Hi everybody!

First of all, I'd like to thank the Legends of Revolution development team for their fantastic work so far.

Now for the main topic. Thanks to the Atlas Map Generator team; the merged mod that allows up to 50 civs on the same map; & all of the improvements, content & extra features LoR has; I'm thinking of making a scenario showcasing an approximate setting of Earth by that date, & I'd like to get suggestions, critiques & advice for it. This is what I've thought on so far...

- Map: 180 X 112 tiles. I'll make the map myself while also accepting & considering tips you may want to propose. I'll also appreciate any reference maps posters may provide.

- Gamespeed: currently deciding between Epic & Marathon.

- Resource distribution: it will definitely be based on the modern one, & I'm also considering unbalancing it to make plausible for really populated countries achieve titanic populations (i.e. having the Ganges-Bhramaputra riverside tiles as grassland floodplains, with some extra grain sources).

- Victory conditions: I'm officially disabling time victory (only superpowers will be able to achieve it, & the game may end soon). I'm not sure if to get rid of cultural victory, since single or few cities won't be able to achieve it by this time (also, superpowers will achieve them anyways with ease). I'm also considering to get rid of space race for the same reasons (yet it's not that bad as culture or time). This only leaves religious, diplomatic, conquest & domination available.

PLAYABLE CIVS (so far, 40 as i visualize it, up to 50): I'm thinking about the following:

- More economic &/or cultural+ethnic groups or more independent countries? Take for instance the European Union. I can either represent them with a single EU civ, with several smaller civs as a team, or with the civs on their own.

- Small yet important countries: take for instance the roles N. Korea & Israel take in today's world interactions. They are most likely to be represented with single city civs due to their size (with their allies merged into single civs), or we could represent them with a single civ encompassing them.


The following are the civs/countries/regions I'm considering to place at the moment. The leader choices I'll make for them will be based on what do those modern countries currently embody. I will include other descriptions of what I want to do with them later on:

1, 2, 3- USA: for their leader, I want some leader that's most likely to love free market & that's pushy (something similar to GW Bush's administration). I'm currently considering Washington, but I'm not sure of how does Raegan behaves like in-game (just got LoR a few days ago). Or we could go a bit more ahead & have Obama as the leader (maybe represented with Lincoln). They will have Israel in their team & Puerto Rico as a vassal (I'd wish we were on the Caribbean team, REALLY BAD!!).

4- Russia: I won't be using Stalin for them, maybe Peter or Lenin could better fit modern Russia.

5- China: their leader must prefer free market, yet want a firm government, just like modern China does. Not sure if to put Mao, Qin or Wang.

6- India: I'm not sure whether to put them as the entire Indian subcontinent, or if to separate them of Pakistan & Bangladesh. If they're united, they'll have the population lead over China.

7- Brazil: they're OK to me as the Portuguese with Joao as their leader. Not sure if to add Paraguay to them (they're close allies & trading partners).

8-20- Europe: Not sure whether to place them as European Union, free Scandinavia (only Norway & Iceland ATM), Balkans & the euro ex URSS countries; to put them as one civ or if to put them as some 13 individual countries. They would be UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Benelux, Germany, Austria+W Balkans+Czecks+Slovaks, Poland + Baltic, Scandinavia, Greece & E Balkans, Rest of E Europe former USSR.

21- Canada: will go on its own, maybe with a British leader, or maybe with the Iroquois.

22- Australia + NZ: most likely to be with a British leader.

23- 1st world East Asia: these are Japan, S. Korea, Singapore & Taiwan/Chinese Taipei (not sure whether to add Singapore, Malaysia & Brunei). Thei will definitely be leaded by Meiji.

24- Mexico: will be Mexico + north half of Central America. I'm doubting Monty will be in-charge here.

25- C. America & Caribbean: will be the southern half of C. America with Jamaica, Hispaniola, Bahamas & the more free lesser Antilles. Not sure whether to include Colombia or the Guyana region (the other alternative would be having them as European terrain). Will probably be led by Pacal or Willem.

26- Andean countries: include Ecuador, Perú & Bolivia. Not sure whether to include Venezuela (having them allied with Cuba & maybe Iran would make more sense in terms of historic context) & Colombia (since it fits in the Caribbean too).

27- Southern Cone: includes Argentina, Uruguay & Chile (not sure if to add Paraguay to them or to Brazil). Not sure of what leader to give them, as well as their civ.

28- Pacific Islands: I'm not sure whether to keep them as colonies of their former lords or if to unify them as a single, independent civ.

29- Saharan Africa: I'm thinking on ecompassing Egypt, Libya, & the Magreb as a single civ, led by Rammesses of Egypt (Carthage doesn't make enough sense, since that region is more arabic than phoenician nowadays).

30- West Africa: I'm thinking to use Mali, not sure if to let Mansa lead them (they're not a highly advanced region yet, although they're not as poor as Central & Central South Africa).

31- Horn of Africa & E. Africa: Ehtiopia, maybe led by Zara Yaqob. They won't have Somalia as part of them (barbs would be ideal for the pirates of the region). Not sure if to add Yemen to them, or if to leave it for Arabia (Yemen was at some points part of the Ethiopian domains).

32- South Africa: Zululand with Shaka. They'll rule everything south of the Congo jungle.

