Usually when I get a great engineer I use them to rush-build a wonder.

Is this generally the best way to use them, or should I consider settling or bulbing a tech?

Edit: While we're at it, is there a good summary anywhere to the best usage of great people?
When to settle, when to rush-build, when to make academies, when to start golden ages, etc.

Settled GE has better stats than any other settled great person.

If there aren't any wonders left that fit my strategy, I will settle them.

As most everything in CIV, it's situational.

Usually, by the time a GrEng pops, the 'Mids. GrLighthouse, Oracle, Parth. and Colossus are gone. So only marginal wonders at that point. However, if any of the above are still in play, I'll usually rush it. If I've done a doh! move and forgot to start the GrLibr or had warring troubles early, I'll rush the GrLibr.

Other than that, I'll settle if I think I'll get another, or save for Mining inc.

For me, my favorite use is Mining Inc.

Second would be almost any wonder. I will seriously consider taking a detour on the tech tree for a few turns if I pop a GE and see a wonder I might like to have.

I hate settling them, but can't argue that they are excellent in that roll.

I've even used them to bulb a tech here and there, but it sure seems like a waste unless there is a very strategic reason to do it. (Like bulbing machinery WAY early when I'm the Chinese.)

I nearly always use them to build a wonder. Most often I use him to rush the great library in a not-so-productive science city.

Settled GE has better stats than any other settled great person.

If there aren't any wonders left that fit my strategy, I will settle them.

What do you mean better stats? :confused:

Early: Pop moai statues on an island or peninsula with seafood and no production

Late: Mining Inc.

I will use it on a wonder if the AIs have the wonder's tech. I tend to save them for Mining Inc. if they're going to be rare though

What do you mean better stats? :confused:

Correct me if I am mistaken but a GE has 9 hammers + 6 beakers on a rep based economy.

9 Hammers is ALOT.

I sometimes settle GE before TGL or parth, depending on my tech sit and general prod capabilities.
Often the extra hammers will make you complete the early wonders on time anyways.

For things like SoL I will save a GE if it looks I got a chance at it. Simply because it is a damn expensive wonder in times you rather do not spend hammers on wonders.

Correct me if I am mistaken but a GE has 9 hammers + 6 beakers on a rep based economy.

9 Hammers is ALOT.

I sometimes settle GE before TGL or parth, depending on my tech sit and general prod capabilities.
Often the extra hammers will make you complete the early wonders on time anyways.

For things like SoL I will save a GE if it looks I got a chance at it. Simply because it is a damn expensive wonder in times you rather do not spend hammers on wonders.

3, not 9

I don't think I have actually done this, but using it to rush the apostolic palace occurs to me as one good use ....

Must think harder in my next game.

I second the founding corp idea though, definitely worth saving them for that once the early wonders are gone.

Bumping the SoL to the finish line is also a good plan.

Correct me if I am mistaken but a GE has 9 hammers + 6 beakers on a rep based economy.

9 Hammers is ALOT.

I sometimes settle GE before TGL or parth, depending on my tech sit and general prod capabilities.
Often the extra hammers will make you complete the early wonders on time anyways.

For things like SoL I will save a GE if it looks I got a chance at it. Simply because it is a damn expensive wonder in times you rather do not spend hammers on wonders.
it's 3 hammers + 6 beakers, which is still the best you can get.

it's 3 hammers + 6 beakers, which is still the best you can get.
Depends on the game.

High commerce/cottage games, I feel a settled GM in wall street city is the best (18:gold: per turn, 1:food:, 3:science: (in Rep) )

In Wonderspam/SSE or early Rep specialist/settled GP heavy econs, a great scientist nets a total of 29:science: and 1:hammers:

In a hammer econ or military game is good for settled GrEng in Ironworks city gets you 9:hammers: 6:science: (in rep).

But I'd say in a space race (or even some military games) it's better to found Mining Inc. I've had Mining Inc. give me 16:hammers: per city.

Monarch & below advice

Best use of a Great Engineer? Rush a wonder.

Preferably one that isn't rushed by a resource or one that will just take you too long and is crucial to your strategy (for instance, if you have no marble and need a ton of Great Scientists but you already chopped your capital out of its forests, rush the GLib).

it's 3 hammers + 6 beakers, which is still the best you can get.

Great prophets yields 3:hammers: 5:gold: 3:science: (rep/AW). Easily much stronger than settled GEs.

My favorite is to settle GEs and GPs in the capitol (where most of my wonders are). Over time settled GEs and GPs increase your hammers per turn to the point where you can build wonders in just a few turns with an industrious leader.

My second favorite thing to do is to bulb a key tech. The first GE will often give you machinery or some other high priced military tech at a time when it can really make a difference (either getting ahead militarily - or struggling to keep up).

My least favorite thing is to finish a wonder with a GE. I'll only do this if the wonder is essential in some plan for synergy.

If you love wonders, it's better to settle them.

Great prophets yields 3:hammers: 5:gold: 3:science: (rep/AW). Easily much stronger than settled GEs.
AW only adds 1 :hammers: to priest specialists, not Great Prophets. It's still only 2 :hammers:


If you love wonders, it's better to settle them.
You need several settled :hammers: producing GP before starting the desired wonder for this to be true. If you desire wonderspam, rush the wonder and then build another. Settle GEs for military IMO not for wonders (although can be used for both). Or better yet, found Mining Inc. and take 15+:hammers: per turn for late wonders/space race/military win.

