We need some input about legion size.

There's a glitch: the legion size seems to be too small, usually 1-3 units. Players don't experience too much of awesome legion feeling.

Some potential solutions:

1. Make legions able to contain multiple unit combat type. For example, a hero with melee level 2, mounted level 1, archer level 2 can form a legion with a maximum of 2 melee units, 1 mounted unit, and 2 archers. However, this might lead to bloated legions.
2. Make a new promotion, enable hero to include 1 more unit to his legion, any unit combat type. This promotion may have a promotion line.
3. Make each combat level able to select more unit, for example, D:2, C:4, B:6, A:7, S:8.
4. Don't enlarge legion size. The current size is just right.

Because this is something about player experience, I want to hear from players which one they prefer, or whether they have a differnet idea.

I would like to combine different unit types. Rarely have archers, cavalry and infantry worked separately in real life, even though Civ makes us think so. In fact, there should be synergy between them. If you're worried about bloated legions, just change it so that legions have to stay together (that would discourage people from combine everything under one commander).

Hmm, I'm torn on this one. Currently the balance is about right: not all your troops will be lead by a hero (which is good) so it preserves the uniqueness about the whole thing. On the other hand, it would be nice to see a combined arms approach in legions.

In the end though, I'd say keep the size as it is right now. If you're still going to add ~40 in the next release, there should be more than enough heroes to go around. Legions should be special, and they represent the best troops your faction has to offer. Currently, I belive the lack of killing everything with every unit (because they're all legion members) is balanced by the amazing feel you get when your legion arrives to break a siege or to change the tide of a campaign. I personally love how they can't be everywhere at once, forcing you to actually make hard decisions about where to send them. Anthing more, and the invinciblity feeling sets in... and then the game loses excitement.

Though it's probably hard to code, the promotion line that allows a larger legion size could work. That way only a few select heroes could get it as opposed to everybody.

First we are not going to add 40 new heroes in the next release. We realize that's too many in every sense. There will be about 15 new heroes. The problem is not there are not enough heroes, but rather many heroes don't get a chance to fight and level up. Also the key is to maintain the uniqueness of as many heroes as possible.

@AP

That 'legion members should stay close' idea is good, I think even we don't make legion a combined arm, we could still implement this idea. A legion member ten plots away from its hero doesn't make much sense.

@Kenjister

If I understand right, one of the fun part of legion system is the feeling player get when their elite legion units comes in the middle of a close fight and change the outcome. That's great.

Still, I've heard player say more than once they want larger legions, the reason is to get the feeling of 'legion'. That's understandable too. In fact, war at that time should be legion vs. legion, hero vs. hero, that would feel more right.

I'm rather confused as to what is the best way to enhance player experience right now.

yeah, I figured 40 would be a little much... at least until you implement advisors ;)

I too would support forcing legion members to stay together, after all, they are under the command of the hero who's leading them. Something that just hit me though is that perhaps the lack of legion vs. legion feeling will be solved by the heroes added in the next release. After all, ~15 heroes is still alot, and that should probably put most units in your army under the command of someone.

Another idea that just hit me, though probably very hard to code, is somehow having a tech grant increased legion capacity. Call it 'Military Reform' or something... that would be pretty awesome. It'd solve the lack of late-game legion vs. legion combat, while keeping the ratio of legion to fodder balaced in the early game.

Yes, perhaps we should wait to see what these around 15 new heroes do to this matter.

So I would do that same legion unit stay together stuff. Just make legion member automatically quit legion if he leaves his hero about 2 or 3 plots away.

Right now my inclination is to make combined arm legion, as well as tech constraint to total legion size, say 5 in the beginning of the game, 8 or so in the late stage. So you could make legion with various unit combat types, but can't exceed the total legion size even if your total combat levels are higher. Maybe in the future there are some bureaucracy stuff and ranks coming in we can substitute the tech constraint with rank constraint. That's for later. Right now I'd better make some new promotions for those new heroes...

Oooh, new promotions... :drool:

The combined arms approach + a max legion size sounds great too.

Legions seem just right to me, thats my input.

Legions seem just right to me, thats my input.

That's a right-to-the-point input.:)

What do you think of the combined arm + tech max size limit idea?

That's a right-to-the-point input.:)

What do you think of the combined arm + tech max size limit idea?

I think that sounds like a good idea, because the legions seem balanced in the early game especially. Maybe in the mid game unlock combined arms with a low unit cap like 5, and then increase that base number through techs, up to about 8 sounds like a good starting point. It will definitely need play testing :crazyeye:

Yeah, that's a good point there, about giving combined army legion ability to a tech instead of giving it for free on game start.

Man, this forum is really starting to churn out some good ideas now that we have several people posting regulary!

I'm guessing the combined arms approach will probably come out in 2.5 (or whatever the version after 2.4 is called) so it might be a good idea to edit the tech tree in that version too, so we can attach these special abilities to an appropriate sounding tech. Right now I can't really think of any techs that could take a combined arms upgrade except Professional Army, and that's already a really powerful tech anyways.

1. Make legions able to contain multiple unit combat type. For example, a hero with melee level 2, mounted level 1, archer level 2 can form a legion with a maximum of 2 melee units, 1 mounted unit, and 2 archers. However, this might lead to bloated legions. .

I was thinking the same thing when I first started playing, and thought it'd be awsome to have Guan Yu lead a legion of axemen with archers in support and mounted scouts. But then it wouldn't be a "legion." It'd be more like a "Division" or "Corps"

The more I played, the more I think of the existing system as being more true to reality. The general is the heart of the legion, and the special abilities of the core unit is HIM being HIM more than anything else. Zhang Liao's Dread affect isn't because of all the nameless peons following him, it's his reputation itself. And when GuanYu is on his RedHare, slashing through the enemy with his glaive, it should only be the immediate troops around him that benefits from his prowess, i.e. the melee troops. An archery unit isn't going to benefit from the enemy cowering from his onslaught, it's the axemen pressing with his momentum.

When I use a hero's core troops, I visualize that hero at the front of the attack, taking on the opposing champion in the 1 on 1 dual that was so previlent back in the days. And the bonus effects on his other legion members is due to them being emboldened by the Hero's deeds.

