Still work in progress. If you like the general idea, please make suggestions and I will continue to try to expand this and edit good ideas into this original post.
* * * * *
I dislike how religions are currently implemented in this mod. They feel too generic, too unfluffy in some cases (Judaism? 2 flavors of Christianity?) and lack Dune flavor. Besides, while "religion" is a major factor for some factions, it just doesn't make sense as a major motivating factor for other factions; the Harkonnen just aren't that religious.

I propose a major redesign which uses the religion mechanic as more of an Ethos or Value system, rather than just actual religious faith.

IMO the key purposes of the religion mechanic in civ4 are:
a) to encourage factionalism and "holy wars"; you are friendly with your co-religionists and hostile to others
b) to reward founders to get the holy city and those who take the effort to get a great prophet and build a shrine
c) ideally to differentiate religions and add to replay value by making different religions play differently.
d) to add to the feeling of world immersion.

To do this I would completely eliminate the current system;
i) remove all the existing religions, temples, monastaries and cathedrals.
ii) Change the priest city specialist (currently a Truthsayer) to an Adherent, or Believer, and make the Great Prophet a Prophet.
iii) Change the artist city specialist (currently a ghola) to a Noble, and the Great Artist to a Great Noble. Gholas should be some kind of Tleilaxu mechanic.
iv) Rename zensunni teachings tech "mysticism". Remove the way of the believers, religious influence. Merge or eliminate many of the early religious wonders (there are too many) or distribute them over later techs.
v) Add in 5-7 new religions.

Note that the lack of early religion will also (deliberately) make happiness and happiness luxuries more valuable during the early game.
Note that the presence of your state religion in a city will always give +1 happy +1 culture (many of the temple replacements here do not give happy or culture)
Note that the religions can only be founded by or adopted by particular factions. That is, the religion gets founded by (and the holy city placed) by the first faction *from the allowed list* who researches the foundation tech.


1. Landsraad. Alternative names: Galactic Empire, The Great Compact.
Idea: The ethos of preserving the feudal galactic status quo. This is an early game religion that is founded by an early tech and is easy to spread, but can be easily overtaken later by any of the other ideas for change.
Can be founded by or adopted by: the emperor, or any of the main landsraad houses (Atreides, Harkonnen, Ordos, Fenring, Ix, etc.) or Bene Gesserit.
Founded by tech: Imperium
Great shrine: Lansraad council. Adds +2 free noble specialist, +1culture per city with this religion, +1 gold to all noble specialists. Spreads religion. Can be built by great priest, great noble.
Unique buildings: Feudal estate. Gives +1 happy, +2 culture. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to noble.
Fiefdom. Gives +50% culture, +1 happy, +1 happy if Landsraad is state religion, requires 3 feudal estates. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to noble.
Unique units: Diplomat. Standard missionary unit. Requires feudal estate.
Special properties: High spread rate, high spread rate from shrine. This religion is automatically removed from a city whenever any new religion is planted in that city.

2. CHOAM
Idea: ethos of trade, particularly spice. Spice makes CHOAM go around.
Can be founded by or adopted by: the Guild, the emperor, or any of the main landsraad houses (Atreides, Harkonnen, Ordos, Fenring, Ix etc.).
Founded by tech: offworld trade.
Great shrine: CHOAM Headquarters. not actually a shrine, but instead another spice corporation hq (and no executives to spread it), that competes with all the other spice corporations (so you can't have both in the same city). Spreads CHOAM religion (not the same as the corporation). Founded by a great trader or a great priest. Gives +2 trader GPPs.
So this allows you to get a second city that gives +3 commerce per spice resource you control.
Unique units: CHOAM emissary. Standard missionary unit (spreads the religion, not the corporation). Requires CHOAM outpost.
Unique buildings: CHOAM outpost. Gives +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader.
CHOAM Directorate (cathedral replacement). Requires 3 CHOAM outposts. Gives +1 trade route, +50% trade route yield, gives +1 happy from each of the various luxury rade goods (semuta, opafire, etc.)
Allows 2 citizens to be converted to trader.
Special properties: This religion requires creating both a religion (the main component) and a new corporation (which shows up ONLY as the replacement for a holy shrine). Low natural spread rate, low spread rate by shrine, normal price missionaries.

3. Messianism. (Alternative: Way of Muad'Dib)
Idea: Jihadist. Convert the galaxy by the sword.
Founded by: Holy Jihad tech.
Can be founded by or adopted by: Either Fremen faction, Atreides, Bene Gesserit. (The BGs don't really practice it, but if they're the founder then they are manipulating it for their own ends, as Jessica does during Dune).
Great shrine: Dune Messiah (?better name?). Gives -100% war weariness in this city. Gives -25% war weariness empirewide. Gives +10% military production per city with this religion. So the shrine becomes a unit factory powerhouse. Gives +1 priest GPPs.
Unique units: Jihadi. Requires theocracy. Strength 6 melee unit, very cheap on hammers, death does not cause war weariness. Designed to be cannon fodder; lower strength than contemporary units, but able to be fielded in overwhelming numbers.
Unique buildings: Temple of Muad'Dib. +1 happy, +1 culture, +15% military production, +1 unhappy per non-state religion. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest.
Special properties: no missionary unit. Low natural spread rate. High spread rate from shrine. Whenever a civ that has this as its state religion conquers a city, this religion is automatically added to that city.

4. Tleilaxu Supremacy
Idea: Tleilaxu should be apart and separate, with their own theistic faith that they will never share with outsiders. Essentially, this is a religion that can only ever be adopted by 1 civ. Its main purpose is to encourage the 'Otherness' of the Tleilaxu, and the fact that everyone hates and fears them (diplomacy penalty for different religion with every other player).
Can be founded or adopted by: Tleilaxu only. This is the only religion the BTl can adopt.
Founded by tech: mysticism (so you get it in your capital).
Great shrine: Prophecies of Bandalong. +4 culture, +2 free priest, +1 hammer output to priests and great priests in all cities.
Unique units:
Unique buildings: Probly easier to make any relevant buildings just be BTl faction UBs - just make sure that some of them allow citizens to be converted to priests.
Special properties: no missionaries. No automatic spread or spread from shrine The religion is automatically spread to any new city founded by the BTl faction. (Several religions in Warhammer mod work like this, so I know its codeable).
(Issue: can enemy inquisitors remove religions in enemy cities? If so is this a problem, you could kill this religion off. Is there a way to make a particular religion immune to inquisitors? Maybe just add really expensive missionaries?)

5. The Golden Path
Idea: The extreme stability intrinsic in Leto II's great plan. Narrow minded. A late-game religion, it should stunt research and trade but provide a ton of happiness.
Can be adopted by/founded by: anyone except BTl, Guild.
Founded by tech: Some new late-game tech.
Great shrine: ??
Unique units:
Unique buildings: The Golden Path. -25% beakers, -50% trade, +5 happy +5 healthy +10% water. (unsure about this - maybe even more happy, maybe it makes the city immune to unhappiness, or maybe this should be a Cathedral effect).
Special properties: When spread to a city, it instantly eliminates all other religions in that city. Does not have a natural spread rate, is not spread by shrine; missionary only.


6. Way of Shai-Hulad.
Idea: the kind of general animist worm-worship held by the Fremen before Paul, and many of the regular inhabitants of Dune. Basically a weak backup religion for anyone who doesn't have another one, or for players who would rather get a standard gold-shrine religion.
Can be founded/adopted by: anyone except BTl, Guild.
Founded by: sand worms.
Holy shrine: Shrine of the worm. +2 culture. +1 gold per city with this religion present. +2 priest GPPs.
Unique units: Prophet (missionary replacement).
Unique buildings: Arrakian Temple, +1 culture, +1 water. Natives of Arrakis with traditional lifestyle use less water and so have some excess. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest.
Special properties: missionaries more expensive 50% more?, low religion spread rate. This is an inferior religion. Shai-Hulad doesn't answer prayers.

7. ?
Technocracy
Idea: a techno-industrial complex leading back towards thinking machines. Technology bonuses and production bonuses, but happiness penalties (the people don't trust the machines)
Can be founded/adopted by: Guild, and Landsraad house except Atreides.
Founded by: Some mid-game technological tech.
Holy shrine: The Great Processor. +2 culture, no GPPs (its not encouraging human development), +25% beakers, +1 beaker per city with this religion. Can be founded by great prophet, great scientist.
Unique units: Technocrat (expensive missionary).
Unique buildings: Automated factory. +25% hammer production, +1 unhappy. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to engineer.
Computerized research center. +25% beaker production, +1 unhappy.
Special properties: Low spread rate, no spread rate from shrine. Expensive missionaries.

The other possibility of course is to merge the Pro-Spice religion into CHOAM, and have Way of Liet as another religion, instead of a separate civic category, with catchbasins and reservoirs as unique buildings for that religion.

Maybe Kwizatz Haderach as another religion? Something that favors the BGs? Maybe foundable by BGs, Atreides and Harks (the key genetic pre-requisites)?

Or maybe a technological/industrial ethos, favoring Ix?
This could be a path leading back towards thinking machines.

Can normal buildings devour resources in the same way that corporations can? It would be cool if some of the CHOAM buildings could give say +1% gold per extra spice resource.

The religion of the Orange Catholic bible could also be another alternative as a general generic religion, in addition to or in place of the Way of Shai-Hulad.

Bump. Are these ideas something worth trying to expand on more? Any feedback in religion inclusion?

yeah i liked yourideas here,
im all for more religions, and more religion effects -
we can make each one different as you suggested, with units, and buildings.

but, it early now, since we dont have a 1.4 ready yet.
once we do we will be free to implement some new ideas.

I agree with the concept. I do not think we can redesign religions without also including civics; both should be designed together. Do you want to take a crack at a paper design?

A lot of good ideas here.

Perhaps we should have:
- an early religion that represents the initial Fremen mysticism called Zensunni, incorporating the Mahdi prophecy, worship of Shai Hulud, etc
- an early religion called Kwizatz Haderach representing the Bene Gesserit objectives, playing with blood lines, etc
- a later one, called Religion of Muad'Dib to represent Dune Messiah onwards, the fanatical missionaries, liturgy and jihad. It would be good to represent the Qizarate as having a special role within this, perhaps dual-role missionaries and inquisitors for removing other religions.

Could we do something interesting like found religions in certain circumstances? For example, if the religions Kwizatz Haderach and Zensunni coincide in one city then Religion of Muad'Dib is founded in that city. Perhaps civs can produce heirs/Kwizatz Haderach candidates, but only one can become the KH/Mahdi, founding the religion in the process. (I still haven't given up on the KH being a unit using respawning and multiple lives)

Maybe there should be a religion/civic that represents passionate loyalty to the Imperial throne for Corrino?

Perhaps use the name Tleilaxu Supremacy for the TL one? Too many Way of-s...

The Way of Shai-Hulad was designed to represent the Fremen mysticism but also the general population (they refer to the natives as being of the desert (Fremen) or of the pan and graben (city/town dwellers). I don't like calling it Zensunni, because that sounds like a generic faith that you could have on any planet, and has nothing to do with Worm-worship.
I'm definitely open to changing the name though.

I guess there is no real reason for it necessarily to be an inferior religion, we could buff it a little.

I don't think Kwizatz-Haderach makes sense as a religion that civs will adopt - its a secret plan known only to the BGs. I think it makes more sense to think of the BGs as being able to found or adopt nearly any of the other religions and work them towards their own purposes.
I like the idea of incorporating the Quizarate somehow, but I also really like the mechanic of forcing spread by conquest.

I can definitely see a civic representing imperial loyalty, but not really a religion; I think thats encapsulated in the status quo religion (not sure where it should be called Galactic Empire or Landsraad - how about The Great Compact?).

BTl Superemacy sounds fine.

There are several things in the design which I do not know how to implement.

a. Religions which can only be founded by certain civs. Religions are normally founded by the first civ to research a tech. If you look carefully, there is a different icon in the tech tree depending on whether you researching it will give you the religion; for example, the pyramid icon can have a little Jewish star in the corner, or not. So this needs to be controlled on a per-civ basis in addition to first come, first serve.

b. Automatically removing one religion, when another religion spreads into the city.

c. A religious building which acts like a corporation.

d. A unit whose death does not cause war weariness.

e. Automatically spreading a religion when a city is conquered.

f. One religion which is immune to inquisitors.

