SGOTM 10 - Fifth Element [Archive] - Page 3 - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

BLubmuz

Sep 14, 2009, 04:53 AM

OK, played my first TS on this SG10, almost uneventful.

The save

and the log from the site: Here is your Session Turn Log from 1485 AD to 1535 AD:

Turn 317, 1485 AD: You have trained Islamic Missionary in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on Islamic Missionary.

Turn 321, 1505 AD: Novgorod has been founded.
Turn 321, 1505 AD: Islam has spread in Novgorod.
Turn 321, 1505 AD: Charles Darwin (Great Scientist) has been born in St. Petersburg (Stalin)!
Turn 321, 1505 AD: Sinan (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 322, 1510 AD: You have trained Islamic Missionary in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on Islamic Missionary.
Turn 322, 1510 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 322, 1510 AD: The Spiral Minaret has been built in a far away land!
Turn 322, 1510 AD: Zhang Qian (Great Merchant) has been born in Shanghai (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 324, 1520 AD: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.
Turn 324, 1520 AD: James Watt (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 325, 1525 AD: Angkor Wat has been built in a far away land!

Turn 326, 1530 AD: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

and the autolog: Turn 40/473 (1485 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:17:55]
100% Research: 39 per turn
0% Culture: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 25 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Islamic Missionary

Turn 41/473 (1490 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:21:14]
Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Gandhi (India) asks Stalin (Russia) to stop trading with Mao Zedong (China); Stalin REFUSES.
100% Research: 39 per turn
0% Culture: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 17 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 42/473 (1495 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:24:43]
0% Research: 6 per turn
0% Culture: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 24 per turn, 9 in the bank

Turn 43/473 (1500 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:26:07]
0% Research: 6 per turn
0% Culture: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 24 per turn, 33 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 44/473 (1505 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:27:20]
A Mine was built near Moscow
Novgorod founded
Novgorod begins: Courthouse (162 turns)
Islam has spread: Novgorod
100% Research: 56 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -13 per turn, 57 in the bank

After End Turn:
Charles Darwin (Great Scientist) born in St. Petersburg

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 45/473 (1510 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:30:15]
100% Research: 56 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -14 per turn, 44 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg grows to size 5
St. Petersburg finishes: Islamic Missionary
Novgorod's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 46/473 (1515 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:31:39]
100% Research: 56 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -15 per turn, 30 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 47/473 (1520 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:32:43]
0% Research: 8 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 32 per turn, 15 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 48/473 (1525 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:33:30]
Diplomacy (Tribute Demand): De Gaulle (France) demands that Stalin (Russia) gives World Map; Stalin AGREES.
A Pasture was built near St. Petersburg
Moscow begins: Caravel (4 turns)
0% Research: 6 per turn
0% Culture: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 30 per turn, 47 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 49/473 (1530 AD) [14-Sep-2009 12:37:31]
100% Research: 53 per turn
0% Culture: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -16 per turn, 77 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Caste System' to 'Slavery'and some screenies. Comments later.

BLubmuz

Sep 14, 2009, 06:29 AM

unclethrill

Sep 14, 2009, 10:49 AM

All,

Sorry for the abrupt drop off last night. I had a HD crash on my laptop while I was at work. I've got my daughter's computer while I try to recover mine (fingers crossed). I'll try to catch up on the posts at least over the next few hours and answer as much as I can.

unclethrill

Sep 14, 2009, 11:28 AM

Well I guess based on BLubz already going, all previous questions are moot. In response to GB/STW about my test save, I will post it if I can recover the HD. I hope it's is still there since I spent a lot of WB time on it (not very adept at WB BTW).

BLubmuz

Sep 14, 2009, 12:01 PM

UT, how many times should i repeat it?

Don't give Coke to your HD, it can't drink.

dammit

unclethrill

Sep 14, 2009, 12:03 PM

The highlights of my TS:
- first, i worked the unimproved gold in Moscow, to avoid to forget to MM. the result
was the same as working the rice, thanks to Bureau.

Workers:
- Not much to invent for the workers: sent both to mine the gold, then road.
- the first free roaded the GL where UT (i think) left a partially builded road, then to connect iron. This has saved 1 turn of the settler movement.

Yep that was me
I suggest to continue to road to the White city, it will take all next TS and more.

What is the reasoning for this? All resources are connected via the coast and the settler, LB and mission are already there. Wouldn't it be better use of those worker turns to improve or chop (another settler). It will be useful to move troops but my guess is that the white site is about the safest of all the locations right now.
- the other worker is farming the rice.
i suggest to finish, then road, then road the cows
Agreed

- chopped the forest near StPete and sent the missionary to the Green site.
- then moved to a forest NW, right out of BFC to chop.
- moved one to spend 1 turn on a FP farm, then moved to the cows, losing 1 turn, pastured, now roading.
I suggest to road 1NE of cows, to connect them to StPete and to arrive close to the horses.
Agreed

Buildings
Moscow is building a caravel, since i discovered a barb island E, from where a galley can arrive in the East Coast.
Thus, the caravel is patrolling that area, moving back and forth between the 1-tile-island and the barb island.
I suggest to continue (i know it's annoying) this movement.
I also suggest to complete the caravel, the LB and discuss if is better to start a settler for the Blue or a WB for the White.

Settler is my vote but I think we need to hold off on the blue spot. I think it will last a while. The red spot or the sugar island is a much better choice at this point IMHO. White can build a WB in 8 turns. One on the crabs (5F) and one on fish (6F) brings in 13f to grow with. Then it can build a lib (with chop) and maybe another WB after.

StPete is building its 3rd missionary, aided by the finally improved cows and by the incoming chop.
We'll debate if send him to Moscow or to Dehli and try to convert G.

I had to give Edu to G to convert him but he remained in the religion until I quit the test. Unless we are willing to really bribe him. It is better to send to Moscow to get the +50% and happy and then when we get a little closer to Lib we can build another mission, send him and sacrifice a tech to convert him

Novgorod (the Green city) has started a CH, but we can change to a library or a monastery. Or anything.
How much money do we save over what research increase can we get from a libr.? A bank in Moscow after a lib & uni will net us +8.5W IIRC so we also want to keep that in mind.

I left Mr. Charles Darwin in StPete, waiting to settle the White site to bulb PP, to gain some badly needed beakers.

If we hold him until we finish Lib (~T68) White can grow to size 6 or 7 and then the bulb might even get us all of PP. Right now it will get us all but 2 turns.

Research: i used the binary tecnique, not a great gain, but anything helps.
Still on Lib, greatly improved after the 2nd gold was mined.

DeGaulle asked for Wmap, i accepted, we have nothing to lose. Then i signed OB.

The white site can be settled in the very first turn next TS: there's the settler in position (no moves left), the LB and the missionary, all stacked.

Be sure to run a GA for 2 turns to pop those borders. This is paramount to turning away G's settler that he will place above the elephants. The pool pollution will be minimal but if he gets a city down there, it's borders will push both white and SP including taking all the ivory and one of the seafood.

The red site is even more appealing, with another silver in BFC and a whale in 2nd borders.
I posted also a screenie of the sugar island. There's even room for 2 cities, or one with only one sugar (but not much food) and great production.

I really like that spot for our next city. It has wealth, metal and food. It should be a decent city.

As you can see, the AI is wonder crazy: they always pop a GE (not Mao) and quickly build some wonder, useful or not.

A bit concerned from G adopting slavery. What's the point?

Slaving wonders?? Maybe we should think more about spreading the true faith to him?

Okay off to try and fix my 'puter!

unclethrill

Sep 14, 2009, 12:05 PM

UT, how many times should i repeat it?

Don't give Coke to your HD, it can't drink.

dammit

Should have tried Jolt! All the sugar, twice the caffeine!

BLubmuz

Sep 14, 2009, 05:02 PM

unclethrill

Sep 14, 2009, 05:10 PM

We also need PP to bulb RP with the GM from Econ

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 14, 2009, 08:35 PM

I suggest to continue to road to the White city, it will take all next TS and more.

What is the reasoning for this? All resources are connected via the coast and the settler, LB and mission are already there. Wouldn't it be better use of those worker turns to improve or chop (another settler). It will be useful to move troops but my guess is that the white site is about the safest of all the locations right now.

I agree with unclethrill. There is no point connecting the White City via Road when it will be (virtually already is) connected via Sailing.

A worker could be moved onto the GHF 1-E of the White Site to chop it. I would not Chop it as part of a Mine building though. Why wait more than 4t for the 55H of that Forest Chop? It can help build a Library.

Buildings
Moscow is building a caravel, since i discovered a barb island E, from where a galley can arrive in the East Coast.
Thus, the caravel is patrolling that area, moving back and forth between the 1-tile-island and the barb island.
I suggest to continue (i know it's annoying) this movement.
I also suggest to complete the caravel, the LB and discuss if is better to start a settler for the Blue or a WB for the White.

Settler is my vote but I think we need to hold off on the blue spot. I think it will last a while. The red spot or the sugar island is a much better choice at this point IMHO. White can build a WB in 8 turns. One on the crabs (5F) and one on fish (6F) brings in 13f to grow with. Then it can build a lib (with chop) and maybe another WB after.

I would have preferred 1 Work Boat built by Moscow prior to the now half built Caravel; it would be 2-3t from casting its Net on any of the Five Seafood right now.

Novgorod may have been a better City to build a Caravel, even though it would have required a Forest Chop to complete in a reasonable no. of turns.

I suggest that Moscow build a Work Boat now, complete the Caravel (Naval defense is good) and Longbowman (losing Hammers). Note that we are already paying a high unit maintenance that could be a bit lower.

Next build in Moscow should definitely be another Settler, but we also need growth, especially after the Rice Farm is completed. I suggest that Moscow build another 1-3 Work Boats (allows Moscow to grow too) as needed by the White City to maximize Growth in our future Major Great Scientist Farm! Now that we have delayed its founding so long, we really need it to grow extremely fast!

StPete is building its 3rd missionary, aided by the finally improved cows and by the incoming chop.
We'll debate if send him to Moscow or to Dehli and try to convert G.

I had to give Edu to G to convert him but he remained in the religion until I quit the test. Unless we are willing to really bribe him. It is better to send to Moscow to get the +50% and happy and then when we get a little closer to Lib we can build another mission, send him and sacrifice a tech to convert him

Finish the Library and start the University. We need to use the remaining 6 Forests in St. Petersburg wisely. We can Chop more Missionaries here as needed, but maybe Novgorod should build a Monastery and take over that task.

Novgorod (the Green city) has started a CH, but we can change to a library or a monastery. Or anything.

How much money do we save over what research increase can we get from a libr.? A bank in Moscow after a lib & uni will net us +8.5W IIRC so we also want to keep that in mind.

Right now, Novgorod could be building a Galley. After that a Monastery and Missionaries and the odd Naval unit too.

I left Mr. Charles Darwin in StPete, waiting to settle the White site to bulb PP, to gain some badly needed beakers.

If we hold him until we finish Lib (~T68) White can grow to size 6 or 7 and then the bulb might even get us all of PP. Right now it will get us all but 2 turns.

The Great Scientist is costing us 1 Wpt. The Great Scientist will provide an extra 5B per extra Population point. While White grows to 6P from 0P, Moscow should grow to 7P from 5P, St. Petersburg to 8P from 5P and Novagorod to 5P from 2P. That would be a total Population increase of 6+2+3+3=14. 14 * 5B = 70B which would definitely be about 2-3t of Printing Press. It is well worth doing, assuming it can be done soon!

The white site can be settled in the very first turn next TS: there's the settler in position (no moves left), the LB and the missionary, all stacked.

Be sure to run a GA for 2 turns to pop those borders. This is paramount to turning away G's settler that he will place above the elephants. The pool pollution will be minimal but if he gets a city down there, it's borders will push both white and SP including taking all the ivory and one of the seafood.

To reduce Great Artist pollution, run just 1 Artist (free specialist) and build Culture with Citizen on the GHF. That will net us 9 Cpt, including 1 Cpt for State Relgion. After 2t, we will have 18 Culture, 3 more than needed to Pop Borders.

The red site is even more appealing, with another silver in BFC and a whale in 2nd borders.
I posted also a screenie of the sugar island. There's even room for 2 cities, or one with only one sugar (but not much food) and great production.

I really like that spot for our next city. It has wealth, metal and food. It should be a decent city.

The Red City is a great next choice! Maybe another to further bottle up Gandhi, or perhaps its time to further our own growth?

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 14, 2009, 08:42 PM

I agree with unclethrill. There is no point connecting the White City via Road when it will be (virtually already is) connected via Sailing.

A worker could be moved onto the GHF 1-E of the White Site to chop it. I would not Chop it as part of a Mine building though. Why wait more than 4t for the 55H of that Forest Chop? It can build 1.375 Work Boats (40H).

I agree on the chop then mine.

I would have preferred 1 Work Boat built by Moscow prior to the now half built Caravel; it would be 2-3t from casting its Net on any of the Five Seafood right now.

Novgorod may have been a better City to build a Caravel, even though it would have required a Forest Chop to complete in a reasonable no. of turns.

I suggest that Moscow build a Work Boat now, complete the Caravel (Naval defense is good) and Longbowman (losing Hammers). Note that we are already paying a high unit maintenance that could be a bit lower.

Next build in Moscow should definitely be another Settler, but we also need growth, especially after the Rice Farm is completed. I suggest that Moscow build another 1-3 Work Boats (allows Moscow to grow too) as needed by the White City to maximize Growth in our future Major Great Scientist Farm! Now that we have delayed its founding so long, we really need it to grow extremely fast!

Finish the Library and start the University. We need to use the remaining 6 Forests in St. Petersburg wisely. We can Chop more Missionaries here as needed, but maybe Novgorod should build a Monastery and take over that task.

Right now, Novgorod could be building a Galley. After that a Monastery and Missionaries and the odd Naval unit too.

I think this is the best choice. A galley here and we can get the settler out of Moscow and settle red next.

The Great Scientist is costing us 1 Wpt. The Great Scientist will provide an extra 5B per extra Population point. While White grows to 6P from 0P, Moscow should grow to 7P from 5P, St. Petersburg to 8P from 5P and Novagorod to 5P from 2P. That would be a total Population increase of 6+2+3+3=14. 14 * 5B = 70B which would definitely be about 2-3t of Printing Press. It is well worth doing, assuming it can be done soon!

To reduce Great Artist pollution, run just 1 Artist (free specialist) and build Culture with Citizen on the GHF. That will net us 9 Cpt, including 1 Cpt for State Relgion. After 2t, we will have 18 Culture, 3 more than needed to Pop Borders.

Sun Tzu Wu

That's exactly what I'm saying, we just need to get the borders popped in 2 turns and then we not only force G's settler to go elsewhere but we also open up the second fishing resource.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 14, 2009, 08:52 PM

My last post was really long and took long to compose, but I didn't really say that much that was important.

Perhaps, we need a form listing all actions for the current turn set that we can all fill-in, leaving blank anything we don't have an opinion about. This may help reduce pointless discussion and help ensure that everything important is addressed. In particular, our City growth in turn sets #4 (mine) and #5 have been less than they could have been. Citizen assignment within each City is another weak area in my opinion.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 14, 2009, 09:09 PM

Great turn set, BLubmuz!

I'm especially impressed that you got the 4th Settler to the White Site by turn 50!

I agree that we should agree to any demand, except a Technology. Getting Open Borders with De Gaulle is really great! Well worth giving away our World Map.

Now we just need to improve Diplomacy with Churchill.

I won't mention all the other good moves ...

Sun Tzu Wu

P.S. I had this dream of spreading our State Religion around the World, including the Barbarian States, if that makes any sense. ;) OK, maybe Gandhi would suffice. :)

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 15, 2009, 12:14 AM

BLubmuz

Sep 15, 2009, 03:17 AM

I agree on most of your points, except the roads for the White: moving a worker there will lose 2 turns, which we can recover by roading. Otherwisw, that same worker will lose 2 more turns by moving back.

So i propose: once finished the road on Iron, road the first hill, move to the forested one, chop>mine>road, then on the hill north, mine>road or viceversa, then a workshop on the grassland, then finally a mine on the first hill.

We can also plan the actions (roads first or second) in function of the other worker tasks: once he's arrived on the hill to chop (the one outside BFC) we can plan roads if he can join the first in time to help. Then, both back to Moscow for some cottage and some workshop. But this will happen i 3 TS from now.

I think a galley in Novgorod is a good choice. I've put only a few hammers on the CH, i was focused on borders expansion. Then a Monastery, so it can provide for missionaries while StPete will develop some structures.

unclethrill

Sep 15, 2009, 12:28 PM

Gandhi settled his 3rd City exactly where you predicted, 3-S & 2-W of Delhi!

I'm impressed by the accuracy of your predictions!

No doubt, Gandhi's 4th Settler will head for the Desert Hill (3-N & 2-W of St. Petersburg) near the Ivory and will be repulsed by our 2nd Ring of Culture around our White City (after 2t of Culture building, one Artist and our State Religion), just a few turns from now.

Sun Tzu Wu

Thanks. When you run the same 10 turns 20 times you really tend to see patterns. The AI are about as far from AI as any video game is if you break it down to small groups.

BTW. looks like the HD is a total loss. Fortunately I have my Civ folder just copied on a portable HD (easiest way to do multiple wine/linux installs) so as soon as I buy a new HD I'm back in business.

GB. How long before you can update your save so that we can get back to testing again? I know after about the first 10 TS the tests aren't nearly as important but they can't hurt.

BLubmuz

Sep 15, 2009, 06:08 PM

Strange, GB posted he was improving the test game, then disappeared.

Not even Culdeus gave a sign.

If he doen't post a "got it" in 12 hours from now, i think UT has to grab the save.

We can't wait too much even if we went fast.

unclethrill

Sep 15, 2009, 07:03 PM

I'll checkin tomorrow evening after the kids are in bed (about 16 hours) if nothing from either GB or Cul then I will grab it and start a PPP. I should be back up on my puter by late afternoon tomorrow.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 15, 2009, 08:34 PM

Cities:

White Site - not yet built

t51-Seafood: 4:hammers:pt; Seafood-t60: 2:hammers:pt
1:commerce:pt -> 1:science:pt
t51-t52: 9:culture:pt; t53-t60: 1:culture:pt (State Religion)

Citizens: t51-t52: 1F2H, Art-4:culture:; t53-<until improved Seafood>: 1F2H, Sci-3:science:

Build: Culture: 4:culture:pt

Longbow 1: t51-t60: Fortify White City
I. Missionary 7: t51: Spread State Religion
Settler 8: t51: build White City

Moscow :)7/5 :health:6/6
5P 3t 29/40:food: +4:food:pt
14:hammers:pt x 1.75 = 24:hammers:pt
25:commerce: x 1.5 = 37:science:pt
29t 92/150:culture: 2:culture:pt

Citizens: 2F2H, 5F, 4F2H, 1F2H7C, 2H7C, Eng-2H

Build: Caravel 2t 48/81:hammers:
Queue: Longbowman 2t 35/67:hammers:

DEFAULT -> rename to Longbow 0
Longbow 0: t51-t60: Fortify Moscow
Worker 2: t51-t54: Farm Rice; t55-t57: Road Rice; t58-t60: 2-E, Road Cow
Worker 3: t51: 1-NW; t52-t54: Road; t55: 1-SW; t56-t60: Chop

There would be one of these for every City and planned City Site when a unit will enter that area for City founding, Religion spread or defense, etc.

Exploring Units:

Explorer: Move in clockwise arc past Horse, NE onto Tundra and Unrevealed; 6-S; head SW toward Roosevelt's Border; explore Roosevelt's Domain.
If blocked, return past Horse Tile and then Cow, reveal area East of Mao; continue South to reveal Roosevelt's Domain.

Caravel: Patrol between Fish at 1-S & 5-E of Moscow and 8-E of Novgorod for Barb Galleys.

Research: t51-t60: Research Liberalism

Diplomacy: Agree to all demands except for Technologies; OB for OB whenever possible; Sell World Map for 100:gold: or more.

Other ideas, tactics and strategies (brain storming):

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Sep 15, 2009, 09:22 PM

I finished the test save and got it played forward (somewhat accurately I hope) to just before Blubmuz's turn. (the 1460 save IIRC) One problem I had was I missed OB with Mao and he wouldn't agree after I signed with Washington. I edited the WB save (to get OB with Mao) and when I reloaded from WB it starts the turn numbering back at 0.

I have attached it below and an early save that could be replayed to get better accuracy with our actual turns.

Silly me I didn't even realize it was back to me. I can post a PPP tomorrow. Tonight was dedicated to emergency plumbing repairs.

greatbeyond

Sep 15, 2009, 09:24 PM

Here is the WB save from T32 and another game save. Tomorrow I can play through Blubmuz's turn.

Apparently the system won't accept WB saves so I named it like a regular BTS save. To make it work rename it:

SGOTM10 Test7 T32.CivBeyondSwordWBSave

The other saves are regular game saves.

I can guarantee the save in the previous post from T7 is accurate because it was my TS and I repeated everything exactly. Even the screwup.

So you've got your pick of saves to try.

BLubmuz

Sep 16, 2009, 01:56 AM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 16, 2009, 05:46 PM

GB, i'm not sure the effort to put together a WB save to fully reproduce the actual game is worth the time and energy at this point. First, 'cause it's impossible to actually fully reproduce our opponents moves, since it's even difficult to reproduce ours.

I agree that reproducing all moves from the beginning of the game is not necessary. We just need a save that matches the real Game state as close as possible at the end of Blubmuz's Turn Set (#5) t50. WB should be able to change anything in the test save to match what we can see in the Real game's current state. Anything that's hidden will just have to be left in the state it was in the original save the test is baded on.

We have no need for a so accurate test from now on. We'll settle our cities following our strategy and we'll take our decisions on the same way.

I disagree. It still has signifcant value; just not as much as the turn 0 or turn 10 tests.

I'd like to run a complete test to the Game's final turn just to see what lies ahead and so we can plan for it.

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Sep 16, 2009, 08:57 PM

I'll try and be thorough and factor in all the previous discussions.

Research:
Continue Lib until there is 1 T left (in my latest test with the current save, I was able to switch to Econ and get it. LB PP and RP, research and LB Astro and take Rifling from Lib) I'll have to go back and read STW's post on "Binary research"

Diplomacy:
Trade worldmaps as requested and to generate cash for research.
Deny any tech demands right now.
Deny any trade demands

Exploration:
Plagiarized from STW:
Explorer: Move in clockwise arc past Horse, NE onto Tundra and Unrevealed; 6-S; head SW toward Roosevelt's Border; explore Roosevelt's Domain.
If blocked, return past Horse Tile and then Cow, reveal area East of Mao; continue South to reveal Roosevelt's Domain.

Builds:
Novogrod - Galley, then Monastery
St Pete - Missionary 1T, Library 11T
Moscow - switch to WB 2T, Caravel 2T, Settler 13T OR WB 2T
White City - I favor a Library here OR WB
"To reduce Great Artist pollution, run just 1 Artist (free specialist) and build Culture with Citizen on the GHF. That will net us 9 Cpt, including 1 Cpt for State Relgion. After 2t, we will have 18 Culture, 3 more than needed to Pop Borders."

Workers

Worker1 (building road on St Pete's Cows) 2T, 1NE and Road 3T, 2SW and Road 3T, forest 1N2W of Novo

Worker2 (farming Moscow's Rice) 4T, Road Rice for extra health 3T, then 1SW and chop forest into the Settler

Worker 3 (on Iron) move to WGH 1E of White City, Chop forest into a Library. Then road

Worker4 (Chopping NW of SP) 2T, 1E2S and Farm FP so we can run more Scientists in SP

City Specialists

Moscow - 1 Engineer until it hits it's happy cap
St Pete - 2 Scientists until it hits it's happy cap OR time another GS to pop when Lib is down to 1T
Novogrod - 1 Engineer
White city - 1 Scientist and then gradually increase without killing growth

greatbeyond

Sep 16, 2009, 09:13 PM

The problem with creating a WB save to match the current conditions is you lose all production in the que for the current build, Worker actions are lost, and it resets the turn counter. I haven't fully explored what this means for such things as culture and research. As far as I know there isn't any way to set the percent completion for a city build in progress or a tech.

It takes a little more work to play forward, but if we keep it current with the TS it shouldn't be that bad. I guess if each of us took the test save (the one that I posted earlier that is from turn 7, and played our original turn it would be the most accurate. So far I haven't used WB to add in the world data from Blubmuz's turn.

Here's what looks like will happen from my latest test

Mao and Churchill will war, then Mao and Roosevelt.
G will emphasize culture. He may be content with 3 or 4 cities. He will put lots of pressure on St Pete.
Question: Can the AI win by culture even if we have to win by domination?

Roosevelt will take the tech path through GP, Corp, and get to SAM Infantry

Degaulle looks to have crappy lands and will struggle

I wonder if we should consider getting to Astro and spamming some Settlers on the choicest lands. If we can keep the AI limited in land area perhaps we can cripple them early on.

Also to consider, if we get Rifles before they even get GP, should we send a stack of 3 or 4 pillaging our biggest threat? I don't like war weariness but if it keeps the AI backward, it may be worth it.

unclethrill

Sep 16, 2009, 11:11 PM

unclethrill

Sep 17, 2009, 02:33 AM

Question: Can the AI win by culture even if we have to win by domination?

The way I understand the game is that all other win types are turned off. That means that the AI doesn't know that it can't win any other way so they will go for the other win types.

culdeus

Sep 17, 2009, 10:25 AM

Where is Culdeus?

Sorry. Got tied up for a few days in the evening. Haven't had a time to play any tests or anything and work got a little nuts. Perfect storm of sorts.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 17, 2009, 06:50 PM

Research:
Continue Lib until there is 1 T left (in my latest test with the current save, I was able to switch to Econ and get it. LB PP and RP, research and LB Astro and take Rifling from Lib) I'll have to go back and read STW's post on "Binary research"

This is definitely achievable by t70, if we focus on Research, make a few good trades, and grow the White City as fast as possible. (It would have been easier if the White City were built on t44; its Population would be 3 going on 4 now with 2 Work Boats from Moscow.)

We would need to trade World Map for as much Wealth as we can possible get from the AIs to run at 100% Research as much as possible.

When we have completed Printing Press, Economics, Replaceable Parts and have just 1t left of Liberalism, we trade for Gunpowder. It's impossible to loss Liberalism with 1t to go, since all AIs complete their turn after our turn. We simply take Rifling on the next turn for being 1st to Liberalism.

However, if it takes us significantly longer than t70, we will want a secondary target for being 1st to Liberalism. It would have to be Astronomy.

We have a realistic shot at getting Rifling from being 1st to Liberalism. We should at least consider this option.

Other things that need to happen: Maximize growth in all Cities till we hit the Cap in each, then run maximum Scientists in each. Build Libraries & Universities in all Cities, except possibly build a Galley in Novgorod and Settler in Moscow so we can settle the Red Site (Ice Island to our SE). We shouldn't necessarily risk the Red Site to possible settling by the Barbarians, even to Win Rifling from being 1st to Liberalism.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 17, 2009, 08:09 PM

Research:
Continue Lib until there is 1 T left (in my latest test with the current save, I was able to switch to Econ and get it. LB PP and RP, research and LB Astro and take Rifling from Lib) I'll have to go back and read STW's post on "Binary research"

I forgot to mention that right now (t50), two AIs have 30W and two AIs have 40W and Churchill has 70 Wealth to trade. Our World Map is well worth over 100 Wealth, and the AIs are building up their Wealth, so they may soon have enough wealth to pay for our World Map and we could possibly run 100% Research for the next 20+ turns. We should also shortly be able to double our Research output by doubling # of Scientists and building Libraries and Universities ...

Diplomacy:
Trade worldmaps as requested and to generate cash for research.
Deny any tech demands right now.
Deny any trade demands

I don't entirely agree with "Deny any trade demands". Perhaps, you meant demands to break diplomatic relations (stop trading with AI XXXX). On the other hand, we want to accept demands for Resources, since we will get a +1 Diplomacy for accepting such a demand. We could rewrite our Diplomacy plans tersely as:

Demands: Accept all demands except Technology and Stopping Trade with any AI.
Trades: We will trade WM for 100+ Wealth with any AI to keep Research at 100%.

Exploration:
Plagiarized from STW:
Explorer: Move in clockwise arc past Horse, NE onto Tundra and Unrevealed; 6-S; head SW toward Roosevelt's Border; explore Roosevelt's Domain.
If blocked, return past Horse Tile and then Cow, reveal area East of Mao; continue South to reveal Roosevelt's Domain.

May I add:

Caravel: Patrol between Fish at 1-S & 5-E of Moscow and 8-E of Novgorod for Barb Galleys.

Builds:
Novogrod - Galley, then Monastery
St Pete - Missionary 1T, Library 11T
Moscow - switch to WB 2T, Caravel 2T, Settler 13T OR WB 2T
White City - I favor a Library here OR WB
"To reduce Great Artist pollution, run just 1 Artist (free specialist) and build Culture with Citizen on the GHF. That will net us 9 Cpt, including 1 Cpt for State Relgion. After 2t, we will have 18 Culture, 3 more than needed to Pop Borders."

Unless there is something to build with a high priority, we should build Libraries and Universities to increase our Research. Thus, I would build as follows:

Novgorod: Galley, Library
St. Petersburg: Missionary 1t, Library xt (Forest Chop assisted)
Moscow: WB 2t, Caravel 2t, WB 2t, Settler
White City: Library

Workers

Worker1 (building road on St Pete's Cows) 2T, 1NE and Road 3T, 2SW and Road 3T, forest 1N2W of Novo

Worker2 (farming Moscow's Rice) 4T, Road Rice for extra health 3T, then 1SW and chop forest into the Settler

Worker 3 (on Iron) move to WGH 1E of White City, Chop forest into a Library. Then road

Worker4 (Chopping NW of SP) 2T, 1E2S and Farm FP so we can run more Scientists in SP

Agreed! Note that Forest Chop 2-SW of Moscow will go to St. Petersburg due to its overwhelming Culture on this Tile versus Moscow's.

May consider moving Worker 3 onto PH 1-NE of Rice after Rice Farm is completed and before building Road on Rice. We will gain 1P in Moscow in 3t and it would be nice to have the option of working a PH Mine (4H x 1.75 = 7H) in Moscow.

City Specialists

Moscow - 1 Engineer until it hits it's happy cap
St Pete - 2 Scientists until it hits it's happy cap OR time another GS to pop when Lib is down to 1T
Novogrod - 1 Engineer
White city - 1 Scientist and then gradually increase without killing growth

We should plan all City Citizens and not just Specialists.

Moscow: new citizen in 3t should work 5F to greatly increase growth (+9 Fpt in 3t). Could switch free specialist to Scientist (3B), since the Eng. contributes 2H x 1.75 = 3H (not a huge loss of Hammers); perhaps its best to stick with the Eng-3B just to build everything a bit faster; just looking for where we can increase Research.

St. P.: 3 Citizens on 3F1C; 3F3H; 2-Sci-3B; this increases growth to +4 Fpt.

Novgorod: 3F1C; 2F1H; Eng-2H; this increases growth to +3 Fpt; also maintains minimum of Base 4 Hpt so Forge yields an additional 1 Hpt.

White City: Work 6F Fish ASAP; this increases growth to +6 Fpt; we needed to build a Work Boat 3t ago in Moscow, so it could move it out on turn 50 and cast nets on Fish 3t turns later, right after the White city pops borders, but now we will get there 3t too late at best.

We should also predict when a City will increase its Population and where the new Citizen will be worked. I did this for Moscow in 3t, but when it hits +9 Fpt its going to increase in Population again or twice more this turn set (to 8P), if we increase the Happiness Cap. The 2nd new Moscow Citizen could work the PH Mine (if built) and the 3rd new Moscow Citizen could Work as Sci-3B. Other new Citizens should work 2+F Tiles until Population hits Happiness Cap, then maximize Scientists in White City, Novgorod and St. P. while keeping 1 Eng-2H in Novgorod.

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Sep 17, 2009, 08:17 PM

Any more comments about the PPP? I'll check back and play on Friday.

The path I described was by maximizing the birth of Great Scientists. 1 GS will give all but 1T of PP and 2T of RP. We would have to watch the the AIs techs to see when they get Education. As soon as they do we need to consider just finishing Lib. So far in the last three tests played forward from the end of Blubmuz's turn the AI seems to spend most of their time trying to expand and researches Nationalism first.

We could even try to get a GS for PP, a GM to hurry Econ, the free GM for RP, a GS for Astro, 2 GS for SM, and Rifling free, unless we can trade for GP and take Steel free.

I'll experiment some more tomorrow on the specialists and see if the AI remains consistent in the way they proceed.

unclethrill

Sep 17, 2009, 09:42 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 17, 2009, 09:50 PM

The path I described was by maximizing the birth of Great Scientists. 1 GS will give all but 1T of PP and 2T of RP. We would have to watch the the AIs techs to see when they get Education. As soon as they do we need to consider just finishing Lib. So far in the last three tests played forward from the end of Blubmuz's turn the AI seems to spend most of their time trying to expand and researches Nationalism first.

Gandhi has Nationalism, so he is unlikely to get Education, unless he is able to trade for it. Nationalism has equal value to Education, so Gandhi could do it. However, if a War erupts on the Big Continent soon there may be few trading partners for Gandhi.

In any case, none of the AIs are likely to Research Liberalism very soon without bulbing a Great Prophet and none of them have a Great Prophet yet. So, how soon after getting Education will the AI get Liberalism? That is the really important question that needs to be answered before we can know the true viability of getting Rifling via 1st to Liberalism.

We could even try to get a GS for PP, a GM to hurry Econ, the free GM for RP, a GS for Astro, 2 GS for SM, and Rifling free, unless we can trade for GP and take Steel free.

We already have a Great Scientist in St. Petersburg to bulb Printing Press. His Beaker value increases by 5B for every increase in our Population, so we should wait to bulb his until he can bulb all of Printing Press (assuming that is possible which I'm sure it is).

It will be very hard to get a Great Merchant now via running Merchants due to the number of GPPs needed for the next Great Person. It would probably need to come out of the White City. The Merchants would help us run 100% Research too. Bulbing Economics with a Great Merchant may be the only viable way of completing Economics in time. It may be easier to get a Great Merchant out of St. Petersburg by switching to 3 Merchants right now. A Great Merchant would be generated with ~83% probably in about 19 turns which can bulb most of Economics.

We must assume we can trade for Gunpowder on the turn we complete Liberalism to get free Rifling. This assumes we already completed Printing Press and Replaceable Parts as described above. We should delay bulbing Printing Press as long as possible to avoid appearing too advanced? If the AI thinks we are too advanced, it will not trade with us.

If we fear that an AI will complete Liberalism 1st or we can't trade for Gunpowder, we could just take Gunpowder for being first to Liberalism; Gunpowder is very hard to bulb, so its a good consolation prize for being 1st to Liberalism. On the other hand, although Astronomy is somewhat easy to bulb, it is 1.6 times more valuable than Gunpowder plus it allows us to build Galleons, so it probably should be the consolation prize for being 1st to Liberalism.

We have a strategy that has a 83% chance of providing Rifling, assuming we can trade for Gunpowder. It generates a 83% Great Merchant in St. Petersburg in 19t.

We have another strategy of generating a Great Merchant in the White City, but we need to give its growth a very high priority. It should be easy to do by squeezing Work Boats out of Moscow at a rate needed to maximize White City's growth till Happiness Cap. At that point, switching to maximum Merchants should produce a Great Merchant in about 20t with 100% probably. I'm certain this will work, but we do a test to verify that we can get the Great Merchant by t70.

We need to know how many turns of researching Economics will be left to do, if any after bulbing Economics with our generated Great Merchant. If it seems to be too many, no worries ... As we increase our Research rate, the number of turns of Research needed will fall, possibly even below 20 turns at which point we could even hire an extra Merchant with some negative growth to pop the Great Merchant a few turns earlier as needed (to feel more comfortable about beating the AI to Liberalism).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 17, 2009, 10:13 PM

I understand the idea of getting Rifling but I don't see how it is possible to finish Lib, finish RP, finish GP and finish Econ all in 20 turns. We will not pop 4 more GP in the next 20 turns. It ain't happening.

We have to trade for Gunpowder, preferably on the turn we are 1st to Liberalism.

We already have a Great Scientist to bulb Printing Press.

I just outlined a strategy to generate a Great Merchant in less than 20t that can bulb Economics.

We get a free Great Merchant from Economics to bulb Replaceable Parts.

Only 1 Great Merchant needs to be generated. Biggest question is how many turns of Economics (if any) and Replaceable Parts needs to be researched (after the Great Merchant bulbs) in addition to the turns left of Liberalism? Great Merchants don't bulb as many Beakers of Research as Great Scientists, but they probably come close.

unclethrill, please tell me what is wrong with the strategy I've outlined in this post and two earlier ones? I think it will either work or not work, depending on how many base Beakers a Great Merchant can bulb.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 17, 2009, 11:07 PM

Here's the first post I found concerning the number of Beakers a Great Person will bulb:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5719059&postcount=60

Here's the content of the above post:

Great Scientist gives up to (1500 + 3*pop) beakers
Other Great People give up to (1000 + 2*pop) beakers

This is probably scaled for Normal speed, maybe? Both formulas probably need to be multiplied by 1.5 for Epic speed:

Great Scientist gives up to (2250 + 4.5*pop) beakers
Other Great People give up to (1500 + 3*pop) beakers

Now, I'm not so sure the Great Merchants will bulb enough of Economics and Replaceable Parts to get Rifling via 1st to Liberalism. There may be too much left over to Research in time; may need to really crank up the Research to make it work.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 18, 2009, 03:22 AM

The bulb of RP will get us to about 10-15 turns away.

