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AlanH
Jul 31, 2009, 04:46 PM
BtS SGOTM 10 - Armageddon

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 10 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

In this, the third BtS SGOTM, Gyathaar wants nuclear devastation. Stalin of Russia starts in the Renaissance era in 1285 AD, in a world with five Aggressive AI civs. He is hell bent on world conquest, BUT he can only capture a city if he nukes it first.

It's a fight to the nuclear death in an Epic speed, Emperor difficulty game on a Small sized Big and Small map. There are no goody huts, no events, no city razing, no city flipping, no Vassals. Only Conquest is enabled.

It's a standard Renaissance start, so you get a lot of techs at the beginning. Cities are created with pop 2 and a few buildings. You start with two settlers, two longbows, one explorer and a worker. The AI start with two settlers, four longbows, two explorers and a worker.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the new all-singing, all-dancing HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.001. This HoF Mod version is available now. You can download it here (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php#bts_download).

If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.

Timetable
The game will start on Friday, August 7 .

Your start file, and then each submitted Save for your team, will be linked on the Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) throughout the game. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

The finish deadline is December 7 2009. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm10small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm10large.jpg)

Map Parameters

Playable Leader/Civ - Stalin of the Russian Empire.
Traits - Aggressive, Industrious.
Unique Unit - Cossack (replaces Cavalry)
Unique Building - Research Institute (replaces Laboratory)
Renaissance Era start - turn 277, 1285 AD.
Difficulty - Emperor
Game Speed - Epic (473 turns)
World size - Small
Rivals - Five
Landform - Big and Small
Other settings - No city razing, No Culture Flips, No goodie huts, No events, Aggressive AI, No Vassals
Victory Conditions - Conquest Only

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest Conquest victory, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. You will drop down the final ranking table* for each city that you capture without nuking it with a direct hit first. A "Capture" is defined as any method of obtaining a city other than by building it yourself using a settler. A "Capture" also includes retrieving a city you originally built but lost.

*The final ranking will sort teams in the following order:

Win, lose or retire. Wins go first. Retirements go last.
For wins, the number of un-nuked cities captured. Zero missed cities go first.
For wins, the finish date.
For losses and retirements, final score will determine their rankings within those categories.



All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Have fun.

Ozbenno
Jul 31, 2009, 05:51 PM
Welcome all, this should be fun. Big commiserations to Edzako for being put on the wooden spoon experts :lol: but as long as you just want to have some fun this should be all right.

I've actually been playing some non-ancient starts recently for HOF games. One of the keys is to get settlers out as quick as possible to grab the land.

Someone want to generate a test start. Picking the right techs to research from the start will be a key I think. I know Physics reveals uranium but what allows nukes? Ecology will be important as well to clean-up.

More thoughts as they come to mind.

ianw1610
Aug 01, 2009, 03:07 AM
Yep, I'm here :salute:

All set for another award-winning game....... :mischief:

mc-red
Aug 02, 2009, 01:30 AM
Hi guys and welcome Edzako :wavey:
This should be a blast.

McArine
Aug 03, 2009, 07:45 AM
Checking in, and welcome Edzako.

I agree with Ozbenno, that non-ancient games is all about land grabbing in the beginning.

Ozbenno
Aug 03, 2009, 04:44 PM
I'll be able to generate a test game tomorrow I think. Anyone else got any ideas on this one?

ianw1610
Aug 04, 2009, 03:18 AM
I've never played a non-Ancient start before, and have never been in a Nuclear war before, so I'm completely stuck for ideas!

By the way, I'll probably be away on holiday the second half of August, so it may be September before I can contribute fully.

PS - @oz - remind me... which team is currently leading the Ashes series?!?!!

Ozbenno
Aug 04, 2009, 03:50 AM
PS - @oz - remind me... which team is currently leading the Ashes series?!?!!

Still two games to go! Stayed up til 1am last night watching :crazyeye:

Actually I'm playing cricket tomorrow night so can't do a test game until Thursday.

My only nuke experience is in SGs, where once we realise we can't win by any other means we WB ourselves nukes and tanks like this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=220070&highlight=rotqm4&page=20) (end of the page) :lol:


Turns played. Our dudes killed stuff. Stuff killed our dudes. 72 nukes turned spain into a glowing pile of global warming. Typical set.

mc-red
Aug 04, 2009, 06:18 AM
One thing I have learnt about nuke strategies is to try to get Millitary science and use gg's to build academies.
Highly promoted troops are not needed for taking nuked cities and nukes are expensive.

edit:
Other obvious key is to control or destroy UN before any anti nuke resolution is passed of course.

edit2:
Given late start and hammer needs maybe a hammer focussed economy would be better than trying to grow cottages.

Ralph_Jackson
Aug 04, 2009, 07:00 AM
Signing in, I had ummed and ahhed about taking a Civ break but the theme of this game overcame my resistance, more wooden spoons on their way!

Although in honour of our captain's cricket team perhaps we should just aim for second this time round.......

Ralph

mc-red
Aug 04, 2009, 07:50 AM
Some thoughts on tech path and civics.

1st Decision do we want to immediately use two turns of anarchy or one (kind of depends on what we see when we move some units around and where we want to settle).

Definately want Beauro and one other as this will give one turn of anarchy.
Let's say Bearuo and Merc. We start with a forge so we can then run an engineer in each city.
This is what the AI does it seems. So we should be getting a GE exactly at same time (I think around turn 35) as all the non philo civs. I am guessing these GE's are going to be used to rush wonders.
GE will bulb gunpowder which opens up Chemistry from liberalism if that's what we want.

These wonders are immediately available:
Notre Damme
Angor Wat
Sistine Chappel
U of Sangakore
Shewanpandega
Spiral Minaret

It seems as we have gold we should be trying to sink as many resource/trait boosted hammers into SP to build up some failure gold to do deficit research.

If we take another turn of anarchy then we can also revolt to the Caste and HR.
Caste allows an immediate scientist. THis will boost our tech rate relative to AI which all go engineer.
Also Caste favours the hammer economy as all flat tiles can with workshops will have same production as corresponding hills.


This will give us a scientist which I believe bulbs Education partly and then PP.

Liberalism race is much tigher in this setting.
All AI's in my test games go for education.

I believe if we can manage diplo well (this is critical) we would be better off going Nationalism (for monopoly). Our tech rate will be boosted yet again relative to ai as we have two pre-reqs for this as opposed to one for education.
This means we would complete hopefully before ai has education. Of course, we are now exposed to it being demanded.
If diplo is ok we should be able to trade for education once it is no longer a monopoly or if we invest some beakers.
We can then go straight to Lib and shoot to take Constitution for rep. or if we went for GE we would have option to go Chemistry after bulbing Gunpowder.

edit:
I've only tried a few openings to get a feel for what goes on so haven't gone all the way to lib yet.
Will try on the test map and see what happens.

ianw1610
Aug 04, 2009, 09:43 AM
Shewanpandega

...took me a while to work out what you meant by that - sounds like it should be a Sri Lankan leg-spinner......

Has someone tried PM'ing Edzako, so that he knows he has to sign in??

What starting buildings do we get? How feasible is it to beeline for Oxford Uni??

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 04, 2009, 11:27 AM
I keep seeing things in the setup that keep scaring me!!

I just had in my head that was nukes only until I just looked. Ok Ive never used them before but first time for everything.

Then I read that is advanced start :confused: Will be popping my cherry with these on this one them.

Ok so we can just Rex to go for peaceful win???... No cos conquest only, ok so just take a couple of key cities then vassalize.... no vassals....:mad::mad: Ok so just nuke a city raze it and leave for the barbs to make the most of the remnants .... no city razing!!! so we have to actual look the people in one of the faces from their three heads they have just grown after we "capture" each city. I think I need to go lie down!!!

How do people feel we go about this one, are we stictly adhereing to the nuke rule or do we allow ourselves to gain some nearby real estate from normal means before the dawn of the nuclear age. Personally I think best defense against nukes is to make sure others cant make them. Therefore we should look to get to Rocketry/Fission first but again I have no knowledge of AI's propensity to use nukes if they aint going to use them not so much of an issue.

I see this starts on Friday well I cant do anything then have some trip to Leeds orgainsed!!!! :D :D

mc-red
Aug 04, 2009, 03:19 PM
I see this starts on Friday well I cant do anything then have some trip to Leeds orgainsed!!!! :D :D

Nice. I really wanted to go there for at least a day but couldn't get it sorted. :sad:

mc-red
Aug 04, 2009, 03:20 PM
...took me a while to work out what you meant by that - sounds like it should be a Sri Lankan leg-spinner......


What starting buildings do we get? How feasible is it to beeline for Oxford Uni??

:D

Forge, granary, and aquaduct

Ianw we can definately beeline oxford I just think our overall tech rate will be better if we go for nationalism and try to get an AI friendly to trade for Education.
THey have same beaker cost but we get an extra 20% discount on Nationalism. It should be good trade bait for Education. THe question is will it affect the lib race.

In my three starts all 12 AI's went Education first.
We can try to race them.
This could work as I believe the AI will run engineers and also build cottages which take time to mature.
If we go hammers and build research and using failure wonders like SP at multiple locations to keep slider at 100%
should allow us to outgun them despite bonuses.
Also, I have no idea how many of the AI's will actually go lib right after education.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 04, 2009, 03:59 PM
I've tried 3 or 4 trial starts tonight with random maps, I'm in favour of taking 2 turns of anarchy of the bat, this will give us time to move settlers (if need be). Our current settler position would bag all food resources but could possibly take out the gold of any city radius. I think whoever takes first should move southern Lbow 1SE and northern Lbow 1NE. This will give us more idea of other possible sites. Personally I am in favour of splitting two settlers one north to take Iron fish possibly 1S of Iron and the other either 1S or 1SW of western gold. The gold will give initial happiness boost and research boost. Possible third site is inbetween the 2 phants which would also get crabs and clams. We should definitely bag Iron, I got Dow'd on ealry and had just Lbows vs Knights and Maces not good and the gold would give big boost to early science especially if this is capital with bureau bonus. Sci is a drag early be prepared for 40+ tech research turns.

As regards science, I have seen certain civs go Nationalism and Gunpowder but agree 50%+ go for Education. If we go Merc, HE, Caste, Bureau we can run sci's instead of eng's and use GS to bulb remainder of Education this should get us ahead in Lib race. We can also run priests in second city to get GP for shrine for inevitable holy city. (I did get two in one game, which I suppose is 1 in 6 chance).

Ian problem with Ox uni is we need six unis for that thus 6 cities which isn't really feasible pre-Liberalism. Not enough time to get economy robust enough to support that many cities.

Stil haven't used a nuke!!

Ozbenno
Aug 04, 2009, 04:25 PM
I've PMed Edzako a few days ago but nothing yet.

I agree with Mighty that running scientists first to help bulb Education is a good start. None of the wonders available are game killers so a GE isn't as useful as could be.

I think we play this one to the letter of the law and nuke everything. Good idea about using GGs to build academies, nuked cities don't need promoted troops.

mc-red
Aug 05, 2009, 01:49 AM
@mighty
We need 5 cities for Oxford because of small map. This might be possible with a fast rex and good blocking but can't count on it as AI's spawn fairly close.
Also, usually in Emperor fourth city can be a big jump in maintenence.

mc-red
Aug 05, 2009, 03:37 AM
@ian
Coastal cities get LH too

Ozbenno
Aug 07, 2009, 07:38 PM
Starting save is up. We can grab the save and move our warriors, workers etc to get an idea of the surrounds. I can do this tomorrow if no-one else can get in first.

I've not had the time to get a test save together (was up far too late last night watching the cricket) but might tonight.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 08, 2009, 03:43 AM
Im ok for you to move the units to take a check what area is like, although still think we need to come up with some plan as to how to play the initial turns. Playing how I suggested by using scientist to bulb Education is roughly getting lib in 60ish turns. We only need to self reseach Edu about 450 beakers so can half research another tech too.

Once we know settling sites we can work out more initial builds and worker actions.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 08, 2009, 03:51 AM
:pPS After yesterdays debacle at Headingley all I can say is

"Stand up if your one-nil up!!" :p

Ozbenno
Aug 08, 2009, 09:51 PM
OK, I'll grab this tonight and move some dudes around and repost some screenies.

I think we figure out where the capital goes and what direction we want the second city to bo in and then the first turn set can be really short, figuring out the next best shot for second city.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 09, 2009, 02:58 AM
I'd recommend northern Lbow NE, explorer to the gold and southern Lbow 1SW. Then we can hopefully judge more where we want cities then can move settlers and worker based on that. Im still in favour of capital 1S of Iron and 2nd city 1S or 1SW of grassland gold.

Ozbenno
Aug 09, 2009, 03:05 AM
OK, I load up the save and make the following moves


Longbow NE
Explorer S,SE
Longbow SW


I left the settlers and worker unmoved for now and here's the lay of the land.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8348/civ4screenshot0000v.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0000v.jpg/)

I still think settling in place is the best option and going for the 2 gold and clams cows in a southern (and second city) on the desert hills.

What do we think?

Ozbenno
Aug 09, 2009, 03:07 AM
I'd recommend northern Lbow NE, explorer to the gold and southern Lbow 1SW. Then we can hopefully judge more where we want cities then can move settlers and worker based on that. Im still in favour of capital 1S of Iron and 2nd city 1S or 1SW of grassland gold.

:lol: That's what I did while you poted this!

If we move the settler, we lose the extra hammer in production from settling on a plains hill, what do we gain from moving 1S of iron?

Ozbenno
Aug 09, 2009, 03:08 AM
Actually we lose the crabs and jumbos as well if we move, my vote is for settling in place.

ianw1610
Aug 09, 2009, 04:21 AM
My vote:

First city in place.

Second city 1N2W of the Clam, unless we find a better option in the meantime.

Switch Civics immediately, as previously discussed.

Apparently we will be allocated a Religion... do we want to run that as a State Religion, or stay in No State Religion, for better diplomacy against the aggresive AI?

If we do want to run a State Religion, maybe go for Pacifism to get a Great Person benefit?? (although, to avoid yet another turn of Anarchy, we would need to stay away from Hereditary Rule if we do indeed revolt to Pacifism)...

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 09, 2009, 05:57 AM
The idea of 1S of Iron was mainly due to thinking that we wouldnt possibly be given such a ridiculously juicy starting spot without some sort of catch. I assumed that being there would be little space for decent future city sites. I certainly didnt expect the site south of gold would yield 2 more food resources :eek: :eek: Looks like some spot could be found with floodplains in SW too.

As for civics I can agree with foregoing HR and go for Pacisfism we will get three happy from the gold and Ivory so this will more than compensate. We will still have an extra turn of anarchy for state religion but as this will be first few turns will not cost us too much. To confirm civics I think we should goto Bureau-Caste-Merc-Pacifism.

What I have been doing in test games is running sci's in capital and merchants in second city. Usually get 2 Gs's (One to bulb remainder of Edu and one for Academy) and 3rd Great Person Merchant can used to bulb Economics for free GM or used for trade mission or Golden Age. In future cities run an artist for first few turns for border pop. Do not need in first two cities as we will get culture from capital and religion in 2nd city.
I would start with wrkboats in both cities and buildd as quick as poss, I would though be wary of polluting the GP gene pool in capital with engineer points it is critical we get GS first to bulb Education without that we will struggle to get Lib.

ianw1610
Aug 09, 2009, 07:50 AM
I agree with everything in @mighty's post

So, research path - go for Nationalism first?

Should we aim for Taj Mahal, for an early Golden Age?

REX up to 5 cities ASAP to enable fast Oxford?

Fair chance we will be DoW'd early due to Aggressive AI and Heathen Religion, so ensure we have a strong army from early on.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 09, 2009, 08:38 AM
We need to have researched about 450 beakers into Education before we get GS to be able to fully bulb it. We can half research a tech probs either Nationalism or Gunpowder with remaining beakers before then.

Taj will tie up too many hammers in my opinion, somebody will tech Nationalism and therefore beat us to it would rather build improvements or settlers etc.

We wont be in heathen religion for long once we have lib we can trade it around and other civs will switch to FR in the experience of games I recently played.

mc-red
Aug 09, 2009, 03:52 PM
Ok sounds like we have the makings of a plan.
Gunpowder over nationalism for me for any beakers not going to Education.
I think when choosing builds with the priorities of rex(settlers) and military(dow protection) that we also don't neglect workers.
As each city comes with pop two we will be working lots of unimproved tiles.

Ozbenno
Aug 09, 2009, 04:21 PM
OK, I'll settle in place, swap civics and move the second settler towards the gold site.

Do we want to start with Work Boat builds or workers? First worker to rice then iron.

Research to Gunpowder.

Civics to Bureau-Caste-Merc-Pacifism.

I'll stop again when we get the second settler in place and repost the starting area screenshots to confirm that's where we want it.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 09, 2009, 04:48 PM
wkboats for me as workers are pretty expensive until we are working 3-4 improved tiles in a city. ALthough I do second Mc's views on workers as mentioned above once we get to size 3-4 working good tiles we should be able to get worker out in 5-6 turns. So once we get to work fish,clams and iron in capital and rice corn clams in second city we should be able to knock up a band of workers pretty easily.

Ralph_Jackson
Aug 10, 2009, 01:44 AM
All sounds good to me....

Ralph

mc-red
Aug 10, 2009, 02:15 AM
Second city will need a border pop to work clams. Easiest way without ruining GP gene pool would be to just build culture for border pop. This also bring cows into play which are superior to the rice.