I was thinking the same thing when I first started playing, and thought it'd be awsome to have Guan Yu lead a legion of axemen with archers in support and mounted scouts. But then it wouldn't be a "legion." It'd be more like a "Division" or "Corps"

The more I played, the more I think of the existing system as being more true to reality. The general is the heart of the legion, and the special abilities of the core unit is HIM being HIM more than anything else. Zhang Liao's Dread affect isn't because of all the nameless peons following him, it's his reputation itself. And when GuanYu is on his RedHare, slashing through the enemy with his glaive, it should only be the immediate troops around him that benefits from his prowess, i.e. the melee troops. An archery unit isn't going to benefit from the enemy cowering from his onslaught, it's the axemen pressing with his momentum.

When I use a hero's core troops, I visualize that hero at the front of the attack, taking on the opposing champion in the 1 on 1 dual that was so previlent back in the days. And the bonus effects on his other legion members is due to them being emboldened by the Hero's deeds.

I agree with this completely, however, I mainly interpret this as a strong argument to keep legion size down to a reasonable level. There is a limit to how much a single person can command. As to the issue with combined arms, why can't cavalry charge along with Guan Yu while the footmen follow? As long as size is kept down I think combined arms is a great idea.

There is a limit to how much a single person can command.

Actually Cao Cao would beg to differ.:lol:

What about diffusion of experience? E.g. Guan Yu would works best with 4 units, but if he has to command 8 units, only a third of his experience/attributes get passed on. We can even make it semi-logarithmic, e.g.
1-4 units = full experience
5-8 units= 50% experience
8-12 units = 25% experience
>12 units=10% experience

In most cases that would mean that unless you have a superpromoted general with more than 10 promotions, if you want to use 12 units with that legion, all they would get is 1 promotion. This would be more useful in late game when large numbers matter.

Well, most of them did end up getting burnt on ships or slaughtered in marshes :mischief:

It does sound interesting though, but maybe really hard to code and somewhat random.
What about giving the Legion members a negative strength promotion based on how many units above ideal are commanded.
1-4 could be no penalty
5-8 could grant about -30% strength. (enough to counteract Elite ____ promotions but not other special ones)
8-12 could give -50 or -60% strength. (enough to wipe off most benefits except vigourous and the unit's promotions. Useful only if you need alot of mediocre units with effectively only the Vigorous promotions. ei opening invasion against Yuan Shao. Man I hate that guy, he just grows and grows and grows...)

great discussion

Well, most of them did end up getting burnt on ships or slaughtered in marshes :mischief:

It does sound interesting though, but maybe really hard to code and somewhat random.
What about giving the Legion members a negative strength promotion based on how many units above ideal are commanded.
1-4 could be no penalty
5-8 could grant about -30% strength. (enough to counteract Elite ____ promotions but not other special ones)
8-12 could give -50 or -60% strength. (enough to wipe off most benefits except vigourous and the unit's promotions. Useful only if you need alot of mediocre units with effectively only the Vigorous promotions. ei opening invasion against Yuan Shao. Man I hate that guy, he just grows and grows and grows...)

Lol re: getting burnt on ships

There's an algorithm in the Defense mod where for each unit on a tile after the first, they get a 10% penalty on strength for the entire stack...maybe that could be modified for the legion?

Small legions give things a more personal feel.

I would like to make a few suggestions about going for combined arms groups. Since they allow a more balanced force profile, and thus are less restricted in the units you can add, they should definitely be less competent -- a horseman in a cavalry specialized legion should be straight up more effective than one in a combined arms legion, as his commander has more specific information related to using him effectively. To balance that strength differential, I'd suggest allowing combined arms legions to achieve a larger effective size than a specialized force, with perhaps a maximum of between six and eight units.

It'd give the player the option of choosing between small numbers of elite specialists, or larger numbers of more generally proficient units.

Small legions give things a more personal feel.

I would like to make a few suggestions about going for combined arms groups. Since they allow a more balanced force profile, and thus are less restricted in the units you can add, they should definitely be less competent -- a horseman in a cavalry specialized legion should be straight up more effective than one in a combined arms legion, as his commander has more specific information related to using him effectively. To balance that strength differential, I'd suggest allowing combined arms legions to achieve a larger effective size than a specialized force, with perhaps a maximum of between six and eight units.

It'd give the player the option of choosing between small numbers of elite specialists, or larger numbers of more generally proficient units.

To some extent wouldn't that already be case? - as presumably some legion promotions simply won't be of benefit to every unit in the legion or wouldn't suit certain units as much as others (ie; a city raid bonus would be better suited to a swordsman than an archer).

Also it may be worth you looking at the Fall Further (FFH modmod) version of Heroes (called Great Commanders) which run on similar lines but have a distance modifier that means that if a unit is x tiles away from the commander, he doesn't get XP benefit for any combat they are involved in.

There are then promotions that extend the effective range that the benefit will be gained.

This is great discussion. A pity I'm pretty tired with the release and need some rest to figure this out properly. :D So here's my two cents, not conclusions, just rant when I'm not quite clear in the head:

Yeah, small legion has some psychological benefit too, I didn't know this well. There's a thing though, isn't the core troop promotions there to represent the prowess of Guan Yu himself, and the whole legion promotions there to represent his commanding ability? So, if core troop promotions and legion promotions are done properly, we should have the benefit of both world, in one hand is the hero's god-like warrior might, on the other hand is the hero as a commander in chief. After all, Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang are heroes too, they won't fight and charge, so they don't get some of the core promotions, but they get good legion promotions to portray them as great commanders.

There's still another potential conflict I'd like to point out: right now the unit combat level decides both the power of your legion and the size of your legion. It works fine if we understand the power benefit of combat level promotions as coming from the hero's commanding ability. It works not so fine if we think of it as the hero's own warrior might. It seems players more likely to think as latter.

About giving player choice whether to form pure combat type legion or combined legion, I love this idea. How could we achieve it? If pure combat type, your unit combat promotions are the one according to your hero's unit combat level. If 2 combat types, then each combat type suffers -1 penalty as to combat level promotions. If 3, suffers -2. This is a way to exchange legion size with unit prowess.

The commander range: there's already commander range in now, 2 plots, more than that your legion member automatically quit. A promotion to extend that size sounds cool to me. May be a little underpowered though.

I would try making some prototype with these ideas and post as beta release after I finish the much needed patch A.

hmm, I've always though of the elite bonus as the commanding ability with perhaps a large morale boost from the hero mixed in... Vigorous seems to be an extension of the heroes personal fighting ability though, perhaps that's what other players are going off of. (Most of the Tiger Generals + Cao Cao's bodyguards seem to support the fighting ability part.)

