SGOTM 10 - Fifth Element [Archive] - Page 4 - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 10:48 AM

I hold on.
Still not convinced (i was) where to settle Sugar1.
At the beginning i was for 1E, then when trying to compare i moved to in-place, but STW last post on this showed me that 1E is not that bad.

So, i need more opinions.

The only advantage of 1-E is it will cover the Island more completely with its Culture at Ring 2 than any other single City.

Settling in place allows increased Growth of +6 Fpt at Population 2 by working two Sugar Plantations. Settling 1-E will never have better than +4 Fpt by working a single Sugar Plantation.

Settling in place will provide a second Sugar Resource within its Ring 2 Culture that can be traded. Settling 1-E will have no Sugar to trade until its Ring 3, which could be very long, but still offers only 1 Sugar for trade; the 3rd Sugar is in Ring 4 of 1-E Site!

Settling in place provides 20H Base Hammers per turn versus 16H Base Hammers per turn for 1-E, both at Population 7. However, settling in place will reach Population 7 much sooner with +6 Fpt at population 2 than settling 1-E with just +4 Fpt.

For both Sites, the NE Sugar is in Ring 4, so it will be a very long wait, but the same for both Sites to get the final Sugar for trading.

I'm still strongly committed to Settling in place, regardless of whether we settle 1, 2 or 3 Cities on this Island. If we do settle a second City, it should be on the SE corner to get the Fish in its BFC for both growth and an extra Resource for Sid's Sushi.

Same for which spot choose next: Sugar2 or Whales?
I'm not particularly in favor for one or the other, few turns won't change much (maybe).

STW posted Sugar2 is his #2 priority. What does he means? Second city after Sugar1 or to settle it after whales?

1 Sugar Island 1 6-N, 4-W Coventry 3 Sugar; Copper+ 2S 1C 2G 4P 1GH
1S 1C 2G 3P 1GH 3PH
2 Sugar Island 2 0-N, 13-E Atlanta 2 Sugar National Park
2S 7G 2P 2PH 4F+6J
3 Sheep Penn 2-S, 9-E Chinook Sheep; Whale 1S 1W 6P |2P 1GH 5F

Yes, Sugar Island 2 is my #2 priority; Sugar Island 1 remains my #1 priority. The South end of the long North to South Island West of the Barbarian States' Chinook is my #3 priority, even though it provides us with two new Resources, Sheep and Whale. We should be producing at least 2 Settlers this turn set, so the settling date of these two Islands should not be too far apart. We need to build a second Galleon this turn set to make it so, since these two Islands are so far apart; I don't think 1 Galleon is enough; we can produce 1-2 more Galleons (3-4 total) in the following TS (after greatbeyond's TS).

If we didn't work so hard for Sugar Island 1, I'd say load the Settler onto the Galleon and ship him to Sugar Island 2, but I hope that our Privateers can protect Sugar Island 2 long enough to get our next Settler there in time.

I can play tonight and thanks to the time zones GB can be able to play his TS right after my Cartographer-1T-TS.

OK, please settle on Sugar Island 1, 1-NE of Copper; its a better Site and there no risk until an AI gets Astronomy and we can afford a Privateer to patrol the East side of the Island at that point in time. De Gaulle is the only AI with Chemistry and he is unlikely to share, so he may be the only AI with Frigates, but not for a while. After a Sugar Plantation, we can Chop a Theatre on Sugar Island 1 to increase Culture a bit.

Sugar2 needs both sugar improved and to lumbermill the hills to help production. FP need a lot of work to be built, so no reason to rush the NP (really i don't want to burn a GE on this, but firstly we don't have a spare GE).

I thought you were ignoring the option of a National Park on Sugar Island 2, but now I see that your idea to build Lumbermills is temporary to slowly build the National Park. I'd like to rush the National Park with a Great Engineer (assuming we get a 2nd one), because getting a Great Person Farm with 12-15 Specialists would really help boost our Great Scientist production; we need a few more of these after Biology (Electricity = 2 GSs; Fission = 2-3 GSs; Medicine = 2 GS), but we can't delay finishing National Park or it will be too late to help produce some of these Great Scientists.

Assuming we don't use a Great Engineer to rush National Park, because we have only one GE (reserved for founding Mining. Inc.): We can build Workshops on the two open Grassland (2 x 1F4H) and two Lumbermills on PHF (2 x 4H), supported by two Sugar Plantations (2 x 4F1C). This would require Population 6 with stable Growth at 12F16H2C. With Industrious + Forge, Hammers per turn would be 16H x 1.75 = 28 Hpt. National Park is 405H and would take 405H / 28 Hpt = 14.46 turns. OK, its not as slow as I thought to build National Park, assuming we get every needed improvement and Population 6 by the time we complete Biology. After National Park is completed, we have a Military unit destroy the two Workshops so Forest/Jungle can spread there and build Preserves over the two Lumbermills. We probably should build Library and University as well, before we remove our production Tiles though.

Sun Tzu Wu

culdeus

Oct 02, 2009, 11:22 AM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 11:40 AM

I just posted a response that answers most of your questions below, but I'll answer them briefly here, so you can see all the answers in one post.

STW, it seems GB is in favor to settle the NP city, former Sugar2 first.

For me it's OK, can you please confirm?

Yes, please settle Sugar Island 1 City 1-NE of Copper.

After it the Whales city, if still free. We can't be sure on this.

I suggested that we get two Privateers (one near Bombay now and on being built in Novgorod) to the area of the West of Gandhi's Horse City to kill any Galleys that threaten it; its the best we can do; impossible to get the Settler there first, unless we use the one on Sugar Island 1. I think its best to let the Privateers protect the area West of Gandhi's Horse City even if they get there 2-3 turns later; after all, we do want to settler Sugar Island 1 now, don't we? The two Privateers will be there much sooner than any Settler we can build this TS.

Then, can you please compare in 2 rows the sites on Sugar1?

I'm not sure its really possible to do; the situation is too complicated for a two line comparison, but I'll try:

Before Biology or Sushi:

1-NE of Copper: 14F20H3C + up to 9 * 2F2C (Pop 7-16) 2 Sugar, 1 GH Wm, 2 G Ws, 1 C.M., 1 P Ws; Ring 4 = 3rd Sugar.

1-N, 2-E of Copper: 12F16H4C + up to 8 * 2F2C (Pop 7-15) 1 Sugar, 1 GH Wm, 2 G Ws, 1 C.M., 2 PH Wm; Ring 3 = 2nd Sugar; Ring 4 = 3rd Sugar.

Are we sure the benefits of more food will compensate the need for a second city there?

We don't need a second City on Sugar Island 1; just patrol East Coast via a privateer between the time AIs get Astronomy (Galleons) and Chemistry (Frigates). If we immediately build a Theatre and Monastery with Islamic conversion, our Culture rate will be 6 Culture per turn. Ring 3 Culture in 150 / 6 Cpt = 25t. Add a free Artist increases Culture rate to 10 Cpt and Ring 3 Culture in 150 / 10 Cpt = 15t.

The AI will settle on (or near) the NE Sugar if it needs this resource, no matter whether we settle in place or 1-E. Otherwise, it has better Sites to settle.

Are we sure we want wait the privateer completes before revolt?
Any turn we wait are some 30 raw beakers lost. Is it worth?

I sighted two of Gandhi's Galleys near Pataliputra:

Turn 114 Gandhi's Galley 3 N+1 E of Pataliputra 10P
Turn 115 Gandhi's Galley 4 N+1 E and 2 N+1 W of Pataliputra 10P

We need two Privateers to intercept and destroy these two Galleys and to protect our remaining City Sites near Gandhi's Horse City (especially West of it).

So, delaying Representation 1t to get the 5th Privateer out is probably well worth the wait, considering that 1t can be the difference of getting the Sheep/Whale and Clam/Stone Sites on the Island just West of Gandhi's Horse City.

Please answer in 3-4 hours, so i can play and post in time for GB. We already approved (with variations) his PPP, so he can play straight.

OK, it's been a little more than an hour since you asked.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 02, 2009, 12:06 PM

Resuming my short PPP for 1 half turn:

- settle in place on Sugar1, 2 artists at work
- move the worker there on 2E sugar for a road
- move the galleon E to gather next settler
- trade with Roos as decided
- moving the few privateers with some move left in direction Patalip.
- change citizens in Novo to have the privateer next turn
- verify the MM of cities
- do a lot of work in signs and so on
- revolt to representation after hit enter, so it's a thing done
- no more, i'll try to left all units to move next turn for GB

right! i'll start play in less than an hour unless some more problems will emerge.
I see you're on line, so be quick.

unclethrill

Oct 02, 2009, 12:15 PM

Convinced me on all points.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 12:55 PM

Checking in. I'm going to take a look at things and play a lot of civ. Had a minor surgery today which will keep me in bed at least thru tomorrow evening and likely much of the next day. Nothing too bad, but I can finally get caught up.

If there's something you'd like me to simulate or test or some specific assignment you might have for me I'm welcome to start with that.

Get well soon! Playing Civ BtS will help. :)

We have been wondering whether we should (GS bulb-wise) bee-line Fission (as originally planned) after Rifling or Research Steel + Steam Power -> Railroad for an early Mining, Inc. and then maybe Assembly Line for Factories; then go back to the Fission path?

If we trade for Corporation, we can use Great Merchants to bulb Railroad and maybe Steam Power. Steel and Assembly Line are bulbable only by Great Engineers, but we probably won't be able to generate enough of them. Also, non-Great Scientist bulbs generate only 1500 + 3 * <Civ Pop> Beakers versus Great Scientist bulbs of 2250 + 4.5 * <Civ Pop>. The cost of generating Great People increases rapidly, so there is a risk that we can't generate enough of them soon enough for Fission. Can we generate all the Great People we want in time to use them? Will the cost of generating a new Great Person ever become so high that it takes too long and we have to Research the hard way?

Simulations would help us answer these questions. Maybe we could have a test starting position close to the current state of our Game. Then we can update it to reflect greatbeyond's TS, which will probably not quite finish Rifling and answer questions of how far the AI Galley's have gotten in taking our City Sites. Simulations starting after greatbeyond's TS would be most useful.

I do suspect that after we complete Rifling, we won't be able to (GS bulb-wise) bee-line Fission, because we can't generate Great Scientists fast enough. We may have to Research part of Steam Power or Steel while pursuing Fission as our #1 goal to make use of GS bulbs and stall while more GSs are generated.

Also, note that once we complete Fission, Medicine becomes GS bulbable and we need it for Sid's Sushi which we will therefore could easily get become Mining, Inc. (Railroad).

Rocketry path: After Fission, we will want Rocketry and that requires Steel -> Artillery -> Rocketry or Steel -> Railroad (Mining, Inc.) -> Combustion (better Navy) -> Flight -> Rocketry. The latter path is much longer, but contains useful Technologies.

Tactical Nuke platform: A Submarine can deploy Tactical Nukes, right? Submarine requires Radio, Oil or Uranium according to Sevopedia; does it also require Combustion? Radio (9072B) is bulbable by Great Artist, but it would require 5 of them, so bulbing it seems impractical!

I think it would be useful to run tests from the end of greatbeyond's TS through to Victory to help see which might be the quickest way there and a possible 1st place in SGOTM-10! Also, I think that most of us have not had much experience with Nuclear War and its best not be too naive about it with the Real SGOTM-10.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 12:59 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 01:02 PM

- move the galleon E to gather next settler

If you are lucky, you might sight Gandhi's two Galleys I sighted 2t ago.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 01:30 PM

New suggestion for Privateer 30 (NE of Bombay) & 31 (in Rostov):

Privateer 30 goes straight SW to Coventry's Island, around north coasts of Coventry's Island and Gandhi's Horse City Island and patrol the East Coast of the Island just West of Gandhi's Horse City Island (Light Blue + Blue Sites) with Stone, Clam, Sheep and Whale (quite an important Island for us). The idea is to get here ASAP to prevent AI settlement.

Privateer 31 can heal 1t, patrol along Gandhi's Coast via efficient courses, past Bombay, look for and kill Churchill's Galley while patrolling Gandhi's West Coast down to Pataliputra, possibly locate Gandhi's 2 Galleys here (waiting). When the new Privateer arrives, Privateer 31 can go back along Gandhi's coast past Bombay and blockade Hastings.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 01:38 PM

Our Ivory Resource is being taken over by Gandhi's Culture (Stalin 53%; Gandhi 46%).

St. Petersburg will complete the University in 8t, but that probably won't be soon enough to retain Cultural control of our Ivory Camp.

If we lose our current Ivory Camp, we can build another 1-NE of the current one and build a route for it or trade Gandhi for Ivory.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 02:01 PM

The Barbarian States do not seem to bother protecting their Workers from capture, making them quite easy to capture and retain with a Galleon loaded with two Military units of adequate strength:

Build a Galleon & Knight in Moscow; load the Knight onto the Galleon; load the Knight revealing and pillaging the Barbarian States.

Move the Galleon to Tiles where Barbarian Workers may be repairing pillage damage; capture Workers with one Knight and defend from recapture by stacking the second Knight on top of the first.

Rather than build a second Knight, we could use the existing Maceman in Novgorod, possibly with a Shock promotion or the Crossbowman in St. Petersburg.

We need more Workers and the Barbarians are willing to provide them with sufficient persuasion. ;)

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 02, 2009, 02:44 PM

Played, my half turn, mission accomplished, despite 4 crashes. I should have problems with something, i already investigate but everything seems OK. Just it keep crashing almost on anything. I have to PM to Alan, since the crashes were unexpected and occurred without any particular trigger. Even firefox crashed, so i can't link the save and i've lost the in game log too. dammit :mad:

the autolog
Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 117/473 (1768 AD) [02-Oct-2009 22:00:00]
Tech traded to Roosevelt (America): Printing Press
Tech traded to Roosevelt (America): Gunpowder
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Constitution
Yakutsk founded
Yakutsk begins: Library (61 turns)

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 117/473 (1768 AD) [02-Oct-2009 22:11:17]
0% Research: 20 per turn
0% Culture: 42 per turn
0% Espionage: 6 per turn
100% Gold: 87 per turn, 373 in the bank

After End Turn:
Novgorod finishes: Privateer
Yekaterinburg grows to size 7

There wasn't units left to move but the galleon and all the ones around Sugar1 (Yakutsk). Before hit enter i placed the signs, both with Alt+X and with the satellite view. The approved cities are all in red, the signs are exactly where they have to be settled.
Next city to settle is #2, #1 is Yakutsk.
I also placed an 8th sign, just in case and left all mine and STW's ones just to help discussion if needed.

The only thing i did after hit enter was revolt to representation. BTW, we still have 1 turn of anarchy for 2 civics. But we decided we're OK as we are now, so it's just to inform you. I also set research to 0 right after loaded the save, better accumulate some cash and raise the slider when out of anarchy with Repr in.

AlanH

Oct 02, 2009, 03:08 PM

If Firefox is also crashing then I would strongly suggest that there is something wrong with your hardware or OS. Please can someone else play the next turn set. If they don't suffer crashes then it points to a problem on BLubmuz' PC.

BLubmuz

Oct 02, 2009, 03:55 PM

I already answered in PM to Alan (after a PM to inform him on my problems). I hope to solve my problems before my TS (right after Greatbeyond's one) or at least to see buffy is stable playing some test game before the actual one.

But it's not easy, since everything seems OK. But its' not.

culdeus

Oct 02, 2009, 04:31 PM

I finished the test save and got it played forward (somewhat accurately I hope) to just before Blubmuz's turn. (the 1460 save IIRC) One problem I had was I missed OB with Mao and he wouldn't agree after I signed with Washington. I edited the WB save (to get OB with Mao) and when I reloaded from WB it starts the turn numbering back at 0.

I have attached it below and an early save that could be replayed to get better accuracy with our actual turns.

Silly me I didn't even realize it was back to me. I can post a PPP tomorrow. Tonight was dedicated to emergency plumbing repairs.

is this the last test save? This is quite a ways back. May be worth some effort to bring a save roughly up to date. Won't do much in the way of matching the AI moves, but might get mechanics down.

greatbeyond

Oct 02, 2009, 05:30 PM

BLubmuz

Oct 02, 2009, 05:42 PM

I have one PC that has been crashing the 3.014 version of Firefox quite regularly. 3.5 seems to be a little better.

I'll grab the new save and go from there. Are there any other questions or comments? I can either start to play tonight or Saturday night.
I'm not sure what will have changed with Blubmuz's single turn, so I'll explore that first.I made the trade for constitution and revolted the following turn, to let the privateer complete. Founded Sugar city as planned. No units moved, no MM changed.
Set research to 0 when i opened the save. This turn means nothing, we're in anarchy.
You can only move units, then MM and chancing queues next turn.

I got the latest verision of Firefox, but my problems should be HW. But no way, everything seems work well. Actually not.

greatbeyond

Oct 02, 2009, 05:44 PM

Is that a good-to-go, or do I wait for more comment?

culdeus

Oct 02, 2009, 10:05 PM

It's quite possible that I overlooked discussion on this, but it appears now that the total AI city count will eventually wind up being around 40 more or less. Much depends on the rate of settling of the pelego of which a few are already set out to do.

40 will mean somewhere in the 65-70 nuke count will be needed or more depending on SDI. For this reason it might be smart to not nuke the barbs until the end as they will likely not get SDI, but I do not know this for sure.

I do have some doubts whether this is feasible before time runs out. I've really only messed around testing games up to the first nukes get shot off. I've never followed through to see the length of time it would take to amass a 60+ nuke force. There was some discussion in the maint. thread about with time unclicked that the clock keeps running forever. I think many will need it.

Thing is the strategy might develop that we need to launch nukes indiscriminately across many AI at same time to slow their progress down. Luckily there are two pairs of two AI together. Looking at the continents there are many good strike points. I have some inclination that perhaps even marines might be able to do lots of the city taking.

My thought that this would be a cossak+rifle conquest looks fairly foolish at this time.

You guys are doing a real good job of keeping things moving along. Much of this discussion is beyond my skillset and takes into account things I hardly ever think about. I do consider myself quite the military tactician and hope to be able to chart turn saving movements later to add some value to this team.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 10:35 PM

Played, my half turn, mission accomplished, despite 4 crashes.

Could you be running low on memory? Civ4 BtS may not handle low memory situations very well. I have had problems with Huge Maps and running Firefox at the same time with far too many Windows and Tabs open.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 02, 2009, 10:41 PM

It's quite possible that I overlooked discussion on this, but it appears now that the total AI city count will eventually wind up being around 40 more or less. Much depends on the rate of settling of the pelego of which a few are already set out to do.

Our Privateer fleet is close to stopping the AI from spreading further. How many Cities does each AI and the Barbarian States have now? They may not necessarily found more Cities than they currently have, if we can Settle the Sites we want fast enough.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 02:03 AM

Could you be running low on memory? Civ4 BtS may not handle low memory situations very well. I have had problems with Huge Maps and running Firefox at the same time with far too many Windows and Tabs open.Our map is small and i have 4 Gb ram on a Quad duo machine, running XP pro SP3 (which can handle only 3 Gb). And Firefox crashed with only 2 tabs open. I'm afraid i have some HW component with some subtle defect which shows every now and then.

Our Privateer fleet is close to stopping the AI from spreading further. How many Cities does each AI and the Barbarian States have now? They may not necessarily found more Cities than they currently have, if we can Settle the Sites we want fast enough.Sure sunking a galley with a settler is a serious damage we do even if we can't settle any of the numberless crappy spots in this map. The AI will be seriously slowered on his expansion, but we can't stop them forever. Once they start to escort with frigates, we can't do much.

But I think Culdeus numbers on nukes are exaggerated: most of the cities are coastal and a couple galleons loaded with infantry and later trasports with marines are probably enough to take most of the cities once nuked.
The SDI is not so close and it's expensive.
Also, we don't need to ammass a so large number, we need to know how many cities our victim has, build the same number of nukes to be sure we wipe him quickly, have 2 ships loaded lurking outside of any coastal city, launch a nuke for every city we can reach in that same turn and so on, for 2-3 turns wars.
Probably before actually start a war we can have about an half of nukes needed to start next one.

No reason to attack barbs. Nukes saved. Time saved. The conquest VC do not count them as an opponent.

unclethrill

Oct 03, 2009, 05:02 AM

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 05:43 AM

One thing we will want is a worker army. We will need to make use of at least 2-4 cities of our first 2 victims. As soon as we nuke and take, we need to send in the workers, hopefully in a strong enough force that they can fix improvements and scrub fallout completely before the city is our of anarchy. This will really speed things up for the next attacks.
We need Ecology to scrub, a bit far in the res, path

BLubz, I know you recently did something to your computer. Have you installed any new hardware? What about new software? Also , if there is a memory issue, you could have a virus that is hogging the resources.Thanks for your interest, UT. No, no new HW in months, nor SW added recently. I've found a conflict between Zone Alarm and Acronis, so i probably solved my problems for testing goin' back to previous release of ZA. I have Avast (free), regularly updated. Probably the problem can be of memory, but i ran some HW tests and it passed. Maybe the processor (Intel quad duo 2.4 GHz) or the MB (Abit IP35)? I tend to exclude the graphic card (nVidia 8500).
Any suggestion will be appreciated. BTW this morning i used Firefox without any problem, but yesterday night it was a nightmare.

One note on the game: Roos' hands are full... probably he's targeting Mao? He's friendly, so we don't have to worry.

culdeus

Oct 03, 2009, 06:33 AM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 08:22 AM

I've worked out some details, since I wrote the following:

I thought you were ignoring the option of a National Park on Sugar Island 2, but now I see that your idea to build Lumbermills is temporary to slowly build the National Park. I'd like to rush the National Park with a Great Engineer (assuming we get a 2nd one), because getting a Great Person Farm with 12-15 Specialists would really help boost our Great Scientist production; we need a few more of these after Biology (Electricity = 2 GSs; Fission = 2-3 GSs; Medicine = 2 GS), but we can't delay finishing National Park or it will be too late to help produce some of these Great Scientists.

Assuming we don't use a Great Engineer to rush National Park, because we have only one GE (reserved for founding Mining. Inc.): We can build Workshops on the two open Grassland (2 x 1F4H) and two Lumbermills on PHF (2 x 4H), supported by two Sugar Plantations (2 x 4F1C). This would require Population 6 with stable Growth at 12F16H2C. With Industrious + Forge, Hammers per turn would be 16H x 1.75 = 28 Hpt. National Park is 405H and would take 405H / 28 Hpt = 14.46 turns. OK, its not as slow as I thought to build National Park, assuming we get every needed improvement and Population 6 by the time we complete Biology. After National Park is completed, we have a Military unit destroy the two Workshops so Forest/Jungle can spread there and build Preserves over the two Lumbermills. We probably should build Library and University as well, before we remove our production Tiles though.

I've done a calculation of our new Great Person generation in Rostov based on the following information, some of which I know is slightly inaccurate, but shouldn't affect the estimates much.

Following paragraph can be ignored:

First, All Civ4 Games have a sequence of Great Persons generated on a modified Arithmetic sequence of GGPs accumulated in each City. In Normal speed Games, this sequence is 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000, 2200, 2400, 2600, 2800, 3000, ...? I recalled that for Epic games (Ancient start at least) have the same sequence +50%, for example 150, 300, 450, 600, 750, 900, 1050, 1200, 1350, 1500, 1800, 2100, 2400, 2700, 3000, 3300, 3600, 3900, 4200, 4500, ...? However, just loading the game, I see that our next Great Person in Rostov needs a total of 810 GPPs which is not on the latter sequence above.

The sequence in our SGOTM-10 Game is slightly different and I believe it to be the following sequence: 135, 270, 405, 540, 675, 810, 945, 1080, 1215, 1350, 1620, 1890, 2160, 2430, 2700, 2970, 3240, 3510, 3780, 4050, ...?

We have so far generated four Great Scientists (one each used to bulb Education, Printing Press, Chemistry and Astronomy) and one Great Engineer (being saved to found Mining, Inc). Our sixth Great Person is due about t122 and needs 810 GPP to be generated in Rostov.

Assuming Rostov works 9 Specialists (currently working 6), it will generate 84 GPPpt, so another Great Person (7th) will be generated in 945 GPPs / 84 GPPpt = 11.25 turns, after the 6th (maybe on t122), in other words about turn 134. The 8th GP will be generated in 1080 GPPs / 84 GPPpt = 12.86 turns, etc.

Let's assume that the Harbor in Rostov will be completed in 4-5 turns and Rostov will immediately hire a total of 10 Specialists (the maximum it can support), the GPPpt would improve to (10 * 3 GPP per Specialist + 1 GPP for National Epic) +100% for Pacifism +100% for National Epic = 93 GPPpt:

6th GP will be generated in 4 turns while the Harbor in Rostov is built.
7th GP will be generated in 945 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 10.16 turns
8th GP will be generated in 1080 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 11.61 turns
9th GP will be generated in 1215 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 13.06 turns

This is enough to bulb Scientific Method (using 6th GP), Physics (using 7th & 8th GP) and Biology (free Physics GS & 9th GP), unlocking National Park (assuming all generated GP are Great Scientists).

This will happen in as little as 4 + 10.16 + 11.61 + 13.06 = 38.83 turns from t118; in other words it could happen as early as turn 118 + 39 = 157.

The Schedule is tight, because it will take the Sugar Island 2 City 37 turns to grow to Population 6 needed to build the National Park 15 turns after Biology is completed. Thus, our National Park can be functional by turn 157 + 15 = 172.

It is also estimated that 3 Workers will be needed to quickly build 2 Sugar Plantations, 2 Lumbermills, 2 Workshops and 9 Forests Preserves by the time the National Park is completed.

So, we need a Settler, Military unit (Longbowman), Islamic Missionary and three Workers on Sugar Island 2 ASAP to meet the National Park schedule described above.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 09:01 AM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 11:59 AM

One thing we will want is a worker army.

We could use many more workers right now. Many good players consider 2 Workers per City a minimum. We have barely one Worker per City.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 12:18 PM

I'll grab the new save and go from there. Are there any other questions or comments? I can either start to play tonight or Saturday night.
I'm not sure what will have changed with Blubmuz's single turn, so I'll explore that first.

I'm wondering whether there aren't a few builds we need in this TS that were not covered in your PPP. For example, I mentioned that we need three Workers for Sugar Island 2 and its proposed National Park; I'm not sure we have a complete consensus on building a National Park on Sugar Island 2 ASAP, but if we do agreed, we need to start builds for the required units and have them on there way and maybe even settle
Sugar Island 2 by the end of this turn set.

greatbeyond, do you suppose the PPP has changed enough to re-post it with changes in a different color? Many members have asked or suggested many things that you probably can't fit even half of into the PPP.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 01:03 PM

Great job of math, STW, as usual.
We must halt Rostov growth now, since the Harbor will provide +3 health and this compensates the food now lost by unhealthy pop. In case we can't match the 0 growth, we can MM losing food and running one more specialist and gaining food alternatively.

Thanks. However, Rostov needs to grow to Population 15 by the time it completes its Harbor. To support 10 Specialists, it must work 5 Seafood Tiles (3 * 6F (Fish) + 2 * 5F (Clam/Crab) + 2F (Central Tile) = 30F, thus it needs a Population of 15.

Now, assuming we have all GS (as we hope) your schedule can be:
turn 122-132-144-157. I don't remember if the GPP have overflow. In case they haven't, we must run as many specialists by temporarily starving the city as possible to optimize the births.
After this, we'll run merchants to pop one for Sushi.

Yes, we can start building National Park as early as t157, assuming the next four GP we generate are Great Scientists. The National Park can be completed 15t after Biology is finished (t172), if all the necessary improvements are completed in time.

Trying to visualize the "big picture" of this game, is probably a mistake beeline straight to fission.
We need it for the Manhattan, but we need also rocketry for the Nukes.

The Great Scientist bulbing path leads to Fission via Biology and ends at Sid's Sushi which can cause sky rocket growth in our New Cities. Why not use it for early super City growth than simply as a way to feed Cities during Gobal Warming?

So, we can try to complete Steel and Steam (which is useful for workers speed +50%) and are both needed for Railroad (railroads will improve production and Mining Inc more). Also, Mining Inc will help considerably on the Manhattan build, so we can even try to complete it after Electricity.

We can probably trade for Steam Power and Steel after we complete Biology, Fission and Medicine.

Please run test simulations; I'm sure we will see that going through Biology, Fission and Medicine via Great Scientist bulbs and trading a few harder to bulb Technologies like Steam Power and Steel is a more efficient (faster) path.

We probably also need to pick up Assembly Line for Factory, maybe Coal Plant or Nuclear Plant. I hope the AIs will never have Assembly Line for trade, but they probably will.

Then we'll have to decide if go for rocketry by the shortest path (artillery) or by the longest but more intersting one of Combustion (unlocked by Railroads) and Flight.
AL can wait after rocketry since we need to build Nukes before switch on aggressive.
In the meantime our rifles will ensure the defence.

Since we need Railroad for Mining, Inc. and Combustion for modern Naval Vessels, it seems that the longer path might be better

We need to look at this path in more detail.

In other words, this game has to be seen like a Space Race, where the Apollo is the Manhattan and the nukes are the SSparts. With the difference we can stop research after Ecology and building lot of Navy and GP units.

Agreed (stop research = Research 00% with most Specialists still Scientists, if possible). We perhaps need to convince ourselves what is truly the most efficient Research path to our goal.

I suspect that we may have to apply Research to Steel and other Technologies in the Rocketry line, while GS bulbing our way though Biology, Fission and Medicine.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 03, 2009, 01:22 PM

Without having any data from tests, I have to say that a beeline to get the NP and get all those specialists followed by a beeline to Sushi really has merits. With that influx of food we could grow a lot of cities in lousy sites and make them huge fast. If nothing else, once the war production starts, those huge lousy location cities can support the economy running merchants.

We definitely need to look at this further and soon.

I have mid-terms all week so my testing time will be limited this week but keep me in the rotation. I'll need a break from these tests.

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 01:28 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 02:41 PM

My experience tells me that the AI will usually beeline Steel, probably 'cause it opens cannons. Not easy to trade for, but possible. Next preferred tech is rocketry, the AI loves SAM infantry, never undestood why. Of course using the artillery path, for the same reason as Steel: artiilery units.

Thus we can probably obtain Steel in trade, more difficult Steam (also more expensive).
Your NP city can give a good contribute to research, but by the time it will be up and running our need for GS to bulb is considerably diminished. Nonetheless, it will be useful.
Assuming we can keep running Caste without many happiness problems (i'm afraid for the Emancipation penalty).

Considering next TS spent researching almost all Rifling, we're targeting Bio for turn 157. Using massive bulbing this means researching SM, Physics, Bio in 37 turns.

Moment. I'll try to open the save to verify something.

National Park will be running at 12-13 Specialists (74-80 GPPpt) 15 turns after Biology. We lose 15 * 80 = 1200 GPPs, which is less then the 1350 GPP price of the next GP (10th). Thus rushing the National Park via a Great Engineer doesn't even cover the cost of a new Great Person and would also make each additional Great Person (11th through 20th) cost 270 GPP. You are right, GE rushing NP is a lose-lose proposition!

However, by the time Rostov can complete one GP generation cycle after Biology is completed, Sugar Island 2 National Park will be in full operation, generating 46% (80 GPPpt) of all future Great People while Rostov remains in the lead at 54% (93 GPPpt) due in part to National Epic. Preserves spread the Feature (Forest, Jungle) they contain, so Sugar Island 2 could add 1-2 Specialists, realizing up to 92 GPPpt. Also, note that Sugar Island 2 National Park generates pure Great Scientists, because the National Park +1 GPPpt is Great Scientist. We probably would want Oxford University on Sugar Island 2, because it runs more Scientists than Rostov ever could; need to figure out an efficient way to build Oxford Uni. though.

So, National Park will be on-line something after Rostov generates the first GP (hopefully GS) for bulbing Electricity. The National Park has a 46% chance of providing the second GS for bulbing Electricity. It will also be providing 46% of the Great Scientist (maybe more due to no GA pollution) needed to bulb Fission and Medicine (2 or 3 GS for each Tech.). While working on Medicine or maybe a bit sooner, we will switch Rostov to all Merchants to generate a Great Merchant for founding Sid's Sushi and the National Park will need to provide all Great Scientists during the time Rostov is running Great Merchants.

After Medicine, Great Scientists can bulb Flight and possibly even Rocketry after Ecology. Ecology is a nice diversion, since it allows our Workers to Scub Fallout after we Nuke AI Cities!

Even without all these useful technologies (Electricity, Fission, Medicine, Flight, Ecology and Rocketry) that are bulbable by 2-3 Great Scientists each, 13 Scientists via Representation provide 13 * 6 = 78 base Beakers per turn, more than any other City is ever likely to provide. Although we will turn off the Research slider (00% Research), we will probably need Beakers to research new Technologies till near the end or switch them to Merchants for Wealth and Knowledge (Science).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 03:07 PM

The National Park needs the following units ASAP on Sugar Island 2:

Settler
Military unit (i.e. Longbowman)
Islamic Missionary
Three Workers

Moscow: Switch Citizen to new 5H Workshop; complete Settler in 5t with no interruption.

Requisition existing Military unit (possibly from St. Petersburg); replace shortly when possible.

Islamic Missionary can be built and sent much later more convenient time, but less than 30t from now.

St. Petersburg: interrupt University; build Worker in 4t; resume University.

Yekaterinburg: build Barracks for 1t to complete Growth cycle; build Worker in 4t; resume Barracks; start Heroic Epic.