What we have now is "renamed" versions of the vanilla civs, which is not good; but I am reluctant to undertake this particular design because it has so many difficult looking parts.

a. Religions which can only be founded by certain civs.

I know this is possible, we have it in Warhammer, but it may require a fudge. In Warhammer, religions are founded either by:
a) Event; when you research the tech for a particular religion, if you are intended to research that religion, an event triggers which gives you a free missionary of that religion, which you are free to activate wherever. So for example, when the Empire or Brettonnia research the Words of Salvation tech, they get a free salvation religion missionary unit (no matter whether or not someone else has researched it before; like how you automatically get a free missionary when you research a religious tech in FFH). However, if High Elves research the Words of Salvation tech, they don't get a missionary.

b) at the beginning of the game; some civs in Warhammer gain their religion automatically whenever they found a new city. So Ancestor Gods is usually founded on turn 1 when dwarves build their first city.
c) by building the shrine wonder; in Warhammer the shrines are normal buildable wonders. Though I think you could also probably allow them to be built by great people in the same way that great scientists build an academy or great prophets normally build shrines, but they can do it in any city, they aren't restricted by the holy city that is chosen (semi-)randomly when the religion is founded.

However, I'm not sure if this ever actually creates a holy city, which we don't need in Warhammer since the shrines are buildable.

I bet others have encountered this before though, maybe post on the general modding forums?


b. Automatically removing one religion, when another religion spreads into the city.

I haven't seen this before, it just seemed like it would be possible, using an event if nothing else. There is some kind of message that occurs when a religion moves to a new city; it displays a text message to the player. Maybe somehow that could also tie into an event?

c. A religious building which acts like a corporation.
Again I haven't seen this, but I *thought* it was possible to get buildings to consume resources in much the same way that corps can.
I really like this design so it would be cool if we could figure out a way to do this.
Its a great way to make spice economy more important, which is a very flavorful feature for the mod.

d. A unit whose death does not cause war weariness.

I've definitely seen this in FFH and various mods of it, but I suppose its possible this was an extra tag they created. Maybe ask them if its easy to add or not?

e. Automatically spreading a religion when a city is conquered.
Triggerable by an python that happens on conquest? Again I know it can happen in FFH (the Order works like this).


f. One religion which is immune to inquisitors.
Not really an important issue, just ignore this.
It is only a potential problem with a player-induced expoit which requires a lot of hassle; you have to make the enemy convert, and then inquisition away their old religion, and that can kill the religion off forever.

In Warhammer, religions are founded either by:
a) Event; when you research the tech for a particular religion, if you are intended to research that religion, an event triggers which gives you a free missionary of that religion, which you are free to activate wherever.

That, I can do; but I don't think it gives you a holy city. If I understand your description, some civs get a free missionary and some don't, and you can pop the missionary to spread the religion to a city. Does it matter if there is an official holy city for these religions or not?

That, I can do; but I don't think it gives you a holy city. If I understand your description, some civs get a free missionary and some don't, and you can pop the missionary to spread the religion to a city. Does it matter if there is an official holy city for these religions or not?

Correct, it doesn't give a holy city.
Yes, in Warhammer the religions are all quite different, and function in different ways, and most civs can only adopt 1 particular religion (or at most 2). So only The Empire, Kislev, Brettonnia, Tilea and Estalia get a missionary from the Words of Salvation tech, and Salvation is the only religion that any of them can adopt (even if it spreads into their cities by other means).

In Warhammer it doesn't matter that we don't get a holy city.

For our purposes in Dune, the problems with not getting a holy city are:
a) The religious victory option requires that you have a holy city for the religion; you can only win a religious victory for a religion whose holy city you control.
Its debatable how big a problem this is.

b) Shrines can usually only be created in the holy city.
However, we can still have the shrines be created by great people in the normal manner without the holy city requirement (the shrines aren't really shrines anymore, they are just world wonders buildable with an ability on great people that have an effect similar to shrines), but this will let players build them anywhere. This could be problematic if you can stack them in your capital city - or more importantly if you can stack them in the city with your spice corps.

I don't think religious victory is anything dune wars needs, because dune is about spice - or terraforming - but not about believe in the first place - maybe for the benegesserit, but to make one victory condition only for one civ seems like exagerating. unless of course, if there was a change from civic to religion for spice/terraform, so that the religious victory would be bound to the believe what the future of dune should be like. even though I don't think this would be a good idea. to have the civics (which can be favorited by the leaders) is already a really nice implemention of the whole terraforming idea. that said, I think the ideas for new religions in the first post are really worth trying and even if they need playtest and refining, they would be a huge improvement to the acutal generic religious system. christianity on arrakis just doesn't feel right.

b. Automatically removing one religion, when another religion spreads into the city.

[...]

e. Automatically spreading a religion when a city is conquered.


There's onReligionSpread and onCityAcquiredAndKept in the CvEventManager, so both is really not a problem.

That, I can do; but I don't think it gives you a holy city. If I understand your description, some civs get a free missionary and some don't, and you can pop the missionary to spread the religion to a city. Does it matter if there is an official holy city for these religions or not?

Also shouldn't be a problem.
I'm sure, that there's a command, which gives you all the cities, which have a religion, and if the number ==1 after onReligionSpread, you can manually put the holy city there.



And yes, i know, i'm saying things, you probably already know.

Thanks for the pointers. I have spent a few hours exploring what can be done. I am not sure of the exact reason, but somehow this religion design doesn't "grab" me. I don't play religions very much in vanilla; mostly in a large game I pick one neighbor's religion so that he won't attack me for a while.

In this design, it seems like a mixture of different motivations. Landsraad is a political orientation which overlaps with the Landsraad tech/building. CHOAM is economic and it overlaps with the spice corps. Technocracy is technical and overlaps with the Ix buildings and UR. Tleilaxu is solitary to make them isolated.

The other three make good religions I can get behind. Shai-Hulud represents the primitive Fremen superstitions. Messianism is what happens in the Dune novel itself, and Golden Path is what almost happens or starts to happen in the next couple of books.

I went hunting a little through the novels to find other things to add. There is a 10-page appendix on "Religions of Dune" in the Dune novel. It is mostly a back story about a bunch of Earth religions who got together to try to agree on a religion, came up with one, and nobody liked it. So that didn't help.

In the background of the novel, I recall learning about Zensunni and the Wanderings. This may be closely tied to what we've called Shai-Hulud, but maybe there is enough to separate them. That gives four. I'll have to look up Qizarate; that must be from the later books, which I never did read. If we had six, it would probably be enough.

One other game design point has to do with the amount of unique mechanics for each religion. In vanilla, there is intentionally *zero* difference between the religions, for real-world reasons which probably make sense. I have made some unique abilities for the civs. FFH is unusual in that it has both unique civ abilities and unique religions. It is not a full N x M number of playable combinations, but there are a number of interesting combinations; I seem to recall most FFH civs can choose 2-3 religions and get a difference in play. That gets exponentially harder.

So, how much unique mechanics do we want/need for each religion?

EDIT: one other point has to do with graphics. Today the mod just uses the original seven missionaries and probably most of the 21 (= 7 x monastery, temple, cathedral) buildings. Some of the 21 buildings are recognizable with an Islamic crescent, Jewish star, etc, so they would stick out if we do something more. Any recommendations for graphics, either a symbol, or existing unit art we could steal, is appreciated.

The purpose of this religious design is to try to model some of the competing interests. One of the things I like most about the Dune setting is the competing set of interests; depending on how you look at it, the Emperor (with his Sardaukar and personal power), the Guild (with space travel monopoly) or the Landsraad (with the wealth of CHOAM) can all be seen as the most powerful group in the galaxy. All of them are reliant on the others. The Emperor can destroy any individual house, but couldn't possibly face all of them aligned against him. The guilds can freeze transport to anyone, stranding and choking them, but have no direct power, and require the spice trade to go on so they can extract their fill. The Landsraad control most of the wealth and have most of the military power, but are weak and divided and can be played off against each other.
[With the Bene Gesserit pulling strings in the background.]

However, during the time of Dune, these old power structures are undermined, and a new order emerges backed by brutal jihad, which in turn leads (hopefully) to the Golden Path of stability, though if Paul had screwed up then the Golden path would easily have not been obtained.
Conceivably, a return to thinking machines was also possible - most likely by Ix, but conceivably other houses could also adopt them too.

This big picture is what I was trying to model; the Establishment influence groups of the galactic political or economic order (loyalty could lie with either group), giving way over time to potential alternative futures for Dune.

Yes, there are different motivations for some of the religions, but that was kindof the point.
I like using these kind of ideology/power structure/loyalty differences as religions far more that I would actually creating a bunch of different religions.
If nothing else, most of the population in the Dune universe isn't particularly religious in the formal sense.

I really like having religions that are quite different, in both a thematic and gameplay sense. As you allude to, the reason why all religions are the same in vanilla is because the game creators didn't want to get boycotted or lynched by people complaining at them that they made Islam too weak, or that they are anti-semitic because they had Judaism give a gold bonus, or that they a racist because they made christianity more productive, or whatever. I think we're unlikely to be attacked by pissed off Fremen :-)

I don't particularly care about art, I'd be happy to just have an icon for each religion and then paste that on top of temple structures.
I'll think about it though.

* * *
Note, another way to fudge the CHOAM shrine.
Make it actually just a World Wonder that requires the CHOAM religion.
The base wonder does nothing but give +4 gold, but when constructed, it establishes the CHOAM corporation in that city, which is just another copy of the standard House spice corporations (and competes with these).
So CHOAM is both a religion (which can be spread between cities as normal) AND a corporation that is only ever present in the shrine city.

You really should do it. You have good ideas, and it would be much better than the generic religions. I think the religions in FFH are "state of the art" so to say... they are divergent and all have something "special" - I'm quite sure, that you are able to do the same for Dune Wars, thanks to your profound knowing of the background story (e.g. Dune).

Any recommendations for graphics, either a symbol, or existing unit art we could steal, is appreciated.

Between vanilla, Gods of Old, FFH2 and Planetfall you can probably get some reasonable placeholders.

Any recommendations for *what the art should look like*, due to references in the books about what the religious symbols are, would be appreciated.

The CHOAM symbol is pretty obvious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHOAM

The Golden Path could be a gold colored line going off into the distance on a black field.

The Landsraad/Imperium one could be a 5 pointed star set inside a pyramid, like on Shaddam's medal thingie in this picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shaddam_corrino_iv.jpg

The Shai-Hulad could be a stylized worm set on a yellow circle.

The Bene Tl could be a DNA spiral.

Messianism could be a sword, facing upwards, maybe with a fiery/"holy" aura around it, or with a hand clasping the hilt.

Technocracy could be a pair of crossed hammers (like the community hammer and sickle).

Although I am still not convinced that Landsraad and CHOAM make good "religions", I can't suggest anything better. At least they "sound Dunish".

One of the challenges of changing religions is that you need six different versions of each icon and putting them into all the right places is painful. Here is a set of icons I put together for the seven religions. Before we make the other versions and stuff them where they go, let's agree the graphics are OK. One of the icon sizes, which is displayed in the main window, is a 16x16 to show which religions are present in a city. So it is important to avoid showing much detail, and to choose very different colors.

The icons are in the same order as post #1: Landsraad, CHOAM, Messianism, Tleilaxu Supremacy, Golden Path, Shai-Hulud, Technocracy.

As in the design, I'm happy for Landsraad to be called Galactic Empire or The Great Compact instead, but I personally really like the idea of representing loyalty to one of the two "status quo" power groups.

If others had alternatives we could consider them... but I didn't really see any :-)

Icons look good.

how about this one for Messianism:
http://wowdata.buffed.de/img/icons/wow/16/inv_sword_28.png
it's 16x16

I'm reading Children of Dune at the moment. There is a big contrast between the Mahdi-awaiting followers of Muad'dib in Dune, and what the Religion of Muad'dib becomes under Alia with the power of Qizarate in Children of Dune. It would be nice to reflect this in the mod.