Great Prophets only give 2 hammers.

edit: whoops, beaten to it

Great prophets yields 3:hammers: 5:gold: 3:science: (rep/AW). Easily much stronger than settled GEs.
2:hammers: 5:gold: 3:science:

edit: lol

I like using a great engineer to rush west point in my heroic epic city. It usually saves me enough time to build at least 10 extra units, vs if I had built west point normally.

I like that! Especially if you don't have access to stone (+100% build rate for West Point). If I'm on a military domination or conquest run, having a 1 turn West Point in Heroic Epic city is great. On Marathon, it'll save you enough for (sometimes) 15-20 units

I rather use a late GE on Ironworks than WP, or MiningInc if not planning on intercontinental conquest. Rare to get many engineers that late.

The WP, I rather skip altogether ;)

Great engineers are best settled, unless there's a building or wonder you really want to build in one turn (Like the Kremlin).

It depends heavily on your combat style. If building Westpoint gives me 4 (or 5 with CHM) promotion units right out of the gate, I'd rather have WP. More units works just as well as fewer with better promotions. However, if my HE city doesn't have many settled GG or isn't spitting out units fast enough, I may opt for Mining Inc. or Ironworks (if I'm in SP).

If you get it in mid game you could consider bulbing steel. Depends on situation though, if you have enough beakers and not in danger of DOW not needed might be usefull otherwise.

I have rushed the forbidden palace in some "colonial expenses get crazy" game.
I've rushed some late game "resource wonder" (broadway and such).
I've rushed a big part of the pentagon.

It's clearly plan dependant.
When going for conquest, starting from a future start (not a theoretical thing in my mouth), rushing the pentagon is clearly better than anything else.
When going for culture, and lacking marble, rushing sistin chapel is great.

In a more common game, I settle the dude or give myself the mining HQ.

If there is a decent wonder available, rush build a wonder in a border town to steal some land. I usually do it on a border with an AI that I am not planning on attacking for a while...


Other folks have discussed rush building a wonder... but notice that the above strategy is slightly more specific in that it specifies where the rush building takes place.

I am sure it's pretty easy to do the math on rush building vs settling.

Engineer gives 6 hammers. So in 100 turns he will have gained you 600 total hammers. If you rush build a wonder he adds X hammers. I am not sure what the max number of hammers he ads is. I usually don't hit the max as I generally rush Great Library with my engineer. So in my case it's the G-Libs total cost vs hammers per turn.

I don't know how many hammers the great library is off the top of my head.

But it would also you need to take into account how much more important early turns are than later turns. Building the library would tie up the city for 20+ turns when it matters most. While rushing it allows that city to spend 19 turns doing something else, and also nets you 19 turns of 2 free scientist bonuses. So i think rushing wonders (for the most part) is my more beneficial than settling GEs.

You need several settled :hammers: producing GP before starting the desired wonder for this to be true. If you desire wonderspam, rush the wonder and then build another.

I agree on the first point in that you need several (3 or more). I'm thinking of pre-industrial (before factories). You get a :hammers: multiplier with forge. In this case, each settled GP is like a plains hill mine. Each settled GE is like an iron mine.

I'm not sure how rushing a wonder helps except that you would earn more GPP. It certainly won't give you any more hammers (unless it's Ironworks).

IMO If you desire wonderspam then pick an industrial leader and settle all GPs and GEs.

I'm not sure how rushing a wonder helps except that you would earn more GPP. It certainly won't give you any more hammers (unless it's Ironworks).

Rushing a wonder means you get that wonder and can start building another wonder therefore netting you 2 instead of 1 in just a few more turns than if you settled GE. There aren't enough GE in most games to settle with the intent of building wonders faster unless you are IND and have a boosting resource (IE +150% therefore a settled GE is worth 7.5:hammers: per turn).

Settling GE and GP is more efficient if you're aiming for military goals IMO.

Wonderspam is situational for me. Not something I plan on when choosing a leader (even IND as I use that trait for mostly national wonders unless I have stone/marble)

I'm not sure how rushing a wonder helps except that you would earn more GPP. It certainly won't give you any more hammers (unless it's Ironworks).

One obvious reason of course is, if you are at risk of being beaten to the wonder, you auto-win the race. But that is the OBVIOUS reason.

The other reason that is much more important is rushing a wonder saves you 15-30 turns now. Instead of gaining 1000+ hammers over 300 turns and shaving a few turns off a few builds as the game goes on, you save all 15-30 turns right now. Early game turns are worth more than later game turns. It also lets you squeeze in a wonder when you are otherwise busy making troops for war or something. Instead of having one of your best cities waste 20 turns building the great library, and having someone declare on you during that time. You can be building troops without missing a beat.

The third benefit is a GE lets you build a wonder in a city with otherwise low production. Like building Oxford, or Wallstreet in your not-so-production powerhouses.