Now I'm thinking about making Vigorous a Core Troop Promotion. :)

Please don't tell me I convinced you to do that... :sad:
Vigorous is great for the entire legion, it's what makes them run, and be better than the other troops. It's actually one of the greatest incentives to make a legion. Currently everything is just balanced great! If you want to change the confusion over commanding vs. physical presence, just change the name of vigorous to reflect that it's a command promotion. If you do that you also have justification for giving Cao Cao up to Vigorous IV, along with other strategists. Just don't give them great core troop promotions or anything. You would have to nerf Xu Chu and Dian Wei though.

Yeah. Some guys speaking Chinese are fully supportive to make vigorous Core Troop promotion. They also happen to be the guys who want legion to be bigger.

well, it seems kinda contradictory though... they want bigger legions so more units get the benefits and therefore more fun, but they also want vigorous to be only a core troop promotion? it just seems odd, since vigorous is what really changes the combat odds (in the field at least), not the little elite troops bonus or some other promotion.

Do they still want to have bigger legions even after all the new random and historical heroes? In my games, my whole attacking army is under some hero's command, and I'm playing as Ma Teng. Cao Cao probably would have no problem getting most of his troops in a legion, even in the late game.

The reason is vigorous is just too useful, they imbalance the game, especially if legion size is increased. I have yet release 2.4 in China, because I have to convert it to BTS 3.17.

If you do decide to change Vigorous into a core troop promotion, could you think about buffing up the elite ____ promotions slightly? Right now the legions don't seem too unbalanced to me, especially since the AI is fielding thier own much more effectively.

I would not change Vigorous right now, if I do, most likely just to rename it like you suggested.

Ah, good :cool:
I was pretty scared for a bit there. If you do find things about Legions that seem overpowered, do you thing you could borrow from the FfH policy of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is?"

I've also noticed that all my combat is done with legions now, unless it's an emergency or a suprise attack. I have more than enough random heroes to go around now :goodjob:

EDIT: Is Cao Cao supposed to be getting combined arms legions? In my current game the Hero Info screen shows he has a repeating ballista and a Crossbowman in his legion.

Ah, good :cool:
I was pretty scared for a bit there. If you do find things about Legions that seem overpowered, do you thing you could borrow from the FfH policy of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is?"

I've also noticed that all my combat is done with legions now, unless it's an emergency or a suprise attack. I have more than enough random heroes to go around now :goodjob:

EDIT: Is Cao Cao supposed to be getting combined arms legions? In my current game the Hero Info screen shows he has a repeating ballista and a Crossbowman in his legion.

That's interesting motto, useful too. Rest assured, if you think the current setting is good, it probably is. :)

The Cao Cao situation is a bug. Ahhh...

Maybe it's the same bug as the hero in a legion bug... the patch sould fix that then I guess.

Can you give it a little debugging? press shift_ctrl_L and change to Cao Cao, to take a look at Cao Cao's legion unit. If both units are concrete unit, I mean Cao Cao's legion units number equals that which is shown on info screen, then it's a new bug. If somehow one of the unit doesn't exist, it's the same bug.

Ok, I did the debugging, and the crossbow was really nonexistant.
On the other hand, since you're reading this Liu Bei has the Runner promotion as a legion promotion. This means as long as you have the legion together, it's invincible as it "flees" to the nearest other legion member upon defeat. In this case, the nearest legion member would be on the same tile, so the battle simply ends with the attacker retreating and the defender getting 1 xp. If the Legion is on a chokepoint, it cannot be moved nor destroyed in any way. Actually it's quite funny to watch though.

Da, I have discovered the cause of that mysterious bug, it's a careless coding error, when reading save game, every hero who has penetration promotion will get a phantom legion member.

Liu Bei is so awesome that everyone he touches became a runner,hehe. Well, that's a careless mistake on my part too. A patch B is on the way.

yeah, typing in 1 or 2 on the xml files can get quite repetetive when making heroes... I made a Deng Ai and Jiang Wei for 2.3, and it took forever to get the promotions working. While you're adding that though, it might be worth it to give a few more heroes the Elites (or Veterans, whatever it was called) promotion.

hehe, I actually expect you to ask for that. Any particular hero you feel like should get that elite promotion for XP bonus?

I guess I'm getting pradictable :lol:
Cheng Pu could certainly use the elite promotion (I don't think he has it currently), Cao Cao could do with it too... maybe some of the other well known generals that have relatively little defeats could deserve it to, like Xu Huang, or generals with long careers such as Liao Hua.
Right now my brain isn't working too well, I know I had a few more officers in mind. oh well.

I feel like declining giving too many heroes elite promotion, partly because right now heroes with elite promotions lead elite troops in history, Cao Ren with tiger and pather rider, Dian Wei with Cao Cao's body guards, Chen Dao with white ear warriors, etc. Second reason is since every hero need this promotion, I prepare to find a way for every hero to gain it. I just haven't figured a way yet.

yeah, only a few should have it... but maybe tie it to hero level (even though you didn't like that concept so much for command) or if possible, to tie to the level of the core troop.

Tying it to the core troops would make the most sense, since it does represent elite troops, however the code is probably still there for the hero level, making that method easier to implement.

I'm considering making the following changes: every legion unit will gain bonus experience according to the turns he is in the legion, no matter the hero has elite promotion or not. Also change elite promotion to grant strength bonus according to turns in legion.

Hey, that actaully sounds really good! With the addition of all the new heroes, it was actually getting fairly hard to develop most heroes to thier full potential.

I like the ideas of legions being a small, cohesive group around a charismatic leader. If they get too big and diverse, they may as well be called "armies" or "regiments" or whatever, and the game will start to feel conventional.

I see the mod replicating relatively small groups of men who fought similarly to the leader, usually because they were trained to emulate his fighting skills. This would be the "core" around which his army would be built, and usually who would fight to the last with him if need by (think "300" and you get my drift, historicity of the film aside.)

That's my two bits. And there's nothing to prevent the design team to come up with some ways that the charismatic leaders can confer an additional, different bonus upon other troops they are stacked with (their "army") no matter what type they may be. This would constitute his "generalship" bonus.

As for the discussion on versatility, I still don't know where to land. It would be nice to merge all the promote _____ promotions into one single "command" promotion to improve versatility of the heroes, but as it now, it's not really micromanagement unless your loosing your legions at an astounding rate (if that was the case you'ld probably be microing to save your empire anyways), and it prevents heroes from becoming too strong in all aspects. Currently in my games, my heroes tend to get all their useful promotions plus a few more, allowing me to imporve their other command levels.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. I'm just looking at it from a different angle. Here's what I'm thinking, as regards flexibility and personality.