Requisition existing Worker (possibly from Novgorod area)

Novgorod: complete Courthouse; build Worker to replace one shipped to Sugar Island 2.

This requisition needs to be approved by a majority of Fifth Element Park Board .. err I mean members.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 04:03 PM

Assuming we can keep running Caste without many happiness problems (i'm afraid for the Emancipation penalty).

At least, Sugar Island 2 City with National Park will not be affected by Emancipation long as City Population properly controlled.

We just need find new sources of happiness, like Radio (maybe; need it for Submarine as well) and Nationhood with Barracks

Considering next TS spent researching almost all Rifling, we're targeting Bio for turn 157. Using massive bulbing this means researching SM, Physics, Bio in 37 turns.

The bulbing can be done in about 37 as long as all four GP are GS.

We will need sufficient raw Research to complete the chunks of these Technologies that are less than GS bulb size; we keep Research % up we'll be OK; if we are in a jam, we could build Wealth to finance more Research turns; even build Wealth in Moscow for a turn here or there.

Moment. I'll try to open the save to verify something.

First, an observation on present problems: if Rostov grows 15 it will become unealthy despite the Harbor. Do we can afford this? To have one more healthy resource we must wait for city #3 to be settled, when we'll acceed to sheeps.
Or build a grocer to benefir from sugar and wine.

We can wait; Granary will have 32F and deficit at Population 15 will be just -1 Fpt.

Or we can build a Grocer which adds two Health and 3.50 Wpt in Wealth turns (not much, but something extra).

But we need also universities for OU... nice choice. Even if i think the OU is not so important in this game.

We need to decide which Cities will have Universities:

Moscow
Rostov
St. Petersburg
Yaroslavl'
Sugar Island 2 or Yekaterinburg?

Oxford University in Sugar Island 2?

Can try to build Courthouse, Library, University in Sugar Island 2 before Biology, but I'll sure it can't all be done in time, especially while the City is growing for 37 turns; maybe we need to delay Courthouse?

Well, a list:
Beeline to fission:
SM=3628, Phy=6048, Elec= 6804, Fission= 8316 for total 24976 B.
Beeline to Medicine (a deviation, see this game settings)
Bio=5443, Med=6804 for total 12447 B.
Bio is useless (not exactly, i mean for a straight beeline), but needed to bulb Elec and next techs, Medicine worst, but opens Sushi.

Yes, Biology is less useful, but it adds +1F Farms, allows National Park and unlocks Medicine; Yes, Medicine is even less useful, but Sid's Sushi will make you Happy! ;)

Beeline to Rocketry
Steel=4223, Artillery=6048, Rock= 7560 for total 17831 B.
Longer path to Rocketry:
Steam=4838, Rail= 6804, Combustion= 5443, Flight= 7560, Rock= 7560 for total 32205 B.
No doubt, this can delay a lot Nukes if we look only at research, but actually Railroad can have a great payoff with Mining Inc, combustion with stronger and faster Ships, Flight giving the ability to airlift units in new conquered cities. De facto, we have to consider only the difference between Artillery and Flight.

I lean toward the Railroad (Mining, Inc.) and Flight (GS bulbable) path. As I noted in another post, Rocketry is GS bulbable after Ecology which allows our Workers to Scrub Fallout.

Just for a comfortable reference for future discussions. For now, the path is drawn: Rifling, SM, Phy, Bio.
After this we can consider some deviation, probably to Steam to improve workers.

I'm in favour of continuing on to Fission and Medicine, but that could change depending on the World situation.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 04:06 PM

Take it easy, STW!

Surely a worker is needed along with a missionary and a LB. But i prefer to continue the Uni in StPete to fight G's culture. Yek is just grew, so it can switch to worker right now.

Please remember we're 47 turns from Bio at best and 62 from the NP at present. IIRC a FP requires the same turns as a LM, 12 now, 8 after Steam. First improvements must be the plantations and their roads, then 2 lumbermills on hills or anywhere they can be better used, maybe 2 more. By then SM will be in and we can start build FP in the jungle.

Assuming:
- plantations + roads 16*2 = 32
- five jungle preserve 12*5 = 60 (40)
- 2 LumberMills 12*2, to be converted later to FP = 24 + 24 (16+16)
- 2 forest preserve 12*2 = 24 (16)
we need 140 worker turns, or 2 workers for 70 turns (must add some turn due to the lost move on forest/jungle)
this will let room also for 2 WS if we use 3 workers, maybe not immediately (to be self-pillaged after the NP to aid spread Forests or jungles).

We can't be too optimistic on forest/jungle spread: last game (we knew RP, SM and Medicine from the start and we built tons of FPs) we experienced it's very random and can occur in few turns after the FP, some dozen turns or even never.

So we can count on 9 specialists and the one from Merc, until we'll be forced to switch to FM due to impossible Corps maintenance.

Proposal: What about squeeze Steam before Bio? Or even before Phy? The 140 w/t can be considerably lowered (considering steam after SM, so after the plantations down to 92) and also our need for workers and the related maintenance costs for all the other improvements.
Last but not least, revealing coal!

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 04:22 PM

This may have been mentioned earlier in this thread, but I just have to ask again:

Submarines can transport and fire Tactical Nukes?

The following Strategy Article Post claims they do:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7978947&postcount=24

A search for "Submarine" provides the following text:

submarine, 24. radio, combustion.
tactics: carry cruise missiles, hunt battleships, carriers and transports.
counter: attack submarines, destroyers, airships
Submarines are the ultimate hit-and-run unit. Flanking 2 gives them an 80% chance of withdrawal, which is just awesome. Hence they should hunt in packs or be the initial naval units to attack when engaging a large enemy naval stack that has battleships. Though if carrying missiles, should probably lodge those in the enemy's behind first.

Also they can carry tactical nukes, which cost half as much as ICBMs with the same potency. So the submarines can do a cheap nuclear strike on enemy coastal cities.

It makes sense; can anyone verify this actually works in BtS 3.19?

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 04:38 PM

If i can, i'll run some test tomorrow, but i think the information on subs is correct.

As i already pointed out, the most of the AI cities is coastal, so probably adequately escorted submarines loaded with tac nukes can do a good job. The problem is Radio, but this tech can be intersting for its 3 wonders: R&R, Eiffel and CR. all very useful.

We must also take in account that any AI, unless worst enemy of our first victim, will add a -1 diplo ("you nuked our friend") for any nuke we shot. In case this will be G, and he will have 5 cities, this means a -5 diplo with any AI not hating him. and so on until the last one will be furious only due to this penalty. A nice challenge, isn't it?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 04:39 PM

Take it easy, STW!

Surely a worker is needed along with a missionary and a LB. But i prefer to continue the Uni in StPete to fight G's culture. Yek is just grew, so it can switch to worker right now.

OK, you are right St. Petersburg must complete the University; we are losing our Ivory Camp.

Please remember we're 47 turns from Bio at best and 62 from the NP at present. IIRC a FP requires the same turns as a LM, 12 now, 8 after Steam. First improvements must be the plantations and their roads, then 2 lumbermills on hills or anywhere they can be better used, maybe 2 more. By then SM will be in and we can start build FP in the jungle.

Sorry, I did forget we have about a full TS of Rifling yet; OK, maybe two workers a little later? When they're no longer needed, they can be shipped to nearby Islands.

I suggest two temporary Workshops on the Grasslands without Forest/Jungle too.

Assuming:
- plantations + roads 16*2 = 32
- five jungle preserve 12*5 = 60 (40)
- 2 LumberMills 12*2, to be converted later to FP = 24 + 24 (16+16)
- 2 forest preserve 12*2 = 24 (16)
we need 140 worker turns, or 2 workers for 70 turns (must add some turn due to the lost move on forest/jungle)
this will let room also for 2 WS if we use 3 workers, maybe not immediately (to be self-pillaged after the NP to aid spread Forests or jungles).

We can't be too optimistic on forest/jungle spread: last game (we knew RP, SM and Medicine from the start and we built tons of FPs) we experienced it's very random and can occur in few turns after the FP, some dozen turns or even never.

So we can count on 9 specialists and the one from Merc, until we'll be forced to switch to FM due to impossible Corps maintenance.

Three Scientists can be supported by the +6 Fpt surplus as well for a minimum of 12 Specialists.

Proposal: What about squeeze Steam before Bio? Or even before Phy? The 140 w/t can be considerably lowered (considering steam after SM, so after the plantations down to 92) and also our need for workers and the related maintenance costs for all the other improvements.
Last but not least, revealing coal!

Steam Power becomes GS bulbable just before Rocketry, maybe? Not sure we want to wait that long though.

I really rather pursue Fission. Steam Power could take a very long time.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 04:56 PM

Steam Power becomes GS bulbable just before Rocketry, maybe? Not sure we want to wait that long though.

I really rather pursue Fission. Steam Power could take a very long time.

Sun Tzu WuThis is almost a chat :)
No, Steam is bulbable by a GE and maybe a GM. Any other GPerson will bulb anything else. Since we need it and we can't obtain it in trade, what do we lose? Build the Manhattan without Mining Inc and IW is a nightmare. What we lose in research we can gain in production later. No way to be beaten on Phy.

Our main goals are:
Fission (research)
Manhattan (production)
Rocketry (research)
At least our first victim # of cities *1.5 nukes to start seriously the final part of this game (production) so?

A nice challenge define priorities.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 05:35 PM

No, Steam is bulbable by a GE and maybe a GM. Any other GPerson will bulb anything else. Since we need it and we can't obtain it in trade, what do we lose? Build the Manhattan without Mining Inc and IW is a nightmare. What we lose in research we can gain in production later. No way to be beaten on Phy.

Do you want bulbing Research strategies using Great Merchants, Great Artists, and Great Engineers (even though they may be very hard to generate) in addition to Great Scientists? The advantage is GM, GA and GE (GPro too, but they could help only with Liberalism) bulb different Technologies usually than GS, but provide only about 2/3 the Beakers of a GS bulb.

There's also the concern that the Great Person generation becomes so expensive that it takes too long to wait for the next Great Person to generate. This is in part why I'd like to pursue Fission to get it done while Great People are relatively cheap to generate. Even with 10 Specialists in Rostov with Pacifism and National Epic, the 7th Great Person will take just over 10t to complete. Each subsequent Great Person takes about 1.5 turns longer than the previous one until the 11th when the increment is doubled to 3 turns.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 03, 2009, 05:43 PM

No, i don't. Bulbing with non GS is a waste unless you are plenty of them (i.e. an ancient start). But i'd like to pop 2 GM: 1 for Sushi, one for a GAge after Physics oo anyway before Fission. This will add another 100% (always on base GPP) and speed up next Gpersons. In addition, running merchants will give us more cash and the same research/specialist we have had until representation.

A winning strategy is one to have Manhattan built so fast and Rocketry researched by the time this completes. We must try and test the best combination to do this, but always with the conciousness that Manhattan itself is only the first step. After it we need nukes.

greatbeyond

Oct 03, 2009, 06:07 PM

Subs can fire Nukes, but not Attack Subs. I have done quite a bit of testing with nuclear conflagration and will type it up tonight. I have used this game and the last BTS GOTM to experiment.

I will also try to go over the PPP. Not much has changed and we only have so many things we can build in my TS. Any additions will mean something else is delayed or dropped.

culdeus

Oct 03, 2009, 09:23 PM

Yes, for sure subs can launch nukes.

Some real issues I'm running into are that once you start throwing weapons grade plutonium around everyone kills their deals with you. That causes big happy problems. Ghandi doesn't have much help in that department except silk.

I assume we'll globe moscow. With that in place it can pump out one TN every two turns fairly easily. Thing is though that the rest of the empire will be pumping out TNs at the rate of 1 per 5 at best with only a few exceptions at perhaps 1 in 3. That is without golden ages. If this is truly to be treated like a super space race then consider holding off on all these bulbs for the golden age needed.

The other thing is that once you start nuking people the world begins to take a rather dim view of you as a culture. It's really hard to defend when the core production is wrapped up in topping off rockets with radioactive payloads. We should not just prepare, but expect someone to DOW on us. To that end a ICBM isn't a bad thing to have in the back pocket for such an occasion.

A solid navy is much more crucial than I had thought necessary. Maybe this circumnav thing will work out for us after all ;-)

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 03, 2009, 09:58 PM

The following Research path takes us as far as reasonably possible via primarily/exclusively Great Scientist bulbs (as opposed to other Great Person bulbs):

Scientific Method (S3; M34; E45)
Physics (S4; E46)
Biology (S19; A33)
Electricity (S20; E23)
Fission (S14; E33)
Medicine (S28; M35; E47)
Ecology (S29; E40)
Steam Power (S34; M38; E10)
Steel (NB: E11)
Railroad (NB: A44; M14; E13)
Combustion (NB: S45; E4)
Flight (S21; M25; E54)
Rocketry (NB: S43)
Radio (NB: S51; A7)
Assembly Line (NB: E2)
Industrialism (NB: M15; E3)

NB = Not Bulbable via a Great Scientist in a way that doesn't force us to GS bulb a Technology just because they are in the GS bulb path; every such Technology must be useful to us to at least some minimal extent, otherwise we won't waste a Great Science to bulb.

The above list can be reordered as defined in the following paragraphs, but they don't necessarily describe all sensible re-orderings where all Technologies feasibly GS bulbable are so bulbed, with the optional exception of Steam Power:

Bulbing of Ecology can be delayed to the end of this list, but Steam Power would not be bulbable unless it also gets shifted down. Otherwise, Steam Power must be traded or Researched rather than GS bulbed.

Steel can appear anywhere before Railroad without affecting GS bulbing. Railroad can appear anywhere before Combustion without affecting GS bulbing, but must follow Steam Power. Combustion can be anywhere between Railroad and Flight without affecting GS bulbing. Note that the delaying of Steam Power and Steel will improve the chances that either one or both might traded for via an AI Civ, but that may not happen at all, especially if the AIs with those Technologies view us as being too advanced.

Assembly Line should probably appear soon after Steam Power so Factory and Coal/Nuclear Power Plants can improve Production, perhaps around the time Mining, Inc. is founded/spread.

Notice that Fission is completed quite early and Physics allows us to locate and Mine Uranium for the +100% production speed of The Manhattan Project. This very early researching of Fission also allows us to easily build The Manhattan Project (2025H) in a City with moderate production well before Rocketry is completed.

How to utilize very late Great Persons: Toward the end of the Research list, when GS bulbs are no longer useful (after Flight), we could switch to Merchants to help our economy and use Great Merchants to bulb some Technologies (such as Industrialism) that we still need. Otherwise, GS could be used for Golden Ages or Academies. How to utilize very late Great Persons needs further investigation.

Refrigeration can be GS bulbed after Steam Power if its +1 for Water units is considered useful.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 04, 2009, 07:24 AM

Maybe, 10 times underscored, maybe i solved my HW/SW problems.
I got a professional (and very expensive, but old) sound card, a Creamware with 3 DSP.
I use it for my musical works and it's just great since it has virtually no latency (5ms).
I suspected it can be the source of my troubles, so i uninstalled its SW and physically removed it. Now i need to work with my PC for a couple days and see what happens.

If it shows stability, the problem was surely there, so all i have to do (sh*t) is to buy another card with low latency, maybe a Terratec. If any of you knows something on the matter, i welcome any suggestion.

In the meantime, eagerly awaiting for GB playing his TS.

We can't pretend he builds in 12 turns all what is needed, since maybe 30 turns are not enough. So go on, priorities are clear (maybe).

STW Uranium is revealed by Physics, but it's disposable with Fission. (the basics, man, the basics :) )
Sure we'll try to trade for Steel, not easy but not so difficult.
But i propose to research Steam, even before Physics. We gain a lot with workers and we can see Coal and maybe decide some additions a variations on our city plans.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 04, 2009, 08:35 AM

STW Uranium is revealed by Physics, but it's disposable with Fission. (the basics, man, the basics :) )

Thanks for pointing out that mistake; I just edited my post to correct it.

But i propose to research Steam, even before Physics. We gain a lot with workers and we can see Coal and maybe decide some additions a variations on our city plans.

We can start Steam Power before Physics, but when we get the two Great Scientists to bulb Physics we may still be researching Steam Power, do we bulb them and complete Physics to reveal Uranium?

I'm still convinced that our next Research goal after Biology should be Fission -> Medicine to found Sid's Sushi. I like unclethrill's idea of using much of the extra Food generated by Sid's Sushi to support huge numbers of Merchants. As a result, I'll add that we probably will never need to run Merchants in our Great Person Farms, except to generate the Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi in Rostov or even Sugar Island 2.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 04, 2009, 10:30 AM

What is the hold up GB? I thought you were going to play on Friday or Saturday? We really can't keep having these long delays or we will never finish.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 04, 2009, 11:34 AM

The following Technology table contains information useful to plan our future Research path. Size is the number of Beakers displayed in F6. #GS is the number of Great Scientist bulbs a Technology can take without wasting GSs. Rem. is the Remaining Beakers after the GS bulbs are executed. GSp, GAp, GMp and GEp are the Priorities of the respective Great Person for this Technology. "Alternate Techology to Research" lists an alternative Technology to research while Great Scientist(s) are generated for the Technology in column #1; this should be the Technology we are working on in the Rocketry path, either via Flight or Artillery; otherwise it will be a Technology outside that path like Assembly Line, Radio, etc.

GS bulbs are 2250 + 4.5 <Civ Pop.>; 2475B at Pop. 50; 2700B at Pop. 100; for simplicity a GS bulb is assumed to be 2700B in the table below for computing the remainder of Beakers that needs to be Researched.

Technology Size #GS Rem. GSp GAp GMp GEp Alternate Tech. to Research
================= ==== = ==== === === === === ===========================
Scientific Method 3628 1 928 3 34 45 Steam Power
Physics 6048 2 648 4 46 Steam Power
Biology 5443 2 43 19 33 Steam Power
Electricity 6804 2 1404 20 23 Steel
Fission 8316 3 216 14 33 Steel
Medicine 6804 2 1404 28 35 47 Railroad
Ecology 8316 3 216 29 40 Radio or Railroad (n. likely)
Steam Power 4838 1 2138 34 38 10 Radio (not likely)
Steel 4233 11 Assembly Line
Artillery 6048 71 Railroad (Mining, Inc.)
Railroad 6804 44 14 13 Assembly Line
Combustion 5443 45 4 Assembly Line
Flight 7560 2 2160 21 25 54 Industrialism
Rocketry 7560 43 Combustion - Industrialism
Assembly Line 7560 <T.Pen> 2 None
Radio 9072 <Subs> 51 7 None
Industrialism 9828 <Mar.;Tanks> 15 3 None

In the #GS column we see that we need 18 more Great Scientists - one free GS from Physics or 17 GS; make that 16, since we are unlikely to bulb Steam Power. We need a Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi, so we need a minimum of 17 more Great People, 16 GS and one GM. We have generated five Great People so far, four GS and one GE (for Mining, Inc.), so we need our minimum total of Great People over the entire Game is just 22; with good Great People Farms that should be achievable by the time we are ready for Nuclear War.

However, we need to get Sugar Island 2 Great Person Farm up by completion of Biology and National Park around turn 172! That involves about 140-150 pre-Steam Power Worker turns (three Workers for 47-50 turns) or about 96-100 post-Steam Power Worker turns (two Workers for 48-50 turns). In either case we should start 50 turns before the expected completion turn (172) which makes our start turn 122. Well, we're not going to get anything on Sugar Island 2 that soon, so we just need to do our best to get our Settler and 2-3 Workers there as soon as possible.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 04, 2009, 12:47 PM

Preface:

The ideal percentage of Research turns is 100%. There are important implications though, such as no Wealth from Commerce ever and Banks and other Wealth multiplying building are useless, unless there are non-Commerce sources of Wealth like Religious Shrines, Merchant Specialists and oddly enough Corporate Headquarters' income.

Banks, Markets, Grocers and Wall Street work best with at least some Commerce converted to Wealth, but that implies Research turns < 100% which is not ideal for the Research rush.

Religious Shrine:

Use a Great Prophet to build a Religious Shrine in the Holy City. The Shrine provides 1 Wpt for each City where the Religion is present.

Courthouses:

All good Civ4 players know that the best way to start reducing the deficit is building Courthouses, especially those furthest from the Capital when not running State Property. Reducing a City's maintenance costs by 50% is half the solution to the deficit elimination problem. Best of all, the Courthouse works just as well in a Wealth turn (Research 00%) or a Research turn (Research 100%).

Well, Courthouses by definition can solve at best half the deficit problem, assuming they are built in all Cities, even the Capital where its effect would be the least.

Hiring Merchants:

The next best thing that can be done is running Merchants in Cities, especially those with high Wealth multipliers like Banks, Markets, Grocers and Wall Street. Merchant's Wealth output like Scientist's Science output is unaffected by the Commerce slider, so it really can eliminate a Wealth deficit completely. Also, it would be synergistic to build Banks, Markets, Grocers and Wall Street where many Merchants work to maximize their Wealth output.

Building Wealth:

The quickest and simplest way to run Research 100% is to build Wealth in enough Cities to eliminate the deficit. This is what the better players do after they have hired all the Merchants they can reasonably justify. Built Wealth has already been multiplied by any Hammer multiplying building, so its Wealth is not multiplied by Wealth multiplying buildings.

Corporate Headquarters' Income:

The Corporate Headquarters of a Corporation receives Wealth as corporate income from each City where Corporation has spread to. This Wealth is multiplied by all Wealth Multiplying buildings in the City where the Corporate Headquarters are located. It is especially advantageous to found as many Corporations as possible in the City with Wall Street present, so the Corporation's income can be tripled assuming all other Wealth multiplying buildings are present.

Suggestions:

0) Build Courthouses in all Cities, especially those far away from the Capital.

1) Hire Merchants in Cities that are unlikely to generate a Great Person and in one City that will generate a Great Person. Each Merchant provides 3 Wpt.

2) Build Wealth in Cities where there's nothing more important to build. In addition to the Merchants, it may be enough to eliminate the current deficit.

3) Build Sid's Sushi (Rice is the qualifying Resource) and Mining, inc. (Gold is the qualifying Resource) in Moscow. They are compatible Corporations, thus can be founded in the same City. Build Grocer and Wall Street in Moscow to maximize both Corporation's income.

4) Spread Sid's Sushi to all Cities, especially Great Person Farms. Use the extra Food to hire some Merchants and increase Population to hire some more Merchants.

5) Spread Mining, Inc. to all Cities, especially Great Person Farms. Use the extra Hammers to build needed buildings, units and to build Wealth!

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 04, 2009, 03:36 PM

We're faraway from Corps, so the bunch of specialists we can run after Sushi will not provide that great benefit. A good addition, but mainly they will avoid our less food-rich cities will starve i case of Global Warming. Anyway, spread a corporation to a city without a CH is a suicide. Unless this Copr is Mining Inc and the city can complete the CH in 3 turns.

But the benefits in researching Steam soon are huge.

If we need some 17 GSs to complete the most useful techs, well better research the hard way. I can easily see next 5-6 GSs, but after then we'll need to research or take different pathsubtil we pop them.

About my PC, it wasn't the sound card. It keeps its troubles. So, i'm now targeting Acronis and i need to reinstall from scratch to verify if i'm right.
Obviously, being the disk image creator it was installed after the raw OS, so it's present in any OS image (double sh*t)

Of course i got images of my working states, so i can always go back to those.

BLubmuz

Oct 04, 2009, 03:41 PM

What is the hold up GB? I thought you were going to play on Friday or Saturday? We really can't keep having these long delays or we will never finish.Yes. GB, can you please explain us why you tell us you play a certain day and you regularly play 2 or more days later?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 04, 2009, 07:27 PM

We're faraway from Corps, so the bunch of specialists we can run after Sushi will not provide that great benefit. A good addition, but mainly they will avoid our less food-rich cities will starve i case of Global Warming.

We don't need Corporations yet to eliminate our deficit. Before the 7th City, it could be done by building Wealth alone in some of our Cities, including Moscow. However, it can definitely be done by running a few Merchants and one City less building Wealth.

Anyway, spread a corporation to a city without a CH is a suicide. Unless this Copr is Mining Inc and the city can complete the CH in 3 turns.

Sorry, I forget to mention in the suggestions to build Courthouses first, since they will reduce the deficit by 50%. I have corrected that omission by adding suggestion number 0.

But the benefits in researching Steam soon are huge.

I see the advantage of Steam Power (+50% Workers; Levee; prerequisite to Railroad and Assembly Line), but I want to complete it as quickly as possible by reducing our deficit to 0 and running Research 100% straight through it in as little as 20 turns!

If we need some 17 GSs to complete the most useful techs, well better research the hard way. I can easily see next 5-6 GSs, but after then we'll need to research or take different pathsubtil we pop them.

We can bulb more than 5-6 GSs by varying our path:

We probably can utilize more then the next 5-6 GSs, but researching the Rocketry path while waiting for GSs to bulb the Fission -> Medicine path.

After Sugar Island 2 Great Person Farm is running, our GPP generation rate will nearly double, allowing a Great Scientist generation rate much greater than one Great Person Farm, but since the cost of each new GP goes up linearly and quadratically every 10th GP, the rate of GP generated will not be nearly double, but much less, perhaps +50% more GP generated from the time the National Park was completed, although both Great Farms will generate the same number of GP after National Park completion.

Complete Great Person Schedule:

The GPP sequence in our SGOTM-10 Game is 135, 270, 405, 540, 675, 810, 945, 1080, 1215, 1350, 1620, 1890, 2160, 2430, 2700, 2970, 3240, 3510, 3780, 4050, 4455, 4860, 5265, ...

See following post for evidence that the GPP increment (135 in our case) is itself incremented by (135) after every set of ten Great People (and not just after the 10th GP):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4478964&postcount=17

t122: 6th GP will be generated in 4 turns while the Harbor in Rostov is built (Scientific Method).
t133: 7th GP will be generated in 945 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 10.16 turns (Rostov; Physics)
t144: 8th GP will be generated in 1080 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 11.61 turns (Rostov; Physics)
t157: 9th GP will be generated in 1215 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 13.06 turns (Rostov; Biology + free GS)
t172: 10th GP will be generated in 1350 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 14.52 turns (Rostov; Electricity)
t172: Sugar Island 2 National Park starts operation .48 turns later
t189: 11th GP will be generated in 1620 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 17.52 turns (Rostov; Electricity)
t196: 12th GP will be generated in 1890 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 23.63 turns (Sugar2; Fission)
t213: 13th GP will be generated in 2160 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 23.22 turns (Rostov; Fission)
t227: 14th GP will be generated in 2430 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 30.38 turns (Sugar2; Fission)
t242: 15th GP will be generated in 2700 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 29.03 turns (Rostov; Medicine)
t264: 16th GP will be generated in 2970 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 37.13 turns (Sugar2; Medicine)
t278: 17th GP will be generated in 3420 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 36.77 turns (Rostov; Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi)
t308: 18th GP will be generated in 3510 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 43.88 turns (Sugar2; Flight)
t319: 19th GP will be generated in 3780 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 40.65 turns (Rostov; Flight)
t358: 20th GP will be generated in 4050 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 50.63 turns (Sugar2; Ecology)
t367: 21th GP will be generated in 4455 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 47.90 turns (Rostov; Ecology)
t419: 22th GP will be generated in 4860 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 60.75 turns (Sugar2; Ecology)
t424: 23th GP will be generated in 5265 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 56.61 turns (Rostov; Steam Power ;) )

Sugar Island 2 City and National Park helps:

As you can see, the Great Person Schedule above is slower than we'd like and although the Sugar Island 2 City and National Park nearly double the GPP rate, the GP generation rate is still rather slow and becomes slower ...:

2 GP in 24t when the 12th GP is generated
2 GP in 31t when the 14th GP is generated
2 GP in 37t when the 16th GP is generated
2 GP in 50t when the 20th GP is generated
2 GP in 61t when the 22nd GP is generated

It starts humming at a GP per 12t, but quickly slows to a snails pace of a GP per 30t by the time the 22nd GP is popped.

However, the lateness of the Great Scientists that with bulb Medicine and the Great Merchant for bulbing Sid's Sushi seem later than we want, so we may want to bulb fewer GS per Technology. A good example is use just two GS bulbs on Fission rather than three GS bulbs. Otherwise, we can skip a GS bulb whenever we don't mind hard Researching. We can also hoard a few Great Scientists until the Population explosion of Sid's Sushi is in full progress ... for each additional 100P, a GS bulbs 450B more.

The Power of Sid's Sushi:

We have 8 Sushi Resources now and 14 in my list of 15 Island City Sites we can settle and should before the AI does, making a total of 22. Thus Sid's Sushi could provide 0.75 * 22 = 16.5 Fpt and 3.0 * 22 = 66 Culture per turn, allowing access to even more Seafood and other Resources in Ring 3 (150C), Ring 4 (750C) and even eventually Ring 5 (7500C). The power of +16.5 Fpt means a Population growth for every 1-2 turns for small Cities, every 2-3 turns for mid-size Cities and every 3-4 turns for Large Cities. What does this mean for Great Person Farms? More Specialists can be supported and more Great People can be generated faster! We may want to Research Medicine immediately (saving 2 GS not bulbed) after Biology to start Sid's Sushi sooner!

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Oct 05, 2009, 12:48 AM

What is the hold up GB? I thought you were going to play on Friday or Saturday? We really can't keep having these long delays or we will never finish.

Apparently My post was missed where I asked if it was alright to proceed: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8514204&postcount=774
No reply, but lots of discussion. I will proceed shortly as it appears there is no more real discussion for my TS. I'm double checking the past 4 pages of posts as I go.

greatbeyond

Oct 05, 2009, 04:09 AM

Here are the long awaited results of my TS.

The Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Fifth_Element_SG010_AD1794_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

1770
Finish unit movement, trade Lib to Mao for 220G + WM, MM a little, Pvtr sinks a English Galley before it gets into port. DG shows 5GPT so I cancel our Fish for 3GPT to get his excess. As soon as I do, he only shows 1 GPT?

IBT - Nada

1772
G gets Corp, won't trade. We are at 100% research

IBT - Nil

1774
Pvtrs sinks G's Galley, more galleys are showing up and there aer settlers in the coastal cities. Pvtrs pillage resources and blockade.

IBT - DG cancels Peace treaty

1776
Our pillaging Knight reveals "The Holy City" (Barb). DG has a Musketeer in Marseilles. DG gives us 8GPT for our Fish, Pvtrs pillage and blockade, sink Galleys.
GS born in Rostov.

IBT - zip

1778
Pvtrs pillage and blockade, sink Galleys.

IBT - zero

1780
Novgorod finishes CH, starts Settler.
Rostov finishes Harbor, starts Uni. Max growth off and on to grow to happy cap
Pvtrs pillage and blockade, sink Galleys.

IBT - void

1782
GG born in St Pete
Pvttrt survives Caravel attack

IBT - Churchill asks us to DOW Mao, I decline. We trade him Clams for 4 GPT

1784
Pvtrs pillage and blockade, sink Galleys.

IBT - Pass 5 million mark in Pop

1786
Pvtrs pillage and blockade, sink Galleys.

IBT - G wants to trade WM, I decline

1788
Pvtrs pillage and blockade, sink Galleys.

IBT - empty

1790
Yaroslaval completes Library starts Galleon 8T.
Pvtrs pillage and blockade, sink Galleys.

IBT - Lost Ivory to G's culture

1792
Churchill gets Corp and will trade for RP +25G

IBT - Rifling is in, start SM. Research is set to Zero. We need money!

1794
Game saved no units moved.

Galley containing Settler and Xbow is 1 NE of Yakutsk, ~ 3 turns to settle on Sugar Isle 2
Pvtr 33 is SW of Paliputra, G has a Caravel there
Pvtr 27 & 32 NE of Atlanta healing/blockading
Pvtr 30 & 31 healing NW of Rostov

Both Churchill and Roosevelt are building lots of Caravels as a counter to our Privateers. We need to have at least 2 and probably 3 Pvtrs n all our stacks used to intercept Galleys.

Moscow - Rifleman 2T, Pop 15/19 grow 36, next build; Obs 3T?
St Pete - Mace 2T ( Do we want to complete?) Pop 8/17 grow 1, next build; Obs 11T?
Novgorod - Settler 15T, chop due in 2T. Pop 8/17, stagnant.
Rostov - Univ. 5T, Pop 17/18 shrink in 11T. Running 8 Scientists and 1 GE. GS due in 8T
Yaroslavl - Galleon 6T, Pop 8/16 grow in 4.
Yekaterinburg - Settler 1T, Pop 7/13 stagnant.
Yakutsk - Lib 14T, Pop 2/12, grow in 7T

Turn Log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1770 AD to 1794 AD:

Turn 395, 1770 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin adopts Representation!
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Logging Game to File: sgotm10.txt
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Trade Lib to Mao for 220G and WM
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.00) vs Churchill's Galley (2.20)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 395, 1770 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Galley!
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) (4.56) vs Roosevelt's Galley (2.20)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 395, 1770 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 13 (63/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 13 (50/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 395, 1770 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) has defeated Roosevelt's Galley!
Turn 395, 1770 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 396, 1772 AD: The borders of Yakutsk have expanded!

Turn 397, 1774 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (5.58) vs Gandhi's Galley (2.20)
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 397, 1774 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Gandhi's Galley!
Turn 397, 1774 AD: Christianity has spread in St. Petersburg.