For second city Corn before Rice as neither are irrigated and at some point need to get a grassland farm to chain irrigate them.
Early game ranks using the DaveMcW scores would be.

Corn (irrigated) > Clams > Corn (before irrigation) > Rice (irrigated) > Cows > Rice (before irrigation)

for the cap
Fish > irrigated corn > crab, clams > farmed(not irrigated) corn > grass iron

so normally I would try to farm corn before mining grass iron.
It seems here though the boost to work boats and also the movement of the worker favour the iron first as it is on one side of the capital and all the other improvable tiles are clustered to the other side of eastern forest.

so iron then corn then cows if we go for the border pop in city 2.

EDIT:
Seafood benefits greatly over normal start from the free LH

ianw1610
Aug 10, 2009, 02:59 AM
The 2nd city should be the holy city of our Religion, so borders should expand quickly.

We need to figure how best to spread our religion to our Capital (Monastery? OrgRel?), to make the most of Pacifism (which only works in cities with a state Religion). If the Religion doesn't spread to our capital, GP generation will be skewed towards our 2nd city.

mc-red
Aug 10, 2009, 03:20 AM
:blush: Ah good point on religion Ianw. edit just realized mighty had already mentioned this above

Also, given how powerful coastal fish with LH are and the fact that iron/corn in second ring.
I think worker should chop where it stands before going to iron. Rather than going to rice which is in first ring but weaker than the iron and corn.

mc-red
Aug 10, 2009, 03:23 AM
I didn't make a note of prob of auto spread of religion in test starts but would be an unreliable method anyway so we need a plan.

mc-red
Aug 10, 2009, 03:24 AM
One other thought is that we could be in island area.
Does this mean we could soon have barb trireme's and galleys to deal with?

Ozbenno
Aug 10, 2009, 07:56 AM
Probably the easiest is to start in OR, spread the missionary to the capital. We can build a road between the two and wait for natural spread. It always seem to be Judaism that spawns in my non-ancient starts, so no missionary. Is it worth OR?

ianw1610
Aug 10, 2009, 08:47 AM
So... use 2 turns of Anarchy at the start to revolt to Bureaucracy / Mercantilism / Caste / OrgRel - then build 1 or 2 missionaries - then use a further turn of Anarchy to revolt to Hereditary / Pacifism and another turn of Anarchy to switch Religion. Thoughts??

As for Barbs - how much of a problem to they tend to be, in regular later era starts? What type of unit will we be facing (Macemen???). Will Gyathaar have created Atlantis Mark II, I wonder?? I note he has already set up one Barb City, which is the Taoist holy city......

mc-red
Aug 10, 2009, 09:05 AM
If we delay second city by a couple of extra turns do we get a religion in capital?
I can't run a test.
If so that would be better than anarchy.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 10, 2009, 11:29 AM
I dont think the extra hassle of OR and building early missionary is worthwhile. We could just reverse the planned specialist allocation and run sci's in 2nd city and either sci's/merchants in capital. We can build monastry and then missionaries to help spread religion to necessary cities. We wont get a free missionary whatever religion we get. The religions take approx half a dozen turns to be allocated so isnt worthwile to delay second city either.

On Barbs, never had much of a problem with land barbs due to the smaller than usual space in any test games, will have to play as we see depending on how things develop. One thing we should do is build a trireme from capital to defend the three water based resources nearby nothing more infuriating as to have a galley sneak up and wreck all three.

I am assuming that all barb cities are included in the nuke first criteria. If so even more reason for early rexing.

Ozbenno
Aug 12, 2009, 01:27 AM
I have held off playing as I'm still not sure there is a consensus on OR or Pacifism from the start. I would go OR myself (as it will be a while before we're in a position to run scientists) and then run Pacifism later (in a swap with HR) but I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise.

mc-red
Aug 12, 2009, 02:32 AM
going pacifism first means our first gp should come around T25 (second city) verses T38+(capitol) I believe.

1st GP - 135 GPP so early game we will have 3 GPP in OR verses 6GPP in caste in second city

If we are bulbing edu first maybe it won't make a difference to when we get education as we still need a lot of self research
at low early GPT rate.
If academy first then it does make a difference.
EDIT:
Just realized by T40 in pacifism case we should be close to a second GP whereas in OR we will still have some turns to go.
So I think pacifism wins out.
It also costs a bit less.

ianw1610
Aug 12, 2009, 02:48 AM
I'm with @mc - Pacifism would work well with Mercantilism, to hopefully get an early advantage over the AI.

We should build an early Monastery in our holy city - the 10% research bonus will work well with the Gold mines, and we can pump out Missionaries from there.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
Im also with pacifism the only gain with OR is saving time to build a monastry but we will more than likely need one later if we require to spread religion to future cities. The 25% production will be minimal due to initial low hammers and high unit output. With pacisfism we are getting 6 GP per turn towards first GP as soon as religions allocated it will also help growth as we will need less specialists thus more tiles worked.

McArine
Aug 12, 2009, 02:54 PM
I also think pacifism is the best way to start out.
I've finally gotten around to trying some test games, and they are interesting.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 12, 2009, 03:18 PM
Just played test with Pacifism with an awful start no food and completely boxed in. However bagged Education after 23 turns and Lib by 60 took Nationalism from Lib and built Taj, also got Economics first and had PP and Constitution by 100 all self researched and was 2-3 techs ahead. I think we can get lib by mid 50 turns with this start as we have fair amount of early commerce and bags of food. We will need to research Education off the bat to get to 400+ by first GS. I would go builds of Moscow wrkboat (maybe 2), worker *2, St Petes wrkboat, monastry, missionary.

Ozbenno
Aug 12, 2009, 04:22 PM
OK, Pacifism it is.

Ozbenno
Aug 13, 2009, 02:08 AM
OK, settled in place.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3381/civ4screenshot0000.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0000.jpg/)

Changed our civics

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4376/civ4screenshot0001t.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0001t.jpg/)

Moved the settler here

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5435/civ4screenshot0002q.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0002q.jpg/)

And stopped.

Do we want to settle here, if we move south we swap cows for clams and leave the corn for Moscow. I think it is more food and production.

I uploaded the save if anyone wants to look around (quick look now as we're unlikely ever to be top at a particular year again).

Who wants it next?

ianw1610
Aug 13, 2009, 02:56 AM
I'm available over the next few days, to play the next set (probably just 2 or 3 turns), if that is ok? (I'll pay particular attention to Barb Galleys targetting our cities, I promise...)

I vote for settling St Petersburg in place, as Moscow doesn't really need the Corn, and we can build another city further south to grab the Crab and Horse...

We have just 1 Worker, right? How should we prioritise the various worker actions? Should we improve resources first (and if so, which)? Or should we chop, to accelerate Settler/Worker production? Or should we build roads?

Ozbenno
Aug 13, 2009, 05:02 AM
We have one worker (need more). Currently on the rice. Should then go to the iron and then build a road between the two cities I think

ianw1610
Aug 13, 2009, 09:44 AM
Do we think the first build in St Pete should be a Worker? (before the Monastery)?

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 13, 2009, 10:55 AM
I also agree in place as Moscow will have plenty of food.

As mentioned above I would see build order as the following

Moscow - wrkboat, wrkboat, worker, worker
St Petes - workboat, monastry, missionary

Workers off the bat are expensive and limit growth would rather wait for some seafood and Iron and rice/corn to be worked.

mc-red
Aug 13, 2009, 12:56 PM
I also agree in place as Moscow will have plenty of food.

As mentioned above I would see build order as the following

Moscow - wrkboat, wrkboat, worker, worker
St Petes - workboat, monastry, missionary

Workers off the bat are expensive and limit growth would rather wait for some seafood and Iron and rice/corn to be worked.

agree with mighty on builds.
I wrote my thoughts about worker actions above.
I would have chopped the forest where the worker started to get fish going ASAP and then gone iron.
Now I think corn and maybe cows before crossing the forest to iron.

ianw1610
Aug 13, 2009, 01:11 PM
The Corn and Cows are still outside of the cultural borders for now... but do we really want to spend 6 more turns farming the Rice, for the benefit of just +1 food per turn? How about moving the Worker up to the Iron now, to start mining it when the borders expand?

Specialists... do we want a Scientist in each city, or a Scientist in St Pete and Merchant in Moscow?

Research - should we start on Education, to get enough beakers in our pocket, to enable the last part of it to be bulbed later on? And, if so, how many beakers of self-research will be needed up-front??

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 13, 2009, 04:58 PM
The Corn and Cows are still outside of the cultural borders for now... but do we really want to spend 6 more turns farming the Rice, for the benefit of just +1 food per turn? How about moving the Worker up to the Iron now, to start mining it when the borders expand?

Specialists... do we want a Scientist in each city, or a Scientist in St Pete and Merchant in Moscow?

Research - should we start on Education, to get enough beakers in our pocket, to enable the last part of it to be bulbed later on? And, if so, how many beakers of self-research will be needed up-front??

Fair point about the rice only being +1 is it worthwhile chooping a forest first to help speed wrkboat???

Yet again need to point out we need to start on Education to get between 400-450 beakers to be able to bulb Education. It should only take us about 20-25 turns in total before GS, we can work one scientist straight away from merc and should be able to work second once enough food allows.
scientists should be worked in St Petes for first Great person to be GS as this is city to benefit from Pacisfism. I would prefer merchants in capital as cash is problem once we spread out some cities.

Ralph_Jackson
Aug 14, 2009, 01:41 AM
scientists should be worked in St Petes for first Great person to be GS as this is city to benefit from Pacisfism. I would prefer merchants in capital as cash is problem once we spread out some cities.


This feels right to me as, with our inability to expand for quite some time after the initial rex phase, we are going to need to stretch our economy fairly severely to ensure we have secured enough land whilst we hunker down towards nukes. The merchant's in our capital will help significantly with this whilst our GS's carry the research burden..

Ralph

ianw1610
Aug 14, 2009, 04:54 PM
Fair point about the rice only being +1 is it worthwhile chooping a forest first to help speed wrkboat???

Yet again need to point out we need to start on Education to get between 400-450 beakers to be able to bulb Education. It should only take us about 20-25 turns in total before GS, we can work one scientist straight away from merc and should be able to work second once enough food allows.
scientists should be worked in St Petes for first Great person to be GS as this is city to benefit from Pacisfism. I would prefer merchants in capital as cash is problem once we spread out some cities.

Are you sure it is only 400-450 beakers of self-research that is needed? On Epic, I thought the element of Research that is not part of the GS bulbing was closer to 1,000 beakers?

I'd also prefer Chopping to Farming, so I'll move the Worker to the Forest, to start a chop for Moscow.

I'll play in 12 hours or so (or, to be more specific, I'll play as soon as I've finalised my ever-changing Fantasy Football team - which may take some time......)

ianw1610
Aug 15, 2009, 04:31 AM
Ok, so I settled St Petersburg in place, allocating a Scientist. I allocated a Merchant to Moscow.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1148/ianw1610t279.jpg

And, the very next turn, we met our next door neighbour.

...

...

...

Please meet this blood-thirsty cannibal:

...

...

...

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2299/ianw1610t280.jpg

(Don’t worry, I’m sure we’ll nuke him to bits later...)

Religions were allocated. We got Buddhism:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/856/ianw1610t283.jpg

Gandhi got Confucianism.

The worker stopped farming the Rice and instead chopped a Forest in Moscow... this one chop (with the Bureaucracy and Forge bonus) provided enough hammers for two Workboats. The worker is currently building a Pasture on the Cow.

So, this is the world as we know it:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2806/ianw1610t288.jpg

Gandhi has already expanded aggressively towards us – his Holy City may cause us some cultural difficulties. Also, his general propensity to favour all things Cultural may give us some land losses later in the game.

On the map, I’ve mapped out potential sites for cities 3, 4 and 5, if we stay on the one landmass...

...however, our best option may be well be to build some boats and settle other nearby landmasses. Whichever way we choose to REX, we need to be quick about it!!

We are not allowed to take out any Gandhi cities before the Nuclear era, so will need to peacefully expand to wherever we can.

I’m assuming Gyathaar has been kind enough to actually give us Uranium (won’t find out for sure until we get Physics)... although the more land we claim peacefully at the start, the better our likelihood of getting a source of Uranium somewhere in our borders.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1295 AD to 1340 AD:


Turn 279, 1295 AD: St. Petersburg has been founded.

Turn 282, 1310 AD: Islam has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 282, 1310 AD: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 282, 1310 AD: Buddhism has been founded in St. Petersburg!
Turn 282, 1310 AD: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 282, 1310 AD: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 282, 1310 AD: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 283, 1315 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 283, 1315 AD: Stalin converts to Buddhism!
Turn 283, 1315 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 283, 1315 AD: Gandhi converts to Confucianism!

Turn 284, 1320 AD: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 285, 1325 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!

Turn 287, 1335 AD: Moscow will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

Turn 288, 1340 AD: Moscow has grown to size 3.

mc-red
Aug 15, 2009, 05:12 AM
Ghandi will be pain culturally but at least our city 2 and proposed city 5 will give the capitol BFC cultural cover.

If we fogbust city 5 we can save a few hammers by not need tireme.

ruff_hi
Aug 15, 2009, 09:35 AM
hi guys - mind if I watch? What are the rules about taking another civ's city ... can you only do that if you have nuked it? Going to be hard to expand if you don't take out Gandhi.

mc-red
Aug 16, 2009, 03:02 AM
hi guys - mind if I watch? What are the rules about taking another civ's city ... can you only do that if you have nuked it? Going to be hard to expand if you don't take out Gandhi.

Ruff_Hi,
We can take cities but if they are not nuked first we get a penalty if we end up winning with a conquest.

@everyone
Any comments on the thought of using a hammer heavy economy I suggested earlier.
Reasons:
Nukes are hammer intensive.
We can get lots of failure gold from trait/forge/resource multpliers (e.g gold for SP)
We probably want to go State Property rather than corps. For 10% hammers, food, low maint.
Cottages will take a long time to mature relative our peak research needs.
Rep will be available soon.

mc-red
Aug 16, 2009, 03:05 AM
I have the save will play tonight.

mc-red
Aug 16, 2009, 01:19 PM
Ok played to the end of turn 20 but left it there as we might want to think through next few moves.
It was very boring turnset as the one worker was building pasture for first five turns and is now farming.
We built a worker who is now mining the iron.
The turn the worker completed and I was about to start on monastary Budhism spread to
Moscow. :woohoo:
I let Moscow grow to 4 building a workboat and Holy City also grew to four building a library.
We can switch Moscow to worker but I think as it grows in 2 and wb in 4 we might as well finish workboat and let it grow one more pop before going worker.
St Petersberg also can easily grow one more pop in three or we can immediately start a settler.
The other option is switch to an escort and then at pop 5 build a settler.



Here is your Session Turn Log from 1340 AD to 1385 AD:


Turn 289, 1345 AD: Gandhi adopts Pacifism!

Turn 292, 1360 AD: Al-Khwarizmi (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 294, 1370 AD: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 294, 1370 AD: Buddhism has spread in Moscow.
Turn 294, 1370 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Buddhist Monastery.

Turn 296, 1380 AD: Moscow will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 296, 1380 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 4 on the next turn.

Turn 297, 1385 AD: Moscow has grown to size 4.
Turn 297, 1385 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 4.

Ozbenno
Aug 17, 2009, 01:14 AM
I think we need to REX here and deny Gandhi our lands now and push him west, 2-3 settlers would be good maybe, if we run a couple of merchants we should keep above water.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 17, 2009, 01:20 AM
Are you sure it is only 400-450 beakers of self-research that is needed? On Epic, I thought the element of Research that is not part of the GS bulbing was closer to 1,000 beakers?

I'd also prefer Chopping to Farming, so I'll move the Worker to the Forest, to start a chop for Moscow.

I'll play in 12 hours or so (or, to be more specific, I'll play as soon as I've finalised my ever-changing Fantasy Football team - which may take some time......)

I've played numerous test games and has been case that Scientist will bulb approx 2200+ beakers which meant only around 450 needs to be self researched.

I can take next set, had a quick look and we can work another scientist in St Petes to bring GS to 4 turns. I think we should move worker from corn to gold. We have plenty of food for moment need to increase happy and extra commerce will be bonus.
We have about 560 beakers into Education which is more than enough, what to do with remaining 4 turns before GS
1) Put some beakers into another tech??
2) Reduce slider to gain some cash/culture/espionage???
I've a feeling Gandhi will go for Nationalism first as will allow his UB, So this maybe up for trade, if we can trade it for Education then would allow us to get Constitution from Lib, although we may have to put some beakers ourself in first.
Will take closer look tonight again after I have changed my ever changing fantasy football team namely removing certain Everton defenders and lacklustre Liverpool strikers after drab performances at the weekend!! :mad:

mc-red
Aug 17, 2009, 02:59 AM
I think we should move worker from corn to gold. We have plenty of food for moment need to increase happy and extra commerce will be bonus.

Will take closer look tonight again after I have changed my ever changing fantasy football team namely removing certain Everton defenders and lacklustre Liverpool strikers after drab performances at the weekend!! :mad:

If we are building settlers happy cap not as important as food and corn > gold IMHO.

off topic:
With the owner situation at LFC I was not at all confident
going into this season :sad:
Am glad I didn't do fantasy football this year.

ianw1610
Aug 17, 2009, 05:14 AM
Research - as Physics reveals Uranium and Fission enables Nukes, surely we should beeline there? So, maybe try for Astronomy from Liberalism, and research Printing Press for the next 4 turns, before switching to Liberalism?

