OK, so a debate is raging about what to do with the map.

A 53 civ dll is proving difficult if not impossibel to create, there is however a working 48civ and 50 civ dll that we could use.

We essentially have 2 options:

- Cut 3-5 minor civs (e.g. Belarus), use existing xml for UUs, UBs etc. Otherwise continue with existing map

- Redesign the map and redo some xml. (See Matty's map)

I therefore propose we vote, quickly and move on with getting this mod completed ASAP with our hold up out of the way.

For what it's worth, the work done with the old civs and map was relatively little, and what was useful is easily salvageable. I've voted option B, and it's better to make it more fun at this (relatively) early stage than to realise that the civs we've cut out have unbalanced it beyond belief and it's dull to play.

This sounds totalitarian, I know, but whatever the votes say, we're going with the second option. If anyone has any issues with this, please send me a PM and I'll answer any questions.

NikNaks, I think pretty much everyone will have issues with this. So why don't you explain openly the reasons for you to choose a complete map redesign over cutting 3-5 civs?
The way it is handled now will seriously damage the advance of the map:

1) Throwing away work already done in favor of new work to be done.
2) The way it is handled ("whatever the votes say...") won't help much to keep the team together let alone attract new modders. If this now is the way desicions are made and made decisions are knocked over then I'm not up to resume my work with this mod.

NikNaks, I think pretty much everyone will have issues with this. So why don't you explain openly the reasons for you to choose a complete map redesign over cutting 3-5 civs?
The way it is handled now will seriously damage the advance of the map:

1) Throwing away work already done in favor of new work to be done.
2) The way it is handled ("whatever the votes say...") won't help much to keep the team together let alone attract new modders. If this now is the way desicions are made and made decisions are knocked over then I'm not up to resume my work with this mod.

Seconded. Explanation please, because all i'm hearing at the moment is 'balance', despite the fact that:

1) We spent ages on the current map and haven't decided which civs to take off it.
2) We haven't allcoated units, promotions etc yet.
3) Haven't allocated relations, treaties etc
4) Haven't allocated corporations either...

I could go on, but in my experience of GEM, promotions and corporations play a massive role in 'balance', as do all the above and more.

If you know something that we don't then please do tell, but at the moment it's not coming across very well to say the least.

EDIT: Here's my quick plan to cut civs. I don't think this 'unbalances beyond belief':

1) Belarus ----> Russia
2) Sudan -----> Failed States
3) Angola (DR Congo)-----> Minor States OR Mongolia -----> Minor States

This isn't difficult, solves our problem and avoids 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', which is otherwise EXACTLY what is happening. There is no way anyone can seriously argue that the addition of 2 cities in Belarus to Russia is going to unbalance the game or that Sudan or Angola are going to make much difference in failed and minor states either to the game or makeup of Africa. (The aim in Africa was to break it up, and we're still left with 11 civs there so it's still fractured)

Problem solved, merge GEM with revolutions civ dll (50 civ), which has already been done and shown to work twice by GEM modders...

EDIT: @Ianinsane, either is fine. I'm sure we can find either 3 or 5 civs to get rid of without any trouble. One more and we'd have a 48 civ dll solution

i agree with 1+2 but instead of Angola I'd suggest to remove Mongolia which does not play an important role in the world at all. We could either make it minor or split it up between Russia and China.

I think some of you honestly need to take a moment and chill out.

The reason I brought this up, outside of the issue with too many civs, was to enhance gameplay and balance. Otherwise - all we are doing is creating another version of the MaxRiga mod with superpowers galore.

Now that I've fully researched everything, and we can have 50 civs - we can just make a few adjustments. Keeping Canada a standalone civ is good. Mongolia to MinorStates is good. That allows us to open up 2 more civs.

Like NikNaks said (and this is NikNaks mod, to be sure we remember that), there hasn't been enough work done on the map, etc., to warrant an arbitrary "we must use the old way."

Logically - if a new, better way of doing something comes along - there is no reason to stand and fight it. I mean, we could be like Napoleon and scoff at the use of steam engines. But - that wouldn't be so good for us in the long run. It would be completely irrational to completely defy a new twist just because we talked about something at length ages ago.

This map, while maybe a SLIGHT every so small temporary slowdown, will be much better in the long run.

double post

I think some of you honestly need to take a moment and chill out.