The third benefit is a GE lets you build a wonder in a city with otherwise low production. Like building Oxford, or Wallstreet in your not-so-production powerhouses.
This one's huge. On Marathon (my preferred speed), this can save you 75+ turns sometimes.

You're making some good points. :)

"Rushing a wonder means you get that wonder and can start building another wonder therefore netting you 2 instead of 1 in just a few more turns than if you settled GE."

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I see that as a short term vs. long term goals argument, like corporate executives looking for a quick profit during the current quarter rather than making a decision that has long term benifits.

If you burn that GE on that one wonder then yes you'll get that one wonder and you can start another one. But what if you were doing this instead:

settling all GEs and GPs in capitol
running beuraucracy and organized religion
industrious leader
forge

Even without stone or marble, there will be a point in the game where that city will produce wonders in a small fraction of the normal number of turns.

Look at Obsoletes early game threads. He proved the point over and over again.

"Early game turns are worth more than later game turns. "

With a similar logic, I could argue that an early settled GE is more valuable than a GE settled later because he will be bringing benifits for more turns. And he will be doing so long after a given wonder becomes obsolete.

Early settled GEs are without a doubt more valuable than later settled GEs.

I would argue to not ever setting a GE unless you are under some very specific circumstances.

Alex, I'm still pondering your "early turns more valuable" concept. It's funny that I've been playing this game for years and spending so many hours reading and occasionally writing something on this site and until now, not been aware of anyone writing something so obvious and valuable with such nonchalance. :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:

Heh well thank you but I can't take all the credit. It has been mentioned with similar nonchalance in GOTMs and other games of very skilled people.

Usually this tree of reasoning sprouts from "to move the settler or not." Because if you have to move before settling you lose 1 turn of research, and production. That means yours first settler comes out 1 turn slower, and you can't settle your second city until 1 turn later. And chaos theory takes over and blah blah.

But if you think about it, it's a pretty obvious concept indeed:

In the early game smaller things matter much more. A "large" force early in the game is 8 chariots, or 6 axemen and that can easily take a city and cripple or destroy an empire. Later in the game a large force is 25 trebs and 15 macemen, later in the game it's 35 tanks.

So in the time it took you to build the pyramids, or great library the hard way, you could have made a reasonable "large" force in the early game (6-10 units) which could win you a war. It is very unlikely that settling a GE and gaining 3 hammers a turn will have such an obvious impact on your game. Even though over the course of the game he will have netted you more total hammers. The majority of them will come at a time when they aren't game breaking.

get GS is much easier. Acadamy rocks.
building pyramids cost/risk too much.

Settled GE has better stats than any other settled great person.


That's an irrelevant point. What matters is the value of a settled GE compared to the other potential uses of a GE.

Because I've never gotten one before the late industrial age, I tend to save them for Mining Inc. or rushing the SoL.

Mining inc is a good option with the GE.

Alex, I'm still pondering your "early turns more valuable" concept. It's funny that I've been playing this game for years and spending so many hours reading and occasionally writing something on this site and until now, not been aware of anyone writing something so obvious and valuable with such nonchalance.

This is related to "cost discounting" which says that paying for something later is better than paying for it sooner if you can invest the money in the meantime. It's not good advice for wonders (you need to get there first) and dangerous for defensive military, but otherwise the basis of good play. Civ is really one big investment analysis game - we could do with a strategy article on this, preferably from someone who plays the game a lot better than me :lol:

Look, I'm not saying that a settled GE is a bad thing. It's one of the better uses for an engineer, but it's all situational. If I pop a GE and the Colossus is still up for grabs but everyone has Metalcasting, I'm going to rush the Colossus and hand-build the Great Library instead of just settling the GE. This almost guarantees 2 wonders instead of 1 faster wonder.

That's a specialized case, though. I'll put it this way, if I'm guaranteed more Great Prophets or Great Engineers in the future, I'll settle them all in my :hammers: city. But if it looks like I'm only going to get 1 GE before my scientists start pumping out, I'm more likely to rush a wonder b/c a 3 hammers boost isn't going to make that much of a difference. Especially if the output of the rushed wonder is worth more than 3 hammers/turn.

I rate GEs so high that there's just a handful of wonders I consider rushing. I'd never rush the Colossus for example, IMO it's a bad wonder (and a fast build as well, the forge is actually harder to build than the Colossus itself with Copper). 'Mids, TGL, Notre Dame and Ironworks are the usual suspects. Maybe the Kremlin in some situations. SoL is a bit more situational, as GE can rush just half of it. Otherwise I'll just MiningInc/settle it. Rushing an "unplanned" wonder through the "oh, shiny!" effect is a waste of a GE imo ;)

The Colossus example shown above was in a situation where it was almost a guaranteed loss but thanks to GE, could get it.

I've never had a game where I could rush the 'Mids with a GE. Would have to Oracle Metalcasting, build a forge, run an engineer, and be PHI for this to even be a consideration.

Great Library with marble is much easier to get than Colossus with copper IMO (unless Oracle -> Metalcasting of course).

FIN leaders with Colossus is awesome. 2:food: 4:commerce: tiles for all coastal/lake tiles? Yes please. It makes early coastal cities with no riverside tiles much better. Seafood tiles become super-tiles 5:food:4:commerce:. Really, I'll only go for Colossus with a FIN leader, though, as there are many other things to be done that are better for non-FIN leaders.

