spore launcher doesn't move. What is it waiting for?

It's probably trying to protect the tower.

Yes it does. A citizen is a type of specialist, not a point of population.
I am well aware of that, and no, it doesn't. Unless I am missing something here. :) The number of free specialists does not change upon the completition of the building.

P.S. Never mind, it really does. :) I was just searching in the wrong place.

Now I remember that, when I completed Children's Creches and experienced city growth on the next turn, the food bar wasn't at 25% like it should have been. How does this work?

Spore launchers are artillery type units, meaning they can only damage a unit to 50% when they attack.
So I'm assuming they can't kill a unit (is this true for non-combat units?). Combat in Civ IV is not something I am used to. I've seen SL attack my rovers numerous times but either of them had always withdrawn from combat. Do SL withdraw when they have dealt their share of damage?

9) What do barbarians... er, I mean wildlife... do with the cities they capture? I've seen the population of the invaded cities diminishing over time. Why was that? And what does some percentage on Native Life citizens upon re-capturing the city mean? :) Can it influence anything?

10) It seems to me that my first battles with wildlife always leave me unscratched. Is that the intent, or am I just incredibly lucky?

2) Is early war possible? With units of strenght 3 available early and not that cheap techcosts for Plasma troopers/Dropships I assume that rushes are out of the question.

What do you need in order to do early rushes that currently isn't in the game?

3) I have not yet figured a way to hurry production. Why hurrying with money is not enabled by default? I amassed heaps of energy through early exploration and bullied my neighbours for credits, seriously hurting my diplomatic relations, only to discover that there is no way of spending my wealth. :)

Yeah, with hypnotic trance and rovers you can get much more money than you need early on. Still, it will allow you to keep your science slider at 100% far longer than others, so it does lead to an economic advantage.

4) I have spotted tens of IoDs in this game but I haven't seen a single Mindworm or a Spore launcher. In another game I'm playing now the native life on land is a frightening sight, I haven't seen such numbers in SMAC until the lategame. What determines the amount of Planetlife on the map?

Difficulty level and how much unsettled territory there is in the area.

6) Are the Spore Launchers different from Mindworms? How?

In addition to what's been said, they also deal collateral damage. They're catapults, more or less.

7) In my current game I have a city which has a Spore launcher (within it's radius) sitting on top of the Fungal tower. The Spore launcher doesn't move. What is it waiting for?

I assume it's on a spawning spot. Native life will try to garrison spawning spots with one non-fungal tower unit.

9) What do barbarians... er, I mean wildlife... do with the cities they capture?

Build new native life in it at the moment. In future versions they should "eat/infest", that is: draft, the population to size 1.

And what does some percentage on Native Life citizens upon re-capturing the city mean?

I don't understand this sentence. :confused:

10) It seems to me that my first battles with wildlife always leave me unscratched. Is that the intent, or am I just incredibly lucky?

Depending on your difficulty level, yeah you can have a couple free kills against native life.

Hey, I finally got around to finish this - a relatively complete translation into German.

Did SMAC translate 'Mind Worm' to 'Psycho-Virus'?

I don't understand this sentence. :confused:

He's talking about the ethnic percentage of the citizens in a base.
For instance a Spartan city starts with 100% Spartan ethnicity. If it is a border city with another faction a small percentage could become from another faction. But if native life captures a Spartan base, and a few turns later this base is recaptured by the Spartans, a certain percentage will have become "native life" citizens instead of Spartans.

Ah, I see. While that doesn't make much sense if you think too hard about it, it doesn't lead to any gameplay problems.

Did SMAC translate 'Mind Worm' to 'Psycho-Virus'?

Yes, thats the term in the German version.

I don't understand this sentence.
Sorry, I think I misprinted 'on' instead of 'of'.

What do you need in order to do early rushes that currently isn't in the game?
A tiny bit faster access to 4-strenght weaponry. As you remember, Non-Linear Mathematics was easily available as a 3rd tech in vanilla SMAC. 4 vs. 3 is not that high an advantage, but it is an advantage nonetheless. I don't know where you could place it, though, except for the Superconductor.

As of now, the Armor (with anti-personel upgrade) + Infantry defense combination is impenetrable. It shreds Infantry to pieces, and Rovers don't have a chance against it because of 50% difference in power, leaving only Choppers to deal with it. And fortified Infantry is very hard to get through.

Another option would be nerfing Armor to defense-only unit. Right now I feel cheated when I choose Physics (Conquer tech) and end up with a unit design that is inferior to the one a Builder gets. :)

If infantry units had 25% attack vs. base (instead of 25% attack vs. infanry), I would at least have a chance to approach the base without a fear of immediate retaliation by enemy's infantry. It makes sense, balance-wise: a 25% attack bonus can be negated with a 25% bonus that 'Fortify' option provides, and there is base defense bonus on top of that.

Do rocky or fungus tiles provide a defensive bonus? My biggest problem is approaching the base.

Yes, thats the term in the German version.

I'm of course not familiar with German, but is that not a rather silly translation? Worms are rather different from viruses.

Is Geesteswurm sound German? :mischief:

Is Geesteswurm sound German? :mischief::lol: - but yeah, it's a rather silly translation (the Psycho-Virus), and frankly, I don't like it at all - but it is mentioned in a couple of quotes (and hence the German sound files), so I didn't touch it.

Cheers, LT.

Does Geesteswurm sound German? :mischief:

Sie haben wirklich hauptschmerzen. :mischief:

Yeah, currently, they are only static models, nobody has made animations for them so far...


I guess, the Humvee animations/+skeleton could maybe be swapped on that model.

I
Is Geesteswurm sound German? :mischief:

Geisteswurm is better.

Sie haben wirklich hauptschmerzen. :mischief:

Kopfschmerzen.



....ah, where's the grammar nazi thread :D? I'll go over there, and troll there a bit :D.

Ok, I've almost completed my Spartans game. Thoughts:

I think I can relate to the bug with the datalinks. 60% of the time the tech list - which is the first thing you see when you go to the datalinks - does not load for me. It looks blank and though it does not crash per se, it will if you try to click on the tech requirements for other entries. Once I load the game everything is fine. As I've already said, I am a Vista user, if it is of any help.

Despite early difficulties with combat, mid-game battles are a no-brainer. InVitro units are insanely good for terraformers because of the food requirements to build them. In fact, I had a very poor mineral output in most of my bases (rocky squares and mineral resourses are few and far between), but had enormous amount of surplus food. I was able to build them once in every 2-3 turns - nobody had a slightest chance to resist my invasion force.

As if it wasn't enough, dropships were almost too good to be true. 4 Cargo, 3 Movement points. I was able to invade my neighbours on the same turn I declared war at them. And with 5-xp 6-str hordes fighting several 4-str garrisons I emerged victorious in every combat. I didn't even had a chance to see cyborgs. :)

There really should have been some measures of transporting units besides dropships. I miss the roads. :) For now I do not have much use for formers. Compared to original SMAC, where I had to maintain 100+ Former fleets, my measly 8 formers don't let me feel I am actively transforming hostile environment in a place better suited for humans. If terraforming efforts were more time-consuming and civics' benefits to terraforming were not that great (and roads were back, even at ridiculous costs :), then Hybrid lovers can have their analogue of Xenoempathy Dome for free at some point to counter this), the terraforming aspects of the game would have been more meaningful.

As for native life, it is more of a nuisance then a threat. They do not raze cities, and because of the Planetfall's rules the buildings are left intact, so recapturing the city is just a matter of time. And I never manage to recapture it in time before some other faction drives Mindworms out and claims the city for itself. Grrrr! Fortunately, I am scary enough to intimidate them into liberating the city. :) But for AI it is really harmful. University was practically destroyed in my game when two of its bases fell to the Mindworms and were recapured by Morganites and The Hive. Can recapturing and then not liberating a city be considered an act of agression?

Speaking of liberation, I don't really understand the rules. In my game Morgan had built 2 Colony Pods but was too afraid to move them across the fungus. I made 2 Colony Pods of my own and then traveled beyond his territory where I felt he wanted his bases placed, built the bases and 'liberated' them. When I wanted to assist Zakharov in the same way I could not offer him to liberate one of my newly built cities, but could make such an offer to Morgan.

How does loading/unloading on dropships work? Does a unit have to spend its turn to board the transport? Why unboarding is free then? I know that if a dropship is destroyed then all the cargo is destroyed too. Unboarding each dropship before the end of turn makes things so much easier for invaders. Being able to board/unboard everywhere is also a good way of sneak attacking the enemy that can't even reach you. I think limiting these options to cities as in vanilla SMAC would drastically reduce the cheesyness of the overpowered unit. Limiting movement points could work too - the ability to pass terrain restrictions is formidable as it is.

Overall, great mod with a great potential. :)

Geisteswurm is better....still sounds a bit silly, because "Geist" in German has different connotations than "mind" in English, because "Geist" can also mean "ghost"... not a big thing (because "Geistes-" makes it clear that it's not about ghosts, but it does changes the feel you get from the word in subtle ways, I think) - but I would prefer something "Psychwurm" or "Hirnwurm" to get the association with psychology (like mind has a bit) and brains! :D

Cheers, LT.

A tiny bit faster access to 4-strenght weaponry. As you remember

If you're playing on a difficulty level fitting for your skills, the AI would also research that tech around the same time, and you wouldn't have stronger weapons anymore.

Anyway, it seems you're viewing this from the perspective of SMAC. Base conquest in Planetfall is certainly more difficult than in SMAC. However my feeling is that it's easier than in vanilla Civ4, as you can get 'catapults' (armor with the accuracy special ability) with much less research than vanilla Civ.

Do rocky or fungus tiles provide a defensive bonus?

Yes. See the Datalinks or the mouse-over help.

:lol: - but yeah, it's a rather silly translation (the Psycho-Virus), and frankly, I don't like it at all - but it is mentioned in a couple of quotes (and hence the German sound files), so I didn't touch it.

Well... Personally I would not consider this reason enough to endure the hideous Psycho-Virus, but I'm not the one who's gonna have to play the game with the German translation. You decide. ;) Hirnwurm sounds cool (and short enough) to me for the record.

I also noticed Planetmind was simply translated as Planeten btw.

Sie haben wirklich hauptschmerzen. :mischief:

Adjective
sound (comparative sounder, superlative soundest)

1.Healthy.
He was safe and sound.
2.Complete, solid, or secure.
Fred assured me the floorboards were sound.
3.(British, slang) Good or a good thing.
"How are you?" - "I'm sound."
That's a sound track you're playing.

I guess, the Humvee animations/+skeleton could maybe be swapped on that model.

Humvee? Where, where?

Despite early difficulties with combat, mid-game battles are a no-brainer. InVitro units are insanely good for terraformers because of the food requirements to build them. In fact, I had a very poor mineral output in most of my bases (rocky squares and mineral resourses are few and far between), but had enormous amount of surplus food. I was able to build them once in every 2-3 turns - nobody had a slightest chance to resist my invasion force.

What difficulty level are you playing on for the record?

Dropships will be available somewhat later and Magtubes a little earlier in the next patch.

I have no intention to copy SMAC's insane former micromanagement. ;)

As for native life, it is more of a nuisance then a threat. They do not raze cities, and because of the Planetfall's rules the buildings are left intact, so recapturing the city is just a matter of time.

After I add drafting for the barbarians, you won't be able to take your time to recapture the base, or you'll lose all your population! That should hopefully add some tension and pressure if you lose a base to the natives.

But for AI it is really harmful. University was practically destroyed in my game when two of its bases fell to the Mindworms and were recapured by Morganites and The Hive. Can recapturing and then not liberating a city be considered an act of agression?

I've been thinking about that, but I'm not sure how I could get something like that to work in practice. In any case, IIRC the AI is already more likely to declare war on players who have cities with lots of their culture in it. So if you steal one of their bases under their nose, you might be facing a war declaration in the future.

Speaking of liberation, I don't really understand the rules.

That's silly Firaxis code. Personally I think it's best to pretend that feature doesn't exist. :mischief:

If you're playing on a difficulty level fitting for your skills, the AI would also research that tech around the same time, and you wouldn't have stronger weapons anymore.
What difficulty level are you playing on for the record?
I am playing Noble, because it is considered 'fair', but I think everything I said might be true for Monarch. I don't think I can get 7+ population on Emperor and above without some serious drawbacks, though. :)

As for the InVitro, I don't think AI can produce them at the same speed. They don't build enough farms for that (and not everyone is running Terraformer civic either). I would have built them even if they were str-4, just because of the fact that I don't have the minerals to build anything else in my food rich bases. Str-5, or even better, restricting them from getting XP/promotions/abilities would make them less attractive.

After I add drafting for the barbarians, you won't be able to take your time to recapture the base, or you'll lose all your population!
I did not 'take my time', I was moving my forces to the base as quickly as possible, preferrably even before it was captured. It's just it takes sooo long without the roads, that other factions almost always beat me in this race. :)

Besides, I can swear I already was losing population! My size 4 base went to 1 after I had driven the Worms out.

I have no intention to copy SMAC's insane former micromanagement.
A pity. I loved that aspect of the game. :)

So if you steal one of their bases under their nose, you might be facing a war declaration in the future.
I did just that and 20 turns later they became my vassals. :) They can't recover from these takeovers easily. Maybe they can get Psi bonuses as the difficulty level progresses or perhaps they can be taught to deal with the wildlife better and avoid these kind of situations altogether.

Concerning dropships, I think they can be balanced if you needed something to cover them with when they are transporting their cargo. For now, the cargo can act as a shield at the end of the turn, which makes them invincible.

Don't you think that Plasma Shard special ability makes both Anti-personel and Empath Song abilities redundant? If it were to add 15% vs Psi/Infantry instead of 25%, at least there would be a choice. :)

Base conquest in Planetfall is certainly more difficult than in SMAC. However my feeling is that it's easier than in vanilla Civ4, as you can get 'catapults' (armor with the accuracy special ability) with much less research than vanilla Civ.

Or play as the Spartans who now get 5% bombardment for all of their units. :D

I have no intention to copy SMAC's insane former micromanagement. ;)

Thank goodness. The extreme terraforming is probably the biggest reason I don't enjoy SMAC anymore.

Don't you think that Plasma Shard special ability makes both Anti-personel and Empath Song abilities redundant? If it were to add 15% vs Psi/Infantry instead of 25%, at least there would be a choice. :)

Not so much when you consider the possibility of getting 2 abilities. And certainly not for Empath Song which allows you to capture native life.

...still sounds a bit silly, because "Geist" in German has different connotations than "mind" in English, because "Geist" can also mean "ghost"... not a big thing (because "Geistes-" makes it clear that it's not about ghosts, but it does changes the feel you get from the word in subtle ways, I think) - but I would prefer something "Psychwurm" or "Hirnwurm" to get the association with psychology (like mind has a bit) and brains! :D

Cheers, LT.

:lol: "Hirnwurm" sounds more like an insult :D.


Humvee? Where, where?


:confused:
It's an older unit, here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8922) (by snafusmith).
I guess, the animation is the base for more 4 wheeled units, like the various jeeps from Krugerpritz here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12768). He's also made anther version of the hummer, here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12890).

Ok, gave it another try, this time on Monarch difficulty as Morgan.

I checked that 'spread out' option at the beginning of the game. Found Material Supplies in a pod, built the project that reveals the map. Wow, I never thought we were *that* spread out. Found a Unity Rover too and by MY 2160 I took almost 70% of the land Pods because I knew their locations. I had quite an army of Choppers, too. :)

Yang and Miriam were the closest neighbours. Well, there was a Santiago right next to me, but she was isolated on an island and I did not consider her. My bases were very spread out and some of them were too far away from the headquarters, so it took me awhile to build everything I needed. Yang was the one who founded Voice of Planet (beat me by 3 turns there) and I followed with Edenism shortly after. This made thing between us quite tense, but I always complied to his demands and managed to maintain a strained peace. Yang had hordes of low-level units, but I did not have anything better than Armor&Choppers for a long time. Then I gained a friendship of Zacharov and we traded every single tech we could. After that I just bee-lined to Cloning and was the first to get it along with Kinematics. You know the rest. :)

I didn't even research High Energy Chemistry.

This time I had a heavy mineral output in half of my bases so food requirements of InVitro didn't play such a desicive role as they did in the last game. Still, I think there is a lack of a good defensive unit for those who did not reach Kinematics or Cloning in time.

P.S. I have noticed that I can only add special abilities to Dropships built in my Headquarters, though there are no Secret Projects or any buildings that aren't in my other bases except for the Naval Yard. Are they considered to be sea units?