Get rid entirely of the five categories (melee, cavalry, archery, siege, and naval) and the potential limitations as they stand right now. Leave that wide open for the players to pick which initial unit they want in their Legion, making sure that a hard cap of 4 units maximum remains.

However. . .

The first unit picked as a member of a Legion determines the type of unit currently allowed in that Legion. So, if the first is a melee unit, then subsequent Legion members should be melee units as well. If during play, it becomes desirable for the player to use that Hero to command something else, he can disband the Legion's original units, and select a different type. So far, no penalty and maximum flexibility (read on before you start screaming). ;)

So for example, if you have a commander with three archers and you decide you really need a commander for your siege weapons at the time, release the three archers, and assign the Hero to command three siege units instead. So it's pretty hassle-free.

In order to mix and match units of different types, you'd need a Combined Arms promotion. You still have to earn your command slots in order to add units to a Legion. You're just getting "generic" command slots instead. To me, this looks a lot simpler to manage.

In general, a commander can command anything -- it's just he might be better at some things than others. A natural-born cavalry leader might truly "suck" as an admiral, but he could still command ships, even if poorly! This happened a lot in history.

My gut feeling on this is that the Hero's current promotions should suggest to the player what type of units that Hero might be best at commanding--without the artificial obligation/limit currently imposed. This means that Hero promotions, at least a significant number of them, ought to focus on specific unit types. This would allow players to design their Heroes the way they want without getting almost completely pidgeon-holed into hard choices.

Following this line of thought, there are two important issues to look at:

1. Promotions Choices: currently I suspect that the choice of new promotions available to a Hero who just popped to a higher level is random. To support what I described earlier, a cavalry commander should get a majority of cavalry-related promotions to choose from when reaching the next level. So whatever that Hero commands at the time influences the types of new promotions available. Naturally, if the Legion contains units of different types, then some of the new promotions should be of use to a Combined Arms commander.

2. Hero Profiles: some Heroes might be better (or worse) at some things than others, as a matter of personal character or general cultural trait. If this is desirable, then some initial bonuses and penalties might be hard-coded into the Hero stats to better reflect historical background. So a Hero native of a mountainous region might have an innate advantage fighting in Hills and perhaps also a permanent penalty as a naval commander. Based on historical facts, some Heroes might actually have been bad strategists, and therefore could have a personal command penalty of some sort. Etc.

Now you have specific profiles for each of your Heroes (some may be better than others), you can build them as you need, and yet you can use them as you see fit, whether it is (or not) the best area for that specific commander. I hope I'm making sense here.

Cheers! :D

Just for personal (and probably gratuitous) satisfaction now...

Having experienced a treacherous Hero in the middle of a battle (twice actually), AND having recaptured the offending traitor eventually, I would have liked a way to make a public execution of the traitor in exchange for added loyalty among my remaining Heroes and a temporary Happiness bonus in the city where the execution takes place! :lol:

I guess your ideas are starting to grow on me... I'm starting to like the idea of having a single command promotion for units that raises all the levels in each category (though I'm not a fan of eliminating all the categories), perhaps call it rank or something. If that was implemented, it'd certainly be quite hassle free, but the only problem would be that we'd have to redesign the entire set of promotions to make the hero horrible at commanding types that he really shouldn't be commanding well (Cao Cao and navy for example).

This is where I begin to prefer the current system, since under it the hero can be thematically "commanding" all the units in his stack, but only his legion are the troops that he can effectively command to the best of his abilities (hence all the cool promotions for every level, even D). I don't quite see the different unitclass levels as an articial limit, due to the way I imagine legions in game.
This is also how I justify the smaller limit for the hero's "off" classes, simply the hero cannot command as many as well. I guess the cause of this whole discussion though is that I really don't see the limitations of class to be hassle, since I justify it with my own little explanation. I certainly see your point of view though, and it would be alot more convinient at times. I just happen to like the current system I guess. I wonder what everyone else's opinion is on this?

I like your idea about random heroes having more class oriented promotions though, since right now random heroes with a max of D in Navy can still only have navy promotions such as silk-sail and sea lord, while lacking anything for the class they have an S in :lol:

I guess your ideas are starting to grow on me...

Quick! Let's pour some water on top so they keep growing! :lol:

I'm starting to like the idea of having a single command promotion for units that raises all the levels in each category (though I'm not a fan of eliminating all the categories), perhaps call it rank or something. If that was implemented, it'd certainly be quite hassle free, but the only problem would be that we'd have to redesign the entire set of promotions to make the hero horrible at commanding types that he really shouldn't be commanding well (Cao Cao and navy for example).

I totally sympathize with the concern of redesigning. Designing is fun. Redesigning just isn't. As far as heroes like Cao Cao who shouldn't really be commanding ships, the approach I imagined actually covers that -- it would give Cao Cao a big penalty when leading naval units. But at least, in a bind, he could lead a fleet.

See, the thing is, leaders all have one common trait -- they lead people! Obviously most are better at one sort of thing, but it doesn't mean they're totally useless elsewhere. As far as Cao Cao goes, he could make a good leader, even on ships, it's just his tactics at sea would probably leave a lot to be desired, hence a penalty of some sort. I assume, despite their initial profiles, all heroes can LEARN and improve their leadership abilities, which is the point of the promotion system.

This is where I begin to prefer the current system, since under it the hero can be thematically "commanding" all the units in his stack, but only his legion are the troops that he can effectively command to the best of his abilities (hence all the cool promotions for every level, even D). I don't quite see the different unitclass levels as an articial limit, due to the way I imagine legions in game.
This is also how I justify the smaller limit for the hero's "off" classes, simply the hero cannot command as many as well. I guess the cause of this whole discussion though is that I really don't see the limitations of class to be hassle, since I justify it with my own little explanation. I certainly see your point of view though, and it would be alot more convinient at times.

...vastly more convenient. ;)

I like your idea about random heroes having more class oriented promotions though, since right now random heroes with a max of D in Navy can still only have navy promotions such as silk-sail and sea lord, while lacking anything for the class they have an S in :lol:

I'm not sure what the "S" is for... but anyway, the system I described, in my opinion is more subtle and yet dynamic in that it channels the heroes' development based upon their original profile, but without the straight-jacket of the categories and their limitations.

