Designed to work in conjunction with the religion redesign.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330907

Still a work in progress... suggestions very welcome!
Incomplete but I am out of time for now.

The goal of civics is to:
a) Provide a range of different strategic options. Every civic should be useful in some circumstances; there should be no no-brainer civics choices. The opportunity cost of one civic is not being able to get others.
b) Add to Dune universe immersion.

Since my religion redesign is something of an "ethos" system, I eliminate the Religion civics category.
I'm considering replacing it with a Values system, though I worry that there is too much overlap.

My intention is for most of these techs to be available in the early-midgame, and so have fairly low tech requirements.

Government civics
Despotism
Tech tier (/20): 0
Effect: -25% war weariness. +10% city maintenance from distance.
Upkeep cost: Low

Feudalism (or: Hereditary Rule)
Tech tier (/20): ~5
Effect: +1 happiness per military unit stationed in a city. +1 free unit per 10 population.
Upkeep cost: low

Meritocracy
Tech tier (/20): 8
Upkeep cost: high
Effect: +50% Great people generation. +1 beaker per specialist. +1 culture per specialist.

Imperium.
Tech tier (/20): 7
Upkeep cost: low
Effect:
-50% city maintenance from number of cities. -50% city maintenance from city distance. -25% culture.

Theocracy.
Tech tier (/20): 5
Upkeep cost: High
Effect: No non-state religions cannot be spread within borders. -25% war weariness. +25% production for buildings in all cities with state religion. +1xp point for units built in cities with your state religion.

Legal civics
Trial by Combat: +10% military production.
Tech tier (/20): 0

Desert Law: +1 free unit per 5 population. +1 free xp for newly created units.
Upkeep low.
Tech tier (/20): 4

Great Convention (or maybe Landsraad Council): +1 happy in all cities, +100% culture.
Upkeep medium.
Tech tier (/20): 9

Imperial Fealty. Can draft 3 units per turn. +3 happy in 5 largest cities. Low upkeep.
Tech tier (/20): 10

Kanly: -10% military production. +4 free xp points for newly created units. Upkeep medium.
[Formal feud or vendetta under the rules of the Great Convention carried on according to the strictest limitations.]
Tech tier (/20): 10

War of Assassins
Low upkeep.
+100% espionage points. +10% war weariness.
[the purpose of the war of assassins is to prevent collateral damage from wars]
[seems weak, probably needs something else?]
Tech tier (/20): 10


Labor civics
Subsistence. Low upkeep, -10% worker build speed.
Tech tier (/20): 0

Slavery.
Requires tech:
Upkeep: medium
Effect: Can sacrifice population for production. +1 unhealth in all cities. +1unhappy in all cities. +1 hammers from shallow mine, deep mine, core mine, spice refinery.
[overlords with whips make people work harder]
Tech tier (/20): 5

Serfdom
Requires tech:
Upkeep: low
Effect: +50% worker improvement construction rate. Can sacrifice population for production.
Tech tier (/20): 5

Private property:
Upkeep cost: Medium
+100% growth rate for cottages. +1 gold from village, town. Can spend gold for production. +25% war weariness.
Tech tier (/20): 7

Faufreluches ["The rigid rule of class distinction enforced by the Imperium. 'A place for every man and every man in his place.] ie a caste system variant
Tech tier (/20): 9
Upkeep cost: low
Effect: allows unlimited nobles, traders, engineers. +1 gold per specialist.




Economy civics
These need to come earlier in the tech tree than they currently do.

Decentralization.. Low upkeep. No tech requirement.
Tech tier (/20): 0

Free trade
Tech tier (/20): 7
+1 free trade route per city.
Low upkeep.

Mercantilism.
Tech tier (/20): 8
No foreign trade routes. +1 free specialist per city. +1 commerce from refinery improvement.

Water discipline. High upkeep. +1 water from dew collectors, windtraps.
Tech tier (/20): 9

Planned economy
High upkeep
+1 hammer from village, town.
Tech tier (/20): 10

Arrakis future civics
Spice Economy.
Tech tier (/20): 6
Upkeep: medium
Effect:
-6 diplomacy penalty to way of liet users.
+1 hammer, +1 commerce from spice harvester improvement.
50% lower chance of spice resource being removed [can you tie the spice mechanics to civics?]

Neutral. No effect. no upkeep. Tech tier (/20):0

Way of Liet.
Tech tier (/20): 6
Upkeep: high
-6 diplomacy penalty to Spice Economy users.
Spice blows cannot spawn within friendly your cultural borders.
Allows construction of the Catchbasin and Reservoir buildings that trigger terraforming.

