------- THIS THREAD IS NOW OUTDATED, PLEASE POST ON MY THREAD IN THE SCENARIO FORUM HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=340767)------

After reading up on some alternate history scenairio ideas down at the RFC modmod forum (Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=332256)), I decided to finally make a scenario for GEM 6.2.1. To start with it will work just like a normal GEM Scenario with the preset civs just with different Names/ Colours/ Leader Names, but i would hope to eventually mod some features to compensate for the sheer ahistorical world created. (Gunpowder Roman Legions anyone?)

I will rely on outside help hopefully from the community that were discussing the scenario as to how the world will have changed, but a brief history is in the spoiler below.


The Start Date is 1400 AD, but the world has changed greatly.

Some Notes

- As this is not RFC, we can use alot more civilisations easily without also risking gameplay speed. This means multiple Native american civs.

- GEM is BIG, big enough for alot more detail and a slower gamespeed, further adding to how complex we can go with the alternate history. However, this mean more civs, more cities and more units, so it will be restricted to faster computers.

- RevDCM, there still will be revolts, civil wars and collapsing civilisations! i personally prefer Revolutions to RFC as it it much harder to take advantage of. RevDCM also comes with BUG, Influence driven War, minor civilisations, Tech Diffusion, Dynamic Civ names and alot more goodies.

- We will need alot of Minor Civs to represent Independants and not just one as that one will be too unstable with revolutions.

Current Task: Playtesting and Balancing
Now the map is complete i will create a page on the Scenario forum with the file and hopefully get some feedback

Then: Playtesting and Balancing
Possibly convert scenario to RoM

Back-Story

- 434 AD
Attila the Hun dies at childbirth, to the tribe it is just another unlucky soul, they would never know how much one person could change the world.

- 434-476
With No Hunnic Migrations into Germania, the Germanic Tribes were not forced into conquering Rome, and thus the Western Roman Empire survived.

- 512
After a few decades, A new Philosophical Emperor came to throne. All it took was one charismatic and selfless leader to bring the WRE back on its feet, but he realised at his death it would deteriorate under other incompetent and greedy emperors, so he abolished the empire, gave more independence to further away provinces and set up a democratic government that improved on the original senate.

- 600-650
The Eastern Roman Empire, with safe borders in the north, was able to keep its army east, hold on to its outer territories and even quell the uprising of Muhammad’s Conquest and the Religion that came with it. With solid borders to the east they started to expand into eastern Arabia and Further South through Egypt. The Western Roman Republic and the Eastern Roman Empire are by no means friends, but they both understand the chaos that would erupt if peace could not be maintained.

- 600-1000
Without a Strong enough leader to lead the Huns westward, they begin to slow expand their empire into the less populous lands to the east. Eventually their borders stretch from modern day Ukraine to the Caspian Sea.

- 1206-1380
The Mongol Horde rises at the hand of Genghis Khan, and he storms his way through the Jin Dynasty (Northern China) and westward upon the Middle East and Eastern Europe. But alas, the world has changed; the Huns have grown their empire and defended their borders well, blocking Genghis Hordes from Europe. And in the Middle East the Arabian Caliphates never came and collapsed, and so a strong Persia blocks it from its historic boundaries. Nevertheless, The Mongols fight on and slowly progress through Iran and Russia, eventually reaching the Caspian and taking the city of Baghdad, where they meet an even stronger enemy, the Eastern Roman Empire.

- 1380-1396
The Long and brutal conquest of Russia and The Middle east drained the Mongol resources, and at the time of Genghis Death the Mongol Empire collapsed into The Timurids, Golden Horde Khanate, Chagatai Khanate and Oirats Khanate along with many other minor khanates.

- 600-1400
As the Byzantines Conquered Egypt and Arabia, the people of the Western Roman Republic lost faith in their rulers. Western Rome had not expanded its borders since Hadrian and The WRR looks weak compared to the ERE, because of this Rome decided to start expanding where it knew there were only weak tribes, south along the African Coast. However, after conquering a few tribes they reached Marrakesh, where their legions were ambushed by an army of moors. A war broke out between Rome and the Moors, and they seemed equal until the Vikings started raiding Britannia and Gaul. Rome had to pull some of their men back from Africa to defend their Richer Provinces, but the moors caught on and as soon as enough of the Romans had been shipped back to Gaul the moors rampaged into modern Morocco and kept storming through roman land all the way to modern Algiers, where they changed their path and used roman boats to sail across to Iberia, where they managed to take the southern half of Iberia within years. The Western Roman Republic and The Moorish Kingdoms have been at war since, and the moors have shown no signs of weakness.


Civilisations - Should Be Final Now
Civ Desc, Short Desc, Adjective (Placeholder)
1. The Romans, Rome, Roman (Rome)
2. The Byzantines, Byzantium, Byzantine (Byzantine)
3. The Moors, Moorland, Moorish (Carthage)
4. The Vikings, Norway, Viking (Norse)
5. The Franks, Frankia, Frankish(France)
6. The Vandals, Vandalia, Vandal (Celts)
7. The Visigoths, West Gothia, Visigoth (Germany)
8. The Ostrogoths, East Gothia, Ostrogoth (Poland)
9. The Saxons, Saxonia, Saxon (Germany)
10. The Swedes, Sweedland, Sweedish (Sweedish)
11. The Finns, Finnland, Finnish (Finnish)
12. Kievan Russia, Russia, Kievan (Russia)
13. The Huns, Hunnia, Hunnic (Russia)
14. The Songhay, West Africa, Songhay (Mali)
15. Bantu Peoples, Central Africa, Bantu (Mali)
16. Khoisan Peoples, South Africa, Khoisan (South Africa)
17. Shwalli Peoples, Zululand, Shwalli (Zulu)
18. Luo Peoples, East Africa, Luo (Zulu)
19. Ethiopia, Ethiopia, Ethiopian (Ethiopia)
20. The Arabs, Arabia, Arabian (Arabia)
21. The Timurid Dynasty, Persia, Timurid (Persia)
22. The Golden Horde, Golden Horde Mongolia, Golden Horde (Mongolia)
23. Chagatai Khanate, Chagatai Mongolia, Chagatai (Turks)
24. Tibetan Peoples, Tibet, Tibetan (China)
25. The Gupta, India, Guptan (India)
26. Vakataka, South-India, Vakataka (India)
27. The Ava, Ava, Avanese (Thailand)
28. Siam, Siam, Siamese (Khmer)
29. The Champa, Champa, Champanese (Thailand)
30. The Song Dynasty, Song China, Song (China)
31. The Yuan Dynasty, Yuan China, Yuan (China)
32. The Oirat Khanate, Oirat Mongolia, Oirat (Mongolia)
33. Japan, Japan, Japanese (Japan)
34. Malasian Peoples, Malasia, Malasian (Polynesian)
35. Papuan Peoples, Papua, Papuan (Polynesian)
36. The Aztecs, Texcoco, Aztec (Aztec)
37. The Incans, Inca, Incan (Inca)
38. Columbian Peoples, Colombia, Columbian (Columbia)
39. Pacific-Anowarkowan Peoples, West Anowarkowa, Pacific-Anowarkowan (Native America)
40. Plains-Indian Peoples, Plains-Indians, Plains-Anowarkowan (Native America)
41. Iroquois Confederacy, Five Nations, Iroquois (Native America)
42. Atlantic-Anowarkowan Peoples, East Anowarkowa, East Anowarkowan (Native America)
43. Pacific-Texcocoan Peoples, West Texcoco, West Texcocoan (Maya)
44. Atlantic-Texcocoan Peoples, East Texcoco, East Texcocoan (Maya)


Alot of Credit goes to Rallas who visualised and Described a Realistic Alternate History Scenario that i could turn into a Scenario. Thanks also to Lean and Zaragoth who offered their advice on the scenario and History. Thanks alot (and im sorry for this) to Wikipedia for helping me choose city Names and civ borders. Thanks again to Genghis Khan for the Wonderfull GEM and the 1500 map which i used as a base for the non-Atilla-affected world.

A good starting date would either be around the late 1400's or around the 1700's. If starting in the 15th century this allows for Rome and China to choose where the will settle their American colonies. If starting in the 18th century it allows for 2 Americas, one of Chinese origin and the other of Roman.

Concerning the Byzantines' to those outside of the Empire itself it was alternated in name by either the Byzantine Empire(named after the original name of Constantinople) or the Eastern Roman Empire.

I don't think there should be an Arabian civilization as with the Byzantine Empire not weakened by having to send troops over to conquer the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, etc. this allows for more of their army to be in the Middle Eastern area ready to put down any uprising by the Arabs.

Adding in two Americas'(one created by China the other by Rome.) is also a good idea. If we do the 1700s as a starting point then the two should be selectable civs if we do the 1400s then they should be the first civ to form when a revolt happens in that civ.(if we can even make it so that the American civ forms only if the revolt happens in America that would be even better.)'

I'll try to put a map of how Europe will look in a bit.

Personally i would rather go for a 1400's Start as i always get disorientated when i jump into a scenario in the industrial era as it puts me off. if we go 1500 there is an excellent 1500 scenario for GEM already and we can use that to help us with civs that wouldnt have been changed.

I was thinking even earlier when i wrote the civs, but we need to know the backstory before knowing exactly what civs. For example depending on whether the East has an alternate history too will affect Many civs as if it is unnaffected the mongols would still be at very large in 1400, and thus therefore would be better to start the mod at or a few years after the collapse of the mongol empire.

Would you rather go for just a change for europe or would an alternate event in the east too be better?

Looking for some Roman-Style Medieval and Rennaissance units. Just to add to the feel of the game.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7308
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7309
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7237
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7236

Those unitss fit the style of the Romans as if they were to have furthered their technology later on.

Concerning the East i would say that it would be effected by the change in the fall of Rome not occuring.