P.S. I have noticed that I can only add special abilities to Dropships built in my Headquarters, though there are no Secret Projects or any buildings that aren't in my other bases except for the Naval Yard. Are they considered to be sea units?

Yes, they are technically Cruisers.

-------

@ "Psychovirus"

I agree that it is a non-literal and odd translation of "Mindworm" - but OTOH, German SMAC players are now very used to this term, it is used in ingame-media and it catches best that feeling of danger/terror. "(Ge)hirnwurm" is better then "Geisteswurm" but still lacks the emphasize on the consequences of an attack. Technically, "virus" is completly wrong, but they way those worms act and what they cause, they are similar to a virus infection. I just fear that using another, better "translated" term will make many German players think that the translation is rather bad because being to literally...

Either way, if that translation is complete and tested, it would be probably good to open a thread over at the German Webring forum (it is the biggest German forum with civ-related stuff I know) to collect feedback there - I could do that if it is desired.

Technically, "virus" is completly wrong, but they way those worms act and what they cause, they are similar to a virus infection.
That's why I totally hate the translation - the mindworms act as immune system of Planet, throwing the "virus" into the mix is rather unfortunate from my point of view, even if it makes some sense from a human point of view.
Either way, if that translation is complete and tested, it would be probably good to open a thread over at the German Webring forum (it is the biggest German forum with civ-related stuff I know) to collect feedback there - I could do that if it is desired.Oh, good idea! I think I still have an account over there... (you're talking about this forum, right? (http://www.civforum.de/)) way back I helped to translate one or two FfH2 texts, so once you open a thread, I can participate in the discussion as well. :)

Cheers, LT.

Oh, good idea! I think I still have an account over there... (you're talking about this forum, right? (http://www.civforum.de/)) way back I helped to translate one or two FfH2 texts, so once you open a thread, I can participate in the discussion as well. :)

Cheers, LT.

Yes, I was refering to this forum. For the download, I think their is no need to load up each version there seperately (I would just refer to gamesvault, many other mods do this as well) and a make a post if a new version is released (and maybe translate the patch notes). I will create the thread after Maniac has uploaded the new patch and I had the chance to play a couple of turns with the translation as well.

How about an ability to repair a damaged former, or even just a bonus to the chance of a former being repaired, when another unit is on the tile with it. I know it's just bad luck on my part, but having a damaged former sitting there for maybe ten turns or more when the offending worm/isle has been killed and there are no others nearby is frustrating and expensive.

I played a game under version 11f this evening. Had the Peacekeeper faction. Normal speed -and map.
The thing is, every so often my credits count would increase by about a hundred. Is there a mechanism that let this happens, like defeating native life?

Btw, better reduce the scale of the Energy Bank. I crops in neighbouring buildings and looks gigantic next to the Energy Nexus. And the shadow seems corrupt too.

I played a game under version 11f this evening. Had the Peacekeeper faction. Normal speed -and map.
The thing is, every so often my credits count would increase by about a hundred. Is there a mechanism that let this happens, like defeating native life?

Nope. If you attach a save of just before it happens, I can investigate the matter.

Btw, better reduce the scale of the Energy Bank. I crops in neighbouring buildings and looks gigantic next to the Energy Nexus. And the shadow seems corrupt too.

Woops. Lord Tirian designed the graphics for 4x2, and it was in 3x1.

***

By the way Pfeffersack, do you still get the python exception when viewing the tech pedia pages?

Ok, some more feedback and ideas.

1. Wild (probably Irregular too) still doesn't seem to be working quite right. I can freely enter and pillage rival territory but I cannot attack them. Then can, however, attack my wild units freely.

2. More fungus! Tile features can coexist with a resource and an improvement, right? So how about putting fungus on the Pholus Ridge. Makes sense to me, and it would prevent people from using the ridge until they understood Xenobiology.

3. Even more fungus!! How about letting us build fungus under existing improvements without replacing them. It's important for uniques like Manifold Nexus, only a timesaver for normal stuff. Or maybe just start the unique features with fungus already present to show Planet's attempt to reclaim the territory.

4. Jungles rule! Why can we build stuff in jungles without losing the jungle, but not in forests or on fungus? Maybe certain techs/civics should allow improvements on forests, fungus, and hybrid forests.

5. Another thing about Hybrid Forests, it seems odd to me that the production bonus is dependant upon following the Hybrid civic. It would seem more natural to give the production bonus normally. Maybe even give a food bonus for following the civic.

6. Do mines really give a chance to discover resources? I know the chance is supposed to be low, but I've tried building mines in every unused tile within my territory and have never found a new resource. Maybe the tile has to be used, but that makes no sense since a used mine will usually already have a resource.

7. More jungles. Can we build a jungle please? Do they spread?

8. It would be neat if, when a forest or fungus spread into each other, it resulted in a hybrid forest.

9. I was thinking about fungus and kelp on trenches as well (they float, right?), but I guess that's just a mechanical failing since they are both features.

10. The ruins icon. I really liked it at first but it looks totally out of place, especially when the borehole cluster, manifold nexus, and garland crater all have a normal picture type icon. Wouldn't the same work for the ruins?

11. Any plans to add the wreckage of the Unity? I like the current implementation of the material supply pods, but having the wreckage as a single tile improvement would be cool. It could give a regular (upgradeable) supply pod when explored. I was trying to think of a suitable tile bonus as well, but it should be pretty unusable I think. Maybe it could give a regular and a material supply pod.

As always, love the mod and thanks for all the work.


Edit: One more little thing. The resource icons on the science advisor screen that show what techs reveal and enable what resources should be reversed. The yellow bordered ones are much more noticeable to me, which makes me think that they would be better suited for the more important enabling techs.

6. Do mines really give a chance to discover resources? I know the chance is supposed to be low, but I've tried building mines in every unused tile within my territory and have never found a new resource. Maybe the tile has to be used, but that makes no sense since a used mine will usually already have a resource.

In base Civ/BTS, you need to be working the mine to have a chance of discovering a resource under it.

7. More jungles. Can we build a jungle please? Do they spread?I actually like that jungles are a bit rare - I feel fungus should be the dominant flora in the game, sounds more true to the original game and fits highlights the fungus <-> forest "conflict".
8. It would be neat if, when a forest or fungus spread into each other, it resulted in a hybrid forest.This, however, sounds like a cool idea. It should, however, only happen after the discovery of the Pholus Mutagen or very rarely before that.
9. I was thinking about fungus and kelp on trenches as well (they float, right?), but I guess that's just a mechanical failing since they are both features.Actually, kelp forests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelp_forest) only occur in rather shallow water, that stuff (just like fungus) wouldn't grow in the depths of a trench. Plus, trenches - like ridges - slow down and hinder rampant fungus growths; I think that's a rather important function, as it allows the player to take advantage of that to deal with the fungus problem.

Cheers, LT.

1. Wild (probably Irregular too) still doesn't seem to be working quite right. I can freely enter and pillage rival territory but I cannot attack them. Then can, however, attack my wild units freely.

Please attach a save where this is happening.

2. More fungus! Tile features can coexist with a resource and an improvement, right? So how about putting fungus on the Pholus Ridge. Makes sense to me, and it would prevent people from using the ridge until they understood Xenobiology.

I've changed it so that you also need Xenobiology now to work plots with a planet-providing bonus, such as Monoliths and Pholus Mutagen.

3. Even more fungus!! How about letting us build fungus under existing improvements without replacing them. It's important for uniques like Manifold Nexus, only a timesaver for normal stuff. Or maybe just start the unique features with fungus already present to show Planet's attempt to reclaim the territory.

The Ruins start on fungus. The Manifold Nexus doesn't. One can argue you wouldn't want your central control center to be in the middle of hard-to-control native life, but rather in some safe spot.

5. Another thing about Hybrid Forests, it seems odd to me that the production bonus is dependant upon following the Hybrid civic. It would seem more natural to give the production bonus normally. Maybe even give a food bonus for following the civic.

Hybrid Forests are only meant to be useful under the Hybrid civic.
The Hybrid strategy is supposed to encourage smaller bases than a terraformed ecology. So no food bonus.

10. The ruins icon. I really liked it at first but it looks totally out of place, especially when the borehole cluster, manifold nexus, and garland crater all have a normal picture type icon. Wouldn't the same work for the ruins?

I wouldn't mind that. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8402106&postcount=94) But I'd like to forward you to Lord Tirian, the creator of the current button, on this matter for his opinion.

11. Any plans to add the wreckage of the Unity?

Only if you can think of a cool effect. (Getting a unit you can get from any other unity pod isn't.)

Edit: One more little thing. The resource icons on the science advisor screen that show what techs reveal and enable what resources should be reversed. The yellow bordered ones are much more noticeable to me, which makes me think that they would be better suited for the more important enabling techs.

That's how I did it at first. But, well, I think those yellow highlight frames are rather ugly. So I used them for revealing boni - that way they show up fewer times.

This, however, sounds like a cool idea. It should, however, only happen after the discovery of the Pholus Mutagen or very rarely before that.

Would you really like to go through the micromanagement of having to plant forests and fungus in a mixed distribution, instead of just letting both fungus and forest upgrade automatically? :confused:

By the way Pfeffersack, do you still get the python exception when viewing the tech pedia pages?

Works fine now :)


6. Do mines really give a chance to discover resources? I know the chance is supposed to be low, but I've tried building mines in every unused tile within my territory and have never found a new resource. Maybe the tile has to be used, but that makes no sense since a used mine will usually already have a resource.

As Madman AtW explained, working the mine is required and for me it works occasionally (though I cannot remember that I have discovered anything else the Crystals). The same mechanism is applied BTW to the Farm-line and Commune improvements (also to Field Labs and Marine labs, but here it seems to be pointless, as the tiles those improvemetns can exist on have already ressources); however I never suceeded with them.

I wouldn't mind that. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8402106&postcount=94) But I'd like to forward you to Lord Tirian, the creator of the current button, on this matter for his opinion.After seeing the icon for a while, I agree now. Originally, my plan was making bigger versions of the small icons for the nexus and later for the crater... but it doesn't look as good - they are landmarks and do deserve more than an abstract icon. ;)
Would you really like to go through the micromanagement of having to plant forests and fungus in a mixed distribution, instead of just letting both fungus and forest upgrade automatically? :confused:No, no, I thought in addition to the current mechanism, because I saw potential for interesting developments when terraformer/hybrid borders clash (one side has the forests, the other side the fungus). On a second thought, that sounds like a great deal for the hybrid followers and rather less than great for the terraformers if their forests suddenly start turning into hybrid forests.

Cheers, LT.

No, no, I thought in addition to the current mechanism, because I saw potential for interesting developments when terraformer/hybrid borders clash (one side has the forests, the other side the fungus). On a second thought, that sounds like a great deal for the hybrid followers and rather less than great for the terraformers if their forests suddenly start turning into hybrid forests.

How about the terraformer auto-clear-fungus also auto restores Hybrid forest to forest?

That already happens automatically, to cover situations where Terraformers might capture Hybrid lands.

This looks like the closest thing to a bug report thread:

It's possible for fungal blooms to happen on tiles where your units are standing. No native units are created, but a spawning spot still appears. It's only removed when you move antoher unit onto the tile, or move one away and back.





Some random thoughts:

1. Why do flamethrower units only get attack bonuses against native life, rather than general strength. Since it's a close range weapon, it actually works very well when the enemy has to come to you. Seems like they should have bonuses for both attack and defense.

2. Why are formers consumed to build bunkers? It just seems annoying. They seem to be able to materialise parts out of thin air for mines, drilling platforms, outposts, wind farms, etc. Why not bunkers?

3. Why is it that bunkers have artillery capabilities, but actual artillery units do not? the lack of a ranged attack on armour seems confusing since their unitcombat is specifically named "Artillery". Looking through the datalinks, the upper levels of that line don't appear to have ranged attacks either.

4. I think the Flying promotion should give a bonus to visibility range, like in FFH. It seems odd that my choppers can't see any farther than a guy on foot, even though they should be able to see over intervening obstacles from their airborne vantage point.

5. Why no roads? I know there are mag tubes later, but it is rather a long time. The ability to dig out a dirt path, clear foliage etc, is hardly advanced scientific knowledge.

Great People working in a city should be stacked better. You can only see the first 7 or so.

2. Why are formers consumed to build bunkers? It just seems annoying. They seem to be able to materialise parts out of thin air for mines, drilling platforms, outposts, wind farms, etc. Why not bunkers?I think getting the bunker unit for free (i.e. just former time investment) is too good, so you need to force some sort of investment into it.
3. Why is it that bunkers have artillery capabilities, but actual artillery units do not? the lack of a ranged attack on armour seems confusing since their unitcombat is specifically named "Artillery". Looking through the datalinks, the upper levels of that line don't appear to have ranged attacks either.The datalinks are probably not specific enough (and this could go into the Beginner's Guide), but artillery units are the only land units with access to the range I & II special abilities and with the collateral damage they deal and the accuracy special ability you can pick, they basically fill the role of tanks and siege rolled together in Planetfall. "Artillery" describes the role pretty well, I think.
5. Why no roads? I know there are mag tubes later, but it is rather a long time. The ability to dig out a dirt path, clear foliage etc, is hardly advanced scientific knowledge.Maniac's idea behind it is making terrain more relevant and making defender rush less easy to increase the importance of unit position (compare vanilla Civ, where you can rush half your army to any attack within one or two rounds). Also, it makes travel along rivers and coasts more important (which is considerably faster). Personally, I do like the gameplay changes (though it took a while until it grew on me), but it's very different from CivIV.

And I, for one, miss the look and feel of roads, because it looks "civilised". On the other hand, I do feel roads could be "neat" as a human equivalent for fungus movement of native life - if roads would only benefit artillery units (would even highlight their problems with fungus even more)... I see a niche for roads, but you need to convince Maniac of it! ;)

Cheers, LT.

I think getting the bunker unit for free (i.e. just former time investment) is too good, so you need to force some sort of investment into it.

A cost in energy credits seems like a better option then, I think. there doesn't seem to be much to spend them on as is anyway




The datalinks are probably not specific enough (and this could go into the Beginner's Guide), but artillery units are the only land units with access to the range I & II special abilities and with the collateral damage they deal and the accuracy special ability you can pick, they basically fill the role of tanks and siege rolled together in Planetfall.


It's rather counterintuitive that they have to buy this ability, rather than starting with it. You'd think something with a massive cannon on top would be able to fire it as an inherent thing..

It's rather counterintuitive that they have to buy this ability, rather than starting with it. You'd think something with a massive cannon on top would be able to fire it as an inherent thing..In my opinion, the accuracy special ability could go and become an inherent ability of both, artillery and cruiser units, to make sure that they are used for siege purposes. But on the range spec ab, I disagree.

CivIV/Planetfall plots are *huge* - firing into adjacent plots or even over a range of two plots is more the scale of SRBMs (i.e. up to 1,000 kms range) than artillery cannons.

For me, the Range ability always represented missile launchers, huge long-range railguns and the appropriate targeting equipment and things like that - not just a big artillery-style cannon.

Cheers, LT.

Another thought. Is it intended that we can't build things in kelp? I used to love having kelp under my mining platforms. Now it seems to be either/or, and ocean is a lot less appealing now.

Kelp does get the shaft, I only use it when absolutely necessary. Forests can't be built in/upon either but at least they're worthwhile on their own.

It's possible for fungal blooms to happen on tiles where your units are standing. No native units are created, but a spawning spot still appears. It's only removed when you move antoher unit onto the tile, or move one away and back.

Thanks, I'll check it out. For the record, in case you need to plug a single plot to prevent fungus from entering an area, Bunkers prevent fungal blooms on its plot.

Some random thoughts:

You argue based on realism in all your points. However if you want me to change something, it should be something that improves gameplay, or is more realistic but has no negative effect on gameplay.

A cost in energy credits seems like a better option then, I think. there doesn't seem to be much to spend them on as is anyway

Even though this situation occurs less than in vanilla Civ4, I like the ability to turn formers into something useful (bunkers) after I run out of plots to terraform.

You argue based on realism in all your points. However if you want me to change something, it should be something that improves gameplay, or is more realistic but has no negative effect on gameplay.By the way, the question about accuracy has popped up more than once. And I think with the renaming of the treaded units to artillery units, it has become pretty clear that their purpose is, indeed, attacking human fortifications.

However, I feel that base bombarding is much more fundamental and important than collateral damage - I suspect that's also why you allow access to accuracy rather early. It is a mechanism that makes base assault viable - whereas collateral damage is more "stack busting", which is pretty important too, but not as fundamental in a strategic sense.

So, from my point of view, making base bombardment inherent of artillery and cruiser units would make their role and niche much clearer (that would help new players as well).