Are Faufreluches, Feudalism and Serfdom not quite similar conceptually? Faufreluches divided things up into feudal fiefs under which the lower class are effectively serfs. They are effectively two different names for Feudalism.

My impression was that Faufreluches was like a caste system; you could easily have a serfdom of peasants without also having very rigid classes for artisans, traders and nobles.

And you could easily have a caste system where the children of workers were workers and the children of farmers were farmers the children of merchants were merchants and no-one would ever marry outside their caste, without also having serfdom where the farmers didn't own their own land and were tied to that piece of land forever.

Feudalism could be renamed hereditary rule; the idea here was about dynastic succession of houses. You could easily have caste systems and or serfdom without dynastic succession; eg by military junta or dictatorship or even oligarchy.

Oligarchy is probably a good alternative civic, but my idea was that meritocracy could incorporate testing/exam organizations like the Guild, schools like the BG, and potentially a very benign House, and that oligarchy might not be sufficiently different from this.

Maybe meritocracy shoudl be a labor policy and oligarchy a government system?

I like the idea of civics that boost solar panels or turbines economies (we probably only need one or the other in this mod), but I can't honesty think of anything that would qualify.

Currently they're Imperial civics, but logically why would that be the case?

Good start. I haven't checked very carefully yet. I like the idea of eliminating the religion column. Did you mean to have Theocracy and the reference to state religion? I think there are a lot of special effects available in the different vanilla civics; it may be possible to use some of those to add a little more differentiation to them.

Yes, in my conception of theocracy it would prevent non-state religion spread (there was a missing NOT typo however).

it may be possible to use some of those to add a little more differentiation to them

Not sure what the "them" refers to. Civics in general?
I'm aware I think of what can be easily changed through civics (it isn't possible for eg to give bonuses to only a particular type of specialist), the hardest thing is in thinking of logically distinct civics that make sense in the Dune setting. Its hard, because basically all of the Houses really all have the same economic and governmental structure.

I looked a little more carefully. There are a couple of things which are in vanilla, which aren't in your design; maybe we can work them in. I could find "+ happiness in 5 largest cities", drafting, and "emancipation pushes unhappiness in other civs". It seems thematic somehow to use the emancipation mechanism for the cult of Muad'Dib once it starts to expand, but that introduces a linkage back to religions.

It is hard to list a specific tech as the prereq with the tree in flux; but if we consider a 20 tier tree, are there some which you think should come earlier vs later? Maybe you could fill in an approximate position using numbers, range 0-20 (0 for default ones.)

At some point we need to fill in which are the favorite civics of leaders. We have the ability to select hated civics also, but only one of each. We are currently using hated civic for "future of arrakis".

I don't have any specific suggestions, but the economics choices need to be broadened a little. Is there one which would make sense for spacers guild, which would be their favorite civic? Maybe Water Discipline would make more sense as a civic than anything else?

In the existing DW civics, there seem to be a lot which give +hammer bonus to improvements. You had suggested buildings to make cottages more relevant later in the game, and I had suggested civics; do you think there are enough improvement bonuses yet?

I should explain; I don't see the first post here as being a completed set of civics. There definitely need to be more, particularly economics, I just can't think of what they shoudl be.

I'd see most of the civics as being clustered pretty early, probably tier4-9 or so. There isn't really a logical "development" as there is in human history.

I'd like to see a civic that gave +1 hammer to villages and towns as an economy or legal civic (high maintenance cost). Free speech doesn't quite make sense for Dune; even the Atreides are partly just good propapgandists.

I'm not sure there is a logical civic to give empancipation happiness penalties; while everyone really on earth history wants to be free, I don't think there is a single future possibility that would be shared by the citizens of all factions.

I guess I could see Water Discipline as a civic. Maybe an Economy civic? Maybe that could give +1 water income to dew collectors and windtraps? High maintenance upkeep?

In terms of Favored civics:
Corrino: imperium
Atreides: private property (or maybe Kanly)
Harkonnen: slavery
Ix:
Ecaz: Hereditary rule, or Great convention, or Faufreluches
Ordos: Hereditary rule, or Great convention, or FaufreluchesBene TL: theocracy
Bene G: Meritocracy
Fremen: desert law
Trade guild:

Am I missing any?

*edit*
Made some changes to 1st post.
I think its important to try to keep specialist economy bonuses and cottage economy bonuses in the same civics categories, so you can get one or the other, not both.

