Let's begin with analysing map size.

For comparison, here are the maps from RFC Antiquity (90x40), TAM huge (160x65), TAM standard (80x37) and Greek World (81x81).

Shape:
- The little stretch on one axis is useful to extend the Mediterranean, compared to the peripheral regions.
- I've worked on a extension of the central regions, in particular Italy and Greece, in order to allow more cities.
- The outer ring is thinner, the Sahara is shorter.
- Northern lands are reduced by the addition of the British Isles.


With a size of be 84x80, that is, almost the same of Greek World, the Mediterranean now has the same size of the bigger maps shown above, without going past 7000 plots!


1st preview:
http://rhye.civfanatics.net/civ4/RFGW/1st_preview_c.jpg
Rivers, terrains, features and resources, of course, are still missing.

2nd preview:
http://rhye.civfanatics.net/civ4/RFGW/2nd_preview_c.jpg

3rd preview:
http://rhye.civfanatics.net/civ4/RFGW/5th_preview_c.jpg

4th preview - new map 63x60:
http://rhye.civfanatics.net/civ4/RFGW/7th_preview_resize75.jpg

I will keep posting previews on this thread.

Looking fine

How are you goint the solve the Dardanelles and the Hellespont?

The Black Sea a bit smaller maybe, as there were some Greec colonies overthere?

I have to admit, since this is a historical mod, I would prefer seeing a map that's more like an actual map of Europe than the Greeks' view of it. Considering the Romans had territories that would be outside of that ringed map (western Spain and almost all of Britain), maybe it's better to go for a realistic map.

Remember in that times, weather was different. Sahara was wetter than now, and many european lands were covered by forests (for example Iberia)

I, while not a common voice in the forums, agree with T F. While I think you did a good job with that revised Greek World map, Rhye, I would like to see a move realisticly shaped map. Out of the ones you posted, I think TAM Huge looks the best. Sure, there's uneeded desert in the form of most of the southern portion of the map, but if that's what's needed...

I disagree. This MOD wil be mostly about the classical Greec age and there Roman succesors. It is important that these areas will be larger and more in focus. The ancient civs have there land as wel, the other civs are less important. About Rome, I don't think the AI will be able to conquer the historical area anyway. Same for human players, it was hard enough for us in RFC.

Maybe Persia needs a little work

I agree with SadoMacho, especially about Persia. Persepolis looks like a desert in that screenshot; it's going to need either better land, or a lot of bonuses, to be able to grow into the regional hegemon it ought to be.

Please note that I wrote that terrain was a placeholder.

I'm not using other maps. This won't be a clone of TAM

Maybe Cyprus can be a lot smaller, half the size of Crete? That's how it looks in Hecataeus' map, plus I think it would look better.

I really like the 'Greek view' style map, I think it helps emphasise important areas as well as giving the mod a distinct 'feel'. :)

Also, I cant see the preview in the second post anymore (I could this morning).

Somewhere between TAM and Greek World would be good. Also, Blue Sun makes an interesting point about weather that deserves some consideration.

I like the Greek World map. Reminds me of the Jerusalem "T" maps.

Yeah, the Greek world map is nice for 'feel', but it just feels like since this is supposed to be a historical mod, having a deliberately inaccurate map doesn't make sense. Emphasizing more important bits of the map is fine - like the normal RFC map has an enlarged Europe - but cutting off almost all of Britain just seems a bit much.

BTW, Armorica needs a bit of work too on that map.

It looks good Rhye, great way to center the world on Greece and give them more tiles.

But what are those two blobs in the north. I'm guessing one is Britain but what about the other? - Scandinavian peninsular?
Nothing really happened in the Scandinavian peninsular before 600AD so maybe you could exclude that and add Denmark and larger Britain instead? Those two actually had some interaction with the Mediterannean world.

TDK

I think one 'blob' is Ireland.

I think one 'blob' is Ireland.

If it's based on Erastothenes's map, then they are Ireland and Great Britain.

I've added another preview. I haven't had free time to add some of the changes you suggested, yet.

I'm thinking of changing plains to 2 food, 1 shield and grass to 1 food. And forbidding cities in forests. Northern lands are poor!

One thing I don't understand Rhye, why are there 2 pics in each preview? It seems one is missing the British isles too, and is more focused on Greece and the surrounding areas (even tho Greece is smaller in that picture).