Additionally, making collateral damage a special ability (I'd call it "Flechette Ordnance" or "Flechette Guns", as a small homage to the Flechette Defence System, plus real flechette ammunition does collateral damage) allows you to restrict the range II spec ab - since you can only get two, you have to choose between range I + collateral and range I + II, because the ability to do collateral damage to an adjacent square (range I + collateral) is very good already, having it over two squares makes a properly upgraded artillery unit almost equivalent to a bunker for weakening enemies.

Plus, collateral damage is a much "flashier" special ability than base bombardment and could be opened up for other units as well (cruisers, aircraft and perhaps flamethrowers?) - and you could tie barrage-like promos to it, as follow-up.

Anyway, even if you don't want to go with that, I think that the "accuracy" spec ab should be renamed to "siege mortar" or something along these lines to make clear what it's used for.

Cheers, LT.

I made a strange observation in my current game (started under 11d), continued under e) and f)) regarding Deidre and her civic choices. She was one of two factions choosing the green path (Morgan the second - he temporarily ended up with +8 Planet, likely because of starting near the Pholus Rigde and then playing accordingly) and while Morgan stayed in EB for the entire game, Deidre choosed Hybrid in 2249. 26 Years later (2275), she changed to EB. Another 26 Years passed and she switched again to Hybrid. That repeated in 2301, 2327 and - I already expected it here - in 2353. I have attached a save of the year 2253; Deidre's switch happens, when the turn is ended. If other saves are needed - I have saved all autosaves from the beginning on.

So, from my point of view, making base bombardment inherent of artillery and cruiser units would make their role and niche much clearer (that would help new players as well).

I think giving inherent bombard ability to Armor would make the unit too powerful for so little research. Though I could give some inherent bombardment to the cruiser units and Mass Driver/Behemoth.

I indeed plan to turn collateral damage into a special ability. I'm not sure what numbers would fit though. Any suggestions on what inherent collateral damage cruisers and artillery should do, and what the special ability and promotions should give?

Judging from Wikipedia, Flechette seems mostly anti-personnel by the way.

Anyway, even if you don't want to go with that, I think that the "accuracy" spec ab should be renamed to "siege mortar" or something along these lines to make clear what it's used for.

'Heavy Artillery'?

I made a strange observation in my current game (started under 11d), continued under e) and f)) regarding Deidre and her civic choices.

Aha, great! With help from your save I've been able to finally fix this one. :)

Aha, great! With help from your save I've been able to finally fix this one. :)

I'm glad that it was that helpful :)

BTW, another thing regarding civics - if was the first time since a long time ago, that I watched someone else the Yang and me going for Police State (again Deidre - she seems to have both a huge conventional and native army)

Edit:

Is it intended that an aquaformer in damaged state on a seafungus tile prevents other aquaformers on that tile from removing fungus? Because that happens in this save - you cannot use the intact formers, unless you self-destruct the damaged one (the tile is one the right egde of the minimap, in the middle)

I'm still having trouble with that under patch f) - here is the save, try to clean fungus with the non-damaged aquaformer near "Sitz des Urteils"

BTW, another thing regarding civics - if was the first time since a long time ago, that I watched someone else the Yang and me going for Police State (again Deidre - she seems to have both a huge conventional and native army)

That's probably just caused by moving Democratic from a level 2 to a level 4 tech, meaning there's a short window where Police State is the best/only choice. No true solution for Democratic overabundance. :(

I'm still having trouble with that under patch f) - here is the save, try to clean fungus with the non-damaged aquaformer near "Sitz des Urteils"

Woops. Should be fixed in next patch.

ok, So I just noticed three things.

1. Hybrid gives no maintenance costs from number of bases
2. Autarky gives no maintenance costs from distance to capital
3. These two civics are in seperate categories.

this seems a pretty extreme combination.

Why do windmills give better yields in rocky areas?

it's perfectly understandable that they'd be better in high elevation, but not rockiness. If anything, a rough area would slow the flow of wind and make things worse. Windmills work best in high open places, as empty as possible and not near forests.


Also, why can I build in jungles, but not in forests ? And also not in fungus, with a few exceptions apparently
I seem to be able to build field labs in fungus, but greenhouses clear it...

I don't see a logical reason to be able to build in jungle, so perhaps it'd be best to just not make that possible. For that matter, why does jungle exist at all? It seems rather odd next to the fungus, especially the fact that it apparent;y grows naturally on the planet. Is it going to get an art overhaul at some point to look more alien ? Personally, I think the fungus itself adequately fills the role of jungle, and that jungle isn't necessary at all. I'm also finding it odd that if it's next to a river, and I get environmental economics, jungle actually gives me +1 food. In addition to a defense bonus, AND being able to build things in it. It's not only out of flavour, but apparently superior to both fungus and forest

And on that subject, why can't greenhouses be built on fertile land?It seems they can't be built on the rich green terrain that gives 2 food, which leaves me wondering how I'm supposed to produce food in a non-planet-damaging way as the gaians.

Related to planet damaging, it seems that when built in non-rocky areas, mines and forests give the same yield. And since forests also give health, and don't damage the environment, there's really no choice between the two. Forest is clearly superior. Shouldn't the planet damage be a tradeoff for increased yield ?

ok, So I just noticed three things.

1. Hybrid gives no maintenance costs from number of bases
2. Autarky gives no maintenance costs from distance to capital
3. These two civics are in seperate categories.

this seems a pretty extreme combination.

Yeah, that combo was discussed recently for being too powerful and temporarily reduced to 50% for each civic. However, Maniac decided to restore the old values - no clear evidence was founded that the game was more balanced with 50% costs and "no cost" ist just a clearer and cooler effect then a reduction - moreover a reduction which you can have in Planetfall sooner or later anyway (by building all the maintenance reducing facilities you can even get to zero costs). Also Hybrid was tweaked by adding a health penalty (Autarky not, but it never was that overpowered anyway - you can earn a lot of money from foreign trade routes).

Without doubt there are cases where this combination rules, but thats also in extreme cases (very big, not high-developed-but green empire and no friends)

Why do windmills give better yields in rocky areas?

it's perfectly understandable that they'd be better in high elevation, but not rockiness. If anything, a rough area would slow the flow of wind and make things worse. Windmills work best in high open places, as empty as possible and not near forests.

You're wrong on how winds work. I asked the same question long ago, but someone more knowledgeable on the matter than us told that winds suddenly being pushed and pressured upwards because of a hill or so, increases the wind speed at the top of that hill. Or something like that.

And on that subject, why can't greenhouses be built on fertile land?It seems they can't be built on the rich green terrain that gives 2 food, which leaves me wondering how I'm supposed to produce food in a non-planet-damaging way as the gaians.

You're not. ;) A Pro-Planet strategy will tend to lead to smaller bases.

Related to planet damaging, it seems that when built in non-rocky areas, mines and forests give the same yield. And since forests also give health, and don't damage the environment, there's really no choice between the two. Forest is clearly superior. Shouldn't the planet damage be a tradeoff for increased yield ?

You're right that forest is superior. Mines are a tech level 1 improvement. Forest require tech level 3. So there's a window in the early game where mines are the best/only way to get extra minerals from flat terrain. But once you have forests you should only use them on rocky. Unless you have the Unity Mining Laser or so.

I think giving inherent bombard ability to Armor would make the unit too powerful for so little research.

How about giving the artillery line the defensive strikes ability from FfH? It's much less powerful than a ranged strike, but appropriate and useful. And the ranged strikes could still stay available via special ability.

You're right that forest is superior. Mines are a tech level 1 improvement. Forest require tech level 3. So there's a window in the early game where mines are the best/only way to get extra minerals from flat terrain. But once you have forests you should only use them on rocky. Unless you have the Unity Mining Laser or so.

In addition, forests can't be planted under the Enclosed Biosphere civic.

How about giving the artillery line the defensive strikes ability from FfH? It's much less powerful than a ranged strike, but appropriate and useful. And the ranged strikes could still stay available via special ability.

Could be a good special ability I guess. Though I must say defensive strikes have never struck me as particularly exciting in FfH.

You're wrong on how winds work. I asked the same question long ago, but someone more knowledgeable on the matter than us told that winds suddenly being pushed and pressured upwards because of a hill or so, increases the wind speed at the top of that hill. Or something like that.


But that's what I'm saying. Hills = good.


But I'm also saying, rockiness = irrelevant. Why should a grassy ridge give any less output than a rocky ridge. Surely the fact they're on a ridge is what matters.

Also, maniac, you never said anything about Kelp farms. Can I ask why you changed the ability to build on top of them? I always found that to be a rather fun and unique mechanic, that made ocean terraforming feel different. Having to choose a kelp farm OR comething else seems a lot more bland..

Why should a grassy ridge give any less output than a rocky ridge. Surely the fact they're on a ridge is what matters.Because there are no ridges that are "only" grassy, so to speak. ;)

Read up in the Planetfall concepts - each plot is a combination of three factors, elevation, terrain and precipitation.

Elevation -> lowlands, highlands, ridges; these things are, literally, how high the land is, as in "1500m over sea level".
Terrain -> flat or rocky; originally (and in SMAC) there was "roiling" as intermediate step, this represents how rugged/jagged etc. the land is - rocky plots *are* hills, so to speak.
Precipitation -> arid, moist, rainy; self-explanatory.

This means you can see flat ridges as high mesas, whereas rocky ridges are riddled with peaks, very similar to mountains.

At least, that's how I read it in the concepts and how I interpreted SMAC and Planetfall terrain.
Also, maniac, you never said anything about Kelp farms. Can I ask why you changed the ability to build on top of them? I always found that to be a rather fun and unique mechanic, that made ocean terraforming feel different. Having to choose a kelp farm OR comething else seems a lot more bland..Can't speak about the gameplay, but this does sound fun and interesting (especially as you don't get condensators or growing farms for a later boost of ocean nutrient production). :)

Cheers, LT.

Also, maniac, you never said anything about Kelp farms. Can I ask why you changed the ability to build on top of them? I always found that to be a rather fun and unique mechanic, that made ocean terraforming feel different. Having to choose a kelp farm OR comething else seems a lot more bland..

1. While allowing improvements on features is easy, I couldn't find a non-buggy way to let features be planted on plots that already have an improvement, while keeping that improvement. Let alone make the AI understand these combinations are possible.

2. In SMAC you could plant kelp everywhere you could build tidal harnesses/mining platforms. I don't see what's the gameplay difference between always allowing kelp together with other improvements, or never allowing it. Except that allowing it doubles the repetitive former management on the sea.

rocky plots *are* hills

QFT!

Incorporating something like spells or action buttons would be useful. Rather than using the default build system, it could be a "spell" that creates kelp on the tile.

Stuff like that is so insanely useful, it's difficult to see a mod working without it now, having grown used to being able to make a spell for anything in FFH.

I also think that Kelp + another improvement would make sea bases too good. Currently it is perfectly balanced for my taste - you can use the sea as expansion room, if other factions have grabbed all the land, but you either have to look out for the limited spots with a couple of ressources or you will just get mediocre bases.

But maybe Kelp + 2nd improvement could work for the Pirate Faction - if they enter the game later, the have already a significant disadvantage and this cool and powerful ability could help them...

perhaps moving kelp back to some earlier tech, but making it have no benefit until algaculture. Then make Kelp in the tile a requirement to build any other sea improvement.

perhaps moving kelp back to some earlier tech, but making it have no benefit until algaculture. Then make Kelp in the tile a requirement to build any other sea improvement.Holy micro-managing! What's the point of that? Just for the cosmetic effect of having kelp combined with an improvement? Then you could also add the kelp graphic to all ocean improvements and make algaculture a "+1 nutrient for all improvements" tech.

If kelp and improvements aren't mutually exclusive, then planting it has no purpose at all, as you're not making a choice between different options, instead you are just clicking the button, because it's an automatic "must" (since there is no opportunity cost). Which is, for me at least, just pointless micro-managing without any real gain.

Cheers, LT.

I've never really thought much of micromanagement concerns. Isn't that what the Automate Former button is for ? A bit of extra micromanagement for the sake of fun and flavour is usually alright by me though. You could argue why we need all these seperate units, and why not just have an "army" unit without worrying about individual components. but that would be silly :)

having all sea improvements automatically create kelp under themselves would be a fine solution. maybe a little python function whenever one is built that puts kelp on the tile if it's valid. Having kelp actually incorprated in the art isn't a good idea since it adds extra effort to making sea art, for one.

In my current Uni game the first pod I explored spawned a chopper. I used the chopper to explore and it popped 4 choppers in a row (after that I got an xp gain spawn twice in a row with the same chopper). Are choppers are very common pod spawn?

From experience most of the goodies seem to be pretty even, but I don't know where to look to get the actual chance numbers. Maybe there are too many pods, especially since it seems impossible to get a bad result.

Lots of choppers like that seems like the perfect time for an early rush.

Yes, they are. At least, in my last game I had the same experience.

From experience most of the goodies seem to be pretty even, but I don't know where to look to get the actual chance numbers. Maybe there are too many pods, especially since it seems impossible to get a bad result.

Lots of choppers like that seems like the perfect time for an early rush.

True, they came in handy, I used one to explore and the rest to kill mindworms threatening my initial base. I just wish they could buy special abilities.

True, they came in handy, I used one to explore and the rest to kill mindworms threatening my initial base. I just wish they could buy special abilities.

I agree. A re-equip/re-tool spell would be great. First to let an existing unit buy new ability slot(s) that would be available to a new unit, with a cost for each gained slot. It could also be used to let a unit lose it's old ability slots and pick new ones, with the cost increased for each slot lost.

I agree. A re-equip/re-tool spell would be great. First to let an existing unit buy new ability slot(s) that would be available to a new unit, with a cost for each gained slot. It could also be used to let a unit lose it's old ability slots and pick new ones, with the cost increased for each slot lost.

Yeah re-equipping would be cool as well. Hmm, re-equipping should be more expensive than upgrading a unit w/o special abilities though, if not just to penalize the player.

In my current Uni game the first pod I explored spawned a chopper. I used the chopper to explore and it popped 4 choppers in a row (after that I got an xp gain spawn twice in a row with the same chopper). Are choppers are very common pod spawn?

Yes, happens to me as well - not in every game, but the danger is the snowball effect it can create. I remember a recent discussion in the unity pod result thread about new pod outcomes, so more ideas can't hurt - we have less possibilities then in SMAC, because some things are either technically not feasible or don't fit in Planetfall and negative outcomes go against zero in my games.


--------


Some more observations...

1. Would it be possible to auto-wake the bunkers out of the fortify mode, if an enemy comes in range? Currently, you only have the choice between screening the minimap or the log every turn and then to wake the bunker in range of enemies manually (tedious and I tend to miss one sometimes) or to let bunkers in endangered areas skip the turn round for round (even more tedious)

2. I encountered Lal spamming/accumulating tranports in his capital...not sure, if he has a special plan with them and if my save is helpful to track the issue, if there is one at all...

3. The current implementation of Submarines creates a difficulty in dealing with native life from the moment you get hands on Magnetic Acceleration - from then on, every new sub gets Stealth for free and the subs refuse to defend your formers vs. native life - they just get ignored, the aquaformer gets disabled and the IoD/Lurk sits "under" the sub. Beside that this can be a trap especially for newbies (because when subs come up first and replace the foil units/coast guards, they are your new defender on sea), the replacement which show up with the same tech (Destroyers) is not suited for that task - the -50% on native fauna makes it nearly impossible to defend a former on such a tile. I wonder what was the reason behind merging subs and boats into one type (beside making the Photon-Wall ability more useful - but it could also give a bonus against a seperate submarine class; against foils/coast gurads no one needs an extra bonus anyway...)? For my taste the lifespan of "true" boat units like foils and coast guards is short anyway (though that might be a playstyle issue) - allowing the boat units with their retrictions through the entire game would be the best solution for the submarine problem, IMO.

4. Governors sometimes seem to be very unwilling to grow cities which still have a lot of unused health/happiness (also, I didn't played a green strategy, so growth is important) - you have to set the emphasize to food then to get them into working
enough food-rich tiles. It isn't a big issue for me, but hopefully the AI does not suffer from this (the save shows this behaviour for Großzion - without growth emphssize stagnation; if you enable it, base grows)

Yeah re-equipping would be cool as well. Hmm, re-equipping should be more expensive than upgrading a unit w/o special abilities though, if not just to penalize the player.

I agree, that's why I proposed a cost to strip abilities in addition to the cost to select new abilities.

1. Would it be possible to auto-wake the bunkers out of the fortify mode, if an enemy comes in range?

The Sentry ability worked for me. Although I guess there could be times when you can see 2 tiles away, but your bunker can't see that far even though it can fire that far. Maybe bunkers should get deep radar for free.