You say "potato"... I say "potahto"... :D

"potato" vs. "potahto" sums if perfectly :lol:
I wonder what other people's opinions are on this though... yes I'm looking at you lurkers out there, make this discussion interesting!


Also, I'm not sure what S stands for either, but it sure works to convey the whole "this guy is really special he gets a cool letter of his own!" feeling.

So let me summarize: a whole new legion system in which a hero's number of units in legion and the hero's unit combat effectiveness are separated into 2 different lines of promotions. Am I understanding this right?

After some more consideration and feedback from Chinese players, I believe random heroes are too 'risky', aka. might be very strong, but very likely to be useless. I'm thinking about giving players choice to promote certain kind of random heroes. First choice is which unit combat type to focus on (as in current legion system). Second choice might be to focus on core unit fighting or whole legion commanding, or supplying. However, this second choice seems less necessary because random heroes can get access to quite a lot of potential promotions.

I like it where you can choose what combat type your hero will focus on, but I also think that forcing all the random heroes to start with at least Vigorous 1 would buff them up considerably, perhaps even enough that those changes won't be needed.

First of all, this is a wonderful mod. Keep up the great work.

My recommendation: every hero is pre-assigned the level of each of the combat types. The new hero promotion (D, C, B, A, S as well) has two effects: each level increases the number of units he can command (you can easily tailor this to any maximum legion size you want), and provides the bonus now found in the current combat type promotion. However, as you level up the new hero promotion, its effective level is limited to the preset combat type maximum. So, for example:

Hero promotion: S
Melee: S -> allow the current melee promotion of S
Mounted: B -> allow the current mounted promotion of B only
Archery: D - > allow the current archery promotion of D only
etc.

You could also allow a limited number of combat type promotions if this is too rigid. Or even a promotion that, say, increases all combat type promotions by 1.

Obviously, you would need to go through each Hero and bump up their combat type promotions. It would also be obvious to the player what the hero specializes in.

In any event, I think it maintains specialization while also allowing for a Hero to lead any combat type as needed. They won't be as effective as a specialist because their hero promotion will be limited, and, if you also implement the idea below, their bonus promotions will not be tailored to that combat type.

The other idea is merely seconding what Ambreville already suggested: I also second the recommendation of biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.

Oh, I also second Ambreville's idea of allowing you to execute a treacherous hero! He had a hero twice betray him: so did I! I wanted to use the delete button, but that is not a proper execution!

First of all, this is a wonderful mod. Keep up the great work.

My recommendation: every hero is pre-assigned the level of each of the combat types. The new hero promotion (D, C, B, A, S as well) has two effects: each level increases the number of units he can command (you can easily tailor this to any maximum legion size you want), and provides the bonus now found in the current combat type promotion. However, as you level up the new hero promotion, its effective level is limited to the preset combat type maximum. So, for example:

Hero promotion: S
Melee: S -> allow the current melee promotion of S
Mounted: B -> allow the current mounted promotion of B only
Archery: D - > allow the current archery promotion of D only
etc.

Thanks for the advice, however, due to my English ability, I don't understand your suggestion. By 'Hero promotion S', what do you mean, what effect does this promotion have? Also I don't understand this, 'as you level up the new hero promotion, its effective level is limited to the preset combat type maximum'.

You could also allow a limited number of combat type promotions if this is too rigid. Or even a promotion that, say, increases all combat type promotions by 1.

Obviously, you would need to go through each Hero and bump up their combat type promotions. It would also be obvious to the player what the hero specializes in.

Can anyone explain this paragraph to me?:confused:

In any event, I think it maintains specialization while also allowing for a Hero to lead any combat type as needed. They won't be as effective as a specialist because their hero promotion will be limited, and, if you also implement the idea below, their bonus promotions will not be tailored to that combat type.

The other idea is merely seconding what Ambreville already suggested: I also second the recommendation of biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.

Oh, I also second Ambreville's idea of allowing you to execute a treacherous hero! He had a hero twice betray him: so did I! I wanted to use the delete button, but that is not a proper execution!

'biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.' I think ALL historical heroes currently in the mod has their ability and potential promotions well tailored. Do you mean random heroes?

Ah, at last I found something I can understand. Execution of your own hero? I can add a option to enable execution when you capture a hero.

(...)'biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.' I think ALL historical heroes currently in the mod has their ability and potential promotions well tailored. Do you mean random heroes?

Ah, at last I found something I can understand. Execution of your own hero? I can add a option to enable execution when you capture a hero.

It is unfortunate you aren't understanding the issue regarding the level/category limitations. Although currently 'well tailored' from your historical point of view, they are a drawback when considered purely from a game point of view. The 'A/B/C/D' structure is completely rigid. Using bonuses/penalties and a dynamic choice of ensuing promotions rather than unchanging templates of levels/categories could accomplish the same thing without locking player in. It would be more flexible and ultimately, a much better game.

Yeah, sorry, I realize I didn't explain it very well.

So, currently a hero has to individually promote his proficiency in each of the combat types (melee, mounted, archery, siege, naval), which I call combat type promotions. He starts with a certain value and he can only achieve a certain predetermined maximum.

I propose that you eliminate this. Instead, each hero is assigned a value for each combat type. So, let's say we have a hero right now who starts with no combat type promotions, but can potentially achieve A/D/A/D/D if you fully promote them. In this system, you would eliminate the ability to increase their proficiency in each combat type. In return, the Hero begins with A/D/A/D/D.

Then you add a separate promotion: lets call it Leadership. Leadership can have the same 5 levels (D, C, B, A, S). For each level of this promotion, the Hero gains two advantages: 1. an increase in the number of units they can lead, and 2. increase the bonus for each combat type promotion.

Let's look at this second advantage more closely. Right now every time you increase a combat type promotion (i.e. going from Melee D to Melee C), your legion troops get a larger bonus. What each level of Leadership would do is allow this bonus for every combat type. Thus, Leadership D would grant the D level bonus for melee/mounted/archery/siege/naval. However, this bonus would be limited by the Hero's predetermined proficiency in each combat type as described above. That is to say, the bonus legion members get can never exceed the proficiency level of the Hero for their combat type.

Let's try another example. Let's say we have this hero with the following starting values:

A: Melee
D: Mounted
B: Archery
D: Siege
/: Naval

So, what would happen at each level of Leadership?