One is how it was in the original GW, and the other is the current status of the RFGW Map.

So the one which includes the British isles is that one that's going to be used for RFC:GW?

yes :)

it's now necessary a talk about resources. Which one were really important for the ancient mediterranean? (Max 3 answers)

Well the first 2 to come to mind are tin (I remember reading that Phoenicia traded with natives in England for tin) and salt. Also, with ships so important...*

*What... I never wrote anything there.... :mischief:

Timber is not a good idea for a resource in my opinion, as most forrests have wood in them, as such if you wanted a resource to provide better ships I would suggest Tar instead. I like Salt and Tin though. :)

Since I assume people will be saying Copper or Bronze or Tin, i'll throw in some other, maybe less obvious ones:

1) Lapis Lazuli (from Afghanistan)
2) Ivory (both elephant and hippo)
3) Glass (in the form of beads, etc... a very important part of trade)

I have many more I would suggest later on, but i wont say them just yet.

Just one request: we need to make trade a big part of this mod. the pottery trade brought huge wealth to certain civs (minoan kamares ware) and should not be represented by resources, but rather bulidings which produce "one source of (pottery X)"

Leaving off what else has already been mentioned...

(1) If you can implement them well, Slaves would be a key ancient resource, but they're tough to simulate. (2) Papyrus would also be an important ancient resource, necessary for the construction of libraries and really any compilation of texts. (3) Olives, too, are an absolute necessity for the ancient Mediterranean, as a major food and commercial source.

Then you have the basics--wheat, cattle, pigs, wool (as a luxury), deer, copper, iron, spices, dyes, wine, etc.--that are already in the game.

Also, lapis lazuli should probably be combined with some other semi-precious stones like turquoise that were also important (as separate from gold and silver, which were much more highly valued and rare). Glass is very good as a separate luxury item, though.

i think papyrus is not as important as we often think... it was for egypt but other than an artistic motif it wasnt really for the rest of the world. in fact most writing was done on clay tablets (cuneiform) and was written in Akkadian (lingua franca for the ancient world) rather than eqyptial hieroglyphs or script on cuneiform.

the reason lapis lazuli would be good is because it encourages trade with afghanistan, which was very important IRL

Well the first 2 to come to mind are tin (I remember reading that Phoenicia traded with natives in England for tin) and salt. Also, with ships so important...*

*What... I never wrote anything there.... :mischief:

Recent evidence shows that the Phoenicians probably never got to Britain. The prime sources of tin were Cornwall and Brittany. It's probable that the tin was traded by Celtic merchants who transported it south down the Rhone to Massillia (Marseilles) and then by ship elsewhere. But tin needs to represented on the map in NW France and SW Britain so it can traded by the Celtic civ to others. Otherwise, bronze becomes impossible, doesn't it?:)

Is there anyway of representing the wine for slaves trade between the Celts and the Greeks, Etruscans then Romans successively?

But in any case, slaves were an important resource.

Lapis lazuli is, essentially, a kind of Gem. Gems would be an appropriate description (so no change). Afghanistan should have a lot of them as it supplied lapis lazuli to the classical world from the very beginning of this mod.

I would also suggest Dye, an EXTREMELY important resource for the social elites of the classical world.

I also agree with King Coltrane that non-natural resources should have an important role; for instance, pottery wares, glassware and textiles. Although in the timespan of RFC, we can assume that all civs generate these goods once they learn the right techs, this is quite different in the timespan of Greek World. When manufacturing was in its infancy, civs developed monopolies in manufactured goods. The Phoenicans specialised in this.

Finally, there should be an equivalent to the late-game luxury wonders in RFC, i.e. Wembley, Graceland and Hollywood. The obvious candidates are the Silk Road and the Spice Trade.

Love the map previews. I prefer the left ones, with a better Crimea and smaller Black Sea. The Nile flood plains should be larger IMO, not for realism but for practical reasons.

Incense as luxury was quite important AFAIK. Also important and not quite mentioned are marble and gold.

Olives, Salt, Tin and Tar (never underestimate it's importance in early boats, could also be used for dromon/greek fire?) all sound good to me, though we should really keep all of the default civ resources that apply to this era as well. Slaves is also a must, the only thing is if we want to represent them with a geographical location or have them as something else entirely, maybe even similar to the pottery production system suggested by King Coltrane.

Slaves would be better represented by a building (slave market)

Slaves maybe as specialists, buildings could give free slave specialists, and the slave version of a great person could join a city like a free slave specialist

A slave cacher unit could be introduced (or even all military units, as often defeted armies were enslaved) giving a slave GP that can join a city.

But then slaves wouldn't be tradeable.

just to respond to jessiecat: the other major source of tin in the ancient world was Afghanistan.

So what's this Tar business all about. I thought you could get it from wood and as such is already represented by forest?

Yeah, tar production has been important for centuries, but as a resource it really makes little sense. It could be a technology or building that helps with ships.

just to respond to jessiecat: the other major source of tin in the ancient world was Afghanistan.

Quite right. I forgot that. Too focused on the RFCE project, I guess.:lol:

the map does seem to give an awful lot of place to the Egyptians and Carthagians but not so much to the Hebrews, Phoenicians and so on? Is that fair/good for gameplay? (I know that's a late comment, but I wanted to make it anyways)

three ressources: Olives, Tin, Amber.

Amber locations: The Baltic! Switzerland, Austria and France,
Tin locations: Turkey, Spain and Britain

new preview posted.

I'm wondering about Tin: what kind of resource would it be? Sounds like a strategic one, but for building what?

new preview posted.

I'm wondering about Tin: what kind of resource would it be? Sounds like a strategic one, but for building what?

Is it possible to give a production bonus to units if you control a resource, like the Walls/Stone bonus? If a unit needs Copper to train, Tin could make production faster. That could represent the strength difference between weak copper weapons and strong bronze weapons.

If not, then it could be an extra prerequisite for Bronze Age troops, e.g.
Level 1 needs Copper
Level 2 needs Copper and Tin
Level 3 needs Iron
as a prerequisite. This is more limiting, though.

Rhye, I am confused by the change to the British isles in this preview, I might be mistaken but is that Ireland north of England?

Great Britain is turned 90 degrees, so I think it makes more sense there than where it was. The British Isles as a whole look quite large for a periphery area though.

And why are there mountains along the Nile?

Great Britain is turned 90 degrees, so I think it makes more sense there than where it was. The British Isles as a whole look quite large for a periphery area though.

And why are there mountains along the Nile?

those are all details borrowed from other ancient maps. Otherwise, Hecataeus's map alone would be pretty poor

The British Isles look great!
However, Cyprus looks pretty big.

new preview posted.

I'm wondering about Tin: what kind of resource would it be? Sounds like a strategic one, but for building what?

It;s impossible to make bronze weapons without tin. That's why it was such a valuable and scarce resource found only in SW Britain, NW France and Afghanistan, as has already been discussed.

It;s impossible to make bronze weapons without tin. That's why it was such a valuable and scarce resource found only in SW Britain, NW France and Afghanistan, as has already been discussed.

you forgot Turkey

I'm following this. You're doing good, Rhye.

new preview. RFGW terrain is the same as RFC, but with light sea

Is the darker sea un-sailable? Because then it is impossible to get from the med to the northern sea, which very a-historical.

But we don't have to use the same rule. Say a tireme can not enter the ocean but a bireme can.

EDIT:
4th preview looks great, from that angle.
BTW, Rhye, are you by any chance in Barcelona? :confused:

I personally like the TAM huge map for the simple reason that it looks quite realistic plus it includes the british isles and with Britian included, you can have the Briton civ as independent (non playable) or as a player controlled civ which would be quite intresting

Just one request: we need to make trade a big part of this mod. the pottery trade brought huge wealth to certain civs (minoan kamares ware) and should not be represented by resources, but rather bulidings which produce "one source of (pottery X)"

I like this idea - we need a way also to make it so that just because you have 1 resource of tar, for example, you can't make 100 triremes - we need a way to limit the number of resource required units per resource you own

If you can do this, Rhye, then the map will obviously need to be very resource-rich.

Also, I assume mercenaries will be used in this mod? If so, I think we need to tie in the mercenaries you can purchase with the resources you own.

In this way, most civs should have 1 resource of say, bronze, but that may just be enough bronze to equip 5 units with bronze swords or axes or spears, etc...

Is the darker sea un-sailable? Because then it is impossible to get from the med to the northern sea, which very a-historical.

Not quite, in fact all early civilizations didn't have the capability to sail in the ocean instead they just had to always be close to the shoreline.