-----------

Ok, so I don't double post, here are some things I noticed in my last game (v11f).

1. Late built cities didn't get magtubes in the city tile. I *think* it stopped after discovering the magtube tech. Using a former to build a magtube in a city worked fine, but it doesn't seem intended to work that way.
2. Do the improved collateral promotions work? I didn't notice a difference.
3. The Ruins icon is not used in the datalinks (still shows the deer).
4. Guerilla 1 promotion should just be Guerilla (since there is no #2).
5. Guerilla 1 promotion is still available (and being taken by barbarian) Isles of the Deep.
6. Librarians generating Hackers doesn't seem intuitive to me. How about Hackers generating Operators or Codebreakers (both seem better than Great Hacker).
7. Hyperions can upgrade to Cyborgs (oops?).
8. Flamethrower bonuses seem mixed up (should be +all vs natives, +attack vs infantry).
9. Flamethrowers can't take Empath Song (which is logical), but Hyperions start with it.
10. Walkers need a 9 strength or a bonus vs infantry (a Cyborg gets +50% vs infantry making a Cyborg stronger than it's upgrade the Walker).
11. InVitro units should never obsolete, since their concept and build mechanic are different than Mobile Infantry.
12. Can choppers please upgrade to dropships? Seems logical to me, and gives a way to have an already promoted (and therefore defendable) transport later in the game.
13. How much work would be involved in splitting the civilopedia screens for promotions and special abilities?
14. How about Launch Bay instead of Rails. Launch Rails make me think of a big railgun.
15. What enables Resonance Cluster?
16. Missing native combat promotions Larval Mass (#1), Pre-boil (#4). Fiendish (#7) if you don't like one of those.

Formers being consumed to build bunkers is really getting on my nerves,

because my automated formers keep doing it. The AI apparently has no clue about decent strategic placement of a bunker, so it's essentially just a suicide button, and I've got formers randomly vanishing all over the place because they think it's a great idea to build a bunker in the heart of my empire where no enemy will ever reach. So I have to micromanage every former, or live with them randomly dying to accomplish nothing, and thusly having to build far more than I should need.

You give a gun to a monkey, it's going to end up killing itself sooner or later.

So I have to micromanage every former, or live with them randomly dying to accomplish nothing, and thusly having to build far more than I should need.Oh, I agree that the AI has a bit of a thing for bunkers, I just never noticed, because I rarely automate my workers/formers. But I still think that former consumption is a good way to give some "cost" to it - without that, the AI would still spam your territory with bunkers, which would then cost you energy - not really preferable. And giving out bunker units for no cost but time sounds too good (plus, it wouldn't prevent the AI from "locking" up your formers by building bunkers).

I think it's better to somehow get the AI to avoid bunker-spamming. Or just make it impossible to build bunkers adjacent to cities and other bunkers, that should reduce the spam significantly (and leaves the AI with more space for useful improvements... may help the AI players a bit as well).

Cheers, LT.

It's the same problem with forts in every other mod. The AI has no clue what to do with them.

A few steps to help, I think.

1. Block the AI from building them within a city's radius, ever. They should only be built outside of city radii so as not to waste workable tiles

2. make them less likely to be built between your own cities. They're far more useful placed at borders, since enemies aren't likely to appear within your territory, fungal blooms aside.

3. Make automated formers unable to build them, or add a gameoption to prevent automated formers from building them, same as the one which prevents them removing forest.

Yes, happens to me as well - not in every game, but the danger is the snowball effect it can create.

If necessary I could always remove the unity pod result. But is it really that overpowered? You're just as likely to get a free tech or a Material Supplies for instance. I know what I'd prefer.

I just wish they could buy special abilities.

That seems counter to the comment that they are too powerful.

2. I encountered Lal spamming/accumulating tranports in his capital...not sure, if he has a special plan with them and if my save is helpful to track the issue, if there is one at all...

In that save Lal is no longer building transports in his bases, so the reason for his crazy transport spam has been lost in the mists of time I'm afraid. In your later save Lal has build up a fleet of destroyer escorts for all those transports in UN HQ, so in a future war those transports might see some more action.

3. The current implementation of Submarines creates a difficulty in dealing with native life from the moment you get hands on Magnetic Acceleration

Hmm, I could also make aquaformers invisible under the Enclosed Biosphere civic.

Have you tried using the Sea Patrol command by the way? Don't know if it works for invisible units, but it's worth a testing. Tell me the results!

4. Governors sometimes seem to be very unwilling to grow cities which still have a lot of unused health/happiness

Nothing mysterious going on. To grow, the base would have to stop working that uranium mine. The AI just thinks that 2 minerals and 2 energy are more valuable than one nutrient in the base. In this particular case the AI is probably wrong to think so, but it would be rather complicated for little gain to make the AI smarter in this regard.

1. Late built cities didn't get magtubes in the city tile. I *think* it stopped after discovering the magtube tech. Using a former to build a magtube in a city worked fine, but it doesn't seem intended to work that way.

I'll try to pay more attention to this while playing, but at least in the code I don't see anything matching with your thoughts.

2. Do the improved collateral promotions work? I didn't notice a difference.

They may not be powerful enough. For instance I've heard people say that it's always better in vanilla civ to choose a combat promotion rather than a barrage promotion, even for collateral damage. I'm always willing to try out suggestions for better collateral damage boosts for these promotions.

3. The Ruins icon is not used in the datalinks (still shows the deer).

No problem here. :dunno:

4. Guerilla 1 promotion should just be Guerilla (since there is no #2).
5. Guerilla 1 promotion is still available (and being taken by barbarian) Isles of the Deep.

I'll ask Lord Tirian if he wants to make a special ability and native promotion button for them. I'll change the current situation then.

6. Librarians generating Hackers doesn't seem intuitive to me. How about Hackers generating Operators or Codebreakers (both seem better than Great Hacker).

I'm not especially fond of the Hacker unit name, but I'd like to keep Librarian. Nice to have that reference to SMAC IMO.

7. Hyperions can upgrade to Cyborgs (oops?).
10. Walkers need a 9 strength or a bonus vs infantry (a Cyborg gets +50% vs infantry making a Cyborg stronger than it's upgrade the Walker).
11. InVitro units should never obsolete, since their concept and build mechanic are different than Mobile Infantry.

Hmm, I think I'll move the Cyborg to Biomachinery, and the Mobile Infantry to Orbital Engineering, and change their stats accordingly to address these issues.

I'll remove the ability to build InVitros with food. At some point I'll add the ability to draft the Genite->InVitro->Cyborg line, so you'll still be able to turn food into these units in a way.

8. Flamethrower bonuses seem mixed up (should be +all vs natives, +attack vs infantry).

I don't see why.

9. Flamethrowers can't take Empath Song (which is logical), but Hyperions start with it.

Yes, I don't want terraformers to feel the need to research Centauri Empathy to combat native life effectively. (Hmm, perhaps I should allow Plasma Shard for cruisers)
Biofuel is on the research path of both Terraformers and Hybrids. For Terraformers Empath Song just means another +25% psi attack, as they can't capture native life. For Hybrids this is a rather cool unit IMO as it already starts with inherent capturing ability.

12. Can choppers please upgrade to dropships? Seems logical to me, and gives a way to have an already promoted (and therefore defendable) transport later in the game.

I've also thought of that. Since Rotors are combat units however, Dropships should then also be able to attack. This may look weird as the Dropship graphic doesn't have weapons.

13. How much work would be involved in splitting the civilopedia screens for promotions and special abilities?

I can't remember now, but I investigated this matter back when I wanted to add a Planetfall Concepts pedia page. Since I then decided to recycle the BtS Concepts page rather than create a new page, I guess the process must be rather complicated or time-consuming. So while I too would like a seperate page for special abilities, I won't spend time on that anytime soon.

14. How about Launch Bay instead of Rails. Launch Rails make me think of a big railgun.

That's the idea. ;)

15. What enables Resonance Cluster?

If nothing is mentioned, no tech is required. That resource is renamed to Planet Pearls by the way in the next patch.

16. Missing native combat promotions Larval Mass (#1), Pre-boil (#4). Fiendish (#7) if you don't like one of those.

Larval Mass doesn't make sense as a promotion IMO. And I think it's silly to call a promotion or achievement Pre-Something. For instance you'll also never see me call a tech in Planetfall Pre-Sentient Algorithms.

Formers being consumed to build bunkers is really getting on my nerves,

Perhaps I could recycle the "Workers leave forests alone" option to disable bunker construction?

1. Block the AI from building them within a city's radius, ever. They should only be built outside of city radii so as not to waste workable tiles

I'll certainly review bunker building logic at some point. Probably the major reason why the AI builds bunkers in Planetfall though, is the +1 nutrient it gives. That's useful since farms require fresh water, and greenhouses can't be built on rainy. So building them within your city radius is a good idea. Bunkers are also good at defending against native life. Here too they're more useful when close to the base causing eco-damage.

I added the FfH code for defensive withdrawal a couple days ago, but I don't feel inspired for a name for the special ability that could give this benefit. Any suggestions? I'd allow the special abllity for Cavalry and Boats. I'd probably give the ability an equal amount of normal offensive withdrawal.

Hey, how about Librarian --> Thinker? Thinker is a little goofy to me too, but it is in SMAC.

And the problem with Isles taking guerilla is that (I think) there's no way for them to fight on rocky terrain.

I added the FfH code for defensive withdrawal a couple days ago, but I don't feel inspired for a name for the special ability that could give this benefit. Any suggestions? I'd allow the special abllity for Cavalry and Boats. I'd probably give the ability an equal amount of normal offensive withdrawal.

Countermeasures. You could use ECM (Electronic CounterMeasures) if you want something referenced in SMAC.

OT: Flanking has always bugged me, as it makes no sense. The ability to attack your opponents' flanks really has nothing to do with withdrawing. In fact, if your opponent rallies to your attack (which is basically what happens when you have to withdraw) then it should be even more difficult to retreat.

How do CounterMeasures lead to offensive and defensive withdrawal chance?

In any case, that name is already taken: I have plans to use the ECM name for another special ability: it would temporarily disable Artillery units from attacking, like (IIRC) the FfH Charm Person spell.

Countermeasures includes stuff like smoke.

I don't see why

Mind worms are a mass of small living organisms, so it makes sense that bullets and other normal weapons wouldn't be very effective. Fire on the other hand, is especially good at countering exactly this sort of enemy, since fire can flush out things in cover, and it envelops a wide area, charring things within, large or small.

But you don't like realism arguments, so from a gameplay perspective:
Psi combat already favours the attacker, quite substantially. And thusly, being on the defensive end of it is where you encounter the most problems. Flamethrower units are, as you've stated before, the anti native line. So why do they only get a bonus in the area that it's not really needed (attack) and not where it's needed most (defense).

Or, to put it succinctly, because they don't currently do the job they're supposed to do.

I looked "hard" at the new tech tree and there are a couple of techs that I don't really like, mainly the names and how they are linked, it all seems a bit random to me. So here's basically a big list of flavour quibbles, feel free to ignore them! :p


Magnetic Acceleration: Too similar to Mass Driver (which has the cooler name), both are things used to make things go fast and in a direct tech line. This really feels a bit strange. Proposed name: Superstring Theory or Field Mechanics - basically finding an unified field theory, allowing you to fully understand the principles of electromagnetism (and more). The mass driver would then be a way more industrialised version developed on that basis.
Antimatter: First of all, I don't like techs that have the name of a material, the knowledge of creating it is the actual tech and often has more applications. Proposed name: Quantum Manipulation (all the Quantum-techs of SMAC rolled together) or Matter Editation (directly from SMAC), allowing you to generate antimatter from normal matter as "perfect" energy storage (or weapon) by changing the fundamental properties of atoms/matter directly instead of random smashing, like in current accelerators.
Pressure Dome: Has the same name as a building, I dislike that (especially because it gives more than the building). Proposed Name: Silksteel Alloy - yeah, it's a material, but nostalgia makes this one pass! :lol: Fits perfectly for some material that is used for deep sea domes, vehicles etc. and mirrors the early appearance in SMAC and that people are doing real-world research on similar materials.
Silksteel Alloy: Because the name would go to the current pressure dome... Proposed Name: Supertensile Solids (the nostalgia entry, which really means Carbon Nanotubes) - that would also make sense leading to Nanites, which use the skills acquired here to manufacture them as well and explains the Nanominiaturization prereq. I'd go for Nanometallurgy here, but that's one tech too much starting with "Nano-". But I don't like that it's a material name again.
Kinematics: It's all about the sea... but somehow not really fitting. Since it's also part of the industrial techs (which got a bit underrepresented in the new tech tree), I propose as name Matter Compression or Hyperpressurization (which is long, but I imagine that matter compression might sound too generic for you) - sounds like a slightly generic industrial process that helps with generating new stuff, adapting to the sea and becomes a prerequisite for other industrial techs.
Degenerate Neutronium: This is a strange name, neutron stars are made of degenerate matter - it's the so-called degeneracy pressure that keeps it from collapsing into a black hole! Since it's derived from the physics tree as well, I'd propose calling it Matter Transmission and I'd also make it an industrial tech. With instantly transmitted matter, you can build things faster, don't have to care about transport etc., allowing new possibilities of construction, very industrial, I think. Matter Transmission also makes sense for the follow-up techs.
Stable Neutronium: Again, a material name... what about (N-)Space Compression, again a SMAX name (I'd also drop the rather nonsensical "N-") and I'd make it an industrial tech - now you can manufacture space! And have things that are bigger on the inside - the leviathan would be a bit of a TARDIS then... small, lightweight and fast, but inside an entire army and weapon arsenal could fit in.


That would also mean that a couple of spec abs would need to be shuffled around - the nanometal armour would fit (effect-wise) the silk steel alloy better anyway, whereas self-repairing (the current silksteel armour) sounds more like some sort of nanometal.

Again... all of this are flavour quibbles, feel free to disregard them or to shoot them down! (because that way, I at least get to hear the reasons for the current names, which often helps)

Cheers, LT.

I added the FfH code for defensive withdrawal a couple days ago, but I don't feel inspired for a name for the special ability that could give this benefit. Any suggestions? I'd allow the special abllity for Cavalry and Boats. I'd probably give the ability an equal amount of normal offensive withdrawal.

"Strategic Retreat"? ;)

Fallback?

Regroup?

The Sentry ability worked for me. Although I guess there could be times when you can see 2 tiles away, but your bunker can't see that far even though it can fire that far. Maybe bunkers should get deep radar for free..

Thanks for the advice. I just hadn't though of that command - indeed, it works (though the bunker gets often already woken, when the native life is still one tile out of reach - then you have to skip a turn nonetheless, but it's a least better then nothing)


Hmm, I could also make aquaformers invisible under the Enclosed Biosphere civic.

So that native life wouldn't be able to attack them (or would it mean that subds start to defend them again?). The former would be too powerful and not very intuitive, IMO (factions with EB can still pollute the planet and upset its "immune system"). Also, why only under EB? The problem exists for Terraformers and Hybrid (for them to alesser extend, of course) as well.


Have you tried using the Sea Patrol command by the way? Don't know if it works for invisible units, but it's worth a testing. Tell me the results!

I tried it and failed, also with the Sentry command Keeper_GFA has suggested for my bunker problem. You can test it yourself, if you load the save I have attached (set the Aquaformers W of Noah's Regenbogen to either Senty or Sea Patrol and it will still get killed in the next interturn)


They may not be powerful enough. For instance I've heard people say that it's always better in vanilla civ to choose a combat promotion rather than a barrage promotion, even for collateral damage. I'm always willing to try out suggestions for better collateral damage boosts for these promotions.

Yes, there was a calculation bug before the BTS v3.17 update (which also removed the combat promotion line for artillery units under stock rules). I will pay closer attention the next time I use ratillery in PF and have the chance to promote it with barrage or something else...


I added the FfH code for defensive withdrawal a couple days ago, but I don't feel inspired for a name for the special ability that could give this benefit. Any suggestions? I'd allow the special abllity for Cavalry and Boats. I'd probably give the ability an equal amount of normal offensive withdrawal.

Some random ideas (I used the Moo3 as an inspiration, as it has a lot of terms for the different ground assault and defense tactics you can use):

- Evade/Evasion
- Limited Resistance
- Feint or Ruse
- Manoeuvrable

"Harrass" (in the sense of attacking continously) would BTW another candiate for a "Blitz"-style promotion or special ability.

So why do they only get a bonus in the area that it's not really needed (attack) and not where it's needed most (defense).

Or, to put it succinctly, because they don't currently do the job they're supposed to do.