REX - we need to claim the tile labelled as "City 3 site" as soon as possible. When the Workboat is complete in Moscow, I think we should use it to explore some nearby landmasses to the NE and E (don't use it for Seafood yet). Maybe cities 4 & 5 could ultimately be settled on a landmass different from our starting continent.

Production / Worker Actions - I think we should chop most or all of the forests in Moscow, to get as many Settlers and Workers into play. With the Bureaucracy and Forge bonuses, chopping will really help our short-term production.

Religion / Diplomacy - I see that Delhi has received Christianity, implying that the holy city (and another AI rival) is quite close to Gandhi's North or West... maybe our Explorer can pick up another cultural border over in that direction.

General Strategy - As well as Settlers and Workers, we should give priority to Libraries and Universities, with an eye to getting Oxford ASAP.

Obvious off-topic piece about Fantasy Football - I had an ok first week... I thought Everton would lose (admittedly not 6-1 !!!), so avoided Everton players. Also, I figured Liverpool would struggle at Tottenham so avoided all their players (except for the Phil Collins fan). My Man Utd players served me well, although my Chelski players (including Fat Frank as captain), let me down somewhat......

mc-red
Aug 17, 2009, 06:16 AM
Obvious off-topic piece about Fantasy Football - I had an ok first week... I thought Everton would lose (admittedly not 6-1 !!!), so avoided Everton players. Also, I figured Liverpool would struggle at Tottenham so avoided all their players (except for the Phil Collins fan). My Man Utd players served me well, although my Chelski players (including Fat Frank as captain), let me down somewhat......

Which league do you use. I have tried a few but ended up liking
http://fantasy.premierleague.com/ which is a bit restrictive but enjoyable.

ianw1610
Aug 17, 2009, 06:24 AM
Which league do you use. I have tried a few but ended up liking
http://fantasy.premierleague.com/ which is a bit restrictive but enjoyable.

Yep, that is the one I use.

I'm the Chairman of my own private league within that game.. last season, my private league had ~60 teams in it, and this season has ~90 teams in it - so, very competitive!!

Ozbenno
Aug 17, 2009, 08:24 AM
Haven't done a fantasy league for ages. Our indoor cricket team used to do the yahoo one but we lost interest a few years ago. We've got a big night out at the pub on Thursday night though for The Oval test.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 17, 2009, 01:03 PM
Back on topic,

Wrkboat and worker will take another 7 turns in Moscow then I suggest Settler, hopefully Gandhi will build settler from Delhi which is nearer his spare land to SW, there is a wheat just outside Delhi. Hopefully he will go there first. St Petes doesnt really have produciton for much should concentrate on growth and science. I would use wrkboat for seafood and maybe start another in St Petes to explore the islands to our east. Maybe even a galley that would have at least a chance to defend itself if needed???
Once we have three workers two can chop settler and one to improve other tiles for St Petes.

PP is needed for sci meth so maybe as Ian suggests put four turns into that??

McArine
Aug 17, 2009, 01:48 PM
I like city site 3 as well, but I don't think I would settle cities south of Gandhi. I think we should start scouting the nearest islands, to find more city sites.

I think printing press or gunpowder are both good ideas for research, we need both for nukes.
At some point we should get a GM from Moscow, he can be used for printing press.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 19, 2009, 12:39 PM
Played 15, Education bulbed, Settler built onway to settle site 3 area.

Turn 0 Switch from corn to scientist in St Petes still grow in four, workboat in 8, Edu in PP, GS in 4.

Turn 2 Moscow grows to 5,

Turn 3 Wrkboat => worker in Moscow.

IBT
225050

Turn 4 St Petes grows to 5, Isaac Newton is born in St Petes mentions something about falling apples so best cut those trees down before they become a health and safety hazard
Bulb Education, Onto Libralism.
225051
225052

Turn 7 Worker => Settler Moscow (14 turns)
Bump into Roosie SE of St Petes
225053
225054

Turn 8 St Petes Wrkboat => Library

Turn 12 Gold hooked, St Petes grows in one

Turn 15 Settler => Library

Notice Chinese borders to our north (no contact yet), one island to east of St Petes is cornered off by barb savages.
225055
Explored extent of site for city 3 and we have options of settling 1E for extra fish or 1S for Silver and Iron.
Also possible site slightly west to pick up fur.

No tech from Gandhi or Roosevelt as yet.

Ozbenno
Aug 19, 2009, 04:13 PM
Silver and iron is good if we can feed them, we need plenty of production for those ICBMs.

We should leave any trading of Education as close to Liberalism as possible.

mc-red
Aug 19, 2009, 04:19 PM
I know we have lot's of food but just want to point out that a farm 1S of Moscow adds 3F not 1 so is a pretty good improvement at some point.

Also, when time comes for nukes tacticals are also useful to build especially when enemy has defenses.

mc-red
Aug 19, 2009, 04:24 PM
Is city 6 1s of ice iron a possibility? thus leaving city 3 where originally planned.
It looks like 2 fish, 1 squirrel, iron, and silver for the 6th city.
But of course a weakish city 3.

ianw1610
Aug 20, 2009, 01:23 AM
So, presumably the 3 leaders we are yet to meet are Mao, Churchill & De Gaulle?? (thinking logically...)

I won't have access to the save for a few more days, but I think we should send out an exploring Galley/Trireme/Caravel to check for suitable city sites to the East.

Beeline for completing 5 cities. Then beeline for 5 Libraries + 5 Universities + Oxford... utilising chops, as per Isaac Newton's Health & Safety instruction, wherever possible...

Ralph_Jackson
Aug 20, 2009, 02:40 PM
I will be away from a Pc until Sunday evening so swap me if I come up please.

Ralph

ianw1610
Aug 21, 2009, 08:15 AM
So, our roster looks something like this...

Ozbenno
IanW
mc-red
mighty - Just played
McArine - Up next ??
Ralph
Edzako - Missing in Action ???

@McArine - are you available to take the next turnset?

Has anyone heard from Edzako???

Ozbenno
Aug 21, 2009, 06:33 PM
Has anyone heard from Edzako???

I PMed him with a link to this thread but never heard anything. He is obviously scared of the spoon. :lol:

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 22, 2009, 03:43 AM
WE shuld discuss what we want to do with the impending GS from St Petes, my vote goes for an academy but not sure which city is best, currently 24 beakers to Moscow and 20 to St Petes??

Ozbenno
Aug 22, 2009, 07:01 PM
Where do we want to put Oxford? That is where Academy should go. Moscow? Printing Press is probably the tech it will (partially) bulb.

ianw1610
Aug 23, 2009, 11:27 AM
A few selected messages to the members of the team, as follows...

@Ozbenno - They're Coming Home, They're Coming Home, They're Coming... ASHES Coming Home......

@Ozbenno - If one is playing on a turning pitch, and one has a choice of Nathan Hauritz or Stuart Clark, why on earth would one select Mr Clark......

@Ozbenno - Where's yer Ashes gone? Where's yer Ashes gone?

@Ozbenno - Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......

McArine
Aug 23, 2009, 12:28 PM
I can take the game now, I'll look at it tomorrow and post my thoughts.

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 23, 2009, 12:47 PM
@Oz - Just ask Ian how his football team are doing!!!

ianw1610
Aug 23, 2009, 01:33 PM
@Oz - Just ask Ian how his football team are doing!!!

Yes, Tim Cahill looks really depressed at the moment... I can't think why......

My vote goes to Moscow, by the way (for the Academy).

McArine
Aug 24, 2009, 02:38 PM
Regarding the great scientist coming soon. I think we need to decide what we want our cities to be. If we want Moscow to be a production hub, it should build workshops and not cottages.
So what do we want our cities to be, I suggest Moscow as production and St. Petersburg as commerce. So I think we should put academy in St.P.
The reason for this is that Moscow allready have most production, and St.P. have two gold mines.
I don't think we should bulb printing press, we doesn't have much use for it right now. And academy is good.

I will settle city 3. And I like placing a city south of, or on southern iron.
When Moscow is done with library, I'll start another settler.
When/if St.P. finishes library, I'll start a maceman if I've gotten iron hooked up, else I'll start a worker.

Worker actions, I'll hook up iron, mine the second gold, and try to get ivory hooked up.

I'll start a library in city 3.

mc-red
Aug 25, 2009, 02:20 PM
St Pete's will probably end up being Wall street if we build it.
The city around southern iron will boost trade routes.

Ozbenno
Aug 25, 2009, 04:09 PM
Don't build any military without a barracks first (except maybe longbows).

McArine
Aug 26, 2009, 06:56 AM
Regarding the great scientist coming soon. I think we need to decide what we want our cities to be. If we want Moscow to be a production hub, it should build workshops and not cottages.
So what do we want our cities to be, I suggest Moscow as production and St. Petersburg as commerce. So I think we should put academy in St.P.
The reason for this is that Moscow allready have most production, and St.P. have two gold mines.
I don't think we should bulb printing press, we doesn't have much use for it right now. And academy is good.
.

I'm still not clear on where to place academy.
Do we want Moscow to be a production hub?, then I don't think academy should go there.

My vote is for St.Pete. to be finance and research hub, and place academy there.

mc-red
Aug 26, 2009, 07:32 AM
I'm still not clear on where to place academy.
Do we want Moscow to be a production hub?, then I don't think academy should go there.

My vote is for St.Pete. to be finance and research hub, and place academy there.

I see your point. I have done Wall Street and Ox in same city it can work and even allows some micro in conjunction with binary research.

The need for a powerful production city is also clear.

So I'll go with St pete's as well.

ianw1610
Aug 26, 2009, 09:14 AM
I also would prefer a St Petes Academy, to make use of the superior Commerce.

Moscow can maybe get an Academy in the longer term, but not yet.

As for diplomacy with Roosevelt, maybe we should get Open Borders. Also, a World Map from him should help - he should be willing to trade with one of our maps (we may need to throw in 5 or 10 gold also).

If our Explorer moves to our northernmost hill, this will instigate contact with the Chinese... similarly, Open Borders and a World Map may be of use.

McArine
Aug 26, 2009, 01:43 PM
GOTM server appears to be down, will play tomorrow.

Academy in St. Pete.
St. Pete starts worker when library is done.
No need to connect iron that fast then, will improve some tiles instead.

Ozbenno
Aug 27, 2009, 01:37 AM
GOTM website is back BTW, both it and HOF website went down (as they are on the same server).

Ironworks is what we should be looking for Moscow (maybe Moai Statues or Heroic Epic as well), Oxford and maybe National Epic in St Petes.

McArine
Aug 27, 2009, 11:01 AM
Not much happened, followed the plan, got ivory hooked up and started on the horses.
Noone wanted to trade world map, all wanting Education for it. Got open borders with Mao and Roosevelt.

Turnlog:
Turn 312, 1460 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!
Turn 312, 1460 AD: Imhotep (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 313, 1465 AD: Heron (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 313, 1465 AD: The Sistine Chapel has been built in a far away land!

Turn 314, 1470 AD: Angkor Wat has been built in a far away land!

Turn 315, 1475 AD: Novgorod has been founded.
Turn 315, 1475 AD: Aryabhata (Great Scientist) has been born in St. Petersburg (Stalin)!

Turn 316, 1480 AD: Buddhism has spread in Novgorod.

Turn 317, 1485 AD: Coco Chanel (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 320, 1500 AD: Mao Zedong has founded Guangzhou in a distant land.

Turn 321, 1505 AD: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 27, 2009, 12:41 PM
We can use an artist specialist to help speed up border pops for new cities, we are about to run out of cash, so I recommend we run two more merchants in Moscow. This will also get us a GM in 10 which we can use to bulb most of Economics to bag us the free GM from there. Question is do we take Astro or Nationalism from Lib??. If any other civ gets a tech we should look to trade Education for it. Not sure where we want to put next settler to settle. There appears to be a lack of potential sites in our so far explored land. Best I can see are City site 5 with Maoi Statues and a site in SW which takes furs (or squirrels!!) and fish. We could settle on southern island south of silver but not sure this site is optimal.

ianw1610
Aug 27, 2009, 05:42 PM
Gandhi and Mao both have enough on their hands... do we think they will DoW one another? Or is there a risk that one or both could DoW us (given the "Aggressive AI" setting)? If they DoW us, we have a negligible army at present to cope with it.

Gandhi and Roosevelt are both willing to trade happiness resources to us (Silk and Dye), which will be useful for increasing our happiness cap.

From Liberalism, my vote goes for taking Astronomy, as I'd like us to beeline Physics, in order to reveal Uranium, and confirm that we are indeed settled close to Uranium.

@Ralph - I think you are the only one yet to play, so it is your turn now!

mc-red
Aug 28, 2009, 01:52 AM
site in SW which takes furs (or squirrels!!)l.

Squirrels circumvents the obligatory beaver jokes ;)

I am ok with a site in the SW. Just thought a city on other land mass would give us a bit of commerce boost but am not completely sold on it.

Astro from lib also sounds good.

Ozbenno
Aug 28, 2009, 03:25 AM
Happy with Astronomy from Liberalism.

We have to assume (rightly or wrongly) that both Mao and Gandhi are after us, more military would be good.

ruff_hi
Aug 28, 2009, 06:53 AM
Gandhi and Mao both have enough on their hands... do we think they will DoW one another? Or is there a risk that one or both could DoW us (given the "Aggressive AI" setting)? If they DoW us, we have a negligible army at present to cope with it.

We have to assume (rightly or wrongly) that both Mao and Gandhi are after us, more military would be good.You should be able to work out who they are gunning for based on relationships and relative strengths. Or am I teaching grandmothers to suck eggs?

mc-red
Aug 30, 2009, 04:28 AM
@Ruff
They are each others worst enemies probably because of peaceweights or something. We are not far behind and we share borders with Ghandi.
It seems possible Ghandi is after us and Mao after Ghandi. Or will that not happen when there is a worst enemy?

Any way we will soon be getting the usual requests to stop trading etc.
Do we premptively close borders with one or the other when the mandatory turns expire on the open borders?

Don't know how to factor in relative strength but close borders on same land mass are a consieration in AI DOW are they not?

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 30, 2009, 04:55 AM
Without looking, if Mao is after us he still has to get his troops onto our island, if Gandhi could be after us we should use our explorer to keep an eye on his cities to see what sort of forces he is pulling together. Either way we should try to limit our units to minimum this early as are hands are tied about any offensive action. Hammers are better spent to get us into good position for later game.

mc-red
Aug 30, 2009, 09:34 AM
Without looking, if Mao is after us he still has to get his troops onto our island, if Gandhi could be after us we should use our explorer to keep an eye on his cities to see what sort of forces he is pulling together. Either way we should try to limit our units to minimum this early as are hands are tied about any offensive action. Hammers are better spent to get us into good position for later game.

Mighty what about diplo? should we choose say ghandi and close borders with Mao which will tick him off and probably cause him to stop talking to us.
Or just keep denying stop trading and join war requests from both?

Mighty Dwaarf
Aug 30, 2009, 01:15 PM
Mighty what about diplo? should we choose say ghandi and close borders with Mao which will tick him off and probably cause him to stop talking to us.
Or just keep denying stop trading and join war requests from both?

If we were going to side with one or the other I would choose Gandhi as he would cause most problems for us if he DOW'd due to us sharing land borders.

Ralph_Jackson
Aug 31, 2009, 07:28 AM
Apologies for my silence but thats what swine flu will do to you. (it actually wasn't much worse than normal flu but still meant 4 days in bed). Will look at the game tonight and post some thoughts and my understanding of current plans with a view to playing and reporting tomorrow night!

Right

mc-red
Aug 31, 2009, 12:50 PM
Apologies for my silence but thats what swine flu will do to you. (it actually wasn't much worse than normal flu but still meant 4 days in bed). Will look at the game tonight and post some thoughts and my understanding of current plans with a view to playing and reporting tomorrow night!

Right

Sorry to hear about the flu hope you're better. Must have gotten too close to the great unwashed at the Fringe :p

Ralph_Jackson
Sep 01, 2009, 02:03 AM
Couldn't load (well could load it but not look at it properly) as I had the no "interface" issue rearing its ugly head.

A clean install and the HOF style fixes for Vista should hopefully clear it up letting me post thoughts tonight, it that all fails I will come back...

Ralph

ruff_hi
Sep 01, 2009, 08:19 AM
Couldn't load (well could load it but not look at it properly) as I had the no "interface" issue rearing its ugly head.Make sure that your customassets folder doesn't contain any mod (ie BUG). If so, just rename your customasset folder to something else. This is a known issue with BUFFY and will be fixed with the next BUFFY release.

Ralph_Jackson
Sep 01, 2009, 11:39 AM
Well Ruff Hi you had spotted it but with a good nights sleep I just remembered to delete Custom Assests and everything was Hunky Dory

So pre Play Plan

I will play through to Liberalism taking Astronomy as it seems a good stopping point and halting earlier if we are declared upon....

Diplomacy

Mao is Gandhi's worst enemey so hopefully we should be fine in repsect of him but I will
a) Give in to any "reasonable" Gandhi Demands (probably closing borders with Mao) and if he declares on Mao accept a phony war versus Mao (if asked) as that will leave us with a friendly neighbour which is no bad thing
b) Not give in to any Mao demands that would upset Gandhi and hope that Mao & Gandhi bang heads

Research Liberalism -> Astronomy

Builds
St Pete's Worker - University
Moscow Settler - Barracks? Not sure about this one so feel free to suggest alternatives

Trades. I will pick up the happiness resource trades from Rooise and Gandhi.