A possibility could be having the Cult of St Alia as a religion. That way we can have conflict between those true to Muad'dib, and those loyal to Alia and the Qizarate. We can scrap Alia as a BG leader seeing as that is wrong thematically in any case. Then perhaps in the future Alia could be a Hero or General unit of some kind for this new religion.

You could perhaps make room for this by making CHOAM a special more powerful form of corporation which might be a better fit anyway.

Also, I think Messianism isn't Dunish enough - I'd prefer something with Muad'dib or Mahdi in it.

Well, first off, I see children of dune as being somewhat after the timeline of the mod. But having said that:

It would be nice to reflect this in the mod.

I see this difference as being inherent in Messianism (those like Alia, who want to continue the power through force) vs the Golden Path (more Paulish).

We could bring the Golden path religion earlier, rename it and tweak it as appropriate; I'm not particularly set on the design of the Golden path.

I'm happy to change the names around, as long as the general themes of violent-jihadist religion vs peaceful-longterm-survival religion are still there.

I like leaving CHOAM as a religion though. The point of CHOAM vs Landsraad/Empire is to demonstrate that even in the status quo, houses might be leaning towards either of these two power groups and getting political or economic power as appropriate, and those factions are less likely to trust each other (religious diplomacy effects).

I agree Alia is a little confusing as BG. If we remove her, we would want to add a second BG leader. I think Jessica would be equally confusing as BG. I can't think of any other famous BG. Are there any other BG in the movies/miniseries to use a screenshot?

I reviewed about Qizarate last night. I think that would be a good addition.

My objection to CHOAM and Landsraad is that these power groups are not really "mutually exclusive" with the other religions. If we can think of others, I will probably include them instead of CHOAM/Landsraad.

Is there anything "canon" written about Tleilaxu religion? "Supremacy" is rather generic.

If you want to rename Messianism to something involving the Quizarate, I can live with that. But it needs to be very clear that it is jihadistic victory by the sword.

My objection to CHOAM and Landsraad is that these power groups are not really "mutually exclusive" with the other religions. If we can think of others, I will probably include them instead of CHOAM/Landsraad.

As a general value system, I think they *are* exclusive to the other religions.
The messianic worship of Muad'Dib is a direct challenge to the established order of the Corrino Padisah Emperor and the Great Houses; they want Muad'Dib in charge instead; the first things that happen when Paul takes over is that the Emperor gets exiled and Paul takes all his CHOAM holdings, and then starts conquering the other Houses.

The Tleilaxu are outsiders, definitely not loyal to CHOAM, the Landsraad or the Emperor; they are quintessential Other.

The Shai-Hulad religion is practiced by the Fremen and the native population, who can be bullied and controlled and handed around as a Fief, but do not support them.

The Golden Path also cannot exist with the old order; the entire point of the Golden path is as an alternative to the decay that Paul sees the status quo leading to.

And the return of a technocratic butlerian-precept-violating system is also a clear threat to the established feudal order, in much the same way that the industrial revolution on earth overturned the old feudal power systems.

So I feel that the religions are pretty exclusive already.

Is there anything "canon" written about Tleilaxu religion? "Supremacy" is rather generic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Tleilax

The Tleilaxu are isolationist and xenophobic in the extreme; they basically think of the rest of humanity as unclean. They're barely even human anymore.
Their religion is very important, but they utterly refused to share it with outsiders. It is a Zensufi offshoot.
But the Tleilaxu Supremacy religion here is not supposed to represent just their religious beliefs, but their whole cultural ethos of separation.

I'm happy to have the Supremacy part of the name changed, I have no attachment to it, but I think the general concept is sound.

Maybe what you are aiming at is not religion at all, but something like "rulership". You commented about challenges to the established order. In post-apocalyptic Fury Road, I used the religion slot to keep information about which city should become the capitol of the nation once it is rebuilt. So one civilization could support another civilization's bid to become the capitol, just like one civ can adopt another civ's religion. But only one of the civs will become the capitol.

Viewed this way, Emperor is one possible ruler, Messiah is another; Golden Path, Tleilaxu and technocracy fit. These are mutually exclusive. But then CHOAM, which is not a rulership, does not fit; you can make money regardless of what style of ruler is in power. Also Shai-Hulud does not really fit, but your original comments suggest this is kind of a "default" low level religion, not a serious contender for rulership.

If we add Qizarate as an example of a bureaucratic theocracy rather than a charismatic/jihadic one, and remove CHOAM, then perhaps we have a set which fits together.

EDIT: But ... then we have to examine overlaps in civics. We have Imperium and Theocracy as government civics, and Great Convention and Imperial Fealty as law civics. Maybe those just need new names.

Maybe what you are aiming at is not religion at all, but something like "rulership".

As I stated in the original design:

I propose a major redesign which uses the religion mechanic as more of an Ethos or Value system, rather than just actual religious faith.

Just because the mechanic is called Religion and because in vanilla civ its used for religions doesn't mean that we have to use it for religions.

But then CHOAM, which is not a rulership, does not fit; you can make money regardless of what style of ruler is in power

CHOAM most definitely is an allegiance; it is an allegiance toward the great house trade system trying to make money for themselves, rather than to the Emperor.
I think the choice of aiming for political power and influence vs money is an interesting one, and worth modeling with two separate priority/value/"religion" systems.

The Shai-hulad religion is basically attempting to model the pre-Messianic Fremen (and natives) religion, and represents these guys as a separate power base. Its the religion you have if you're trying to cooperate with the natives, rather than exploiting them in the standard fashion.
Its generally less effective than cooperating with the main feudal institutions, but it can still be valuable.

The Golden path is the religion I would be happiest to lose or change. I really like a trade-religion.
If you really object that strongly, then make it the Guild, which is the other leg of the status-quo power base.

I *guess* you could split the Messianic faith by militaristic vs bureaucratic, but I think the Paul (idealistic trying to save humanity) vs the Alia (power-hungry wanting control) makes much more sense.
The Quizarate is just the bureaucracy that supports the militarists, rather than being in conflict with them.


EDIT: But ... then we have to examine overlaps in civics. We have Imperium and Theocracy as government civics, and Great Convention and Imperial Fealty as law civics. Maybe those just need new names.

Yes, there is some overlap with the civics, but not enough to make them unviable.
I'm happy for name changes if you have suggestions.

Quote:
EDIT: But ... then we have to examine overlaps in civics. We have Imperium and Theocracy as government civics, and Great Convention and Imperial Fealty as law civics. Maybe those just need new names.

Yes, there is some overlap with the civics, but not enough to make them unviable.
I'm happy for name changes if you have suggestions.

Theocracy could be called Devotion, a state where everyone is bound to the value (as described in this thread) of it's civ.

The Legal category is a bit unclear to me, maybe this needs to be renamed as well?
Imperial Fealty is about drafting and happiness, so it could be called Mobilization.
Great Convention is about Culture, so it needs to be clarified what culture IS in dune wars, and why the civic gives +100% - culture gives influence, and is therefore maybe a way to attract people.

I'd rename Legal to public system or public affairs or public view something like that.
then we have
- tribal organziation
- Kanly
- War of Assasins (police state maybe?)
- Mobilization (instead of fealty)
- water sharing (instead of great convention)

My objection to CHOAM and Landsraad is that these power groups are not really "mutually exclusive" with the other religions.

I agree with this point.

In Children of Dune, the Atreides have 51% of CHOAM shares and the Priesthood of Muad'Dib hold 5%, a recognition that they control the spice. Still, CHOAM is not really their ideology. CHOAM is a company which most members of the Landsraad have a stake in. It is a mechanism for sharing the profits of spice mining and trade. I'm not sure it really fits as an ideology or ethos. This is a quote from CoD:

"What you of the CHOAM directorate seem unable to understand is that you seldom find real loyalties in commerce. When did you last hear of a clerk giving his life for the company?"

(There is a great summary of what CHOAM is on pg147 of Children of Dune - if people have it.)

Parties who have a range of different agendas, religious or other-wise, still desire shares in CHOAM. For example, when Scytale threatens Paul's children in Dune Messiah, his demand is for all of his CHOAM holdings. Even the Tleilaxu with their religious fundamentalism still want a controlling stake in CHOAM.

Off-topic slightly but I think it would be simple enough to have a custom mechanic to model CHOAM the way it is described in the books. When the CHOAM tech is discovered, shares or directorships are split amoung the civilizations, either (i) based on the amount of tiles controlled or (ii) based on the number of spice tiles controlled. Civs then get an income each turn based on the total number of spice tiles worked on the whole planet. Every 10 turns perhaps, the CHOAM holdings are recalculated. CHOAM holdings can be viewed in a new tab in one of the advisor screens. The majority holder of CHOAM shares could get some special benefit. House Corrino could get some advantage in terms of manipulating CHOAM holdings.

By the way, there is no rule that says we have to have 7 religions. We could stick to 5 or 6 which might make the religious distinctions even starker.

I can't think of any other famous BG.

You could use Lady Fenring. She is a highly capable BG in Dune. Ix and Tleilax only have one leader so it wouldn't be that terrible to go to one.

Theocracy could be called Devotion, a state where everyone is bound to the value (as described in this thread) of it's civ.

Well, theocracy was intended to really be an actual theocracy, and so be favored by the more religious leaders/factions (like the Tleilaxu).
But Devotion sounds just as good, with your interpretation. I would be happy with this change.

Imperial Fealty is about drafting and happiness, so it could be called Mobilization.

The idea of the connection here was related to getting access to the Imperial levies.
In the books, they keeping talking about "where do the Sardaukar come from", and the official line is that they are chosen from the normal feudal levies that the houses give to the Emperor. So the idea was that Imperial Fealty let you levy troops using the draft mechanic.

Great Convention is about Culture, so it needs to be clarified what culture IS in dune wars, and why the civic gives +100% - culture gives influence, and is therefore maybe a way to attract people.

The idea was that culture in Dune is really political influence. It comes from Nobles. Great Convention civic represents the increase in power and influence you get from following the strictures and rules of the great convention in detail.

War of Assasins (police state maybe?)
Well, in some ways the War of Assassins is the *opposite* of the normal civ police state; war of assassins is about using espionage assassins rather than open warfare, its designed to avoid open warfare, hence the war weariness penalty.
I'd object to changing the name; it has great Dune flavor.

water sharing (instead of great convention)
This makes no sense to me.

In Children of Dune, the Atreides have 51% of CHOAM shares and the Priesthood of Muad'Dib hold 5%, a recognition that they control the spice.

The idea I had of this, is when Paul takes over the CHOAM shares, that is really the end of CHOAM as an influence group group. CHOAM controlled by Atreides isn't really a focus on making money/spice wealth anymore; instead its control has been seized and taken over by the objective of jihad.
So yes, they're exclusive.
Vague historical analogy: after the reformation, the English crown (controlling the Church of England) appropriated all of the assets of the Catholic church in England, claiming them for their own. This does not mean that because the assets still existed, that the Church of England was not mutually exclusive with Catholicism.

CHOAM is a company which most members of the Landsraad have a stake in. It is a mechanism for sharing the profits of spice mining and trade. I'm not sure it really fits as an ideology or ethos.

Then change the "Landsraad" religion to be called "Galactic Imperium".
This way, the GalImp religion represents the Emperor and his political power, while CHOAM represents the Great Houses and their interests in generating wealth.

And, fundamentally, do people think that a strategic choice between political power (happiness and culture) vs economic power (gold, directly), is not an interesting strategic option? I think the religions would feel pretty different - which is a Good Thing.

By the way, there is no rule that says we have to have 7 religions

I feel very strongly that we need two "status quo" religions, like Galactic Imperium and CHOAM, to represent two competing interest groups from the "old empire".

And in the current design at least, of the 7:
a) One is exclusive to a single faction (Bene Tl)
b) Two come late-game only (Technocracy and Golden Path, though Golden Path could easily come earlier).

You could use Lady Fenring.
Sounds fine to me.
so it wouldn't be that terrible to go to one.
This would also be fine.