Looks good. I think Imperial Fealty may be a little strong (both drafting and +happiness), and we need a name for the 5th economic one. Otherwise, I think it can drop into a new patch.

EDIT: Ooh, 2000th post! I am a Deity now! Bow before Me! :-)

I tend to think that drafting is pretty weak, but maybe thats my playstyle.
We can obviously tweak things later with some playtesting.

The one thing I think we're missing is something to encourage a turbine or solar farm economy, but I just can't think of anything particularly logical.

I guess the one thing with solar farms is that they have bad synergy with terraforming because of the -1 water; which is perhaps as it should be, terraforming means clouds means less output from solar cells.
So if you terraform, your solar farms reduce the value of this, or you go with more expensive turbines.

Welcome to the Deity club :-)

Name = ??
High upkeep
+1 hammer from village, town.
Tech tier (/20): 10

Perhaps 'Planned Economy'? Reading this made me think of the Communist ideal for some reason.

I have entered this into the xml. It will be available in the 1.4.6 huge patch release, which I hope to put out in the next 1-2 days. There are two effects which are listed in the first post, which I do not see how to get with xml changes. In general, if there is no vanilla civic which has an effect, there is no xml hook to get it.

1. +/- happiness at all cities. We can trigger this on a building, such as a barracks, but not globally. Health yes, happiness no.

2. +hammers for a building. Improvements yes, buildings no. At least I cannot find a flag to do it.

I do not have any specific feedback, but in general the benefits of these civics seem small compared to vanilla. Several civics have only one effect, such as water discipline. Also, there are four available maintenance costs: none, low, medium, high. None of the costs in the design are "none" and hardly any are "medium". Perhaps they can be spread out more.

1. Ok, put the +1 happy for Great Convention onto the barracks.

2. The hammer boosts were intended to be for improvements.
Slavery gives boosts to the mines (all 3 versions) and the spice harvester crawler (improvement built on spice tiles).
Planned economy gives bonus to the village and town improvements.

Agree with your other feedback.

I'd be happy to put the default (ie no tech requirement) civics to None civic maintenance.
Planned economy could move to medium upkeep or have an extra effect.
Free trade could boost trade route yields 25% - is that possible for civics?
Or maybe add a second +1 trade route in your 5 largest cities?
Meritocracy could go to medium upkeep.

I'd like War of Assassins to do something else, but I can't think of anything obvious.
Maybe give some bonus like + happiness to some of the spy buildings, like prison camps?

Forgot to include some of the intended issues with the Spice economy. It needs to be a big boost to compete with terraformed super-cities.

It does help that most AIs adopt spice economy, so there tend to be at most 3 terraformers; Atreides, Fremen and the human player, and everyone else hates them.

Put the +1 happy for Great Convention onto the barracks ... Slavery gives boosts to the mines (all 3 versions) and the spice harvester crawler ... I'd be happy to put the default (ie no tech requirement) civics to None civic maintenance ... Planned economy could move to medium upkeep or have an extra effect ... Free trade could boost trade route yields 25% ... Meritocracy could go to medium upkeep ... War of Assassins to give some bonus like + happiness to some of the spy buildings, like prison camps

Above changes done locally. Will be part of "my next patch", 1.4.8 I guess. Also:
* AH49, moved Faufreluches to Caste System tech and Meritocracy to Social Mobility tech
* Figured out AH50, could not convert to any religion. I caused this when I deleted the religion civics column. It turns out you must have a civic with the "bStateReligion" flag to convert to a religion. I added it to another civics column.
* Moved the button graphics around so they kind of make sense and added a couple of new graphics
* Deleted Trial By Combat; there is no real need for six legal civics. Now Desert Law is the default, but I removed the +1 XP on units.

Forgot to include some of the intended issues with the Spice economy. It needs to be a big boost to compete with terraformed super-cities.

Right now it gives +1 hammer on harvester improvements. I agree it should be stronger; but how? Some possibilities, based on existing civic flags: More than +1 hammer on harvester, maybe also +1 commerce on harvester? Worker build rate +25%? Bonus on commerce yield in cities? Free engineer per city?

So there is no way you can easily tie civics into any of the python that handles spice blows? I feel pretty strongly that the civic needs to be about enhancing a spice-based economy, as opposed to a cottage of specialist economy from having large population.

Tile yields on spice harvesters don't really help much, because most of your spice tiles aren't in the BFC of any of your cities.