Parthia if it exists should be really only around due to necessity as they do not want the Byzantines to further expand their influence into Mesopotamia. Without Attila to lead the Huns into invading into the West this causes the Germanic and Saxon tribes to not be forced into Roman lands. This means that the Huns will be located in Central Asia.(They can be used as a civ to block the Kievan Russia from expanding completely Eastward.).

The Saxon and Germania tribes would thus be living in Germany(Most likely fighting over land.) A situation i usually conclude in would be that Rome would be able to conquer some of Southern Germany as the Germanic tribes are beset with enemies from all sides.(Saxons in the north, Romans to the South, and either Kievan or Byzantine from the East.)

The Celts could be portray a Celtic Ireland or Scotland as Rome would not be likely to advance in that direction unless the Germanic tribes were pushed away. The Celts would allow for an opposition to replace the Saxons on the British Isles.

The Moors would exsist in this future just remain in North Africa due to the spread of Islam never spreading that far(Arabia would not be able to spread Islam with the Byzantine Empire blocking them.) making a more diverse Africa.(Which is good cause in most scenarios Africa only has normally Ethiopia, Egypt, and Mali.)

What helped us with World 2009 was drawing it out on maps, i had a go on a Europe one here.227294227295

We need to choose what alternate event happened for the east (if one) then work out a timeling of events, then set the date of the scen where most appropriate. For the scenario we want a period where colonisation is a near or already began, so that the Aztecs don't own all of NA when we get there. We also need a period where there is balance, so mongolia at its height won't be great, even though i have used that on the map i made.

Here is a rough timeline i have gathered from the thread.
- Attilla the Hun dies at childbirth, to the world it is just another unlucky soul, they would never know how much one child could change the world.
-With No Hunnic Migrations into Germania, the Germanic Tribes were not forced into conquering Rome, and thus the Western Roman Empire survived.
- After a few decades, A new Philosphicical Emporer came to throne. All it took was one charismatic and selfless leader to bring the WRE back on its feet, but he realised at his death it would detiriote under other incompitent and greedy emporers, so he abolished the empire, gave more independence to further away provinces and set up a democratic government that improved on the origonal senate. (how much more like modern day government would this be?) (is the WRR Catholic?, Othordox? or Roman Paganism?)
-The Eastern Roman Empire, with safe borders in the north, was able to keep its army east, hold on to its outer territories and even quell the uprising of Muhammed's Conquest and the Religion that came with it. With solid borders to the east they started to expand into eastern Arabia and Further South through Egypt. The Western Roman Republic and the Eastern Roman Empire are by no means friends, but they both understand the choas that would erupt if peace could not be maintained.

I need to know before i carry on
- Without Attilla would there even be a hunnic empire? and if there would be what effect would it have on the mongols?

- Throughout this all was India ever a unified state? and would the lack of Arabian Conquest/ Islam/ or Possible less likely success of mongols affect India?

-Should we have an alternate event in Japan? someone mentioned that if japan won a few battles they could have conquered southern china, therefore weakening china, causing an eariler mongol uprising, but not as great without genghis, therefore prevennting mongols from taking china or Russia, but successfull in taking persia. I think we should have this if a Hunnic Empire could indirectly affect the east, but if we have to squeze possibibilities for that to happen i would like to go with this alternate eastern world.

- Would Japan or China have ever colonised the americas? what about the Roman Republic?

- How Advanced would All these factions be? Were the mongols less advanced than say Japan, Persia or China? Would Rome have made many more discoveries without the dark ages? or would they have continued to have a lack of technological advances?

- How different would Africa be without Islam? Would the WRE and ERE be looking to expand their borders into more of Africa?

- Would the Vikings still have existed? Would they have taken more land?

- Who were the Kievan Russia?

1. Without Attila there would be a Hunnic empire it would just not be forced into invading westward forcing the other Germanic tribes to invade Rome. That means that the Huns would most likely remain where they started in Central Asia.

2. India may possibly remain unified due to seeing that Rome never fell apart. The Gupta Empire was starting in the real world to lose it's influence(it would fully collapse in 550AD) perhaps with two stable Roman govs. it could model itself off of one of them and form a fully working gov.

3. Without an Arabia it means no Decca or Delhi Sultanate that means the Indians would be ruling themselves unless Parthia, or Eastern Rome, or even Western Rome tried to expand further influence on India with more then just trading posts.

4. Japan would still develop into a Feudal design of a state.(Being the only place in the world where feudalism is promineant.) the capital should be either Nara or Kyoto(Both were promineant capitals of Japan during 700-800s. With Kyoto being the capital after that.)

5. With or without Japan the mongol invasion would have occured at the time Gehngis was around unless there was another mongol leader to unify or there was a severe reason for them to invade.(China was falling apart and could easily be conquered by Mongol forces.)

6. China would have founded the West Coast probably a few years after the Spanish discovered the Americas. Japan it all depends on it's foriegn policy and if it wanted to be China that bad at something. Rome would definently find America just later then China does.

7. Rome would probably be the most advanced in the West with the Byzantine's in a close second. The Germanic tribes should be around 1 tech age lower.(Middle Age Rome = Classical Germanic.) China and Japan should be most advanced in the east with competitions between Rome and China for the most advanced nation.

8. Without Islam Rome and Byzantine would be able to conquer further and further into Africa since most of them would now follow Christianity. The competition now in Africa would probably be whether they are Orthodox or Roman Catholic.

9. The Vikings would exsist but would probably take up the Scandinavian lands with a few raids on the Germanic tribes in Germany(and possibly the Roman territories on the northern borders.)

10. Kievan Russia(better known as Kievan Rus') were a nation founded in the 9th century ruled by Scandinavian traders called the Rus'(They are the ancestors of the Russians.). They founded a nation in the capital city of Kiev which lasted until the Mongol invasion of Russia. The Mongols would now have a tougher time reaching them now because of the Huns remaining in Central Asia which allows for Kiev to last beyond its original ending date.

I have updated the civilisation list above, still needs a bit more work. We will need more Native Americans and we don’t need Muscovy or Novgorod. Here is a world map with Civilisation borders. Feel free to give comments or have a go changing it. I will add a version without Civilisation names to make it easier to change. 227317

I was having a look at the 200BC and 1500AD GEM scenarios. I think I will just edit this map, changing city names and placements in the west and then changing some Civilisations to make it earlier and to our alternate world. Most of Africa, China, and America will be the same.

Just a request from me what are the nations(excluding the Aztec and Inca) that are located in the Americas? just so I can understand what's what over there. Otherwise well done works well.

I'm juggling a couple of things, but I'll be happy to help if needed. Alternate History is a favroit of mine, so I can come up with ideas, ect. if needed.

@Rallas. Not sure yet. I was thinking Aztec, Maya, Inca, Iroqois, Cherooke, Apache, Sioux, North American Tribes (Minor), South American Tribes (Minor), and Amazonian Tribes (Minor). However i need to cut down on the civ list in the top post (in the spoiler) as i want to limit it to about 40 civs so there are room for revolutions, which i hope we can find a way to link to specific civs.

@Lean. Awesome, i am no expert on history so i need you guys to help with keeping this scen realistic.

Just keep debating the Civs, Borders, Relgions, Civics and Armies as you guys were in the other thread and i will try my best to realize them into a Playable, Balanced and hopefully Fun scenario.

We still need to decide on the civs and their borders. but two that we are set on are the WRR and the ERE. so i have made a tile map in excell where each tile represents an exact map tile so that we can put the cities into their Right locations and put their borders down which i will be able to replicate by changing the cities cultures.

Been doing some research. South-East asia is almost directly copied off a 1400 World Map, Africa only has a few civs but there will be barian cities within their colour on the map that will break them up a bit. The Americas the look starnge but all but the Iroqous, Aztec and Inca will be minors and there wont be many cities in their borders. this is the same with the Africans, Mongolians, Swedes, Finns and the Tibetans.

I will recompose the civ list to fit this map and then start on the Scenario. But there are some things i need you to help with.
1. India? How did Islam Historically affect india? and from there how would india have changed without the loss of the silk road? would they be more romanised? would they be split up or under one leader?
2. Fill in Borders and Cities on the Europe Tilemap below
3. Comment on my civ borders and History, i need to know if my backstory makes sence. and if possible add to it or completely rewrite it. this backstory will pop-up at the start of the scenario so make it interesting.

227401

Book1 is a blank Tilemap of Europe. Book2 is the same but with some civs filled in and the Capitols of WRR and ERE put in (Key to the right). Please have a go at City placement and civ placement and for each city put a Number on and then have a key for the citynames. the 200BC and 1500BC scenario's that come with GEM will help with city ideas but if you feel some should be different then add it.

Remember i am constantly updating my first post, so check back to it for more back-story and maps

Islam came to India through trade and commerce. It came to be the religion in charge when India was conquered. Without Islam the only difference would be that India would be conquered by non-muslim Mughals' as the Timurids would(at least right now.) still exsist in this alternate world.

Due to the Mongols still invading the land silk road will thus be disrupted and eventually lose it's importance in the trade of silk. The only way the Silk Road could remain is if the Byzantine's can keep control of their part of the road and make extensive use of it.

However, since there would be no middle man stopping Rome(both Byzantine and Roman) from reaching India and China the Sea routes would still be greatly in use.(This even leads to a reason for why Rome would not need to explore west to the new world until China finds it's first colony.)

Northern India would not be as effected by Rome still exsisting however, Southern India would. I feel that 1 or 2 cities located on the southern tip of India should be either Roman or Byzantine. Trade occured heavily between Rome and Southern India culture and the stregnth of Rome could lead to the eventual takeover of a city or two.(Which can make the southern Indian nation at more tense relations with Rome or Byzantine.)

Concerning a earlier question about WRR it should most definently be Roman Catholic with the Byzantines being Orthodox. This allows for more distaste for the other.

This should be the final Civ list and civ placements unless you have any objections.
227501

Now i need to work on city placement. For most the world i will be using the same city placement, names and possibly sizes but for europe I will need your help so please use the GEMEurope Tilemap to place where you think cities should go and what there names should be.