If we think of the religion category as "rulership", then we can try the following:

Imperium: believes the Emperor should have all the political power

Landsraad: believes the Great Council of Houses should have all the political power

Mahdi: believes the Mahdi (messiah, ie, Paul) should personally have all the political power

Qizarate: believes that the Mahdi's church bureaucracy should have all the political power

Tleilaxu Supremacy: believes that the Tleilaxu should have all the political power

Shai-Hulud: Fremen belong in the desert, who cares what the rest of the universe does.

We can rename a couple of the civics to get rid of the reference to imperium.

The main goal, as Ahriman pointed out in his original post, is to get groups with positive reaction to civs in the same group and negative reaction to civs in the other groups.

The main goal, as Ahriman pointed out in his original post, is to get groups with positive reaction to civs in the same group and negative reaction to civs in the other groups.

No, the main goal is to have religions that have different effects and play differently, while maintaining a Dune flavor.

If there is no strategic difference in how Landsraad fealty vs Imperial fealty works, then the design is bad.
If there is no strategic difference in how Mahdi fealty vs Quizarate fealty works, then the design is bad.

Thats part of my design intent:
Landsraad or Empire is about political(culture) and happiness bonuses.
CHOAM is about gold bonuses.
These two are powerful and widely spread early game, but fail over time as the new ideas come in.

Tleilaxu is about priest bonuses, and is not an evangelical faith, it does not accept powindah outsiders.

Technocracy is about hammer bonuses.
Messianism is about military bonuses.
Golden path is about stability through control and forced stagnation.

Thus, the religions have strategic impacts.

If there is no strategic difference in how Landsraad fealty vs Imperial fealty works, then the design is bad.

I agree having strong strategic differences between the religions may be an interesting idea. There are already large differences between the N civs due to unique abilities. If there are also large strategic differences between M religions, then there are a huge number N * M of different combinations which must be balanced against each other. So I believe this is something we should explore gingerly, rather than rejecting any design which does not have it.

Landsraad or Empire is about political(culture) and happiness bonuses.
CHOAM is about gold bonuses.
Tleilaxu is about priest bonuses.
Technocracy is about hammer bonuses.
Messianism is about military bonuses.
Golden path is about stability through control and forced stagnation.

I left off technocracy by mistake. Is this a hammer bonus or beaker bonus?

The main difference between your list and mine is you have CHOAM; while I have Qizarate as a bureaucracy and I split Landsraad from Imperium. I agree I cannot find much gameplay difference between Landsraad and Imperium, though we could make up one. Either Qizarate or Landsraad could be given a hammer bonus or a gold bonus.

I just have a hard time imagining a CHOAM representative saying, "Sorry, I cannot establish an outpost in your city because I disagree with your choice of government". Merchants go everywhere, regardless of what government may be in power at the time.

If there are also large strategic differences between M religions, then there are a huge number N * M of different combinations which must be balanced against each other.

I really haven't seen any particular synergy problems. I think the only things that need to be considered are Ix and technocracy. There should be a synergy here. And ideally there should be a synergy between Corrino and Imperium, and between Ecaz and CHOAM (since they're our traders), and between Fremen and Messianism.

Is this a hammer bonus or beaker bonus?

Mostly hammer, but a mix of both.

I will gladly rename CHOAM to Landsraad if you prefer that, and have the current "Landsraad" be Imperium. My basic idea here was that CHOAM is the form of wealth controlled by the Great houses anyway.

And I'd be willing to see Quizarate merged into the Golden Path somehow. Golden Path is the least developed of my concepts anyway.


I just have a hard time imagining a CHOAM representative saying, "Sorry, I cannot establish an outpost in your city because I disagree with your choice of government". Merchants go everywhere, regardless of what government may be in power at the time.

Also note that unless you're in the theocracy civic, religions can be spread to your cities and their temples built without you having them as your state religion. So I don't see how this is relevant.

The idea was that culture in Dune is really political influence. It comes from Nobles. Great Convention civic represents the increase in power and influence you get from following the strictures and rules of the great convention in detail.
it's good to know, what culture represents in dune wars, thanks for the insight - therefore "water sharing" truely makes no sense ;) - "imperial fealty" could be just "fealty" because I suppose you won't draft only Sardaukars? - war of assasin is great as such.

regarding the religions, I agree that there should be a commercial belief, I think it would be a good idea to use the list of Davidlallen, and declare "religions" in dune wars as a belief in who should be in charge (ot: could be connected to a diplomatic victory, a diplomatic religous victory maybe?).
To distingueish Imperium and Landsraad, give the Imperium belief the ability to use a landing stage to get a sardaukar contract and let the "temples" increase espionage. Landsraad would be CHOAM because that's the whole idea (somehow) behind it. if you don't belief that Landsraad should rule the universe, why would you support CHOAM? of course it would still be possible to spread the belief, unless of course people are devoted to their "messiah" and therefore a bit difficult. ;)

"imperial fealty" could be just "fealty" because I suppose you won't draft only Sardaukars?

I should clarify; the official party line was that Sardaukar were recruited from levies. This is what most people believed. The reason why I mentioned this is because it demonstrates that the Great Houses did in fact have to give feudal levies to the Emperor.
However, in reality, Sardaukar did NOT come from these levies, they were recruited solely from Salusa Secundus, the emperer's hell-hole prison planet.

give the Imperium belief the ability to use a landing stage to get a sardaukar contract and let the "temples" increase espionage

I don't really like these. Imperium "temples" should give happiness and culture, and slots for nobles (which are boosted by the Imperium shrine).
Sardakar cooperation should remain a Corrino-only thing. But the Corrinos should have a high rating for the tech that founds Imperium and prefer to follow that religion, so they will naturally be more likely to trade their Sardaukar resource to other co-religionists.

* * *
So, a variation on the original design:

1. Galactic Empire
Idea: The ethos of preserving the feudal galactic status quo, and supporting the Emperor as head. This is an early game religion that is founded by an early tech and is easy to spread, but can be easily overtaken later by any of the other ideas for change.
Gives culture and happiness; people like the status quo.
Can be founded by or adopted by: anyone but Fremen or Tleilaxu
Founded by tech: feudalism
Great shrine: Imperial palace. Adds +2 free noble specialist, +1culture per city with this religion, +1 gold to all noble specialists. Spreads religion. Can be built by great priest, great noble.
Unique buildings: Feudal estate. Gives +1 happy, +2 culture, +20% culture. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to noble. Requires tech: feudalism.
Fiefdom. Gives +50% culture, +1 happy, +1 happy if Landsraad is state religion, +1 happy with Sardaukar cooperation resource, requires 3 feudal estates. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to noble. Requires tech: imperium.
Unique units: Diplomat. Standard missionary unit. Requires feudal estate.
Special properties: High spread rate, high spread rate from shrine. This religion is automatically removed from a city whenever any new religion is planted in that city.

2. Landsraad
Idea: ethos of trade, particularly spice, controlled by the Great Houses of the Landsraad. Spice makes CHOAM go around.
Can be founded by or adopted by: anyone but Fremen or Tleilaxu or Bene Gesserit
Founded by tech: great houses
Great shrine: CHOAM Headquarters. not actually a shrine, but instead another spice corporation hq (and no executives to spread it), that competes with all the other spice corporations (so you can't have both in the same city). Spreads CHOAM religion (not the same as the corporation). Founded by a great trader or a great priest. Gives +2 trader GPPs.
So this allows you to get a second city that gives +3 commerce per spice resource you control.
Unique units: Emissary. Standard missionary unit (spreads the religion, not the corporation). Requires CHOAM outpost.
Unique buildings: CHOAM outpost. Gives +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader. Requires tech: spice economy.
CHOAM Directorate (cathedral replacement). Requires 3 CHOAM outposts. Gives +1 trade route, +50% trade route yield, gives +1 happy from each of the various luxury rade goods (semuta, opafire, etc.) Requires tech: CHOAM.
Allows 2 citizens to be converted to trader.
Special properties: This religion requires creating both a religion (the main component) and a new corporation (which shows up ONLY as the replacement for a holy shrine). Low natural spread rate, low spread rate by shrine, normal price missionaries.

3. Messianism. (Alternatives: Way of the Mahdi, Way of Muad'Dib)
Idea: Jihadist. Convert the galaxy by the sword.
Founded by: Holy Jihad tech.
Can be founded by or adopted by: anyone but Corrino or Tleilaxu
Great shrine: Dune Messiah (or: Prophecies of the Mahdi). Gives -100% war weariness in this city. Gives -25% war weariness empirewide. Gives +10% military production per city with this religion. So the shrine becomes a unit factory powerhouse. Gives +1 priest GPPs.
Unique units: Fish speaker. Requires theocracy. Strength 6 melee unit, very cheap on hammers, death does not cause war weariness. Designed to be cannon fodder; lower strength than contemporary units, but able to be fielded in overwhelming numbers.
Unique buildings: Temple of Muad'Dib. +1 happy, +1 culture, +15% military production, +1 unhappy per non-state religion. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. +10% military production with Fremen water debt.
Special properties: no missionary unit. Low natural spread rate. High spread rate from shrine. Whenever a civ that has this as its state religion conquers a city, this religion is automatically added to that city.

4. Tleilaxu Supremacy
Idea: Tleilaxu should be apart and separate, with their own theistic faith that they will never share with outsiders. Essentially, this is a religion that can only ever be adopted by 1 civ. Its main purpose is to encourage the 'Otherness' of the Tleilaxu, and the fact that everyone hates and fears them (diplomacy penalty for different religion with every other player).
Can be founded or adopted by: Tleilaxu only. This is the only religion the BTl can adopt.
Founded by tech: mysticism (so you get it in your capital).
Great shrine: Prophecies of Bandalong. +4 culture, +2 free priest, +1 hammer output to priests and great priests in all cities. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to priests.
Unique units:
Unique buildings: Zensufi temple. Adds +1 happy, allows 2 citizens to be converted to priest. Requires Faith.
Biology lab. Adds +15% beakers, +1 happy, allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires Academies tech.
Axolotl tanks. Requires genetic manipulation. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to priest.
Special properties: no missionaries. No automatic spread or spread from shrine The religion is automatically spread to any new city founded by the BTl faction. (Several religions in Warhammer mod work like this, so I know its codeable).


5. Qizarate
Idea: Bureaucratic religion leading towards the golden path.
Can be adopted by/founded by: anyone except BTl.
Founded by tech: some mid-late-game tech. Academies? Or a newly created Qizarate tech?
Great shrine: ??
Unique units:
Unique buildings: Quizarate temple. +1 happy, -30% city maintenance. Allows 2 citizens to be coverted to priests.
The Golden Path. Gives +5 happy, +5 health, -25% beakers, -50% trade route yield. Requires golden path tech.
Special properties: When spread to a city, it instantly eliminates all other religions in that city. Does not have a natural spread rate, is not spread by shrine; missionary only.

6. Way of Shai-Hulad.
Idea: the kind of general animist worm-worship held by the Fremen before Paul, and many of the regular inhabitants of Dune. Basically a weak backup religion for anyone who doesn't have another one, or for players who would rather get a standard gold-shrine religion.
Can be founded/adopted by: anyone except BTl.
Founded by: Faith
Holy shrine: Shrine of the worm. +2 culture. +1 gold per city with this religion present. +2 priest GPPs.
Unique units: Prophet (missionary replacement).
Unique buildings: Arrakian Temple, +1 culture, +1 water, +1happy with Fremen water debt. Natives of Arrakis with traditional lifestyle use less water and so have some excess. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires tech: faith.
Special properties: missionaries more expensive 50% more?, low religion spread rate. This is an inferior religion. Shai-Hulad doesn't answer prayers.

7. Technocracy
Idea: a techno-industrial complex leading back towards thinking machines. Technology bonuses and production bonuses, but happiness penalties (the people don't trust the machines)
Can be founded/adopted by: Anyone except Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilaxu.
Founded by: Industrialism
Holy shrine: The Great Processor. +2 culture, no GPPs (its not encouraging human development), +25% beakers, +1 beaker per city with this religion. Can be founded by great prophet, great scientist.
Unique units: Technocrat (expensive missionary).
Unique buildings: Automated factory. +25% hammer production, +1 unhappy. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to engineer. +25% hammers with power. Requires industrialism tech.
Computerized research center. +25% beaker production, +1 unhappy. +25% beakers with power. requires cybernetics tech.
Robotic power plant. Provides power with Thinking machines resource. requires thinking machines tech.
Special properties: Low spread rate, no spread rate from shrine. Expensive missionaries.