I'm willing to make some compromises and accept that every once in a while I may be wrong.

GB: if you can get us to 1 turn from Lib and finish Econ before the end of your TS (50 -60) then Cul will only need to figure out a way to bulb all of PP, trade for GP and finish the last 10-15 turns of RP before T70.

I'm willing to entertain a plan for making that happen. Short of a solid plan to do that, we need to bulb econ as we all decided to do and move on with the game.

greatbeyond

Sep 18, 2009, 08:10 AM

Understood and agree with the points raised. I'll do some testing on the side before playing in about 10 -12 hours.

BLubmuz

Sep 18, 2009, 09:05 AM

unclethrill

Sep 18, 2009, 02:22 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 18, 2009, 08:11 PM

Very strange that t70 used to be considered safe for being 1st to Liberalism and now that we have a plan that could get Rifling by t70, suddenly the target for Liberalism must be lowered to t65.

------

Well fine, I can't even close to that, but this t77 alternative skips Economics, unless a Great Merchant can bulb all of it. This plan has a solid mathematical basis; too bad it comes up far short of the new Liberalism target turn (65):

1) Research Liberalism till 1t is left.

2) Run maximum Merchants in St. Petersburg (3 Mer-3W); Farm Floodplains to eventual add another Merchant. May generate Great Merchant in t66-67; maybe t65, but we need to run a test to be sure. The 3rd GP will be a Great Merchant with 83% probability and a Great Scientist at 17% (66/405) probability.

3) Optionally bulb Economics for the free Great Merchant.

4) Build White City; Maximize growth; build Workboats in Moscow as needed to ensure all White City Citizens have an improved Seafood (Fish first) to work; At Happiness Cap, work maximum Merchants - perhaps 7 Merchants at Population 10; Pop 2 will take 5t, Pop 3 will take 2t (due to Granary and +10 Fpt), and thereafter the White City will grow 1 Pop per turn (due to Granary and +14 Fpt, +17 Fpt, +20 Fpt, +23 Fpt).
It takes 14t to get to Population 10. The fourth GP will take 540 GPP, 7 x 3 x 2 = 42 GPPpt and 13t to complete the 2nd Great Merchant. That's a total of 27t, so this isn't going to work by t65 or even t70. Close to t70, if White City was founded at t44.

5) With 1t to Liberalism, complete Printing Press by bulbing a Great Scientist; complete Replaceable Parts via bulbing two Great Merchants.

6) With 1t to Liberalism, trade Gunpowder and End Turn to claim Rifling via 1st to Liberalism.

A little more micromanagement t0-t50 and settlement of the White City on t44 would have allowed the above strategy to get Rifling via 1st to Liberalism by t70.

I guess that leaves us with a REX strategy that is developing too slowly in my opinion.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 18, 2009, 08:24 PM

Sorry, but yesterday i've read 'til post #527, then decided ro peply later to be more accurate, then being caught in some duty here.

So, here i am.

The plan looks pretty good, with all the variations suggested by UT and STW.

IMO we must forget anything strange, intending for strange dangerous paths to rifling.

What we have to do is to target Lib for turn 65, a safe date for Lib and for Econ.

Let's do anything, let's sell the current player axx :D, but let's try to arrive to Lib in that date.

No more strange flights, please, let's fly low (but over the trees ;)) but safe.

OK, lets go for a less aggressive target than Rifling for being 1st to Liberalism:

Astronomy

1) Research Liberalism till 1t is left.

2) Run maximum Merchants in St. Petersburg (3 Mer-3W); Farm Floodplains to eventual add another Merchant. May generate Great Merchant in t66-67; maybe t65, but we need to run a test to be sure. The 3rd GP will be a Great Merchant with 83% probability and a Great Scientist at 17% (66/405) probability.

3) Bulb Economics with the generated Great Merchant for the free Great Merchant.

4) Build White City; Maximize growth; build Workboats in Moscow as needed to ensure all White City Citizens have an improved Seafood (Fish first) to work; At Happiness Cap, work maximum Merchants - perhaps 7 Scientists at Population 10; Pop 2 will take 5t, Pop 3 will take 2t (due to Granary and +10 Fpt), and thereafter the White City will grow 1 Pop per turn (due to Granary and +14 Fpt, +17 Fpt, +20 Fpt, +23 Fpt).
It takes 14t to get to Population 10. The fourth GP will take 540 GPP, 7 x 3 x 2 = 42 GPPpt and 13t to complete the 3rd Great Scientist. That's a total of 27t, so the 3rd Great Scientist will emerge on t77.

5) With 1t to Liberalism, we simply take Astronomy for being 1st to Liberalism.

6) Probably a few turns later, we will be 1st to Economics and get the free Great Merchant which can be used to bulb most of Replaceable Parts, after we bulb Printing Press.

We can start building a Galleon ...

to accelerate our REX strategy overseas.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 18, 2009, 08:38 PM

so we can start building Riflemen. This may involve trying to trade for Gunpowder.

Boot the stuffing out of the Barbarian State to our East. We should destroy the Barbarians ability to settle in our direction. Pillage all their improvements and destroy all Barbarian units, but halt City attacks when only one defender remains.

Plus no Diplomacy negatives for attacking the Barbarians. They would do the same to us if the Power ratio were reversed.

Settling the Red Site with adequate defense becomes even more urgent with the apparently fast growth of the Barbarian State to our East.

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Sep 18, 2009, 10:00 PM

TS done

The save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Fifth_Element_SG010_AD1585_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

The Log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1535 AD to 1585 AD:

Turn 327, 1535 AD: You have trained Islamic Missionary in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 328, 1540 AD: Rostov has been founded.
Turn 328, 1540 AD: Islam has spread in Rostov.
Turn 328, 1540 AD: Islam has spread in Moscow.
Turn 328, 1540 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Caravel.

Turn 329, 1545 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!

Turn 330, 1550 AD: You have trained a Caravel in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.

Turn 331, 1555 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.

Turn 333, 1565 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.

Turn 334, 1570 AD: Aretas III (Great Merchant) has been born in York (Churchill)!

Turn 335, 1575 AD: Moscow will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 335, 1575 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 3.
Turn 335, 1575 AD: Rostov has grown to size 3.
Turn 335, 1575 AD: Moscow will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 335, 1575 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to De Gaulle for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)

Turn 336, 1580 AD: Moscow has grown to size 8.
Turn 336, 1580 AD: Moscow has become unhealthy.
Turn 336, 1580 AD: Rostov will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 336, 1580 AD: You have trained a Caravel in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.

Turn 337, 1585 AD: Rostov has grown to size
4.

For some reason Buffy still refuses to log my game.

Two slight changes from the plan:

Moscow was allowed to grow to the Happy Cap and can now start a Settler. We produced 2 more WB and a Caravel.

The Worker chopping near Novogrod is actually 1E of the city, I reasoned we will want to road to the Beaver for the Happy Boost, this also lets us work the 2F1H FGL.

Apparently our WM isn't worth much as on T56 Churchill would only give us 80G so I made the trade. G offered 20, and Roosevelt offered 10, the others spit in our face.

greatbeyond

Sep 18, 2009, 10:28 PM

Aarghh it's International Pirate Day. Celebrate with your favorite Pirate activity of your choice; Rum, Wenches, or Pillaging!

Doing all three at the same time is considered in poor taste and in fact outlawed on all 7 continents and the International Space Station.

unclethrill

Sep 19, 2009, 02:33 AM

OK, lets go for a less aggressive target than Rifling for being 1st to Liberalism:

Astronomy

I said this for a while but everyone shot me down because Econ plus the bulb of RP was "better" since we can bulb Astro later.

1) Research Liberalism till 1t is left.

2) Run maximum Merchants in St. Petersburg (3 Mer-3W); Farm Floodplains to eventual add another Merchant. May generate Great Merchant in t66-67; maybe t65, but we need to run a test to be sure. The 3rd GP will be a Great Merchant with 83% probability and a Great Scientist at 17% (66/405) probability.

I just tried this and stifling all growth after moving to size 7 and stopping almost all hammer production, we can get to 50-50 on a GM by T71. We also have to slow the GP production in Moscow so that it doesn't pop one right before dragging it out longer in SP.

3) Bulb Economics with the generated Great Merchant for the free Great Merchant.

That GM will bulb all but 5 turns of Econ so we still have to research until T76 ish.

4) Build White City; Maximize growth; build Workboats in Moscow as needed to ensure all White City Citizens have an improved Seafood (Fish first) to work; At Happiness Cap, work maximum Merchants - perhaps 7 Scientists at Population 10; Pop 2 will take 5t, Pop 3 will take 2t (due to Granary and +10 Fpt), and thereafter the White City will grow 1 Pop per turn (due to Granary and +14 Fpt, +17 Fpt, +20 Fpt, +23 Fpt).
It takes 14t to get to Population 10. The fourth GP will take 540 GPP, 7 x 3 x 2 = 42 GPPpt and 13t to complete the 3rd Great Scientist. That's a total of 27t, so the 3rd Great Scientist will emerge on t77.

5) With 1t to Liberalism, we simply take Astronomy for being 1st to Liberalism.

6) Probably a few turns later, we will be 1st to Economics and get the free Great Merchant which can be used to bulb most of Replaceable Parts, after we bulb Printing Press.

We can start building a Galleon ...

to accelerate our REX strategy overseas.

Sun Tzu Wu

I guess these calcs were based on GB doing this stuff during his TS. Too late now.

unclethrill

Sep 19, 2009, 02:34 AM

BLubmuz

Sep 19, 2009, 03:48 AM

1) Turn 334, 1570 AD: Aretas III (Great Merchant) has been born in York (Churchill)!

2) Turn 335, 1575 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to De Gaulle for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)

3) For some reason Buffy still refuses to log my game.

4) Moscow was allowed to grow to the Happy Cap and can now start a Settler. We produced 2 more WB and a Caravel.

5) The Worker chopping near Novogrod is actually 1E of the city, I reasoned we will want to road to the Beaver for the Happy Boost, this also lets us work the 2F1H FGL.

6) Apparently our WM isn't worth much as on T56 Churchill would only give us 80G so I made the trade. G offered 20, and Roosevelt offered 10, the others spit in our face.I have to open the save, more comments later.
Maybe the startegy STW proposed for rifling (the 3 GMs and double bulb RP) would work, pity it arrived too late :(
1) I hope this is a result of GP generation, not else...
2) If you don't, next player must remember to cancel the deal with DeGaulle and try to trade for money or a happy resource.
3) In case, you can manually edit the Autolog.ini file with notepad. You find it in C:\Games\Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\BUFFY-3.19.001\UserSettings, then press alt+L
4) Well done, now let's start a settler but we have to decide which location is next.
5) Yes, let's improve that ivory
6) 80 gold for a WM is a nice payoff for the caravel. Even 10 if together with a WM is a nice sum at this stage in the game.

Last comment: have you noticed how Murky's graph is ramping? what they have invented?

unclethrill

Sep 19, 2009, 03:50 AM

I'll try and be thorough and factor in all the previous discussions.

Research:
Continue Lib until there is 1 T left (in my latest test with the current save, I was able to switch to Econ and get it. LB PP and RP, research and LB Astro and take Rifling from Lib) I'll have to go back and read STW's post on "Binary research"

Looks like about 8-9 more turns left

Diplomacy:
Trade worldmaps as requested and to generate cash for research.
Deny any tech demands right now.
Deny any trade demands

Exploration:
Plagiarized from STW:
Explorer: Move in clockwise arc past Horse, NE onto Tundra and Unrevealed; 6-S; head SW toward Roosevelt's Border; explore Roosevelt's Domain.
If blocked, return past Horse Tile and then Cow, reveal area East of Mao; continue South to reveal Roosevelt's Domain.

Builds:
Novogrod - Galley, then Monastery

St Pete - Missionary 1T, Library 11T

Lib is 25 turns away still

Moscow - switch to WB 2T, Caravel 2T, Settler 13T OR WB 2T

Building a LB. no settler work done

White City - I favor a Library here OR WB
"To reduce Great Artist pollution, run just 1 Artist (free specialist) and build Culture with Citizen on the GHF. That will net us 9 Cpt, including 1 Cpt for State Relgion. After 2t, we will have 18 Culture, 3 more than needed to Pop Borders."

Workers

Worker1 (building road on St Pete's Cows) 2T, 1NE and Road 3T, 2SW and Road 3T, forest 1N2W of Novo

Worker2 (farming Moscow's Rice) 4T, Road Rice for extra health 3T, then 1SW and chop forest into the Settler

No road on Rice. No Settler in queue. No chop. Worker 2 is building a mine

Worker 3 (on Iron) move to WGH 1E of White City, Chop forest into a Library. Then road

Worker4 (Chopping NW of SP) 2T, 1E2S and Farm FP so we can run more Scientists in SP
FP south of SP are all unimproved. FP N of SP are unimproved.
City Specialists

Moscow - 1 Engineer until it hits it's happy cap

Moscow is unhealthy

St Pete - 2 Scientists until it hits it's happy cap OR time another GS to pop when Lib is down to 1T
Novogrod - 1 Engineer
White city - 1 Scientist and then gradually increase without killing growth

Why are we even doing PPPs?

greatbeyond

Sep 19, 2009, 09:10 AM

Lib - yes we are a few turns away yet. The problem is money, plain and simple. Our WM turned out to be not worth nearly as much as we wanted. I have been using the 100% - 0% to keep us going.

Library in St Pete - It can actually be done a lot quicker but it has been emphasizing food so it could grow to the happy cap quickly. This makes it able to run more specialists. It has two more turns to it's happy cap.

LB in Moscow - I explained in my post. I could have started it and let the city stagnate 4 turns away from +2 pop. It made more sense to get the production units and then start the Settler as soon as we reached the happy cap.

The Worker mining - This was a suggestion STW came up with just before I played. It made a lot of sense. With all of our citizens (+2) now able to work good production tiles the Settler will come in about the same time. STW figured the chop will probably go to ST Pete not Moscow. We won't know for sure until the Worker arrives.

FP improvements - the Worker is Farming 1N of St Pete. After the Worker is done Chopping (near Novgorod), he can help Farm the FP. The problem is not enough Workers to get all the jobs done.

GM for Churchill - So far Churchill does not have any techs. Will he trade Ed. to G for Nationalism? I'm thinking he will. The bigger question, will he try for Econ., or use the GM for a trade mission. In my testing, G always used a GM for a trade mission. Is an AI trade mission logged?

The GM gambit - the vote was 2 for and 2 for staying the course. Given a tie and no other input, I stayed with the plan.

Murky - I'm betting from the looks of their graph they used Slavery to get an early jump. I had even considered us switching to help us get Settlers out faster now that we are at the happy cap. If we go for Astro, we can take the best city sites before the AI.

culdeus

Sep 19, 2009, 12:33 PM

unclethrill

Sep 19, 2009, 03:43 PM

Cul, I'm not sure I understand your question but If you mean the fastest for us, then right now we are looking at T67-68. This is about 5-8 turns faster than I got in any of my tests but I failed to MM a good bit. I think in general we have done pretty good so I doubt it will come in for any team any more than about 5 turns faster than we did it.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 19, 2009, 05:32 PM

2) Run maximum Merchants in St. Petersburg (3 Mer-3W); Farm Floodplains to eventually add another Merchant. May generate Great Merchant in t66-67; maybe t65, but we need to run a test to be sure. The 3rd GP will be a Great Merchant with 83% probability and a Great Scientist at 17% (66/405) probability.

I just tried this and stifling all growth after moving to size 7 and stopping almost all hammer production, we can get to 50-50 on a GM by T71. We also have to slow the GP production in Moscow so that it doesn't pop one right before dragging it out longer in SP.

I'm not too surprised about being a little off on the Great Merchant generation turn, though t71 seems rather later than necessary. I assumed being able to run four Merchants for a significant number of turns (at negative Fpt if necessary).

After putting in 66 GGP while running Scientists and 339 GGP while running only Merchants, there's no way the Great Person probability could be 50% Great Scientist and 50% Great Merchant. If its not 16.3% Great Scientist and 83.7 % Great Merchants there is a bug in the Great Person generation code. Did I misunderstand what you meant by "we can get to 50-50 on a GM by T71"?

We could just run 3 Merchants starting t50 and get 83.7% Great Merchant in 19 turns = 18.83 = 339 / (3 x 3 x 2). It follows that running the last x turns with 4 Merchants would take 19 turns and probably less. Does this make sense?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 19, 2009, 06:50 PM

Astronomy

I said this for a while but everyone shot me down because Econ plus the bulb of RP was "better" since we can bulb Astro later.

I was originally against taking Astronomy via 1st to Liberalism, because it is easy to bulb Astronomy before Gunpowder.

I'm only suggesting Astronomy now to get build Galleons sooner.

I'm fine with taking Economics via 1st to Liberalism, but I need to look at the current situation before I'd give it my final OK. (I haven't downloaded the current save yet.)

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 19, 2009, 07:40 PM

Yeah, with that score dip they whipped the hell out of their cities then Rexed like mad. Might have 5 cities. I'm sure they will take Lib, but going for a strategy like that it basically says that they won't be able to do much more than the default techs.

I'm trying to get a "fastest" lib time from some of the test saves. I know some turns have been played since then, but they shouldn't have cost much, if anything.

Cul, I'm not sure I understand your question but If you mean the fastest for us, then right now we are looking at T67-68. This is about 5-8 turns faster than I got in any of my tests but I failed to MM a good bit. I think in general we have done pretty good so I doubt it will come in for any team any more than about 5 turns faster than we did it.

We have just something less than 10t to being 1st to Liberalism or about t70. Our City maintenance is quite high, so we are averaging a little more than 50% Research.

It's now t60 and Roosevelt has finally completed Education and can now start Liberalism. We should have plenty of time to be 1st to Liberalism, probably till t80 considering that it will take Roosevelt at least 20t to Research Liberalism.

Only concern here is Churchill's Great Merchant, assuming he ever gets Education. However, he has nothing yet to trade Education for nor has he completed Education yet. We need to keep track of when Churchill gets Education. That's when the real count down to Liberalism starts. Still only a concern if Churchill uses the Great Merchant on a light bulb of Economics, which he probably won't do anyway.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 19, 2009, 08:26 PM

Complete Liberalism -> free Economics & free Great Merchant

-> bulb (GS priority 6) Printing Press
-> bulb (GS priority 18) Astronomy; complete Astronomy; build Galleons

Delay as long as we don't want to bulb Chemistry:
-> trade for Gunpowder
-> bulb (GM priority 27) Replaceable Parts; complete Replaceable Parts
-> research Rifling; build Riflemen

-> bulb (GS priority 3) Scientific Method
-> bulb (GS priority 4) Physics (2 x GS)
-> bulb (GS priority 20) Electricity (2 x GS); complete Electricity
-> bulb (GS priority 14) Fission (2 x GS); complete Fission

After trading for Gunpowder:
-> bulb (GS priority 13) Chemistry
-> bulb (GS priority 19) Biology (+1F for Farms; National Park; not needed for either Fission or Rocketry)
-> bulb (GE priority 11) Steel; complete Steel
-> research Artillery
-> research Rocketry (GS priority 43, its an unlikely bulb due to Refrigeration 41 and Super Conductors 42)

Note: To avoid bulbing Biology, Gunpowder must come after Electricity (GS priority 20), but Biology (GS priority 19) is a good optional Technology.

Note: To beeline Fission via GS bulbing, Gunpowder must come after Fission to delay bulbing Chemistry (13) vs. Fission (14) and Biology (19) vs. Electricity (20); Numbers in parentheses are the GS bulbing priority for the preceding, respective Technology.

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Sep 19, 2009, 09:54 PM

I think it is still possible but will need some testing to fine tune how it should be done.

I'm still not worried about taking time to test. If each of us can do 3 to 5 tests. We can fine tune a strategy. Actual game play is not taking much time.

I don't think we have much risk if we are at 1T left to Liberalism. IIRC, isn't there an alternate path, or because this is a Renaissance start it's not possible?

I see two distinct paths that appear to be mutually exclusive:

The GP gamble; Moscow, St Pete, and Rostov all work maximum specialists. They starve until 1 turn is left before Pop loss. The benefit to this is we get so far ahead of the AI we are an age ahead of all the AIs and get to Fission by 1850 or so.

The Settler scurry; We build at least 1 and probably two Settlers in each city, chopping to get them out. Perhaps even switching to Slavery to get them out quick. We take Astro from Lib., and settle all the good land left. We would have to curry favor with the AIs to keep from being attacked. Once we are militarily secure we can spurn the AI demands. The benefit here is denying the AI any growing room and coming on strong with research later due to the large number of cities.

Each of these has a downside and perhaps a hybrid strategy can be worked out.

BLubmuz

Sep 20, 2009, 04:59 AM

I didn't tested it, but i think that using slavery for settlers is not a good idea, seen how much a settler costs.

If Murky has used slavery, they will forget Lib. I can 't see how they can have built settlers *and* libraries to use sci to pop GS for Edu and so on.
We not have a single library yet, we can run non-Eng specialists only thanks to Caste.

We have another opponent you seem to forget: the barbs.
They have more cities than any other player, they have a Holy City too (damn me, it was my suggestion to Gyathaar).
I have already seen barbs build wonders, what if they can win the lib race?
We cannot monitor them, since espionage doesn't work on barbs, as we seen in SG9.

Gunpowder
Surely we *must* delay it to bulb Astro first, but no more. We need Rifles to avoid expensive upgrades, not mentioning other good reasons.
Build nukes with maces is not a good idea, i think.

Research path
Finish Lib, take Econ
Bulb PP> finish
Bulb RP>finish
If we have another GS, we'll prioritize Astro unless we are less than 5 turns to complete RP
Then Gunpowder > Rifling

If we'll be close to settle a city or some city is close to grow, we'll wait to bulb if we can.

Max growth until we reach the happy cap, we don't care much of the health cap.

We must have at least 2 monasteries, better 3, then libraries, markets (raise wealth *and* happy cap), then, only after those, Unis for OU.

BLubmuz

Sep 20, 2009, 07:16 AM

I got the save open.

- I noticed we have 3 caravels: when the 3rd has been planned?
- The worker has not roaded the first hill, so it's one turn lost when he'll go back there
- We have built the nets only on fishes, instead of grabbing 3 different resources to improve health.

We're 10 turns away from Lib, but G offers 15g and Roos 10g for our WM, so maybe we can squeeze it in 8-9.

Techs:
Roos has Edu, G has Nationalism, but it's a monopoly and he's not willing to trade it. I guess goodbye Taj.

Relations:
G is the worst enemy of Mao and DeGaulle
Churchill is the worst enemy of Mao
Can we try to gift our WM to Churchill to improve relations?

Workers:
The one near Rostov will go back on the hill to road it.
The one just mined W of Moscow will road the rice, then he will jump on the hill N of iron to chop, then he will join the one mining near Rostov.
The one now chopping E of Novgo will finish, then road, then camp/road the furs (if there's the chance he can be joined by the one now near StPete, road first).
The one just farmed N of StPete will improve the ivory.

Moscow can work the mined hill and a plains to let StPete pop its GS and to have the LB in 1 turn. Then settler.
StPete can grow 7 in 1 turn firing a sci, then hire 3 at least until the ivory is improved.

Espionage:
we have only 4 points, so we can't make miracles, but we're at 1 EP with Mao. We can put him to 1 and the other to 0 to recover a bit.

It's all, for now. Awaiting for Culdeus PPP to comment it. If you can't post in 12 hours from now, you'll swap with Unclethrill.

unclethrill

Sep 20, 2009, 10:33 AM

I will plan to grab the save in 9 more hours unless Cul does. That will be 12 from your post time and will give me time to post a PPP before my shift is over. Then I can give 12 - 18 hours to let everyone look at it and then play tomorrow night at work.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 03:02 PM

We must have at least 2 monasteries, better 3, then libraries, markets (raise wealth *and* happy cap), then, only after those, Unis for OU.

It makes sense to build a Market in the Capital for +25% Wealth on top of the +50% Commerce of Bureaucracy, but it may not make sense to build Markets in other Cities, especially those with a low base Commerce.

One more Islamic Monastery to spread the burden of building Islamic Missionaries makes sense.

All Cities with moderate to high base Beaker output should build Libraries and Universities.

We need 5 Universities to build Oxford University and I see no reason to delay building these, since we need these buildings well before completing the latter part of the Technology paths to Fission and Rocketry.

After Astronomy, we should consider building Observatories in our Science Cities that have completed Libraries and Universities, with the sole exception of our Major Science City that should build Oxford University first (possibly via a Great Engineer rush).

When we get close to finishing Rocketry, we should stop Science building and shift more Cities to build Wealth buildings and Hammer buildings (when possible) plus tactics and strategies for building up our Tactic Nukes and Offensive units. The Research slider should drop to near zero, since our pure Research Cities should provide enough Research to get us to Assembly Line at least in a reasonable amount of time.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 20, 2009, 03:14 PM

It makes sense to build a Market in the Capital for +25% Wealth on top of the +50% Commerce of Bureaucracy, but it may not make sense to build Markets in other Cities, especially those with a low base Commerce.

The market in Moscow is good for wealth but in the other cities it is for the happiness. A couple more happy and we can continue to grow.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 03:44 PM

I see two distinct paths that appear to be mutually exclusive:

The GP gamble; Moscow, St Pete, and Rostov all work maximum specialists. They starve until 1 turn is left before Pop loss. The benefit to this is we get so far ahead of the AI we are an age ahead of all the AIs and get to Fission by 1850 or so.

The Settler scurry; We build at least 1 and probably two Settlers in each city, chopping to get them out. Perhaps even switching to Slavery to get them out quick. We take Astro from Lib., and settle all the good land left. We would have to curry favor with the AIs to keep from being attacked. Once we are militarily secure we can spurn the AI demands. The benefit here is denying the AI any growing room and coming on strong with research later due to the large number of cities.

Each of these has a downside and perhaps a hybrid strategy can be worked out.

I see a hybrid strategy working the best.

No/Low risk Technology trades:

We want to leap ahead in Research, probably with minimal early Technology trades that the AIs would trade with each other in a few turns anyway. We definitely would not trade any Technology to the AI that at least three AIs are not on the verge of completing themselves based on what Wealth they are willing to provide us for the Technology (this can be a good way to guess how many turns of researching they need to complete a particular Technology). We can back fill old Technologies by trading soon to become stale Technologies with virtually no risk to our Technology Lead.

Improving Science Cities:

Right now, we want to be 1st to Liberalism, and continue our strong Research focus that implies both maximum growth for our Science Cities and building Science buildings reasonably fast. This also includes founding a few more Science Cities.

Settler Spamming:

Any Cities not building anything critical for our Science strategy should be building Settlers when at near Happiness Cap and supporting buildings and units like Galleons, Longbowmen/Macemen/Riflemen and maybe Islamic Missionaries otherwise.

Settler Sites:

These should not be too far from the Capital, unless we plan to Complete Communism and adopt State Property.

We should focus on site will high base Commerce that can easily pay for more than their own maintenance even without building a Courthouse, which should only be built in the Cities most distant from the Capital. Also, high base Food sites should be chosen as well to grow Cities fast.

State Property:

Courthouses still reduce maintenance by 50%, but that could mean a small change of from only 8 Wpt down to 4 Wpt. This may not be worth the cost of the Courthouse.

Build Workshops and Watermills for extra Hammers with no lost of Food, until Global Warming ruins it all and we need Sid's Sushi to stay alive.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 20, 2009, 03:52 PM

STW, the markets not only give more commerce, but with furs and ivory they raise by 2 the happy cap. This is the main reason i proposed them, since we can't have a good GP farm with a low happy cap.

The universities are just slightly useful and more expensives than markets, since all our cities are low in commerce, but Moscow. If we want run a specialist economy we need specialists and the only way to assure them is raise the happy cap. A couple of more GSs can easily pay for OU at this stage in the game.

A NW i see useful is the NE in Rostov. What is a GP farm without a NE?

BTW, looking in the F9 power i noticed we're pitifully low. I think we must build a barracks in Moscow, then a couple maces just to be safe.

Just remember, this is Aggressive AI on Emperor, so they will tend to be more sensing for the power, active and passive. Even G can be different from the way we usually know him. Ever played a game with Aggressive AI on? I did, so i know what i'm saying. And i did it often in non-HoF games. Usually in scenarios or in games i play just for fun i use it and you can be surprised how things are different.

For next TS, if UT can post a PPP and play as he posted, better. We spent 5 days on last TS and we must recover.
So Culdeus, which was a bit out of pocket in the last days can be better focused and play next.

As i said this will be a long game and we must try to respect the 24/72 rule or we can't finish on time.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 04:03 PM

The market in Moscow is good for wealth but in the other cities it is for the happiness. A couple more happy and we can continue to grow.

We need Ivory and Fur to be connected for a Market to provide just two extra Happiness in the City. I see no immediate prospect for connecting either Silk or Whale, but perhaps they can be traded for? So it appears a Market is limited to two extra future Happiness in each City where it is built?

Connecting Ivory and Fur will alone provide two Happiness to all Cities. There is no need for expensive Markets to provide an additional two Happiness.

We have much better things to build than Markets for a local two extra happiness, don't we? Certainly we must examine each City for its need of extra Happiness via a Market, but few in my opinion will justify the expense of a Market for Happiness reasons alone for quite a long time.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 20, 2009, 04:03 PM

STW, the markets not only give more commerce, but with furs and ivory they raise by 2 the happy cap. This is the main reason i proposed them, since we can't have a good GP farm with a low happy cap.

The universities are just slightly useful and more expensives than markets, since all our cities are low in commerce, but Moscow. If we want run a specialist economy we need specialists and the only way to assure them is raise the happy cap. A couple of more GSs can easily pay for OU at this stage in the game.

A NW i see useful is the NE in Rostov. What is a GP farm without a NE?

BTW, looking in the F9 power i noticed we're pitifully low. I think we must build a barracks in Moscow, then a couple maces just to be safe.

I've noticed that too.

Just remember, this is Aggressive AI on Emperor, so they will tend to be more sensing for the power, active and passive. Even G can be different from the way we usually know him. Ever played a game with Aggressive AI on? I did, so i know what i'm saying. And i did it often in non-HoF games. Usually in scenarios or in games i play just for fun i use it and you can be surprised how things are different.

I agree that we need some more units to raise that power graph as soon as possible without stifling other needs.

For next TS, if UT can post a PPP and play as he posted, better. We spent 5 days on last TS and we must recover.
So Culdeus, which was a bit out of pocket in the last days can be better focused and play next.

As i said this will be a long game and we must try to respect the 24/72 rule or we can't finish on time.

In that case, I got the save and I'll post a PPP in the next couple hours. and play to play in 24 hours after as long as there is no major heartburn for my plan.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 04:22 PM

Just remember, this is Aggressive AI on Emperor, so they will tend to be more sensing for the power, active and passive. Even G can be different from the way we usually know him. Ever played a game with Aggressive AI on? I did, so i know what i'm saying. And i did it often in non-HoF games. Usually in scenarios or in games i play just for fun i use it and you can be surprised how things are different.

Remember than Aggressive AI on Vanilla/Warlords means something completely different form Aggressive AI on BtS.

Aggressive AI on Vanilla/Warlords:

Means simply a Hidden? -2 Attitude adjustment.

Aggressive AI on BtS:

All AIs have an equally increased interest in military things. The Diplomacy system is not effected, except by virtue of the higher Power ratings of AIs which is simply a natural effect of their increased interest in all things military.

Our response to Gandhi's Power:

Gandhi's Power spike up is concerning. I agree with BLubmuz that we should build a Barracks in Moscow. We should also build Macemen too, eventually.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 20, 2009, 04:26 PM

We need Ivory and Fur to be connected for a Market to provide just two extra Happiness in the City. I see no immediate prospect for connecting either Silk or Whale, but perhaps they can be traded for? So it appears a Market is limited to two extra future Happiness in each City where it is built?

Connecting Ivory and Fur will alone provide two Happiness to all Cities. There is no need for expensive Markets to provide an additional two Happiness.

We have much better things to build than Markets for a local two extra happiness, don't we? Certainly we must examine each City for its need of extra Happiness via a Market, but few in my opinion will justify the expense of a Market for Happiness reasons alone for quite a long time.

Sun Tzu WuMine is just a mid term proposal. For now the only 3 luxuries we have are gold (+2 :)) and the not yet connected ivory and furs. the situation will improve once we'll settle the icy city and hook the silver, which will give us +2 :) thanks to the free forge. We can discuss this later, but i think that after some unit and a couple settler the market is a priority for Moscow, in this case mainly for the commerce output.

In that case, I got the save and I'll post a PPP in the next couple hours. and play to play in 24 hours after as long as there is no major heartburn for my plan.
Alright, go ahead, i'll update the roster accordingly. You're officially UP.

unclethrill

Sep 20, 2009, 04:28 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 04:36 PM

- I noticed we have 3 caravels: when the 3rd has been planned?
- The worker has not roaded the first hill, so it's one turn lost when he'll go back there
- We have built the nets only on fishes, instead of grabbing 3 different resources to improve health.

It was my suggestion that the first 3 Nets be cast on Fish Tiles for maximum Growth, but I assumed Moscow would continue to build Work Boats as needed by Rostov.

We should have had two Work Boats built in Moscow now on their way to Rostov instead of the extra Caravel. Rostov is now growing at 1-2 Population per turn and we need those two Work Boats to increase Growth to 1 Population per turn.

The extra 2 Work Boats solves the problem of three different Health Resources.

We should strongly consider building at least one Work Boat in Mocsow now (if not two).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 04:40 PM

Mine is just a mid term proposal. For now the only 3 luxuries we have are gold (+2 :)) and the not yet connected ivory and furs. the situation will improve once we'll settle the icy city and hook the silver, which will give us +2 :) thanks to the free forge. We can discuss this later, but i think that after some unit and a couple settler the market is a priority for Moscow, in this case mainly for the commerce output.

I agree with a Market in Moscow soon, especially for the +25% Wealth.

I just don't see a Market as a priority in any other City, near term.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 20, 2009, 04:51 PM

Remember than Aggressive AI on Vanilla/Warlords means something completely different form Aggressive AI on BtS.

Aggressive AI on Vanilla/Warlords:

Means simply a Hidden? -2 Attitude adjustment.

Aggressive AI on BtS:

All AIs have an equally increased interest in military things. The Diplomacy system is not effected, except by virtue of the higher Power ratings of AIs which is simply a natural effect of their increased interest in all things military.

Our response to Gandhi's Power:

Gandhi's Power spike up is concerning. I agree with BLubmuz that we should build a Barracks in Moscow. We should also build Macemen too, eventually.

Sun Tzu WuYes, this will slow down our settler spamming, but if he declares and we lose a city, it's far worst than a delay. If you remember i've noticed the message "G revolted to slavery" and i posted "A bit concerned from G adopting slavery. What's the point?" in my 2nd report post, #502. If we're his target, better be prepared. I hate to lose cities, more than to delay to build them.

Wise decision, i haven't look at the F9 this morning, luckily i did it now.

Just remember he got phants, so we probably need also pikes. Maces are a disaster against mounted units.

As i said, Aggressive AI on BtS: is not only what you see in the XMLs or in the threads. You must play with it to realize what it actually is.
There should be more hidden in the game mechanics than what we see in the XMLs, trust me.

BLubmuz

Sep 20, 2009, 05:02 PM

It was my suggestion that the first 3 Nets be cast on Fish Tiles for maximum Growth, but I assumed Moscow would continue to build Work Boats as needed by Rostov.

We should have had two Work Boats built in Moscow now on their way to Rostov instead of the extra Caravel. Rostov is now growing at 1-2 Population per turn and we need those two Work Boats to increase Growth to 1 Population per turn.

The extra 2 Work Boats solves the problem of three different Health Resources.

We should strongly consider building at least one Work Boat in Mocsow now (if not two).

Sun Tzu WuIn fact, i'm asking to myself why we post PPPs, then we (not me) do not attain to them. That 3rd caravel was never planned.
The movements i recommended for the one we has at the end of my TS were not considered and our East coast is under the fog.

Guys, my recommendations are a bit more than recommendations, right? :mad:

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 05:49 PM

As i said, Aggressive AI on BtS: is not only what you see in the XMLs or in the threads. You must play with it to realize what it actually is.
There should be more hidden in the game mechanics than what we see in the XMLs, trust me.

Sorry, in post #563, you didn't specify "Aggressive AI on BtS"; You said "Aggressive AI on Emperor". I just wanted to reiterate that "Aggressive AI" means two very different things depending on whether one is playing on Vanilla/Warlords or Beyond the Sword.