For india i have split it into two civs. the gupta and the vakataka. These were both around in 475BC but historically were long gone by 1400. However with the roman empire surviving and with the Byzantines keeping their red sea access trade continued between India and Both romes. this will make India a fairly playable civ which is good for gameplay. I have given some of South India to Both Romans and i will start them both at war with the vakataka but will keep Gupta friendly.

Should the Gupta and Timurids be at war or peace?
Should ERE and Timurids be at war or peace?
Should Kievan Rus and Golden Horde be at war or peace?
Should WRR and Vikings be at war or peace?
Should WRR and Moors be at war or peace?
Should ERE or WRR be at war or peace with any of the North European Civs?
Please State anyone else that will be at war.

Would anyone be anyone elses Vassal?
Should we allow vassalage?
Should we allow city razing?
Should we allow barbarians?
Which Victories should be on?
please state any other options that are needed.

I have started work on the Scenario, i will be posting screenies as i go. However if i dont get your city ideas for europe then i will have to just use 200BC Scen cities for rome and india and 1500AD Scen cities for the rest.

Gupta and the Timurids should definently be at war. Since the Mughal Empire would form around the 1500's the Timruids should technically at this time be preparing to destroy the Gupta Empire.

Concerning the Timurids and ERE it's a bit more complicated but judging by the territory we gave the Byzantines i would say yes the two would be at war as the Timurids wanted control of Mesopotamia.

Kievan Rus and Golden Horde should be at war since historically the two went to war.(with the Horde winning in the end but it's all up in the air now.)

The WRR should be at war with the Moors. As for the Vikings i can't really say.

both the WRR and ERE should be at war with any European civ that is located right north of their borders. In other words WRR is at war with the Franks, Vandals, and Visigoths and the ERE is at war with the Visigoths and Ostrogoths.
The Song Dynasty and Yuan Dynasty should be at war as they try to claim complete control over China.

Gupta Empire should also be at war with the Vakataka Empire.

Thats about all that i can think of for those at war.

Vasals should be allowed, as with barbarians, any victory, as for city razing i'd say an option for that as well. As for nations starting as vasals i don't think there should be any.

OK i finally done the Europe Tilemap with city names. it is a little rough as it is hard to mix different time eras and how i can pick up Medieval Hunnic Citynames is beyond me. Take a good look and suggest some changes. if you approve of this then the rest of the cities will be 1500 replica's except for south-west arabia (will be byzantine) and india.

Should there be a road from china to india?
should there be any war between india/siam/cambodia/malaysia/Papua/China/Japan?

227560

Once i have completed the scenario would you like me to mod some stuff to add different unique units / buildings for the new civs as now say the huns will have mongolia's UU and UB as there is no hun civ.

which placeholder civs should we have for: each of the northern european tribes? the huns? the gupta? (would a classical looking india be better?), the moors? tibet?

I like it only thing i'd change is mabye instead of having Corinthus it's instead Athens? My only reasoning is unless Athens was destroyed or lost it's importance in this new timeline it makes sense since it was an important city for many civs it should be placed in.

A little way for me to help is i'll name some good locations for civs capitals.

For the Visigoths they should have Illyria. It was an important region till the Romans took it over and by having the Visigoths make it their capital it allows for them to show that they are not just barbarians and can advance technologiclly.(So that Rome doesn't completely beat them in the dust with new techs.)

The Saxons should have Saxan as it can be considered the starting place of their civilization.

The Vikings should either have Inverness or Tonheim as their capital as both would be influential cities in control of viking lands.

The Ostrogoths should hold Warsaw as their capital so that it is well protected from Byzantine invasion. Perhaps we can make it so that the Saxons and Ostrogoths are friendly so that it makes even more sense for why Warsaw is close to another civs borders with no worry of losing it to invasion?

Kievan Rus' is obviously Kiev as capital no need to give a reason.

Stockholm should be the Swedes capital because of it's apparent strategic and and economic importance.

Technically Helsingfors was not founded until the mid 1500's but we can easily rectify that by saying the Finnish leaders were looking for a location for a capital and found it earlier then normal and founded the city.

The Vandals should have Kablow and the Franks can have Chauci. I'll develop reasons later on.

As for the Moors i'd either give them a capital deep in Africa far away from Roman attack or Corduba to make it a strategic military location.(Gives people who play Rome also another reason to fight the Moors other then just to fend off invaders.

Tiflis should be the Hunnic capital as that is relatively near Central Asia which could be equalled to where the Hunnic tribes began.

That's about it for the civs and their capitals.

Due to the jungles east of India i think there should be a road that connects to the historical Silk Road going Northwest out of India. Only problem for India is that it is controlled by the Timurids. This will give India a reason to invade Timurids instead of the opposite way around.

That's about it for tips i can say.

Placeholder civs is a bit more difficult and i'll have to think on those.

I came up with a good leader for Rome though. Romulus Cesaer. He can be considered a descendent of Augustus and Julius. since every Cesaer so far that was important created Dictatorships during their rule with Romulus be like his ancestors and reform the Republic into the Empire or will he keep the Republic and remain as Chancellor of it.(This makes it so when a Player or AI changes the civics of Rome to something more Monarchial or Totalitarian it makes sense.)

Thanks, i have added your suggestions.

Do you think any of the city names are wrong? I know i made up Saxan, i couldnt find another name for it. but if you could think of one.

should the Finns have baltic access? i have moved their city 1 tile NE and changed its name to Finna.

Should the Hun capital be so far south? in history they moved their capitol around poland i think so if they expanded north-east would they move their capitol to the centre? the middle of there current empire is Sharukan. maybe make it capitol. How would you feel about putting the mongols in a position that they could take the huns fairly quickly, but not have enough recources to take Kievan Rus, that would free up russia a bit.

As for the leader i would rather go for Generic leader names like Consul, King of Japan. maybe the title for leader of rome could be. Praesieo Caesar (for president Caesar).

I have begun work on the map and will have cities done in a few days. Culture, Diplomatic Relations and Unit Placements will take a bit longer. Then i will have to go into the WBS to change Civ Names, Leader Names, Placeholder Civs, Colours (Feel free to suggest colours).

What should the speed be? personally i don't play anything quicker than marathon.

I think the Fin idea is pretty good.

Having the capital in Sharukan is also a good idea as it lets Kiev also get the chance to invade and try and take it as well as the Mongols.

Generic names is good as well. If i think of anything else i'll post something.

Sorry guys! I'v been busy with school, and such, so I haven't devoted a whole lot of time to CivFanatics! I just checked things out, and my, this is looking quite amazing! I agree with your ideas for the Fins, as well as the capital movement. While I'd prefer more personalized leaders, generic leaders are alright, I suppose. If I'm not posting here, and you need any help, just shoot me a PM and I'll assist in any way I can. Keep it up!

Tilemap: Added Africa. Changed Some Citynames in Europe. Made borders limited to cities culture.

I was thinking about Ethiopia. The Kingdom of Axum collapsed because the arabs destroyed its trade with byzantines and india, wheras now it survives and has grown and is a fairly well-off state.
should i go for it being crumbling as now byzantine conrtols the estern half of the red sea it doesnt need Axum as an ally to trade with the indians and chinese.

I have been researching the silk road and i see what you mean by going through the Timurids Land.
Would the Timurids allow this trade? or would china be blocked off from the west, causing it to be ven more warmongering against the mongolians.

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Some details i overlooked. Sorry about getting these things in a little late but again i overlooked them when i was looking at the map.(They are mostly just name changes so nothing major.)

Up to you but Syracusae or Palermo is the best choice for Sicily. Both were important in the Roman and Pre-Roman time so it works either way. The only change if the choice is Palermo is that it's location would have to be moved over two spaces to the left. If Palermo is the choice of the two it was known as Panormus when under Roman control. As for Syracusae it's plot is technically one spot south but it doesn't truely matter all that much.

Another city is Turris. Caralis(Cagliari today.) was and still is the capital of Sardinia. Both are promineant cities on Sardinia only difference would be is that Turris is in the north and Caralis is on the south plot.

Only change for Valencia is to Valentia as it is the Latin name for it.

Paraetonium was known in Byzantine times as Paraitonion.

Those were all the ones that i could find the Latin or Byzantine name changes for them all the others were perfectly on the dot. Question for cities under the control of the Franks or other ethnic groups that have language translations of the cities they control should we make the cities like Mainz instead Mayence or since the French language would not develop(since Latin would never come to their civ.) we should just leave those cities alone?

I think the Kingdom should be alright it just won't be a middleman to China and India for the Byzantines' meaning it will be less wealthy but should be alright.

The Timurids would I think allow Kublai and the Yuan Dynasty to trade with the West but would not let their enemies the Song Dynasty acess. A thing i would assume is that while the Timurids were their own nation they would still hold respect for the Great Khan's Grandson and his Empire.

I chose both Turris and Syracusae to give Carthage a better radius so it is a better city and so that Turris can work the island north of Sardina. I also made the name changes you suggested and i will try to find some Germanic names for the cities, but i can't find any on wikipedia.

I will move Syracusae 1 tile south to be able to work malta (don't know why i didnt do that in the first place). Should i also add a city to south greece?

What is the Capitol of the Timurids? and what would be the alternate world name for baghdad and other currently arab named cities that would have remained Persian/Mongol named?

Also what is the Capitol of the Song Dynasty?

I will have to think about trade routes. I am going to add ocean instead of coast around the southern tip and maybe even eastern bit of africa so if Romans and Byzantines go to war WRR loses its trade routes with india. Do land trade routes work through an enemies land? i presume not but i might be wrong.

A city down there wouldn't be so bad but would it interfere with Athens? If not then i say definently add it Sparta is a good idea for it since it was imporant in the Classical age.

Samarkand or Herat were the capitals of the Timurids so either would work. As for Baghdad wikipedia only has the name of it in Arabic(Bagdad) and Turkish(Bagdat) i'll go on Rhye's and Fall of Civ though to find out Persian and Mongolian names for it.