Settling a single GE (3:hammers: 3:science:) with no hope of getting another seems like much more of a waste IMO. Keep him for later Mining Inc. Or rush Parthenon while you are building the Great Library so that the Caste System switch for great people is super-amped.

I don't really understand why you keep saying settling one is useless but settling many is useful. It doesn't seem logical especially in the way you are saying they are being settled in your bureaucracy capital.

Settled GEs don't amplify or anything. Settling a single GE will give you +3 :hammers: settling 3 GEs will give you +9 :hammers: why is one of these MORE worth it than another? Each settled GE helps the capital as much as a settled GE can help the capital. If you are saying it's better to rush a wonder or start a corp with a GE then I understand. But I get a weird vibe that if you can settle a bunch of them, it somehow overshadows doing anything else with them.

Another huge bonus to rushing the G-lib is you essentially get 20-30 "free" turns of 2-scientist GPP growth. Since instead of spending turns building the wonder you spend those turns reaping it's rewards. Doing all this talking about the benefits of rushing the GLib is really getting me excited to do it more often.

But I get a weird vibe that if you can settle a bunch of them, it somehow overshadows doing anything else with them.
+3:hammers: per turn in a bureaucracy capital is peanuts (becomes 4.5). Settling 3 and 1 prophet +11:hammers: per turn is worth it (becomes 16.5) and only balloons further with other production bonuses forge/factory/power:
1 settled GE (7.5), 3 settled GE 1 settled GP (27.5).

So if I'm looking at a 1 GE/GP-per-game situation, I'd rather rush a wonder or save for Mining Inc. See?

Well first I would like to narrow this debate down a little. I don't know why there is a GP involved. This isn't about a GP and he has nothing to do with GE or the value of GEs.

Of course I totally understand what you are saying, more settled dudes = more total hammers from settled dudes. That's understandable. What I am saying is the value of a settled GE does not get any higher by stacking settled GEs. So if you think using 1 GE to bulb or rush a wonder if it's going to be your only one, then why doesn't it make sense to use your first GE to bulb or rush even if you will get many more?

You are treating it as some kind of threshold saying "If I can get +20 :hammers: with settled specialists than I will settle them all. Otherwise I will use them for other things." and that isn't logical. It would be logical if multiple settled GEs had some kind of multiplier while working together.

By the way while we are kind of at it. What does this game do with 4.5 hammers? How does it round these? Or doesn't it round them at all?

You are treating it as some kind of threshold saying "If I can get +20 with settled specialists than I will settle them all. Otherwise I will use them for other things." and that isn't logical. It would be logical if multiple settled GEs had some kind of multiplier while working together.
No, I'm saying that a single settled GE is only worth 3 hammers and that's pathetic. Nothing more.

You are way over analyzing this.

I used a GP in there b/c this whole side discussion spawned off of the OP mentioning settling hammer based great people and included Prophet in his post somehwere on page 2. Also, you're not likely to get too many GE early in a given game unless PHI and completely focused on GE.

My only point is if I'm only getting 1 GE, I'd rather grab a free wonder that will boost my current game. If no wonder will boost my game, perhaps bulbing a tech will. If not, saving him for Mining inc is much more desirable. Using a rare GE (IE only 1 in a game) for 3 hammers is ridiculous IMO.

I agree with you, I think settling GEs is terrible at any point in the game.

But saying 1 settled GE is peanuts, but 3 settled GEs is something is like saying $1 is nothing but $3 is something. Although it's true that $3 is more than $1 the actual value of a dollar has not changed.

I guess you are saying if you are going to invest $1 (settle GEs) than you would rather invest $3 and spend the $1 on a pack of gum. I guess I can see that logic.

I am saying you should just buy 3 packs of gum.

I wouldn't settle ALL my GEs if getting multiple per game.

I'd save 1 for Mining Inc. ;)

But if I can settle 3 and get mining inc, I'll do that. Because settling 3 is more worth it because I'll be earning 21-22 hammers per turn (all regular multipliers in bureau capital) JUST from GEs.

If there's a REALLY good wonder available, I'll rush it (assuming I can't build it in a reasonable amount of time without the rush).

In the very early game, though, building Pyramids can get you a Great Engineer and settling that GE in a high quality cottaged capital makes an enormous difference in your game. Those extra hammers turn out to be huge in a Bureaucracy commerce city and you get nearly as many beakers from the GE as you do from a Great Scientist.

I find that I get roughly the same benefit from a settled Great Engineer in the next 30 turns as I would have from burning him on a quick wonder. You need to work a grassland hill and a grasslanf farm to get 3 hammers and not lose food in the deal - and you are now two citizens closer to your :mad: and :yuck: caps as well. The settled Great Engineer gives you those hammers for "free" and he gives you research as well.

I'm a fan. Obviously, if someone else discovered Literacy a while ago and I just built my 3rd Library, I'll be seriously tempted to rush the Great Library with him, but I'm not going to spend him on a wonder unless it's a really good one.
Archipleago Great Lighthouse, perhaps. :)

Mining Inc can provide 16+ hammers per turn to all your cities (assume 10) so 160 hammers per turn >>>>>>>>>>> 3 hammers 3 science per turn IMO ;)

One quick thought on rushing: if you're going to do it, look at how many hammers he'll contribute.

