This thread intends to contain the relevant information about RFCE centered in the Iberian peninsula and offer suggestions to improve the mod in that respect.

Let's recapitulate. As of Alpha 6 version (July 31, 2009):

Cordoba
Start in 712.
The power of Medicine: all units start with Medic I promotion.
Leader: Abd-ar-Rahman III.
Wonders present in the mod: la Mezquita (Great Mosque of Cordoba), the Alhambra, Gardens of Al-Andalus (Generalife).
UHV:
Make Cordoba the largest city in the world in 1000.
Build la Mezquita, the Alhambra and Gardens of Al-Andalus by 1300.
Control 4 cities in Iberia and 4 in northwestern Africa in 1490.

UU:
Berber Cavalry (replaces Lancer): +1 movement, 50% retire probability instead of 20%, no flank attack.

UB:
Noria (replaces Granary): +5% :hammers:.
Spain
Start in 909.
The power of the Inquisition: No instability from religious prosecution, +2 :espionage: (espionage points) for each city.
Leader: Isabella.
Wonders present: Magellan's Voyage, Escorial Palace (plus the Cordoban ones, obviously).
Colonies present: Cuba, Aztec Conquest, Inca Conquest, Hispaniola, Panama, Philippines.
UHV:
Unite the whole Iberia (through conquest or vassalage) under catholicism (no other religion in any city) in 1600.
Build 6 colonial projects.
Control 4 cities total in North Africa/Italy/Sicily/Corsica/Sardinia.

UU:
Tercio (replaces Musketman): 11 strength, +50% vs Heavy Cavalry.

UB:
Citadel (replaces Castle): +5 xp points for siege weapons, as in BtS.
Portugal
Start in 1100.
The power of Discovery: colonial projects are 40% cheaper to build.
Leader: Joao.
Wonders present: Palacio da Pena, Bélem Tower.
Colonies present: East Africa, Gold Coast, Brazil, East Indies (shared with the Netherlands), Indian and Chinese trading posts.
UHV:

Build 3 cities on islands of the Atlantic ocean and 2 in North-west Africa.
Do not lose a city before 1640.
Build 6 colonial projects.


UU:
Knight of Aviz (replaces Maceman): +50% city defense, +25% vs polearm, costs 80 instead of 70.

UB:
Feitoria (replaces Customs House): +1 :commerce: in water tiles.
Historical context

Reconquista: After being conquered almost entirely by the Umayyad Caliphate beginning in 711, the Iberian peninsula endured what we know as Reconquista until 1492, when the last moorish kingdom (Granada) was subdued by the then recently unified Kingdom of Castille and Aragon (technically Spain). During that time, the spanish independent kingdoms fighted between them and with the moors, gradually "reconquering" the peninsula from the latter.
Al-Andalus: The Umayyad Caliphate collapsed in 750 (it was the last muslim unified empire). Its heirs retreated to Cordoba to found what we know as the Cordoba Emirate/Caliphate. Muslims refered geographically to the whole peninsula as Al-Andalus. Cordoba would later collapse into a series of small independent muslim kingdoms (Taifas).
Spain and Portugal: by the end of the Middle Ages, the Iberian peninsula had been consolidated in three main kingdoms: Castille-Leon, Portugal (spawned in 1100 from Leon) and Aragon. The former and the latter united with the marriage of Isabella and Fernando (the "Catholic Monarchs"). They would conquer Granada and later Navarra (small independent) to form Spain (though Castille and Aragon were still legally two separate kingdoms under the same king). Portugal would be incorporated into Spain briefly between 1580 and 1640.
Spanish Inquisition: the Inquisition was introduced for the first time to Spain in 1478. It would prosecute and condemn to death baptised catholics considered heretic until 1834, apart from repressing and later expulsing from the kingdom jews (1492) and moriscos (converts from Islam suspected to keep their old faith, 1609).
The Discovery: portuguese navigators began to explore the African west coast in the 1400s. They would even reach India and stablish colonies in the coastline. But it was Christopher Columbus who "discovered" America in 1492 and claimed it for Spain, which in succesive years would form a huge colonial empire (including the conquest of Aztec and Incan empires). Portugal would add Brazil to its colonies starting in 1500.
Spanish Empire in Europe: the newly formed Spain would soon take its way into Italy in the early 1500s, and unite with the Duchy of Burgundy (including the Netherlands, rebelled in 1580) and the Austrian Kingdom under the person of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. Austria would separate after his death but still be in a close dinastical alliance, mostly against France, the great spanish enemy until 1714. Spain was present in all major western and central european wars (mainly of religious nature against protestant forces) with its unmatched tercios, unbeaten until 1643. That decade would begin the empire's decline. In a way, Spain was the first global superpower.