Turn 398, 1776 AD: Stalin's Caravel 1 (3.30) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 398, 1776 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Stalin's Caravel 1 is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Stalin's Caravel 1 is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Stalin's Caravel 1 has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Galileo Galilei (Great Scientist) has been born in Rostov (Stalin)!
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Louis Daguerre (Great Engineer) has been born in Boston (Roosevelt)!
Turn 398, 1776 AD: Gandhi adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 399, 1778 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (6.00) vs Churchill's Galley (2.20)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 399, 1778 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 399, 1778 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Churchill's Galley!

Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.60) vs Churchill's Galley (2.20)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 400, 1780 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Galley!
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (6.00) vs Gandhi's Galley (2.20)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 400, 1780 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated Gandhi's Galley!
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Caravel (3.00) vs Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (4.22)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Combat Odds: 19.9%
Turn 400, 1780 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 400, 1780 AD: Belisarius (Great General) has been born in St. Petersburg (Stalin)!

Turn 401, 1782 AD: De Gaulle adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 401, 1782 AD: Henry Bessemer (Great Engineer) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 401, 1782 AD: Nanjing (Churchill) has been captured by the Chinese Empire!!!
Turn 401, 1782 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Free Religion!

Turn 402, 1784 AD: Varanasi (Gandhi) has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 404, 1788 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (6.60) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 404, 1788 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (6.60) vs Churchill's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 404, 1788 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 404, 1788 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Churchill's Caravel!

Turn 405, 1790 AD: Your Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) has plundered 2? outside Philadelphia!
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Your Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) has plundered 2? outside Boston!
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Your Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) has plundered 2? outside Atlanta!
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Moscow will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 8.
Turn 405, 1790 AD: De Gaulle has 110 gold available for trade.
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) (6.00) vs Roosevelt's Galley (2.20)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 405, 1790 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Roosevelt's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) has defeated Roosevelt's Galley!
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Your Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Yekaterinburg.
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Moscow will grow to size 15 on the next turn.
Turn 405, 1790 AD: Rostov will grow to size 17 on the next turn.

Turn 406, 1792 AD: Your Privateer 31 (Rostov) has plundered 3? outside Bombay!
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Your Privateer 31 (Rostov) has plundered 2? outside Hastings!
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Your Privateer 27 (Moscow) has plundered 3? outside Boston!
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Moscow has grown to size 15.
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Moscow has become unhealthy.
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Rostov has grown to size 17.
Turn 406, 1792 AD: Roosevelt will trade Corporation
Turn 406, 1792 AD: You have plundered 3? from the Plantation!
Turn 406, 1792 AD: You have discovered Rifling!

Turn 407, 1794 AD: Your Privateer 27 (Moscow) has plundered 3? outside Atlanta!
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Churchill has 70 gold available for trade.

I'll post my experiences with nuclear armegeddon tonight.

BLubmuz

Oct 05, 2009, 05:51 AM

greatbeyond

Oct 05, 2009, 06:20 AM

I think the delay was mostly a mix up in communications. I meant to post the second "alright to play?" Saturday night but with work and some special events (and very little sleep) I couldn't get to it.

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 10:18 AM

If you need me to swap, I can. Let me know and if so I'll try to get a PPP together before I get off work in 12 hours

BLubmuz

Oct 05, 2009, 11:35 AM

If you need me to swap, I can. Let me know and if so I'll try to get a PPP together before I get off work in 12 hoursOK for me.
Still, if Culdeus is around he can play after you if he likes to be back in the roster.

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 11:35 AM

Just opened the save.

So my first question is why are there 2 privateers sitting outside of Rostov in the fishing resources? I don't understand this placement. There are no sites for the AI to settle close by and the frigate will protect them from barbs so wouldn't those 2 privateers be of better use somewhere else?

culdeus

Oct 05, 2009, 01:05 PM

OK, better late than never :) Not bad, it seems, but i can't open the save.

I have to set-up my PC, so if anyone volunteers fro a swap, better. Maybe Culdeus if he likes to and if he think to have catch up with our discussions.

Surely i can play in the weekend.

I think I'm following the near term stuff fairly well. Not much to do but caretake in next TS is there?

I will say the nuclear war thing is very time intensive to play out. The MM is intense with all the cleanup of the nuclear waste, and to keep the entire economy from collapsing in on itself and causing disbands. There are many, many aspects to handle that do not present themselves in a normal conquest.

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 01:26 PM

So do you want to play this TS culdeus? I'm good either way. In fact with midterms this week it would be better for me if you did but I can play if you're not ready.

culdeus

Oct 05, 2009, 01:33 PM

So do you want to play this TS culdeus? I'm good either way.

Tonight is rough for me. Have a late work outing to attend. I might be able to pop out a PPP tonight and play tomorrow if all goes real well.

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 01:43 PM

BLubmuz

Oct 05, 2009, 02:52 PM

Tonight is rough for me. Have a late work outing to attend. I might be able to pop out a PPP tonight and play tomorrow if all goes real well.

Then I'll plan to let you play next if you can get to it and if there isn't a PPP posted in about 6 hours, then I will try to put one together instead. That way one of us will be able to play tomorrow. Sound good?It's not a risk that one of you waste time and efforts to put together a PPP to see the other play instead? It's up to you, anyway. My duty is assure someone will play soon. Not a problem on this, this time. ;) :lol:

Just be care to place the cities where the signs are, they are the result of long discussions.

BTW UT, news about Mesix? Sweetacshon is lost, i think. Pity he's the oldest member of this poor team.

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 03:04 PM

We are without Mesix for at least another month. He is getting pummeled at school, I think.

No problem on the PPP. It is fairly simple for this TS so even if 2 get made, neither will require much time.

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 04:38 PM

greatbeyond

Oct 05, 2009, 06:04 PM

Now you realize why the two Pvtrs were outside of Rostov. They were both injured and needed to heal and had to get some distance from the AI Caravels. What you don't see is the 3 Caravels in around Bombay in addition to the one to the SW of Rostov. A healed Pvtr is more than a match for any Caravel, but four against two is inviting disaster. I mentioned this in my after-action report. The AI is pumping out lots of Caravels to counter our Pvtrs. I wondered if we stacked our Caravels with a Frigate, Caravel, or Galleon, does it make it so the AI can't attack the Pvtrs?

I have been attacking whatever presented itself, whether it be lone Caravels or Galleys. This has presented a problem with the lone Pvtr near Paliputra. Thankfully it has survived two counterattacks. On the other hand it is making Churchill, Roosevelt, and Gandhi very careful about sending out their ships. We need to build up stacks of at least three Pvtrs. That should be good against any four Caravels. We need to keep on sinking all their shipping. This does three things: keeps them from settling anymore spots, makes their hammer investments in naval units wasted, and builds up our naval unit strengths and allows us to get GG without having a ground war against the other Civs.

Tristam (Our Knight, or does someone like Gallahad better?) is busy pillaging the Barbs. I have started a Galleon in Yaroslavl to use for launching seaborne attacks to steal Workers. This way we won't have to build any ourselves.

I'm wondering about the following strategy for crippling the AIs:

A strong Navy to keep any invaders away AND a stack of 5 to 6 Rifles pillaging all AI improvements, one Civ at a time. This will keep them from ever getting too close to us in power. Are 6 Riflemen enough? Should we use our GG for s supermedic to add to the stack?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 05, 2009, 06:59 PM

Great Galley Hunt & nice TS, greatbeyond!

For those of us who can't open the Save or find it too bothersome to do ...

Here are some selected Pics of the Map, F1 City List, an the F4 Diplomatic - Technology Tab. City Screens will appear in my next post.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 05, 2009, 07:09 PM

Here are the Pics of the City Screens.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 05, 2009, 07:25 PM

I would like to see some opinion on whether we should be attacking caravels or if we should stick to galleys and let the caravels come at us.

In the save, there appear to be a lot of caravels rolling around and I'm afraid of losing a couple privateers if we get too aggressive.

Our main target will also be the ship that can carry Settlers, since that is primarily what we want to stop.

Have we cleared our primary City Sites #2-8 of all AI and Barbarian Galleys? If yes, then we should start targeting the Caravels before the AIs get both Astronomy and Chemistry.

Mao Zedong doesn't want Astronomy; does that mean he has it already?

Obviously, we should not take on too many Caravels with too few Privateers.

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Oct 05, 2009, 07:25 PM

I've played several games with Nukes and have learned some valuable lessons. Invariably these games run rather long. The Manhattan Project takes a long time to complete.

Some key points first:
-Tac Nukes can be launched from a Sub, city (including a friendly AI city IIRC), or fort (friendly forts too, IIRC).
-They can only be transported by a Sub and Missile Cruiser
-They can be airlifted between cities.
-Tac Nukes have a strike distance of 4 tiles. This does not count diagonally.
-Tac Nukes and ICBMs have the same devastation power.
-One Nuke substantially damages every unit in the tile.
-Nukes damage a 3 tile square area (9 tiles) causing movement costs to double.
-A trick to use is to offset the Nuke from the intended target enough so that the city is on the edge of the damaged area. It does not suffer any less damage. That way the attacking units do not suffer the movement cost penalty.
-Two Nukes will destroy every unit in a tile, unless there is a bomb shelter. Then three Nukes are required
-Nukes work great on fleets of AI ships. So long invasion fleet!

Here is the tactic that I found that worked the best. Especially for a map where most of the cities are on/near the coast.

Amphibious:
Place TNs in subs and station off the coast along with a transport holding a couple of units.
If we are sufficiently advanced, (say Infantry vs Muskets) we could use just one Nuke per city and enough units (# of defenders plus 1).
otherwise
two Nukes per city and only one attacker is needed. If we have sufficiently strong units, one defender in a city could be enough after we take it.

Land war:
Position Nukes within reach of cities closest to the border, building Forts as necessary to get within the required four tiles.
Use Cossacks as the attackers as they have more movement and can strike a city two tiles from our borders. If we get that far, Modern Armor can work too.
If we have Attack Choppers, use them to eliminate reinforcements being sent to the nuked cities.
Use ICBMs to target build ups of AI forces that are in AI cities or tiles too far to strike from the border. Use enough to do more than wound the units. You eliminate the units without direct combat.

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 07:32 PM

Okay so I guess I'll go ahead and work up a PPP. Cul you can take the next TS

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 05, 2009, 08:28 PM

greatbeyond, wonderful and quite concise description of the coming Nuclear War using Tactical Nukes!

An Airport sounds like the best way to transport a Tactical Nuke from its City of Origin to the City that will either launch it directly, transport it to the launching Fort, or stow it at Port for a Submarine delivery.

If we have Attack Choppers, use them to eliminate reinforcements being sent to the nuked cities.

I hope we Win before were able to build Gunships, since Gunships require Advanced Flight!

Use ICBMs to target build ups of AI forces that are in AI cities or tiles too far to strike from the border. Use enough to do more than wound the units. You eliminate the units without direct combat.

Of course the same can be said of Tactical Nukes, assuming they are close enough to the target at launch time.

Although ICBMs and Tactical Nuke and single use and very expensive they can easily take out many times their Hammer value in enemy units, so that they are actually a cheaper to kill than build dozens of conventional units, even Mechanized Infantry and Advanced Armor!

Forgot to mention: Great job on getting Rifling in your latest TS! :goodjob:

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 08:40 PM

PPP

Turn 130 - 143

Units:

Knight - Continue to pillage and collect workers if possible.
Privateers - Kill, kill then kill some more. If possible, don't die.
Galleon 1 - Take settler to city spot 2, then return for next settler.

Cities:

Moscow - Finish Rifle, Grocer (+13 W), Settler, Observ
SP - Finish Mace, CH, Hermitage (To push back on G's culture)
Rostov - Finish Univ, Observ
Yek - Finish Settler, Finish Barracks, HE
Novo - Finish Settler, Lib
Yar -Finish Galleon, Privateer
Yak - Finish Lib,

All new cities - CH

Workers:

Finish current work
Load up 2 to send to City site 2 to start LM work.
Build more WS around Yek.
Hook up ivory
Finish sugar and plantation other sugar, then mine copper

Techs:

SM: Bulb with GS in Rostov, Finish
SP: Will take rest of TS.

Are we willing to trade RP to Roos for Corp???

unclethrill

Oct 05, 2009, 08:42 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 05, 2009, 10:14 PM

Okay so I guess I'll go ahead and work up a PPP. Cul you can take the next TS

Wish list:

3-6 more Workers, built or captured. We desperately need more Workers now. We really should have had two Workers per City for the first few Cities. I suggest we shuttle 3 Workers from Island to Island as needed to quickly improve Tiles; for example, three Workers should work on the first land based Food Resource at the same time, so the City can make use of the Resource on the 3rd turn or 5th turn (where Chopping a Jungle/Forest was required); the same could be done for a Hammer Resource. Our City development is pathetic because we never build enough Workers. Playing a Game with insufficient Workers is the hard way to Win with an Inferior Date. With so many experienced players on this Team, I just can't believe we have gone so far with such a glaring error in our Play. It has something to do with Team Dynamics no doubt, but with a negative rather than positive effect and I fear that most of us don't even want to admit it.

A Worker to go along with the Settler and Crossbowman in the Galleon 1-NE of Yakutsk.

A Courthouse in Yakutsk.

A few Islamic Missionaries; one in St. Petersburg and/or Novgorod.

A Grocer in Moscow and Rostov.

A Christian Monastery in St. Petersburg to help resist Gandhi's Culture.

A Barracks, Heroic Epic and several Workshops in Yekaterinburg.

A University in Yaroslavl'.

Build Bank in 1-2 of Novgorod, Rostov, Yaroslavl' and Yekaterinburg, so we can build Wall Street in Moscow when we get Corporation.

A City on Sugar Island 2 starting a Library and University; future National Park site; maybe Oxford University too.

Build Workshops in St. Petersburg, Novgorod and especially Yekaterinburg; Sorry, I forgot, we don't have enough Workers to do this.

Research: Start and complete Steam Power this TS; build Wealth in Moscow (after completing Grocer) when necessary to maintain 100% Research slider.

Trade: consider acceptable terms for Corporation; I say wait for the possibility of trading for Corporation with an AI that would accept something other than Astronomy, Replaceable Parts or Chemistry; even consider Researching it (7t) to deny the AI further Technologies in trade.

Next TS: Assembly Line?

More units for expansion: complete 3 Settlers, including those in progress, 3 Riflemen to go overseas; total of 3 Islamic Missionaries; 3-6 Workers (already mentioned).

A few more Galleons, Frigates and especially Privateers.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 05, 2009, 10:24 PM

Sweetacshon

Oct 06, 2009, 06:12 AM

Lurking (with interest): I really only get a chance 1-2 a week to read properly, and the MM discussion is so in-depth that I can not possibly add any value. I think it's going quite well, and the tech path is coming along nicely. Using a navy, or in this case a pirate navy, is a great move, and I was considering such things a few weeks back.
Yeah right!:D Anyway, privateers will be chosen to defend against the caravels even underneath a frigate if not at war, similar to the way a human unit can be in the same tile as an AI defending against another AI and not be involved in the defence. (not tested in 3.19 or BUFFY) However, there is no reason the frigate can't be a medic (and I must say that a GG super-medic frigate is an interesting thought here!!) to provide healing support. This also leaves the frigate on hand in case it is decided that a spot just can't be given up to an AI that has sunk the privateers. I see no reason not to DoW an AI to inconvenience them if the power ratings suggest peace can be regained quickly (is this still the case?) - the AI will soon hate us anyway, and it also provides a pillaging opportunity for those 6 rifles that were mentioned earlier - or better 4 rifles and 2 knights. These units and the galleons to take them should be ready or at least close to hand.

STW, worker shortages have always been a thorn in the side of this team. I can't explain it. Best to slip a few into your TS without mentioning it. :p Perhaps we're always trying to juggle too many balls at once and not being single minded enough. For instance, the proposed and agreed REX at the start wasn't really done, and I note Oxford is still not built. I'm not judging on this game, because I haven't been close enough to the play, but some players/teams do have the ability to stop everything else and build the 6 unis and then Oxford in a single TS, for example. I'm not referring to just Oxford, btw, in general this is something I feel could be done better in 5th Element. To see StP still working unimproved tiles is rough. But I don't mean to belittle what's been achieved in a tough variant, I'm very impressed, and wish I could help out, but RL is not allowing it right now. I'll just have to lurk and comment when I can. Go team!

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 06:41 AM

Lurking (with interest): I really only get a chance 1-2 a week to read properly, and the MM discussion is so in-depth that I can not possibly add any value. I think it's going quite well, and the tech path is coming along nicely. Using a navy, or in this case a pirate navy, is a great move, and I was considering such things a few weeks back.

Thanks, its been a Team effort.

:D Anyway, privateers will be chosen to defend against the caravels even underneath a frigate if not at war, similar to the way a human unit can be in the same tile as an AI defending against another AI and not be involved in the defence. (not tested in 3.19 or BUFFY) However, there is no reason the frigate can't be a medic (and I must say that a GG super-medic frigate is an interesting thought here!!) to provide healing support. This also leaves the frigate on hand in case it is decided that a spot just can't be given up to an AI that has sunk the privateers. I see no reason not to DoW an AI to inconvenience them if the power ratings suggest peace can be regained quickly (is this still the case?) - the AI will soon hate us anyway, and it also provides a pillaging opportunity for those 6 rifles that were mentioned earlier - or better 4 rifles and 2 knights. These units and the galleons to take them should be ready or at least close to hand.

Maybe a Galleon with loaded Medic 3 would work.

STW, worker shortages have always been a thorn in the side of this team. I can't explain it. Best to slip a few into your TS without mentioning it. :p Perhaps we're always trying to juggle too many balls at once and not being single minded enough. For instance, the proposed and agreed REX at the start wasn't really done, and I note Oxford is still not built. I'm not judging on this game, because I haven't been close enough to the play, but some players/teams do have the ability to stop everything else and build the 6 unis and then Oxford in a single TS, for example. I'm not referring to just Oxford, btw, in general this is something I feel could be done better in 5th Element. To see StP still working unimproved tiles is rough. But I don't mean to belittle what's been achieved in a tough variant, I'm very impressed, and wish I could help out, but RL is not allowing it right now. I'll just have to lurk and comment when I can. Go team!

The Team is doing Great in my opinion; Building Workers is in my opinion, our greastest weakness.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sweetacshon

Oct 06, 2009, 07:31 AM

Thanks, its been a Team effort.

The Team is doing Great in my opinion; Building Workers is in my opinion, our greastest weakness.

For sure. I don't mean to imply otherwise, or to seem to be throwing about accusations of poor play. The play and planning has been fantastic. :thumbsup: I was just noting that we always seem to be short of workers. :) As for the other, the lack of single mindedness, that is just a style of play (and I for one subscribe to it) that is far more flexible for certain situations, and this game is probably one. Some teams/players have the ability to for example knock out Oxford a few turns after getting edu without seeming to hindering their other plans, which I find impressive and struggle with because there never seems to be enough (game) time. I was merely making an observation based on past sgotms and not this one (apart from the workers and StP), and have actually spent more time than intended writing about it. :crazyeye: I don't mean to offend anyone.

Maybe a Galleon with loaded Medic 3 would work.

A great idea. With the marauding pirates healing in 1-2 turns and freeing the promotions for combat lines, the stacks should hold a while longer.

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 10:40 AM

I will try to squeeze out a few workers where I can. I agree that we need more.

So is trading RP for Corp a no-go? I don't like to give away techs but getting corp may be worth it.

Are we willing to send out settlers without escorts and have the escorts follow in a different boat? Our Privs should be able to hold off barb galleys too. At least for a little while.

Finishing SP in this TS will likely require a longer TS. Anyone wanna approve that? I don't see how I can keep 100% research up even with Moscow building wealth.
I can build wealth in Moscow but I think we need the 3rd settler first.

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 10:55 AM

Also, what about the GG setting in SP? I would like to settle him in Yek. It is our HE city and with the Barracks and the settled GG, all military will be produced in half time and have 2 promotions to start.

BLubmuz

Oct 06, 2009, 12:22 PM

I was trying to post something this morning when IE crashed 6 times in a row, then tried some test and finally brought back to the service. I threaten them that if the machine has not something broken, they will soon have.

Nice to hear something from Sweeta. His criticisms are correct, but it's a unconvenional game. The fact we never use slavery can be our limit, but i can't see another way to run so many specialists as we do.

UT, RP is too much for Corps. The reason why Mao is no interested in Astro can be he's close to complete it. Maybe you can wait some turn and see if some other AI will put Corps on the table. I think you can do the trade i some turns. A good trade can be PP for Corps, but i doubt you'll have this opportunity.

We can use the GG for a supemedic unit (a mace maybe?) or settle him in the HE city. No other logic options.

Don't dare to build wealth anywhere. Settlers, workers, structures. military we need everything.

For a naval medic, our M2 frigate can be enough. Privateers will still be attacked and the frigate ignored, but it will keep healing.

But having a GG M3 loaded on a galleon (escorted by a frigate, you never know) is also a great idea

I keep editing this one. No problem attack caravels with privateers, provided we have enough of them to protect the injured but winning one.
2 privateers can beat a frigate: first suicides, second win. no match for a caravel i've even seen some C2 privateer beat a frigate while defending. galleons are no match, too.
And the AIs keep building caravels and lose them, wastin turns of production and giving us GG points and XP. Privateers can be upgraded to destroyers once we have the techs.

I hate laptops.

BLubmuz

Oct 06, 2009, 01:21 PM

Yaro can run a merchant with the Eng. We'll avoid a too fast and useless growth and gather some money and some beakers.
StPete can maybe build a Christ. monastery before complet SM. we can need it.
Rostov needs a grocer after Uni.
Yek needs hammer tiles, do something.

How many Unis do we have? 3 after the one in Rostov? we must build 2 more for the OU in Rostov.
and 4 more banks. sh*t too many things to do.

Let's set up soon that barb worker stealin crowd.

Thanks for posting all that screenies STW, otherwise i can't bother you guys with my observations :(

greatbeyond

Oct 06, 2009, 02:26 PM

You're not bothering anybody Blubmuz. When it gets to the level of frustration you are experiencing, it usually is much easier to reformat and reload everything. (That is if you can keep from using a hammer on it!) What a pain!
Driver conflicts are a real issue that seems to be getting better. You could try using selective startup to try and pin down which is the offending driver, but it can take a lot of time and restarts. I have Soundblasters and built-in Realtek that seem to work OK.

Windows 7 has worked very well so far (see if you can get the Beta still). If your PC could handle it, use a Virtual Machine (Microsoft's is free) and load it and see if you have the same problem. I was very surprised by the lack of problems with W7. It is not what you expect from MS.

I looked in the original game thread looking for where the subject of 'nukes hitting a city was discussed', without luck. Though it does say in the maintenance thread, "Direct hit".
It seems odd because a nuke has the same effect anywhere in the 9 tile area around the center point. Oh, well. It makes it a little harder for the ground war, but has no effect on amphibious attacks.

STW and Sweetacshson are both right about all the things we are a little behind in. Unfortunately I don't see a whole lot we can do different. Everything is a trade-off at this point. I think once we get the second Galleon to use as a basis for our Worker stealer raiders, the lack of Workers will be alleviated.

BLubmuz

Oct 06, 2009, 02:52 PM

GB, I'm convinced mine is a HW problem. Is possible i have some SW conflict, so i'll use a very conservative set-up when i can have my PC back. Last blue screen happened after i reinstalled windows and i was just finished with the MB drivers (chipset, realtek and so on) Thus the problem is surely HW. Nothing installed, almost no drivers. What else?

Good to know Win7 works well. I skipped Vista, but i probably will give it a try next month. I failed to download the beta, and it's no more avaiable. The official italian version should be out in 2-3 weeks, i'll wait some day to see some comment, then...

Back to topic: yes, direct hit on a city. I find it stupid, we have already lots of restrictions this time. But i think it's to let the Staff to verify. Not sure.

And yes, many critics are logical, but we did our best.

Sure, now we must expand fast to those 12-13 cities.

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 03:00 PM

So the plan for the second galleon is to load the knight on it and use it to worker steal exclusively.

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 03:11 PM

Okay so changes to the original PPP are:

Try and build more workers.
Try and finish SP (don't think possible)
Get a Christian Monastary in StP before SM is finished
Don't trade for Corp unless I can get it at bargain basement prices (so no trade)
Run a merchant in Yaro
Grocer in Rostov
More Uni's and Banks.

Not sure how much of this I cna get done in 13 turns but I'll give it that College try.

If everyone is fine with it, I'll start in about 3 hours. Post a stop message if this isn't good for someone within the next 3 hours

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 03:20 PM

Is it worth stalling SM to get the Christ. Monastery?

greatbeyond

Oct 06, 2009, 03:29 PM

greatbeyond

Oct 06, 2009, 03:34 PM

Investing in any Monastery at this point may be a waste of Hammers. After Monastery's are eliminated by SM, do you still get the +10% research bonus for ones you have? If it is not completed before you finish SM, we lose them. I'm not sure you even get the money for the hammers.

BLubmuz

Oct 06, 2009, 03:47 PM

BSDs can be diagnosed somewhat if you Google the error code you get. I have found some sites that give a very good description of what they mean. MS, on the other hand, hides the info away and you have to dig for it.

Did it crash before installing windows, during, or after the initial install was done? If before ( some MB drivers are installed before windows ) then it is most likely a MB going bad and not much you can do about that.

Hopefully you've got someone good to diagnose it. Unfortunately a lot of repair shops are just interested in selling parts/new machines and don't have a clue on how to diagnose problems. It's too bad you're so far away, I usually keep my previous generation parts just in case. Nothing for a Core2 duo though. :(
I got a Quad duo and it's under warranty. I suspect too it's the MB or the Ram.
The trouble is random, i mean it can happen 20 times in a row or never show up in 2 days of intensive use. My components are high level, so they must be at the same level and at 0 cost.

Investing in any Monastery at this point may be a waste of Hammers. After Monastery's are eliminated by SM, do you still get the +10% research bonus for ones you have? If it is not completed before you finish SM, we lose them. I'm not sure you even get the money for the hammers.The monastery is to build missionaries if needed for happiness. Also, even if obsolete, it will cwilontinue to produce much needed culture. That's why (but mainly for missionaries in this case) i'd like to have (forgot if we already have it) a jewish one in Moscow.

UT, if by the end of your TS Corps will still be on the table and the only way will be RP, do it. But try to hold. We need it later, so it's not a big deal (aside the trade routes)

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 03:53 PM

It will be on the table for RP or Chem? Which would you prefer?

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 04:33 PM

I'll build the 2 monasteries. In Moscow, it's 1 turn and in SP it's 5 so there shouldn't be much (if any) delay in SM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 04:47 PM

How many Unis do we have? 3 after the one in Rostov? we must build 2 more for the OU in Rostov.

The University in Rostov would make a total of three.

I suggest building the 4th in Yaroslavl' and the 5th in Sugar Island 2 City.

Also, it may be better to build Oxford University in Sugar Island 2 City which will have 2-3 more Scientists than Rostov, once National Park is completed.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 05:10 PM

I looked in the original game thread looking for where the subject of 'nukes hitting a city was discussed', without luck. Though it does say in the maintenance thread, "Direct hit".
It seems odd because a nuke has the same effect anywhere in the 9 tile area around the center point. Oh, well. It makes it a little harder for the ground war, but has no effect on amphibious attacks.

Perhaps, "direct hit" is simply one way of saying that not only must an ICBM or Tactical Nuke be launched against a City, it must hit the City. There is no concept of accuracy in the Game with regard to Nuclear Weapons; the Tile aimed for is the Tile hit or it misses due to SDI.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 05:14 PM

It will be on the table for RP or Chem? Which would you prefer?

Printing Press or we just Research Corporation ourselves; its not even half the size of Steam Power. In other words, we wait for a really good deal on Corporation or we Research it ourselves.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 05:30 PM

Okay so changes to the original PPP are:

Try and build more workers.
Try and finish SP (don't think possible)

Moscow: Build Grocer; Build Wealth rest of the TS.

Whenever we lack enough Wealth to run 100% Research, in addition to Moscow, build Wealth in the City with the lowest priority build; do it in a third City, if necessary.

Trade Resources for XX Wpt where XX is at least 4 and hopefully around 10 or more.

Get a Christian Monastary in StP before SM is finished
Don't trade for Corp unless I can get it at bargain basement prices (so no trade)
Run a merchant in Yaro
Grocer in Rostov
More Uni's and Banks.

University in Yaroslavl'.

Not sure how much of this I cna get done in 13 turns but I'll give it that College try.

It almost goes without saying, protect City Sites #2-8 from AI and Barbarian settlement. Also, protect the City Sites beyond #8, assuming that our Privateers aren't spread too thin.

If everyone is fine with it, I'll start in about 3 hours. Post a stop message if this isn't good for someone within the next 3 hours

You'll do a great job!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 05:44 PM

Is it worth stalling SM to get the Christ. Monastery?

Yes, we're Researching exclusively Steam Power until its completed. Next, Steel, Railroad, maybe even Assembly Line? While doing so, we just save Great People (there bulb increases with Civ. Pop. anyway), although I see no problem doing a GS bulb of Scientific Method, as long as it doesn't complete SM.

We don't need Scientific Method until our "stack of Workers" on Sugar Island 2 has nothing left to do except Forest (Jungle) Preserves which require Scientific Method to perform.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 05:49 PM

I'll build the 2 monasteries. In Moscow, it's 1 turn and in SP it's 5 so there shouldn't be much (if any) delay in SM

In Moscow, are you building a Islamic Monastery or Jewish Monastery or both? It may be good to build a Jewish Monastery so we can build Jewish Missionaries. We won't be able to build one after Scientific Method is completed. It may even make sense to build a Christian Missionary in St. Petersburg and settle him in Moscow to build A Christian Monastery, a total of three Monasteries in Moscow, so we can build Missionaries of any of our three Religions to spread them and build Temples and Cathedrals as needed for Happiness.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 05:54 PM

Blubz appears to be adamantly against running wealth in the cities currently.

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 06:05 PM

Gonna play in a few minutes. Any more last requests?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 06:13 PM

Blubz appears to be adamantly against running wealth in the cities currently.

Where did he post that? I must have missed it.

I'm adamantly against stupidity. Building Wealth in a City means that City can't build something, but it can also allow running 100% Research; what's wrong with completing Steam Power in a TS? We desperately need the +50% Worker boost!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 06:15 PM

Gonna play in a few minutes. Any more last requests?

Build Wealth in Moscow as much as possible to complete Steam Power in this TS or nearly so.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 06:20 PM

So the plan for the second galleon is to load the knight on it and use it to worker steal exclusively.

Would be nice to have Military Tradition right now.

Load 1-2 Rifles as well, assuming we have them.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 06:44 PM

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 06:54 PM

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 08:26 PM

1. Switch to Steam Power (130)
2. Killed 2 Caravel, 2 Galley (130)
3. Finished Settler (131)
4. Killed 2 Caravel, 1 Galley (131)
5. Killed 2 Caravel, Lost 1 Priv (132)
6. Finished Barracks (132)
7. Settled Vlad (Site 2) (133)
8. Killed Galley (134)
9. Killed another Caravel (135)
10. Killed 2 more caravels (136)
11. Killed 1 caravel (137)
11. GS Born in Rostov. Total Count 2 GS in Rostov, 1 GE in Moscow (138)
12. Finished Groc in Moscow (138)
13. Killed 2 more Caravel (139)
14. Settled Smol (Site 3) (149)
15. Captured 3 Barb Workers(139)
16. Lost Priv (140)
17. Killed Galley (140)
18. Loaded 3 workers on Galleon. Sent to Vlad. (140)
19. Captured 2 Barb Worker (140)
20. Killed Galley (140)
21. Killed 2 more caravels (142)
22. Traded WM with DeG. Figured there was no sense to turn him down. (142)
23. Killed 1 Galley (143)
24. Loaded up 2 more Barb workers and sent to Smol (143)

Summary/Comments:

1 Turn away from HE
Killed 14 Caravel
Killed 7 Galley
Settled 2 cities
Another settler in galleon, another 2 turns away.
Stole 5 workers, built 2. More than doubling workers from 6 to 13
Left 2 knights on barb continent, Keep close to the coast until the galleon comes back so that they don't get killed and can get more workers.
GP: 2 GS in Rostov, 1 GE in Moscow, 1 GG in SP.

Research: 6-10 turns out from SP. With new cities, sustainable rate is still around 30%. Building wealth in Moscow will get us 60 of the 170 per turn we are short to run at 100%.

We also need to get a few more units out. We are thin in our cities.

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 08:28 PM

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1794 AD to 1820 AD:

Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (6.60) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 407, 1794 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.60) vs Churchill's Galley (2.40)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 407, 1794 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Galley!
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) (6.60) vs Roosevelt's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 407, 1794 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 407, 1794 AD: You have constructed a Jewish Monastery in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Rifleman.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: You have trained a Settler in Yekaterinburg. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Timur (Great General) has been born in London (Churchill)!
Turn 407, 1794 AD: Mao Zedong has made peace with Churchill!

Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (5.74) vs Churchill's Galley (2.20)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (75/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 12 (63/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Churchill's Galley!
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.60) vs Churchill's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Caravel!
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) (6.60) vs Roosevelt's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 408, 1796 AD: You have trained a Maceman in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Christian Monastery.
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Churchill adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel (3.00) vs Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) (4.17)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Combat Odds: 20.4%
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (16/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (2/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel (3.00) vs Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) (0.14)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow) is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 408, 1796 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel has defeated Stalin's Privateer 27 (Moscow)!

Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (7.20) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 409, 1798 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (5.83) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Combat Odds: 93.8%
Turn 409, 1798 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (67/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (53/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (39/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (25/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi adopts Universal Suffrage!
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi adopts Emancipation!
Turn 409, 1798 AD: Gandhi adopts Free Market!

Turn 410, 1800 AD: Vladivostok has been founded.
Turn 410, 1800 AD: You have trained a Rifleman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Knight.

Turn 411, 1802 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (6.19) vs Gandhi's Galley (2.20)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 411, 1802 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 11 (75/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 11 (64/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 11 (53/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated Gandhi's Galley!
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) (3.60) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Combat Odds: 90.1%
Turn 411, 1802 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 411, 1802 AD: You have trained a Knight in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Grocer.
Turn 411, 1802 AD: You have constructed a University in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Grocer.
Turn 411, 1802 AD: The borders of Vladivostok have expanded!
Turn 411, 1802 AD: Roosevelt adopts Theocracy!

Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.26) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Combat Odds: 98.4%
Turn 412, 1804 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 412, 1804 AD: You have constructed a Christian Monastery in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Worker.
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Yekaterinburg celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel (3.00) vs Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) (5.16)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Combat Odds: 3.5%
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel (3.60) vs Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) (4.32)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Combat Odds: 39.0%
Turn 412, 1804 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 16 (56/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 16 (40/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 16 (24/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 16 (8/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 412, 1804 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!

Turn 413, 1806 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (5.32) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 413, 1806 AD: Combat Odds: 93.9%
Turn 413, 1806 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 413, 1806 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 413, 1806 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 413, 1806 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 413, 1806 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 413, 1806 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 413, 1806 AD: Yekaterinburg celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 414, 1808 AD: Ernest Rutherford (Great Scientist) has been born in Rostov (Stalin)!

Turn 415, 1810 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (7.80) vs Churchill's Caravel (3.90)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 415, 1810 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Caravel!
Turn 415, 1810 AD: You have constructed a Grocer in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Worker.
Turn 415, 1810 AD: Mani (Great Prophet) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!

Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (6.12) vs Churchill's Caravel (3.90)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Combat Odds: 91.2%
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Churchill's Caravel!
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.70) vs Churchill's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Combat Odds: 98.1%
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 13 (73/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Caravel!
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Smolensk has been founded.
Turn 416, 1812 AD: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 416, 1812 AD: You have trained a Worker in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Confucianism has spread in Vladivostok.
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel (3.30) vs Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) (3.88)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Combat Odds: 41.3%
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 15 (39/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 15 (24/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 15 (9/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel has defeated Stalin's Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg)!
Turn 416, 1812 AD: Gandhi has completed The Church of the Nativity!

Turn 417, 1814 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) (3.60) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.20)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: Combat Odds: 95.9%
Turn 417, 1814 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 417, 1814 AD: Stalin's Caravel 14 (Moscow) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 417, 1814 AD: You have trained a Settler in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 418, 1816 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 9.
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill has 180 gold available for trade.
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Roosevelt has 150 gold available for trade.
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (5.69) vs Churchill's Galley (2.60)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Combat Odds: 98.6%
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (61/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Galley is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Galley!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Your Privateer 31 (Rostov) has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel (3.60) vs Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (5.46)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Combat Odds: 17.1%
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (56/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (42/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (28/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Churchill's Caravel!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: While defending, your Privateer 30 (Moscow) has killed a English Caravel!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel (3.60) vs Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (5.12)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Combat Odds: 19.4%
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 14 (47/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Churchill's Caravel is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Churchill's Caravel!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: While defending, your Privateer 31 (Rostov) has killed a English Caravel!
Turn 418, 1816 AD: Roosevelt has founded Chicago in a distant land.

Turn 419, 1818 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 10.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: Roosevelt has 200 gold available for trade.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: Gandhi has 110 gold available for trade.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: The borders of Smolensk are about to expand.
Turn 419, 1818 AD: The borders of Smolensk have expanded!
Turn 419, 1818 AD: De Gaulle has declared war on Churchill!
Turn 419, 1818 AD: Mao Zedong has founded Hangzhou in a distant land.

Turn 420, 1820 AD: You have plundered 2? from the Plantation!
Turn 420, 1820 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (7.20) vs De Gaulle's Galley (2.20)
Turn 420, 1820 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 420, 1820 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 420, 1820 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 420, 1820 AD: De Gaulle's Galley is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 420, 1820 AD: De Gaulle's Galley is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 420, 1820 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 420, 1820 AD: De Gaulle's Galley is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 420, 1820 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated De Gaulle's Galley!
Turn 420, 1820 AD: Your Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has destroyed a Galley!

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 08:29 PM

Auto Log:

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 130/473 (1794 AD) [07-Oct-2009 04:57:53]
Research begun: Steam Power (16 Turns)
While attacking, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking just off shore near Coventry, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (4.32/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates English Galley (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in English territory at Hastings, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.00/6) defeats English Galley (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking, Privateer 27 (Moscow) decimates American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking in American territory near Nubian, Privateer 27 (Moscow) (6.00/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
Moscow begins: Jewish Monastery (2 turns)
Moscow begins: Knight (2 turns)
Moscow begins: Grocer (4 turns)
Moscow begins: Worker (2 turns)
Moscow begins: Settler (6 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Christian Monastery (5 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Christian Monastery (5 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Worker (4 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Courthouse (9 turns)
Novgorod begins: Library (11 turns)
Rostov begins: Grocer (9 turns)
Rostov begins: Observatory (9 turns)
0% Research: 90 per turn
0% Culture: 42 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 89 per turn, 99 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Jewish Monastery
St. Petersburg grows to size 9
Yekaterinburg finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:
Mao Zedong (China) and Churchill (England) have signed a peace treaty
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Churchill (England), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 131/473 (1796 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:11:28]
Privateer 33 (Novgorod) promoted: Combat II
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates English Galley (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While attacking in English territory near London, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (3.78/6) defeats English Galley (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates English Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking in English territory at Hastings, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (6.00/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking, Privateer 27 (Moscow) decimates American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking in American territory at Atlanta, Privateer 27 (Moscow) (3.48/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
A Farm was built near St. Petersburg
100% Research: 292 per turn
0% Culture: 44 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -105 per turn, 204 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Maceman
Yekaterinburg finishes: Barracks

Other Player Actions:
While defending in American territory at Washington, Privateer 27 (Moscow) (0.12/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 79.6%)
While defending in American territory at Washington, Privateer 27 (Moscow) loses to American Caravel (3.00/3) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
Civics Change: Churchill(England) from 'Theocracy' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 132/473 (1798 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:15:21]
Yekaterinburg begins: Heroic Epic (13 turns)
Privateer 31 (Rostov) promoted: Combat II
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
While attacking in English territory near Bombay, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (5.22/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
Privateer 30 (Moscow) promoted: Combat II
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 93.8%)
While attacking in English territory near Bombay, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (1.50/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 93.8%)
100% Research: 292 per turn
0% Culture: 44 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -107 per turn, 107 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Universal Suffrage'
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Caste System' to 'Emancipation'
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Free Market'

Turn 133/473 (1800 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:21:22]
Vladivostok founded
Vladivostok begins: Courthouse (162 turns)
A Plantation was built near Yakutsk
0% Research: 98 per turn
0% Culture: 52 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 77 per turn, 3 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Rifleman

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 134/473 (1802 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:26:06]
While attacking, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) decimates Indian Galley (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
While attacking in Indian territory near Coventry, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (3.18/6) defeats Indian Galley (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
While attacking, Caravel 14 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 90.1%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near The Holy City, Caravel 14 (Moscow) (3.00/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 90.1%)
0% Research: 98 per turn
0% Culture: 52 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 75 per turn, 80 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Knight
Rostov finishes: University
Yakutsk grows to size 3
Vladivostok's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Roosevelt(America) from 'Pacifism' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 135/473 (1804 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:28:35]
DEFAULT (Knight) promoted: Combat I
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.4%)
While attacking on the high seas near Bombay, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (4.44/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.4%)
100% Research: 324 per turn
0% Culture: 47 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -129 per turn, 155 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Christian Monastery
Yaroslavl' finishes: Galleon
Yekaterinburg grows to size 8

Other Player Actions:
While defending on the high seas near Nubian, Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) (4.32/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 96.5%)
While defending on the high seas near Nubian, Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) (0.48/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 61.0%)

Turn 136/473 (1806 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:31:30]
Yaroslavl' begins: Privateer (9 turns)
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 93.9%)
While attacking on the high seas near Bombay, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (4.44/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 93.9%)
Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) promoted: Combat I
0% Research: 106 per turn
0% Culture: 49 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 80 per turn, 26 in the bank

Turn 137/473 (1808 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:36:05]
Privateer 31 (Rostov) promoted: Combat III
A Workshop was built near Yekaterinburg
0% Research: 106 per turn
0% Culture: 49 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 71 per turn, 106 in the bank

After End Turn:
Ernest Rutherford (Great Scientist) born in Rostov
Yaroslavl' grows to size 9

Turn 138/473 (1810 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:37:09]
A Farm was built near St. Petersburg
A Workshop was built near Yekaterinburg
A Farm was built near St. Petersburg
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates English Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking in English territory at Hastings, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (5.16/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
100% Research: 331 per turn
0% Culture: 49 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -136 per turn, 177 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Grocer

Turn 139/473 (1812 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:40:58]
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates English Caravel (Prob Victory: 91.2%)
While attacking in English territory near Hastings, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (4.20/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 91.2%)
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates English Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.1%)
While attacking in English territory at Hastings, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (4.38/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.1%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near Navajo, DEFAULT (10.00/10) defeats Barbarian Worker (Prob Victory: 98.1%)
Smolensk founded
Smolensk begins: Courthouse (162 turns)
100% Research: 346 per turn
0% Culture: 53 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -166 per turn, 41 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Worker
St. Petersburg finishes: Worker
Yakutsk grows to size 4
Confucianism has spread: Vladivostok

Other Player Actions:
While defending just off shore, Privateer 32 (Yekaterinburg) loses to American Caravel (0.75/3) (Prob Victory: 58.7%)

Turn 140/473 (1814 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:45:35]
While attacking, Caravel 14 (Moscow) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 95.9%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near The Holy City, Caravel 14 (Moscow) (2.55/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 95.9%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at The Holy City, DEFAULT (10.00/10) defeats Barbarian Worker (Prob Victory: 95.9%)
0% Research: 101 per turn
0% Culture: 53 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 68 per turn, 14 in the bank

After End Turn:
Novgorod finishes: Settler
Yekaterinburg grows to size 9

Turn 141/473 (1816 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:52:52]
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates English Galley (Prob Victory: 98.6%)
While attacking in English territory near Marseilles, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (3.66/6) defeats English Galley (Prob Victory: 98.6%)
A Workshop was built near Yekaterinburg
Caravel 14 (Moscow) promoted: Combat III
0% Research: 101 per turn
0% Culture: 53 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 66 per turn, 82 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg grows to size 10

Other Player Actions:
While defending in English territory near Marseilles, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (1.68/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 82.9%)
While defending in English territory near Marseilles, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (2.82/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 80.6%)

Turn 142/473 (1818 AD) [07-Oct-2009 05:57:01]
Diplomacy: De Gaulle (France) offers to trade World Map to Stalin (Russia) for World Map
Diplomacy: Stalin (Russia) accepts trade of World Map to De Gaulle (France) for World Map
Privateer 30 (Moscow) promoted: Medic I
A Workshop was built near Yekaterinburg
0% Research: 112 per turn
0% Culture: 53 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 66 per turn, 148 in the bank

After End Turn:
Smolensk's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
De Gaulle (France) declares war on Churchill (England)
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Churchill (England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 143/473 (1820 AD) [07-Oct-2009 06:01:04]
While attacking, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) decimates French Galley (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in French territory near Avignon, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (5.34/6) defeats French Galley (Prob Victory: 100.0%)

unclethrill

Oct 06, 2009, 08:30 PM

Here is the Save.

culdeus

Oct 06, 2009, 09:24 PM

wow, I blink and this thing blows up another 3 pages. Couldn't manage it. Wife had the civ computer occupied last few nights managing her stuff. I'm busy tomorrow night but will have thurs. night free and open.

Sweetacshon

Oct 06, 2009, 09:26 PM

Wow. Nice buccaneering! Nice slaving! It sounds like a few new privateers are in order.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 09:36 PM

Don't dare to build wealth anywhere. Settlers, workers, structures. military we need everything.

Yes, we need Hammers to build many things.

However, this "Don't dare to build wealth anywhere." is a foolish statement. We have to weight every option on both the Pro and Con sides.

For example, maybe building Wealth to get very quickly to Railroad to within 30-40 turns would allow us to build everything need "10" times faster than we can now. Again, we already have 8 Mining, Inc. resources and about 8 more are available on various City Sites for a total of 16 * 1.5 = 24 Base Hammers in every City with Mining, Inc. with a Forge becomes 30 Hpt more than the City had. That means building a Courthouse in a new City in a minimum of 6t!

Why do you dismiss ideas like this without even bothering to ask what if? What if we actually do this "crazy" appearing thing "Building Wealth". Where does it lead us? Are you only looking at what we sacrifice and not at everything we can gain from building Wealth? That's the way it seems.

Building Wealth in the Capital is especially effective while running Bureaucracy. We get the obvious +50% Commerce bonus and we get +50% Hammer bonus and the +25% Forge bonus on 41 Base Hammers -> 71 Hpt --> 71 Wpt. This almost enough Wealth to allow 100% Research virtually forever. With Research at 100%, the Wealth slider is at 00% forever as well, so one might as well not build very many Wealth multipliers, because they don't multiple Built Wealth and more importantly +25% or +50% of 0 is still 0, so one doesn't have to build Wealth multipliers, at least not until the economy switches from 100% Research to 100% Wealth in preparation for War; by that time, all the desirable Wealth multiplying buildings can be in place with great ease of production.

After Railroad, Assembly Line could be Researched in 20t more turns or less via Building Wealth in the Capital using Bureaucracy.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sweetacshon

Oct 06, 2009, 09:55 PM

STW, yep I agree, that is a good strategy used by many high level players. It shouldn't be dismissed just because it is not one's usual style of play. Also to keep in mind is the enhanced benefit of both Oxford and an academy from one of the GSs if we're able to run 100%. I suppose it is a trade off (yet again) because if settling islands, and hence disrupting AI shipping is the highest priority, then it would seem that Moscow can't build wealth. If the other cities can keep up with enough of the REX burden, then wealth in Moscow is viable.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 10:33 PM

Great TS, unclethrill!

1. Switch to Steam Power (130)
2. Killed 2 Caravel, 2 Galley (130)
3. Finished Settler (131)
4. Killed 2 Caravel, 1 Galley (131)
5. Killed 2 Caravel, Lost 1 Priv (132)
6. Finished Barracks (132)
7. Settled Vlad (Site 2) (133)

Great, now we can build our National Park City!

8. Killed Galley (134)
9. Killed another Caravel (135)
10. Killed 2 more caravels (136)
11. Killed 1 caravel (137)
11. GS Born in Rostov. Total Count 2 GS in Rostov, 1 GE in Moscow (138)
12. Finished Groc in Moscow (138)
13. Killed 2 more Caravel (139)
14. Settled Smol (Site 3) (149)

I'm wondering whether we should simply deliver a Settler to a Site and put him on Sentry; settling only when an AI Barbarian Settler threatens to settle the same site. The maintenance is really starting to hurt. Effectively now only 30% Research turns versus 70% Wealth; do you know what a dramatic difference it would make if Building Wealth could make it 100% Research turns? We may be beyond that now with the distance maintenance and difficulty building Courthouses in the new Cities.

15. Captured 3 Barb Workers(139)

The Slave Galleon is already a huge success!

16. Lost Priv (140)
17. Killed Galley (140)
18. Loaded 3 workers on Galleon. Sent to Vlad. (140)
19. Captured 2 Barb Worker (140)

Hurrah! Tally-Ho! Hurrah!

20. Killed Galley (140)
21. Killed 2 more caravels (142)
22. Traded WM with DeG. Figured there was no sense to turn him down. (142)
23. Killed 1 Galley (143)
24. Loaded up 2 more Barb workers and sent to Smol (143)

"Singing in the Rain. ... a wonderful feeling. So Happy and Gay!" from the old movie musical based in Manhattan around 1940; The word "gay" had a completely different meaning then than it does now. Having captured 7 Workers in a single TS deserves a Song and Dance at least!

Summary/Comments:

1 Turn away from HE
Killed 14 Caravel
Killed 7 Galley

Excellent Hunting! We should build 2+ Privateers next TS.

Settled 2 cities
Another settler in galleon, another 2 turns away.
Stole 5 workers, built 2. More than doubling workers from 6 to 13
Left 2 knights on barb continent, Keep close to the coast until the galleon comes back so that they don't get killed and can get more workers.
GP: 2 GS in Rostov, 1 GE in Moscow, 1 GG in SP.

Research: 6-10 turns out from SP. With new cities, sustainable rate is still around 30%. Building wealth in Moscow will get us 60 of the 170 per turn we are short to run at 100%.

Please work that last 5H Workshop in Moscow; that will result in 71 Hpt or 71 Wpt (Building Wealth) rather than 63 HPt!

At the beginning of TS, our deficit was around -101 Wpt, so Building Wealth in Moscow would have added 71 Wpt leaving a deficit of just -30 Wpt resulting in a much higher Research turns to Wealth turns ratio. Eliminating the deficit would require a 2nd City Build Wealth, still a reasonable option, provided the Gain is sufficient.

At the end of the TS, our deficit is -171 Wpt, so the maintenance of adding just two Cities added -70 Wpt in deficit. Let's consider just puting the Settlers in Sentry, unless the City will provide something critical or the site is threatened by AI or Barbarian settlement.

We also need to get a few more units out. We are thin in our cities.

Upgrade the Maceman in Smolensk to a Rifleman, so it can easily withstand Barbarian attack from the South, Northeast and Northwest.

Very well done, unclethrill!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 06, 2009, 10:48 PM

Here's another bit of food for thought.

We have a GS sitting in Rostov right now. It is turn 130. At 90% research (where the slider is now), if we build an academy, it is +33R / turn. If we bulb, it is ~2400 beakers. We figure to research for at least 200 more turns so that academy, even if Rostov doesn't go up in raw research, would net us ~6600R. A net gain of ~4200 beakers. That equates to 1 GS converting over the long haul in to 3 GS worth of bulbs and we can decide which techs those beakers go toward.

I agree with unclethrill that perhaps building an Academy even now would make good use of a Great Scientist.

STW, yep I agree, that is a good strategy used by many high level players. It shouldn't be dismissed just because it is not one's usual style of play. Also to keep in mind is the enhanced benefit of both Oxford and an academy from one of the GSs if we're able to run 100%. I suppose it is a trade off (yet again) because if settling islands, and hence disrupting AI shipping is the highest priority, then it would seem that Moscow can't build wealth. If the other cities can keep up with enough of the REX burden, then wealth in Moscow is viable.

I wonder now whether we shouldn't consider building an Academy in Rostov, maybe Moscow and maybe even in Vladivostok!

BTW, please send an Islamic Missionary to Vladivostok sometime before National Park is built. We may want to build a Confucian Monastery here before SM makes that impossible.

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Oct 07, 2009, 06:22 AM

A very nice turnset. Those stolen Workers will come in handy. I don't think we are going to need to build any ourselves.

Money - I am not against building wealth in Moscow. It may be a necessary evil to keep research up.

City cost - Will it be worth it to switch to State Property once we learn it? This will cut down on distance costs.

unclethrill

Oct 07, 2009, 01:06 PM

At the beginning of TS, our deficit was around -101 Wpt, so Building Wealth in Moscow would have added 71 Wpt leaving a deficit of just -30 Wpt resulting in a much higher Research turns to Wealth turns ratio. Eliminating the deficit would require a 2nd City Build Wealth, still a reasonable option, provided the Gain is sufficient.

At the end of the TS, our deficit is -171 Wpt, so the maintenance of adding just two Cities added -70 Wpt in deficit. Let's consider just puting the Settlers in Sentry, unless the City will provide something critical or the site is threatened by AI or Barbarian settlement.

Here is the break down from the financial advisor:

Commerce:
Before After Difference
Worked tiles 87 104 +17
Domestic Trade 35 47 +12
Buildings 26 26 +0

Research 284 351 +67
Culture 42 49 +7
Espionage 8 8 +0

Income:

Specialists 0 3 +3
Net Foreign 18 18 +0

Expenses

Unit Cost 16 23 -7
Unit Supply 2 4 -2
City Maintenance 38 71 -33
Civic Upkeep 37 47 -10
Inflation 26 47 -21

Maintenance costs of the two new cities:

Vlad 11.85
Smol 12.40

Total 24.25

So the biggest percent of the increased cost is the additional research at 100%. Next to that is city maintenance. Of the increase of 33, 24 of that is the new cities. A courthouse in each can cut that in half (12). After this, the third biggest increase was inflation. Is there a way to reduce inflation?

At 60% research, we are getting the same research in beakers as before the TS started but the overall negative amount drops from -101 to -77.

So yes we are in what appears to be a bigger hole then when we started but if you look at the numbers, we are actually better off financially and we also have 7 new workers (5 of which required no hammers).

I think we need to spend one TS trying to get CH, Uni, & banks in all the cities that need them. By addressing these needs now we can continue our REX and really get ahead in the longer run.

BLubmuz

Oct 07, 2009, 01:14 PM

Good news: the service found errors in RAM, so now they only need to determine which one of the 3 is gone. Tomorrow i'll have my PC back and probably i can set it up by the end of the week, just in time to play after Culdeus.

Pity i failed on my attempt to steal workers, but UT compensated largerly :goodjob:
5 stolen workers are just great! Since we continue to pillage improvements barbs will build more, so we can probably stop to build ourselves.

I'm not totally against wealth in any city,
- provided this city is fully improved with Lib/Uni/Obs, Market/grocer/bank and barracks, harbor.
- and provided we don't need any military unit (ground or sea) or settlers. Building wealth in Moscow when we're still in our expansion phase is foolish. :mad:

Once the last of the settlers for the 7 or 8 identified spots will be built and the city is fully structured, we can start building wealth

I find a good idea to build settlers for some crappy or less important spot, set them in place (with escort) and settle only if the AI (not barbs, their cities pop, they don't build settlers) will unload a settler.
Surely we need to carefully weight ths option, since building settlers is expensive and keep them escorted outside borders is expensive too.

What about research? Are you oriented to finish the techs for Mining Inc before the path to Fission? Careful weight is needed here too, but think i can like this option.

The goal is build nukes, and Mining is needed like techs.

Academy? hmm not sure about this.
We ned to bulb the medicine and the fission path. Try to keep this in mind. I can be in favor of 1, maybe 2 if you can put together enough numbers for it/them.
I mean. if we compensate the turns lost on those paths with turns gained on the rocketry/industrialism path, build as much academies you want... Otherwise, bulb.
OU in Sugar2? goin' crazy? all structures to build there. Better a Uni in Novo and OU sooner in Rostov. Try to figure a build plan in turns, not in TSs to verify.

unclethrill

Oct 07, 2009, 01:16 PM

So looks like Culd is up.

BLubmuz

Oct 07, 2009, 01:26 PM

Here is the break down from the financial advisor:

Nice analysis, do you kept note from the beginning of your TS and compared that with the end?

So the biggest percent of the increased cost is the additional research at 100%. Next to that is city maintenance. Of the increase of 33, 24 of that is the new cities. A courthouse in each can cut that in half (12). After this, the third biggest increase was inflation. Is there a way to reduce inflation?

No. There's a random event which can often happen when you run FM. But they are disabled, so no way.

At 60% research, we are getting the same research in beakers as before the TS started but the overall negative amount drops from -101 to -77.

So yes we are in what appears to be a bigger hole then when we started but if you look at the numbers, we are actually better off financially and we also have 7 new workers (5 of which required no hammers).

I think we need to spend one TS trying to get CH, Uni, & banks in all the cities that need them. By addressing these needs now we can continue our REX and really get ahead in the longer run.First of all, we must complete the planned expansion

If i'm not wrong, 3 cities out of 8 (or 7, if we don't count site #8) are already settled.
How many settlers are built and moving?
How many settlers are in queue?
This is the absolute priority

unclethrill

Oct 07, 2009, 01:56 PM

First of all, we must complete the planned expansion

If i'm not wrong, 3 cities out of 8 (or 7, if we don't count site #8) are already settled.
How many settlers are built and moving?
How many settlers are in queue?
This is the absolute priority

3 cities down.
1 settler on a boat
1 settler 2 turns away in Moscow.

That's 5 of the 8 so we need 3 more settlers and we can do that in the next TS or two in the worst case.

I know that the settled cities tank the economy some but I don't like the idea of building settlers and just setting them somewhere. Those cities never get the improvements they need or get them too late to help the game.

BLubmuz

Oct 07, 2009, 02:16 PM

3 cities down.
1 settler on a boat
1 settler 2 turns away in Moscow.

That's 5 of the 8 so we need 3 more settlers and we can do that in the next TS or two in the worst case.

I know that the settled cities tank the economy some but I don't like the idea of building settlers and just setting them somewhere. Those cities never get the improvements they need or get them too late to help the game.Thanks for the info. you know, we computerless poor and sad guys must depend from the charity of others.

So we can be soon be at -2 (or -3) to go. BTW, opinions on that 8th spot i marked?
It seemed an interesting spot, but i can live without that city. Also, if any of you has some more spot to suggest, go on. Now or never more!!! :lol:

Well UT, we must weight the maintenance cost for 2 units (and mainly the cost to build an almost useless settler) compared to the cost ot a nuke, the diversion of a conquering force and the possible time extension for a war. It's not so obvious, i think, but surely STW can give a good help on figuring this absolutely unusual strategy.
Can you hear me, STW?

unclethrill

Oct 07, 2009, 03:25 PM

Thanks for the info. you know, we computerless poor and sad guys must depend from the charity of others.

So we can be soon be at -2 (or -3) to go. BTW, opinions on that 8th spot i marked?
It seemed an interesting spot, but i can live without that city. Also, if any of you has some more spot to suggest, go on. Now or never more!!! :lol:

Well UT, we must weight the maintenance cost for 2 units (and mainly the cost to build an almost useless settler) compared to the cost ot a nuke, the diversion of a conquering force and the possible time extension for a war. It's not so obvious, i think, but surely STW can give a good help on figuring this absolutely unusual strategy.
Can you hear me, STW?

Well the obvious place to start in this comparison is that a settler costs 342 to build and a tactical nuke cost 337. Add in that in the HE city the Nuke is half price and that we can't get half-price settlers anywhere and you have compelling argument for building cities with the built settlers to try and get some return on the investment. The Nuke will get us a return on investment pretty quick.

BLubmuz

Oct 07, 2009, 04:25 PM

Well the obvious place to start in this comparison is that a settler costs 342 to build and a tactical nuke cost 337. Add in that in the HE city the Nuke is half price and that we can't get half-price settlers anywhere and you have compelling argument for building cities with the built settlers to try and get some return on the investment. The Nuke will get us a return on investment pretty quick.I Forgot the costs :blush:.
Supposed you're referring to a Tac, not an ICBM, it still doesn't make sense build settlers to let idle for maybe 30 turns or maybe forever.
It was an interesting option, but to discard.

Next math for academies, please.

unclethrill

Oct 07, 2009, 04:37 PM

greatbeyond

Oct 07, 2009, 04:42 PM

You also have to factor in that Nukes will not be available for quite some time. We should leave the crappy city sites for the AI. Build up our cities and they will more than pay for themselves. Cities should be finished settling soon or not at all. A city finished late that can't add anything to our war effort is a waste.

An Academy can be useful in our OU city or one that will be primarily focused on research. However, only one and:
It has to be done now AND it must have it's focus on research only for now. STW provided an analysis several posts ago.

BLubmuz

Oct 07, 2009, 05:19 PM

OK, i'm almost sold for an academy, but just one.
Moscow for bureau and 2 gold
or Rostov, since it's running NOW 5 specialists. And can do more with a grocer which, along with sheeps soon hooked should solve the health problems. But we must avoid it grows further.

unclethrill

Oct 07, 2009, 05:31 PM

I would vote for Rostov.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 07, 2009, 07:52 PM

I Forgot the costs :blush:.
Supposed you're referring to a Tac, not an ICBM, it still doesn't make sense build settlers to let idle for maybe 30 turns or maybe forever.
It was an interesting option, but to discard.

We all know that it can be foolish to spam Settlers as fast as possible and settle them just as fast half way around the Globe without either running State Property or quickly building Courthouses. So, it can make sense, to simply put some Settlers on Sentry until we are sure our Economy can support them and still stay at 100% Research or at least very close to 100% Research, meaning >= 80% or 80% Research turns and <= 20% Wealth turns. Since we are in the Research phase of our Game, we should be doing everything possible to keep it our Research at 100% for the greatest % of turns possible.

My idea of leaving some Settlers idle is to keep Research going at as close to 100% as possible, by not having any non-essential City drag our economy down, while also pursuing a moderate Settler Spam as well as a much higher priority AI Settler killing strategy that currently manifests itself as a fleet of Privateers causing extreme harm to all AIs on the High Seas!

We must keep in mind the ultimate goal of this Game, Conquest! This is not some bizarre Space Colony game where we build a certain number of ICBMs and Tactical Nukes, use them and Win. Think of the usual Ancient Era Conquest: Start as Rome, research Iron Working and The Wheel and Chop Praetorians like a Berserker (mad), and kill AIs as fast as possible while preventing AI expansion and Research as much as possible. We must do exactly the same thing, except we must Research Fission and Rocketry, build Tactical Nukes like crazy and capture every AI City by first launching a successful Nuclear Weapon against it, while NOT allowing the AIs to SPREAD.

Our sub-goals right now should be NOT allowing the AIs to SPREAD, and researching Fission and Rocketry ASAP, so we can start building the Weapon we must use to capture Cities. Conquest by definition is capturing every AI City! What better way to do this quicker now by doing our best to minimize the number of AI Cities we need to Capture!

We should build at least eight Privateers to sink every AI Galley and Caravel we find anywhere near any unsettled Area. The more AI Settlers sunk in the Seas, the fewer AI Cities there will be to capture in the War phase of our Game. A Settler costs 342 Hammers, but a Privateer costs just 108 Hammers; we can build more than three Privateers for the price of one Settler in Hammers. Which is potentially more useful? How many fewer Nuclear Weapons do need to build as a result?

Immediate Sub-Goals:

1) Limit AI Expansion
2) Research Fission and Rocketry ASAP
3) Build an Infrastructure that can Spam Nuclear Weapons, ideally one per Turn per City
4) Develop an Economy able to Efficiently support Sub-Goals 1-3

If that means leaving a few Settlers in Sentry on their designated City Sites for 5, 10, 15 or 20 turns, so be it! After Mining, Inc., we can build these Cities when a Mining, Inc. Executive arrives to spread Mining, Inc. and thus ensures quick building of a Courthouse as well as other buildings and units that may be needed!

All Options should remain on the Table, until they are proven to be inadequate for our purposes! Not because 1-2 or even more Members of the Team simply don't like them. Potentially useful strategies must be either mathematically analyzed as being validate/invalidate or Play Tested to produce (or not produce) the desired outcome. Simple like/dislike of a strategy is not acceptable. Likewise, insufficient analysis or Play Testing is also not acceptable. On the other hand, the Team can and probably should reject a strategy that has not been adequately analyzed or Play Tested.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sweetacshon

Oct 07, 2009, 10:07 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 07, 2009, 11:01 PM

From an earlier post

Here's another bit of food for thought.

We have a GS sitting in Rostov right now. It is turn 130. At 90% research (where the slider is now), if we build an academy, it is +33R / turn. If we bulb, it is ~2400 beakers. We figure to research for at least 200 more turns so that academy, even if Rostov doesn't go up in raw research, would net us ~6600R. A net gain of ~4200 beakers. That equates to 1 GS converting over the long haul in to 3 GS worth of bulbs and we can decide which techs those beakers go toward.

Right now a Great Science bulb is 2592B of Scientific Method.

For Academies, we shall consider three locations, Moscow, Rostov and Vladivostok. For Moscow at least, the primary source of Beakers is Commerce and the Beakers thus derived varies widely between 100% Research and 00% Research. Because nearly all of Rostov's and Vladivostok's Beakers are Scientists, their Beaker output varies very little when going from 100% Research turns to 00% Research turns and visa versa. Currently, the stable ratio of Research turns to Wealth turns is 1 to 3 or 25% Research slider average value. Although pillaging could be used to improve this figure, there is no firm data on expected pillage income and if the pillager(s) is (are) killed, the pillage income drops to 0 Gpt anyway, so pillage income will be ignored in this calculation.
Moscow:

000% Research: 3 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 1.5 Bpt
100% Research: 34 Commerce +50% (Bureaucracy) = 51 Commerce -> 51 Bpt + 3 Bpt = 54 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 27 Bpt
Average turn: (3 x 1.5 + 1 x 27 = 31.5) / 4 = 7.75 Bpt
Break even turn: 143 + 2592 / 7.75 = 143 + 335 = 578
Beakers by t300: 157 * 7.75 = 1216.75
Beakers by t350: 207 * 7.75 = 1604.25

Thus, an Academy in Moscow is a really bad idea! (The Academy will never even recover the bulb Beakers.)