If you need 1200 hammers for the wonder and he'll contribute 900, don't spend him. If an AI completes the wonder, you'll kick yourself for centuries to come. Wait until you have almost 300 hammers and then spend the Great Engineer so that the wonder will be completed in the next turn.

Not only does this reduce the risk of spending a Great Engineer on a wonder that you're not going to end up getting, it also will probably get more out of the Great Engineer as well. This is because the GE gives you a set number of hammers, plus he gives you a number of hammers per population point in the city. If the city grows between now and when you spend the GE, you end up getting more hammers out of him.

Mining Inc can provide 16+ hammers per turn to all your cities (assume 10) so 160 hammers per turn >>>>>>>>>>> 3 hammers 3 science per turn IMO ;)

Mining Inc is certainly better than settling in the late game (unless you've decided on Creative Construction for some reason), but I was specifically talking about the early game. When your capital is producing 7 hammers per turn, an extra 3 is a very big deal. When your capital is producing 60 hammers per turn (before multipliers), that extra 3 doesn't seem so significant.

Late game Great Anythings should be saved for Golden Ages or Corporations as far as I'm concerned.

When your capital is producing 7 hammers per turn, an extra 3 is a very big deal.
By the time 'Mids would produce a GE, I'm pulling more like 12-15 hammers per turn. I'd still rather rush a strategy-friendly wonder or bulb Machinery or similar tech.

Different strokes, right?

Settling a Great Engineer might yield you more wonders than rushing one. (Ever been beaten by 1 turn? Well maybe if you had just a few more hammers, eh?) And as blitz says, becomes way strong if you settle many, especially in a bureaucracy capital with Oxford (and maybe a few settled Great Scientists).

I usually never rush wonders with it, but I decide what do do with them when I get em.
Often there aren't any wonders to be rushed, and many times the Bulbing isn't that strong.
But I have bulbed with Great Engineers. I once got to Gunpowder really fast with an Engineer+Merchant bulb path. (Though in hindsight I would probably not have done the same thing now, but I was the Ottomans and I did get a lot out of my UU that game)

I also sometimes rush West Point in the Heroic Epic city.

I usually prefer getting Creative Constructions over Mining Inc. (Mining Inc can't be coupled with Aluminum Co. or Civilized Jewelers)
At least if it's the Money I am after, and if I think I can get the 3 other corps that I can get together with it. 4 Corps can be an insane amount of gold per turn. Though I recommend using a civ with either maintenance reducing UB or gold boosting UB.
Mining Inc is a nice choice too though. Especially if you are going for a military win.

Some games in the lage game, Great Engineers seem to be born like dime a dozen, and then I often use them for Golden Ages together with whatever Great Persons I can get.

Pick a victory condition.

Domination/Conquest: Settle or Bulb for production advantage
Cultural: Rush Wonder or Settle
Diplomatic/Space: Rush Taj, Golden Ages

Great Engineers are the "best" Great Person since the wonders that crank them out are extremely limited and the Forge is the primary pusher for GEs for a fat slice of the game. I've had a game where all of my produced GPs were GEs and the only non GEs were from Tech wins, but that was alot of hard work and praying that GEs spawned every time in the big wonder cities where Engineer only contributes about half of the GP points.

Domination/Conquest: Settle or Bulb for production advantage
Cultural: Rush Wonder or Settle
Diplomatic/Space: Rush Taj, Golden Ages
Disagree with a couple here.

Domination/Conquest: Settle, Bulb, rush SoZ, or found a corporation
Cultural: Settle, bulb (to stay ahead militarily), rush Sistine, or found a corporation
Diplo/Space: settle or found a corporation

I would argue that Sistine is a good rush candidate for any victory condition. The +5 culture for religious buildings/+2 culture for specialists shifts border culture wars majorly in your favor. That is amazingly helpful no matter what you are aiming at. I tend to try and get the GL without rushing, will rush it if I am afraid of losing it. I tend to whip/chop the GL. Sistine and Path are the major rush targets for me depending on what I am trying to do. Otherwise I tend to settle GEs.

Alright I just checked it out. The great Library is 350 hammers. An engineer can build it in 1 turn netting you 350 hammers.

A settled Engineer is +3 Hammers per turn. So all bonuses aside it will take a settled GE ~115 turns to even out the number of hammers of rushing this particular wonder. (I realize I am ignore the beakers he makes) Only after that 115 turns will he start contributing above and beyond being used to rush one wonder. So in this comparison you don't actually get a better return on him until much later in the game.

Of course there is a beaker benefit also but I am counting that for less, because rushing a wonder lets you "use" that wonder for 20-35 more turns sooner, as well as buy that city 20-35 more turns of production. So I am willing to call that a wash.

Also as stated before, 3 hammers is like an extra mined hill early in the game, and that is very valuable when you only actually have 4 mined hills. That is like a 25% increase in your total production. However late in the game when you have 40 mined hills, it's a drop in the bucket. Which further supports my points that investing a GE for the hammers. The later in the game it goes the less the hammers he contributes matter, even with bonuses. Getting a rush in the early game is way more important.