Site for Settler can wait for discussion prior to the next set

I will play report tomorrow so plenty of time for :smoke: detection...

Ozbenno
Sep 01, 2009, 03:06 PM
Sounds fine. I'd get Moscow building a few troops for a little while (after the barracks of course). We probably want to have some maces and the like that we can upgrade later in the game to have CR infantry.

Ralph_Jackson
Sep 02, 2009, 12:23 PM
Initial Actions

Assign a second Merchant in Moscow as it both improves our cahsflow and lets us choose between popping a scientist or GM next...

Do the Happiness trades as discussed..

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/trades-2.jpg

Take the chance of using our Explorer to scout out Gandhi’s forces which are not terrifying.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/gandhifroces.jpg

He has another city on his NW peninsula but again that just has a standard garrison of longbows and nothing much offensive in it.. Certainly doesn’t look like he has enough troops to declare an offensive war?

Meanwhile we continue down our path to Liberalism with Moscow going onto a barracks post its settler (which is lurking in Novgorod for a decision) and St Pete’s starting out on a University post its worker.

When not quite disaster but confess I was surprised...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/gadnhiwar.jpg

His amazing Army consist of a single catapult!! And yes there is no S of D waiting in his capital to pounce.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/gandhifroces2.jpg

We have dialled up a Longbow having finished the capitals barracks as without Iron hooked up Mace’s aren’t an option!!

Liberalism in, Astronomy taken as free tech,

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/liberalism.jpg


Printing Press selected but no Beakers invested yet, Gunpowder is an alternative?


Turn 327, 1535 AD: The borders of Moscow have expanded!
Turn 327, 1535 AD: Mahavira (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 328, 1540 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 4.
Turn 328, 1540 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 328, 1540 AD: The Temple of Solomon has been built in a far away land!
Turn 328, 1540 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Gandhi for Open Borders
Turn 328, 1540 AD: Deal Canceled: Crab to Gandhi for Silk
Turn 328, 1540 AD: Gandhi has declared war on you!

Turn 329, 1545 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Moscow!
Turn 329, 1545 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 8.
Turn 329, 1545 AD: Gandhi will trade Nationalism
Turn 329, 1545 AD: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Gandhi
Turn 329, 1545 AD: Moscow will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 329, 1545 AD: Stalin is the first to discover Liberalism!
Turn 329, 1545 AD: You have discovered Liberalism!
Turn 329, 1545 AD: Al-Razi (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 330, 1550 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Moscow!
Turn 330, 1550 AD: Moscow has grown to size 9.
Turn 330, 1550 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!


Cheers

ralph

ianw1610
Sep 02, 2009, 01:04 PM
My thoughts:

Recap of the Rules concerning Combat - as we are not yet in the Nuclear age, we are not allowed to capture any cities. If we lose one of our own cities, we are not allowed to re-capture it.

Military - we still need a few more Longbows - maybe chop a few forests in Moscow. Novgorod is not defended at all, so Gandhi could simply walk in and capture it!!

REX - now that Astronomy is in, we can build Galleons to sail our Settlers wherever we like. Maybe City 4 in the southern Ice to grab the Iron, Silver and Fish? City 5 still on the City 5 label? The 1-tile island is of no use to us as Moai is not available on later-era starts. Remember to beeline for Oxford, and don't forget we need one more Settler to accomplish this.

Research - I'd go for Economics, for the free Merchant. Then Printing Press - SciMeth - Physics for the free Scientist and to reveal Uranium (hopefully Gyathaar hasn't placed the only Uranium source on the aforementioned 1-tile island!!!)

Civics - I'd be tempted to use a turn of Anarchy to go to Hereditary Rule and Free Religion. HR for extra happiness (except for Novgorod!). FR to avoid diplomacy penalties... although Mao may well have already rolled the dice against us in that respect - he still has enough on his hands... The downside of FR is that we miss the Great Person bonus from Pacifism, but maybe it is worth the trade-off.

Circumnavigation bonus - this is a useful thing that we can aim for, as it would provide a ship movement bonus, which could help us in the later-game wars. Maybe send out a Galleon to sail the world. Hopefully we can meet the other 2 AI leaders also. Given that the "theme" of the game seems to be 20th Century leaders, the other 2 AIs are presumably Churchill and De Gaulle...

Roster - as there is still no sign of Edzako, it looks like we are back to the start...

Ozbenno - Up next
IanW
mc-red
mighty
McArine
Ralph - Just played
Edzako - Still Missing in Action

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 02, 2009, 02:34 PM
My thoughts:

Recap of the Rules concerning Combat - as we are not yet in the Nuclear age, we are not allowed to capture any cities. If we lose one of our own cities, we are not allowed to re-capture it.

Military - we still need a few more Longbows - maybe chop a few forests in Moscow. Novgorod is not defended at all, so Gandhi could simply walk in and capture it!!

REX - now that Astronomy is in, we can build Galleons to sail our Settlers wherever we like. Maybe City 4 in the southern Ice to grab the Iron, Silver and Fish? City 5 still on the City 5 label? The 1-tile island is of no use to us as Moai is not available on later-era starts. Remember to beeline for Oxford, and don't forget we need one more Settler to accomplish this.

Research - I'd go for Economics, for the free Merchant. Then Printing Press - SciMeth - Physics for the free Scientist and to reveal Uranium (hopefully Gyathaar hasn't placed the only Uranium source on the aforementioned 1-tile island!!!)

Civics - I'd be tempted to use a turn of Anarchy to go to Hereditary Rule and Free Religion. HR for extra happiness (except for Novgorod!). FR to avoid diplomacy penalties... although Mao may well have already rolled the dice against us in that respect - he still has enough on his hands... The downside of FR is that we miss the Great Person bonus from Pacifism, but maybe it is worth the trade-off.

Circumnavigation bonus - this is a useful thing that we can aim for, as it would provide a ship movement bonus, which could help us in the later-game wars. Maybe send out a Galleon to sail the world. Hopefully we can meet the other 2 AI leaders also. Given that the "theme" of the game seems to be 20th Century leaders, the other 2 AIs are presumably Churchill and De Gaulle...

Roster - as there is still no sign of Edzako, it looks like we are back to the start...

Ozbenno - Up next
IanW
mc-red
mighty
McArine
Ralph - Just played
Edzako - Still Missing in Action

I agree with Economics, we are due GM in five we could bulb at least the majority of the rest of Economics to guarantee free GM. Although as the three we have met have not even got Economics we could just use GM for a Golden Age. This would give us liberty to change civics as we wish and boost production etc. We should get a GS soon after too.

Military wise we definitely need to defend our third city, we should maybe move our Lbow from St Petes over for now, as soon as Moscow produces Lbow it can cover St Petes. From a quick look we can see that Gandhi has ivory and Iron so can build Phants and Maces we should look to build units to counter. If we get chance we should take opportunities to pillage Gandhis lands both for gold bonus and to hamper his growth.

I agree with points about diplo on FR, we do get 10% science bonus with this so may offset a little the slower GP. We can always change back once are main threats have changed to FR too.

Ozbenno
Sep 02, 2009, 05:52 PM
OK I see this, I'll load up the save later and post some ideas.

Ozbenno
Sep 05, 2009, 09:12 PM
Loaded up the save and I think defence, defence and more defence is the order of the day. We don't have the iron hooked up and have one city undefended. If we were in slvery I'd whip some defence but will switch all cities to longbow production and then crossbows when we have iron hooked up.

Not planning anything else but we could settle (marked) city #5 at some stage.

ianw1610
Sep 06, 2009, 05:05 AM
Loaded up the save and I think defence, defence and more defence is the order of the day. We don't have the iron hooked up and have one city undefended. If we were in slvery I'd whip some defence but will switch all cities to longbow production and then crossbows when we have iron hooked up.

Not planning anything else but we could settle (marked) city #5 at some stage.

We have a Settler in play anyway, so not sure if we would prefer to settle marked City 5, or to build a Galleon and sail the Settler to the southern Ice island, and settle to grab the Iron, Silver & 2 Fish...

Ralph_Jackson
Sep 07, 2009, 02:20 AM
Would southern ice island boost our trades routes making it the better chocie in terms of commerce?

Other than that keep re checking if Ghandi will take peace as with building up our defences plus hopefully losing a cat or two he may rapidly be prepared to return to his peaceful ways?

Ralph

Ozbenno
Sep 07, 2009, 06:57 AM
Southern ice will up our maintenance alot as its on a different landmass. Don't think the trade routes will compensate.

mc-red
Sep 07, 2009, 07:40 AM
Southern ice will up our maintenance alot as its on a different landmass. Don't think the trade routes will compensate.
ozbenno,
Are you sure about that? I would have thought with FM which we should have soon it would give 3 routes at 2 gold each so 3 commerce more than usual. All other cities would gain a 2 commerce route so at least 3 commerce extra from those.
That's at least a 6 commerce gain from being on the other land mass as opposed to same land mass.
Colony expenses don't kick in till the third city on a specific land mass.

ianw1610
Sep 07, 2009, 09:05 AM
Other than that keep re checking if Ghandi will take peace as with building up our defences plus hopefully losing a cat or two he may rapidly be prepared to return to his peaceful ways?

Ralph

With the new Mod, there is a ! sign beside Gandhi's name, signifying that he refuses to talk. When that ! disappears, he will talk.

Not sure what he will want in exchange for peace... maybe 200-300 gold. Hopefully not a technology!

Ozbenno
Sep 07, 2009, 03:39 PM
Didn't know the increased maintenence costs only started with third city on a landmass, thought it was all city not on the same landmass as the capital, if so, the extra commerce may be worth it.

Ozbenno
Sep 09, 2009, 01:58 AM
OK, as there were no dissenting voices, the first thing I do is switch all cities to longbow production and change research to Economics.

IBT, Gandhi's catapult retreats back into India :confused:

Hopefully this doesn't mean he's moving on undefended Novgorod.

To speed a longbow out of St Petes I fire two scientists, hire an engineer and work a 1F2P tile, gains 2 turns.

I move the St Pete's longbow to a mid-point that hopefuklly can move to either city in time.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4315/civ4screenshot0000t.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0000t.jpg/)

We pop a GM who will bulb some of Economics, left alone for now.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7774/civ4screenshot0002.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0002.jpg/)

I leave off, when the GM will bulb Economics to 1 turn, do we pull the trigger? I'd say so.

We have longbows in all cities and our first Knight in 2 turns, he could go pillaging if we want. I'd keep Moscow on military for the next while as well. Gandhi won't talk yet.

We could switch to galley in Novgorod if we want for the settler, in either case, we should consider settling the north (easily defended from Moscow) with a new settler asap.

ianw1610
Sep 10, 2009, 03:55 AM
My thoughts from Post 116 still hold. It would be good to get a Galleon in play, to meet the other 2 AIs. Free Religion sooner rather than later.

I agree with bulbing Economics. We would lose nothing (give up one GM in exchange for another GM). We would deny our rivals a GM, and enable Free Market.

Still waiting for Mao to DoW someone. If he goes for us, our Northern City 5 site may be at risk.

My turn again - I'll have a look at the save when I get home this evening.

Any suggestions welcome.

Ozbenno
Sep 10, 2009, 04:54 AM
If we do bulb, remember to do it right away before you press enter. I should have left the GM active but sort of forgot.

McArine
Sep 10, 2009, 08:52 AM
I also agree with bulbing economics.

I'd keep pumping out troops in Moscow for a while. And I agree that we should get a Galley out. I'd probably build it in Novgorod when Library is done.

Should we decide on southern site or site 5, before this turnset?
If we wait, we'll probably know who Mao declares against. Another good reason for waiting is, we probably wont be able to transport to southern site before next turn.
I'd go for waiting.

ianw1610
Sep 11, 2009, 03:06 AM
What are the thoughts of the team on revolting to Free Market and Free Religion (instead of Mercantilism and Pacifism)?

If Gandhi will accept peace in exchange for a technology (Education, presumably), should we accept?

For the free Great Merchant from Economics, I'm tempted to zzzzzz him for now. As Scientists will presumably be more abundant than Merchants, we can burn our next Great Scientist for Golden Age 1, and then the Physics Great Scientist + the Economics Great Merchant can be burned together for Golden Age 2.

BTW I was right about Churchill being in the game... according to the Military Advisor, Mao is Churchill's worst enemy. I'm also pretty sure De Gaulle is the other leader we are yet to meet.

mc-red
Sep 11, 2009, 03:33 AM
I think FM and FR when possible to get diplo in order.Bulb GM for me and maybe build a cash reserve for a cheaper peace?

ianw1610
Sep 11, 2009, 04:23 AM
After Economics comes in, what is the next bulbing preference of a GM? Constitution?? If so, I'd prefer either a long-distance trade mission from the Free GM, or zzzzzz for a later Golden Age - I wouldn't bulb Constitution.

mc-red
Sep 11, 2009, 06:16 AM
After Economics comes in, what is the next bulbing preference of a GM? Constitution?? If so, I'd prefer either a long-distance trade mission from the Free GM, or zzzzzz for a later Golden Age - I wouldn't bulb Constitution.

makes sense.
I am wondering how likely Ghandi was to have gone education first. If so trading it to him for peace wouldn't be so bad and we wouldn't have to waste cash (our :science: multipliers are better)

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 11, 2009, 10:40 AM
I would say we want to be in FM in long term but until other civs move from mercantilism is it worth it??

I think GM will bulb PP next but not 100% not worth bulbing that though. I would either use for GA now or save for one later.

mc-red
Sep 11, 2009, 12:29 PM
OK I just checked Ghandi favours culture to the extreme.
So if Nationhood is a military tech then he is probably indifferent/slightly disinclined to it compared to Education which is a science tech.
I think in general once education is unlocked non military type AI's will probably go education, edit:unless in Ghandi's case he has some built in tendency to build the Taj.
Still somewhat of a crapshoot compared to someone like Peter, Jao or Lincoln.

mc-red
Sep 11, 2009, 12:53 PM
ok I was wrong. Nationalism is very strongly weighted culture.
This means its extremely likely Ghandi went Nationalism.

Among other things it means without this stinking war we would have had a great trade opp. with him. Now we give up a monopoly for peace. :cry::cry::cry:

ianw1610
Sep 11, 2009, 04:15 PM
Gandhi already has Nationalism.

Roosevelt has Education.

Mao seems not to have completed the research of anything yet!

mc-red
Sep 11, 2009, 04:47 PM
Gandhi already has Nationalism.

Roosevelt has Education.

Mao seems not to have completed the research of anything yet!

Ok I didn't have save. The AI's have the first techs in or there abouts.

Rosy had a slightly higher chance of going Nationalism/PP if that was available at start and Mao has a slightly higher chance that he is going for Nationalism.

So it will be interesting if he does what Rosy did and go Education or if he goes Nationalism.

Anyway its all moot because I think we are all agreed we have to take peace whatever the cost.

Correct?

ianw1610
Sep 11, 2009, 05:20 PM
Anyway its all moot because I think we are all agreed we have to take peace whatever the cost.

Correct?

Yes, that is my intention.

I'll play in ~12 hours. Does anyone have any further suggestions?

Ozbenno
Sep 11, 2009, 10:18 PM
Not sure we want to give up Education for peace unless he starts taking this war seriously.

I think Free Market and Free Religion are the better choices for us but after the next GP pops maybe.

mc-red
Sep 12, 2009, 12:26 AM
Not sure we want to give up Education for peace unless he starts taking this war seriously.

I think Free Market and Free Religion are the better choices for us but after the next GP pops maybe.

Then we would need to build some cash reserves so the option for peace without putting edu comes up.
Otherwise, we would need to get a high enough kill ratio to make ghandi take peace cheaply.

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 12, 2009, 03:23 AM
I tend to agree with Oz, if we can get away with not making peace we shouldn't at the moment. If we get a few more troops in we can cover ourselves and maybe pillage a little. We can accumalate some xp towards first GG.

Ozbenno
Sep 12, 2009, 05:53 AM
Knights running around Gandhi's territory should help our peace cause.

ianw1610
Sep 12, 2009, 07:47 AM
Ok – I played the turnset, and we made some progress.

I began by bulbing the remainder of Economics, to get us another Great Merchant. Then I switched the research path to Printing Press --- SciMeth --- Physics, aiming at revealing the Uranium.

As it happened, the continued war with Gandhi was a bit of an anti-climax... I was able to speak with him on the 2nd turn of the turnset, and he was willing to take peace without taking anything in exchange, so I agreed. For the remainder of the turnset I looked at expanding up to 5 cities and accelerating the generation of Oxford University, for St Petersburg.

Gandhi agreed to trade Nationalism to us for Astronomy, which looked fair, so I agreed.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5138/ianw1610t343.jpg

Gandhi proved that the world was round, so no ship navigation bonus for us. Mao built he Taj Mahal, so no extra Golden Age for us.

Then we got another Great Scientist from St Petersburg – the Merchant and Scientist are both asleep in Moscow at the moment, so we can do as we please with them.

After that, I moved us to Free Market and Free Religion.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3946/ianw1610t346.jpg

I built the next 2 cities in successive turns, at the points we discussed. First, Rostov, to the South...

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/715/ianw1610t347.jpg

...and then, Yaroslavl, to the North...

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9590/ianw1610t348.jpg

Our exploring Galleon then met the remaining 2 AIs. As expected, the theme of the game is indeed “Leaders of the 20th Century”. So, first, we met Mister Winston, who kindly agreed to Open Borders with us...