Also, the source threads that I referenced earlier in this thread concerning "Aggressive AI on BtS" probably included comments from the designer of the "Aggressive AI on BtS". If anyone understands "Aggressive AI on BtS", I would hope that he does.

Of course you are absolutely right that one doesn't really understand "Aggressive AI on BtS" until one has played several Games using "Aggressive AI on BtS".

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Sep 20, 2009, 06:18 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 20, 2009, 07:00 PM

Please note that no unit on turn 60 appears to have been moved. Please include t60 moves in your PPP, unclethrill. No doubt you also noticed this, so this is for the benefit of anyone who didn't look at the t60 save yet or didn't look at it closely enough to notice it.

For all future Turn Sets, please move all units before the final Turn Set save and try to leave the selected unit be one with its movement exhausted. This way we can all load the last upload without unduly worrying about accidentally moving the current unit.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 20, 2009, 09:01 PM

Research:
Continue Lib, take Econ if still available to get the GM, if not stop and discuss before finishing TS. Bulb PP and finish if needed, begin RP.

Diplomacy:
Trade worldmaps to generate cash for research.
Trade for any resources we don't have.
Give into demands if they are within reason.

Exploration:
Continue to explore main continent
Send one caravel exploring
Position two caravel to eliminate fog to our east coast

Builds:
Novogrod - Galley, Monastery
St Pete - Library
Moscow - Finish LB, WB, Barracks, Pikeman, Settler
Rostov - Continue Lib

Workers

Finish mine, road rice, road cows
Finish road between Rostov and Moscow
Finish farm, camp ivory
Finish build camp and road on fur

City Specialists

Moscow - 1 Engineer, 3 Sci
St Pete - 2 Scientists until it hits it's happy cap then 3 Sci
Novogrod - 1 Engineer
Rostov - 1 Scientist and then as many as possible when HC hit

BLubmuz

Sep 21, 2009, 01:58 AM

Research:
Continue Lib, take Econ if still available to get the GM, if not stop and discuss before finishing TS. Bulb PP and finish if needed, begin RP.
If you see Econ still avaiable on the turn Lib is finished there's the risk that Roos (the only AI with Edu) can finish it IBT? If you get some cash we can probably be done by turn 67-68.

Diplomacy:
Trade worldmaps to generate cash for research.
Trade for any resources we don't have.
Give into demands if they are within reason.
Agreed

Exploration:
Continue to explore main continent
Send one caravel exploring
Position two caravel to eliminate fog to our east coast
Agreed

Builds:
Novogrod - Galley, Monastery
St Pete - Library
Moscow - Finish LB, WB, Barracks, Pikeman, Settler
You can finish the LB in 1 turn avoiding to lose hammers
after it, barracks, Pike, Mace, Settler or WB

Rostov - Continue Lib

Workers

Finish mine, road rice, road cows we don't need it, we already have cows. After the road on rice, better chop the forest N of Iron.
Finish road between Rostov and Moscow
Finish farm, camp ivory
Finish build camp and road on fur that worker is now chopping, then you can camp

City Specialists

1) Moscow - 1 Engineer, 3 Sci
2) St Pete - 2 Scientists until it hits it's happy cap then 3 Sci
3) Novogrod - 1 Engineer
4) Rostov - 1 Scientist and then as many as possible when HC hit
1) You probably missed my previous post: if you fire both Sci and work the mine+plains you can have the LB ready after you hit enter for the first time avoiding to lose hammers.
Also, we need a sure GS for Astro, so Moscow must run less GP points than StPete, so you'll want hire a Sci added to the Eng after the LB, but verify that StPete will be first of Moscow on the GP.

2) StPete can grow 7 if you fire a sci for 1 turn, then you can hire a total 3 by working max hammers and avoiding growth. Maybe even 4 until the ivory is camped.

3) and 4) OK for me.

I also noticed we made a mistake by farming W of rice.
We can bring water to the rice+corn by farming on the corner of the long river.
Once our workers will have time, we can build a watermill W of rice (after the farm on the corner).

BLubmuz

Sep 21, 2009, 02:44 AM

The 3rd Caravel became necessary to keep the Barb Galleys at bay. Two of them showed up off the coast and I had to keep both Caravels stacked to keep them safe. They only showed a 75% chance of a win. Thus a 3rd Caravel became necessary to fogbust and backup the first two.

As STW stated the Fish were worked first to provide higher growth. At that point health was not a problem.You never mentioned this on your report. Good to know, now UT can take care of them.
Well done, anyway.
Of course we must change what we planned if the events ask to do so.
Just report those variations and their triggers in the TS report, so we avoid criticism and subsequent justifications.
Those 2 rows on your report would have been precious for the player after you (as they are now) and avoided useless posts (by me, mainly).

This makes me think on how weak we are. We have a decent navy, if you can call 3 caravels a navy, but an absolutely ridiculous ground army.

I forgot the "Aggressive AI" thing.
We can't play that sort of farmers' gambit (a Civ3 definition) we're playing. We must build an army, then start the 2nd phase of the expansion.

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 01:54 PM

1) You probably missed my previous post: if you fire both Sci and work the mine+plains you can have the LB ready after you hit enter for the first time avoiding to lose hammers.
Also, we need a sure GS for Astro, so Moscow must run less GP points than StPete, so you'll want hire a Sci added to the Eng after the LB, but verify that StPete will be first of Moscow on the GP.

With the GS we have, the GM from Econ and a GE from Moscow, by T70 I can bring in Lib, Econ, PP and RP. Not bad for 10 turns! What do you think?

BLubmuz

Sep 21, 2009, 02:35 PM

With the GS we have, the GM from Econ and a GE from Moscow, by T70 I can bring in Lib, Econ, PP and RP. Not bad for 10 turns! What do you think?First, i suppose you tested it, 'cause i think a GE will bulb GP and not RP.
But i can be wrong.

Second, if we pop some GE i prefer to save them for the Pentagon. Those +2XP for any unit are just great. And we don't have to face AI units with +2XP, or at least not for the Pentagon.

Third (last but not least) we need badly Astro, for our REX. So, we need a GS first.

How many turns do we need for RP without bulbing? and with?

If you plan to play now, i'll be online, so you can try to keep me informed in real time and we can discuss better.
Maybe by email, if you prefer.

Have you tested for which turn we can have Lib+Econ?

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 03:16 PM

Yes I tested it and it works. They each bulb 1560 towards RP. We end up over about 300 beakers. I know from your earlier post that you prefer to hold the GE until we can get the pentagon but personally I really hate to set a great person for that long when he can immediately be used to help the game.

With only one bulb (GM) we have 15 more turns to get RP. Then we have to get GP and then Rif. We will need to research about half of GP before anyone will trade it with us.

I agree we need astro but the GS will only bulb half of it. We will still have about 20 turns left.

This leads to another discussion (not really affecting my TS), after we have half of RP (GM bulb) and half of Astro (GS bulb) what research path do we choose? Do we spend 20 turns to get to Astro so we can try and expand or do we spend 30 turns (approx) to get to Rifling so we can protect ourselves?

Either is a gamble. If we expand and can't protect ourselves, the game will be over quick (in the wrong way). If we can protect ourselves but the AI expands to all the little islands, the game will drag out but at least we will be able to finish.

Obviously you can see where I lean on this issue. This is an aggressive conquest game. The AI we have in this game are going to want to war and we need to be ready. We have spent the first 60 turns getting a good base but we can't keep flip-floping on what path we want to go down.

BLubmuz

Sep 21, 2009, 03:46 PM

Great question.
Great doubts.
Anything we choose can be right, anything we choose can be wrong.

Astro is not mandatory for the 2nd phase of the expansion.

We target the icy island and the sugar island and both are reachable by galley, unless G closes his borders.
The last city we'll settle (horses+seafood, S of Moscow) on our continent is not a problem.

More cities on islands... i haven't a plan yet. I need to open the save and try to plan.

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 07:06 PM

TS finished.

Here is my personal log of the set. The notes should be comprehensive.

Highlights:
Built some troops
Revealed most of the world
Got Lib and PP
Raised Happy and Healthy cap in all cities
Killed lots of Barb galleys (4)
Set things up to bring in a couple GP next TS. Hopefully 2 GS so that we can bulb all of astro before GP comes in.

Details:
1. Moving explorer to coast to catch caravel (T60)
2. Found two Barb galleys on the coast. Killed both (T60)
3. Removed 1 sci in Moscow to work hill (T60)
4. Traded fish to Roos for Clams. Moscow healthy now (T60)
5. Worker hooking up Rice (T61)
6. 2 Caravels on patrol in positions that can see all of east coast. (T61)
7. 1 caravel picked up explorer (T62)
8. Sold WM to G and Roos to raise 1 more turn of 100% research (T62). No one else willing to buy.
9. Finished Barracks in Moscow (T62)
10. Finished LB in Moscow (T63)
11. Finished Galley in Novo (T63)
12. Move Galley to Moscow (5)
13. Rice roaded (T63)
14. Traded 1 fish to Mao for 2 GPT (T63)
15. Traded Edu to G for 100 G + WM. (T64). His WM shows most of world.
16. Sold new WM to Church for 50 G (T64)
17. Sold WM to DeG. for 40 G (T64)
18. Sold WM to Mao for 60 G (T64).
19. Net gain for Edu - Most of world revealed + 250 G. G and DeG only 2 AI without Edu at sale time.
20. Finished Pikeman in Moscow. Sent to SP (T64)
21. Running 4 Sci and 1 Engr in Ros (T64). Hit happy cap. can run 1 more sci but then will interfere with GS in SP so delay one turn.
22. Promoted Combat1 to North patrol Caravel. Barb Galley 1SW of location and fight odds 50-50 as caravel not healed completely. Combat won at 70% (barely .3 strength left) (T65)
23. Added 2 more Sci to Rostov (6 Sci + 1 Eng). (T65) Running negative food (7 to GPer.)
24. Added 1 more Sci to SP (4 sci). (T65) Running negative food (6 to GS)
25. Got Lib. Took Econ. Got GM for Econ (T67). GM sleeping in Moscow.
26. Bulbed PP (T67) 54 beakers short-1T with 41 overflow.
27. Got PP (T68). Start GP (12T). Will need to stop if we get close and haven't got 2 sci to bulb astro yet.
28. Galley in Moscow (T68)
29. Pikeman finished in Moscow. Moving to SP. (T68)
30. Ivory done. Building Road (T68)
31. HC raised in Rostov. Working all seafood. Growth in 4 turns. GPer in 7 (will change after growth) (T69)
32. HC raised in Moscow. Dropped Sci. Working Rice. Growth in 2 turns (T69)
33. HC raised in SP. Dropped 2 Sci. Working 2 FP. Growth in 20 (T69) GS in 4
34. Fought a barb galley. Win. Unloaded Explorer first. Just in case (T70)
35. Dropped Clams from Roos as we have plenty of health. (T70)
36. Trade Fish to Church for Wine for Happy (T70).
37. Finished MM in Moscow. Headed to SP (T70)
38. Started Settler in Moscow (7) (T70)

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 07:08 PM

Here are logs:

Session Log:

Turn 337, 1585 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) (3.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Combat Odds: 79.3%
Turn 337, 1585 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) (3.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Combat Odds: 79.3%
Turn 337, 1585 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 337, 1585 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 338, 1590 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.

Turn 339, 1595 AD: You have trained a Galley in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Maceman.
Turn 339, 1595 AD: Marie Curie (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 340, 1600 AD: You have constructed a Library in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Crossbowman.

Turn 341, 1605 AD: You have trained a Pikeman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Pikeman.
Turn 341, 1605 AD: Alexander Graham Bell (Great Engineer) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!

Turn 342, 1610 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) (2.93) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 342, 1610 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (73/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (57/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (41/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (25/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (9/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 342, 1610 AD: Gandhi has completed Shwedagon Paya!

Turn 343, 1615 AD: Stalin is the first to discover Liberalism!
Turn 343, 1615 AD: You have discovered Liberalism!

Turn 344, 1620 AD: Adam Smith (Great Merchant) has been born in Moscow (Stalin)!
Turn 344, 1620 AD: You have discovered Economics!
Turn 344, 1620 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 344, 1620 AD: You have trained a Pikeman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Maceman.

Turn 346, 1630 AD: The borders of Moscow are about to expand.
Turn 346, 1630 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Moscow.
Turn 346, 1630 AD: Rostov will shrink to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 346, 1630 AD: The borders of Moscow have expanded!
Turn 346, 1630 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 346, 1630 AD: Gandhi has founded Pataliputra in a distant land.

Turn 347, 1635 AD: Churchill has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Gandhi has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) (3.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Combat Odds: 79.3%
Turn 347, 1635 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Your Caravel 14 (Moscow) has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 347, 1635 AD: Deal Canceled: Fish to Roosevelt for Clam

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 07:09 PM

Autolog:

------------------------------------------------

Turn 60/473 (1585 AD) [22-Sep-2009 02:50:41]

A Mine was built near Moscow

A Farm was built near St. Petersburg

While attacking, Caravel 3 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.3%)

While attacking just off shore, Caravel 3 (Moscow) (3.00/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.3%)

While attacking, Caravel 11 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.3%)

While attacking just off shore, Caravel 11 (Moscow) (1.47/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.3%)

Moscow begins: Barracks (2 turns)

Novgorod begins: Maceman (14 turns)

100% Research: 72 per turn

0% Culture: 12 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -28 per turn, 31 in the bank

After End Turn:

St. Petersburg grows to size 7

Rostov grows to size 5

Turn 61/473 (1590 AD) [22-Sep-2009 03:13:38]

100% Research: 78 per turn

0% Culture: 12 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -29 per turn, 28 in the bank

After End Turn:

Moscow finishes: Barracks

Other Player Actions:

Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 62/473 (1595 AD) [22-Sep-2009 03:29:44]

0% Research: 15 per turn

0% Culture: 12 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 33 per turn, 5 in the bank

After End Turn:

Moscow finishes: Longbowman

Novgorod finishes: Galley

Rostov grows to size 6

Turn 63/473 (1600 AD) [22-Sep-2009 03:32:12]

Moscow begins: Pikeman (3 turns)

DEFAULT (Longbowman) promoted: City Garrison I

Moscow begins: Maceman (3 turns)

Moscow begins: Pikeman (3 turns)

St. Petersburg begins: Crossbowman (9 turns)

100% Research: 79 per turn

0% Culture: 12 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -31 per turn, 38 in the bank

After End Turn:

St. Petersburg finishes: Library

Rostov grows to size 7

Other Player Actions:

Islam has spread: Vijayanagara (Indian Empire)

Turn 64/473 (1605 AD) [22-Sep-2009 03:40:41]

Tech traded to Gandhi (India): Education

100% Research: 87 per turn

0% Culture: 14 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -30 per turn, 237 in the bank

After End Turn:

Moscow finishes: Pikeman

Other Player Actions:

Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Attitude Change: Gandhi (India) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 65/473 (1610 AD) [22-Sep-2009 03:55:32]

Caravel 11 (Moscow) promoted: Combat I

While attacking, Caravel 11 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 78.3%)

While attacking just off shore near Moscow, Caravel 11 (Moscow) (0.27/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 78.3%)

Novgorod begins: Islamic Monastery (17 turns)

100% Research: 93 per turn

0% Culture: 14 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -33 per turn, 207 in the bank

After End Turn:

Novgorod grows to size 4

Turn 66/473 (1615 AD) [22-Sep-2009 04:16:20]

100% Research: 95 per turn

0% Culture: 14 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -33 per turn, 174 in the bank

After End Turn:

Tech research finished: Liberalism

Turn 67/473 (1620 AD) [22-Sep-2009 04:17:43]

Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Economics

Adam Smith (Great Merchant) born in Moscow

Research begun: Printing Press (21 Turns)

A Camp was built near St. Petersburg

Moscow begins: Maceman (3 turns)

100% Research: 97 per turn

0% Culture: 14 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -32 per turn, 141 in the bank

After End Turn:

Tech research finished: Printing Press

Moscow finishes: Pikeman

Turn 68/473 (1625 AD) [22-Sep-2009 04:23:57]

Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Gandhi (India) asks Stalin (Russia) to stop trading with Mao Zedong (China); Stalin REFUSES.

Research begun: Gunpowder (12 Turns)

100% Research: 97 per turn

0% Culture: 14 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -33 per turn, 109 in the bank

Turn 69/473 (1630 AD) [22-Sep-2009 04:32:01]

Moscow begins: Settler (9 turns)

100% Research: 87 per turn

0% Culture: 14 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -33 per turn, 76 in the bank

After End Turn:

Moscow's borders expand

Moscow finishes: Maceman

Turn 70/473 (1635 AD) [22-Sep-2009 04:40:52]

While attacking, Caravel 14 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.3%)

While attacking just off shore, Caravel 14 (Moscow) (1.47/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.3%)

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 07:11 PM

Game Link:

FE_1635_Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Fifth_Element_SG010_AD1635_01.CivBeyondSwordSave)

Sorry there are no screenies. My computer is still being difficult on that issue.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 21, 2009, 07:44 PM

First, i suppose you tested it, 'cause i think a GE will bulb GP and not RP.
But i can be wrong.

Wrong: A Great Engineer has priority 9 for bulbing Replaceable Parts, but only priority 25 for bulbing Gunpowder.

Second, if we pop some GE i prefer to save them for the Pentagon. Those +2XP for any unit are just great. And we don't have to face AI units with +2XP, or at least not for the Pentagon.

I agree, even though it will be a long time before we will have Assembly Line and be able to build/rush The Pentagon. It will be hard to generate another Great Engineer with just a Forge; it becomes easier with Steel and Iron Works, but IW takes a long time to built so we may not even try.
Third (last but not least) we need badly Astro, for our REX. So, we need a GS first.

How many turns do we need for RP without bulbing? and with?

Replaceable Parts is 2721B.

Turns to complete Replaceable Parts without bulbing is about 30-45, depending on how fast we increase our Research rate, how much maintenance increases, how much Wealth we can get in trade with the AI Civs. Just completing Printing Print will knock off 3-5 turns of Research as seen via the F6 Pop-up Window.

A Great Scientist bulb provides 2250 + 5 x <Civ Pop>.
Other Great Person bulb provides 1500 + 3 x <Civ Pop>.

There is perhaps a 20% discount for knowing both prerequisite Technologies, Printing Press and Banking (even though both are required).

A Great Merchant would bulb about 2/3 of Replaceable Parts leaving a very hard 10-15 turns (translates to 15-23 turns, due to lower Research/higher Wealth costs than 20-30 turns in the future -- hand waving as in magic wand).

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 08:23 PM

You lost me on that last part STW. If it is 10-15 turns now (which is what I see in tests) then how is it 20-30 turns in the future? I don't think I like that magic wand of your! :)

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 21, 2009, 08:42 PM

TS finished.

Here is my personal log of the set. The notes should be comprehensive.

Congratulations! A well executed Turn Set!

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 21, 2009, 09:38 PM

Congratulations! A well executed Turn Set!

Sun Tzu Wu

Thanks. I think you're up.

One thing to keep in mind:
We need 2 GS before GP to bulb Astro or we will bulb chem. The first will be out in about 3 turns. The second hopefully from Ros will be in about 10 or 12 IIRC and GP in about 10. We will also be able to trade for GP after about half of the research is done. So when it is at about 5 turns left, switch to RP and start knocking out those 10-15 turns.

BLubmuz

Sep 22, 2009, 04:02 AM

unclethrill

Sep 22, 2009, 10:57 AM

Yes, STW is UP. Culdeus posted only once in the last week, i think he's busy. I moved him at the end of the roster, in case i'll give him the lurker state and if he can play i'll insert him.

Well done UT :goodjob:

Thanks!

Some notes: Why research GP if we can go for RP? we can bulb 1578 :science: right now, out of 2721. But if we start next turn and we wait 3 turns for Novo and Rostov to grow we'll gain some beakers. Better stop research now, so we can have some money in bank. We'll also avoid risks to research GP for too long and not gain much from the trade.

My thought was that we have to research about half before anyone will trade GP. In my earlier tests, Roos was the second to get it and he would trade it for Lib after we have half done. If we time it so that half is done, then as soon as we get 2 GS (next 15ish turns) we can bulb Astro and trade for GP on the same turn. At that point we could be almost done with RP also. Then all we have to do is research Rif and we are good on defense.

DeGaulle is the first to have GP (which opens his UU) and G still first to have Nationalism, both in monopoly.
DeGaulle is also the only one lacking Edu.

GP is 1814 :science: and we already have 434 on it, Econ 2116 :science:.
So another good reason to stop it and wait for another AI will get it and see if we can trade it.

Of course things are different between tests and the actual game but in my early tests, we needed to have about 900 and Econ or Lib in the trade for GP. DeG won't trade so we can write him off unless we give him something good right now. I don't like that idea but it does work. I also prefer to give Lib away since it is a dead end tech and the best they can do with it is to change to free religion and like us or free speech and focus on culture. Either one is a win-win for us.

Astro is 3024 :science: and we already have 41 on it. If STW is correct a gs can bulb 2250+28*5= 2390 and we can have it in some 10 turns.

So we want to only put 1 GS on Astro instead of 2? If that is the case, even more reason to be on GP. The first GS will pop in 4T IIRC and then we can finish GP, put the next GS on Chem and have a couple muskets for defense.

Caravels: better promote to C1 the 2 with 2XP, and medic1 the one with 5. A medic ship is always useful.

I learned in the last SGOTM that we never promote unless we have to or BLubz says so!:lol:

StPete: Can we build barracks before complete the Xbow? Soon or later we need them and after next GS StPete can have good production and provide some troops when needed.

I agree. The extra experience is probably the best choice.

Novo: Too expensive barracks now, let's complete the Mace and send him to StPete.

Moscow: if it works a coast, the settler will not improve, but we gain 2 :commerce:
But i noticed it can grow in 1 turn, now our caps are raised.
I also noticed it can complete a library in 1 turn and grow!
I propose to complete it, then back to settler.
A Lib in 1 turn is a good idea. I think then settler and then bank (+8-10 gold/turn IIRC)
BTW, where do we send that settler?

Good question. If we go safe and hit the south island we get silver. This is the good choice if we are afraid of G going there. I think the real threat there is the barbs and our caravels eliminate that threat as long as we keep them where they are. The sugar island is probably the better choice. I think with 1 galley, we send a settler and a missionary on the boat then come back and get a LB and worker. This allows for the borders to pop faster and block off more land for us.

If we choose the sugar island we can start move the galley in Rostov.
If we choose the silver island we can wait the turn before and move the galley S of a gold hill. We need also a LB to load together with the settler and a worker to improve the silver or the sugar, possibly a new one (5th).

The worker near StPete can improve the other Ivory, so after the GS StPete can be switched on max production. And we'll have a backup, just in case.

Agreed. Then hook up horses to open knights for us.

I was right about barbs: they own a continent sized roughly like ours with well developed cities.

As usual! :goodjob:

Future spots: the new map doesn't shows much. Just another island NW of the already located sugar island, again with sugar is interesting.
But once scouted the big (?) island right S of the damaged caravel and the other big (?) island E of the big continent we can have more infos.
There's also the copper+sheep island SE of the sugar island.

Now we need a plan for settlers (with escort snd worker) and sites.

I think get the explorer on the damaged caravel, move him to the big island SW of current location then send back to home. Send settler & missionary on galley with escort to sugar island. Come back and get worker and LB. Then decide from there. We need a comprehensive plan but we all know that if we plan to detailed to far out something will change it all so we need to be directed yet flexible.

BLubmuz

Sep 22, 2009, 12:58 PM

I think get the explorer on the damaged caravel, move him to the big island SW of current location then send back to home. Send settler & missionary on galley with escort to sugar island. Come back and get worker and LB. Then decide from there. We need a comprehensive plan but we all know that if we plan to detailed to far out something will change it all so we need to be directed yet flexible.

Not sure 'bout this.
If the island is actually big the explorer can be useful, but he's sure useful in fogbusting to avoid a barb city before we settle there.

My thought was that we have to research about half before anyone will trade GP. In my earlier tests, Roos was the second to get it and he would trade it for Lib after we have half done. If we time it so that half is done, then as soon as we get 2 GS (next 15ish turns) we can bulb Astro and trade for GP on the same turn. At that point we could be almost done with RP also. Then all we have to do is research Rif and we are good on defense.

OK, but i see no reason to run on this. Once we'll see GP on the table we can switch research and if we can manage to trade it as is, better.
We can go for RP immediately and switch to Astro, which i consider a priority.
Or go directly for Astro, since there's no doubt next GP will be a GS.

If you add to this that we must run some turn at 0% research from now, any tech we choose will finish next TS, bulb or not

I learned in the last SGOTM that we never promote unless we have to or BLubz says so!3) never promote a unit right out of barracks: the first promotion will be given at the front. Naval and air units are promoted to C1. of course if a city is under siege, CG1 will be given, or C1 if not an archer/GP
This game, since we're aggressive, the C1 for GP units is automatic, so we'll leave them unpromoted. In the case of the caravel arrived to level 3, the useful options are C2 or Medic1. I like to have a naval medic unit in my games. But this is questionable.

The above quote is from my post #4 (Fifth Element playing rules)

unclethrill

Sep 22, 2009, 01:37 PM

I agree that any tech we choose will likely finish in the following TS but we definitely need to make the decision now as to which to pursue.

How much settling requires us to have Galleons? Are there enough locations to justify the deviation in tech path now and if we do are we committed to getting the settlers out to actually settle those spots?

I think this is a legitimate discussion point. Rifleman will protect all cities for a long time and if we get Astro and then don't actually build the settlers then it is a waste to spend the time right now. Now if we are committed to REXing out 2-4 cities that can only be reached with Galleons and will effectively box out the AI, then I'm all for it as it will speed up the reasearch in short order but if we sit on the tech for 40 or 50 turns then Rifling is the better choice in the short term.

BLubmuz

Sep 22, 2009, 03:23 PM

To be honest, for what i can see, every spot can be reached by galley.
And any location on this map, also. In fact we can trade with any AI.

But a galleon has +2MP compared to a galley and it can choose the shortest path, not the coastal one. For this reason it's also not tied to OB, since it can cross the ocean.
And it carries 3 units, so the Settler/LB/Missionary combo can go in the same ship.

Also, a GS will pop SM if we have Astro, not Chem. (please confirm, STW) and SM is in the straight path to Nukes :nuke: :D. But we can be interested also in Chem, which opens a lot of interesting techs. And Frigates, with Astro.
We must be care to not complete a tech before to bulb a tech we like to have.

Back to rifling.

My proposal is:
- switch immediately on RP (but 0% research for 3 turns), and when our cities will grow (exactly 3 turns), bulb it. Then finish it. Another point scored, end of discussions on this.
- In 3 turns we'll have next GS from StPete, bulb Astro immediately: another problem solved, no maintenance for one more unit, no risk to be switched on Chem after GP.
This will bring us to turn 70 without any new tech discovered. Then we can better see the situation and take the final decision.
- if we'll see GP on the table, we can try to trade it (but after we'll bulb Astro). If the AI won't trade it with the present 434 :science:, let's switch to GP until the trade is reasonable and try to trade for it any turn, until we can switch back to RP or Astro (this will depend by when GP will appears on the table).

It seems a good solution. We'll start immediately the path to Rifling, but we'll have almost all Astro in the pocket. Then we can decide.

unclethrill

Sep 22, 2009, 03:41 PM

This will bring us to turn 70 without any new tech discovered. Then we can better see the situation and take the final decision.

We are already at T70 thanks to my stellar TS. How about we let STW play to T80 instead! :lol::lol::lol:

I agree on all points so lets get that STW PPP going.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 22, 2009, 07:22 PM

I'm put together a PPP that will attempt to cover the consensus of unclethrill's and BLubmuz's ideas in the previous seven posts. I have only a few disagreements with any of it.

I hope that culdeus stays in the line-up.

When did Mesix say he might be available to play?

I'll try to put together a PPP in the next few hours.

One of my ideas to add Work Boat builds to Moscow's queue so both Moscow and Rostov will grow faster; Rostov will be able to support more Scientists and Moscow will be able to build Settlers faster.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 22, 2009, 07:33 PM

Both will be at their HC before you can get a WB out and settled.

culdeus

Sep 22, 2009, 08:34 PM

Sorry, yeah I've been busy at nights lately. The speed was slow and then now it's almost breakneck. May be best to put at lurker until the great nuke war. I got distracted and played late into a game and have some new thoughts. It's still not clear to me what techs we'll do our global thermonuclear conquest with. The single biggest thing to note is that it is extremely taxing to put out the sheer number of nukes. This is roughly 3x a space race on hammers if not more. Some get shot down and those don't count. When it's time to ramp up we'll have to massively overhaul our city improvements. There is NOT enough time to bring on nuke'd cities to production. The nuke just ruins them forever.

In any situation the Ghandi war needs to happen before long. We are well setup and resourced to make that one quick and deadly.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 23, 2009, 01:59 AM

Also, a GS will pop SM if we have Astro, not Chem. (please confirm, STW) and SM is in the straight path to Nukes :nuke: :D. But we can be interested also in Chem, which opens a lot of interesting techs. And Frigates, with Astro.
We must be care to not complete a tech before to bulb a tech we like to have.

Scientific Method is Priority 3 for a Great Scientist. He will definitely bulb SM before anything else in this Era.

Physics is Priority 3 for a Great Scientist, so we will need to bulb and complete Physics before Chemistry (priority 13) can be bulbed by a GS. GS priority for Electricity is 20.

Note that Biology is priority 19 for GS, so for beelining to Fission (priority 14), we would need to hold off on Gunpowder until 2 bulbs of Electricity are completed.

I'd say we could use Biology anyway and things become much easier though Fission will be delayed by the time needed to bulb Biology and complete it; in this case there's no need to delay Gunpowder.

For bulbing to work just right, one has to get all one's ducks in order, or it will workout less well than one wanted or not at all; fortunately, our bulbing choices are great and no Gunpowder until Electricity is twice bulbed or very good and we must take Biology as well.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 23, 2009, 02:25 AM

The current status of the Game is in the spoiler below as Code, but it is wider than the 80 columns allowed for code. Same text is in the attachment below my sig and displays well via notepad. You may prefer to view it that way instead. Important considerations are mentioned only in the Status text, so please don't skip it.

Status:

F1: NAME POP F+ Pt He Ha Ham Wea TR ? Res Cul Crt Ctu GPP Grt Gtu ? CDef Dis Pow Producing Htu
Moscow 8 5 - 1 2 33 0 2 1 39 151 3 200 321 6 14 - 40% - Settler 7
St. Petersburg 7 2 19 2 2 13 0 2 4 18 389 9 41 372 12 3 - 40% - Crossbowman (0 XP) 1
Novgorod 4 3 3 8 5 5 0 2 4 8 58 1 92 180 6 38 - 20% - Macemen (0 XP) 1
Rostov 7 12 3 2 2 2 0 2 3 22 33 1 117 300 18 6 - 45% - Library 5

F2: Financial Advisor
Commerce: Tiles(27) = 39; Domestic Trade = 8; Buildings = 21; Total Commerce = 68
Research: 100% = 87
Culture: 00% = 14
Espionage: 00% = 4
Wealth: 00% = 0
Income: Taxes = 0; Net Foreign Income = 2; Total Income = 2
Expenses: Unit Cost = 10; Unit Supply = 0; City Maintenance = 14; Civic Upkeep = 9; Inflation = 4; Total = 37

F3: Civics: Government: Despotism; Legal: Bureaucracy; Labor: Caste System; Economy; Religion: Pacifism; 9 Wpt
May consider adopting Hereditary Rule for extra Happiness.

F4: Foreign Advisor:
Glance Active Info Fav Wants Wea Will Trade Won't Trade
Churchill -2 Wine/Fish HRBuCSMePa Nat Lib, PP, Eco 50
De Gaulle -2 OB HRBuCSMePa Nat Ed, PP 0 Gunpowder
Roosevelt +7 OB HRBuCSMePa Mer +6 Lib, PP, Eco 40
Gandhi +4 OB HRBuSaMePa US Lib, PP, Eco 90 Nationalism
Mao Zedong -2 OB; 2W/Fish HRBuCSMePa Nat Lib, PP, Eco 40
Option: Trade for Nationalism and adopt Nationhood for Favorite Civic status with Churchill and De Gaulle

F5: Worker: 4; Explorer: 1; Macemen: 1; Pikemen: 2; Longbowmen: 5; Galley: 1; Caravel: 3; Great Merchant: 1.

F6: Active: Gunpowder 434/1814; Astronomy 41/3024; Replaceable Parts 0/2721; Nationalism 0/2721; -> Rifling 0/3628.

F9: Power: Gandhi/Stalin = 34/27 = 1.259 = 126%; Roosevelt/Stalin = 25/27 = 93%
Good Diplomacy with Gandhi and fair Power parity should be enough to maintain Peace, but a Power
spike now from Stalin should dissuade Gandhi from seriously considering a DoW upon Stalin.
Recommend Barracks in several Cities and 3-6 more units to bring Stalin to Power parity with Gandhi.

PPP: Research can be set to 00% for 3-4 turns for Wealth accumulation, but we have plenty of turns in either RP or Astr. to Res.

Research Alternative #1: Switch to Replaceable Parts; After significant Population Growth, bulb Great Merchant + verify bulb formula.
Bulb Great Scientist -> Astromony (verify formula) just prior to trading for Gunpowder; When Gunpowder becomes available to trade,
offer Liberalism in exchange; In case of no deal, switch to Gunpowder until deal becomes possible; switch back to Replaceable Parts.
Complete Replaceable Parts; Switch to Rifling. Complete Astronomy.

Research Alternative #2: Switch to Astronomy; After significant Population Growth, bulb Great Scientist + verify bulb formula.
Complete Astronomy. Pursue Rifling as in Research Alternative #1 above.

Moscow: 1F1H -> 3F1C; +7 Fpt for 5t -> 10P; 18 Hpt x 1.75 = 30 Hpt; Add 2F2C in 1t; In 5t, 1 Eng-2H + Max. Sci-3B
Builds: Library (1t), Work Boat (2t + 10H OF), Work Boat (1t), Bank (1t/6t), Settler (5t+4t next TS)
Alt. #1 Builds: Settler (7t), Bank (3t+3t Next TS)
Alt. #2 Builds: Library (1t); Settler (9t)

St. Petersburg: Shifting from minor Great Scientist Farm to more Military City; no Citizen shifting needed; keep pure 2 Sci-3B.
Builds: Barracks (3t ~8H OF); Crossbowman (1t ~13H OF); Pikeman (5t); Maceman (1t + 7t next TS)
Worker 4: move 1-NE; build Camp 2-N & 1-W of St. Petersburg (6t); 1-S; build Floodplains Farm 1-N of St. P. (4t + 4t next TS)

Novgorod: Shifting to Islamic Missionary Building City; maintain growth till 5P; then shift to higher hammer tiles to build faster.
Builds: Maceman (1t 3H OF); Islamic Monastery (17t or maybe add 5 Hpt by Farming Fp + working 2H + 1F1H4C or building Workshop)
Worker 1: build Workshop 1-SE of Novgorod (9t); start Floodplains Farm 2-N & 1-W of Novgorod (1t + 7t next TS).
Worker 2: move 1-SW, move 1-W, start Floodplains Farm 2-N of Novgorod(8t); move 1-W; help with Floodplains Farm 2-N & 1-W.

Rostov: Add more Sci-3B as population increases
Builds: Library (5t); Market (101t or build 3 1F3H Mines in nearby hills to help built it faster).
Worker 3: complete Road (1t); build Mine 1-E of Rostov(6t); move 1-NW; build Mine 1-N of Rostov(3t + 3t next TS);

Military Units: new and free military units move into St. Petersburg for defense against Gandhi.

Naval Units: Promotions Combat 1; Caravel with 5 XP Combat 2 or Medic; Damaged naval units heal in Shore Tile first;
2 Caravels on east coast will #1 defend that area and also scout outside of Barbarian visibility if possible, ending
turns on Shore Tile for +10% Defense against attack.
Caravel near Sugar Island will explore Island to its SW after healing.
Galley will stay in Moscow or later in TS be sent toward next City Site.

Explorer will stay on Sugar Island to fog bust maybe, but maybe its better to move it to Island SW of there?

National Epic: Maybe we should start building this in Rostov now or later in St. Petersburg with Biology? Possibly rush it with GE?

In case of unusual event, turn will be saved in current state and uploaded to SG server and downloaded by STW;
Game will pause for 24-48 hours discussion; STW will implement group plan to deal with the event and complete TS.

It's late now and I'm sure I've missed or overlooked something. Also, I'm sure there will be suggested changes,
especially since we're not sure whether our focus will be getting Rifling first or Astronomy first. We can get
to Astronomy fastest and we really should be settling every Island near the Big Continent now, so we need Galleons
very soon. We have to try to keep Research at 50% average and preferably higher and keep bulbing like crazy and
build Banks to keep the Economy going!

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 23, 2009, 03:07 AM

GP is mandatory for Rifling, so we can't avoid to delay it. I'll feel much better with some good rifle protecting our cities or ready to counterattack.

I think that the path i proposed can work well. Just hold Astro until 1 turn to completion if after RP and the turns we must spend on it GP will not show on the table.
I doubt you can arrive there, i guess you can probably complete RP with the library in Moscow in your TS, then we'll arrive to turn 80 and my TS and we can see the situation there.