* * *
So, some synergies can be obtained by giving bonuses with the unique trade resources.
We could also take the Technocracy buildings and rather than having Ix get UBs from them without the unhappy, just give +1 happy with thinking machines resource.

Also thought of a cool Bene Gesserit idea:
Unique building (Bene Gesserit): Missionaria Protectiva. +1 culture. Gives +2 culture +1 happy per religion present in the city.

I have tried to arrange the current proposal into a spreadsheet. This highlights that some items are missing. One of the challenges of entering the information into the xml is that when you go to enter a field, and you hadn't thought of it before, suddenly you have to have an inspiration in order to continue. And somebody might not like your sudden inspiration. If we can agree on all these fields, then creating the xml will be straightforward.

I've added some ideas:

Monasteries
Galactic Empire: Embassy, gives +10% research You may build diplomats
Landsraad: Business Academy gives +10% gold, you may build emissaries
Way of Mahdi: Arena, gives the ability to let two of your troops fight against each other (to get exp), you may build Fish Speaker
Way of Shai-Hulud: Sanctuary, you may build prophets, +15% city defense
Tleilaxu:

Cathedral
Way of Mahdi:
Golden Path:
Way of Shai-Hulud: Stillsuit Engineer, Gives +1 free Great Engineer. (Master truth sayer?)
Technocracy: Network Node, acts as palace (reduces corruption in nearby cities), -10% espionage in this city


Shrine
Landsraad: Business pact, gives a permanent alliance with the space guild civ. (or let's them come into play as an ally, like Baisum in FFH)
Golden Path:


The Mentats could be utilised somehow?

@David
I see no reason why we need to have monastaries. Just put the missionary requirement onto the temples.
Nor does every religion need to have the same number of buildings, though I'd be ok with having 2 buildings per religion. But the Messianism religion temple for eg is much more powerful than the Arrakian temple or Manor.

I really like the extra spice corp as the Landsraad/CHOAM shrine. Its relatively easy to implement too: The building is just another copy of the House Spice Corp (and competes with the others) and it founds the CHOAM corp.
And I really like the +military production shrine for Messianism, if you can figure out a way to code it. It feels so flavorful.

For Tleilaxu, how about:
Biology Lab. Allows 1 citizen to be turned into priest. +1 happy, +15% beakers.
Axolotl tank. As current, but also allows 2 citizens to be turned into priests.
[Biological modification kindof *is* their religion.]


Landsraad: Business pact, gives a permanent alliance with the space guild civ. (or let's them come into play as an ally, like Baisum in FFH)
I dislike this: the Basium effect never really worked well in FFH, Basium never did anything useful, its not flavorful for the Guild to enter the game like this, and it *definitely* doesn't make sense that they would enter based on CHOAM. The Guild and CHOAM are competing power groups.

* * *
Added some more tech requirements to post 37.

I'm most keen to see the religions implemented. That feels like a key component of the mod not yet in place, together with getting more uniqueness into the civs. I can take the Gamefonts work. I would think the custom code required for the religions is the most challenging part.

There are at least five parts: base xml with names, unit art, religion icon art/gamefonts, building selection, and python for special effects. I have spent this afternoon trying to sort out the unit art for great people and missionaries, and making the related buttons. I can get "something reasonable" for all seven great people and all six of the missionaries from my religion spreadsheet, probably by tomorrow. The icon/gamefont work is daunting. The buildings we can come to a little later. The python is important, but not critical, and we could actually get a big improvement with the right art and no python.

I put some base art for the religion icons at this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8446080&postcount=20). Do you think it is any good as a starting point? I can send the full res base art and my working files.

Have you done religion icons before? For each religion you need six: the base icon, the greyed out one for an unfounded religion in the religion screen, the gamefont and holy city variant with a star, and the gamefont_75 and holy city variant. It's important but seriously not fun.

First, not that we are probaly working from post 37; do we have further design comments, or shall I edit that into the first post?
Do people like the unique resource synergies?

The python is important, but not critical, and we could actually get a big improvement with the right art and no python.


It will be important to start getting some things implemented so we can test.

My biggest concerns are:
i) the *wide* variation in the timing of religous foundings. are the late religions still useful; is it worth adopting them? Do the early religions spread too much?
ii) Do we need more buildings for some of the religions? Messianism and Shai-hulad only have 1 each atm
iii) Do religions provide enough happiness? Happiness can be hard to come by without hereditary rule.

Do you think it is any good as a starting point?

This icons are mostly fine; the messianism flames on the sword don't quite work, and the lime-green background reduces the scariness of the sword. A single colored flame effect with less jagged tongues (ie more solid flame around the sword) might make the sword feel more solid, and sharper.

The golden path one doesn't really fit if we're changing this to Quizarate, and I certainly don't think it should have a median strip.

The brain thing for technocracy doesn't quite work for me; as an icon for Thinking Machines directly its ok, but I still think that something more directly industrial, like crossed hammers, would work better here.

If you look in our current gamefonts (enlarged pics attached) - there are a lot of custom religion icons already in there. I'd suggested using some of these as placeholders. There's a lot to choose from. That's what I did for the bonus resources - just picked things from the current gamefont that looked vaguely like the commodity in question. Presumably, somewhere there's the icons to go with all these religions - do they come with RevolutionDCM? Or perhaps the Rapture mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=353) since I suspect jonnysmith did this gamefont work and based it on his mod gamefont which has a zillion religions in it. There's even the CHOAM symbol in there which must be from when Dune Wars had CHOAM as a corporation.

My thoughts on your first draft icons. I'd like to have a stab at them, but I won't have much time until possibly next weekend - which is why I suggest going with the placeholder logos to circumvent gamefont work that we might have to repeat if we refine the icons.

I don't really like using the CHOAM symbol for Landsraad - membership of the two bodies overlap, but they are not the same thing. The CHOAM entry in the Dune Encyclopedia (http://www.thedune.ru/duneenc/download/DUNE_ENCYCLOPEDIA.pdf) is worth reading (people debate whether it is canon - but we're not all that canonical anyway with the Ordos, etc). I can think

For Mahdi (Messianism) I prefer something like a dark silhouetted figure with a glowing aura around them. Flaming swords are not especially Dune for me.

Perhaps cogs for Technocracy? Or some kind of stylised circuit board style thing?

I think the worm symbol will need to be more stylised if it's going to work at gamefont size. I was thinking do a cream on brown version of our current barbarian symbol.

Some kind of lion for Imperium I think, but it would need to be slightly different from the Corrino flag.

DNA for the Tleilaxu is OK, but I think their religion should be separated from their biological activities perhaps, in which case we should have something more abstract. I suggest we should use the name Tleilaxu Zensufism rather than Supremacy. We need to capture the fact that they are secretly organized along theistic lines.

No ideas for a Qizarate logo yet.

I think the best approach is to go with placeholder icons, until I have a chance to rustle up some new ones. When the gameplay aspects are built and bedded in, we can roll in some more polished art.

I think we should go with Temple of Alia as the Qizarate shrine. This means swapping in Lady Margot Fenring as the second BG leader instead of Alia. I would have done this already if I'd come up with a good leaderhead. Do you think anyone would be confused/upset if we used Mohiam from Children of Dune for Margot? She certainly looks different enough...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229161&stc=1&d=1254043500

I don't really like using the CHOAM symbol for Landsraad - membership of the two bodies overlap, but they are not the same thing

Our Landsraad religion is a trade religion, so I think its fine.


For Mahdi (Messianism) I prefer something like a dark silhouetted figure with a glowing aura around them. Flaming swords are not especially Dune for me.

"Mahdi" doesn't really make sense as the name of a religion. That would be like calling Christianity "Jesus", or Islam "Mohammad", or Judiasm "Moses". It also isn't as directly related to the purpose of the religion
A silhouetted figure might make it seem that the religion was about intrigue; we want it to be as clear as possible that this religion is about conquest. A sword does that.
I'm still unsure if this religion needs a second building or not, and if so what it should be (and where in the tech tree).

Or some kind of stylised circuit board style thing?

This sounds like it would be very hard to do in a simple icon. Its not the most easily identifiable of shapes.
Maybe a hammer crossed with a lightning bolt: industry and technology? (Like a communist hammer and sickle).

but I think their religion should be separated from their biological activities

I disagree, I think they are pretty tied together fluffwise, and their religion *is* basically a civ-specific mechanic, so it makes sense to tie the two together. Their shrine is designed to buff priests and let them run a priest specialist economy, so they need priest slots on their buildings. And if their buildings are biological... so what? Priest slots anyway.

I suggest we should use the name Tleilaxu Zensufism rather than Supremacy.

This is fine with me, I don't mind either way.

I think the best approach is to go with placeholder icons, until I have a chance to rustle up some new ones.
Agreed.

Also: can I suggest using Rhombur Vernius as the leader for Ix rather than Erlin Malky?

I think we should try to use leaders who are contemporaneous with the events of Dune/Children of Dune whenever possible, Malky comes 3000+ years later.

I'm sure we can find a picture of a cyborg somewhere to use. And I think a cyborg picture would be more "Ixian" too than just some old man for Malky.

Some examples:
http://www.fotosearch.com/BLD114/ca_27_4/
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP202/k2028559/
http://bluetoothstore.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/cyborg.jpg


Also: another possible thinking machine picture:
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP047/k0474707/

If you look in our current gamefonts (enlarged pics attached) - there are a lot of custom religion icons already in there. I'd suggested using some of these as placeholders.


Interesting point. Here is a proposal for "better", but not "perfect" art.

* Imperial: replace six point Jewish star in gamefonts with five point one from Shaddam's medal
* Landsraad: the CHOAM flag is already in there.
* Mahdi: use blue crescent (today's Zensunni)
* Qizarate: use heart (today's Zensufism)
* Shai-Hulud: use green circle (today's Zenshiism)
* Technocrat: there is a random hammer icon in gamefonts (above 113); draw a new 64x64 icon to match
* Tleilaxu: use purple wheel (today's Maha Christian)

Attached is the 64x64 art. I will make *one* change to gamefonts to put the five point star; I can survive that.

"Mahdi" doesn't really make sense as the name of a religion. That would be like calling Christianity "Jesus", or Islam "Mohammad", or Judiasm "Moses".

I appreciate that - I'm just searching for a more Dune related term. I associate Messianism with Judaism too much - but perhaps that's just me. I don't particularly like Way of Mahdi either... there's probably a nicer phrase.

Placeholders look fine for now.

Working on the python for restricting religion founding/converting.

Is there any reason why Tleilaxu should need a tech for their religion? You found a city on turn 1-2. It could immediately found the religion and become the holy city. This is easier to implement, since I don't have to worry about any tech effect on the religion spread.

Normally, you have the opportunity to have "no state religion", and you have to convert with a turn of anarchy. Should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to have no state religion, or should the game force a conversion when the religion is founded? Similarly, should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to choose later on, to convert to "no religion"?

Is there any reason why Tleilaxu should need a tech for their religion? You found a city on turn 1-2. It could immediately found the religion and become the holy city. This is easier to implement, since I don't have to worry about any tech effect on the religion spread.

There is no reason, as long as you are sure that immediately founding the religion will also generate a holy city; sometimes initial foundings like this say "religion founded" but don't actually generate a holy city that spreads the religion or where the shrine can be built.


Normally, you have the opportunity to have "no state religion", and you have to convert with a turn of anarchy. Should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to have no state religion, or should the game force a conversion when the religion is founded? Similarly, should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to choose later on, to convert to "no religion"

I see no particular harm in letting them be no-religion if they want; they miss the extra culture and happiness that way, and we could arguably make some of their buildings require Supremacy state religion. So if they're willing to give up biology labs, axolotl tanks and the happy/culture bonus in exchange for avoiding diplomacy penalties then let them.
The AI will always adopt state religion, so its only humans we are worrying about.
I don't feel strongly either way.