Kaifeng or Hangzhou are the possible choices for the Song dynasty.(I'd pick Hanzghou due to it being further south and thus not as likely to quickly fall to the Yuan Dynasty.) The ancestral name of Hangzhou is Lin'an and the ancestral name of Kaifeng is Bianjing.

They might. not totally sure of it but having that ocean there is a good idea. It makes it so that if the two due go to war Rome's Indian city can feel like it's all alone.

Here are some city names in German that are not already in German(They are mostly modern since there is not much record of the ancient German names.)

Vindelclium=Ausburg
Buda=Budapest or just Ofen.(either work.)

That's about all the cities i could find.

I found the Timurid name for Baghdad. Ctesiphon, but if it had remained persian when the mongols took it it would be Selucia. Ctesiphon or Selucia?

Noted Timurid and Chinese Capitols.

I think the ocean would work as india's colony would be cut off from trade in real life. just like byzantines would be similarly cut off from americas.

I am going to find classical Germanic names for their cities because as you said latin wouldnt have spread there. however what religion would the germanics be?

Tilemap: Added Big Part of Asia to map. Filled in Cities for Timurids and India. Added Ocean round Africa. Changed some city names and places. Turris 1s and to Caralis. Syracusae 1s same name.
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If we consider America to be discovered by Zheng He in his treasure fleet expeditions then I think they would discover before the historical discovery of the Spanish. This would require more alternate history as the expeditions ended upon his death. Just a suggestion, could you link the original thread on the Rhyes and Fall of Civilization Modmod forum? That way people just seeing this thread would know more of what is going on.

Both are really good sounding capitals but i'd change it to Selucia becuase despite the Mongols conquering the region the Persian language and culture persisted into the time of the Timurids.

The German Tribes religion depends on Catholicism and Rome's opinion of it. If the Pope decides that spreading Christianity is important to them(Which historically he did and i would assume in this condition he would as well.) then i would presume he'd send missionaries into their lands to convert them. I would also assume that the Roman President would like this as well as it gives the Romans a chance to peacefully intergrate the Germans into their lands. Otherwise i'd say that we can either give them no religion to make little change or add another religion in to represent their paganism.

Here are some Persian versions or just other versions of some city names in the East
Baku=Baqy,Baki,Baky
Tabris=Tauris,Shahistan(This version is named after a Persian Emperor the other one and original is Armenian in origin.)
Nineui(I assumed this was Nineveh)= Ninawa(current Arabic translation for the province in Iran.)
Rayy=Rey,Rages,Rhages,Sharhr-e Ray(Persian)
Kandahar=Qandahar
Muscat=Masqat(Arabic)
Urgench=Gorganch(Persian)

Should we have Parsa(Persepolis) in the game for the Timurids? It was the ancestral city capital of the Achaemenid Empire and was an important dynasty until the fall of that Empire and conquering by the Arabs.

Heres the link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=332256

Thank you, but I meant if Cheesemijit could post it in the opening post. I already know where the thread is...

oh whoops.

Added the link to the first post. needed to change some things there and will update the civ list.

Where would Parsa be?
For Cities around the Erythraean Sea i used this map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/PeriplusMap.jpg
I will make your city name changes
I might to catholicism to some ex-roman cities for the vandals, but otherwise i think they would want to avoid roman culture.
What religion would Vikings be?
What Religion Would India Be?
Same for Timurids, Ethiopia, Mali, Moors, Huns, Golden Horde, Chagatai, Oirats, Yuan, Song, Japan and pretty much the rest.

Parsa is located 2 spots west of Kerman(Right next to the mountains that are west of it to make it easier.)

India can be split hinduism/buddhism to make Gupta nad Vakarata hate each other even more?

Timurids and the other Mongol related states should have either buddhism, catholicism(some mongols followed this faith and without Islam it would mean more would go to it.), or one of the Chinese religions like Taoism or Confucism.

Chinese Nations should have either Taoism,Confucism, or Buddhism.

Japan should have Buddhism.

Ethiopia gets a split of Catholicism and Judaism in its cites?

Vikings can either get Paganism(if we make a religion for it.) or Catholicism.

Mali and the Moors are the only ones i couldn't think of a religion for.

i guess the chinese cities will have all the chinese ones and then just let them decide. but finding religious spread maps is hard, i might just go with the 1500 maps religions but change half the islamics to catholic. Eventually i would like to change hinduism and judaism or taoism with Orthodox and Paganism.

Do you want Parsa and Kerman? or instead of.

would the Romans had spread Cristianity to the indians or where they really strong buddhist/hindu's?

Oh and Holy Cities. I guess Catholic - Rome, Hindu - Patna, Buddhist - Lhasa, Judaism - Jerusalem and i will go with the 1500 ones for chinese religions.
if i make Orthodox (wont be untill after scen is done) then Constantinople? and Pagan... dunno for pagan, no city should gain money from paganism so maybe none. We might need to add an american religion to stop random religions spreading there upon discovery.

What woould the americas be called if china discovered them first? not that it matters but...

Moors would have spain and therefore traces of Cristianity but i wouldnt like them to convert to it. will have to wait untill paganism then give them that. Would Kievan Rus be Christian?

Up to you on Parsa i just thought it should be included in some way since it was at one time an important city for the Persians.

The Romans would definently spread it into their cities and would try to spread it into India but i think it would be met with competition with the Indian religions already established.

Orthodox should be Constantinople. As for paganism the options are either have no holy city or pin the pagan religion on a specific type and find the origins of it.

An Americna religion is a good idea perhaps make it like Paganism and give it no holy city as well?

As for America i would persume that Amerigo Vespucci would still exist in this world(only he'd be Roman and not Italian) so the Romans would upon founding America still name it America and we can just have the Chinese give it another name(Perhaps something relating to Zheng He to remember his discovery.)

Kievan Rus would be Orthodox through their trade and connections with the Byzantines.(The two were close its how Russian Orthodoxy was eventually formed off of Greek.)

As for the Moors giving them Christian cities is a good idea and making them not have it as a state religion is also good.

Ok as i work on the map i need you to help with units.
How many defedning each city for each civ?
How many defending the captiol/ specific cities for each civ?
which civs have armies prepared for an attack in their land or enemies land? (eg Song at Yuan borders) and then how many?
What Technologies for each civ?
What Units? (Depends on Technology)
What Promotions for all units of one civ or for specific units (eg Romans more experienced but less numbered than barbs)
Any hero units with a great general attached to start? if so what name and promotions?

Units will take more time and balancing than anything else on the mod.

also will we need to add any specific rescources to the map that would be there in this alternate world?
then also what wonders to what city?

also: would you be ok with me using Judaism as a placeholder for Orthodox and Islam as a placeholder for Paganism for now? maybe even one of the eastern religions as a placeholder for an american religion?

Using a placeholder religion is fine with me.

When it comes to cities i'll draw an exact number in a bit but right now i'd say for large civs like Rome and Byzantine there should be more troops stationed at the borders with large numbers of forces at the borders where wars are going on.

For small civs they should have a good number of units in all of their cities.

The Romans, Byzantines, Moors,Chinese(Both Yuan and Song), and Japan should be the most advanced any others that should be added to the list for most advanced?

Romans should have Mostly late medieval/early Renaissance units. Byzantine the same. The Barbarians should have late Classical/Early Medieval units but enough where they can still deal damage to Roman or other powerhouse forces.

Thats bout it off the top of my head.

Which civs should start with the gunpowder tech?
I would Assume india would be fairly advanced, but maybe not in millitary techs.
what about the recources thing?

The Yuan Dynasty and Song Dynasty should both have gunpowder. If the Yuan is as open with Chinese secrets as the real one was then Byzantine's should also have it. After that it all depends on how friendly Rome and Byzantine are to decide if the Byzantine's will share the secret of Gunpowder.

The Gupta Empire should be advanced Culturely and scientifically. Militarily it all depends on how we are going to portray the Gupta Empire. The Empire was known for having an early form of a Secret Agency that caught criminals and other lawbreakers.(So perhaps it can give more a reason to have them be up to a Constitution in techs?)

As for resources i'd say we should be fine with what we have unless someone else can think of something.

I would just like to say that Amerigo Vespucci, though he would be alive, would not have the continent named after him. The Romans in this scenario would not be the first to discover the Americas. Therefor by the time the Romans actually did catch on to the Americas, Vespucci would be dead. This is purely guess work, but I think this makes the most sense. If we are making two colonial American civilizations one half would have the religions of China, and the other half should be Catholic as that is the religion of Rome.

Ah right i was forgetting that. But anyways whenever the Chinese discover America the Romans were sure to follow them(So if the dates of founding by China is within 1450-1510 Vespucci, an explorer would be able to eventually follow in suit in helping the Romans explore the new world.)

Turns out America is a Feminized Latin version of Amerigo's name.(Thus if Roman America was to split itself from the Mother Country excluding their culture being entirely Roman the names can easily be similar in ways to the US.)

The Naming of the Americas should be split. Any nation that speaks Latin or has friendly relations with Rome should most likely call it America while the Chinese and other nations with friendly or neutral relations with them should follow the Chinese. A way to make the name America seem more plausible for the Romans is to have historically in this scenario the Romans create a position designed to be commander in chief of the exploration and colonization of the Americas and Vespucci gets the spot.(So while he is not the founder of the continents his involvement with them is extremely influential.)

By the way should the Byzantines have land in the Americas? Rome and Byzantine should be close enough with each other that i would think it would allow them acess to have more allies on the new continent to aid if a war with China was to occur.(Otherwise mabye the Byzantine's can have acess to SA while NA is split Roman/Chinese.)

Why would the Chinese let that information spread though? I can understand the other European nations learning about the Americas in 15th century Europe, actual history, but it seems unlikely that this type of information would be so wide spread that it appears to be fact. This would be opposed to just rumors as was the case for some of the Viking expeditions.