The reason I brought this up, outside of the issue with too many civs, was to enhance gameplay and balance. Otherwise - all we are doing is creating another version of the MaxRiga mod with superpowers galore.

Now that I've fully researched everything, and we can have 50 civs - we can just make a few adjustments. Keeping Canada a standalone civ is good. Mongolia to MinorStates is good. That allows us to open up 2 more civs.

Like NikNaks said (and this is NikNaks mod, to be sure we remember that), there hasn't been enough work done on the map, etc., to warrant an arbitrary "we must use the old way."

Logically - if a new, better way of doing something comes along - there is no reason to stand and fight it. I mean, we could be like Napoleon and scoff at the use of steam engines. But - that wouldn't be so good for us in the long run. It would be completely irrational to completely defy a new twist just because we talked about something at length ages ago.

This map, while maybe a SLIGHT every so small temporary slowdown, will be much better in the long run.

The reason so many people are against this is because it is not required and won't make it much better. I don't think it's quite like swapping the horse and cart or whatever for a steam engine. Why? Because you talk about superpowers, but what is the difference in those terms apart from splitting up the EU and creating Asean (admittedly not quite as big)? We do not have lots of arbituary artificial superpowers, everything is representative, the EU included (which is a tough call as it is impossible to truly represent the EU so either way we are either upscaling or downscaling its importance).

People are yet to see any evidence of why this new map is so great and are still waiting. Nice to know that you 'fully researched everything', that must mean your idea is just perfect never mind everybody else's work, opinions, knowledge or votes.

If niknaks wants to do this mod on his own without listening to anyone else then good look to him. May as well scrap the forums then

EDIT re to Matty map work lost: i have a copy of all cities list if this is what's required (think this was published by Kai a while back), and GEM terrain, resources etc is standard for all scenarios.

On top of my above post:

The map work has been lost and doesn't even exist. So, I am currently creating the map because someone needs to devote the time to actually get it done. So, all of this talk of all this work that was done on it - is not true. There is no work done.

No, the actual map placement and all the work that goes into actually putting the cities and building and units on the map and borders, etc.. It doesn't exist. It has to be done from scratch.

So the argument for all of this work. It doesn't even exist. I'm going thru and attempting to get the map done for us all asap.

If you'd like to do it, then feel free to take over and do all of that yourself.

What about the work Genghis did and showed us some screenshots of? In what way is it lost? Genghis deleted it or what?

Have to ask NikNaks. I only know what I know. And I am told that there is zero mapwork done. So, I am working on creating the map for us. We have no map work done, at all. So all this talk about finished map work is not true.

Even if there's no map work done (nevertheless. there are screenshots of done work in the map thread.) still there's the subject of UBs, UUs, leaders. We have all civs covered by now. Creating new civs means creating new work on their UBs, UUs and leaders.

Hmm... I pretty sure Genghis finished the map, he posted pics of it. If we have it, I don't have the slightest idea.

But, I think this poll needs a third option, "Lets keep the current map for now, test it in beta, find out which parts of it are unbalanced/not fun to play, then change it more specifically". I don't think it is really a good idea to completely switch without even testing it. Right now, we're just guessing at whats unbalanced, we don't actually know what is because we haven't tested. The key here is testing. We need to test to find out problems, we can't just guess them by looking at a map and civ lists.

We don't have leaders done, so thats not an issue. We DO NOT HAVE THE MAP. I don't know how much more clearly I can put this. I'm currently speaking with NikNaks on AIM. We don't have it.

"Keep the current map for now" doesn't matter. Because THERE IS NO MAP. We don't have all the leaders, or basically any actually created. We don't have the buildings/units actually done.

All we had was DVS and the group's "ideas" and thoughts. We don't have anything concrete.

We are working, from now, from the start. Getting this done correctly.

What we do have is Civics and technologies. Nothing else, really, actually done.

Then someone should contact Kai, because I would really like to know where he got these pictures:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203258&d=1234233870

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203259&d=1234233870

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203260&d=1234233870

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203261&d=1234233899

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203262&d=1234233899

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203263&d=1234233899

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203264&d=1234233994

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203265&d=1234233994

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203266&d=1234233994

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203267&d=1234234042

We don't have them anymore. Move on...

We have, and we are trying like hell (have been all morning long - 4+ hours working together) to get this up and updated. Been working on the SVN all morning.

We don't have them anymore. Move on...



Well, if we don't have them, I'm pretty sure Kai does. He wouldn't delete what he has put a lot of effort into making. Someone should just PM him for his work, and bam, this entire argument will be over.