I disagree that the psi attack bonus is not needed. Assume the common situation that the worm is on fungus and that the Flowering Counter is at 30, and without any attack bonus you'd be fighting at a 15% disadvantage! Then throw in a penalty for a negative Planet Attitude etc etc..

Also think of human factions using native life. Making flamethrower too powerful might leave the Hybrids military too powerless.

I looked "hard" at the new tech tree and there are a couple of techs that I don't really like, mainly the names and how they are linked, it all seems a bit random to me. So here's basically a big list of flavour quibbles, feel free to ignore them! :p

Magnetic Acceleration: Too similar to Mass Driver

Yes, but then again, with the exception of the Stealth ability which is placed at Magnetic Acceleration for this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive) reason, all the stuff at Magnetic Acceleration and Mass Driver are applications of the Mass Driver. Giving it an IMO vague and general name like the ones you propose, loses that connection. I'm not particularly fond of the name myself, but it's still better than calling them Mass Driver I & Mass Driver II.

Antimatter:

I don't dislike material names. Plus I like short and punchy names over longer ones. Hence I still prefer Antimatter over the ones you propose.

Pressure Dome:

To me it seems more intuitive that Pressure Domes are required for sea colonies than a fictional material. Hence I prefer Pressure Dome.

Silksteel Alloy:

This tech is renamed to Nanotubes in the next patch for the record. Yeah, another materials name. :mischief:

Kinematics:

I don't see why Kinematics doesn't fit for an industrial tech. For the Industry interpretation Kinematics can refer to advanced robotic arm movement etc. A better understanding on how to replicate complex movements in robotics. For the naval interpretation Kinematics refers to a better understanding on how to harness the kinetic energy of waves (it enables the Tidal Harness).

Degenerate Neutronium:

Yeah, I don't like the Neutronium names. The end of the physics theme will also undergo a revision at some point (if I have some inspiration on what to change it to...) Matter Transmission sounds like a good possible name. I've been wanting to enable Dimensional Gates one tech earlier than the Subspace Generator. Matter Transmission sounds like a good place for them. On the other side, I don't see how the current military applications of Degenerate Neutronium fit into Matter Transmission.

Since you'd like to change the tech to the Build theme, do you have an idea for a concrete builder effect for this tech? I'm kinda uninspired in this area. I'm now happy with most buildings after the changes in the recent patch, but there are still a few I don't like: Living Refinery, Antimatter Reactor, Singularity Inductor. Unless people have some cool builder ideas, I'm currently feeling more inclined to remove buildings rather than add more.

So that native life wouldn't be able to attack them (or would it mean that subds start to defend them again?). The former would be too powerful and not very intuitive, IMO (factions with EB can still pollute the planet and upset its "immune system").

I don't see why it would be overpowered. Native life can still pillage the improvements the aquaformer builds, so you'd still need a defensive fleet. It would just remove the annoyance of having to babysit aquaformers.

Also, why only under EB? The problem exists for Terraformers and Hybrid (for them to alesser extend, of course) as well.

Boat units only get Stealth under the Enclosed Biosphere civic.

I tried it and failed, also with the Sentry command Keeper_GFA has suggested for my bunker problem. You can test it yourself, if you load the save I have attached (set the Aquaformers W of Noah's Regenbogen to either Senty or Sea Patrol and it will still get killed in the next interturn)

Yeah you're right. :(

I disagree that the psi attack bonus is not needed. Assume the common situation that the worm is on fungus and that the Flowering Counter is at 30, and without any attack bonus you'd be fighting at a 15% disadvantage! Then throw in a penalty for a negative Planet Attitude etc etc..

Also think of human factions using native life. Making flamethrower too powerful might leave the Hybrids military too powerless.

I do see your point, but I'd also say the current situation isn't adequate - they're no better at defending against native life than any other unit.

Two ideas:

1. Give them a smaller defense bonus than their attack bonus. 10-15% or so.
2. Give them a moderate/large defense bonus 25-40%, but make flamethrower units unable to take hypnotic trance. Then they'd be able to do naturally what other units need to use an ability for, but without having much/any more overall potential power.

Can someone explain how the planet attitude system works?

I'm playing a gaian game currently. And having focused almost exclusively on the "planet Empathy" tech path, I now have hybrid forest and communes everywhere. Most of my bases have 12-20 positive planet attitude. The Holy city of Voice of Planet has close to 60. Only one, just one of my bases, is anywhere close to negative, with a positive planet rating of 5.

But my overall planet attitude is still hovering around 7. I thought it was supposed to be an average? The actual average of all my bases is close to 20. The planet attitude isn't reflecting that.


And as an aside, despite sacrificing so much to become a friend of the planet, IODs still keep eating all my aquaformers. Could there maybe be some AI tweak that makes them less likely to attack people with positive planet scores? It seems kind of wierd that having positive planet attitude doesn't actually make the planet more friendly, but just makes it easier to kill them. I'd rather it stop trying to kill me.

Can someone explain how the planet attitude system works?
...
I thought it was supposed to be an average?

It's an average of your total Planet Attitude points earned each turn over the entire game. If you mouseover the green heart on the main screen, it'll break it down more for you.

And you have way too much positive PA. Build some boreholes dammit! :D

I don't see why Kinematics doesn't fit for an industrial tech. For the Industry interpretation Kinematics can refer to advanced robotic arm movement etc. A better understanding on how to replicate complex movements in robotics. For the naval interpretation Kinematics refers to a better understanding on how to harness the kinetic energy of waves (it enables the Tidal Harness).Mainly because it's so closely associated with Newtonian mechanics. I know that newer developments are sometimes associated with the term, but it really makes me think of school and first year university.
The end of the physics theme will also undergo a revision at some point (if I have some inspiration on what to change it to...)Actually, a big part of the physics tree is bothering me (no doubt due to my field of study... :mischief: ). I don't really get a feel of "progress" out of it, it looks a bit random to me, unlike other trees where I get the feel of progress (for example Neural Grafting -> MMI -> Personality Transcription, the centauri techs and how they meet with the genetics and computer tree, the industry tree from industrial base -> automation -> nanominiaturization -> nanites).

Basically, it's all about rediscovering current knowledge (up to nuclear physics), then a bit of progress (superconductures, plasma chemistry) - then deals with applied magnetics twice, goes to fusion (another - at least partial - rediscovery), gets to antimatter (which is well understood, this is "just" at a larger scale)... and then it goes crazy, goes to warping space and time!

Makes it kinda weird to me and not sufficiently "shiny" (to me, a tech must sound like a big step ahead, it makes it more fun discovering them).
Unless people have some cool builder ideas, I'm currently feeling more inclined to remove buildings rather than add more.What is interesting is the ability of buildings to add some yields to all bases, in a (possibly) cumulative fashion.

For example, matter transmission could allow you to build something like a Asteroid/Moon mining station (in SMAC, there was the Nessus Mining Station) - that could add hammers to all bases at once (perhaps as percentage or as absolute hammer yield - or make it a national wonder that gives all aerospace complexes a hammer yield). Would work for energy and nutrients as well and I miss the orbital stations, putting them in as faction-wide boosters for aerospace complexes sounds like a good way to get them back.

Another interesting effect might be a building that allows you to get energy or hammers from units dying in the base (whether it's due to combat or manual deletion).

New influence buildings are always welcome - the lack of them at the start is fine, but later on having some extra buildings with that effect would be cool.

Buildings that cut down the upgrade costs of units (whether in the base or in general). I'm speaking about a small discount, like 25% to minimize exploits - or even make the basic upgrade more expensive first.

Not so much of a builder effect, but something that might be neat in general, would be a building increasing the sight radius of units in the base by +1 square (perhaps you could call it "Satellite Network" and add in an influence effect as well?).

Buildings that increase defence or decrease nuke/bombing damage are possible nice additions that can "piggyback" on other buildings as side purpose.

Something could specifically boost less common things - secret project build rate, unit build rate, give things free promotions - basically a lot of the things that traits in vanilla Civ do.

Buildings similar to the Cloudscoop, giving you access to certain resources (possibly even unique ones?) or buildings that act in a similar fashion to cooperations, giving you a bonus based on the number of resources of a type you control.

More buildings that add to the yield of specific tile improvements, like the bioreactor and the solar power transmitter. For example, matter transmission could boost the yield of boreholes and mines. Or get other bonuses from tile improvement they usually don't have, like outposts could start giving you hammers/energy (instead of just food) and similar things. Such a building could also be a transit system (would need to come earlier, though).

Some buildings could also improve upon religions. VoP is currently the big one with associated buildings, edenism has some, the rest is a bit sidelined.

Another interesting idea might be a building that has effects based on your diplomatic relations, like +1 happiness or GPP per open borders agreement (could be a good unique building for the peacekeepers).

Or stuff that (eventually) leads to an economic victory! ;)

Hope there is some food for thought in there! :)

Cheers, LT.

I don't see why it would be overpowered. Native life can still pillage the improvements the aquaformer builds, so you'd still need a defensive fleet. It would just remove the annoyance of having to babysit aquaformers.

It could save factions following EB some expenses - I tend to lose quite a couple of formers in my game. But maybe that boost for EB wouldn't be so bad, as it is arted so weak...

Boat units only get Stealth under the Enclosed Biosphere civic.

Now that you say it, I saw it mentioned in the EB description - before I missed it out, because I mainly rely on the changelog for finding out what's new.

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Thermobaric Missiles

I like the idea behind this unit and it has a nice niche use - they are perfect for weaking fungal towers with their crazy defense boni (other wise you sometimes have to sacrifice a couple of units to just to do the first scratch to their health). In other situations they are just too expensive for my taste - you can just weaken one opponent (no collateral damage), they are one-time only and cost 60. An interceptor can easily cause the same damage and stays alive. They can be lethal, but it only happens against already almost dead enemies and then 60 hammers are too much again...

For example, matter transmission could allow you to build something like a Asteroid/Moon mining station (in SMAC, there was the Nessus Mining Station) - that could add hammers to all bases at once (perhaps as percentage or as absolute hammer yield - or make it a national wonder that gives all aerospace complexes a hammer yield). Would work for energy and nutrients as well and I miss the orbital stations, putting them in as faction-wide boosters for aerospace complexes sounds like a good way to get them back.

I have... mixed feeelings about the orbital stations. They were kind of strange, in that you could build them infinitely, and essentially get infinite amounts of everything. It kind of felt like cheating to build them. They just seemed too easy.

Another interesting effect might be a building that allows you to get energy or hammers from units dying in the base (whether it's due to combat or manual deletion).


Recycling Tanks. Tertiary function


Buildings that cut down the upgrade costs of units (whether in the base or in general). I'm speaking about a small discount, like 25% to minimize exploits - or even make the basic upgrade more expensive first.

Skunkworks :)

Not so much of a builder effect, but something that might be neat in general, would be a building increasing the sight radius of units in the base by +1 square (perhaps you could call it "Satellite Network" and add in an influence effect as well?).

There was something like this in SMAC. something along the lines of "Geosynchronous Survey Pod"
It'd have to be a lot more than +1 though, since that distance becomes pretty meaningless once culture expands. I'd say, make it give bunkers only (for simplicity) a massive boost to visibility. like +6. And if possible, make it ignore LOS rules on terrain, so you could see over intervening hills and such.

Buildings that increase defence or decrease nuke/bombing damage are possible nice additions that can "piggyback" on other buildings as side purpose.

Do we have the Tachyon Field yet ?

Buildings similar to the Cloudscoop, giving you access to certain resources (possibly even unique ones?) or buildings that act in a similar fashion to cooperations, giving you a bonus based on the number of resources of a type you control.

I'd like to see the Nuclear Reactor give X amount of energy for every fuel resource you have. That'd be neat.

Hmm, why can't solar panels be built on rainy ridges? What am I supposed to do with all these rainy ridges that I can't put hybrid forests on ? Why give solar panels a bonus for being built on ridges, but not allow them on fertile ridges ?

I have... mixed feeelings about the orbital stations. They were kind of strange, in that you could build them infinitely, and essentially get infinite amounts of everything. It kind of felt like cheating to build them. They just seemed too easy.Infinite build really *felt* bad (I think it is possible to balance, if you account for the fact that there is a limit - time and opportunity cost - but that's tricky). For Planetfall, I'd rather see one orbital station of each type per city, implemented as straight building (with aerospace complex as prerequisite) or national wonders representing satellite networks.

I just like the feel of really going into space and really want to have satellites hovering above the cities. ;)

And it sounds really Enclosed Biosphere-like to say "Bugger you, Planet, I'm off here, I'll grow my food in space!".
I'd like to see the Nuclear Reactor give X amount of energy for every fuel resource you have. That'd be neat.Oh, that sounds neat - then you could move the health benefits around to the various other buildings and give them more reason to exist.

Cheers, LT.

Locusts of Chiron don't start with Flying.
It kind of takes the coolness out of having an army of flying mindworms, when theyre just more like "fairly fast mindworms". They can't even benefit from fungus movement bonuses, and seeing them take the long way around to get up and down from ridges just looks silly.

I hope this isn't intended

Planes seem a bit underpowered. Too easily shot down, and bunkers don't even seem to take any damage when they do it.

AA tracking on bunkers, and interceptors in the city, made my planes pretty useless.
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On another note, I'm not too fond of the artillery duelling mechanic. It seems like I can bombard a target, and somehow end up losing a bunker or mass driver without even causing damage. Both parties should always take damage at least. And it doesn't make much sense that Spore Launchers can fight against artillery units in that manner, but without actually having a ranged attack of their own. Why can't they learn Range or some native equivilant ?

Same issue with armour, sort of. IT doesn't make sense for them to be able to fight artillery without having Range, but it seems to be an inbuilt ability. I think that ability should be a part of the Range I special ability.
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And missiles, just suck. They don't do collateral damage, and are entirely capable of nothing at all. It makes no sense that bomb and strike are seperate actions for a missile.
I think it'd be better if they damaged both units AND improvements in the tile, with a single action. And that they cause collateral damage to 4-6 units on the tile, rather than just one.

Also, there seems to be a problem with target prioritisation. I had a missile strike on a bunker utterly ruined, because my enemy decided to fortify that bunker..... with a scout patrol. A single measly strength 2 scout patrol, this is on turn 400 mind you, when they have behemoths, InVitros and Helions running around, and somehow it got picked as the priority target for airstrikes over an undamaged Bunker III, making it impossible to attack the bunker without wasting several missiles on that first. Given their size, and inability to maneuver out of the way, it seems like bunkers should always be the priority defender.
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After finding most conventional military options rather lacking in various ways, as detailed above, I eventually just opted to rape that base with locusts instead, which worked wonderfully. Psi Combat kind of feels like cheating since enemy strength is pretty much irrelevant..

I do see your point, but I'd also say the current situation isn't adequate - they're no better at defending against native life than any other unit.

I don't mind that. Psi combat is all about getting the initiative.

Actually, a big part of the physics tree is bothering me (no doubt due to my field of study... :mischief: ).

I've tried my best, but it's kinda hard to come up with stuff that works both for realism and gameplay. Also, everyone has a different background, so there will always be something that bugs anyone.

Personally I don't feel something like Field Mechanics or Hyperpressurization is better though. Those just sound like vague meaningless names to me. Where possible I prefer concrete names.

goes to fusion (another - at least partial - rediscovery), gets to antimatter (which is well understood, this is "just" at a larger scale)

We have commercially viable fusion reactors and antimatter batteries? Why did no one tell me? :mad:

What is interesting is the ability of buildings to add some yields to all bases, in a (possibly) cumulative fashion.

The problem with satellites à la SMAC is that it encourages ICS. That's intended for Hybrids, but not for the other ecological strategies. And Hybrids aren't supposed to b-line to space techs.

New influence buildings are always welcome - the lack of them at the start is fine, but later on having some extra buildings with that effect would be cool.

Some Influence might fit for the Atmospheric Processor and Solar Power Transmitter. But I question the need for more culture buildings. Culture is a commerce type with strongly diminishing returns the more you have of it. So in the case of culture More (culture buildings) is most definitely Less. I'd rather have those few buildings who do provide culture, mean something. Plus you could always use psych chaplains or the culture slider.

Buildings that cut down the upgrade costs of units (whether in the base or in general). I'm speaking about a small discount, like 25% to minimize exploits - or even make the basic upgrade more expensive first.

That would encourage IMO boring micromanagement where an efficient player will try to move all his units to single base for upgrading.

Not so much of a builder effect, but something that might be neat in general, would be a building increasing the sight radius of units in the base by +1 square (perhaps you could call it "Satellite Network" and add in an influence effect as well?).

This would infringe on the already limited use of culture.

Buildings that increase defence or decrease nuke/bombing damage are possible nice additions that can "piggyback" on other buildings as side purpose.