Rostov (7 GS + 1 GE):

000% Research: 7 x 6 + 1 x 3 Bpt = 45 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 22.5 Bpt
100% Research: 21 Commerce -> 21 Bpt + 45 Bpt = 66 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 33 Bpt
Average turn: (3 x 22.5 + 1 x 33 = 100.5) / 4 = 25.125 Bpt
Break even turn: 143 + 2592 / 25.125 = 143 + 104 = 247
Beakers by t300: 157 * 25.125 = 3944.625
Beakers by t350: 207 * 25.125 = 5200.875

Rostov (10 GS in 2t):

000% Research: 10 x 6 Bpt = 60 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 30 Bpt
100% Research: 23 Commerce -> 23 Bpt + 60 Bpt = 83 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 41.5 Bpt
Average turn: (3 x 30 + 1 x 41.5 = 131.5) / 4 = 32.875 Bpt
Break even turn: 143 + 2592 / 32.875 = 143 + 79 = 222
Beakers by t300: 157 * 32.875 = 5161.375
Beakers by t350: 207 * 32.875 = 6805.125

Vladivostok (13 GS in 2t):

Post National Park Production Phase (2 x 3C trade; 2F1H1C; two 1F4H Workshops; 4F2C; 4F1C; two 2F2C; 12 Sci-3B):

000% Research: 12 x 6 Bpt = 72 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 36 Bpt
100% Research: 14 Commerce -> 14 Bpt + 72 Bpt = 86 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 43 Bpt
Average turn: (3 x 36 + 1 x 43 = 151) / 4 = 37.75 Bpt
Break even turn: 180 + 2592 / 37.75 = 180 + 69 = 249
Beakers by t300: 120 * 37.75 = 4530
Beakers by t350: 170 * 37.75 = 6417.5

After All Production Phases (2F1H1C; 4F2C; 4F1C; three 2F2C; 13-15 Sci-3B):

000% Research: 13 x 6 Bpt = 78 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 39 Bpt
100% Research: 16 Commerce -> 16 Bpt + 78 Bpt = 94 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 47 Bpt
Average turn: (3 x 39 + 1 x 47 = 164) / 4 = 41 Bpt
Break even turn: 180 + 2592 / 41 = 180 + 64 = 244
Beakers by t300: 120 * 41 = 4920
Beakers by t350: 170 * 41 = 6970

000% Research: 14 x 6 Bpt = 84 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 42 Bpt
100% Research: 16 Commerce -> 16 Bpt + 84 Bpt = 100 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 50 Bpt
Average turn: (3 x 42 + 1 x 50 = 176) / 4 = 44 Bpt
Break even turn: 180 + 2592 / 44 = 180 + 59 = 239
Beakers by t300: 120 * 44 = 5280
Beakers by t300: 170 * 44 = 7480

000% Research: 15 x 6 Bpt = 90 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 45 Bpt
100% Research: 16 Commerce -> 16 Bpt + 90 Bpt = 106 Bpt x 50% (Academy) = 53 Bpt
Average turn: (3 x 45 + 1 x 53 = 188) / 4 = 47 Bpt
Break even turn: 180 + 2592 / 47 = 180 + 56 = 236
Beakers by t300: 120 * 47 = 5640
Beakers by t350: 170 * 47 = 7990

Between Rostov and Vladivostok, there's not a huge difference. If you believe Research will complete before t300, Rostov has a slight edge. If you believe Research will complete after t350, Vladivostok has a slight edge. If you believe Research will complete between t300 and t350, either Rostov and Vladivostok would be a good choice, but one would benefit from the Academy in Rostov immediately whereas the higher Research benefit of an Academy in Vladivostok would not begin for at least 30 turns, though the benefit of an Academy in either City would be about the Same.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 07, 2009, 11:37 PM

Yeah, I'm trying to get my head around it. Standing settlers around is like an insurance policy. We don't want cities in those crappy spots (perhaps they can run merchants to pay for themselves, but otherwise they just suck), but it would take more effort to dislodge an AI that we know would go and settle them, as we've seen them do so many many times before. Is the (expensive) price of a settler now justified in terms of the nuke, units need to conquer and then garrison (because we can't raze), and turns taken to travel there by ship? Intuitively, I 'd say yes, but how do you prove (or at least measure probabilities for) this?

Yes, its better for us to Settle all possible areas before the War phase, so we have fewer AI Cities to capture in the War phase and it will therefore be of a shorter duration and we Win 1st place (assuming we had better strategies and/or executed them better than any other team).

Once we get Mining, Inc., every little crappy City will have moderately good Hpt and can build a Courthouse in a few turns. When we also get Sid's Sushi, those crappy Cities will grow at for example, 12+ (Sushi Resources) * .75 = 9 Fpt or more, and Grow very Fast! Those Crappy Cities are not so crappy anymore.

Once a Mining, Inc. Executive arrives at a City site, the Settler can settle without significant harm to our economy and once a Sid's Sushi Executive arrives, the City will Grow and at least Commerce, if not Hammers will improve.

In any case, right now privateers are our advantage, and I agree with getting more of them. They are ruling the seas right now, but we have started losing a few, and frigates aren't far away also. I suspect we'll have to maintain stacks of 4 privateers including a healer to stand any chance in the coming onslaught. This should hold out against the 1-2 frigs that an AI usually scouts with. If they send more, ie a navy, we were screwed anyway, and could consider DoWing and using our own frigs. Next to this is no DoW and the insurance of standing settlers.

The Healer can be a Frigate or even a Galleon or a Galleon with a loaded Medic 3. The AI can't touch our Frigates or Galleons without declaring War, thus our Medic units should never be Privateers themselves.

I just had a thought, and don't know if it is even vaguely possible. Conquest means killing all AI, but not barbs. Is there any way to goad barbs into the AI cities, eg if we are at war and kill all defenders except an injured lb? Do the barbs have any cities where they might attempt a foray into AI territory? This is a way to reduce AI size pre-nukes. Just a thought, not sure if it is viable. It might've been very early on. Imagine rushing the AI while there was still barbs around in the fog, pillaging and hurting them while waiting for the barbs to approach. Cha-ching, conquest win by virtue of raging barbs!

This is a great idea. We simply steal Workers from the Barbarians, sink their Galleys when they threaten us, but otherwise allow them to become stronger than the AIs, but never near as strong as us. The Barbarians will eventually find success against the weakened AIs. Notice that the Barbarians captured Gandhi's Horse City?

Gandhi is ripe for invasion by our Riflemen. We just build up a few Riflemen, research Steel, build a few Cannons and blow Gandhi back to the Stone age. After we pillage every single Tile of his Land and kill every defender except the last in every City, he will be ripe for invasion by the Barbarians, hopefully, or another AI perhaps. As a side benefit, Gandhi will stop building Culture buildings and won't be building anything much for a very long time, especially if we can capture his Workers via Knights or even Cossacks.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 08, 2009, 04:50 AM

I suspected that Moscow wasn't good for an Academy, now STW's numbers confirm.

OK, first thing to do next TS is Academy in Rostov. Too much to wait for Sugar2 being setup, we need beakers mostly in next 50 turns. Pity no one of us thought to this before. We lost some 20 or more turns. My fault, your fault, Team fault.

Barbs taking almost undefended AI cities: good idea, but i can't see great results.
I explain: G's horse city was probably defended by a single unit, no cultural defenses.
But surely his core cities, even with a single unit are too much for a couple barbs.
We must also consider that they are far from the barbs galleys routes, so probably a war of attrition with him can be considered, but no hope barbs can help as suggested. Same reasoning for the others AI: their cities are far from the barbs galleys routes, their continent is filled, so no hope. Maybe a couple of Roos' cities, no more. But we can't wait for them once at war: our wars must be short and deadly. No more than 4-5 turns each.
We must have a nuke for any AI city when we declare, and some spare ones. We must have all our troops (ground and navy) already in position. Take as many cities as possible in the first turn using amphibious attacks.
No one of you mentioned missiles. They are cheap and useful and can be carried on submarines. No collateral damage, but severe damage to possible not much injured units. We need a strong navy to carry enough Tac and conventional missiles, but we can spare on ground units.

I was posting while doing else, so edit:
If Culdeus doesn't appear with a "got it" in 12 hours from now, (2:00 PM CET) someone alse must take it in charge. Probably i can play after him, or if Culdeus is in late but can play after, better.

Cossacks are a great UU, but surely i don't wanna research MT or MS. If we can obtain it in trade, OK, otherwise we can do without them.

unclethrill

Oct 08, 2009, 07:30 AM

Two things:

1. All the calculations are based on an average 25% research rate. This will improve as the infrastructure is built so those numbers will be significantly larger.
2. I suggested it 15 turns ago and I believe STW suggested it around the same time but no one else thought academies were a good idea.

greatbeyond

Oct 08, 2009, 08:33 AM

Some times genius is not recognized in a timely manner!

Another great analysis STW! Let's gooooo.

BLubmuz

Oct 08, 2009, 08:50 AM

Some times genius is not recognized in a timely manner!
Often when ones left this valley of tears. :p

Another great analysis STW! Let's gooooo.We're flooding this thread, so i probably missed it. Also, since sometime i has crashes when i was just reading :mad: this would be another reason. The flood is true: this thread has the greater number of posts, beating even Murky and Xteam. Maybe a good sign? Let's hope to beat them in game.

Back on topic: do we complete the detour to railroad, or we wait for Steel in trade and go for the Medicine path (which is half way to Fission, BTW)?

My vote is for finish Steam and go for SM > Phy > Bio > Med and wait to trade for Steel. IF we can't see it on the table when Med or Elec is about to complete, we can change.

unclethrill

Oct 08, 2009, 01:25 PM

Med for Sushi!

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 08, 2009, 08:00 PM

OK, first thing to do next TS is Academy in Rostov. Too much to wait for Sugar2 being setup, we need beakers mostly in next 50 turns. Pity no one of us thought to this before. We lost some 20 or more turns. My fault, your fault, Team fault.

Using one of our two Great Scientists to build an Academy sounds like a Win-Win decision; the only negative is that it essentially means one less Great Scientist to bulb of the next 10 Great people that can be generated in a reasonable amount of turns.

t122: 6th GP will be generated in 4 turns while the Harbor in Rostov is built (Scientific Method).
t133: 7th GP will be generated in 945 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 10.16 turns (Rostov; Physics)
t144: 8th GP will be generated in 1080 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 11.61 turns (Rostov; Physics)
t157: 9th GP will be generated in 1215 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 13.06 turns (Rostov; Biology + free GS)
t172: 10th GP will be generated in 1350 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 14.52 turns (Rostov; Electricity)
t172: Sugar Island 2 National Park starts operation .48 turns later
t189: 11th GP will be generated in 1620 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 17.52 turns (Rostov; Electricity)
t196: 12th GP will be generated in 1890 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 23.63 turns (Sugar2; Fission)
t213: 13th GP will be generated in 2160 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 23.22 turns (Rostov; Fission)
t227: 14th GP will be generated in 2430 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 30.38 turns (Sugar2; Fission)
t242: 15th GP will be generated in 2700 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 29.03 turns (Rostov; Medicine)
t264: 16th GP will be generated in 2970 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 37.13 turns (Sugar2; Medicine)
t278: 17th GP will be generated in 3420 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 36.77 turns (Rostov; Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi)
t308: 18th GP will be generated in 3510 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 43.88 turns (Sugar2; Flight)
t319: 19th GP will be generated in 3780 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 40.65 turns (Rostov; Flight)
t358: 20th GP will be generated in 4050 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 50.63 turns (Sugar2; Ecology)
t367: 21th GP will be generated in 4455 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 47.90 turns (Rostov; Ecology)
t419: 22th GP will be generated in 4860 GPPs / 80 GPPpt = 60.75 turns (Sugar2; Ecology)
t424: 23th GP will be generated in 5265 GPPs / 93 GPPpt = 56.61 turns (Rostov; Steam Power )

We have already generated and bulbed four Great Scientists plus generated one Great Engineer and two Great Scientists (one builds an Academy in Rostov and the other bulbs Scientific Method.) That's a total of 7 Great People generated so far and accounted for. According to the above quoted calculations, we can generate about 10 more Great People by around turn 278. One of those will be a Great Merchant used to found Sid's Sushi in Moscow.

So we will have up to 9 more Great People by t278. We can reasonably expect 8 of them to be Great Scientists and the 9th could be a Great Scientist, Great Engineer or Great Artist; there are other possible combinations of 9 Great People, but they have quite remote possibilities, considering that Vladivostok can generate 100% pure Great Scientists. We can allocate 1 (7th GP) + 8 Great Scientists to bulb:

Technology Size #GS Rem. GSp GAp GMp GEp Great People used
================= ==== = ==== === === === === ===========================
GS -> Academy, 6th G.Person
Scientific Method 3628 1 928 3 34 45 Bulb GS, 7th Great Person
Physics 6048 2 648 4 46 Bulb 2 GS, 8-9th t144,157
Biology 5443 2 43 19 33 Bulb 2 GS, 10th t172 & free
Electricity 6804 2 1404 20 23 Bulb 2 GS, 11-12th t189,196
Fission 8316 2 2916 14 33 Bulb 2 GS, 13-14th t213,227
Medicine 6804 2 1404 28 35 47 Bulb 2 GS, 15-16th t242,264
GM 17th -> Sid's Sushi t278

A Great Scientist bulb in the above calculations is assumed to be 2700 Beakers. Fission's allocation of Great Scientist bulbs was reduced to from 3 to 2, since we may not be able to generate Great Scientists fast enough. In fact, we may have to reduce other Technologies' 2 Great Scientist bulb allocations down to a single Great Scientist bulb and simply research the rest of the Technology.

I fully expect that all Technologies needed to build Tactical Nukes will be completed around t278 and t300 at the latest, assuming we Research very aggressively.

Barbs taking almost undefended AI cities: good idea, but i can't see great results.
I explain: G's horse city was probably defended by a single unit, no cultural defenses.
But surely his core cities, even with a single unit are too much for a couple barbs.
We must also consider that they are far from the barbs galleys routes, so probably a war of attrition with him can be considered, but no hope barbs can help as suggested. Same reasoning for the others AI: their cities are far from the barbs galleys routes, their continent is filled, so no hope. Maybe a couple of Roos' cities, no more. But we can't wait for them once at war: our wars must be short and deadly. No more than 4-5 turns each.

Don't under estimate the Barbarian State; they are already expanding in directions we have ignored.

With Steel, Riflemen and Cannons we can easily take Gandhi's Cities down to 00% Cultural Defense and eliminate all defenders except one, and pillage every single improved Tile and capture as many Workers as possible. If there are nearby Barbarians they can easily take Gandhi's weakened Cities.

However, we don't need help from the Barbarians, because we will have devastated both Gandhi's Commerce and Scientist sources of Research and both Commerce and Merchant sources of Wealth leaving both Gandhi's Research and Economy in absolute and utter Ruin. He will no longer be a challenge to us in Military, Research or Culture.

We must have a nuke for any AI city when we declare, and some spare ones. We must have all our troops (ground and navy) already in position. Take as many cities as possible in the first turn using amphibious attacks.
No one of you mentioned missiles. They are cheap and useful and can be carried on submarines. No collateral damage, but severe damage to possible not much injured units. We need a strong navy to carry enough Tac and conventional missiles, but we can spare on ground units.

You are describing Nuclear War. I'm suggesting that we declare War on Gandhi after building a few Riflemen and Cannons to properly pillage his Land and hurt his Cities as much as possible.

We must also research Fission and Rocketry for Tactical Nukes, Railroad for Mining, Inc., Medicine for Sid's Sushi, Radio for Submarines and Assembly Line for Factory, Power Plants and The Pentagon.

Cossacks are a great UU, but surely i don't wanna research MT or MS. If we can obtain it in trade, OK, otherwise we can do without them.

Both Military Tradition and Military Science are 3024 Beakers each. Military Tradition allows West Point in addition to Cossacks, but WP can't be built until we get a level 6 unit. Military Science allows Military Academies, Blitz and Commando promotions. They aren't needed now and there are better Technologies to Research, but we should keep our Options open.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sweetacshon

Oct 08, 2009, 08:48 PM

Yeah, I don't see much of a downside to attacking G. We're in merc anyway, and he can't counter our rifles. Our units get xp (maybe to lvl 6!), and we can perhaps get a tech for peace. Pillage stacks and a defensive stack on St Ps border, and he has no hope of any comeback. Can the barbs take a city? Who knows, it'd be nice and we hope so, but it's not truly necessary anyway. Booting him back to the stone age eliminates his threat and makes an easy kill when we choose to do so. Other than :hammers:, what is the downside?

I'm for steam and then to med also, I suppose. If we've almost decided on an academy for Rostov, can I bring up OU again? :deadhorse: As bonii are additive, it makes sense to build it NOT in the city with the academy (if we're only building 1) if the 2 cities have similar :science: levels, so that means in Vlad. Something to think about.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 08, 2009, 09:36 PM

We're flooding this thread, so i probably missed it. Also, since sometime i has crashes when i was just reading :mad: this would be another reason. The flood is true: this thread has the greater number of posts, beating even Murky and Xteam. Maybe a good sign? Let's hope to beat them in game.

I'm sure that the majority of posts are mine. It's not just the numbers of posts; some of the posts are also very long; again, mostly mine.

Surely, if we're beating Murky and Xteam in both # of posts and sheer volume of content, we must also be dedicated enough to beat them in the Game as well!

Back on topic: do we complete the detour to railroad, or we wait for Steel in trade and go for the Medicine path (which is half way to Fission, BTW)?

Perhaps, you mean Biology and not Medicine? Biology is halfway to Fission. Medicine is after Fission in Great Scientist bulbing priority.

My vote is for finish Steam and go for SM > Phy > Bio > Med and wait to trade for Steel. IF we can't see it on the table when Med or Elec is about to complete, we can change.

I'm inclined to deny the AI any additional Technologies. Let's hurt the AI via Privateers and declare War on each AI one at a time very soon to capitalize on our Riflemen advantage over them, pillage every single improvement, capture Workers, kill all units except one Military unit per city (thus avoid capture of the Cities). They will be so devastated they will never completely recover before we have Tactical Nukes and the means to quickly build them. We can skip De Gaulle because he's so weak already. We have already defeated the AI; now is the time to start the War of Pillaging, Slaving, etc. with the sole exception of capturing Cities.

We don't really have much choice in what to research: The GS bulbing path is:
Scientific Method
Physics
Biology
Electricity
Fission
Medicine

The pure Research path is:
Steam Power
Steel
Railroad
Combustion
Flight (GS bulbable)
Rocketry

We will probably switch between these two paths as Great Scientist generation permits, since we will want to avoid most Research of the first path, so it is primarily bulbed via Great Scientists.

Additional Critical Technologies:
Radio for Submarine

Additional Extremely Useful Technologies:
Assembly Line for Factory, Power Plants, and The Pentagon
Ecology for Scrubbing Fallout

Additional Useful Technologies:
Military Tradition for Cossacks
Military Science for Military Academy; Blitz and Commando promotions
Artillery for Artillery unit
Industrialism for Marines and Tanks

I would agree that we should pursue Biology eventually, but let's wait till we (almost) have all the required Great Scientists, 1 for Scientific Method, 2 for Physics and 1 + free Physics' GS for Biology or 4 Great Scientists total around turn 172, but we must run maximum Specialists in Rostov right after completing Grocer, or possibly wait to complete the Observatory too (that may delay the final GS needed for Biology a few turns beyond 172). We should switch to Scientific Method about 10 turns before the last needed Great Scientist is generated; that should be enough turns to complete about 928B of Scientific Method, 648B of Physics and 43B of Biology (Beakers remaining after the GS bulbs) by the time that final Great Scientist is generated.

Let's Research Steel or Assembly Line next. I prefer Steel -> Railroad -> Mining, Inc. We can squeeze a few more Beakers from our Monasteries, without really delaying the path to Biology, since that path is mainly GS bulbed anyway. The bonus is getting to Mining, Inc. sooner and having it help build Courthouses and other things in our new Cities, it addition to a serious Hammer boost to our oldest six Cities!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 08, 2009, 10:00 PM

Two things:

1. All the calculations are based on an average 25% research rate. This will improve as the infrastructure is built so those numbers will be significantly larger.

Our current effective Research rate is 25%, 3 Wealth turns followed by 1 Research turn.

However, this only really affects the calculation for Moscow's research, because its Research is almost exclusively the result of Commerce which produce 0 Beakers in Wealth turns.

On the other hand, both Rostov and Vladivostok's Research is dominated by Scientists and their Research remains the same whether the turn is 100% Research or 100% Wealth. The Cities' Commerce was 16/24 Cpt each versus 78/60 Bpt respectively, so the Research turns to Wealth turns ratio really doesn't have that much affect on these two Cities, although it has a huge effect in other Cities.

2. I suggested it 15 turns ago and I believe STW suggested it around the same time but no one else thought academies were a good idea.

I supported your suggestion; I wasn't even thinking about building an Academy just then, though I thought of it many things before and dismissed the idea before doing the math.; never a good idea, since you will never know what you missed until it is too late, if ever.

I regret not doing the Academy calculation right after our Education bulb, which we were committed to doing regardless of the result of the Academy calculation.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 09, 2009, 10:26 AM

Finally i got my PC back. Still installing, i changed some app to make a better use of the System images. Just completed the Office and related phase, next is CIV.

It's incredible the troubles caused by a damn 20€ stick of RAM. Replaced under warranty, BTW.

Well, first off, we must keep the machine warm. Culdeus does not showed up, so next can be STW, then me or Culdeus if he can.

STW, so you don't think to try to obtain Steel in trade? Also, wait to found Sushi after Elec and Fission doesn't delay too much its benefits?
You're a math wizard, please try to figure pro and cons for the Sushi strategy: just remember that once founded we need to build executives and send them to the cities. Longer than you expect, maybe.

Well, if you got some numbers on this you can post it along with your PPP. We can't wait longer.

edit: CIV is now running :) that Buffy is more than a bit tricky to set up :mad:
But now it's OK.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 09, 2009, 06:40 PM

STW up:

Well, first off, we must keep the machine warm. Culdeus does not showed up, so next can be STW, then me or Culdeus if he can.

OK, I'm ready to start.

No trading Techs:

STW, so you don't think to try to obtain Steel in trade?

Perhaps we could get Steel in trade, but from whom and at what cost? The AIs have been defeated in Power, Research and Economy. I see no point in lifting them up by doing a two for one trade (2B for 1B). They get twice as much out of a trade than we do. We should use our superior Research rate to make the Technology gap even deeper. I'm willing to research Corporation and Steel to avoid trading anything of value to the AI to get either one. Printing Press can be traded for what the AI offers, but I wouldn't want to trade anything more advanced.

Since we almost have Steam Power completed, I like the idea of completing Steal and Railroad and founding Mining, Inc. in Moscow as quickly as possible and spreading it to all Cities. Cities will build Courthouses and other buildings and Executives as needed. Our six oldest Cities will build a Bank before Courthouse, so we can build Wall Street in Moscow as soon as possible. Completing Wall Street in the same City as founding a Corporation is usually an excellent idea!

Bee-line Medicine alternative looks good:

Also, wait to found Sushi after Elec and Fission doesn't delay too much its benefits?
You're a math wizard, please try to figure pro and cons for the Sushi strategy: just remember that once founded we need to build executives and send them to the cities. Longer than you expect, maybe.

Well, if you got some numbers on this you can post it along with your PPP. We can't wait longer.

We will have Biology on about t172, in about 30t, mainly via Great Scientist bulbs. GS bulbing Electricity, Fission and Medicine via 2 GS each and generating a Great Merchant will complete on t278, more than a 100t later. That is far longer than we should allow. We just can't generate Great Scientists, even with the National Park and its 13-15 Scientists, fast enough. So, BLubmuz has the right idea here. Research Medicine right after Biology and remove the need of generating 2 Great Scientists to bulb it, reducing the Great Peoople generated by two. Even with this change, we can probably still complete Fission around t250-260, by modifying the GS/GM generation schedule as follows:

Technology Size #GS Rem. GSp GAp GMp GEp Great People used
================= ==== = ==== === === === === ===========================
GS -> Academy, 6th G.Person
Scientific Method 3628 1 928 3 34 45 Bulb GS, 7th Great Person
Physics 6048 2 648 4 46 Bulb 2 GS, 8-9th t144,157
Biology 5443 2 43 19 33 Bulb 2 GS, 10th t172 & free
Medicine 6804 0 6804 28 35 47 Completion t202-212
GM 11th -> Sid's Sushi t189
Electricity 6804 2 1404 20 23 Bulb 2 GS, 12-13th t196,213
Fission 8316 2 2916 14 33 Bulb 3 GS, 14-15th t227,242
or
Fission 8316 3 216 14 33 3 GS, 14-16th t227,242,264

So we can still complete Fission around t250-260.

Sun Tzu Wu

culdeus

Oct 09, 2009, 08:09 PM

I'll go after Sun. I will be able to stick around and follow things now I hope.

Things seem so well thought out but the graph diversion is getting worse. Obviously teams were employing slavery, but I just can't see how that can pay off long term. And even the little minor mis-steps early can't possibly explain the delta.

Edit: Is there a tech we can target by a pillaging war? That has been a hallmark of my tests prior to getting the actual game going.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 09, 2009, 11:17 PM

Research: Steam Power -> Steel

Trade: Corporation for Printing Press, ~500 Wealth for Pressing Press
Demands: Refuse all Technology; Refuse Stop Trading; Accept Resource and cancel in 10t;

Moscow:
Settler +2t +45H OF; Jewish Missionary 1t +62H OF; Observatory 2t +2H OF; Islamic Monastery 2t +61H OF;
Galleon 1t +24H OF; Islamic Missionary 1t +41H OF; Privateer 1t +4H OF; Theatre 1t +8H OF; Privateer 2t +42H OF.

St. Petersburg:
Courthouse +4t +1H OF; Jewish Monastery 4t +0H OF; Bank 14t = 5t + 9t next TS +10H OF.

Novgorod:
interrupt Library 0t; Bank 23t = 13t + 10t next TS +6H OF.

Rostov:
Grocer +2t +15H OF; Bank 13t = 11t + 2t next TS +5H OF.

Yaroslavl':
Privateer +1t +1H OF; Bank 21t = 12t + 9t next TS +4H OF.

Yekaterinburg:
Heroic Epic +1 +23H OF; Privateer +2t +46H OF; Privateer +2t +50H OF; Privateer +2t +54H OF;
Privateer +1t +2H OF; Privateer +2t +6H OF; Privateer +2t +10H OF; Rifleman 3t = 1t + 2t next TS +30H OF.

Yakutsk:
Library +1t +0H OF; University 27t = 12t + 15t in following 2 TSs +0H OF.

Vladivostok:
interrupt Courthouse 0t; Library 41t = 13t + some t in next TS with higher Hammer rate; next University.

Smolensk:
Courthouse +32t = 13t + 19t in the next 2 TSs.

Workers:
Worker 1: complete Workshop 8t; start Workshop 1N+2W of Yekaterinburg 9t = 4t + 5t next TS.
3 Workers in Novgorod: complete Farm; build Farm 1-N; build Workshop 1-NW & 1N2W of Novgorod.
3 Workers N of St. Petersburg: complete Ivory Camp and route; build Workshop 1-SW & 1-S & 1-SE of St. Petersburg or in Yekaterinburg.
Worker 3 (Yakutsk): complete Sugar Plantation & route; build Copper Mine & route.
3 Workers in Vladivostok: build Road 1t; 1-NE 1t; build Sugar Plantation & route 5t+1t; 2-S 1t; build Sugar Plantation 5t+1t.
2 Workers in Galleon off Coast of The Barbarian States: transport to Sheep in Smolensk; build Sheep pasture & route; build Workshop.

Military units:
Great General settles in Yekaterinburg as a Great Military Instructor +2 Experience for every military unit built there.
Knights pillage primarily Cottages and capture Workers.
Privateers protect all labeled City Sites first and all marked (and not labeled) City Sites second. While protecting, destroy as many AI Galleys, Caravels and Galleons (if any) as possible.
Use Medic 2 Frigate to heal Privateers.
Create 1-2 more Medic naval units, if possible, preferably Frigates or Galleons.
Consider upgrading Caravels to Frigates (not likely).
Load Longbowman on Galleon with Settler and move to Site 4; Settle site 4 for Stone

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 09, 2009, 11:28 PM

Things seem so well thought out but the graph diversion is getting worse. Obviously teams were employing slavery, but I just can't see how that can pay off long term. And even the little minor mis-steps early can't possibly explain the delta.

The graphs really can't tell us that much. We may be behind in Population, but I'd guess we may be ahead in Technology. I wouldn't worry too much about the graphs, unless the deviation goes off the scale in the wrong direction for us.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 09, 2009, 11:53 PM

Research: Steam Power -> Steel

Trade: Corporation for Printing Press, ~500 Wealth for Pressing Press
Demands: Refuse all Technology; Refuse Stop Trading; Accept Resource and cancel in 10t;

I doubt any AI will trade Corp for PP. I also have yet to see any AI get more than 200W at any time but good luck in trying to get one of those trades.

Moscow:
Settler +2t +45H OF; Jewish Missionary 1t +62H OF; Observatory 2t +2H OF; Islamic Monastery 2t +61H OF;
Galleon 1t +24H OF; Islamic Missionary 1t +41H OF; Privateer 1t +4H OF; Theatre 1t +8H OF; Privateer 2t +42H OF.

St. Petersburg:
Courthouse +4t +1H OF; Jewish Monastery 4t +0H OF; Bank 14t = 5t + 9t next TS +10H OF.

Novgorod:
interrupt Library 0t; Bank 23t = 13t + 10t next TS +6H OF.

Rostov:
Grocer +2t +15H OF; Bank 13t = 11t + 2t next TS +5H OF.

Yaroslavl':
Privateer +1t +1H OF; Bank 21t = 12t + 9t next TS +4H OF.

Yekaterinburg:
Heroic Epic +1 +23H OF; Privateer +2t +46H OF; Privateer +2t +50H OF; Privateer +2t +54H OF;
Privateer +1t +2H OF; Privateer +2t +6H OF; Privateer +2t +10H OF; Rifleman 3t = 1t + 2t next TS +30H OF.

Yakutsk:
Library +1t +0H OF; University 27t = 12t + 15t in following 2 TSs +0H OF.

Vladivostok:
interrupt Courthouse 0t; Library 41t = 13t + some t in next TS with higher Hammer rate; next University.

Smolensk:
Courthouse +32t = 13t + 19t in the next 2 TSs.

We are behind on power yet the only unit we get out is one rifleman. We also need to get 4 more cities down yet we build only the settler we are almost finished with. I like to get the wealth buildings out and all the privateers but we need to finish our REX and protect our cities too. I recommend that we get at least 1 or 2 more settlers out and in place even if we stall their settling. I also would like to see Yek get a couple more ground troops out.

Workers:
Worker 1: complete Workshop 8t; start Workshop 1N+2W of Yekaterinburg 9t = 4t + 5t next TS.
3 Workers in Novgorod: complete Farm; build Farm 1-N; build Workshop 1-NW & 1N2W of Novgorod.
3 Workers N of St. Petersburg: complete Ivory Camp and route; build Workshop 1-SW & 1-S & 1-SE of St. Petersburg or in Yekaterinburg.
Worker 3 (Yakutsk): complete Sugar Plantation & route; build Copper Mine & route.
3 Workers in Vladivostok: build Road 1t; 1-NE 1t; build Sugar Plantation & route 5t+1t; 2-S 1t; build Sugar Plantation 5t+1t.
2 Workers in Galleon off Coast of The Barbarian States: transport to Sheep in Smolensk; build Sheep pasture & route; build Workshop.

Military units:
Great General settles in Yekaterinburg as a Great Military Instructor +2 Experience for every military unit built there.
Knights pillage primarily Cottages and capture Workers.

I took most all of the Barb workers so there will be a delay in building more for capture. Please keep the Knights stacked together and be careful if you leave the coast spot they are at. I saw a lot of MM in the southern-eastern city just revealed. Those MM will attack a lone knight and kill him. Not sure if they would attempt the same on a stack of 2 but be careful. We need those knights for worker capture more than pillaging right now. I think another galleon would be good so that we could capture workers, put them on the "slave trade boat" and move the knights back onto the "Attack Galleon".
Privateers protect all labeled City Sites first and all marked (and not labeled) City Sites second. While protecting, destroy as many AI Galleys, Caravels and Galleons (if any) as possible.
Those galleys will be protected by Frigates soon so we really need to get the settlers we want for cities, out and in place before those privateers lose their effectiveness
Use Medic 2 Frigate to heal Privateers.
Create 1-2 more Medic naval units, if possible, preferably Frigates or Galleons.
Consider upgrading Caravels to Frigates (not likely).
Load Longbowman on Galleon with Settler and move to Site 4; Settle site 4 for Stone

Sun Tzu Wu

In general this looks good but I would really like to see some of my points addressed too. I know we need to focus on teching but we can't afford to focus on one aspect at the expense of another.

BLubmuz

Oct 10, 2009, 02:40 AM

OK, so my idea about Sushi seems doable. Researching Railroads will give us time to pop more GSs, along with the needed GM for Sushi.
I suggest to work on this right after next GS is popped. Better have it idle than fail after researching Medicine. Some hired merchant will also help our cash and so our research.

STW, i'm surprised to not see any settler in your PPP.
Our priority is still to settle the marked spots.
Also we need some unit (rifles i think) to send with the settlers.

We do not have yet discussed about that 8th spot: is it worth the effort?