NikNaks has done this already, and this is the solution we arrived to with whatever answer there is

You do not have the GEM map? So what are you doing then, just making a new world map? As the GEM took Kai months, so it may take you a while.

What about the city lists to place from (with civs?)

Honestly, this is a bit of a joke. Kai was ready to go with this months ago and was trying to get a dll out of niknaks to place cities on the map he's done many times before. A massive lesson many times over on how not to get the best out of a team, and it appears nothing learnt either.

People have been asking where we are and what's holding us up for ages, (Matty included), and have had vague reassurances. And no, apparently we have 'nothing' but 'ideas' and are starting again, but scrapping all the ideas and just doing what 2 people want.

Seriously I wish you good luck and hope one day to play a great mod that you have made.

No, we are using the Modern Resource start-up world builder save from GEM

And no, I'm not just "arbitrarily" scrapping ideas. I'm doing as much as I can to get this officially, and actually going.

I've been doing SVN and XML work all day. All we do is discuss and discuss and argue and discuss. For a year. We have to get a mod out, so that we can get the help that we need once it is released.

I'm not doing "what I want." I'm actually trying to incorporate everything that has been written. And yes, I am "included" in trying to get this started for months. But sometimes, you just have to grab the bull by the balls and get started.

No, we are using the Modern Resource start-up world builder save from GEM

And no, I'm not just "arbitrarily" scrapping ideas. I'm doing as much as I can to get this officially, and actually going.

I've been doing SVN and XML work all day. All we do is discuss and discuss and argue and discuss. For a year. We have to get a mod out, so that we can get the help that we need once it is released.

I'm not doing "what I want." I'm actually trying to incorporate everything that has been written. And yes, I am "included" in trying to get this started for months. But sometimes, you just have to grab the bull by the balls and get started.

I still don't see what the problem is with going with the civ list that took us ages to come to minus the 3 civs, which most people are voting for.

And i don't care much for your constant linking of this issue to one where people agree with you that a cut is required to get this moving. It is more than possible to take a decision to cut and move on without having to rehash everything based on a new civ list that is:

1) 1/2 days old.

2) That most people don't want.

I'm bored of saying it. If you would rather ignore everyone and do your own thing then go right ahead. I'm pretty convinced you're not listening to anyone anyway.

Make it bigger, we need to keep the game as realistic as we can

Make it bigger, we need to keep the game as realistic as we can

We can't make it bigger than 50 civs. No one knows how to.

We can't make it bigger than 50 civs. No one knows how to.

This is one thing that everyone agrees on.

i agree with 1+2 but instead of Angola I'd suggest to remove Mongolia which does not play an important role in the world at all. We could either make it minor or split it up between Russia and China.

Kai wouldn't like that. Of course, Kai isn't even here anymore, apparently.

I've voted option B, and it's better to make it more fun at this (relatively) early stage than to realise that the civs we've cut out have unbalanced it beyond belief and it's dull to play.


Excuse me, but are you under any real impression that your current plans, which places the nations like the USA and Russia against nations like Taiwan and Israel, is balanced at all? It's not. Changing it may indeed bring inbalance of its own, but considering that's possible inbalance vs. ensured inbalance, it's a fair trade. You aren't making sense.


Logically - if a new, better way of doing something comes along - there is no reason to stand and fight it. I mean, we could be like Napoleon and scoff at the use of steam engines. But - that wouldn't be so good for us in the long run. It would be completely irrational to completely defy a new twist just because we talked about something at length ages ago.

Slow down one second. I'm not sure whether you're advocating going above 50 civs or not, but I must point out one glaring flaw in your logic: None of us is proposing to fight against a new and better way when or if it comes along. In the case that it does, we have no reason to oppose it. However, right now the fact is that your better way hasn't come along, and despite the faith that you and Nik have in it, I don't see either of you proactively working to make it happen, so in the meantime, all you are doing is delaying the mod getting released at all. You can't run before walking, no mod gets everything just-so on its initial release, and in opposing the slight detour from your loftier plans, you're preventing us from doing something that would otherwise allow us and our community to troubleshoot those issues of the mod that aren't recognizeable until someone play-tests it. None of our plans to cut corners for the initial release are going to delay us implementing your new features if you do discover how to make them work, and in fact, you'll have a better finished product if you let us iron out the vast majority of its features right now.