Thats why I prefer things like higher spawn rate of spice blows or slower decay rate of worked spcie, but I understand there may not be any hooks.

What about creating a National Wonder building that acts as a second spice corp, that requires the pro-spice civic, and gets destroyed if you don't have that civic (like catchbasins)?
Or a building that consumes spice in the same way as a corporation, and gives +2% commerce per spice resource consumed? Though these also fit the CHOAM religion pretty well, but its probably ok to have some overlap.

* * *
The Sayyadinas tech will be pretty empty without the desert law civic.
What is the harm in 6 civics? The free upkeep from desert law seems too strong to me for a default civic.
I also like Trial by Combat better as a default civic, feels more Dune-ish, whereas Desert Law is kindof amorphous.

Thats why I prefer things like higher spawn rate of spice blows or slower decay rate of worked spcie, but I understand there may not be any hooks.

After several feedbacks, I lowered the spice decay rate a lot back in 1.3.x something. Do you feel that making the decay rate zero inside cultural borders of a spice industry civic would be helpful? It is easy enough to do.

What is the harm in 6 civics? The free upkeep from desert law seems too strong to me for a default civic.
I also like Trial by Combat better as a default civic, feels more Dune-ish, whereas Desert Law is kindof amorphous.

I cannot see much theme difference between Desert Law and Trial By Combat. If there was some reason we could not do it in 5 choices, I could see six, but otherwise it just seems too many.

After several feedbacks, I lowered the spice decay rate a lot back in 1.3.x something. Do you feel that making the decay rate zero inside cultural borders of a spice industry civic would be helpful? It is easy enough to do.

I wouldnt' say zero, or their world will end up with spice everywhere, but halving the decay for the spice industry civic would be great.

I cannot see much theme difference between Desert Law and Trial By Combat.

A fair point. Can we drop Desert law then and keep Trial by Combat? and think of somthing else that might belong at the Sayyadinas tech (or eliminate the tech)?

Are are people feeling about civic balance atm. Is every civic potentially useful? It seems pretty decent to me, except that we need to do something with slavery (a passive slave capture chance seems good). And maybe we should reduce the GPP bonus for meritocracy?

As mentioned few times , Arrakis Spice should have more bonuses/ mechanics involved. Or , lets say different, Way of Liet need more penalties .

Also yes, slaves. Harks need some synergy to use with slves and slavery civics. May be it will allow them to sacrifice slave for 10 production at normal speed?

May be it will allow them to sacrifice slave for 10 production at normal speed?

This would be tied to the slave, you can't really tie unit abilities to a civic.

Keeping the Arrakis spice/paradise issue aside, thats really a separate discussion, what about the normal civics?

You know , i tried alot of them. Thats a good sign. I mean, with different position and leader they are usefull. This is good idea to adjust civics to improvements.

The thing is that tech tree is big, and in DW you need something half-vanilla-half ffh teching, that means specialisation and beelining necessary techs for religions/leaders civs.

The best way to see what is still necessary to add i think will be to write small table (ugh its not small, really :P) of leaders/civs versus civics. Then check their paths - paths which each civ will choose as optimal, and build some synergies on those paths as viable options for certain leader/civ , that have some synergy.
Those paths dictated by - Traits, UBs, UUs and Offworld Trade resource units.
Then i think it will be more less clear where are holes, what needs to be added, and what we have in abundance.
Sure - there should be no civic that will be universal. Each of them should be viable option in certain circumstances.


I dont know if i am clear enough, hope you understand.

Current civic balance - i find its quite balanced. Just need to check those aviable paths and see if there any option to add some synergy with solar farms/turbines. Example : Some civ should be good with that (Ix?). Ok, Ix... They love Offworld trade, and beeline Liquid Fuel (early military) then Technocrathy>Cybernetics. Hey! there is Refining techniques on that way. That means Turbines. (machines, robots, thinking turbnes)
They have no prefrence to SE/CE, thus thy can get some Economic civic, that will boost windtraps by 1 commerce (hammer?) , and turbines for 1 commerce. , Which unlocked at Liquid Fuel or Refining Techniques.
They are agressive, and they are organized, so Imperialistic civic will not provide great bonus.
Then there can be some Goverment civic ties with Cybernetics as well. I think Technocratic society of thinking machines will love some other type of goverment , than we have atm in Goverment civics list. Lets say Health is less issue for civs that abuse thinking machine factories , perhaps that goverment should provide extra health (Sterile society) and may be something related to unit building (training virtual programms, unit building speed?), so that will be special goverment civic for ones who beeline cybernetic path, and will provide some warmonger synergy and health at goverment slot.
Those just examples, please do not judge strictly, its just direction where we can find new civics/ uses and synergies.