Consideration: while is true that a CH can be built in few turns with Mining Inc, it's also true that the maintenance costs are 2-3 times higher than without a Corp. Same applies to Sushi. Wall Street is mandatory to partially compensate for this, but remember: only partially. We can compensate running merchants in cities with Sushi but which will never (or very late) pop a GPerson, but the greater benefit will be the huge amount of specialists that we can run under Caste.

Speaking of Caste, damn G is running Emancipation. This will hurt us when we'll go to war. And this is why i think that a war of attrition before nukes can cost too much in terms of happiness. But it's too soon for this, next priority is settle our planned sites ASAP!

Only Islamic missionaries are a priority, for possibly go together with a settler. The others can wait. Too much privateers, we need rifles and maybe a knight to keep home. Also one more galleon and a frigate. We're finishing our 4th settler, we need 3 more for sure, 4 maybe.

I've seen UT post roughly the same as me, so please revise your PPP.
Suggestion: is possible for Moscow build 2 more settlers after the one almost completed while Rostov will provide for a 3rd one right after the grocer? The needed units for transport/protection/religion can be built in various cities timing their completion with settlers. Or build a settler in any other city is quicker than the 2nd in Moscow?

greatbeyond

Oct 10, 2009, 05:24 AM

BLubmuz

Oct 10, 2009, 06:49 AM

It looks like a very good plan.... except add me to the minor chorus of voices, another 2 or 3 Settlers would be better.

1 Rifle will not be enough if G gets his courage up to attack us. Does St Pete really need a CH right now? I don't have the game going right now, but I can't believe the maintenance is really that much.Minor chorus?
We're 3 out of 4!
But i would say we're 4 out of 4, since STW was the first to recommend to settle all the decided sites ASAP.

I suspect that he's so focused on research to forget this goal, for 2 reasons:
a) it's long time we decided this and he forgot to consider in his PPP 'cause he's not used to the long RL time needed in a SG compared to play time
b) he's growing old :)

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 10, 2009, 11:43 AM

We are behind on power yet the only unit we get out is one rifleman. We also need to get 4 more cities down yet we build only the settler we are almost finished with. I like to get the wealth buildings out and all the privateers but we need to finish our REX and protect our cities too. I recommend that we get at least 1 or 2 more settlers out and in place even if we stall their settling. I also would like to see Yek get a couple more ground troops out.

Yes, I'm also surprised we have only one Rifleman. We can upgrade all our land units, except Knights to Riflemen; we should start doing so, especially in overseas Cities. Do Privateers count toward Power? In my opinion, we need to build about 12 more Cities, not just Sites 4-8 (5 Cities). We still some time yet to REX, but I can add 1 Settler build in Moscow.

I took most all of the Barb workers so there will be a delay in building more for capture. Please keep the Knights stacked together and be careful if you leave the coast spot they are at. I saw a lot of MM in the southern-eastern city just revealed. Those MM will attack a lone knight and kill him. Not sure if they would attempt the same on a stack of 2 but be careful. We need those knights for worker capture more than pillaging right now. I think another galleon would be good so that we could capture workers, put them on the "slave trade boat" and move the knights back onto the "Attack Galleon".

I would never split the Knights up; they need to protect each other. Also, I would hesitate to attack a Barbarian unit with them, even a Warrior, since it may damage one enough that the AI would decide to suicide units against our Knight stack. I may add a Knight build to reinforce our two Knight stack. A Galleon being built in Moscow can transport the Knight.

Those galleys will be protected by Frigates soon so we really need to get the settlers we want for cities, out and in place before those privateers lose their effectiveness.

That is another reason why we need so many Privateers (12 total). Also, we are down to just 3 Privateers +1 completing in 1t and that is far too low to protect even City Sites 4-8.

In general this looks good but I would really like to see some of my points addressed too. I know we need to focus on teching but we can't afford to focus on one aspect at the expense of another.

In my opinion, we have been playing in an unbalanced manner based on the risks we face. There's really no way to spam Settlers (yet) due to their cost of 342 Hammers each, but we can spam sufficient Privateers to make settling Islands by the AI virtually impossible.

OK, so my idea about Sushi seems doable. Researching Railroads will give us time to pop more GSs, along with the needed GM for Sushi.
I suggest to work on this right after next GS is popped. Better have it idle than fail after researching Medicine. Some hired merchant will also help our cash and so our research.

We need 2 more Great Scientists after the next one is generated. There is no reason to run Merchants this early. We should wait at least until we have completed the Bank in Rostov, before hiring Merchants there to generate a Great Merchant.

STW, i'm surprised to not see any settler in your PPP.
Our priority is still to settle the marked spots.
Also we need some unit (rifles i think) to send with the settlers.

I don't entirely agree. We need many more Privateers to protect the City Sites we have marked before we invest too many Hammers into Settlers and supporting units that will have no place left to settle.

We do not have yet discussed about that 8th spot: is it worth the effort?

Yes, but it has only two Tiles where Workshops can be built (Plains) and they are both 5H each and no Food, leaving only +2 Fpt for growth or maybe to help support 1-2 Windmills.

The crappy Sites with a Mining, Inc. Resource each are probably more important.

Consideration: while is true that a CH can be built in few turns with Mining Inc, it's also true that the maintenance costs are 2-3 times higher than without a Corp. Same applies to Sushi. Wall Street is mandatory to partially compensate for this, but remember: only partially. We can compensate running merchants in cities with Sushi but which will never (or very late) pop a GPerson, but the greater benefit will be the huge amount of specialists that we can run under Caste.

We must found both Mining, Inc. and Sid's Sushi in Moscow, so the +4 Wpt income from each branch location of both Corporations is multiplied by +200% (Market + Bank + Grocer + Wall Street). This plus a Courthouse in each City is about enough to cover the extra costs associated with a Corporation. The Corporation should be spread first to all our older Cities which can handle the corporate costs better. Vast numbers of Merchants can be hired in these Cities with the Food surplus of perhaps +16 Fpt in each City with Sid's Sushi. Sometime later these Cities can be supporting 8 Merchants each at stable growth, that's a Base Wealth of 24 per City!

Speaking of Caste, damn G is running Emancipation. This will hurt us when we'll go to war. And this is why i think that a war of attrition before nukes can cost too much in terms of happiness. But it's too soon for this, next priority is settle our planned sites ASAP!

Maybe a War will cause Gandhi to switch to Slavery. War Weariness has more solutions than Emancipation. The pillaging income from attacking Gandhi would be most welcome too. We probably should limit pre-Nuclear War to Gandhi for now.

Anyway, the effect of Emancipation is very minor, until several Civs are running it. At that point, Theatres in all Cities near/over Happiness Cap and running 10-20% Culture slider should suffice. Build a Colosseum in Cities still over or near Happiness Cap.

Only Islamic missionaries are a priority, for possibly go together with a settler. The others can wait. Too much privateers, we need rifles and maybe a knight to keep home. Also one more galleon and a frigate. We're finishing our 4th settler, we need 3 more for sure, 4 maybe.

The Jewish Missionary planned in Moscow is needed to spread Judaism to St. Petersburg, so a Jewish Monastery can be built for the extra 2 Culture per turn against Gandhi's increasing Culture; another reason to attack Gandhi soon plus we can possibly get Corporation from him for Peace.

We are down to just 3 Privateers plus one completing in 1t. Frankly, I'm shocked at the lack of support for our Privateer fleet. Without them, there would be no City Sites left now, except a few crappy ones the AIs have just not got around to settling. The AI will shortly have a Galleons and maybe a few Frigates protecting them. Our Privateer Navy needs to increase from 3 to 12 in this turn set to match this near future challenge! We have been lucky that the 4 Privateers and nearly complete one in my past TS were sufficient to carry us this far; we should have added at least 2-3 Privateers in each TS since then; I'm making up for past neglect of our Privateer fleet. No one else is saying I'm building too many; please reconsider your opinion regarding the number of Privateer units we need/want.

I've seen UT post roughly the same as me, so please revise your PPP.
Suggestion: is possible for Moscow build 2 more settlers after the one almost completed while Rostov will provide for a 3rd one right after the grocer? The needed units for transport/protection/religion can be built in various cities timing their completion with settlers. Or build a settler in any other city is quicker than the 2nd in Moscow?

We need 4 more Banks to build Wall Street! Most of these Cities will not finish the Bank until next TS. We need 2 more Universities to build Oxford University! We can not blindly go forward spamming Settlers without improving our other infrastructure.

With commitments to build 4 Banks and 9 Privateers, there's not much Hammer capacity left to build Settlers and Riflemen.

Rostov must build a Bank after completing a Grocer. We want that Bank in place before hiring Merchants to get a Great Merchant.

It looks like a very good plan.... except add me to the minor chorus of voices, another 2 or 3 Settlers would be better.

1 Rifle will not be enough if G gets his courage up to attack us. Does St Pete really need a CH right now? I don't have the game going right now, but I can't believe the maintenance is really that much.

I can turn off Research and upgrade units to Riflemen, OK?

St. Petersburg can start a Bank, interrupting the Courthouse? We don't need the Jewish Monastery either to resist Gandhi's Culture? No, my plan for St. Petrsburg seems fine as it is. I hope the Jewish Missionary doesn't fail.

Minor chorus?
We're 3 out of 4!
But i would say we're 4 out of 4, since STW was the first to recommend to settle all the decided sites ASAP.

I suspect that he's so focused on research to forget this goal, for 2 reasons:
a) it's long time we decided this and he forgot to consider in his PPP 'cause he's not used to the long RL time needed in a SG compared to play time
b) he's growing old :)

No, there are simply too many other things that need to be done first, before REX is resumed.

With 4 Bank and 9 Privateer builds, I don't see how I could possibly build 2-3 more Settlers and 2-3 Riflemen. I can see about adding a Settler build to Moscow, but something else must be compromised.

When we get Sid's Sushi going a few Cities, we can adopt Nationhood and start drafting 3 Riflemen in any three Cities with at least 6 Population (there will many of these shortly after Sid's Sushi is spread to our overseas Cities) and at least 3 excess Happiness.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 10, 2009, 01:10 PM

Second draft of PPP for TS (t143-156) - changes in this font color.

Research: Steam Power -> Steel; Research will be set to 00% to upgrade several units to Riflemen;
may not get far into Steel as a result.

Trade: Corporation for Printing Press, ~500 Wealth for Pressing Press
Demands: Refuse all Technology; Refuse Stop Trading; Accept Resource and cancel in 10t;

Moscow:
Settler +2t +45H OF; Jewish Missionary 1t +62H OF; Observatory 2t +2H OF; Islamic Monastery 2t +61H OF;
Settler 4t +13H OF; Islamic Missionary 1t +30H OF; Privateer 2t = 1t + 1t next TS +64H OF.

St. Petersburg:
Courthouse +4t +1H OF; Jewish Monastery 4t +0H OF; Bank 14t = 5t + 9t next TS +10H OF.

Novgorod:
interrupt Library 0t; Bank 23t = 13t + 10t next TS +6H OF.

Rostov:
Grocer +2t +15H OF; Bank 13t = 11t + 2t next TS +5H OF.

Yaroslavl':
Privateer +1t +1H OF; Bank 21t = 12t + 9t next TS +4H OF.

Yekaterinburg:
Heroic Epic +1 +23H OF; Privateer +2t +46H OF; Privateer +2t +50H OF; Privateer +2t +54H OF;
Privateer +1t +2H OF; Privateer +2t +6H OF; Privateer +2t +10H OF; Knight 3t = 1t + 2t next TS +67H OF.
After 2 more Workshops are completed 56 Hpt -> 74 Hpt, another Privateer build can be squeezed in before the Knight.

Yakutsk:
Library +1t +0H OF; University 27t = 12t + 15t in following 2 TSs +0H OF.

Vladivostok:
interrupt Courthouse 0t; Library 41t = 13t + some t in next TS with higher Hammer rate; next University.

Smolensk:
Courthouse +32t = 13t + 19t in the next 2 TSs.

Great People:
t143: Great General settles in Yekaterinburg as a Great Miltary Instructor +2 Experience for every military unit built there.
t143: Great Scientist creates an Academy in Rostov.

Workers:
Worker 1: complete Workshop 8t; start Workshop 1N+2W of Yekaterinburg 9t = 4t + 5t next TS.
3 Workers in Novgorod: complete Farm; build Farm 1-N; build Workshop 1-NW & 1N2W of Novgorod.
3 Workers N of St. Petersburg: complete Ivory Camp and route; build Workshop 1-SW & 1-S & 1-SE of St. Petersburg or in Yekaterinburg.
Worker 3 (Yakutsk): complete Sugar Plantation & route; build Copper Mine & route.
3 Workers in Vladivostok: build Road 1t; 1-NE 1t; build Sugar Plantation & route 5t+1t; 2-S 1t; build Sugar Plantation 5t+1t.
2 Workers in Galleon off Coast of The Barbarian States: transport to Sheep in Smolensk; build Sheep pasture & route; build Workshop.
Workers anywhere near Yekaterinburg may be borrowed to complete Workshops ASAP.

Military units:
Knights pillage primarily Cottages near Holy City, especially those two Cottages 2-E.
Privateers protect all labeled City Sites first and all marked (and not labeled) City Sites second. While protecting, destroy as many AI Galleys, Caravels and Galleons (if any) as possible.
Use Medic 2 Frigate to heal Privateers.
Create 1-2 more Medic naval units, if possible, preferably Frigates or Galleons.
Consider upgrading Caravels to Frigates (not likely).
Load Longbowman on Galleon with Settler and move to Site 4; Settle site 4 for Stone

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 10, 2009, 01:52 PM

Looks great. Not sure about stopping the CH in Vlad but I'm sure you have run the numbers there and decided that it was the best choice.

When are you planning to play?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 10, 2009, 02:57 PM

Looks great. Not sure about stopping the CH in Vlad but I'm sure you have run the numbers there and decided that it was the best choice.

When are you planning to play?

Thanks.

I'd like to build Lib and Uni in Vlad before Nat. Park; if I knew I could squeeze Courthouse, I do it now.

It may be Sunday morning before I can play; need to wait for more ack's on the revised PPP anyway.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 10, 2009, 06:22 PM

STW, your point about banks and Unis are more than acceptable, same for Privateers.
But any turn we wait to build a settler is a delay in our REX: how can we be ready with 8 more setttlers before the war at athis pace? A settler needs at least 5 turns to settle, 2 more for the most important (resources) improvements being built and a lot more for the city being decently productive.

You're great with numbers, try to invent a way to have settlers for the main 7 sites ready in 2 TSs (yours and next one), max in 3.

I agree about the 8th spot i marked. It has only a Sushi resource, so we can prioritize some with Mining resources or with more Sushi.
But that site has hills, great for windmills or mines.
Can i suggest you mark the 2nd vawe of sites (decent sites not already planned on #3) in the same color (a brilliant green) and with a sign with a number, so we can discuss them after your TS? And that you delete all the discarded ones? (they are mostly marked with very light, almost invisible, colors).

I don't like to spend money for units upgrades at this stage. Build 1 or 2 rifles, or we can build them next TS.

To found both corps in the same city (Moscow) is a no-brainer. Moscow will have IW and WS, OU will go in Rostov. Is this OK for all?

greatbeyond

Oct 10, 2009, 06:33 PM

I think your revised PPP is acceptable. We have always known there would be tradeoffs.

Which is more hammer efficient, building Rifles or promoting existing units? It seems to me usually, unless the existing units have a lot of experience, it is "cheaper" to build new units.

What were we saving the GE for, The Pentagon or West Point? Or is it now for Mining Inc?

The Privateer plans you have are necessary. You'll get no argument from me on them.

Sweetacshon

Oct 10, 2009, 09:07 PM

# privateers, absolutely necessary. Great! :thumbsup: Maintaining 10-12 ideal.
# banks/unis, almost overdue. Great!
# settlers. OK. We really need to average 2-3 or more a TS. I don't see how to do more with other cities doing banks/unis/courts, etc and then the need for the NWs.
# rifles. Bad. No need to upgrade unless there is an AI hands full situation. We need to find some way to slip a couple into the queues.

Yep GE was for MInc.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 10, 2009, 11:23 PM

STW, your point about banks and Unis are more than acceptable, same for Privateers.

Thanks. Just think of this TS as being dedicated to Privateers and infrastructure (Banks/Universities in this case) we know we will need soon.

But any turn we wait to build a settler is a delay in our REX: how can we be ready with 8 more settlers before the war at this pace? A settler needs at least 5 turns to settle, 2 more for the most important (resources) improvements being built and a lot more for the city being decently productive.

Our REX this TS will be light at 1.33 Settlers (completing last 1/3 of one and building a complete Settler in Moscow). Next TS, we should easily get out 3 Settlers (2 in Moscow and several Settler starts in Cities that complete Banks) next TS. Two TSs from now we should be able to produce 5.5 Settlers; maybe even more in subsequent TSs.

A settler needs at least 5 turns to travel to its destination City Site. Is that what you mean?

For Seafood Resources, we can have our five older Ports build Work Boats and the Work Boats can travel Shore/Galley routes at 3 MPpt to the Seafood Resource to be improved. This method of building Work Boats is much faster than the nascent City building its own Work Boat when it should be building a Courthouse or in the case of Yakutsk and Vladivostok a Library and University.

In future TSs, we can built fewer Privateers, maybe just replacements for lost Privateers. We can build maybe 6 Riflemen in Yekaterinburg next TS.

As Cities complete Banks, they could build more Settlers and Islamic Missionaries.

You're great with numbers, try to invent a way to have settlers for the main 7 sites ready in 2 TSs (yours and next one), max in 3.

I don't understand. Three of these 7 City Sites are already settled. The Settler for City Site #4 is on a Galleon West of Delhi. The Settler for City Site #5 will be completed in Moscow in 2t. The Settler for City Site #6 will be completed 11t into my TS and part way there. The Settler for City Site #7 can be completed 5-6t into the next TS and settle City Site by the end of the next TS.

I agree about the 8th spot i marked. It has only a Sushi resource, so we can prioritize some with Mining resources or with more Sushi.
But that site has hills, great for windmills or mines.

We can bump City Site #8 and come back for it later.

Can i suggest you mark the 2nd wave of sites (decent sites not already planned on #3) in the same color (a brilliant green) and with a sign with a number, so we can discuss them after your TS? And that you delete all the discarded ones? (they are mostly marked with very light, almost invisible, colors).

I will add a second wave of City Sites in Green, starting with number 8. I prefer not to remove City Site marks, except for already settled Cities.

I don't like to spend money for units upgrades at this stage. Build 1 or 2 rifles, or we can build them next TS.

I agree, but Smolensk is too close to Barbarian traffic; its lone Maceman defender needs to be upgraded to Rifleman; Also, I'm not sure how to defend the Workers being sent to Smolensk and City Site #4 from Barbarians; maybe use the Galleon for defense until a Frigate or Privateer can get there.

To found both corps in the same city (Moscow) is a no-brainer. Moscow will have IW and WS, OU will go in Rostov. Is this OK for all?

OK, except Oxford University may be better in Vladivostok where there will be more Specialists that are also immune to Emancipation caused Unhappiness, since its Population can stabilize at 6 with 13+ Specialists.

I think your revised PPP is acceptable. We have always known there would be tradeoffs.

Thanks.

Which is more hammer efficient, building Rifles or promoting existing units? It seems to me usually, unless the existing units have a lot of experience, it is "cheaper" to build new units.

It takes Wealth to upgrade and Hammers to build new units. Of course you mean it is too expensive to upgrade and it is. We should build Riflemen (and replacement Privateers) in Yekaterinburg next TS and in subsequent TSs.

OK, I will limit upgrades to a Rifleman each in Smolensk and City Site #4. They need the upgrades to defend against Barbarian invasion. Maybe, the Barbarian States will not try to capture a City defended by a Rifleman with just two Macemen? If it tries, it will certainly fail with minor damage, if any, to our Rifleman.

What were we saving the GE for, The Pentagon or West Point? Or is it now for Mining Inc?

Our current GE is being saved for Mining, Inc. The next GE (if any) will build The Pentagon, perhaps. We should build both World Wonders and National Wonders, because Stalin is Industrious and we will also probably have the Hammer multiplying Resource for the Wonder soon (Stone or Marble).

The Privateer plans you have are necessary. You'll get no argument from me on them.

Thanks, it appears everyone is now agreeing that 12 Privateers is a good number with the AI on the verge of getting Astronomy and Chemistry.

# privateers, absolutely necessary. Great! :thumbsup: Maintaining 10-12 ideal.
# banks/unis, almost overdue. Great!

Thanks.

# settlers. OK. We really need to average 2-3 or more a TS. I don't see how to do more with other cities doing banks/unis/courts, etc and then the need for the NWs.

This TS is light at 1.33 Settlers. Next TS can be 3 Settlers. In subsequent TSs, All Cities will be free to build Settlers, except Yekaterinburg which should only build military units via Heroic Epic; thus we can be building 2 Settlers in Moscow per TS and roughly 1 Settler per TS in the other four Cities (excluding Yekaterinburg; also Yaroslavl' can muster just 1/2 Settler per TS) or 5.5 Settlers per TS.

# rifles. Bad. No need to upgrade unless there is an AI hands full situation. We need to find some way to slip a couple into the queues.

I'll upgrade no more than two Riflemen, one for Smolensk and one for City Site #4.

Yep GE was for MInc.

I don't see any major objections to the 2nd draft of my PPP, so I assume that PPP is acceptable to all with a limit on upgrades to two Riflemen as detailed above.

I may try to squeeze in a few Work Boat builds on the Continent and send them to City Sites with Seafood Resources overseas, so those Cities can use Hammers on Courthouses and other important buildings.

I plan to play my TS starting in about 8-9 hours from now.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 11, 2009, 03:01 AM

OK for me, go on.
I meant the 3 settlers to be built, i know 3 sites are settled and the 4th is on its way.
I think that in a small map 13 cities are a more than adequate empire size.
We can settle some minor site you identified with resources, to grab those and to avoid the AI settles there. The first thing we need to discuss is our target on settling cities.
Too many can seriously ruin our economy when we steel need to research the minimum requirements for nukes. I know that any settled city is one less to nuke and so on, but we must find a good compromise on this.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 09:47 AM

Evidence of a planned attack:

At the end of turn 143, Gandhi adopted Theocracy.
A Spy (almost certainly Gandhi's) poisoned St. Petersburg's water.

Action taken:

Research set to 00% to build up Treasury for potential (expensive) upgrades. Maceman -> Riflemen is 182W; Pikeman -> Rifleman is 221W; Longbowman -> Riflemen is 263W. Upgrades will be performed only when Gandhi has reduced Defense % down below about 30 and he seems to have a significant chance of capturing one of our Cities.

I have switched our 8 Ept to Gandhi; we have plenty against Mao now.

Moving Rifleman in Moscow to St. Petersburg.

Diverted 1st Privateer build in Yekaterinburg to a Rifleman build to help defend St. Petersburg/Novgorod.

Planned action:

May have to divert some Privateer builds to Riflemen builds in Yekaterinburg to defend against Gandhi's attack, after he has built and upgraded some units to Musketmen. He will probably build up his units for a few turns before attacking. He has 2 Catapults and 2 Trebuchets that I can see, so it could be a short wait ... for the DoW.

Second

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 10:07 AM

We have a Combat 3 Caravel and a Caravel that just survived a Galley attack and now has Combat 1 and a pending Promotion.

The Combat 3 Caravel is definitely worth promoting to a Frigate; I plan to pull back both Caravels into the closest Sea Tile with our Culture for the upgrade. Still not sure whether the 5 Exp Caravel is worth upgrading, but the promotion could be Medic 1 and it could go back destroying Barbarian vessels of all types.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 11, 2009, 10:13 AM

Interesting... our initial tactic to box him should have drive him mad.
A couple rifles can be enough to avoid surprises.
I'd like also to have a frigate to protect our nets, mainly Rostov ones.

Theocracy is a bad sign, but not always it brings to a war. He uses it to build up a well promoted army. I've seen the AI act in this way, then never declare... but not so often.

Have you tried to open diplomacy with him to see how his hands are?

Muskets must be built from scratch.

I think that the best upgrade is caravel to frigates.
Can you spare enough money to upgrade some and finish Steam in your TS?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 11:00 AM

It just cost us 3 Worker turns.

Sun Tzu Wu

unclethrill

Oct 11, 2009, 11:31 AM

It just cost us 3 Worker turns.

Sun Tzu Wu

Guess that would be my Galleon with 3 workers landing somewhere you didn't like.
Sorry about that. I thought I had cancelled that movement.

BLubz, I have removed my shirt and am prepared for the 40 lashes (we are pirates after all).

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 11:33 AM

Interesting... our initial tactic to box him should have drive him mad.
A couple rifles can be enough to avoid surprises.

Moving our Rifleman in Moscow to St. Petersburg and building a Rifleman in Yekaterinburg rather than a Privateer should be enough Land defense against Gandhi for now.

We should also consider adopting Nationhood, which would allow both St. Petersburg and Novgorod to draft two Riflemen each (consuming 1 Pop. per Rifleman) before Happiness approaches the Happiness Cap while having little impact on their Bank builds. To draft a Rifleman, a City must have at least Population 6 (A City after a draft must be at least Population 5).

I'd like also to have a frigate to protect our nets, mainly Rostov ones.

The 5 Exp. pts C1 Caravel can be upgraded in t145. The Combat 3 Caravel can be upgraded in t148.

Theocracy is a bad sign, but not always it brings to a war. He uses it to build up a well promoted army. I've seen the AI act in this way, then never declare... but not so often.

Have you tried to open diplomacy with him to see how his hands are?

Gandhi says "We have enough on our hands." in regard to trading for a DoW on (all) other AI Civs.

Muskets must be built from scratch.

Yes, no unit can be upgraded to a Musketman, but Musketmen can be drafted; Gandhi's not using Nationhood yet. Rather strange that some non-Gunpowder units can be upgraded to Riflemen and not Musketmen at all.

I think that the best upgrade is caravel to frigates.
Can you spare enough money to upgrade some and finish Steam in your TS?

Yes, I plan to upgrade our remaining 2 Caravels to Frigates. I already have nearly enough Wealth to do so (140W each). Can still easily complete Steam Power this TS without building Wealth. We can build Wealth in Moscow when the Settler for our 13th City has been built.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 11:39 AM

Guess that would be my Galleon with 3 workers landing somewhere you didn't like.
Sorry about that. I thought I had cancelled that movement.

BLubz, I have removed my shirt and am prepared for the 40 lashes (we are pirates after all).

It was my fault too. I assumed they had no orders; bad assumption on my part.

We can share the 40 lashes 50/50, OK?

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 11, 2009, 12:27 PM

It was my fault too. I assumed they had no orders; bad assumption on my part.

We can share the 40 lashes 50/50, OK?

Sun Tzu WuI can give you just one half of the punishment since you confessed your mistake :) another point can be the necessity to unload in the most convenient tile for the galleon.

If that damn dwarf declares again, we'll pillage him to the stone age, sure like hell :mad:

As you know i don't like NH, mainly when we need all the power of our Capital for settlers.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 12:28 PM

Build a Galleon in Moscow:

I plan to add a Galleon in Moscow, since we need at least two Galleons for settling purposes and one Galleon for Worker stealing.

Build Work Boats in Moscow:

I already added and completed a Work Boat for Whales near Smolensk in Moscow; I plan another Work Boat in Moscow for the Clams near City Site #4.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 02:25 PM

t147: Mao Zedong has a stack of 3 Frigates 1-S & 2-W of City Site #7. No Galleons or Galleys though as far as I can see.

I have only one slightly damaged Privateer which will be in full retreat.

I need to pause the Game for 2 hours for real world reasons soon anyway, so I'll just save the current Game state and upload it and resume two hours hence. Any comments are welcome on what to do next.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 11, 2009, 02:58 PM

How Mao can have Astro and chem is a mistery. And not so late, too, unless those frigates are upgraded caravels.

I've seen Roos will trade Corps for Chem+130g. I think it's worth taking it. He will never be a threat and it's a good trade, for Emperor. Chem is 2721 and Corps is 2419. For an Emperor AI the actual value of Chem is 2177. Take it immediately, before he changes his mind.

And remember to cancel the deal with dG, i've seen it's doable right now.

I'm afraid the time for privateers is goin' to finish. Better some frigate, also to cover our nets.

Ahhh, nice being back in business :) :D

culdeus

Oct 11, 2009, 03:41 PM

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 05:11 PM

Is there some reason to not irritate G into attacking us? We are quickly hitting the phase where it's just an enter fest and having a little irritating pillaging war is worth the effort.

I'm trying not to build too many Riflemen in the Hope that Gandhi will see his Power double ours and foolishly submits a DoW upon us a second time.

If 3 frigate stacks are showing up then it's all over for the privateer fleet which will make a nice destroyer fleet later.

Only Mao Zedong has both Astronomy and Chemistry. Only De Gaulle has Chemistry, but not yet Astronomy.

I'm not so keen on giving Chemistry plus some Wealth to Roosevelt in trade for Corporation. He may trade Chemistry plus some Wealth to Gandhi for Democracy or maybe not ... If Gandhi is holding Democracy to build The Statue of Liberty, he won't trade Democracy with anyone.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 05:31 PM

How Mao can have Astro and chem is a mistery. And not so late, too, unless those frigates are upgraded caravels.

Maybe Mao Zedong was able to trade for Chemistry from De Gaulle for some Technologies and Wealth.

No doubt the Frigates are upgraded Caravels; there are dozens of Caravels we need to destroy via Privateers before they are upgraded to Frigates.

I've seen Roos will trade Corps for Chem+130g. I think it's worth taking it. He will never be a threat and it's a good trade, for Emperor. Chem is 2721 and Corps is 2419. For an Emperor AI the actual value of Chem is 2177. Take it immediately, before he changes his mind.

I don't like trading Chemistry away, even to Roosevelt.

Does anyone else want to do this trade? I say that Mao having Frigates is enough for now.

After destroying all of Roosevelt's Caravels would be a better time for such a trade.

And remember to cancel the deal with dG, i've seen it's doable right now.

Done, no more free Crab for De Gaulle.

I'm afraid the time for privateers is goin' to finish. Better some frigate, also to cover our nets.

I plan to continue building Privateers to destroy as many AI Caravels as possible before they get upgraded to Frigates. This window of opportunity is not quite closed yet. We should have spammed Privateers earlier, but its still not too late to cause AIs, except possibly Mao, extreme naval damage via Privateers.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 11, 2009, 05:36 PM

I'm trying not to build too many Riflemen in the Hope that Gandhi will see his Power double ours and foolishly submits a DoW upon us a second time.

Good thought! Let him lose some unit and give us a 2nd GG!!!

Only Mao Zedong has both Astronomy and Chemistry. Only De Gaulle has Chemistry, but not yet Astronomy.

There's an AI with some 1.5 GNP than us, but it seem not to be Mao... Churchill perhaps? Probably Mao bulbed it?

I'm not so keen on giving Chemistry plus some Wealth to Roosevelt in trade for Corporation. He may trade Chemistry plus some Wealth to Gandhi for Democracy or maybe not ... If Gandhi is holding Democracy to build The Statue of Liberty, he won't trade Democracy with anyone.I'm almost sure he's building it. I forgot to see why he doesn't wanna trade Demo, but since ot's monopoly, we probably would see "we don't wanna trade yet".

But i think Corps for chem and some gold is a good trade. It gives us +1 trade route in any city and i can't see a better trade. It will probably the last one, or maybe Demo can be worth... but we'll discuss when it's time.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 05:47 PM

But i think Corps for chem and some gold is a good trade. It gives us +1 trade route in any city and i can't see a better trade. It will probably the last one, or maybe Demo can be worth... but we'll discuss when it's time.

OK, I'll make this trade:

Roosevelt: Corporation for Chemistry + 130W

Unless I see objections in the next 15 minutes.

Pausing for a "coffee" break.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 05:58 PM

Continued Privateer production:

I plan to continue Privateer production with an occasional Frigate for Fishing Net defense around Rostov and Barbarian harassment.

Planning Barbarian Worker Stealing Operation:

The Barbarian's already have 5 Workers in action; I've loaded both Knights on a Galleon in hope of surprising the Barbarians and stealing a 3 Worker stack now 1-E of Sakae 6P.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 06:18 PM

OK, I'll make this trade:

Roosevelt: Corporation for Chemistry + 130W

Done. The extra trade route generated about +24 Commerce per turn, so the trade was well justified. We'll make up the 130W paid in just over 5 Wealth turns.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 09:28 PM

Mao Zedong and De Gaulle still don't have Printing Press.

Would the following offer be sufficient?

De Gaulle: World Map + 250W for Printing Press

De Gaulle is now in the Score lead after his capture of Churchill's London.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 10:32 PM

Sweetacshon

Oct 11, 2009, 10:56 PM

Well, that is pretty tempting, hey? A nice buffer for rifle/frigate upgrades at a convenient time. The downside is putting them closer to rifling. However, PP is already out and about isn't it?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 10:56 PM

I'll finish the last 5 turns of my TS tommorrow evening.

You can download the current State of the Game (End of Turn 151) from the SGOTM Server.

De Gaulle is now ahead in Score after capturing London.

De Gaulle will agreed to:

World Map + 390W for Printing Press

Is that good enough? In my PPP, I said I would hold out for 500W.

Roosevelt appears to have just completed Astronomy, making him the 2nd AI (after Mao Zedong) to have both Chemistry and Astronomy. Thus, able to produce or upgrade to Frigates.