Leadership D: It would be like he has Melee D, Mounted D, Archery D, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership C: It would be like he has Melee C, Mounted D, Archery C, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership B: It would be like he has Melee B, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership A: It would be like he has Melee A, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership S: It would be like he has Melee A, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system. (but he can command more units!)


Now, I thought this system may be too inflexible. I offered the possibility that you add a promotion that would increase the level of each combat type by 1. Thus, our Hero who started with A/D/A/D/D would instead become S/C/S/C/C. Powerful, yes, but you can limit the number of heroes who can get it, and also allow only one level of it.

If you wanted to allow combined arms, I feel like the current system, specifically the combat type promotion system, would not accommodate it well. It would take many promotions (and thus hero levels) to get proficient in different areas to allow effective combined arms. Right now, getting to Melee A and Mounted A is 6 promotions! This is not even counting the "bonus" hero promotions, which really give the flavor that I love about legions.

Indeed, I would like you to focus on these "bonus" promotions! Implementing my idea means that a hero need only focus on one promotion, Leadership, to increase the proficiency of his legion members. This allows him to focus on the "bonus" promotions that can really let him specialize...

I hope this was clear! If not, I will keep trying! :crazyeye:

It is unfortunate you aren't understanding the issue regarding the level/category limitations. Although currently 'well tailored' from your historical point of view, they are a drawback when considered purely from a game point of view. The 'A/B/C/D' structure is completely rigid. Using bonuses/penalties and a dynamic choice of ensuing promotions rather than unchanging templates of levels/categories could accomplish the same thing without locking player in. It would be more flexible and ultimately, a much better game.

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to disagree with the whole gameplay assessment here.
I really don't think the ABCD structure is rigid, since your hero can be promoted in a myriad of different ways. The only limitations that I see are the historical limitations of the commander's ability, which (I'm not sure) it doesn't appear you want to have. The problem with implementing bonuses and penalties would be that if lets say there was a penalty for Cao Cao leading Navy, then nobody would use Cao Cao for navy, and he'd be sitting on the sidelines. If there were actually an incentive to use him for navy, then he'd actually be good at navy in the game and it would be rather unhistorical.

EDIT: so, edorazio, baically your proposing a leadership promotion that would effectively combine the effects of the current ones, but while still retaining the cap right?

Yes. However, since the point is to allow combined arms, I think the max number of legion members should be increased to at least 6. If you like my Leadership promotion idea, its easy to implement since you can make each level increase the size of the legion by one except the last (or maybe first) which can do it by two...

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to disagree

...must you really? ;)

I really don't think the ABCD structure is rigid, since your hero can be promoted in a myriad of different ways. The only limitations that I see are the historical limitations of the commander's ability, which (I'm not sure) it doesn't appear you want to have. The problem with implementing bonuses and penalties would be that if lets say there was a penalty for Cao Cao leading Navy, then nobody would use Cao Cao for navy, and he'd be sitting on the sidelines. If there were actually an incentive to use him for navy, then he'd actually be good at navy in the game and it would be rather unhistorical.

Here's what's bugging me the way this works now.

Based on the current system we have the following situation:

King: "General Tso, you are command the 3,000 pikemen on the right wing. Any questions?"

Tso: "No, Your Majesty. It'll be an honor and a privilege."

King: "General Kung Pao, you will lead the 2,000 light cavalry on the left wing. Any questions?"

Kung Pao: "Well, Your Majesty, it's just I'd rather command Tso's 3,000 pikemen because I can't seem to find it in myself to command the 2,000 light cavalry, even poorly I'm afraid."

King: "What about 1,000 of my best Tiger Horsemen instead?"

Kung Pao: "So sorry, Your Majesty, as exciting as it sounds I just wouldn't know how. In fact, I'm not sure I've figured out how to mount a horse yet. Could I borrow your chariot perhaps? I heard it comes with a driver."

King: "You most certain may not, you worthless hero. How about you General Tso?"

Tso: "Well, at least I can ride a horse. I'm able to command that magnificent thousand Tiger Horsemen, but not the 2,000 light cavalry. I might stretch it a teensy bit and lead 1,100, maybe even 1,200 on a downward slope and in a straight line, but 1,201 would most definitely exceed my mental capabilities. So geez, I couldn't possibly do the whole 2,000, obviously."

etc.

Get my point?

When I look at the present structure, this is what I see. Fundamentally, this situation is absurd. You are most welcome to utterly disagree, but that doesn't change the facts. If you can command 4 units of something, you CAN command 4 units of something else, even if you might totally suck at it. Using the excuse this is "historical" doesn't hold water either. You show me a general capable of commanding 1,000 swordsmen but who couldn't an equivalent force of archers or cavalry. Bogus! Historically, warlords commanded very diverse forces and were masters at adapting to the situations they faced. The present system is not historical, it's not realistic, it's not flexible -- a pain the saddle for the gamers is what it is.

Well, the fact that they could have commanded them but poorly, and therefore should be allowed to command them, should give them NEGATIVE bonuses.

E.g. In the battle of Red Cliff, one ruse of Zhou Yu was to have Cao Cao execute his 2 former Liu Biao and since defected naval commanders, Cao Mao and Zhang Yun, which probably led to the disastrous linking of the ships and subsequent burning of the navy. (The film version is probably not historical since it was the 2 naval commanders who suggested the linking in the film)

It is unfortunate you aren't understanding the issue regarding the level/category limitations. Although currently 'well tailored' from your historical point of view, they are a drawback when considered purely from a game point of view. The 'A/B/C/D' structure is completely rigid. Using bonuses/penalties and a dynamic choice of ensuing promotions rather than unchanging templates of levels/categories could accomplish the same thing without locking player in. It would be more flexible and ultimately, a much better game.

I share your concern about the current system not being realistic and is a bit restrictive. If we do as you proposed, it would be a hero can command the same number of units regardless of combat type. Besides it's a real PITA to rewrite the entire rule, AI, and interface of legion system, there will be other consequences. For example, the hero's other 'bonus' promotions will apply to his legion members even if he sucks at the type, such as vigorous promotion will apply to all naval members even if the hero is a northerner.

The idea is good, I believe it could be the right direction, but come on, give me a more compelling and complete design if you want to persuade me to spend yet another 100 hours on legion system to do as you wish.

Yeah, sorry, I realize I didn't explain it very well.