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9159/ianw1610t350.jpg

...but his big-nosed Gallic friend Monsieur Charles chose not to afford us such a privilege...

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4681/ianw1610t352.jpg

The military situation is shown below. Churchill and CDG both have enough on their hands. Mao is as before (still enough on his hands, not yet DoW’d anyone). Gandhi once again has enough on his hands. None of the 4 holds us as a Worst Enemy.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5956/ianw1610t353.jpg

I’ve been concentrating on REX, Libraries and Universities... in the next turnset we will probably need more defensive military units.

Finally, a shot of our current lands...

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3849/ianw1610t354.jpg

Roster:
Ozbenno
IanW – Just Played
mc-red – Up Next
mighty
McArine
Ralph
Edzako – Missing in Action


Here is your Session Turn Log from 1585 AD to 1670 AD:

Turn 337, 1585 AD: John Maynard Keynes (Great Merchant) has been born in Moscow (Stalin)!
Turn 337, 1585 AD: You have discovered Economics!

Turn 340, 1600 AD: You have made peace with Gandhi!
Turn 340, 1600 AD: Andrei Sakharov (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 340, 1600 AD: Gandhi adopts Caste System!
Turn 340, 1600 AD: Gandhi has proven that the world is round!

Turn 343, 1615 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!

Turn 344, 1620 AD: Louis Pasteur (Great Scientist) has been born in St. Petersburg (Stalin)!
Turn 344, 1620 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 346, 1630 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 346, 1630 AD: Stalin adopts Free Market!
Turn 346, 1630 AD: Stalin adopts Free Religion!
Turn 346, 1630 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 347, 1635 AD: Rostov has been founded.
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Henry Bessemer (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 348, 1640 AD: Yaroslavl' has been founded.
Turn 348, 1640 AD: Zhang Heng (Great Engineer) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!
Turn 348, 1640 AD: Mao Zedong's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 348, 1640 AD: The Taj Mahal has been built in a far away land!

Turn 349, 1645 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a University.
Turn 349, 1645 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a University.
Turn 349, 1645 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 349, 1645 AD: Gandhi has completed Shwedagon Paya!

Turn 350, 1650 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!
Turn 350, 1650 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' have expanded!

Turn 351, 1655 AD: Islam has spread in Rostov.
Turn 351, 1655 AD: Nikolaus August Otto (Great Engineer) has been born in New York (Roosevelt)!
Turn 351, 1655 AD: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 353, 1665 AD: Roosevelt will trade Gunpowder

Turn 354, 1670 AD: Gandhi will trade Gunpowder

mc-red
Sep 12, 2009, 09:36 AM
Good call on our opponents.
Ghandi what a wimp :rolleyes:
Give me a couple of days to look at the save re-read comments and post some thoughts.

Ozbenno
Sep 12, 2009, 03:52 PM
Except for the fact he was in WHEOOH before, it is as if he was bribed into declaring on us.

Anyway, good turns, I think we run towards Uranium and then the bomb from here, so maces and defense will be good. Are there any trades we can pick up (Gunpowder would be good).

Ozbenno
Sep 12, 2009, 07:07 PM
BTW, I'd use the GS to bulb us along the PP/SciMeth/Physics path, the GM we could keep for a future GA or send on a trade mission.

We are the furthest advanced (time wise) of all the teams so no great hurry here, we can take the time to consider our options and plans.

mc-red
Sep 12, 2009, 09:51 PM
BTW, I'd use the GS to bulb us along the PP/SciMeth/Physics path, the GM we could keep for a future GA or send on a trade mission.

We are the furthest advanced (time wise) of all the teams so no great hurry here, we can take the time to consider our options and plans.
This seems like a good idea. The game setup seems to require very fast tech early on and then its all about production.
GA will help once we get our pop up which means I won't get a GA in my turnset yet again :cry:
I will definately focus millitary defense as the aggressive AI setting is going to make things dicy.
I am still trying to get my head around what exactly happened with Ghandi. If he was bribed then who was it? I had no idea that can happen when an AI is not already at war with us.

mc-red
Sep 13, 2009, 10:45 AM
I am looking at save putting together some thoughts.
Will play follow Oz's advice and wait till tomorrow at least to actually play, so any comments appreciated.

mc-red
Sep 13, 2009, 11:46 AM
I'll get some thoughts down but modify the post before my turn set.

Diplomatic Picture:
The AI's have broken into blocks as would be predicted by their peaceweights. Churchill is a bit of a wild card but likely to be closer to Roosy and Ghandi depending on what we do.
We should probably have a diplomatic strategy to guide future requests/demands and also for us to create :mischief: when possible. Throwing in civic change requests, stop trade clauses in tech trades.

Churchill
He could end up in either the Ghandi, Roosy block or get close to
DeGaulle. De Gaulle because of potential shared war and shared civic bonuses.
He is the most likely to research military techs and
probably a useful ally. He can easily be bribed for both trade embargos and for outright war.
He has a very high probability of demanding a switch to Nationhood and we should think about acquiescing for the plus 1 or getting him out of Nationhood.

DeGaulle
De Gaulle will be the hardest to get favorable with. He makes demands
and a very high rate, has a very low peaceweight and will always be
upset about worst enemies trades. His favorite trade is Nationhood so
he might with a shared war become closer to Churchill.
I think if we can pacify Mao we should strongly consider him as the second target after Ghandi.
He seems to have been given a lot of space to expand. He loves production techs and most worryingly is the only AI with a UNITAI ICBM value of 100. No idea what that means but I have a spreadsheet full of numbers and that is one of them for DeGaulle.


Mao
Will be a problem for now but later if we go State Property and he
goes out of a religion he might warm up some. Especially, if we share a war against Ghandi with him.

Ghandi
Probably first to go which will appease De Gaulle and Mao for a while.
Milk him for some trades first.


Short Term Tactical Goals

Oxford up and running-you know you are following Ianw when the prerequistes to Ox. are going up ASAP.
Some defensive units
Another galleon maybe
Do we need to do anything on espionage front. Like allocate all spy points on Mao. De Gaulle, Mao, Churchill, and Roosy are all near the top end in espionage loving AI's so this part of the game may be quite a hassle.
5) 10 XP unit for Heroic Epic - those warriors next Parthian look very tempting but we need to get a galleon and some units over there for some easy XP. Also, taking that city might be worth while.
Bulb PP and beeline Physics
Fishing boat (thanks Ianw)


Edit: Looking at map again. I just can't see De Gaulle and Churchill getting along. Also, most likely Mao demanded Ghandi attack us if indeed Ghandi was bribed.
This would mean an immenent Mao declaration. Long term if we get peace with Mao I think the over all plan should be to appease Mao and Churchill and turn on them once Ghandi and DeGaulle are gone.
One concern is De Gaulle rolling Churchill because despite Churchill's millitary advantages he looks a little penned in.

ianw1610
Sep 13, 2009, 03:12 PM
Concerning the Barbarian cities - I think the Nuke rule applies to those also, so we can't capture any of them until we have nuked them first.

Gandhi and Roosevelt should both give up Gunpowder in exchange for Liberalism + Economics. One turn before the end of my turnset I thought about getting Gunpowder from Roosevelt in exchange for Astronomy... but I decided to hold on for one more turn... and in the IBT Roosevelt undertook that exact same trade with Gandhi, so we can no longer use Astronomy as bait for Roosevelt!!!

mc-red
Sep 13, 2009, 04:03 PM
Concerning the Barbarian cities - I think the Nuke rule applies to those also, so we can't capture any of them until we have nuked them first.

Gandhi and Roosevelt should both give up Gunpowder in exchange for Liberalism + Economics. One turn before the end of my turnset I thought about getting Gunpowder from Roosevelt in exchange for Astronomy... but I decided to hold on for one more turn... and in the IBT Roosevelt undertook that exact same trade with Gandhi, so we can no longer use Astronomy as bait for Roosevelt!!!

Ahh the dang nuke rule :smoke:
I'll try to get the best trade maybe with Roosy as we want him happy with us for longer than Ghandi.

What about being generous with resource trades to get the you have traded with us bonus down the road.

Churchill has a solitary gpt and rosy has none but we could trade sea food to them on the cheap.

I think given the advanced tech status of everyone and underdeveloped empires we will not be seeing a lot of free GPT from the AI.

edit:
I think we still assault the barb city just not take the last defender to unlock the HE. We could use a treb to keep tagging the defender every time he heals
past 40% for 1 XP a pop if need be.

ianw1610
Sep 13, 2009, 04:18 PM
It depends on whether or not we would want Sid's Sushi in the long-term. If not, then giving away our excess seafood to improve relations may be a good idea. BTW our new city in the NW still needs one more Workboat as one of the seafood is not yet being worked.

mc-red
Sep 13, 2009, 04:21 PM
I personally see state property for this game but we can always cancel after 10 turns so I think I will do it unless there are strong objections.
State prop. keeps Mao happy in future plus the production benefits.
I just don't see how corps will fit in to the timeline of this game.

Ozbenno
Sep 13, 2009, 04:28 PM
Be carefult of milking XP from the barb city as we certainly don't want an accidental capture. No problems trading away excess resources, we can always get them back later.

can we squeeze an extra city in somewhere? Would be useful.

mc-red
Sep 13, 2009, 04:29 PM
That's why I suggested treb for last defender no way to capture that way.

mc-red
Sep 13, 2009, 04:41 PM
city wise I can't see any of the slim candidates being any good.

There is a sheep/clam spot on a plainshill jammed up against the barb city, a one tile fish island, and an icy whale/seafood spot that looks even colder than our current silver/fish city.

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 13, 2009, 05:10 PM
Since we are in FM we need to tempt others out of mercantalism therefore we need to spread Economics. Roosy's fave is Mercantalism so he is not going to change without a push.
I tend to side with MC about favouring State Property in this one. We are going to need a hell of a lot of hammers for nukes, but once we get access to these science is so important. We have lots of food at the moment so dont need the extra from sids.

mc-red
Sep 14, 2009, 02:27 AM
I think we also need more workers. Without slavery production is limited and are already working unimproved tiles. We have four for five cities I think that should be 6 workers and we need a means to ship them.

I really think they will speed everything up. That means with our limited cities some of the build queues will switch to defense, a galleon and workers or do we continue to slow build the libs/uni's.
My preference is for the former except in St Pete's of course which has only one reason to exist.

I could hold of on a galleon and have silver fish build its own worker but a galleon can help ship units later anyway for XP hunting.
The first should continue to explore. If the explorer is not on the ship maybe he should get dropped off somewhere too.

ianw1610
Sep 14, 2009, 04:06 AM
Also worth noting that Moai Statues is unavailable in later-era starts, so sites such as the 1-tile island would not be feasible.

When we get around to building Oxford, we obviously need to put it in St Petes, along with the Gold mines and Scientist specialists.

mc-red
Sep 14, 2009, 05:47 AM
Also worth noting that Moai Statues is unavailable in later-era starts, so sites such as the 1-tile island would not be feasible.

When we get around to building Oxford, we obviously need to put it in St Petes, along with the Gold mines and Scientist specialists.

Yep, I also see Moscow as the HE/IW city.
With Caste workshops, Bearuo, and State prop this should spit out :nuke:

Which reminds me I don't think we should be growing cottages in Moscow so I am going to switch the citizen away from that and the coast and go Rice/Merchant instead.

Also, I am going to put all spy points on Mao for reasons mentioned earlier unless objected to.

Finally, I reall think DeGaulle is the AI set up to give us problems.

Each AI has something called UNITAI. There are several categories and each AI essentially favors one.
For example
GK->pillage
Cathy-> counter
Churchill-> city defense
ghandi-> worker :rolleyes:

and De Gaulle -> ICBM

mc-red
Sep 14, 2009, 05:15 PM
I started by setting our meager espionage points onto Mao.
Taking the 1 GPT trade for fish with Churchill and gifting fish to
Roosy.
Then I made the gunpowder trade with Ghandi and he became pleased.
He didn't switch immediately to FM and I am not sure if he has by the
end of the turn set.
PP was almost in so the plan was to bulb Sci. Meth and finish it off
this turn set.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2442/civ4screenshot0022.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9444/civ4screenshot0023.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8963/civ4screenshot0024.jpg

I stopped working the cottage and coast and moved to the rice and a
merchant. I think in the long run that cottage will get workshopped over.
Although, I went back to working it later when I swapped the rice over
to St Petes. We probably have to keep the rice going back and forth
to keep both cities growing or running specialists.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2711/civ4screenshot0025p.jpg

I wonder if these barbs are part of a minor civ like because they seem
to have a decent amount of culture.

De Gaulle gave us a cheap peace treaty and actually thought we gave
him tribute.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4324/civ4screenshot0026.jpg

t82 PP is in.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9966/civ4screenshot0027.jpg

I picked up the explorer to check out all this land to Ghandi's
West. I have a feeling we will need to get a couple of cities out here
for resources.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4527/civ4screenshot0028.jpg

Dial up the scientist and bulb Sci. Meth

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5214/civ4screenshot0029r.jpg


Ghandi has MT

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/347/civ4screenshot0030r.jpg

Ghandi provides a happy to get us growing again. I was already
building a theatre in St. Pete's to address the cap issue.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7042/civ4screenshot0031.jpg

Explorer and Galleon continue Island hopping.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/2488/civ4screenshot0032.jpg

T88 The barbs got a galley to pop out of the fog and I had the worker I built
stranded in a forest If the barbs land he's a goner on the next
turn. Maybe they will just pillage our nets. 45 hammer loss versus
90. I start a trireme in St Petes. :mad:

T89 As expected worker is gone and a mace and LB take his place. St. Petes
had started a tireme the turn before.



T90 Sci. Meth. comes in and the mace suicided on our city.
A mace I had built sitting is between Moscow and City 5 looking out
for Mao is on his way he is at St Petes. He can hit the LB this turn
if desired. A LB just completed in Moscow. The Mace suicided and the
LB will likely fortify this turn. GHandi has an Jumbo in the area. We
could hold off on attacking with the mace and see if Ghandi goes for
the barb.


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5855/civ4screenshot0034.jpg


Oil is revealed out in the boonies...
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1852/civ4screenshot0035.jpg

... and in the ice near the barb city

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/7903/civ4screenshot0036.jpg


Final tech picture
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3922/civ4screenshot0037.jpg



Here is your Session Turn Log from 1670 AD to 1714 AD:

Turn 354, 1670 AD: You have discovered Gunpowder!

Turn 356, 1680 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a University.

Turn 358, 1690 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Alexandre Gustave Eiffel (Great Engineer) has been born in York (Churchill)!
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Mao Zedong's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 359, 1695 AD: You have constructed a University in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Theatre.

Turn 361, 1702 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a University.

Turn 363, 1706 AD: Gandhi adopts Free Religion!

Turn 364, 1708 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on National Epic.

Turn 365, 1710 AD: The enemy has been spotted near St. Petersburg!
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 6.
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 7.
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to De Gaulle for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: You have constructed a University in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Virgil (Great Artist) has been born in Beijing (Mao Zedong)!
Turn 365, 1710 AD: While defending, your Worker 1 (Moscow) was destroyed by a Barbarian Maceman!

Turn 366, 1712 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Novgorod!
Turn 366, 1712 AD: The enemy has been spotted near St. Petersburg!
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Gandhi has 170 gold available for trade.
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Moscow.
Turn 366, 1712 AD: You have discovered Scientific Method!
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Barbarian's Maceman (8.00) vs Stalin's Longbowman 7 (Novgorod) (11.70)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Combat Odds: 8.0%
Turn 366, 1712 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 366, 1712 AD: Stalin's Longbowman 7 (Novgorod) has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 366, 1712 AD: While defending, your Longbowman 7 (Novgorod) has killed a Barbarian Maceman!

Turn 367, 1714 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Novgorod!

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility



To Next Player:
We can now trade wine with Churchill so when possible renegotiate the fish deal with him.
When the peace treaty with De Gaulle ends remember to cancel the fish deal with him or renogotiate to keep the shared resource counter ticking.
It will be a lot easier to get a naval unit to 10XP than a land unit. With so many barb infested islands out there.

mc-red
Sep 15, 2009, 02:53 AM
sorry for those giant screenies I forgot to resize.
Also, should have more state of the world pix.

Some last thoughts:
We should grow St Petes now before we go rep. when it should work max scientists.
I found micro'ing Moscow and St Petes to be effective. Running slider at 0 1/3 of time and 100 2/3 of time. Can sort of switch Moscow from low Food, high merchants to high food, low merchants while doing opposite for St Petes. Allowing them to share rice.
During the 0% slider part of cycle St Petes can work some hammers too.

We probably need a hammer efficient navy. I was thinking a three stack of galleon/caravel/trireme for the Barb force of initially galleys and triremes but soon caravels and then later galleons.
By then we hopefully have another galleon or we have chemistry in trade.

ianw1610
Sep 15, 2009, 04:15 PM
That Barb Longbowman looks quite menacing, given that our defender in Novgorod has neither a City Garrison promotion, nor is Novgorod on a hill. I'd be tempted to hit the Barb immediately with the St Pete's Maceman, to weaken him... sure, we may lose our Maceman, but that is far superior to losing Novgorod!

At some point in the next couple of turnsets, we can build a couple more Settlers, although I'd wait until Physics is in before building any more cities... if Gyathaar has indeed hidden the Uranium on some obscure island, we should be in a position to run off and claim it.

That Great Merchant is still sitting in Moscow. We need to decide what to do with him - Golden Age? or Trade Mission?