Main suggestions for the next Alpha

Noria (Cordoban UB): +2 or +3 :hammers: instead of +5%.

(this post changes over time)

I would make a suggestion for the Cordoban UB. IMO +5% :hammers: is too weak in the begin and too strong at the end. So I propose to change it to +2:hammers: or +3:hammers:.

Cordoba has a 200 % production cost multiplier for troops and buildings, 195 % is all the time just a joke.

gc.setProductionModifiers(iBulgaria, 150, 100, 100, 380 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iCordoba, 200, 200, 100, 440 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iSpain, 100, 100, 100, 242 )

+2 or +3 would make Cordoba much much stronger.

bye Myri

The main problem for Cordoba is early instability, as I said in the other thread. It can't open borders with most civs and becomes unstable when Spain spawns and declares war. Usually it loses Valencia to revolt. That's historical nonsense. It's Golden Age lasted at least up the fall of the Caliphate in 1031. It should be very playable up to 1300 if you're going to have any chance of 3 UHVs esp. building 8 cities without them going into revolt all the time. How is that we make Cordoba collapse when Burgundy and Kiev not only survive but are a powerhouses in the late game? Thats just crazy.:crazyeye:

Although it probably has been suggested before, why not make the Noria provide a solid +2:hammers: bonus instead of +5%:hammers: bonus like it does currently? That's an easy change and it won't make the production in Cordoba develop at such a slow pace. Also, founding new cities would be so much less frustrating.

I agree with Myri. Relative values are dealt with in the RFCE Balance file, and should be avoided in other civilization unique things, because they contradict each other. While this might not be entirely true for UBs, since it is the player's choice to decide to build it or not, it is true for some UPs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Poland doesn't have much use from it's UP when their research rate is slowed down in the balance file; and happiness values are also unique for each civ, aren't they?

Happyness seems to be the same for all civs, so +1 happyness helps Poland but the research is actutally -10 %.

Cordoba has to be a little less stable than others or it gets HUGE. In alpha 6 it's a little more of a stability problem to convert to islam because Arabia is most likely orthodox. No other issue than the bug 3Miro already is working on.

bye Myri

Well, I also don't see much benefit from the Noria.

My idea: make it give all units built in the city the Medic I promotion (current UP), and change the UP to something a little more... fitting.

I'd give Cordoba the Tolerance power if Hungary/Magyars didn't have it already.

Edit:

Also, this is a minor thing and probably not important enough, but it hurts my eyes to see Charles V as the Burgundian leader, as he is most well known as the HRE and "Spanish" Emperor. He'd be a perfect second leader for Spain in the same way it works in RFC with multiple leaders.

For Burgundy I'd propose Philip the Good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Good

Woo! We got our own thread! :D
I too have already said something about Charles, I propose cutting out burgundy, (because let's face it, they never really did anything) putting an Indy at Lyon, and putting in Savoy as a new later civ. It would curb Frances expansion and they were a lot more significant than burgundy.
I also support changing the Noria to +3 hammers.

I like Burgundy. Just not Charles V as its leader, nor seeing the civ survive into the late game.

I like Burgundy. Just not Charles V as its leader, nor seeing the civ survive into the late game.

