Hey guys,

So I am really new to CivIV and all Civ games. I'm mainly focusing on peaceful playing for now...

I think I mainly have the essence of the game, but I have a few questions.

How long should I ideally take to build my second and third cities? on fast? normal? slow? and super slow game modes? Also, how many cities is too many for the first 2500 years?

when looking to found a new city (assuming not trying to block off an opponent) what are the priorities I am looking for in terms of building a city as quickly as possible. am I looking for hammers, coin or food. I realize there is a difference depending on what type of city I'm planning, but all cities need to be able to grow, build stuff at a decent pace, and produce income.

I have many more questions, but hopefully someone here can help me out so far.
I thank you in advance.

-Herrhals

Hey guys,

So I am really new to CivIV and all Civ games. I'm mainly focusing on peaceful playing for now...
Just make sure you've secured enough area for at least 6 cities on a standard map size.
when looking to found a new city (assuming not trying to block off an opponent) what are the priorities I am looking for in terms of building a city as quickly as possible. am I looking for hammers, coin or food. I realize there is a difference depending on what type of city I'm planning, but all cities need to be able to grow, build stuff at a decent pace, and produce income.
Prioritize food. Settle crap cities only for strategic reasons: block an AI, grab a resource, etc.
I have many more questions, but hopefully someone here can help me out so far.
I thank you in advance.
I started a walkthrough for the Noble difficulty. I haven't finished it yet, but it might help you. If you're interested, you can check it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=336026).

I don't know what to say about the specific dates to found new cities other than it depends. Feel free to post more questions.

when i first make a city, any city, should I spam farms first, then at level 3-4 build a mine pref over a rare resource?, then go from there?
and then later in the game (if the city has huge riverside plains) change the farms to cottages?

I'll let a better player than me answer that question.
Some rules of thumb,

Cottage as much as possible in capital to profit from buro.Capital has good production so it shouldn't be necessary to whip too often there.

Have +6 food in cities without much natural production. In this case infra can be whipped without too much pain, later these cities can work some plaintile workshops for production. Worst is those cities that have no food resource but lots of grasslands also on rivers and lakes. Cottaging all is criminal but i've seen it happen, begin by building 4 farms for +6 food, then work cottages. Even if your happy cap is at 6 it's right to play this way, you switch to cottages once you're there (or at pop 5 or so).

In production cities basically farm so you can work as much food decifit tiles (mines/workshops) as possible.

These rules are very general, if you're going for an early push around 1000 AD or so farm everything for more production either through whipping or workshops. Research comes from bulbing/specs/traderoutes in this case.

Also, I just wanted to add...

It's ok to mix strategies, but make sure that you finish what you start. If you decided to go for wonders, don't just start building settlers in between, because then you'll have to build defense units, etc... and in the end, you lose the wonders, and don't have as many cities as you would otherwise. If you decide to go to war, don't run the Pacifism civic but start building units insanely fast, switch to Theocracy or Vassalage and go all out into war. Don't do anything by half, because it will NOT work.

Also if you are new, experiment with World-builder a bit. I started out by adding all the national wonders to my first city and filling it with iron and corn. Then as I got better, I changed stuff around less and less. Now I VERY rarely add anything at all, but win most of the time. The only way adding WB stuff is cheating is when you then claim to everyone around that you won a Deity game at 3000 BC (just my point of view).

But then again, I am not a grizzled veteran of Civ IV, so don't take me entirely at my word. And don't be afraid to ask questions. You'll get answers. Sometimes even more than you hope for (Hence the fact that the favorite game speed thread now has what, 7 pages?) ;)

And don't be afraid to ask questions. You'll get answers. Sometimes even more than you hope for (Hence the fact that the favorite game speed thread now has what, 7 pages?) ;)

It's already 8 pages now. :D

Hey, I think I figured most of this out myself too thx.

another question: What determines how many votes you get from apostilic palace/UN? for instance last game I had 7 cities, Jaio had 10. I had double the population of anyone in the game (idk about his population) and he had 3x the votes than me. What determines number of votes?

as far as i remember it counts the number of citizens in each city, not the population

Oh yea? Let me go check the ratios...

mansa musa gets 62 votes, Jaio gets 68 and I get 35...
I have 4 more civ points that jaio and much more than mansa...


also whats the difference between full resident/apostolic resident and voting member?