Yeah, I've been thinking about trying to find a civic that would boost solar farms and/or turbines, but didn't think of anything good.
Do you think it would fit better balancewise as a labor or economy civic?
+1 commerce to solar farm and turbine1/2/3?
Maybe put it at Sand farms tech? Which is looking very empty these days.

I definitely tried to design civics in terms of nice synergies with leaders and combinations.
Meritocracy/Faufreluches/water discipline/arrakis spice can be pretty powerful, especially with a philosophical leader, run a specialist economy for tech-men, keep settling your newly generated great people, and use spice to boost commerce yield.
Or Hereditary rule/private property/planned economy/arrakis paradise, especially with financial trait, terraforming and building huge cities on cottage economies and keeping them all happy.

Duke Leto is one of the best rulers, since he can swing both ways, so to speak.

I think Labor is better actually , because , well, it fits there. The problem i dont know how to call it and to tie it plot-wise.

May be something related to Norms of Efficiency . Some strict demand to be perfect and efficient and scrupulous, and will boost all mech improvements like turbines and windtraps (+1 commerce to both) (need deeper insight and balance) Limitations of consumption, saving resources, anti - wastage concept. Aviable at Refining Techniques or Industrialism perhaps, ?

Edit: solar farms, and solar energy also fit into concept.

Also Some Sterile society as something in style of Technoicatic Goverment can also be viable choice (there are no civics that boost health btw, and perhaps there may be some need of one as mid game choice).

I disagree that a civic boosting turbines and solar farms should also boost windtraps, *especially* if it is a labor civic and so is not mutually exclusive with water discipline (which boosts windtraps).

Balance is the most important thing here.

The issue about categories isn't even where it fits logically, it is "which other powerful civics need to be mutually exclusive with this".

Refining techniques is really too late for a civic; part of the civic design was to have all the civics available by the midgame. Planned economy is the latest civic in the game I think, and only because it is *so* powerful (when combined with private property).

I disagree that a civic boosting turbines and solar farms should also boost windtraps, *especially* if it is a labor civic and so is not mutually exclusive with water discipline (which boosts windtraps).

Balance is the most important thing here.

The issue about categories isn't even where it fits logically, it is "which other powerful civics need to be mutually exclusive with this".

Refining techniques is really too late for a civic; part of the civic design was to have all the civics available by the midgame. Planned economy is the latest civic in the game I think, and only because it is *so* powerful (when combined with private property).
Well, i see your point and agree about windtraps.

About tehnology - it can be any....Desert Engeneering? Early and Seems fit? Just a diferent tech path abit, need both to activate before you beeline refining techniques.
other choice is Harsh Conditioning - seems bit off-way but thats cool. Fits concept of Labor that scurpulous and saves every penny and drop of any resource. Survival. Something remind me Final Frontier and Survival civ there (Halis?). Dune is harsh place and labor civic in concept of Survival / Hight Efficiency seems good enough.

May be it will be good to move this civic to Economy and boost +1 commerce windtraps too (makes sence) (again, Harsh Planet, Efficient, Scrupulous economy), denying use of Water Discipline, while Computerized Sterile civic (i dont know name) (clean society) (Technoctratic theme when all looks like Drug-store) may be labor civic providing light health bonus and light unit prod speed bonus, and may be some con.

Technoctratic theme when all looks like Drug-store

I don't think this is very Dune.

The most technological society is Ix, and their lower classes live in wretched conditions.
They literally engineer semi-human workers with no real initiative, who live only to obey.

There is no squeaky-clean Star Trek style benevolent society in the Dune Universe.

I think I'd rather leave it Labor (so its blocked by Faufreluches and Private Property).
Harsh conditioning is a military and espionage tech, it shouldn't be an economy/government one.

Sand farms is a potential place; CHOAM is another.

Names are hard.
"Energy efficiency"?

Because its Labor, so name should be related to labor. Something Discipline perhaps. Efficiency Norms.? Something with Scurpulous? Restricted Consumption? mmm Consumption Norms? CHOAM is good, because of idea to save every penny/ energy/ whatever resource. But still, it should characterize order of labor. Something ruled by Some office / Mercantile house that give strict limits of consumption, according to person social ladder status? Determination by allowance to use resources/goods?

