I'm fighting India as Persia and I can't find anything to counter the war elephants. Spear men are no good really nor are axeman or even mace men. I don't have knights yet. The best I can do now is use war elephants which works out ok but not spectacular.

There's an elephant in the room, it's name is Pikeman.

...

On a serious note, Jumbos do rule their time. They can be countered by other Jumbos or just multiple Spears. This is usually a disadvantageous position to fight, so just avoid waging wars altogether at this time.

Hmm I think spearmen counter them ok, hammer-wise. Spearman is 35 hammers vs 60 for the war elephants. and spearman/c2 vs jumbo c2 is in favor of the spearman (ofc jumbos can get shock)
You get defensive bonuses too. Couple that with some catapults and you are set.

Btw, did you mean defensively or not? For fak's sake knights are NO counter to the jumbos, more the opposite.

Best Jumbo counters

1) Spearmen. Alot cheaper than War elephants even if the odds are 50:50

2) Anotehr war elephant.

3) Pikes.

4) Macemen. These are better than knights.

5) Muskets.

This is an offensive war actually one I started. It's not going well. I haven't managed to take a single city and I managed to lose all my siege weapons trying to take Delhi. I did pillage and loot everything possible and most of their cities are starving so I guess that's a point for me

I dont get it. They defend w/ jumbos in the cities and you have siege and can't take 'em? How many were the siege weapons?
You should have brought more siege, simple as that.

No they defend with longbowmen in cities with walls and attack my forces in the countryside with elephants.

Spears as stack defense, try to hug defensive terrain. Fortunately jumbos don't flank damage your siege.

Then, when attacking cities, elephants are pretty terrible vs CR siege, because they don't get defensive bonuses. A CR II catapult or any kind of treb will own them silly, especially after a round of collateral (and the elephant won't come up as a 1st defender, meaning when they're in cities they're doing very little to you or your siege).

The alternative is to kill them or take away their ivory before construction/hbr.

Karalysia, can you give us the composition of your stack? How many siege did you bring? It sounds like a lot of your hassles in that particular game could have been avoided if you properly scouted India's territory and built a large enough invading force from that information.

As others have stated, bring spears for stack defense. Also, you should have scouted India's territory so you could have pillaged his source(s) of elephants so he could not build anymore.

As it stands now you should take a peace treaty and rebuild to attack him after you have a proper attacking force that includes spearman/pikeman for stack defense and enough siege to take out their cities. You should increase your espionage against the Indians and build spies to revolt their cities which would allow you to attack the Indians cities as quickly as possible. Hopefully you can attack his war elephants in his cities where they don't get any defensive bonus with siege and city raider promoted units such as macemen rather than allowing his war eles the chance to attack your stack.

Spearmen.

nothing :mwaha:

nothing :mwaha:

See post #11. ;)

Or alternatively, just whip a mechanized infantry.

See post #11. ;)

Or alternatively, just whip a mechanized infantry.

spearmen? bah. my war elephants crush spearmen. 8+10%+25% > 4+100%+10%

Yeah elephants are a huge pain in the put. The best thing I can say is other elephants, or don't fight. I hard one of those big Horse-Archer rush games. I killed one AI and then the second got elephants. I charged in and pillaged his Jumbo as soon as I could, he rushed 2 elephants out and those 2 elephants killed 9 of my HA... WHAT A NIGHTMARE.

Before pikes spears are best of course. Spears are way cheaper than phants so hammerwise you will always win these fights of course.

spearmen? bah. my war elephants crush spearmen. 8+10%+25% > 4+100%+10%

By the time you have 20 war elephants, I'll have 40 spearmen waiting, each promoted to at least combat 1. If I'm aggressive, I could have shock as well.;)

As others have said, its the hammer difference that makes the spearman a good counter.
With the equivalent number of promotions (+1 for phants due to stables), phants will usually be about 60-40 to beat spears if they are promoted with shock. Even then, you get almost twice as many spears as phants for the same hammer cost. The first spear severely weakens the phant, the second kills it. Obviously this is not counting other units in a stack and extremely simplistic, but you get the picture.

E.g - 6 phants vs 10 spears.
I attack with 6 spears. I win 2, lose 4.
4 remaining spears clean up the damaged phants.

Results : Hammer loss for me - 4 x 35 = 140 hammers. Hammer loss for him - 6 x 60 = 360 hammers. A big win for the spears.

And thats fighting phants with shock .. if they don't have shock it gets even more heavily in favor of the spears.

Yep and in cities or terrain bonus tiles spears are even stronger.

war outside the cities? you never need it. or the elephant want to attack my spear on forested hills?
what can elephant do within city? I'll be glad if they build elephant instead of longbow.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g262/jump_2006/Legolas2.jpg

You can use Spearmen as stack defenders against Elephants, the problem is that Catapults come with the same tech as Elephants, and after a Catapult or two worth of collateral damage, Elephants are going to be 80%+ against damaged Spearman.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g262/jump_2006/Legolas2.jpg

win! :D

You can use Spearmen as stack defenders against Elephants, the problem is that Catapults come with the same tech as Elephants, and after a Catapult or two worth of collateral damage, Elephants are going to be 80%+ against damaged Spearman.

It's amazing how spearmen also own elephants after the latter is hit by some collateral.

Siege dominates stack battles in 1 move warfare.

It's amazing how spearmen also own elephants after the latter is hit by some collateral.

Siege dominates stack battles in 1 move warfare.

True, but when Spearmen attack a stack, they won't be fighting the Elephants, they will be fighting the Axemen. When Elephants attack a stack, they will be fighting the Spearman.

Scouting and good diplomacy could keep you from going against units you're not ready for yet. About the only good early counter to Elephants is Pike men and Longbows. You if you also have Elephants just bring more to the fight than they do and use them wisely.

Scouting and good diplomacy could keep you from going against units you're not ready for yet. About the only good early counter to Elephants is Pike men and Longbows. You if you also have Elephants just bring more to the fight than they do and use them wisely.

Countering elephants with spears is more efficient than countering them with your own elephants.

Countering elephants with spears is more efficient than countering them with your own elephants.

Not necessarily. It could take 2 spears to kill one Elephant. The AI tends to make a lot of tactical errors, so there's sometimes an opportunity to get a 2-1 exchange in your favor if you have similar units/greater numbers.

I tend to bring a mixed group, some spears, some axes, some chariots, some swords, etc. If I get Ivory, Elephants make up about 1/2 of my first SoD.

Good choices listed for countering the elephants but personally I say if your opponant already has longbows and elephants, wait until you get trebs, pikes and maces to go for him. You're probably only a few techs away, it makes no sense to use spears, cats and swords/axes when you're that close to having a huge advantage.

You have to pick your wars at the right times, cus it sounds like you're the one doing the attacking here. Why you went to war with him right now I'm not quite sure.

Pre war, if they have construction HBR and ivory, it's a good indication to build even more spears than we usually do.