It will be important to keep all our units in StPete. G's power is impressive, he's got the most massive army now. I think that our strategy to box him worked well if he's so desperate to try a military move. And i can't see any other target.

Another point: don't keep workers W of StPete. You need all the units in the city to gain the fortify bonus. There're hills to mine E of the city, move them there. Or improve the horses, so we unlock knights.

Act as we are at war.

BLubmuz

Sep 23, 2009, 03:29 AM

STW, i see your PPP after i posted the notes above.
First, a great work of analysis, i'm impressed reading the txt.
Second, it should be very late there, so you'll probably read me after what it rest of the night.

I have seen you got the point on G's power. But no need to build more units.
Sure, the barracks in StPete are necessary, so better build them before the Xbow to gain some XP and to avoid maintenance for few turns.

After library and 1WB, maybe 2, Moscow must start a settler or we delay too much our expansion. Unless StPete can contribute also to settlers now that we have the "true" GP farm in Rostov.

I noticed Culdeus note about how expensive are nukes and more interesting points. Our best use of a GE is Mining Inc. Grabbing some island with MI resources it can give us the hammers to build those expensives monsters.
If you agree, we must try to squeeze a GE from Moscow after next or second next GS.
Mining inc resources: we currently own 3 (2 gold +1 iron)
By settling and improving the icy city we'll arrive to 6 (2 silver +1 iron)
By settling and improving the sugar city we'll arrive to 7 (1 copper)
plus, on not yet decided sites: copper+sheep island +1. Only those will net us 8 mining resources, not counting coal, which is not revealed yet.

For your TS, you'll want to complete RP and bulb/start Astro. Then we'll decide.

Remember: no workers W of StPete.
Unusual event: a war with G is expected, we spent last TS in countermeasures. No need to stop. Do your best. I'm sure it will be enough.

As you have seen, i recommend the medic1 for the caravel.

Espionage we all continue to forget about this.
Please set Mao to 1 and let the others to 0. We're at 0 points with him and we must recover a bit.

unclethrill

Sep 23, 2009, 12:07 PM

unclethrill

Sep 23, 2009, 12:17 PM

I agree on the barracks in SP then CB. After that, I think we will have enough troops for a while. Be sure to move all troops to SP and fortify. I got a bad feeling about G and that switch to Slavery a few TS back was probably a good indication about what is to come. I give him 10 -20 turns before he heads our way (hopefully the troops we built will dissuade him but I doubt it). After that, we need infrastructure and maybe a settler.

Moscow should go lib, WB, WB then settler, then bank, Uni (maybe a market in there for happy).

Rostov needs the NE but it will take a while so with all that extra food we might think about getting a couple settlers there but it will seriously impede our GP generation so it may not be the best use of resources.
I think in the next ~30 turns we need to settle 3-4 new cities. The sugar city, the silver city, another island city and lastly the local city. This should do it for our expansion I think. 8 cities will carry us for a good while IMO and then we can focus on infrastructure.

unclethrill

Sep 23, 2009, 12:21 PM

Of course, take my last point with a grain of salt please. I personally don't think we need to finish astro before rifling. I think rifles are the number 1 research priority. From the looks of the map, we can reach any place we want to settle with galleys and with the circum nav bonus, they travel as far as a normal galleon would.

unclethrill

Sep 23, 2009, 12:28 PM

Remember: no workers W of StPete.
Unusual event: a war with G is expected, we spent last TS in countermeasures. No need to stop. Do your best. I'm sure it will be enough.

I agree here. We have one ivory, the second does no real benefit so send him to the horses. This will protect the worker if the war does happen.
We are as prepared as we can be for a war so there really isn't much to discuss. I agree if there is a DoW then go with it and do your best. Just remember this: If he attacks and any of his units survive, kill them before they can run away. This will help us to get peace back faster. (I'm sure you know this already).

BLubmuz

Sep 23, 2009, 12:56 PM

I don't see any way that STW can complete RP in his TS. One thing we could do is sell lib in about 4 turns when everyone has some money. We could get about 350 total from it and that would help research to keep up for another TS but the downside is that we no longer have a tech to trade for GP. It's a trade off and we can discuss it if we want. Even with that, we still won't finish RP in this TS. The other choice is that we can start putting turns on Astro. After the bulb, it will have 6 turns left. This may be able to be finished this TS even without selling Lib. Then when the GS in Rostov pops we can immediately us him to bulb SM instead of setting him for several TS.I don't care if he will complete RP or not, it's just to say: go on with RP, no else.

I agree on the barracks in SP then CB. After that, I think we will have enough troops for a while. Be sure to move all troops to SP and fortify. I got a bad feeling about G and that switch to Slavery a few TS back was probably a good indication about what is to come. I give him 10 -20 turns before he heads our way (hopefully the troops we built will dissuade him but I doubt it). After that, we need infrastructure and maybe a settler.

Moscow should go lib, WB, WB then settler, then bank, Uni (maybe a market in there for happy).

Rostov needs the NE but it will take a while so with all that extra food we might think about getting a couple settlers there but it will seriously impede our GP generation so it may not be the best use of resources.
I think in the next ~30 turns we need to settle 3-4 new cities. The sugar city, the silver city, another island city and lastly the local city. This should do it for our expansion I think. 8 cities will carry us for a good while IMO and then we can focus on infrastructure.Yes, NE in Rostov is a must, but your idea about settlers can be great. Listen (well, read :p): Moscow will build 2 WB after the library and send them to Rostov. Rostov can work max food, with additional 2 :commerce: each and hire 3-4 sci until it grows to the Happy cap. Then it can work all seafood and build settlers, without risk to grow. In that meantime, the 2 workers will mine all the hills and workshop the GL. This will ensure good production. Once Rostov will squeeze 2 settlers and Moscow build structures and support (LB, workers) Rostov can start the NE. Remember we're industrious, so even without marble it doesn't take too much.

A market is better than a bank: cheaper, only half of a bank for commerce, but 2 happy instead of 0.

Of course, take my last point with a grain of salt please. I personally don't think we need to finish astro before rifling. I think rifles are the number 1 research priority. From the looks of the map, we can reach any place we want to settle with galleys and with the circum nav bonus, they travel as far as a normal galleon would.And we want bulb chem before SM, since we can't avoid GP if we want rifling. So we need to delay Astro until we can trade for GP.

After the GS (hopefully, it's a bit polluted) from Rostov, we must avoid to run specalists (at the cost of run citizens if needed) to let Moscow pop a GE.
I'm more and more convinced that Mining Inc is THE way to go.

unclethrill

Sep 23, 2009, 01:05 PM

I agree on Mining Inc.

So let me understand this:
1. We need to get a GS to bulb Astro before we get GP
2. We need to get GP before we finish Astro so
3. Next GS can then bulb Chem

Is that correct? I just want to be clear here because this will take a concerted effort on allplayer's part to make work correctly so we all need to be clear here.

BLubmuz

Sep 23, 2009, 01:29 PM

greatbeyond

Sep 23, 2009, 07:06 PM

Your plan looks good, STW. Be BOLD, let us meet the enemy on the battlefield of our choosing.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 23, 2009, 07:43 PM

Changes based on recent discussion will be denoted in this DarkGreen font color. These changes will usually be noted by the removal of all alternatives except the agreed upon alternative that now appears in this DarkGreen font.

Undiscussed additions or anything that may not necessarily have consensus support will appear in this DarkRed font color.

Civics: Government: Despotism; Legal: Bureaucracy; Labor: Caste System; Economy; Religion: Pacifism; 9 Wpt
Adopt Nationhood when Nationalism is acquired (traded for).

Unit Tally: Worker: 4; Explorer: 1; Macemen: 1; Pikemen: 2; Longbowmen: 5; Galley: 1; Caravel: 3; Great Merchant: 1.

Power: Gandhi/Stalin = 34/27 = 1.259 = 126%; Roosevelt/Stalin = 25/27 = 93%
Good Diplomacy with Gandhi and fair Power parity should be enough to maintain Peace, but a Power spike now from Stalin should dissuade Gandhi from seriously considering a DoW upon Stalin. Recommend Barracks in several Cities and 3-6 more units to bring Stalin to Power parity with Gandhi.

Research: Consider setting Research slider to 00% for 3-4 turns for Wealth accumulation, but we have plenty of turns of Replaceable Parts to Research now, so its really not necessary.

Research Path: Switch to Replaceable Parts; After significant Population Growth, bulb Great Merchant + verify bulb formula. Bulb Great Scientist -> Astromony (verify formula) just prior to trading for Gunpowder; When Gunpowder becomes available to trade, offer Liberalism in exchange; In case of no deal, switch to Gunpowder until deal becomes possible; switch back to Replaceable Parts.
Complete Replaceable Parts; Do not complete Astronomy until GS bulbs Chemistry.

Other Trades: Trade Liberalism to several AI Civs for about 300 Wealth Total.
Trade for Nationalism to adopt Nationhood for Favorite Civic status with Churchill and De Gaulle.

Moscow: 1F1H -> 3F1C; 4H1C -> 2F2C +9 Fpt for 4t -> 10P; 14 Hpt x 1.75 = 24 Hpt; Add 2F2C in 1t; In 4t, 1 Eng-2H + Max. Sci-3B + Max. Hammer Tiles
Builds: Library (1t), Work Boat (2t + 10H OF), Work Boat (1t), Settler (6t+3t next TS)

St. Petersburg: Shifting from minor Great Scientist Farm to more Military City; no Citizen shifting needed; keep pure 2 Sci-3B.
Builds: Barracks (3t ~8H OF); Crossbowman (1t ~13H OF); Pikeman (5t); Islamic Missionary (1t + 5t next TS)
Worker 4: Move 1-S & 3-E, build GH Mine 1-E of St. Petersburg (6t); Move 1-NE, build GH Mine 1-E of St. Petersburg (4t + 2t next TS)
Worker 2: Move 1-SE, start Road (2t) and Horse Pasture 2-SE of Novgorod(6t); move 3-W; help with Floodplains Farm 2-N & 1-W.

Novgorod: Shifting to Islamic Missionary Building City; maintain growth till 5P; then shift to higher hammer tiles to build faster.
Builds: Maceman (1t 3H OF); Islamic Monastery (17t or maybe add 5 Hpt by Farming Fp + working 2H + 1F1H4C or building Workshop)
Worker 1: Move 1-NW, build Workshop 1-SE of Novgorod (9t); start Floodplains Farm 2-N of Novgorod (1t + 7t next TS).

Rostov: Add more Sci-3B as population increases
Builds: Library (5t); Market (101t or build 3 1F3H Mines in nearby hills to help built it faster).
Worker 3: Complete Road (1t); build Mine 1-E of Rostov(6t); move 1-NW; build Mine 1-N of Rostov(3t + 3t next TS);

Military Units: new and free military units move into St. Petersburg for defense against Gandhi.

Naval Units: Promotions Combat 1; Caravel with 5 XP Combat 1 & Medic; Damaged naval units heal in Shore Tile first;
2 Caravels on east coast will #1 defend that area and also scout outside of Barbarian visibility if possible, ending turns on Shore Tile for +10% Defense against attack.
Caravel near Sugar Island will explore Island to its SW after healing.
Galley will stay in Moscow or later in TS be sent toward next City Site.

Explorer will stay on Sugar Island to fog bust.

National Epic: We will start building this in Rostov soon. Starting to build GH Mines and Grassland Workshop in preparation.

Espionage: 4 Ept on Mao ZeDong for 10t (full TS).

Great Engineer: Save any Great Engineer for Mining, Inc. although the Technologies of Corporation and Railroad needed to build Mining, Inc. via a GE are far off. It may be better to use any Great Engineer generated now for some other purpose, but GE are hard to generate until Iron Works or Assembly Line.

We will keep Research at 50% average and preferably higher and keep bulbing like crazy and build Markets/Banks to keep the Economy going!

I'll be starting the TS in about 45 minutes. I'll be going though the TS at a slow deliberate pace, mainly to check every turn for possible trading advantages. It will take me a couple of hours and I will check for last minute feedback every so often during the TS, so do not hesitate to respond.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 23, 2009, 10:22 PM

Roosevelt is the only AI Civ to have completed Economics.

Economics is a somewhat small Technology, so I'm tempted to give in for +1 Dipl rather than -1 Dipl for declining, despite the lost of cash or barter value that the Technology this would otherwise provide.

Mao Zedong at -1 Dipl now would go to 0 Dipl or -2 Dipl, depending on our answer.

Sun Tzu Wu

Mesix

Sep 23, 2009, 11:27 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 23, 2009, 11:41 PM

I would error on the side of caution and get the best diplo possible. We can't lay the smack down until after we tech Fission, so it is best to keep all the AI players on their best behavior for the near term.

Thank you Mesix for your well reasoned opinion on this issue and your timely response!

I decided to give in to Mao Zedong's demand of Economics. We got +1 Dipl for tribute and +3 Dipl for trading relations. We're now at +3 Diplomacy with Mao Zedong.

Given Mao is our second closest neighbor, we want good relations with him, especially since his Espionage level is 97 and ours is nearly 0. I suspect that Mao may have had the Military to back an invasion. Oops, I forgot that he has no viable Port Cities to attack from. Oh well, +3 Dipl is good to have anyway.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 24, 2009, 12:51 AM

I don't think that we need more troops out of SP after the CB. I think G will declare with or without and we have enough right now to hold him off.

We also need to think about getting some settlers out of Rostov after the lib and it hits it's HC. (after your TS)

We need 3 more cities (maybe 4) and that needs to happen in the next 30 turns.

Can't wait to see how your TS turns out!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 24, 2009, 01:55 AM

A lone Maceman is moving toward Novgorod, so a unit (probably a Crossbowman or Maceman) in St. Petersburg can be pulled out to help defend Novgorod.

Left Caravels off East Coast with full movement, in case anyone thinks they should be moved somewhere I may not have done.

Verified following formulas:

GS bulb = 2250 + 4.5 * <Total Civ Pop> Beakers.

Other GP bulb = 1500 + 3 * <Total Civ Pop> Beakers.

There are less than 10 turns Research left on each of Gunpowder, Replaceable Parts and Astronomy.

There is a GS from Rostov 1-SW of Moscow; don't bulb him until Gunpowder is traded for/completed.

Before the War, I was able to trade Liberalism for a total of 310 Wealth with Roosevelt, Gandhi and Churchill. Better relations with Churchill allowed OB with him too.

We are down to an Average of 40% on the Research slider at best. Pacifism and a standing Military are costing us 14 Wpt; there are other mounting expenses; we need Markets and Banks (maybe Banks first).

Assigned Citizens in St. Petersburg to Hammer Tiles to complete Pikeman in 1t at a -5F loss; be sure to reassign next turn for 0 Fpt or better.

Please see attached logs below. I'll have more detail later.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 24, 2009, 01:56 AM

The main reason to set research to 0 for some 3 turns is let Moscow and Rostov complete or almost complete the library before set to 100.

No! Economics is too much for good relations with a ballbreaker like Mao.
He and DeGaulle will continuosly ask for something. If resources or WM, OK else, f**k them. This is not a diplo game. No,
no techs to anyone.
Want they attack? Go on, they will find some surprise soon. And we can pillage them to the stone age. (well, when we'll have rifles... ehm). In addition, Mao is the worst anemy of an half of the world, so if you give in to his demands you lose points with others.

The explorer will stay on sugar.
Once healed and promoted to C1 the caravel can scout that sector, then the other big black.

Again... to read an autolog the only way is to post it, dammit :mad:
Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 70/473 (1635 AD) [23-Sep-2009 21:24:38]
Caravel 3 (Moscow) promoted: Combat I
Caravel 11 (Moscow) promoted: Medic I
100% Research: 87 per turn
0% Culture: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -35 per turn, 43 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Crossbowman
Novgorod finishes: Maceman

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 71/473 (1640 AD) [23-Sep-2009 21:49:46]
St. Petersburg begins: Barracks (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Library (6 turns)
A Camp was built near Novgorod
Caravel 14 (Moscow) promoted: Combat I
0% Research: 17 per turn
0% Culture: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 30 per turn, 8 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 9

Turn 72/473 (1645 AD) [23-Sep-2009 22:05:00]
Research begun: Replaceable Parts (130 Turns)
0% Research: 17 per turn
0% Culture: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 29 per turn, 38 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Barracks
Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) born in St. Petersburg
Novgorod grows to size 5
Rostov grows to size 8

Turn 73/473 (1650 AD) [23-Sep-2009 22:22:21]
St. Petersburg begins: Pikeman (6 turns)
100% Research: 92 per turn
0% Culture: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -45 per turn, 67 in the bank

Turn 74/473 (1655 AD) [23-Sep-2009 22:44:22]
0% Research: 13 per turn
0% Culture: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 30 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Library
Rostov grows to size 9
Rostov finishes: Library

Turn 75/473 (1660 AD) [23-Sep-2009 23:10:51]
Diplomacy (Tribute Demand): Mao Zedong (China) demands that Stalin (Russia) gives Economics; Stalin AGREES.
Tech traded to Mao Zedong (China): Economics
Rostov begins: Market (41 turns)
Moscow begins: Work Boat (2 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Islamic Missionary (11 turns)
Rostov begins: Settler (86 turns)
Rostov begins: Market (101 turns)
Rostov begins: National Epic (113 turns)
Rostov begins: Market (101 turns)
Research begun: Gunpowder (8 Turns)
Research begun: Astronomy (26 Turns)
Research begun: Replaceable Parts (8 Turns)
100% Research: 114 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -43 per turn, 52 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 76/473 (1665 AD) [24-Sep-2009 00:43:02]
Moscow begins: Work Boat (2 turns)
Tech traded to Churchill (England): Liberalism
Tech traded to Gandhi (India): Liberalism
Tech traded to Roosevelt (America): Liberalism
A Pasture was built near St. Petersburg
A Mine was built near St. Petersburg
100% Research: 119 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -44 per turn, 319 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 77/473 (1670 AD) [24-Sep-2009 01:15:20]
Moscow begins: Bank (9 turns)
Moscow begins: Market (7 turns)
A Mine was built near Rostov
100% Research: 119 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -47 per turn, 275 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 10
St. Petersburg grows to size 8

Other Player Actions:
Gandhi (India) declares war on Stalin (Russia)
Attitude Change: Gandhi (India) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 78/473 (1675 AD) [24-Sep-2009 01:33:22]
Diplomacy: Roosevelt (America) offers to trade World Map to Stalin (Russia) for World Map
St. Petersburg begins: Pikeman (5 turns)
Moscow begins: Settler (7 turns)
Moscow begins: Pikeman (3 turns)
100% Research: 108 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -47 per turn, 233 in the bank

After End Turn:
Alhazen (Great Scientist) born in Rostov

Turn 79/473 (1680 AD) [24-Sep-2009 01:56:48]
Pikeman 1 promoted: Combat II
Pikeman 2 promoted: Combat II
A Fishing Boats was built near Rostov
A Fishing Boats was built near Rostov
100% Research: 111 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -43 per turn, 186 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rostov grows to size 10

Other Player Actions:
A Mine was destroyed near St. Petersburg
STW are you goin' crazy? You gifted Econ to Mao and almost gifted Liberalism to 3 AIs? I never agreed on this absurdity. We spent dozen turns researching and now we sell it for nothing? Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Goodbye GP in trade, what can we offer? We do not care good relations: we have to nuke them all.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 24, 2009, 02:13 AM

No! Economics is too much for good relations with a ballbreaker like Mao.
He and DeGaulle will continuosly ask for something. If resources or WM, OK else, f**k them. This is not a diplo game. No,
no techs to anyone.
Want they attack? Go on, they will find some surprise soon. And we can pillage them to the stone age. (well, when we'll have rifles... ehm). In addition, Mao is the worst anemy of an half of the world, so if you give in to his demands you lose points with others.

I didn't think it wise to reject Mao's demand for Economics which Roosevelt had already completed, especially when we were expecting a full scale War from Gandhi. Mao seemed too close to Rostov and we would have trouble defending it in a War against Mao. Mao didn't have viable nearby Ports to attack us from, but he might now have such a Port. Also, we had no idea what Mao's Power rating to judge whether or not he is bluffing.

I'm sorry you are not happy with my decision to accept Mao's demand of Economics.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 24, 2009, 02:22 AM

Again... to read an autolog the only way is to post it, dammit :mad:

Please explain.

STW are you goin' crazy? You gifted Econ to Mao and almost gifted Liberalism to 3 AIs? I never agreed on this absurdity. We spent dozen turns researching and now we sell it for nothing? Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Goodbye GP in trade, what can we offer? We do not care good relations: we have to nuke them all.

It was discussed and I put it in my revised PPP. We need to do something finance our current research; we are down below 40% average Research slider.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 24, 2009, 02:32 AM

I didn't think it wise to reject Mao's demand for Economics which Roosevelt had already completed, especially when we were expecting a full scale War from Gandhi. Mao seemed too close to Rostov and we would have trouble defending it in a War against Mao. Mao didn't have viable nearby Ports to attack us from, but he might now have such a Port. Also, we had no idea what Mao's Power rating to judge whether or not he is bluffing.

I'm sorry you are not happy with my decision to accept Mao's demand of Economics.

Sun Tzu WuI don't care to be wise. And we gained only with Mao and lose with dG and Chur.

Please explain.

It's impossible read an autolog in txt format. That's why for my solo games i use the html option. The only way to read an autolog with forum tags is to post it.

It was discussed and I put it in my revised PPP. We need to do something finance our current research; we are down below 40% average Research slider.

Sun Tzu WuYour revised PPP was posted at 3:43 AM (my time) so, how can i give it an answer?
If you has doubts you would have waited for answers. This is an important and never posted before argument, so you took a decision without actually consult the team.
But i disagree completely: you sold a 2116 tech for 1/20 of his value to help research for few turns. Absurd, never seen before. Along with another tech (Econ or else) it would have been a good trade option. Now it's gone.

This is the rule from now on:
- NO tech sold for less than 75% of their value.
- NEVER give in to tech demands.

BLubmuz

Sep 24, 2009, 03:35 AM

I got the save open, to analyze STW TS.
Along with the analysis, i post also my PPP

Moscow:
finish settler (4) settler, finish market.
Rostov:
continue market - when a hill is improved, fire a sci and work it. I'm also thinking to put a Eng at work there. It will not only help production, but one more GE is always welcome.
StPete:
finish Pike (1), WE, missionary, market
Novo:
finish monastery (5), missionary, CH (finish)

War: I think all our units will survive the poor stack G sent to us. We have counters for any of his units. After the stack will suicide, i'd like to send a pillage party formed by mace+Xbow+WE to keep stacked and pillage the possible, even roads.
I'll move the 3XP mace to Novo to help there.

If we have some unit left i use them for the new cities, otherwise i'll change some production to LB.

First settler will go to the red spot, second to the blue. To do this i'll move the galley and a protective unit to gain time and send later worker+missionary.

The Explorer will stay on sugar island.
The caravel around there will go W of Boston to finish scout that area.

Research: RP is due in 3 and i'll keep 100% 'til there, then i'll be forced to set to 0 for awhile. I will put those turns on GP, then Astro when i can raise again the slider.
I think we can't trade for GP. We have nothing to offer, thanks to STW unauthorized trades. :mad:

Workers:
once finished the mine near StPete one can go to chop that last forest.
the other one can road to the blue site.
The one near Rostov will be busy all my TS mining the 2 hills and roading the second.
The one now building a WS will be loade in the galley once the city will be settled and replaced by a new one, sooner or later.

edit: settlers from Rostov.
I verified this option and with 1 eng at work it needs 18 turns. Now we need the market to increase the happiness, but we can consider to build a couple workers there. A worker will need only 5 turns.

greatbeyond

Sep 24, 2009, 08:33 PM

Some scattered thoughts in no particular order

Lib trade:
This is a pointer to the reply where UT first proposed the idea. There weren't any negative comments about it from anyone.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8486423&postcount=608
While I would have liked a little more cash, I know from my TS that the AI will not value what we have very highly. I think it is important to keep research going.

Trades only for 75% of tech value: In my tests, they only were willing to pay roughly 50% in combined cash and techs. Especially if I was way ahead of them.

Economics: Yes, I was incommunicado too when STW posted. However, after thinking about it, I probably would have done the same thing. If it was just a GOTM I might have been tempted to refuse. Mao would DOW shortly later and especially after G DOWs. The others would make demands and would not fight for us unless we gave them a tech. Degaulle certainly would make demands and because of his world position and ranking we could refuse. Churchill and Roosevelt would be the ones I would worry about the most.

If G can't/doesn't bribe anyone in against us, we can build up our unit experience getting ready for the lands to the north. He will definitely have more units than what he sent. It was one thing I noticed in my tests.

I don't believe G has Horses nor can he trade for them. If not, we won't need many Pikes.

Keep 1 Caravel between us and Mao. Perhaps we can see if he, or anyone else, decides to launch a fleet at us. Remember, he doesn't have to have a nearby port. He can build his ships and units and stockpile them in the closest port.

We need to emphasize our GP production. Now is when they'll do us the most good.

Blubmuz's PPP - Most looks good.

I would use any chop toward Settlers only. (Even in St Pete)
St Pete needs to pump out a few more units, (Novgorod can build the missionaries.) Let's ensure our survival before worrying about much else.

Demands - What will you agree to?
Trades - Can we get any resource trades? What do we agree to?
Bribing Allies - I don't think this is needed. I don't see G having much to pay and we will be pillaging his lands.
(A moderate source of income for us)
What will we take for peace? Do we hold out for more than he has or settle at the first chance?

Research path sounds good - I think you will find we'll be able to trade for GP after just a few turns. The AI doesn't seem to value it as much as we do. I think they usually just look at the Beaker cost.

I'll be away from my PC, from after this post until Monday night, but should be able to read and post some.

We'll razz you later if things don't turn out so good!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 24, 2009, 08:43 PM

Your revised PPP was posted at 3:43 AM (my time) so, how can i give it an answer?
If you has doubts you would have waited for answers. This is an important and never posted before argument, so you took a decision without actually consult the team.

The revised PPP removed alternatives that the team decided not to pursue, added clarification and some changes so minor that most PPP's wouldn't even include them. It also included some new ideas such as trading Liberalism for some Wealth that would alow us to run 100% Research for several turns:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8486281&postcount=604

Blubmuz, you are not shy about blasting ideas you think are bad, but you made no comment on above idea expressed in the above post. You even quoted this post, but said nothing about trading Liberalism for 350 Wealth being either good or bad. I got 310 Wealth from the dead-end Liberalism Technology which I thought was quite good, given the limited amounts of Wealth the AIs have been keeping on hand.

I mistakenly thought unclethrill was supporting this idea quite strongly. However, I put into my revised PPP as though it had his full support; the idea had my full support and I didn't think there was much to discuss. None of the other team members had any opinion, one way or the other.

But i disagree completely: you sold a 2116 tech for 1/20 of his value to help research for few turns. Absurd, never seen before. Along with another tech (Econ or else) it would have been a good trade option. Now it's gone.

The value of a thing is what the purchaser will pay for it. All the AIs together had at most a total of 400 Wealth. The AI will never pay a full 1 Wealth for 1 Beaker of a Technology. I doubt one would ever get more than 1 Beaker for 2 Wealth and more likely 1 Beaker for 3-4 Wealth. To make up for this bias, one can trade the same Technology to several AIs in the same turn, before they can trade it to each other. Ideally, we'd like to get 500 Wealth from each of 4-5 AIs for a 2116 Beaker Technology, but that is simply not possible yet.

Trading Liberalism to the AIs also allows them to run Free Religion or Free Speech, both of which are good for us, since the AI are as a result likely to pursue a Space Colony or Cultural goal as opposed to Military goals, even though they have no possibility of Winning via Space or Culture.

This is the rule from now on:
- NO tech sold for less than 75% of their value.
- NEVER give in to tech demands.

We will be lucky to get even 25% * X Wealth for a X Beaker Technology.

Technologies in trade to the AI are worth far more, but usually one can't get more than 1/2 to 2/3 the value of a Technology for another Technology.

Worst of all, we are unlikely to have much success with such an inflexible and in regard to getting 75% of a Technology's value unrealistic rule.

With such a rule, it is quite likely that we will never get any trades with the AIs, while the AI's work on different Technology paths and trade to each other.

I still get the feeling that we are rushing through the Turn Sets unnecessarily. When I suggested pausing the game for 24-48 hours for an unexpected event, you said don't using the example of Gandhi declaring War. Gandhi declaring War wasn't at all what I meant.

In my opinion, we should have a draft PPP and a final (revised) PPP that everyone (except absent members) approves, before the player on deck starts. All the ideas of the PPP should appear in a single final post of the PPP so it is clear for everyone; the PPP should not be a post that says its the PPP, followed by several discussion posts; its not enough that the player on deck or the leader understands; everyone must understand. Perhaps, it would help our Game Play.

Finally, I apologize for my performance on the past Turn Set. I also forgot to set Espionage to 4 Ept versus Mao until turn 75. I forgot to change the builds in Moscow and St. Petersburg on turn 70. I thought that was my worst mistake, but evidently giving in to Mao Zedong's demand of Economics and trading Liberalism for a total of 310 Wealth + 2 World Maps and Open Borders with Churchill was a far more grave mistake.

However, I do not concede the point the giving in to Mao's demand for Economics was such a bad mistake. Mao now has a Port City Xian that is within easy striking range of Rostov or even Moscow and could possibly have a Galley or two full units ready to attack. Most importantly we have no idea what Mao's Power rating is; both Beijing and Shanghai have many high Hammer Tiles and the Population to work them. While its true that we could easily defeat both Gandhi and Mao, we have to increase our Military to do so and the additional units to conduct two Wars on two fronts would cause high Military maintenance due primarily to Pacifism's 1 Wpt per Military Unit cost. Worse, with two AIs at War with us, the others might pile on and our Research slider could easily drop below 0. Even though we could prevail in an early War against Gandhi and Mao and perhaps others, it may cost us less to give (or nearly give away) a Technology to each AI for the positive Diplomatic effect to avoid the possibility of multiple Wars.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 24, 2009, 10:53 PM

StPete:
finish Pike (1), WE, missionary, market

Horse is connected, so a Knight would allow a 2 MP pillaging unit in place of a War Elephant, but a Pikeman would have to be added to the pillaging stack to defend against Gandhi's War Elephants. St. Petersburg now has plenty of improved Hammer tiles (plus another GH Mine in 1t), so a Knight could be built in as little as 5t.

Novo:
finish monastery (5), missionary, CH (finish)

The effect of the Courthouse is +2.55 Wpt savings and +2 Ept. Although I agree that a Courthouse is a sensible build here (whenever the supply of Missionaries is sufficient), maybe there is something better to build? A Library would provide 3 Bpt via its +25%, but only while Research is 100% and we don't really have a reliable way to do this 100% of all turns. Assuming we still plan to build Oxford University, we may need to build a Library and University in City whose Commerce and Scientist potential don't justify it alone.

War: I think all our units will survive the poor stack G sent to us. We have counters for any of his units. After the stack will suicide, i'd like to send a pillage party formed by mace+Xbow+WE to keep stacked and pillage the possible, even roads.
I'll move the 3XP mace to Novo to help there.

I'll just mention again that I'd prefer a Knight and Pikeman to a War Elephant in the stack. I'd put a Maceman, Crossbowman, Pikeman and Knight in the Pillaging Stack. Gandhi will find it even more difficult to attack and it can pillage every turn in Gandhi's territory.

If we have some unit left i use them for the new cities, otherwise i'll change some production to LB.

Let's try to build just one Longbowman per City plus 1-2 extras for hot spots like St. Petersburg. We are already paying 14 Wpt in just Pacifism related Military unit maintenance.

First settler will go to the red spot, second to the blue. To do this i'll move the galley and a protective unit to gain time and send later worker+missionary.

Agreed. We need to keep our distance maintenance as low as possible for as long as possible, at least long enough to build a Bank in Moscow and other high Commerce Cities if possible.

The Explorer will stay on sugar island.
The caravel around there will go W of Boston to finish scout that area.

I kept the Explorer moving in a 3t cycle of 1-SE, 1-NE; 1-SW, 1-SW; 1-NE, 1-NW which allowed it to fog bust (see) every Tile of Sugar Island at least once per cycle.

Perhaps you meant E of Boston? Taking a long NW voyage?

Research: RP is due in 3 and i'll keep 100% 'til there, then i'll be forced to set to 0 for awhile. I will put those turns on GP, then Astro when i can raise again the slider.
I think we can't trade for GP. We have nothing to offer, thanks to STW unauthorized trades. :mad:

The 310 Wealth I traded for will have allowed us to Research at 100% for a full 8 turns at well over 100 Bpt.

Since you even quoted the first post regarding the trading of Wealth for Liberalism about 7 hours before my revised PPP, I don't consider your characterization of it being "unauthorized" entirely fair. You saw that plan early enough to object and yet you said nothing regarding it.

It may still be possible to trade for Gunpowder, but probably not via De Gaulle soon enough. No one else has Gunpowder yet and maybe they won't have it soon enough either. Some of the AIs still don't have either Liberalism or Economics, so when another AI gets Gunpowder, we may yet have a chance to trade for it.

Workers:
once finished the mine near StPete one can go to chop that last forest.
the other one can road to the blue site.
The one near Rostov will be busy all my TS mining the 2 hills and roading the second.
The one now building a WS will be loade in the galley once the city will be settled and replaced by a new one, sooner or later.

There are three Forests in St. Petersburg; which one will be chopped?

Will the Workshop be completed or interrupted at some point?

edit: settlers from Rostov.
I verified this option and with 1 eng at work it needs 18 turns. Now we need the market to increase the happiness, but we can consider to build a couple workers there. A worker will need only 5 turns.

Sounds good. Rostov will be at Happiness Cap next turn. We need the Settler and Workers too.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 25, 2009, 12:26 AM

Keep 1 Caravel between us and Mao. Perhaps we can see if he, or anyone else, decides to launch a fleet at us. Remember, he doesn't have to have a nearby port. He can build his ships and units and stockpile them in the closest port.

Although, I wouldn't expect Mao to attack us after agreeing to his demands, we probably should divert a Caravel to scan his Coasts and Port Cities.

Perhaps, we should visit all the AIs via a Caravel to see what's near their Coast and in their Port Cities.

We need to emphasize our GP production. Now is when they'll do us the most good.

This is a critical part of our strategy. Great People keep costing more and more GPPs. Hopefully our Great Person generation will not stall prior to completing Rocketry. Note that Artillery and Rocketry are not bulbable.

I would use any chop toward Settlers only. (Even in St Pete)

This is especially true for St. Petersburg which now has plenty of high Hammer Tiles to work and easily build anything it needs, like a Market and a University.

I would let St. Petersburg grow starting with turn 81 while it builds a mounted unit. Maybe it could be near Happiness Cap after building the mounted unit.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 25, 2009, 03:32 AM

True. I quoted UT who was posting this option to sell Lib. But along with the option he said there's a downside.

You not included it in your PPP and your revised PPP can't be seen in Europe at least for 6 hours. In fact not me or UT have reply to that until too late. You posted the revised PPP and played some 4-5 hours later. And you posted a revised PPP with for the first time you mentioned this option announcing you was playing in 45 minutes.I'll be starting the TS in about 45 minutes. I'll be going though the TS at a slow deliberate pace, mainly to check every turn for possible trading advantages. It will take me a couple of hours and I will check for last minute feedback every so often during the TS, so do not hesitate to respond.Even if it was posted in a decent time how can you have a feedback in 45 minutes? Important variations on a PPP require at least 12 hours before you play.

I know you can't sell a tech for it's entire value in gold (considerig the entire value what the AI evaluates it, thus the 80% of what we do). Of course i meant tech+gold.
I sell for small cash only obsolete techs to backwards opponents, not a freshly researched tech.
Better sacrifice some turn of research that a potential trade opportunity.
Better the chicken tomorrow than the egg today.
And if the egg stays an egg, well, we can always sell it tomorrow.

What can we offer now for GP? RP? No, hell i'd prefer to research it myself.
Economics? Roos has it on its own, you gave it to Mao (what we care if he declares?) dG maybe? Let's hope.

BLubmuz

Sep 25, 2009, 04:44 AM

Your comments on my PPP:
I think a small pillaging stack with WE+Xbow+Mace is better covered than a Knight+Pike+Mace, even if this last can be faster. But i can consider this if it can be completed at the same time.

Yes, for the scouting caravel i meant E of Boston. I'll keep the explorer moving.

The variations on the city queues are only for Rostow, where i'll switch to a worker, maybe 2, depends on when the mines will be completed. Also i'll hire an Eng there instead of a Sci.

Yes, the worker now building a WS will be stopped and replaced later.

For more units, you said exactly what i did: after the WE or the Knight in StPete, i'll stop if i can. The "if" is due to a fight we have to afford once G attacks and its results.
If his stack will suicide and we'll report no losses and his Mace heading for Novo will be "cured" by the one i'll move there, there's no need for more units, otherwise i'll see for the best.

No more variations and clarifications, i think. I can play in 10 hours from now, or tomorrow if UT has some major variation to propose.