@mighty up next...

Ozbenno
Sep 15, 2009, 09:11 PM
I'd be inclined to save the GM for a later GA, we will need to change our civics for a war footing and can use the GA to do this as well as give a boost to unit production.

mc-red
Sep 16, 2009, 06:49 AM
I'd be inclined to save the GM for a later GA, we will need to change our civics for a war footing and can use the GA to do this as well as give a boost to unit production.
We might also have option to change to rep.
This is another reason to emphasize growth now as GA benefits from more pop. Especially, St Petes. which hopefully can get at least NE before the GA to really accumulate some GPP. I had to change my build to boats but was originally going to start NE.

McArine
Sep 21, 2009, 07:26 AM
Posting the roster, did we loose Mighty Dwaarf?
I'll go ahead if Mighty doesn't shout within a couple of days.

Roster:
Ozbenno
IanW
mc-red – Just Played
mighty– Up Next
McArine - On Deck
Ralph
Edzako – Missing in Action

ianw1610
Sep 21, 2009, 09:28 AM
Posting the roster, did we loose Mighty Dwaarf?
I'll go ahead if Mighty doesn't shout within a couple of days.

Roster:
Ozbenno
IanW
mc-red – Just Played
mighty– Up Next
McArine - On Deck
Ralph
Edzako – Missing in Action

Not sure what has happened to @mighty. Maybe give him until Wednesday morning, and then you, @McArine, can play if nothing is posted from him by then.

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 21, 2009, 01:15 PM
Posting the roster, did we loose Mighty Dwaarf?
I'll go ahead if Mighty doesn't shout within a couple of days.

Roster:
Ozbenno
IanW
mc-red – Just Played
mighty– Up Next
McArine - On Deck
Ralph
Edzako – Missing in Action

Actually do feel a little loose today, but thats another story. Sorry guys did not realise it was myself up.

Well it appears we've hit a bit of a doldrums situation. Is at current rate approx 40 turns for Physics. I agree that hammers are going to be crucial to build nukes but we have got to figure how to build them first. I dont think building workshops is critical at the moment. I'm still not convinced we will need much of a force to face upto any possible Mao invasion. We can get our troops trained up a little by sending them over fight barbs on nearby islands.
Am I wrong in thinking we should do something with our GM, we will get another at current settings in 25 turns. We could send on trade mission which would allow us to run some deficit research which will bring Physics down to approx 25 turns. We have no cash multiplier buildings so this will allow us to make better use of libraries and uni's.
Do we want to settle any more cities?? If we do we should do sooner rather than later to avoid the best island spots to be taken by others. Myself I'm not convinced as I cant really see any stand out spots at the moment but I may have missed one?? Although maybe prudent as Ian states to have a settler out to claim any uranium if needed. We are in FM so we need to get others out of Merc, I think we should trade Economics around when possible (apart from to Roosy), we can trade to Churchill for gold and world map, although we still have to rely on them choosing to change civics rather than being able to force their hand.

mc-red
Sep 22, 2009, 07:11 AM
Once again I apologize for those screenies. I'll put the whole thing in spoiler tags.

Does anyone know the way to get the amount for a trade mission without moving merchant. ???
Theres some key combination which lets you hover over target city and gives this.
I am wondrering how much we get with the stunted AI start as they try to grow their cottages. Also will have to be careful not to get picked off en route if Mao or someone else DOW's
@mighty
On the science situation. I still think debate should be over farms versus workshops and not working and growing cottages. By the time they mature we have to pave them over.
I think we will get Constitution(REP) and chem. (+1 :hammers:) soon.
Running deficit food with rep specialists should be better than cottages. The workshops can build wealth if we run out of builds or will be idle. Our pops are not that high unless we devote some turns to growth to work everything and hire the specialists.

Anyhow, thats just my 2c I am fine with any decision.
Also, GA with NE and OX in place and close to max pop should be worth the wait but again ok with any decision on this.

Most of the time we are eating food running specialists and not working the workshops.
Workshops in the absence of slavery provide an option for hammers if the need arises.
EDIT: The +1:hammers: for each workshop becomes +2 :hammers: thanks to our insta forges in each city.

McArine
Sep 22, 2009, 09:04 AM
I think we should expand to more of the smaller islands. I can see a some that could be interesting. There are also spots on Maos continent that are interesting.
I think we should use the GM for a trade mission, so we can run higher research, until we get gold buildings going.
I think we should dedicate some of our cities for cottages, and some for workshops.
We will need production at this point in the game too. We'll need a lot of troops to take our opponents, even after nuking their cities, they'll still have defense, and with luck we can beat them with less advanced units.

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 22, 2009, 11:49 AM
MC - Never thought about using wealth/research builds to prop up economy. I like that idea. I think I am panicking a little in this game late stats, nukes and SE's are out of my comfort zone. I guess with Communism being next tech after Physics and Biology not far off cottages will be possibly redundant.
Mac - Still not sure where any small island sites maybe, one problem we will have will be defending small islands cities. We will need large garrisons there as not as if we can straightforwardly (Have I just made up that word??) retake the city. Although once we have airships we can cast a wide observational (another new word??) net.

ianw1610
Sep 22, 2009, 02:25 PM
Does anyone know the way to get the amount for a trade mission without moving merchant. ???

It is something like 750 + 300*(the usual gold per turn from a trade route with the chosen city). Hopefully this disregards the eventuality of the target civ running Mercantilism!

The best strategy is usually to go to the biggest city in the World, which in this case is London (as we don't have Open Borders to get to Paris).

Ozbenno
Sep 22, 2009, 04:28 PM
Only cities that can give us enough production to build military or generate enough gold to pay for themselves are probably worth settling.

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 23, 2009, 01:13 AM
Only cities that can give us enough production to build military or generate enough gold to pay for themselves are probably worth settling.

Or gives us access to uranium!!
I'll take another look tonight and detail some plans

mc-red
Sep 23, 2009, 01:50 AM
On cash generation and because we are industrious. If we have good production we can get failed wonder cash. Early on we had a chance with Shewan... but it there was too much else to do.
Probably still the case with uni's and OX/NE priority.

When I have marble or indstrious trait and a lot of production cities I like to systematically build hermitage to within a turn of completion in multiple cities and then finally complete it in a culturally threatened city. Usually brings in bags of :gold:
Not sure we can even build hermitage here on a late start but ...

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 24, 2009, 12:00 PM
Ok,

Firstly, See off barb lbow, could promote mace to cover which should give probability but would prefer to hit with knight in moscow which has 71% as cover will soon be outdated promotion. If we keep all units change Moscow to Galleon to transport GM and then move units to barb training ground.
Three cities concentrating on getting Unis, Moscow and St Petes few more units and if time Moscow start bank and St petes Obs. If foreign trade routes become available then harbours too.
Foreign diplo, renegotiate fish to roosy for 2gpt, what do we think of trading away economics??

ianw1610
Sep 24, 2009, 01:47 PM
Good idea to hit the Barb with a Knight first, then finish him off with a Mace if necessary.

The AIs need Economics to get out of Mercantilism and into Free Market - we can't get trade rotes with them otherwise.

- Roosevelt won't do it due to favourite Civic being Merc.
- Mao is unlikely to revolt until he can go to State Property.
- CDG won't give Open Borders so we can't trade with him anyway.
- Gandhi is on the same continent so trade routes will have a low yield.
- Which leaves us with Churchill... maybe we can ensure he gets Economics, and that he switches to Free Market......

Ozbenno
Sep 24, 2009, 04:32 PM
My civ playing computer has died so I'll be out of the playing loop for a little while but will keeps tabs on things.

Ozbenno
Sep 29, 2009, 12:53 AM
Hey Mighty, you got this :mischief:

Two teams have played past our date now :mad:

Mighty Dwaarf
Sep 29, 2009, 01:35 AM
Hi guys sorry but RL has been pretty busy and will be for next few weeks, this leaves me with little time to get to civ activities. I'm going to have to pass playing sets until further notice. I'll try to keep up with where we are and add something when I can.

McArine
Sep 29, 2009, 05:31 AM
Sounds like I have the game, will take a look and post playing thoughts today, will play thursday.

McArine
Sep 29, 2009, 10:48 AM
Playing plans:
Rostov: Library -> University.
Yaroslavl: Library -> University.
Novgorod: No changes.
St.Petersburg: Trireme -> Market.
Moscow: Maceman -> Galleon -> Knight.

Move the GM towards London, for a trade mission.
Remove the barb longbowman, and start cleaning up on barb island.
No other short term plans.

ianw1610
Sep 29, 2009, 03:38 PM
Playing plans:
Rostov: Library -> University.
Yaroslavl: Library -> University.
Novgorod: No changes.
St.Petersburg: Trireme -> Market.
Moscow: Maceman -> Galleon -> Knight.

Move the GM towards London, for a trade mission.
Remove the barb longbowman, and start cleaning up on barb island.
No other short term plans.

I'd go for an Observatory in St Pete's, instead of a Market, to make the most of the Scientist specialists. Other than that, I'm fine with the above.

As noted above, hit the Barb Longbowman with our Knight and/or Maceman, before trying to hit him with one of our own Longbowmen.

Ozbenno
Sep 29, 2009, 04:22 PM
Remove the barb longbowman, and start cleaning up on barb island.


Remember not to capture anything ;)

McArine
Oct 01, 2009, 11:17 AM
Played ten. Not good news.

Removed the barbarian longbowman at first attempt with the Knight.
Got the wine from Churchill for fish.
Builds went as planned.

The trireme finished, and it started cruising the barb waters. It found a galley, and started hunting it.

It moved towards Rostow and unloaded this...

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2488/civ4screenshot0032.jpg

Needless to say, they captured the city at first attempt :mad:

I then traded rice for silk with Gandhi, to remove a couple of unhappy faces.

After the Moscow Galleon, I started a settler to get another fifth city.

ianw1610
Oct 01, 2009, 12:05 PM
:cry::cry::cry:

Just like SGOTM9 all over again. At least it didn't happen on my turnset this time... :mischief:

According to the rules of the game, we can't re-capture Rostov (I suppose it may culture-flip back to us, but anyway...) I'd put our new 5th City to the SW of Novgorod, to the W of the 2 Furs, on the coast. I'd chop a few forests to hurry the Library and University in that new city, to facilitate Oxford Uni. I'd stay away from the Western islands for now, just until we see where Uranium is located...

I'd also defend our new city with quite a strong fleet of ships, to prevent Barb attacks from Rostov.

As for National Wonders, are we planning on something like this:

Moscow - Ironworks & Heroic Epic
St Petes - Oxford Uni & Wall Street
Yaroslav - Globe & National Park

??? - National Epic
??? - Forbidden Palace

We may want to gift Economics to Churchill, and persuade him to run Free Market, as our economy could benefit from some cross-continental trade routes.

On the next turnset, go ahead with Great Merchant Trade Mission to London, and trying to build up some XP versus Barbs without taking (or re-taking) any cities.

@Ralph is up next - has anyone heard from him lately???

Ozbenno
Oct 01, 2009, 04:05 PM
Deary me, what defense did we have. Can we make sure that we have decent defense (at least three CG promoted longbows) everywhere else.

We should probably check whether culture flips are allowed (can barb cities culture flip?)

McArine
Oct 01, 2009, 11:39 PM
We had one longbow in Rostow.

And the game is with no culture flipping. If we want it, we're going to have to take it.

Currently all cities have two defenders, though not all longbows.

mc-red
Oct 02, 2009, 03:08 AM
Ouch bad break
Definately need a navy take the barbs out before they land.
I had earlier suggested 1 or 2 triremes a caravel and a galleon. The reason being the intial spawns will have been galleys but as these get taken out we will see Galleons and Caravels from the barbs as astro has spread around. I am now thinking we go straight to galleons because some time has passed and the AI's have probably been killing many of the originally spawned galleys.

There is a large area of barb culture which may be set up as a minor civ and they will have the ability to build galleons. We also have the Mao threat percolating.

Also, I'll reiterate my preference for production tile improvements.

ianw1610
Oct 02, 2009, 03:44 AM
Our Longbowman in Rostov lost the first battle to the first CR2 Maceman, despite having 25% city defence from the unit, a further 25% defence from fortification and 20% cultural defence from the city. Combat odds were 75% in our favour, but we lost. As for our Trireme, which we lost to a Barb Galley, the Combat odds were 78% in our favour, but we were again defeated - I wonder if the other teams suffer Random Number Generator robberies as badly as we have just done?!

Even if we had burned our Great Merchant for a Golden Age, revolted to Slavery, and whipped a 2nd Longbowman into Rostov, we would still probably have lost the city, as the second CR2 Maceman would presumably have taken out a Longbowman with zero fortification bonus.

Does anyone have any comments on my suggested city location / National Wonders, as above?

@Ralph - are you available to play next?

@Oz - have you now fixed your Civ-playing computer?

Ozbenno
Oct 02, 2009, 04:00 AM
I'm running on my wife's computer. Haven't figured out getting BUFFY to work with Vista without errors on it at yet.

mc-red
Oct 02, 2009, 04:51 AM
I originally thought we should put NE in Oxford city and I believe Oz suggested this earlier because
WS is a long way away. Although now with the need to build boats I am not as sure the build of NE is put off and the trade off seems to favour WS.
Oz?

edit:
The city location makes sense. It's criteria should be help get oxford and be easy to defend. ergo no other options.

mc-red
Oct 02, 2009, 06:05 AM
I am still amazed where that galley came from.
I was convinced we would be attacked from the same route the first one came.
It almost always works like that. Then we have to just defend a single choke point coastal tile with a few boats.
This second galley must have come from a second city in the fog.
Bummer !

ianw1610
Oct 04, 2009, 09:05 AM
@Ralph - are you available to play the next turnset?

@oz & @mighty - let us know when you become available again, as we are getting a little short of players!!!

Roster:
Ozbenno - Unavailable
IanW - On Deck
mc-red
mighty– Unavailable
McArine - Just Played
Ralph - Up Next
Edzako – Missing in Action

Ozbenno
Oct 04, 2009, 03:27 PM
I'm probably right to play when needed. If we don't hear from Ralph soon I'll take it.

ianw1610
Oct 07, 2009, 06:38 AM
I'm probably right to play when needed. If we don't hear from Ralph soon I'll take it.


@Oz - do you want to take it now? @Ralph hasn't posted to this page for a month, and hasn't logged into his account for 11 days... 4 other teams have now played more turns than us...

Ozbenno
Oct 07, 2009, 03:07 PM
OK, I'll take it but won't be until the weekend that I play. Might have time to post some thoughts tonight.

Ozbenno
Oct 10, 2009, 08:15 PM
I played until the settler popped out, he is on his way south. I put an observatory for Moscow but a knight might be more prudent.

Trade mission to London as discussed.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/411/civ4screenshot0000c.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0000c.jpg/)

Physics still aways away.

Barb galley on its way across. We should be OK but re-inforcements are all 1 turn away.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3806/civ4screenshot0001p.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0001p.jpg/)

We should think about getting back into slavery as we are unhappy and unhealthy across most cities.

ianw1610
Oct 11, 2009, 02:46 AM
C'est moi...

I'll probably play in 2-4 days from now, so any thoughts welcome.

Here are my first notes:

- I'm tempted to settle on top of the southern Fur, in order that we can immediately work the Iron on the island (and probably the Fish also), to accelerate Library and University.

- Move all workers down to that area, to chop forests.

- Put a Market and/or Grocer in Moscow, so we can still run Merchants when not in Caste System.

- Revolt to Hereditary Rule and Slavery (after we have expanded the borders of our new city with Artists).

- Trade Fish to Gandhi for Sugar.

- Ask Churchill and Gandhi to switch to Free Market, to improve our trade route yield (they should both spare it for a good friend).

- Improve our military presence SIGNIFICANTLY (helped by whipping).

- Expect 2 x CR3 Barb Macemen to come from that Galley, and defend as best we can.

- Beware of Mao !!!

PS - @oz - I FINALLY got time to play some more HoF games, and managed to take that #7 QM spot from you!! I would have taken #6 as well had I not had an accidental Cultural win, when well set for a big Space Colony win !!!

Ozbenno
Oct 11, 2009, 05:27 AM
PS - @oz - I FINALLY got time to play some more HoF games, and managed to take that #7 QM spot from you!! I would have taken #6 as well had I not had an accidental Cultural win, when well set for a big Space Colony win !!!

Noticed that and it has inspired me to play some games again in the next 2 weeks to try and get it back.

ianw1610
Oct 13, 2009, 02:17 AM
C'est moi...

I'll probably play in 2-4 days from now, so any thoughts welcome.

Here are my first notes:

- I'm tempted to settle on top of the southern Fur, in order that we can immediately work the Iron on the island (and probably the Fish also), to accelerate Library and University.

- Move all workers down to that area, to chop forests.

- Put a Market and/or Grocer in Moscow, so we can still run Merchants when not in Caste System.

- Revolt to Hereditary Rule and Slavery (after we have expanded the borders of our new city with Artists).

- Trade Fish to Gandhi for Sugar.

- Ask Churchill and Gandhi to switch to Free Market, to improve our trade route yield (they should both spare it for a good friend).

- Improve our military presence SIGNIFICANTLY (helped by whipping).

- Expect 2 x CR3 Barb Macemen to come from that Galley, and defend as best we can.

- Beware of Mao !!!

PS - @oz - I FINALLY got time to play some more HoF games, and managed to take that #7 QM spot from you!! I would have taken #6 as well had I not had an accidental Cultural win, when well set for a big Space Colony win !!!