Now this is a matter of playstyle, but I feel that doing the right thing NOW is much better than investing in the future (in Civ4 terms). I feel that getting a wonder done sooner, reaping it's rewards longer, and having the city free to build military sooner is a much better investment than letting a settled GE generate 1000 :hammers: over 300 turns. Not all people think this way. I have a friend who gives all of his warriors city raider even if they are just scouting just in case they will be upgraded to macemen later. I would much rather give them woodsman or medic so they can do a better job scouting now.

Unless the 'Mids are still available (rare), I save him for Mining Inc. I play for domination on large hard maps, so I'm always warring in the late game. Mining Inc becomes the single largest factor in my empire's military output.

By the time 'Mids would produce a GE, I'm pulling more like 12-15 hammers per turn.

A lot of that depends on the city too.

If you have a city with few hills, you might very well have pushed out the Pyramids with your second/third city and have a commerce madhouse in the Capital. This isn't always the case for me, but I've certainly had Capitals that weren't producing many hammers on their own, but were putting out a metric ton of commerce. In these cases, I think that settling the Great Engineer is a strong play simply because you're not going to have a whole lot of production in your Capital otherwise and you really want those multipliers built in the Capital even if they aren't going up anywhere else.

Alright I just checked it out. The great Library is 350 hammers. An engineer can build it in 1 turn netting you 350 hammers.

Remember that if you have Marble, that's +100% :hammers: towards the Great Library, and in that case the GE would be worth a lot less in terms of :hammers:. Of course that doesn't mean you would want to lose the GLib to someone else (I'm a fan myself)...

I use them to rush-build wonders 90% of the time. I save them for GAs the other 10%. I haven't settled or bulbed one in ages. Their settle bonus is not worth it to me and I can usually tech fast enough that their bulb only saves me 1 turn of research.

I save them for GAs the other 10%
I can usually tech fast enough that their bulb only saves me 1 turn of research.
I can't believe you use GEs for golden ages! What a waste :sad:

If you are teching things like Machinery in 1 turn, you are:
a) playing quick speed (rare on these forums)
and / or
b) playing way below your difficulty level

Why not save for Mining Inc? Settling 1 GE is way better than burning one on a golden age IMO.

A lot of that depends on the city too.

If you have a city with few hills, you might very well have pushed out the Pyramids with your second/third city and have a commerce madhouse in the Capital. This isn't always the case for me, but I've certainly had Capitals that weren't producing many hammers on their own, but were putting out a metric ton of commerce. In these cases, I think that settling the Great Engineer is a strong play simply because you're not going to have a whole lot of production in your Capital otherwise and you really want those multipliers built in the Capital even if they aren't going up anywhere else.

That I can definitely agree with. However, I usually regenerate a game that doesn't have at least a few hills in the capital BFC. I can't have my bureau capital taking 30 turns to build a university!

I just thought that I'd add....

GEs Bring Good Things to Life

it's 3 hammers + 6 beakers, which is still the best you can get.

How is it the best you can get?

Without rep an eng gives 3 hammers + 3 beakers total 6
a scientist gives 6 beackers plus 1 hammer total 7
a merchant fives 1 food + 6 gold total 7

So how is the eng the best?

How is it the best you can get?

Without rep an eng gives 3 hammers + 3 beakers total 6
a scientist gives 6 beackers plus 1 hammer total 7
a merchant fives 1 food + 6 gold total 7

So how is the eng the best?
1 hammer is worth more than 1 beaker

The best use of a great engineer is the one that will best help you with your victory condition. All the the uses of any great person are powerful when used properly, some are just more niche than others.

GE is definitely the best rounded settled specialist.

GE is definitely the best rounded settled specialist.
???
Great Prophet 2:hammers: (only 1 less than GE), 5:gold: (only 1 less than GM), and 3:science: if in rep...
I would think that's the most versatile settled gp

Every settled GP under rep gives 3 beakers, this is immaterial in the discussion. The difference between 2 and 0 is 2. The difference between 50,000 and 49,998 is 2. Adding more numbers does not change the base comparison. Why are we leaving out the 2 culture with Sisteen btw =P

Anyway I will take 3 beakers over 5 gold anyday in a general situation. There are soooooo many ways to get gold in this game. There is a reason why the gold giving specialists give more gold than the hammer giving specialists give hammers. I can't trade away my extra sugar for 20 hammers per turn. Same holds true for research in trade, however it can be more directly compared to gold via the commerce slider.

Every settled GP under rep gives 3 beakers, this is immaterial in the discussion. The difference between 2 and 0 is 2. The difference between 50,000 and 49,998 is 2. Adding more numbers does not change the base comparison. Why are we leaving out the 2 culture with Sisteen btw =P
This isn't the same. Because Eng in rep gives 3:hammers: 6:science:. BUT, a prophet in rep gives hammers, science, AND gold. Settled in a bureau capital is awesome. That's why I chose to compare in Rep. The engineer is a very solid GP and even stronger in Rep, but when it comes to VERSATILITY (when settled) which is what we were talking about, the prophet is better.