It's almost a rule for me: before hit enter, i make a tour of the cities to verify the worked tiles and specialists, to finish with an F4 for resources and techs. I've seen nothing in the save, so i can't say more.

unclethrill

Sep 25, 2009, 07:07 AM

unclethrill

Sep 25, 2009, 07:15 AM

As far as the "breakneck speed" goes, we have about 10 weeks to finish this game. With a conservative guess that we finish around T380 (I think that is overly optimistic), we still have 300 turns left. At 10 turns per set, that's 30 TS left. So by my calculations, that's 3 TS per week, if we want to finish on time. Based on this , the 24/72 is still too slow. We need to knock out a TS every 2-3 days consistently.

BLubmuz

Sep 25, 2009, 08:12 AM

BLubz: Everything looks in order for your TS. The only thing I wish to voice is to be careful prolonging the war with G. Pillaging his land will help but getting peace and getting on with our plan is important to so don't drag it out too long.

As far as STW's TS goes. I wouldn't have given away Econ for purely political reasons based on the fact that I sold Edu to G (after 3 others already had it as we all discussed) and he still DoW'ed 9 turns later. Also, as I said in my post the downside of selling Lib is that we now have nothing to trade for GP. But as the old saying goes, no use crying over spilt milk. Whether those choices were good or bad, they are over now so we need to make the best of them and push forward.In fact, when i quoted your post you showed the chance to do this and its downsides.
It wasn't a suggestion, just a choice we could have discussed, so i didn't care it, since yourself seemed to discarded it. But you're right about the milk. Go on.
My pillage activity can cease next TS, unless G offers a great deal for peace. First, he won't probably talk for some 7-8 turns, second, i'm also looking for some safe fight to gain GG points and maybe the HE.
As far as the "breakneck speed" goes, we have about 10 weeks to finish this game. With a conservative guess that we finish around T380 (I think that is overly optimistic), we still have 300 turns left. At 10 turns per set, that's 30 TS left. So by my calculations, that's 3 TS per week, if we want to finish on time. Based on this , the 24/72 is still too slow. We need to knock out a TS every 2-3 days consistently.Those calculation are realistic and even optimistic, as you said.
It's why we need to procede fast. Our PPPs should look like mine: enough details, but not all. We passed the phase when every worker move is precious and every commerce or beaker is precious. Still valuable, but surely not game breaking like in the first TSs.
Also when the war will start (the nuclear war, our war) it will became impossible make perfect PPPs, since most will involve the RNG.
So, we need to focus on the main target, which now is: settle as fast as we can to avoid to build too many nukes. At all costs, even paying in research.
To lose some turn of research now can guarantee a faster finish later.

This game is divided in 2 distinct phases:
1) a peaceful (when possible) expansion grabbing spots the AI can settle and trying to research at best compatible with this expansion, which will have high maintenance costs and consequent negative impact on research.
This expansion needs to be sustained also by a good army, due to the "Aggressive AI" and the most of our research will be assured by GSs, so definitely a Specialist Economy.
2) an almost "Always War" phase, conditioned by the expensiveness of the ICBMs and when the SDI will arrive in play also by their luck.
This 2nd phase will not shut off the research, since we'll need a strong army to protect our coasts and our cities, and i suspect we can't afford more than the required 1-city-1successful-nuke.
We need also a very high production and only Mining Inc can guarantee an help. Unfortunately most of our cities (only one at present and i can't see more in future) will not accede to the levees, very good to boost production. This Warring phase will take a lot of time in preparation:
- build the Manhattan, expensive and not rushable, it's a Project
- build at least 4 nukes to launch on the first target
Keep the research high will guarantee also to arrive to Ecology, to clean the fallout and to avoid or relent the Global Warming

I'm not a fan of the Tac Nukes, due to their very limited range. you can do almost nothing with them unless you can carry in a submarine. But the submarine needs escorts and they can be carried only in port, not like the fighters in carriers which can be loaded also in trip.

To have a sensation of a modern warfare, you can try the "next War" mod, included in BtS. It's also fun. Mainly if you play as "Southern" with some tweaks to the map :p

BLubmuz

Sep 25, 2009, 04:11 PM

TS played. Seen the observations on the estimated finish date and the Epic speed, I decided to extend my TS to 12 turns and this will be applied to anyone from now on.

Another reason was that i was trying a worker stealin to the barbs, but unfortunately they eliminated the LB i sent with a damn mace... not great luck on fights, i should have lost my touch :( 2 workers was a nice plunder, if successful.

well, the autolog.Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 80/473 (1685 AD) [25-Sep-2009 22:50:16]
Rostov begins: Worker (5 turns)
100% Research: 110 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -44 per turn, 143 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Pikeman

Turn 81/473 (1690 AD) [25-Sep-2009 22:55:43]
St. Petersburg begins: War Elephant (4 turns)
A Mine was built near St. Petersburg
100% Research: 111 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -47 per turn, 99 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Russian territory at St. Petersburg, Pikeman 1 (3.60/6) defeats Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 82.0%)
While defending in Russian territory at St. Petersburg, Pikeman 2 (2.64/6) defeats Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 82.0%)
While defending in Russian territory at St. Petersburg, Pikeman 19 (St. Petersburg) (4.98/6) defeats Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 77.5%)
While defending in Russian territory at St. Petersburg, Longbow 3 (2.46/6) defeats Indian Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 77.7%)
Attitude Change: Gandhi (India) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 82/473 (1695 AD) [25-Sep-2009 22:58:36]
100% Research: 112 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -47 per turn, 52 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Replaceable Parts

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 83/473 (1700 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:05:58]
Research begun: Astronomy (5 Turns)
100% Research: 112 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -47 per turn, 5 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Settler
Novgorod grows to size 6

Turn 84/473 (1702 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:07:49]
Moscow begins: Settler (9 turns)
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Culture: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 33 per turn, 6 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: War Elephant
Novgorod finishes: Islamic Monastery
Rostov finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
While defending just off shore, Caravel 14 (Moscow) (2.55/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 97.0%)

Turn 85/473 (1704 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:09:54]
Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Churchill (England) asks Stalin (Russia) to stop trading with De Gaulle (France); Stalin REFUSES.
Novgorod begins: Courthouse (25 turns)
War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) promoted: Combat I
While attacking, Caravel 3 (Moscow) escapes from Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.7%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near Parthian, Caravel 3 (Moscow) loses to Barbarian Galley (0.62/2) (Prob Victory: 79.7%)
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Culture: 20 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 30 per turn, 39 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Islamic Missionary

Turn 86/473 (1706 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:12:45]
St. Petersburg begins: Knight (6 turns)
A Mine was built near Rostov
Rostov begins: Worker (4 turns)
Yaroslavl' founded
Yaroslavl' begins: Courthouse (162 turns)
While attacking, Caravel 11 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking just off shore, Caravel 11 (Moscow) (3.00/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
0% Research: 13 per turn
0% Culture: 28 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 31 per turn, 69 in the bank

Turn 87/473 (1708 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:17:05]
Diplomacy: Mao Zedong (China) offers to trade World Map to Stalin (Russia) for World Map
While attacking, Pikeman 1 escapes from Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 87.8%)
While attacking in Russian territory near St. Petersburg, Pikeman 1 loses to Indian War Elephant (4.32/8) (Prob Victory: 87.8%)
While attacking, War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) decimates Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 88.8%)
While attacking in Russian territory at St. Petersburg, War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) (4.80/8) defeats Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 88.8%)
0% Research: 13 per turn
0% Culture: 28 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 34 per turn, 110 in the bank

After End Turn:
Yaroslavl''s borders expand

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Russian territory at St. Petersburg, Crossbowman 15 (St. Petersburg) (2.94/6) defeats Indian Maceman (Prob Victory: 82.7%)
While defending just off shore, Caravel 14 (Moscow) (2.10/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 97.0%)

Turn 88/473 (1710 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:19:36]
Islam has spread: Yaroslavl'
While attacking, Pikeman 2 decimates Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 95.8%)
While attacking in Russian territory at St. Petersburg, Pikeman 2 (4.20/6) defeats Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 95.8%)
War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) promoted: Medic I
0% Research: 11 per turn
0% Culture: 21 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 36 per turn, 144 in the bank

Turn 89/473 (1712 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:23:30]
A Mine was built near Rostov
0% Research: 11 per turn
0% Culture: 21 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 36 per turn, 180 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rostov finishes: Worker

Turn 90/473 (1714 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:25:10]
100% Research: 124 per turn
0% Culture: 21 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -59 per turn, 216 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 91/473 (1716 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:42:01]
While attacking in Barbarian territory near Parthian, Longbow 3 (6.00/6) defeats Barbarian Worker (Prob Victory: 95.8%)
Stalin (Russia) and Gandhi (India) have signed a peace treaty
St. Petersburg begins: Islamic Missionary (3 turns)
100% Research: 124 per turn
0% Culture: 21 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -64 per turn, 242 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Barbarian territory at Parthian, Longbow 3 loses to Barbarian Maceman (5.44/8) (Prob Victory: 13.4%)
Attitude Change: Gandhi (India) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'

Turn 92/473 (1718 AD) [25-Sep-2009 23:45:45]
Yekaterinburg founded
Yekaterinburg begins: Library (21 turns)
and the save

The in-game log Here is your Session Turn Log from 1685 AD to 1718 AD:

Turn 357, 1685 AD: You have trained a Pikeman in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on Islamic Missionary.

Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Trebuchet (4.00) vs Stalin's Longbow 5 (Longbowman) (4.22)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Combat Odds: 53.8%
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Plot Defense: +8%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (City Attack: -120%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Longbow 5 (Longbowman) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Trebuchet is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Trebuchet is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Longbow 5 (Longbowman) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Longbow 5 (Longbowman) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant (9.60) vs Stalin's Pikeman 1 (13.96)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Combat Odds: 18.0%
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Plot Defense: +8%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (76/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (60/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant (9.60) vs Stalin's Pikeman 2 (13.96)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Combat Odds: 18.0%
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Plot Defense: +8%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 is hit for 16 (76/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 is hit for 16 (60/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 is hit for 16 (44/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant (8.80) vs Stalin's Pikeman 19 (St. Petersburg) (11.58)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Combat Odds: 22.5%
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Plot Defense: +8%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 19 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 19 (St. Petersburg) has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Crossbowman (6.60) vs Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) (8.72)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Combat Odds: 22.3%
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Plot Defense: +8%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Crossbowman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 17 (75/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Crossbowman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Crossbowman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 17 (58/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Crossbowman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 17 (41/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Gandhi's Crossbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 358, 1690 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) has defeated Gandhi's Crossbowman!

Turn 359, 1695 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!

Turn 360, 1700 AD: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Market.

Turn 361, 1702 AD: You have trained a War Elephant in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on Islamic Missionary.
Turn 361, 1702 AD: You have trained a Worker in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) (3.60)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Combat Odds: 3.0%
Turn 361, 1702 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1702 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 362, 1704 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) (3.30) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 362, 1704 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Barbarian's Galley has defeated Stalin's Caravel 3 (Moscow)!
Turn 362, 1704 AD: Gandhi's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 363, 1706 AD: Yaroslavl' has been founded.
Turn 363, 1706 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) (3.30) vs Barbarian's Galley (0.74)
Turn 363, 1706 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 363, 1706 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 363, 1706 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 363, 1706 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 363, 1706 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 28 (3/100HP)
Turn 363, 1706 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1706 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 (7.20) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (5.16)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Combat Odds: 87.8%
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 1 is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant has defeated Stalin's Pikeman 1!
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) (8.80) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (6.26)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Combat Odds: 88.8%
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (35/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (16/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's War Elephant 21 (St. Petersburg) has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 364, 1708 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' have expanded!
Turn 364, 1708 AD: St. Paul (Great Prophet) has been born in Washington (Roosevelt)!
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's Maceman (8.80) vs Stalin's Crossbowman 15 (St. Petersburg) (11.70)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Combat Odds: 17.3%
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman 15 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman 15 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman 15 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Crossbowman 15 (St. Petersburg) has defeated Gandhi's Maceman!
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) (3.60)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Combat Odds: 3.0%
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 364, 1708 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 365, 1710 AD: Islam has spread in Yaroslavl'.
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 (7.20) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (4.44)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Combat Odds: 95.8%
Turn 365, 1710 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Stalin's Pikeman 2 has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 365, 1710 AD: Roosevelt has completed The Kong Miao!

Turn 366, 1712 AD: You have trained a Worker in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Market.

Turn 367, 1714 AD: Roosevelt has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 367, 1714 AD: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Market.

Turn 368, 1716 AD: Your Longbow 3 has destroyed a Worker!
Turn 368, 1716 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 368, 1716 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 368, 1716 AD: You have made peace with Gandhi!
Turn 368, 1716 AD: De Gaulle has founded Chartres in a distant land.
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Roosevelt has founded Philadelphia in a distant land.
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Gandhi adopts Caste System!
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Zhang Heng (Great Engineer) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Nubian (Barbarian) has been captured by the Chinese Empire!!!
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Barbarian's Maceman (8.80) vs Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) (6.00)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Combat Odds: 86.6%
Turn 368, 1716 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman) is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 368, 1716 AD: Barbarian's Maceman has defeated Stalin's Longbow 3 (Longbowman)!
Turn 368, 1716 AD: While defending, your Longbow 3 was destroyed by a Barbarian Maceman!

Turn 369, 1718 AD: Churchill has 110 gold available for trade.
Turn 369, 1718 AD: Roosevelt will trade Nationalism
Turn 369, 1718 AD: Yekaterinburg has been founded.I made peace with G for 85 gold... he was on that sum for 3 turns, so i thought we can't sqeeze more from him.

Founded both the planned cities, in the already approved spots.
Icy is already Islamic, desert will be in 2 turns.

I stopped a couple workers to load them on the galley for Yaroslav' (the icy city).
The mines are on ice and they take forever.
Rostov has 5 specs hired, working the 3 mines and the 3 fishes and the WS is on its way.
Moscow is working on its market, i think another caravel is needed since i've lose one (really bad luck, 2 fights lose at some 80%).

Novo and Yaro are both producing a CH and Yekaterinburg (the blue city) a library, since it's very close to Moscow.

Astro is due in 3, so we can save some money to upgrade the galley after it.

I identified some 12 spots. Yes 12. Most decent, i discarded the worse. I guess we'll be ruined, but it's the only way to go. Damn, 12 settlers are a lot.

More:
Now Roos has Nationalism and Mao GP. Both Roos and G have Nationalism on the table, but GP not.
I asked dyes to Roos and he (Friendly) gently accepted. This deal will last for 6 turns and we must find something to give him to keep it open.

I've seen GB is out of poscket 'til Monday, so we can swap if UT can play.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 25, 2009, 05:54 PM

I made peace with G for 85 gold... he was on that sum for 3 turns, so i thought we can't sqeeze more from him.

Wasn't conversion to Islam an option in addition to Wealth?

Making peace with Gandhi wasn't really discussed in sufficient detail!

Please explain!

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 25, 2009, 06:03 PM

UT recommended to not last the war for too long.
G won't accept nothing else than those gold. I was short of troops and not willing to waste hammers and maintenance on troops.

What's the point? We all said we need to be peaceful to develop our cities. He continued to throw troops at us, i've lost 1 Pike (> 80%) to a WE of him, 1 LB to an unexpected Mace to barbs (and those stupids killed their own workers too) and a caravel to a galley with 80% chances.

Too much for my taste, better be good.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 25, 2009, 07:07 PM

You not included it in your PPP and your revised PPP can't be seen in Europe at least for 6 hours. In fact not me or UT have reply to that until too late. You posted the revised PPP and played some 4-5 hours later. And you posted a revised PPP with for the first time you mentioned this option announcing you was playing in 45 minutes.Even if it was posted in a decent time how can you have a feedback in 45 minutes? Important variations on a PPP require at least 12 hours before you play.

I didn't need to post a revised PPP; there wasn't anything significant that was completely new and worthy of discussion. I simply did it to consolidate the PPP which listed several alternatives and the discussion posts that followed to clarify which was chosen by the group (at least those that offered their input). Furthermore, nobody requested a Revised PPP with a 12 hour discussion period before play can start.

I know you can't sell a tech for it's entire value in gold (considerig the entire value what the AI evaluates it, thus the 80% of what we do). Of course i meant tech+gold.
I sell for small cash only obsolete techs to backwards opponents, not a freshly researched tech.
Better sacrifice some turn of research that a potential trade opportunity.
Better the chicken tomorrow than the egg today.
And if the egg stays an egg, well, we can always sell it tomorrow.

Technologies can become obsolete very quickly. In my opinion, its often better to get some trading value from a Technology before the AIs quickly trade it among themselves leaving one with no market for it and nothing for hoarding it.

What can we offer now for GP? RP? No, hell i'd prefer to research it myself.
Economics? Roos has it on its own, you gave it to Mao (what we care if he declares?) dG maybe? Let's hope.

There is a learning experience here, but please stop saying almost exactly the same thing over and over and over and over.

We need to anticipate demands like Mao's demand for Economics and include them in the PPP or standing rules, but we need to allow for exceptions such as an AI demanding a Technology that everyone else has. Maybe its not worth the 1-2 negative Diplomacy to refuse such a demand and a possible War with the AI?

One of the problems with such demands is this requester pop-up doesn't allow access to other areas of the game to assess the risk and provide a carefully considered response. We need to know what our response will be before hand.

I was on fence with Mao's demand; we all knew that Gandhi would DoW, but we didn't know that it wouldn't be with 2 or 3 times the units he actually sent. Rostov seemed vulnerable from either Gandi or Mao or both with its single unpromoted Longbow; one very unlucky RNG with the first attack could take over half the Longbowman's strength. Another attack could finish him. No, I could not refuse Mao's demand and risk losing Rostov. I did not want to make a decision that could lose the Game for the Team. I did not want to lose my first SG and have everyone hate me for my stupid mistake.

Please do not undervalue Diplomacy in this Game; we really don't want War with the AIs until we can blast them with sufficient Nukes and Offensive Military units. However, there may be exceptions where we can kill an AI's Settler and defenders before they settle an area we want; that may justify a DoW on that AI.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 25, 2009, 07:29 PM

What's the point?

Did we lose an opportunity to convert Gandhi to Islam?

We discussed plans to do that a few weeks ago.

Gandhi was willing to convert to Islam for 100 Wealth in my Turn Set, but that was far too high a price to pay at this time at least.

I was just hoping to get Gandhi to convert to Islam plus _all_ his Wealth for Peace, but I suppose that was too much to hope for ...

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 25, 2009, 09:23 PM

Well executed BLubmuz! A bit unlucky with the RNG, but not too bad.

TS played. Seen the observations on the estimated finish date and the Epic speed, I decided to extend my TS to 12 turns and this will be applied to anyone from now on.

Sorry, I completely misunderstood your reason for extending your Turn Set. I see now that our Turn Sets will be 12 turns until further notice. It still would be best to note this in the PPP before hand rather than after the fact.

Another reason was that i was trying a worker stealin to the barbs, but unfortunately they eliminated the LB i sent with a damn mace... not great luck on fights, i should have lost my touch :( 2 workers was a nice plunder, if successful.

Great idea! How many Workers did you successful steal? How many subsequently lost? Net gain in Workers?

I stopped a couple workers to load them on the galley for Yaroslav' (the icy city).
The mines are on ice and they take forever.

I see only one Worker there now. No doubt I'm blind in one eye and just don't know it.

Moscow is working on its market, i think another caravel is needed since i've lose one (really bad luck, 2 fights lose at some 80%).

Maybe we can wait long enough to complete/trade for Gunpowder, bulb Chemistry and complete Astronomy so we can build a Galleon instead; complete Chemistry and build a Frigate eventually. We will soon want Galleons and Frigates in our Navy anyway.

unclethrill suggested a Bank in Moscow before a Market and I agree. We need the +50% Wealth of a Bank more the the +2 Happiness and +25% Wealth of a Market. I'm not sure it is wise to switch to a Bank right now, but we really need one now. We can barely support an average of 30% Research right now.

We should try leaving one of each type of Military units with 1t left to build in many of our Cities Queues, completing them just before we start losing Hammers. It will help stretch our maintenance Wealth per turn costs. It won't help our Power rating, but it will help ensure our survival and allow for quick Military replacements when we need them.

Novo and Yaro are both producing a CH and Yekaterinburg (the blue city) a library, since it's very close to Moscow.

The Library in Yekaterinburg could be chopped quickly. So could a Settler with 5 nearby Forests. We probably need to settle Sugar Island soon. It would also be nice to box-in the AIs on the Big Continent by settling most of the surrounding Islands.

Astro is due in 3, so we can save some money to upgrade the galley after it.

With the extended turn set, Astronomy is now due in 1t. Better switch to Gunpowder first thing, before completing Astronomy, otherwise the Chemistry bulb will not be possible until Scientific Method and Physics are completed which will take two GS each and a significant amount of research too.

I identified some 12 spots. Yes 12. Most decent, i discarded the worse. I guess we'll be ruined, but it's the only way to go. Damn, 12 settlers are a lot.

Brilliant! We're finally going to Spam Settlers like we need to!

To afford it we may consider running State Property (fixed maintenance costs due to distance, +1F for Workshops and Watermills and +10% Hammers, but No Corporations). This would require Communism.

We'll have to compare this to running Mining, Inc. +1.50H and Sid's Sushi +0.75F & +3Cult.

Now Roos has Nationalism and Mao GP. Both Roos and G have Nationalism on the table, but GP not.

We should research Gunpowder and hopefully it will become available soon.

De Gaulle doesn't like us enough to trade Gunpowder, so we (try to) make him like us. Give him Education in the current turn! I wouldn't even ask for his measly 30 Wealth. Hopefully our gift of Education will increase our trade Diplomacy by at least +1 (quite likely if he still has a way to go). Next turn we can trade Liberalism for Gunpowder if our relations have improved enough. If our Diplomacy still isn't enough and we want Gunpowder badly enough, we can gift Liberalism for +2 to +4 Diplomacy and then De Gaulle will probably trade Gunpowder for Economics.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 25, 2009, 09:40 PM

Our two new Cities have two unimproved Seafood Tiles that need Nets soon.

We need to build four Work Boats in nearby Cities. Some could be built in Moscow. Some could be chopped.

Of course we could use another naval unit to defend them, so perhaps another Caravel now would be a good idea.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 26, 2009, 12:22 AM

I will grab the save in about 12 hours. PPP in about 15 and plan to play in about 36 hours. That way we can be set for GB next on his schedule.

BLubmuz

Sep 26, 2009, 03:26 AM

Too much to quote. Answers:

The barb worker steal was an idea flashing when the caravel showed 2 of them working.
I has a galley just outside Silver and LB waiting for the settler. The barb city was guarded by a mace. So i loaded the LB and moved one from StPete there and successfully captured the workers. But IBT the barbs popped a LB, so the mace attacked our LB, won and both workers destroyed.
Once we have a galleon we can try to keep it loaded with some good unit and try some worker steal and pillage to the barbs. Of course the workers stolen are 0 at present.

I agree that my decision on the TS extension to 12 was not planned. Not a great deal, anyway.

Yes, we need 4 more WBs for the seafood. And another caravel. Frigates are too faraway. But Moscow must complete its market.
I've found that market started in Moscow.

The Sugar is not reachable without Astro or OB with G.

We can sell Edu to dG for all he can pay.

Yes, Astro is due next turn (dunno why i posted 3), so UT must switch immediately to GP. It's due in 7, but we can't sustain 7 turns. I also doubt dG would trade it.

The worker on ice is still alone. I said i stopped some worker in the mainland to be ready to load next turn. We can even load 2, mine+road the 3 mines then bring them back on the mainland.

G has 1 Islam city and 2 Chris, Capital included. If he accepted the conversion he convert back after 5 turns. I already tried this with Spiritual AIs, it works this way.
Better sure money.

Last thing: i paused the game before save, sorry. Also, i spent a lot of time planning the spots with the alt+X function and now they're disappear on the save??? edit: No just hit alt+X and rightclick in an empty point. they show again.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 26, 2009, 11:27 AM

We can sell Edu to dG for all he can pay.

Yes, Astro is due next turn (dunno why i posted 3), so UT must switch immediately to GP. It's due in 7, but we can't sustain 7 turns. I also doubt dG would trade it.

Please consider my plan to improve relations with De Gaulle by gifting Education this turn (before clicking next turn). Next turn, our relations may be enough that he is willing to trade rest of Gunpowder for Liberalism.

Losing 30 Wealth that De Gaulle might trade for Education right now is worth the risk that he still refuses to trade Gunpowder next turn.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 26, 2009, 11:37 AM

Mesix

Sep 26, 2009, 12:15 PM

Can someone post some updated pics of the map with all the cities?

BLubmuz

Sep 26, 2009, 12:35 PM

Please consider my plan to improve relations with De Gaulle by gifting Education this turn (before clicking next turn). Next turn, our relations may be enough that he is willing to trade rest of Gunpowder for Liberalism.

Losing 30 Wealth that De Gaulle might trade for Education right now is worth the risk that he still refuses to trade Gunpowder next turn.I already recommended to sell Edu to dG.
But i didn't expect this from a player like you (even if you sold Lib for almost nothing :wallbash: :p): trade a tech for a small sum is better - relation-wise - than just gift it.

unclethrill

Sep 26, 2009, 12:50 PM

unclethrill

Sep 26, 2009, 01:00 PM

PPP

Okay here is my PPP. Not a lot of detail here since there really won't be much to do on this TS.

Cities: Finish current builds. Then ...
Moscow: 2 or 3 WB. Caravel at some point. Bank (not likely on this TS but it is +15W)
StP: Settler
Rostov: NE
Novo: Settler
Ket: 1 or 2 WB. Lib
Yar: Won't finish CH on this TS

Workers;
Finish what they are doing. Then ...
Send another worker to island
Mine next to SP
Farm FP
Camp Phant
Mine and connect silver
Mine Iron

Units:
Bring back Caravel for protection.
Move explorer aimlessly

Diplo:
No trades unless Deg wants to trade GP (not likely).
Sell Edu to DeG for his 30 W
No one else will trade techs
Restart dye to Roos if possible after he drops it.

Research:
Finish GP.
Bulb Chem is GS shows up. Finish
Finish Astro after Chem bulbed.

That's it. Let the berating begin!

BLubmuz

Sep 26, 2009, 01:09 PM

Got the save. Will post a PPP for the next 12 turns in the next couple hours.

A couple things I noticed on the graphs:
We are the furthest team along: If we are the only team that finishes by the deadline do we automatically win?
We are at the top of the graph for power: Guess we are the safest from the AI.
We are middle of the pack on culture and much further along in the graph. Either we are behind on spreading our cities or everyone else is spread too thin?

Based on these facts, I agree that we need to ramp up our expansion. Hopefully we can do it without tanking the economy. We may need to lose Pacifism to afford it.Yes, we're the most advanced team in term of turns.
But we're in the middle of the pack if not in the low half for score. Was we too slow to settle? Was we too slow on research? Maybe our competitors built some wonder?

I think we're doing well with our "box G" strategy and i can't see how the other teams can have a so high score. Whipping is not the way to go, you lose score that way.
i'm :confused:. We're also to the happy cap or close in our main cities, so a few giant cities are not possible. still :confused:

One thing is sure: if we'll be the only team finishing in time, we'll win. But i suppose the other teams will do anything to obtain a delay.

OK Mesix, i'll try to post some screenie, knowing UT's problems in doing that. Time to change that 386, UT!

BLubmuz

Sep 26, 2009, 01:18 PM

I've seen your PPP, UT and i think you'll finish the 2 markets and so on. This will improve a lot our research rate, or our wealth generation when at 0 res.
I agree on everything else, mainly the NE.

The only variation i propose is about workers: i'd like better hook both silver ASAP, more than iron. This not only will affect our research, but also we have some resource to offer.
To do this, i propose to move 2 workers to the icy.

Remember there's that WS half done in the GL near Novo, forgot to put a sign there :blush:.

In case you can't see the sites i proposed, hit alt+X and you should see them. Then just rightclick and you'll go back to normal but with the signs there.

unclethrill

Sep 26, 2009, 01:36 PM

2 more workers? or two total?

BLubmuz

Sep 26, 2009, 02:30 PM

2 more workers? or two total?2 more. You have posted 1, i ask 2 more = 3 total.
Once both silver are hooked, you can load one in the galley and unload him on a forest tile near Novo.
Then you'll pick the remaining 2 and maybe you'll add a LB for best defense.

unclethrill

Sep 26, 2009, 03:36 PM

2 more. You have posted 1, i ask 2 more = 3 total.
Once both silver are hooked, you can load one in the galley and unload him on a forest tile near Novo.
Then you'll pick the remaining 2 and maybe you'll add a LB for best defense.

Gotcha!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 26, 2009, 06:26 PM

I already recommended to sell Edu to dG.
But i didn't expect this from a player like you (even if you sold Lib for almost nothing :wallbash: :p): trade a tech for a small sum is better - relation-wise - than just gift it.

I was not aware that its better to sell a Technology for a small amount of Wealth than simply gift the Technology. I was not able to confirm your claim via a search of the Forums. Do you have a link to a Forum post, thread or article that substantiates your claim?

In any case, 30 Wealth is such a small value that it is unlikely to affect Diplomacy any differently than simply gifting Education, so we may as well take the 30 Wealth in trade.

Next turn - t93 (1720 AD): If De Gaulle's Diplomacy improves enough to trade Gunpowder, we will trade Liberalism for it. If not, do we try to improve Diplomacy further by gifting Liberalism? Or, do we just give up and Research the remainder of Gunpowder? Even if we need to gift Liberalism to gain enough Diplomacy with De Gaulle such that he 's willing to trade Gunpowder for Economics, we still withhold from him Economics in case he still doesn't like us enough to trade Gunpowder.

We should have sold Education to De Gaulle when we were ready to trade for Gunpowder, many turns ago. Our relations may have improved enough that he would offer Gunpowder in trade. We could already have Gunpowder from De Gaulle who will always be behind in Research, because he has such poor land.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 26, 2009, 06:38 PM

Continue to apply our meager 4 Ept on Mao; We are at 69 and need to be 99 to see his F9 Graphs.

Monitor Gandhi's "Can See Demographics" value, now 96. Our Espionage versus Gandhi is steady at 112.

We can't catch up to either Churchill's or De Gaulle's value, until we have more Courthouses. Raising the Espionage slider before we have Tactical Nukes is unthinkable.

No worries about our "friend" Roosevelt.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 26, 2009, 07:04 PM

If we run Nationhood, we can draft up to three 50% XP Units (soon Musketmen; later Riflemen, Infantry, ...) per turn that cost 3 Unhappiness for 15 turns and 1 Population; good for emergency defense of weakly defended Cities that are being threatened. It also adds +25% Espionage in All Cities.

Best of All, Nationhood also provides +2 Happiness per Barracks; since Stalin has the Aggressive trait, all our Barracks are half price to boot!

Even better: Both Churchill's and De Gaulle's Favourite Civic is Nationhood and they will start to love us when we and they are both running Nationhood.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 26, 2009, 08:39 PM

PPP

Cities: Finish current builds. Then ...
Moscow: 2 or 3 WB. Caravel at some point. Bank (not likely on this TS but it is +15W)
StP: Settler
Rostov: NE
Novo: Settler
Ket: 1 or 2 WB. Lib
Yar: Won't finish CH on this TS

Novgorod: Courthouse has 11t left; will something be done to speed this up, so the Settler can start earlier and complete sooner?

Clarification: Yekaterinburg will interrupt Library to build 1-2 Work Boats then resumes Library?

Moscow: Could build a Settler in 9 turns now. Can we continue the Workshop 1-W of Moscow (only 1t completed; 8t left)? 1-NW of Moscow is a good place for a second Workshop. These two Workshops would add two 1F3H Tiles inside Moscow and the additional Hammers contributed would be 3H + 3H = 6H; 6H x 1.75 = 10 Hpt. It's even better when one sees how these 6 additional Hammers are added to the current base Hammers of 18, resulting in 24 Base Hammers. Total Hammers would become 24 x 1.75 = 42 Hpt versus the current 31 Hpt, a net gain of 11 Hpt. Moving two citizens from 2F2C to 1F3H costs us 4 Base commerce (6 Net) which hurts a bit plus -2 Fpt, so Fpt goes from 7 Fpt down to 5 Fpt. Our "Settler" Hammers goes from 31 Hpt + 7 Fpt = 38 "Settler" Hpt to 42 Hpt + 5 Fpt = 47 "Settler" Hpt. A Settler now can be built in 342H / 38 SHpt = 9 turns with no overflow. After two Workshops, a Settler in Moscow can be built in 342H / 47 SHpt = ~7.28 turns.

Analysis of the effect of a Bank in Moscow now: A Bank in Moscow right now would add +24 Wpt in our 00% Research turns and +0 Wpt in our 100% Research turns. Ignoring current Treasury balance, our ratio of 100% Research turns to All turns is <Positive income rate>/(<Positive income rate> + ABS(Negative income rate) = 31/(31+66) = 31/97 = ~32%. So, 32% is our sustainable percentage of 100% Research turns. Our sustainable percentage of 00% Research turns is simply 100% - ~32% = ~68%. Therefore, a Bank in Moscow would have a sustainable Wealth benefit of 32% x 0 Wpt + 68% x 24 Wpt = 16.3 Wpt. So, just a little better than unclethrill's estimate of 15 Wpt. Of course the Wpt provided by the Bank will decline when we are able to increase the rate of 100% Resaerch turns to Total turns by injecting significant Wealth via trades or building Wealth in some Cities.

Workers;
Finish what they are doing. Then ...
Send another worker to island
Mine next to SP
Farm FP
Camp Phant
Mine and connect silver
Mine Iron

Worker orders are fine.

Partly this TS and mainly beyond: We need more Workers to keep up with the current workload and we'll need another 6 Workers soon and that will be barely enough for our next 6 Cities. When we have 18 Cities we will need a minimum of 18 Workers. Not sure how we can efford to pay them all. Maybe have some Cities building Wealth in the future?

Units:
Bring back Caravel for protection.
Move explorer aimlessly

Diplo:
No trades unless Deg wants to trade GP (not likely).
Sell Edu to DeG for his 30 W
No one else will trade techs
Restart dye to Roos if possible after he drops it.

Research:
Finish GP.
Bulb Chem is GS shows up. Finish
Finish Astro after Chem bulbed.

Sounds OK.

Do we want +2 Happiness per Barracks to get Nationalism and run Nationhood? The ability to draft 3 Units per turn may help us defend our expending Empire prior to gaining the ability to build Tactical Nukes. +25% Espionage in all Cities. Nationhood is the favourite Civic of De Gaulle and Churchill and is a cheap way to get huge Diplomacy with these two. This would make bribing De Gaulle and Churchill (in addition to Roosevelt) to do some of our dirty work easier.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 27, 2009, 03:48 AM

I've seen your notes, STW and the bank in Moscow is quite sure, we just have to define the priority. Much will depend on the GP research which is delaying Astro. IF we can manage to trade for GP, we have to delay at least for 1 settler. Otherwise we can start it. Also an Harbor will help both research and cash and it's cheap compared to a bank.

Nationhood: i'm not a fan of this civic. The draft can be done only in cities over a certain size and in 3 cities/turn. Also, by the time we'll have it i don't know how much we need to improve relations with Chur and dG. Bribe them against Mao which they already hate? Maybe, but as you pointed out, dG will stay behind in tech and Chur is not in a much better position.

Roos is boxed, so he can't do much with his Organized trait.

I think that after this early phase no one of them will be a serious problem.

As i said, our main concern is their ability (?) to settle cities in desparate spots, 1-tile-islands and so on.
And the consequent need to build one more nuke, one more transport for some troop to take a useless city we can't raze.

Some comparisons of cost.
An ICBM cost 675. 1/2 of a Life Support but the same if you consider this SSC doubles with copper.

the screenies asked.

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 10:52 AM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 11:41 AM

Okay so ...
-Nationalism is a moot point as we have nothing to trade for it right now.
-We want a bank in Moscow but I think we need a couple WB first and a settler
-DeG will not likely trade GP but I'll keep my eyes open for it.
-We need more workers but I doubt it will happen in this TS.
-Two more workers to the island

I plan to go in a couple hours so if there are anymore comments, please get them out soon.
-Novo will finish the CH and start a settler. It may only have 1 turn on it at the end of my TS.
-Yak will halt the lib and build 2 WB then finish Lib.

The other AIs may acquire Gunpowder or Nationalism. We agree to trade Gunpowder for Liberalism in any case. Otherwise, do we trade Gunpowder for Economics when the target AI already has Liberalism?

After the 30W for Education trade with De Gaulle in t92: If De Gaulle will still not trade Gunpowder (he [still] doesn't like us enough), will we do a lopsided trade like WM/petty cash for Liberalism or gift Liberalism? If so, we will get 2-4 Diplomacy and De Gaulle might than be willing to trade Gunpowder for Economics yet in t93. Right now, De Gaulle is not the worst enemy of anyone, so there's no third party Diplomatic negative for proceeding with this plan. Also, there is no risk that De Gaulle will ever be anywhere except last place in Research.