I'm not sure that it needs to be thought of as an efficiency issue. It could easily just represent that electricity production is more valuable to the economy, or that the factions' generators are producing more electricity, through superior design or management.

I'm not sure that it needs to be thought of as an efficiency issue. It could easily just represent that electricity production is more valuable to the economy, or that the factions' generators are producing more electricity, through superior design or management.

Yesm,, but how electricity related to labor. Labor civic is order of labor arrangement within civ. Slavery, Private property (freedom), Serfdom.... All it is just social order within certain civ. Ladder, hierarchy. Remeber castes in vanilla? Its Labor civic too... Social Order.... So that should be related to some material/ resource access allowance distinction. Social order and electricity are not related enough. Some electricity built concept civic can be good Economic civic, but for labor.... its too economic and unhuman. Labor civic is about social order and relationship between high and low class within society.

Our version of this relationship can be some obidience to some strict norms of behaviour and consumption, and strict comission, which punish anyone who is not efficient and not follow laws (3rd reich allegory of all-around efficciency?)

Maybe this could represent denying the basic population anything significant in terms of electricity, to funnel the remainder off into government factories and such?

So the underclasses are heavily rationed in terms of their access to material goods.

A lot of Houses run their fiefs that way.

Maybe this could represent denying the basic population anything significant in terms of electricity, to funnel the remainder off into government factories and such?

So the underclasses are heavily rationed in terms of their access to material goods.

A lot of Houses run their fiefs that way.

Yes, that what i trying to tell you about. Strict norms of consumption and strict laws. Obidience to those laws, and something like 3rd reich germany Efficiency fanaticism. "If you weak, invalid , not efficient, not beneficial you should die/ be very low on ladder" concept. Lower ladder heavilly rationed in terms of access to material goods - completely agree.

CHOAM seems to be appropriate tech.
Saving each penny/ energy / whatever originates from.... greed and fear of over-consumption of vital resources.

http://forum.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2988

i found this interisting article by some guy from Dune novels forums.

Also there is term "Hydraulic Despotism" used by one of posters.
IIRC, FH also based Leto's absolute control over society based on the concept of "Hydraulic Despotism" in which ancient socieities, including China, at times had absolute control over water thus obtained control over the population. The obvious analogy is that Leto II also had absolute control over the spice which he used to control his empire.

Something like this name can be good name for this new civic we talking about.

Hydraulic despotism is about using control of a resource (historically water) to control the population by controlling access (if your farm doesn't get water, you can't grow crops and you die - so you do whatever the ruler says).

I'm not sure how well that fits with a civic that boosts commerce yields from turbines and solar farms. Hydraulic despotism is about threatening to deprive access to a single really key resource; keeping underclasses poor and with few consumer goods doesn't really qualify.
The nobles and power groups are controlled by Leto through rationing Spice; the underclasses never got any spice anyway. Leto's hydraulic despotism is about controlling the upper classes, not the lower classes.

just bonus to solar/turbine 1c is not enough , perhaps some more bonus and some con, to tie it, because it exist in dune universe, and there is no mention about it in game.

GD will not bonus water or whatever. It can be related to spice, and choam can be good tech for it.

In name of integrating into a game something Relevant to books you can make adjustments. What will bonus HD? nothing actually related to water or spice. Perhaps that will be its mali. And it might bonus something other, not relevant, as just "another solution" feature.
Can we increase bonus for Turbines and add some mali related to spice?

just bonus to solar/turbine 1c is not enough ... Can we increase bonus for Turbines and add some mali related to spice?

We had discussed this with no conclusion on some other thread. The problem is that there isn't much difference between solar farm and wind turbine. Can we add some civics or techs which make them develop differently? Otherwise they are partly redundant hammer bonus improvements, and there seems little reason to keep both.

We had discussed this with no conclusion on some other thread. The problem is that there isn't much difference between solar farm and wind turbine. Can we add some civics or techs which make them develop differently? Otherwise they are partly redundant hammer bonus improvements, and there seems little reason to keep both.

I think that This civic can bonus solar for 1 hammer and turbine for commerce (2?) , and mali spice using in some way or just some other improvements (like spice harvesters - -1 or -2 c for spice harvester tile/ spice worked tile in bfc)

This will make solars production improvement, turbines commercial improvements, and spice tiles bit less improtant but also less profitable), Its good for non Phi civs which have little of spice, and have alot of flat land and not enough mesas, and alot of wells. (which destroy spice)
This will also work good with paradise civic , and more than that it will work awesome lore book-wise - Becasue Leto II actually gone this path - Arrakis Paradise and Hydraulic Despotism.
Tech should be Sand Farms perhaps or even Academies.