Tachyon Field does that. Perhaps I could give the Solar Power Transmitter that bonus as well?

Buildings similar to the Cloudscoop, giving you access to certain resources (possibly even unique ones?) or buildings that act in a similar fashion to cooperations, giving you a bonus based on the number of resources of a type you control.

That's the only idea I like. :mischief: I keep forgetting I have this as an option. This should be good for four techs worth of builder effects. :D I'd implement that as 'executives' everyone can build though rather than real buildings. That way I can piggyback the corporation code.

Some buildings could also improve upon religions. VoP is currently the big one with associated buildings, edenism has some, the rest is a bit sidelined.

There is *some* strategic synergy with other buildings. Eg Homo Superior and the Rejuvenation Tanks. And if you're low on food, stuff like the Pressure Dome and Ascetic Virtues will still allow your bases to produce some more.

Something could specifically boost less common things - secret project build rate, unit build rate, give things free promotions - basically a lot of the things that traits in vanilla Civ do.
Another interesting idea might be a building that has effects based on your diplomatic relations, like +1 happiness or GPP per open borders agreement (could be a good unique building for the peacekeepers).

Problem with such effects is that it's usually sufficient or most efficient to have only one base with that building.

Thermobaric Missiles

I've given them some collateral damage now. Less than artillery does though. Let's see how it plays out.

Hmm, why can't solar panels be built on rainy ridges?

Too much cloud cover for the solar panels to be economically efficient.

Locusts of Chiron don't start with Flying.
I hope this isn't intended

Woops. Will be changed in next patch (tomorrow hopefully).

AA tracking on bunkers, and interceptors in the city, made my planes pretty useless.[/quore]

I don't see a problem with AAA effectively fending off planes. That's what the special ability is for. :D

[quote]And it doesn't make much sense that Spore Launchers can fight against artillery units in that manner, but without actually having a ranged attack of their own. Why can't they learn Range or some native equivilant ?

Same issue with armour, sort of. IT doesn't make sense for them to be able to fight artillery without having Range, but it seems to be an inbuilt ability. I think that ability should be a part of the Range I special ability.

Hmm, I can't replicate this, or find what would cause this in the code. Could you please attach a save when you encounter it again?

I'd actually prefer Armor (not Spore Launchers) being able to defend against ranged strikes from adjacent plots though. That way the first one to discover ranged strikes doesn't get such a huge military advantage.

Also, there seems to be a problem with target prioritisation. I had a missile strike on a bunker utterly ruined, because my enemy decided to fortify that bunker..... with a scout patrol.

I don't understand how this could have happened. A single scout patrol resisting several missiles? :confused: Would appreciate a save too when you encounter it again.

After finding most conventional military options rather lacking in various ways, as detailed above, I eventually just opted to rape that base with locusts instead, which worked wonderfully. Psi Combat kind of feels like cheating since enemy strength is pretty much irrelevant..

I haven't played with Locusts much yet (when I get at that point in the game, I have many ideas for game improvements which break my save, so I rarely get to the endgame...), so I can't say myself yet if they are ovepowered. Possible 'counterarguments' though: they are pretty much the most expensive unit in the game at the moment, and you were playing the Gaians with a heavy focus on Planet. So it seems only fair that as a result you get powerful Locusts.

And as an aside, despite sacrificing so much to become a friend of the planet, IODs still keep eating all my aquaformers. Could there maybe be some AI tweak that makes them less likely to attack people with positive planet scores?

Aquaformers will be invisible in the next patch.

your unitinfos file is completely untrimmed and uncommented. Kind of a nightmare to work with.

FF has a nice eample of how to do things much neater.

I haven't played with Locusts much yet (when I get at that point in the game, I have many ideas for game improvements which break my save, so I rarely get to the endgame...), so I can't say myself yet if they are ovepowered. Possible 'counterarguments' though: they are pretty much the most expensive unit in the game at the moment, and you were playing the Gaians with a heavy focus on Planet. So it seems only fair that as a result you get powerful Locusts.

I don't come to using them in most of my games as well, but my experience is similar - they are a powerful weapon, but also very expensive. As you said above, PSI combat is about initiative (especially if you target ground units) and Locusts have great mobility - so they can be terror for your opponent. However, using them effectively will often put them in vulnerable front positions and unless you manage to protect them with ground units (unlikely and difficult because of the movement differences) or use them great swarms to have some full-health ones as escort (very expensive - even more because they are considered as ground units in PSI combat, leading to the 2:3 ratio or I am wrong here?), you will lose them quite often and that a drawback if a unit costs 120 hammers to build.

they're only 100 minerals (not hammers) but that is still quite expensive.

But at that stage of the game, for me at least, it just means a 2 turn production time, rather than 1. It's not that big of a deal. Still, they should be able to fly

I play a strategy of producing units only in my biggest cities, which have already built most/all facilities. All smaller bases are devoted towards improving themselves and making buildings, except in times of emergency. I use bunkers and peace treaties for defence, mostly.

I've given them some collateral damage now. Less than artillery does though. Let's see how it plays out.

Why less than artillery? That doesn't make much sense in play terms. Artillery units can fire once a turn, every turn, in addition to being able to defend their tile. Missiles are completely used up after one attack, and they cost the same as a mass driver, I believe.

Given the opportunity cost of actually using them in combat, I think they should be considerably more powerful than artillery. Although on that subject, artillery bombardments are a bit too powerful, I think. Especially from bunkers.



Too much cloud cover for the solar panels to be economically efficient.

Why not just a penalty to output, rather than disallowing them at all ? I like the look of solar panels everywhere. Perhaps it could be tweaked so they'd be no more or less efficient than windmills in flat/rainy areas, to create a fun aesthetic choice between the two.



I don't see a problem with AAA effectively fending off planes. That's what the special ability is for. :D

Actually, disregard that. I wasn't aware that there's a limit on interceptions per turn. i'm kind of feeling the opposite now.

My present gaian game, I'm second in score. In tech, I'm behind. waaaay behind. But I'm still swarming across the landscape, steamrolling the world.

Planet attitude is 8 now, flowering counter 30. MY entire army is composed of two unit types, in massive numbers.
1. Interceptors. I use them to weaken bases.s With fuel nanocells, they have a silly range. They're like artillery without the collateral. Getting intercepted doesn't even seem to be a problem because I have so many. I keep about 20 of them on hand in my main army, and between my 3 best industrial bases, I can create another 8 interceptors every turn. I don't even lose that many in the average attack. And they can rebase to the frontline to provide instant reinforcement.

2. Locusts of Chiron. With the planet attitude, plus a settled Security chief, they're getting 3 free promotions on creation. I give them planetmind, and the first two "combat" promotions. So in addition to having 4 speed and therefore always getting initiative, they have a +35% base strength from the promotions. And since I weaken everything to half health or so via bombardment with planes, the locusts are more or less just mopping up wounded enemies with 80-90% combat odds on a fortified city. I have about 10 locusts, but the swarm is growing constantly because they rarely die.

With this combination alone, I'm tearing the morgan empire to shreds. He has about 7 defensive units per city, including bunkers. But with as much mobility and sheer offensive power as I have, I can easily intercept reinforcements, and crush bases one after another. everything else in my army is pretty much just there to defend captured bases.



I'd actually prefer Armor (not Spore Launchers) being able to defend against ranged strikes from adjacent plots though. That way the first one to discover ranged strikes doesn't get such a huge military advantage. Giving them ranged strikes as an inherent ability would solve the issue nicely, I think. maybe with no collateral until they learn Range I



I don't understand how this could have happened. A single scout patrol resisting several missiles? :confused: Would appreciate a save too when you encounter it again.

I didn't actually try to attack it. But based on experience, it seems to take 2-3 missiles to actually kill things. The main issue is that the scout was defending the tile first, and I wasn't willing to waste a 60 mineral missile on a cheap fodder unit like that.

Actually, disregard that. I wasn't aware that there's a limit on interceptions per turn. i'm kind of feeling the opposite now.

My present gaian game, I'm second in score. In tech, I'm behind. waaaay behind. But I'm still swarming across the landscape, steamrolling the world.

Planet attitude is 8 now, flowering counter 30. MY entire army is composed of two unit types, in massive numbers.
1. Interceptors. I use them to weaken bases.s With fuel nanocells, they have a silly range. They're like artillery without the collateral. Getting intercepted doesn't even seem to be a problem because I have so many. I keep about 20 of them on hand in my main army, and between my 3 best industrial bases, I can create another 8 interceptors every turn. I don't even lose that many in the average attack. And they can rebase to the frontline to provide instant reinforcement.

Yes, planes striked me already as being to cheap recently. I suggested a slight price increase to not disturb the relation to the other units hammer costs and this was implemented, but your report show that it might be necessary to increase the costs even more (and/or to change interception rules, make AAA tracking available for infantry,...) - especially the price relation to missiles is problematic.

I really don't think they should be able to instantly rebase across the world. I'd say there should be a limit on their range, based on their operational range. And if they try to rebase somewhere outside of that, it should take multiple turns to do so, or perhaps just not be possible. Then for example, you'd actually need carriers to take them across the sea, rather than just requiring a carrier once and then rebasing 3000 miles to the first city you capture with every newly built one

I really don't think they should be able to instantly rebase across the world. I'd say there should be a limit on their range, based on their operational range. And if they try to rebase somewhere outside of that, it should take multiple turns to do so, or perhaps just not be possible. Then for example, you'd actually need carriers to take them across the sea, rather than just requiring a carrier once and then rebasing 3000 miles to the first city you capture with every newly built one

Another excellent point :goodjob: Should also apply for missiles - rebase is even more questionable for them, realistic would be only transport by ships - but I guess here interface comfort has to trump realism. Nonetheless, missile rebase should be limited and slowed as well.

Why less than artillery? That doesn't make much sense in play terms. Artillery units can fire once a turn, every turn, in addition to being able to defend their tile. Missiles are completely used up after one attack, and they cost the same as a mass driver, I believe.

Disclaimer: I've never used a single missile in Civ4, so I'm not exactly an expert on the best use of missiles.
Anyway, the reason I added the Thermobaric Missiles was for a niche use: blowing up Fungal Towers, stacks of native life (on fungus), and perhaps Bunkers. (Making locusts extra vulnerable to them might also be a good idea given WarKirby's experiences) My fear is that if missiles are made a very powerful unit, they will, instead of niche, become standard equipment and be used every time to soften up a stack before moving in with the rest of the troops. I fear that might remove a lot of the combat tactics from Planetfall, and just make the victor whoever can throw the most missiles at his opponent from a safe distance. Again, I have no experience with missiles, so I don't know if those fears are grounded.

So I'd like to make thermobaric missiles worthwhile, but only for those couple niche uses mentioned.

Although on that subject, artillery bombardments are a bit too powerful, I think. Especially from bunkers.

In what context did you find this? That is, what did you strike at, or what units of yours did the AI strike? Just asking because there is more than one way to deal with this: weaken their damage, or improve the counters in quality or quantity, or improve the AI if they just don't use the available counters effectively.

Perhaps it could be tweaked so they'd be no more or less efficient than windmills in flat/rainy areas, to create a fun aesthetic choice between the two.

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is etc etc..." :D
Having two things do exactly the same thing doesn't sound appealing to me.

1. Interceptors.

Do you feel there is something in Planetfall which makes air power more powerful here than in vanilla Civ4, or do you feel the problem exists there too?

Several possible solutions here too of course, depending on what exactly the problem is. Eg are air units too powerful, or does the AI just not use the available counters? = AAA and their own air units.

One option is to reduce the maximum damage they can do, at least for the first available air unit. Make them something like the vanilla Zeppelin.

I really don't think they should be able to instantly rebase across the world. I'd say there should be a limit on their range, based on their operational range.

I was actually planning this for some time, but then I reconsidered for the following reasons:

1) By the time you get air units, it also becomes possible to instantaneuosly transport artillery units with psi gates. So I wondered if air units' rebasing ability was really that unbalanced compared to other benefits of a similar tech level. Hell, because of psi gates, limiting the rebase range could make the slower than artillery!

2) Limiting their rebase range could make them too similar to artillery units. Now you have the difference "air units = very mobile, but do less damage than artillery; artillery: less mobile than air, but if you can get them on the right spot they can do much more damage."

Disclaimer: I've never used a single missile in Civ4, so I'm not exactly an expert on the best use of missiles.
Anyway, the reason I added the Thermobaric Missiles was for a niche use: blowing up Fungal Towers, stacks of native life (on fungus), and perhaps Bunkers. (Making locusts extra vulnerable to them might also be a good idea given WarKirby's experiences) My fear is that if missiles are made a very powerful unit, they will, instead of niche, become standard equipment and be used every time to soften up a stack before moving in with the rest of the troops. I fear that might remove a lot of the combat tactics from Planetfall, and just make the victor whoever can throw the most missiles at his opponent from a safe distance. Again, I have no experience with missiles, so I don't know if those fears are grounded.

So I'd like to make thermobaric missiles worthwhile, but only for those couple niche uses mentioned.

You could for a start, not make them invincible to counters. Make them much harder than planes to shoot down, but not impossible. Some other interesting tactical options might be nice, like a missile defense system facility, which makes a base near invincible to missiles, but can be sabotaged by probe teams. Tactics!

Possibly also, make probe teams able to directly target missiles in a stack, and sabotage them. Or rig them to selfdestruct.



In what context did you find this? That is, what did you strike at, or what units of yours did the AI strike? Just asking because there is more than one way to deal with this: weaken their damage, or improve the counters in quality or quantity, or improve the AI if they just don't use the available counters effectively.

In that I can reduce a stack defender to half health with one shot, and weaken everything else in the stack too. It just seems a bit much.

I'd say, reduce the number of units they hit with collateral. I think it's 6 just now, which seems like too much. Reduce their direct shot damage a bit, too. Although it'd be nice to see the damage limit raised so they could potentially kill stupid things that hang around near them too long.


"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is etc etc..." :D
Having two things do exactly the same thing doesn't sound appealing to me.



Do you feel there is something in Planetfall which makes air power more powerful here than in vanilla Civ4, or do you feel the problem exists there too?

Several possible solutions here too of course, depending on what exactly the problem is. Eg are air units too powerful, or does the AI just not use the available counters? = AAA and their own air units.

One option is to reduce the maximum damage they can do, at least for the first available air unit. Make them something like the vanilla Zeppelin.

I'm really not a fan of damage caps. They sacrifice too much realism for me. I'd rather see the damage caps removed entirely, so lethal damage is possible with enough firepower, but have other ways of countering it. I don't think a bombing strategy is bad, per se. It's realistic, and makes sense. But I think it should be harder. require more firepower.

Possible thoughts:


Remove the one intercept per turn, for AAA tracking, etc. Lower the intercept chances a bit to compensate. OR even, make first intercept a high chance, and have the odds of success diminish a little after each attempt in a turn (successful or not).

Change targeting. Rather than automatically attacking the stack defender, make air strikes more random. Since you generally don't get finegrained control when dropping bombs from thousands of metres up. Maybe just have the strike hit any random unit, rather than always the strongest. This would mean it wouldn't be so easy to soften up the strongest defender.

Make bunkers provide defense. Perhaps as an override to the random targeting, if there's a bunker in the tile, then it would always take the hit, overriding random targeting. Also make bunkers have a high resistance, so they take less damage from strikes than normal.

Give air strikes a chance to miss completely. Say the bombs just land in a vacant lot or somesuch, and hit nothing.

Add some other possible effects aside from damage to military units. Like a bomb landing on the perimeter. Knocks of 8% base defense, but doesn't damage any of the units. Or similarly, a random facility gets damaged or destroyed. Or some population is lost due to a bomb landing in a residential sector.

Add a cost to perform an airstrike. 5-20 energy credits, maybe. If you're doing a lot of airstrikes, the cost could add up. Those bombs aren;t just summoned out of mid air. Ammunition costs money!

Make infantry and flamethrowers more resistant to air strikes. Or make tanks weaker. The point being, foot troops can take cover among the ruins. A tank is a big open target.

Make AAA tracking available to infantry units.


1) By the time you get air units, it also becomes possible to instantaneuosly transport artillery units with psi gates. So I wondered if air units' rebasing ability was really that unbalanced compared to other benefits of a similar tech level. Hell, because of psi gates, limiting the rebase range could make the slower than artillery!

I don't have Psi gates yet in the game I mentioned. But I've had the ability to build air units for close to 100 turns now. That's not an inconsequential window of time. It's a matter of whether or not you actually take that path. If this is going to be used as an argument, then how about making rebasing only instantaneous if there's a psi gate at both ends. Otherwise it takes time. Also, don't psi gates have a limit on how many units can be transferred per turn? There's no limit on how many units can rebase between a given pair of bases per turn

2) Limiting their rebase range could make them too similar to artillery units. Now you have the difference "air units = very mobile, but do less damage than artillery; artillery: less mobile than air, but if you can get them on the right spot they can do much more damage."