I have gotten the Tleilaxu spread mechanism to work (automatically in any city they found). This is standalone python and relatively straightforward.

I have a proof of concept for religions which are forbidden to civs. This is more complicated, and my implementation is definitely not releaseable. There are python hooks to prevent civs from founding religions, but no way to prevent a civ from converting. So I have added an internal function, CvReligion::isForbidden(CivilizationTypes eCiv). It means each religion, can list which civilizations are not allowed to use it. So far this is hard-coded into sdk, but I will have to make it an xml list field before releasing it. Then I have sprinkled calls to isForbidden into all the right places, so that civs cannot found or convert to their forbidden religions.

I have a user interface design question, however. In the tech chooser, the hover help for a tech is short, and says, "First to research founds Qizarate". Now, this is sometimes true and sometimes not. If the religion is forbidden to your civ, you will not found even though you are first. Should the hover help say, "Not allowed to civ 1, civ 2, civ 3" the whole list? Or just "Not allowed for you"? Or nothing at all (which will be confusing)?

I will ask the Warhammer team how religions are blocked, I know we have it there.

"First to research founds A (available only to X)", or "First to research founds B (unavailable to Y, Z)" are both fine, whichever is fewer.

We can also talk more about which religions should/should not be adoptable by which civs.

My first impression is:
Imperium, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu and Fremen.
Landsraad, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu and Fremen.
Shai-Hulad, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu. (and Corrino? and Harkonnen?)
Messianism, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu (and Corrino? and Harkonnen?)
Quizarate, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu? (and Corrino? and Harkonnen?)
Technocracy, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu and Bene Gesserit.
Tleilaxu, adoptable only by Tleilaxu.

We can also talk more about which religions should/should not be adoptable by which civs.

This is given in your original design, modulo some name switching. I am implementing based on my spreadsheet a few posts back. (Posts 37-38)

This is given in your original design, modulo some name switching.

Yes, but I'm happy to be more flexible if people want; I don't feel strongly about that part of the design.

I will ask the Warhammer team how religions are blocked, I know we have it there.IIRC FfH was the 1st mod to allow this kinda thing. It's set up there in the LeaderHeadInfos. We're using the FF code, of course, in WHoC. And that mechanic transfers over. The code uses an integer of -100 to 100 for whether a leader will adopt a religion. You'll find this at the end of each <LeadeHeadInfo>. For example:

___________<ReligionWeightModifiers>
_________________<ReligionWeightModifier>
_______________________<ReligionType>RELIGION_EVIL</ReligionType>
_______________________<iWeightModifier>-20</iWeightModifier>
________________</ReligionWeightModifier>
________________<ReligionWeightModifier>
______________________<ReligionType>RELIGION_GOOD</ReligionType>
______________________<iWeightModifier>-20</iWeightModifier>
________________<ReligionWeightModifier>
__________</ReligionWeightModifiers>
_____</LeaderHeadInfo>

(The "____"s represent spaces in the XML code.)

By setting the <iWeightModifier> to -100, you can prevent a leader from adopting a certain religion. Or alternatively, by setting it to 100, you can cause a leader to always adopt that religion, provided the leader has the religion in 1 or more of its cities.


That is the easiest way I know of.

That is the easiest way I know of.

But does this prevent a *human* player from adopting a particular religion as their state religion, or does it just tell an AI not to?

I believe it just prevents the AI from doing so. If you wanna block both, may I suggest you attach the religions to techs and block certain civs from certain religious techs. This is somewhat unwieldy, as it may require a reworking of your tech tree.

I don't think anything else is involved, I switched it pretty easily for AI/human in WH just by changing the leaderhead weights per the thread below.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=299145
Well, give it a try and see.

If you look in our current gamefonts (enlarged pics attached) - there are a lot of custom religion icons already in there. I'd suggested using some of these as placeholders. There's a lot to choose from. That's what I did for the bonus resources - just picked things from the current gamefont that looked vaguely like the commodity in question. Presumably, somewhere there's the icons to go with all these religions - do they come with RevolutionDCM? Or perhaps the Rapture mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=353) since I suspect jonnysmith did this gamefont work and based it on his mod gamefont which has a zillion religions in it. There's even the CHOAM symbol in there which must be from when Dune Wars had CHOAM as a corporation.

My thoughts on your first draft icons. I'd like to have a stab at them, but I won't have much time until possibly next weekend - which is why I suggest going with the placeholder logos to circumvent gamefont work that we might have to repeat if we refine the icons.

I don't really like using the CHOAM symbol for Landsraad - membership of the two bodies overlap, but they are not the same thing. The CHOAM entry in the Dune Encyclopedia (http://www.thedune.ru/duneenc/download/DUNE_ENCYCLOPEDIA.pdf) is worth reading (people debate whether it is canon - but we're not all that canonical anyway with the Ordos, etc). I can think

For Mahdi (Messianism) I prefer something like a dark silhouetted figure with a glowing aura around them. Flaming swords are not especially Dune for me.

Perhaps cogs for Technocracy? Or some kind of stylised circuit board style thing?

I think the worm symbol will need to be more stylised if it's going to work at gamefont size. I was thinking do a cream on brown version of our current barbarian symbol.

Some kind of lion for Imperium I think, but it would need to be slightly different from the Corrino flag.

DNA for the Tleilaxu is OK, but I think their religion should be separated from their biological activities perhaps, in which case we should have something more abstract. I suggest we should use the name Tleilaxu Zensufism rather than Supremacy. We need to capture the fact that they are secretly organized along theistic lines.

No ideas for a Qizarate logo yet.

I think the best approach is to go with placeholder icons, until I have a chance to rustle up some new ones. When the gameplay aspects are built and bedded in, we can roll in some more polished art.

I think we should go with Temple of Alia as the Qizarate shrine. This means swapping in Lady Margot Fenring as the second BG leader instead of Alia. I would have done this already if I'd come up with a good leaderhead. Do you think anyone would be confused/upset if we used Mohiam from Children of Dune for Margot? She certainly looks different enough...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229161&stc=1&d=1254043500

How about true Lady Margot?

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll196/fenring1/CCI20090929_00000.jpg

The problem we have is that all the other leaderheads are from TV/film stills and one made from an illustration might look out of place. I can have a play with it though and see if I can make it match the others somehow. Otherwise I think the Children of Dune Mohiam is a reasonable way to go.

Otherwise I think the Children of Dune Mohiam is a reasonable way to go.

Agreed. The card looks strange.

@ Ahriman, redirecting from the modpack thread around post #125. You mentioned that you were going to experiment with the missionary spread rate and perhaps the prerequisite tech for religions. I am working on the forbidden religion feature but it is a little painful. As a change of pace, I thought I would go through and update the unit names and building names and building art for the religions to match the design. This will involve changing file Civ4ReligionInfos.xml.

If you have also changed this file, it will be a little complicated to merge. (Not impossible, just complicated.) Have you changed this file, or do you plan to change it in the next couple of days? If you have a version you like, it would be helpful if you post just that file, or PM it to me. This will keep our local versions mostly in sync.

I did tweak the file (attached), but haven't tested it significantly; I can't really tune the spread rates without some of the python spread features (like: automatically spreads to a conquered city, automatically removed when another religion is spread to the city, automatically spread to a newly founded city, etc.)

It was only 5 mins of work, so I don't mind redoing it at a later stage.

Did the leaderhead =-100 thing not work out for blocking religions?

Did the leaderhead =-100 thing not work out for blocking religions?

I appreciate the suggestions from the warhammer team. But the feature you/they were mentioning is only part of FF. It is not part of base civ. From the description it does not seem that this prevents the human player from converting, which is a key part of your design.

Since I have already mostly implemented the forbidden civ code, I will not try to separate out this piece from FF.

I can't really tune the spread rates without some of the python spread features (like: automatically spreads to a conquered city, automatically removed when another religion is spread to the city, automatically spread to a newly founded city, etc.)

I have thought about that and it is still a little challenging. For example, "automatically removed when another religion appears". This means that when the religion spreads along trade routes, it cannot enter a city with another religion. It also means that a missionary who tries to spread it in a city with another religion will automatically fail. It also means that the AI must not try to send a missionary to a city, where it knows the spread will fail; or else it will keep sending missionaries there in a steady stream.

Don't forget the theocracy effect, which prevents the religion spreading.
Maybe you can hijack this somehow.

For example, "automatically removed when another religion appears". This means that when the religion spreads along trade routes, it cannot enter a city with another religion. It also means that a missionary who tries to spread it in a city with another religion will automatically fail.

This was not my intention.

So, this feature was in Imperium religion. My design intention was:

1. Imperium religion is present in a city. Another religion arrives: imperium gets removed.
2. Another religion is present in a city. Imperium arrives; imperium stays, the city has 2 religions.

So my intention was that when a new religion was added *on top of* imperium, it would be removed, but that this would not be the same as imperium being added on top of another religion.

Also: it was implied by some of the stuff on religion spread that trade-route spread doesn't happen once a religion is already in a city.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4072270&postcount=4
If a city already has religion, doReligion is does nothing.

I'm not sure if this is true though.

Maybe it would be sufficient for Imperium to be removed if another religion was added to that city *by missionary*.

The intention was for Imperium to be a religion that would spread widely in the early game, but then would be superseded by conquest or the late-game religions.

This was intended both to capture the status quo -> new ideas superseding it theme, and be a mechanic that would make "late" game religions worth pursuing (in vanilla civ and in most mods the late-game religions are generally not worth pursuing or adopting at all, because the early game ones have spread far and wide beforehand).

So, this feature was in Imperium religion. My design intention was:
1. Imperium religion is present in a city. Another religion arrives: imperium gets removed.
2. Another religion is present in a city. Imperium arrives; imperium stays, the city has 2 religions.

This is identical to spread of Tleilaxu plague. If the game removes Imperium from a city, but Imperium is present in an adjacent city, the game will spread Imperium back to the first city unless we add code to prevent that. You would see that at best, Imperium temporarily disappears from a city for a few turns. I don't believe that captures the behavior you wanted.

Unless the code has been modified, religions do not spread to cities with another religion.
Unless a missionary is involved, of course.

You guys clearly need to play the game (plain old as shipped, or only lightly moded) more!

Perhaps I have never noticed this. Many times I have cities with multiple religions after no action on my part. You are saying this can only happen due to a missionary "attack"? That certainly removes the need for one part of the project. Still, for the case of a "weak" religion, I assume a missionary attempting to spread this religion into a city with any religions should automatically fail, and therefore the AI should never send missionaries where it knows they will fail.

If the game removes Imperium from a city, but Imperium is present in an adjacent city, the game will spread Imperium back to the first city unless we add code to prevent that. You would see that at best, Imperium temporarily disappears from a city for a few turns.

Unless the code has been modified, religions do not spread to cities with another religion.

This was what I thought, from the "doReligion does nothing" comment. So I thought that the Imperium religion would *not* disappear temporarily; the new religion arrived, so the only way to get Imperium back would be with a missionary.

Still, for the case of a "weak" religion, I assume a missionary attempting to spread this religion into a city with any religions should automatically fail, and therefore the AI should never send missionaries where it knows they will fail.

Imperium is not supposed to be a "weak" religion, it is supposed to be an "easily supplanted" religion. Is there a parameter that controls missionary spread chance for a particular religion? Maybe we could tweak it down slightly.

I'd leave the AI missionary behavior untouched, its probably fine.

My fear I suppose is that you could have the early spread of Imperium from the shrine, have everyone adopt Imperium, and then even as other religions spread through them, the AIs would instantly replace Imperium in their own cities with missionaries (because AIs spread their state religion).
And my fear at the other end is that Imperium could be displaced too easily.
It will take some playtest, I guess.

In post 37 (text) and post 38 (spreadsheet) we have some ideas for buildings. There are 28 (7 religions x monastery, temple, cathedral, shrine) potential buildings. So far, most of them are empty or "??". I am almost done with the spread mechanisms and forbidden religions. Next up is to enter the xml for the buildings.

Is there any existing building art in vanilla or mods which captures the concept of the religious buildings? I can shuffle the building art around at the same time as the rest of the xml.

I don't think we need three religious buildings for each religion. Two is probably reasonable though.

I have no particular ideas for art.