So, currently a hero has to individually promote his proficiency in each of the combat types (melee, mounted, archery, siege, naval), which I call combat type promotions. He starts with a certain value and he can only achieve a certain predetermined maximum.

I propose that you eliminate this. Instead, each hero is assigned a value for each combat type. So, let's say we have a hero right now who starts with no combat type promotions, but can potentially achieve A/D/A/D/D if you fully promote them. In this system, you would eliminate the ability to increase their proficiency in each combat type. In return, the Hero begins with A/D/A/D/D.

Then you add a separate promotion: lets call it Leadership. Leadership can have the same 5 levels (D, C, B, A, S). For each level of this promotion, the Hero gains two advantages: 1. an increase in the number of units they can lead, and 2. increase the bonus for each combat type promotion.

Let's look at this second advantage more closely. Right now every time you increase a combat type promotion (i.e. going from Melee D to Melee C), your legion troops get a larger bonus. What each level of Leadership would do is allow this bonus for every combat type. Thus, Leadership D would grant the D level bonus for melee/mounted/archery/siege/naval. However, this bonus would be limited by the Hero's predetermined proficiency in each combat type as described above. That is to say, the bonus legion members get can never exceed the proficiency level of the Hero for their combat type.

Let's try another example. Let's say we have this hero with the following starting values:

A: Melee
D: Mounted
B: Archery
D: Siege
/: Naval

So, what would happen at each level of Leadership?

Leadership D: It would be like he has Melee D, Mounted D, Archery D, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership C: It would be like he has Melee C, Mounted D, Archery C, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership B: It would be like he has Melee B, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership A: It would be like he has Melee A, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership S: It would be like he has Melee A, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system. (but he can command more units!)


Now, I thought this system may be too inflexible. I offered the possibility that you add a promotion that would increase the level of each combat type by 1. Thus, our Hero who started with A/D/A/D/D would instead become S/C/S/C/C. Powerful, yes, but you can limit the number of heroes who can get it, and also allow only one level of it.

If you wanted to allow combined arms, I feel like the current system, specifically the combat type promotion system, would not accommodate it well. It would take many promotions (and thus hero levels) to get proficient in different areas to allow effective combined arms. Right now, getting to Melee A and Mounted A is 6 promotions! This is not even counting the "bonus" hero promotions, which really give the flavor that I love about legions.

Indeed, I would like you to focus on these "bonus" promotions! Implementing my idea means that a hero need only focus on one promotion, Leadership, to increase the proficiency of his legion members. This allows him to focus on the "bonus" promotions that can really let him specialize...

I hope this was clear! If not, I will keep trying! :crazyeye:

This time I understand much better, thank. It's good advice.

This will allow heroes to level up more quickly. However, this means ALL heroes will choose to level up leadership first ALL the time. No question about it. Because it's so valuable now.

Another slight concern is, this eliminate some player choice when promoting heroes. Because you can just choose 1 promotion and it let you do whatever you want. This might be actually good since player still have to choose when forming legion.

Another really minor concern would be some weaker heroes will have no promotion to choose from quite soon.

I share your concern about the current system not being realistic and is a bit restrictive. If we do as you proposed, it would be a hero can command the same number of units regardless of combat type.

I'm not entirely certain why you tried to say here. I'm advocating a system with a maximum cap of 4 units regardless of categories. I'm also advocating a system whereby if you can command one unit, it's one unit of any type. Do you see the latter as a problem?

Besides it's a real PITA to rewrite the entire rule, AI, and interface of legion system, (...)

Of course it's a pain to redesign something as intricate as that. I totally understand it. Didn't I say that in a previous post?

(...)there will be other consequences. For example, the hero's other 'bonus' promotions will apply to his legion members even if he sucks at the type, such as vigorous promotion will apply to all naval members even if the hero is a northerner.

Yes, of course. It's logical. A bad commander does have a brain and can learn unless he's forever mentally impaired. If this were the case, he wouldn't be a commander. That hero starts the game with an innate penalty (or bonus) to reflect "historical" aptitudes in one category. Promotions are earned on top of that. So what? There is no celestial law that says a westerner or northerner (whatever) can't possibly learn naval warfare in the long run. Sheesh, the Mongols tried (and failed as a result of bad weather IIRC), but at least they DID try!

The idea is good, I believe it could be the right direction, but come on, give me a more compelling and complete design if you want to persuade me to spend yet another 100 hours on legion system to do as you wish.

If it goes in the right direction what else would like to see in a design that would compel you to update a system that does indeed fall a bit short? I gave you some good ideas. I think they ought to be discussed further (and others as well) to see how best to get around the present shortcomings. That's all I was trying to do.

...must you really? ;)
If you can command 4 units of something, you CAN command 4 units of something else, even if you might totally suck at it. Using the excuse this is "historical" doesn't hold water either. You show me a general capable of commanding 1,000 swordsmen but who couldn't an equivalent force of archers or cavalry. Bogus! Historically, warlords commanded very diverse forces and were masters at adapting to the situations they faced. The present system is not historical, it's not realistic, it's not flexible -- a pain the saddle for the gamers is what it is.

I understand your point here, but from a gameplay perspective, it would not make sense to implement penalties for heroes that don't command units well. If there were penalties, then the human would just use the generic units unnatached to the legion. So I'm saying it would be practically impossible to actually make a hero BAD at something and have the player choose to use that. I would think that it would end up in much the same situation as it is here, except that players would end up checking to see if their hero is inept at a certain class instead of seeing a low or / level of aptitude on the hero screen.

I understand your point here, but from a gameplay perspective, it would not make sense to implement penalties for heroes that don't command units well. If there were penalties, then the human would just use the generic units unnatached to the legion. So I'm saying it would be practically impossible to actually make a hero BAD at something and have the player choose to use that. I would think that it would end up in much the same situation as it is here, except that players would end up checking to see if their hero is inept at a certain class instead of seeing a low or / level of aptitude on the hero screen.

In general I agree with your assessment regarding the use of penalties. It is a weakness of the approach I am advocating -- I understand that and it needs to be examined. However, all things considered, I would much rather have that than a situation where by design I don't even have the option of using commanders do to some things at all, ever, or having this totally artificial system where one can command four of these, but only one of that, or none at all of this other one. It makes no sense at all and remains very cumbersome during play. Sorry -- not trying to be a pain, here. That's just my opinion.

It seems to me you are focusing on just the one aspect of using a penalty and missing the big picture as a result.