They already have the massive local mobility, in that they can attack 4-6 squares around. And even if they could only travel that far per turn to rebase, it would still make them a lot faster than tanks. In fact, it would be quite logical to allow them to rebase up to double their operational range. Since the operational range isn't actually how far a unit can travel, but how far they can travel on half a fuel tank, so that they can make it back again.

Currently, the air field (forget the exact name) increases air capacity of the empire by 4. Why not change it so it increases only the local city capacity by 4, and each city can initially base 2 aircraft? Maybe even 1 initially + 3 for the air field...

I'm getting a repeatable CTD here (v11g, Windows XP), save attached. Just load it and hit "end turn", then it crashes (for me, at least).

On the new techtree... I like how it looks on the F6 screen so far - but have to play a bit more. Though I was a bit surprised about the laaaate recycling tanks!

Cheers, LT.

You could for a start, not make them invincible to counters. Make them much harder than planes to shoot down, but not impossible. Some other interesting tactical options might be nice, like a missile defense system facility, which makes a base near invincible to missiles, but can be sabotaged by probe teams. Tactics!

Possibly also, make probe teams able to directly target missiles in a stack, and sabotage them. Or rig them to selfdestruct.

IIRC there's a building modifier to reduce air damage. I could give that to the Solar Power Transmitter?

Such probe team missions are beyond my skills though, and those of the AI to understand.

In that I can reduce a stack defender to half health with one shot, and weaken everything else in the stack too. It just seems a bit much.

So this means you are the attacker. Just asking because an AI bunker ripping your stack of locusts (native units) apart would be entirely intended.

Do you have concrete suggestions for what to change the values to? The relevant values are:
iAirCombat - currently always the same as iCombat
iCollateralDamage - percentage modifier of iAirCombat for collateral damage to the units not directly attacked
iCollateralDamageMaxUnits

I don't want to remove damage caps though. Even with increased counters I expect that would make ranged strikes insanely powerful.

Re air units, after reading your post I had the same idea as edorazio: reduce the air capacity of bases to 2. Or even 1, but then let the Space Elevator increase it by +1 for all bases.

I'm getting a repeatable CTD here (v11g, Windows XP), save attached. Just load it and hit "end turn", then it crashes (for me, at least)

Fixed in patch h.

IIRC there's a building modifier to reduce air damage. I could give that to the Solar Power Transmitter?

Why the power transmitter? It would most logically fit on bunkers and tachyon fields. Maybe also the maintenance bay/assembly hall, to reflect workers repairing damage as it happens.

Re air units, after reading your post I had the same idea as edorazio: reduce the air capacity of bases to 2. Or even 1, but then let the Space Elevator increase it by +1 for all bases.

That seems like a boring solution. Itwill just make industrial might count for less, and city spam count for more. Punishing those who go for a smaller, focused empire, and rewarding infinite city spam.

I'm having a CTD that I can't get past. File attached to this post. 100% reproducible crash before my next turn begins, sometime after pressing enter.

Also, the mod folder should be named "Planetfall v11g" since I started this game on patch G. I did install patch H though - by renaming it back to "Planetfall v11" installing the patch, and then changing the name again to how it is now.

For some reason I can open your save with a normal DLL, but it crashes when I try to load it with a debug DLL. This makes it hard to find the cause for the crash.

As a test, could you please start a new game, just press enter for five turns or so, and attach the save? I'd like to test if I can load that save with a debug DLL.

understood. I have the last 19 autosaves or so from that game as well, backed up somewhere, if you want those

I can load your testsave. Given this, yes, could you plese upload your autosaves? With some luck I could get an assert message which could indicate the cause of the crash.


I've just run a 200 run autoplay myself and 'unfortunately' I don't get any crashes. :(


For the record in case anyone notices is too: Aquaformers aren't invisible. I made a typo which currently only makes aquaformers invisible in blockaded rather than unblockaded territory.

Autosaves: http://www.mediafire.com/?l4fmfyol2mq

Thanks. The first autosave does load with the debug DLL, so that gives some hope for pinpointing the problem.

Equal numbers of mind worms and spore launchers should spawn. I suspect the problem is simply that, because all factions start close nearby, there just isn't all that much fog of war terrain for native life to spawn nearby.

I have in fact recently been thinking to place some mindworms on the map right from the start, but give everyone on all difficulty levels one or two free kills against barbarians - it's a simple XML change. That way there's no negative effect on gameplay (nobody will get killed in the first couple turns of the game), but you do get the story element.

Maybe this could be solved by bringing back the "loaded" IoD's from SMAC? I remember that a part of the Mindworms danger there came from those landed on your shores. Often this happened close to your cities, sometimes even a boarded Sporelauncher bombarded your terrain improvements. This could really spice up things in PF - currently you are pretty save from native life on land (unless of course you have direct fungal blooms there), even if the native life raids constantly your coastal waters. There are also no native locusts, as it seems...? (I remember having seem them occasionally in SMAC, though you had to hurt planet really bad to make it happen). I think this would reduce the number of naval native units a bit...if we should go that route, it might be necessary though to increase somehow the transport capacities of IoDs. 1 without any promotion increasing it could be too small - I would suggest to add +1 capacity to one or two of strength promotions, but that would bite with the Sealurks which are not intended to have a transport function.

Maybe this could be solved by bringing back the "loaded" IoD's from SMAC?

It's somewhere deep on the to-do list.

IoDs would indeed need some way to increase their transport capacity. In SMAC that was increased by morale/lifecycle. Which is cool. But to get the same in Planetfall, I'd need to add a seperate promotion line. Seems a bit hack-ish; would create clutter in the promotion list in the Datalinks etc. :(

***

A question:

Spartan hidden nationality units still have the Spartan promotion. Kinda silly if you see such units attacking you. As a solution I figured I could make the Spartan promotion pickable for all Hidden Nationality units. It should probably be renamed then.

Given the promotion effects, I think Commando would be a nice name. Also fits as the name for a promo that Hidden Nat units have. Of course there's already a Combat promotion called Commando.

So I was wondering, do you guys still like the combat promotions being called Disciplined - Hardened - Veteran...?

Some time ago these promotions were called Combat I/II/III... but they were renamed to get some more of the SMAC atmosphere. Having played with these named for a while now, I must say I don't really like them after all. Reason is: in SMAC each morale level gave a 12% bonus. In Planetfall it's 10%. So the immediate intuition of for instance 'Veteran = +25%" is lost anyway. So I was thinking for clarity's sake it may be best to rename these promotions back to Combat I/II/III. How do you guys feel?

It's somewhere deep on the to-do list.

IoDs would indeed need some way to increase their transport capacity. In SMAC that was increased by morale/lifecycle. Which is cool. But to get the same in Planetfall, I'd need to add a seperate promotion line. Seems a bit hack-ish; would create clutter in the promotion list in the Datalinks etc. :(

The lifecycle effects are the "combat" promotions now. Just stick a +1 cargo capacity on each of those. Or would that cause issues with normal mindworms too?

Some time ago these promotions were called Combat I/II/III... but they were renamed to get some more of the SMAC atmosphere. Having played with these named for a while now, I must say I don't really like them after all. Reason is: in SMAC each morale level gave a 12% bonus. In Planetfall it's 10%. So the immediate intuition of for instance 'Veteran = +25%" is lost anyway. So I was thinking for clarity's sake it may be best to rename these promotions back to Combat I/II/III. How do you guys feel?

I like them how they are. Don't change it back.
Maybe they need new buttons though

Given the promotion effects, I think Commando would be a nice name. Also fits as the name for a promo that Hidden Nat units have. Of course there's already a Combat promotion called Commando.Commando sounds cool and fitting, I'd say go with it.
So I was thinking for clarity's sake it may be best to rename these promotions back to Combat I/II/III. How do you guys feel?Agree with that, their progression isn't very intuitive. It's easy to mix them up and they are not in the right order in the Datalinks, that makes it a bit confusing. Don't like the name "Combat" though. Perhaps name it Morale I/II/III etc.? After all, it was called Morale in SMAC as well. Same for the lifecycle promos - Lifecycle I/II/III etc.?

If it doesn't look too odd, maybe "Morale I - Disciplined" and so on? But I'm afraid that's way too long.

Cheers, LT.

It's somewhere deep on the to-do list.

That's good to know ;)


IoDs would indeed need some way to increase their transport capacity. In SMAC that was increased by morale/lifecycle. Which is cool. But to get the same in Planetfall, I'd need to add a seperate promotion line. Seems a bit hack-ish; would create clutter in the promotion list in the Datalinks etc. :(

Hmm, the lifecycle thing is really the most intuitve thing. But I can't think of an elegant way to get round the hassle it causes for the native life units, which aren't supposed to have transport capacity. Maybe just a single promotion adding +2 space or just always 3 capacity, as long as something better is found....so that issue wouldn't block a quicker implementation.


Spartan hidden nationality units still have the Spartan promotion. Kinda silly if you see such units attacking you. As a solution I figured I could make the Spartan promotion pickable for all Hidden Nationality units. It should probably be renamed then.

Given the promotion effects, I think Commando would be a nice name. Also fits as the name for a promo that Hidden Nat units have. Of course there's already a Combat promotion called Commando.

I like that idea, though I'm not sure if it really helps vs. the described problem - yes, in theory it could be anyone...but how often does the AI create hidden nationality units and if they do, will they sufficiently enough choose Commando as well?


So I was wondering, do you guys still like the combat promotions being called Disciplined - Hardened - Veteran...?

I'm with WarKirby on this. It creates atmosphere and the terms are clear enough to give you an idea who experienced a unit is - a quick glance on the number of stars will tell you exactly.

IoDs would indeed need some way to increase their transport capacity. In SMAC that was increased by morale/lifecycle. Which is cool. But to get the same in Planetfall, I'd need to add a seperate promotion line. Seems a bit hack-ish; would create clutter in the promotion list in the Datalinks etc.

Would it be feasible to make each lifecycle level a new unit, that can be upgraded to (for free) at each experience level or after a victorious combat.


Spartan hidden nationality units still have the Spartan promotion. Kinda silly if you see such units attacking you. As a solution I figured I could make the Spartan promotion pickable for all Hidden Nationality units. It should probably be renamed then.

I was thinking about this as well, and I thought that it would be better for hidden nationality to cause you to lose your faction promotion ... the price you pay for being able to war without being at war. But this problem also exists for the Hive, and losing their faction promotion would actually be a bonus. Is it possible to make the faction promotion icon not visible, but still effective?

So I was wondering, do you guys still like the combat promotions being called Disciplined - Hardened - Veteran...?

I say leave them the way they are now. The new icons make it quite clear what "level" of combat promotions a unit has learned, so I don't think confusion should be an issue.

3:2 in favour of keeping the SMAC names so far.

Something I'd suggest copying over from FF, if the functionality isn't already here. Effectpromotions. Quite simply, promotions that are entirely invisible.

Actually, you should copy over the autoaquire mechanic too. FF has such wonderful tools for that. How we'd solve the HN problem, is to create effect versions of the special faction promos. And have them be auto aquired when you have the visible one, and hidden nationality. Also make them overwrite the visible ones so you don't get the effect doubled.

Another thought I've had regarding the Spartan promotion is that it's too good. The bonuses aren't too big, but there are several of them. How about giving spartan units a free promotion (ala Mages from FfH) and maybe a free unit when a new unit type is available.

I kinda like the idea of Morale/Lifecycle I/II/III. As it still keeps SMAC flavour.

Something I'd suggest copying over from FF, if the functionality isn't already here. Effectpromotions. Quite simply, promotions that are entirely invisible.

How does that work? Wouldn't the unit's Spartanness be immediately revealed when attacking it (it has a first strike) or when the unit suddenly reduces base defenses by 5%?

That is a good point.

Doesn't really seem lke ther'es a way around this. I'd say make hidden nationality lose the spartan promotion.

Some observations from a game with Morgan under the Patch g)-i):

1) National Corporation GP's:
- I assume the lack of executives is intended to keep the per-city-effect?
- The Morgan Mines HQ gets displayed on the main map like if you had founded Buddhism in that city (see screenshot)
- Datalinks say that a Great Tycoon is required to get them - however, you can build them (also?) normally

2) I noticed that a Sporelauncher promoted with City Raider I gets a 20% bonus, when attacking a enemy unit on a tile with an Eden improvement. Is that intended? If yes, it wouldn't be bad to note that in the Datalinks in the Eden entry (and also in the Outpost/Settlement entry, if that should be true for them as well). I have attached a save illustrating this - pick the full-health Sporelauncher in the stack near new Jerusalem and let display the odds vs. the adjacent Believer chopper

3) After attacking and retreating with said Sporelauncher, I runned into another strange issue - at the end of the turn the SL was auto-moved in the tile attacked unsucessfully before (where Miri's chopper was before I killed it in a second attack with my Locust). To reproduce, do exactly the following:
- attack chopper with the full-health SL (don't promote him before)
- attack the with locust, plunder two times
- follow the unit cycle and skip turn/heal every other unit in the stack (not the said SL, but it gets not activated automatically anyway yet)
- move the sub at the other side of the world somewhere...
After that, the unit cycle should be over and much to my surprise the SL made an automatic move into the tile attacked before. I never encountered such behaviour before...

4) The description of the "Spore Cloud" promotion is a bit misleading - "+100% vs. air units" seems to refer to Needlejet Units only, not to Choppers or Locusts. While hat makes sense in terms of the game engine, it might confuse inexperienced players.

Edit: Attachments removed to save space.

1) National Corporation GP's:
- I assume the lack of executives is intended to keep the per-city-effect?
- Datalinks say that a Great Tycoon is required to get them - however, you can build them (also?) normally

Yes.

- The Morgan Mines HQ gets displayed on the main map like if you had founded Buddhism in that city (see screenshot)

I figured it would be better to wait with changing the gamefont until there's a clearer picture what corps there will be in the game.

2) I noticed that a Sporelauncher promoted with City Raider I gets a 20% bonus, when attacking a enemy unit on a tile with an Eden improvement

Are you perhaps confusing with the 20% bonus from being on Highlands, which due to my lack of understanding of a combat-related function I cannot give its own help text?

I noticed btw from your situation that the native life combat modifier isn't displayed when it's the attacker that is native. I've fixed that.

3) After attacking and retreating with said Sporelauncher, I runned into another strange issue - at the end of the turn the SL was auto-moved in the tile attacked unsucessfully before

I can't replicate your situation. With me the spore launcher just keeps its movement point. Regardless, cause is the same and it should be fixed in the next patch.

4) The description of the "Spore Cloud" promotion is a bit misleading - "+100% vs. air units" seems to refer to Needlejet Units only, not to Choppers or Locusts. While hat makes sense in terms of the game engine, it might confuse inexperienced players.

I've changed it to a bonus vs. Needlejets.

Do you have any suggestions re collateral damage strength by the way?

Do you have any suggestions re collateral damage strength by the way?

In regard to special units or in general? I'm currently conquering Lal with the support of a group of Sporelaunchers and they are a blast when attacking a city. The worst case is that the first one or two are in danger to lose, after that you have always odds better then 95%, even if they are wounded themselves. I'm not sure if that just falls under "good strategy" or if it is too powerful, but I'm convinced that CD has to be lowered further, if a change should happen - the thing is that you often do that damage without any risk and the more you cause, the faster that snowball rolls...
That problem exists in Civ4 as well...the Drill Line is just weak to counter that. I haven't tried my luck with ECM in Planetfall yet and I also spotted not many AI units using this, so it is hard to tell if that 50% make a difference.


------------

- I wonder if the new Hive special with the 50% chance for Light-promoted units really works...? In my game all of the Hives Infantry- and Flamethrower units seem to get build normally and they have tons of them...

- Would it be possible to display the revolt danger causes by drones/lacking food like it is done for cultural pressure? That information would be both useful for your own bases as well as for exmaing how effective you spy operations are (or is it displayed and you can just counter the impact of 12 drones by 3 or 4 guarding units?)

- Whats the deal with all the "Bankrupt XYZ" projects in the civilopedia? Are they in for technical reasons or should they somehow cause the Morgan projects to go defunct, if such a base is captured? I had that case, when my city with Morgan Mines and Morgan Entertainment got captured by Lal...the projects seem to work again for the new owner after the resistence period is over (see picture)

In regard to special units or in general?