After we have secured a Gunpowder trade, do we consider trading for Nationalism and what price do pay? Although this is not likely in this TS, we should agree on what price we will pay for Nationalism. My current understanding is we will accept Nationalism for free, but not even for 5 or 10 Wealth in trade. ;)

I agree with your PPP as modified above. I see no reason to delay longer, unless someone else has something else ...

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 11:42 AM

Nationhood: i'm not a fan of this civic. The draft can be done only in cities over a certain size and in 3 cities/turn. Also, by the time we'll have it i don't know how much we need to improve relations with Chur and dG. Bribe them against Mao which they already hate? Maybe, but as you pointed out, dG will stay behind in tech and Chur is not in a much better position.

Roos is boxed, so he can't do much with his Organized trait.

I think that after this early phase no one of them will be a serious problem.

BLubmuz, you did not even comment on what I consider the biggest advantage of running Nationhood: +2 Happiness per Barracks. Also, we get the Aggressive trait's +100% Hammer bonus for building Barracks. When a City needs more Happiness, it should be big enough to build a Barracks in anywhere between 1-5 turns, depending on available Hammer Tiles.

Nationhood is certainly better than our current Despotism Civic. Also Hereditary Rule can be expensive to fully utilize while running Pacifism; also we don't pay maintenance on Barracks for Nationhood and do pay maintenance for every extra Military unit we add for extra Happiness using Hereditary Rule.

The price for Nationhood is getting Nationalism and 1 turn of Anarchy for the Civic change.

I believe that other Teams are getting ahead of us via plans that included trading for Nationalism as soon as it was available and switching to Nationhood, among other ideas we may not have thought of.

Considering also the other advantages of Nationhood, it seems to be the best Government Civic for us to run in the near future and possibly through the rest of the Game.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 12:02 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 12:31 PM

We are at risk of losing the Ivory Camp 1-N & 2-W of St. Petersburg - Stalin 52% & Gandhi 47%. Is there anything we can and want to do to prevent this?

We are at risk of losing the Floodplain 2-N & 1-W of Novgorod - Stalin 50% & Gandhi 49%. Is there anything we can and want to do to prevent this?

Starting a Theatre in St. Peterburg after completing the Islam Missionary would probably be enough to stall and push back Gandhi's Culture? I have not been paying attention to the Culture levels on our borders with Gandhi, so I'm not sure a Theatre would be enough, but it could be built in 3t, maybe 2t with enough Hammer overflow and Citizen adjusted for more Hammers including negative growth (if warranted).

A Theatre could also be built in Novgorod, but it would take much longer to complete (up to 9t). On the other hand, doubling Novgorod's Culture would probably regain that Flooplain after we lose it for most of unclethrill's TS.

We could also switch the free Specialist in both Cities to an Artist and even more Artists, but I'm not sure we want much Great Artist pollution in either City.

The final option is building Culture (23 Cpt in St.P.; 8 Cpt in Nov.) in either City for a few turns. This is only a stop gap measure, since we don't want to build Culture in these two Cities forever. It may be enough to build Culture in St. Petersburg for 1t to gain some breathing room for the Ivory Camp until we can build another Ivory Camp or build a Theatre later.

Suggestions:

St. Petersburg: build Culture (23C) for 1t; complete Missionary; build Theatre (2-3t); resume previous queue

Novgorod: build Culture (8C) for 1t; build Theatre (9t); resume Courthouse

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 12:42 PM

I can wait but I doubt there is much we can do.

Anyone have any ideas how we can further exert cultural control over those squares in the next couple turns?

BLubmuz

Sep 27, 2009, 12:54 PM

I've not payed attention to the sultural pressure of G. My fault.
I think better not delay the missionary, but after it, build a theatre and a temple.
With the temple we can also run a priest, which is not bad if we pop a GPro.
I consider building culture a net loss in Holy city already with library and monastery.
But if we still see pressure it may be worth.

Also i don't think Novo has risks, once StPete will provide its culture.

A small trick can be recover the hill where i started a windmill in StPete BFC.
When i settled the city E, it stolen that tile to StPete.

About Nationalism: we should try to trade for it, but i can't see what. But after it there's Constitution, which opens Representation, far more interesting.

Also, once we'll have both, can we consider to burn a GP on a GAge?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 12:57 PM

I can wait but I doubt there is much we can do.

Anyone have any ideas how we can further exert cultural control over those squares in the next couple turns?

From a previous quote you may have missed:

Suggestions:

St. Petersburg: build Culture (23C) for 1t; complete Missionary; build Theatre (2-3t); resume previous queue

Novgorod: build Culture (8C) for 1t; build Theatre (9t); resume Courthouse

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 01:14 PM

Representation:

About Nationalism: we should try to trade for it, but i can't see what. But after it there's Constitution, which opens Representation, far more interesting.

I agree that Representation would be much better for us than Nationhood. So we probably should have put Representation earlier in our plans. No doubt running Representation is how some other Teams are getting higher Scores earlier than us.

A Great Merchant has priority 8 of bulbing Constitution (after Nationalism is complete).

Corporation:

Constitution also opens up Corporation, but we will need to wait for Railroad to found Mining, Inc. via a Great Engineer and wait for Medicine to found Sid's Sushi via a Great Merchant.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 01:57 PM

Wealth creation has become an issue in recent turn sets due to the need for a moderately large standing Military while running Pacifism as well as City maintenance. With our ambitious Settler Spamming plans (12 new Cities), the City maintenance will become the dominate factor.

Harbors:

Since we need both Research and Wealth, the best way to increase Wealth is to increase its primary source, Commerce. Harbors as mentioned by BLubmuz are a good option since they are cheap and offer extra Health, but since we are running Mercantilism their Commerce benefit is nerfed to 1-2 Commerce per City per ALL turns.

We can currently sustain ~32% Research 100% turns versus ~68% Wealth 100% turns, so we should prioritize Wealth multiplying buildings before Research multiplying buildings to maximize both Wealth and Research.

Courthouses:

Courthouses are -50% Maintenance (Wealth) discount building that are effective ALL turns. They should be prioritized in the more distant Cities of which we will soon have many once once Settler Spamming plans get into full swing (are being executed).

Five Banks plus Wall Street in Moscow:

Build Banks (+50% Wealth) in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Novgorod, Rostov and Yaroslavl'. Some of these Cities may not have enough Commerce to justify a Bank, but we need 5 Banks to build Wall Street.

Build Wall Street (+100% Wealth) in Moscow.

Markets and Grocers:

Build Markets and Grocers (+25% Wealth; +Happiness or +Health respectively) in Cities with high Commerce/Wealth.

Building Wealth:

In Cities where there's nothing better to build, we can build Wealth which increases the ratio of Research to Wealth slider turns.

State Property:

Requires Communism and nullifies the effects of Corporations completely. Adds +10% Hammers in All Cities. Adds 1F to Workshops and Watermills. I've seen State Property have a uniform +8 Wpt City maintenance without Courthouses and +4 Wpt maintenance with Courthouses, but we need to test this to be sure; for exmple, I'm uncertain that this is the same for all Games speeds.

Good bye for now ... caveat.

Have to leave now for a fews hours, thus this post was rushed a bit and I'm certain I've overlooked something.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 03:59 PM

Getting ready to start my TS.

BLubmuz

Sep 27, 2009, 05:05 PM

Go on, be good boy (get away those fingers from your nose), good luck!

BTW UT, would you please run a test changing Merc to FM? just to see the benefits.

If you do it, please take note of the :science:pt at a sustainable research rate (note it e.g. 40%) and the net gpt +/- at the same rate.

I think this time the OU will go in our GP farm. I agree on WS in Moscow, along with the IW.

I do not even consider State property. The :hammers: from Mining Inc are far superior, the food from Sushi will be mandatory once we begin the nuclear war. Far better than 1 :food: from WSs and WMs or the +10% of *raw* production.
Those increase % are the worst thing in CIV: you always think to the overall beakers or hammers, but they are given only on the base commerce or production.

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 05:12 PM

TS Done. No boogers on the keyboard.

Pretty uneventful other than lots of Barb Galleys. We need to keep the three caravels close for a while.

Here are my notes.

1. unpause game
2. Change to GP
3. Bring back Caravel
4. change Moscow to caravel
5. Run culture in SP
6. Switch to Theatre in Novo
7. Sell Edu to DeG for 30
8. Switch to WB in Yek
9. Killed barb galley- almost dead
10. Finish caravel in moscow
11. Lost FP to G
12. Mission done in SP. Spread in Yek
13. Moscow to 11
14. Knight in SP
15.New caravel takes out second Barb galey
16. Taking knight to barb homeland
17. Killed third barb galley
18. Peace treaty done with Roos
19. G willing to trade our ivory back to us
20. Moscow to 12
21. Rostov 11
22. SP finishes theatre. Start Settler
23. GE born in Rostov.
24. Got GP.
25. Bulb Chem
26. Switch to Astro (1)
27. Knight pillaging.
28. Finished Astro.
29. Switch to Chem
30 Church wants us to war with Mao.
31. More pillaging
32. Killed another galley
33. 2 turns of Chem left.
34. Traded silver for silk to Mao
Saved on turn 105

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 05:15 PM

Autolog

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)

------------------------------------------------

[b]Turn 92/473 (1718 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:15:34]

Tech traded to De Gaulle (France): Education

Research begun: Gunpowder (7 Turns)

Yekaterinburg begins: Work Boat (7 turns)

Yekaterinburg begins: Work Boat (5 turns)

Novgorod begins: Theatre (9 turns)

Moscow begins: Caravel (3 turns)

100% Research: 131 per turn

0% Culture: 44 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -66 per turn, 208 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 93/473 (1720 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:24:38]

While attacking, Caravel 11 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.7%)

While attacking just off shore near Yekaterinburg, Caravel 11 (Moscow) (0.45/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.7%)

100% Research: 131 per turn

0% Culture: 21 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -66 per turn, 142 in the bank

Turn 94/473 (1722 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:27:14]

100% Research: 132 per turn

0% Culture: 21 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -66 per turn, 76 in the bank

After End Turn:

Moscow grows to size 11

Moscow finishes: Caravel

St. Petersburg finishes: Islamic Missionary

Turn 95/473 (1724 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:30:06]

Islam has spread: Yekaterinburg

0% Research: 15 per turn

0% Culture: 22 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 34 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:

St. Petersburg finishes: Knight

Rostov grows to size 11

Yaroslavl' grows to size 3

Turn 96/473 (1726 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:36:27]

St. Petersburg begins: Theatre (3 turns)

While attacking, DEFAULT (Caravel) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 76.9%)

While attacking just off shore near Yekaterinburg, DEFAULT (1.47/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 76.9%)

A Mine was built near Yaroslavl'

0% Research: 18 per turn

0% Culture: 22 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 32 per turn, 44 in the bank

After End Turn:

Yekaterinburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 97/473 (1728 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:40:25]

DEFAULT (Caravel) promoted: Combat I

DEFAULT (Knight) promoted: Combat I

A Fishing Boats was built near Yekaterinburg

A Workshop was built near Rostov

100% Research: 140 per turn

0% Culture: 22 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -74 per turn, 76 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

While defending in the wild near Parthian, DEFAULT (10.00/10) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)

Civics Change: De Gaulle(France) from 'Pacifism' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 98/473 (1730 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:43:31]

While attacking, DEFAULT (Knight) decimates Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)

While attacking in the wild near Parthian, DEFAULT (10.00/10) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)

While attacking, Caravel 14 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.7%)

While attacking just off shore near Parthian, Caravel 14 (Moscow) (0.96/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.7%)

A Mine was built near Yekaterinburg

A Windmill was built near Yekaterinburg

0% Research: 15 per turn

0% Culture: 22 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 32 per turn, 2 in the bank

After End Turn:

Moscow grows to size 12

St. Petersburg finishes: Theatre

Yekaterinburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 99/473 (1732 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:46:27]

St. Petersburg begins: Settler (16 turns)

DEFAULT (Knight) promoted: Combat II

0% Research: 16 per turn

0% Culture: 29 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 35 per turn, 34 in the bank

After End Turn:

Moscow finishes: Market

Rostov finishes: Market

Turn 100/473 (1734 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:49:18]

Diplomacy (Help Request): De Gaulle (France) asks Stalin (Russia) for Economics; Stalin REFUSES.

Moscow begins: Bank (9 turns)

Rostov begins: National Epic (16 turns)

A Fishing Boats was built near Yaroslavl'

0% Research: 16 per turn

0% Culture: 29 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 52 per turn, 69 in the bank

After End Turn:

Yaroslavl' grows to size 4

Turn 101/473 (1736 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:50:49]

A Mine was built near Yaroslavl'

100% Research: 147 per turn

0% Culture: 29 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -73 per turn, 121 in the bank

After End Turn:

Rostov grows to size 12

Yekaterinburg grows to size 3

Yekaterinburg's borders expand

Turn 102/473 (1738 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:53:22]

0% Research: 15 per turn

0% Culture: 25 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 55 per turn, 48 in the bank

After End Turn:

Novgorod finishes: Theatre

Nikolaus August Otto (Great Engineer) born in Rostov

Other Player Actions:

Mao Zedong (China) declares war on Churchill (England)

Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Churchill (England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Civics Change: Churchill(England) from 'Pacifism' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 103/473 (1740 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:53:58]

100% Research: 150 per turn

0% Culture: 28 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

0% Gold: -76 per turn, 112 in the bank

After End Turn:

Tech research finished: Gunpowder

Moscow grows to size 13

Yaroslavl' grows to size 5

Turn 104/473 (1742 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:55:52]

Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Mao Zedong (China) asks Stalin (Russia) to stop trading with Churchill (England); Stalin REFUSES.

Research begun: Astronomy (1 Turns)

Research begun: Astronomy (1 Turns)

0% Research: 15 per turn

0% Culture: 28 per turn

0% Espionage: 4 per turn

100% Gold: 57 per turn, 42 in the bank

After End Turn:

Tech research finished: Astronomy

Novgorod grows to size 7

Yekaterinburg grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:

Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 105/473 (1744 AD) [28-Sep-2009 02:59:16]

Diplomacy (War Request): Churchill (England) asks Stalin (Russia) to declare war on Mao Zedong (China); Stalin REFUSES.

Research begun: Chemistry (13 Turns)

While attacking, Caravel 11 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.7%)

While attacking on the high seas near Parthian, Caravel 11 (Moscow) (1.47/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 79.7%)

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 05:16 PM

Session Log

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1718 AD to 1744 AD:

Turn 369, 1718 AD: Yekaterinburg has been founded.

Turn 370, 1720 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) (3.30) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 370, 1720 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 370, 1720 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 371, 1722 AD: You have trained a Caravel in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 371, 1722 AD: You have trained Islamic Missionary in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Knight.

Turn 372, 1724 AD: Islam has spread in Yekaterinburg.

Turn 373, 1726 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Caravel) (3.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Combat Odds: 76.9%
Turn 373, 1726 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Caravel) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Caravel) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Caravel) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Caravel) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 373, 1726 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Yekaterinburg. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 373, 1726 AD: Narayana Guru (Great Prophet) has been born in Orleans (De Gaulle)!

Turn 374, 1728 AD: De Gaulle adopts Theocracy!
Turn 374, 1728 AD: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Stalin's DEFAULT (Knight) (11.00)
Turn 374, 1728 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 374, 1728 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 374, 1728 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (59/100HP)
Turn 374, 1728 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (18/100HP)
Turn 374, 1728 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (0/100HP)
Turn 374, 1728 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Knight) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Knight) (11.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 375, 1730 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (59/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (18/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (0/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's DEFAULT (Knight) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) (3.30) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 375, 1730 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 375, 1730 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 375, 1730 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Yekaterinburg. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 378, 1736 AD: The borders of Yekaterinburg have expanded!

Turn 379, 1738 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 379, 1738 AD: Nikolaus August Otto (Great Engineer) has been born in Rostov (Stalin)!
Turn 379, 1738 AD: Churchill adopts Theocracy!
Turn 379, 1738 AD: Mao Zedong has declared war on Churchill!
Turn 379, 1738 AD: Heron (Great Engineer) has been born in Shanghai (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 380, 1740 AD: Churchill has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 380, 1740 AD: You have plundered 9? from the Mine!
Turn 380, 1740 AD: Moscow will grow to size 13 on the next turn.
Turn 380, 1740 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 380, 1740 AD: You have discovered Gunpowder!

Turn 381, 1742 AD: Moscow has grown to size 13.
Turn 381, 1742 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 5.
Turn 381, 1742 AD: Churchill has 130 gold available for trade.
Turn 381, 1742 AD: De Gaulle has 100 gold available for trade.
Turn 381, 1742 AD: Roosevelt has 180 gold available for trade.
Turn 381, 1742 AD: Mao Zedong will trade Nationalism
Turn 381, 1742 AD: You have plundered 6? from the Camp!
Turn 381, 1742 AD: Novgorod will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 381, 1742 AD: Yekaterinburg will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 381, 1742 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 381, 1742 AD: A Spy has been stumbled upon while operating near the Russian city of Moscow!

Turn 382, 1744 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 7.
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 4.
Turn 382, 1744 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg are about to expand.
Turn 382, 1744 AD: You have plundered 5? from the Plantation!
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) (3.30) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 382, 1744 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Your Caravel 11 (Moscow) has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Rostov will grow to size 13 on the next turn.

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 05:17 PM

Here is the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Fifth_Element_SG010_AD1744_01.CivBeyondSwordSave)

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 05:18 PM

BLubmuz

Sep 27, 2009, 05:27 PM

I will try but it will be a couple days. I have to write a fairly complicated program for school.np, do it when you can, no reason to hurry. For now is just a curiosity. But it can be a useful info.

It seems a good TS. good idea to send a knight to pillage the barbs. We can also use it to scout their continent. Then, a good unit on a lurking galleon wating for workers to steal can help our development.

edit: i can not resist, so i opened the save. Yes the TS is good. We're 2 turns away from Chem, maybe 3 since we must set to 0 next turn or even this one. Better this one and upgrade the galley.

- Everyone is willing to trade Nationalism for Astro: the best offer is from Roos: he adds WM and 180 gold to it. But i don't like to sell this tech. Maybe Chem once researched is better?
- Everyone has Econ, but they're all running Merc.
- Moscow and Rostov needs badly those Harbors, due to health problems.
- We can renegotiate OB with G if we like to.
- We must build quickly a WB in Yek to hook those Clams.
- In 2 turns Novo will expand its borders: Then we must hook the furs, cancel the deal with Roos and trade for it. This way we'll be sure he won't cancel it.
- What about promote our heroic caravel to medic2?
- Better fire the Eng in Rostov and work the WS, and stop to work a seafood, so we can have 5 sci at work and delay the growth by 1 turn. Growth means 1 more unhealthy. The HE is due in 9 this way, then an harbor.
- Uni after settler in StPete. and improve that ivory.
- Alright, Mining Inc is assured. After next GS in Rostov me must run Merchants for Sushi.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 07:38 PM

We can spend a little more time plotting our moves for each turn set and still make the dead-line? Assuming the Game last till turn 420 (Hopefully it will end much sooner in a Conquest Victory for Stalin), we would have (420 -105) / 15 = 21 turn sets left. We should try to squeeze 3 turns sets per week until we start full scale War against the Barbarians and selected AI Civs (Gandhi perhaps). While in a full scale Nuclear War we probably want shorter Turn Sets again; not sure how short.

I look for guidance from our fearless leader, BLubmuz.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 27, 2009, 07:47 PM

I'm good with 15 at this point. What do you think BLubz?

Another thing. Is STW up or are we gonna wait for GB to get back online?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 07:50 PM

TS Done. Pretty uneventful other than lots of Barb Galleys. We need to keep the three caravels close for a while.

Excellent turn set, unclethrill!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 08:21 PM

Another thing. Is STW up or are we gonna wait for GB to get back online?

I was also wondering about that. I could come up with a PPP in the next hour or two. It could save us 24-48 hours.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 27, 2009, 08:37 PM

I've decided to work on a PPP that whomever is ultimately UP can use as he sees fit.

It will be for turns 106-120 (15t). Trim-able to 106-117 (12t).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 12:05 AM

Whether greatbeyond or I (STW) execute this TS shouldn't matter. If greatbeyond remains UP, he is welcome to use as much or as little of this PPP as he wants. If BLubmuz deciides to swap us and I (STW) is UP, the following will be my PPP.

PPP for turn 106-120 (15 turns):

If BLubmuz prefers to stick with 12 turns, just ignore the last 3 turns of this PPP.

Research:

Note: Civ Pop is now 49 and climbing; thus GS bulb ~= 2250 + 4.5 x 50 = 2475B; other GP bulb ~= 1500 + 3 x 50 = 1650B.

1) Complete Chemistry (3t:Res-100-00-100)
2) Trade with De Gaulle: Nationalism + all his Wealth + World Map for Liberalism + Chemistry
3) Set Research to 00% until enough to upgrade Galley to Galleon; upgrade any Caravels to Frigates?
4a) Start Rifling (3628B); since we can't bulb it, could take up to 40 turns to complete.
4b) Start Scientific Method (3628B), but research no more than 1000B, leaving 2628B for GS to bulb; this may take till end of TS, otherwise start Rifling.

Trading Options:

Open Borders with Gandhi?

1) Refuse all demands for Technologies or breaking off Trade with a 3rd Civ.
2) Refuse all demands by Civ with worst enemies other than De Gaulle (we don't care that he hates us) or Roosevelt (he loves us, so we can afford a few Diplomatic negatives, -1 in his case).
3) Try to make Resource trades (excess Health then excess Happiness) for Wealth per turn to reduce our deficit at 100% Research, trying to avoid worst enemy diplomatic penalties, but ignore such penalties if we can get 10+ Wpt for one Resource.
4) Cancel any deals we don't need; never cancel OB.

Gandhi's Culture taking our Border Tiles:

St. Petersburg will exceed 750 Culture in 1t, popping to Cultural Radius 4.
Novogorod will exceed 150 Culture in 2t, popping to Cultural Radius 3.
As a result, we may recover lost Tiles in the following few turns.

City Growth:

All Cities will grow aggressively as possible, unless other priorities are more important.

New Units:

Privateer: We could build one or more of these units to destroy enemy ships without declaring War, after Chemistry!

Moscow:

Growth: 13P -> 15P
Build: complete Bank (3t); Harbor (3t with new WS); Worker (3t); University (6t).
Worker 22: Workshop (3t); move 1-N, Workshop on Grassland (6t with help from new Worker); both Workers 1-NE, Workshop on Plains (5t/4t); move 1-S, start Workshop.

St. Petersburg:

Growth: 8P -> 9P
Build: complete Settler (9t); start University (6t + 8t next TS)
Worker 3: complete Floodplain Farm (2t); move 2-N (1t); build Mine (3t); move 1-N, Floodplain Farm (5t); move 1-N, Ivory Camp (3t); move 1-NE, Ivory Camp (1t + 2t next TS).
Worker 24: complete Floodplain Farm (2t); move 2-N (1t); build Mine (3t); move 1-N, Floodplain Farm (5t); move 1-N, Ivory Camp (3t); move 1-NE, Ivory Camp (1t + 2t next TS).
Maceman 16: 1-W to protect Workers; protect Workers 3 & 24 until first Ivory Camp is completed; return to St. Peterburg.

Novogorod:

Growth: 7P -> 9P
Build: complete Courthouse (12t); Library (3t + 18t next 2 TS)

Rostov:

Growth: 12P -> 15P (to Happiness Cap easily; hire more Scientists)
Build: complete National Epic (8t with Workshop); Harbor (6t with Workshop); start University (1t + 13t next TS).

Yaroslavl':

Growth: 5P -> 6P; move citizen to two 2H5C and 4H Tiles.
Build; complete Courthouse (12t); Library (3t + 9t next TS).
Worker 1: complete Iron Mine (2t); Road (1t); move 2-W via Galley (2t); Fur Camp (4t); 1-W Waterwheel (4t); 1-NE, Workshop (2t + 2t next TS).
Worker 2: complete Iron Mine (2t); Road (1t); move 2-W via Galley (2t); Fur Camp (4t); 1-W Waterwheel (5t); 1-NE, Workshop (2t + 2t next TS).
Worker 4: complete Iron Mine (2t); Road (2t); move to Yekaterinburg via Galley, 1-S (2t); Chop G Forest (5t); move 1-W (1t); Chop G Forest (3t + 2t next TS).

Yekaterinburg:

Growth: 4P -> 6P
Build: complete Library (1t); Work Boat (4t); Work Boat (4t); University (6t + 5t next TS, already reduced 7t via 2 Forest Chops).

Exploring Units:

Caravel 11: promote to Medic 2; heal in place; guard against Barbarian Naval Units in current area.
DEFAULT Caravel: rename to Caravel 1; guard against Barbarian Naval Units in current area.
Caravel 14: promote to Combat 2?; guard against Barbarian Naval Units in current area.
Explorer 0: continue current 3 step dance ... on Sugar Island
DEFAULT Knight: Rename to Knight 1; explore Barbarian States; never attack anything except isolated Barbarian Warriors and Workers; pillage every Tile not adjacent to a heavily defended Barbarian City.

Espionage:

We are hopeless behind everyone (to see F9 Graphs) expect Mao; still 4 Ept versus Mao; 121 current; need 130 to see Mao's F9 Graphs.

Please comment and note anything missing.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 28, 2009, 02:22 AM

I've seen STW PPP and it's a pity not let him swap. We're only 4, so we need probably frequent swaps. GB lose nothing, he can play after him, i'll wait for him to catch up in any case.

I'm not for 15 turns TS, too many things can happen. I think 12-13 is a good compromise between speed and need to share news.

I think i like STW PPP. Some tweaks:
Sure we'll upgrade the galley to galleon and the caravel with 10 XP (medic2?) to frigate.
I'm all for start rifling and keep our GPs idle until we can start SM.

Yes, i like privateers. They can give us the 9 GG points we need to pop our first GG. Along with some babdly needed money from blockades.
Just keep them stacked in pairs.
Do you know you can gain money from 2 cities with a single Privateer if you can manage to blockade both?
Also, the AI will build tons of caravels until frigates come in play.

Chem to dG? seems good, unless he's already researching it, it would be enough for Nationalism.
And OB with G, i don't see problems in that.

Also i'd like to change the specialists in Rostov to Merchants to pop a GM for Sushi and to improve our wealth. Obviuosly after next GP (probably a GS) will pop.

I'd like also to see some opinions on the spots i proposed, with a priority. Some little adjustement is probably needed, i can have overlook something. But we need a priority and a schedule for settlers and related workers and escorts.

I suppose the settle now building is for the sugar island. But we need to decide if the spot i proposed is OK.

We have also unlocked the HE. (just promote that caravel)
Goin' back to what i already proposed:
Moscow: WS + IW
Rostov: NE + OU
I'd like to build the HE in a coastal city, to build expensive ships. This let Novo or Yek.
In Novo, which can be a good production city once the levees will arrive, it will also help to fight G's culture, so i'm for Novo unless you show me i'm wrong.

In case we lack oil, we can't build tanks and planes. But we can build destroyers and so on with uranium, revealed by Physics and operational with Fission.

BLubmuz

Sep 28, 2009, 03:12 AM

Exploring Units:

Caravel 11: promote to Medic 2; heal in place; guard against Barbarian Naval Units in current area. Yeah, then upgrade to Frigate!
DEFAULT Caravel: rename to Caravel 1; guard against Barbarian Naval Units in current area.
Caravel 14: promote to Combat 2?; guard against Barbarian Naval Units in current area. Sure, C2
Explorer 0: continue current 3 step dance ... on Sugar Island
give him some rum to continue... it fits with sugar cane!
DEFAULT Knight: Rename to Knight 1; explore Barbarian States; never attack anything except isolated Barbarian Warriors and Workers; pillage every Tile not adjacent to a heavily defended Barbarian City. Mainly cottages, if possible, then scout the inside, if safe enough.
There's something fishy in unit names given in UT's TSs... UT, please verify your settings for that. But ususally i can see normal names when i open his saves.

Espionage:

We are hopeless behind everyone (to see F9 Graphs) expect Mao; still 4 Ept versus Mao; 121 current; need 130 to see Mao's F9 Graphs.Yes, at least we can see 2 AI's graphs, until some CH will come in play.

I've looked on F9 and there's an AI with over twice our GNP... WTF?

Also, our graph compared to other teams (competition) is all but great. Are we mistaken something in our strategy? STW, you're a great planner. Can you try to interprete those graphs?

unclethrill

Sep 28, 2009, 11:35 AM

I just failed to choose new name for the units. Those are the Buffy assigned names.

greatbeyond

Sep 28, 2009, 03:45 PM

BLubmuz

Sep 28, 2009, 05:22 PM

Go ahead and take it STW. I have been reading, but without the actual game to play with it, There's no way to create a PPP.

I couldn't take aay from all the hardwork you did.

We need to start thinking about taking some bold moves. Murky has things well in hand followed by Smurkz. We need to hope that we have accomplished some things they haven't and that our curves will match or exceed theirs over the next several turnsetsCan you play after STW? I hope so, we're only 4 actual players.

BTW our official lurkers can please post something to let us know if we can count on them and when?

Yes i noticed their curves and i asked to STW (but anyone of us can answer) to try to simulate how they can be so high.

Score is given by pop, land, techs and wonders.

Maybe our expansion is not fast, but i think our teching is. IIRC pop and land combined give more score points than techs and wonders.

Sure we lost the first turn, but out of over 100 as we are it counts almost nothing.
To be accurate, we lost only an half, since StPete was settled after 3 turns.
Sincerely, i can't find a solution.
But even in SG9 i thought we was doing well and we was beaten by far, despite our great final game. Our mistakes were in the early-middle game, say around late BC to early AD. Some imagination? some scenario? let's try to make this exercise.

Now, the most important decision is planning when, where and how we settle.
I identified some 12 spots and only build 12 settlers is a great effort, anyone of them must be escorted and given one dedicated worker.
Some 6 galleons can be enough, but leaving only one unit/city is a great risk, even if a rifle.
All those cities will build anything, included WBs. And they will kill our research until their CHs will complete.

STW, while playing your TS, please take a look at the sites i proposed, make your variations (move, delete, add) and post your comments.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 05:46 PM

Also, our graph compared to other teams (competition) is all but great. Are we mistaken something in our strategy? STW, you're a great planner. Can you try to interprete those graphs?

Score is 50% Civ Population, so I'd say that the leaders in score mainly just have more Cities and/or more Population/City, perhaps by packing their Cities closer together. Also, Research is 20% of score; perhaps some teams bee-lined Constitution to run Representation?

High Culture suggests more Cities and/or perhaps they have already built Universities which add significant Culture. High Culture could also be the result of a more highly contested struggle against Gandhi's Culture. They may have tried to settle closer to Gandhi's Cities than we did; even 1 Tile closer makes a huge difference. Luckily, we have needed a Theatres in two Cities to push back on Gandhi's Culture. (A great deal of credit goes to unclethrill's testing and turning back of three of Gandhi's settlers!)

High Power is very strange. Has to be due to a much larger Military or more advanced units like Riflemen. Murky Waters has a very steep Power spike that has just sat there for at least a few days; they might be at War I'd guess.

Suggestion:

Perhaps, we should direct some effort toward getting Constitution so we can run Representation?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 05:57 PM

We need to start thinking about taking some bold moves. Murky has things well in hand followed by Smurkz. We need to hope that we have accomplished some things they haven't and that our curves will match or exceed theirs over the next several turnsets

I agree that the Team graphs are useful, but we can still win first place and have lower stats in the end. Which is better? To Win with 250 Pop on turn 350 or 500 Pop on turn 370? So a low score doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to end up in 1st place.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 06:04 PM

BLubmuz

Sep 28, 2009, 06:05 PM

Suggestion:

Perhaps, we should direct some effort toward getting Constitution so we can run Representation?If you can trade for Nationalism, possibly Chem as you proposed, We're just one step from it. High culture can be alco an academy. I don't think it's worth a GS in 1300 AD. The payoff is too distant, mainly with all the bulbs we used. If they beelined Constitution from the beginning, they would have miserably lost the Lib race, not mentioning the Econ. If they went for Nationalism right after Edu, then popped a GE for Taj, they can have high culture, a GAge, but again lost Lib. No, i suppose they built settlers like mad. But the room in our continent is small and they need time to settle interesting spots in the islands.

BLubmuz

Sep 28, 2009, 06:10 PM

We don't want the AI to have the advantages of Printing Press?

If we trade Chemistry, and later they complete Astronomy, we will longer have a Naval Technological Superiority.

Again, planned trade with De Gaulle is:

Nationalism + all his Wealth + World Map for Liberalism + Chemistry

Sun Tzu WuPP opens Rifling, and it's expensive. No Lib to dG unless needed to obtain Nationalism. Or at least, trade it in a separate trade, just to rip-off some money.

Giving him Lib, means other AI lacking GP can't trade Lib for it... see for the best.
We'll discuss when try Constitution after your TS. Good luck!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 06:19 PM

Score is given by pop, land, techs and wonders.

Maybe our expansion is not fast, but i think our teching is. IIRC pop and land combined give more score points than techs and wonders.

Just mentioning that Score is weighted as follows:

Population is 50%

Land is 20%, but a Tile counts only 20 turns after initial possession via Culture.

Technologies is 20%

Wonders is 10%

I'm too concerned about our Team Score, because it is simply the Firaxis score and quite meaningless in HoF ranking for example. On the other hand, we would be fools to ignore it for what it tells us about how the other Teams are doing compared to us.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 06:30 PM

As planned, my Turn Set will produce just 1 Settler. I have tried to build Universities so we get extra Research (Culture in St. P.) and are closer to 5 Uni. in order to build Oxford U. in Rostov later. We can build a 2nd Settler instead of a University.

I'd also like to add at least two Privateers to my PPP, most likely in Moscow.

I think 1 Settler is OK for this turn set; we'll spam Settlers later.

Suggested revision of my PPP:

I'll squeeze in two Privateer builds. Will delay University in Moscow.

No other changes.

Sound OK?

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 28, 2009, 06:59 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 07:30 PM

I'm planning to start my Turn Set very soon.

This is just a summary of changes by BLubmuz, plus some comments by me, mainly for my own reference while playing the TS:

Turn Set will be either 12 turns or 13 turns, which ever seems the best for coherent play.

Upgrade the galley to galleon and the caravel with 10 XP (medic2?) to frigate.

Research: Start Rifling and keep our GPs idle until we can start SM.

Yes, i like privateers. --> I'm taking this as implicit approval to add 2 Privateer builds; we should not delay building them, since they are especially effective against a Civ that has only Caravels at best; in a previous (very recent) post I said I'd build them in Moscow (no change here).

Chem to dG? seems good, unless he's already researching it, it would be enough for Nationalism. (Chemistry is same value as Nationalism, so Liberalism will almost certainly be required.)
And OB with G, i don't see problems in that.

Also i'd like to change the specialists in Rostov to Merchants to pop a GM for Sushi and to improve our wealth. Obviuosly after next GP (probably a GS) will pop.
So, after next Great Person is popped, we change all Merchants to increase change of a Great Merchant, but probably not 100% change GM.

I'd like also to see some opinions on the spots i proposed, with a priority. Some little adjustement is probably needed, i can have overlook something. But we need a priority and a schedule for settlers and related workers and escorts.
I will change and add to Alt-X dot plots, but 12 plots added by BLubmuz are very good already; very strategic in my opinion, if distant, but that can't be helped.

I suppose the settle now building is for the sugar island. But we need to decide if the spot i proposed is OK. Yes, I'll have to send a Missionary and Military Unit too, but a Military Unit and Worker meant be better?

We have also unlocked the HE. (just promote that caravel)
Goin' back to what i already proposed:
Moscow: WS + IW
Rostov: NE + OU
I'd like to build the HE in a coastal city, to build expensive ships. This let Novo or Yek.
In Novo, which can be a good production city once the levees will arrive, it will also help to fight G's culture, so i'm for Novo unless you show me i'm wrong.
I will put HE in a coastal city, probably Novgorod, definitely not Rostov or Moscow; Yekaterinburg may be better, but must consider levee Hammer effect; must have enough food to support the Hammer Tiles.

Now, the most important decision is planning when, where and how we settle.
Other than Sugar Island, I don't see this affecting my TS directly.

STW, while playing your TS, please take a look at the sites i proposed, make your variations (move, delete, add) and post your comments. OK.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 08:11 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 08:23 PM

I'm starting TS (t106-117) right now; I'll be done in a few hours.

Again, I'll try to add 2-6 Privateer builds to hold off AI Settlers from our Islands. I suspect I'll only be able to build 2, since I can't sacrifice other more critical builds, but maybe I could squeeze out 3-4.

Please post comments, I'll be checking this thread often as I proceed through this TS.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 28, 2009, 08:58 PM

Good luck!!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 09:43 PM

Good luck!!

Thanks! I just got 28W pillaging a Barbarian Hamlet. unclethrill, Great idea completing/sending the Knight to the Barbarian States.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 28, 2009, 11:14 PM

I guess those changes are okay but I would really like to just spam out 3 settlers ASAP. We have got to get more cities down in the next few turns or those islands we keep longing for will be gone. Every TS I play I see a couple or more AI cities getting founded but fail to see Stalin's cities. Once they fill up their land, all the islands will go quick and they are getting close to that point.

Your fears were justified.