My gut feeling on this is that players will keep their best commanders to do what they do best, no matter what. By elimination, those who remain end up being considered for roles for which they aren't well suited. Your basic player will almost always pick the one who is the least damaging. What's wrong with that anyway? That's a good, logical choice, especially if you have lots of heroes available from whom to choose, and who happen to be at the right place at the right time. It might not always be so, especially when you run a game that has fewer heroes, or in a situation where practically all of your heroes tend to have the same sort of penalty because of their regional origins -- you know, mountains guys who practically all end up with a naval penalty, island heroes who all have problems with warfare in the desert or in the hills, or desert guys who are terrible at warfare in forested regions, etc. Sometimes you might not have the choice indeed but to use a hero who has a penalty because of circumstances. Seems natural to me.

You start allowing captured heroes to be executed in exchange for some other benefit, and all of a sudden, you might realize that your choice of heroes is becoming quite limited. By the way, right now (playing a scenario with just a standard size map), I end up with far too many heroes anyway. In the last game, I had 30+ heroes. That's way too many. There were seven or eight of them who were just sitting in a city, not so much because I didn't have the troops to give them, but because I just plain didn't need the extra heroes of questionable loyalty and didn't want to bother anyway moving troops from here and there to match their available categories.

As far as using unattached units, that's not necessarily true either. For example, in a randomly generated game, I had a hero with hide-nationality and sea lord IIRC. Even with some kind of penalty, I would have used him as a naval leader anyway just because of the benefits he passed along to ships under his command. Get him up to a point where he can command 4 ships and up his ships' experience, and eventually that commander will be able to overcome his initial combat penalty. Okay?

I think heroes should be allowed to die after a while, and much more easily in battles. Since some figures would not have died if they had not been in battle, maybe after a certain age (estimated if there is no accurate birth year) the chances of them dying naturally should be much higher. The average life span in those years was probably anywhere from 40-60 years old (Cao Cao lived to be a ripe old 65, Sun Ce died at a young 25 while Sun Quan was in his late 60's). I would choose 50 years simply because late game usually means 210 AD at the latest.

But what would you do to the figurehead of the Civ if the hero dies? Is there a possibility of switching Sun Ce to Sun Quan, or Cao Cao to Cao Pi?

There already is a leader death/switch funtion implemented. Sun Ce always passes the rule to Sun Quan and Cao Cao to Cao Pi. Though this should be probably mentioned as a bug, the last time I saw this, the leader name remained the same on the score board.

I think the natural death thing should be implemented, after all it really bugs me to see some guys living an unnaturally long time.

I can add natural death for heroes, but I will not change hero death chance in combat, it will just be the reason for many players to load a save game.

@Ambreville

The problem with your design is, legion get much more powerful, it will break current balance. The reason is all legion members get all member promotion such as vigorous.

However, I do like your idea. So I'll see what I can do about it.

The problem with your design is, legion get much more powerful, it will break current balance. The reason is all legion members get all member promotion such as vigorous.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

However, I do like your idea. So I'll see what I can do about it.

Awesome! Good luck then.

By the way, on the issue of "executing" treacherous heroes (in exchange for some game benefit), there could also be an option to return a captured hero to his former clan in exchange for a ransom. Gee you could almost trade heroes like resources! :D

How about "prisoner exchange" too (trading one prisoner vs another)?

Prisoner exchange is a great idea. (The AI needs to know how to do it though) Cao Cao might hold on to Guan Yu, maybe even have a built in auto-revert after a while if the "native" civ is still alive (crossing 5 passes and slaying 6 generals to do it).

Speaking of loyalties, maybe it's possible to give a NEGATIVE bonus if you use a general against a civ it's 100% loyal?

well, technically shouldn't it be impossible to have a general that is 100% loyal to another civ? I don't think any of the heroes that have changing loyalties make it up to 100. I think Zhang Liao's 90 is the highest.

Guan Yu was 100% loyal to Liu Bei, even when serving under Cao Cao, because Cao Cao spared his life, and he was indebted by his sense of honor to serve his new master until such time that he felt his debt was paid (killing Wen Chow and Yan Liang in personal combat).

That and Cao Cao was holding his family hostage...that could pursuade someone to do things against their will...

well, I was talking in game terms, but I see your point... perhaps it would be interesting to have dead civs get reborn in a random small city (such as Liu Bei after getting defeated, simulating his resilience) and then the heroes that were previously captured from them would then defect back after a while. Maybe with some cool flavor text too detailing the escape.

With the introduction of random heroes, having enough heroes to support your army isn't a huge concern. Indeed I'm apposed to the idea of enlarging the control by enough so that strategy is lost in their location. Nor do I think the idea of combined arms is particularily sensible (archer commanders aren't up there with cavalry..) That said.. there might be a way to appease both parties.

Allow heroes to acquire the ability to lead other heroes with a "Ranking Officer" trait that is automatically assigned to faction leaders and acquirable by heroes that reach level x (8 maybe?) and have at least 1 commander promotion at Rank A. The hero with this trait is then able to form another group type that uses core units of other heroes, up to a limit of 1 hero per 2 ranks of any type, but loses the ability to command any units of their own. In exchange each hero in the group has their commander promotion rank increased by 2 (up to the limit of the Ranking Officer) as well as the ability to use 9 transformation to select any of the non-core abilities of the Ranking Officer. The command range for heroes in this group is 10 and selected heroes require a unit (and consequently at least rank D) to participate.

To give an example:

Let's say Cao Cao Has Rank S Melee, Rank A Mounted, Rank B Siege
That would let him command 2 Melee, 2 Mounted, and 1 Siege Heroes
He chooses to control Dian Wei (Rank B Melee) and Cao Ren (Rank C Siege)
Dian Wei Improves to Rank S and gains command of 2 more units as a result
Cao Ren Improves to Rank B and gains command of 1 more unit as a result
Cao Cao may still command 1 Melee and 2 Mounted Heroes
Cao Cao would continue to gain xp (reduced) from troops in both legions

Hopefully this should help prevent emerging heroes from not being used due to low xp, and to make selection of additional ranks in other commands a viable option.

On the note of making vigorous core unit only, please keep in mind that +4 strength is not worth 4 promotions if it only affects the core unit, and if you choose to adjust this I highly recommend reducing this to 1 promotion and making it available only for generals that normally have rank II or higher and having it automatically improve at techs "Syphmology" and "Nine Bestowments".

@Evalis

I love your idea very much! This will go into our plan for the next version.