Brief recap of first 8 turns:

Destroyed several Caravels and a few Galleys. Captured two Barbarian Workers, pillaged a bit, and Knights survived a Maceman attack. Building 4 Banks and several Workshops. Building Privateers like mad now that Yekaterinburg is at full Hammer capacity for now.

Sorry about the slight delay,

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 11, 2009, 10:59 PM

Well, that is pretty tempting, hey? A nice buffer for rifle/frigate upgrades at a convenient time. The downside is putting them closer to rifling. However, PP is already out and about isn't it?

Yes, I don't think we're giving up too much to make this deal; only De Gaulle and Mao Zedong don't have Printing Press yet.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 12, 2009, 01:19 AM

Yes, I don't think we're giving up too much to make this deal; only De Gaulle and Mao Zedong don't have Printing Print yet.

Sun Tzu WuYes, pressing print, printer print, pressing printer, well, sell that damn tech!

culdeus

Oct 12, 2009, 08:49 AM

Nice. This week is setting up well for me so I hope to be counted on to make some contributions, but the level of which can't possibly match what is already in place.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 12, 2009, 07:05 PM

t152: Rostov generated a Great Engineer

What will we use our 2nd Great Engineer for The Pentagon?

Maybe we should Research Assembly Line after Steam Power to get The Pentagon, Factories and Power Plants?

Sun Tzu Wu

greatbeyond

Oct 12, 2009, 07:47 PM

Everything seems to be going well for you STW. The trade for PP is good.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 12, 2009, 08:11 PM

Everything seems to be going well for you STW. The trade for PP is good.

Thanks. Next turn De Gaulle captured Hastings 9P and had 200W more, but how could we guess he would take another of Churchill's Cities so quickly.

I will complete Steam Power in t153. I am strongly inclined to Research Assembly Line next. That would allow The Pentagon (our second Great Engineer could help build it), Factories, Power Plants and Infantry! There's a chance we could trade for Steel later.

Anyone agree that researching Assembly Line would be a good idea?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sweetacshon

Oct 12, 2009, 08:15 PM

Hmmm... a GE. Is that actually good? That's going to set us back a little on the research side, right? Esp. considering we used a GS on an academy (which was the right choice, but it's just 1 less bulb). Pentagon is good, but considering most of our fighting will be against nuked injured units, is it the best choice?

Sweetacshon

Oct 12, 2009, 08:20 PM

Thanks. Next turn De Gaulle captured Hastings 9P and had 200W more, but how could we guess he would take another of Churchill's Cities so quickly.

I will complete Steam Power in t153. I am strongly inclined to Research Assembly Line next. That would allow The Pentagon (our second Great Engineer could help build it), Factories, Power Plants and Infantry! There's a chance we could trade for Steel later.

Anyone agree that researching Assembly Line would be a good idea?

Sun Tzu Wu
How many turns have you played? I'd suggest stopping so we can discuss that option, considering it hasn't really been on the table before.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 12, 2009, 08:56 PM

How many turns have you played? I'd suggest stopping so we can discuss that option, considering it hasn't really been on the table before.

I've played 11 of 13 turns of my TS, so you are right. I will stop at the end of turn 154, so we can discuss the next Technology to complete.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 12, 2009, 11:34 PM

I will stop at the end of turn 154, so we can discuss the next Technology to complete.

The Game at the end of Turn 154 has been uploaded to the SGOTM Server.

SGOTM Server log:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1836 AD to 1841 AD:

Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (7.20) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 428, 1836 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (8.40) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 428, 1836 AD: (Extra Combat: -40%)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 428, 1836 AD: You have constructed a Jewish Monastery in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Cai Lun (Great Engineer) has been born in Rostov (Stalin)!
Turn 428, 1836 AD: The borders of Orenburg have expanded!

Turn 429, 1838 AD: St. Petersburg has become healthy.
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Vladivostok has grown to size 3.
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Gandhi has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Mao Zedong has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Your Frigate 11 (Moscow) has reduced the defenses of The Holy City to 52%!
Turn 429, 1838 AD: You have plundered 36? from the Village!
Turn 429, 1838 AD: You have plundered 11? from the Hamlet!
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Hastings (Churchill) has been captured by the French Empire!!!
Turn 429, 1838 AD: Mao Zedong has founded Macau in a distant land.

Turn 430, 1840 AD: Rostov has become healthy.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: De Gaulle has 200 gold available for trade.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Mao Zedong has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: You have plundered 14? from the Cottage!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (8.40) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 430, 1840 AD: (Extra Combat: -40%)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Your Privateer 31 (Rostov) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Your Frigate 11 (Moscow) has reduced the defenses of The Holy City to 44%!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Krasnoyarsk has been founded.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Novgorod.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Yakutsk will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Smolensk will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: You have discovered Steam Power!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: You have discovered a source of Coal near Rostov!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Roosevelt has founded Seattle.
Turn 430, 1840 AD: The Water Supply of the city of St. Petersburg was poisoned by enemy infiltrators!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer (7.20) vs Stalin's Knight 2 (11.00)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Combat Odds: 9.5%
Turn 430, 1840 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Knight 2 is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Knight 2 is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Knight 2 is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 430, 1840 AD: Stalin's Knight 2 has defeated Barbarian's Horse Archer!
Turn 430, 1840 AD: While defending, your Knight 2 has killed a Barbarian Horse Archer!

Turn 431, 1841 AD: St. Petersburg has become unhealthy.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Yakutsk has grown to size 7.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Smolensk has grown to size 4.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Roosevelt has 330 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Gandhi has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Your Frigate 11 (Moscow) has reduced the defenses of The Holy City to 36%!

Autolog.txt plus personal comments added via Alt-E:

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 143/473 (1820 AD) [11-Oct-2009 09:42:45]
Novgorod begins: Bank (23 turns)
Rostov begins: Bank (12 turns)
Rostov begins: Observatory (9 turns)
Yaroslavl' begins: Bank (21 turns)
Vladivostok begins: Library (41 turns)
Rostov finishes: Academy
0% Research: 137 per turn
0% Culture: 53 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 52 per turn, 216 in the bank

After End Turn:
Yaroslavl' finishes: Privateer
Yekaterinburg finishes: Heroic Epic
Yakutsk finishes: Library

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Barbarian territory near Parthian, Caravel 1 (3.00/3) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 95.9%)
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Pacifism' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 144/473 (1822 AD) [11-Oct-2009 10:13:46]
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Yakutsk begins: University (54 turns)
A Camp was built
Player Comment Vijayanagara has Musket and maybe Lb & Pike
Player Comment Delhi has C1 Mace, Cara, 2 CG1 Lb, Pike, 2 COL1 Cats
Player Comment Bombay has C1 Mace, Galley, 2 C1 WE, C1 Cb, 2 CG1 Lb, C1 Pike, 2 CR1 Trebuchets
A Farm was built near Novgorod
Yekaterinburg begins: Rifleman (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Work Boat (1 turns)
Player Comment Yekaterinburg building a Rifleman now rather than Privateer as planned
Player Comment Pulling back both Caravels to Cultural Borders to upgrade to Frigates
0% Research: 138 per turn
0% Culture: 59 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 48 per turn, 268 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Work Boat
Rostov finishes: Grocer
Yakutsk grows to size 5

Turn 145/473 (1824 AD) [11-Oct-2009 12:50:09]
Player Comment Upgraded C1 5 Exp Caravel -> Frigate for 140W
Player Comment Churchill's Gally sighted 3-N of Gandhi's Pataliputra
Player Comment Knights pillaged Barbarian Hamlet for 20W & Cottage for 11W
Player Comment Still running Res 00%; Steam Power in 11t
Player Comment Gandhi completed Astronomy and wants Chemistry.
0% Research: 138 per turn
0% Culture: 59 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 51 per turn, 207 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Settler
Yekaterinburg finishes: Rifleman

Turn 146/473 (1826 AD) [11-Oct-2009 13:45:03]
Moscow begins: Galleon (2 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Player Comment City Site #6 appears to still be available.
Player Comment Roosevelt has a City 1-N & 4-E of Atlanta 6P.
Player Comment Sighted Barbarian Horse Archer on Snow 5-S & 2-E of Pataliputra 10P.
Player Comment Barbarian Parthian has C2 Lb, C1Shock Mace and C1 Warrior.
Player Comment Barbarian Navajo has CG2 Lb, C2 Mace, CR1 Warrior.
Player Comment Sighted 1 Barbarian Worker 1-W of The Holy City.
Player Comment Sighted 3 Barbarian Workers 1-S & 2-E of Sakae.
Player Comment Gandhi has a Galleon in Bombay.
0% Research: 138 per turn
0% Culture: 59 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 47 per turn, 265 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Galleon
St. Petersburg finishes: Courthouse
Yekaterinburg's borders expand

Turn 147/473 (1828 AD) [11-Oct-2009 14:38:40]
Diplomacy (Help Request): Gandhi (India) asks Stalin (Russia) for Chemistry; Stalin REFUSES.
Moscow begins: Jewish Missionary (1 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Bank (14 turns)
Player Comment Gandhi's Pataliputra 10P has 2 Guerilla 1 Longbowmen.
Player Comment Sighted 3 Barbarian Workers 1-E of Sakae 6P.
Player Comment Sighted 1 Barbarian Worker 1-W of Sakae 6P.
Player Comment Sighted 1 Barbarian Worker 1-W of The Holy City.
Player Comment Upgraded C3 Caravel -> Frigate for 140W.
Player Comment Mao's Xian 9P has 2 CG2 Lb & C1 Pike.
Player Comment Sighted Stack of 3 Mao Zedong Frigates 1-S & 2-W of City Site #7.

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 147/473 (1828 AD) [11-Oct-2009 17:57:43]
Player Comment Sighted Mao's Caravel 4-S & 3-W of Vladivostok 2P.
Tech traded to Roosevelt (America): Chemistry
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Corporation
Player Comment Roosevelt: Corporation for Chemistry + 130W.
0% Research: 138 per turn
0% Culture: 59 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
100% Gold: 71 per turn, 42 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Jewish Missionary
Yekaterinburg finishes: Privateer

Turn 148/473 (1830 AD) [11-Oct-2009 19:24:12]
Moscow begins: Islamic Monastery (2 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Moscow begins: Observatory (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Islamic Monastery (2 turns)
Moscow begins: Observatory (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Work Boat (1 turns)
Moscow begins: Islamic Monastery (2 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Work Boat (1 turns)
A Workshop was built near Yekaterinburg
While attacking just off shore near The Holy City, Knight 2 (10.00/10) defeats Barbarian Worker (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
Player Comment 2 Knight stack captured 2 Barbarian Workers 1-S & 2-E of Sakae 6P.
A Plantation was built near Yakutsk
A Pasture was built near Smolensk
Player Comment Sighted De Gaulle's Caravel 3-S & 1-W of Yakutsk 5P.
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates English Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking in Indian territory near Bombay, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (4.32/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates English Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.8%)
While attacking in Indian territory near Bombay, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (6.00/6) defeats English Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.8%)
Player Comment 2 Privateer stack destroyed Churchill's 2 C2 Caravels 2-S of Hastings.
Player Comment Sigthed Gandhi's C1 Caravel at 3-SE of Smolensk 2P.
Player Comment Sighted 2 of Roosevelt's Caravels 2-S of New York 10P.
Judaism has spread: St. Petersburg
Player Comment Spread Judaism to St. Petersburg.
While attacking, Privateer 37 (Yaroslavl') decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking in English territory near Agra, Privateer 37 (Yaroslavl') (4.32/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
Player Comment Privateer destroyed 1 of 2 of Gandhi's Caravels at 1-NE of Agra 6P.
Player Comment Sighted Mao Zedong's Stack of 3 Frigates at 3-S & 2-E of City Site 7.
Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) promoted: Combat I
St. Petersburg begins: Jewish Monastery (5 turns)
0% Research: 138 per turn
0% Culture: 59 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
100% Gold: 65 per turn, 113 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Islamic Monastery
Novgorod grows to size 9
Yekaterinburg finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Indian territory at Agra, Privateer 37 (Yaroslavl') loses to Indian Caravel (0.66/3) (Prob Victory: 81.0%)

Turn 149/473 (1832 AD) [11-Oct-2009 20:30:14]
Moscow begins: Islamic Missionary (1 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Player Comment Lost damaged (4.3/6.0) Privateer to counter attack by Gandhi's Caravel at 1-N & 2-E of Agra 6P.
A Plantation was built near Vladivostok
A Farm was built near Novgorod
A Workshop was built near Yekaterinburg
Player Comment Great Scientist will now bulb 2601B of Scientific Method.
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Stack of 3 Frigates sighted at 1-N & 4-E of Chicago 2P.
Player Comment Roosevelt's Galley sighted at 1-S & 2-W of Washington 10P.
Player Comment Roosevelt's Galley sighted in Washington 10P.
Player Comment 2 of Roosevelt's Caravels sighted at 2-W of Atlanta 6P.
Player Comment Roosevelt: 2 Caravels & 1 Work Boat sighted at 1-SW of Atlanta 6P.
While attacking, Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) decimates American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
While attacking on the high seas, Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) (4.44/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
Player Comment Privateer (4.4/6.0) destroyed 1/2 of Roosevelt's Caravels sighted at 4-S & 1-W of New York 10P.
Player Comment Roosevelt: C2 & UP Caravels sighted at 1-NW of Chicago 2P.
Player Comment Roosevelt: C1 Caravel sighted at 3-W of Smolensk 2P.
Orenburg founded
Player Comment Built Orenburg started Build Culture 1 Cpt + Artist 4 Cpt for 3t.
Privateer 31 (Rostov) promoted: Combat IV
Player Comment Mao Zedong: Caravel sighted at 1-NE of Orenburg 2P.
Player Comment Gandhi: C1 Caravel sighted at 1-S & 3-W of Agra 6P.
While attacking, Galleon 1 decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 96.2%)
While attacking on the high seas near Zhou, Galleon 1 (1.60/4) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 96.2%)
Player Comment Galleon (1.6/4.0) destroyed Barbarian Galley at 4-W of Agra 6P.
Player Comment Gandhi: 2 Caravels sighted at 2-W of Agra 6P.
0% Research: 142 per turn
0% Culture: 66 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
100% Gold: 57 per turn, 178 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Islamic Missionary
Yekaterinburg grows to size 10
Yakutsk grows to size 6
Smolensk grows to size 3

Turn 150/473 (1834 AD) [11-Oct-2009 21:53:41]
Moscow begins: Observatory (3 turns)
Moscow begins: Settler (5 turns)
Moscow begins: Observatory (3 turns)
Player Comment De Gaulle captured Churchill's Capital London.
Player Comment Roosevelt: C2 & UP Caravel sighted at 2-SW of Chicago 2P.
Player Comment Roosevelt: 2 Caravels sighted at 1-SW of Atlanta 6P.
Player Comment Roosevelt: 2 Caravels sighted in Atlanta 6P.
Galleon 1 promoted: Combat I
Player Comment Gandhi: 2 Caravels sighted at 1-NW of Agra 7P.
Player Comment Gandhi: C2 (2.4/3.0) & C1 Caravels sighted in Agra 7P.
Player Comment De Gaulle: Caravel sighted at 2-S & 3-E of Agra 7P.
A Workshop was built near Novgorod
Player Comment Great Scientist will bulb 2623B of Scientific Method.
While attacking, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) decimates American Galley (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (5.34/6) defeats American Galley (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
Player Comment Privateer (5.3/6.0) destroyed Roosevelt's Galley at 1-S & 2-W of Atlanta 6P.
Player Comment De Gaulle: Made Wine for Crab deal that Churchill was forced to cancel.
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates English Galley (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Indian territory near Bombay, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (6.00/6) defeats English Galley (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Player Comment Privateer (6.0/6.0) destroyed Churchill's Galley at 2-N & 1-W of Bombay 11P.
Player Comment De Gaulle: Caravel sighted at 1-S & 3-W of Hastings 9P.
Player Comment Gandhi: 2 Caravels sighted at 1-N & 2-W of Delhi 14P.
Player Comment Gandhi: 2 Caravels sighted at 2-W of Delhi 14P.
Player Comment Gandhi: Work Boat sighted at 2-NW of Vijayanagara 11P.
Player Comment Roosevelt: Caravel sighted at 3-S & 1-W of New York 10P.
0% Research: 142 per turn
0% Culture: 66 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
100% Gold: 54 per turn, 259 in the bank

After End Turn:
Yaroslavl' grows to size 10
Yekaterinburg finishes: Privateer

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Barbarian territory at The Holy City, Knight 1 (8.40/10) defeats Barbarian Maceman (Prob Victory: 90.2%)
Civics Change: De Gaulle(France) from 'Bureaucracy' to 'Nationhood'
Civics Change: De Gaulle(France) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 151/473 (1836 AD) [11-Oct-2009 22:58:20]
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Player Comment De Gaulle adopted Nationhood & Theocracy.
Privateer 46 (Yekaterinburg) promoted: Combat I
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
While attacking on the high seas near Vijayanagara, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (3.66/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking on the high seas near Vijayanagara, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (5.28/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Player Comment 2 Privateers (3.7/6.0; 5.3/6.0) destroyed 2 of Gandhi's Caravels at 3-W of Delhi 14P.
Player Comment Gandhi: 2 Caravels sighted at 2-W of Delhi 14P.
Player Comment Gandhi: 2 Caravels sighted at 2-SW of Delhi 14P.
Player Comment De Gaulle: Caravel sighted at 2-N & 4-E of Coventry 9P.
Player Comment Gandhi: Caravel sighted at 1-SW of Coventry 9P.
Player Comment Gandhi: Work Boat sighted at 1-N & 5-E of Coventry 9P.
Player Comment Great Scientist would bulb 2826B of Scientific Method.
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Stack of 3 Frigates sighted 1-N of Sakae 6P.
Player Comment Barbarian Worker sighted at 1-S & 2-E of Sakae 6P.
Player Comment Barbarian Worker sighted at 1-W of Sakae 6P.
Player Comment Nearly a dozen of Roosevelt's Caravels inside his borders.
A Workshop was built near St. Petersburg

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 151/473 (1836 AD) [12-Oct-2009 18:33:33]
Tech traded to De Gaulle (France): Printing Press
0% Research: 142 per turn
0% Culture: 66 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
100% Gold: 56 per turn, 709 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Jewish Monastery
Cai Lun (Great Engineer) born in Rostov
Yekaterinburg finishes: Privateer
Vladivostok grows to size 3
Orenburg's borders expand

Turn 152/473 (1838 AD) [12-Oct-2009 18:56:49]
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Orenburg begins: Courthouse (54 turns)
Player Comment Great Scientist would bulb 2632B of Scientific Method
Privateer 47 (Yekaterinburg) promoted: Combat I
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Stack of 3 Frigates at 3-S & 1-E of Washington 10P.
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Frigate at 4-S & 1-E of Xian 9P.
Player Comment Barbarian Worker at 2-N & 1-E of Navajo 11P.
Player Comment Barbarian Worker at 1-W of Sakae 6P.
Player Comment Plundered 36W from Village + 11W from Hamlet at 1-NE of The Holy City.
Player Comment Set Research to 100%; Treasury 812W; Deficit -225 Wpt.
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Caravel at 1-NW of Yakutsk 6P.
Player Comment De Gaulle's Caravel at 3-N & 1-E of Coventry 9P.
100% Research: 434 per turn
0% Culture: 63 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -225 per turn, 812 in the bank

Turn 153/473 (1840 AD) [12-Oct-2009 20:07:33]
Player Comment Gandhi's 2 Caravels at 1-SE of Agra 7P.
Player Comment Gandhi's C2 Caravel at 2-S & 1-E of Agra 7P.
A Workshop was built near Vladivostok
Player Comment Roosevelt's Settler & Musketman at 2-S & 4-W of Smolensk 3P.
Player Comment De Gaulle captured Churchill's Hastings 8P Hinduism 6t disorder.
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking on the high seas near Bombay, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (3.84/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Player Comment Privateer (3.8/6.0) destroyed Gandhi's C1 Caravel at 1-S & 2-W of Bombay 11P.
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Frigate at 4-S & 2-W of New York 10P.
Krasnoyarsk founded
Krasnoyarsk begins: Courthouse (81 turns)
Player Comment Novgorod 9P Forest Chop provided 44H x 1.25 = 55H for Bank.
Player Comment Built Krasnoyarsk 2P at City Site 5 (Fish, Clam, Marble).
Research begun: Steam Power (1 Turns)
Research begun: Assembly Line (1 Turns)
Research begun: Steam Power (1 Turns)
100% Research: 449 per turn
0% Culture: 67 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -249 per turn, 601 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Steam Power
Yekaterinburg finishes: Privateer
Yakutsk grows to size 7
Smolensk grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Barbarian territory at The Holy City, Knight 2 (5.20/10) defeats Barbarian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 90.5%)

Turn 154/473 (1841 AD) [12-Oct-2009 21:18:39]
Diplomacy (War Request): Churchill (England) asks Stalin (Russia) to declare war on De Gaulle (France); Stalin REFUSES.
Research begun: Assembly Line (14 Turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Player Comment 2 Brabarian Workers at 1-S & 2-W of The Holy City.
Player Comment Barbarian Worker at 1-S & 3-W of The Holy City.
Player Comment 2 Barbarian Workers at 1-W of Sakae 6P.
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Stack of 3 Frigates at 3-NE of Parthian 7P.
Player Comment Mao Zedong's Frigate at 1-N & 4-E of Moscow 15P.
A Workshop was built near St. Petersburg
Player Comment Roosevelt's C1 & UP Caravels at 1-S & 2-W of Atlanta 7P.
Player Comment Roosevelt's C2 & UP Caravels at 1-NW of Chicago 3P.
Player Comment St. Petersburg's Water has been Poisoned again.
A Workshop was built near St. Petersburg
Yekaterinburg begins: Knight (2 turns)
Player Comment Gandhi's 2 Caravels at 2-N & 2-W of Vijayanagara 11P.
Player Comment Gandhi's 2 Caravels at 2-N & 1-W of Vijayanagara 11P.
Player Comment De Gaulle's Caravel at 3-N & 3-W of Vijayanagara 11P.
Player Comment Gandhi's C2 Caravel at 2-S of Agra 8P.
Player Comment Gandhi's 2 Caravels at 2-N & 1-E of Agra 8P.
Player Comment Churchill's Caravel at 3-SE of Yakutsk 7P.
Player Comment De Gaulle's Caravel at 3-S & 1-W of Yakutsk 7P.
Player Comment Great Scientist would bulb 2650B of Scientific Method.
Privateer 48 (Yekaterinburg) promoted: Combat I
Yaroslavl' begins: University (18 turns)
Yaroslavl' begins: Observatory (14 turns)
Rostov begins: Courthouse (7 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Rifleman (2 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Knight (2 turns)

Rostov generated a Great Engineer rather a Great Scientist as we hoped. We still need three more Great Scientists to bulb Physics (2 GSs) and Biology (1 GS + free GS from Physics). After that we need a Great Merchant for founding Sid's Sushi in Moscow.

The 1st Great Engineer will be used found Mining, Inc. in Moscow. What do we use the 2nd Great Engineer for?

1) Settle in Moscow to increase Base Hammers from 41 to 44, increasing net Hammers from 71 to 77 (Bureaucracy + Forge), a net increase of 6 Hammers.

2) Settle in Yekaterinburg to increase Base Hammers from 33 to 36, increasing Military unit net Hammers from 74 to 81, a net increase of 7 Hammers.

3) Start a Golden Age of 12t of extra 1H and extra 1C in any worked Tiles with either plus +100% GPP generation.

4) The GE could also bulb 1764B of Steel.

5) Finally, the GE could complete any build that's not too large and not a Project; if a build is too large and not a Project, the GE should complete most of it; a GE can't be used on a Project.

Perhaps, we should Research Assembly Line now rather than Steel:

Assembly Line would provide Factories, Power Plants, The Pentagon, and Infantry! We could really use the +25% Hammers of a Factory and especially the +50% Hammers of a Power Plant (a Coal Plant would be the only option until Fission).

Losing Mining, Inc. Resources:

Roosevelt has a Settler near a southern Snow Island with Iron (SW of Smolensk), so we will almost certainly lose that Mining, Inc. Resource to Roosevelt. All AI's should each already have an Iron Resource, so it may not be real difficult to trade for, though Iron trades are often quite costly.

Sun Tzu Wu

culdeus

Oct 13, 2009, 12:15 AM

I'd say option 3 when we have all of G's cities up and running for nuke production. Nothing else will really pay off.

BLubmuz

Oct 13, 2009, 02:29 AM

We're losing focus.
AL is useful, but once we have nukes.
The detours for Railroads and Medicine are justified by the huge benefits we can have by founding the related Corporations.
The production of a Mining Inc city is far better than the 25% of an *expensive* factory.
Coal plants are highly polluting and we can't afford them in most of our cities. Nuclear plants are dangerous for possible meltdown, i experienced them often.

Our tech path must be:
Steel > Railroad
SM > Physics > Bio > Medicine
Electricity > Fission
My doubt is for Rocketry. we have 2 choices (while building Manhattan):
a) Artillery > R
b) Combustion > Flight > R

I'm in favor of b, since we don't need siege but strong ships and flight opens airports, useful to airlift units in new conquered cities.

That GE can be used for a GAge or for the Pentagon. Sure, a GS was better at this stage :(

We already researched rifling, which is an insurance on our survival, but it's a partial detour to nukes (unless we go for the artillery route).
Railroad (which means 2 more techs) is a detour, bio and med are.
So, we already planned to research 5.5 techs not in the straight path.
And probably we'll research Rocketry using the longer path. No more detours, please.

STW, do you like to play those 2 turns or just pass the ball to Culdeus?

culdeus

Oct 13, 2009, 10:01 AM

The detours for Railroads and Medicine are justified by the huge benefits we can have by founding the related Corporations.
The production of a Mining Inc city is far better than the 25% of an *expensive* factory.

But isn't this just trading beakers for hammers at this point? It should be relatively easy to simulate the difference between a straight MP beeline and a diversion path to pick up bonuses. If the first team to MP doesn't win then I'd be shocked.

Sushi to me is easy to implement, but despite lots of people talking about the sushi/mining combo I've never had much luck even getting it to break even. Running strictly sushi with it's benefits and the extra work tiles and specialists usually is the path I take on a map like this. Our resource count doesn't really look all that good for mining inc.

unclethrill

Oct 13, 2009, 10:21 AM

I agree with BLubz. No more deviations from the tech path. We need Mining and Sid's ASAP. I think saving the GE for half of the Pentagon is the best use for him.

BLubmuz

Oct 13, 2009, 10:43 AM

But isn't this just trading beakers for hammers at this point? It should be relatively easy to simulate the difference between a straight MP beeline and a diversion path to pick up bonuses. If the first team to MP doesn't win then I'd be shocked.

Sushi to me is easy to implement, but despite lots of people talking about the sushi/mining combo I've never had much luck even getting it to break even. Running strictly sushi with it's benefits and the extra work tiles and specialists usually is the path I take on a map like this. Our resource count doesn't really look all that good for mining inc.I'll start run simulations hopefully tomorrow.
The Manhattan alone is not a guarantee to fastest victory: you need another path of techs to start build Nukes, but primarily the production power to build them fast.
and without Subs (Radio, another expensive tech) you're forced to build ICBMs (just to throw in an example, a Tac in StPete cannot hit any of G's cities).
Also, a path too straight to Fission can be someone's ruin: without adequate defenders, you risk to be an easy target for this aggressive AIs.

And about Mining Inc, if we manage to settle that spot with 2 silver and crabs and we discover some coal, we're in good shape: some 10+ MI resources equals to 3-4 mines in any city.

After the path i propsed, we'll backfill AL, then Radio for subs, so we can use Tacs in our second or third war. But for our nice neighbour, mister G, we need ICBMs even if we're so close. Close, but so faraway. :)

culdeus

Oct 13, 2009, 11:17 AM

I guess you can't airlift tacs? I need to test that.

BLubmuz

Oct 13, 2009, 11:27 AM

I guess you can't airlift tacs? I need to test that.I'm 99% sure of this:
Tacs and missiles do NOT need to be airlifted, they can be rebased like any other air unit.
Bu to load them on a sub (or a missile cruiser) the ship has to be in port.
They differs from fighters, since you can rebase them in a carrier in the middle of the sea.

unclethrill

Oct 13, 2009, 11:39 AM

I'm 99% sure of this:
Tacs and missiles do NOT need to be airlifted, they can be rebased like any other air unit.
Bu to load them on a sub (or a missile cruiser) the ship has to be in port.
They differs from fighters, since you can rebase them in a carrier in the middle of the sea.

IIRC this is true. I'm in the middle of a game right now and will likely take it to nukes just for the heck of it so I can have some info on it later tonight if work will stop interfering with my gaming time.

greatbeyond

Oct 13, 2009, 02:38 PM

Here is the link to my explanation of Nukes.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8522346#post8522346

I never tried to base them on a Carrier.

culdeus

Oct 13, 2009, 02:46 PM

Position Nukes within reach of cities closest to the border, building Forts as necessary to get within the required four tiles.

I always sort of picture forts as some sort of stack of grey stone with a moat and drawbridge. Except sometimes they serve as a launchpad for thermonuclear devices. Strange game.

I have to think we can strike G without ICBM for all cities except perhaps Bombay with well planned fort based nukes, but I could be wrong about that.

At this point it does look like a Marine/Tank invasion force is not needed, correct? Infantry will carry the bulk of the work here? Maybe cossacks for the absolute weakest foes?

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 13, 2009, 04:09 PM

I'd say option 3 when we have all of G's cities up and running for nuke production. Nothing else will really pay off.

A (12t) Great Age would be a good use a Great Engineer, especially for the +100% GPP bonus in all all Cities, plus all that extra Commerce and Hammers. Especially useful to use when building a Project or researching a very large Technology.

We're losing focus.
AL is useful, but once we have nukes.

I'm mainly suggesting Assembly Line now, because we need to be building things faster right now, but mainly so we can perhaps trade for Steel sometime while completing Assembly Line.

The detours for Railroads and Medicine are justified by the huge benefits we can have by founding the related Corporations.

Of course, but the Executives (135H) will be expensive to build.

The production of a Mining Inc city is far better than the 25% of an *expensive* factory.

OK, you are right; a Factory at 337H is too expensive to build without Mining, Inc. in the target City; even the Coal Plant at 202H is quite expensive.

Coal plants are highly polluting and we can't afford them in most of our cities. Nuclear plants are dangerous for possible meltdown, i experienced them often.

Surely, after Mining, Inc. we can afford to build Factories and Coal Plants or Nuclear Plants. With Biology's +1F Farms and Sid's Sushi, extra Health would be nice but's not critical. We need large Hammer capacity to build Tactical Nukes more than we need the few points of Health that a Coal Plant negates. If you want a Coal free City we have Vladivostok with its National Park.

Our tech path must be:
Steel > Railroad
SM > Physics > Bio > Medicine
Electricity > Fission

We should try to complete both Steel and Railroad before we have the 4 Great Scientists needed to bulb Scientific Method, Physics and Biology. We should be able to generate a Great Merchant in Rostov in the time it takes to Research Medicine.

My doubt is for Rocketry. we have 2 choices (while building Manhattan):
a) Artillery > R
b) Combustion > Flight > R

I'm in favor of b, since we don't need siege but strong ships and flight opens airports, useful to airlift units in new conquered cities.

I'm convinced that we must go to Rocketry via Combustion and Flight. We will probably need Combustion for Transports and Destroyers. Flight doesn't seem that important, but Airports could be useful for transferring foot soldiers.

That GE can be used for a GAge or for the Pentagon. Sure, a GS was better at this stage :(

We already researched rifling, which is an insurance on our survival, but it's a partial detour to nukes (unless we go for the artillery route).

No, Rifling is a prerequisite for Rocketry. We needed Rifling prior to Rocketry anyway.

Railroad (which means 2 more techs) is a detour, bio and med are.
So, we already planned to research 5.5 techs not in the straight path.
And probably we'll research Rocketry using the longer path. No more detours, please.

It was only a suggestion and no Beakers applied to Assembly Line yet, so no harm other than some delay.

STW, do you like to play those 2 turns or just pass the ball to Culdeus?

Yes, I prefer to complete the final 2 turns of my TS. Thanks.

But isn't this just trading beakers for hammers at this point? It should be relatively easy to simulate the difference between a straight MP beeline and a diversion path to pick up bonuses. If the first team to MP doesn't win then I'd be shocked.

Sushi to me is easy to implement, but despite lots of people talking about the sushi/mining combo I've never had much luck even getting it to break even. Running strictly sushi with it's benefits and the extra work tiles and specialists usually is the path I take on a map like this. Our resource count doesn't really look all that good for mining inc.

What is MP in this context? Can we please spell things out at least once.

I agree with BLubz. No more deviations from the tech path. We need Mining and Sid's ASAP. I think saving the GE for half of the Pentagon is the best use for him.

Agreed, on the Technology path. GE for a Golden Age can be good too; I'm also OK with using the GE to complete most of The Pentagon.

I'll start run simulations hopefully tomorrow.
The Manhattan alone is not a guarantee to fastest victory: you need another path of techs to start build Nukes, but primarily the production power to build them fast.
and without Subs (Radio, another expensive tech) you're forced to build ICBMs (just to throw in an example, a Tac in StPete cannot hit any of G's cities).
Also, a path too straight to Fission can be someone's ruin: without adequate defenders, you risk to be an easy target for this aggressive AIs.

I'm convinced we need Radio for Submarines, but please go ahead and simulate; I wish we had an up to date test Map that (closely?) matches our current Game state, but what we have is quite a ways back.