Only cities with the AP religion in it will contribute votes.

I think you mean Resident, full member and voting member?

The resident is the one who have won the election. He must either be running the AP religion or have built the AP in his city.

A full member is a voting member who have the AP religion as his state religion. This means he can run for residency and diplo win.

A voting member is one who has the religion present in atleast one of his cities, but are not running the AP religion as state religion nor having built the AP. He cannot run for residency nor diplo win.

Only cities with the AP religion in it will contribute votes.

I think you mean Resident, full member and voting member?

The resident is the one who have won the election. He must either be running the AP religion or have built the AP in his city.

A full member is a voting member who have the AP religion as his state religion. This means he can run for residency and diplo win.

A voting member is one who has the religion present in atleast one of his cities, but are not running the AP religion as state religion nor having built the AP. He cannot run for residency nor diplo win.

ok, gotcha. that makes sense. Does it hurt a city's voting power if there is another religion present in the city?

ok, gotcha. that makes sense. Does it hurt a city's voting power if there is another religion present in the city?

No it does not.

Also not mentioned, but if you defy an AP resolution, you are reduced to a voting member even if you meet the conditions to be a full member. This lasts until you vote for a resolution that passes.

And something it took me a while to notice when i first started playing BtS: Religious buildings of the AP religion give +2 hammers to the city. This can be a significant boost and change your build order priorities. Works very well combined with the University of Sankore and/or Spiral Minaret wonders. Have all three and you can get +2 hammers, beakers and gold from temples and monasteries, in addition to thier regular benefits!

another question:

should I connect my cottages and mines and farms with roads? If they are not special resources, does it give you any benefits? Workers usually have something else to work on, but can come back and back fill later for the sake of completion.

second question:
Do research points overflow to the next technology? For example if I am researching AH and it has one turn left, but it's only a small sliver still to research, should I turn down the research slider to just before it takes 2 turns to gain some extra gold, or should I keep it maxed anyways, considering the lost research would be dumped into the next one?

-Herrhals

should I connect my cottages and mines and farms with roads? If they are not special resources, does it give you any benefits?

No benefit, so do that only at a low priority - faster to rebuild if they are pillaged or get destroyed by random events, plus after Railroad it's faster to railroad the mine tiles. Improve useful stuff first.


Do research points overflow to the next technology?

Yes.

also, with nothing else more pressing like mili techs or wonder techs, is it usually a sensible idea to beeline liberalism?

second,
for gameplay with big landmasses, with large oceans like fractal or continents or low sea level archi, what are the MAJOR techs and wonders I should beeline to? and in what order?

also, with nothing else more pressing like mili techs or wonder techs, is it usually a sensible idea to beeline liberalism?

Yes. In addition to giving a free tech to the first to discover it, it has very useful techs on the way (paper, education) and unlocks two powerful civics. You were asking about cottages? If many of them are mature, Free Speech will help alot, and Free Religion just helps in general, assuming you don't need to be religious for diplomatic reasons.

second,
for gameplay with big landmasses, with large oceans like fractal or continents or low sea level archi, what are the MAJOR techs and wonders I should beeline to? and in what order?

Beyond beelining liberalism, and strategies for doing so, and other guides telling you how to get Rifling and or Steel early so you can dominate with Riflemen and/or Cannons, the only wise answer you can get is "it depends." You map script is just one, very small, consideration in what you should research next.

And you should probably stop thinking in terms of "beelining wonders." Sure they are great and shiny and cool when you first start playing, but there are usually more effective things you could be researching/building. Wonders are fine and they have their place, but don't get obsessed with them. It is never the case that being beaten to a wonder by the AI lost the game for you, and if you have ever felt that way, you need to tone down the Wonder spamming. What may have lost the game for you is spending too may hammers on wonders and not enough on defense.