It would be great to get some suggestions from others for the buildings. I still have no particular ideas for a second Messianism building.

Expanding slightly on the post 37 design (some additions, some tweaks):

1. Galactic Empire
Great shrine: Imperial palace. Adds +2 free noble specialist, +1culture per city with this religion, +1 gold to all noble and great noble specialists in all your cities. Spreads religion. Can be built by great priest, great noble.

Unique buildings: Feudal estate. Gives +1 happy, +2 culture, +20% culture. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to noble. Requires tech: feudalism.

Fiefdom. Gives +50% culture, +1 happy, +1 happy if Landsraad is state religion, +1 happy with Sardaukar cooperation resource, requires 3 feudal estates. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to noble. Requires tech: imperium.

2. Landsraad
Great shrine: CHOAM Headquarters. not actually a shrine, but instead another spice corporation hq (and no executives to spread it), that competes with all the other spice corporations (so you can't have both in the same city). Spreads CHOAM religion (not the same as the corporation). Founded by a great trader or a great priest. Gives +2 trader GPPs. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader.

Unique buildings: CHOAM outpost. Gives +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader. Requires tech: spice economy.

CHOAM Directorate (cathedral replacement). Requires 3 CHOAM outposts. Gives +1 trade route, +50% trade route yield, gives +1 happy from each of the various luxury rade goods (semuta, opafire, soostone, etc.) Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader. Requires tech: CHOAM.
Allows 2 citizens to be converted to trader.

3. Messianism. (Alternatives: Way of the Mahdi, Way of Muad'Dib)

Great shrine: Dune Messiah (or: Prophecies of the Mahdi). Gives -100% war weariness in this city. Gives -25% war weariness empirewide. Gives +10% military production per city with this religion. So the shrine becomes a unit factory powerhouse. Gives +1 priest GPPs.

Unique buildings: Temple of the Mahdi. +1 happy, +1 culture, +15% military production, +1 unhappy per non-state religion. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. +10% military production with Fremen water debt. Requires theocracy tech.

4. Tleilaxu Supremacy
Great shrine: Prophecies of Bandalong. +4 culture, +2 free priest, +1 hammer output to priests and great priests in all cities. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to priests.

Unique buildings: Zensufi temple. Adds +1 happy, +1 culture, allows 2 citizens to be converted to priest. Requires Faith.

Biology lab. Adds +15% beakers, +1 happy, allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires Academies tech.

Axolotl tanks. Requires genetic manipulation. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to priest.


5. Qizarate
Great shrine: Grand Palace of Arakeen. +1 gold per city with Quizarate religion, +1 culture per city with Quizarate religion. No unhappiness in the city. +2 great prophet GPPS.

Unique buildings: Quizarate temple. +1 happy, -30% city maintenance. Allows 2 citizens to be coverted to priests.

The Golden Path. Gives +5 happy, +5 health, -25% beakers, -50% trade route yield. Requires golden path tech.


6. Way of Shai-Hulad.

Holy shrine: Shrine of the worm. +2 culture. +1 gold per city with this religion present. +2 priest GPPs.

Unique buildings: Arrakian Temple, +1 culture, +1 water, +1happy with Fremen water debt.
Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires tech: faith.

Arrakian Cathedral. +1happy with incense, +1 happy if Shai-hulad is state religion, allows 2 citiznes to be converted to priests, +50% culture. Requires theocracy tech. Requires 3 Arrakian temples.

7. Technocracy

Holy shrine: The Great Processor. +2 culture, no GPPs (its not encouraging human development), +25% beakers, +1 beaker per city with this religion. Can be founded by great prophet, great scientist.

Unique buildings: Automated factory. +25% hammer production, +2 unhappy. +1 happy with Thinking Machines resource. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to engineer. +25% hammers with power. Requires industrialism tech.

Computerized research center. +25% beaker production, +2 unhappy. +1happy with Thinking Machines resource. +25% beakers with power. requires cybernetics tech.

Robotic power plant. Provides power with Thinking machines resource. requires thinking machines tech.

David; if you're working on the python spread mechanics and such for religions, once you get those done, if you can post those for me somehow then I can go through and tune the religion spread rates and missionary costs a little.

I finished the religion restrictions and spread mechanics last week, and I included your spread rates and missionary costs. I didn't release 1.5.5 because of the homeworld screen thing, but I will definitely put it up this weekend. I am not sure if deliverator or koma13 will have anything this weekend; I am hoping a couple of volunteers from the modpack thread will have civilopedia text; and I want to take a crack at the Mentat build / move AI and city effects.

And how about Shai hulud with Arrakis Future civic. Such things should be avoided imho. may be add own civics for every religion like in FFH?
This adds flavor and change following religion change.
Or at least requirement to be in certain civic to adopt religion.
In this way we get some religions opposed more to other certain ones (as CHOAM to Shai Hulud (Arrakis Paradise vs Arrakis Future) lets say)

I finished the religion restrictions and spread mechanics last week, and I included your spread rates and missionary costs.


Ok, its a reasonable start point, I will tune it once released.

And how about Shai hulud with Arrakis Future civic. Such things should be avoided imho.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you arguing that followers of the Shai-Hulad religion shouldn't be able to adopt the Arrakis Paradise civic?
I would strongly disagree; before the Atreides arrive in Dune, the Fremen are basically following the Shai Hulad religion (venerating Shai-Hulad) while working to transform Arrakis (Paradise civic). They don't really realize that terraforming Arrakis will destroy the worms.

I don't really think we need to block particular civic/religion combinations.

OK, this is "done". A few posts back I had copied all the design elements into a spreadsheet and annotated the items I don't know how to implement in red. Please find attached an updated spreadsheet. There are some additional items I did not know how to implement, in orange. Also, there are some changes I made, in blue. For example, I decided to leave the automated factory as available to all, instead of limiting it to Technocrat religion.

For example, I decided to leave the automated factory as available to all

I don't really like this. Technocracy religion is very late and only spreads manually. The whole point of it is to have powerful buildings that are exclusive to technocracy.
If technocracy doesn't provide unique buildings, then what is it for? And those buildings only really make sense by following the technocracy religion. Again that was the point; if you want those buildings in your cities, you have to spread the technocracy religion to them.

"+1 culture per city with this religion" is in orange... but I am surprised that you do not know how to do this; one of the christianity shrines in the old religion (ie anything before 1.5.3) gave +1 culture rather than +1 gold. So this was already in the mod.

I would rename the Tleilaxu stuff into Zensufi, or Tleilaxu, rather than Supreme. Supreme temple just sounds weird.
I also quite liked "Prophecies of Bandalong" or something. Much more flavorful.

the Golden Path building needs to require the Golden Path tech.
Qizarate missionaries should also be extremely expensive (given that they are also basically an inquisitor).

Technocracy religion is very late and only spreads manually. The whole point of it is to have powerful buildings that are exclusive to technocracy.

Good question. These two buildings also require thinking machines, so it seems to make a 100% overlap with the thinking machine resource. Are there some other powerful specialty buildings we could add, instead of mixing these two concepts?

I would rename the Tleilaxu stuff into Zensufi, or Tleilaxu, rather than Supreme. Supreme temple just sounds weird. I also quite liked "Prophecies of Bandalong" or something. Much more flavorful.

I thought about these, and tried to pick names with a theme. "Tleilaxu temple" seemed too plain, and "Prophecies" seemed like an odd name for a building. Since the religion has "Supreme" in the name, I thought carrying that as a theme would be helpful. Any other suggestions for a thematic set of names?

The Golden Path building needs to require the Golden Path tech.

Are you sure? That is a very late stage tech, and there would be nothing you could really do with the religion in between founding it, at Academies, and building temples, six tech tiers later.

Qizarate missionaries should also be extremely expensive (given that they are also basically an inquisitor).

Easy to tweak in the unitinfos.xml file, iCost field. What value do you prefer?

why is imperial lost when other religions spread? what's the reasoning behind that ?

These two buildings also require thinking machines, so it seems to make a 100% overlap with the thinking machine resource. Are there some other powerful specialty buildings we could add, instead of mixing these two concepts?

The two concepts are *deliberately* mixed.

My intention was:
Technocracy religion is required to build automated factory and research center.
These buildings do *not* require thinking machines, but gain a synergy bonus with thinking machines resource and possibly an additional synergy bonus with Ixian race.

The "gains extra X with power", and the only power plant gives power only with thinking machines resource does the first.
UB replacements without an unhappiness bonus would do the second.

So for example we could have:
Automated factory. Requires cybernetics tech. Requires technocracy religion. +2 unhappy. +25% hammers. +25% hammers with power.

Ixian factory (replaces automated factory). Identical to automated factory except no happiness penalty.

Power plant. Requires thinking machines tech. Provides power with thinking machines resource. +1 unhappy.

Ixian power plant. Same as power plant except no unhappy.

I thought about these, and tried to pick names with a theme. "Tleilaxu temple" seemed too plain, and "Prophecies" seemed like an odd name for a building. Since the religion has "Supreme" in the name, I thought carrying that as a theme would be helpful. Any other suggestions for a thematic set of names?

There was a suggestion (which I would be fine with) to change the name of the religion to Tleilaxu Zensufism. And then you could have Zensufi temple.
The shrine isn't really a building; it is an institution or organization or whatever; just whatever it is that causes pilgrims to want to come see it.
Just because it is a building in civ engine terms doesn't mean that it has to represent a physical structure.
For example, think of the "Darwin's Voyage" type wonders. Its not a physical building, its an innovation.

That is a very late stage tech, and there would be nothing you could really do with the religion in between founding it, at Academies, and building temples, six tech tiers later.

There are two buildings: the Golden Path, and the Temple. The temple could be buildable immediately, as could the shrine, but the Golden Path building should come at its own tech. Also, the golden path tech has very few pre-requisities, so can be beelined from *much* earlier if desired.
You also get the missionary, who is hugely powerful because it wipes all other religions. The Quizarate starts spreading their influence and knocking out competitors long before the Golden Path is really reached (or even begun).

why is imperial lost when other religions spread? what's the reasoning behind that ?

The idea is that the Imperial religion represents the Status Quo present at the start of Dune; the rule by Padishah emperors (if someone other than Corrino founds the religion, then assume that the corrino emperor is a puppet).
The religion spreads very fast, and so many civs will convert to it initially, but then over time the old order status quo is replaced by the new ideas; either by belief in the Mahdi, by the bureacratic Quizarate, or by a technocratic return to thinking machines.

It is supposed to be a powerful and influential early game religion, who is gradually wiped out by later religions.

This is supposed to be both thematic (the destruction of the old order is one of the major themes of Dune) and good gameplay; in civ normally only the early founded religions get anywhere; you normally see Hinduism and Judiasm spread over the world, with very little christianity or islam. And we have religions founded much later than either of those. So we need the earlier religions to be wiped away so that some civs will adopt the new ones.

Some thoughts on naming things...

I think Qizarate Prophet should be renamed Quizara Tafwid - this is the term for priests of the Qizarate. It seems it can be used both as a plural or singular. "A Qizara Tafwid stood nearby when I came dripping from that water. He had not entered the sea." Farok in Dune Messiah.

I still prefer the Temple of Alia to Grand Palace of Arrakeen. I can live with the fact that Alia is a leader as well. The Temple really represents what the Qizarate is all about.

On a side note - I thought it would be quite interesting to have an Amazon Guard military unit associated with the Qizarate. Role playing a Qizarate Alia with Amazon Guards would be fun.

Shai-Hulud Prophet... I guess the most appropriate religious leader for the pre-Muad'Dib religion would be Sayyadina. Prophecy should be more associated the Mahdi religion.

Perhaps Mahdi Zealot instead of Mahdi Fighter. Or perhaps Chouhada is even better.

Not sure about Temple of Muad'Dib for the Mahdi building. Shrine of the Prophecy or something like that perhaps. Since the name Muad'Dib can equally well be used for Mahdi and Qizarate buildings I think it would be better to remove the name from both.

I agree that the Supreme Shrine and Supreme Temple should be renamed. Zensufi Shrine and Zensufi Temple are OK, although something with Tleilax/Tleilaxu in it would be fine too as it is a separatist religion.