I agree with you. And other leaders have been suggested for Burgundy but we haven't found suitable art for them yet. I'd go with Philip the Bold or Richard the Justiciar.

I personally prefer Philip the Good:

His court was regarded as the most splendid in Europe, and became the accepted leader of taste and fashion, which probably helped the Burgundian economy considerably, as Burgundian (usually Netherlandish) luxury products became sought by the elites of other parts of Europe. During his reign, for example, the richest English commissioners of illuminated manuscripts moved away from English and Parisian products to those of the Netherlands, as did other foreign buyers. Philip himself is estimated to have added six hundred manuscripts to the ducal collection, making him by a considerable margin the most important patron of the period.[2]

I personally prefer Philip the Good:

Ya. I always mix those two up. So good is better than bold, then?:mischief:

Ok, I can live with Burgundy, but since you are all making references to leaders such as Phillip the Good, Phillip the Bold, and Richard the Justiciar, I'm going to assume that we're talking about the DUCHY of Burgundy and not the KINGDOM of Burgundy. Right now in the game, I think we have a mix between the two. If we're going to use the Duchy then:

-The spawn should be in Dijon in 880, the beginning of the reign of the first Duke, Richard.
-Cisjurania and Provence (From Lyon down to to Marseilles and the coast) should be taken out of the settler map, as these were territories of the Kingdom of Burgundy.
-The settler map should be from the fat cross of Dijon up to the fat cross of Amsterdam, then West encompassing Flanders, going as far as Calais and Boulogne. It would look like a big tall rectangle leaving a gap in the Champagne region, if I could find a map... here. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Karte_Haus_Burgund_4_EN.png
-The territorial UHV would have to be modified to exclude the territories adjacent to the Mediterranean.
-They should start to get some pretty bad instability in mid-1400's.

Yeah, I had proposed to delay Burgundy's spawn after the split of the Frankish empire to reflect the 2nd Burgundy. I don't agree about stability hits after certain dates though.

Only for the AI though. Human should get to play as long as he wants, it's just painful to see Burgundy last into the late game when it's not your own fault.

Another thing: the +2 espionage points in Spain's UP isn't interesting enough (and if I'm not mistaken, doesn't even work by now).

I've seen the AI use very few spies, and myself none at all, as the techs become increasingly expensive, much more than your esp. points.

What about +2 extra faith points for incorporating catholicism and/or religious prosecution instead?

Ya I've always thought their UHV was a bit lame..

What do you all think about the proposed Burgundy changes?

Ya I've always thought their UHV was a bit lame..

What do you all think about the proposed Burgundy changes?

No need for any new Burgundy changes IMO.

Except a better LH and make sure they're nerfed a bit and not game leaders at the end of the mod, of course.

But are we doing the Kingdom or Duchy of Burgundy? :confused:

But are we doing the Kingdom or Duchy of Burgundy? :confused:

The Duchy AFAIK. Which means a later start I guess. 880 has been suggested.

Always assumed it was the Duchy in RFCE, though with the Kingdom spawn date.

After all, save for controlling Marseilles, the UHV is clearly Duchy-oriented.

Always assumed it was the Duchy in RFCE, though with the Kingdom spawn date.

After all, save for controlling Marseilles, the UHV is clearly Duchy-oriented.

Yes. This was all discusssed somewhere back in the mists of time.:lol:
I think the outcome was much as you describe. Though I'd be in favour of a later start date to weaken it a bit and give France an edge before the DOW.

Always assumed it was the Duchy in RFCE, though with the Kingdom spawn date.

After all, save for controlling Marseilles, the UHV is clearly Duchy-oriented.

When I was a child, I thought the English term "Duchy" meant that a region was under Dutch ownership.
Later on I realized what a foolish misunderstanding that was.

So change the spawn date and take Marseilles out of the UHV and settler map seems to be the logical next step... right?

@Cethegus: :lol:

So change the spawn date and take Marseilles out of the UHV and settler map seems to be the logical next step... right?