Yea, thank you. I know that wonder spamming is not the way to go most often. I'm just wondering, because I do not fully comprehend some of the game mechanics, if there are any 'super wonders' that I can not live with out?

Yea, thank you. I know that wonder spamming is not the way to go most often. I'm just wondering, because I do not fully comprehend some of the game mechanics, if there are any 'super wonders' that I can not live with out?

There are no wonders you cannot live without. That being said, there are some that are more popular than others, with good reason.

Pyramids:

Access to the representation civic in classical times can make a specialist heavy economy extremely powerful. There is also something to be said for early access to Hereditary rule and Police State. It also gives Great Engineering points, which are hard to come by until much later in the game. Note, this wonder is VERY expensive. If you can complete it first without being either Industrious or having access to stone in your first or second city, you are playing on too low a difficulty level.

The Oracle:

Cheapest wonder, cheaper than a settler if you have marble. The trick is waiting long enough for the free tech to be something good, without waiting so long you get beaten to completion. A popular choice is to take Code of Laws as your free tech, which has a good chance of also founding Confucianism. If you discover you are isolated or none of your immediate neighbors are interested in founding a religion, this may be your best chance at founding one.

The Great Light House:

How much this will help you depends on the percentage of your empire which is coastal cities. If that percentage is high, this can dramatically improve your commerce IFF you can get foreign trade routes.

The Great Library:

Two free scientists in a city that has enough food to run a specialists of its own will dramatically increase the emergence of great people. Put the National Epic in that city as well. Even more powerful for philosophical leaders. Easy to get because most AI leaders don't prioritize the tech proceeding it on the tree.

Apostolic Palace:

Very situational. The main thing is, you want it to built on your continent. It doesn't have to be you that builds it, as long as it is built on the same land mass as you. Build it if you think no one else on your continent is pursuing it.

The Sistine Chapel:

Maybe an exception to the "cannot live without" rule, depending on how you want to look at it. This wonder is somewhere between extremely important and essential for a Culture victory. It is one of the worst wonders otherwise.

The Statue of Liberty:

Powerful combined with Mercantilism and Representation to eek more juice out of a specialist driven economy right around the time specialists start loosing ground to other methods of generating beakers.

Broadway/Rock n' Roll/Hollywood:

Grabbing at least one of these is almost always worth it. All three is overkill. Also important for culture victories.

The Kremlin:

Depending on how your economy is set up, this wonder can save you a fortune.

The Space Elevator:

Another victory type dependent one. Very helpful for Space Race victories.

Sid's Sushi Corporate Headquarters:

This one is map script dependent, but on an archipelago or continents map, this is the best corporation, hands down.

And again, let me emphasis, if you can build all of these, you are playing too low a difficulty level and not learning skills that will make the next one easier.

Just make sure you've secured enough area for at least 6 cities on a standard map size.


I've also read this someplace else. Is that because with 6 cities, standard size map, after building 6 banks and 6 universities, you can build Wall Street and Oxford?

Can you win on Noble with only 6 cities, working max tiles? I am only asking because in my current game as Willem, 3 continents, 6 Civs, Noble, I ended up on a continent with Ramseese II. He was expanding like crazy and at close to 1AD, I had 5 cities and was working on a settler to get a sixth. I'm very slow at expanding, one of my faults I guess, because I focus on developing the cities I have, and I don't want to fall behind in the tech race by expanding too quickly and have my slider go down under 50%.

So I reach the medieval era, build cats, spearmen (for his war chariots) and maceman and invaded him. He had like 11 cities, but they were all under-developed. He hardly had any units (as per the BUG mode, the ratio was 1.8 in my favour). I no time at all I had the continent to myself.

So would it have been just as good to get 6 or 7 cities and work the max tiles, use specialist and win the game, either by diplomacy or culture? Land is power and I understand that. But if you have 15 cities, and 6 of them are crap, 2 of them are so-so, 7 are good cities, wouldn't you waste time looking after the 8 below average cities, when you could grow the 7 great cities?

Sorry if I highjacked the thread but I think the number of cities is a key component in Civ.