These are separate issues.

There is one issue that is about differentiating turbines from solar farms, to make both interestig.
One way of doing this would be to allow turbines on mesa and flat, and solar farms being more valuable, but only available in sinks.

The issue discussed here though is different, it is to compare turbine/generators vs cottages vs specialists. At the moment, cottage economies or specialist economies are the dominant way to go. What we want to consider is having a turbine/generator economy as an alternative - or at least to encourage these to sometimes be more valuable than cottagespam.

just bonus to solar/turbine 1c is not enough
I disagree that a 1c bonus is not strong enough compared to other civics. Compare to slavery, which boosts mines, and you can only have a handful of mines, whereas you can have many turbines. With a 1c bonus, a level 2 turbine is 2h2c, which is a pretty respectable yield.

So my suggestions would be:
Mine Level 1/2/3, +2h/3h/4h, buildable only on mesa. +1 hammer from slavery.
Solar farm: 2h, buildable only in sink. +1 hammer from tech1, tech2 (need not be the same as now) +1c from CivicX. Expensive to build (worker time)
Turbine level 1/2/3. 1h1c/2h1c/3h1c. Builable on mesa and rock and rugged, but not in sink. Bring the requirement for turbine level 2 slightly earlier in tech tree, so it is similar (or same) as mine2.
Cottage, as current.

So we will get: windtrap/turbine/mines on mesa, cottage/solar farm on graben, cottage/turbine on rock/rugged.

Mine > turbine with slavery, but turbine > mine with civicX.

GD will not bonus water or whatever. It can be related to spice, and choam can be good tech for it.

In name of integrating into a game something Relevant to books you can make adjustments. What will bonus HD? nothing actually related to water or spice. Perhaps that will be its mali. And it might bonus something other, not relevant, as just "another solution" feature.
Can we increase bonus for Turbines and add some mali related to spice?

I don't understand what you're saying here.
I also don't understand why somethnig that is good for wind turbines would be bad for Spice.

I would also suggest that the Hydraulic Empire of Leto II is not something that makes any sense in the timeline we are talking about in this mod,around Dune and children of Dune. It is something that only exists in the far future, with Leto II the worm as absolute tyrant.

I think that This civic can bonus solar for 1 hammer and turbine for commerce (2?)

A 2c bonus for turbines would make a level 1 turbine, available very early, give 1h3c. That is far too much. You would risk the AI building those instead of windtraps, and having pathetic cities.

Becasue Leto II actually gone this path - Arrakis Paradise and Hydraulic Despotism.

This makes no sense to me. What does hydraulic despotism in terms of controllnig which nobles get spice have to do with building wind turbines?

I thinking about synergy and about concepts in books. Even if its in far future, that can have its version in game, as time-line prequisite.
why turbines/solar vs Spice? Because turbines and solar farms seems to be ecological, not extracting improvements. Ones that not deplete Arrakis.
Turbine can be just economical building being something like cottage with civicX , but less commerce and more production.
Solar can be just industrial improvement which aviable on plain terrain and is better than mine with civic X.

A 2c bonus for turbines would make a level 1 turbine, available very early, give 1h3c. That is far too much. You would risk the AI building those instead of windtraps, and having pathetic cities.


(You lose commerce with spice and water is something AI should favor much more than commerce/hammers)



This makes no sense to me. What does hydraulic despotism in terms of controllnig which nobles get spice have to do with building wind turbines?
Ecology, and desire to find alternate power/commerce generators, thus focus on improving them and supplying civ needs by those improved improvements and labor focus to be scurpulous, carefulness with surrounding world , inventiveness etc etc "No extraction, no depletion" concept
and here goes Spice and mali for it. As told, HD of Leto II is not that relevant to time period in game, but it can have its prequisites. Rations, limited acess to Resources and luxuries, as way to control. Either for preserving , either for control and limitation of use, extraction and depletion. Or just denying it and decreasing numbers of spice consumption relying on invention and ecology.

Alot of civics are doubtfull with their bonuses. Heritage rule? 1 hapiness per military rule? I dont think that in real world and in Dune world HR provided hapiness in THAT way, hovewer mod uses it as invention of vanilla.