Well the Yuan Dynasty was known for being less strict on the trading of information like the secret to Gunpowder perhaps(If they find America) through their relations with Rome they trade the information of a continent to the East of China(Which by itself gives the Romans a reason to explore West.) If it is the Song Dynasty civ that discovers America then I developed a second reason.

Another possibility is that the Timurids or some other civ blocks Roman trade acess to China(or places severe tariffs on them.) and as a result the Romans sail west knowing they will eventually reach China.(Romans were crazy about Silk as described in Roman-Sino relations, this possibility seems too similar to real life history though and i hope that we can avoid it as a reason.) The superstition of the world being flat would never come to fruitation as the common populace would still have acess to Greek and Roman literature that disproves this idea.

A third possibility is that the Romans had spies within China that revealed the information. Or the Romans seeking to rid their reliance on China for silk sail west knowing that there is something that way(either more land or China the reason could change easily.)

These are some reasons i came up with at the top of my head.

Thoes sound like sound theories. I'm pretty partial to the last theory, however, because it means that tension between two 'superpowers' exists, which could lead to war. I also happen to like the idea of a Byzantium South America, particularly modern day Brazil(New Byzantium comes to mind as a name). It also opens to possiblity of an Incan-Byzantium Alliance, preserving the Incan culture and civlization. The Byzantines could even expand north, into modern day Mexico, forming another alliance with teh Aztec, or simply conqueroring them.

Are we assuming The Western Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire are enemies or allies? If they were enemies I see no way the Byzantines could settle South America, as Rome would control the western part of the Mediterranean and thus the strait of Gibraltar. The only other way to get to open Ocean is to travel on the East coast of Africa, which would make the travel time very long and inefficient to access America. How about if the Byzantines are left to colonize South East Asia and Indonesia, much like what happened with Portugal?

Even if Rome and Byzantium are enemies, which I do not believe they are, they do not controll the Strait of Gibraltar, look at the map. It says the Moors controll Southern Ispania, being at war with Rome. Byzantium, being neutral, would be allowed to pass through easily.

It still seems unlikely they would be able to colonize there. I would assume the Byzantine Empire would go to war with the Roman Empire eventually, thus the open Strait of Gibraltar would be hard to get to. The Moors could also restrict the access out of the strait, or make ships pay heavy taxes to go through. The Moors would definitely take advantage of their strategic position. The only option I can think of is a united alliance between the Moors and the Byzantine Empire against the Western Roman Empire. Even then unless they could take control of the Mediterranean from the Roman Empire, it would still be an awkward area to sail safely. I realize there is the option where the Byzantines are in no conflict with anyone, but that seems unlikely with the different religions given to all three nations.

Well, Byzantium and Rome understand the balance of power, so they wouldn't openly declare war, knowing how catostrophic that might turn out to be. And why would it be unlikely? If they are in a 'cold war' with Rome, they'd want to immitate everything they can. 'New' land, with fresh resources and new allies would deffinatly appeal to them. And the Moors may tax them, or they might have a trade alliance (perhaps olives, ect. for safe passage) It seems like a reasonable idea to me.

Well Rome and Byzantine i think would be close as the two would only be different politically and religiously(as of around the 1000s) having a culture that is similar would tie them together. The relations i would believe would be neutral to friendly as the two have common enemies, were created off of the same nation, believe in similar ideas(mabye not in religion but in other aspects.), and besides China are two of the most powerful nations in the world.

Rome really doesn't have to worry about acces to the New World as they have Britain, France, and Northern Portugal and Spain to send ships out to the lands(resulting in them settling in Northern America.)

The Byzantines would have a tougher time gaining acess to the new world but i wouldn't say they aren't allowed at all to have it. I think they should have colonies(on South America.) as it creates a challenge for the Byzantines to manage an empire so far away and no easy way to acess it.(Unless you make allies of the Moors who would be displeased with the Byzantines due to the similarities with their Roman enemies.) I think the Byzantine's should be like the Portugese in that they don't completely abandon the New World but at the same time to save time and money they mostly expand into Indonesia and Australia.(In other words they might have Brazil lets just say.)

The way I see it the Romans have the challenge of having enemies(who are possibly at war with them) in almost every direction(cept east where the Byzantine's are.), the Byzantine's have the challenge of managing colonies in SA where if the Moors declare war news reaching the colonies take forever, China(both Song and Yuan) have the challenge of not being a unified China, etc. the list can go on and on but i think it's a good idea to definently give each civ some sort of challenge to make them appealing.

Remember though that this map starts in 1400 so i don't know how to represent their future colonies other than giving china a galleon with a settler on at the start.

I have started work on the actual map and all the cities in Europe and Northern Africa are done. I just have to edit the Civinfo's and i'm going to do that before working more on the map as i might do something wrong.

Yea only reason i really spoke about colonies and such is kinda like to make a historical background for that time period in this alternate history(since 1400 has already occured in real time.) so that we can see whether the Chinese or Romans actually end up in America.

One feature which would be nice is to come up with a list of achievements that one would have to accomplish in a game. This would be like the RFC UHV's however not coded, just recommendations. Since there are over forty nations it might be better to just do this for the most major nations in this alternate history scenario.

An easy way to do this if we don't want to make it a victory condition like the UHV's are we can have it placed in the Civ description or on mabye the main post of the thread.

I was just curious, would there be a Holy Roman Empire in this alternate reality? Or any confederation of the Germanic states? Because I plan on making a Europa Universalis 3 mod based off this scenario - unless you have any objections - and I need to know how, if at all, the HRE should be represented.

Hrmm well the actual Holy Roman Empire where the Emperor was crowned as sucessor to the Fallen Rome doesn't exsist but depending on conditions the Germanic tribes may have some alliance with each other against Rome and Byzantine that could equal the HRE.

I would say without the Hunnic migrations putting stress on Germany and the rest of europe the Current Germanic Tribes (Saxons, Franks, Vandals, Visigoths, Ostrogoths) would have remained seperated due to diffferent enemies and slightly different cultures.

The Only historic nations that develpoed around europe are the Moors, Vikings and Kievan Rus'. Possibly the Finns and Swedes are quite historic too but with more pressure from more barbaric tribes and less civilised culture to be observed it takes them longer to develop into their historic state by 1400.

Would you like me to post screenshots so you can take a look and see things that might need changing or just let me work through it asap?

what turn is the year 1400?

Yea screen shots would be good. If im correct 1400 is turn 200.

Current Civ List, heres a Key. The Civ Ajective is the most important as thats what Dynamic Civ Names Uses.
Civ Description, Short-Civ-Description, Civ Adjective (Placeholder Civ)
1. Western Rome, Rome, Western Roman (Rome) (Julius)
2. Eastern Rome, Byzantia, Eastern Roman (Byzantine) (Justinian)
3. The Moors, Moorland, Moorish (Carthage) (Saladin)
4. The Vikings, Norway, Viking (Norse)
5. The Franks, Frankia, Frankish(France)
6. The Vandals, Vandalia, Vandal (Celts)
7. The Visigoths, West Gothia, Visigoth (Germany)
8. The Ostrogoths, East Gothia, Ostrogoth (Poland)
9. The Saxons, Saxonia, Saxon (Germany)
10. The Swedes, Sweedland, Sweedish (Sweedish)
11. The Finns, Finnland, Finnish (Finnish)
12. Kievan Russia, Russia, Kievan (Russia)
13. The Huns, Hunnia, Hunnic (Russia)
14. Songhay, West Africa, Songhay (Mali)
15. Bantu Peoples, Central Africa, Bantu (Mali)
16. Khoisan Peoples, South Africa, Khoisan (South Africa)
17. Shwalli Peoples, Zululand, Shwalli (Zulu)
18. Luo Peoples, East Africa, Luo (Zulu)
19. Ethiopia, Ethiopia, Ethiopian (Ethiopia)
20. The Arabs, Arabia, Arabian (Arabia)
21. The Timurid Dynasty, Persia, Timurid (Persia)
22. The Golden Horde, Golden Horde Mongolia, Golden Horde (Mongolia)
23. Chagatai Khanate, Chagatai Mongolia, Chagatai (Turks)
24. Tibetan Peoples, Tibet, Tibetan (China)
25. The Gupta, India, Guptan (India)
26. Vakataka, South-India, Vakataka (India)
27. The Ava, Ava, Avanese (Thailand)
28. Siam, Siam, Siamese (Khmer)
29. The Champa, Champa, Champanese (Thailand)
30. The Song Dynasty, Song China, Song (China)
31. The Yuan Dynasty, Yuan China, Yuan (China)
32. The Oirat Khanate, Oirat Mongolia, Oirat (Mongolia)
33. Japan, Japan, Japanese (Japan)
34. Malasian Peoples, Malasia, Malasian (Polynesian)
35. Papuan Peoples, Papua, Papuan (Polynesian)
36. The Aztecs, Texcoco, Aztec (Aztec)
37. The Incans, Inca, Incan (Inca)
38. Columbian Peoples, Colombia, Columbian (Columbia)
39. Amazonian Peoples, The Amazon, Amazonian (Brazil)
40. Pacific-Anowarkowan Peoples, West Anowarkowa, West Anowarkowan (Native America)
41. Plains-Indian Peoples, Plains-Indians, Plains-Indian (Native America)
42. Iroquois Confederacy, Five Nations, Iroquois (Native America)
43. Atlantic-Anowarkowan Peoples, East Anowarkowa, East Anowarkowan (Native America)
44. Pacific-Texcocoan Peoples, West Texcoco, West Texcocoan (Maya)
45. Atlantic-Texcocoan Peoples, East Texcoco, East Texcocoan (Maya)


I do need Leader Placeholders and Names too.

this is Marathon so i think 200 is too early. the one for 1500 is like 653

Oh yea 200 is for regular i think. The list looks good to me.

I will have to test the civ names to see if the dynamic's work, i found out a way to show dynamic civnames in the scoreboard, i will post it here seperately later but you could probs search it and find it as i posted it somehwere else, i find it much better.