Any comments at all?!! Is there anyone out there?!?!!

mc-red
Oct 13, 2009, 03:17 AM
Ianw, I'm still here and reading all posts. I'm ok with all of your suggestions.
I haven't been posting much as I get the feeling that no one is really reading the posts.
I guess the team is going through a civ exhaustion phase.

I appreciate how you make the effort to keep things on track. Its a challenging game given we can't fight our way out of the situation till nukes.
I think we really need to find a way to get constitution to max our scientists and merchants and then Communism will help.
For now getting the best possible tech rate to physics is all we can do and take it from there.

Ozbenno
Oct 13, 2009, 05:20 AM
Sounds good to me. I don't have much time spare to devote to this but I'm still trying to follow as best I can.

I would try and get some knights out for fast reaction defence. We're not currently in slavery so would have to revolt for whipping.

ianw1610
Oct 13, 2009, 01:54 PM
Ok then, lets Rock ‘n’ Roll...

(in truth, it was quite a dull turnset!!)

First, I persuaded Gandhi and Churchill to switch to Free Market, to improve our own trade routes.

Also, I took a Sugar for Fish deal from Gandhi...

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5494/ianw1610t386n.jpg

The Barb landing party consisted of a Maceman and a Longbowman... we lost a Maceman defending, but other than that, no problems.

I tried to enable the Heroic Epic, so I sent a Knight across to Barb Island to pick off some weak units. Sadly, when he was just 1XP shy of the elusive Level 4 (and already badly wounded), he got killed by... of all things... a Barb WARRIOR !!!!!!

Anyway, our new 5th City was founded. I’ve already chopped a Library – now it needs a University.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/4151/ianw1610t389.jpg

I revolted to Hereditary Rule and Slavery. HR has really improved Happiness. I’ve used Slavery to whip out a few units.

I completed research of Physics.

So...... has Gyathaar been kind to us, and given us Uranium???

???

???

???

???

...of course he has!! Just 1 tile South of our Capital !!

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6311/ianw1610t398.jpg

Looking around the World, Gandhi, Mao and De Gaulle all have Uranium close to their Capitals. Roosevelt has it, on an island which he has settled. Churchill appears to have no Uranium at present, although if the borders of one of his cities (Coventry) was to expand, it could pick up Uranium for him, albeit from the edge of the French island.

Obviously we need Fission before we can make any use of the Uranium! And Rocketry before we can dream of Nuclear Weapons!!

Lastly, De Gaulle is now Cautious with us, and offered Open Borders (which I accepted). He even agreed to the following trade, so we now have Replaceable Parts:

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6323/ianw1610t399.jpg

Notes for the next player (which is @mc-red, I believe...)

- Try to whip the last University ASAP, and then switch St Pete’s to Oxford Uni, which of course can be whipped as well.

- We are short of Observatories at the moment, so may want to build a few, to speed up Research.

- Also, if our Army is strong enough, we may want to consider “Building Research”, as it is still a long road before we get to Fission and Rocketry.

- We got 2 Great People at the end of my turnset. A Scientist for being first to Physics, and a Merchant from Moscow. The Scientist can bulb most of Chemistry, or create another Academy. The Merchant can bulb some of Constitution, or run another Trade Mission. Either of them can start a Golden Age (which would use up just one of them as it would be our first Golden Age). So, we need to decide what is best.

- Also, we need to decide our Research path. I’ve picked Electricity, as it is our only remaining pre-requisite for Fission. Although, we also have to think about the path to Rocketry, to enable Nukes, as well as Rifling, to improve defence, and Constitution, to improve our economy.

- Finally, we need to decide if 5 cities is enough for us, or if we want to settle some of the more distant land-masses.


Here is your Session Turn Log from 1752 AD to 1778 AD:

Turn 386, 1752 AD: Gandhi adopts Free Market!
Turn 386, 1752 AD: Churchill adopts Free Market!
Turn 386, 1752 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!

Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) (4.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (1.72)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 27 (45/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 27 (18/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Maceman (9.60) vs Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow) (12.80)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Combat Odds: 21.9%
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Maceman has defeated Stalin's Maceman 12 (Moscow)!
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman (7.20) vs Stalin's Knight (10.00)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Combat Odds: 12.5%
Turn 387, 1754 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Stalin's Knight has defeated Barbarian's Longbowman!

Turn 388, 1756 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Maceman (5.18)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Combat Odds: 87.9%
Turn 388, 1756 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (36/100HP)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (18/100HP)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 388, 1756 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!

Turn 389, 1758 AD: Yekaterinburg has been founded.
Turn 389, 1758 AD: Buddhism has spread in Yaroslavl'.

Turn 390, 1760 AD: Cai Lun (Great Engineer) has been born in Orleans (De Gaulle)!

Turn 391, 1762 AD: The borders of Yekaterinburg have expanded!
Turn 391, 1762 AD: De Gaulle has completed Versailles!
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Maceman (9.60) vs Stalin's Knight (10.00)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Combat Odds: 35.3%
Turn 391, 1762 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Stalin's Knight (2.40)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Combat Odds: 56.9%
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 11 (13/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Stalin's Knight (1.30)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Combat Odds: 91.8%
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 12 (1/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 12 (0/100HP)
Turn 391, 1762 AD: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Stalin's Knight!

Turn 392, 1764 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 392, 1764 AD: Stalin adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 392, 1764 AD: Stalin adopts Slavery!
Turn 392, 1764 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 393, 1766 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.49)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 393, 1766 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (34/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 395, 1770 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Theocracy!

Turn 396, 1772 AD: Gandhi adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 397, 1774 AD: Moscow will become healthy on the next turn.
Turn 397, 1774 AD: St. Petersburg can hurry Longbowman for 1? with 28? overflow and +1? for 28 turns.
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Novgorod can hurry Maceman for 2? with 36? overflow and +1? for 26 turns.
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Michael Faraday (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Stalin)!
Turn 397, 1774 AD: You have discovered Physics!
Turn 397, 1774 AD: You have discovered a source of Uranium near Moscow!
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Adam Smith (Great Merchant) has been born in Moscow (Stalin)!

Turn 398, 1776 AD: Moscow has become healthy.
Turn 398, 1776 AD: De Gaulle will trade Replaceable Parts
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Will Sign Open Borders: De Gaulle
Turn 398, 1776 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!
Turn 398, 1776 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 11 on the next turn.
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Yekaterinburg will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 9 on the next turn.

Turn 399, 1778 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 11.
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 3.

mc-red
Oct 13, 2009, 03:17 PM
Nice turns. Loosing a 9xp knight to a barb warrior seems to be inline with what the SGOTM gods have ordained for us.
I'll try to post some thoughts tomorrow night and keep things moving by playing Thursday.

Ozbenno
Oct 13, 2009, 04:49 PM
The GS would be good for bulbing at this stage rather than academy (is Chemistry out there somehwere as a trade?), not sure about the GM, we probably could keep a Golden Age up our sleeves but Constitution would be a good pick up as Representation would be handy. Building research is probably good once we have sufficient defenses up.

ianw1610
Oct 14, 2009, 02:26 AM
Nice turns. Loosing a 9xp knight to a barb warrior seems to be inline with what the SGOTM gods have ordained for us.
I'll try to post some thoughts tomorrow night and keep things moving by playing Thursday.

Our Knight was already massively wounded, and despite being in a forest, the attacking Warrior still had something like 91% odds in his favour.

I think we have a Crossbowman sitting in St Petes who needs just 3 more XP to reach Level 4, so maybe we could take him on a Mystery tour of Barb territory...


The GS would be good for bulbing at this stage rather than academy (is Chemistry out there somehwere as a trade?), not sure about the GM, we probably could keep a Golden Age up our sleeves but Constitution would be a good pick up as Representation would be handy. Building research is probably good once we have sufficient defenses up.

If I remember, the Scientist can bulb something like 90% of Chemistry, but the Merchant can only bulb maybe 30% of Constitution (need to check the save for exact %'s).

We could get Chemistry and Constitution from trades, in the longer term (i.e. not right now). Maybe we could save the Scientist to bulb some of Fission, later in the game, and sleep the Merchant for now, to use him later for either a Trade Mission or Golden Age......???

Ozbenno
Oct 14, 2009, 04:33 AM
After Chemistry the GS will bulb some of Electricity which might help us on the way or keep for Fission.

ianw1610
Oct 14, 2009, 07:55 AM
After Chemistry the GS will bulb some of Electricity which might help us on the way or keep for Fission.

I think we need both Chemistry and Biology before we can bulb some of Electricity. The Scientist will contribute around 25% of the beakers to Electricity.

Presumably none of the Corporations would be of any use to us??

McArine
Oct 14, 2009, 09:35 AM
I think I would save the GM for a later trade mission or GA, and use the Scientist for bulbing.

I would try to run 100% research for as long as possible, as we have very few gold buildings atm.

GOTM server seems to be down, so I can't load the save atm. to have a look.

ianw1610
Oct 14, 2009, 10:02 AM
Yes, I think the server is down for some time today, according to the following post:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/announcement.php?f=196&a=567

I agree we should use the Scientist for bulbing, I just wouldn't specifically bulb Chemistry or Biology, due to the likelihood of getting them in a trade. I'd save it for Electricity or Fission.


Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
(...and then the list goes on...)

mc-red
Oct 14, 2009, 05:00 PM
Send explorer to Mao to check him out.

Agree with McArine merchant goes to sleep for Trade Mission or GA.

Moscow:
Finish knight->harbour->observatory
Harbour will add about 6.75 :commerce: or 10 :science: at 100% slider for half cost of
observatory which adds 11 :science:. We will need the health benefits down the road as well.

New City:
Growth in 10 so a two pop whip is 10 turns away. Can cut growth to 5
turns by working coast instead of the 3 :hammers: mine.
It will then take two turns to finish the university for a 3 turn saving.
The above assumes that a two pop whip with forge will be 112 :hammers:
Does any one know if this is true ??? or do we just get 90 :hammers:

Academy or Bulb?
Just to play devils advocate I think we should at least consider an
academy in Moscow.
I see us running bureaucracy all the way. Academy will add 22 bpt right
away and 25 bpt after harbour.

I don't think we should bulb Chemistry as it is very likely to be
available through trade. I don't think bio will be available in the
next 20 turns as I explain later.

In that time we can get about 500 :science: from the academy. After
twenty turns we should be looking at 30 bpt from academy so a
1500 :science: bulb will be paid of in about 35 turns after taking
account the 500 :science: already yielded by the academy.

If we can't trade for biology in 20 turns the situation favours
academy even more.

Trades
1. Fish to De Gaulle for 5 bpt
2. Map to Mao for 115 and everyone else for 25 :gold: plus DeGaulle's
map


Espionage
Not much here - keep focusing on Mao.


Interesting Points
Roosy will declare on Mao for lib & physics

No stone available for trade to speed up the Oxford University build.

Churchill will declare on De Gaulle for Lib & Nationalism

Ghandi, Mao, De Gaulle all mobilizing for war and this may effect
their choice of techs. e.g Ghandi getting M.T. before constitution.
De Gaulle though went for the obvious choice for him RP although now I
think he goes rifling or to lesser extent M.T.


Possible Tech choices by the AI's

Churchill choices probably look like this in order of probability
MS > Steel >> RP >> Nationalism, Sci. Meth., Lib.

De Gaulle if going military Rifle > MT > Physics, Chem
If teching normally I think will prefer Econ, Constitution > chem, phyics

Mao probably looking at a military tech or constitution /chemistry (EDIT: chemistry could well be a high priority if naval buildup is part of his warplan)

Roosy probably goes RP or Constitution to a lesser degree.

Chemistry, Constitution, Biology and Communism Trades
When Biology becomes available the most likely to go for it is Mao >
De Gaulle > Ghandi all three are in mobilization so this maybe some
time off.
Ghandi would probably strongly consider communism for his tech unless he has gone military. Mao and De Gaulle also likely to research this at a fairly high priority in the future.

I think it is likely that we can trade for constitution and chemistry and later for communism. Biology may take a long time to be available from a willing trade partner.
This makes the electricty bulb a long shot.

Trading Blocks
Either DeGaulle or Mao are going for us or they go for Churchill/Roosy. If the former happens we will not be getting techs from them and if the latter happens and we refuse to join in then they will be unlikely tech trading partners.


Worker Turns
As we are no longer in caste and whipping for hammers maybe Moscow replaces workshops with farms till we get to Communism.

ianw1610
Oct 15, 2009, 07:20 AM
@mc-red - very good analysis, thanks.

I'm with you on the Moscow Academy. I don't think I've ever played a Civ-IV game where I haven't had an Academy in my capital. As no plausible bulbs exist, I'd go for an Academy now. We are likely to get another Scientist later in the game, so can evaluate bulbing options then.

Happiness should be good for now, helped by Hereditary Rule. As for Health, maybe it would be a good idea to put a Harbour and a Grocer into every city... not only to improve health, but also to increase our commerce. By the way, someone has been poisoning our water lately (Moscow and St Pete's have both been hit, so we may have some temporary unhealthiness - not sure who did it).

I'm tempted not to ever trade Physics away, because it is a key step on the road to the nuclear age, so if we can keep our rivals backwards in comparison, that can only be a good thing!

Ozbenno
Oct 15, 2009, 04:05 PM
Can't disagree with your reasoning on Academy (assuming your calcs are right ;)), IIRC we had merchants employed in Moscow, if we go for an Academy there, they should be swapped to scientists, to give more bang for the buck.

mc-red
Oct 15, 2009, 05:26 PM
Ok guys thanx for feedback. I'll play tomorrow as I ended up watching TV tonight.

mc-red
Oct 17, 2009, 05:45 AM
- T1 made the trades for maps and fish, moved worker to mine uranium gets us another
3 commerce to help improve return from academy. Explorer dropped
off in China.
Founded the moscow academy and decided to fire the two merchants in Moscow to get
growth from 26 turns to 8 turns. Noticed that if I worked the
coast instead of a workshop beaker output went from 102.?? to
107.?? and growth to 6 but the knight build took a turn longer. I
decided to take this configuration to maximize returns from the academy.
- T2 Ghandi sends a force :rolleyes: through our waters probably
en route to Mao.
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7776/civ4screenshot0014.jpg
We start taking note of Mao's forces trebs,
musckets and some Choku's no navy as yet.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/914/civ4screenshot0015.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3769/civ4screenshot0018k.jpg
We reject Mao.
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/976/civ4screenshot0013p.jpg

- Beginning of T3 checked in with everyone no change with trade
picture. Our furs are online and can only get 1 GPT for them I
take it anyway from Roosy. Beg him for 40 gold which he coughs
up. We can relook at the trade in 10 turns. Got another 50 from
Ghandi for a peace treaty. This I think makes it impossible for
Mao to ask us to join war with Ghandi if one breaks out.
- T4 fire scientists in Moscow for three turns to get growth one
turn earlier then I will hire them back. Lose only .4 BPT.
- T5
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/104/civ4screenshot0017v.jpg
Ghandi, Roosy, Churchill all declare on Mao. I don't know if
we should join in if asked or just reject requests.
Also, barb
galley appears and I wonder if I should let it land and get XP or
just sink it right here? Before I continue do we get into phony
war with Mao?
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6808/civ4screenshot0019.jpg

mc-red
Oct 17, 2009, 02:35 PM
I'll finish tomorrow. I really don't know about this Mao situation. I would hate to lose the ability to trade with the Rosy-Ghandi-Churchill block but at the same time don't want to mess up our pretty tech lead and upset De Gaulle unnecessarily.
:shrug:

Ozbenno
Oct 17, 2009, 03:06 PM
I wouldn't get into a phony war with a neighbour who could probably destroy us if he didn't realise it was a phony war!! I say we sit this one out. :mischief:

ianw1610
Oct 17, 2009, 03:54 PM
I'd reject a request for war... maybe accept a request to stop trading.

For the Barbs, I'd simply kill their Galley!!

PS - I'd also NOT throw a beach-ball onto a football pitch, in front of my own beloved Goalkeeper......

mc-red
Oct 17, 2009, 05:02 PM
Ok, I'll finish this off.
WTF with the beach ball :mad: but we didn't deserve much out of that game tbh.

mc-red
Oct 18, 2009, 10:48 AM
Churchill back in Mercantilism :mad:

Next Player:
Probably move worker team from Moscow when riverside farm complete to chop a forest in St Petes. once forest chopped should be able to do a big whip of the oxford university.

The barbs didn't take the bait on the island. I think we should leave the units there as we don't want our silver or iron pillaged but you might decide to just send them back.

Moscow will grow next turn. Just manually check if you want to slow growth down by hiring back a merchant. We will hire a scientist when Observatory is complete so my plan was to get that complete first by working a workshop.

Have to figure out how to get these AI's back out of Mercantilism. Churchill just changed

edit: Ghandi once again with a more unit/military tech than with constitution. The hope is that Rosy goes for constitution as we really need rep. soon

The story in pictures:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7776/civ4screenshot0014.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/914/civ4screenshot0015.jpg
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The story in words



Here is your Session Turn Log from 1778 AD to 1796 AD:

Turn 399, 1778 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Airship.
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Gottfried Leibniz (Great Scientist) has been born in Washington (Roosevelt)!

Turn 401, 1782 AD: You have trained a Crossbowman in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 401, 1782 AD: Gandhi has declared war on Mao Zedong!
Turn 401, 1782 AD: Churchill has declared war on Mao Zedong!
Turn 401, 1782 AD: Roosevelt has declared war on Mao Zedong!