(edit: just edited post because this post got mixed with one from promotions thread, so removed irrelevant stuff and placed in right post)

water is something AI should favor much more than commerce/hammers

Still not the main point; main problem is an instant 4-resource yielding improvement, that goes up to 6 resources with enough tech, that is buildable basically anywhere. Windtraps have high yields, but you are very limited where you can build them.

And besides, hydraulic despotism has nothing to do with an ecological awareness of the environment. I just don't see any link between
a) denying population consumer goods (by extracting as much energy as possible through power generation, vs
b) reducing spice harvesting activities

You lose commerce with spice

I don't understand what you mean here.

I realize you're probably not a native English speaker, but your tendency to write in fragments and incomplete thoughts makes your comments very difficult to read and understand.
PLEASE try and explain your ideas more clearly and completely.

Ecology, and desire to find alternate power/commerce generators, thus focus on improving them and supplying civ needs by those improved improvements and labor focus to be scurpulous, carefulness with surrounding world , inventiveness etc etc "No extraction, no depletion" concept

Spice is a renewable resource - as long as there are worms, there is spice. Spice isn't an extractive industry, like drilling for oil or coal, so it makes no sense for an ecologist/conservationist to try to preserve it by not harvesting it.
And if you don't harvest spice, it just blows away anyway. There is never a reason to not harvest spice that is there.

And the main reason that Leto restricts spice is to restrict space travel (and longevity), deliberately suppressing human expansion so that it can leap forth in a diaspora.

Alot of civics are doubtfull with their bonuses. Heritage rule? 1 hapiness per military rule?

Hereditary rule represents a standard traditional order of succession and rule, where power is concentrated in the monarch/leader and his military forces. A society where power is inherited is one where bright successful people from lower classes (who would succeed in a meritocratic society) are kept in check and without power only by strength of military force. As opposed to a theocratic society, wher religion is used for the similar effect, or an Imperial society, where power is decentralized.
Its not that much of a stretch.

you will just meet AI archers in cities
Then, like I said, maybe the problem is that the AIs aren't prioritizing defense tactics early enough because we don't yet have tech flavors in the mod. I wouldn't be surprised if the AI was designed to put a high value on getting one other military tech early.

Can we not put this argument in the civics thread though please?

I don't understand what you mean here.

I realize you're probably not a native English speaker, but your tendency to write in fragments and incomplete thoughts makes your comments very difficult to read and understand.
PLEASE try and explain your ideas more clearly and completely.

I mean that you get Spice economy (corporation bonuses and tile yelds) hampered.
My thinking is conceptual, and not logical, i've studied in academy of arts, and i think more abstract than logically, but i am very practical as well. Sorry if its hard to understand me sometimes for you, and i can ask you - dont consider me dumb (i am not saying that you do, i just asking for future) just because i can be so uncoherent. :P



[QUOTE=Ahriman;8586927]Still not the main point; main problem is an instant 4-resource yielding improvement, that goes up to 6 resources with enough tech, that is buildable basically anywhere. Windtraps have high yields, but you are very limited where you can build them.

And besides, hydraulic despotism has nothing to do with an ecological awareness of the environment. I just don't see any link between
a) denying population consumer goods (by extracting as much energy as possible through power generation, vs
b) reducing spice harvesting activities

....

Spice is a renewable resource - as long as there are worms, there is spice. Spice isn't an extractive industry, like drilling for oil or coal, so it makes no sense for an ecologist/conservationist to try to preserve it by not harvesting it.
And if you don't harvest spice, it just blows away anyway. There is never a reason to not harvest spice that is there.

And the main reason that Leto restricts spice is to restrict space travel (and longevity), deliberately suppressing human expansion so that it can leap forth in a diaspora.

Well ok, lets forget about Hydraulic Despotism, but i think that Solar/turbine bonus should be more powerfull , and followed by some mali - negative civic feature.
Also having some synergy with one of lore/game paths would be nice.



Hereditary rule represents a standard traditional order of succession and rule, where power is concentrated in the monarch/leader and his military forces. A society where power is inherited is one where bright successful people from lower classes (who would succeed in a meritocratic society) are kept in check and without power only by strength of military force. As opposed to a theocratic society, wher religion is used for the similar effect, or an Imperial society, where power is decentralized.
Its not that much of a stretch.

I am not concerned thats is right representation of HR via civic, but thats vanilla tradition and i accept that.



Can we not put this argument in the civics thread though please?


^^^^
reply is quote of my previous post edit
VVVVV

(edit: just edited post because this post got mixed with one from promotions thread, so removed irrelevant stuff and placed in right post)