I'm stopping at t110, so the Team can agree on what to do about this: The Explorer on Sugar Island can see Culture from two new Cities SW and SE, one Gandhi's (several Tiles of Culture visible) and the other is Churchill's (one Tile of Culture visible).

I suggest building several Privateers to intercept and destroy these Galleys. I mean interrupting every build in Seaport Cities we have, completing critical/important builds and build 5 Privateers ASAP. I plan to work out a revised PPP for the remainder of my TS (t111-117) early Tues. evening.

Upload Log:

Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) (3.30) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 382, 1744 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 382, 1744 AD: Stalin's Caravel 11 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 382, 1744 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!

Turn 383, 1746 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!

Turn 384, 1748 AD: You have discovered Chemistry!

Turn 385, 1750 AD: Gandhi has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 385, 1750 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!
Turn 385, 1750 AD: You have plundered 3? from the Cottage!
Turn 385, 1750 AD: Yekaterinburg will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 385, 1750 AD: You have discovered a source of Copper near Rostov!
Turn 385, 1750 AD: Deal Canceled: Dye from Roosevelt
Turn 385, 1750 AD: Archimedes (Great Engineer) has been born in Vijayanagara (Gandhi)!

Turn 386, 1752 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 5.
Turn 386, 1752 AD: Nanjing (Mao Zedong) has been captured by the English Empire!!!

Turn 387, 1754 AD: Gandhi has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 387, 1754 AD: You have plundered 14? from the Cottage!

autolog.txt:

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 105/473 (1744 AD) [28-Sep-2009 21:43:30]
Caravel 14 (Moscow) promoted: Combat II
100% Research: 165 per turn
0% Culture: 28 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -80 per turn, 104 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg's borders expand
Rostov grows to size 13
Yekaterinburg finishes: Library

Turn 106/473 (1746 AD) [28-Sep-2009 22:04:37]
Yekaterinburg begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
Caravel 11 (Moscow) promoted: Medic II
A Farm was built near St. Petersburg
A Mine was built near Yaroslavl'
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Culture: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 67 per turn, 24 in the bank

After End Turn:
Novgorod's borders expand

Turn 107/473 (1748 AD) [28-Sep-2009 22:29:20]
Diplomacy: Gandhi (India) offers to trade Nationalism to Stalin (Russia) for Astronomy
A Workshop was built near Moscow
100% Research: 166 per turn
0% Culture: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -75 per turn, 119 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Chemistry
Moscow finishes: Bank

Turn 108/473 (1750 AD) [28-Sep-2009 22:46:38]
Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Churchill (England) asks Stalin (Russia) to stop trading with Mao Zedong (China); Stalin REFUSES.
Research begun: Rifling (18 Turns)
Moscow begins: Worker (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Harbor (3 turns)
Tech traded to De Gaulle (France): Liberalism
Tech traded to De Gaulle (France): Chemistry
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Nationalism
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Culture: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 92 per turn, 74 in the bank

After End Turn:
Yekaterinburg grows to size 5

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 109/473 (1752 AD) [28-Sep-2009 23:09:08]
Diplomacy: Roosevelt (America) cancels gift of Dye to Stalin (Russia)
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Culture: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 92 per turn, 26 in the bank

After End Turn:
Yekaterinburg finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Churchill (England), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 110/473 (1754 AD) [28-Sep-2009 23:22:25]
Diplomacy (Tribute Demand): De Gaulle (France) demands that Stalin (Russia) gives Crab; Stalin AGREES.
Yekaterinburg begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Yekaterinburg
A Mine was built near St. Petersburg

I was able to trade for Nationalism from De Gaulle on turn 108:

Nationalism + World Map + 170W for Liberalism + Chemistry

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 29, 2009, 02:35 AM

STW, so you stop to gather suggestions. Well done, even if i think your proposals are OK.

Yes, Chur has settled probably on copper and G probably on horses, i mean on top of the resource. Roos has settled the long island, probably 1N of Iron.

I agree for Privateers, but we need also settlers.
Moscow can build 2 privateers after the harbor, then settler. StPete needs a Uni after the settler, but after it it will provide the most of land units.

Novo can build the HE after the CH, then mixed ships.

After the NE Rostov can build a privateer, then harbor.

Noticed? G has constitution: he's probably beelining to Democracy, so he'll can adopt his FC, US. The bad on this is that he will adopt Emancipation too. And we're already close to the happy cap in our largest cities.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 29, 2009, 07:47 AM

Yes, Chur has settled probably on copper and G probably on horses, i mean on top of the resource. Roos has settled the long island, probably 1N of Iron.

I agree for Privateers, but we need also settlers.
Moscow can build 2 privateers after the harbor, then settler. StPete needs a Uni after the settler, but after it it will provide the most of land units.

Novo can build the HE after the CH, then mixed ships.

After the NE Rostov can build a privateer, then harbor.

In Novgorod, we will need to build Barracks next, since Heroic Epic can't be built without one present.

Yekaterinburg could build a Privateer after the Courthouse.

That would be a total of four Privateers in the remainder of my TS, 3 completed and 1 just started. Will that be enough for the next 7 turns? I suggest we build at least two more in the next TS.

Noticed? G has constitution: he's probably beelining to Democracy, so he'll can adopt his FC, US. The bad on this is that he will adopt Emancipation too. And we're already close to the happy cap in our largest cities.

Yes, I was a little surprised that Gandhi had just completed Constitution on t110 (actually t109, but one often learns such things a turn later). He probably is starting Democracy now, so we have a few turns before Emancipation looms over us.

Please consider the above my revised PPP for turns 111-117.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 29, 2009, 07:58 AM

In Novgorod, we will need to build Barracks next, since Heroic Epic can't be built without one present.

Right, so you can build a privateer immediately, then finish the CH, Barracks, HE

Yekaterinburg could build a Privateer after the Courthouse.

Yes. We need also 2 more WBs IIRC, Yek can provide those after the Privateer
Or we can build the Privateer immediately, then resume the CH

That would be a total of four Privateers in the remainder of my TS, 3 completed and 1 just started. Will that be enough for the next 7 turns? I suggest we build at least two more in the next TS.

With the variations even more. For now we can let them alone to cover the most possible galleys paths, but in a near future we must keep them in pairs and try some blockade, too

Yes, I was a little surprised that Gandhi had just completed Constitution on t110 (actually t109, but one often learns such things a turn later). He probably is starting Democracy now, so we have a few turns before Emancipation looms over us.

Please consider the above my revised PPP for turns 111-117.

Sun Tzu WuNot really surprised, in any game he beelines Demo and tries culture.
Noticed you already upgraded the galley and the M2 frigate, :goodjob:
Prepare the galleon with a spare LB or a mace and a worker for sugar before the settler completes. Have you signed OB with G? I forgot to verify... Go on.
And improve the Ivory!!!

Please also delete (Alt+X) the already settled spots and post some comment on the remaining ones. Go ahead.

greatbeyond

Sep 29, 2009, 09:18 AM

Privateers are great for killing off the units that the AI builds while they are trapped on a galley. This amounts to a huge loss of production for them. The more of them we have now, the longer we can keep the AI suppressed.
The rest of the plan still looks good

unclethrill

Sep 29, 2009, 01:05 PM

I agree that it is the best choice we have right now.

What is our goal number of cities? BLubz marked off about 18 sites IIRC but I doubt we want to settle that many. I do think that we need to get as many settlers out ASAP. We really need to get them down soon not just to block off the land (since privateers can do that) but to get them established and have time to make them productive.

I know how badly we need infrastructure but I think slow expansion is what cost us SGOTM9 and we have the opportunity right now to not fall into that same hole. I propose that for the next 2 TS (24 turns) we plan to establish 5 more cities. We can run merchants to help with money (we need a GM for sushi anyway). That will give us 6 +1(current build) +5 cities for a total of 12 by T140ish. I think that will put us in a good position and will allow us to move forward quickly.

We also need to prioritize NW and their required buildings ASAP. We need OU as quickly as possible. We can't afford a delay like in SGOTM9.

Looking at the graphs, I think we are in the middle to upper potions right now and if we can REX out soon, we can put ourselves in a good position to win this. We just need a plan and we need to all execute.

BLubz, maybe you could add to one of your first posts a list that designates the proposed city spot settling order and the NW/building queues for the major cities so that we all can plan our TS accordingly. I know we need to "go with the flow" when things change but I think we all may be doing a little too much flowing from our plan and we all need to rein it in a bit. A directed list would help with this.

BLubmuz

Sep 29, 2009, 01:32 PM

...
What is our goal number of cities? BLubz marked off about 18 sites IIRC but I doubt we want to settle that many.
...
I know how badly we need infrastructure but I think slow expansion is what cost us SGOTM9 and we have the opportunity right now to not fall into that same hole.
...
We also need to prioritize NW and their required buildings ASAP. We need OU as quickly as possible. We can't afford a delay like in SGOTM9.
But in this game i think the OU is far less important. Nonetheless, better build it ASAP.
...
BLubz, maybe you could add to one of your first posts a list that designates the proposed city spot settling order and the NW/building queues for the major cities so that we all can plan our TS accordingly. I know we need to "go with the flow" when things change but I think we all may be doing a little too much flowing from our plan and we all need to rein it in a bit. A directed list would help with this.Sure, i'll do, on post #3. I asked to STW to analyze the spots i marked and propose a priority list. I can do the same and you too, so all we have to do is compare the 3 proposals and discuss the differences. We can do this between the TS STW is goin' to finish and GB's TS.

BLubmuz

Sep 29, 2009, 02:03 PM

I marked exactly 12 spots. 2 are gone. I list the best ones, the remaining 4 are not a priority.# location distance resouces new resources
1 SugarIsland 1 24W sugar, copper
2 SugarIsland 2 30E 9N sugar *2
3 Whales 31E 5S whales, sheep
4 Whales north 31E clams stone
5 polar 24E 18N fish*2,crabs ---
6 Marble 29E 17N clams,fish marble

SI2 is a great spot: good food, good production. But Whales are important for happiness, thus the priority can be reversed between those 2.
#4 is not that great, but stone will help the OU. Also, we don't need Marble by the time we'll have it, still it's a pretty good spot.
Once we'll have defined i'll post in this form on #3.
Any comment is welcome.

unclethrill

Sep 29, 2009, 02:21 PM

I can't seem to get the markers back up on the screen so where are those measurements from? Moscow?

I like that order but I would like to look at them on the map too.

BLubmuz

Sep 29, 2009, 02:32 PM

I can't seem to get the markers back up on the screen so where are those measurements from? Moscow?

I like that order but I would like to look at them on the map too.

...
In case you can't see the sites i proposed, hit alt+X and you should see them. Then just rightclick and you'll go back to normal but with the signs there.For some reason, the signs disappeared, but this should work.

ANd yes, the distances are from Moscow, with a tolerance of +/- 2 tiles. They're faraway, not easy to count.

unclethrill

Sep 29, 2009, 02:42 PM

I keep trying that and it worked on the save that you submitted when I first played then but now it won't work on any save for me.

BLubmuz

Sep 29, 2009, 03:42 PM

I keep trying that and it worked on the save that you submitted when I first played then but now it won't work on any save for me.I made my post by using the last save uploaded by STW. But since you can know by that which spots are now settled, you can use the one where you can see the signs.

unclethrill

Sep 29, 2009, 03:45 PM

The only thing I suggest is to switch 2 and 3. Once we settle the first settler on the sugar island, this should slow down the AI settling there for a little while.

Once STW posts his save, I'll see about recommendation on build queues.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 29, 2009, 06:24 PM

Roosevelt will trade ...

Constitution + World Map + 230W for any 2 of {Printing Press, Gunpowder, Astronomy}.

------

Just for curiosity sake, Gandhi will throw in conversion to Islam as follows ...

Constitution + World Map + 80W + Islam for any 2 of {Replaceable Parts, Gunpowder, Astronomy}.

------

It also appears that Gandhi has just completed Printing Press.

------

Suggestion:

We want Constitution to run Representation. Do we consider Roosevelt's following offer?

Constitution + World Map + 230W for Printing Press + Gunpowder

I think it is worthwhile to get Representation with +3 Bpt bonus for all Specialists. It Would really help our Research when we switch to Merchants in Rostov.

I will finish this turn & pause the game for 1 hour from now.

Perhaps, I should just upload (the turn 113 save) again? I hate to interrupt my TS a second time though.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 29, 2009, 06:58 PM

Privateer schedule: 5 in 4 City queues (2 in Moscow and 0 in Yaroslavl').

turn 114: 1
turn 117: 3
turn 118: 1

I'll wait another 30 minutes; if no consensus (with sufficient Team members) on Trading for Constitution can be made, I'll probably just upload the turn 113 save.

Without Representation, it will take about 28 turns to complete Rifling at our current Research rate as limited by maintenance costs. With Representation, it could take as little as maybe 16 turns to complete. This is not including the 230W which is almost enough to finance 100% Research for 3t.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Sep 29, 2009, 07:07 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 29, 2009, 07:31 PM

BLubz will not be online probably for another 12 hours or so. It's the middle of the night here (I work nights) so he won't be able to give you an answer in an hour.

I say stick to the plan and finish up your TS. That trade will still be on the table on the first turn of GB's TS.

That way we can spend a day or two discussing the cost v. benefit of the trade before we make it.

You're right of course. Plus, we probably don't want to delay all our Privateers by a turn of Anarchy anyway. As can be seen in my Privateer schedule posted recently, three Privateers will complete on the last turn of my TS (turn 117) and just one will have just 1t left.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 29, 2009, 09:03 PM

I will have a Settler on Sugar Island (Yellow Dot) on t116. Where should he settle? Right on the dot? That hits one Sugar and Copper, but misses two Sugar and a Fish. Settling 1-W of there gets two Sugar (Ring 2) and Copper, but three PH. That seems to be a better Site, and even leaves room for a second City on the SW PH that has the Fish in its BFC.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 29, 2009, 11:43 PM

No units near Sugar Island have moved, so we can determine where to settle the Settler before ending turn 117.

We need to discuss making the following or a another trade for Constitution. In a previous post, I mistakenly implied that Representation doubled Research; it Doubles only the Research provided by Scientists; it more than doubles Research of other Specialists; has no effect on Research from Commerce. Here's the trade Roosevelt will make yet in turn 117:

Constitution + World Map + 270W for Printing Press + Gunpowder

We should do a Resource trade with De Gaulle for his 5 Wpt. Should we cancel the current Wpt deal we have with him and make a new deal for more Wpt or just offer him a second Resource for his current 5 Wpt surplus? When canceling a Wpt deal, the current surplus can go down, so not only do you lose the deal you canceled, the new deal is for even less than his surplus before canceling the 1st deal. It's not a big, but every single Wpt adds up.

Session Turn Log from 1754 AD to 1768 AD:

Turn 387, 1754 AD: You have constructed a Harbor in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Privateer.
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Nebuchadrezzar II (Great General) has been born in Guangzhou (Mao Zedong)!
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Subutai (Great General) has been born in London (Churchill)!
Turn 387, 1754 AD: Gandhi adopts Free Market!

Turn 388, 1756 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 388, 1756 AD: St. Petersburg celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!

Turn 389, 1758 AD: St. Petersburg celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 389, 1758 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!
Turn 389, 1758 AD: You have constructed National Epic in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Privateer.
Turn 389, 1758 AD: James Cook (Great Merchant) has been born in Estruscan (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 390, 1760 AD: You have trained a Privateer in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Privateer.
Turn 390, 1760 AD: You have trained a Settler in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a University.
Turn 390, 1760 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman (7.20) vs Stalin's Knight 1 (12.00)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Combat Odds: 3.8%
Turn 390, 1760 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Stalin's Knight 1 is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Barbarian's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 390, 1760 AD: Stalin's Knight 1 has defeated Barbarian's Longbowman!

Turn 391, 1762 AD: Joseph Marie Jacquard (Great Engineer) has been born in York (Churchill)!

Turn 392, 1764 AD: You have trained a Privateer in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 393, 1766 AD: Mao Zedong has 210 gold available for trade.
Turn 393, 1766 AD: De Gaulle has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (6.00) vs Mao Zedong's Galley (2.20)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 393, 1766 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Mao Zedong's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Mao Zedong's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Mao Zedong's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Mao Zedong's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Mao Zedong's Galley!
Turn 393, 1766 AD: Your Privateer 30 (Moscow) has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 393, 1766 AD: You have trained a Privateer in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 393, 1766 AD: You have trained a Privateer in Yekaterinburg. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 394, 1768 AD: De Gaulle has 180 gold available for trade.
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Roosevelt has 270 gold available for trade.
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) (6.00) vs Roosevelt's Galley (2.20)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 394, 1768 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) has defeated Roosevelt's Galley!
Turn 394, 1768 AD: Your Privateer 27 (Moscow) has destroyed a Galley!

autolog.txt:

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 110/473 (1754 AD) [29-Sep-2009 16:19:31]
Novgorod begins: Privateer (18 turns)
Moscow begins: Privateer (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Harbor (1 turns)
Moscow begins: Privateer (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Settler (9 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: University (11 turns)
Novgorod begins: Barracks (7 turns)
Rostov begins: Privateer (5 turns)
Yaroslavl' begins: Privateer (9 turns)
Yaroslavl' begins: Privateer (9 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (9 turns)
Yaroslavl' begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
100% Research: 157 per turn
0% Culture: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -76 per turn, 132 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 14
Moscow finishes: Harbor
Rostov grows to size 14

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Churchill (England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Free Market'

Turn 111/473 (1756 AD) [29-Sep-2009 17:43:36]
0% Research: 18 per turn
0% Culture: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 94 per turn, 70 in the bank

Turn 112/473 (1758 AD) [29-Sep-2009 18:15:36]
Rostov begins: Harbor (5 turns)
Novgorod begins: Courthouse (4 turns)
Novgorod begins: Barracks (4 turns)
100% Research: 166 per turn
0% Culture: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -75 per turn, 164 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rostov's borders expand
Rostov finishes: National Epic
Yaroslavl' grows to size 6

Turn 113/473 (1760 AD) [29-Sep-2009 18:38:31]
Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Gandhi (India) asks Stalin (Russia) to stop trading with Mao Zedong (China); Stalin REFUSES.
Diplomacy (War Request): Mao Zedong (China) asks Stalin (Russia) to declare war on Churchill (England); Stalin REFUSES.
A Workshop was built near Moscow
A Workshop was built near Novgorod
100% Research: 164 per turn
0% Culture: 34 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -78 per turn, 89 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Privateer
St. Petersburg finishes: Settler
Novgorod grows to size 8
Yaroslavl' finishes: Work Boat
Yekaterinburg grows to size 6

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Ghuzz, Knight 1 (8.50/10) defeats Barbarian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 96.2%)

Turn 114/473 (1762 AD) [29-Sep-2009 20:41:11]
0% Research: 18 per turn
0% Culture: 34 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 86 per turn, 11 in the bank

Turn 115/473 (1764 AD) [29-Sep-2009 21:41:32]
A Fishing Boats was built near Yaroslavl'
100% Research: 169 per turn
0% Culture: 34 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -81 per turn, 97 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Privateer

Turn 116/473 (1766 AD) [29-Sep-2009 22:12:59]
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates Chinese Galley (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking just off shore near Moscow, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (5.28/6) defeats Chinese Galley (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
A Camp was built near Novgorod
Yekaterinburg begins: Barracks (3 turns)
0% Research: 18 per turn
0% Culture: 34 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 87 per turn, 16 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rostov finishes: Privateer
Yaroslavl' finishes: Courthouse
Yekaterinburg finishes: Privateer

Turn 117/473 (1768 AD) [29-Sep-2009 22:36:49]
Diplomacy (Help Request): Mao Zedong (China) asks Stalin (Russia) for Astronomy; Stalin REFUSES.
Yaroslavl' begins: Library (10 turns)
While attacking, Privateer 27 (Moscow) decimates American Galley (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Privateer 27 (Moscow) (4.56/6) defeats American Galley (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
A Camp was built near St. Petersburg

My Personal Notes:

Turn 110 Build Queues+Citizens adjusted
Turn 110 Gandhi Open Borders for Open Borders
Turn 110 Removed 2 Alt X Plots where Gandhi settled on Horse+Churchill settled on Copper
Turn 110 Res 100 157 Bpt 76 Wpt
Turn 111 Barbarian Galley 2 W of BS Ghurz
Turn 111 Res 00 18 Bpt 94 Wpt
Turn 112 Barbarian Horse Archer sighted 5 S+2 E of Gandhi's Pataliptra 10P
Turn 112 Res 100 166 Bpt 75 Wpt
Turn 113 De Gaulle's Caravel located at 5 S+3 W of Pataliputra 10P
Turn 113 Gandhi 4 Wpt for Gold
Turn 113 Gandhi has Printing Press
Turn 113 Gandhi will trade Constitution+WM+80W+convert Islam for 2 of RP+GP+Astro
Turn 113 Privateers 5 total 1 in 1t+3 in 4t+1 in 5t
Turn 113 Res 100 164 Bpt 78 Wpt
Turn 113 Res 100 164 Bpt 82 Wpt
Turn 113 Roosevelt will trade Constitution+WM+230W for 2 of PP+GP+Astro
Turn 113 unclethrill suggested I complete through turn 117+we want the Privateers to complete before Anarchy
Turn 114 Barbarian Longbow died attacking our C2 Knight 8.5 of 10
Turn 114 Gandhi might have Corporation
Turn 114 Gandhi's Galley 3 N+1 E of Pataliputra 10P
Turn 114 Res 00 18 Bpt 86 Wpt
Turn 114 Two Barbarian Workers 1 S of BS Parthian 7P
Turn 115 Gandhi's Galley 4 N+1 E and 2 N+1 W of Pataliputra 10P
Turn 115 Mao Zedong's Galley 1 S+2 W of Xian 6P
Turn 115 Res 100 169 Bpt 81 Wpt
Turn 115 Roosevelt's Galley 2 W of Washington 9P
Turn 116 Destroyed Mao Zedong's Galley 1 S+4 W of Xian 6P
Turn 116 Res 00 18 Bpt 87 Wpt
Turn 116 Roosevelt's Galley in and 2 N+1 E of Washington 10P
Turn 116 Roosevelt will trade Constitution+WM+260W for Printing Press+Gunpowder
Turn 117 Churchill's Galley 1 N+1 W of Bombay
Turn 117 Res 100 171 Bpt 80 Wpt
Turn 117 Roosevelt's Galley in and destroyed 2 N+1 E of Washington 10P
Turn 117 Roosevelt will trade Constitution+WM+270W for Printing Press+Gunpowder
Turn 117 Ending Turn Set with Sugar Island units+Roo Constitution trade+DeG Fur trade to do+Added Dots

I added a bunch of Alt-X Dots. The marginally good ones are near the South Ice. The ones in Dark Brown are not as good and I probably should not have bothered. I left the Dot Maps on; turn them off via Ctrl-X; edit them via Alt-X.

I moved the Yellow Dot 1-W, because it has one more Sugar this way and still has plenty of Grassland for building 1F4H Workshops.

Moscow: Can now build a Settler in 7t due to the two new Workshops; two Workers are 2t from completing a 5H Workshop on Plains. We should build 2 more like it on the two other Plans Tiles.

Heroic Epic in Yekaterinburg: I'm positive that its ample Grassland and two Seafood Tiles can together provide much more Hammers than Novgorod even with a Levee (adds 1H per River Tile). Workshops are hard to beat at our Research level while running Caste System.

Bagged two Galleys (Mao Zedong's and Rooselt's) via Privateer. Moved one Privateer into Rostov to heal for 1t (heal command already issued - ready again turn 119). The other damaged Privateer (4.6/6.0) should move to visual range of our nearest City Sites that Roosevelt can get at and heal in a Shore Tile in neutral territory. I'm not sure our Medic 2 Frigate should be used, since we may still need it for defense against Barbarian Galleys. Maybe another Caravel could be upgraded to a Frigate to free the Medic 2 Frigate for healing Privateers or just build a Frigate.

In my personal Notes, I sited several pairs of Galleys. We may need a few more Privateers (at least three to make a total of eight) to clear out all these Galleys. I estimate about 16 Galleys prowling about stealing our City Sites.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 30, 2009, 03:47 AM

I opened the save. Everything seem to go as planned.
The color you used is difficult to see, anyway...
Your opinions on the settler schedule i proposed?
Constitution is still on the table and still as you posted. We need it and the offer is good, being on Emperor. Roos will still need RP to get rifling.

Let's take it and revolt next turn, after Novo has completed its Privateer. If we work the 2 :hammers: tundra it will be ready next turn, then we can revolt.

I guess we'll skip nationhood, we need badly the benefits of bureau in Moscow, mainly for settlers.
Also, better stay on Merc. Caste is out of question, if possible we'll run 'til the endgame.

Before GB starts we need to officially schedule next 6 cities and define if the settler has to settle in place or move 1E. I'll post later my opinions on this, possibly together with the other 5 spots.

BLubmuz

Sep 30, 2009, 05:16 AM

We know well the effect of Representation, don't worry.
Aside the Happiness benefit, it's just great while running a spec economy like ours.
The 3 :science: added to any specialist will mean no less than 36 raw beakers after Sugar will be founded, paying back the turn of anarchy in a single turn. At 0 res we produce 18 bpt, when with Repr. we'll arrive around 60 bpt.

I propose to run at 0 research until after the revolution.
I noticed we "discovered a new source of copper" near Rostov. Great, our Mining Inc will be just great.
We need to set our research to take count of possible conpetition for the corporations, so maybe our path to Fission will not be that straight. Opinions needed on this, it can be the key to success take the right decision.

About Sugar 1
If we settle where you propose, we're almost forced to settle one spot E, or we risk someone will arrive there.
In the case we want settle 2 cities, the best choice for the first is ON the sugar N of the mountain. Then the second (mandatory) has to go 1W of where the settler is.
In case we want just one, the spot i proposed (1E of the settler) is better, since the PH can be windmilled.
Before you ask me, settling on sugar gives + 1F.

I'm slightly for a single city, but i can be convinced.

5 next cities
Considering a single city on sugar, otherwise we must insert a new item in the list, i tend to agree on settle the Whale before Sugar 2. Our privateers can take care of any galley wandering around, so we're safe for that. Unless already settled or with a galley close.

Pillaging knight
I'd like to see the center of that small continent, then we can bring him home. Or keep him on the galleon, lurking for some workers :evil:
A great satisfaction pillaging on the barbs. Sweet revenge.

Troops, more Troops
It's not time yet for this, literally, but some LB for the new settlers is mandatory, possibly produced with barracks.

HE
so STW propose it in Yek? I think is better, that city start looking good.
Anyway a Uni after completed the current queue is mandatory in Novo.

Espionage
Time to set Mao back to 0 and accumulate points versus G, dG and C.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 30, 2009, 01:27 PM

Your opinions on the settler schedule i proposed?

I'll take another look later today.

Constitution is still on the table and still as you posted. We need it and the offer is good, being on Emperor. Roos will still need RP to get rifling.

Let's take it and revolt next turn, after Novo has completed its Privateer. If we work the 2 :hammers: tundra it will be ready next turn, then we can revolt.

I suggest taking the Constitution deal from Roosevelt before we end the current turn (117). Next turn would make more sense for consummating the deal and immediately revolving Representation, but I'm concerned Roosevelt may get Gunpowder from someone else and we'd need to trade Astronomy instead. So let's take this deal right now:

Constitution + World Map + 270W for Printing Press + Gunpowder

I guess we'll skip nationhood, we need badly the benefits of bureau in Moscow, mainly for settlers.

Current effects of Bureaucracy on Moscow: +13 Hammers and +18 Commerce
Hammer Base = 26; x 1.75 = 45; x 1.25 = 32; difference = 13
Commerce Base = 36; x 1.50 = 54; x 1.00 = 36; difference = 18

Nationhood would provide the option of drafting (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/drafting.php) three standard foot soldiers per turn, +25% Espionage and +2 Happiness from Barracks. A drafted soldier comes with 1/2 the experience, costs 3 Unhappiness for 15t and 1 Population for Rifleman / 2 Population for Infantry / 3 Population for Mechanized Infantry and the City drafted from needs to be a minimum of 5 Population after the Draft (for example, 6 Population in a City is required before drafting a Rifleman).

I still find the +2 Happiness from Barracks tempting and when Emancipation is adopted by a few AI Civs we may need the extra Happiness to continue using Caste System.

However, Bureaucracy is perhaps too powerful to shun yet in favour of Nationhood; Comparison of Bureaucracy and No Bureaucracy in Moscow - building Settler:

14P Bureaucracy: Settler 342H / (45 Hpt + 5 Fpt) = 6.84 turns; Commerce 54 (right now)
14P ..Nationhood: Settler 342H / (32 Hpt + 5 Fpt) = 9.24 turns; Commerce 36 (right now)

14P Bureaucracy: Settler 342H / (53 Hpt + 3 Fpt) = 6.11 turns; Commerce 51 (+1 5H Workshop in 2t)
14P ..Nationhood: Settler 342H / (38 Hpt + 3 Fpt) = 8.34 turns; Commerce 34 (+1 5H Workshop in 2t)

14P Bureaucracy: Settler 342H / (63 Hpt + 1 Fpt) = 5.34 turns; Commerce 48 (+2 5H Workshop in 7t)
14P ..Nationhood: Settler 342H / (45 Hpt + 1 Fpt) = 7.43 turns; Commerce 32 (+2 5H Workshop in 7t)

14P Bureaucracy: Settler 342H / (71 Hpt + 0 Fpt) = 4.82 turns; Commerce 43 (+3 5H Workshop & +1 3F1C Farm in 16t)
14P ..Nationhood: Settler 342H / (51 Hpt + 0 Fpt) = 6.71 turns; Commerce 29 (+3 5H Workshop & +1 3F1C Farm in 16t)

Each increase in Population from the current 14P up to the 18P Cap would have the same Hammers above corresponding to the number of Plains Workshops and G Farm completed; the following incremental Commerce improvements could be worked:

18P Bureaucracy: Commerce 52/54 (2 Farms/1 Farm & +3 Shore)
18P ..Nationhood: Commerce 35/36 (2 Farms/1 Farm & +3 Shore)

17P Bureaucracy: Commerce 49/51 (2 Farms/1 Farm & +2 Shore)
17P ..Nationhood: Commerce 33/34 (2 Farms/1 Farm & +2 Shore)

15P Bureaucracy: Commerce 46/48 (2 Farms/1 Farm & +1 Shore)
15P ..Nationhood: Commerce 31/32 (2 Farms/1 Farm & +1 Shore)

14P Bureaucracy: Commerce 43 (working 2 G Farms & 0 Shore)
14P ..Nationhood: Commerce 29 (working 2 G Farms & 0 Shore)

The caveat is Bureaucracy benefits only the Capital and is a High maintenance Civic, whereas Nationhood benefits all Cities, except a Draft require 6-8 Population (6 for Rifleman), and it is a low maintenance Civic. With Nationhood, a few Cities over 5 Population with good growth, and a high Happiness Cap, it is actually more efficient than Slavery for building foot soldiers. Plus, one can still run Caste System while converting excess Food into foot soldiers. Of course drafting is limited by the 3 Unhappiness for 15t, except for a City with Globe Theatre which is always a good Drafting City, assuming sufficient growth. It may even make sense to build Globe Theatre in a City with high Growth as a Drafting City. Also, 2 Happiness per Barracks is great especially for an Aggressive leader (+100% Hammer bonus for Barracks). The +25% Espionage bonus is also quite significant and useful for seeing AI Civs' F9 graphs.

I agree that we probably want to stick with Bureaucracy for now, but we should reconsider Nationhood when we need +2 Happiness from Barracks and have enough Cities to rotate Drafting around.

Also, better stay on Merc. Caste is out of question, if possible we'll run 'til the endgame.

We aren't running enough specialists to discard Mercantilism in favor of Free Market. Free Market would replace domestic trade routes with foreign trade routes (roughly doubling Commerce from them) plus it adds a trade route. This would be a significnat boost to both Research and Wealth generation, but the lost of the free Mercantilism Specialist is won't probably slow Great Person generation too much for this stage of the Game.

A Golden Age would eliminate Anarchy and provide +100% GPP for 12t, but would require a Great Person. I'm not really suggesting it; we need to ensure we can generate enough Great Scientists and other Great People for bulbing purposes and creating our two critical Corporations before we use them for other purposes.

Before GB starts we need to officially schedule next 6 cities and define if the settler has to settle in place or move 1E. I'll post later my opinions on this, possibly together with the other 5 spots.

Yes, the five sites (not Brown) added near the Southern Ice are the only ones I added worth serious consideration. All the Dark Brown Sites I added either had one Resource near Moscow or two or more, but they would definitely be the last to settle, if only to keep the AI Civs from settling there first.

The Dark Green Site in the Southern Ice with Crab and two Silver is the only one moderately worthwhile that you missed in your list of 12 City Sites.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 30, 2009, 03:21 PM

I suggest taking the Constitution deal from Roosevelt before we end the current turn (117). Next turn would make more sense for consummating the deal and immediately revolving Representation, but I'm concerned Roosevelt may get Gunpowder from someone else and we'd need to trade Astronomy instead. So let's take this deal right now:
Absolutely, the first thing to do. I meant we wait 1 turn to revolt to let the privateer complete. Every single turn we don't run Repr is a waste, but we need that ship.
But, again, this trade has to be the first thing to do once started the TS.

Constitution + World Map + 270W for Printing Press + GunpowderSince every civic change costs one turn (BTW i forgot which is the limit for this. I know that after a certain number of cities you must add 1 more turn, but probably if you revolt to 2 civics you still need 2) we can wait. But we need to test which is the limit. For now, with Representation we have not a problem of happiness, but when (not if) G will switch to Emancipation, we can consider Nationhood. Its low civic cost can partially compensate the bureucracy loss.

UT ran a test comparing MErc to FM: the results was in favor of Merc. But at present all the AIs but G are running Merc, so we probably can test again if more AIs will switch to it. But with Repr. I doubt FM can be better than Merc.
We must revolt once we (hopefully) found out first Corporation, but we can decide TS by TS.

For next one, Representation.

BTW, better build the Jewish monastery in Moscow: it will help research for awhile and we can also build J. missionaries. FR can be an help in case of more religions and happy problems.
About GPersons and GAges: next GP from Rostov will be a GS or less probably a GE.
After that we can run merchants and we can pop 2: 1 for Sushi and another one for a GAge.

There's another decision we can plan: we're only 7 points from a GG. Do we use him as a super healer, attached to a mace to promote rifle or we settle him?

Remember the sites schedule. It has to be approved and detailed before GB post his PPP.
Mainly the immediate settle in Sugar: look at what i proposed.

greatbeyond

Sep 30, 2009, 04:04 PM

I'll have a chance in about 12 hrs to compile the PPP and post it. It looks like a great turnset STW.

BLubmuz

Sep 30, 2009, 05:08 PM

I'll have a chance in about 12 hrs to compile the PPP and post it. It looks like a great turnset STW.GB, While compiling your PPP, please take a look on the proposed main sites, first of all the one where the settler is and post some opinion. Your PPP will not being affected by the decisions we'll take on the sites, 'cause we need to build the settlers and you have only one ready before the end of your TS. I posted a list of the main sites in # 706 (previous page)

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 30, 2009, 05:43 PM

I noticed we "discovered a new source of copper" near Rostov. Great, our Mining Inc will be just great.

So we should be giving higher priority to City Sites with multiple (or even one) Mining, Inc. resources (Coal, Iron, Copper, Gold and Silver). Mining, Inc. provides 1.5 Hpt for every single one of these Resources we own or gain in trade. Its very hard to get Coal, Iron and Copper in trade, but Gold and Silver might be possible.

City Sites (+ denotes Mining, Inc. Resources; * denotes Sid's Sushi, Inc. Resources):

Name Location Resources
=========== =================== ==================
Sugar Island 1 6-N, 4-W of Coventry 3 Sugar; Copper+
Silver Cov 1 5-S, 3-W of Coventry Crab*; 2 Silver+
Silver Cov 2 5-S, 3-W of Coventry Crab*(shared); Silver+
Copper Gandhi 3-S, 8-W of Novgorod Crab*; Copper+
Whale Iron 6-S, 1-W of Chinook BS Fish*; Whale; Iron+
Crab Iron 6-S, 5-E of Chinook BS Crab*; Iron+

Stone Pen 2-N, 9-E of Chinook BS Clam*; Stone
Mable Island 2-N, 15-E of Nubian Mao Fish*; Clam*; Marble

Whale Pen 0-N, 5-E of Yaroslavl' Fish*; Crab* (BS); Whale
Fish Mao West? 3-N, 10-E of Nubian Mao 2 Fish*; Crab*
Sugar Island 2 0-N, 13-E of Atlanta 2 Sugar
Sheep Pen 2-S, 9-E of Chinook BS Sheep; Whale
Fish US West? 4-N, 4-E of Atlanta Fish*
Fish US East? 1-S, 7-E of Atlanta Fish*
Fish Mao West? 6-N, 6-E of Nubian Mao Fish*

Plan to build our National Park (405H; +3 Cpt; +1 GS GPP) on Sugar Island 2. It has at least a total of 10 Jungles and Forests. Each such Jungle and Forest with a Forest Preserve would provide a free Specialist. It may be worth spending a Great Engineer to build it.