Turn 402, 1784 AD: Stalin's Galleon (4.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: Combat Odds: 96.2%
Turn 402, 1784 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: Stalin's Galleon is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 402, 1784 AD: Stalin's Galleon has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 403, 1786 AD: Bi Sheng (Great Engineer) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!

Turn 404, 1788 AD: You have trained a Knight in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Chinook (Barbarian) has been captured by the French Empire!!!
Turn 404, 1788 AD: De Gaulle adopts Nationhood!

Turn 405, 1790 AD: You have constructed a University in Yekaterinburg. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Oliver Cromwell (Great General) has been born in Hastings (Churchill)!
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Pachacuti (Great General) has been born in Beijing (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 406, 1792 AD: Churchill has 120 gold available for trade.
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Gandhi has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 406, 1792 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' are about to expand.
Turn 406, 1792 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' have expanded!
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Churchill adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 407, 1794 AD: Yaroslavl' will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Churchill has 260 gold available for trade.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Roosevelt has 110 gold available for trade.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Churchill has 6 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: You have discovered Chemistry!
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Novgorod will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Yekaterinburg will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 10 on the next turn.

Turn 408, 1796 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 7.
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 3.
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 10.
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Yaroslavl' has become unhealthy.
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Gandhi has 160 gold available for trade.
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Moscow will grow to size 13 on the next turn.

ianw1610
Oct 18, 2009, 02:56 PM
Removing the unavailable players (who are more than welcome to add themselves back in, when ready), this is our 4-man roster, with McArine up next...

Roster:
Ozbenno
IanW
mc-red - Just Played
McArine - Up Next

Gandhi should switch to Free Market via the "could you spare this for a good friend" route. Churchill may ask for a small donation of gold to change to Free Market. As Churchill had a Civic change on turn 406, we will need to wait for Turn 411 to ask him.

De Gaulle will give us 2 gold for our spare Fur, if it is any use.

Also De Gaulle has enough on his hands, but is not at war.

Did we decide against settling any distant islands???

Ozbenno
Oct 18, 2009, 03:32 PM
We may need that island off our east coast if that is our only source of oil, otherwise not sure we need any other island cities

McArine
Oct 20, 2009, 10:27 AM
I can play friday.

Here are my thoughts:
Yaroslavl: Finish Harbour -> Observatory or Customs House, depending on income, with foreign trade routes.
Moscow: Finish Harbour and Observatory -> Knight.
St. Petersburg: Continue Oxford.
Novgorod: Finish Harbour -> Knight.
Yekaterinburg: Continue Harbour.

Will try to get Gandhi into Free Market.
Also Churchill when he's able to.
And trade with De Gaulle.

If asked to join the war, I'll decline.

If Electricity comes in, I'll continue to Fission, in hopes that we can trade for Steel and Rifling.

We have access to oil, off the east coast. So it wont be accessible before plastics.

Workers continue building improvements.

ianw1610
Oct 21, 2009, 03:38 AM
When we get Rifling / Military Tradition, do we intend to immediately upgrade our Melee / Archery units to Riflemen, and our Knights to Cossacks?? (to hopefully increase Power and dissuade others from DoWing us)???

mc-red
Oct 21, 2009, 03:43 AM
^^ (edited as Ianw was posting at same time :D)
I think you are right about continuing the beeline as long as our relations with the Churchill/Ghandi/Roosy remain good I thnk we should be able to get steel for sure and hopefully rifling.
The problem seems to be none of the Ai's seem to want to go the constitution->Democracy route.
Constitution would be a nice to have tech.

On another note I wonder if DeGaulle is waiting for rifling and an upgrade to make his move.
Nothing much we can do here.

Question for everone if we bribe Churchill to Free Market and subsequently De Gaulle declares on him. Will he switch back to Mercantilism like he did when he DOW'd Mao?
If so do we wait for DeGaulle to play his hand before bribing Churchill to switch?:confused:

mc-red
Oct 21, 2009, 08:31 AM
Ianw I don't have the save so don't know when we get another GP. Maybe we need to burn the Merchant on a trade mission when we get those techs to do the upgrades.
We don't want to use the current cash as deficit research is the only way to really get value on Oxford/uni/observatory investment we are currently making.

McArine
Oct 24, 2009, 02:13 AM
Not much happening, just followed the plan.

Traded with De Gaulle, Furs for 2 gold.
Ghandi wants 160 gold for switching to free market, I see if we can get it cheaper next turn.

T1: Ghandi now wants 165 gold, I agree, and it cuts 2 turns of electricity.

T3: Decided on Observatory in Yaroslavl.

T5: Churchill takes 130 gold for free market, cutting another turn of electricity.

T9: Knight finishes in Moscow, I start a Customs House for +6 gold.

T10: Electricity comes in, continue to fission(18 turns).

Rosewelt and Ghandi has Constitution for trade, De Gaulle has rifling, but wont trade.
A GS is next, in 20 turns.

mc-red
Oct 24, 2009, 02:47 AM
Great news on pretty much all fronts.

mc-red
Oct 24, 2009, 02:58 AM
The current phase of Ox/observatories/CH/Harbors will soon be over.
St Pete's is 20 turns from a GP so that should get us fission completed via a bulb.
I guess we need to figure out how much of fission to self research.
I was wondering if we want to go theatres/globe/hermitage somewhere to fight ghandi's culture for the next phase.
Or do we try to go consitution trade and then look for jails for espionage

ianw1610
Oct 24, 2009, 04:50 AM
@ozbenno to play next

We only have ~6 weeks before the submission deadline, so I guess we need to hurry along somewhat!

The cash from our last Trade Mission is exhausted. Do we want to sent our Merchant from Moscow on another Trade Mission to London right now?

Constitution would come in useful - we should trade with Roosevelt, not Gandhi (as Gandhi is too advanced). As part of the trade with Roosevelt, he should also agree to move into Free Religion (if that would be of any help, diplomacy-wise). Then we presumably revolt to Representation right away...

I quite like the idea of putting a Market and Grocer in each city... that would contribute 50% more gold, as well as 2 happy and 2 healthy. Jails would be good also, as we have a war or five still to fight!

Also, I'd put a Bank in each city, looking for Wall Street to go to St Petes when Corporation comes in. And a Theatre in each city, looking to put the Globe in Yaroslavl. I'd put either the National Epic or the National Park into Yaroslavl also.

We can whip Oxford right away if we want, which may be a good idea as we are at the Health limit for St Petes already... although it will cost 5 population...

Still no level-4 unit, so no Heroic Epic. When it becomes available, we will put it in Moscow. When we get Steel, we can put the Ironworks in Moscow (and hope Steam Power reveals a source of Coal).

Looking at ICBMs - they cost 675 hammers, and so far, given the 1 missile per city rule, we need to build 41 of them (plus more for new cities), so that is at least 28,000 hammers of investment (less the missiles for closer cities, as cheaper Tactical Nukes will suffice). Our most hammer-rich city is churning out just 29 hammers per turn at present, so we are on a long long road......

Ozbenno
Oct 24, 2009, 03:09 PM
Got it, will be able to play tomorrow probably.

I wouldn't worry about culture buildings for Gandhi, he can be target #1! Money buildings seems a good idea (as would hammer multipliers).

mc-red
Oct 25, 2009, 09:05 AM
@ianw we are definately going to be hammer limited in this game.
We will need to use tactical nukes more than ICBM's as they are cheaper at least to begin with.
Also, we wont' get much from captured citgies as fall out will be a problem till ecology.

Ozbenno
Oct 26, 2009, 07:07 PM
I'm really struggling to find the time at the moment to play this, probably best to skip me this time around.

ianw1610
Oct 27, 2009, 07:35 AM
No problem, I can take it on.

Available to play the turnset any time, but would like some advice first, on whether or not to run a Trade Mission with our current Great Merchant...

ianw1610
Oct 28, 2009, 11:13 AM
I'll probably look to play later this evening.

I think a Trade Mission would help us while we are still in the process of hooking up Banks / Markets / Grocers, so if I don't hear anything in the meantime, I'll start my turnset with another Trade Mission to London... Let me know in the next few hours if you want me to save the Merchant!!

mc-red
Oct 28, 2009, 11:33 AM
We need to keep up our research so go for it.
We will have to get cash for upgrades by running 0% slider with the gold multipliers set up later.

mc-red
Oct 28, 2009, 11:35 AM
BTW Ianw and everyone do you think the kremlin looks important for this game.
It will cost valuable hammers but if we end up rush buying nukes it is worth it.
The counter is that we are probably better of in Rep than in US but I guess when we reach rocketry that may change.

Ozbenno
Oct 28, 2009, 03:25 PM
It will cost valuable hammers but if we end up rush buying nukes it is worth it.


Can you rush buy military?

mc-red
Oct 28, 2009, 03:40 PM
Can you rush buy military?

yes.
I learnt the technique on these forums. If you are hammer poor but cottage spammed.
Get the 100% :gold: multipliers which are available long before the :hammers: multipliers.

Then drop slider to build cash while starting military builds in every city. Then rush buy them. With Kremlin it can be ridiculous sometimes with a decent number of cottage cities.

mc-red
Oct 28, 2009, 03:44 PM
Here's a forum game that uses the technique pretty impressively.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7979141&postcount=4

ianw1610
Oct 28, 2009, 06:40 PM
Ok, I played another set. No screenshots this time (nothing seemed significant enough).

Research – I stopped research of Fission on the last turn of the set, with ~2200 beakers remaining, meaning that our next Great Scientist (due in 8 turns) can bulb the rest.

I have switched research to Communism (8 turns) if we want the Kremlin. Also, the free Great Spy should still be available, which could give us a Golden Age, or enable us to steal a Technology. Although I haven’t yet invested any beakers, so this choice can be amended.

Buildings – I have been building Banks, Grocers and Markets. A lot of them have been whipped, so some city sizes have decreased, and our overall score has reduced, as a result. As soon as we complete the one last Bank and get Corporation, we can build Wall Street in St Petes right away.

Trading – just the one trade, as discussed, on the first turn of the set. Constitution from Roosevelt for Chemistry and Rep Parts. Roosevelt also switched to Free Religion as part of the deal. I revolted to Representation right away.

Possible Trades – Gandhi now has Physics. He is willing to trade us Corporation + Military Tradition, if we give him Electricity, but I’m a bit concerned about us helping him with a pre-requesite for Fission...

Wars – Mao has now made peace with Roosevelt, but is still at War with Churchill and Gandhi.

Level 4 Military Unit?? Nope!!! The Rostov Barbs wouldn’t attack our units, so I tried attacking them, but lost all 3 battles, despite us having reasonable combat odds in our in all 3 cases (50%, 30% & 20%).

Up next - @mc-red (again!!)



Here is your Session Turn Log from 1816 AD to 1843 AD:

Turn 418, 1816 AD: You have discovered Constitution!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Roosevelt adopts Free Religion!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin adopts Representation!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 419, 1818 AD: You have constructed a Customs House in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: You have constructed Oxford University in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: You have trained a Knight in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: You have constructed a Harbor in Yekaterinburg. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: You have constructed a Observatory in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: Sakae (Barbarian) has been captured by the French Empire!!!
Turn 419, 1818 AD: Gandhi adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 420, 1820 AD: Novgorod celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 420, 1820 AD: Roosevelt has made peace with Mao Zedong!

Turn 421, 1822 AD: You have constructed a Bank in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Novgorod celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Nain Singh (Great Engineer) has been born in New York (Roosevelt)!

Turn 422, 1824 AD: You have constructed a Bank in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Grocer.

Turn 423, 1826 AD: Charles Martel (Great General) has been born in Hastings (Churchill)!

Turn 424, 1828 AD: You have constructed a Bank in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Grocer.

Turn 425, 1830 AD: You have constructed a Grocer in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Market.

Turn 428, 1836 AD: The borders of Yekaterinburg have expanded!

Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Knight (11.00) vs Barbarian's Maceman (12.40)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Combat Odds: 30.8%
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Knight is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Maceman has defeated Stalin's Knight!
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Maceman (8.80) vs Barbarian's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Combat Odds: 23.7%
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Maceman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Maceman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Maceman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Maceman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Maceman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman has defeated Stalin's Maceman!
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Longbowman (7.29)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Combat Odds: 52.8%
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 16 (48/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman has defeated Stalin's Crossbowman!
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Hamilcar Barca (Great General) has been born in Shanghai (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) (4.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Combat Odds: 98.4%
Turn 430, 1840 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Galleon 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 431, 1841 AD: Gandhi will trade Military Tradition, Corporation

Turn 432, 1842 AD: St. Petersburg will become healthy on the next turn.
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Yaroslavl' can hurry Market for 2? with 18? overflow and +1? for 52 turns.
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Yekaterinburg will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Churchill adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 433, 1843 AD: St. Petersburg has become healthy.
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 7.
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 6.
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Gandhi adopts Free Market!

mc-red
Oct 29, 2009, 02:49 AM
ok this is a got it. Will take a look. Advice, thoughts welcome as usual.

ianw1610
Oct 29, 2009, 03:48 AM
I'd suggest we beware of De Gaulle. When I scouted his lands with our Explorer, he had loads of Rifles - he would cause us trouble if he DoW's us... and he has a lot on his hands... and one of his Spies kindly poisoned our water...

As you can tell by our increased bank balance, I ran another Trade Mission to London.

I didn't really make good use of our Airship in my turnset, but we can rebase and scout for cities / SoD's... maybe also weaken some Barbarians with it...

mc-red
Oct 29, 2009, 05:11 AM
Thanks Ianw. I have been worried about De Gaulle too as it seemed like his plan was to go rifling and upgrade which is now confirmed.
I can't imagine looking at our empire how we could survive a DOW from him and still compete.

Also, Ghandi's culture is going to take a number of our tiles by the end of my turnset and I don't think we have the hammers to fight a culture war on top of everything else.

Looks grim...

tech path communism->bulb fission->steel->rifling->artillery->rocketry ???

I think communism is important SP/Spy/option to build kremlin all seem worth it.

Electricity to ghandi means he builds broadway and might trade it around after that.
Broadway would be good capture though and if he builds it I don't think he trades it until it is complete.
His culture with Broadway will be unbearable though. :mad:

Maybe we hold off till we can get a pre-requisite to rocketry.
Or do take corporation so that we beeline assembly line for factories? I think not ;first war will have to be with tactical nukes on Ghandi.

Do we focus ep's on Ghandi now? or who do we steal from?

ianw1610
Oct 29, 2009, 07:33 AM
Great Spies are fine early in a game, when they can help to steal Philosophy / Machinery / etc. The problem at this stage of the game is that, even with the Great Spy EPs, it may not be enough to steal a major technology, so would require some turns at 100% on the Espionage slider.

Given the De Gaulle threat, would we want to put Rifling next in line (and then upgrade our units), before Communism??

I don't think Corporation and MilTrad are essential at this stage, so I'd hold off trading them from Gandhi.

One other point about our forthcoming wars - Roosevelt still has a UU to kick in, later in the game, so he would be a strong target (along with Gandhi) to eliminate as early as we can, before he gets his Navy Seals up and running...

mc-red
Oct 29, 2009, 05:25 PM
I played 7 turns so far. Killed a barb galley to get galleon up to 5 XP.
Took Ianw's hint and went rifling as it makes sense and its in now.
De Gaulle has about 4 galleons and is massing rifles in Bantu. Looking at map he has no open borders with Churchill and Ghandi so I don't think he can get to us without declaring on one of them.
Bantu staging area and galleons lead me to believe he will go after Ghandi but we should not count on it.
What should I research next. Maybe we just skip communism for now. It is quite possible Ghandi will get it next and we trade for it.
Also getting IW up and running maybe a better investment. GS comes next turn so fission should come in next turn.
Two questions then:
1. Should I go steel next?
2. Should Yaroslavl build NE or is it a waste of hammers?

ianw1610
Oct 30, 2009, 02:55 AM
Gandhi is De Gaulle's worst enemy. Indeed, De Gaulle asked me to stop trading with Gandhi during my turnset (hence the new -1 with De Gaulle, as I refused). Although, the way the random number generator works, we can't be 100% sure that Gandhi is his target for war!!

1. Yes, I'd research Steel - Artillery - Rocketry and hope to get Communism, Democracy and Steam Power from trades.

2. I don't think we would get a great return on investment from National Epic. I'd put Globe and National Park into Yaroslavl. If possible, put a Theatre to the front of the build queue in all 6 cities (except Yekaterinburg, which should complete the Bank first), then build the Globe ASAP.

Probably worthwhile upgrading all Longbows, Crossbows and Macemen to Riflemen. With all our Banks, Markets and Grocers, we should get some decent income from running 100% gold, to compensate for this cash outlay.

For Heroic Epic, is a Level 4 naval unit sufficient, or must it be a Level 4 land unit?? (I know we are quite some way from achieving either...)

The maintenance thread has a couple of interesting recent posts... a couple of our rival teams appear to have suffered mutinies from disillusioned individuals! If all that handbags stuff continues, we may stand a chance of not getting the wooden spoon!!!

mc-red
Oct 30, 2009, 03:03 AM
:lol: I'll check on those mutinies.

:goodjob: Thanks for the feedback I can always rely on you for the most efficient no nonsense next steps. The globe indeed is the way to go.

Definately can build HE with 10 xp naval unit. I have done it many times with caravels taking out barb galleys on islands or with privateers preying on AI caravels.:devil: