Many people have questioned the worthiness of the Caste System civic, especially in comparison to Slavery. The main criticism is that production capacity tends to be lower, especially before enhancements to workshops have been gained through Guilds and Chemistry.

But calculations show that for large city sizes, workshops become a better source of production compared to the whip. More significantly, the adoption of State Property can really kick a workshop-based economy into full gear.

The real question about Caste System is getting its two separate benefits to work in synergy. Since we know that Guilds, Chemistry, and State Property come into the game only in the middle and late stages of the game, the aim is to schedule a switch to Caste System approximately around that time. The next aim, obviously, is to maximize the other bonus of Caste System while doing so.

The weapon we have at our diposal is invoking the "unlimited" part of "unlimited specialists". In a steady-state progression of city production, a city must operate at 0 food or more to survive. However, in the short-term progression, this is not necessarily true. As long as we limit the total duration of the unlimited specialists period, our cities will not starve!

Enter the Golden Age. The Golden Age provides us two separate benefits that work in synergy: 1) anarchy-free civic switches and 2) an additional +100% bonus to GPP. With the Golden Age, we run as many specialists as we can select in our city screen for all of our GP farms, leaving only enough to grab the high-food tiles. If we have not done so, we also make sure our religion civic is Pacifism up until the last turn of the Golden Age.

Of course, we must prepare for this last-minute sprint in the turns leading up to the Golden Age. We do this by growing the size of our GP Farms so that their total food capacity increases, as well as their total population. During this preparatory phase, our other cities meanwhile can continue to whip infrastructure and/or units as normal.

Once we get the Golden Age, which will typically be the time of sprinting to Liberalism, we unlock our "unlimited specialists" clause to boost both our science and GPP generation.

As for the means of triggering the Golden Age, we can either aim to win the Great Artist from the Music race, or use one of our spare Great Scientists that we have gained right before the start of the Golden Age.

Guilds, Chemistry, and State Property come into the game only in the middle and late stages of the game, the aim is to schedule a switch to Caste System approximately around that time.

This is a valid strategy.

Enter the Golden Age. The Golden Age provides us two separate benefits that work in synergy: 1) anarchy-free civic switches and 2) an additional +100% bonus to GPP. With the Golden Age, we run as many specialists as we can select in our city screen for all of our GP farms, leaving only enough to grab the high-food tiles. If we have not done so, we also make sure our religion civic is Pacifism up until the last turn of the Golden Age.

This is a valid strategy.

But you don't have to use both of them at the same time.

This is a valid strategy.



Glad to find something that we agree on.




This is a valid strategy.

But you don't have to use both of them at the same time.


True, you don't need to use Caste System and the Golden Age at the same time, but look at what it does for you...

We all know that each specialist you run hurts the food supply of your city, because of the 0-food output of each specialist. The Golden Age helps organize your scheduling so that the food-deficit period has maximum positive results, but minimum negative results.

Take two scenarios, for example.

Scenario A

A city runs at +3 food for 16 turns, and then runs at -6 food for 8 turns. Assume that there is no population change during this 24-turn period. Then the food added during the +food period is used to stockpile food reserves for the city.

Scenario B

A city runs at +0 food for 24 turns. Compared to Scenario A, this city has the same net food over the 24-turn period. But the difference is that the specialists that are activated during this 24-turn period do not gain the GPP bonus of the Golden Age...or the GPP bonus of Pacifism, if that civic was not in effect at the beginning.


We can even go a step further by noting that with a granary, the food reserves of a city start at half of the total possible. This extra food from the granary further lessens the amount of food we need to stockpile during the preparatory phase before beginning the food-deficit period of the Golden Age...so it gives us an opportunity of running a small number of specialists (including up to 2 scientists) while stockpiling food for the city.

I meant, you don't have to use both strategies at the same time.

The big problem with switching to Caste System around guilds/SP is that emancipation starts becoming a factor around that time as well.

You are trying to compare a civic geared toward production (slavery) and that benefits from smaller city sizes (making population growth easier) with one that is geared toward great people and "commerce" and larger city sizes (since you want to run many specialists that you otherwise would/could have constructed buildings for).

If you are suggesting running Caste System ONLY during a golden age that would seem to be a doable proposition but if you use a Great Person to start the Golden Age then the Great Person you get during this time frame is basically a wash; although you have better control of the type (i.e., you used an Artist and run max merchants during the Golden Age)

The biggest advantage of Caste System during the timeframe in question is you hopefully have a strong GP farm with lots of people and food and now you want to try and get a merchant for Sushi and your to be Wall Street city or a scientist for your Oxford city or to bulb your way toward Liberalism and/or make catching up in technology easier. It also depends greatly on how strong your other cities are in production and whether they, will a little constant growth, would be able to replace much of the production that slavery was providing.

Note that if you involve SP that you are also very near Biology and Kremlin whipping that will beat workshop production in most cities.

Caste in golden age is a different matter. One word is enough: Music. :)

I meant, you don't have to use both strategies at the same time.

OK, I see what you mean...

Although it's true that the two strategies don't need to be used in combination, there is still an advantage in doing so. Here's why:

If Caste System were used solely for the +1 production bonus for workshops, and not as part of a Golden Age, there would likely be an extra anarchy cost needed to switch into Caste System (unless a "magic number" of other civics were changed at the same time). It would still remain a valuable production civic, but the cost needed to switch into it might not be justified, especially considering that Slavery is also a valuable production civic.

On the other hand, if Caste System were used solely for the GPP generation in a Golden Age, the timing of the Golden Age must also be chosen in order to maximize its effect. If the Golden Age is triggered too early, then the total combined output might not be worthwhile. Furthermore, the population and food capacity of the GP Farm cities activated during the Golden Age might not be sufficiently large to support a high-scale utilization of specialists, if the Golden Age is timed too early. If the Golden Age is triggered too late, then the extra Great People gained from the surge of specialists might not be as useful as if done earlier.




The big problem with switching to Caste System around guilds/SP is that emancipation starts becoming a factor around that time as well.

You are trying to compare a civic geared toward production (slavery) and that benefits from smaller city sizes (making population growth easier) with one that is geared toward great people and "commerce" and larger city sizes (since you want to run many specialists that you otherwise would/could have constructed buildings for).

If you are suggesting running Caste System ONLY during a golden age that would seem to be a doable proposition but if you use a Great Person to start the Golden Age then the Great Person you get during this time frame is basically a wash; although you have better control of the type (i.e., you used an Artist and run max merchants during the Golden Age)

The biggest advantage of Caste System during the timeframe in question is you hopefully have a strong GP farm with lots of people and food and now you want to try and get a merchant for Sushi and your to be Wall Street city or a scientist for your Oxford city or to bulb your way toward Liberalism and/or make catching up in technology easier. It also depends greatly on how strong your other cities are in production and whether they, will a little constant growth, would be able to replace much of the production that slavery was providing.

The timing of the switch to Caste System need not be as late as State Property, but rather the earliest of Guilds, Chemistry, and State Property. Any single one of these, combined with the +1 production from Caste System itself, will be enough to make workshops useful. The accumulation of bonuses over time by gaining each one of these makes workshops very powerful in the end...to the point that sometimes it is desirable to remain in Caste System even though the rest of the world is in Emancipation.

Regarding the use of Caste System in a Golden Age to generate great people, the most valuable aspect is, again, the ability to activate an unlimited number of specialists, to the point of creating a food deficit in your cities. The reason this is powerful is threefold: 1) It maximizes the GPP bonues you can gain from a Golden Age, Pacifism, and other sources 2) By concentrating your utilization of specialists into a shorter time period, you open up a window of time available for using Slavery 3) The transition from Slavery to Caste System is done anarchy-free, thanks to the Golden Age.



Note that if you involve SP that you are also very near Biology and Kremlin whipping that will beat workshop production in most cities.

Caste in golden age is a different matter. One word is enough: Music. :)

As stated earlier, the accumulation of bonuses for workshops is done gradually. In most cases, the bonus from SP is the last one to be gained.

But, I agree...Music is a perfect fit for using Caste System in a Golden Age.

Cutting production in fringe cities (where you'd still whip) for a faster tech pace can definitely be worth it. Caste workshops can be worth it, too. It's merely a judgment call of when, if ever, to make the switch and depends on tile distribution and to a lesser extent neighbors.

Cutting production in fringe cities (where you'd still whip) for a faster tech pace can definitely be worth it. Caste workshops can be worth it, too. It's merely a judgment call of when, if ever, to make the switch and depends on tile distribution and to a lesser extent neighbors.

This is a good generalization, but at some point, when cities have accumulated a large number of buildings, they can already activate more specialists than they can feed. For example, a Library unlocks 2 scientists, a Market unlocks 2 merchants, a Forge unlocks 1 engineer, a Courthouse unlocks 1 spy, etc.

At this point, the "unlimited specialists" component of the Caste System bonus becomes negligible...unless you are aiming for specific type of great person. Quantity-wise, however, once the Industrial Age is reached, chances are that any GP Farm city will have more specialist slots than it can support on a long-term basis.

This directly affects the timing of when the "unlimited specialists" part of the bonus can be valuable. Luckily, this part of the bonus is greatest near the middle part of the game, right before the Liberalism race is decided...and also approximately the same time that either Guilds or Chemistry is gained.

So...there is synergy, after all, between "unlimited specialists" and "+1 hammer for workshops". The synergy is, namely, the same time period exists in the general progression of a game, when both bonuses are likely to have greatest impact.

Nice OP, we need more like this - you should call your strat Temporary-PARC-ing :lol:

The one disadvantage I can see is that I'll often blow a Golden Age to reset civics mid game (like when Democracy is discovered) and using one for a tech burn would lose a turn or two of anarchy by comparison (still might be worth it though).

Of course one could time the end of the PARC-burn to end when you have democracy (or whatever civic you wanted to be in) although I might hurt my brain trying it.

And then there's the Taj-mahal - ouch my heads hurting :crazyeye:

Nice OP, we need more like this - you should call your strat Temporary-PARC-ing :lol:

The one disadvantage I can see is that I'll often blow a Golden Age to reset civics mid game (like when Democracy is discovered) and using one for a tech burn would lose a turn or two of anarchy by comparison (still might be worth it though).

Of course one could time the end of the PARC-burn to end when you have democracy (or whatever civic you wanted to be in) although I might hurt my brain trying it.

And then there's the Taj-mahal - ouch my heads hurting :crazyeye:


The Golden Age I'm using here comes a bit earlier than Democracy. However, besides Universal Suffrage and Emancipation, there are quite a few other civics that can be incorporated into the same anarchy-free switch as Caste System. For example,


Government Civics

Our options in this category are probably more restricted at this time, unless we skipped Hereditary Rule for the previous civic switch. I have done this before with success, in order to save anarchy on the earlier switch. In this case, now is a good time to add the civic anarchy-free.


Legal Civics

With Free Speech and possibly Nationhood unlocked by the end of the Golden Age, a switch into one of these now becomes possible. Or, if the Vassalage option was taken earlier, here is the opportunity to switch out of it.


Labor Civics

If Caste System was only a temporary option, we can fall back to Slavery. Depending on whether we have enough workshops, the decision can be made at this time whether to run Caste System as a long-term civic. Chances are, though, that with good planning, an adequate number of workshops can be built in anticipation for this plan, that we don't need to fall back to Slavery.


Economic Civics

Banking is usually available around the same timeframe as Liberalism and Chemistry. This unlocks Mercantilism, which can be a significant help in some games, especially during this critical time period.


Religion Civics

This category gives us the most options of all. We can either stay in Pacifism, or switch to Theocracy, Organized Religion, Free Religion, depending on the situation.



To address your concern about the need for a switch to Emancipation, I bring three options:


1) Schedule another Golden Age at a later time to cover that civic switch, possibly incorporating other civics to adapt to changing game conditions. This 2nd Golden Age will probably cost 2 great people...but the increased cost is justified by the greater output you will have with a larger empire. There is also a chance that the Taj Mahal could be used to generate the Golden Age...remember that you only need to gain Democracy by the end of the Golden Age, not the beginning.

2) Take the extra anarchy turns to make the civic switch. If you played your cards right, which will be easier because you had help from the well-timed Golden Age with Caste System, you will be in a strong enough position that this anarchy is not a significant loss.

3) Wait for the UN vote for Emancipation to carry you into that civic.

4) Be rebellious and stay in Caste System.


In most situations, I would recommend option 1). Towards the later part of the game, Golden Ages become more profitable with growing empires, and the increased cost is not as bad as it appears, since alternative options for spending your great people become less attractive.

I am interested but confused.

What is this +1 hammer from caste workshops you mention? I wasnt aware caste system improves workshops.

I am interested but confused.

What is this +1 hammer from caste workshops you mention? I wasnt aware caste system improves workshops.


It's a bonus that came with Beyond the Sword. Most of the people on this forum are familiar with Beyond the Sword.


Looking back, it was a good rule change because Caste System was a much weaker civic in earlier versions. Not only did Caste System lack the +1 hammer bonus, but Golden Ages also didn't provide anarchy-free civic switches, before BTS.

Now that the rule changes have been made to Caste System and Golden Ages, Caste System is a very powerful civic in BTS.

spiritual can shift between caste system and slavery frequently.
that's the most powerful thing in game, I think.

spiritual can shift between caste system and slavery frequently.
that's the most powerful thing in game, I think.

True, but you still need to have Golden Ages in order to gain the full set of GPP bonuses for your specialists...

Gaining Constitution as the free tech from Liberalism will open up Representation as an ending civic for the Golden Age. This would allow the extra specialists from Caste System and/or Mercantilism to gain the +3 science bonus, and it would provide further justification for delaying Hereditary Rule.

We can prepare for this combination by gaining Nationalism right before winning the Liberalism race. Since AIs are rather likely to go for this tech, we might want to gain it in trade with one of the following techs:

1) Education, making sure that the Liberalism race is secured

2) Printing Press, with the help of a great scientist bulb

3) Guilds, through tech trade brokering to an AI that still doesn't have it

4) Engineering, through tech trade brokering to an AI that still doesn't have it


It might be necessary to put some research into Nationalism before trading for it, due to the rather high beaker cost.


The drawback of this option is that it takes away the opportunity to gain a bigger tech like Steel. However, it's rather easy to see whether trade opportunities for Nationalism exist at the moment. If they do, then gaining Constitution as the free tech from Liberalism will be opened up, and in turn allow Representation to be incorporated into the anarchy-free civic switching of the Golden Age.

I'll use a GA from grabbing a late music to switch to serfdom to workshop everything. Then we end in caste after just finishing guilds. Then just pop out some units and go to town. If you have a big hammer advantage at this time you can destroy anyone - even if they have a tech lead. And your GP farm maintains your tech pace.

I think what trips up people is not having the number of workers necessary to quickly make that workshop change. And you have to settle into jungle likely to have the grassland advantage.

We need people to post games in threads like these :)

I'll use a GA from grabbing a late music to switch to serfdom to workshop everything. Then we end in caste after just finishing guilds. Then just pop out some units and go to town. If you have a big hammer advantage at this time you can destroy anyone - even if they have a tech lead. And your GP farm maintains your tech pace.


If you were able to demonstrate the effectiveness of the production bonus alone by doing that, it would go a long way in proving that sometimes military and production advantage overshadows tech advantage.

My version of using Caste System during the Golden Age itself was meant to be more moderate, offering a balance of both production and science--trying very hard to milk the GPP bonuses from Pacifism and Golden Age. But variations from the original are certainly welcome, of course...


I think what trips up people is not having the number of workers necessary to quickly make that workshop change. And you have to settle into jungle likely to have the grassland advantage.

I have to admit, I've never thought of it that way...but after you've brought it up, it's certainly worth a try.

My version of using Caste System during the Golden Age itself was meant to be more moderate, offering a balance of both production and science--trying very hard to milk the GPP bonuses from Pacifism and Golden Age. But variations from the original are certainly welcome, of course...

I have to admit, I've never thought of it that way...but after you've brought it up, it's certainly worth a try.

Its important to understand all the potential strategies, my first thoughts were the GPP as you said since you can stay in slavery and just pop into caste/pacifism and bust out a bunch of GPs, but as you play you kind of half run into other strategies that would have worked better if you planned them earlier based on your map.

Right now the GAs I get every game are from music and then from building the Taj. All my strategies revolve around civic switching at those points in the game. A recent game I had a city that at 1 AD could run 8 specialists, but wanted to stay in slavery. I busted out several golden ages and only ran caste during those times - and managed to pop out a lot of great people.

Its important to understand all the potential strategies, my first thoughts were the GPP as you said since you can stay in slavery and just pop into caste/pacifism and bust out a bunch of GPs, but as you play you kind of half run into other strategies that would have worked better if you planned them earlier based on your map.

Right now the GAs I get every game are from music and then from building the Taj. All my strategies revolve around civic switching at those points in the game. A recent game I had a city that at 1 AD could run 8 specialists, but wanted to stay in slavery. I busted out several golden ages and only ran caste during those times - and managed to pop out a lot of great people.


The combo can be very strong indeed...one thing I like to do is run Pacifism anyway, even when I'm in Slavery. During the period before the Golden Age, a Library provides 2 scientists slots and I can get a 3rd slot from one of several buildings.

I find that with typical food levels, however, running 4 or more specialists will tend to stunt growth. With Pacifism, you don't need a spectacular GP Farm to generate enough great people. With 3 specialists in 3 or more cities, you can really get a lot of great people.

As for the choice of the 3rd specialist, I am leaning toward the spy (unlocked by the Courthouse). The 1st non-scientist great person you get can be used on a Golden Age, but the 2nd one is more problematic. Using a spy as your 3rd specialist solves this problem completely since you can use the Great Spy to infiltrate and gain some extra techs.

I find that with typical food levels, however, running 4 or more specialists will tend to stunt growth. With Pacifism, you don't need a spectacular GP Farm to generate enough great people. With 3 specialists in 3 or more cities, you can really get a lot of great people.


Fine-tuning the number of specialists you run before the Golden Age is really the key. You need to strike a balance between gaining the extra +100% bonus from the Golden Age itself, and having enough accumulated GPP before the Golden Age in order to pop another great person in time.

At the moment, I think 3 is the magic number. For a Philosophical leader, 2 might be better because they will accumulate your pre-Golden Age GPP faster, allowing you to allocate more of them to the Golden Age (you will need to have enough food to run extra specialists during the Golden Age, so holding off on the specialists before then allows you to do it more easily).


As for the choice of the 3rd specialist, I am leaning toward the spy (unlocked by the Courthouse). The 1st non-scientist great person you get can be used on a Golden Age, but the 2nd one is more problematic. Using a spy as your 3rd specialist solves this problem completely since you can use the Great Spy to infiltrate and gain some extra techs.

The downside is the lower return from the Courthouse building itself. I think it's a tough choice between Temple, Forge, and Courthouse. The Temple unlocks the priest specialist, which is usually the worst choice...but with the AP bonus the Temple is a bargain. The Forge is somewhere in the middle...popping a Great Engineer is usually not as good as a Great Spy, but usually better than a Great Priest.

Fine-tuning the number of specialists you run before the Golden Age is really the key. You need to strike a balance between gaining the extra +100% bonus from the Golden Age itself, and having enough accumulated GPP before the Golden Age in order to pop another great person in time.

At the moment, I think 3 is the magic number. For a Philosophical leader, 2 might be better because they will accumulate your pre-Golden Age GPP faster, allowing you to allocate more of them to the Golden Age (you will need to have enough food to run extra specialists during the Golden Age, so holding off on the specialists before then allows you to do it more easily).



Actually, it's simpler than that, now that I've thought about it again. All you need to do is ensure that your food bin is at near maximum when you start the Golden Age.

Once your food bin is at near maximum, then you can run as many specialists as your food supply can support, without sacrificing high-yield tiles. Remember that a specialist that is run during Pacifism, even without the Golden Age bonus, is already a very strong use of your population.

Captain Obvious says:

Caste System can be nice when you take over a city. All those unhappy people can be turned into artists, build culture, and starve off.

Or if you build a new city you don’t necessarily need a monument, library, or theater if no foreign cities are nearby, you just use an artist for a little while. Saves :hammers:.

Caste System can be nice when you take over a city. All those unhappy people can be turned into artists, build culture, and starve off

I'd rather have slavery than caste, all those people are whipped in the biggest possible building (or unit) and everyone else learns to shut up.

I'd rather have slavery than caste, all those people are whipped in the biggest possible building (or unit) and everyone else learns to shut up.

Fair enough, and I won’t tell you who to sock it to ;).

BUT if it’s a rather desperate cultural situation, and say it’s a city of 10 or more, the short term cultural power of 5+ artists will be more powerful than whipping libraries, theaters etc.

Fine-tuning the number of specialists you run before the Golden Age is really the key. You need to strike a balance between gaining the extra +100% bonus from the Golden Age itself, and having enough accumulated GPP before the Golden Age in order to pop another great person in time.

At the moment, I think 3 is the magic number. For a Philosophical leader, 2 might be better because they will accumulate your pre-Golden Age GPP faster, allowing you to allocate more of them to the Golden Age (you will need to have enough food to run extra specialists during the Golden Age, so holding off on the specialists before then allows you to do it more easily).




Using the 3-specialist approach for pre-Golden Age specialist assignment significantly reduces the demand for winning the Music race, since it requires the use of 1 non-scientist specialist.

When a clear winner for the AP religion is evident, and that religion is available in your cities, the AP Temple becomes the #1 choice of building between Temple, Forge, and Courthouse. We can then wait until after the Golden Age is over, when we have switched to Organized Religion, to build the remaining two buildings.

Using an Organzied leader, one should always prefer the Courthouse over the other two buildings, as popping a Great Spy allows for an alternate usage of the great person besides a Golden Age. This special case keeps open the option of going for the Music race.

With multiple cities running specialists, care should be taken to minimize the risk of popping a non-usable non-scientist great person. This risk appears when multiple cities are running a priest or engineer specialist as the 3rd specialist. It helps to categorize your GP farms into major and minor.

Major GP farms run 3 specialists pre-Golden Age, while minor GP farms run 2 specialists. Both types of GP farms run 2 scientists in additon to the 1 optional non-scientist specialist. If Courthouses are up, then 1 spy specialist can be substituted for either a scientist or non-scientist specialist, depending on whether the GP farm is major or minor. This assumes, of course, that you can make good use of a Great Spy, assuming it comes up.

Major GP farms run 3 specialists pre-Golden Age, while minor GP farms run 2 specialists. Both types of GP farms run 2 scientists in additon to the 1 optional non-scientist specialist. If Courthouses are up, then 1 spy specialist can be substituted for either a scientist or non-scientist specialist, depending on whether the GP farm is major or minor. This assumes, of course, that you can make good use of a Great Spy, assuming it comes up.

If there is a very high-food city that can act as a super GP farm, then building a Market is a good way to open up 2 quick specialist slots during the pre-Golden Age period. This works especially well if the city has a decent amount of commerce or happiness resources to provide additional benefits.

To summarize, the 3 categories of GP farms are characterized as follows:


Super
2 scientists in each city
2 or more non-scientists in each city*
library, market/Great Library/AP temple+courthouse/AP temple+forge**

Major
2 scientists in each city
1 non-scientist in each city***
library, AP temple/courthouse/forge**

Minor
2 scientists in each city
library


* If the Great Library is in this city, then 4 scientists can be used (in addition to the 2 free scientists) instead of 2 scientists + 2 non-scientists.

** For Spiritual leaders, a non-AP temple can be used instead of an AP temple, courthouse or forge.

*** If there are multiple Super or Major GP farms being used, only one should be using a non-scientist, non-spy specialist.

It's a lot easier to set up a super GP farm if you don't delay caste system. :p

my problem with caste system is that I believe you have to run slavery at least until you whip universities to get a fast oxford. in my games, soon after that i'll be running into emancipation unhappiness. I usually see people advocating late caste system here in civfanatics, so I'd ask: how bad does the emancipation penaties get? what would be the best way to avoide that? SE/culture slider? free religion and spreading all possible religions everywhere?

my problem with caste system is that I believe you have to run slavery at least until you whip universities to get a fast oxford. in my games, soon after that i'll be running into emancipation unhappiness. I usually see people advocating late caste system here in civfanatics, so I'd ask: how bad does the emancipation penaties get? what would be the best way to avoide that? SE/culture slider? free religion and spreading all possible religions everywhere?

Emancipation unhappiness can hit hard. Beating it depends on the game. Sometimes, it's easier to just adopt it yourself. If you're lucky in your land, you might actually have enough happy resources to defeat it. Or enough happy resources + representation/HR. Natiohood (+2 :) from barracks) can help too, as can free religion if you have access to religions. I mean, a simple empire could see the following:

representation +3
Nationhood/barracks +2
resources +6-8
coliseum +1
religion/temples +4-6 (FR + 2-3 temples per city, if you're lucky)

Right there you have about +16-20 happiness, which can go a long way if your cities are only in the size 12-15 range. You only need maybe 4 happiness resources, which isn't that hard to get in a decent empire (not counting trading for them too). You can also get more for having vassals, being charismatic, UB giving extra happiness.

It's enough to last a decent time even with emancipation. I think I've lasted until I've gotten like +6 unhappy from "We demand emancipation", but then it starts getting tough. You either need lots of land (and lots of resources) or have a really good reason to be avoiding emancipation to stick with it at that point.

Or the best way is that sometimes, your opponents won't even head too much down the emancipation path, and you can safely avoid it for quite a long time. Or you can also try using espionage to revolt people out of emancipation when they switch in, although I haven't tried that myself yet.

It's a lot easier to set up a super GP farm if you don't delay caste system. :p

True...but then you often must decide between an early Academy and an early Philosophy bulb.

Without Philosophy, you can't run Pacifism (unless you have S. Paya), and it is difficult to trade for Philosophy early. Researching it yourself is usually expensive, and the bulb is the most convenient way to get it.

Building National Epic can help, but it requires a lot of hammers (especially without Marble). Chances are that it won't come into play until a bit later in the game.

By delaying Caste System, you ensure that you already have Philosophy (nearly guaranteed), and therefore can also run Pacifism, thus boosting the efficiency of your specialists...without sacrificing an early Academy.

To summarize, the 3 categories of GP farms are characterized as follows:


Super
2 scientists in each city
2 or more non-scientists in each city*
library, market/Great Library/AP temple+courthouse/AP temple+forge**

Major
2 scientists in each city
1 non-scientist in each city***
library, AP temple/courthouse/forge**

Minor
2 scientists in each city
library


* If the Great Library is in this city, then 4 scientists can be used (in addition to the 2 free scientists) instead of 2 scientists + 2 non-scientists.

** For Spiritual leaders, a non-AP temple can be used instead of an AP temple, courthouse or forge.

*** If there are multiple Super or Major GP farms being used, only one should be using a non-scientist, non-spy specialist.

I'm a little confused by this post, since you seem to be specifying the buildings that allow the specialists you enumerate (therefore I assume you are providing this information for the period prior to the use of Caste, since in Caste scientists, merchants, and artists (:yuck:) are unlimited)...yet a library only allows 2 scientists, so how could you have 4 (non-free) scientists "in addition to the 2 free scientists" in the Great Library city? Could you explain?

I'm a little confused by this post, since you seem to be specifying the buildings that allow the specialists you enumerate (therefore I assume you are providing this information for the period prior to the use of Caste, since in Caste scientists, merchants, and artists (:yuck:) are unlimited)...yet a library only allows 2 scientists, so how could you have 4 (non-free) scientists "in addition to the 2 free scientists" in the Great Library city? Could you explain?

As I understand, the Great Library has the special property of providing 2 additional scientist slots. So, if you wanted to, you could assign 2 scientists from the library, 2 scientists from the Great Library, and you would gain an additional 2 scientists automatically--for a total of 6 scientists, before using Caste System.

As I understand, the Great Library has the special property of providing 2 additional scientist slots. So, if you wanted to, you could assign 2 scientists from the library, 2 scientists from the Great Library, and you would gain an additional 2 scientists automatically--for a total of 6 scientists, before using Caste System.

I just checked my last game (BTS 3.19 with the unofficial 3.19 patch). The Great Library was giving +2 Great Scientist :gp: and 2 free scientists, but no scientist slots.

Oxford University provides 3 scientist slots. Maybe you were thrown off if you looked at a city that had both Oxford and the GLib?

I like this idea. I must admit that I rarely use caste system, and as a result seem to get fewer great people (or at least later people) than a lot of the games I see in this forum. My main problem with using caste system is that I very rarely have cities with enough excess food to run more than 2 specialists, so what's the point? But I can definitely see the appeal in running a brief 8-12 turn burst of specialists while starving the city. One question- would you do this in more than one city? Or just do it in one city with a lot of food and maybe the national epic? I don't think you'd be able to get more than 1 great person from one golden age, but I guess you could set it up so you'd get another soon after with the regular 2 scientists.

I've been able to use state property + caste system + workshops to good affect, but I feel like this is really an end game strategy. It hurts your tech pace so badly, that it only seems worthwhile if you know that you'll be able to win a domination/conquest victory with the tech you already have.

I just checked my last game (BTS 3.19 with the unofficial 3.19 patch). The Great Library was giving +2 Great Scientist :gp: and 2 free scientists, but no scientist slots.

Oxford University provides 3 scientist slots. Maybe you were thrown off if you looked at a city that had both Oxford and the GLib?

I must have confused the two wonders...

In that case, if you have enough food for 4 or more specialists, either the Market or a combination of an AP Temple and Forge or Courthouse remain good choices for providing the 3rd and 4th slots.

Just remember, however, that the goal is to continue increasing your food supply and population in preparation for the Golden Age.

This can be tricky considering that your food bin drops to half-full after each new pop. It's like timing a wave that goes up and down, but climbs up gradually. You still want your city to grow in size, but you also want it to grow in food as well.


I like this idea. I must admit that I rarely use caste system, and as a result seem to get fewer great people (or at least later people) than a lot of the games I see in this forum. My main problem with using caste system is that I very rarely have cities with enough excess food to run more than 2 specialists, so what's the point? But I can definitely see the appeal in running a brief 8-12 turn burst of specialists while starving the city. One question- would you do this in more than one city? Or just do it in one city with a lot of food and maybe the national epic? I don't think you'd be able to get more than 1 great person from one golden age, but I guess you could set it up so you'd get another soon after with the regular 2 scientists.


The key here is to build up enough GPP before the Golden Age starts so that those cities can indeed pop a new great person. But, of course, don't overdo it because you also want to gain the extra +100% bonus from the Golden Age.

A main factor that must be considered is the use of Pacifism. Considering the potential of this civic, it would be a shame to limit its use to only the Golden Age...unlike Caste System.

To plan for extended Pacifism, I think it's better to use it before, rather than after, the Golden Age. This is for a few reasons: 1) you want to generate an extra Great Person to start the Golden Age, 2) you want those Great People to come in time for the Liberalism race, and 3) you don't want upkeep costs to rise too high.

With that in mind, it is quite possible to pop multiple Great People during the Golden Age. I recommend using 3 or more GP Farms with this strategy...sometimes 4, in cases where no one city stands out from the rest.


I've been able to use state property + caste system + workshops to good affect, but I feel like this is really an end game strategy. It hurts your tech pace so badly, that it only seems worthwhile if you know that you'll be able to win a domination/conquest victory with the tech you already have.

The main focus is the Golden Age. That said, the Anarchy-free properties of the Golden Age allow you to transition into mid-game Caste System, if that is the plan you have in mind.

With more relaxed requirements for the types of great people generated, you will have more options for your Super and Major GP Farms.

In the recommended buildings I listed, I assumed that Great Scientist and Great Spy were the most desirable great people, and that other types were only allowable to a maximum of one great person.

This is not a hard-and-fast rule, to say the least. For example, if you are equally fine with a Great Merchant as a Great Scientist, then the Market becomes an excellent option of building that you can use in multiple Super or Major GP farms.

A cottaged flood plains city is a prime example of this. Such a city can double as both a commerce city and a GP farm, and the Market will provide the trifecta of benefits: a +25% bonus to gold, a chance for extra happiness, and 2 merchant slots.

Heres my GP farm during my music golden age in my current game. The PYL game.. I am using the GA to generate 3 Great Scientists for use to bulb education and liberalism. Post golden age I will be in slavery for war purposes, but after the war will take the anarchy hit to go back to caste after farming this city and workshopping everywhere else.

I am just starting a war so I'm not going to stay in pacifism. If I wasn't I would stay in caste/pacifism so this city could put out a few more scientists. You don't need slavery for Universities and Oxford if you build caste workshops even at 1f 2h. And education can usually trade for engineering and guilds for the extra hammer. This would have guaranteed me liberalism->steel in this game because i could bulb chemistry but I am busy whipping units out right now and didn't prep for workshops by building more workers.

Edit - I'd appreciate if people posted more screens or saves. I'll add my save here as well.

Edit2 - the music GA also is good for switching to bureaucracy. In this game I actually had no civic or religion switch until this GA where I just went into Judaism and caste, vassalage, HR and pacifiism. At the end I'll be in HR, bureau, slavery, OR (to help me get in universities - oxford, theaters - GT)


http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm149/grashopa2/Civ4ScreenShot0478.jpg

pi-r8 - SP and workshops doesn't have to hurt your tech pace. You just need a cottaged capital with Oxford, settle your GS's and be in rep for the extra beakers on every specialist. My last SP game I had 700+ beakers from the capital which got me a close number 2 in tech and the more cities I took the faster my tech pace increased :)

EDIT - if you don't have pyramids, use the lib to get nationalism and take the Taj golden age to make your switch to caste. During the golden age run serfdom to help your workers farm/workshop over all your cottages. Grab constitution for rep which will really boost tech on the way to State Property.

Interesting and well thought out strategy. Would you then make an effort to build the Mausoleum of Mausollos to extend all of the Golden Age goodness or would the extra duration be too much of a good thing?

Heres my GP farm during my music golden age in my current game. The PYL game.. I am using the GA to generate 3 Great Scientists for use to bulb education and liberalism. Post golden age I will be in slavery for war purposes, but after the war will take the anarchy hit to go back to caste after farming this city and workshopping everywhere else.

I am just starting a war so I'm not going to stay in pacifism. If I wasn't I would stay in caste/pacifism so this city could put out a few more scientists. You don't need slavery for Universities and Oxford if you build caste workshops even at 1f 2h. And education can usually trade for engineering and guilds for the extra hammer. This would have guaranteed me liberalism->steel in this game because i could bulb chemistry but I am busy whipping units out right now and didn't prep for workshops by building more workers.

Edit - I'd appreciate if people posted more screens or saves. I'll add my save here as well.

Edit2 - the music GA also is good for switching to bureaucracy. In this game I actually had no civic or religion switch until this GA where I just went into Judaism and caste, vassalage, HR and pacifiism. At the end I'll be in HR, bureau, slavery, OR (to help me get in universities - oxford, theaters - GT)


http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm149/grashopa2/Civ4ScreenShot0478.jpg



Impressive play...8 cities with good cash flow. Your timing for using the Golden Age is a bit earlier than mine, by about 5 centuries. But the concept is the same. The extra Great Scientists that are gained in the Golden Age can be used to bulb Chemistry, thus opening up Steel as the Liberalism prize.

Another difference is how you assign your specialists, which are all in one city at the moment. In this game, I have taken a multiple-city specialist approach.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8579940&postcount=37


Because I chose not to attempt the Music race, I needed to spend a Great Person to start a Golden Age. It just happens that I popped a Great Prophet in the one city that was running non-scientist specialists, at 600 AD.

Using Slavery during Pacifism in the pre-Golden Age period allowed cities to continue to use the whip, especially the cities that weren't used as GP Farms.

Grashopa, feel free to mention you're playing Deity normal speed for more people to have a look. ;)

I'm curious, why are you preparing for war with catapults at this point? You have 8 cities and room for 2 more at least. America has LBs and Sitting Bull has some 12 cities, why bother? I'd build workers instead, farm everything to slave infrastructure and delay the war. (Immortal player) You don't have a good food to hammer ratio for unit whipping in your big cities, this plan seems odd to me.

Post how it goes, you really have a very good position there!

Yamps - I'll spoiler this in case someone is playing PYL..


Roosevelt (Mr New Deals in this game) has 4 or 5 crap cities and a ~40 gpt shrine which I want to take as soon as possible and the music golden age gives me the ability to put out enough units to do so while still getting the 3 GS's for liberalism and without delaying universities.

The strategy was as Artichoker outlines - the 2 promotions mean I need much less units to war here, but vassalage only during the GA - I end in slavery and plan to switch to caste later... I could have stayed in vassalage and did a bureau/caste switch later(taj?), but bureau gives me the hammers I need now for the university and Oxford which I'll be building next.

My only problem was not realizing I would get Pacal to pleased and be able to trade for his ivory until it was too late to finish my first round of catapults on my first turn of vassalage during the GA. So I didn't get as many 2 promotion units as I wanted out. But I doubt I'll have trouble taking the shrine. And possibly can capitulate him, but I don't have a feel for that in deity. If I cap him, that shrine will be ridiculous at a 100% gold multiplier - I'll be able to run a 100% slider without deficit after courthouses. Until I start with SB.

Also I want to get astronomy and go to the new world (terra map - set up a vassal colony), but I'll probably go for cannons since I want to win by domination. I don't have experience at deity, but I think I will have a long window of dominance at cannons to take out SB and should not have too much of a problem against Monte even if he rolls over everyone since hes so far behind in tech.

Artichoker - Yeah in this game I was attempting to start a war right after the early GA so everyone else was building units. That and I didn't prepare well enough for the GA - no farms, no food deficit which would have allowed 2 or 3 more scientists.

So in my game if I go for liberalism->steel there is an AI that could get lib early and force me to lib chemistry. I'll only have 1 GS to bulb chemistry since I didn't get the max out of my GA.

Well perhaps that is Yamps point since I could have guaranteed lib->steel. But I was considering grabbing astronomy since its a terra map.

pi-r8 - SP and workshops doesn't have to hurt your tech pace. You just need a cottaged capital with Oxford, settle your GS's and be in rep for the extra beakers on every specialist. My last SP game I had 700+ beakers from the capital which got me a close number 2 in tech and the more cities I took the faster my tech pace increased :)

I guess you can still get some tech by doing it that way, but if you're using workshops then the other cities aren't really giving you any commerce except for trade routes. You'd still get a lot more commerce out of them by replacing the workshops with cottages, or farms + scientists. So while it's not impossible to tech up using this strategy, your tech rate is still a lot slower than it could be. The production, of course, is massive, so you could probably add quite a bit by having the workshop cities build research/wealth.

Yeah the hammers are flexibility and give you a 100% slider with wealth which can actually be stronger techwise in certain cases.

I think an important point for the thread is how early can you see your strategy. Or course many times you can pick and choose or force your favorite strategy on the map, but its good to know early which strategy will be dominant. Which is why I love everyone posting - I don't have to try everything myself first :)

Interesting and well thought out strategy. Would you then make an effort to build the Mausoleum of Mausollos to extend all of the Golden Age goodness or would the extra duration be too much of a good thing?


Although I have never tried this combination before, it looks like it could bring some extra potential to the Golden Age.

With a 12-turn Golden Age, your cities have a longer time to enjoy the +100% GPP bonus. For example, let's say your next great person costs 600 GPP. With National Epic/Pacifism/Golden Age you gain +300% GPP. Therefore your base GPP needs to be 1/4 of 600 GPP, or 150 GPP. Assuming 11 turns of GPP generation (leaving 1 turn to switch out of Pacifism), you will need 13.6 GPP/turn. With a normal 8-turn Golden Age, and 7 turns of GPP generation, you will need 21.4 GPP/turn.

The more specialists you assign, however, the harder it is to maintain a feasible food deficit without losing any population. Take the above example, for instance. A 13.6 GPP/turn rate requires 4.5 specialists on average, whereas a 21.4 GPP/turn rate requires 7.1 specialists on average. Let's say you have Grassland Farms as your main source of food. Then every extra specialist creates an additional -3 food deficit, because it means 1 farm that cannot be worked.

Therefore, the 12-turn Golden Age, which only requires 4.5 specialists, compared to the 8-turn Golden Age, which requires 7.1 specialists, results in a food deficit of 3*(7.1-4.5) = 7.8 less than the normal case...which is a huge bonus, in practical terms.

So, yes, it would definitely be worthwhile to look into enhancing this strategy by trying to build the MoM.

It's easy for me to overlook the MoM because I rarely have more than one Golden Age per game so investing that many hammers was a waste of resources. Now that you've shown how a Golden Age can be used for a strategic purpose rather than meeting some short term tactical goal I'll have to reassess the MoM.

This is relevant to the MoM but not so much to Delayed Caste System, since in my last game I didn't use Caste System or produce that many Great People, however, I was highly pleased with the result of building the MoM. I haven't built it very many times, and I started it in this game when my capital was out of other (useful) things to build! ;) I wondered if I should abandon it short of completion for failure :gold:, but I finished it. Well, I ended up getting the Artist from Music, plus building the Taj and using 2 more Great Peeps for 3 total Golden Ages. That was 1.5 x 3 = 4.5 Golden Ages (36 (consecutive!) turns) for the price of 3 Golden Ages (24 turns). Though the eventual outcome wasn't much in doubt by the time I launched the Golden Age-slingshot (see ya, AIs), I did make use of them, too, winning with I think 3 Golden Age turns left. If I remember the finishing turn right, that would mean I spent over 17% of the total number of game turns in Golden Age! (Yes, this game went well :mischief:, with a great random leader and start). The multiple free civic and religion changes were really nice. In some past games I've been a little :mad: at how much of my Golden Age(s) I didn't get to use because victory came too quickly! Prob'ly part of why I'm thinking of moving up another difficulty level...:mischief:

jmas - thats just sick throwing the GAs in at the end like that :)

Artichoker - Yeah in this game I was attempting to start a war right after the early GA so everyone else was building units. That and I didn't prepare well enough for the GA - no farms, no food deficit which would have allowed 2 or 3 more scientists.

So in my game if I go for liberalism->steel there is an AI that could get lib early and force me to lib chemistry. I'll only have 1 GS to bulb chemistry since I didn't get the max out of my GA.

Well perhaps that is Yamps point since I could have guaranteed lib->steel. But I was considering grabbing astronomy since its a terra map.


Your strategy makes innovative use of the close timing of many civics changes, especially with Vassalage. But I think it is more specific to the Great Artist won from the Music race.

Without the Music race, I most likely would have used a Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy, because of its multi-purpose benefits, including Pacifism, progress toward Liberalism, and tech trading.

Assuming the Music race is not open to us, the Great Person used to trigger a Golden Age at a later date (because we cannot afford one at an earlier date) will most likely be generated by the city with the highest GPP output.

Using a Slavery/Pacifism based strategy in the pre-Golden Age period, this city will be the one that satisfies both the Food Supply and Infrastructure requirements for GPP generation. Food Supply is important to support more specialists, and Infrastructure is important to provide extra specialist slots. Most importantly, the single Great Person we spend to trigger a Golden Age can be of any type we wish...

Before the Renassaisance Era, we will be limited to 2 scientists under Slavery/Pacifism (unless we have the Great Library). But since there are other types of specialists we can leverage, why not make the most of what is available? Slavery allows for whipping of infrastructure buildings, which in turn provide more specialist slots, in addition to other benefits. This is the central basis for using Delayed Caste System.

But don't get me wrong...I like your idea of timing the Golden Age earlier rather than later. It maximizes the potential of the free civics changes from the Golden Age, if not the GPP generation.

The Minor GP Farm is an important component of our entire GP Farm system, because the purity of the GPP pool from running only 2 scientists allows us to guarantee generation of Great Scientsts.

But during the Medieval Era, the GPP generation from only 2 specialists is usually not practical for non-Philosophical leaders, who (unlike Philosophical leaders) are not able to enjoy a combined +200% GPP bonus from Philosophical and Pacifism, allowing specialists to generate GPP at triple the normal efficiency.

It is therefore in the best interest of non-Philosophical leaders to focus on using Major and Super GP Farms. A +100% GPP bonus from Pacifism allows non-Philosophical leaders to generate GPP at double normal efficiency. With 3 specialists in a Major GP Farm, a non-Philosophical leader can equal the output of a Minor GP Farm run by a Philosophical leader.

If you ask why...the answer is merely a question of survival. Using 3 specialists instead of 2 provides 50% more raw GPP generation, and taking the plunge to run Caste System instead of Slavery during the pre-Golden Age period is often too costly an option. The best solution is simply to minimize the risk of generating non-desirable Great People types, by broadening our options to utilize different types of Great People.

A prime example of this is the Great Spy, which I mentioned in an earlier post. With its ability to provide massive amounts of espionage points, it stands as a clear rival to the Great Scientist in furthering the interests of our empire.

Eh, Great Spy is okay. Have to risk pissing off a potential ally when trying to steal techs (as usually tech heavies like MM are kept pleased or better for trade opportunities). I'd rather settle the great spy in most cases. Provides good science and increase in raw EP. I hate diverting slider % from science in order to keep a safe eye on AIs.

My preferred GP are Scientists followed by Merchants followed by Great Priests followed by Engineers followed by Spies then the garbage Artists lol.

Then again, once the early scientists have served their purpose (academy in 2 best science cities, bulb Philo / Edu) I'd much rather have merchants for trade missions (therefore 100% science slider). The exception is, of course, the specialist heavy economy and WE/SSE where settled everything in REP is preferable.

Eh, Great Spy is okay. Have to risk pissing off a potential ally when trying to steal techs (as usually tech heavies like MM are kept pleased or better for trade opportunities). I'd rather settle the great spy in most cases. Provides good science and increase in raw EP. I hate diverting slider % from science in order to keep a safe eye on AIs.

My preferred GP are Scientists followed by Merchants followed by Great Priests followed by Engineers followed by Spies then the garbage Artists lol.

Then again, once the early scientists have served their purpose (academy in 2 best science cities, bulb Philo / Edu) I'd much rather have merchants for trade missions (therefore 100% science slider). The exception is, of course, the specialist heavy economy and WE/SSE where settled everything in REP is preferable.


I understand...everybody has different preferences for Great Person types. The main point I am emphasizing is that you should choose at least 1 non-scientist Great Person type that you are comfortable with, and focus on producing the building that unlocks a specialist of that type.

Take your preference of the Great Merchant, for example. If you run 2 GP Farms that each have a Market, then each one can run 2 scientists + 2 merchants. When the first of the 2 GP Farms pops a new GP, it has a 50% chance of being either a Great Merchant or a Great Scientist. Depending on which one you prefer more, the less preferable one can be spent to start a Golden Age, up to the 1st one generated. If you equally value Great Merchants and Great Scientists, then it really doesn't matter which kind of GP is generated.

Or say, for example, that you value Great Merchants slightly less than Great Scientists. In that case, you run 2 scientists + 1 merchant in your 2 GP Farms. Since you will want to start a Golden Age anyway, the 1st Great Merchant can be used for a Golden Age. In the worst case scenario, both GP Farms will generate a Great Merchant, which will happen with a probability of 1/9. Only in this case will you be forced to use the 2nd Great Merchant for something other than a Golden Age (because the 1st one would have been used for a Golden Age).

My thing is that I'll never waste a Merchant or Scientist on a golden age... well... never is a strong word. If I manage to pop a GS in the later game and I haven't used a GP for a gold age yet, I'll use the scientist or a combo scientist/whatever(non merchant). Usually, GrArtists only used for GP based golden age for me. It's situational. If I pop a spy, sometimes he'll be used for a GA if civic switch/GP production is needed.

I have yet to learn how to properly harness golden ages. They're great in my cottage heavy games and I like them. But I haven't found it necessary yet to micro getting more of them

My thing is that I'll never waste a Merchant or Scientist on a golden age... well... never is a strong word. If I manage to pop a GS in the later game and I haven't used a GP for a gold age yet, I'll use the scientist or a combo scientist/whatever(non merchant). Usually, GrArtists only used for GP based golden age for me. It's situational. If I pop a spy, sometimes he'll be used for a GA if civic switch/GP production is needed.

I have yet to learn how to properly harness golden ages. They're great in my cottage heavy games and I like them. But I haven't found it necessary yet to micro getting more of them

But you stated in your earlier post that sometimes you prefer Great Merchants over Great Scientists, that is when you have already built 2 Academies and bulbed Philosohy and Education...

What about the case when you pop a Great Scientist after you have built 2 Academies and bulbed both Philosophy and Education? In that case, if you spend the Great Scientist on a Golden Age, you can use Caste System to generate multiple Great Merchants! You will have a net gain, not a net loss, of Great People...furthermore, you will be able to convert your unwanted Great Person type into something you really want, which is, in this specific situation, a Great Merchant.

My issue with Caste System is that it provides all the wrong slots. I want more engineers! I want more priests if I have the Great Beehive! I want more spies!
To me, it's usually an unfortunate necessity to workshops worth using (and I'm probably already cross if I have to go for State Property instead of going broken with corporations).

Er, well you can't have everything Iranon, old boy!
I think Caste is a very cool civic, though it is tricky to take advantage of. In my current game I am running it in conjunction with Pacifism: I have one city (with the Great Library) with tons of scientists and another GP farm running a boat load of merchants. I am excited to see how it performs.
@ blitz: Golden Ages are your friends! Don't tell me you can't find a use for extra outputs on most every tile (really every tile if you count the specialists bonus)! ;)
Also, welcome back. :thumbsup:

@Iranon: I'm guessing you mean Angkor Wat by the "Great Beehive"? Haven't seen that phrase before.

Also, welcome back. :thumbsup:

Amen, it's good to see you again, blitzkrieg. I was born in NJ you know. Represent! :cool:

@Iranon: I'm guessing you mean Angkor Wat by the "Great Beehive"? Haven't seen that phrase before.

You quoted me, so ima go ahead and quote you!! :p
What is up with that nickname Iranon!? LoL

What about the case when you pop a Great Scientist after you have built 2 Academies and bulbed both Philosophy and Education? In that case, if you spend the Great Scientist on a Golden Age, you can use Caste System to generate multiple Great Merchants!
LoL. Yes, i know :D. That's why i said
well... never is a strong word. If I manage to pop a GS in the later game and I haven't used a GP for a gold age yet, I'll use the scientist or a combo scientist/whatever(non merchant)

AND
@ blitz: Golden Ages are your friends! Don't tell me you can't find a use for extra outputs on most every tile (really every tile if you count the specialists bonus)!
Also, welcome back
Amen, it's good to see you again, blitzkrieg. I was born in NJ you know. Represent!
Thanks guys! It was odd being away for so long, lol. Woot woot Dirtee Jerzee!

You quoted me, so ima go ahead and quote you!!

That's fine with me.. :)

With more relaxed requirements for the types of great people generated, you will have more options for your Super and Major GP Farms.

In the recommended buildings I listed, I assumed that Great Scientist and Great Spy were the most desirable great people, and that other types were only allowable to a maximum of one great person.

This is not a hard-and-fast rule, to say the least. For example, if you are equally fine with a Great Merchant as a Great Scientist, then the Market becomes an excellent option of building that you can use in multiple Super or Major GP farms.

A cottaged flood plains city is a prime example of this. Such a city can double as both a commerce city and a GP farm, and the Market will provide the trifecta of benefits: a +25% bonus to gold, a chance for extra happiness, and 2 merchant slots.


For those players like me who appreciate the value of Great Merchants and Markets in general, the Market can also be a great option for Minor GP Farms as well, besides Major ones.

The key to making them affordable to Minor GP farms is to bypass Libraries and go straight for Markets. This can be very cost-effective when your empire has access to 2 or more resources that provide extra happiness with a Market. For example, many times a Theatre is built for the sole purpose of gaining the +1 happiness from Dye. With a Market, you have the chance for gaining +1 happiness each from several resources.

In these situations, going straight for Markets by bypassing Libraries gives those cities the opportunity to specialize in merchant GP points, rather than scientist points. In this way, a balanced GP composition can be assured.

The Theatre is one of the most peculiar buildings in the game. To some, it is merely a prerequisite building of the Globe Theatre. To others, it is a cheap way to generate culture or happiness (with Dye). In truth, it is all of these at the same time. However, one very often overlooked bonus of the Theatre is the two artist slots that it brings.

With Delayed Caste System, extra specialist slots of any kind are valuable. Scientist and merchant slots are the most universally valuable slots; however, other kinds of slots are useful in special situations. One situation that is common to all specialist slots is starting a Golden Age. In this aspect, all specialist types are equal.

The very low cost of the Theatre relative to the number of slots it provides makes it potentially one of the most valuable buildings in the game, in the right situation. Cities that are contesting valuable tiles via the culture war, for example, make artist specialists very valuable. With Pacifism, the potential to bring in a great person to start a golden age can be pivotal to the overall progress of the game.

Every game, on average, will have one city that has heavily contested tiles. This kind of situation gives way for the artist specialists in that city to be put to efficient use, while also speeding up the progress toward a Golden Age.

An extra bonus is that since Great Person types are random, there is a chance to generate either a Great Artist or a Great Scientist (assuming the other building is a Library). This provides the option of using the Great Artist to start a Golden Age, or to use the Great Scientist as one that was generated by more conventional means.

Music is nice, but is it really necessary? Surely you could potentially net enough GSs to justify making the permanent switch to Caste using Pacifism alone? With a few bulbs you could hit Chemistry before 500AD, trade for Guilds (or even SR it), and potentially use all those workshop hammers to build some Cannons with Steel so close. The great thing about Caste for GS abuse is the bulb line happens to point directly to Communism (Lib, PP, Chemistry and SM).

Music is nice, but is it really necessary? Surely you could potentially net enough GSs to justify making the permanent switch to Caste using Pacifism alone? With a few bulbs you could hit Chemistry before 500AD, trade for Guilds (or even SR it), and potentially use all those workshop hammers to build some Cannons with Steel so close. The great thing about Caste for GS abuse is the bulb line happens to point directly to Communism (Lib, PP, Chemistry and SM).


Music is a gamble, like a lot of other things in the game. In cases where the AI tech progress is not certain, it's a risky gamble because losing the race could mean the loss of hundreds of beakers.

However, the real question that needs to be asked is whether a non-GS Great Person (earned the normal way) spent to trigger a GA is a sound investment. Depending on the timing of assigning this city specialists, you can get out this Great Person with reasonable speed with the help of a Library and Theatre, two buildings that cost under 200 hammers total. This timing can easily accomodate either an early-GA or late-GA strategy, depending on how many specialists you assign in the city.

In almost all cases, I find this investment (mentioned above) to be a sound one. The advantage of using a GA is that it provides an additional +100% GPP bonus, while at the same time allowing you to switch into Caste System, along with other civics, without adding anarchy.

The benefit that comes out of this approach is that instead of using Caste System in the initial switch, but rather saving it for the Golden Age, you can effectively (when playing in Normal Speed) add one more civic to get the total # civics changed for that 1-turn switch to 2.

Of course if you generate a GP to burn for an early civics switch and GP boost, that's one less cheap Golden Age for later. If you are planning a Renaissance/Industrial war, the GP triggered Golden Age could be timed with a Nationhood/Theocracy switch, and hammers/workshops could take preference to the GP pool for developing an army quickly. Whether the timing of a GA is sound/optimum depends on too many factors relative to the specific game to derive a universal conclusion IMO.

Of course if you generate a GP to burn for an early civics switch and GP boost, that's one less cheap Golden Age for later. If you are planning a Renaissance/Industrial war, the GP triggered Golden Age could be timed with a Nationhood/Theocracy switch, and hammers/workshops could take preference to the GP pool for developing an army quickly. Whether the timing of a GA is sound/optimum depends on too many factors relative to the specific game to derive a universal conclusion IMO.

I agree with the last statement. But I'd like to put in a few words in support of Delayed Caste System:

1) It also works with a late-GA strategy. Instead of Caste System+Pacifism as your initial civic switch, you can substitute one other civic (such as a Legal civic) for Caste System. Assuming the Caste System+Pacifism option also adds a Legal civic, that means that 1 turn of anarchy is saved by using the delayed option.

Happiness and specialist slots are provided by buildings. The choice of building depends on what your needs are. For example, a Theatre can be built in a single border city, allowing the possibility to use a Great Artist thus generated to trigger a Golden Age. Commerce cities can build Markets, providing 2 merchant slots. In most cases, 4 slots is more than enough for all except the most food-rich cities. In any case, excess food can be used for growth or whipping. In general, I find that Great Merchants are comparable to Great Scientists in boosting research, but one additional use is the capacity to upgrade military units.

Going back to your example, Nationhood could be used in the Golden Age, although Theocracy would be replaced by Pacifism. Cities that are not GP farming can also contribute to production. Another "favorite civic" of mine is Representation. If you can get Constitution in time for the Golden Age, you can leave the Golden Age with a civic that maintains the productivity of your specialists.

2) With an early-GA strategy, you have two options. The first is to switch to Pacifism right away, and the other is to wait for the GA to make all your early civic switches at once. I tend to prefer the former, as it allows your specialists to become productive right away, while also adding the other civic that is taken in lieu of Caste System.

3) A strategy somewhere between early-GA and late-GA is probably favorable in most cases. As in the late-GA strategy, one other civic is taken instead of Caste System at the beginning. Since the pre-Golden Age period is shorter than the late-GA strategy, you will need to make an effort to utilize Slavery and the other civic you chose. You also will need fewer buildings than the late-GA strategy, as you will be looking forward to a GPP-boosting GA not very far in the future.

Music is nice, but is it really necessary? Surely you could potentially net enough GSs to justify making the permanent switch to Caste using Pacifism alone? With a few bulbs you could hit Chemistry before 500AD, trade for Guilds (or even SR it), and potentially use all those workshop hammers to build some Cannons with Steel so close. The great thing about Caste for GS abuse is the bulb line happens to point directly to Communism (Lib, PP, Chemistry and SM).

how do you bulb liberalism? I always get stuck having to research optics, compass, and astronomy before it'll let me bulb liberalism. I do bulb PP and Chemistry, though. Maybe I should do SM, although usually I get the great library, so it seems like such a waste to get SM early.

If you don't have machinery, you'll be able to bulb lib rather than PP ---> sci meth or toward astro. IIRC you do need to have compass already however.

@pi-r8
You need to avoid Machinery, otherwise you unlock PP, Optics, Astronomy etc. I don't always bulb Liberalism/SM btw, but the line to Communism is there if you want it quickly. If you neglect your infrastructure for aggressive GS generation, then SP workshops can really help to catch up with development. I often head straight for Steel after Chemistry though, and end up trading for SM.


Going back to your example, Nationhood could be used in the Golden Age, although Theocracy would be replaced by Pacifism. Cities that are not GP farming can also contribute to production. Another "favorite civic" of mine is Representation. If you can get Constitution in time for the Golden Age, you can leave the Golden Age with a civic that maintains the productivity of your specialists.


Perhaps my example wasn't clear, I didn't mean switch to Theocracy instead of Pacifism, rather switch to Theocracy after a lengthy period of Pacifism. The main purpose of the first GP Golden Age is to aid a swift total war military build-up, so war civics are a priority. Maybe what I meant could be best illustrated with some screens. This is a small 6 city empire (Deity/Normal), so the cities are forced to perform multiple roles:



100BC Caste/Pacifism (GS farming):

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/The_R00k/ex1.jpg

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/The_R00k/ex2.jpg

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/The_R00k/ex3.jpg



780AD Caste/Nationhood/Theocracy/Golden Age (Production/Drafting):

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/The_R00k/ex4.jpg

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/The_R00k/ex5.jpg

Draft city
http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/The_R00k/ex6.jpg

Perhaps my example wasn't clear, I didn't mean switch to Theocracy instead of Pacifism, rather switch to Theocracy after a lengthy period of Pacifism. The main purpose of the first GP Golden Age is to aid a swift total war military build-up, so war civics are a priority. Maybe what I meant could be best illustrated with some screens. This is a small 6 city empire (Deity/Normal), so the cities are forced to perform multiple roles:




What I meant to say was that Pacifism was chosen both before and during the Golden Age, when using my strategy. So during the Golden Age, I would be using Pacifism instead of Theocracy. This is mainly because some cities may not be finished GP farming at the time the Golden Age begins, so they need an extra boost to get their Great Person out before Pacifism is phased out.

But, yes, I see what you mean. You have switched the role of those cities from GP farming to military production.

I've read some of your games, by the way, and you seem to prefer using the 1st GS on a Philosophy bulb, in many cases. I actually like this strategy, but I'm wondering what your reasons are for using it instead of settling or building an academy. Is it mainly so that you can start using Pacifism earlier?

My main counter to this strategy is that if you assume caste system is temporary, you are only utilizing it for the workshop/GP benefits and then switching back....well then aren't all those workshops you built then sub optimal the rest of the time?

My main counter to this strategy is that if you assume caste system is temporary, you are only utilizing it for the workshop/GP benefits and then switching back....well then aren't all those workshops you built then sub optimal the rest of the time?

I have not assumed that Caste System is temporary. A Golden Age allows a total of 2 sets of civic switches. One of those can be a switch from Slavery to Caste System.

The second set of civic switches, taken at the end of the Golden Age, may or may not include a switch out of Caste System. The decision ultimately depends on the situation. For example, if I decided that workshops were important in the post-Golden Age period, I could stay in Caste System. Or, if there were Great People that were not finished during the Golden Age, staying in Caste System would be one way to finish them.

I've read some of your games, by the way, and you seem to prefer using the 1st GS on a Philosophy bulb, in many cases. I actually like this strategy, but I'm wondering what your reasons are for using it instead of settling or building an academy. Is it mainly so that you can start using Pacifism earlier?

Exactly, the first GS for Philo costs 17 turns, but the next (in the example) will only take 5 turns under Caste/Pacifism (double civics switch) and time nicely with Bureaucracy for Academy. Also, Philo can be a useful trading chip. I don't have any hard rules on this though. Caste/Pacifism is more likely to be useful early with a small/developed empire. With extra space and a bigger rex, slavery might be more beneficial, and aggressive bulbing is less likely to be vital when you don't need to strike in the early Industrial era, and you just have to stay in sight of the AI in the tech race. In general I only settle if I expect the tech rate to be weak for a long time and the scientist may account for a significant percentage of beakers (Classical era warfare for example).

My main counter to this strategy is that if you assume caste system is temporary, you are only utilizing it for the workshop/GP benefits and then switching back....well then aren't all those workshops you built then sub optimal the rest of the time?

Of course you would have to assume Caste is temporary for this to be true. Personally I finish far more games in Caste than Emancipation.

Exactly, the first GS for Philo costs 17 turns, but the next (in the example) will only take 5 turns under Caste/Pacifism (double civics switch) and time nicely with Bureaucracy for Academy. Also, Philo can be a useful trading chip. I don't have any hard rules on this though. Caste/Pacifism is more likely to be useful early with a small/developed empire. With extra space and a bigger rex, slavery might be more beneficial, and aggressive bulbing is less likely to be vital when you don't need to strike in the early Industrial era, and you just have to stay in sight of the AI in the tech race. In general I only settle if I expect the tech rate to be weak for a long time and the scientist may account for a significant percentage of beakers (Classical era warfare for example).



Even with the 1st GS spent on Philosophy, though, I see one scenario where delayed caste system may do better than non-delayed.

Say, for example, you wanted to win the Music race, but with minimal risk. Then to open the Philosophy bulb you take Drama instead of Code of Laws. Once Drama is finished (hopefully you've timed your 1st GS to come out at the same time), whip out a Theatre in a border city and switch to Pacifism (the 2nd civic in the pair is yet to be discussed). Then run 2 scientists and 2 artists in the border city. With Pacifism, it should come out in 9 turns. During the last few turns, if no one has Music yet, tech Literature.

Now, there are 3 possiblities:

1) You get a Great Scientist. In this case, proceed with the game plan you would have taken had you not tried this gambit.

2) You get a Great Artist, and no one has Music yet. Now is your chance to reap your reward. Since Music is only 3rd on the preferences list, after Literature and Drama, you move it up to 1st by teching Literature. You can bulb Music and get another Great Artist for free, effectively gaining yourself a free tech.

3) You get a Great Artist, but someone already has Music. This is the worst case scenario...but it's not that bad, actually, as you can save the Great Artist for a Golden Age.


Now, the tricky part is deciding which civic to use instead of Caste System. If there are some fast-teching AI neighbors, you might be able to gain Feudalism in trade, opening up Vassalage. The default option is Hereditary Rule, which you can unlock by trading for Monarchy.

Once you have Music, you can use it as trade fodder to get some more useful techs, while keeping your free Great Artist ready to start a Golden Age when the time is right.

Now, the tricky part is deciding which civic to use instead of Caste System. If there are some fast-teching AI neighbors, you might be able to gain Feudalism in trade, opening up Vassalage. The default option is Hereditary Rule, which you can unlock by trading for Monarchy.



I might even go out on a limb to recommend delaying Slavery until the Pacifism switch. Depending on the map, you may recover the lost production from delayed Slavery by switching to Pacifism and Slavery at the same time.

Even with the 1st GS spent on Philosophy, though, I see one scenario where delayed caste system may do better than non-delayed.

Say, for example, you wanted to win the Music race, but with minimal risk. Then to open the Philosophy bulb you take Drama instead of Code of Laws. Once Drama is finished (hopefully you've timed your 1st GS to come out at the same time), whip out a Theatre in a border city and switch to Pacifism (the 2nd civic in the pair is yet to be discussed). Then run 2 scientists and 2 artists in the border city. With Pacifism, it should come out in 9 turns. During the last few turns, if no one has Music yet, tech Literature.

Now, there are 3 possiblities:

1) You get a Great Scientist. In this case, proceed with the game plan you would have taken had you not tried this gambit.

2) You get a Great Artist, and no one has Music yet. Now is your chance to reap your reward. Since Music is only 3rd on the preferences list, after Literature and Drama, you move it up to 1st by teching Literature. You can bulb Music and get another Great Artist for free, effectively gaining yourself a free tech.

3) You get a Great Artist, but someone already has Music. This is the worst case scenario...but it's not that bad, actually, as you can save the Great Artist for a Golden Age.


Now, the tricky part is deciding which civic to use instead of Caste System. If there are some fast-teching AI neighbors, you might be able to gain Feudalism in trade, opening up Vassalage. The default option is Hereditary Rule, which you can unlock by trading for Monarchy.

Once you have Music, you can use it as trade fodder to get some more useful techs, while keeping your free Great Artist ready to start a Golden Age when the time is right.


Willem van Orange may be the best leader for this strat. Creative gives cheap Libraries and Theaters, and Financial gives a head start in the early tech race. Plus, more cottages means less whipping on average, so Slavery will not be as big. That means delaying Slavery until Pacifism may not be a bad decision after all.

Now, there is a variation on the number of specialists you run in your Theater city. Instead of 2 scientists + 2 artists, you could also do 1 scientist + 2 artists. This would have the effect of increasing the probability of popping a GA from 1/2 to 2/3, but the drawback would be to lengthen the time to finish the GP from 9 turns to 12 turns. Both variations could be used in different situations, depending on the level of risk of the AI stealing the Music race.

Willem van Orange may be the best leader for this strat. Creative gives cheap Libraries and Theaters, and Financial gives a head start in the early tech race. Plus, more cottages means less whipping on average, so Slavery will not be as big. That means delaying Slavery until Pacifism may not be a bad decision after all.

Now, there is a variation on the number of specialists you run in your Theater city. Instead of 2 scientists + 2 artists, you could also do 1 scientist + 2 artists. This would have the effect of increasing the probability of popping a GA from 1/2 to 2/3, but the drawback would be to lengthen the time to finish the GP from 9 turns to 12 turns. Both variations could be used in different situations, depending on the level of risk of the AI stealing the Music race.


I'll try to post a demo game for this strat sometime soon...although I don't promise to finish.

Pericles (PHI + CRE) is another good one to try besides Willem van Orange (FIN + CRE).

I'll try to post a demo game for this strat sometime soon...although I don't promise to finish.

Pericles (PHI + CRE) is another good one to try besides Willem van Orange (FIN + CRE).


Here is the game (Deity/Fractal/Normal):



3 mini-phases:

1) pre-pacifism, while waiting for religion...run 2 artists

2) during pacifism, when Music race is safe...run 2 artists

3) during pacifism, when Music race is contested...run 2 artists + 2 scientists


http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg


Great Library in capital, built with the help of Marble trade w/Wang Kon.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

Music race result.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg




Now time to return to the Boudica game...

@Artichoker

Interesting play!

@Artichoker

Interesting play!


There are other ways to win the Music race, of course...1) Caste/Pacifism may work, but this requires you to get Code of Laws, Drama, and Literature--which may be difficult if AIs are unwilling to trade those techs, 2) Normal research, but this poses a high risk if you lose the race.

Pericles (CRE + PHI) may actually do better than Willem (CRE + FIN) with Delayed Caste System in general. Although the former may be a bit slower leading up to the Drama beeline--due to the lack of the Financial trait--the Philosophical trait can easily compensate for the following reasons:

1) The 2nd Great Person is less dependent on Pacifism. When racing for the Music bulb, this becomes a significant factor because the prerequisites of the Philosophy bulb (Meditation, Alphabet, and Mathematics) are no longer critical. The inherent +100% bonus from PHI alone may be enough to speed up the Great Artist.

2) The 2 scientist slots provided by the Library will easily be sufficient during the period leading up to the Golden Age (i.e., no need for extra buildings such as the Market to boost specialist slot capacity). This is because 6 base GPP with +200% bonus is equivalent to 9 base GPP with +100% bonus.

3) The hammer bonus for Universities will give a signficant advantage in bringing up Oxford University.


I will try to get a similar demo game up with Pericles (apologies to those following my other series!).

1) The 2nd Great Person is less dependent on Pacifism. When racing for the Music bulb, this becomes a significant factor because the prerequisites of the Philosophy bulb (Meditation, Alphabet, and Mathematics) are no longer critical. The inherent +100% bonus from PHI alone may be enough to speed up the Great Artist.



Correction...Mathematics is still required, as it is a prerequisite of Music. However, Alphabet and Meditation are not necessary.


Here is the Pericles game, with slightly different settings (Deity/Continents/Normal):



Like Willem van Orange, Pericles is also CRE. So there is a +100% production bonus with Libraries and Theatres. But he is PHI instead of FIN...this means a slower tech advance on the Drama beeline. The advantage is that we don't need Pacifism to speed up GPP rate for the Great Artist (although we can certainly use it later).

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/pericles_img1.jpg

Since Libraries were available before Theatres, the 1st GP farm (the capital) got a head start towards generating the 1st Great Scientist. Since I wanted a Great Artist instead, I temporarily stopped GPP flow in the capital in favor of cottages and other high-yield tiles.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/pericles_img2.jpg

Mathematics is a mandatory prerequisite of Music, as well as several other techs. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to trade for Mathematics at the time I needed it. So I researched it instead--which slowed down the timing the Music bulb by about 6 turns.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/pericles_img3.jpg

I traded Drama and Literature to Montezuma for Calendar + some gold. From the tech screen, it is obvious that he is ahead in tech, benefiting from an early Philosophy bulb. Since I won't be able to get a monopoly on Philosophy, I may in fact depend more on Music for its trade potential.

Also, this game is different from the previous one in that it is on a Continents map, so there are 3 AIs that haven't been met yet. When going for the Music race, it is important to monitor the tech progress of the AIs. If using normal research, it is essential to see the tech progress of the AIs in the tech screen...but this is not possible if you haven't met some of the AIs yet. Using a bulb approach instead avoids this problem because you can simply monitor whether a Great Artist has been generated somewhere--thus signalling the end of the Music race. If that Great Artist hasn't arrived, it means that the Music race is still on and you can use your Great Artist to bulb Music and gain another Great Artist.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/pericles_img4.jpg

A map of the current layout of the territory. City placement is not optimal, but I have settled 6 cities with access to many resources, including Stone. Because I was reluctant to settle too close to Shaka, some resources in my territory cannot be worked at the moment (e.g., the plains Cow, Copper, and Iron). The good news, though, is that Shaka chose Churchill as his first target in war.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/pericles_img5.jpg

More comments on the demo.



http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/cfan_album4a/pericles_img5.jpg

The current territory setup still allows settling a 7th city at 1NW of the grassland Iron, just in the right location to gain access to the coast and a fresh water lake, while being able to share 1 Fur and 1 Grassland Cow. There is also room for a possible 8th city on the western border with Shaka to work a single flood plains, but this city would have limited productivity (unless I can push the cultural borders via culture gain or war).

Since cultural borders with Shaka are tight (and he is currently at war with someone else), I may consider the option of settling the Great Artist instead of using it for a Golden Age. There are 2 advantages of doing this: 1) I will have a chance of gaining more culture, allowing me to productively settle an 8th city on the border with Shaka. 2) I will be able to afford generating a 3rd Great Artist for a Golden Age. If I settle the Great Artist, I will probably decide to settle it in the 8th city rather than the capital, so that it can have greater impact on the critical tile culture.

Since cultural borders with Shaka are tight (and he is currently at war with someone else), I may consider the option of settling the Great Artist instead of using it for a Golden Age. There are 2 advantages of doing this: 1) I will have a chance of gaining more culture, allowing me to productively settle an 8th city on the border with Shaka. 2) I will be able to afford generating a 3rd Great Artist for a Golden Age. If I settle the Great Artist, I will probably decide to settle it in the 8th city rather than the capital, so that it can have greater impact on the critical tile culture.



And while we're still on the topic of culture buildup, I might as well take the time to recommend using Zara (CRE + ORG) for this strategy as well. Although ORG does not stack up to FIN or PHI in terms of speeding up the Music bulb, the civic bonus alone does provide about half (according to my count) of the income gain of FIN, at this approximate point in the game. The real synergy, though, is the Stele (UB replacement for Monument), which provides a +25% culture bonus that combines well with the base culture from the settled Great Artist and cheap culture buildings.

I decided to continue with the game. (commentary added)



Because Shaka was winning the war against Churchill and already captured a city, I made a deal with him to stop the war, to prevent vassalization of Churchill, while picking up some spare change in the deal.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/percles_img6.jpg

Here is the "8th city" I mentioned in my earlier post...although it is actually my 7th city, as I have not yet settled a city next to the Iron. I decided to settle the Great Artist in this city for a few reasons:

1) I didn't anticipate starting a Golden Age anytime soon. The combined bonuses of PHI and Pacifism would carry my GPP rate for quite some time, and keeping the Great Artist idle for the Golden Age would give me no gain in the interim.

2) The 3 :gold: from the Great Artist would make a decent showing as an early GP, which is half the :gold: amount of a Great Merchant.

3) The location of the 8th city made it ideal for housing a settled Great Artist. This location would maximize the effect of the 12 :culture:. After not too long, Shaka's nearest city on the western border will be exposed to my own culture, allowing for a lightning fast attack on that city, when the time finally comes.


http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/pericles_img7.jpg

The capital at 450 AD. Notice the following:

1) Culture bonuses from the Library and Theater have doubled already.

2) The main function of the Market at this point in time is to provide specialist slots. Apart from that, the timing of Currency made it a convenient building to work on at that time, with only minimal help from a chopped forest (1 forest chopped).

3) If, by small chance, the next GP is a Great Merchant, it can be used for a trade mission that will provide bonus gold for unit upgrades and research. If this gold is spent after Oxford is built, the research benefit will be enhanced.

4) The abundance of forests at this point in the game help counteract the negative health impact of flood plains.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/pericles_img8.jpg

The tech screen...I am not used to following this tech path, as I typically trade for Feudalism quite early. Since Shaka and Montezuma have hidden bonuses with each other, they are both Friendly with each other, but their tech trade threshold is the lowest for non-Friendly status.

If I am fortunate enough, Churchill will be able to research either Guilds or Engineering in the near future, allowing me to trade for one of them.

For some strange reason, both Shaka and Montezuma got Music without my help. I'm almost sure that it wasn't stolen, as there is no log message that says so. The only explanation seems to be that one of them researched the tech. If that is so, then the Music bulb paid off by slowing down their tech progress.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww349/Artichoker_Pa/pericles_img9.jpg

Recently, my games have taken on a "Delayed Slavery" approach, in which Caste System is adopted before Slavery.

How does it work? Even though Code of Laws comes well after Bronze Working in the tech tree, there can be many reasons to preserve extra population in our cities. When we preserve extra population in our cities, we have the potential to produce more hammers, food, commerce, or gpp.

Why would we want to delay Slavery? Well, it's basically the same reason we would want to delay Caste System. In a normal speed game, we can essentially save one turn of anarchy each time we make two intended civics switches at once. Every time we make a civics switch involving a single civic, we miss the opportunity to make an additional civics switch at the same time.

Both Caste System and Slavery operate on the concept of allocating population. Slavery is a means for us to spend our population, whereas Caste System is a means to employ our population. By having unlimited specialist slots, we have less need for workers, as each new extra population can immediately become a specialist, provided there is enough food. This ability is extremely useful in cases where our cities are close to each other.

Whipping during Slavery operates on a principle similar to "potential energy", where higher population represents higher potential energy. The act of whipping a city expends that city's potential energy. This means that each city's capacity to whip is limited. If we are fresh from a long period of population growth under Caste System, then our cities will have high potential energy to whip during Slavery. This means that the transition from Caste System to Slavery at a later point in the game comes with strong effect.

Any trait that allows us to save hammers in the early game gives us opportunities for delaying Slavery, thereby opening up the possibility of saving a turn of anarchy by switching directly into Caste System. The Creative trait is one example, as it allows us to save a signifcant amount of hammers on Monuments and Libraries.

Skipping bronze working saves a lot of beakers as well. In the last immortal cookbook game with Washington we had a 14+ food city, so I went straight to caste pacifism in order to generate Great Scientists for bulbing out to liberalism, and then Great Merchants for upgrading my Horse Archers to cavalry. I could then switch to slavery and whip cavalry out at that point. Or if I've workshopped enough I trade for chemistry and stay in caste.

It's a bonus that came with Beyond the Sword. Most of the people on this forum are familiar with Beyond the Sword.


Looking back, it was a good rule change because Caste System was a much weaker civic in earlier versions. Not only did Caste System lack the +1 hammer bonus, but Golden Ages also didn't provide anarchy-free civic switches, before BTS.

Now that the rule changes have been made to Caste System and Golden Ages, Caste System is a very powerful civic in BTS.

It was actually a kinda poor change (and the Golden Age change is also disappointing in the end, because it messed with the Spiritual trait unduly) but not worth worrying too much about. Caste System was never a weak civic - it was at least at good as Emancipation and most likely better, and compared to other civic categories it was always quite solid.

It was that Slavery was and remains overpowered, and this didn't fix that problem at all - it only created a further problem with workshops and State Problem which was also a bit of an overpowered strategy to start (the introduction of corporations did help quite a bit here though)

Skipping bronze working saves a lot of beakers as well. In the last immortal cookbook game with Washington we had a 14+ food city, so I went straight to caste pacifism in order to generate Great Scientists for bulbing out to liberalism, and then Great Merchants for upgrading my Horse Archers to cavalry. I could then switch to slavery and whip cavalry out at that point. Or if I've workshopped enough I trade for chemistry and stay in caste.

Expansive has excellent synergy with Delayed Slavery, even more than Creative. I didn't realize it until after I used it with Zara Yaqob. Although Creative helps with establishing culture and building libraries, Expansive is better in the long term because of the +2 health bonus. And once a switch to Caste System has been made, libraries become less important.

Creative is flexible though, in that it helps when using both Delayed Slavery and Delayed Caste System approaches. The big help is that the 1st switch into either Slavery or Caste System can be combined with a switch into another civic (such as Hereditary Rule).

Expansive perhaps doesn't contribute as many early bonus hammers as Creative does, but the long term benefit from extra health has excellent synergy with Delayed Slavery. It doesn't have as much synergy with Delayed Caste System, though, because whipping tends to keep down population levels, thus reducing the benefit from the bonus health.


It was actually a kinda poor change (and the Golden Age change is also disappointing in the end, because it messed with the Spiritual trait unduly) but not worth worrying too much about. Caste System was never a weak civic - it was at least at good as Emancipation and most likely better, and compared to other civic categories it was always quite solid.

It was that Slavery was and remains overpowered, and this didn't fix that problem at all - it only created a further problem with workshops and State Problem which was also a bit of an overpowered strategy to start (the introduction of corporations did help quite a bit here though)

There's a bright side, however...the changes from BTS gave each civic a better chance to shine, at some point in the game. Though the effectiveness of each one was not reduced, the usage of each one is better balanced in BTS, I believe.

Artichoker,

In my current game, whose settings are deity, standard size, normal speed, fractal (ended up being a crowded pangea map) with mehmed, I decided to give the delayed slavery strategy a go.

It's my first time doing it, since I always revolt to slavery early, to get the 3rd or 4th settler faster, so I may need to test it some more. But I'd like to share my early conclusions and doubts.

Early game, I mostly use the whip to rush settlers, monuments (if not creative), granaries and libraries. So, waiting to revolt to slavery ends up making building these things slower, so we have to compare the cost of one turn of anarchy with the cost of the mentioned delays.

Not being able to whip settlers is risky, because you risk losing key spots to the AI by doing so. You can always chop some forests to help, but this will depend on the start and you'll be forgoing the bonus health, wich, otherwise you could keep. Also, you'll be losing some hammers by chopping pre-mathematics, if you could keep the forests until then.

But that doesn't mean you won't be able to have a good number of cities without slavery. Trying to block land will be more important (wich is also made harder due to slower monuments).

Slowing down the library build means a slower 1st GP. Since I tend to use the first Great Scientist for an academy, that's some turns without having the 50% benefit. But that implies the way wich I tend to play, by having the second or 3rd city generate the 1st GP, while the capital focus on worker/settler production. You can always build the library (wich is advisable even if you're not running the scientists specialists) in the capital and run the scientists there, while using other cities to produce worker/settlers. And you can also plan your second city accordingly, planning to chop the library as soon as possible to start running the scientists.

A "no academy" approach is also in order, using the first GP to bulb philosophy or getting a GA first to bulb music, like you did.

But, what seems to be the worst about delaying slavery is that it makes you waste potential hammers due to a small happy cap. You won't be able to grow your cities very large before HR So, you need to stagnate your cities, wich emplies not working the food special tiles most of the time. That means you are wasting early hammers from slavery, wich could be use to whip basic infrastructure on your first cities (monument/granary/library).

A possible counter to this is having early happiness resources or researching Monarchy faster (wich also means you'll be adopting slavery with the same anarchy period), something I'm not used to do. Maybe you could go after Aesthetics (IMO, almost a must on deity for alphabet and Iron working trades, maybe mathematics if you're lucky), but that means delaying currency/risking the music race, if you planned to go that way.

So, I'm not sure if the benefits of delaying slavery offset the ones of adopting it early. But I have to try it some more.

Interesting analysis Ichabod. I think you may have made a typo, which I attempted to bold.
(I think you may have meant build the library "in the capital.") ;)
Slowing down the library build means a slower 1st GP. Since I tend to use the first Great Scientist for an academy, that's some turns without having the 50% benefit. But that implies the way wich I tend to play, by having the second or 3rd city generate the 1st GP, while the capital focus on worker/settler production. You can always build the library (<snip>) on the library and run the scientists there, while using other cities to produce worker/settlers. And you can also plan your second city accordingly, planning to chop the library as soon as possible to start running the scientists.

But, what seems to be the worst about delaying slavery is that it makes you waste potential hammers due to a small happy cap. You won't be able to grow your cities very large before HR So, you need to stagnate your cities, wich emplies not working the food special tiles most of the time. That means you are wasting early hammers from slavery, wich could be use to whip basic infrastructure on your first cities (monument/granary/library).

A possible counter to this is having early happiness resources or researching Monarchy faster (wich also means you'll be adopting slavery with the same anarchy period), something I'm not used to do. Maybe you could go after Aesthetics (IMO, almost a must on deity for alphabet and Iron working trades, maybe mathematics if you're lucky), but that means delaying currency/risking the music race, if you planned to go that way.



There are 4 basic solutions:

1) Try to get Monarchy, as you suggested.

2) Try to chop a Library in critical cities that really need it. Then while stagnating, use the extra food to support more specialists.

3) Use the extra food while stagnating to help produce Workers and Settlers.

4) Build your cities closer to each other, enabling them to share food resources.

A possible counter to this is having early happiness resources or researching Monarchy faster (wich also means you'll be adopting slavery with the same anarchy period), something I'm not used to do. Maybe you could go after Aesthetics (IMO, almost a must on deity for alphabet and Iron working trades, maybe mathematics if you're lucky), but that means delaying currency/risking the music race, if you planned to go that way.



I think early Monarchy is a good idea, as it helps both Delayed Slavery and Delayed Caste System strategies. But I recommend trading for it, rather than researching it, in most cases.

If you have early Monarchy, then the choice is very open whether to use Delayed Slavery or Delayed Caste System. With Delayed Caste System, your target civics for the 1st switch are usually Hereditary Rule + Slavery, whereas with Delayed Slavery, your target civics for the 1st switch are usually Hereditary Rule + Pacifism.

This means that Delayed Slavery usually involves going for an early Philosophy bulb and switch into Pacifism (or early Music bulb when using a Philosophical leader). On the other hand, Delayed Caste System doesn't try to go for early GP Farming since the idea is to utilize whipping from the time you switch to Hereditary Rule + Slavery.

@TheWilltoAct:

Yes, you're right. Thanks! :goodjob:

There are 4 basic solutions:
4) Build your cities closer to each other, enabling them to share food resources.

Never thought of doing this, it's indeed a very nice suggestion.

About trading for monarchy: Again, you're right. My problem is that I tend to delay going for priesthood or monotheism, so I miss a lot of good oportunities to trade for it.

But, while using delayed slavery, if your first switch is to HR + pacifism, wich specialists are you going to run, since you aren't adopting caste system? 2 scientists from libraries are okay. But building markets is difficult in non-capital cities without slavery. Theaters may be easier, but it makes it likely to get a GA (well, you can always use it for a golden age for a vassalage + caste switch).

Maybe the extra GPP generation for using makes running 2 scientists in a couple of cities enough to get you to liberalism first. Again, I need to test it.

Glad to see that this strategy has generated some interest...



Never thought of doing this, it's indeed a very nice suggestion.




This approach has additional synergy with Caste System, as specialists do not occupy any tiles.



About trading for monarchy: Again, you're right. My problem is that I tend to delay going for priesthood or monotheism, so I miss a lot of good oportunities to trade for it.



There are two good opportunities to trade for Monarchy: 1) using Aesthetics, and 2) using Drama or Code of Laws.


But, while using delayed slavery, if your first switch is to HR + pacifism, wich specialists are you going to run, since you aren't adopting caste system? 2 scientists from libraries are okay. But building markets is difficult in non-capital cities without slavery. Theaters may be easier, but it makes it likely to get a GA (well, you can always use it for a golden age for a vassalage + caste switch).



One of the reasons to combine Hereditary Rule and Pacifism into the 1st switch is that you still have allowance of making the 2nd switch, allowing another switch into Caste System and Bureaucracy or Vassalage. There is usually no need to burn a GP this early towards a Golden Age, as GPs are still cheap enough to gain through light GP Farming.

However, if you are slow in starting Caste System, or have reasons to use Serfdom, then you can try bulbing Music with a Great Artist to win another Great Artist. To do this, you can build a Theatre in addition to a Library in your first GP Farm. In this GP Farm, the combination of 2 scientist slots and 2 artist slots gives you 4 slots total. As long as the Music race is still open, popping a Great Artist poses no danger, and is actually your preferred outcome, since you can use it to bulb Music and win another Great Artist. And of course, popping a Great Scientist is no harm at this stage of the game.



Maybe the extra GPP generation for using makes running 2 scientists in a couple of cities enough to get you to liberalism first. Again, I need to test it.


You almost never need to wait that long before a switch into Caste System is naturally available. After all, the 1 turn of anarchy saved earlier puts you ahead in terms of anarchy turns.