Non-rep prophets settled in wall street city > GE settled in bureaucracy IMO. Especially since you can usually spam prophets to your hearts content and faster. So I can settle 3 GP in Wall Street city in the same time most games can pop 1 GE. I guess I just like prophets more for settled versatility. But GEs are just plain stronger in most non-settled cases.

I can't believe you use GEs for golden ages! What a waste :sad:

Maybe he's counting clearly won games. I have one now where I'll be capturing at least a few more cities for domination. I planned to use 3 GPeople for my 4th Golden Age of the game (I'm Philosophical, and built the Taj) and was surprised to pop a GE while saving the GPeople. I thought about using him to build the Ironworks, but I have huge production already with drafting, whipping, and a few cities with lots of :hammers:. If it's not too tedious I'll try totaling up my :hammers: before and after triggering the Golden Age. I bet it will compete well with, if not exceed, what I could get with the Ironworks. And the :commerce: will be ri-gosh-darn-diculous. :)

That's a pretty niche circumstance, though. I was responding to a post that said 90% of the time he uses it for rushing wonders, the other 10% is for golden ages. Bleh! In your situation, it might make sense given the status of the game and it sounds like you're in the mid to late game. But most times, using a GE for a golden age is such a waste :sad: again

Blitz I still don't follow your line of thinking. Additionally why is settling a gold producing GP in a bueruacracy capital "awesome"? Settling a GP in Wallstreet is great, just as settling a GE in Oxford is great, just as settling either in IW is great. The direct comparison is -

GE 3H 3B
GP 2H 5G

GE net gain - 1H 3B
GP net gain - 5g

I will take the engineer. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Edit - I also use GE's, especially late game, for Golden Ages quite frequently. When I want a Golden Age I do not really care what type of GP I burn.

In the late game Golden Ages make more sense (more tiles improved, more civics to change to) and then you can really pump out Great Engineers, what with all those factories and stuff. And when there is nothing left worth rushing, and you or someone got the corporations, and settling this late isn't really worth it. What else are you going to do?

Late enough I might even bulb a turn or so on Future tech but that's irrelevant :P

In your situation, it might make sense given the status of the game and it sounds like you're in the mid to late game
I totally agree that using one in the later game for a golden age makes sense.

Blitz I still don't follow your line of thinking. Additionally why is settling a gold producing GP in a bueruacracy capital "awesome"? Settling a GP in Wallstreet is great, just as settling a GE in Oxford is great, just as settling either in IW is great.
It's a matter of being able to get many more GrProph in the early game when gold and hammers are more rare to come by. Again, it is likely that you can produce 2-3 prophets in the same time that it would take (in an average game) to produce a GE with a forge engineer. Since my bureau capital will generally get a market and a bank, settling 2-3 prophets there turns into 17-26:gold: per turn possibly allowing a slider bump. And then, add in the 50% boost to hammers in bureau capital making 4-6:hammers: become 6-9:hammers: per turn. No loss to rounding either. Settled engineer 3:hammers: becomes 4:hammers: due to rounding (iirc). 3 :science: is nice, but not very versatile. With :gold: you can use slider for EP/culture/or science.

Whereas that 1 settled GE will generate 4.5 (rounded down to 4) :hammers: and 6:science: per turn (if in oxford/academy) which only can be used for science. Powerful, but not versatile.

Mostly, though, it's due to the fact that you can generate lots of GrProph with a little effort. But you must wait until factories to gain access to multiple Eng specialists.

Also, understand that I'm not playing immortal/deity

For rounding you have to round all the tiles with the specialists so maybe an odd number evens it out, maybe it doesn't. Getting very very hypothetical there.

Where do you get all these Great Propehts? Why would you get that many early game? The massive 1 Great Prophet point from the early wonders? Running priests instead of scientists AND building temples prior to libraries? To reverse the question on myself with engineers, I will often run 1 engineer off of a forge in my GP farm and see if I get lucky. Sometimes I get very lucky. Granted if I want a more sure GS then I do not do this.

Granted immortal+ the AI has more gold to help you out, but even at lower levels I just do not personally put that much stock in gold via GP. GM are much stronger for gold not due to the 1gpt extra, but their extra food is potentially another half merchant specialist, netting more gold and more gpp. I still stick with the notion that beakers and hammers are the two most important outputs in the vast majority of games.

Where do you get all these Great Propehts? Why would you get that many early game? The massive 1 Great Prophet point from the early wonders? Running priests instead of scientists AND building temples prior to libraries?
Dood, if ur going for GE for a strat, I'm going for a GP for a strat both instead of GS. That simple. Holy City (captured usually) + 1 temple = 4 priests. Not that rare or difficult. May not get the holy city with shrine until early ADs, but ur not getting a second engineer until Assembly Line.

Gold via GP early on is usually more than gold via trades (on a per turn basis). Besides, it's not just gold, it's the combination of hammers in bureau capital and gold.

Again, I though we're supposed to be discussing versatility, not raw power.

Ahem - To reverse the question on myself with engineers, I will often run 1 engineer off of a forge in my GP farm and see if I get lucky. Sometimes I get very lucky. Granted if I want a more sure GS then I do not do this. Hardly claim my first 3 great people, should or are, GE's.