That was his point. The shore line west of Spain, and Africa are ocean tiles, so unless you have a city on the west/north coast of France/Gaul, you can't get to the British Isles. He is not saying he wants to sale across the Atlantic.

oops!:mischief: my bad. Well in that case I agree with you 100%:D

Found the map for the Civilization 5 version of Greek World. Prepare for a trilogy (http://sapiento.deviantart.com/art/Gothic-Cosmology-132711780)!:borg:

Found the map for the Civilization 5 version of Greek World. Prepare for a trilogy (http://sapiento.deviantart.com/art/Gothic-Cosmology-132711780)!:borg:

How do you know about Civilization 5, I didn't know they announced it

T'was a joke :rolleyes:

Found it on Alt Hist forum, reminded me of the Greek World map.

Preview of the new smaller map posted, in actual size.
You can notice that that size of important areas (Greece, Italy,...) hasn't changed much (compared with the central one).
Compare with the Greek World map (at left), much bigger, but with much smaller important areas (and a lot of junk space at the 3 edges).

Besides helping with AI behaviour, it's faster and making city names map for it will be easier.

Looks good, except that Italy seems... fat? I guess I'll do some settler/city names maps again. Anyway if it means a better gameplay that's great.

Indeed fatter is better, but I'll retouch it a bit.

Let's begin with analysing map size.

For comparison, here are the maps from RFC Antiquity (90x40), TAM huge (160x65), TAM standard (80x37) and Greek World (81x81).

Hold it, whats RFC antiquity? And did TAM ever update their mod past the vanilla?

It was a community project. We did a lot of research and completed the map, but never went anywhere past that. It would have been basically RFGW, but witha rectangular instead of a circular map.

I still think the map ZachScape posted a while ago was the best, as it included well enough europe and the Middle East plus a lot of Africa (which we can cut out). The maps posted on the 1 post all don't look that good at all.

I was joking with that map. I just thought it was a cool map that reminded me of this mod. This mod is called Rhye's and Fall of the Greek world... centered around... the well.... Greeks. So we must extort certain areas of the map for optimal gameplay. We need to focus on the centers of civilization first and foremost.
And if you look at the map Rhye based this mod on, Hecataeus' map (http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Bios/HecataeusMap.png), it looks nothing like the real world, so map accuracy is not in the least bit essential.

Thats what the map is going to be based on? Because if it is then I just lost a lot of respect for this mod and for Rhye, especially after a very accurate RFC

*My Birthday* Woot Woot :)

Why? If it is for fun, and it IS accurate. The map doesn't have to be accurate for the game to be accurate. Would you rather a MASSIVE map that is SLOW as molasses and full of barren wastelands?

(also the site I go on most is down on my computer, can somebody tell me if it is down on yous? I don't know where to post it :dunno:. And I don't wan't to waste a post on it. So www.alternatehistory.com/.

:bday:

No I would not like a large map either but couldn't rhye just use an extended map version of RFC's Europe and the Middle East (or just parts of it at least).

And yes the alternative history website is down

And Thank You very much for your happy Birthday note :)

That's what Antiquity was, but this map by Rhye adds to the mood of the setting. Jagex thought so, too, when they released it with Vanilla.

And thank you and your welcome.

GOD! I was playing a game on that site (United and Secede.... it's a map game that I think is REALLY fun). It's just nawt fair! :(

And if you have anything to add about that last part I just posted, PM me. I don't want to waste another post on this thread where it doesn't belong.

I guess its ok, but I think that the Levant (ie. Lebanon, Palestine) should be more fertile with more grassland tiles, especially for Lebanon which has a lot of fertile lands (ie. Bekka valley)

It would be nice to have a large map though.

I guess its ok, but I think that the Levant (ie. Lebanon, Palestine) should be more fertile with more grassland tiles, especially for Lebanon which has a lot of fertile lands (ie. Bekka valley)

Grass in RFGW is less fertile than plains.

It would be nice to have a large map though.

Overall map size isn't the only thing that matters. See the comparison with old Greek World map. It all depends on how you use that space and how much settleable land is available around each civ starting location, which should be a fair amount but not too much.

Thats what the map is going to be based on? Because if it is then I just lost a lot of respect for this mod and for Rhye

This map has the same accuracy as the ancient Greeks and Romans' map. The mod is called RnF of the GREEK WORLD
That said, there are gameplay factors that are just more important than anything else, and in such cases, accuracy has to adapt.