@Cethegus: :lol:

However, any changes will have to wait a few weeks. See my post on the didcussion thread.

OK. I see you read that. You're just too fast, even for my edits.:lol:

However, any changes will have to wait a few weeks. See my post on the didcussion thread.

OK. I see you read that. You're just too fast, even for my edits.:lol:

I know, just looking for the consensus

I know, just looking for the consensus

You've got it. On this one, anyway.:mischief:

Which would be...? :confused:

Which would be...? :confused:


The changes to Burgundy.

So, is there any interest in changing Spain's UP?

Yes, the current one is quite lame, although I do feel it should still have something to do with the Inquisition/Catholicism. Maybe a mix of faith points and espionage would the trick.

While working on the Spanish map I realized that indy Pamplona needs moving 1E. Your opinion on that?

While working on the Spanish map I realized that indy Pamplona needs moving 1E. Your opinion on that?

No objections. When playing an Iberian civ, I typically raze Pamplona and move it 2E 1S - but then, I'm a perfectionist. It would be a considerably better city (and more accurate placement) if it were 1E of its current spot.

For that reason do not add the Realms of Aragon (Catalonia) and Navarra (Euskal Herria)?

Edit: There is some relation between the fact that you are Andalusian and your historical region (Kingdom of Granada) if it is added? :P

I can understand that of Navarre is considered to be a simply independent civilization, and that Castile and León directly appear like Spain (something that does not correspond with the historical reality), which really I do not understand is that Catalonia's County is not added...

For that reason do not add the Realms of Aragon (Catalonia) and Navarra (Euskal Herria)?

Edit: There is some relation between the fact that you are Andalusian and your historical region (Kingdom of Granada) if it is added? :P

I can understand that of Navarre is considered to be a simply independent civilization, and that Castile and León directly appear like Spain (something that does not correspond with the historical reality), which really I do not understand is that Catalonia's County is not added...

For the same reason Serbia, Scotland, the Mamlukes, Lithuania, etc. (all at least as significant as Catalonia/Aragon) are not in the game--it's just too many civilizations. And Aragon is substantially represented by the Spanish as well through the Mediterranean cities UHV anyway.

I think if there's going to be any civ added it'll be Prussia, and Germany will be changed to represent the HRE states.
3Miro do you think it's reasonable to hope for the addition of Prussia before the Beta?

I think if there's going to be any civ added it'll be Prussia, and Germany will be changed to represent the HRE states.
3Miro do you think it's reasonable to hope for the addition of Prussia before the Beta?

I don't think we will see any more nations added. There should be pretty universal support for it at this point.

A nation needs: Leaderhead, UU, UB, UP, UHV, spawn date, normal and core regions, city name map, settler and war maps, balancing modifiers for tech rate, production and growth, research, etc ..... All of this needs code, not just ideas.

Yes I can see what you mean but to me it seems that the German region feels just... lacking in development. Of course ATM Germany has a tough time with the barbs and all (though I think it's been fixed in the latest versions). But besides that Germany just feels weird. Cutting Germany into HRE and Prussia would make it much more interesting with conflicts and the likes.

I'm sorry to disagree with such important things like Wonders and UHVs, I know it takes alot of work to create the graphics and code it in. Nonetheless I think the Generalife (gardens of Alhambra) are just not that special to consider being called a Wonder.

Generally speaking the greatest architectural achievements of Moorish Spain are the Mezquita de Cordoba, the Alhambra and then the Giralda of Sevilla. The list could go on to include the synagogues of Toledo or the Torre de Oro of Sevilla. In any case the Generalife is only considered special in conjunction with and included in the Alhambra Palace complex.

I would recommend changing it or to the Giralda, (which is the minaret of the old Friday Mosque) or the Torre de Oro (which was a guard tower connected to the city walls, which protected the port on the river) both in Sevilla.

The Giralda could give additional line of sight (it was one of the tallest buildings of the time) and the Torre de Oro could give extra defense or extra trade/money.