I said well rounded. To me that means giving the most useful stats. I do not see gold as useful. I think we've exhausted this dicussion quite well by now however.

I think we've exhausted this dicussion quite well by now however.
I'll agree to that. We both value gold differently, then.

:beer:
;)

I said well rounded. To me that means giving the most useful stats. I do not see gold as useful. I think we've exhausted this dicussion quite well by now however.

I think gold is more useful in the early game than you think. Pre-currency, the only [1] way to produce gold (which is required to support cities and units) is by turning down the science slider. This is effectively a 1:1 conversion of raw beakers into gold. So that early settled GP is effectively producing 5 beakers per turn (plus the two hammers), because he's allowing you to run the science slider at 100% for longer.

Post-currency is a different story, of course, because there are a lot more ways to generate gold.

[1] Edit: I should have said the most common way, not the only way. Pre-currency you could run priests or if you have COL switch to caste system and run merchants or artists.

Can't... get... away... from.... thread.... :mischief:

Early prophets can fuel expansion, however nowadays 99.9% of the time my first great person is a scientist for an academy in the capital. I'd rather fund expansion with luxuries or cottages than use one of the ever so valuable early/quick great people on a few gpt.

Can't... get... away... from.... thread....

LoL. Poor Lanksy. For what it's worth, I'd rather get a GE ;)

I think gold is more useful in the early game than you think. Pre-currency, the only [1] way to produce gold (which is required to support cities and units) is by turning down the science slider.

Or by failing to build wonders. Or even overflow tricks, but less so now that that's patched.

Settling merchants is my favorite. Although once again it's probably the least useful way to use them. I just really like the +1 :food:

Settling merchants is my favorite. Although once again it's probably the least useful way to use them. I just really like the +1 :food:


"Do you like - bread?" - Eddie Izzard

Merchant Settle is the R0x0r5 for a tundra commerce city. You can actually push enough pop to run your snowtrapped gold mines AND additional merchants to capitalize on your city's commerce improvements.

If you need 1200 hammers for the wonder and he'll contribute 900, don't spend him. If an AI completes the wonder, you'll kick yourself for centuries to come. Wait until you have almost 300 hammers and then spend the Great Engineer so that the wonder will be completed in the next turn.

I'm not above reloading when something like that happens! :lol:

(but I know a lot of people play no cheap reloads to save themselves from their own stupidity.)

an early wonder can lead to great engineers that can't build any wonders later if you are being out teched and during this time the minor wonders tend to be a short build.

this brings about the join, golden age, build building

Bank is the superior in a new build city

this brings about the join, golden age, build building

Bank is the superior
??? Aren't the national wonders the same cost or maybe a little more than a bank?

Why not found a corp?

fractal, emperor, standard, random

under the conditions that you are being out teched building a corporation or holding out for one
could be a long wait-

the time frame i am referring to is the quick tech to Banking (or getting it in trade) and then all the other techs are further off

a new city could build a national wonder but most are pop enhance kinda wonders so in a new city you would have to wait for a courthouse or a library to build the next (forbidden palace or university) whereas Bank- expensive - get it now.

again another option under this circumstance is golden age #2 or 3 with it

A prophet popping Divine Right afor others is worth 2.7 Engineers

Tempo over all

;) love the advice. Thnx Troy

I have been thinking about this thread (still) and I think it's pretty easy to figure out. Most of the grunt work has already been done. We just need to find a conversion for :hammers: :gold: :beakers:. And agree on an assumption on how many turns "settling" should account for.

Then we need to pick an approximate time frame. Say, the late BCs.

Bulb machinery = x :Beakers:
Rush G-Lib = 600 :Hammers:
Settle = +3 :Hammers: + 3 :Beakers: x 300 turns

And then you can see which one is actually most effective as far as resource vs resource.

It's not that simple since the effectiveness of each action can only be really judged on the merit it has in the current situation of any given game. I think all the advice given thus far is good advice given one situation or another.

Virtual Alex- for the case of the GLib, for example, that fails to take into account the additional beakers from the GLib scientists for the extra turns you get them for finishing it sooner, the extra GPP, and the hard to quantify bonus of guaranteeing that you are not beaten to the wonder. It's trickier than just counting hammers.

Yes of course I am one of the biggest advocates of the 2-free scientist bonus for the 20 turns you already have the GLib instead of building it. I am also disregarding all the hammer/beaker bonuses the settled GE will gain. As well as the trade value of the bulbed tech.

This is also all 100% map and situation dependent. So yeah, it's far from simple. however getting some hard numbers down just so we know what we are dealing with would be good.

I read in a thread sometime (years ago) some well-thought-out conversion rates of food to hammer to beaker to gold and if anyone know where that thread is it might help us break this subject down.

1. Rush a wonder of importance
2. Mining Inc.
3. Bulb a good tech.
4. Settle.

-Mining is a pretty powerful corp, so I'll usually save them if I anticipate a need for a late game bump in production.
-their tech bulbs are more likely to be military techs so to me they offer the best bang for your buck there
-they have the best settled stats to be sure, but their other uses and their relative availability means I usually don't settle them.