Priority #1 Sites are those threatened by AI Settlers in Galleys. Our Privateers should minimize this risk down to near zero to prevent further "theft" of our City Sites, at least until the AI Civs complete Astronomy. After that point our Privateers will pair up and blockade AI Ports perhaps.

We want to settle "Stone Pen" (Peninsula) in time to build a Quarry on Stone prior to starting Oxford University.

Priority #2 Sites are those with Mining, Inc. Resources. That's seven more Mining, Inc. Resources in addition to the seven we already have (we need to cancel the Gold and Silver export deals we have when we get Mining, Inc up in a few Cities). A total of 14 Mining, Inc. + whatever Coal is revealed by Steam Power will provide 14 x 1.5 = 21 Base Hammers in every City with Mining, Inc. We will want both Mining, Inc. and Sid's Sushi founded in Moscow so the revenue from all Cities with these two Corporations will be multiplied by all Wealth multiplying buildings, including Market (+25%), Bank (+50%), Grocer (+25%) and Wall Street (+100%).

Priority #3 Sites are those with maximum Hammer potential, probably via Workshops and other Hammer improvements, with sufficient Food to support all Citizens.

Priority #4 Sites are those with several Food resources that can build Settlers and Workers somewhat quickly.

Priority #5 Sites are those left over and not marked in Dark Brown.

Priority #6 Sites are the Dark Brown Sites not listed above.

Priority #7 Sites are any unmarked Sites with at least one Food Resource.

Priority #8 Sites are any unmarked Sites with at least one Resource of any kind, except a Mining, Inc. Resource (which should be priority #2) and Food.

Priority #9 Sites are any unmarked Sites without any Resources.

We need to set our research to take count of possible competition for the corporations, so maybe our path to Fission will not be that straight. Opinions needed on this, it can be the key to success take the right decision.

We can probably trade for Corporation when we need it. Mining, Inc. requires Railroad and prerequisites Steam Power & Steel and Sid's Sushi requires Medicine and prerequisite Biology is already on our bulbing path to (sideways) Fission.

Pursuing Mining, Inc.:

So, essentially, we need Steam Power, Steel, and Railroad to found Mining, Inc. We may as continue with Assembly Line to build Factories and Infantry.

Pursuing Sid's Sushi:

We probably don't need Sid's Sushi until Global Warming takes hold, so let's wait a bit, but don't let the AI get Medicine first.

Research Recommendation: Bee-line to Fission with bulbing detour through Biology. When we complete Fission, maybe the AI will be willing to trade Steam Power and/or Steel? We need to find Uranium as quickly as possible, Mine it and start building The Manhattan Project.

This may be a good point to stop and do some quick tests to determine the best Research path for our ultimate goal.

About Sugar 1
If we settle where you propose, we're almost forced to settle one spot E, or we risk someone will arrive there.
In the case we want settle 2 cities, the best choice for the first is ON the sugar N of the mountain. Then the second (mandatory) has to go 1W of where the settler is.
In case we want just one, the spot i proposed (1E of the settler) is better, since the PH can be windmilled.
Before you ask me, settling on sugar gives + 1F.

I'm slightly for a single city, but i can be convinced.

So the AI will plant a City on the sliver of Land I'm leaving? That won't happen at least until the AI completes Astronomy.

Although, I don't really like it, maybe a second City 1-NE of the Mountain on a PH?

We want Cities with abundant Food, so I think a City on Sugar Island 1 should have 2 Sugar or 1 Fish.

Covering an Island with our Culture isn't usually a problem on this Map, but this Island requires at least two Cities to do so and that leaves Fish outside the BFC of either one.

5 next cities
Considering a single city on sugar, otherwise we must insert a new item in the list, i tend to agree on settle the Whale before Sugar 2. Our privateers can take care of any galley wandering around, so we're safe for that. Unless already settled or with a galley close.

What happens to our ecomy, if we take the Island with Crab and 3 Silver via two Cities, Peninsula south of Gandhi with Crab and Copper, and the two Cities with Iron SE of the Barbarian States. We would be set for Mining, Inc. with 7 more Resources, total of 14, not counting Coal.

Pillaging knight
I'd like to see the center of that small continent, then we can bring him home. Or keep him on the galleon, lurking for some workers :evil:
A great satisfaction pillaging on the barbs. Sweet revenge.

From my Personal Notes:

Turn 114 Two Barbarian Workers 1 S of BS Parthian 7P

HE
so STW propose it in Yek? I think is better, that city start looking good.
Anyway a Uni after completed the current queue is mandatory in Novo.

Unfortunately, Novgorod doesn't have enough Food to support as many Hammer Tiles as Yekaterinburg can. With 10 Population in Yekaterinburg (it needs 4 more), it can run free Engineer (2H), 2 x 5F2C (Seafood), 1F4H (Horse), 2F2H1C (Windmill), 6 x 1F4H (G Workshops) net 1 Fpt and 32 Base Hammers pt. With Heroic Epic and Forge, 32 Hpt becomes 32 x 2.25 = 72 Hpt for Military unit builds.

Espionage
Time to set Mao back to 0 and accumulate points versus G, dG and C.

Maybe build a few more Courthouses near Home for an extra +2 Ept each.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Sep 30, 2009, 06:09 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 30, 2009, 07:05 PM

I'll have a chance in about 12 hrs to compile the PPP and post it. It looks like a great turnset STW.

Thanks, greatbeyond! I worked extra hard micromanaging that TS.

Privateers and AI galleys and Caravels:

I hope the Privateers can stop these rouge Galleys in Time from moving more Settlers than the two we know have already succeeded (Gandhi's Horse City and Chuchill's Coventry).

Possible locations of AI Galleys might be deduced from sightings in my Personal Notes. Here's a summary of my Galley sighting (Mao's Galley and one of Roosevelt's already sunk):

Turn 114 Gandhi's Galley 3 N+1 E of Pataliputra 10P
Turn 115 Gandhi's Galley 4 N+1 E and 2 N+1 W of Pataliputra 10P
Turn 115 Mao Zedong's Galley 1 S+2 W of Xian 6P (sunk in t116)
Turn 115 Roosevelt's Galley 2 W of Washington 9P
Turn 116 Destroyed Mao Zedong's Galley 1 S+4 W of Xian 6P
Turn 116 Roosevelt's Galley in and 2 N+1 E of Washington 10P (2nd one sunk in t117)
Turn 117 Churchill's Galley 1 N+1 W of Bombay
Turn 117 Roosevelt's Galley in and destroyed 2 N+1 E of Washington 10P

I took the strategy of ignoring AI Caravels (they can be targeted when we clear and stop the flow of AI Galleys to our City Sites) and attacking only Galleys to avoid damaging the Privateers too much. I did have my lead Privateer going East skip one Galley that was almost certain to be vulnerable to the second Privateer the next turn; it was sunk; I wanted the lead Privateer to continue making progress West and avoid damage so it would be fully ready for action closer to our City Sites.

There are two major flows of Galleys:

1) East of Roosevelt around the North End of the Island with Atlanta and East hugging the Island chains East and eventually North.

2) South along Gandhi's West Coast past Churchill's Coventry and both West and South from there.

2a) In Novgorod, be sure to move a Citizen from 2F2C (Shore) to 2H (THF) so the Privateer will have enough Hammers to complete next turn. I would sent this Privateer South of Gandhi and go always West to catch Galleys near the chain of Islands near the Southern Ice, possibly passing to the South of Coventry and Gandhi's Horse City on the Hunt! I doubt the AI will settle on Ice, so I would spent enough time to ensure our Ice City Sites are clear of Galleys.

Sometime in your turn set, the Privateers should attack and sink Caravels, before the AI gets Astronomy and Chemistry (DeG has already) and upgrade them to Frigates.

Privateers and Universities:

I'd like to see progress in getting five Universities, but maybe you could build 3 more Privateers in your TS. Maybe interrupt the Settler in Moscow when a Privateer could be built in 2t and try to arrange Citizens so Moscow grows from 14P to 15P while the Privateer is being built. Maybe one more Privateer is enough (three on each of the two Galley fronts), because I'm not sure where you can build them without slowing progress to Oxford University too much. I also restricted Growth in many Cities to build the Privateers as reasonably fast as possible. Maybe some of the slower growing Cities could have there growth boosted, especially St. Petersburg where I actually went into negative growth (-1 Fpt) to keep the Settler on schedule and free the Cow Tile for use by Novgorod to really push it out fast.

greatbeyond, have fun killing those Galleys with our Privateer fleet!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Sep 30, 2009, 07:25 PM

STW, shortly 'cause it's late: would you please add a priority # for any city to your <code>? It's impossible to understand which is #1, 2 and so on by your post.

Also, not clear your thought on sugar island. But i think that even if one city is not the best possible city, better avoid to build 2.

They are already in the decreasing order of priority; at least close enough as far as I'm concerned. The major variable is getting a Stone Quarry before Oxford University and Marble Quarry for anything that is faster with it that we might build.

I understand your reason for wanting to settle on Sugar Island 1 1-E of the Settler. I just don't like the fact that it then has just 1 Sugar in its BFC. One problem is the AI can still settle on the Northernmost Sugar, if we settle as you suggest and the Ring 3 Culture doesn't pop in time.

Again, the AI won't reach Sugar Island 1 until it has Galleons, so we could just build Culture and two Artists until the Ring 3 Cultural pops. It would take 150C / 9 Cpt = 16.67t; what a crazy idea; building nothing but Culture for 17t. As crazy as it seems, it may be better than building a second Settler for the Island.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 01, 2009, 01:33 AM

I'll try to merge our codes in a single post to compare them, to prepare a definitive list.

You seem to agree on settle only one city on Sugar 1. But we can do better than build culture. Send a missionary or 2 so we can be ready for another city, build a theatre.

Remember that our privateers can easily take care of galleons too. Only frigates can counter them.

unclethrill

Oct 01, 2009, 07:02 AM

I love the privateer work but we still need to focus on getting the settlers out. Not only can we not hold off the AI forever but we need time for the cities to mature. We are going to have to hold on to every city to finish this game (No City Razing) so we need our economy to be rockin' before then. The only way to do this is to get a decent number of cities and have the infrastructure built in them to support a lot of sub-standard, recently nuked cities. We need 10-12 cities ASAP. Research will suffer a little but Rep. will make up for some of it and in the long run it will be worth it. The teams that are ahead of us have likely gotten more cities down than us. Their economies have to be tanked right now but they will recover. We have a well established economy right now and we have to accept the fact that it will tank slightly during expansion but it has to be done and done soon if we want a chance to do well.

BTW. Great TS STW!

Can't wait to see GB's plan.

These next 20-30 turns are going to make or break our game. If we do thing perfect, we can win but if we lose focus or mismanage turns, we will finish middle of the pack again.

Lets go out there and win one for the Gipper! (or for BLubz)

BLubmuz

Oct 01, 2009, 10:10 AM

unclethrill

Oct 01, 2009, 11:50 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gipp

The first paragraph should explain the quote. In the US, it is an often used quote when you want a team to pull together and do everything possible to win.

Then again, maybe you do get the quote since Gipp died and you want to be alive!

greatbeyond

Oct 01, 2009, 01:01 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 01, 2009, 01:31 PM

I gather both my and STW codes so you can compare them. i added a # to STW one for reference.
Mine:# location distance resouces new resources
1 SugarIsland 1 24W sugar, copper
2 SugarIsland 2 30E 9N sugar *2
3 Whales 31E 5S whales, sheep
4 Whales north 31E clams stone
5 polar 24E 18N fish*2,crabs ---
6 Marble 29E 17N clams,fish marble

Revised City Site priority based on getting a good National Park site, new Resources, Land to build Workshops on and Sites offering little more than Mining, Inc. Resources:

# Name Location Resources Other
= ============== ================= ==================== ==================
1 Sugar Island 1 6-N, 4-W Coventry 3 Sugar; Copper+ 2S 1C 2G 4P 1GH
1S 1C 2G 3P 1GH 3PH
2 Sugar Island 2 0-N, 13-E Atlanta 2 Sugar National Park
2S 7G 2P 2PH 4F+6J
3 Sheep Penn 2-S, 9-E Chinook Sheep; Whale 1S 1W 6P |2P 1GH 5F
4 Stone Penn 2-N, 9-E Chinook Clam*; Stone 1C 1S 1G 4P 3F
5 Mable Island 2-N, 15-E Nubian Fish*; Clam*; Marble
1F 1C 1M 3G 1GH 2F
6 Silver Cov 1 5-S, 3-W Coventry Crab*; 2 Silver+ 1C 2S 4S 1SH
7 Fish Mao West? 3-N, 10-E Nubian 2 Fish*; Crab* 2F 1C 2P 1F

8 Fish US West? 4-N, 4-E Atlanta Fish* 1F 4G 2P 3F
9 Fish US East? 1-S, 7-E Atlanta Fish* 1F 4G 2P 1F+2J

a Whale Penn 0-N, 5-E Yarosl. Fish*; ~Crab*; Whale 1F 1W ~1C 3S 2SH
b Silver Cov 2 5-S, 3-W Coventry |Crab*; Silver+ |1C 1S 2T 5S |1S
c Copper Gandhi 3-S, 8-W Novgorod Crab*; Copper+ 1C 1C 2P ~1P 2S
d Whale Iron 6-S, 1-W Chinook Fish*; Whale; Iron+ 1F 1W 1I 1S
e Crab Iron 6-S, 5-E Chinook Crab*; Iron+ 1C 1I 4S
f Fish Mao West? 6-N, 6-E Nubian Fish* 1F 2P 1T 1S 3TH 1SH 1F

~ = denotes Culture struggle to get
| = Resourse shared with a better City Site
Other: BFC Coverage excluding Shore/Ocean; First entries are Resources;
The following entries are number of Terrain Types; Followed by Forest + Jungle
G = Grassland; P = Plains; T = Tundra; S = Snow; H = Hill; F = Forest; J = Jung.

1 Sugar 1, ready to settle. If we agree on a single city, settle 1E of settler.
2 Next settler can go in my #3, to hook whales and sheep (9E, 2S of chinook) (STW #c)
Good locations:
3 Sugar 2 (my #2, 11W, 5S of Chartres) (STW #b)
4 stone (my #4, 9E, 2N of chinook)
5 marble (my #6, 2-N, 15-E of Nubian Mao) (STW #8)
6 Silver2 (STW #1, 5-S, 3-W of Coventry)
7 Polar (my #5, 3-N, 10-E of Nubian Mao) (STW #a)

I can't see more valuable sites.
I marked 8 good sites, 2 are already settled by the AI, the others just to see what is doable.
STW marked 15 sites, 5 I already marked, 1 i missed.

In my proposal I kept all the good ones. Settling them we'll arrive to 13 cities. The others are really rubbish, even if they access to some useful resources. Included the one STW proposed in our continent.
The last one will have some problem of production, but it grants 3 seafood.
There can be a 14th one, NE of this last, which accesses a fish and has a decent prodution thanks to 4 hills.

We must agree and officially define this plan, then i'll post a synthesis in my #3.

I agree with the top seven City Sites listed.

My re-evaluation of City Sites matches BLubmuz's except I have Sugar 2 as #2 priority because it would make a great site for the National Park. Sugar 2 has a total of 4 Forests and 6 Jungles in its BFC. Building National Park and 8-10 Preserves would provide 8-10 free Specialists; we probably want to improve at least 1 Sugar for growth. It won't be long before we have Biology and we probably could justify using an extra Great Engineer to build the National Park, otherwise it would take a very long time to build. EDIT: We can start building Preserves after we complete Scientific Method, so all Preserves could be completed by a few Workers by the time we complete Biology and can rush National Park.

Cities 8 and 9 in my list may be worthwhile due the large number of Workshops that can be built on these two City Sites.

We may also want the "crappy" City Sites that provide a Mining, Inc. Resource (b, c, d & e), since each such Resource adds 1.5 Base Hpt in every City with Mining, Inc.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 01, 2009, 01:31 PM

Then again, maybe you do get the quote since Gipp died and you want to be alive!I didn't know this, so i googled.
Now i know and since this was one of his last sentecies...
TS PPP

GS is due in 4T in Rostov, what do we want to do with her? Bulb SM
The settler will be ready in 4 too, so better wait to settle his city to squeeze some more beakers from the bulb.

Techs - finish Rifling, then SM ( how many turns do we need to put into it if we are going to use our GS to bulb part?), then Physics
This will go far beyong your TS

Cities:
Sugar Isle 1 - Settle 1NE of Copper, we can get at least 1 other good city on the island.
You don't read the posts. We're discussing if settle one or two cities there.
I'm for settle just one, but i can be convinced. But if we settle 2, the first one must go on the sugar N of the mountain.
We also need your opinions on the cities planning. I'd like to have this plan defined before you start.

Moscow - Switch to Privateer 3T, finish Settler 6T, Frrigate 3T or Privateer 3T.

St Pete - finish University 8T, then
Better some LB there, we're short of troops in the mainland.
Novgorod - Privateer 1T, CH 4T, Settler 27T ( but I propose chopping the forests with out Beavers to the East and SE to hurry the Settler)
27 turns are too much. Library/University, but after some missionary

Rostov - Harbor 5T, Settler 13T OR Privateer 5T ( I favor the Privateer as it gives Rostov a chance to grow more)
Yes, reverse: privateer, then settler

Yaroslavl - Library 10T, Privateer 9T or Frigate 10T

Yekaterinburg - Barracks 3T, Worker 4T OR Settler18T (Using two forest chops to speed the Settler), Stable 6T
Stable? what to we do with it?

Civics - revolt to Rep at the end of this turn
No, after Novo completes its privateer
You can built it in 1 turn working more hammers, tested!

Knight - pillage BarbsMove him in the center, there's a city i'd like to see. Of course pillage while moving, mainly cottages.

unclethrill

Oct 01, 2009, 01:45 PM

TS PPP

Observations:

GS is due in 4T in Rostov, what do we want to do with her? Bulb SM

Churchill and Mao are at war. Hopefully Roosevelt will join in against Mao and DeGaulle will ally with Mao.

Techs - finish Rifling, then SM ( how many turns do we need to put into it if we are going to use our GS to bulb part?), then Physics
See STW's earlier post to see how much the GS will bulb based on our pop. We will need several turns so we will likely have the GS before you have enough turns on SM.

Cities:
Sugar Isle 1 - Settle 1NE of Copper, we can get at least 1 other good city on the island.

I don't think we have decided where to settle this guy yet. The location for this settler will depend on if we decide we want one or two cities on the island. You need to hold off on playing until we get a concensus (ie. BLubz agrees with us) on this city spot.

The Worker will create a Plantation on the Sugar to the NW. Scout will go 3E on the PH for overwatch. Mace will go to the new city. Galleon will head back toward Pateliputra to pick up the next Settler.

Moscow - Switch to Privateer 3T, finish Settler 6T, Frrigate 3T or Privateer 3T.

St Pete - finish University 8T, Observatory 8T

Novgorod - Privateer 1T, CH 4T, Settler 27T ( but I propose chopping the forests with out Beavers to the East and SE to hurry the Settler)

Rostov - Harbor 5T, Settler 13T OR Privateer 5T ( I favor the Privateer as it gives Rostov a chance to grow more)

Yaroslavl - Library 10T, Privateer 9T or Frigate 10T

Yekaterinburg - Barracks 3T, Worker 4T OR Settler18T (Using two forest chops to speed the Settler), Stable 6T

This gets us 1 settler out on your TS. I would really like to see 2 in this TS and 2 in the next at least.

Workers:
Workers 22 and 4 -finish WS 2T, (2N of Moscow), move 1N of Moscow and build WS, 1E build WS, 1W2S farm GL

Worker 24 - move 1S and farm FP for St Pete, move to 1N1E and farm GL

Worker 1 - chop forests 3E and 1E3S of Novgorod, farm GL 1N of Novogorod

Worker 2 - chop forests 1S and 1S1W of Yekat. Farm GL 2e and 3E of St Pete (for Yekat)

Diplomacy - make trade for Constitution with Roosevelt that STW suggested
Trade Lib to Mao for WM and 230G
refuse all free tech demands
refuse to DOW
resource demands - ?
renegotiate with Degaulle to get his remaining 5G per turn.
reset espionage to even among all but DG

Civics - revolt to Rep at the end of this turn

BLubz wants us to wait until the Privateer in Novo is done before we revolt.

Units -

All Privateers: If not attacking, use last turn to blockade a port.

As long as they are in the right spots at the end of each turn to see any rogue galleys out there.

Privateer 31 (4N3W of Bombay) go after English Galley 1NW of Bombay. Patrol this area.
Privateer 32 patrol east toward NY
Privateer 27 (2E of Wash.) go 1SE to neutral waters and heal. Then patrol area between Boston and Washington.
Privateer 30 - heals the patrols straits between Bombay and Hastings
Caravel 14 - patrols area east of moscow to give early warning of any galleys headed south
Caravel 1 - moves east to area SW of Parthion to pillage/fog bust/sink galleys
Knight - pillage Barbs

Most of it looks real good. I think you need to hold off on playing until we make a final decision on the location of the sugar city.

Also, after you pickup the settler, where will you be moving him? I don't think we have a clearly defined 2cd city spot yet.

Be sure to make the trade for Const . before you hit end turn on the current turn. The same trade may not be available on the next turn.

BLubmuz

Oct 01, 2009, 01:48 PM

Revised City Site priority based on getting a good National Park site, new Resources, Land to build Workshops on and Sites offering little more than Mining, Inc. Resources:

My re-evaluation of City Sites matches BLubmuz's except I have Sugar 2 as #2 priority because it would make a great site for the National Park. Sugar 2 has a total of 4 Forests and 6 Jungles in its BFC. Building National Park and 8-10 Preserves would provide 8-10 free Specialists; we probably want to improve at least 1 Sugar for growth. It won't be long before we have Biology and we probably could justify using an extra Great Engineer to build the National Park, otherwise it would take a very long time to build.

Cities 8 and 9 in my list may be worthwhile due the large number of Workshops that can be built on these two City Sites.

We may also want the "crappy" City Sites that provide a Mining, Inc. Resource (b, c, d & e), since each such Resource adds 1.5 Base Hpt in every City with Mining, Inc.

Sun Tzu WuAlright, if we agree on the seven Main sites, we agree too on a single city on Sugar 1, right?
We'll be busy for a bunch of TSs settling those 7 spots, then we can discuss the rest, say when 5 will be settled.

After Mining Inc and Sushi, any city, even on a 1-tile island can be great. But we need:
1) to found them
2) to build enough executives
3) to pay an astronomic maintenance

first build in new cities has to be a CH.

If possible any settler must go together with a missionary, to speed borders exp.

About Sugar 2, it was also my #2, but UT suggested to go for the whales first.
I tend to agree with him.
But the 2 sugars must be improved! this let 5 forests and 4 jungles. the forests can be lumbermilled first, then converted to FP.
But spending a GE on the NP? we must pop a bunch of them. But remember, we're industrious and this can help.

unclethrill

Oct 01, 2009, 01:50 PM

1 Sugar 1, ready to settle. If we agree on a single city, settle 1E of settler.
2 Next settler can go in my #3, to hook whales and sheep (9E, 2S of chinook) (STW #c)
Good locations:
3 Sugar 2 (my #2, 11W, 5S of Chartres) (STW #b)
4 stone (my #4, 9E, 2N of chinook)
5 marble (my #6, 2-N, 15-E of Nubian Mao) (STW #8)
6 Silver2 (STW #1, 5-S, 3-W of Coventry)
7 Polar (my #5, 3-N, 10-E of Nubian Mao) (STW #a)

I like this list and think we need to get these cities down ASAP.

I vote for one city on the sugar island.

BLubmuz

Oct 01, 2009, 01:59 PM

Most of it looks real good. I think you need to hold off on playing until we make a final decision on the location of the sugar city.

Also, after you pickup the settler, where will you be moving him? I don't think we have a clearly defined 2nd city spot yet.

Be sure to make the trade for Const . before you hit end turn on the current turn. The same trade may not be available on the next turn.I can't quote your "reds", but:
GS: we have to balance maintenance costs with beakers added by pop: every pop point counts 4.5 for a GS, so if we wait too much and our cities are not growing fast enough or new cities are not to be founded soon, better renounce to some beaker and pay less in maintenance.

It seems STW agrees with me to settle only one city on Sugar1.
You don't expressed an opinion yet!
edit: you did! so, OK the settler can move 1E and settle this same turn.

And, since we're 3 in agreement, i'll post the city list on my #3 in the next hour.
(now i'm tired to type like a mad)

It's not Blub, it's also STW! we need those pirates ASAP to destroy galleys and make money with blockades.

I'd like too to have another settler (or almost) before the end of this TS. We're goin' too slow in expansion. Moscow can break to buid another galleon, or we'll finish to have settlers and not ships.

Also, we need missionaries (from Novo) and LBs (from StPete). And workers.
But better send the settler without workers but with missionary and a LB than wait for workers.

And sure, the Const. trade has to be the VERY first thing to do... like it should be the civics change on turn 0, right GB?
Try to not be distracted this time, we can't afford such a mistake.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 01, 2009, 03:03 PM

TS PPP
All Privateers: If not attacking, use last turn to blockade a port.

Privateer 31 (4N3W of Bombay) go after English Galley 1NW of Bombay. Patrol this area.
Privateer 32 patrol east toward NY
Privateer 27 (2E of Wash.) go 1SE to neutral waters and heal. Then patrol area between Boston and Washington.
Privateer 30 - heals the patrols straits between Bombay and Hastings
Caravel 14 - patrols area east of moscow to give early warning of any galleys headed south
Caravel 1 - moves east to area SW of Parthion to pillage/fog bust/sink galleys
Knight - pillage Barbs

Don't use Privateers for blockading Ports, unless there's nothing more important for them to do or you mean blockading a Port for 1t as the Privateer progresses to its primary objective, protecting our City Sites from AI or Barbarian settlement via Galleys.

The lead Privateer in each group should move as quickly as possible to kill any Galleys near our higher Priority City Sites, taking a route with visibility over Galley "trade routes". The lead Privateer should pass up Galleys (I tried to do this in my past TS, but didn't execute it as well as I should have) that are no immediate threat and can be easily located and destroyed by the second Privateer (via the free Sentry promotion).

Privateer 27 is damaged and needs repair, but it should move E -> 4-NE and continue along our City Sites to Sugar Island 2 by the shortest path possible to intercept any Galleys with Settlers that might settle on it. It still has strength 4.6/6.0 which should still be enough to safely kill a Galley within 1t or next to Sugar Island 2. It can heal 1-N, 2-W of our Sugar Island 2 City Site.

Privateer 32 should move to the Galley bottleneck (3-N, 3-E), (4-N, 3-E), (3-N, 1-E), (4-N, 1-E) of Atlanta via 3-E of Atlanta and patrol here.

Privateer 31 should ignore Churchill's Galley 3-SW of it, leaving it for Privateer 30 to later locate and destroy. Privateer 31 should head toward Gandhi's Horse Island and our two City Sites (Light Blue & Blue) just West of it. As it does this, it should try to locate the two Gandhi Galleys sighted North of Gandhi's Pataliputra.

Privateer 30 heals for 1t, locates and destroys Churchill's Galley (now 3-SW of Privateer 31), blockade Hastings 1-S and the free Sentry promotion should be enough to see all Galleys trying to go through the straights between Hastings and Bombay.

The new Privateer in Novgorod (be sure to switch one Citizen from 2F2C to 2H to complete it in 1t) should go west, help kill Gandhi's previous if that makes sense and sail West from South of Coventry checking between our Ice City Sites and the ones just North for Galleys and killing them.

After Privateers 31 and the new Privateer ensure that our City Sites around Gandhi's Horse City and Coventry are free of Galleys, they can probably blockade Gandi's Horse City 1-SW and Coventry 1-W. However, we will need to sweep the area between Bombay and Coventry free of all Galleys there and one of these two Privateers could be used to do that and the other could patrol around Gandhi's Horse City and Coventry for Galleys.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 01, 2009, 03:13 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 01, 2009, 03:17 PM

It seems STW agrees with me to settle only one city on Sugar1.
You don't expressed an opinion yet!
edit: you did! so, OK the settler can move 1E and settle this same turn.

No, the settler must settle where it is (1-NE of Copper). Just because I understand why you want to settle 1-E, doesn't mean I agree. The City you propose will be weak in Food and Workshops provide more Hammers than Windmills.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 01, 2009, 03:27 PM

Idea!
If i can play this turn and this turn only, i can adjust the signs on the map and everything else to avoid misunderstandigs on the city sites.

If you agree, my PPP can be:
- make the trade with Roos
- move settler 1E, settle
- move the privateers as suggested by STW.

Next turn: revolt to Repr, save, let GB his TS.

I've never been in favor of settling 1-E of Settler on Sugar Island 1. The more I think about settling 1-E, the more I dislike it.

BLubmuz, you should know there is no consensus for settling 1-E. Just try to name another member in favor of it and you will realize it.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 01, 2009, 04:16 PM

BLubz- what is the benefit of settling 1E?

STW - what is the benefit of settling in place?

Once we have solid arguments for both from their respective proponents, then we can all make an informed decision instead of the he said-she said back and forth.

BLubmuz

Oct 01, 2009, 04:29 PM

No, the settler must settle where it is (1-NE of Copper). Just because I understand why you want to settle 1-E, doesn't mean agree. The City you propose will be weak in Food and Workshops provide more Hammers than Windmills.Misunderstanding here.
I thought it was implicit with your agreement on 1 city only that position (1E).

Let's see the food and hammers:
the city provides for 1 abitant, then:
in place:
2 sugar = 8F+2C
copper +GLH mines= 8H+1F
1 lumbermill on plain forest=3H+1F
this means the city can have 6 pop.
Working a sea tile and not the copper it can grow. We can lumbermill the GLF to have more production.
In case lumbermill the other PF, to grow slowly to size 7-8... not a great city

1E
1 sugar=4F+1C
copper +GLH mines= 8H+1F
... even worst, you're right.
The downside is that that city will let uncovered the E coast of the island.
The row of PH will be covered by 3rd ring, but no way to cover the 2 northernmost tiles.

Thus, we have to decide if get a city poor on food but probably no one will settle in that island or a better city and take the risk.

If by the time we settle all the planned cities no one arrived there, we can consider to settle a city ourselves.

For now, i cannot but agree with you and settle in place. And take the risk.
We can keep a couple privateers there to limit this risk until we can settle a second city if we decide so.

After Bio, we can irrigate a GL, so we can work another lumbermill on PF.
Please remember that a LM+Railroad equals a WS without Caste.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 01, 2009, 05:50 PM

TS PPP

Observations:

GS is due in 4T in Rostov, what do we want to do with her? Bulb SM

Save for Scientific Method. We will not complete Rifling this TS unless we get about 1000 Wealth to finance our deficit and run Research 100% for the next 12-13 turns.

Churchill and Mao are at war. Hopefully Roosevelt will join in against Mao and DeGaulle will ally with Mao.

Check to see whether Roosevelt and De Gaulle can be bribed into the War between Churchill and Mao Zedong.

Techs - finish Rifling, then SM ( how many turns do we need to put into it if we are going to use our GS to bulb part?), then Physics

First compute the actual Beakers needed by guessing the Research discount (can be 20-30% for Technologies known by other Civs, but probably no more than 10% for Scientific Method, since no Civ know it yet). Let's assume 90% of F6 Graph shows us; this value will form the basis of all further calculation. We need to compute the GS bulbs = 2250 + 4.5 * <Civ Pop.> and subtract it. That will tell us about how many Beakers need to Researched the hard way. Set the Research slider to as close to 0 Wpt as possible (if we have a fat Treasury, set to 100% Research and compute the turns at 100% Research; Subtract XX Bpt * turns at 100% Research from Beakers remaining) Observe the YY Bpt, divide Beakers remaing by YY; Add the 100% Research turns if any to the final turns, which is the final answer. Research a few turns less than the value completed to ensure maximum utilization of the GS bulbs.

Cities:
Sugar Isle 1 - Settle 1NE of Copper, we can get at least 1 other good city on the island.
The Worker will create a Plantation on the Sugar to the NW. Scout will go 3E on the PH for overwatch. Mace will go to the new city. Galleon will head back toward Pateliputra to pick up the next Settler.

Worker can build Road to either Sugar; Chop Jungle; build Plantation. We need Culture to pop Borders for Plantations: Maybe run 2 Artists for 2t and start building a Theatre.

Moscow - Switch to Privateer 3T, finish Settler 6T, Frrigate 3T or Privateer 3T.

Be sure a Citizen in Moscow is moved from 2F2C (Shore) to 5H (Plains Workshop) next turn. The Privateer will be 2H of completing next turn and will provide a huge overflow to the Settler or a few (1-2) Citizens can be shifted from 2F2C to 1F1H (Plains) for 1t to complete the Privateer in 2t rather than 3t.

Moscow has the highest Commerce of all our Cities at 48 Cpt; the closest City is Yaroslavl' at 22 Cpt. We should complete an Observatory (5t; +13.5 Bpt) and University (6t; 13.5 Bpt) in Moscow in that order; at that point, we can build Grocer (5t; 13.5 Wpt) and resume building Settlers. We can build Settlers in some of our other Cities to make for not doing so in Moscow for a while.

St Pete - finish University 8T, Observatory 8T

Great idea building an Observatory.

Novgorod - Privateer 1T, CH 4T, Settler 27T ( but I propose chopping the forests with out Beavers to the East and SE to hurry the Settler)

Great idea building a Settler here, especially with Forest Chops to aid production. Maybe build a Worker before the Settler; we are very short of Workers already and will practically need one more at least for every new City.

We may also want a Library (11t; 4.25 Bpt) and University (25t; 4.25 Bpt) here to meet our five University quota for building Oxford University in Rostov.

We need at least 1 Worker here building Workshops in addition to the one Chopping.

Rostov - Harbor 5T, Settler 13T OR Privateer 5T ( I favor the Privateer as it gives Rostov a chance to grow more)

A University would be another good build here, since it is required for Oxford University to be built here later, adds 7.25 Bpt and gets us one step closer to five Universities required for Oxford University.

Yaroslavl - Library 10T, Privateer 9T or Frigate 10T

This is the City with the second highest Commerce (22 Cpt). We want to build a Bank (21t; 11 Wpt) and University (21t; 5.5 Bpt) here.

Yekaterinburg - Barracks 3T, Worker 4T OR Settler18T (Using two forest chops to speed the Settler), Stable 6T

Start Heroic Epic (13t) here after Barracks; we can't wait for Marble plus have Industrious bonus and need this City to become our Naval City as soon as possible.

We also could build a University (18t; 3 Bpt) here and that will become faster to build after several Workshops are completed, but Novgorod is a better site for a University.

We need at least 2 Worker here building Workshops in addition to the one Chopping.

Workers:
Workers 22 and 4 -finish WS 2T, (2N of Moscow), move 1N of Moscow and build WS, 1E build WS, 1W2S farm GL

Worker 24 - move 1S and farm FP for St Pete, move to 1N1E and farm GL

Worker 1 - chop forests 3E and 1E3S of Novgorod, farm GL 1N of Novogorod

Worker 2 - chop forests 1S and 1S1W of Yekat. Farm GL 2e and 3E of St Pete (for Yekat)

Excellent orders for these five Workers, but we need more. I planned to build one in Moscow in my turn set, but the Privateer rush nuxed that; Now, we should build several Workers to help build Workshops in Yaroslavl' and Novgorod plus we need a few for our new Cities.

Diplomacy - make trade for Constitution with Roosevelt that STW suggested
Trade Lib to Mao for WM and 230G
refuse all free tech demands
refuse to DOW
resource demands - ?
renegotiate with Degaulle to get his remaining 5G per turn.
reset espionage to even among all but DG

Sounds good. I would agree to all Resource demands, except maybe from Degaulle and cancel them 10 turns later. No need to get Diplomatic negatives for such a small price.

Civics - revolt to Rep at the end of this turn

Units -

All Privateers: If not attacking, use last turn to blockade a port.

Privateer 31 (4N3W of Bombay) go after English Galley 1NW of Bombay. Patrol this area.
Privateer 32 patrol east toward NY
Privateer 27 (2E of Wash.) go 1SE to neutral waters and heal. Then patrol area between Boston and Washington.
Privateer 30 - heals the patrols straits between Bombay and Hastings
Caravel 14 - patrols area east of moscow to give early warning of any galleys headed south
Caravel 1 - moves east to area SW of Parthion to pillage/fog bust/sink galleys
Knight - pillage Barbs

Privateer suggestions are in a previous post.

Upgrade 1-2 Caravels to Frigates?

Move Medic 2 Frigate to aid healing Privateers?

Build another Galleon?

We are going to need Wall Street in Moscow sooner than we need Oxford University, so I suggest building Banks in Yaroslavl' (21t ; 22 bCpt), Novgorod (25t ; 17 bCpt), Rostov (12t ; 14 bCpt) and Yekaterinburg (18t ; 12 bCpt) where bCpt means Base Commerce per turn. Banks in Novgorod and Yekaterinburg will build faster as Workshops are completed in these Cities.

Sun Tzu Wu