So would it have been just as good to get 6 or 7 cities and work the max tiles, use specialist and win the game, either by diplomacy or culture? Land is power and I understand that. But if you have 15 cities, and 6 of them are crap, 2 of them are so-so, 7 are good cities, wouldn't you waste time looking after the 8 below average cities, when you could grow the 7 great cities?

If a city has a maintenance cost of X, and it can produce X+1 commerce a turn, it is worth having. Never underestimate the value of land; it is the only thing they aren't making more of.

That crappy city may be important if you want a diplo win. Individual votes based on population, remember. Sure, you can't vote yourself in, but having more still helps.

(My humble opinion)

5 wonders you absolutely HAVE to have:
1) The Oracle. Pretty good culture benefits, and the GP points are towards a Prophet, who can a) make shrines, and b) Is a very nice specialist choice.
2) The Pyramids OR Hanging Gardens. I usually try to build them both purely for the Great Engineer points, which help me get even more wonders. I often build National Epic and the Hagia Sophia in the city which has one of these.
3) The Great Library. Reasons already listed.
4) Notre Dame. Don't turn your nose up at +1 happy in each city, that can mean up to 10 more population points.
5) Three Gorges Dam. Power in each city.

And situational (just 3)
1) Stonehenge. I build this ONLY if I am not playing as a 'Creative' civ. It is so much bother expanding borders without any base culture already present. Stonehenge fixes that.
2) Great Lighthouse OR Colossus. Useful for a coastal, island, or heavy trading empire, otherwise... nice, but not essential.
3) Versailles. A must-have for the colonial/extensive empire, but if you're fairly compact, it's just easier to re-build your palace in the center of your empire.

If a city has a maintenance cost of X, and it can produce X+1 commerce a turn, it is worth having.

Not strictly true, as every city owned raises the maintenance of all other cities.


(My humble opinion)

5 wonders you absolutely HAVE to have:
1) The Oracle. Pretty good culture benefits, and the GP points are towards a Prophet, who can a) make shrines, and b) Is a very nice specialist choice.
2) The Pyramids OR Hanging Gardens. I usually try to build them both purely for the Great Engineer points, which help me get even more wonders. I often build National Epic and the Hagia Sophia in the city which has one of these.
3) The Great Library. Reasons already listed.
4) Notre Dame. Don't turn your nose up at +1 happy in each city, that can mean up to 10 more population points.
5) Three Gorges Dam. Power in each city.

And situational (just 3)
1) Stonehenge. I build this ONLY if I am not playing as a 'Creative' civ. It is so much bother expanding borders without any base culture already present. Stonehenge fixes that.
2) Great Lighthouse OR Colossus. Useful for a coastal, island, or heavy trading empire, otherwise... nice, but not essential.
3) Versailles. A must-have for the colonial/extensive empire, but if you're fairly compact, it's just easier to re-build your palace in the center of your empire.


Damn, with a list like that all you will be doing is chase wonders for the first third of the game... Not to mention on most difficulty levels it's very hard to get Stonehenge AND Oracle AND 'Mids/HG AND TGL, not to mention GLH. And building 'Mids purely for the GE bonus? :eek:

My advice to those who wish to improve their game: if you are building some certain wonder in every game, stop building it altogether for at least 10 games and see where that takes you. No world wonder is vital or even beneficial (beaker&hammer investments considered) in every game.

To emulate you from another thread Silu - Holy Hammer Sink Batman!

That list of wonders you *must* have is longer than the list of world wonders I think about building after I see the map most of the time.

The thing is, I always play as Catherine or Louis, and they both start out in similar places on the levels that I play (Monarch, Huge, Temperate, 8 opponents.) Contrary to popular opinion, some starting places are NOT random. Cathy always in a place that guarantees that I will have a stone resource in my second city, and often marble in my first one. Louis is Industrious, so he builds wonders 50% faster. And yeah, he also starts near stone or marble.

I always chase quite a few wonders with my first 3 cities, and it works great. I rarely ever lose on Monarch, and when I do, it's because I face four different civs in arms, which I think would be tough even on Noble without having built any wonders. I don't need too many cities until Optics or so, and then I simply make a colonial empire. But up to about 1000 AD, I have no more than 6/7 cities. Again, this works great. I usually end up with 60% of the world's wonders.