What i definately need now is Which Leadheads and Leadernames for each civ. I can think of a couple.
Civ: Leaderhead, Leadername
Rome: Julius Caesar, Pontifex Maximus
Byzantium: Justinian, John VIII Palaiologos
Moors: Hannibal, Abdullah
Vikings: Ragnar, Eric of Pomerania
Franks: Louis, Charles VI
Vandals: Brennus, Wenceslaus

I Need this if u want some proper leaders, for now i'm just putting leader of...
Populations Might be Tricky, But i think i will just use the 1500AD Improvements and then Put Pops to 1 or 2 under max.

TADA! i have put all the cities with their owners and right names on the map. I have edited the WBS and put civnames and leaders for the first 15 or so. have a look and feedback. Next Up is Religions then Techs then Wonders then Improvements then Populations then Buildings then Units then testing then changing things possibly.
228781
Is everyone alright for me using Islam to represent Pagan and Judaism to Represent Orthodox. Perhaps Hinduism for americas?

I think even though the Islamic Empire would not happen in this scenario Islam should still be present in the Middle East. Is it possible to convert Taoism into something? China would be Confucius and Buddhist so Taoism is open.

Well, I wouldn't say the Middle East, more like the Arabian Penninsula. I'm sure the Byzantines would force harsh punishment for any Muslims in their trerritoties, like the Spanish Inquisition. The Persians, I'm not too sure about. Maybe they'd be just as strict, maybe not.

The Persians punishment of Muslisms in their territory depends primarily on their religion. If it was Catholicism or Orthodox then Muslisms would be hunted down.

If it's Hinduism then it all depends on the Muslim and Persian leaders. If they wish for peace and harmony between the two(which some Muslim rulers of India did want.) then the religion may survive. Othewise it's a similar situation to Christianity.

I couldnt find any buddhist opinions on Islam so thats blank.

An easy way for deciding the leaders of civs is to look for a civ that lived around that time in that region(if that nation exsisted in real timeline even better.) and make them leader.

So for the Byzantines' either John VIII, Constantine XI(Famous for being the last Byzantine in real life.) or Manuel II(Who ruled at exactly 1400 if that helps.)

The Romans are trickier since they are now a Republic however i think a good title for leader should involve Ceasar in some way(Either as a title showing that the name still is a title used by Romans.) or as a surname to represent this rulers relation to Julius and Augustus.

The Yuan Dynasty should have some named perhaps related to Ghengis or Kublai Khan?

I'll try thinking of a couple more.

I don't think the romans would want to keep Caesar as it was a reminder of the Empire and they would support a democracy. just like the USSR would never call stalin or other leaders a Tsar.

I Don't Think Islam Would make a Pollitical Difference with all the propaganda and laws against it from the Byzantines, but i would have it in the Arab cities and germanic and moors as an 'Other' Religion to stop christianity spreading to them. Confusionism can be an American Religion.

As for Leaders I would appreciate if you could do the research and make the list so that i can continue with the map work.

Heres a list of most of the rulers. I don't know how to put the details into spoilers to shrink the page sorry.

1.Rome- Romulus Severillus(Combination of two Roman names.)
2.Byzantine- John VII, Manuel II, or Constantine XI(All rulers of Byzantine in 1400s) are all suitable to be Emperor
3.Moors- Abdullah I (Ruler of Manrinid Dynasty in Real timeline)
4.Vikings- Margaret I (Queen of the Kalmar Union in the Real Timeline)
5.Franks- John II (Duke of Bavaria in Real Timeline)
6.Vandals- Albert IV (Duke of Austria. The real Vandal rulers had died out in 500s so the Austrians are their closest real life rulers since the Vandals rule Austria in this timeline.)
7.Visigoths- Miklos (Ruler of Transylvania the main period that the Visigoths passed through.)
8.Ostrogoths- Alexander the Kind(Ruler of Moldovia)
9.Saxons- Henry VII (Due to the English Kings having descended from Saxons and Normans who are located in this region the real English Kings would develop just only ruling over different parts of the world.)
10.Swedes- Eric of Pomerania (Also Eric III of Sweden)
11.Fins- Charles VIII (Son of Eric III reason for ruling Finland perhaps is because he rebelled from his father.)
12.Kievan Rus'- Vasily I (Grand Prince of Moscow descended from the Grand Princes in Kiev.)
13.Huns- Constantine II (Closest Hunnic relations in real life were apparently the Kings of the Bulgarian Empire. Other possibility and this works with other Germanic or other tribes is to create a name that sounds Germanic and make them ruler.)
14.Songhay- Musa III (Was Mansa of Mali around 1400 closest real life ruler as the first Songhai ruler that i could find didn't appear till 1466.)
19.Ethiopia- Dawit I (Ruler of Ethiopia during 1400.)
21.Timurids- Timur II
22.Golden Horde- Edigu (True Ruler of the Golden Horde in 1400s)
23.Chagatai Khanate- Mahmud II(Last ruler of a unified Chagatai Khanate in real life.)
25.Gupta Empire- Chandragupta VI
26. Vakataka Empire- Harihara Raya I(Ruler of Southern India in 1400s)
27.

Taking a break from finding out this info will probably resume the rest tomorrow.

Heres a list of most of the rulers. I don't know how to put the details into spoilers to shrink the page sorry.

Just go advandced mode and click the little SPOIL button while highlighting the text u want to put in it.

1.Rome- Romulus Severillus (What Leaderhead? Julius or Augustus? or maybe even alexander?)
2.Byzantine- Constantine XI (Sounds Coolest, Probs Justinian or Charles of the HRE as leader)
3.Moors- Abdullah I (Works, Hannibal for leaderhead?)
4.Vikings- Margaret I (Awesome i can use Boudica as the LH and save Ragnar for Saxxones)
5.Franks- John II (Louis?)
6.Vandals- Albert IV (Brennus)
7.Visigoths- Miklos (Cuza LH? may be too classical but i would assume Visigoths and Vandals to have adopted more roman culture than the others?)
8.Ostrogoths- Alexander the Kind(I dont think 'The Kind' would still be used by the romans but probally Peter for LH)
9.Saxons- Henry VII (Should find a more german tounge for Henry, Ragnar as LH)
10.Swedes- Eric of Pomerania (Jao or van oranje? for LH)
11.Fins- Charles VIII (Doesnt Matter its a Minor)
12.Kievan Rus'- Vasily I (Charlemagne)
13.Huns- Constantine II (Too close to the Byzantine one. I was just thinking another Genghis for LH)
14.Songhay- Musa III (Was Mansa of Mali around 1400 closest real life ruler as the first Songhai ruler that i could find didn't appear till 1466. I dont know, obviously Mansa for LH)
19.Ethiopia- Dawit I (Yaqob for LH)
21.Timurids- Timur II (Darius for LH? Sulieman might be better)
22.Golden Horde- Edigu (Genghis)
23.Chagatai Khanate- Mahmud II(Kublai)
25.Gupta Empire- Chandragupta VI (Ghandi)
26. Vakataka Empire- Harihara Raya I(Could we find his wife or some close female leader so we can use Asoka)

Sounds good to me and thanks here is some suggestions for LHs for the ones you identified.

1. Rome-Augustus is probably the best suited one for the Romans
2.Byzantine-Justintinian is the most suited as it fits the Byzantine look.
3.Moors-Hannibal is a good leader to me
5.Franks-Louis is probably the best LH that i can think of.
8.Ostrogoths-This is true i went with the name as thats what his translation was. Peter is probably the best LH for them.
11.Oh my bad about the Fins.
13.Genghis is a good LH for the Huns(Only one that might beat it is the actual Mongol nation thats located in Mongolia.)
26. I'll look for one.

Cheesemijit, is this scenario still in development?

Yes, i have finished the map with all the cities and buildings and pop's but I still need some help with which wonders, techs and religions to each city.

then units will take a while too.

I am however quite busy with college but i still have time for this, but my history is rubbish so i really do need you guys help with that bit.

I'm here, and avalible for the time being, so give me a shout.

As for buildings and pops Africa and asia are easier as i can just copy from 1500AD but europe is harder. Putting all the Improvements around Rome i can get it to 14 pop, should i have the cities at their largest or about 3 or 4 below? if you know the right pop for most cities that would be great. I need to know techs before buildings, and buildings before pop. I will have a stab at religions for the west.

What would be Better to use for america: Confucian, Buddhist, Tao or Hindu?

Here is my 'Shout' then. I need you to fill in the forms below for each civ, a rough example of WRR is given but that needs work. I can't really do much work without this now and it may seem like alot of work but remember it should only be needed for the western civs


Civilisation: eg Western Rome
Colour: eg Dark Red
Techs: All Ancient, All Classical, Drama, Fuedalism, Optics...
Religion: eg Christianity (HC Rome)
Wonders: eg Sistine Chapel (Rome), Apolstalic Palace (Rome), Stonehenge (Dumnomiorum)...
National Wonders: eg National Epic (Rome)...
Large City (9+) Buildings: eg Monument, forge, lighthouse...
Medium City (5-8) Buildings: eg Monument, Forge...
Small City (1-4) Buildings: eg Monument...
Large City Army: eg 3 Archers, 1 Swordsman (Prae), 1 Axeman...
Medium City Army: eg 2 Archers, 1 Axeman...
Small City Army: eg 1 Archer...
Exception Units: eg 2 Extra Praetorians in Iberian Cities, 2 Extra Praetorians in Londinium...
Border Armies: eg 3 Prae's outside Mandagora (South India)
Cities with a non State Religion aswell as the state one: Cork (Islam), Salona (Orthodox)



A Clean Version:
Civilisation:
Colour:
Techs:
Religion:
Wonders:
National Wonders:
Large City Buildings:
Medium City Buildings:
Small City Buildings:
Large City Army:
Medium City Army:
Small City Army:
Exception Units:
Border Armies:
City Religion Exceptions:


And here are the civs Civ Desc, Short Desc, Adjective (Placeholder) (Leader)
1. Western Rome, Rome, Western Roman (Rome) (Julius)
2. Eastern Rome, Byzantia, Eastern Roman (Byzantine) (Justinian)
3. The Moors, Moorland, Moorish (Carthage) (Saladin)
4. The Vikings, Norway, Viking (Norse)
5. The Franks, Frankia, Frankish(France)
6. The Vandals, Vandalia, Vandal (Celts)
7. The Visigoths, West Gothia, Visigoth (Germany)
8. The Ostrogoths, East Gothia, Ostrogoth (Poland)
9. The Saxons, Saxonia, Saxon (Germany)
10. The Swedes, Sweedland, Sweedish (Sweedish)
11. The Finns, Finnland, Finnish (Finnish)
12. Kievan Russia, Russia, Kievan (Russia)
13. The Huns, Hunnia, Hunnic (Russia)
14. Songhay, West Africa, Songhay (Mali)
15. Bantu Peoples, Central Africa, Bantu (Mali)
16. Khoisan Peoples, South Africa, Khoisan (South Africa)
17. Shwalli Peoples, Zululand, Shwalli (Zulu)
18. Luo Peoples, East Africa, Luo (Zulu)
19. Ethiopia, Ethiopia, Ethiopian (Ethiopia)
20. The Arabs, Arabia, Arabian (Arabia)
21. The Timurid Dynasty, Persia, Timurid (Persia)
22. The Golden Horde, Golden Horde Mongolia, Golden Horde (Mongolia)
24. Tibetan Peoples, Tibet, Tibetan (China)
25. The Gupta, India, Guptan (India)
26. Vakataka, South-India, Vakataka (India)
30. The Song Dynasty, Song China, Song (China)
31. The Yuan Dynasty, Yuan China, Yuan (China)
34. Malasian Peoples, Malasia, Malasian (Polynesian)
35. Papuan Peoples, Papua, Papuan (Polynesian)

Here is Rome and Byzantine they were the easiest to me.

Civilization:Roman Repblic(I think they shouldn't be Western Rome as by now the two Rome's would have differed greatly and having west and east wouldnt make a good discernation of them.)
Color: Dark Red
Techs: All Ancient, All Classical, Most Medieval(Stopping around Divine Right. Has Education though?)
Religion: Roman Catholicism(HC Rome)
Wonders:Sistine Chapel(Rome), Apostolic Palace(Rome), Stonehenge(Londinum), and Notre Dame(Luteia Parisorum), St. Peter's Basilica(Could be the Catholic Religious Wonder? sounds too similar to Apostolic Palace though i felt.)
National Wonders: Heroic and National Epics(Rome?)
Large City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Lighthouse(If Coastal), Catholic Church and Monastery, Library,Forum, Ampitheater, Aqueduct(Can have if either coastal or not coastal), and Catholic Cathedral(Only in Rome, Londinum, Parisorum, and the most important Iberian Roman city.), Courthouse(regardless of location)
Medium City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Lighthouse(If Coastal), Catholic Monastery, Forum, and Aqueduct(Only if not coastal.), Courthouse(if middle or far distance)
Small City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Forum, and Courthouse(If far distance)
Large City Army: 3-4 Longbowmen(Depends on City Rome, Londinum, and Parisorum should get 4 other big cities 3.), 2-3 Praetorians(Or Macemen depends i reccomend Prae though number also based on city as well.), and 1 Axemen
Medium City Army: 2 Longbowmen, 1-2 Praetorians
Small City Army: 1-2 Longbowmens, 1 Praetorian
Exception Units: 2 Praetorians and Trebuchets in Border Iberian and French territory. 1 Praetorian, 1 Knight(Represents the weak Mounted Army that Rome has.), and 1 Tebuchet in Londinum
Border Armies: 3 Prae near their South Indian City(If they still have one like the plan)
City Religion Exceptions: Border cities(not all but a few can be random)


And here is the Byzantines

Civilization: Byzantine Empire
Color: Either Grey, Dark Green, or Purple
Techs: Same as Rome only they have Divine Right and no Education
Religion: Greek Orthodox(Can be called just Orthodox just as Roman Catholicism just Catholicism)(HC Constantinople)
Wonders: Hagia Sophia(Constantinople), Great Lighthouse(If Alexandria or some city mabye a tile away otherwise then no lighthouse.), Colossus?, Masuleom of Mausallos(Turkish City), Parthenon(Athens)
National Wonders: National and Epic wonder?
Large City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Aqueduct, Hippodrome, Orthodox Church and Monastery, Orthodox Cathedral(In important cities like Athens and Con.), Courthouse, and Market, Grocer
Medium City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Aqueduct, Hippodrome, Orthodox Church and Monastery, Market, Grocer, Courthouse(If medium distance or far away)
Small City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Hippodrome, Orthodox Monastery, Market, Courthouse.
Large City Army: 2-3 Longbowmen, 2-4 Cataphract(Depending on importance of city.), 1 Crossbowmen
Medium City Army:2-3 Longbowmen, 1-2 Cataphract, 1 Crossbowmen
Small City Army:1 Longbowmen, 1 Cataphract, 1 Crossbowmen
Exception Units: Cities near lands Byzantine at war get extra 1-2 Cataphracts depending on danger and 1 Trebuchet and 1 catapult.
Border Armies: Cataphracts stationed near imporant borders that need defending(Not sure where best to place them)
City Religion Exceptions:Similar to Rome border cities depending on the city should possibly get other religions.(So a city near Roman Republic should start with Catholicism unless it is known for being extremely Orthodox at some point.)

Awesome, i know some will be hard but they should be easier for you than me. Keep them coming.

Ouch i have really reached a hard point that needs some discussion. I completely forgot about imrpvements and i will need to know about them before i can do City sizes and therefore buildings and units.

So a revised little list for the romans, and i am serious i need these done or i probally wont be able to finish the map.


Civilization
Roman Republic

Color
Dark Red

Techs
All Ancient, All Classical, Most Medieval (No Optics), Constitution (Need for them to be a republic)

Religion
Roman Catholicism (HC Rome)

Wonders
Sistine Chapel (Rome), Apostolic Palace(Rome), Stonehenge (Londinum), and Notre Dame (Luteia Parisorum).

National Wonders
Heroic Epic (Rome), National Epic (Rome)

Large City Buildings
Lighthouse, Harbour, Forge, Forum, Christian Temple, Christian Monastary, Theatre, Granary, Walls, Barracks, Castle, Stable, Christian Cathedral (for Paris, Rome, Londinium and the West Spain one) Grocer, Libary

Medium City Buildings
Lighthouse, Harbour, Forge, Forum, Christian Temple, Christian Monastary, Theatre, Granary, Walls, Barracks

Small City Buildings
Lighthouse, Harbour, Forge, Forum, Christian Temple, Granary, Walls

Large City Army
3 Longbowmen, 2 Praetorians, 1 Maceman

Medium City Army
2 Longbowmen, 2 Praetorians

Small City Army
1 Longbowman, 1 Praetorian

Fort Units
1 Praetorian Each

Exceptioned City Units
1 extra Longbowman in Paris, Rome, Londinium and Carthage.
1 Knight in Central Iberian Fort.

Forts
4 along Rhine, 1 between Londinium and Edinburgh, 4 on Roman/Moor Border (3 in Iberia one in Africa), 1 on Visigoth/Roman Border.

City Religion Exceptions
A few Border Cities have Pagan and Illyrian City has Orthodox

Improvement Ratings in Regions
95% in Italia
80% in Gaul
70% in Iberia
70% in Britania
70% in Africus

Road Amounts[B]
Make sure every city, Recourse and Improvement is conected, but empty tiles or Farm tiles can have no road. (Other Options for any civ are: (Connect Cities, Recource and Imrpovements) (Connect Cities, Recources and Village/Towns) (Connect Cities and Recources Only) (Connect Cities and Key Recources) (Connect Cities Only) (Connect Only Key Cities)

[B]Special Roads
Silk Road, the Path of which i can find on Wikipedia
Road between Carthage and Egypt?


Another point, I am unsure on city sizes, I can get cities to like paris to 21 but i feel that is too high. should i see how high it can go then take off a third? so Paris would be a size 14 city at the start? Rome would Remain 15, its max.

Are there any imrovements that you cant normally put on forest that i should put on forest?

How many roads is also confusing, for the romans it seems alright to give all tiles a road but it is ugly and maybe too good?

It's a little late for me right now so im gonna catch up on quite a few of them tomorrow as tomorrow is a down day for me. As for answers to your questions.

The most powerful cities in the Roman Empire should be larged sized mabye not max but a good size that would be expected for that time period(Since Rome is still in power the numbers should be actually higher then real life medieval times.)

Rome should have roads traveling through all the cities(in other words they are all connected.) and have roads going to all the resources(so just a regular farm or hamlet could stay without a road unless it is in the way of a path from mabye Rome to Mediolanum.)

There should be a tiny road between Carthage and Egypt as they were both Roman territory so the Romans would have made sure the two were connected.

Africus should be a little higher in impovement rating then Britania and Iberia only cause their only enemy lies to the west.(Byzantine's are more of neutral/allies and the desert is devoid of any real civilization.) perhaps they have 75% and mabye up Gaul to 85%?

Heres 3,4,5,6,7,8

#3 The Moors

Civilization: The Moors

Color: Brown

Techs: All Ancient,All Classical, All Medieval(up to Banking perhaps.)

Religion:What primary religion Moors will be(If the major power for the religion pick random city for holy city.)

Wonders: Spiral Minaret perhaps?(in their capital city if so.), Univercity of Sankore

National Wonders: Heroic and National Epic

Large City Buildings: Monument, Aqueduct, Barracks, Forge, Library, Bank, Market, Grocer, Madrassa(Perhaps or mint is a good idea), Their primary religions temple, monastery, and cathedral(The Cathedral in the holy city and capital perhaps?)

Medium City Buildings: Monument, Aqueduct, Barracks, Forge, Library, Market, Grocer, Primary Religions Temple and Monastery.