Just a thought.

Yes I can see what you mean but to me it seems that the German region feels just... lacking in development. Of course ATM Germany has a tough time with the barbs and all (though I think it's been fixed in the latest versions). But besides that Germany just feels weird. Cutting Germany into HRE and Prussia would make it much more interesting with conflicts and the likes.
I have to agree with this one: the game would get a huge value by having separated HRE and Prussia.
It will be a pain to implement: new graphic, new scripts, new maps (settlers, war, etc), and a complete new balancing needed for the neighbor Civs (especially Austria and Poland... but the de-stabilization coming with Prussia could have a huge cascade effect in all east and Balkans).

However it would be great in terms of gameplay and historical accuracy.
Germany could be now the HRE with more accurate UHV conditions.... the UHV could ask the HRE to control North Italy (Milan, Genoa, Florence) and the Burgundian lands (including Marseilles).
That could make a very interesting challenge, and help to reproduce the historical disappearance of Duchy of Burgundy. :)

I think there is a general misunderstanding of what "The Gardens of Al Andalus" Wonder is supposed to represent. As the person who suggested it in the early development of this mod I think I should explain. Despite the graphic, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Generalife gardens of the Alhambra Palace in Granada. The graphic was hastily added at the time and never corrected. The Wonder represents the Arab Agricultural Revolution in Al Andalus in the 9thC-11thC when advanced irrigation and soil sciences were intoduced, along with dozens of new crops, to turn a land of drought and scarcity into a remarkably fertile and rich agricutural area unparalled in most of the world. The graphic itself is misleading and should be replaced by something more appropriate like terraced fields or large water wheels etc..

I'm afraid to say that it's already been set in stone that there will be no more civs added to the game. :(

I think it would be a great idea, except for the fact that Prussia would only have 75 turns to play, if they started at 1700.

I'm afraid to say that it's already been set in stone that there will be no more civs added to the game. :(
Yes, I know it's really HUGE work to add a new Civ. :(


I think it would be a great idea, except for the fact that Prussia would only have 75 turns to play, if they started at 1700.
In 1618 the union of Brandenburg and the Duchy of Prussia led to the proclamation of the Kingdom of Prussia in 1701.
We may start Prussia a bit earlier but nevertheless you are right: there will be very few turns to play.

Jessiecat.

I suppose I can accept and respect that as valid Wonder and UHV. In that case you should call the Wonder "Muslim Agricultural Revolution" or "Water Tribunal" since these things occurred in other places at similar times in the Arab world.

About the main topic, on the RFCE beta, there's a big problem with the HUV of Cordoba when playing on monarch. It's mostly impossible to complete the first goal. Except with lot of luck (if Arabia take or destroy luxury ressources of Byzance or if the empire suffer a plague), it's impossible to see Cordoba have at least the same pop than Byzance (who generally grow up to 15 vs 12 for the iberian city...).
I could be good to equilibrate the HUV, compare to Cordoba, Venitian's HUV is so easy...
Less important, but still frustrating, the diplomatic malus (?) for Cordoba is insane (in monarch), with the best relationship possible with Arabia, they generally refuse to trade tech or at inaceptable cost...

ps : about Burgundia, it was a great idea to put Carlos Quinto as the leader of this faction (finally he was the greatest emperor of Europe).
It's not hard to vassalize HRE and Austria when they spawn, the only big problem was to make him king of Spain (how to make him the heir of this kingdom ?). It's mostly impossible to see princess in Civ, but there's maybe something to do with the "trading compagnies", Charles Quint was an Augsburg (oops Habsbourg), maybe some script could be done when a city colapse but is tag by a corp, it could flip to the faction of the owner of the compagny instead of indep... by this way, Burgundia could have a most interesting HUV than conquering Jerusalem, something like, control all the Carlos Quinto's empire (Germany, Austria, Spain, Italy, Sicily and of course Flandres !) ;)