I know you didn't ask about this, but the thread title compels me to state: workers and siege units, build them early and often.

My starting strategy (works on Emperor for me):
The first thing I make is almost amways a worker (only when it is a city with lots of water i may first make a workboat),
and I research for mining/bronze working (again when there is no forest I may first research agriculture/animal husbrandery).
When the worker is done, I let him improve 1 tile (if possible) and then let him chop forest. And I build a settler.
When my settler is being made, i Research Mysticism. When he's ready I send him to make a city and start Stonehenge in my first city (unless the city production sucks).
In technology, I build then some worker techs and iron working if there is no copper or I play as Roman.
After Stonehenge i prepare for war in both of my cities (axemans or swordsman)
In technology: Meditation/Prietshood (here i buld oracle in my first or second city) /writing
When I have enough units I declear war
If oracle done: Code of Laws, and i build courthouse in my old cities and newly conquered cities
Then I research for catapults, then for maceman, then for trebutched.
And from this point i spam units until i win the game

The axe of doom wonder is always a good choice.

Three Gorges is totally overrated. It's way too expensive for what it does, unless you have no coal and can't trade for it. The Great Library is the only world wonder that I try build in most of my games, as it gives 3 GS sources to a city by itself and really helps for liberalism.

I'd concentrate on getting your national wonders built quickly rather than building world wonders. The National Epic, Heroic Epic (if available), Oxford, and Globe are all very powerful and you want them running early.

(My humble opinion)

5 wonders you absolutely HAVE to have:
1) The Oracle. Pretty good culture benefits, and the GP points are towards a Prophet, who can a) make shrines, and b) Is a very nice specialist choice.
2) The Pyramids OR Hanging Gardens. I usually try to build them both purely for the Great Engineer points, which help me get even more wonders. I often build National Epic and the Hagia Sophia in the city which has one of these.
3) The Great Library. Reasons already listed.
4) Notre Dame. Don't turn your nose up at +1 happy in each city, that can mean up to 10 more population points.
5) Three Gorges Dam. Power in each city.

And situational (just 3)
1) Stonehenge. I build this ONLY if I am not playing as a 'Creative' civ. It is so much bother expanding borders without any base culture already present. Stonehenge fixes that.
2) Great Lighthouse OR Colossus. Useful for a coastal, island, or heavy trading empire, otherwise... nice, but not essential.
3) Versailles. A must-have for the colonial/extensive empire, but if you're fairly compact, it's just easier to re-build your palace in the center of your empire.

Not to bug the list but here the real good wonders are: The Pyramids (but for representation not the great engineer points), and the The Great Lighthouse ++The Great library (for the lib race and it's very important deny).

Notre Dame is absolutely useless for what it is and the price, you have the forbidden palace and state property if you have issues w/ the expenses. The three gorges dam is good on paper but it comes so late and it costs too much to build and meanwhile all your cities will lack power. If you dont have coal you are screwed since your Ironworks city (the prime target to build the wonder) is sorta useless as well.

Most of the wonders are situational and not a big deal to miss. They have their uses and mass-denying wonders does help making very high level AIs (incl deity) look dumb.

Another question.
If I am playing on noble and the population victory is at 38% or so. I am .65% away from that. If I reach that point will I have to declare victory and move on, or can I keep playing and get the other victories? also, does that victory % increase with difficulty level?

2nd question, do you build the space ship parts in all the same city, or can they be built seperately?

thx

Once you reach victory conditions, the game automatically declares you the victor, but you can continue playing. However, it will not award any additional wins for that game. I don't think the difficulty level alters victory conditions... after all the AI is subject to the same conditions.

You can build parts in parallel.

what does it mean to build parts in parallel? Different cities are ok?

Also, can you give me the most efficient criteria to make a GP farm city?