I'm not sure if Spore Launchers need to be weakened (native life is supposed to be strong on direct attack - as a downside they are vulnerable to ranged strikes), but for the rest all other range strike units are up for change. I have not yet touched collateral damage/ranged strikes by the way. I'd like someone to suggest concrete numbers instead of simply saying collateral damage/ranged strikes needs to be weakened.

I wonder if the new Hive special with the 50% chance for Light-promoted units really works...?

It doesn't. This has been fixed for the next patch.

Would it be possible to display the revolt danger causes by drones/lacking food

Might be tricky. Base chance of revolt is 1/30 per nutrient that is lacking. That more or less gets divided by the the number of garrison units (but more advanced units count for more). However if a revolt happens after all despite a large garrison, then the number of Partisans will be somewhat higher as well depending on your garrison size. So I could probably add a revolt percentage, but it wouldn't mention how many Partisans you can expect.

Whats the deal with all the "Bankrupt XYZ" projects in the civilopedia

Should be fixed in next patch.

I'd like someone to suggest concrete numbers instead of simply saying collateral damage/ranged strikes needs to be weakened.

Fully agree. I just wanted to express that I don't have the feeling that CD needs an increase. Not even for the Thermobaric Missiles - I used it vs. a Fungal Tower and mindworm on one tile and it had a remarkable effect on the victory odds of my following attcks with ground units.


Might be tricky. Base chance of revolt is 1/30 per nutrient that is lacking. That more or less gets divided by the the number of garrison units (but more advanced units count for more). However if a revolt happens after all despite a large garrison, then the number of Partisans will be somewhat higher as well depending on your garrison size. So I could probably add a revolt percentage, but it wouldn't mention how many Partisans you can expect.

A percentage was all I though of :goodjob: Some uncertainty in numbers doesn't hurt!

- I found an issue with Locusts - are they supposed to suffer the amphibious penalty, when attacking from sea? If not, the save below shows the bug. If yes, the save shows a problem with the victory odds calculating over distance (not sure if that can be corrected at all) and I also would suggest then to allow the Flagella promotion for them.
To reproduce: Pick one of the Locusts stationated in U.N-Hilfsstation and let the game display the odds vs. the defender in U.N. Humanitätsbasis without moving. Odds are not bad, no amphibious penalty. Then move the Locusts adjacent to U.N. Humanitätsbasis and let display the odds again - now you get the -50% for an amphibious attack.

- The appearence of defense withdrawal would make a Blitz promotion/special ability as a kind of counter even more interesting...

- Is there are reason for allowing Solar Collectors inside jungle? They are forbidden on any free rainy tile because of cloud density, but they can exist in rainy squares with dense vegetation without removing it at least...?

- I found an issue with Locusts - are they supposed to suffer the amphibious penalty, when attacking from sea?

Nope. Will be fixed in next patch.

- The appearence of defense withdrawal would make a Blitz promotion/special ability as a kind of counter even more interesting...

I'll add such a spec ab one day.

- Is there are reason for allowing Solar Collectors inside jungle? They are forbidden on any free rainy tile because of cloud density, but they can exist in rainy squares with dense vegetation without removing it at least...?

Is that a gameplay or roleplay question? If it's roleplay, this map for instance shows insolation is highest in desert areas and to a lesser degree in tropical areas.

http://www.matthewb.id.au/media/world_insolation_map.gif

Civ4 uses the same (Grassland/Rainy) terrain for both tropical and temperate regions. Insolation isn't high in temperate regions, so giving the same solar collector for both temperate and tropical regions wouldn't make sense. As an alternative, Jungles can be considered the closest abstraction of the tropical region.

I'm experiencing a python error when entering the civ page in the debug-mode (Shift+F2):

I guess, L_T has put somewhere directly an Umlaut or an ß in the textfile.
It's an typical error for not being able to write a non ASCII sign.

Sealurks don't get a bonus, when attacking a unit in seafungus - is that for balance reasons?

I guess, L_T has put somewhere directly an Umlaut or an ß in the textfile.
It's an typical error for not being able to write a non ASCII sign.Argh! Yeah, I keep forgetting this - this new version (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8513865&postcount=22) should remedy that, I hope. I also corrected the "Seaschleichen" to "Seeschleichen" (just caught that on your screenshot!). Report whether the new version is helping!

Cheers, LT.

Argh! Yeah, I keep forgetting this - this new version (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8513865&postcount=22) should remedy that, I hope. I also corrected the "Seaschleichen" to "Seeschleichen" (just caught that on your screenshot!). Report whether the new version is helping!

Cheers, LT.

Thanks, your new version fixes the error.

------

Another combat odds issue...I specialised/promoted a Helion in Guerilla I and II for a 35% attack bonus on rocky terrain. This however does not seem to be factored in vs. a Mindworm in a Hybrid Forest located on Rocky/Rainy/Highland terrain - I checked it for other terrain features and noticed that it is consistent. I understand that this is probably necessary for balance (many tiles with a straight 100% defense bonus for all native and non-native vs. other non-native units could be probematic), but I think this should be somewhere noted (maybe terrain entry in Planetfall concepts), because people might be used from Civ4 to that a defensive bonus from a hill (= rockyness in PF) and one from a forest e.g. stack - causing them eventually to pick wrong specialities/promotions.

Sealurks don't get a bonus, when attacking a unit in seafungus - is that for balance reasons?

Nope. It's been changed now.

Another combat odds issue...I specialised/promoted a Helion in Guerilla I and II for a 35% attack bonus on rocky terrain. This however does not seem to be factored in vs. a Mindworm in a Hybrid Forest located on Rocky/Rainy/Highland terrain - I checked it for other terrain features and noticed that it is consistent. I understand that this is probably necessary for balance (many tiles with a straight 100% defense bonus for all native and non-native vs. other non-native units could be probematic), but I think this should be somewhere noted (maybe terrain entry in Planetfall concepts), because people might be used from Civ4 to that a defensive bonus from a hill (= rockyness in PF) and one from a forest e.g. stack - causing them eventually to pick wrong specialities/promotions.

That's standard Civ4 behaviour.
I can add the info if you suggest the specific text and place - don't have inspiration for what and where to say it myself.

Xcuse me, how do you regain bunker units in cities? I've lost mine (appeared after I've built the perimeter defence) and it's gone.

P.S. Also it requires 2147483647 turns to mutate into a spore tower :(.

Xcuse me, how do you regain bunker units in cities? I've lost mine (appeared after I've built the perimeter defence) and it's gone.IIRC, you need to rebuild the perimeter defence - when the bunker is destroyed, it gets destroyed as well.

On patch I & J, I noticed that (on Noble) you occasionally get AI players that lose the game *very* early (turn 1-5ish) - and looking in the world builder, I see that their bases are taken over by native life. Is it possible that the AI doesn't defend the bases properly, especially on easier levels?

But I do like that there are seemingly more native critters around after the start (but I think there are a little to many sporelaunchers compared to mindworms, especially as sporelaunchers seem to attack roaming units more boldly than mindworms).

Cheers, LT.

It's just a psionic combat, probably AI doesn't understand that it needs more than 2 units in case 2-3 worms come by, I've got it too. In higher levels it gets a better number of units (and probably a "vs barbarians" bonus so it's ok.

I didn't get the option to rebuild the perimeter defence, I mean it was not destroyed for me.

Also, what's with the unability to create a fungal tower?

I didn't get the option to rebuild the perimeter defence, I mean it was not destroyed for me.

Good catch. The code only checks for Bunker I, not the Bunker II && III units.

Also, what's with the unability to create a fungal tower?

The Spore Launcher has no workrate. I don't know if I want to keep that unit ability.

It seems fun, don't throw that away :). Just another bunker, but natural. Make it require level 5-6 or something like that, and it's good.

how about making Recycling Tanks give you some minerals back when a unit dies, or is deleted, within or near the city.

Having a recurrent CTD here. Playing as Morgan under the latest patch. The game crashes sometime after pressing enter, processing between turns. I've tried reloading a turn earlier but it happens again. I have the last 20 autosaves or so backed up if you need them.

Also, it would be ideal to find what's causing that and tell me how to fix it, if possible. because I'd really like to continue this save.

I'm not getting a crash. Plus I noticed you're about to finish the Planetary Council, which caused crashes under patch g. So the only explanation I can think of is that you are not playing under the latest patch.

I have to report a crash as well (end turn to make it happen; in case needed, I can provide autosaves for the entire game):

I discovered the problem. Patch should be for tomorrow. It won't break your save.

Sea bases are too weak.

They are entirely, just not worth it. There are several reasons why.

1. Compared to alpha centaurii, sea bases are capable of far less yields. The most important one, is the coastal food. In SMAC, it was 2 food per tile, in planetfall it's only 1. This makes it extremely difficult to get good growth from such a base

2. Sea improvements are nowhere near as good as they used to be. They were originally balanced in the manner of building something on the same tile as a kelp farm. Without the ability for those to share tiles, most tiles with anything productive on them will only produce 1 food. And tiles with a kelp farm can almost never make more than 3 food.

3. No enhancement buildings. SMAC had the Aquafarm, Subsea Trunkline, and Thermocline Transducer. These increased the yields of sea improvements in the base. Without the ability to make these, sea improvements are just horribly gimped.

4. Major military disadvantage. Mind worms at sea are stupidly powerful. Because:
A: No defense penalty. Combat at sea uses equal odds for defend and attack, or maybe it's only mind worms that get the higher defense.
B: With their high speed, mindworms and sealurks strike at units garrisoned in sea cities from all sides.
C: With naturally poor production of sea bases, you have a very hard time building a defense force. AND the mind worms have an easier time of attacking you. You can't build bunkers in the sea, or hide near ridges to limit their angles of attack
D: The recent change to make aquaformers invisible in your territory, doesn't work too well in practice. It protects from IOD, sure, but sealurks can still see and attack your formers. And will do so merrily.

Changes I'd suggest

1. Increase coast yields to 2 food and 2 energy per tile.
2. Find some way to make kelp farms and platforms/seamills on the same tile functional.
3. Give sea bases some inbuilt defense bonus, to make them easier to hold against mindworm onslaughts
4. Re-add the sea improvement enhancement buildings, perhaps on later techs.

Sea bases are too weak.

They are entirely, just not worth it.

I'm not under that impression - yes, plain sea bases (only standard water tiles) are weaker then land bases. Often not interesting, unless land has tried up. I think that is fine - highly profitable large style sea colonisation should be up to Sveensgaard and- if at all- be only possible for other factions with late techs.
And that doesn't mean that sea bases are generally not worth for other factions - they can, if you are selective about the location. Two or three ressources or just yield boni, some land tiles in radius (supportive yields or additional bunker locations), ice if you run EB (don't needs to be constructed, can't be pillaged) - those bases tend to become valuable additions to my empire over time. Perhaps some sea landmarks could further spice up things.


1. Compared to alpha centaurii, sea bases are capable of far less yields. The most important one, is the coastal food. In SMAC, it was 2 food per tile, in planetfall it's only 1. This makes it extremely difficult to get good growth from such a base

As said, I almost think that is intended. Improving the output would take away a lot of the choice of location.


2. Sea improvements are nowhere near as good as they used to be. They were originally balanced in the manner of building something on the same tile as a kelp farm. Without the ability for those to share tiles, most tiles with anything productive on them will only produce 1 food. And tiles with a kelp farm can almost never make more than 3 food.

I'm against this for the reason stated above, however I have to withdraw my earlier statement that this kills choice - it rather moves choice. Now you have choice between kelp or anything else; if kelp and an overlay can be combined, the choice is between the different overlays. I'm not sure which is better and would still tend to stick with what we have, but given the choice between your first suggestion and this, my vote goes here.


3. No enhancement buildings. SMAC had the Aquafarm, Subsea Trunkline, and Thermocline Transducer. These increased the yields of sea improvements in the base. Without the ability to make these, sea improvements are just horribly gimped.

We actually have the subsea trunkline, it just works slightly different (IMO, more interesting implementation in PF). I have no obejctions against adding the other two as well - if they come late enough and if their implementation does not disturb balance with the Pirates. I could imagine that the Pirates start with the Aquafarm inbuild in their bases (or at least the ability to build them quickly) - of course everything non-tradeable-, while the other factions would have to wait for a later tech to be able to construct them (what happens to the Aquafarm, when someone captures a Pirate sea base, would be up to be debatted)


A: No defense penalty. Combat at sea uses equal odds for defend and attack, or maybe it's only mind worms that get the higher defense.

I don't understand this one :confused: PSI defense is better on the sea, both for native life or normal units forced into PSI-combat - the 50:50 odds don't differ from the combat results I get and as soon as you throw in Hypnotic Trance, you have the advantage on your side.


B: With their high speed, mindworms and sealurks strike at units garrisoned in sea cities from all sides.
C: With naturally poor production of sea bases, you have a very hard time building a defense force. AND the mind worms have an easier time of attacking you.
You can't build bunkers in the sea, or hide near ridges to limit their angles of attack
D: The recent change to make aquaformers invisible in your territory, doesn't work too well in practice. It protects from IOD, sure, but sealurks can still see and attack your formers. And will do so merrily.

Indeed, there is some truth in that points, though that isn't enough to detract me from going for sea bases within the considerations I have posted at the very beginning - also it is often the only room left for expansion in my games... BTW, my problems with defending sea bases have decreased over the last versions (IIRC, from the moment on Maniac put that code in, which makes native life car less for human sea territory - also the AI might have gotten better at sea expansion, drawing the planets attention more), but of course this can be a pure effect of randomness or variation in setup or playstyle in my games.

I don't understand this one :confused: PSI defense is better on the sea, both for native life or normal units forced into PSI-combat - the 50:50 odds don't differ from the combat results I get and as soon as you throw in Hypnotic Trance, you have the advantage on your side.

I don;t think it's that psi defense is better on the sea, but that sea units have better psi defense. There is a difference there.

Your troops standing guard in sea bases, are vulnerable to attack. But you can't take advantage of a rapid counterattack with choppers/ships, because they're not weak to that like land based worms are.


What would be wrong with sea bases being highly productive?
In SMAC, the general balance was that sea bases have a relative abundance of food and energy, but have a VERY hard time building anything due to the late entry and lowyield of mining platforms, combined with the fact that no sea tiles had a mineral bonus inbuilt. This also meant that the pirates got +1 minerals on coastal tiles, which allowed them to partially offset the main weakness of sea bases and make them viable for a whole faction.

Here, sea bases are more or less the same as land bases, except not really as good. The yields from aquafarms are lower than land farms, which significantly limits growth of sea bases. They feel just like watered down (excuse the pun) land bases, rather than the significantly different experience they were in SMAC.

I'm against this for the reason stated above, however I have to withdraw my earlier statement that this kills choice - it rather moves choice. Now you have choice between kelp or anything else; if kelp and an overlay can be combined, the choice is between the different overlays. I'm not sure which is better and would still tend to stick with what we have, but given the choice between your first suggestion and this, my vote goes here.


It'd probably be logical for sea boreholes to remove kelp, actually. but other improvements ought to be possible to build in it I think.

I've done a little modding of my own, anyways. Changes I made:

Coast gives 2 food, 2 energy
Shelf gives 2 food, 2 energy
Ocean gives 1 food, 2 energy
Trench mineral bonus reduced to 1.

I'm aware that shelf and coast have the same yield. Personally, I don't see a lot of benefit in having those as seperate terrain. I'd rather just see coast renamed shelf, and merge them.

In general, the wetter you get, the more food you get. Moist makes more food than arid, which makes more food than rainy. The sea is just a natural extension of that, where you're surrounded by teeming, edible life, but nary a solid thing to make a house out of. I like the double edges sword aspect. It means you have to seek out mineral bonuses, or settle on the coast near minable areas, to get decent production in a sea base. Thusly not removing choice about location. But also giving the option of putting a base completely out in the sea. Since such a base would have almost nil production, you have to personally support it by paying for it's improvements. but on the flipside, it generates vast amounts of commerce and research once you get it up and running. It's a good tradeoff.

I'm not trying to emulate SMAC just because. I think they actually made some pretty good design choices with regards to the sea, and I enjoyed the experience it gave.

I don;t think it's that psi defense is better on the sea, but that sea units have better psi defense. There is a difference there.

Your troops standing guard in sea bases, are vulnerable to attack. But you can't take advantage of a rapid counterattack with choppers/ships, because they're not weak to that like land based worms are.

Ah ok, my mistake - fueled by the fact that I never defend a seabase solely with land units. I rely mainly on ships for that duty, so that when I get attacked from native life there, I have the 1:1 odds.

For counterattacks, I weaken them with the bunker inside base, then sending out my ships. Usually works, except for very new bases cought unprepared. But on the whole, I rarely lose sea bases.