33- Arab Peninsula: will include Saudi Arabia, Bahrein, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar & Jordan, led by Saladin. Not sure if to include Yemen for them, or if to add it to Africa.

34- Communist SE Asia: led by Vietnam, will have Vietnam, Myanmar & Laos (they fit better with them than with Capitalist SE Asia to me).

35- Capitalist SE Asia: led by Suryavarman of Cambodia, it will encompass Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, Philipines & East Timor. Not sure if to let them have Malaysia, Brunei & Singapore.

36- Anti USA Middle East: includes Iran & Syria, will be Persia (we need a real warmonger here, perhaps Monty would be appropiate).

37- Turkey & the Caucassus: will be Turkey (with the modern Turk leader), Georgia, Armenia & Azerbaijan.

38- C. Asia: will include Mongolia & the rest of the full Asian ex USSR countries. Led by the Mongolian civ (not sure if to use a Mongol leader, or an older Turk).

39- N. Korea: not sure it to put them on their own or if to ally them to Communist SE Asia. If alone, will be led by Toku (isolationist) or Hirohito (overall militaristic).

40- Venezuela + Cuba: these 2 countries are close allies, & their governments aren't USA friendly. Maybe putting them with Mao in charge would be a good setting.

Sounds like a cool idea. I've given this some thought myself, but never put it in the works because I'm not really that into scenario creation, and it seems like quite a bit of work in itself. The issues I've thought of are similar to the thoughts you've had, it's difficult to express the current political structure of earth which is seperated into over 200+ independent nations with the civ engine. Of course you could go all out and make a 200 Civ dll, or possibly get away with a decent aproximation with a 100 civ version, and use the myriad of leaderheads and what not available, and make a seperate mod with LoR as a base template, but that would be alot of work to do.

I don't want to include TOO many countries (38-50 are sufficient for me) beacuse of the following:

- Almost all smaller countries either will have little-to-no chance at winning, therefore making the scenario pretty unbalanced. Only the more developed &/or more intertationally important countries are showcased. No inland microstates will be placed, since they're way smaller than a Civ IV map tile. Also, small countries are better represented in regional, economic &/or ethnic groups.

- Running a map with 200+ countries is simply too heavy for almost all consumer available computers.

- I'm an amateur scenario maker, not a pro.

- The scenario map isn't THAT big (a 400 x 400 map is simply insane).

- The scenario concept is already really complex, complicated & big.

Nonetheless, I appreciate your feedback, Phungus.

Actually I'd think having a 200 country game with some countries being extremely small would be cool. It would allow players to play as those very small countries and see how far they can get with them. You may be familiar with Paradox-made games like Europa Universalis or Crusader Kings. Personally, I've always found it interesting just to see how well I can do with a small country. Several people on the Paradox forums do the same, and some have managed to achieve world conquest when starting as a one-province country, which is impressive. However, indeed, almost no computer would run such a game. My computer cannot even play the standard Earth map because it has too many Civilizations :/.

What you have sounds great! I'm curious how technologies would work, though. I mean, with the game starting in the year 2000 most of the civilizations will be near the end of the tech tree. Will the tech tree be lengthened at all, or possibly the remaining technologies lengthened so as to extend the technology tree's remaining life span?

And yes, I definitely would agree with disabling space and time victories.

Also, you may want to consider something like an across-the-board diplomacy penalty if you declare war on any country to reflect a more modern world. Like in this scenario, with the game's default settings, there is really nothing stopping America from just declaring war on and crushing everybody... but in a realistic sense, that would be seen as unethical and tyrannical. For example, in Europa Universalis, while you're free to go around declaring war on and crushing whomever you please, this lowers your reputation. Eventually, if you continue the trend, just about every country in the world will end up declaring war on you to put an end to your madness. I don't know if you'd be able to implement a system like this, though, but if so, I think it would really help to portray the realism of the modern world.

What you have sounds great! I'm curious how technologies would work, though. I mean, with the game starting in the year 2000 most of the civilizations will be near the end of the tech tree. Will the tech tree be lengthened at all, or possibly the remaining technologies lengthened so as to extend the technology tree's remaining life span?

And yes, I definitely would agree with disabling space and time victories.

Also, you may want to consider something like an across-the-board diplomacy penalty if you declare war on any country to reflect a more modern world. Like in this scenario, with the game's default settings, there is really nothing stopping America from just declaring war on and crushing everybody... but in a realistic sense, that would be seen as unethical and tyrannical. For example, in Europa Universalis, while you're free to go around declaring war on and crushing whomever you please, this lowers your reputation. Eventually, if you continue the trend, just about every country in the world will end up declaring war on you to put an end to your madness. I don't know if you'd be able to implement a system like this, though, but if so, I think it would really help to portray the realism of the modern world.
Well, there's a way to reflect major penalties for warring against tiny countries. If you've messed with the World Builder, you would notice that you can adjust some of the diplomatic stuff (i.e. how well or bad civs get along, who's the vassal of whom). We could also give small countries advantages similar to 'One City Challenge'- like privileges: starting location saturated with resources & good terrain, have those cities with more than 2 national wonders, give them cathedrals from the beginning & grant them a big military early on (instead of 3-4 units per city, think 10-15 units per city).

OK, I officially decided this scenario to be on Marathon speed (100 turns from 2000 AD to 2050 AD is too short, even with all the micromanagement big empires will need, & that's in Epic).