And about Mining Inc, if we manage to settle that spot with 2 silver and crabs and we discover some coal, we're in good shape: some 10+ MI resources equals to 3-4 mines in any city.

We have just one Coal in Rostov; nothing else. We need to settle a few more Cities for additional Mining, Inc. Resources; I'll add dot maps and signs for these.

After the path i propsed, we'll backfill AL, then Radio for subs, so we can use Tacs in our second or third war. But for our nice neighbour, mister G, we need ICBMs even if we're so close. Close, but so faraway. :)

Not sure it makes sense to build ICBMs for for lack of Radio and Submarines to launch Tactical Nukes. It depends on how long the wait for Assembly Line and Radio will be. We may be able to stockpile a nice number of Tactical Nukes while completing Assembly Line and Radio.

I will finish my TS, 2 more turns right now.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 13, 2009, 04:11 PM

I'm in the process of playing the final two turns of my TS.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 13, 2009, 04:25 PM

Here is the link to my explanation of Nukes.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8522346#post8522346

I never tried to base them on a Carrier.A carrier carries only Fighters.
I used this to better explain the difference.

Your linked post is correct, but Tacs and Conventional missiles are rebased, not airlifted.
There's a huge difference.

BLubmuz

Oct 13, 2009, 04:36 PM

A (12t) Great Age would be a good use a Great Engineer, especially for the +100% GPP bonus in all all Cities, plus all that extra Commerce and Hammers. Especially useful to use when building a Project or researching a very large Technology.

And Maybe to change civics if needed. But let's keep him idle for now, there's time to discuss this.

Yes, I prefer to complete the final 2 turns of my TS. Thanks.
You're welcome :)

What is MP in this context? Can we please spell things out at least once.
Not easy for me too... Manhattan Project :p

Agreed, on the Technology path. GE for a Golden Age can be good too; I'm also OK with using the GE to complete most of The Pentagon.
see above

Not sure it makes sense to build ICBMs for for lack of Radio and Submarines to launch Tactical Nukes. It depends on how long the wait for Assembly Line and Radio will be. We may be able to stockpile a nice number of Tactical Nukes while completing Assembly Line and Radio.

I will finish my TS, 2 more turns right now.Speed is the key to win (the contest, not the game... or mybe that too).
We must choose the fastest way to win. I'm almost sure ICBMs are needed, also for a backup. We can also prioritize Radio to AL, to have those subs. Rifles are more than enough to take injured units, even rifles. Cossacks will be of help, if we can make a reasonable trade for MT. It's a great unit, until tanks.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 13, 2009, 10:02 PM

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1841 AD to 1843 AD:

Turn 431, 1841 AD: St. Petersburg has become unhealthy.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Yakutsk has grown to size 7.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Smolensk has grown to size 4.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Roosevelt has 330 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Gandhi has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Your Frigate 11 (Moscow) has reduced the defenses of The Holy City to 36%!
Turn 431, 1841 AD: De Gaulle has 210 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Roosevelt has 330 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Gandhi has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Mao Zedong has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Mao Zedong has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Observatory.

Turn 432, 1842 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Smolensk!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Churchill has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) (6.60) vs Roosevelt's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Your Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (6.40) vs Roosevelt's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Combat Odds: 96.9%
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Your Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) (7.20) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 30 (Moscow) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Your Privateer 30 (Moscow) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) (7.89) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: -40%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (82/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (70/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) is hit for 12 (58/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 31 (Rostov) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Your Privateer 31 (Rostov) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 46 (Yekaterinburg) (6.60) vs De Gaulle's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: De Gaulle's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: De Gaulle's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: De Gaulle's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: De Gaulle's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Stalin's Privateer 46 (Yekaterinburg) has defeated De Gaulle's Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: El Cid (Great General) has been born in Yaroslavl' (Stalin)!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Your Privateer 46 (Yekaterinburg) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: You have constructed a Bank in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Observatory.
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Confucianism has spread in Smolensk.
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Nanjing (Churchill) has been captured by the French Empire!!!

Turn 433, 1843 AD: De Gaulle has 280 gold available for trade.
Turn 433, 1843 AD: The borders of Krasnoyarsk are about to expand.
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 48 (Yekaterinburg) (6.60) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 433, 1843 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 48 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 48 (Yekaterinburg) has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Your Privateer 48 (Yekaterinburg) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (6.76) vs Roosevelt's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 433, 1843 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Your Privateer 33 (Novgorod) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) (6.69) vs Roosevelt's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 433, 1843 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 13 (80/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 13 (67/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) is hit for 13 (54/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) has defeated Roosevelt's Caravel!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Your Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Knight 1 (12.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 433, 1843 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Knight 1 is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Stalin's Knight 1 has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Your Knight 1 has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Deal Canceled: Fish to Mao Zedong for Gold Per Turn (2)
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Deal Canceled: Fish to De Gaulle for Gold Per Turn (8)

autolog.txt:

Logging by BUFFY 4.0 (BtS 3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 154/473 (1841 AD) [13-Oct-2009 15:12:46]
Research begun: Steel (8 Turns)
Research begun: Assembly Line (14 Turns)
Research begun: Steel (8 Turns)
100% Research: 435 per turn
0% Culture: 67 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -252 per turn, 352 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Settler
Yekaterinburg finishes: Knight

Turn 155/473 (1842 AD) [13-Oct-2009 18:35:47]
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Work Boat (1 turns)
While attacking, Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) decimates American Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near Washington, Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) (5.16/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) decimates American Caravel (Prob Victory: 96.9%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near Washington, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (5.34/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 96.9%)
Player Comment Privateers destroyed Roosevelt's 2 C1 Caravels at 2-NW of Sakae 6P; UP Caravel remains.
Player Comment Roosevelt's C1 Caravel at 1-SW of Washington 10P.
While attacking, Privateer 30 (Moscow) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
While attacking on the high seas near Vijayanagara, Privateer 30 (Moscow) (5.22/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
Player Comment Privateer (5.2/6.0) destroyed Gandhi's Caravel at 3-N & 1-W of Vijatanagara 11P; 1 Caravel remains.
Player Comment Sighted Gandhi's 2 Caravels at 2-N of Vijatanagara 11P.
While attacking, Privateer 31 (Rostov) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
While attacking on the high seas near Vijayanagara, Privateer 31 (Rostov) (3.48/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
Player Comment Privateer (3.5/6.0) destroyed Gandhi's Caravel at 3-N & 1-W of Vijatanagara 11P.
Player Comment Churchill's Caravel sighted at 3-N & 2-W of Chicago 3P.
Player Comment Roosevelt's Caravel sighted at 2-SE of Chicago 3P.
Player Comment Gandhi's Caravel at 3-N & 1-W of Bombay 11P.
El Cid (Great General) born in Yaroslavl'
While attacking, Privateer 46 (Yekaterinburg) decimates French Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking in Indian territory at Bombay, Privateer 46 (Yekaterinburg) (6.00/6) defeats French Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
Player Comment Privateer (6.0/6.0) destroyed De Gaulle's Caravel at 1-SW of Bombay 11P.
Player Comment Yaroslavl' generated a Great General.
Player Comment Churchill's Caravel 3-S of Yakutsk 7P.
Player Comment Research 00% at +20 Wpt.
Player Comment Churchill's Caravel at 2-S & 4-W of Yakutsk 7P.
Player Comment Barbarian Galley at 1-S & 3-W of Smolensk 4P.
Moscow begins: Settler (5 turns)
Moscow begins: Courthouse (3 turns)
0% Research: 147 per turn
0% Culture: 67 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
100% Gold: 17 per turn, 100 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rostov finishes: Bank
Yekaterinburg finishes: Work Boat
Confucianism has spread: Smolensk

Turn 156/473 (1843 AD) [13-Oct-2009 20:48:29]
Yekaterinburg begins: Privateer (2 turns)
Player Comment Churchill's Nanjing was captured by De Gaulle.
Rostov begins: Work Boat (2 turns)
Rostov begins: Observatory (9 turns)
Rostov begins: Work Boat (2 turns)
A Workshop was built near Orenburg
A Workshop was built near Novgorod
While attacking, Privateer 48 (Yekaterinburg) decimates Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking just off shore near Calcutta, Privateer 48 (Yekaterinburg) (5.16/6) defeats Indian Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
Player Comment Privateer (5.2/6.0) destroyed Gandhi's Caravel at 4-S & 3-W of Calcutta 3P.
Player Comment Roosevelt's 4 Caravels at 3-S & 2-W of Chicago 3P.
Player Comment Roosevelt's 2 Caravels at 4-S & 1-W of Chicago 3P.
Player Comment Roosevelt's Caravel at 5-S & 2-E of Chicago 3P.
Player Comment Churchill's Caravel at 3-N & 2-W of Varanasi 3P.
Player Comment De Gaulle's Caravel at 3-N & 2-W of Varanasi 3P.
Player Comment Churchill's Caravel at 2-NE of Varanasi 3P.
Privateer 33 (Novgorod) promoted: Medic I
Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) promoted: Combat II
While attacking, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) decimates American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near Atlanta, Privateer 33 (Novgorod) (5.64/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
While attacking, Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) decimates American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory near Atlanta, Privateer 43 (Yekaterinburg) (3.24/6) defeats American Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
Player Comment 2 Privateers (5.6/6.0 & 3.2/6.0) destroyed Roosevelt's 2 Caravels at 3-N & 1-E of Sakae 6P.
While attacking, Knight 1 decimates Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking just off shore, Knight 1 (9.00/10) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Rostov begins: Work Boat (2 turns)
Rostov begins: Work Boat (2 turns)
Player Comment Mao Zedong: cancelled 2 Wpt for Fish; 7 Wpt for Fish.
Player Comment De Gaulle: cancelled 8 Wpt for Fish; 11 Wpt for Fish.
Player Comment Gandhi's 2 Caravels at 1-N & 3-W of Delhi.
Player Comment Foreign income provides all +26 Wpt of our surplus at Research 00%.
Player Comment Moved City Site #6 2-SE, so City Site #8 would have its own Crab Resource.
Player Comment Changed old City Site #8 to new City Site #12.
Player Comment New City Sites #8 - #13 have bright Green Dot Maps.
Player Comment Several less desirable City Sites have Yellow Dot Maps and no Signs.

Mao Zedong's Stack of 3 Frigates is located at 1-N & 2-W of Sakae 6P.

Mao Zedong's lone Frigate is maybe located 4-W of Shanghai 10P.

The Game has been uploaded to the SGOTM Server.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 13, 2009, 10:33 PM

I captured 2 Barbarian Workers in early in the TS.

However, a Knight lost nearly half its strength due to a Barbarian Horse Archer attack. So I loaded both Knights with the idea of using the Medic 2 Frigate to heal them. Then I moved the Medic 2 Frigate to help heal 2 Privateers SW of Roosevelt. Now I'm moving the two Knights to pick up the recently built Knight for a Stack of 3 Knights to capture Workers and do a little pillaging in between. The new Knight should probably get Combat 1 and Medic 1 promotions, so the Knights can heal faster in Barbarian territory.

The Barbarian Workers are very easy to pick off when they are in Tiles adjacent to Shore Tiles. Just move the Frigate to locate the largest group of Barbarian Workers and move the Galleon with the Knights to an adjacent Shore Tile. Attack and capture the undefended Workers with all Knights on the Same Tile to eliminate any chance of a counter attack.

The Barbarian Workers have been sighted between Sakae 6P and The Holy City 4P on the West coast most recently. There have been as many a three Workers on a Tile at a time. There have been mostly just been a Maceman and Warrior in both Sakae and The Holy City, so there is low risk of being attacked while the Knights are stacked and at full Strength.

When the Knight is picked up, please also move the Great General from Yaroslavl' to the Continent via the Knight's Galleon were he might be more useful. To make this easier, one Knight was dropped off to attack an annoying Barbarian Warrior.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 13, 2009, 10:45 PM

We are now at roughly 9% Research = 10 Wealth turns followed by 1 Research turn.

We have completed our second Bank in Rostov. Bank #3 in 3t; Banks #4 and #5 in 6t. Then Moscow must quickly build Wall Street. That should help a lot.

We can also Build Wealth in several Cities that have nothing more important to build. We could easily double or even triple our Research rate by building a lot of Wealth.

Running Merchants is another option, but it doesn't work as well as building Wealth, unless large numbers of Merchants can be hired in Cities with high Wealth multipliers.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 14, 2009, 04:00 AM

Culdeus, please post a PPP soon.

OK, i'll try to do some playtesting.
9% research? we're ruining ourselves, but we need the last settlers out ASAP, at least to complete the 7 spots posted on #3.

I'll also post some comment after seen the save.

culdeus

Oct 14, 2009, 07:36 AM

culdeus

Oct 14, 2009, 08:53 AM

Copied from prior PPP. Still need to review save and logs. Will be editing this thru the day so no comments yet.

PPP (t157-169)
Research: Steel (18 currently)
Great Person: 11 Turns till likely GS in Rostov

Trade:
Demands: Refuse all Technology; Refuse Stop Trading; Accept Resource and cancel in 10t;

Moscow:
Building Settler. Next build Rifle then Wealth until Wall Street is available to build.

St. Petersburg:
Bank in 6 then Perhaps grocer to counter green faces plus slight wealth boost.

Novgorod:
Bank 23t = 13t + 10t next TS +6H OF. Build Wealth?

Rostov:
Bank 13t = 11t + 2t next TS +5H OF. Wealth?

Yaroslavl':
Bank 21t = 12t + 9t next TS +4H OF. Wealth?

Yekaterinburg:
Privateer in 1 then Bank then alternate privateer and frigates. Would consider harbor here.

Yakutsk:
University 27t = 12t + 15t in following 2 TSs +0H OF.

Vladivostok:
Library 41t = 13t + some t in next TS with higher Hammer rate; next University.

Smolensk:
Courthouse +32t = 13t + 19t in the next 2 TSs.

Workers:
Use discretion to improve tiles with lean to hammer tiles. Get workers in position to move to new city sites via galleys where applicable. Did not make note of any particular thing to address.

Military units:
Great General promotes to super medic either mace or knight. Always more inclined to promote horse troop to medic.
Knights pillage primarily Cottages and capture Workers.
Privateers protect all labeled City Sites first and all marked (and not labeled) City Sites second. While protecting, destroy as many AI Galleys, Caravels and Galleons (if any) as possible.
Use Medic 2 Frigate to heal Privateers.
Consider upgrading Caravels to Frigates (not likely).
Also try to get some privateers up and to the east of roosevelt.

BLubmuz

Oct 14, 2009, 09:10 AM

unclethrill

Oct 14, 2009, 09:20 AM

No comments but a suggestion would be to look into how many more banks we need for WS so taht we can get it in Moscow ASAP. We have to get it in there before MI.

culdeus

Oct 14, 2009, 09:30 AM

Brutally copied, i think most of the things are already done.

We have a 2nd GG now: i propose to use him as a super healer.
If we have a mace with enough Xp to promote him to Medic3 and mobility, great, otherwise a knight.

Remember, the main priority is to complete the settlement of the 7 main spots (the ones posted on my #3 and marked in red).

So there is consensus that settling rather than sentry the settlers on those 7 sites is the way to go. And state property will not be employed at any time due to research gap as well as impact to corps? This is settled? What if we at least wait to settle until wall street is in?

Will we ever see a non 0% research rate again?

EDIT: I can't get to the GOTM page to download and view save. Apparently server is down till 2pm my time.

BLubmuz

Oct 14, 2009, 02:33 PM

The server is working now.

STW made a good job marking new sites and repositioning #6. I complitely agree on his choice.
The settler for the 7th site (3 seafood) is 4 turns away in Moscow, then we'll stop until our cities are structured.

No more settlers. Moscow can build a rifle to be safe, then whealth.

I agree about WS ASAP. BTW, in a small map, 5 banks are needed, as 5 unis for OU.
2 to go in both, but banks are closer, 2 will be completed in your TS.

Once the copper will be hooked in Yakutsk (Sugar1) Mining Inc will net us 10 hpt, more when we'll cancel the gold to G for 4gpt and the silver to Mao for silk.
Once sugar is hooked, we can do those changes substituting MI resources with sugar.
Thus, MI would give us some 14 hpt.
edit: do NOT cancel the silk deal with Mao: he's got only one, the other one is in english borders now.

Also, no more tech trading.

WS is an expensive NW, so i think it's better found MI in Moscow, build it and when it's close to completion, break for an executive.

There's a barb galley near Smolensk, better keep some ship around there.

Roos is friendly, so you can try to ask him some money.

dG is growing and Church is in bad shape, despite his protective trait.

Fire the Eng in Rostov, change with a Sci. Another Ge will be a disaster!!!

Sweetacshon

Oct 14, 2009, 06:49 PM

So all the banks and unis are queued? This is good news, I'd say this is high priority now we have rexxed more. Re: standing settlers... I'm still all for just having him stand there until a more opportune moment.

G still has hands full, right? I imagine a few more rifles wouldn't go astray.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 14, 2009, 07:00 PM

No comments but a suggestion would be to look into how many more banks we need for WS so taht we can get it in Moscow ASAP. We have to get it in there before MI.

We need 3 more Banks which I was working on in the last TS:

t159: Novogorod: Bank completed
t162: St. Petersburg: Bank completed
t162: Yaroslavl': Bank completed

t160: Moscow: Settler completed (for 13th City)
t162: Moscow: Observatory completed
t162: Moscow: Wall Street (810H) started at 91 Hpt (20 HPt extra due to Industrious trait)
t171: Moscow: Wall Street completed which will add +55 Wpt in Wealth turns.
t171: Moscow: Increase population to work more Shore Tiles (2F2C), increasing Wealth yield by +6 Wpt for each such extra Tile worked.

Thus, Wall Street will be in place before even the most optimistic schedule for completing Mining, Inc.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 14, 2009, 07:52 PM

Building Wealth in Cities as they complete a Bank:

t156: Rostov should fire the Engineer and hire a Scientist, and build Wealth 22 Wpt.

t159: Novgorod completes a Bank and starts Wealth 20 Wpt.

t162: St. Petersburg completes a Bank and starts Wealth 31 Wpt, eventually rising to 36 Wpt as the Poison in the Water dissipates.

t162: Yaroslavl' completes a Bank, fires Citizen (1H) and hires Merchant (3W), and builds Wealth 13 Wpt.

t162: With these four Cities Building Wealth, 22 Wpt + 20 Wpt + 31 Wpt + 13 Wpt + 3 Wpt, total Wpt from building Wealth and hiring one Merchant becomes 89 Wpt. Assuming no new Cities and no significant Inflation increase, our Research would improve to 40% or 4 Research turns for every 6 Wealth turns.

Privateer War and Work Boats:

Everything else we need to build can be built in Moscow or Yekaterinburg. Note that Work Boats benefit from +100% Hammers provided by Heroic Epic, but they must interrupt other builds to avoid Wealth overflow while building them. The unit built after such an interrupting Work Boat build will gain 34H of overflow, just enough to build a Privateer in just 1t (74 Hpt + 34H OF = 108H). Thus, Yekaterinburg can build Privateer, Work Boat, Privateer, Work Boat, Privateer, Work Boat, Privateer, Work Boat, Privateer, Work Boat, Privateer, Work Boat, producing a naval unit every turn!

Notice how the AIs have stopped building Galleys, have not built Galleons and are building large numbers of Caravels. Privateers eat Caravels with little digestion problems. We could even take out Mao Zedong's stack of three Frigates with a fleet of nine Privateers within striking distance; on the other hand, its easy enough to avoid that stack, but the point is we can take it out with Privateers if Mao's Frigate stack becomes too annoying. We should continue building Privateers as long as the AI fields Galleys, Caravels and Galleons, even if protected by a Frigate. Changes are we will lose a Privateer in each attack on a Frigate, but it will be worth the loss to get the Galleon(s) it is protecting.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 14, 2009, 08:14 PM

G still has hands full, right? I imagine a few more rifles wouldn't go astray.

Yes, Gandhi says he has his hands full in regard to his attacking one of the other AIs.

Fortunately, he doesn't have Horse and consequently no Knights. Thus, he will need a couple turns just to reach St. Petersburg or Novgorod. He has a Galleon in Bombay 11P and a Galleon in Vijayanagara 11P, but they have never left Port.

We probably could build another Frigate in Yekaterinburg and station it in Rostov, but I don't think its necessary until Gandhi has another Galleon in Bombay or completes Chemistry.

Also, building 1-2 Riflemen in Yekaterinburg might be prudent, but we want to appear weak so Gandhi will make the mistake of attacking us and we will quickly build Riflemen/Knights and pillage his lands until nothing is left.

Sun Tzu Wu

BLubmuz

Oct 15, 2009, 03:10 AM

I've ran some test and surely WS will complete long before MI.
I've found Sushi not so useful: it's costly and it has to be spreaded in few selected cities. It's almost useless in Rostov, but great in StPete and Novo. I'll try to post a list of cities. MI is useful provided we spread it after CHs. Also, Medicine opens Ecology, which we need for clean the fallouts.

Why Culdeus posted nothing? If i see nothing in 12 hours i'll take it in charge.

culdeus

Oct 15, 2009, 07:35 AM

Wednesdays are my worst night of the week. Very busy for me. I downloaded the save but haven't looked at it yet in enough detail to fine tune builds and stuff. I have time to do so tonight.

It doesn't appear to be terribly complex to execute as long as nobody gets frisky and declares on us.

culdeus

Oct 15, 2009, 12:28 PM

BLubmuz

Oct 15, 2009, 02:07 PM

I'm testing now, and i share your doubts about Sushi: it's expensive, and its benefits are not so great since it will arrive late. OTOH medicine opens Ecology, much needed to clean the fallouts. Let's say that we can pop the GM, then backfill to it, but we need to prioritize the main path to nukes.

Another thing i'm almost sure is that once we start spread Mining Inc (i mean when the 3rd city will have it) we *must* revolt to FM. Aside the +1 TR/city (some 4 gpt/city) it cuts the Corps maintenance by 25%.

I'm looking at the best way to do so.

Another thing i'm sure is that we must stop settlers with the one currently on route.
Only to grab a resource we now can't see (oil or uranium) we can settle another city.

Who will win this game needs research, at least until Ecology, Radio and Industrialism, then hammers.

No doubt that the circum bonus will help a lot. I was sure before to see the starting save.

Go on with your PPP, before play i'll post also a strategy plan and some hints on how to use units.

culdeus

Oct 15, 2009, 02:17 PM

To play devil's advocate about ecology I'd gamble that assembly line may be more effective. Marines on transports following a nuke blast make extremely quick work of AI cities. I've never played games much past getting to manhattan project straight. I've world built some stuff beyond that to see the mechanics of things. I'd like to see just how horrific it is dealing with the fallout. My hunch is if the invasions are fast enough it won't matter and the winning teams won't cleanup one tile. If someone has a clean game up to the T260 that hasn't been played as fast as possible I'd like to see it.

I mean there should be absolutely no need to utilize the AI cities at all for anything.

greatbeyond

Oct 15, 2009, 03:59 PM

The only thing we'll need the AI cities for is the money we pillage from them. Clean up will go slow, so we want to concentrate on only those cities that are worth the effort. Surely we'll want to clean up G's land.

BLubmuz

Oct 15, 2009, 04:15 PM

Radio even before AL: we nees subs and guided missiles!
Cleaning fallouts requires 6 turns and do it fast avoid "radioactive clouds", not so pleasant.
We must be care, since a GS will bulb Ecology if you don't know Radio, satellites if you do.

In my tests, WS needed some 9 turns, then i built the IW in 10. With Mining Inc, the Manhattan needed 8 turns. I even managed to trade for Demo with poor Churchill almost slaughtered by dG and to build the SoL in 9 turns during a GAge (10 turns) and to revolt to FM, with great benefit to research.

G offered SM for RP, so i think it's worth switch now on SM to afford the trade (and spare a GS for Physics). Provided the actual game works similarly to the test. But i bet so, G's moves are always predictable. BTW he never attacked, but this means nothing.

I think that our strategy will be attack G with almost the bare minimum forces, regroup then prepare the more complicated oversea wars. 3 ICBM and 3 Tacs did the main job on his units.

culdeus

Oct 15, 2009, 07:20 PM

copied from prior ppp. Still need to review save and logs. Will be editing this thru the day so no comments yet.

ppp (t157-169)
research: Steel (18 currently)
great person: 11 turns till likely gs in rostov

trade:
demands: Refuse all technology; refuse stop trading; accept resource and cancel in 10t;

moscow:
building settler. Next build rifle then wealth until wall street is available to build.

st. Petersburg:
bank in 6 then perhaps grocer to counter green faces plus slight wealth boost.

novgorod:
bank 23t = 13t + 10t next ts +6h of. build wealth?

rostov:
bank 13t = 11t + 2t next ts +5h of. wealth?

yaroslavl':
bank 21t = 12t + 9t next ts +4h of. wealth?

yekaterinburg:
privateer in 1 then bank then alternate privateer and frigates. Would consider harbor here.

yakutsk:
university 27t = 12t + 15t in following 2 tss +0h of.

vladivostok:
library 41t = 13t + some t in next ts with higher hammer rate; next university.

smolensk:
courthouse +32t = 13t + 19t in the next 2 tss.

workers:
use discretion to improve tiles with lean to hammer tiles. Get workers in position to move to new city sites via galleys where applicable. Did not make note of any particular thing to address.

military units:
great general promotes to super medic either mace or knight. Always more inclined to promote horse troop to medic.
Knights pillage primarily cottages and capture workers.
Privateers protect all labeled city sites first and all marked (and not labeled) city sites second. While protecting, destroy as many ai galleys, caravels and galleons (if any) as possible.
Use medic 2 frigate to heal privateers.
Consider upgrading caravels to frigates (not likely).
Also try to get some privateers up and to the east of roosevelt.

12345

Sun Tzu Wu

Oct 15, 2009, 07:37 PM

Maybe I've got some unfounded fears, but I do wonder that pushing hard for sushi and burning ?5? great people in the process will pay off less than using those for golden ages to complete the manhattan project while pumping an invasion force of some consequence on the lighter production cities.

It's taking longer to generate Great People, but the Strategy of bulbing Scientific Method, Physics, Biology while Researching Steel -> Railroad -> Combustion and Researching Medicine is very sound. Followed by founding Mining, Inc and Sid's Sushi in Moscow, bulbing Electricity and Fission while Researching Combustion -> Flight -> Rocketry should go smoothly.

I mean if we really needed to research as if we were doing a space race then sushi may payoff, but the limiting factor here is going to be hammers, not wealth. We will start to rake in the coins as we take over the AI cities.

We could use some Wealth now, far more than we could Build, to maintain at least a 70% Research rate = 7 Research turns per 3 Wealth turns.

After seeing how SGOTM9 was won with people doing 5,6,7 stacked golden ages on top of each other I wonder if that's how this one will get won.

We may find out at the end.

That being said having the circumnav bonus may be the hidden thing in our favor here. Certainly other teams got a jump on the score as a result of not burning hammers on a caravel, but the privateer stuff and soon the invasion will be much sped up as a result. I just wish there was a way to get to assembly line, but one can't have everything.

The Circumnavigation Bonus has already been a huge bonus for us, especially for our Privateer War which is far from over. We need to continue building Privateers for as long as they continue to sink AI shipping!

I'm testing now, and i share your doubts about Sushi: it's expensive, and its benefits are not so great since it will arrive late. OTOH medicine opens Ecology, much needed to clean the fallouts. Let's say that we can pop the GM, then backfill to it, but we need to prioritize the main path to nukes.

Please post your starting save, so other members can do some testing too. Maybe someone will think of something that you have overlooked? Or combine some synergic Game elements that gives us a Gain somewhat greater than their Sum.

I have no doubts about Sid's Sushi, but I have grave concerns about the number of Cities and the timing of when they should be founded. Most of our Cities should have been founded after both Sid's Sushi and Mining, Inc.

It was a huge mistake to put all our Hammers into Settlers when at least 50% should have been put into Privateer fleet. We should have about 16-20 Privateers in our fleet right now.

Another thing i'm almost sure is that once we start spread Mining Inc (i mean when the 3rd city will have it) we *must* revolt to FM. Aside the +1 TR/city (some 4 gpt/city) it cuts the Corps maintenance by 25%.

I'm looking at the best way to do so.

Free Market is definitely synergistic to Corporations, making them more affordable. Mining, Inc. in a City is far better than the lame Mercantilism Engineer :)

We should also adopt Nationhood with Free Market. Drafting Riflemen is the most efficient way to build up huge numbers of them over time. 3 Rifleman per turn at the cost of just 1 Pop and 3 Unhappiness in any City with Pop 6 and preferably with at least 3 excess Happiness each. The Population grows back extremely fast with Sid's Sushi. Plus Cities below Pop 6 quickly grow to Pop 6 via Sid's Sushi. Nationhood also provides 2 Happiness for a Barracks and +25% Espionage bonus.

Another thing i'm sure is that we must stop settlers with the one currently on route.
Only to grab a resource we now can't see (oil or uranium) we can settle another city.

I strongly suggest that we continue building Settlers and position them on Islands with Sid's Sushi and Mining, Inc. Resources. We can delay settling them until we can afford the maintenance costs.

Who will win this game needs research, at least until Ecology, Radio and Industrialism, then hammers.

We also need more Hammers now. Everything is being built too slow. However, we need huge amount of Commerce for Wealth; not just Research; the more Wealth we produce, the faster we can Research. Building Wealth will play a large role in whether we can Research to Rocketry very fast.

To play devil's advocate about ecology I'd gamble that assembly line may be more effective. Marines on transports following a nuke blast make extremely quick work of AI cities. I've never played games much past getting to manhattan project straight. I've world built some stuff beyond that to see the mechanics of things. I'd like to see just how horrific it is dealing with the fallout. My hunch is if the invasions are fast enough it won't matter and the winning teams won't cleanup one tile. If someone has a clean game up to the T260 that hasn't been played as fast as possible I'd like to see it.

I mean there should be absolutely no need to utilize the AI cities at all for anything.

Marines require Industrialism which is probably what we will research right after Assembly Line. Tanks can be even more effective than Marines with sufficient City Raider promotions despite the lack of the Amphibious promotion.

We just need to hold the AI Cities we capture. We can expect only the first half of the captured AI Cities to help build additional units and Commerce.

The only thing we'll need the AI cities for is the money we pillage from them. Clean up will go slow, so we want to concentrate on only those cities that are worth the effort. Surely we'll want to clean up G's land.

The Wealth captured with Cities will definitely be significant and will help us maintain our War Economy.

We should plan to clean up all Cities, as soon as we have Ecology.

Radio even before AL: we need subs and guided missiles!
Cleaning fallouts requires 6 turns and do it fast avoid "radioactive clouds", not so pleasant.
We must be care, since a GS will bulb Ecology if you don't know Radio, satellites if you do.

Yes, Radio before Assembly Line has priority for building Submarines.

Generating the last 5 Great Scientists to bulb Flight (2 GSs) and Ecology (3 GSs) will take a very long time and it may be quicker to bulb just 3 GSs (1-2 for Flight and 2-1 for Ecology) and Research what's left to do.

In my tests, WS needed some 9 turns, then i built the IW in 10. With Mining Inc, the Manhattan needed 8 turns. I even managed to trade for Demo with poor Churchill almost slaughtered by dG and to build the SoL in 9 turns during a GAge (10 turns) and to revolt to FM, with great benefit to research.

In a previous post, I stated that we can start Wall Street in turn 162 and complete it on turn 171 (9 turns), showing how I calculated it via Bureaucracy, Industrious trait and Forge.

It's nice to know that Iron Works and especially The Manhattan Project can be built so quickly!

Is the Statue of Liberty worth building on our Continent which has only 5 Cities, not counting any of Gandhi's which number also only 5 Cities? Maybe it could be built on the Main Continent in the first City captured there. It could help with Culture, but Sid's Sushi provides far more Culture.

G offered SM for RP, so i think it's worth switch now on SM to afford the trade (and spare a GS for Physics). Provided the actual game works similarly to the test. But i bet so, G's moves are always predictable. BTW he never attacked, but this means nothing.

Maybe, but I really don't like giving up Replaceable Parts for a Technology that we could nearly complete with a single Great Scientist bulb. I really don't like this trade; as soon as its done, Gandhi will research Rifling and when he completes it, we may be in trouble.

I think that our strategy will be attack G with almost the bare minimum forces, regroup then prepare the more complicated oversea wars. 3 ICBM and 3 Tacs did the main job on his units.

I still don't like building ICBMs.

Why can't we simply rebase Tactical Nukes when we capture Gandhi's three Cities that are reachable from our Cities or well placed Forts? Then the last two cities on his Continent can be hit by Tactical Nukes and captured. We can sabotage/destroy his Roads with Spies, Fighters or Missiles, so he can't quickly reinforce a Nuked City

We can even generate a Great Artist, capture Delhi, use the Great Artist to Great a Great Work, immediately ending disorder and adding 6000 Culture. The City becomes immediately productive, minus the Fallout Areas.

Finally, to make the most of both Mining, Inc. and Sid's Sushi, we must acquire the maximum possible of both Mining, Inc. and Sid's Sushi's Resources. We can not stop at 13 Cities; we need at least 5 more Cities, but delay them so our Economy recovers. Again, I'm certain that eventually building Wealth in Rostov (now), St. Petersburg (3t), Novgorod (6t) and Yaroslavl' (6t) will be part of the solution to keeping our Research rate relatively fast while our Economy recovers.

Sun Tzu Wu