Arrakian Temple and Arrakian Cathedral...

I have pointed out before that Arrakeen is the correct adjective relating to Arrakis. Gurney's song in Dune refers to Arrakeen girls and Children of Dune refers to "Arrakeen cities" when referring to multiple cities on Arrakis. Frank Herbert doesn't use the adjective Arrakian anywhere.

Regardless, I think there must be more flavourful names for the worm worshipping religion. Sanctuary of the Maker, Chamber of the Gods Below, etc.

I think Qizarate Prophet should be renamed Quizara Tafwid
I think we should always try keeping some 'common' words in it (prohpet not tafwid), this way it is easier to handle for people having no Dune kowlegde. This in general is very important to maintain a balance between Dune geeks and players new to Dune.
The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.

The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.

I agree. I was actually thinking of making the name text much longer, using the definitions deliverator originally gave:

1) Ayat - The signs of life
2) Wali - The untried youth
3) Mihna - The season for testing
4) Hajra - The journey of seeking
5) Tahaddi - The challenge of combat
6) Ijaz - The undeniable prophecy
7) Alam Al-Mithal - The mystical world

I suspect the menus would be too long, or something else would look messed up, so I did not try it. What do you think?

I think Qizara is close enough to Qizarate for people to make the connection. The Tafwid can be dropped if necessary.

The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.

I'd argue that they're no more useless than the previous ones:

Birth Of Arakis
Cycle of the Worm
Golden Path
Awakening
Shadow Of Usul
Desert Bloom
Shy Hulud (sic)

The only one that is vaguely useful is Birth of Arrakis since that implies 'first', but that doesn't really work with the vague-post-apocalyptic-backstory. I'm open to better suggestions for the era names. We can revert to English words, if there are appropriate ones to use and they have some kind of sensible progression. Ideally, the word would relate somehow to the techs in that era so Survival might be a good name for the first one.

Well, I just want to say that as a player not too much involved into the dune universe, it is much easier to connect to the former era names than the current ones...

That's fine, we can rethink the Era names no problem.

I think we should always try keeping some 'common' words in it (prohpet not tafwid), this way it is easier to handle for people having no Dune kowlegde. This in general is very important to maintain a balance between Dune geeks and players new to Dune.

I agree with this in general.

The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.


I haven't had a chance to check out 1.5.5 yet, but did they just get put in as "Ayat" rather than "Ayat - The signs of life"?
I think the explanatory taglines are good.

I still prefer the Temple of Alia to Grand Palace of Arrakeen.

I don't particularly mind. The Grand Palace could be a regular wonder.

I am relatively agnostic about the others.

Not sure about Temple of Muad'Dib for the Mahdi building.

How about Temple of the Messiah?

For the eras, how about shortening the English part but leaving it in. I changed the last one to make it shorter.

1) Ayat - Seeds
2) Wali - Youth
3) Mihna - Testing
4) Hajra - Seeking
5) Tahaddi - Strength
6) Ijaz - Prophecy
7) Jannah - Paradise

For the religion building/units, I agree it is hard to make the names clear to a Dune *non* expert, but still have some flavor. How about:

Grand Palace -> Temple of Alia
Mahdi Fighter -> Mahdi Zealot
Temple of Muad'Dib -> Temple of the Messiah
Tleilaxu Supremacy -> Tleilaxu Zensufism
Supreme Shrine -> Zensufi Shrine
Supreme Temple -> Zensufi Temple
Arrakian Temple -> Temple of the Maker
Arrakian Cathedral -> Cathedral of Shai-Hulud ?

The buildings/units sound good, but how about Altar of Shai-Hulud? It is hard to imagine the Fremen having Cathedrals when they live mostly in caves.

Not sure about the Eras, but I don't have any better suggestions at the moment.

This sounds fine.

The buildings/units sound good, but how about Altar of Shai-Hulud? It is hard to imagine the Fremen having Cathedrals when they live mostly in caves.


I don't know, how it's in englisch, but in german you can also say "cathedral" to a big...err..."cave dome". -> that would maybe fit.

"Wo ist der Dom?" is one of the few lines of German I remember from the single year I studied it at school. :)

The best equivalent English word meaning "big cave" I can think of is Cavern. Cavern of Shai-Hulud?

Also, I'll ease back on the Dune geekery (for now), but can we have Qizarate Priest instead of Qizarate Prophet please?

In a few previous posts we were fine-tuning the Qizarate Golden Path building and the Qizarate missionary. I have made the cost of the missionary 100, compared to inquisitor at 80 and most other missionaries at 60. However, currently the GP building functions as a monastery, since it is the requirement for the missionary. This makes it early in the tech tree. Ahriman suggested the GP building should require the GP tech, which is rather late game.

In vanilla civs, the monastery is required for the missionary, and both monastery and temple are early in the tech tree. Should we change Qizarate so the missionary requires a temple, and then move the GP building very late in the tech tree? Or leave GP as an early stage prerequisite for the missionary?

Should we change Qizarate so the missionary requires a temple, and then move the GP building very late in the tech tree?

This is my preference. We don't really *have* monastary buildings here. There's no particular reason why missionaries need to be tied to something that you call a monastary.

As mentioned in Art thread, part of SLV07 project i need help of graphic design of Era / Shrine popups.

1. Keep them monochromatic / make full color?
2. Please quote this , if you have suggestions what should be portrayed on each era popup, and write your suggestion please
1) Ayat - Seeds
2) Wali - Youth
3) Mihna - Testing
4) Hajra - Seeking
5) Tahaddi - Strength
6) Ijaz - Prophecy
7) Jannah - Paradise

3.
Same for shrines:
Shai-Hulud
Mahdi
Imperial
Landsraad
Qizarate
Technocrathy
Tl.Zensufism

I think proper BIK videos for the religious shrines are better than static images.

I'd like to try this guide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=218239) at some point.

I didn't read that guide but I have the knowledge to create proper bik movies. :yup:

Ok then what about Eras? Biks too? Or some 2d art? And what content for it?

Ok then what about Eras? Biks too? Or some 2d art? And what content for it?
Hmm, I think the problem with making an era movie is that there is no big concept/theme behind the current eras. It's just some seperator. I would prefer having them more meaningful/thematic (like chapters in a book), but then we would need a real story... :)

I think the Eras can just be static images. There is no real gameplay impact to Eras - it is basically cosmetic. I haven't really thought what would make appropriate images for the Eras. There is a vague theme to the Eras. They are roughly stages in the life of an individual Fremen. For example, Mihna is the season for testing Fremen youths who wish admittance to manhood. You can look up the meanings of the other Fremen words here (http://www.indopedia.org/Dune_terminology.html).

I wont put growing freeman on those pics, i need help to separate all existing Dune story with their viusals to game eras. Then, i can work and build some collages from them. Atm i dont see clearly what will distinct visually Ayat from Wali for example.

I wont put growing freeman on those pics

Actually that is not a bad idea. Seeds could show a family scene with a new child. Youth could show a Fremen child getting their first stillsuit, or entering the desert for the first time. Testing could show a Fremen teenager attempting to ride their first worm. Some of the later word choices are not perfect; I suppose we could add fatherhood as one, to focus better on life stages.

Actually that is not a bad idea. Seeds could show a family scene with a new child. Youth could show a Fremen child getting their first stillsuit, or entering the desert for the first time. Testing could show a Fremen teenager attempting to ride their first worm. Some of the later word choices are not perfect; I suppose we could add fatherhood as one, to focus better on life stages.

Ok, i'll make some sketches soon. It would be monochromatic as in vanilla. Color illustration is huge work and not necessary. Please continue, and yes , some readjustment may be necessary.

I don't think the all need to directly relate to the stage of a Fremen life. We can make it more vague.

Seeds - a desert flower in the foreground with desert scene in the background.
Wali - a child overlooking the desert from a sietch
Minha - a young Fremen riding first worm (they do this at approx. 12 years of age)
Hajra - a Fremen troop moving through rocky area towards a sietch perhaps
Tahaddi - a fist clutching a Crysknife in the Fremen challenge to combat
Ijaz - Perhaps a scene of Arrakeen, Temple of Alia or the Keep with a figure looking out
Jannah - Water flowing through the desert

I don't think the all need to directly relate to the stage of a Fremen life. We can make it more vague.

Seeds - a desert flower in the foreground with desert scene in the background.
Wali - a child overlooking the desert from a sietch
Minha - a young Fremen riding first worm (they do this at approx. 12 years of age)
Hajra - a Fremen troop moving through rocky area towards a sietch perhaps
Tahaddi - a fist clutching a Crysknife in the Fremen challenge to combat
Ijaz - Perhaps a scene of Arrakeen, Temple of Alia or the Keep with a figure looking out
Jannah - Water flowing through the desert

I like this.

I like Deliverators version more as well. Ok, so you ok with keeping charcoal style?

Ahriman, I've been looking over your design and I'm not sure all the religion commerce yields are what you suggested/expected.

The best way is probably for you to review the file Civ4ReligionInfo.xml. Each religion has 3 sets of three commerce tags:

iGlobalReligionCommerce - Increases the gold, beakers, and culture per turn for the religion's shrine by this amount.
iHolyCityCommerce - Increases the gold, beakers, and culture per turn in the holy city by this amount.
iStateReligionCommerce - Increases the gold, beakers, and culture per turn in the religion's cities by this amount.

See here (http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4ReligionInfo) for more.

Within each multi-line tag the first value is the gold yield, the second beakers and the third culture.

Care to review this and post an amended file?

Ahriman, I've been looking over your design and I'm not sure all the religion commerce yields are what you suggested/expected.


I haven't changed any of these. Aren't they all still +1 happy, +1 culture for the statereligion, +4 culture for the holy city, and whatever the specific shrine gives for the wonder?

What do you think is wrong?

I considered changing some of them so that for eg landsraad gave a gold bonus instead of happiness, but didn't change anything yet.

From my little play, it does feel like moving the missionaries to require the temples (and dropping imperial missionary to national limit 1) made a big difference; Imperium is much less dominant.

A summary of the current values, they are not the vanilla defaults:

Shrine (GlobalReligionCommerce) / Holy City / State Religion

Imperial: +1 culture / +1 culture / +1 culture
Landsraad: +1 gold / +1 culture / +1 culture
Mahdi: +1 gold / +1 gold / +1 culture
Qizarate: +1 gold / +1 culture / +1 culture
Shai Hulud: +1 gold / +1 culture / +1 culture
Technocracy: +1 beaker / +1 gold / +1 culture
Tleilaxu: +1 gold / +1 gold / +1 culture

Values are per turn.

I am just looking for comfirmation that these are correct and make sense.

The happiness bonus from State Religion is independent of these commerce adjustments.

For some reason the pedia doesn't show the first of these values, just the holy city and state religion values.

The Landsraad shrine should not give +1 gold per city with the religion, if we have it working as a spice hq (I haven't tested). It should give 0.
Holy city values could arguably be +2 culture rather than +1.

Mahdi +1 gold for the shrine is a placeholder, until we can figure out how to make it give military production (which is the design goal) - which would obviously require sdk changes.

+1 gold from technocracy, mahdi and tleilaxu holy cities look weird. They should probably go to culture.

Otherwise, they're probably fine.

The shrine values *are* shown in the pedia IIRC, but they're shown in the stats of the shrine wonder, not the religion.

I don't know if this is just my bad play, but I really struggled to get the CHOAM Headquarters built after beelining to Great Houses to try it out. I couldn't get a Great Prophet for love nor money whereas I seemed to have loads of Great Scientist GPPs.

Could we make it buildable by a Great Scientist instead of a Great Prophet to help challenged players like me?

Hmm. Thinking about it, it would be pretty hard to build the shrine.

Its supposed to be buildable by both a great trader and a great prophet.
I guess the problem is, there aren't any trader slots early, so the only way you can really get it is with Faufreluches.
But the Landsraad outpost should give you a trader slot, no? Which should be available shortly after founding the religion.

Maybe we could add a trader slot to the weather scanner building?
I don't think a scientist would make sense, and that might make it too easy.

I think its ok for there to be a bit of challenge in founding the shrine, and to have to work a little to get the right specialists.