I'm assuming it should be a big farm city, with a load of food special resources to supply the population. What are the essential buildings? national/world wonders ideal?
When all is said and done, what is a good GP rate to have? range?

thx.
Herrhals

A GP farm for me is usually a flood plains city with a few plains hills nearby. Even if there are no strategic resources, mined plains hills give 4 hammers each. Get about 5/6 of those, you can have a decent productive city which also grows like crazy. You'd want to build things like Libraries and Temples in there. When you select what to build, look at what specialists the building enables (ex. Temple says 'Can turn one citizen into Priest'.) A good idea would be to go for the Great Library in such a city, because then you're running about 5 scientist specialists in that city. That could easily be 25-30 GP points per turn. The hard part is finding a balanced city. Too much food means too little production, so you'lll have a city with a huge population, but little buildings, which can lead to unrest and illness as well as not granting GP points. Too much production, and yeah, you'll have a lot of buildings, but you won't be able to spare too much food.

It's not bad to have National Epic in that type of city, but 2 things stop me. 1) Almost all the national wonders provide Great Artist points, and I consider Great Artists to be almost entirely useless. Having even 1 artist in a city can 'taint' your GP pool. Also, I personally prefer to have Engineers over anything else, so I build the NE in a city with the 'mids or Hanging Gardens. That way, I get about the same amount of GP points per turn in each city, and I alternate Scientist/Engineer with a few random ones from other cities thrown in.

There is another type of GP farm, and that is the Wonder farm, but that is hard to get. Only if your city (and it has to be one of your 3-4 first cities) has insane production with good food sources (IE Iron and Copper hills with Grassland Cattle and Corn. Happened once for me, but it's rare to find something like that early in the game) should you go for wonders. Even then, you'd be going only for wonders, practically without building other essential structures like Barracks and Granaries. This type of farm is effective, but risky.

Hope this helps.

as far as i remember it counts the number of citizens in each city, not the population

Is there a way you can see the number of citizen a Civ has before you build the UN? When you say citizen, you mean population points correct? So if I decide to build the UN, how do I figure out who I would be up against? Is it just as simply as scrolling the map, looking at all the cities and adding up the numbers beside the cities' names? I use the BUG so is there a feature in this?

Is there a way you can see the number of citizen a Civ has before you build the UN? When you say citizen, you mean population points correct? So if I decide to build the UN, how do I figure out who I would be up against? Is it just as simply as scrolling the map, looking at all the cities and adding up the numbers beside the cities' names? I use the BUG so is there a feature in this?

Idk about BUG whatever. but I do know that to check population, you click on one of the right most buttons in the "advisors" toolbar. There will be a tab that says "demographics". the information on the other tabs are useful as well.

A question that didnt get answered is what does parallel ship building mean? different cities ok?

Is there a way you can see the number of citizen a Civ has before you build the UN? When you say citizen, you mean population points correct? So if I decide to build the UN, how do I figure out who I would be up against? Is it just as simply as scrolling the map, looking at all the cities and adding up the numbers beside the cities' names? I use the BUG so is there a feature in this?

In demografics (by stats upper richt corner) you can see your population, and the average of the other civs. When you play domination victory on, you can go to victory conditions and see by the domination part how much procent of world population you have, and how much your biggest rival has (so you can see who that is). If you want the population in a city, you go to the city screen and mouse over your pop number.

EDIT: you can build space parts in different cities (and its reccomended)

I dont think theres one single wonder that i build in every game as a rule, it depends on resources available, map, early tech path, and how the game pans out, if the situation is right i would try to pick up one or more of the following wonders.

1) Pyramids
2) Oracle
3) GLH
4) Grat Library
5) Colosuss
6) Parthenon

In addition to these SH and GW are pretty good but i dont rate them the same.

I usually cant afford to build too many wonders so i have to make choices on which ones i would aim for. Mids are expensive for an early wonder and i only go for them if i have stone.

GPF sites depend on whether you are playing BTS or Vanilla/Warlords. In BTS you probably want a site with 1 to 2 decent food and maybe a farm and lots of trees for forest preserves (free specialist with national park.) In Vanilla/Warlords you probably need 2 real good foods and 2 farming tiles to generate specialists. My usual GPF has library, great library and national epic and generates wads of scientists.