Small City Buildings: Monument, Barracks, Forge, Market, Primary Relugions Monastery

Large City Army: 2 Camel Archers(As Unique unit for them?), 2 Crossbowmen

Medium City Army: 1 Camel Archer, 1 Crossbowmen, 1 Archer

Small City Army: 1 Crossbowmen, 2 Archer

Exception Units: 2 Camel Archers in Primary Iberian city

Border Armies: 2 Macemen at African Border

City Religion Exceptions: Roman Catholicism in all Iberian cities and possibly some African cities as well.(Unless the Moors are not tolerant then they should have very few cities being Catholic.

Forts: Mostly around the same number as Rome and near the same location but vary a bit since they wouldn't just copy the Romans.

Improvements Percentage: Africa 90%, Iberia 60-70%. Iberia has been a tense location and with the constant destruction and fighting it would have resulted in much of previous Roman improvements being destroyed.

Roads: All the cities in Iberia should be connected(Or almost all of them.) and as for Africa the most important cities should be connected.


#4 The Vikings

Civilization: The Vikings

Colour: Some form of Blue

Techs:All Ancient, All Classical, early Medieval

Religion:Pagan(right? i forget some of the stuff.)

Wonders: None

National Wonders: Heroic Epic

Large City Buildings: Monument,Forge, Barracks, Trading Post, Market, Grocer?, Their religions major buildings

Medium City Buildings:Monumtent, Forge, Barracks, Trading Post, Market, Grocer, their religions temple and monastery

Small City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Barracks, Trading Post, religions monastery

Large City Army: 2 Berserker, 2 Longbowmen, 1 Trireme, 1 Galley

Medium City Army: 1 Berserker, 1 Longbowmen, 1 Trireme

Small City Army: 1 Longbowmen, 1 Galley

Exception Units: Extra Berserkers in English Territory

Border Armies: 2 Berserkers on border to Roman territory

City Religion Exceptions: Catholicism in cities they control in England that might have been Catholic around that time.(England region, Scotland and Ireland perhaps.)

Improvements: 85% In Viking Territory, 75-80% Scotland, 70-75% in England

Roads: All English, Scottish cities and their improvements connected, As for Viking homeland some important cities should be ocnnected otherwise no roads.

#5 The Franks

Civilization: Franks

Color: Dark Blue

Techs: All Ancient, All Classical, Early Medieval

Religion:Pagan/Catholic?

Wonders:None

National Wonders: National Epic

Large City Buildings: Monument, Walls, Forge, Library, Barracks, Castle, Market, Main
religion primary buildings

Medium City Buildings: Monument, Walls, Forge, Barracks, Castle, Market

Small City Buildings: Monument, Walls, Castle, Barracks

Large City Army: 2 Knights, 2 Longbowmen

Medium City Army: 2 Longbowmen, 1 Knight

Small City Army: 1 Longbowmen

Exception Units: 2 Knights in important cities

Border Armies: Knights located near Roman border or other Germanic tribes

City Religion Exceptions: Catholicism in cities very close to Rome

Improvements: 85-90% in Capital City area, 75-85% in surrounding areas.

Roads: Only cities and some important improvements

#6 The Vandals

Civilization: The Vandals

Color: Bright Red

Techs: All Ancient, Late Classical

Religion: Pagan

Wonders:None

National Wonders: None

Large City Buildings: Monument, Barracks, Pagan Buildings, Market, Forge, Lighthouse

Medium City Buildings: Monument, Barracks, Pagan buildings, Forge, Lighthouse

Small City Buildings: Monument, Barracks, Forge

Large City Army: 3 Axemen, 2 Archers

Medium City Army: 2 Axemen, 2 Archers

Small City Army: 2 Axemen, 2 Archers

Exception Units: 1 extra Archer and 1 Axemen in Capital and other important cities

Border Armies: Axemen(Not sure of an accurate number.)

City Religion Exceptions: Catholicism and even perhaps Orthodox near borders

Improvements: If at peace with Franks then 80-90% in all of Northern Vandal territory, if at war upon start then 75-80%, Southern territory should be less improved mabye 65-70%?

Roads: If at peace with Franks then Northern territory completely connected up, if at war then the roads should be scattered and some cities should be left unconnected.

#7 Visigoths

Civilization: Visigoths

Color: Green?

Techs: All Ancient, Late Classical, perhaps even some early Medieval?

Religion: Pagan

Wonders:None

National Wonders: None

Large City Buildings: Mounument, Forge, Barracks, Walls, Pagan buildings, Market, Library

Medium City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Barracks, Walls, Market, Pagan buildings

Small City Buildings: Monument, Walls, Barracks, Forge

Large City Army: 1 Longbowmen(or 2 Archers), 4 Axemen

Medium City Army: 2 Archers, 2 Axemen

Small City Army: 1 Archer, 2 Axemen

Exception Units: Capital get 1 Longbowmen or 3 Archers

Border Armies: Couple of Swordsmen in the area

City Religion Exceptions:Orthodox in areas close to Byzantine Empire

Improvements: Southern Lands less developed, northern lands more developed

Roads: Northern cities and southern cities mostly connected.

#8 Ostrogoths

Civilization: Ostrogoths

Colour: Purple

Techs: All Ancient, All Classical, Early Medieval

Religion: Pagan

Wonders: None

National Wonders: None

Large City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Barracks, Walls, Castle, Market, Pagan Buildings

Medium City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Barracks, Walls, Castle

Small City Buildings: Monument, Forge, Barracks

Large City Army: 2 Swordsmen, 1 Crossbowmen

Medium City Army: 1 Swordsmen, 1 Crossbowmen

Small City Army: 1 Crossbowmen

Exception Units: Extra Crossbowmen in Capital

Border Armies: Swordsmen at Byzantine and possibly kievan lands

City Religion Exceptions: Orthodoxy in lands near Byzantine

Improvements: Mostly Core area is improved with the percentage decreasing as distance gets farther from core

Roads:Roads work similar to the improvements starting off well connected in Core and getting worse as distance increases.

Hope this helps a bit. Will continue to catch up and then do 2 each day after catching up completely.

Awesome, I will work on the map straight away. I have a 4 day break now to catch up on it and have half term the week after next where i should finish it.

More questions:
1. Should Moors be Carthage Civ or Arabia civ? Arabia seems like a better choice due to camel archers but did the moors ever use camel archers?
2. Should Each civ have the Moai Statues national Wonder? and if so how do i know which city? just the one with most water tiles
3. The Byzantines imdediately switch to a democracy because of the Pyramids Wonder, should i just not put the Pyramid wonder in Memphis or should I add a modified Buildings XML that makes the pyramids give a free granary in each city or something?

I have been working on the Map, im up to the Kievan Rus now and still working.
Here is the map so far, Because of the stupid way The world Builder works i cant do units yet. please have a carefull look around and give feedback. 231372

Some notes are i changed the outline of greenland to resemble fjords and gave vikings 2 cities there. does that work? I also gave the vikings astronomy but that agin may be wrong. Im starting to think i may be making civs a bit too far behind techwise, Rome is the most advanced but has only just started the rennaisance itself.

Here is a little post from me I'll update it in a little bit when i finish the next few. Sorry about forgetting about the Granarys and Pikemen I knew i was forgetting some things. Here is a couple of answers to your questions.

1. The Moors should be Carthagian as they are the closest in relatives. Another reason is because the Carthagians were much more users of Horses then Camels(Camel Archers were not as often used since Horses were swifter and apparently stronger.)

2. I think they should go to most of the civs(Mabye not give them to the American civs or something.) and the placement could be random but i'd reccomend giving it to the cities with the most water tiles like you said.

3. If you can you might as well test it out to see how different the Byzantines are with having a free granary in every city does.

Here is 9 and 10

#9 The Saxons

Civilization: Saxons
Color: Grey
Techs:All Ancient, All Classical, Just starting Medieval?
Religion: Pagan/Catholicism
Wonders:None
National Wonders: Heroic and National Epic?
Large City Buildings: Granary, Barracks, Monument, Aqueduct, Lighthouse, Religious Buildings, Library, Forge, Market
Medium City Buildings: Granary, Barracks, Monument, Aqueduct, Library, Forge, Religious Temples and Monasteries, Market
Small City Buildings: Granary, Barracks, Monument, Aqueduct, Library, Forge, Religious Monastery.
Large City Army: 2 Axemen, 2 Swordsmen, 1 Archer
Medium City Army: 2 Archer, 2 Swordsmen
Small City Army: 2 Archer
Exception Units: Extra Swordsmen in Capital
Border Armies: Extra Swordsmen in Roman border or on the opposite side.
City Religion Exceptions: If Pagan then Catholicism in border cities vice versa if opposite.
Improvements: Core Saxon area more improved then border areas.


#10 The Swedes

Civilization: Sweden
Color: Light Blue
Techs: All Ancient, All Classical, early Medieval
Religion: Pagan
Wonders: None
National Wonders:Heroic and National Epic
Large City Buildings: Monument, Granary, Barracks, Harbor, Lighthouse, Pagan Buildings, Forge, Library, Market
Medium City Buildings:Monument, Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Pagan Temple and Monasteries, Market, Forge
Small City Buildings: Monument, Granary, Barracks, Pagan Temple, Market. Forge
Large City Army: 2 Berserkers?, 1 Longbowmen
Medium City Army: 2 Crossbowmen, 1 Berserker?
Small City Army: 1 Berserker?, 1 Crossbowmen
Exception Units: Extra Berserkers in Capital
Border Armies: Units like Swordsmen, Axemen, and Catapults near Finns
City Religion Exceptions: None

Its My Half Term now, so i should have the map done in the next few days.
Up to Golden Horde, so that is all of Europe, Africa and Middle East. The rest will basically be coopied off the 1500AD Map

232265

ITS DONE! May need to do a bit more (like add more units or boats or change techs a bit) but a Beta version is ready to upload to the Scenario's Download Forum.

Could you please post a link to the scenario?

Edit: Never mind, I found it. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=340767. Could you post it on the front page anyways, encase people do not know how to reach it?